Westmeath v Armagh (Sat 08.07.17) Cusack Park, 7pm

[snoopdog]

What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?

If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.

We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?

I seem to recall Kildare blaming refs all the time also under mcgeeney management.  Dublin beat that westmeath team by 31 points. The draw for the next round will be interesting. If you avoid Monaghan and get past Tipp you could be playing Down again as Down can't draw Monaghan. That's if Down lose Ulster final. Qualifiers are very poorly organised this group a and b is a terrible idea. Just leads to a bigger chance of  teams who have met previously to meet again.

[naka]

Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.

And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.

In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.

The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.

The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.

Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.

If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.

The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.     

Lone shark
Two teams were at it.
Not neutral at all.
Westmeath were no saints

[Throw ball]

Loneshark in the matter of Armagh tackling you are not saying anything that many Armagh people have not been saying for quite a while. Particularly about Forker and Morgan.  I agree totally about McCabe.  He deserved to go. I did not see either of the black card incidents for Clarke or Morgan.  (I should add a friend at the match gave of about O'Hanlon tackling from early on). All that said the biggest problems I have with the referee are his inconsistencies. For example Campbell at one stage got a free given against him for over carrying the ball went down the field and a Westmeath player did the same thing and was given the free. At one stage I also remember a Westmeath player charge head down into the chest of an Armagh player who had his arms out and a free was given to Westmeath. I could go on and on. The worst though was his dealing with Heslin. I thought he committed a number of 'after' fouls and even managed to punch a player without penalty. I read the Hogan Stand report and it did mention he was lucky to stay on the field.

Now it may just be my impression but I do not feel Armagh are in the same league of rough tackling as Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc. They might not be as smart at it though. I also wonder if the referee was so good he does not get more big games.

[tonto1888]

What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?

If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.

We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?

He already mentioned those. McCabe was a walking red from the moment he walked on. I didn't see what Clarke done but there's a few differing reports out there so it's hard to know. As for Morgan, my uncle said to me after a few minutes that Westmeath were trying to get him sent off it black carded.  A few minutes later he was. Was it deserved? Happened on the opposite side of the pitch to me so I can't say but again different people saying different things. One Westmeath man I spoke to afterwards said it wasn't. One Armagh man said it was so who knows.
The 40 fouls though. Bad number but how many of them should never have been frees? That said we didn't wise up to it at all.
The guy gave a very thorough report but it certainly wasn't an unbiased report as he claimed. Loneshark makes some very valid points. As do you. But just because we have been mentioning refs for two years doesn't mean we should overlook their ineptitude when they do it

[OgraAnDun]

The row in the stand was caused by an ould eejit wearing Armagh colours rubbing a Westmeath fan's nose in it after the Armagh goal.Three Gardai moved to defuse it. I stress it was an ould eejit who should have had more sense

A massive over simplification of what happened in which no one covers themselves in glory. Lots of needle throughout from the initial shocking decision to black card Clarke for a clear shoulder charge. Some Armagh fans didn't cover themselves in glory after that abusing players and officials and using foul language. The Westmeath subs bench took exception to some of the things said and hurled abuse at the offending Armagh supporters. After the goal a different Armagh supporter turned round to taunt the Westmeath bench who threw water over him and began to threaten him. Very unedifying for all involved.

Armagh fan got what he deserved in other words, there's few things more irritating as a sub sitting in the stand and having a pack of opposition mouthpieces sitting behind you. Kilcoo would be big fans of it.

[David McKeown]

A massive over simplification of what happened in which no one covers themselves in glory. Lots of needle throughout from the initial shocking decision to black card Clarke for a clear shoulder charge.

You forgot to mention how it was off the ball, and how Clarke continued to pull out of Gonoud while he was on the ground, in case he planned on getting up and supporting the Westmeath man in possession. Nobody except the most one-eyed of Armagh supporters could say anything else. Not a single dissenting voice in the press box at the time, from Armagh, Westmeath, or neutrals - he had to go.

I thought it was hard to judge as Westmeath got away with an awful lot whilst Armagh seemed very harshly treated for any misdemeanor. That said credit to Armagh who reverted to a system in the second half that reduced fouling and made the game difficult for Westmeath. Deserved winners in the end

Deserved winners, yes. The rest of that is daft. Firstly, they committed 19 fouls in the first half and 20 in the second. 18 personals in each - that's not reduction by my maths. And harshly treated would suggest unwarranted cards - there wasn't a single card Armagh got that could be remotely disputed, and there were at least ten more that could have been awarded along with it. For one example, not one free was given for late tackle all game, and it quickly became apparent to me that it was a team tactic to hit after the ball was gone. At one stage I counted five late hits in four minutes, none penalised.

