Graham Linehan on Twitter / Trans debate

[HokeyPokey]

It was heartening to read some actual experiences and empathy.

I do find it odd that those who are so against trans rights have no personal experiences or skin in the game so as to speak. There certainly are issues that need to be worked through, but so many of the so called issues are concocted / over egged.

There's all this stuff about biological males in women spaces being a danger etc. Most trans people use non-gendered/disabled toilets afaik due to being self conscious and the same crowd oppose that too with bad faith arguments about cost  when it just means adding a sign to a disabled toilet.
There's also literally nothing stopping men from entering women's toilets. Someone who wants to sexually assault women or worse doesn't need to become trans to do that. The danger women most face are from men in general and especially those they know.

There's reasonable ways to sort out most of these issues sensitively, but the witch hunt against trans people isn't the way to deal with them. The IRFU banned all trans females from playing women's rugby, which affected all of two people as far as I know. That sends a terrible message to trans people. Size difference is an issue and that should be applied across all grades. Having a set of guidelines, for trans women and for children etc. (as is done in NZ) would have been the sensible thing to do, rather than bowing to a mob.

I'm not trans and it's not something I can relate to, but I am perturbed by how such a large group of people seem obsessed with the issue, which is whipping up terrible hate against a tiny minority of society who are some of the most vulnerable people. And seriously, our country and world has much more pressing issues and inequalities which affects everyone and not just a percentage of a percent .

Sexuality, gender and so much else about humans varies wildly. Just look across the world, now and historically.

[Jell 0 Biafra]

All of this.

Great post.

[Main Street]

I do find it odd that those who are so against trans rights have no personal experiences or skin in the game so as to speak.

Not even Graham Lenihan or J.K. Rowling are against 'trans rights' per se.

[tonto1888]

It was heartening to read some actual experiences and empathy.

I do find it odd that those who are so against trans rights have no personal experiences or skin in the game so as to speak. There certainly are issues that need to be worked through, but so many of the so called issues are concocted / over egged.

There's all this stuff about biological males in women spaces being a danger etc. Most trans people use non-gendered/disabled toilets afaik due to being self conscious and the same crowd oppose that too with bad faith arguments about cost  when it just means adding a sign to a disabled toilet.
There's also literally nothing stopping men from entering women's toilets. Someone who wants to sexually assault women or worse doesn't need to become trans to do that. The danger women most face are from men in general and especially those they know.

There's reasonable ways to sort out most of these issues sensitively, but the witch hunt against trans people isn't the way to deal with them. The IRFU banned all trans females from playing women's rugby, which affected all of two people as far as I know. That sends a terrible message to trans people. Size difference is an issue and that should be applied across all grades. Having a set of guidelines, for trans women and for children etc. (as is done in NZ) would have been the sensible thing to do, rather than bowing to a mob.

I'm not trans and it's not something I can relate to, but I am perturbed by how such a large group of people seem obsessed with the issue, which is whipping up terrible hate against a tiny minority of society who are some of the most vulnerable people. And seriously, our country and world has much more pressing issues and inequalities which affects everyone and not just a percentage of a percent .

Sexuality, gender and so much else about humans varies wildly. Just look across the world, now and historically.

great post

[bennydorano]

If you follow Linehan and the likes, the debate is much wider than transgender rights and womens' rights being trampled on tho, its also about young people (some highly vulnerable) transitioning at  immature ages, unnecessary surgeries, puberty blockers. Some dangerous stuff becoming orthodoxy.

Wanting to discuss it in a reasonable manner is not anti anything either. That has been a huge part of the problem, debate being shut down, people being black balled & vilified for daring to question anything.

[trueblue1234]

If you follow Linehan and the likes, the debate is much wider than transgender rights and womens' rights being trampled on tho, its also about young people (some highly vulnerable) transitioning at  immature ages, unnecessary surgeries, puberty blockers. Some dangerous stuff becoming orthodoxy.

Wanting to discuss it in a reasonable manner is not anti anything either. That has been a huge part of the problem, debate being shut down, people being black balled & vilified for daring to question anything.

I think most people start of in a reasonable manner but it escalates quickly by both sides. The trying to use extreme scenarios to justify not extending some rights to trans people as mentioned above is bad faith arguments.This just as much as the vilification of people is the issue. It's one of those topics that has fallen into the left/ right identification scale. And as we've seen on here those arguments always end up messy.
I would see myself slightly left of middle. But with mixed viewpoints on the trans issue. It's not an easy subject to navigate.

[imtommygunn]

yeah exactly this.

[tonto1888]

If you follow Linehan and the likes, the debate is much wider than transgender rights and womens' rights being trampled on tho, its also about young people (some highly vulnerable) transitioning at  immature ages, unnecessary surgeries, puberty blockers. Some dangerous stuff becoming orthodoxy.

