I see kimmage has moved onto the gaa and seems to have the dubs as his latest crusade. Anyone listen to him and luke fitzgerald?
The guy at this stage just seems very demonised. His criticism of dubs seems to be cynicism in the closing stages of ai final more than anythiing. ( gaelic football is just a reasonably cynical game and while i would prefer to see dublin beat i don't see them as any more cynical than anyone else).
Has he went as far as to mention drugs?
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 30, 2017, 10:59:59 AM
I see kimmage has moved onto the gaa and seems to have the dubs as his latest crusade. Anyone listen to him and luke fitzgerald?
The guy at this stage just seems very demonised. His criticism of dubs seems to be cynicism in the closing stages of ai final more than anythiing. ( gaelic football is just a reasonably cynical game and while i would prefer to see dublin beat i don't see them as any more cynical than anyone else).
Has he went as far as to mention drugs?
Crusade is the right word for him!
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 30, 2017, 10:59:59 AM
I see kimmage has moved onto the gaa and seems to have the dubs as his latest crusade. Anyone listen to him and luke fitzgerald?
The guy at this stage just seems very demonised. His criticism of dubs seems to be cynicism in the closing stages of ai final more than anythiing. ( gaelic football is just a reasonably cynical game and while i would prefer to see dublin beat i don't see them as any more cynical than anyone else).
Has he went as far as to mention drugs?
The last 2 minutes were a disgrace imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KbVIFEFnU
He made a complete twat of Fitzgerald. Fitz was way out of his depth and knew it.
Everything Kimmage said in that debate was logical and backed up. You don't have to agree with his opinion but Fitzgerald came across as a complete knob and tried to play the man on umpteen occasions. He was also stupid enough to claim that "if a doctor tells you to do it, it's not cheating"
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 12:18:56 PM
He made a complete twat of Fitzgerald. Fitz was way out of his depth and knew it.
Everything Kimmage said in that debate was logical and backed up. You don't have to agree with his opinion but Fitzgerald came across as a complete knob and tried to play the man on umpteen occasions. He was also stupid enough to claim that "if a doctor tells you to do it, it's not cheating"
Lol. Cough, bloodgate, cough.
Kimmage really seems to not like gavin at all.
Taking painkillers to enable you to play when you otherwise couldn't isn't "performance enhancing" according to Fitzgerald either.
He thought he was a real lad mocking Kimmage for turning up with material and having done some research. Threw in lots of dismissive "we haven't got all day Paul" type comments as well. Was shown up badly by the real journalist in the room
I love Kimmage's Q&A articles and is a very good journalist but he is a dick. Seems to always have a chip on his shoulder.
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 12:36:03 PM
Taking painkillers to enable you to play when you otherwise couldn't isn't "performance enhancing" according to Fitzgerald either.
He thought he was a real lad mocking Kimmage for turning up with material and having done some research. Threw in lots of dismissive "we haven't got all day Paul" type comments as well. Was shown up badly by the real journalist in the room
It's not performance enhancing its just short sighted, reckless and stupid
So if you're physically unable to perform, then take something that allows you perform, that's not performance enhancing? Honestly?
Quote from: seafoid on September 30, 2017, 12:06:48 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 30, 2017, 10:59:59 AM
I see kimmage has moved onto the gaa and seems to have the dubs as his latest crusade. Anyone listen to him and luke fitzgerald?
The guy at this stage just seems very demonised. His criticism of dubs seems to be cynicism in the closing stages of ai final more than anythiing. ( gaelic football is just a reasonably cynical game and while i would prefer to see dublin beat i don't see them as any more cynical than anyone else).
Has he went as far as to mention drugs?
The last 2 minutes were a disgrace imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KbVIFEFnU
Yeah. How can the allstar goalkeeper miss a free man to his left and kick it over the sideline? A disgrace alright.
Fitzgerald ripped Kimmage a new one if you asked me. I'm glad to see it. Calling the Dublin players cheats is wrong. Mayo (Lee Keegan) did the exact same stuff previously. It's cynical but it happens and the ref dealt with it. Just because it happened against poor Mayo that everyone seemed to want to win makes no difference. Dbulin are a brilliant team and I think (while they probably don't give a f**k) the coverage since the game has been unfair and unbalanced.
Chime knowingly cheated himself. It's a very emotive word and he shouldn't be using it in this case or with any amateur players. Unfortunately when you get inter county players grants/additional expenses/pay and you're into drug testing you're aslant analysis by the like of Kimmage who only seems to see the bad in everything. Or even if it's not there.
Amateur players can't cheat. What a load of bollocks.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 30, 2017, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 30, 2017, 12:06:48 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 30, 2017, 10:59:59 AM
I see kimmage has moved onto the gaa and seems to have the dubs as his latest crusade. Anyone listen to him and luke fitzgerald?
The guy at this stage just seems very demonised. His criticism of dubs seems to be cynicism in the closing stages of ai final more than anythiing. ( gaelic football is just a reasonably cynical game and while i would prefer to see dublin beat i don't see them as any more cynical than anyone else).
Has he went as far as to mention drugs?
The last 2 minutes were a disgrace imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KbVIFEFnU
Yeah. How can the allstar goalkeeper miss a free man to his left and kick it over the sideline? A disgrace alright.
Playing keep the ball in an AIF is cowardly.
What were the Dubs afraid of?
Quote from: seafoid on September 30, 2017, 03:46:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 30, 2017, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 30, 2017, 12:06:48 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 30, 2017, 10:59:59 AM
I see kimmage has moved onto the gaa and seems to have the dubs as his latest crusade. Anyone listen to him and luke fitzgerald?
The guy at this stage just seems very demonised. His criticism of dubs seems to be cynicism in the closing stages of ai final more than anythiing. ( gaelic football is just a reasonably cynical game and while i would prefer to see dublin beat i don't see them as any more cynical than anyone else).
Has he went as far as to mention drugs?
The last 2 minutes were a disgrace imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KbVIFEFnU
Yeah. How can the allstar goalkeeper miss a free man to his left and kick it over the sideline? A disgrace alright.
Playing keep the ball in an AIF is cowardly.
What were the Dubs afraid of?
Cowardly,disgrace are you serious?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 30, 2017, 03:59:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 30, 2017, 03:46:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 30, 2017, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 30, 2017, 12:06:48 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 30, 2017, 10:59:59 AM
I see kimmage has moved onto the gaa and seems to have the dubs as his latest crusade. Anyone listen to him and luke fitzgerald?
The guy at this stage just seems very demonised. His criticism of dubs seems to be cynicism in the closing stages of ai final more than anythiing. ( gaelic football is just a reasonably cynical game and while i would prefer to see dublin beat i don't see them as any more cynical than anyone else).
Has he went as far as to mention drugs?
The last 2 minutes were a disgrace imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KbVIFEFnU
Yeah. How can the allstar goalkeeper miss a free man to his left and kick it over the sideline? A disgrace alright.
Playing keep the ball in an AIF is cowardly.
What were the Dubs afraid of?
Cowardly,disgrace are you serious?
Playing keep ball is totally sensible and within the rules, the cynical stuff ain't. You dont attack and risk getting turned over. What you have you hold at that stage.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 30, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
Fitzgerald ripped Kimmage a new one if you asked me. I'm glad to see it. Calling the Dublin players cheats is wrong. Mayo (Lee Keegan) did the exact same stuff previously. It's cynical but it happens and the ref dealt with it. Just because it happened against poor Mayo that everyone seemed to want to win makes no difference. Dbulin are a brilliant team and I think (while they probably don't give a f**k) the coverage since the game has been unfair and unbalanced.
