Down Club Hurling & Football

[Mourne Rover]

While TerrificTommy could also have included players in the last starting team from Glasdrumman, Saul and Downpatrick as coming from areas reasonably close to Ballykinlar, Wobbler is correct to stress that demographics need to be taken into consideration. There is still is no escaping the reality that the three fastest growing clubs in Down are arguably Bredagh, Carryduff and St Paul's of Holywood. The overall balance of footballing locations and the requirements of the hurlers and the two women's codes take us pretty inescapably to Ballykinlar. Every venue has its positives and negatives, and anyone who has been to Garvaghy knows that it is built on an exposed hill top where the wind and the rain would cut you in two for most of the year. However, Tyrone teams at all levels have gained huge benefits since it opened and Ballykinlar can do the same for us.

[6th sam]

While TerrificTommy could also have included players in the last starting team from Glasdrumman, Saul and Downpatrick as coming from areas reasonably close to Ballykinlar, Wobbler is correct to stress that demographics need to be taken into consideration. There is still is no escaping the reality that the three fastest growing clubs in Down are arguably Bredagh, Carryduff and St Paul's of Holywood. The overall balance of footballing locations and the requirements of the hurlers and the two women's codes take us pretty inescapably to Ballykinlar. Every venue has its positives and negatives, and anyone who has been to Garvaghy knows that it is built on an exposed hill top where the wind and the rain would cut you in two for most of the year. However, Tyrone teams at all levels have gained huge benefits since it opened and Ballykinlar can do the same for us.

Weather/altitude Of Ballykinlar also gives it an edge. Importantly as a floodlit facility , it means that all clubs in Down will now have access to floodlights , which will
Improve participation and fixture planning .
With so many positives, There would need to be a realistic alternative to ballykinlar found pretty soon ( and I don't see it) , otherwise we should plough on and support a potentially transformative addition to our playing facilities

[Cuan12]

I know of east down clubs who, in the pursuit of training facilities have travelled to the Abbey just to train, the money aspect may on the face of it seem sound, but any organisation sponsoring Down isn't concerned where the team trains, its concerned about exposure, the team will still play in Newry , that won't change, Ballykinlar will offer clubs facilities under lights, ability to hold juvenile tournaments for our development squads.
We have at last something to strive towards , it ticks a lot of boxes, no one likes change for change sake but when we have the prospect of having a facility which will benefit our football and hurling squads for years to come we have to embrace the opportunity not make petty arguments in opposition which will ultimately prove fruitless.

[thewobbler]

I know of east down clubs who, in the pursuit of training facilities have travelled to the Abbey just to train, the money aspect may on the face of it seem sound, but any organisation sponsoring Down isn't concerned where the team trains, its concerned about exposure, the team will still play in Newry , that won't change, Ballykinlar will offer clubs facilities under lights, ability to hold juvenile tournaments for our development squads.
We have at last something to strive towards , it ticks a lot of boxes, no one likes change for change sake but when we have the prospect of having a facility which will benefit our football and hurling squads for years to come we have to embrace the opportunity not make petty arguments in opposition which will ultimately prove fruitless.

All you see is positives. And I'm happy for you.

What I can see is an impasse a few years after it opens when management teams at every level begin requesting St Colman's, The Abbey and The Dub on a regular basis, in attempts to manage player discord. So long as the county board of that time don't try to force every team to Ballykinlar, it will only be an issue for a short while before being accepted as one of those things.

If they approach it with the edict that everything goes to Kinlar, then the project will become a byword for disharmony.

Kick that can down the road if you want Cuan. Pretend to yourself that everyone will be delighted to travel to the arse end of beyond for what is, for all intents and purposes, the same strip of grass and floodlights they've driven past 20 times en route. This a very real issue and it will rear its head by the end of year 1.

This is not an anti Ballyknlar stance. There are a lot of positives about the project. But anyone who genuinely believes that the facilities will always overcome the location, is taking too many happy pills.

[Cuan12]

Ok Wobbler, what's the alternative, we messed up with Burrenbridge, there's nothing else out there, so it's ok for players from east down to go to newry but not for south down players to do the opposite, I believe the glass always to be half full, I believe with the development of Ballykinlar we will see an improvement in our u de rage teams which will ultimately feed through to our senior team, we can't develop our training centre as a temporary measure, we need and I believe we will have a first class facility, I know Wobbler you may have to travel more than 10-15 mins but spare a thought for those  of us who for the last no's of decades have travelled to Newry to train play and watch, oh and as a footnote, the senior teams hurling, football men's and ladies have used Ballykinlar on a regular basis up to now so what's going to be so different?

[thewobbler]

At this point Cuan it's not about alternatives. Kinlar is going to happen.

What we do though need is some forward planning and commonsense in terms of its practicality as a a sole venue for county team training.

—-

By the way your constant beating of  the "it was good enough for East Down, so suck it up you south Down pricks" line is genuinely grating (as well as insular, smallminded, selfish, and ultimately horse shit).

