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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: pintsofguinness on May 20, 2008, 10:25:41 PM

Title: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 20, 2008, 10:25:41 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7411406.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7411406.stm)
Title: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: 5 Sams on May 20, 2008, 10:37:34 PM
They say that the Kennedys are cursed and anyone who believes in that theory might have a case given the asassinations of Jack and Bobby, Joe's death in the war, John Jnr in the plane, Michael in the skiing accident and one of them ended up marrying Paul Hill :P ;)

But I think Teddy has bucked the trend...he escaped scot free over the Mary Jo Kopechne incident....he has had a good innings....more than can be said about his relatives!!
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: stephenite on May 21, 2008, 12:20:30 AM
Had a good innings and a good career considering he should have been jailed for manslaughter at Chappaquiddick - instead of the whitewash that ensued.

You can be sure if it was anyone else that drove that car off the bridge and left a young woman to drown, not reporting it until the following the day there would have been manslaughter charges laid at the very least, along with a hefty jail sentence
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: muppet on May 21, 2008, 12:27:45 AM
Quote from: stephenite on May 21, 2008, 12:20:30 AM
Had a good innings and a good career considering he should have been jailed for manslaughter at Chappaquiddick - instead of the whitewash that ensued.

You can be sure if it was anyone else that drove that car off the bridge and left a young woman to drown, not reporting it until the following the day there would have been manslaughter charges laid at the very least, along with a hefty jail sentence

Despite that he was still very good to 'the old country'.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: stephenite on May 21, 2008, 12:33:09 AM
Yeah, I know that we hear all about that - it's just every time I see him, I think, member of the elite that got away from bearing full responsibility for his actions which resulted in the death of a young woman because of his family name and their position in American life.

Sort of ruins anything else he might have done later in life, for me.
Title: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: 5 Sams on May 21, 2008, 12:34:56 AM
Quote from: stephenite on May 21, 2008, 12:20:30 AM
You can be sure if it was anyone else that drove that car off the bridge and left a young woman to drown, not reporting it until the following the day there would have been manslaughter charges laid at the very least, along with a hefty jail sentence

Spot on Stephenite....the "American Royal family" have got away with quite a bit ....despite what they have done for "The old Country"
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: J70 on May 21, 2008, 02:03:07 AM
Quote from: stephenite on May 21, 2008, 12:20:30 AM
Had a good innings and a good career considering he should have been jailed for manslaughter at Chappaquiddick - instead of the whitewash that ensued.

You can be sure if it was anyone else that drove that car off the bridge and left a young woman to drown, not reporting it until the following the day there would have been manslaughter charges laid at the very least, along with a hefty jail sentence

I don't know if I could ever vote for man like Kennedy. Despite the good he has tried to do for people, you have to take responsibility for you actions and Chappaquidick is huge black mark over his entire life.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: feetofflames on May 21, 2008, 08:43:02 AM
so none of you ever heard that Teddys drink was spiked and he was run off the road, and just about got away with his own life.  His reputation and career ruined but forever a lame duck politician with no white house possibility - Chappa was a very murky event and one where if you look beyond the reported facts or even talk to those closer to the scene, Chappquiddick was the family bullet thatTeddy dodged OK he survived, but it left his ambitions and the Kennedy name in tatters - a complete set up.  After John F No kennedy would ever be let rise again. 
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Over the Bar on May 21, 2008, 09:01:42 AM
Well there's all sorts of conspiracy theories but we can only look at the facts as to what happened. 

1. A young girl died
2. Ted the Red was driving
3. He didn't report it until the next day

Everything else is speculation.  He'e done enough for me to make up my mind.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: stephenite on May 22, 2008, 12:16:42 AM
Quote from: feetofflames on May 21, 2008, 08:43:02 AM
so none of you ever heard that Teddys drink was spiked and he was run off the road, and just about got away with his own life.  His reputation and career ruined but forever a lame duck politician with no white house possibility - Chappa was a very murky event and one where if you look beyond the reported facts or even talk to those closer to the scene, Chappquiddick was the family bullet thatTeddy dodged OK he survived, but it left his ambitions and the Kennedy name in tatters - a complete set up.  After John F No kennedy would ever be let rise again. 