Chime knowingly cheated himself. It's a very emotive word and he shouldn't be using it in this case or with any amateur players. Unfortunately when you get inter county players grants/additional expenses/pay and you're into drug testing you're aslant analysis by the like of Kimmage who only seems to see the bad in everything. Or even if it's not there.
I thought Jimmy Magee died last week. Looks like I might have thought wrong.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 30, 2017, 03:59:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 30, 2017, 03:46:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 30, 2017, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 30, 2017, 12:06:48 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 30, 2017, 10:59:59 AM
I see kimmage has moved onto the gaa and seems to have the dubs as his latest crusade. Anyone listen to him and luke fitzgerald?
The guy at this stage just seems very demonised. His criticism of dubs seems to be cynicism in the closing stages of ai final more than anythiing. ( gaelic football is just a reasonably cynical game and while i would prefer to see dublin beat i don't see them as any more cynical than anyone else).
Has he went as far as to mention drugs?
The last 2 minutes were a disgrace imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KbVIFEFnU
Yeah. How can the allstar goalkeeper miss a free man to his left and kick it over the sideline? A disgrace alright.
Playing keep the ball in an AIF is cowardly.
What were the Dubs afraid of?
Cowardly,disgrace are you serious?
Passing the ball back to the keeper . FFS
I didn't realise it was soccer.
I think of this when i see Pauls rants
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/044/247/297.png)
Kimmage is ultra consistent with his moral indignation and pursuit of cheats, there's no grey areas with him, It must be totally exhausting. I greatly admire him but he annoys the f**k out of me at times as well, a lot of innuendo and half truths fired about without evidence, but then again I do realise he's entitled to air his suspicions. What I find most annoying is the basking in reflected glory sycophants who weigh in behind him on every twitter spat, but then again the Dubs, Rugger buggers, cyclists all close ranks when he has the bit between his teeth against them.
I'm with him on the Dubs thing, they did cheat and he called it, but I would have done the same in their situation so I wouldn't care if anyone called my a cheat in such circumstances tbh.
What is clean? Kimmage said that a year or more ago and it's a question with lots & lots of answers and even more questions.
He's a fantastic journalist.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 30, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
Fitzgerald ripped Kimmage a new one if you asked me.
Chime knowingly cheated himself. It's a very emotive word and he shouldn't be using it in this case or with any amateur players. Unfortunately when you get inter county players grants/additional expenses/pay and you're into drug testing you're aslant analysis by the like of Kimmage who only seems to see the bad in everything. Or even if it's not there.
Hahaha, pull the other one. Fitzgerald went immediately on the defensive when it came to rugby and his response to Kimmage telling him that one of his sources was a rugby teammate, Fitzgerald started talking shite
Fitzgerald made an absolute eejit of himself on several occasions and the "kimmage knowingly cheated" line was the only thing he could come back to - nor that it was even in any way relevant to the discussion.
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 02:22:03 PM
So if you're physically unable to perform, then take something that allows you perform, that's not performance enhancing? Honestly?
Pain killers won't help you perform, if your muscle is pulled etc no pain killer will help that. It allows you play through pain and are widely used in all sports. If we took this approach you wouldn't be allowed take an addadin for a headache
Quote from: Itchy on September 30, 2017, 05:31:38 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 02:22:03 PM
So if you're physically unable to perform, then take something that allows you perform, that's not performance enhancing? Honestly?
Pain killers won't help you perform, if your muscle is pulled etc no pain killer will help that. It allows you play through pain and are widely used in all sports. If we took this approach you wouldn't be allowed take an addadin for a headache
What and cortisone shots?
The tablet for a headache analogy came up during the discussion.
I think enabling you to perform when you otherwise couldn't is, by definition, performance enhancing. Agree to disagree.
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on September 30, 2017, 05:31:38 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 02:22:03 PM
So if you're physically unable to perform, then take something that allows you perform, that's not performance enhancing? Honestly?
Pain killers won't help you perform, if your muscle is pulled etc no pain killer will help that. It allows you play through pain and are widely used in all sports. If we took this approach you wouldn't be allowed take an addadin for a headache
What and cortisone shots?
The tablet for a headache analogy came up during the discussion.
I think enabling you to perform when you otherwise couldn't is, by definition, performance enhancing. Agree to disagree.
In my first post I did say what I thought of people using them but I also don't think you can define those people as cheats.
Is taking a painkilling injection cheating? If so I cheated several times.
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
Is taking a painkilling injection cheating? If so I cheated several times.
Is taking painkillers when you don't need them?
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 08:38:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
Is taking a painkilling injection cheating? If so I cheated several times.
Is taking painkillers when you don't need them?
That's not what you said earlier. You said taking a headache tablet or something.
If you take a substance that is banned then it's cheating, if it's not banned it's not cheating.
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 09:09:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 08:38:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
Is taking a painkilling injection cheating? If so I cheated several times.
Is taking painkillers when you don't need them?
That's not what you said earlier. You said taking a headache tablet or something.
If you take a substance that is banned then it's cheating, if it's not banned it's not cheating.
You're putting words in my mouth. I said it was performance enhancing.
Have you listened to the debate? There are very clear distinctions made and different parts of it cover different topics - what is defined as cheating, what is performance enhancing etc.
As for your final point, that's complete and utter bollocks. If it's not on the banned list it's fine, take whatever you want?! Non asthmatics using inhalers for example?
Also, this isn't me being a p***k and I like your posts on this forum a lot but if you're going to involve yourself in a debate, this isn't really good enough.
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 09:15:29 PM
That's not what you said earlier. You said taking a headache tablet or something.
You can't tell me what I did or didn't say and then say I said "...or something". At least read the posts.
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 09:09:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 08:38:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
Is taking a painkilling injection cheating? If so I cheated several times.
Is taking painkillers when you don't need them?
That's not what you said earlier. You said taking a headache tablet or something.
If you take a substance that is banned then it's cheating, if it's not banned it's not cheating.
What about a plethora of tue? And what makes a substance banned?
For example what about the disproportionate number of sport men's who are asmatic?
I listened to the 'encounter' between Luke and Paul. Fwiw I thought Kimmage, for one who's supposed to be so tough and a veteran firebrand (in his opinion), he's way too sensitive and uptight about his own sense of self righteousness. His comments on the heroic 3 in a row Dubs were quite frankly farcical and ridiculous. He doth protest way too much, way out of proportion to the discussion at hand.
Btw, Fitzgerald's comments about Kimmage being a drug sinner were also ridiculous.
Some people just can't accept Kimmages hoesty. He is a brilliant journalist however and the problem is that he so brutally honest and straight to the point that people can't accept it. I thought he went a slight bit OTT on the Gavin press conference although he did also have a point. However the hysterical reaction of a large portion of Dublin fans was funny. People can accept criticism just as long as it is not on their own doorstep. Kimmage has never compromised his principles for money. Fitzgerald was totally out of his depth and whilst I sort of expected him to get schooled, the least he could have done was a little bit of research before the podcast took place.
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 09:15:29 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 09:09:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 30, 2017, 08:38:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 30, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
Is taking a painkilling injection cheating? If so I cheated several times.
Is taking painkillers when you don't need them?
That's not what you said earlier. You said taking a headache tablet or something.
If you take a substance that is banned then it's cheating, if it's not banned it's not cheating.
You're putting words in my mouth. I said it was performance enhancing.
Have you listened to the debate? There are very clear distinctions made and different parts of it cover different topics - what is defined as cheating, what is performance enhancing etc.
