The Many Faces of US Politics...

Started by Tyrones own, March 20, 2009, 09:29:14 PM

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Gmac

Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on March 13, 2018, 10:35:18 PM
Quote"We should have a new force called the Space Force. It's like the Army and the Navy, but for space, because we're spending a lot of money on space."
u know that was a piss take right

sid waddell

Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2018, 03:40:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 14, 2018, 03:07:46 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2018, 02:48:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 14, 2018, 02:23:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 13, 2018, 10:28:36 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on March 13, 2018, 09:41:49 PM
QuoteIt's just that I find a lot of what's said about Russia in the mainstream media isn't credible.

Such as?
How the conflict in Syria is reported, how the Ukraine situation was reported, the alleged state doping, the investigation into the shooting down of MH17, the Sergei Skripal case and basically any time Nikki Haley has a camera in front of her.
Presumably the entirety of the western media has it all wrong about Syria and we should believe "independent" journalists like Eva Bartlett and Vanessa Beeley, who aren't slavish propagandists for Assad and Russia, or anything like that.

Presumably Russia was justified in invading a sovereign country and justified in attempting to poison Yuschenko, or didn't do it at all.

Presumably the Russians didn't shoot down MH17.

Presumably the Russians didn't poison Sergei Skripal or Litvinenko or haven't done all sorts of horrible shit against individuals living outside Russia, and presumably they don't lock up or murder anybody who puts their head above the parapet inside Russia.

Presumably Putin being a very, very, very rich man due to corruption on an industrial scale is all lies.

Putin is just a friendly Russian teddy bear.

Or something.
In your last couple of posts you've done quite a bit of alleging and presuming. If you're happy with what you've learned and where you've learned it then presume away. I prefer to hear different views on it and people's reasons for them.

What sort of "views" lead you to believe what you appear to believe about Russia and Putin?
I didn't say I believed anything. It seems a lot of posters think that only firm views should be held on some issues and such view should be challenged aggressively. No place for open discussion, despite it being a discussion board. Check out Gabriel Hurl's past couple of contributions for example.

I'm interested in how US/Russian relations are and how they're played out in the media, both here and elsewhere, and I like to discuss them.
That's not a very informative response.

Jell 0 Biafra

#12167
Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.

sid waddell

Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 15, 2018, 12:01:29 AM
Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.
Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.




Jell 0 Biafra

Actually, Russia has been accused of tampering.  From allegedly hacking into the DNC, to allegedly hacking into computerized ballot counting in several states.

The DNC thing was the initial basis for the Muller probe.

Putinbots abound, but that's just propaganda.  If that's the sole basis for the allegations of interfering in elections, that's pretty weak stuff. All of the states that would be regarded as major powers do this in their own way. 

whitey

Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2018, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 15, 2018, 12:01:29 AM
Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.
Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw

Gabriel_Hurl

Quote from: Gmac on March 14, 2018, 10:43:17 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on March 13, 2018, 10:35:18 PM
Quote"We should have a new force called the Space Force. It's like the Army and the Navy, but for space, because we're spending a lot of money on space."
u know that was a piss take right

What? Your posts? Yes - I know.

seafoid

Quote from: whitey on March 15, 2018, 01:31:34 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2018, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 15, 2018, 12:01:29 AM
Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.
Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw
It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Esmarelda

Quote from: sid waddell on March 14, 2018, 11:12:26 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2018, 03:40:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 14, 2018, 03:07:46 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2018, 02:48:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 14, 2018, 02:23:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 13, 2018, 10:28:36 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on March 13, 2018, 09:41:49 PM
QuoteIt's just that I find a lot of what's said about Russia in the mainstream media isn't credible.

Such as?
How the conflict in Syria is reported, how the Ukraine situation was reported, the alleged state doping, the investigation into the shooting down of MH17, the Sergei Skripal case and basically any time Nikki Haley has a camera in front of her.
Presumably the entirety of the western media has it all wrong about Syria and we should believe "independent" journalists like Eva Bartlett and Vanessa Beeley, who aren't slavish propagandists for Assad and Russia, or anything like that.

Presumably Russia was justified in invading a sovereign country and justified in attempting to poison Yuschenko, or didn't do it at all.