So why is he on interview saying it was indefensible that he left the scene of the crime? I don't know if the accident was a set up or not - but he still left a young girl to drown, he should have spent some time in jail regardless
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Bord na Mona man on May 22, 2008, 08:20:22 AM
Quote from: stephenite on May 21, 2008, 12:20:30 AMYou can be sure if it was anyone else that drove that car off the bridge and left a young woman to drown, not reporting it until the following the day there would have been manslaughter charges laid at the very least, along with a hefty jail sentence
It was someone else who was driving the car in Chappaquiddick.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Gnevin on May 22, 2008, 08:49:53 AM
Quote from: feetofflames on May 21, 2008, 08:43:02 AM
so none of you ever heard that Teddys drink was spiked and he was run off the road, and just about got away with his own life.  His reputation and career ruined but forever a lame duck politician with no white house possibility - Chappa was a very murky event and one where if you look beyond the reported facts or even talk to those closer to the scene, Chappquiddick was the family bullet thatTeddy dodged OK he survived, but it left his ambitions and the Kennedy name in tatters - a complete set up.  After John F No kennedy would ever be let rise again. 
Jesus fof not every incident in life is one huge conspiracy ::)
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: TacadoirArdMhacha on May 22, 2008, 09:34:45 AM
Quote2. Ted the Red was driving

So he's a communist now?

Or just a closet Man Utd supporter?
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: stephenite on May 22, 2008, 11:25:27 AM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 22, 2008, 08:20:22 AM
Quote from: stephenite on May 21, 2008, 12:20:30 AMYou can be sure if it was anyone else that drove that car off the bridge and left a young woman to drown, not reporting it until the following the day there would have been manslaughter charges laid at the very least, along with a hefty jail sentence
It was someone else who was driving the car in Chappaquiddick.

Was it, who was the someone else? I've always been under the impression that he drove the car, plastered.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Main Street on May 22, 2008, 11:51:30 AM
 ;D
40 years ago.  FFS

I remember in the democratic party  primaries Kennedy V Carter,

Carter said that he would not mention Chappaquiddick, that no matter what happened he would not refer to Chappaquiddick,
that it would be a grave injustice to cast aspersion on the good character of Ted by alluding to Chappaquiddick
That Chappaquiddick was in the past and had no bearing today  etc etc


Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Rav67 on May 22, 2008, 12:21:46 PM
Apparently if he had rung for help at one of the nearby houses the girl might have been saved as she was stuck in an air bubble underwater and could breathe for up to an hour or so.  Yet he went back to his hotel and slept after it (!), how could anyone with a conscience do that.  Heartless bastard and he must have been 40-odd at this stage, if someone did this in their teens you might say that they could have changed by now.  Can't believe he kept getting elected as a Senator after this.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: AZOffaly on May 22, 2008, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: Rav67 on May 22, 2008, 12:21:46 PM
Apparently if he had rung for help at one of the nearby houses the girl might have been saved as she was stuck in an air bubble underwater and could breathe for up to an hour or so. Yet he went back to his hotel and slept after it (!), how could anyone with a conscience do that.  Heartless bastard and he must have been 40-odd at this stage, if someone did this in their teens you might say that they could have changed by now.  Can't believe he kept getting elected as a Senator after this.

I only have sketchy knowledge of this incident, but that point above puzzles me. How could you tell that? (not you personally, but the investigators or authorities). Presumably the air pocket, if there was one, must have been compromised to drown the girl, so how do they know one existed in the first place? I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Rav67 on May 22, 2008, 12:31:25 PM
The diver who went down for the body said this.  I assume you're at work and wont be able to listen to this but here's an interview with the diver at the scene, its not long so have a listen to it when you get home.  You'll see the link on the page.

http://fatboy.cc/live_from_chappaquiddick.htm
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: AZOffaly on May 22, 2008, 12:32:33 PM
I can listen at work alright. I'll have a listen.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: J70 on May 22, 2008, 01:45:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 22, 2008, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: Rav67 on May 22, 2008, 12:21:46 PM
Apparently if he had rung for help at one of the nearby houses the girl might have been saved as she was stuck in an air bubble underwater and could breathe for up to an hour or so. Yet he went back to his hotel and slept after it (!), how could anyone with a conscience do that.  Heartless bastard and he must have been 40-odd at this stage, if someone did this in their teens you might say that they could have changed by now.  Can't believe he kept getting elected as a Senator after this.