As for your final point, that's complete and utter bollocks. If it's not on the banned list it's fine, take whatever you want?! Non asthmatics using inhalers for example?
Performance enhancing has a clear implication of cheating these days. If you are being pedantic, then yes you are right. But then again everything is Performance Enhancing. Training enhances your performance. New Boots can enhance your performance. Fecking first aid and physio are performance enhancing if they allow you to perform at a higher level than you would with a tight hammy or a cut over your eye.
I think it was you, but someone said about taking headache tablets. If you have a headache and couldn't play without a tablet, then I don't see that as cheating, if it is nonetheless performance enhancing.
Hence my comment about banned v not banned. If you take cocaine because it gives you a mad burst of energy, just before a game, that's performance enhancing and cheating. If you take an anadin because you have a sore head, it's not.
If you take an inhaler, because you realise it gives you more aerobic capacity, but you don't need it? that's performance enhancing and cheating.
If you take an inhaler because you are asthmatic, that is performance enhancing but not cheating.
There's nothing pedantic about it. Whether something is performance enhancing or not it's a matter of fact. Either it does or it doesn't. We'll agree to disagree.
What about if you have a prescription for asthma but abuse it for physical gain? Is that cheating?
Half the discussion was about the actual concept of what is cheating/what is performance enhancing etc. Kimmage agreed that taking a paracetamol for a headache isn't cheating. I would agree. Routinely taking painkillers twice a day throughout your career would be cheating in my view too.
Quote from: yellowcard on September 30, 2017, 11:22:00 PM
Some people just can't accept Kimmages hoesty. He is a brilliant journalist however and the problem is that he so brutally honest and straight to the point that people can't accept it. I thought he went a slight bit OTT on the Gavin press conference although he did also have a point. However the hysterical reaction of a large portion of Dublin fans was funny. People can accept criticism just as long as it is not on their own doorstep. Kimmage has never compromised his principles for money. Fitzgerald was totally out of his depth and whilst I sort of expected him to get schooled, the least he could have done was a little bit of research before the podcast took place.
Journalism is like everything else. Most of it is crap. Kimmage isn't.
Quote from: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 12:08:39 PM
There's nothing pedantic about it. Whether something is performance enhancing or not it's a matter of fact. Either it does or it doesn't. We'll agree to disagree.
What about if you have a prescription for asthma but abuse it for physical gain? Is that cheating?
Half the discussion was about the actual concept of what is cheating/what is performance enhancing etc. Kimmage agreed that taking a paracetamol for a headache isn't cheating. I would agree. Routinely taking painkillers twice a day throughout your career would be cheating in my view too.
I agree with most of that. I just think you are ascribing a nefarious motive to perfectly normal activities and calling them 'performance enhancing' to make a point. Performance enhancing is not a dirty phrase. Performance enhancing using illegal methods is cheating.
So I absolutely agree, taking painkillers to dull feeling in rugby for example, when you don't need them, is cheating.
Taking an inhaler to excess when you don't need to is cheating too.
Taking paracetemol for a headache or a sore arm is not.
If we want to argue about cheating, lets define cheating, and take it from there. I don't think we'd argue much at all.
Quote from: bennydorano on September 30, 2017, 04:48:09 PM
Kimmage is ultra consistent with his moral indignation and pursuit of cheats, there's no grey areas with him, It must be totally exhausting. I greatly admire him but he annoys the f**k out of me at times as well, a lot of innuendo and half truths fired about without evidence, but then again I do realise he's entitled to air his suspicions. What I find most annoying is the basking in reflected glory sycophants who weigh in behind him on every twitter spat, but then again the Dubs, Rugger buggers, cyclists all close ranks when he has the bit between his teeth against them.
I'm with him on the Dubs thing, they did cheat and he called it, but I would have done the same in their situation so I wouldn't care if anyone called my a cheat in such circumstances tbh.
What is clean? Kimmage said that a year or more ago and it's a question with lots & lots of answers and even more questions.
He's a fantastic journalist.
The libel laws in this country are very severe Benny. The onus of proof on a journalist is the more or less the same as needed for a criminal conviction. It shouldn't be. The journalist's job should be to raise legitimate questions, but he or she can't do that if the person being questioned then sues and the publisher can't take the risk of going bust in the courts.
People are confused about this because US culture is so big in our culture. In the US, you can publish before and after pictures of football players and ask if someone got that big through steroids. If you do it here, you get the solicitor's letter in the morning and no publisher is currently willing to risk losing so much money over a case that, if won, won't make the publication any money in the long run. Who changes paper because someone defended a libel case?
You might remember a book was published a few years ago called GAAconomics: https://www.amazon.co.uk/GAAconomics-Secret-Life-Money-GAA-ebook/dp/B00EQ8J11G. Who was named as being paid to play/manage in that book? Nobody. And we all know it's going on. That's what the libel laws do to open debate in this country.
The flip side is that someone is named in the wrong and then they're vilified for the whole "no smoke without fire" nature of Irish Society!!
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 01, 2017, 02:01:45 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 12:08:39 PM
There's nothing pedantic about it. Whether something is performance enhancing or not it's a matter of fact. Either it does or it doesn't. We'll agree to disagree.
What about if you have a prescription for asthma but abuse it for physical gain? Is that cheating?
Half the discussion was about the actual concept of what is cheating/what is performance enhancing etc. Kimmage agreed that taking a paracetamol for a headache isn't cheating. I would agree. Routinely taking painkillers twice a day throughout your career would be cheating in my view too.
I agree with most of that. I just think you are ascribing a nefarious motive to perfectly normal activities and calling them 'performance enhancing' to make a point. Performance enhancing is not a dirty phrase. Performance enhancing using illegal methods is cheating.
So I absolutely agree, taking painkillers to dull feeling in rugby for example, when you don't need them, is cheating.
Taking an inhaler to excess when you don't need to is cheating too.
Taking paracetemol for a headache or a sore arm is not.
If we want to argue about cheating, lets define cheating, and take it from there. I don't think we'd argue much at all.
I'm not ascribing anything to anything. Again, you've joined the debate late so have perhaps missed the context.
Part of what Kimmage was trying to get across was a whole discussion about what do phrases likes "performance enhancing" and "cheating" actually mean - that's the context of discussions around painkillers/cortisone shots/inhalers etc. Fitzgerald, displaying his idiocy, struggled badly with this.
It comes back to the claim by Fitzgerald that if done under medical supervision, it's ok. You yourself initially said "If you take a substance that is banned then it's cheating, if it's not banned it's not cheating." This is clearly bollocks.
In reality doping/performance enhancing/cheating isn't black and white - it's very, very grey.
I just listened to.it. Kimmage wiped the floor with him. I think rugby is fucked. If it isn't concussion it will be addiction that kills it.
And the Dubs were a disgrace
I took a few notes
Fitz : Inside the setup. They are endeavouring to do their best. Are you angry. Have they got things wrong. I am sure they have. I am not a doctor. First generation of players with this ultra muscle physique. We have entrusted the doctors. WADA are in all the time.
PK : Concerns about player health. Benezech
Médicalisation of performance in rugby. Cortisone . Anti inflammatoires. Caffeine. Painkillers. Addiction.
You don't know what I know. You don't know who has spoken to me.
Fitz : Under the direction of a doctor . Within the rules of the sport.
PK Lewis Moody. Inflammation of the colon.
Those are the rules. You go through them to show me where it is ok to do what Dublin did last Sunday. 37:00
Three Mayo players are wrestled to the ground in the last few minutes. Disgraceful way to win all Ireland. Cheating.