Presumably the Russians didn't shoot down MH17.

Presumably the Russians didn't poison Sergei Skripal or Litvinenko or haven't done all sorts of horrible shit against individuals living outside Russia, and presumably they don't lock up or murder anybody who puts their head above the parapet inside Russia.

Presumably Putin being a very, very, very rich man due to corruption on an industrial scale is all lies.

Putin is just a friendly Russian teddy bear.

Or something.
In your last couple of posts you've done quite a bit of alleging and presuming. If you're happy with what you've learned and where you've learned it then presume away. I prefer to hear different views on it and people's reasons for them.

What sort of "views" lead you to believe what you appear to believe about Russia and Putin?
I didn't say I believed anything. It seems a lot of posters think that only firm views should be held on some issues and such view should be challenged aggressively. No place for open discussion, despite it being a discussion board. Check out Gabriel Hurl's past couple of contributions for example.

I'm interested in how US/Russian relations are and how they're played out in the media, both here and elsewhere, and I like to discuss them.
That's not a very informative response.
Well I could make dramatic statements like "plainly guilty" and "all over politics" that make it sound like I know what I'm talking about but my post was merely meant to inform you of my opinion.

I think Jell O and Whitey have covered it quite well in their past couple of posts.

sid waddell

Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 09:36:23 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 14, 2018, 11:12:26 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2018, 03:40:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 14, 2018, 03:07:46 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2018, 02:48:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 14, 2018, 02:23:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 13, 2018, 10:28:36 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on March 13, 2018, 09:41:49 PM
QuoteIt's just that I find a lot of what's said about Russia in the mainstream media isn't credible.

Such as?
How the conflict in Syria is reported, how the Ukraine situation was reported, the alleged state doping, the investigation into the shooting down of MH17, the Sergei Skripal case and basically any time Nikki Haley has a camera in front of her.
Presumably the entirety of the western media has it all wrong about Syria and we should believe "independent" journalists like Eva Bartlett and Vanessa Beeley, who aren't slavish propagandists for Assad and Russia, or anything like that.

Presumably Russia was justified in invading a sovereign country and justified in attempting to poison Yuschenko, or didn't do it at all.

Presumably the Russians didn't shoot down MH17.

Presumably the Russians didn't poison Sergei Skripal or Litvinenko or haven't done all sorts of horrible shit against individuals living outside Russia, and presumably they don't lock up or murder anybody who puts their head above the parapet inside Russia.

Presumably Putin being a very, very, very rich man due to corruption on an industrial scale is all lies.

Putin is just a friendly Russian teddy bear.

Or something.
In your last couple of posts you've done quite a bit of alleging and presuming. If you're happy with what you've learned and where you've learned it then presume away. I prefer to hear different views on it and people's reasons for them.

What sort of "views" lead you to believe what you appear to believe about Russia and Putin?
I didn't say I believed anything. It seems a lot of posters think that only firm views should be held on some issues and such view should be challenged aggressively. No place for open discussion, despite it being a discussion board. Check out Gabriel Hurl's past couple of contributions for example.

I'm interested in how US/Russian relations are and how they're played out in the media, both here and elsewhere, and I like to discuss them.
That's not a very informative response.
Well I could make dramatic statements like "plainly guilty" and "all over politics" that make it sound like I know what I'm talking about but my post was merely meant to inform you of my opinion.

I think Jell O and Whitey have covered it quite well in their past couple of posts.

You're the only one who has posted the words "all over politics", which on their own don't even mean anything.

You didn't give an opinion.

Russia interfered in the US election. That is a fact, not opinion. So yes indeed, they are plainly guilty of it.

Russia has a strategy of trying to undermine western liberal democracy and its institutions through mass internet-driven propaganda, fake news and cultivating politicians like Trump, Farage and Le Pen. That is a fact.

It might be easier to get a few more facts from inside Russia itself if the regime allowed a genuine free press and genuine political opposition. It doesn't, because Putin has decided it should be an authoritarian state run for his benefit.

The reaction of the Russian government and its supporters on the internet to any accusations that Russia's behaviour might be less than honest, reminds me of the reactions of athletes denying they dope.