I only have sketchy knowledge of this incident, but that point above puzzles me. How could you tell that? (not you personally, but the investigators or authorities). Presumably the air pocket, if there was one, must have been compromised to drown the girl, so how do they know one existed in the first place? I'm just curious.

An air pocket doesn't contain an infinite supply of oxygen. Once the oxygen level drops below 19.5%, you'll pass out. I presume anyone passing out like that would then drown in the water. I'm not saying that it happened exactly like that, obviously.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: AZOffaly on May 22, 2008, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 22, 2008, 01:45:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 22, 2008, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: Rav67 on May 22, 2008, 12:21:46 PM
Apparently if he had rung for help at one of the nearby houses the girl might have been saved as she was stuck in an air bubble underwater and could breathe for up to an hour or so. Yet he went back to his hotel and slept after it (!), how could anyone with a conscience do that.  Heartless bastard and he must have been 40-odd at this stage, if someone did this in their teens you might say that they could have changed by now.  Can't believe he kept getting elected as a Senator after this.

I only have sketchy knowledge of this incident, but that point above puzzles me. How could you tell that? (not you personally, but the investigators or authorities). Presumably the air pocket, if there was one, must have been compromised to drown the girl, so how do they know one existed in the first place? I'm just curious.

An air pocket doesn't contain an infinite supply of oxygen. Once the oxygen level drops below 19.5%, you'll pass out. I presume anyone passing out like that would then drown in the water. I'm not saying that it happened exactly like that, obviously.

Good point J70. I forgot about the CO2 output replacing oxygen. So can I take it that the air pocket was still intact when she was found?
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Rav67 on May 22, 2008, 02:21:35 PM
http://www.ytedk.com/chapter5.htm

This is a timeline of the body recovery, just scroll down to 8.45am.  There's a picture there showing original water level, as well as final water level- by that stage she was completely underwater and no air pocket remained when she was found.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 01:04:46 PM
Quote from: Rav67 on May 22, 2008, 02:21:35 PM
http://www.ytedk.com/chapter5.htm

This is a timeline of the body recovery, just scroll down to 8.45am.  There's a picture there showing original water level, as well as final water level- by that stage she was completely underwater and no air pocket remained when she was found.

I didnt read too much of that site - it's widely reported to have been established as Republican propoganda - but did it mention that the police who investigated the accident didn't believe that Kennedy was the driver.  Does it talk about the drivers window of the car was smashed in meaning he would most certainly (they believe) have had a head injury - he'd no visible injuries.  Does it go into how the police first became suspicious because he kept insisting it was him that was driving, told them over and over again without them prompting him and when he'd no real reason to.  - This from a man who witnesses claim was behaving perfectly normal and calm all morning. 


Also
QuoteAt the inquest Judge James Boyle raised doubts about Kennedy's testimony. He pointed out that as Kennedy had a good knowledge of Chappaquiddick Island he could not understand how he managed to drive down Dyke Road by mistake. For example, on the day of the accident, Kennedy had twice had driven on Dyke Road to go to the beach for a swim. To get to Dyke Road involved a 90-degree turn off a metalled road onto the rough, bumpy dirt-track.

An investigation at the scene of the accident by Raymond R. McHenry, suggested that Kennedy approached the bridge at an estimated 34 miles (55 kilometres) per hour. At around 5 metres (17 feet) from the bridge, Kennedy braked violently. This locked the front wheels. According to McHenry: "The car skidded 5 metres (17 feet) along the road, 8 metres (25 feet) up the humpback bridge, jumped a 14 centimetre barrier, somersaulted through the air for about 10 metres (35 feet) into the water and landed upside-down."