Again, I have no axe to grind here, and the handful or Armagh folk I know are good GAA people that I'd have a lot of time for. I've always enjoyed watching them play, but in all my time going to games professionally and socially, I've never seen anything like what went on tonight.

With reference to the rules for a black card which black card offence did Clarke commit, for him to have no complaints? The problem with the black card is that despite it being for very specific well defined offences fans, journalists and referees often seem clueless as to when it should be given

As to the number of fouls awarded they must be concerning but given the abhorrent performance of the referee I would take the numbers with a pinch of salt.

[mackers]

Lone Shark to portray yourself as a neutral and then list every single disgression that Armagh made and  ignore everything thatWestmeath done doesn't read well. You ignored the two obvious black cards not given against Westmeath players in front of the stand in the second half before the ones that they did get. You ignored the black card offence on Niall Grimley before the goal. You ignored the clear black card offence on Stefan Campbell in the first half. Finally you ignored the punch by John Heslin on Brendan Donaghy at the low goals which happened under the nose of the umpires and the ref. Neutral, give me a break!!
That said, Armaghs tackling was shockingly poor. It had actually been very good against Fermanagh with numerous legal turnovers with Rory Grugan very prominent. Highly debatable that all 36 frees were justified though. It's something that will have to be worked on for the next game for sure.
This Armagh team had been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory all year so the nature of this win should do wonders for their confidence.
Hard to find any real outstanding performances from an Armagh player. Thought our midfielders did well, we just couldn't get a break ball during the final 10 minutes. Aidan Forker had a decent second half. RoryvGrugan and Gavin McParland had a good first half. Our subs had a great influence in the final few minutes.

[AZOffaly]

Lone shark is from Offaly lads. I don't think he'd be in any way inclined to put on Maroon tinted glasses. If anything the opposite. This is the lad who was roaring at Westmeath lads to get back in their box after a league win back in the mid 00s I think

[tonto1888]

Lone shark is from Offaly lads. I don't think he'd be in any way inclined to put on Maroon tinted glasses. If anything the opposite. This is the lad who was roaring at Westmeath lads to get back in their box after a league win back in the mid 00s I think

He's want to be writing about their antics though if he wants to be taken seriously as neutral. Or at least not anti Armagh

[Smokin Joe]

Even the commentators on Midlands103 expected a Westmeath player to receive a red card for a strike towards the end of the first half (I think it was).
LS, it seems like the unjust feelings from the Armagh supporters wasn't due to the fact that we were harshly treated; but rather it was that Westmeath didn't receive the same punishment for their fouls?

[illdecide]

Lone Shark, i agree with some of your points you mentioned but the main point you got wrong was the nuetral part, you gave a report on how bad Armagh were at this and that and how many players should have been sent off etc. You gave i dunno how many paragraphs on Armagh but haven't mentioned one Westmeath player, I trust you being neutral and all that there will be a similar report to come today on Westmeath players as i know it was late when you done the Armagh report and prob didn't have the time to write the Westmeath one...look forward to reading it later

[tonto1888]

I don't think Armagh fans will find an awful lot wrong with what LS said. Well most it if. It's more what he didn't say which is the problem

[Throw ball]

Never mind this match in isolation but isn't the black card rule as it stands a load of crap. It just adds greater pressure and frustration. As others have said it seems most players, referees, fans etc. don't know rule.

[smelmoth]

What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?

If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.

We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?

I seem to recall Kildare blaming refs all the time also under mcgeeney management.  Dublin beat that westmeath team by 31 points. The draw for the next round will be interesting. If you avoid Monaghan and get past Tipp you could be playing Down again as Down can't draw Monaghan. That's if Down lose Ulster final. Qualifiers are very poorly organised this group a and b is a terrible idea. Just leads to a bigger chance of  teams who have met previously to meet again.

Why can Down draw Monaghan but not play armagh?

The a and b draws are key to minimising teams turning out the week after a defeat. A good thing

[smelmoth]

In fairness to Lone Shark I think it's entirely possible to attend a game as a neutral, see things that you don't like, judge that one team are more culpable and post on a discussion forum about that team. If they happen to be winners and the opposition now effectively irrelevant for the remainder of the season then all the more so.

We remain relevant. We in the draw and gave another game. It will be refereed by one of the guys on the current roster and the rules of the game won't change by next Saturday. We have discipline and tackling issues to worry about by next Saturday. We also need to look at same issues in our club and underage games and in our coaching. Controls the controllables and all the usual mantras