Donegal vs Armagh Ulster Championship 2022

[David McKeown]

Did we ever hear the reasons the Tyrone players were banned? That was a right while ago.

I imagine counties were given this info.

Contributing to a melee.

I can't see a referee having the balls to do the same thing in a championship match if I'm honest so this is going to lead to accusations of bias.
The GAA need to be telling refs, this is the way we are moving forward and if they do that and we consistently see the same actions then so be it. But I just can't see it happening again the likes of Dublin and Kerry.
What happened in the Tyrone Armagh game happens a few times a year.
Also why is it not a simple 1 game ban for a sub entering the field during a melee regardless of whether they were breaking it up or doing nothing. You always find things escalate to another level when someone off field gets involved. I'd be happy for the GAA to hammer home on that.

Ok but whats a melee in your example?

3 or more players wrestling/fighting?

But we have seen it to be two people before in the hurling

[David McKeown]

This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.

It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said

But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify

Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy  alive and well.

O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.

I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.

Its simple. Team penalties.

Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.

Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.

No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.

Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.

And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?

The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.

In the modern age there is no excuse for every county ground not having a number of fixed cameras to capture all the off the ball stuff if and I stress if the GAA are serious about trying to reduce or eliminate it.

[Wildweasel74]

I start with a £10k fine for subs entering the field of play during a, skirmish, double it for bck room teams. O'neill shouldnt got off simple, technicality as far as I am aware. But the entire skirmish should been reviewed, players/ staff with no numbers identified and either banned or fined. How the Donegal sub keeper got of scot free a total mystery

[J70]

This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.

It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said

But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify

Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy  alive and well.

O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.

I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.

Its simple. Team penalties.

Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.

Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.

No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.

Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.

And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?

The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.

In the modern age there is no excuse for every county ground not having a number of fixed cameras to capture all the off the ball stuff if and I stress if the GAA are serious about trying to reduce or eliminate it.

Maybe so, but what about clubs games, underage games?

This stuff happens in those games also. Sometimes with spectators joining in.

[balladmaker]

I start with a £10k fine for subs entering the field of play during a, skirmish, double it for bck room teams. O'neill shouldnt got off simple, technicality as far as I am aware. But the entire skirmish should been reviewed, players/ staff with no numbers identified and either banned or fined. How the Donegal sub keeper got of scot free a total mystery

Bottom line it needs hit on the head.  The introduction of neck chokes and head rolls needs sorted and punished severely ... I already see it seeping out of the county game with kids trying to mimic it ... had to intervene as my son tried the same manoeuvre during an altercation with his sister last night 

[David McKeown]

I start with a £10k fine for subs entering the field of play during a, skirmish, double it for bck room teams. O'neill shouldnt got off simple, technicality as far as I am aware. But the entire skirmish should been reviewed, players/ staff with no numbers identified and either banned or fined. How the Donegal sub keeper got of scot free a total mystery

From what I saw it wasnt a clear strike, his body position and movement doesnt suggest he was trying to strike anyone either so it really isnt simple.

[David McKeown]

This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.

It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said

But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify

Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy  alive and well.

O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.

I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.

Its simple. Team penalties.

Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.

Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.

No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.

Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.

And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?

The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.

In the modern age there is no excuse for every county ground not having a number of fixed cameras to capture all the off the ball stuff if and I stress if the GAA are serious about trying to reduce or eliminate it.

Maybe so, but what about clubs games, underage games?

This stuff happens in those games also. Sometimes with spectators joining in.

We cant have the same resources in place at all games thats not workable and we dont do it presently with games having anywhere between 1 and 8 or 9 officials depending on the level of the game.  A lack of resources at lower levels is not an excuse to not use available resources at higher levels.

If the plan is to eradicate what some here are complaining about then a fair and consistent approach should be taken at all levels.  Cherry picking individual incidents with a haphazard and inconsistent approach will only lead to injustice.  There is no excuse for the GAA not to have the following in place.

A well written and well defined rule book
Cameras at intercounty grounds controlled by the GAA and not the host broadcaster or participating counties.
A clear and transparent disciplinary structure which can be easily, correctly and fairly implemented.
Well trained officials who know how the system is to operate.

The farces we have seen in recent years really do beggar belief for me.

Once you have those things in place you can teak punishment and sanctions until you arrived at the desired result

[tyrone08]

One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.

[J70]

This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.

It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said

But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify

Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy  alive and well.

O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.

I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.

Its simple. Team penalties.

Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.

Whole fuss being made over nothing tbh, it's not that big of a deal better to simply move on.

No big deal until someone gets their jaw broken or something and no one can identify who did it because both teams threw everyone into the row.

Very few games have multiple camera angles which allow all of the guilty to be weeded out.

And that's at senior county level. What about all the other levels of the game?

The GAA community is far too tolerant and indulgent of violence in my opinion.

In the modern age there is no excuse for every county ground not having a number of fixed cameras to capture all the off the ball stuff if and I stress if the GAA are serious about trying to reduce or eliminate it.