Investigators found it difficult to understand why he was crossing Dyke Bridge when he said he was attempting to reach Edgartown which was in the opposite direction. They also could not understand why he was driving so fast on this unlit, uneven, road. They also could not work out how Kennedy escaped from the car. When it was recovered from the water all the doors were locked. Three of the windows were either open or smashed in. If Kennedy, a large-framed 6 foot 2 inches tall man could manage to get out of the car, why was it impossible for Kopechne, a slender 5 foot 2 inches tall, not do the same?

Local experts could not understand why Kennedy (and later, Markham and Gargan) could not rescue Kopechne from the car. It also surprised investigators that Kennedy did not seek help from Pierre Malm, who only lived 135 metres from the bridge. At the inquest Kennedy was unable to answer this question.

There were also doubts about the way Mary Jo Kopechne died. Dr. Donald Mills of Edgartown, wrote on the death certificate: "death by drowning". However, Gene Frieh, the undertaker, told reporters that death "was due to suffocation rather than drowning". John Farrar, the diver who removed Kopechne from the car, claimed she was "too buoyant to be full of water". It is assumed that she died from drowning, although her parents filed a petition preventing an autopsy.

Other questions were asked about Kennedy's decision to swim back to Edgartown. The 150 metre channel had strong currents and only the strongest of swimmers would have been able to make the journey safely. Also no one saw Kennedy arrive back at the Shiretown Inn in wet clothes. Ross Richards, who had a conversation with Kennedy the following morning at the hotel described him as casual and at ease.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAkennedyE.htm (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAkennedyE.htm)

btw, the girl's family have never seemed to bear any ill will towards Kennedy which is also a little strange. 


Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 02:42:24 PM
Quote from: Mac Eoghain on May 26, 2008, 02:30:24 PM
Quotebtw, the girl's family have never seemed to bear any ill will towards Kennedy which is also a little strange.

Thats because the dogs on the street know that Kennedy wasnt driving. Everyone knows it was Holly, Aged 8, from Kent.

Dont think you can blame it on Holly.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: stew on May 26, 2008, 03:01:39 PM
Quote from: Rav67 on May 22, 2008, 12:21:46 PM
Apparently if he had rung for help at one of the nearby houses the girl might have been saved as she was stuck in an air bubble underwater and could breathe for up to an hour or so.  Yet he went back to his hotel and slept after it (!), how could anyone with a conscience do that.  Heartless bastard and he must have been 40-odd at this stage, if someone did this in their teens you might say that they could have changed by now.  Can't believe he kept getting elected as a Senator after this.

Massachussetts is a liberal state, they forgive everybody and anybody.

Kennedy is the consummate politician, he would  have sold out his mother for a few swing votes.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: magickingdom on May 26, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
anyway now that we've dealt with that awful accident i for one hope senator kennedy makes a full recovery. he has spent the last 40 odd years doing his best to help other people (as both sides of the US house would acknowledge) done great work on health care and gave a considerable hand in helping ireland too..
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: J70 on May 26, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 26, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
he has spent the last 40 odd years doing his best to help other people (as both sides of the US house would acknowledge)

Perhaps his fellow senators, who know him personally and have co-sponsored bills and worked on committees with him might have time for him, but the US right wing in general despises him, both for stuff like Chappaquidick and the general perception of above-the-law, reckless entitlement that many have of the Kennedys, and for the fact that he is a proud, unapologetic, formidable and very influential liberal.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 07:24:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 26, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 26, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
he has spent the last 40 odd years doing his best to help other people (as both sides of the US house would acknowledge)

Perhaps his fellow senators, who know him personally and have co-sponsored bills and worked on committees with him might have time for him, but the US right wing in general despises him, both for stuff like Chappaquidick and the general perception of above-the-law, reckless entitlement that many have of the Kennedys, and for the fact that he is a proud, unapologetic, formidable and very influential liberal.

