Author Topic: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022  (Read 32396 times)

yellowcard

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #525 on: April 25, 2022, 11:01:11 AM »
Much talk about Armagh being poor tacklers and blaming Geezer. Now undoubtedly he could help improve the situation but I have been saying for years that the way football is refereed in the county doesn't help. Many of the frees given today wouldn't be given at an under 15 game in Armagh. In the minor match last night I think Armagh got 6 cards to Derry's 0 and a high proportion of the frees given were against Armagh. It seems to be a trend.

McGeeney has come out numerous times over the last decade with absolute guff on the tackle.
 
He's seems completely unable to grasp that the tackle has to be aimed at the ball as opposed to the man.

A better manager would have figured out years ago that his approach to the tackle was out of whack with the general consensus as to what is a legitimate tackle and changed things but McGeeney has just buried his head in the sand on this.

Armagh had plenty of problems yesterday but tackling was certainly not near the top of the list so I'm surprised to see this being brought up again. Players like Morgan and McCabe have been fouling machines in the past but have noticeably cut this out of their game this year. Much bigger issues were the kick out malfunction, midfield problems and the lack of a kicking game against a side who are masters of running football.   

balladmaker

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #526 on: April 25, 2022, 11:16:25 AM »
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....

Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.

Armagh need to be hard on themselves after yesterday's showing.  Big name players didn't show, management found to be technically wanting ... everyone knew Donegal would push up on the Armagh kickout and we couldn't handle it.  Armagh not pushing up on the Donegal kickout in the first half was hard to believe.  All in all, best team by a mile won on the day.  Armagh v Mayo looks to be nailed on for the Qualifiers.

Itchy

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #527 on: April 25, 2022, 11:22:10 AM »
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.

I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.

yellowcard

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #528 on: April 25, 2022, 11:45:03 AM »
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.

I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.

Yes, the disallowed goal. The problem was that it didn't clearly show anything. Even Sean Cavanagh said that it was inconclusive while Oisin McConville and Peter Canavan both said it should have stood on BBC with Martin McHugh. So definitely not clear cut. 

Gael80

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #529 on: April 25, 2022, 11:46:22 AM »
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....

Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.

Armagh need to be hard on themselves after yesterday's showing.  Big name players didn't show, management found to be technically wanting ... everyone knew Donegal would push up on the Armagh kickout and we couldn't handle it.  Armagh not pushing up on the Donegal kickout in the first half was hard to believe.  All in all, best team by a mile won on the day.  Armagh v Mayo looks to be nailed on for the Qualifiers.

To be fair these are amateur players giving a huge committment to represent their county, I don't think any of them, should be hard on themselves. It is a game of football that went wrong, there is a lot to learn if they want to be successful, but I'm sure they know that themselves.

My point was yes tactically they got it wrong, but Donegal play Ballybofey very well and the small tight pitch suited their tactics. I'm sure Armagh are disappointed but they didn't lose to a Division 4 team, they came up against a home team with an unbelievable record in Ballybofey.

twohands!!!

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #530 on: April 25, 2022, 12:18:43 PM »
Much talk about Armagh being poor tacklers and blaming Geezer. Now undoubtedly he could help improve the situation but I have been saying for years that the way football is refereed in the county doesn't help. Many of the frees given today wouldn't be given at an under 15 game in Armagh. In the minor match last night I think Armagh got 6 cards to Derry's 0 and a high proportion of the frees given were against Armagh. It seems to be a trend.

McGeeney has come out numerous times over the last decade with absolute guff on the tackle.
 
He's seems completely unable to grasp that the tackle has to be aimed at the ball as opposed to the man.

A better manager would have figured out years ago that his approach to the tackle was out of whack with the general consensus as to what is a legitimate tackle and changed things but McGeeney has just buried his head in the sand on this.

Armagh had plenty of problems yesterday but tackling was certainly not near the top of the list so I'm surprised to see this being brought up again. Players like Morgan and McCabe have been fouling machines in the past but have noticeably cut this out of their game this year. Much bigger issues were the kick out malfunction, midfield problems and the lack of a kicking game against a side who are masters of running football.

Based on the link below the free count was Armagh 19 frees conceded Donegal 5 frees conceded.

https://twitter.com/gaa_statsman/status/1518242911556673536/photo/1

I was surprised a bit by those numbers when I saw them. I knew Armagh had been fouling more but I didn't think Armagh had been that bad and I didn't think that Donegal had been that good.

Armagh might be able to quibble on a few of the frees but most people would have said the ref got the vast majority of his calls correct.

If people don't think that allowing the opposition 14 more frees isn't handing them a serious advantage in terms of winning a game, I don't know where to begin.

Other relevant stats
Donegal won 19 out of 23 of their own kickouts.
Armagh won 15 out of 25 of their own kickouts.

