Westmeath v Armagh (Sat 08.07.17) Cusack Park, 7pm

[Captain Obvious]

Win is a win for Armagh but made hard work of it against a very poorly coached Westmeath team. Need to improve by 50% to beat Monaghan or Tipperary.

[tonto1888]

TBH with 10 mins to go i could only see one winner and it wasn't Armagh but Westmeath kicked 2-3 wides that were handy enough and Armagh punished them. Armagh seemed to have to work a lot harder for their free's and on one occasion i swore he blew for a foul before the tackle was made, I genuinley believe the Ref wouldn't have taken action against some of the Westmeath players if it wasn't for the crowd shaming him into it. Armagh's bench seems to be winning them the games as they seem a lot better than the men starting and introduced at the right times they're getting Armagh over the line.

Jamie's black card was prob deserved but the shock of it after a few seconds was hard to take, James Morgan's was deserved too as his job was clearly to man mark midfielder and mark him he did...literally. Took my eye of the ball for the sending off so wasn't too sure if it was deserved not. Both teams were pulling and dragging and football quality wasn't good but it still had you on the edge of your seat

McCabes was the only one o can say for certain was a definite black card. He swiped at the players feet with his hands. Definitely black

[tonto1888]

The row in the stand was caused by an ould eejit wearing Armagh colours rubbing a Westmeath fan's nose in it after the Armagh goal.Three Gardai moved to defuse it. I stress it was an ould eejit who should have had more sense

Tony. What did you do?

[armaghniac]

The Armagh player who got sent off should have got a yellow and black instead of 2 yellows.

Hand trip, black card.

I felt the black card given to the Westmeath player was a yellow.

Also clear enough black in my opinion, man deliberately brought to ground.

The 5000 attendance is very suspect, the place was full. What is the capacity?


It also looked like his replacement was allowed on before the next break in play. Also, how the Westmeath player who cleaned Grimley out after he made the pass for the goal did not get booked I will never know. And is Heslin not allowed to get booked?  Worst of all though is inconsistency.

I am glad Armagh win as I can not be accused of soar grapes😀
[/quote]

[Orior]

Did anyone else see Jamie come out onto the pitch before the warm-up? I reckon he couldn't get a signal in the changing rooms, and he wanted to text his mate to say that he would be attending the Coldplay concert after all.

[Catch and Kick]

Armagh were cynical all through. On and off the ball. The amount of intimidation, aggressive pulling and dragging of players with no ball within 100 yards was shocking. Officials let Armagh with far too much and did not have control.
Westmeath threw it away though at the death with bad wides from frees and play.
And I'm neutral!

[David McKeown]

The row in the stand was caused by an ould eejit wearing Armagh colours rubbing a Westmeath fan's nose in it after the Armagh goal.Three Gardai moved to defuse it. I stress it was an ould eejit who should have had more sense

A massive over simplification of what happened in which no one covers themselves in glory. Lots of needle throughout from the initial shocking decision to black card Clarke for a clear shoulder charge. Some Armagh fans didn't cover themselves in glory after that abusing players and officials and using foul language. The Westmeath subs bench took exception to some of the things said and hurled abuse at the offending Armagh supporters. After the goal a different Armagh supporter turned round to taunt the Westmeath bench who threw water over him and began to threaten him. Very unedifying for all involved.

[David McKeown]

Armagh were cynical all through. On and off the ball. The amount of intimidation, aggressive pulling and dragging of players with no ball within 100 yards was shocking. Officials let Armagh with far too much and did not have control.
Westmeath threw it away though at the death with bad wides from frees and play.
And I'm neutral!

I thought it was hard to judge as Westmeath got away with an awful lot whilst Armagh seemed very harshly treated for any misdemeanor. That said credit to Armagh who reverted to a system in the second half that reduced fouling and made the game difficult for Westmeath. Deserved winners in the end

[Lone Shark]

Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.

And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.

In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.

The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.

The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.

Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.

If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.

The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.     

[PAULD123]

Just home.

A great day out, over 5,000 at the match (seemed more to me) and Armagh fans must outnumbered the Westmeath fans by 3 to 1.

The referee had a bad day. Jamie shouldered the Westmeath player after the ball had gone, and the linesman called the ref over and got him black carded. Some might say that the linesman hadn't a baldy clue.

I thought really exciting match. Westmeath missed a bucket load of decent scoring chances, and whilst Armagh did at time over elaborate, they were trying to keep possession until a decent opening occurred.

Lots of good performaances all over the field, but Oisin's point was superb.

Didn'the see the game or the incident so only commenting on what you have said. but aren't you describing a player being taken-out off the ball after the ball has been played away, which is a black card offence?

Or was the ball cleared way up the pitch?

[Lone Shark]

A massive over simplification of what happened in which no one covers themselves in glory. Lots of needle throughout from the initial shocking decision to black card Clarke for a clear shoulder charge.

You forgot to mention how it was off the ball, and how Clarke continued to pull out of Gonoud while he was on the ground, in case he planned on getting up and supporting the Westmeath man in possession. Nobody except the most one-eyed of Armagh supporters could say anything else. Not a single dissenting voice in the press box at the time, from Armagh, Westmeath, or neutrals - he had to go.

I thought it was hard to judge as Westmeath got away with an awful lot whilst Armagh seemed very harshly treated for any misdemeanor. That said credit to Armagh who reverted to a system in the second half that reduced fouling and made the game difficult for Westmeath. Deserved winners in the end

Deserved winners, yes. The rest of that is daft. Firstly, they committed 19 fouls in the first half and 20 in the second. 18 personals in each - that's not reduction by my maths. And harshly treated would suggest unwarranted cards - there wasn't a single card Armagh got that could be remotely disputed, and there were at least ten more that could have been awarded along with it. For one example, not one free was given for late tackle all game, and it quickly became apparent to me that it was a team tactic to hit after the ball was gone. At one stage I counted five late hits in four minutes, none penalised.

Again, I have no axe to grind here, and the handful or Armagh folk I know are good GAA people that I'd have a lot of time for. I've always enjoyed watching them play, but in all my time going to games professionally and socially, I've never seen anything like what went on tonight. 

[armaghniac]

It has been obvious for a long time that Armagh tackling is at best sloppy, sometimes reckless and rarely enough precise. It isn't something that can be worked on in a week, but it is a problem. For instance, Down were noticeably more disciplined. When there is good work it is often undone by someone then  flapping at an attacker and giving away a free.   

That said Clarke is surely more sinned against, on balance, and other refs did not give him much protection. Perhaps there was some sort of intention to stop Westmeath getting off to a good start and he lost the plot.

[tonto1888]

Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.

And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.

In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.

The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.

The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.

Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.

If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.

The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.     

This is nowhere near a neutral report. Three black cards and one red. Sure don't mention that one of the black cards and the red were the same person.
No mention of weetmeaths cynical play. Their drag downs. Late hits. Blocks of the ball. Their play acting. Their trying to influence the referee and linesmen. Or their two black cards and what could have and should have been more.
And I hate to tell you this but Armagh won the game

[smelmoth]

What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?

If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.

We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?

[Catch and Kick]

Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.

And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.

In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.

The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.

The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.

Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.

If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.

The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.     

Agree 100%. Was amazed what was let go.