Yeah, I would see that as a good thing (though Bush and McCain have paid tribute).  I hope he makes a recovery however it doesnt look very likely.  I've said on here before I am a massive fan of the three brothers.  Ted's private life may have been far from perfect (maybe a lot of it had to do with the relatives he buried) but he was an excellent senator and poltician and, like his brothers, he used his wealth and his power to fight for those that hadnt the means to do it themselves. 
Hopefully it'll be of some comfort to the family to be able to spend some time with him rather than to have him snapped from them like the others.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: J70 on May 26, 2008, 07:38:25 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 07:24:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 26, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 26, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
he has spent the last 40 odd years doing his best to help other people (as both sides of the US house would acknowledge)

Perhaps his fellow senators, who know him personally and have co-sponsored bills and worked on committees with him might have time for him, but the US right wing in general despises him, both for stuff like Chappaquidick and the general perception of above-the-law, reckless entitlement that many have of the Kennedys, and for the fact that he is a proud, unapologetic, formidable and very influential liberal.

Yeah, I would see that as a good thing (though Bush and McCain have paid tribute).  I hope he makes a recovery however it doesnt look very likely.  I've said on here before I am a massive fan of the three brothers.  Ted's private life may have been far from perfect (maybe a lot of it had to do with the relatives he buried) but he was an excellent senator and poltician and, like his brothers, he used his wealth and his power to fight for those that hadnt the means to do it themselves. 
Hopefully it'll be of some comfort to the family to be able to spend some time with him rather than to have him snapped from them like the others.

A lot of these guys in the Senate and House and the White House would get on on a personal level, despite political differences, while you often hear stories of political allies despising each other personally! Apparently Al Gore and the Clintons would not be close, to put it mildly, and the same goes for McCain and Bush (although I couldn't blame McCain for that given what was done in Bush's name in the South Carolina primary in 2000). Sure weren't John Hume and Paisley fairly friendly as MEPs, despite all Paisley's ranting and obstruction over the years?
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: stew on May 26, 2008, 09:01:58 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 07:24:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 26, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 26, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
he has spent the last 40 odd years doing his best to help other people (as both sides of the US house would acknowledge)

Perhaps his fellow senators, who know him personally and have co-sponsored bills and worked on committees with him might have time for him, but the US right wing in general despises him, both for stuff like Chappaquidick and the general perception of above-the-law, reckless entitlement that many have of the Kennedys, and for the fact that he is a proud, unapologetic, formidable and very influential liberal.

Yeah, I would see that as a good thing (though Bush and McCain have paid tribute).  I hope he makes a recovery however it doesnt look very likely.  I've said on here before I am a massive fan of the three brothers.  Ted's private life may have been far from perfect (maybe a lot of it had to do with the relatives he buried) but he was an excellent senator and poltician and, like his brothers, he used his wealth and his power to fight for those that hadnt the means to do it themselves. 
Hopefully it'll be of some comfort to the family to be able to spend some time with him rather than to have him snapped from them like the others.

Bobby was the best of them all, by a long way. The Kennedy's did want to help the underpriviliged and that will form part of their legacy but Teddy will be judged for the cowardice he displayed on the cape, and it should haunt him, he should have been charged for the crime of leaving the scene and allowing a young woman to drown.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: J70 on May 26, 2008, 09:15:41 PM
Quote from: stew on May 26, 2008, 09:01:58 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 07:24:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 26, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 26, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
he has spent the last 40 odd years doing his best to help other people (as both sides of the US house would acknowledge)

Perhaps his fellow senators, who know him personally and have co-sponsored bills and worked on committees with him might have time for him, but the US right wing in general despises him, both for stuff like Chappaquidick and the general perception of above-the-law, reckless entitlement that many have of the Kennedys, and for the fact that he is a proud, unapologetic, formidable and very influential liberal.