Overal Donegal won 29 kickouts to Armagh's 19

Donegal were 17 from 31 in overall shots scored 54%
From play 12 from 24 50%
From deadballs 5 from 7

Armagh were 12 from 28
From play 9 from 23 39%
From deadballs 3 from 5

Armamike

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #531 on: April 25, 2022, 12:21:05 PM »
The problem for us is that whether it's Div 1 or Div 3 teams we play in the Ulster championship we've found it very hard to get a win during Kieran's time and before.  It's not just the top sides in Ulster we've struggled to beat.  The truth is we haven't been blessed with great talent coming through from underage so the management have to get the team playing at a level more than the sum of their parts. Maybe it's not just in this bunch but the most disappointing thing for me during Kieran's time is the ease with which we've been beaten over the years.  We should be at least competitive.
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J70

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #532 on: April 25, 2022, 12:26:36 PM »
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....

Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.

Think people are going a bit over the top with the Ballybofey thing.

Donegal's unbeaten run there has coincided with them having a top six team most of the time, with a backbone of the likes of Murphy, Lacey, Neil McGee, Neil Gallagher etc.

We've been mostly amongst the top two in Ulster and most of the teams we've played in champsionship in Ballybofey during that period have been from Ulster.

We've still managed to lose to Tyrone in 2018 in the Super 8s, and we never faced a Kerry or Dublin or, our nemesis, Mayo, in Ballybofey.

Murphy will be gone in a few years. While we'll always be hard to beat there (what Division 1 team is easy to beat in their home ground, Galway against Mayo excepted?!), I don't think the run that started again in 2019 will last as long as the previous one. Especially if we fade back into the Ulster pack for a few years.

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #533 on: April 25, 2022, 12:36:43 PM »
Well that was a heartening performance after a so-so league. Thoroughly deserved win for our boys on the day. Completely won the midfield battle, even if I was a bit worried at half time with all those poor misses (in fairness the conditions must have been a big factor with Armagh’s similar misses in the second).  Great games from Murphy, McGee, Shane O’Donnell, Mogan, McHugh, Ban etc.

Will need to bring that intensity and competitiveness to the Cavan game. They ate us alive in that final two years ago. At least we’ll be going in prepared this time.

Is there a more riveting sight in GAA than seeing a player like Ban Gallagher turn on the afterburners like Jack McCaffrey and Michael Donnellan used to do?


On the disallowed goal, are you allowed to strip the ball out of the keeper’s hands?

Totally agree, Ban Gallagher absolutely brilliant footballer. Power, pace and made serious incisions straight through the middle of Armagh yesterday.

keeperlit

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #534 on: April 25, 2022, 12:46:04 PM »
Just to clear up a few points...I did say 9 outta 10 refs will give a free out and that's what happened, not complaining about it at all.
As for KMcG keeping his job...not my decision but what i will say is bar a couple of players on starting 15 we don't have any other talent in the County. As for tactics you're prob correct, he should have had a better game plan but in general terms the best team with best players usually win and that's what happened yesterday.
The tackling etc...my previous post was not based on Armagh game yesterday, it was a general observation of our games in general where a player lifts his legs and falls and gets a free straight away.

Sorry,  but there is players equally as good if not better in the county that are not involved and they are bigger physically. If two players have the exact same talent set but one is 5’ 2 and the other is 6’ which of these players should you persevere with? It seems to me Kieran has persevered with the wrong type of players, has tried to make defenders out of forwards and doesn’t want any players on that can think for themselves ie Robots.
There is a serious problem with the coaching in our county across all age grades and has been for a number of years.

Armagh18

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #535 on: April 25, 2022, 12:55:16 PM »
Just to clear up a few points...I did say 9 outta 10 refs will give a free out and that's what happened, not complaining about it at all.
As for KMcG keeping his job...not my decision but what i will say is bar a couple of players on starting 15 we don't have any other talent in the County. As for tactics you're prob correct, he should have had a better game plan but in general terms the best team with best players usually win and that's what happened yesterday.
The tackling etc...my previous post was not based on Armagh game yesterday, it was a general observation of our games in general where a player lifts his legs and falls and gets a free straight away.

Sorry,  but there is players equally as good if not better in the county that are not involved and they are bigger physically. If two players have the exact same talent set but one is 5’ 2 and the other is 6’ which of these players should you persevere with? It seems to me Kieran has persevered with the wrong type of players, has tried to make defenders out of forwards and doesn’t want any players on that can think for themselves ie Robots.
There is a serious problem with the coaching in our county across all age grades and has been for a number of years.
Please name them? Any idea why they aren’t involved?

yellowcard

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #536 on: April 25, 2022, 01:15:05 PM »
Just to clear up a few points...I did say 9 outta 10 refs will give a free out and that's what happened, not complaining about it at all.
As for KMcG keeping his job...not my decision but what i will say is bar a couple of players on starting 15 we don't have any other talent in the County. As for tactics you're prob correct, he should have had a better game plan but in general terms the best team with best players usually win and that's what happened yesterday.
The tackling etc...my previous post was not based on Armagh game yesterday, it was a general observation of our games in general where a player lifts his legs and falls and gets a free straight away.