Maybe so, but what about clubs games, underage games?

This stuff happens in those games also. Sometimes with spectators joining in.

We cant have the same resources in place at all games thats not workable and we dont do it presently with games having anywhere between 1 and 8 or 9 officials depending on the level of the game.  A lack of resources at lower levels is not an excuse to not use available resources at higher levels.

If the plan is to eradicate what some here are complaining about then a fair and consistent approach should be taken at all levels.  Cherry picking individual incidents with a haphazard and inconsistent approach will only lead to injustice.  There is no excuse for the GAA not to have the following in place.

A well written and well defined rule book
Cameras at intercounty grounds controlled by the GAA and not the host broadcaster or participating counties.
A clear and transparent disciplinary structure which can be easily, correctly and fairly implemented.
Well trained officials who know how the system is to operate.

The farces we have seen in recent years really do beggar belief for me.

Once you have those things in place you can teak punishment and sanctions until you arrived at the desired result

Very sensible, and I agree with all that.

My point is more that punishments that don't rely completely on the off-chance that a camera happens to catch the offender(s) CAN be implemented at all levels of the game.

All-in melees - punish the team. f**k splitting hairs as to whether sub-A ran onto the field or the rest of the on-field team ran in to try to break it up or have a go themselves. If the referee sees anyone else getting involved apart from the two lads who initially squared up, then penalize the team, end of story.

It will take a while, and there'll be plenty of howling the first few times, but the message will get through.

[J70]

One sure thing is that the gaa are definitely amature when it comes to enforcing rules or applying consistency.

Indeed, this is one area where amateurism does not do the GAA any favours.

[ck]

O'Neill got off on a technicality (not an official GAA video) and Murphy and Grugan weren't even cited as it wasn't on camera. Armagh have received the heavier punishment by far here.
To try and pick out culprits from a melee based on video footage is never going to deliver genuine justice. A melee should mean suspensions (where the culprits are clear) and where they're not then a team punishment should be enforced. Eg: 0-3 down at start of next game, manager banished from touchline, no substitutes allowed in next game, loose next home game and play at away venue instead. Maybe a combination of these.

The GAA are not good in this area and need to catch a grip on discipline especially these half baked rows of headlocks and holding each others jerseys etc. Genuine punishment is the only way to end it.

[Gael80]

O'Neill got off on a technicality (not an official GAA video) and Murphy and Grugan weren't even cited as it wasn't on camera. Armagh have received the heavier punishment by far here.
To try and pick out culprits from a melee based on video footage is never going to deliver genuine justice. A melee should mean suspensions (where the culprits are clear) and where they're not then a team punishment should be enforced. Eg: 0-3 down at start of next game, manager banished from touchline, no substitutes allowed in next game, loose next home game and play at away venue instead. Maybe a combination of these.

The GAA are not good in this area and need to catch a grip on discipline especially these half baked rows of headlocks and holding each others jerseys etc. Genuine punishment is the only way to end it.

Agree, I've no doubt the media coverage post match, and the narrative pinned on Armagh led to such a rush to get more cited or suspended they didn't manage to follow procedure.

It sounds like Armagh's representatives easily won the O'Neill appeal, which says a lot about the CCCC in my opinion.

Hopefully everyone moves onto football now, and every team entering the championship is treated with the same consistency. If the media do decide to highlight a certain team, more than others the hope is CCCC will take a step back, assess everything that needs assessing and then use their procedures if required, instead of rushing to what the media thinks happened which time will show was a rushed, reactive intervention to begin with.

[LCohen]

Geezer has played a blinder in the background.

What does this mean?

He kept his cards close to his chest by not commenting publicly on the incident in the media which I had wondered whether was the right approach at the time. But he knew what he was doing and got the O'Neill suspension overturned and that at least gives Armagh a chance.

Hopefully the other 3 lads can get justice now as well.

So that qualifies as a blinder then? Right hoh

[LCohen]

Other three suspensions stand I believe
Process for O Neill was always going to be challenged.

Yet still nobody knows what the other 3 lads did to warrant suspensions (or the Donegal lads for that matter). There is no video evidence showing their discretions, at least with O'Neill you could see some form of semblance of a striking action no matter how minimal it was.

So if the same thing happens again, a few random lads from each side will get pulled out by the referee based on his proximity to them at the time. Instead of basing it on the actual available video evidence which doesn't show them doing anything more than any other player.

This would be normal. The normal starting point for punishment is what the officials saw, not what the camera saw.

You might not know what the referee saw but the players know.

You assume that lads have been selected at random. Is it not just possible that the ref hit a clear line of sight on some offences but not all offences and we just have to go on living in an imperfect world?

[LCohen]

This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.

It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said

But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
ReplyQuoteNotify

Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy  alive and well.

O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.

I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.

Its simple. Team penalties.

Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.

Team penalties are the way to go. Heavy penalties at that