You'd have to have a very touching gullibility like Jimmy Magee did as regards Michelle Smith to believe a word the Russians say.


Esmarelda

I do apologise Sid, I misread what you typed. Cheerfully withdrawn.

So what if I didn't give an opinion? I said I was interested in these issues. I read from western media and non-western media. I'm not stupid enough to think that either are telling the whole truth. So if I admit that I can't possibly know the truth, how can I have an opinion? Would you like me to guess?

You say it's a fact that "Russia interfered in the US election". Who are Russia? The Kremlin or group of lads in St. Petersburg? What does interfere mean? How many facebook ads does it take to constitute interfering? If I meet ten US citizens and tell them that Hilary is the devil, am I interfering?

And then more "facts" with the vaguest of terms. People try to influence other people if it benefits themselves. It's hardly news. And it's beyond hilarious to hear the U.S. crying about it. I mean irony just doesn't cover it.


whitey

Quote from: seafoid on March 15, 2018, 08:45:09 AM
Quote from: whitey on March 15, 2018, 01:31:34 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2018, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 15, 2018, 12:01:29 AM
Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.
Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw
It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.

It all depends on who the Democrats put up as a candidate......as is evidenced by the recent special election in PA they seem to be learning their lesson.

Fringe issues appeal to fringe voters and might sit well in San Francisco or the wealhy suburbs of Boston, but wont win you a presidential election in the swing states.

Jobs, healthcare, taxes and the economy the the deciding issues for most voters I know

seafoid

Quote from: whitey on March 15, 2018, 11:48:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 15, 2018, 08:45:09 AM
Quote from: whitey on March 15, 2018, 01:31:34 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2018, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 15, 2018, 12:01:29 AM
Seemed fine to me.  Just because he wants to see evidence  of election tampering (beyond a few fake facebook profiles) doesn't mean he believes Putin is a saint who would never do anything untoward. 

The main evidence for tampering seems to be from statements made by US secret services who have not exactly got a track record that would make one believe x on the basis of their statement that x.
Russia has not been accused of "tampering" in the US election. The Republicans have enough people who are intent on denying the vote to ethnic minorities and others likely to vote Democrat, as well as systematically gerrymandering congressional districts to their advantage, not to need any help in that regard.

What they are plainly guilty of is in interfering in not just the US election, but other elections in the West as well as the Brexit referendum by way of mass internet-driven propaganda and "fake news".

Russian troll accounts are even populating Irish internet forums - they're all over politics.ie, for instance.

And of course they are cultivating far-right politicians all over Europe and in the US, most obviously, and with astounding success, Trump.

They have a clear divide and conquer strategy as regards the West and are attempting to undermine liberal democracy at every turn. It's currently working very well.

Anybody who cannot see this has a serious set of blinkers on.

So for arguments sake lets say youre an FG supporter and a you see a FB post or tweet posted by an Russian bot saying Enda Kenny is a cvnt.....would you switch your vote to FF based on those posts? 

Would you stay at home and not vote at all, because you are now disheartened by all the negativity?

Wheteher we like it or not, voters have been forced to sift through spin, waffle and misinformation for about 20 years....much of it emenating from the lame stream media. These Russian are just a continuation of a challenge that was already facing voters.....who and what do I believe?

To date I dont know if anyone has been able to prove that one single solitary voter had their mind changed by a tweet or a facebook post they saw
It would probably be a Roscommon bot slandering Enda.
Psy ops work, WhiTey.  It's the basis of the ad industry.
The US has 2 media systems and after 30 years of big fed alternative reality red US was ripe for some Russian messing.

I think the most interesting part will be the backlash against the GOP when voters figure out Trump is a fraud.

It all depends on who the Democrats put up as a candidate......as is evidenced by the recent special election in PA they seem to be learning their lesson.

Fringe issues appeal to fringe voters and might sit well in San Francisco or the wealhy suburbs of Boston, but wont win you a presidential election in the swing states.

Jobs, healthcare, taxes and the economy the the deciding issues for most voters I know
Trump is doing very little for jobs and even less for healthcare. He is rewarding the donors.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

sid waddell

Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 10:23:09 AM
I do apologise Sid, I misread what you typed. Cheerfully withdrawn.

