DUBLIN V ARMAGH sat 17th @ 5.00pm croke park

[ONeill]

That's the first money I've taken off the bookies in about 2 years (apart from a refund).

Dublin are no world beaters but Armagh are hopeless. No real quality players of note apart from from McDonnell and the absent Clarke. Jamie Clarke is overhyped as Vernon was a year ago and was completely outmuscled yesterday. Reminded me of McComiskey's first year. Armagh are one-dimensional and until they rid themselves completely of the Kernan/Grimley type of player and tactics they're going nowhere fast. Dublin actually seemed more physical than Armagh but much more mobile and less obsessed with negating the opposition as an initial tactic as Armagh are.

However, Paddy O'Rourke now has the chance to unfurl a new era for Armagh football. They're in Division One next year and outside or 1-2 teams, there are no big shakes in that division. If he can usher in a few big changes in terms of personnel and approach then you never know. For me, McKeever as captain typifies all that's wrong with Armagh's approach even though some reckon he's had a good year.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

That's the first money I've taken off the bookies in about 2 years (apart from a refund).

Dublin are no world beaters but Armagh are hopeless. No real quality players of note apart from from McDonnell and the absent Clarke. Jamie Clarke is overhyped as Vernon was a year ago and was completely outmuscled yesterday. Reminded me of McComiskey's first year. Armagh are one-dimensional and until they rid themselves completely of the Kernan/Grimley type of player and tactics they're going nowhere fast. Dublin actually seemed more physical than Armagh but much more mobile and less obsessed with negating the opposition as an initial tactic as Armagh are.

However, Paddy O'Rourke now has the chance to unfurl a new era for Armagh football. They're in Division One next year and outside or 1-2 teams, there are no big shakes in that division. If he can usher in a few big changes in terms of personnel and approach then you never know. For me, McKeever as captain typifies all that's wrong with Armagh's approach even though some reckon he's had a good year.

1. Ciaran isn't the captain
2. He plays where he's instructed to play by the management and he has played well there. Its a reasonable arguement to suggest that dropping a man back in front of the full back line is a negative and unconstructive tactic but once a player is instructed to play that role by his manager there's very little he can do.

Also Jamie Clarke has played well in every championship match he's ever competed in for Armagh. He has looked a constant scoring threat, even when effectively double marked. The faults in the side lie not with him but with the failure to provide himself and McDonnell with quality possession.

[Sandy Hill]

There'll probably be a bit of hyperbole about wholesale changes in personnel heading into next year, but that's not the problem. It's that horrible style of football that's holding us back. We won't win anything playing like that, regardless of who's in the jerseys. There's too much intricate hand passing and too much carrying into contact. We're like a rugby team, trying to offload the ball in the tackle. Every attack is slow and predictable. The reason the half forwards are so ineffective is because they're continuously drawn backwards to receive shit little five yard hand passes from the defenders coming out.

Couldn't believe how many times Armagh both carried the ball into, and lost the ball in, the tackle.  Not a great advertisement for McGurn's capabilities as a strength and conditioning coach.
Armagh look like a team who don't play much football in training.  There is no fluency to their play at all, their play is so laboured and slow.

Ah yes its the dublins fans fault that Armagh have few players who can kick the ball accurately with one foot. Actually how many armagh players can even handpass properly? Unreal the amount of turnovers dublin got on basic handpassing errors. Armagh were physically bossed today. You'd wonder what Mc Gurn is doing with them.

exactly AFS. hooray for the minors. but it should be pointed out that some of the lads playing today are off probably the best u21 team of the decade, who apart from one game in their campaign won easily and convincingly. what have we done to them? theyre slow, ponderous, ethergys of the players they once were. since u21 level one poor manager after another, two rugby coaches, weights and more weights, all trying to emulate the 2002 team who were already battle hardened for 4 years when they won. armagh football is in a really crappy place right now, forget about losen the match we've managed to get rid of 20000 football fanatics who fought over tickets...

When Armagh had the ball there weren't the runs to provide an outlet for the pass, so the man tended to carry the ball. Like my avatar you need players there to take the pass and so often there is nobody there. I am a bit disappointed with McGurns contribution, we are as ponderous as we were last year. There is none of the zip that characterises the likes of Tyrone who are capable of breaking at speed, even the likes of Aaron seems to have slowed down.