Only when you begin accepting that Ballykinlar is an inconvenient location for dozens of clubs, for anyone working/living in Belfast or Co Antrim, for anyone working in Dublin, and for every single visiting county in Ireland, and see how these factors balance against it being super convenient for a dozen clubs, then will you realise this is not a south down /east down issue.

[qubdub]

An excellent development opportunity for Down GAA which certainly outweighs it's less than ideal location. You're clutching at straws when you are using inconveniencing the opposition in your argument (that's a good thing!)

[6th sam]

At this point Cuan it's not about alternatives. Kinlar is going to happen.

What we do though need is some forward planning and commonsense in terms of its practicality as a a sole venue for county team training.

—-

By the way your constant beating of  the "it was good enough for East Down, so suck it up you south Down pricks" line is genuinely grating (as well as insular, smallminded, selfish, and ultimately horse shit).

Only when you begin accepting that Ballykinlar is an inconvenient location for dozens of clubs, for anyone working/living in Belfast or Co Antrim, for anyone working in Dublin, and for every single visiting county in Ireland, and see how these factors balance against it being super convenient for a dozen clubs, then will you realise this is not a south down /east down issue.

Rather than a knee jerk reaction to wobbler's comments , it would serve us better to try to minimise his very genuine concerns , which are obviously in the interests of Down GAA. Because he's direct, and doesn't pull any punches, it doesn't lessen his valid arguments.
Many counties have missed a trick in throwing all their eggs into a single centre of excellence, often resulting in an underused expensive white elephant, and we should instead aim to have Ballykinlar as a state of the art base, augmenting our existing (rented) facilities.
Those with a geographical knowledge will realise that Ballykinlar's sea level location , weather and soil type already give it an edge on mountain based owenbeg and garvaghey , for example , in terms of exposure to the elements , 365 day availability and low maintenance. Because it's an area poorly served by floodlit facilities and highest density of clubs , and close two 3 of our biggest GAA towns( Downpatrick, Newcastle, Castlewellan, there'll be obvious participation benefits.
It is also much more accessible to Bredagh /Carryduff than newry is.
Ballykinlar will serve very well as our hub, but I feel DownGAA must also aim to guarantee continued use of Newry and Belfast, if we are to optimise our player friendliness ( which is vital to success).
Much as Ballykinlar isn't a perfect location, for infrastructure, it's in the middle of our county and is cost effective. There are already loads of floodlit venues around Newry , providing more Newry facilities  at greater expense would be hard to justify. On a final note , accesibility of a centre of excellence for travelling counties would be a low priority factor in decision making in optimising our own resources . We should remember that the vast majority of county activity at excellence centres will be at weekends, when infrastructure has much less relevance.

[Cuan12]

Wobbler , we all want the same thing and that is successful teams representing Down, presently we are falling further behind our provincial rivals, no matter where our center of excellence goes it will be inconvenient for some, it's not an us v them as you have alluded to, it's a fundamental need if we are to progress and be successful.
Ballykinlar will give us sand based training pitches at a fraction of the cost of what it would cost elsewhere in the county, we aren't exactly dripping in cash so it's too good an opportunity to pass up, I believe in debate and most of the comment here is genuine concerns but unless some one has a credible and viable alternative Ballykinlar is the only show in town.
As a county we leak thousands of pounds in pitch fees for training in the Abbey,St Colman's and the Red High.
When Ballykinlar is developed the payment of these fees will drop which I believe are approx 90 pds per hour so a liability each year can be turned into an asset - so financially it's a sound prospect.
Plus wobbler you will be able to go for a paddle in the sea !!

[RadioGAAGAA]

Ok Wobbler, what's the alternative, we messed up with Burrenbridge, there's nothing else out there, so it's ok for players from east down to go to newry but not for south down players to do the opposite

Newry to me is not a viable option. It would be utterly daft to situate the centre at one end of the county. It'd mean someone travelling from Downpatrick would take ~50mins.


To me, the lack of alternative is no excuse for being forced into an expensive mistake. Better to keep the money for when somewhere more suitable does come up.

Based on 7.30pm arrival time:
Its 40 mins from Cherryvale to Annaclone.
Its 40 mins from Cherryvale to Castlewellan.
Its 45 mins from Cherryvale to Ballykinlar.

You can't seriously tell me that Ballykinlar is the best place for it when the road links are so so poor. Are the Down GAA going to fund improvement of the road from Clough to Ballykinlar?


It is unfortunate that the roads in down are so shite, but we have to live with what we have.

The Finn would probably be the best place if you were not considering players outside the county - its approx equal travel times from Newry and from Cherryvale.
If your considering players travelling from outside the county, then you wanna get closer to the A1.

I suppose my two sentences above raises a question - would it be better to be looking at separate facilities for seniors vs. the underage teams? The underage teams aren't going to be drawing many from outside the county.