Fitz The bully thing. Incredibly aggressive. People are afraid of you. I think you are a bully
I would see it as taking something that improves your base/normal performance as performance enhancing as wrong. While taking something that just helps you to perform, but not beyond your normal standards as not performance enhancing or headache tablets and the likes. Not an easy thing to define.
Quote from: seafoid on October 01, 2017, 08:01:28 PM
I just listened to.it. Kimmage wiped the floor with him. I think rugby is fucked. If it isn't concussion it will be addiction that kills it.
And the Dubs were a disgrace
I took a few notes
Fitz : Inside the setup. They are endeavouring to do their best. Are you angry. Have they got things wrong. I am sure they have. I am not a doctor. First generation of players with this ultra muscle physique. We have entrusted the doctors. WADA are in all the time.
PK : Concerns about player health. Benezech
Médicalisation of performance in rugby. Cortisone . Anti inflammatoires. Caffeine. Painkillers. Addiction.
You don't know what I know. You don't know who has spoken to me.
Fitz : Under the direction of a doctor . Within the rules of the sport.
PK Lewis Moody. Inflammation of the colon.
Those are the rules. You go through them to show me where it is ok to do what Dublin did last Sunday. 37:00
Three Mayo players are wrestled to the ground in the last few minutes. Disgraceful way to win all Ireland. Cheating.
Fitz The bully thing. Incredibly aggressive. People are afraid of you. I think you are a bully
I actually agree with you. The only time Fitzgerald was coherent really was when he clearly outlined why he thinks Kimmage is a bully. For what it's worth I think he has a very aggressive debating technique, has veered into obsession with this issue, and is quite an angry man.
However, none of that precludes him from being right, and while I think it's a bit uncomfortable for someone who is so vocal on drugs in sport starting to speak about cynicism in a team game, I think he may be spot on about Rugby. Again I stood in Thomond Park on Saturday and just marvelled at the punishment these guys give out and take, and they'll do it again next week. Then you look at the sheer size of them. Something is wrong there.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 10:11:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on October 01, 2017, 08:01:28 PM
I just listened to.it. Kimmage wiped the floor with him. I think rugby is fucked. If it isn't concussion it will be addiction that kills it.
And the Dubs were a disgrace
I took a few notes
Fitz : Inside the setup. They are endeavouring to do their best. Are you angry. Have they got things wrong. I am sure they have. I am not a doctor. First generation of players with this ultra muscle physique. We have entrusted the doctors. WADA are in all the time.
PK : Concerns about player health. Benezech
Médicalisation of performance in rugby. Cortisone . Anti inflammatoires. Caffeine. Painkillers. Addiction.
You don't know what I know. You don't know who has spoken to me.
Fitz : Under the direction of a doctor . Within the rules of the sport.
PK Lewis Moody. Inflammation of the colon.
Those are the rules. You go through them to show me where it is ok to do what Dublin did last Sunday. 37:00
Three Mayo players are wrestled to the ground in the last few minutes. Disgraceful way to win all Ireland. Cheating.
Fitz The bully thing. Incredibly aggressive. People are afraid of you. I think you are a bully
I actually agree with you. The only time Fitzgerald was coherent really was when he clearly outlined why he thinks Kimmage is a bully. For what it's worth I think he has a very aggressive debating technique, has veered into obsession with this issue, and is quite an angry man.
However, none of that precludes him from being right, and while I think it's a bit uncomfortable for someone who is so vocal on drugs in sport starting to speak about cynicism in a team game, I think he may be spot on about Rugby. Again I stood in Thomond Park on Saturday and just marvelled at the punishment these guys give out and take, and they'll do it again next week. Then you look at the sheer size of them. Something is wrong there.
Calling him a bully is a STFU technique. Fitz kept on coming back to the same points. In the setup. Approved by doctors.
And he was passive aggressive. He would not engage with the facts. He kept on repeating that Kimmage was a cheat. I think he was projecting. He is a bully. Bullies project what they are onto other people. I thought Fitz was very aggressive and underhand.
In his book Carbon Detox, George Marshall argues that people are not persuaded by information. Our views are formed by the views of the people with whom we mix. Of the narratives that might penetrate these circles, we are more likely to listen to those that offer us some reward.
Everyone Fitz knows says there is no problem. The IRFU says there is no problem. Same with concussion. That kid in Ballymena died. Nothing changed.
Rugby is a sport of attrition. We do not know the damage that they are doing to themselves.
There have never been players as big as they are now. There is a freak show aspect to the photos of players and their girlfriends at awards ceremonies.
Could I suggest that the level of debate on this subject, automatically precludes Kimmage from being right? If most of the posters here follow through their train of thoughts, you end up at there being a lot of ambiguity and grey areas. So how can you support the view point of Kimmage, who is completely black and white on the subject? I don't think nuance is a cop out. Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between a yellow card offence and systemic doping is either a moron, or trying to win an argument. At all costs. Said argument started about winning. At all costs. Kimmage obviously doesn't do irony.
I didn't listen to this debate as I believe the whole premise (ie. that Dublin's "actions" in the last two minutes are the same as a premeditated conspiracy to dope) was conflated to make headlines for Newstalk. Well done them. I did listen to the paper review the previous week, and I thought Kimmage was a disgrace. He is aggressive, ignorant and completely dismissive of others. I don't think writing "Rough Ride" or pursuing Lance Armstrong, admirable and heroic as both were, entitles someone to moral carte blanche or permanent occupancy of the high horse for the rest of their natural lives.
Again, with the irony - Kimmage's own reputation as a crusader rests on there being a crusade - and this one re the Dubs is a complete media creation. Listen to the paper review again, and Gavin's mortal sin with Kimmage appears to be having a truculent attitude and being 20 minutes late to a press conference. Having spent a lot of my working life waiting for managers to appear at interviews such as the one in Croke Park, I'll tell you, 20 mins after a trophy was given, was actually a result for the journos. Of course, not all of them had to go off to visit their mothers in Beaumont hospital - which kimmage actually says!
I notice people talking about libel and this is why Kimmage has to cover his truth telling in allusions and metaphors. Well it could also be that he is a controversialist and a catastrophe tourist - he takes day trips to sports he doesn't know well, latches on to one "fact" that he leverages into a narrative, reaps the whirlwind, and walks away.
And what is left? Well, I could say that he has tarnished the dubs three in a row, but he hasn't and this will be forgotten about before long. But he has tarnished his reputation for me (not that he'd care) - but to invest such anger and vitriol into something so clearlynot substantive makes me wonder about all his other crusades and which windmill he will be tilting at next.
You should listen to it easytiger. To be honest it's not that much about the Dubs in the end, it's more about Kimmage's problems with Fitzgerald's tweets. For such a crusader, he has remarkably thin skin.
He is right about Rugby though.
The Dubs only get mentioned at the end.
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 02, 2017, 11:03:17 AM
I didn't listen to this debate as I believe the whole premise (ie. that Dublin's "actions" in the last two minutes are the same as a premeditated conspiracy to dope) was conflated to make headlines for Newstalk. Well done them.
Well that's where you start being wrong. Badly wrong. Kimmage's article was in the Sindo, they engaged on Twitter and then the debate was on an independent.ie podcast.
As I have said several times, the debate was largely around discussing what the actual concept of "cheating" is. There was no equivalence drawn between Dublin's tactics and systematic doping. He acknowledged that there are degrees of cheating. He considers those tactics cheating, you don't. It's a matter of opinion.