McGurn has cost a fortune and the Armagh players have regressed in terms of fitness.  Few were fast enough to track back.  A Kernan and M Mackin were so slow it was embarassing. Few could hold the ball in the tackle, spilling the ball all over the field. 

Tactically Armagh are lost. handpassing is fine if it works and allows fast and accurate interchange with the time moving forward. Armagh handpasses are being intercepted almost half of the time because they miss the target, they are loopy and too slow.

o'rourke must go. mc alinden  is the man! and get rid of these rugby gym bunnies, our lads are like oil tankers its taking the whole pitch to get them turned

Some great comments over the past few pages - just wanted to summarize them ...

- Poor emphasis and ability to kick pass across the team
- Excessive carrying the ball into the tackle
- Too much handpassing and not moving the ball fast enough
- No physical strength
- No speed, explosiveness or fluency to the teams play
- Still following the 2002 model - which is now out of date
- Hearty despite the criticism earlier before the championship started has been one of the best this year and solid
- Andy Mallon is struggling to regain form and lacking physicality
- McKeever has had a very good year - but as a free man.
- Good competition for places between Duffy, Moriarty, Dyas, McKenna and Comiskey, McKenna.
- Aaron Kernan is very slow and ponderous on the ball and is not playing in the best position.
- Vernon has had a poor season, struggles in the air at Midfield and carries the ball into contact too much. - Mackin has struggled this year.
- Mallon tries hard and gave a decent account of himself this year.
- McDonnell tried very hard this year but is under severe pressure struggling to carry the full forward line
- Full Forward line is struggling without a Clarke or other quality support player to spread the threat. 
- Minor players need to begin to be introduced
- Overall, a small improvement from last year and possibly going in the right direction.

Is that a fair synopsis?

A fair synopsis, yes.
Hand passing - agree - interestingly, during the warm-up there was more time spent on hand passing than on kicking.
Vernon - without a doubt our most over-hyped player. I lost count of how many times he lost possession yesterday, including when Armagh were 6  -  2 up and his wayward pass resulted in a point after which Dublin forged on.
I'm not sure if we are moving in the right direction; at times yesterday it looked a bit like the Wexford game of two years ago including being caught by the short kick-outs.

[magickingdom]

both dublin and armagh were poor yesterday but dublin now get the chance to improve and no doubt they will. these games are all about surviving as kerry showed last year.  if armagh had scored those two 45s yesterday it could have been a different story.   

[mackers]

It's hard to know where to start..............the midfield & HF problem was an issue again with our passengers there for all to see. Vernon had a shocker along with AK. Toner was obviously unfit. I've never seen an Armagh team turned over in the tackle so much. In fairness Dublin tackled with great power and in the main with good discipline. We didn't handle Bernard Brogan as well as I thought we would but he's a real talent. Brendan Donaghy didn't go as well as he has been with Andy Mallon struggling again. Without Ciaran McKeever we would have been beaten more comprehensively but this sweeper system has to stop. He should've been up on Alan Brogan and gave him something to think about going backwards.
I think that the younger players have to be given a go last year as lads like Mal Mackin, Joe Feeney, Tony Kernan have been given their chances and unfortunately will never come up to the mark.
The management must learn from their mistakes both in terms of selection and also tactics. McGurn has to throw the fecking tackle bags away (a constant presence in pre game routines) and inject greater pace into the team. The real bright light of last year's minor win was the forwards and yes they probably are too young yet but are the players mentioned above good enough to keep them out of the team for another 2/3 years.
Best of luck to the Dubs who I reckon will beat Louth/Roscommon/Limerick but wouldn't want the losers of the Ulster final. Wouldn't get overly annoyed about the booing for the frees but cheering wides really gets my goat.
I think that we have moved on a little from last year, poor and all as we were yesterday it was better than the Monaghan game last year. Nobody can use the Ulster title in 08 as a pointer to no further progress made under this management as beating Cavan, Down and Fermanagh was no achievement at all.

[Throw ball]

Thought Dublin were extremely defensive and if they ever have a day when Brogan is poor could really get destroyed. Too many Armagh players had bad days. Would disagree that they played there previous defensive game. Dublin brought a man back which left McKeever free. He played his position and on many occasions carried the fight to Dublin. Our problem was we had no midfield at all due to injuries, poor form and absentees. Half forwrd line was poor with only Nippy having any real fight.