So what if I didn't give an opinion? I said I was interested in these issues. I read from western media and non-western media. I'm not stupid enough to think that either are telling the whole truth. So if I admit that I can't possibly know the truth, how can I have an opinion? Would you like me to guess?

You say it's a fact that "Russia interfered in the US election". Who are Russia? The Kremlin or group of lads in St. Petersburg? What does interfere mean? How many facebook ads does it take to constitute interfering? If I meet ten US citizens and tell them that Hilary is the devil, am I interfering?

And then more "facts" with the vaguest of terms. People try to influence other people if it benefits themselves. It's hardly news. And it's beyond hilarious to hear the U.S. crying about it. I mean irony just doesn't cover it.

"Russia" means people acting on behalf of and with the support of the Russian government.

Russia has organised troll farms where people get paid to write propaganda and spread fake news. They use massive numbers of bots to publish automated propaganda. Significant amounts of Russian government money are allocated to funding this. That is not opinion, that is fact.

You say that "it is beyond hilarious to hear the US crying about it". That is called whataboutery.

But currently, the US government and the ruling party there are crying very little about it, and we can all take a pretty educated guess as to why that is.

You should take your whataboutery to somebody who supports or has supported US foreign policy interventions since World War II or their propaganda efforts to orchestrate regime changes in other countries, because I pretty much always don't.

By using whataboutery, which is always the standard response of those who seek to defend Russia, and by downplaying Russian interference and internet-driven mass propaganda, you actually legitimise what the US has done in that regard since World War II. I'm not sure you've quite thought that angle through.










Esmarelda

Quote from: sid waddell on March 15, 2018, 03:25:19 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 15, 2018, 10:23:09 AM
I do apologise Sid, I misread what you typed. Cheerfully withdrawn.

So what if I didn't give an opinion? I said I was interested in these issues. I read from western media and non-western media. I'm not stupid enough to think that either are telling the whole truth. So if I admit that I can't possibly know the truth, how can I have an opinion? Would you like me to guess?

You say it's a fact that "Russia interfered in the US election". Who are Russia? The Kremlin or group of lads in St. Petersburg? What does interfere mean? How many facebook ads does it take to constitute interfering? If I meet ten US citizens and tell them that Hilary is the devil, am I interfering?

And then more "facts" with the vaguest of terms. People try to influence other people if it benefits themselves. It's hardly news. And it's beyond hilarious to hear the U.S. crying about it. I mean irony just doesn't cover it.

"Russia" means people acting on behalf of and with the support of the Russian government.

Russia has organised troll farms where people get paid to write propaganda and spread fake news. They use massive numbers of bots to publish automated propaganda. Significant amounts of Russian government money are allocated to funding this. That is not opinion, that is fact.

You say that "it is beyond hilarious to hear the US crying about it". That is called whataboutery.

But currently, the US government and the ruling party there are crying very little about it, and we can all take a pretty educated guess as to why that is.

You should take your whataboutery to somebody who supports or has supported US foreign policy interventions since World War II or their propaganda efforts to orchestrate regime changes in other countries, because I pretty much always don't.

By using whataboutery, which is always the standard response of those who seek to defend Russia, and by downplaying Russian interference and internet-driven mass propaganda, you actually legitimise what the US has done in that regard since World War II. I'm not sure you've quite thought that angle through.
Again with the word "fact". Repeatedly saying it doesn't make it any more of a fact. How do you know it's a fact? Any of your facts?

And poor old whataboutery gets a blackening. I mentioned that in passing as it is hilarious to hear the US crying about such "facts" but forget I said it as it is indeed irrelevant to this conversation. I guess that means that it's not "always the standard response" anymore, although I wasn't actually defending Russia......but anyway.

Next, my downplaying of the level of Russian interference that we've seen, and presumably the other stuff that you know about, legitimises the US doing something similar? On that basis can we downplay anything anyone does or what level does it need to be reported before we can dismiss it,downplay it or doubt it?

I sort of see where you're going with some of your opinions but I also see that you've made up your mind on a lot of things with little reason given, at least as far as I know.