Quote from: gallsman on October 02, 2017, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 02, 2017, 11:03:17 AM
I didn't listen to this debate as I believe the whole premise (ie. that Dublin's "actions" in the last two minutes are the same as a premeditated conspiracy to dope) was conflated to make headlines for Newstalk. Well done them.
Well that's where you start being wrong. Badly wrong. Kimmage's article was in the Sindo, they engaged on Twitter and then the debate was on an independent.ie podcast.
As I have said several times, the debate was largely around discussing what the actual concept of "cheating" is. There was no equivalence drawn between Dublin's tactics and systematic doping. He acknowledged that there are degrees of cheating. He considers those tactics cheating, you don't. It's a matter of opinion.
I don't think misidentifying a podcast is an example of being "wrong. badly wrong" - you'll notice most of my post was taken up with the performance of his that I did listen to - the paper review the previous week. And in his last two articles, he has taken on the idea that "win at all costs" attitude, which he accuses the dubs of having,
is comparable to systemic cheats like Lance Armstrong.
I'm sorry guys, mea culpa for not listening to that particular podcast, but I really think that there are little enough real achievements in global sport without tearing down one genuinely worthy of note for no substantive reason bar keeping journalists in a press room for 20 minutes.
The problem here was that the country wanted Mayo to win, completely understandably. The Dubs went all out to beat the one opponent who have always tested them. If you want to see what Mayo would have done to protect a one point win, please look at the last five minutes of the 2012 game. Anyone, anyone, who has ever played a team sport is familiar with the concept of taking one for the team. And this is where Kimmage falls down in my humble opinion.
Anyhoo...I kind of agree about the rugby though. :D
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 11:06:20 AM
You should listen to it easytiger. To be honest it's not that much about the Dubs in the end, it's more about Kimmage's problems with Fitzgerald's tweets. For such a crusader, he has remarkably thin skin.
He is right about Rugby though.
Although Kimmage has a valid argument in some regards, I agree with Fitzgerald that he is a bully.
He only wanted to engage with him on his terms and constantly talked over him and was overly aggressive IMO.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 02, 2017, 11:40:56 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 11:06:20 AM
You should listen to it easytiger. To be honest it's not that much about the Dubs in the end, it's more about Kimmage's problems with Fitzgerald's tweets. For such a crusader, he has remarkably thin skin.
He is right about Rugby though.
Although Kimmage has a valid argument in some regards, I agree with Fitzgerald that he is a bully.
He only wanted to engage with him on his terms and constantly talked over him and was overly aggressive IMO.
I do too. I find him a hard listen, but as I said that in itself doesn't preclude him from being right a lot of the time.
Kimmage is a bully but Fitzgerald was the bully on the podcast. We don't have all day, Paul. When are we going to get to the point, Paul. Why haven't you identified your sources, isn't that very convenient, Paul.
Quote from: gallsman on October 02, 2017, 11:48:32 AM
Kimmage is a bully but Fitzgerald was the bully on the podcast. We don't have all day, Paul. When are we going to get to the point, Paul. Why haven't you identified your sources, isn't that very convenient, Paul.
I think Fitzgerald was out of his depth. I'd say he puked in his mouth when he saw all the backup material. (None of which related to the Dubs obviously!)
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 11:52:34 AM
Quote from: gallsman on October 02, 2017, 11:48:32 AM
Kimmage is a bully but Fitzgerald was the bully on the podcast. We don't have all day, Paul. When are we going to get to the point, Paul. Why haven't you identified your sources, isn't that very convenient, Paul.
I think Fitzgerald was out of his depth. I'd say he puked in his mouth when he saw all the backup material. (None of which related to the Dubs obviously!)
Fitzgerald weighing in on his Dubs piece was just lighting the touchpaper really.
Calling Dublin cheats is just bullshit, headline and attention grabbing shit unless he calls every gaelic football team who has done the same "cheats" also. I have a lot of admiration for what Kimmage has done but think he's very vain and very unlikable. I was glad to see Fitzgerald stand up to him.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 11:52:34 AM
Quote from: gallsman on October 02, 2017, 11:48:32 AM
Kimmage is a bully but Fitzgerald was the bully on the podcast. We don't have all day, Paul. When are we going to get to the point, Paul. Why haven't you identified your sources, isn't that very convenient, Paul.
I think Fitzgerald was out of his depth. I'd say he puked in his mouth when he saw all the backup material. (None of which related to the Dubs obviously!)
Apart from.the rules for Gaelic football
It is interesting to compare Kimmage's article the Monday before the match with what he wrote after the match. The last 2 minutes were a disgrace.
Fitzgerald came across very badly in the discussion.
A deranged loon . He has no authority to speak
Quote from: INDIANA on October 02, 2017, 02:12:56 PM
A deranged loon . He has no authority to speak
and as for Paul Kimmage
Quote from: INDIANA on October 02, 2017, 02:12:56 PM
A deranged loon . He has no authority to speak
projection
Kimmage is a p***k but amusing that he is right about cyclling, rugby etc but wrong about the GAA. He's not the only one with thin skin.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 02, 2017, 03:52:49 PM
Kimmage is a p***k but amusing that he is right about cyclling, rugby etc but wrong about the GAA. He's not the only one with thin skin.
What has he said about the GAA? I thought he said the GAA seemed ok? He was on about cheating and cynical play. I don't think there's much wrong with amateur rugby either. I wouldn't think steroid or HGH or anything like that is a problem in the GAA, but I'm sure some lads are doing stupid stuff. With all the supplements and other bits and bobs going on now, I'm not naive enough to think there's nobody trying to get clever. Probably only a matter of time before there's a big name catch.
Kimmage had a pop over Brendan O'Sullivan before and the whole handling of it and took Marc O'Sé apart in a debate on the Last Word I think. Personally I think he is right about how Dublin closed out the AI final, the problem though is not Dublin but the punishment, it doesn't fit the crime and Kieran Shannon addressed that well. Sport evolves but the GAA rule making process is archaic and doesn't evolve at the same rate. Kimmage makes one think, very strong in his convictions but it's all black and white and he never offers solutions.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 02, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
Kimmage had a pop over Brendan O'Sullivan before and the whole handling of it and took Marc O'Sé apart in a debate on the Last Word I think. Personally I think he is right about how Dublin closed out the AI final, the problem though is not Dublin but the punishment, it doesn't fit the crime and Kieran Shannon addressed that well. Sport evolves but the GAA rule making process is archaic and doesn't evolve at the same rate. Kimmage makes one think, very strong in his convictions but it's all black and white and he never offers solutions.
Yep, agree with all that. I think the hackles go up when someone like Kimmage, with his background and campaigns on drugs in sport, takes on the Dubs about cynical play. He probably didn't mean it as such, but it can come across as if there's an equivalence there.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 04:11:37 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 02, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
Kimmage had a pop over Brendan O'Sullivan before and the whole handling of it and took Marc O'Sé apart in a debate on the Last Word I think. Personally I think he is right about how Dublin closed out the AI final, the problem though is not Dublin but the punishment, it doesn't fit the crime and Kieran Shannon addressed that well. Sport evolves but the GAA rule making process is archaic and doesn't evolve at the same rate. Kimmage makes one think, very strong in his convictions but it's all black and white and he never offers solutions.
Yep, agree with all that. I think the hackles go up when someone like Kimmage, with his background and campaigns on drugs in sport, takes on the Dubs about cynical play. He probably didn't mean it as such, but it can come across as if there's an equivalence there.
He was talking about cheating.
You can't win a football match by holding onto the ball and passing back to the goalie. At least you couldn't before the AIF.