[Hound]

Nolan did not have a great game. Average. And Cullen was one of the reasons we won. His tracking and covering at wing forward was absolutely brilliant. Its taken the management the guts of 2 years to make a decision to play him at WF. that was a question that and Dublin fan could haveanswered during the commercial break for Coronation Street.

The full back line only had to mark two men!! Course they looked great.

I thought Mc Auley was great. Love the way he physically imposes himself. Great bit of stuff.

I thought I remember you being on record as saying Cullen should be centre back?

But I totally agree he's a wing forward, and should be one of the first names on the teamsheet as he's way ahead of Flynn and Corkery. He worked really hard, forced a couple of turnovers, but only Fitzsimons for Dublin had less touches of the ball (for lads who played all/most of the game.) Maybe I'm being too harsh (probably am) or expecting too much but I believe there's more to come from Bryan. He's a good passer and a very good man to take a score, and he didnt get the opportunity to show that side of his game.

Not sure what your problem is with Nolan. Hoovered up lots of breaking ball, used it really well and also got some good tackles in. Missed a chance for a score alright but still IMO was probably our best half back on the day. Well done to him.

[INDIANA]

Nolan did not have a great game. Average. And Cullen was one of the reasons we won. His tracking and covering at wing forward was absolutely brilliant. Its taken the management the guts of 2 years to make a decision to play him at WF. that was a question that and Dublin fan could haveanswered during the commercial break for Coronation Street.

The full back line only had to mark two men!! Course they looked great.

I thought Mc Auley was great. Love the way he physically imposes himself. Great bit of stuff.

I thought I remember you being on record as saying Cullen should be centre back?

But I totally agree he's a wing forward, and should be one of the first names on the teamsheet as he's way ahead of Flynn and Corkery. He worked really hard, forced a couple of turnovers, but only Fitzsimons for Dublin had less touches of the ball (for lads who played all/most of the game.) Maybe I'm being too harsh (probably am) or expecting too much but I believe there's more to come from Bryan. He's a good passer and a very good man to take a score, and he didnt get the opportunity to show that side of his game.

Not sure what your problem is with Nolan. Hoovered up lots of breaking ball, used it really well and also got some good tackles in. Missed a chance for a score alright but still IMO was probably our best half back on the day. Well done to him.

Henry is a better wing back then Nolan. Simple as Hound IMO. Nothing against him at all. Simple selection in my view. I've never got the hype about Nolan.

[The Konica]

Nolan did not have a great game. Average. And Cullen was one of the reasons we won. His tracking and covering at wing forward was absolutely brilliant. Its taken the management the guts of 2 years to make a decision to play him at WF. that was a question that and Dublin fan could haveanswered during the commercial break for Coronation Street.

The full back line only had to mark two men!! Course they looked great.

I thought Mc Auley was great. Love the way he physically imposes himself. Great bit of stuff.

I thought I remember you being on record as saying Cullen should be centre back?

But I totally agree he's a wing forward, and should be one of the first names on the teamsheet as he's way ahead of Flynn and Corkery. He worked really hard, forced a couple of turnovers, but only Fitzsimons for Dublin had less touches of the ball (for lads who played all/most of the game.) Maybe I'm being too harsh (probably am) or expecting too much but I believe there's more to come from Bryan. He's a good passer and a very good man to take a score, and he didnt get the opportunity to show that side of his game.

Not sure what your problem is with Nolan. Hoovered up lots of breaking ball, used it really well and also got some good tackles in. Missed a chance for a score alright but still IMO was probably our best half back on the day. Well done to him.

I've often felt that's been part of his problem - trying to do too much at times for the team. Nice to see him finding his feet again.

[heffo]

Nolan did not have a great game. Average. And Cullen was one of the reasons we won. His tracking and covering at wing forward was absolutely brilliant. Its taken the management the guts of 2 years to make a decision to play him at WF. that was a question that and Dublin fan could haveanswered during the commercial break for Coronation Street.

The full back line only had to mark two men!! Course they looked great.

I thought Mc Auley was great. Love the way he physically imposes himself. Great bit of stuff.

I thought I remember you being on record as saying Cullen should be centre back?

But I totally agree he's a wing forward, and should be one of the first names on the teamsheet as he's way ahead of Flynn and Corkery. He worked really hard, forced a couple of turnovers, but only Fitzsimons for Dublin had less touches of the ball (for lads who played all/most of the game.) Maybe I'm being too harsh (probably am) or expecting too much but I believe there's more to come from Bryan. He's a good passer and a very good man to take a score, and he didnt get the opportunity to show that side of his game.