Either way, Ballykinlar is very much a sub-optimal solution. For something that we would want to last decades, say yes because its the only land available at the moment strikes me as poor decision making.

[Cuan12]

Radio your described as being a hero member on this forum with hundreds of posts, I bet you have had a right good moan about all things Down, but all the moaning won't stop Ballykinlar from happening and guys like yourself need to get behind this project , there's no other alternative and to start talking about split facilities is ludicrous if you have been to a county convention over the last no's of years you will have heard we aren't endowed with cash.
Also the clubs on a majority vote basis have backed this ,that's called democracy.

[6th sam]

Ok Wobbler, what's the alternative, we messed up with Burrenbridge, there's nothing else out there, so it's ok for players from east down to go to newry but not for south down players to do the opposite

Newry to me is not a viable option. It would be utterly daft to situate the centre at one end of the county. It'd mean someone travelling from Downpatrick would take ~50mins.


To me, the lack of alternative is no excuse for being forced into an expensive mistake. Better to keep the money for when somewhere more suitable does come up.

Based on 7.30pm arrival time:
Its 40 mins from Cherryvale to Annaclone.
Its 40 mins from Cherryvale to Castlewellan.
Its 45 mins from Cherryvale to Ballykinlar.

You can't seriously tell me that Ballykinlar is the best place for it when the road links are so so poor. Are the Down GAA going to fund improvement of the road from Clough to Ballykinlar?


It is unfortunate that the roads in down are so shite, but we have to live with what we have.

The Finn would probably be the best place if you were not considering players outside the county - its approx equal travel times from Newry and from Cherryvale.
If your considering players travelling from outside the county, then you wanna get closer to the A1.

I suppose my two sentences above raises a question - would it be better to be looking at separate facilities for seniors vs. the underage teams? The underage teams aren't going to be drawing many from outside the county.

Either way, Ballykinlar is very much a sub-optimal solution. For something that we would want to last decades, say yes because its the only land available at the moment strikes me as poor decision making.

I understand the concerns but Ballykinlar is best as a hub for the following reasons:
It's available
Low cost for purchase cost and maintenance
No planning  issues
Local need for optimal usage
Fairly central
Geographical advantages
Quick turnaround

I could go on

Utilisation of the Abbey for
Midweek senior sessions will tick most boxes.
No other venue will get near to these advantages

[Mourne Rover]

This discussion has descended a little and has probably run its course. However, it should be pointed out that no one would seriously make a decision based on distances from Cherryvale alone, and the times quoted by RadioGaaGaa are wrong anyway as the route goes through Clough which is closer to  Ballykinlar than Castlewellan. Suggesting that Aughlisnafin would be a a much more suitable choice also makes no sense as it is barely five miles from Ballykinlar and very unfairly has already had planning issues over GAA facilities. Planning has always to be a key concern, as Antrim Gaels have discovered not just over Casement Park but specifically over their own centre of excellence at Dunsilly. Ballykinlar does not seem to be facing any sustainable objections from neighbours or over access and is a wide open location blessed with decent weather and sandy soil. It is reasonably central, allowing for the overdue removal of a couple of bends on the three mile stretch from Clough, the funding is in place and the delegates to the county board have endorsed it. Having watched rival counties surge ahead of us in terms of facilities and performances, we really going to argue over this for another couple of decades ?

[Cuan12]

Mourne Rover - well said, now who s going to win the prospective championships, because it could be a clean sweep for east down and we will have to travel to Newry to witness it( sorry Wobbler and Radio man couldn't resist)

[thewobbler]

Maybe I'm being misunderstood here.

There's immense value in the Ballykinlar site, both as a general base for Down football and a de facto home for East Down football. It'll be playable all but 365 days a year and is clearly a financial gift.

Where my concerns stem principally come from is that should we invest significant capital into turning it into a state-of-the-art facility, our administrative bodies might wish to begin its life with a "ballykinlar or nowhere" policy.

That, to me, is the major issue.

Take two examples.

1. Over the past few seasons our u20 squads have trained regularly in the Dub. Although this is money leaving our county I would regard it as an extremely positive arrangement. If 20+ of a panel is based in Belfast, then carting the squad beyond Belfast makes no sense. The players are happy, and once you take mileage and buses out of the equation, even with Ballykinlar, it's basically a zero cost per night.

2. Our under-16 or under-17 management looking for a midweek challenge match. They phone the usual suspects - Monaghan, Louth, Meath, Cavan, Armagh, Derry, Antrim, Tyrone. The opposition management say that's fine, but we will host unless it's a Newry venue (first five) Belfast (second three). Down manager asks why, then e.g. Monaghan manager says "sure if it's Iniskeen, half your team will be home by 9.30, but if it's in Ballykinlar, none of our team sees their mammies before 10.30".

In either situation, Ballykinlar doesn't help us. It has clear plusses folks. But its remoteness will provide barriers. Address them. Don't create them.