Yeah, I would see that as a good thing (though Bush and McCain have paid tribute).  I hope he makes a recovery however it doesnt look very likely.  I've said on here before I am a massive fan of the three brothers.  Ted's private life may have been far from perfect (maybe a lot of it had to do with the relatives he buried) but he was an excellent senator and poltician and, like his brothers, he used his wealth and his power to fight for those that hadnt the means to do it themselves. 
Hopefully it'll be of some comfort to the family to be able to spend some time with him rather than to have him snapped from them like the others.

Bobby was the best of them all, by a long way. The Kennedy's did want to help the underpriviliged and that will form part of their legacy but Teddy will be judged for the cowardice he displayed on the cape, and it should haunt him, he should have been charged for the crime of leaving the scene and allowing a young woman to drown.

He pled guilty to leaving the accident scene and got a two month suspended sentence.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 09:49:05 PM
Quote from: stew on May 26, 2008, 09:01:58 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 07:24:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 26, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 26, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
he has spent the last 40 odd years doing his best to help other people (as both sides of the US house would acknowledge)

Perhaps his fellow senators, who know him personally and have co-sponsored bills and worked on committees with him might have time for him, but the US right wing in general despises him, both for stuff like Chappaquidick and the general perception of above-the-law, reckless entitlement that many have of the Kennedys, and for the fact that he is a proud, unapologetic, formidable and very influential liberal.

Yeah, I would see that as a good thing (though Bush and McCain have paid tribute).  I hope he makes a recovery however it doesnt look very likely.  I've said on here before I am a massive fan of the three brothers.  Ted's private life may have been far from perfect (maybe a lot of it had to do with the relatives he buried) but he was an excellent senator and poltician and, like his brothers, he used his wealth and his power to fight for those that hadnt the means to do it themselves. 
Hopefully it'll be of some comfort to the family to be able to spend some time with him rather than to have him snapped from them like the others.

Bobby was the best of them all, by a long way. The Kennedy's did want to help the underpriviliged and that will form part of their legacy but Teddy will be judged for the cowardice he displayed on the cape, and it should haunt him, he should have been charged for the crime of leaving the scene and allowing a young woman to drown.

His cowardice?  Is he a bigger coward than George Bush? 
After Bobby's death he was urged by all who knew him to leave public office, in case he met the same faith and he wouldnt.  Considering his money he easily could have, he could easily have sat on his arse and done nothing and made a few pound here and there speaking about his brothers (to my knowledge he has never commented on the record about his brother's assassinations).

If he was driving the car - he made a mistake, a terrible and, in his own words, an indefensible one.  Then he went and held his hands up and accepted responsibility when, i would imagine, he could have easily denied he was driving or covered up.  He pleaded guilty to the charge he faced, some may say he should have been charged with manslaughter but was this Ted Kennedy's fault?  I dont think so.  More importantly he seemingly made his peace with the girl's family and has spent the last 40 years making up for his mistake. 
Ok it can be argued he caused a girl's death due to his negligence, how many lives has he improved?  I've read various stuff on him since the news about his tumour broke and it's been said several times that there is hardly an american who hasnt benefited from his work. 

I don't think the man is the devil he is made out to be.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Main Street on May 26, 2008, 09:49:36 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 01:04:46 PM
I didnt read too much of that site - it's widely reported to have been established as Republican propoganda -

That site appears to be selective and partisan in what it chooses to display, as one who hasn't read much about it I could not trust it's objectivity.
But is there anybody that has looked at the available evidence believe in Kennedy's statement? or even that it comes close enough?

I am not one for conspiracies. I'd have no problem with the obvious story of a very drunk driver leaving the scene of an accident, if it made sense,
followed by a rich powerful family pulling strings.

The evidence of Hotel witnesses does not support Kennedy being drunk.
Strange not calling the ferry boat to cross the channel.

A guilty person can claim innocence and get stuck with a poorly thought out statement but even that scenario is not supported by the events.




Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 10:01:52 PM
QuoteStrange not calling the ferry boat to cross the channel.

He couldnt, the ferrys didn't sale that late at night so he, being so drunk that he couldnt tell one road from another - even though he knew them well, he swam 500ft after almost drowning in a submerged car. 
And what's more strange! his two closest friends stood and watched him while he dived into the water and they didn't bother to try and contact him until 8am the next morning - not knowing if he'd survived the swim or not. 