Not sure what your problem is with Nolan. Hoovered up lots of breaking ball, used it really well and also got some good tackles in. Missed a chance for a score alright but still IMO was probably our best half back on the day. Well done to him.

I've never got the hype about Nolan.

Superb minor as I'm sure you know Indy - injuries over the last couple of years seem to have taken their toll - I hope he can fulfill his undoubted potential but I have my doubts.

If we get anyone other than Monaghan, the balance of the team up front will have to change the next day as I'd expect to see B Brogan doubled up the next day and there aren't enough other score takers up front

[020304 Tir Eoghain]

Nolan did not have a great game. Average. And Cullen was one of the reasons we won. His tracking and covering at wing forward was absolutely brilliant. Its taken the management the guts of 2 years to make a decision to play him at WF. that was a question that and Dublin fan could haveanswered during the commercial break for Coronation Street.

The full back line only had to mark two men!! Course they looked great.

I thought Mc Auley was great. Love the way he physically imposes himself. Great bit of stuff.

I thought I remember you being on record as saying Cullen should be centre back?

But I totally agree he's a wing forward, and should be one of the first names on the teamsheet as he's way ahead of Flynn and Corkery. He worked really hard, forced a couple of turnovers, but only Fitzsimons for Dublin had less touches of the ball (for lads who played all/most of the game.) Maybe I'm being too harsh (probably am) or expecting too much but I believe there's more to come from Bryan. He's a good passer and a very good man to take a score, and he didnt get the opportunity to show that side of his game.

Not sure what your problem is with Nolan. Hoovered up lots of breaking ball, used it really well and also got some good tackles in. Missed a chance for a score alright but still IMO was probably our best half back on the day. Well done to him.

I've never got the hype about Nolan.

Superb minor as I'm sure you know Indy - injuries over the last couple of years seem to have taken their toll - I hope he can fulfill his undoubted potential but I have my doubts.

If we get anyone other than Monaghan, the balance of the team up front will have to change the next day as I'd expect to see B Brogan doubled up the next day and there aren't enough other score takers up front

Dont know if Monaghan can recover from that today tbh. Would expect Dublin to beat them easily.

[heffo]

Nolan did not have a great game. Average. And Cullen was one of the reasons we won. His tracking and covering at wing forward was absolutely brilliant. Its taken the management the guts of 2 years to make a decision to play him at WF. that was a question that and Dublin fan could haveanswered during the commercial break for Coronation Street.

The full back line only had to mark two men!! Course they looked great.

I thought Mc Auley was great. Love the way he physically imposes himself. Great bit of stuff.

I thought I remember you being on record as saying Cullen should be centre back?

But I totally agree he's a wing forward, and should be one of the first names on the teamsheet as he's way ahead of Flynn and Corkery. He worked really hard, forced a couple of turnovers, but only Fitzsimons for Dublin had less touches of the ball (for lads who played all/most of the game.) Maybe I'm being too harsh (probably am) or expecting too much but I believe there's more to come from Bryan. He's a good passer and a very good man to take a score, and he didnt get the opportunity to show that side of his game.

Not sure what your problem is with Nolan. Hoovered up lots of breaking ball, used it really well and also got some good tackles in. Missed a chance for a score alright but still IMO was probably our best half back on the day. Well done to him.

I've never got the hype about Nolan.

Superb minor as I'm sure you know Indy - injuries over the last couple of years seem to have taken their toll - I hope he can fulfill his undoubted potential but I have my doubts.

If we get anyone other than Monaghan, the balance of the team up front will have to change the next day as I'd expect to see B Brogan doubled up the next day and there aren't enough other score takers up front

Dont know if Monaghan can recover from that today tbh. Would expect Dublin to beat them easily.

I meant if Dublin draw Monaghan this evening, I'd expect them to line up in broadly the same way they did v Armagh

I'd like a different balance if they were to draw a more attacking team

[lynchbhoy]

Well as me auntie said afterwards "Isnt it unbelievable that Armagh were worse". I think that sums it up.
Still, I'm delighted with the win.
Cluxton's kickouts were generally fantastic - what a player, definite All Star this year 
The full back line are young and green, and will get hammered from time to time. But I'm very happy that Gilroy is sticking with them, and I thought they did well today - particularly Philly.
I know one or two might have been advocating throwing Kevin Nolan to the scrapheap after he disappointed v Tipp, but again Gilroy was rewarded for showing some faith in a young lad. Super performance from Kev.
Midfield was generally awful. McConnell and Fennell caught no contested high ball. McAuley was very good in parts, but didnt win enough primary possession for me. However, he caught two super high balls in the last few minutes, which were instrumental in our win. I don't particularly rate Big Darren, but he's better than McConnell and Fennell, so time to bring him back.