Kimmage is a Dubs fan BTW
http://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/paul-kimmage/paul-kimmage-i-am-moved-to-tears-when-dublin-win-but-how-can-i-not-cheer-for-mayo-next-weekend-36116597.html
He is in his arse.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 04:11:37 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 02, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
Kimmage had a pop over Brendan O'Sullivan before and the whole handling of it and took Marc O'Sé apart in a debate on the Last Word I think. Personally I think he is right about how Dublin closed out the AI final, the problem though is not Dublin but the punishment, it doesn't fit the crime and Kieran Shannon addressed that well. Sport evolves but the GAA rule making process is archaic and doesn't evolve at the same rate. Kimmage makes one think, very strong in his convictions but it's all black and white and he never offers solutions.
Yep, agree with all that. I think the hackles go up when someone like Kimmage, with his background and campaigns on drugs in sport, takes on the Dubs about cynical play. He probably didn't mean it as such, but it can come across as if there's an equivalence there.
He was talking about cheating.
You can't win a football match by holding onto the ball and passing back to the goalie. At least you couldn't before the AIF.
Kimmage is a Dubs fan BTW
http://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/paul-kimmage/paul-kimmage-i-am-moved-to-tears-when-dublin-win-but-how-can-i-not-cheer-for-mayo-next-weekend-36116597.html
Mayo done the same thing against Tyrone last year
Yeah - he can't call Dublin cheats unless he's willing to call everyone who employ cynical tactics the same. He's off his rocker, talking about something he knows f**k all about.
Has he ever watched an ulster championship game? (Speaking as someone from ulster!) or worse... Watched schools football?
Dublin do have a bit of cynicism in them however you win nothing without it and they are far from the worst.
Good discussion to be had but to have it properly, it would need to be de-personalised. In this instance, it was Dublin but the problem at hand has nothing to do with Dublin or Lee Keegan or whoever's face you want to put on it.
The fact is that this sort of thing is cheating the same way diving is cheating but it's somehow more acceptable. Very difficult to pull the game back from that without some sort of drastic rule change.
On the interview itself, Kimmage destroyed Fitz as evidenced by Fitz's repeated references to kimmage being a drugs cheat. That said, Kimmage's style always comes across as shouty / angry even though he usually has excellent points to make. The upside for Fitz is that this podcast is likely to be his most listened to yet, no such thing as bad publicity and all that.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.
So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 02, 2017, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.
So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.
You are no longer a fan or supporter of the Dublin senior football team then which i believe is the same with Paul Kimmage though i have my doubts if he was one to begin with.
Supporter --------- a person who is actively interested in and wishes success for a particular sports team
Fan short for fanatic ----------- a person with an obsessive interest in and enthusiasm for a particular sports team
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
I know a few Chelsea fans who have a soft spot for Liverpool.
Yes, and I have a soft spot for Coventry City, Connacht Rugby, and Limerick and Waterford hurling, and Mayogodhelpus, Kerry, and a few other counties. But when they play my team, or my county I never want them to win.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 02, 2017, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.
So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.
Are you actually serious? I cannot understand that mentality at all. Kimmage wanted Mayo to win alright but he isn't a Dublin fan. He's a casual observer. He isn't a gaa head. Anybody who follows their team with a passion will never want them to lose.
We might have gone through several periods over the years where we were shit but I can honestly say i never once ever wanted the Galway footballers to lose any game.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 03, 2017, 09:13:01 AM
Yes, and I have a soft spot for Coventry City, Connacht Rugby, and Limerick and Waterford hurling, and Mayogodhelpus, Kerry, and a few other counties. But when they play my team, or my county I never want them to win.
I'm the same AZ whenever Man Ure play any team I will back that team 100% to beat Utd until the final whistle!!
I'd be a fan of Kimmage and his writings and investigations over the years so willing to cut him a bit of slack on this. I do find his holier than thou black/white argument a bit tiring at times and his assertion re Gavin and the press conference on the radio that morning was spiteful and crazy. I deliberately didn't listen to the podcast with Fitzgerald - As he says himself I may be an asshole but at least I'm a consistent asshole
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 03, 2017, 09:13:01 AM
Yes, and I have a soft spot for Coventry City, Connacht Rugby, and Limerick and Waterford hurling, and Mayogodhelpus, Kerry, and a few other counties. But when they play my team, or my county I never want them to win.
If Galway hurlers won 5 All Irelands over a space of 7 years and beat Waterford in 3 of them I wouldnt begrudge them one. But I wouldnt extend that to the big 3.
Quote from: Declan on October 03, 2017, 09:57:00 AM
I'd be a fan of Kimmage and his writings and investigations over the years so willing to cut him a bit of slack on this. I do find his holier than thou black/white argument a bit tiring at times and his assertion re Gavin and the press conference on the radio that morning was spiteful and crazy. I deliberately didn't listen to the podcast with Fitzgerald - As he says himself I may be an asshole but at least I'm a consistent asshole
I'd be a fan of Kimmage's writing also. The books he has written were excellent and his articles (when not bleating on about doping in sport every week) can be really good too.
He is extremely painful to listen to though on radio/podcasts.
A great man for talking down to people and shouting people down to make himself heard.
Quote from: seafoid on October 03, 2017, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 03, 2017, 09:13:01 AM
Yes, and I have a soft spot for Coventry City, Connacht Rugby, and Limerick and Waterford hurling, and Mayogodhelpus, Kerry, and a few other counties. But when they play my team, or my county I never want them to win.
If Galway hurlers won 5 All Irelands over a space of 7 years and beat Waterford in 3 of them I wouldnt begrudge them one. But I wouldnt extend that to the big 3.
There is a difference I think between not begrudging the team that beats you their success and actively wanting them to beat your team though all the same.
Quote from: seafoid on October 03, 2017, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 03, 2017, 09:13:01 AM
Yes, and I have a soft spot for Coventry City, Connacht Rugby, and Limerick and Waterford hurling, and Mayogodhelpus, Kerry, and a few other counties. But when they play my team, or my county I never want them to win.
If Galway hurlers won 5 All Irelands over a space of 7 years and beat Waterford in 3 of them I wouldnt begrudge them one. But I wouldnt extend that to the big 3.
Not begrudging is not the same as actively hoping they win.
Quote from: galwayman on October 03, 2017, 09:48:24 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 02, 2017, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.
So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.
Are you actually serious? I cannot understand that mentality at all. Kimmage wanted Mayo to win alright but he isn't a Dublin fan. He's a casual observer. He isn't a gaa head. Anybody who follows their team with a passion will never want them to lose.
We might have gone through several periods over the years where we were shit but I can honestly say i never once ever wanted the Galway footballers to lose any game.
Damn right I'm serious and you wouldn't understand unless you were from Dublin. Galway footballers never threatened to turn the entirety of inter-county football into a procession.
It was far more enjoyable following the Dublin footballers when they weren't the faceless, remorseless machine they are now. There was some element of doubt as to who would win 95% of matches they were involved in, for a start, so there was an element of what's called sporting competition. Now there isn't. That gets very boring after a while if you have the capability to see beyond the county you come from and consider the well being of the game as a whole.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 04:11:37 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 02, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
Kimmage had a pop over Brendan O'Sullivan before and the whole handling of it and took Marc O'Sé apart in a debate on the Last Word I think. Personally I think he is right about how Dublin closed out the AI final, the problem though is not Dublin but the punishment, it doesn't fit the crime and Kieran Shannon addressed that well. Sport evolves but the GAA rule making process is archaic and doesn't evolve at the same rate. Kimmage makes one think, very strong in his convictions but it's all black and white and he never offers solutions.