Wanting to discuss it in a reasonable manner is not anti anything either. That has been a huge part of the problem, debate being shut down, people being black balled & vilified for daring to question anything.

fully agree with that. There is room for proper discussion on the matter. Linehan doesnt do that though, or if he does it gets lost amongst his nonsense

For your first sentence I agree that there should be a minimum age but having listened to some trans people on the topic, they would say if you wait until youre 18 then some male puberty changes have happened and it is too late by then. Thats them speaking form their own experiences

[tonto1888]

Calling trans women perverts in dresses does not help matters whatsoever

[gallsman]

The problem with that argument is that it assumes "trans rights" are being infringed upon in the first place and that a lot of these "rights" are based on the statement that "trans women are women" and that refusal to blindly accept that makes someone transphobic. Perhaps not insignificantly, most people shouting "trans women are women" tend to be men. Thanks for your input Daniel Radcliffe. This is even more ridiculous when you see someone like Starmer refuse to answer the question "what is a woman?"

Given we're a GAA discussion board, the main focus here is around sport. Saying trans women should not compete in women's sports is not a denial of their rights. The argument against it is backed by numerous credible sports scientists, e.g. Ross Tucker. Introducing "trans women are big and yes that might hurt someone playing rugby, but the numbers are so small it's irrelevant therefore it doesn't matter" into the discussion is a red herring. The issue is the principle and integrity of women's sport as a protected category. Lia Thomas, for example, winning NCAA titles competing as a woman denied women who haven't gone through male puberty the chance to be a national champion. That is simple, irrefutable fact. That statement does not deprive her of her rights to live her life whatever way she so chooses.

As far as the discussion around medicating kids with puberty blockers etc, anyone who genuinely argues in favour needs their head examined, as evidenced by the conclusions of the Cass report. Language around "the trans movement" is unhelpful as it's not as if there's some monolithic entity out there speaking for everyone, even if some organisations or individuals purport to. Hello Owen f**king Jones. However, there are undeniably organisations and individuals who appear to have a specific agenda when it comes to trans issues, e.g. the pushing of medically questionable practices such as "tucking" or advocating for parents of minors not to be informed of medical procedures they are undergoing. There was an infamous Vice article a few years ago with the title "How to go down on a trans woman" that interviewed several prominent trans "sexperts". It was littered with complete nonsense that in many cases was decried as medically unsafe. Calling out crap like this is, again, neither transphobic nor a denial of rights.

[johnnycool]

The problem with that argument is that it assumes "trans rights" are being infringed upon in the first place and that a lot of these "rights" are based on the statement that "trans women are women" and that refusal to blindly accept that makes someone transphobic. Perhaps not insignificantly, most people shouting "trans women are women" tend to be men. Thanks for your input Daniel Radcliffe. This is even more ridiculous when you see someone like Starmer refuse to answer the question "what is a woman?"

Given we're a GAA discussion board, the main focus here is around sport. Saying trans women should not compete in women's sports is not a denial of their rights. The argument against it is backed by numerous credible sports scientists, e.g. Ross Tucker. Introducing "trans women are big and yes that might hurt someone playing rugby, but the numbers are so small it's irrelevant therefore it doesn't matter" into the discussion is a red herring. The issue is the principle and integrity of women's sport as a protected category. Lia Thomas, for example, winning NCAA titles competing as a woman denied women who haven't gone through male puberty the chance to be a national champion. That is simple, irrefutable fact. That statement does not deprive her of her rights to live her life whatever way she so chooses.

As far as the discussion around medicating kids with puberty blockers etc, anyone who genuinely argues in favour needs their head examined, as evidenced by the conclusions of the Cass report. Language around "the trans movement" is unhelpful as it's not as if there's some monolithic entity out there speaking for everyone, even if some organisations or individuals purport to. Hello Owen f**king Jones. However, there are undeniably organisations and individuals who appear to have a specific agenda when it comes to trans issues, e.g. the pushing of medically questionable practices such as "tucking" or advocating for parents of minors not to be informed of medical procedures they are undergoing. There was an infamous Vice article a few years ago with the title "How to go down on a trans woman" that interviewed several prominent trans "sexperts". It was littered with complete nonsense that in many cases was decried as medically unsafe. Calling out crap like this is, again, neither transphobic nor a denial of rights.

Probably my take on it as well.

I've no issue with "trans rights" or trans people in general but there are instances when someones "rights" impinges on another persons "rights" especially in the sporting context.

At times is just doesn't look right irrespective of testerone levels etc etc.

[gallsman]

A minor correction to my last post. The article is titled "How to Eat Out a Non-Op Trans woman".

Indeed.

[theskull1]

Its 99.99% of the populations take JC.

[Tones]

Its 99.99% of the populations take JC.

Yet those who have a different take are the loudest and most militant.

[johnnycool]

Its 99.99% of the populations take JC.

Well see that public defender person in the US or Sam Smith, fair play to them, that doesn't bother me one iota but they should not be called freaks and people who use that term are very insecure in their own sexuality I find.