I love Cullen, but thought he was very mediocre today. He never got into the game, contributed nothing, and was lucky to last as long as he did.
Corkery and O'Gara were disappointing IMO.
Al had a very good first half and was instrumental in bringing us back from 6-2 down to level. Not so hot in the 2nd half and I wish he wouldnt take on shots from ridiculous angles.
Bernard was sensational. Our best fielder today among other things.. I'd nearly play him midfield, only we'd have nobody to kick scores!
McManamon and Andrews were very medicore today, and did nothing to justify the calls from supporters for their inclusion. Conal Keaney is far better than either IMO. EDIT - Both were actually much better than I thought in replay, so I got that completely wrong! Tho I'd still prefer CK.

Flynn did reasonably well, and kicked a great point. The kick up the butt from Gilroy might have done the trick. If he could get rid of the hint of laziness, he could be a proper footballer, because he has all the ability.

Roll on Round 4!! 

fecking hell hound - Andrews was on all of 6 minutes !

I also dont rate nolan (yet at least).
Cullen def best at whf - I'd have flynn on the other wing.

[crossfire]

Well as me auntie said afterwards "Isnt it unbelievable that Armagh were worse". I think that sums it up.

Still, I'm delighted with the win.

Cluxton's kickouts were generally fantastic - what a player, definite All Star this year 

The full back line are young and green, and will get hammered from time to time. But I'm very happy that Gilroy is sticking with them, and I thought they did well today - particularly Philly.

I know Indiana was advocating throwing Kevin Nolan to the scrapheap after he disappointed v Tipp, but again Gilroy was rewarded for showing some faith in a young lad. Super performance from Kev.

Midfield was generally awful. McConnell and Fennell caught no contested high ball. McAuley was very good in parts, but didnt win enough primary possession for me. However, he caught two super high balls in the last few minutes, which were instrumental in our win. I don't particularly rate Big Darren, but he's better than McConnell and Fennell, so time to bring him back.

I love Cullen, but thought he was very mediocre today. He never got into the game, contributed nothing, and was lucky to last as long as he did.

Corkery and O'Gara were shambolic. Neither should have lasted more than 15 minutes. Two mullockers with feck all ability. They might remind Pat of himself, but I dont want to see either again.

Al had a very good first half and was instrumental in bringing us back from 6-2 down to level. Not so hot in the 2nd half and I wish he wouldnt take on shots from ridiculous angles.

Bernard was sensational. Our best fielder today among other things.. I'd nearly play him midfield, only we'd have nobody to kick scores!

McManamon and Andrews were very medicore today, and did nothing to justify the calls from supporters for their inclusion. Conal Keaney is far better than either IMO.

Flynn did reasonably well, and kicked a great point. The kick up the butt from Gilroy might have done the trick. If he could get rid of the hint of laziness, he could be a proper footballer, because he has all the ability.

Roll on Round 4!! 

Jaysus I thought Cullen was as good as I've seen him these last couple of years..Stuck in everything resulting in a lot of fumbles,
Bernard Brogan is def as good as there is in the country, Armagh threw their finest at him and could do nothing at all with him
even McKeever sweeping couldn't get her done.
O'Gara was a bit of a joke alright...whoever said earlier about him running around like he thinks he's better than he is hit the nail on the head!
Armagh are carrying a fair few passengers in fairness and Paddy O might just be one of them... What was behind bringing on Hanratty
at the end   could someone enlighten me as to what it is I'm missing about that lad

How often have you seen him.?

[the goal was on]

there is not a chance mc gurn will be going anywhere. hes talks the talk about training mathodolgy but end of day knows nothing about gaelic so how is that man qualified to be training the team. get a football coach in. for all the talk about his unique power and speed training 3 things

1)lastrugby world cup - irelands fitness pathetic
2)bernard dunne - powder puff
3)armagh - overtrained - peaked in league fitness wise/no sharpness

And it a fact they were running up hills in nov. wat was that about. pure craziness for someone apparently in the know