Yep, agree with all that. I think the hackles go up when someone like Kimmage, with his background and campaigns on drugs in sport, takes on the Dubs about cynical play. He probably didn't mean it as such, but it can come across as if there's an equivalence there.
Is this not a great example of the media putting something forward, and the whole world taking it as gospel without engaging their own brains.
For the actual final kickout there was no Dublin cynical play, no Dublin players lying on top of a Mayo player. In an alternate universe had Mayo used their extra man to successfully execute that kickout and then worked the ball up to a scoreable position and got the equalizer, the narrative could have been all about how the rules are working. How the ref correctly punished the Dubs with a black card and how Mayo used the extra man to engineer an equaliser.
But because the keeper kicked it over the sideline, suddenly the whole reason Dublin held on was because of cynicism and that the rules don't punish it. It's nonsense!!
The "cheating" thing is what gets me. Players take more that 4 steps which is against the rules all the time - are they "cheats"? Players pull jersies all the time which is against the rules - are they "cheats"? What's the threshold to become a "cheat"?
For someone who's supposed to be consistent Kimmage shows a massive amount of inconsistency in this case.
Quote from: Hound on October 03, 2017, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 04:11:37 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 02, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
Kimmage had a pop over Brendan O'Sullivan before and the whole handling of it and took Marc O'Sé apart in a debate on the Last Word I think. Personally I think he is right about how Dublin closed out the AI final, the problem though is not Dublin but the punishment, it doesn't fit the crime and Kieran Shannon addressed that well. Sport evolves but the GAA rule making process is archaic and doesn't evolve at the same rate. Kimmage makes one think, very strong in his convictions but it's all black and white and he never offers solutions.
Yep, agree with all that. I think the hackles go up when someone like Kimmage, with his background and campaigns on drugs in sport, takes on the Dubs about cynical play. He probably didn't mean it as such, but it can come across as if there's an equivalence there.
Is this not a great example of the media putting something forward, and the whole world taking it as gospel without engaging their own brains.
For the actual final kickout there was no Dublin cynical play, no Dublin players lying on top of a Mayo player. In an alternate universe had Mayo used their extra man to successfully execute that kickout and then worked the ball up to a scoreable position and got the equalizer, the narrative could have been all about how the rules are working. How the ref correctly punished the Dubs with a black card and how Mayo used the extra man to engineer an equaliser.
But because the keeper kicked it over the sideline, suddenly the whole reason Dublin held on was because of cynicism and that the rules don't punish it. It's nonsense!!
+1000
Black and yellow cards had been handed out, extra time added on to cover the incident, and Clarke was facing a kick out with 13 Mayo men versus 12 Dubs - and he puts it out over the line.
C'mon lads, Mayo were better off after the "cynicism" off the Dubs - there was at least a minute after the kick out was taken, plenty of time for a score if they hadn't lost possession - and the Dubs were on the attack when the whistle blew.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 03, 2017, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: galwayman on October 03, 2017, 09:48:24 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 02, 2017, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.
So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.
Are you actually serious? I cannot understand that mentality at all. Kimmage wanted Mayo to win alright but he isn't a Dublin fan. He's a casual observer. He isn't a gaa head. Anybody who follows their team with a passion will never want them to lose.
We might have gone through several periods over the years where we were shit but I can honestly say i never once ever wanted the Galway footballers to lose any game.
Damn right I'm serious and you wouldn't understand unless you were from Dublin. Galway footballers never threatened to turn the entirety of inter-county football into a procession.
It was far more enjoyable following the Dublin footballers when they weren't the faceless, remorseless machine they are now. There was some element of doubt as to who would win 95% of matches they were involved in, for a start, so there was an element of what's called sporting competition. Now there isn't. That gets very boring after a while if you have the capability to see beyond the county you come from and consider the well being of the game as a whole.
Hi, I'm from Dublin and I've been following them since 83. And I have no idea what you're talking about.
Thanks.
The thing about blind loyalty is that you either have it or you don't. It cannot be taught. My mother drunk or sober. Dubs drunk or sober. It is a brain setting.
I wouldn't say blind loyalty, I have been hyper critical of the dubs in company over the years - but as a Dubs fan, I won't listen to anyone else slagging them off ;D
We are also supposed to be loyal to Oireland drunk or sober. Loyal to the bank guarantee and all the other shite.
Kimmage for all his morals and ethics is very quiet over his "good friend" Tom Humphries....
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 03, 2017, 06:40:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 03, 2017, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: galwayman on October 03, 2017, 09:48:24 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 02, 2017, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.
So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.
Are you actually serious? I cannot understand that mentality at all. Kimmage wanted Mayo to win alright but he isn't a Dublin fan. He's a casual observer. He isn't a gaa head. Anybody who follows their team with a passion will never want them to lose.
We might have gone through several periods over the years where we were shit but I can honestly say i never once ever wanted the Galway footballers to lose any game.
Damn right I'm serious and you wouldn't understand unless you were from Dublin. Galway footballers never threatened to turn the entirety of inter-county football into a procession.
It was far more enjoyable following the Dublin footballers when they weren't the faceless, remorseless machine they are now. There was some element of doubt as to who would win 95% of matches they were involved in, for a start, so there was an element of what's called sporting competition. Now there isn't. That gets very boring after a while if you have the capability to see beyond the county you come from and consider the well being of the game as a whole.
Hi, I'm from Dublin and I've been following them since 83. And I have no idea what you're talking about.
Thanks.
I imagine plenty of Dublin supporters have an idea of what I'm talking about, given that the attendances at their Leinster matches and All-Ireland quarter-finals have plummetted in this decade compared to the last.
And that these matches, and you can throw in this year's semi-final too, have atmospheres like morgues.
So clearly a lot Dublin people find the majority of Dublin matches to be rather boring these days.
With all due respect, that's different than hoping they lose! It's fine to say in the abstract 'I'd prefer a tougher competition where you don't know you are going win every game'. But at an individual game level, that's a long way from shouting for the opposition!
As AZ notes, wishing for a tougher challenge in no way is equivalent with wishing your team to lose. And if we define Dublin supporters as people who actually do go to matches, I think you'd be walking a long time before you found one who would agree with your original premise.
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 04, 2017, 01:31:13 PM
As AZ notes, wishing for a tougher challenge in no way is equivalent with wishing your team to lose. And if we define Dublin supporters as people who actually do go to matches, I think you'd be walking a long time before you found one who would agree with your original premise.
I'd say 1 in 10 fans would take a broader view after 5 Sams.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 04, 2017, 10:53:51 AM
Kimmage for all his morals and ethics is very quiet over his "good friend" Tom Humphries....
Was he the journalist who wrote a letter to the judge saying what a great fella Tom is? A GAA person did the same.
Quote from: Hound on October 04, 2017, 02:52:46 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 04, 2017, 10:53:51 AM
Kimmage for all his morals and ethics is very quiet over his "good friend" Tom Humphries....
Was he the journalist who wrote a letter to the judge saying what a great fella Tom is? A GAA person did the same.
Pretty sure it was Kimmage's ex best friend who Lance Armstrong also doesn't like!
Still no idea who the "sportsman" is who gave a character reference.
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 04, 2017, 01:31:13 PM
As AZ notes, wishing for a tougher challenge in no way is equivalent with wishing your team to lose. And if we define Dublin supporters as people who actually do go to matches, I think you'd be walking a long time before you found one who would agree with your original premise.
What if we define Dublin supporters as including people who used to go to matches regularly but now rarely do? There are quite a lot of them.