Sorry,  but there is players equally as good if not better in the county that are not involved and they are bigger physically. If two players have the exact same talent set but one is 5’ 2 and the other is 6’ which of these players should you persevere with? It seems to me Kieran has persevered with the wrong type of players, has tried to make defenders out of forwards and doesn’t want any players on that can think for themselves ie Robots.
There is a serious problem with the coaching in our county across all age grades and has been for a number of years.

I agree with you on the latter point in terms of good underage players coming through the system. I think it must be over a decade since Armagh reached a provincial final at either U17/18/20/21 level which is a shocking record. Also whilst the club championship is a lot more competitive it is probably only because the standard has levelled out following Crossmaglens dominance. So there is most certainly not a production line of talented players coming through.

McGeeney has had 8 years which is a long time in any top job but we also need to be careful what we wish for. You only have to look at the mess that Down football have found themselves in at senior level and the problems they have in convincing players to commit. Bar Jamie Clarke who is probably finished with gaelic football now anyway and possibly Heffron from Clann Eireann there aren't many others within the county that jump out as being county level. That's not to say that there aren't some unhidden talents that are worthy of a chance.   

Ed Ricketts

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #537 on: April 25, 2022, 01:26:48 PM »
There aren't any club footballers in Armagh who could come in and significantly improve the county team. Maybe a few panel members could be swapped out, but that's the same in every county.

This is the thing with McGeeney.

He has always been weak on the line, right back to his time with Kildare. Some of the stuff Armagh do on the pitch is just daft. They make a lot of very similar mistakes game after game, year after year. Problems with simple fixes are frequently left fester. Much of it is very self defeating, and so is particularly painful for supporters to endure.

But McGeeney also has the complete loyalty of his players. Armagh pretty much get the best in the county into an orange jersey, something that stymies most counties outside of those with a shot at Sam. Many of these players do make marked improvements with the longer they spend under his tutelage - he seems to be able to mould decent county level players out of men that were not expected to reach that standard. And it can't be forgotten that Armagh have been woeful at underage level for over a decade now. The club scene is weak too. There are systemic problems with player development in the county. It is against this backdrop that the manager is trying to succeed.

Maybe someone else comes in and tidies things up and the current bunch push on, but for me it's just as likely that the whole show would fall into a heap.
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Gael80

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #538 on: April 25, 2022, 01:38:31 PM »
Donegal took their punishment re suspensions, focused on the task at hand. Armagh spent too much time on trying to get men off on technicalities etc, surely this distracted them to a degree? Or Donegal, especially at Ballybofey were just much better....

Probably a bit of both, but in hindsight a lot of pundits underestimated the Ballybofey factor. I think Kerry will win the All Ireland, but would probably have an almighty fight to win a championship game in Ballybofey, so I wouldn't be too hard on an Armagh team still learning how to compete at the top of the game.

Think people are going a bit over the top with the Ballybofey thing.

Donegal's unbeaten run there has coincided with them having a top six team most of the time, with a backbone of the likes of Murphy, Lacey, Neil McGee, Neil Gallagher etc.

We've been mostly amongst the top two in Ulster and most of the teams we've played in champsionship in Ballybofey during that period have been from Ulster.

We've still managed to lose to Tyrone in 2018 in the Super 8s, and we never faced a Kerry or Dublin or, our nemesis, Mayo, in Ballybofey.

Murphy will be gone in a few years. While we'll always be hard to beat there (what Division 1 team is easy to beat in their home ground, Galway against Mayo excepted?!), I don't think the run that started again in 2019 will last as long as the previous one. Especially if we fade back into the Ulster pack for a few years.

Good points, but I don't think we'll see that type of Donegal performance outside of Ballybofey, and that's where the problem will ultimately be in terms of Donegal achieving their aims - Ulster or All Ireland title.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022
« Reply #539 on: April 25, 2022, 01:55:52 PM »
Having watched the penalty incident again on TV last night it is very hard to see what the foul was for. Even if there had been VAR in place it would still had been very difficult to make a conclusive decision either way, so it looked like the referee simply copped out and blew for a foul to save any controversy. It was a huge momentum swinger as once Donegal had weathered the initial storm after half time they controlled the rest of the game.

I assume you mean the disallowed goal rather than penalty incident? The replay on the Sunday Game clearly show the keeper on his knees with the ball in his grasp. It was pulled out of his grasp. Its a clear free, i dont know what the confusion is unless you dont know the rules of the game.

Yes, the disallowed goal. The problem was that it didn't clearly show anything. Even Sean Cavanagh said that it was inconclusive while Oisin McConville and Peter Canavan both said it should have stood on BBC with Martin McHugh. So definitely not clear cut.

I had to laugh at Oisin complaining about the fitness of the referees, the ref was standing on the D where did he want him to be? up in the small square? Oisin was standing 100 meters away but could see clearly that the goal should have stood! amazing eyesight..

Ball ripped out of hands whistle went I think at that point, I would be 50/50 on the throw ball part as the ball might not have been in 'proper' possession so 'palming' it in is ok, if it was deemed not in full possession
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