Back in the 2000s, Dublin regularly attracted crowds of 70k plus to Leinster championship matches and Leinster finals were always sell-outs. That hasn't happened for a long time now.
Dublin used to pack out Croke Park for stand alone quarter-finals.
That hasn't happened since 2009.
So it seems there are actually quite a lot of people who have lost interest.
Generally when a team is successful and winning All-Irelands, their support base goes up. But Dublin's has gone down. I find that very interesting and can only presume that quite a lot of Dublin people are bored of the seemingly relentless nature of their dominance.
Wishing for a tougher challenge could mean wanting the opposition to do well, just not quite well enough. Or it could mean actually mean wanting the opposition to win. But, whatever, it definitely means wanting the opposition to do better than they're doing, so in many respects, that does actually amount to cheering against your own team.
Would you like Dublin to win 10 in a row? How about 15 in a row? Or 20 in a row?
2011 was the first of Dublins 7 in a row Leinster titles the attendance that day was 43,983. Looks like some "supporters" were bored before that dominance even began. Now lets stick to the point that no true supporter would want his team to lose end of.
The supporters are probably too use to being in Croke Park. Dublin played the League games in Parnell Park in early 2000s. A different buzz for supporters going to watch Dublin in championship back then, when Leinster was more open. Westmeath,Meath,Laois all being competitive
Quote from: sid waddell on October 04, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 04, 2017, 01:31:13 PM
As AZ notes, wishing for a tougher challenge in no way is equivalent with wishing your team to lose. And if we define Dublin supporters as people who actually do go to matches, I think you'd be walking a long time before you found one who would agree with your original premise.
What if we define Dublin supporters as including people who used to go to matches regularly but now rarely do? There are quite a lot of them.
Back in the 2000s, Dublin regularly attracted crowds of 70k plus to Leinster championship matches and Leinster finals were always sell-outs. That hasn't happened for a long time now.
Dublin used to pack out Croke Park for stand alone quarter-finals.
That hasn't happened since 2009.
So it seems there are actually quite a lot of people who have lost interest.
Generally when a team is successful and winning All-Irelands, their support base goes up. But Dublin's has gone down. I find that very interesting and can only presume that quite a lot of Dublin people are bored of the seemingly relentless nature of their dominance.
Wishing for a tougher challenge could mean wanting the opposition to do well, just not quite well enough. Or it could mean actually mean wanting the opposition to win. But, whatever, it definitely means wanting the opposition to do better than they're doing, so in many respects, that does actually amount to cheering against your own team.
Would you like Dublin to win 10 in a row? How about 15 in a row? Or 20 in a row?
Maybe money is a factor?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 04, 2017, 06:53:05 PM
2011 was the first of Dublins 7 in a row Leinster titles the attendance that day was 43,983. Looks like some "supporters" were bored before that dominance even began. Now lets stick to the point that no true supporter would want his team to lose end of.
What's a "true supporter"?
Somebody who is utterly one-eyed about anything to do with "their team"? Or somebody who can see the bigger picture of their continuing relentless dominance in the vast majority of their matches, the vast majority of which are played in their home stadium, against a background of vastly superior financial and playing resources, being both boring and bad for the game in general?
Quote from: tonto1888 on October 04, 2017, 07:22:12 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 04, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 04, 2017, 01:31:13 PM
As AZ notes, wishing for a tougher challenge in no way is equivalent with wishing your team to lose. And if we define Dublin supporters as people who actually do go to matches, I think you'd be walking a long time before you found one who would agree with your original premise.
What if we define Dublin supporters as including people who used to go to matches regularly but now rarely do? There are quite a lot of them.
Back in the 2000s, Dublin regularly attracted crowds of 70k plus to Leinster championship matches and Leinster finals were always sell-outs. That hasn't happened for a long time now.
Dublin used to pack out Croke Park for stand alone quarter-finals.
That hasn't happened since 2009.
So it seems there are actually quite a lot of people who have lost interest.
Generally when a team is successful and winning All-Irelands, their support base goes up. But Dublin's has gone down. I find that very interesting and can only presume that quite a lot of Dublin people are bored of the seemingly relentless nature of their dominance.
Wishing for a tougher challenge could mean wanting the opposition to do well, just not quite well enough. Or it could mean actually mean wanting the opposition to win. But, whatever, it definitely means wanting the opposition to do better than they're doing, so in many respects, that does actually amount to cheering against your own team.
Would you like Dublin to win 10 in a row? How about 15 in a row? Or 20 in a row?
Maybe money is a factor?
Hardly.
Mayo's regular support base increased hugely during a time of recession.
Donegal's support base swelled at the same time.
And both those counties were affected far more by the crash than Dublin.
Also, Dublin supporters don't have to travel very much for matches.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 04, 2017, 07:24:51 PM
What's a "true supporter"?
Someone that doesn't want to see his team lose their most important match of the year.
https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/paul-kimmage/paul-kimmage-they-will-never-forget-his-name-the-paedophile-tom-humphries-36270205.html
Quote from: Ball Hopper on October 30, 2017, 06:51:33 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/paul-kimmage/paul-kimmage-they-will-never-forget-his-name-the-paedophile-tom-humphries-36270205.html
Great two sides to the story article. Can anyone point me to the two sides tongue story article on Lance Armstrong?
https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/paul-kimmage/paul-kimmage-success-and-acceptance-at-the-centre-of-jason-sherlock-story-36249221.html (https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/paul-kimmage/paul-kimmage-success-and-acceptance-at-the-centre-of-jason-sherlock-story-36249221.html)
Another class piece by Kimmage.
Great column. What a mess. Jaysus
Quote from: sid waddell on October 04, 2017, 11:54:21 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on October 03, 2017, 06:40:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 03, 2017, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: galwayman on October 03, 2017, 09:48:24 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 02, 2017, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2017, 05:03:23 PM
He is in his arse.
With all due respects AZ I would take his word over yours
What sort of a Dublin fan would hope Mayo would win?
I'm from Dublin and followed Dublin from 1987 to not that long ago, and still attend their matches, as it's what I've always done and I have a lot of social capital invested in attending them in terms of meeting friends and relatives, but I wanted Mayo to win the final, as I did in last year's finals and the 2015 semi-finals.
So it's perfectly possible to want your county to lose.
Are you actually serious? I cannot understand that mentality at all. Kimmage wanted Mayo to win alright but he isn't a Dublin fan. He's a casual observer. He isn't a gaa head. Anybody who follows their team with a passion will never want them to lose.
We might have gone through several periods over the years where we were shit but I can honestly say i never once ever wanted the Galway footballers to lose any game.
Damn right I'm serious and you wouldn't understand unless you were from Dublin. Galway footballers never threatened to turn the entirety of inter-county football into a procession.
It was far more enjoyable following the Dublin footballers when they weren't the faceless, remorseless machine they are now. There was some element of doubt as to who would win 95% of matches they were involved in, for a start, so there was an element of what's called sporting competition. Now there isn't. That gets very boring after a while if you have the capability to see beyond the county you come from and consider the well being of the game as a whole.
Hi, I'm from Dublin and I've been following them since 83. And I have no idea what you're talking about.
Thanks.
I imagine plenty of Dublin supporters have an idea of what I'm talking about, given that the attendances at their Leinster matches and All-Ireland quarter-finals have plummetted in this decade compared to the last.
And that these matches, and you can throw in this year's semi-final too, have atmospheres like morgues.
So clearly a lot Dublin people find the majority of Dublin matches to be rather boring these days.
54,000 for an All-Ireland semi-final. It seems a lot of Dubs are beginnng to find all this pretty boring.