Ted Kennedy's story makes as much sense as the conspiracy theories. 
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Main Street on May 26, 2008, 10:15:23 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 10:01:52 PM
QuoteStrange not calling the ferry boat to cross the channel.

He couldnt, the ferrys didn't sale that late at night so he, being so drunk that he couldnt tell one road from another - even though he knew them well, he swam 500ft after almost drowning in a submerged car.

I read this in Time magazine account from 1970 maybe it doesn't amount to much.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,878212-3,00.html

'Kennedy instructed Markham and Gargan not to alarm them, said that he would take care of reporting the accident, then plunged alone into the channel and swam across to Edgartown. This despite the fact that the ferry could have been summoned by telephone. Gargan acknowledged that earlier in the day he had discussed post-midnight ferry service with the boat operators. Also, a sign giving instructions about the service was at the landing.'


Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 10:22:28 PM
I've never read that until now main street.  Interesting.

Personally I'd let my close friend, under the influence of alcholol and after being in a car accident jump in to a channel for a 500ft swim in strong currents, return to my cottage and only think of checking on him the next morning.  Wouldnt everyone?

Meanwhile he, dripping wet, slips into his hotel room without being seen until quarter to 3 in the mornign when he complains to one of the hotel staff that the noise of some party woke him.

What the f**k?

As you said does anyone who has actually read anything about the incident think Kennedy drove the car?  How could you?


*Just read the whole of that link you put up mainstreet, it probably confuses things even more. 
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Rav67 on May 27, 2008, 01:32:26 PM
What would his motivation be for these lies?  Why would someone admit to being responsible for someone's death and leaving the scene if they didn't do it?
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: feetofflames on May 27, 2008, 01:38:45 PM
a methodical wipe out of the entire top to bottom kennedy clan.  Dont forget Bobby loved his women and drink so he was an easy target.  He is an easy target the fact that no kennedy speaks of the conspiratorial assassinations of the two brothers they are not going to speak about the political assassination of Teddy.  He was framed and whatever it was it will probably die with him.   
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 27, 2008, 01:40:40 PM
Threats? Blackmail?
Why have none of the kennedy's ever spoke about about the conspiracy theories?
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Rav67 on May 27, 2008, 01:57:45 PM
There's not much worse you could use to blackmail a man that what he admitted to doing.  And if you wanted to 'politically assassinate' someone would it not be easier to just assassinate them rather than kill their friend and try to pin on it them?
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Main Street on May 27, 2008, 02:18:56 PM
Just because Kennedy's statement is full of bunkers , does not make the other scenario real - Kennedy was a very drunk driver or a callously sober driver - the aftermath was a botched cover up of Kennedy's actions.

In fact, some of the conspiracies have more credibility.

How about EK's wife in a jealous rage killed MJK?

No chance of libel here, is there?

Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: magickingdom on May 27, 2008, 07:08:31 PM
Quote from: Main Street on May 27, 2008, 02:18:56 PM
Just because Kennedy's statement is full of bunkers , does not make the other scenario real - Kennedy was a very drunk driver or a callously sober driver - the aftermath was a botched cover up of Kennedy's actions.

In fact, some of the conspiracies have more credibility.

How about EK's wife in a jealous rage killed MJK?

No chance of libel here, is there?



get a fockin grip main st..
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 27, 2008, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: Rav67 on May 27, 2008, 01:57:45 PM
There's not much worse you could use to blackmail a man that what he admitted to doing.  And if you wanted to 'politically assassinate' someone would it not be easier to just assassinate them rather than kill their friend and try to pin on it them?

Well they done that twice, killing Kennedy would have only added to the whole Kennedy image - they couldnt kill every Kennedy that came along so the best tactic was probably to destroy their image. 

Main street
QuoteJust because Kennedy's statement is full of bunkers , does not make the other scenario real - Kennedy was a very drunk driver or a callously sober driver - the aftermath was a botched cover up of Kennedy's actions.
How so? 
The ones at the party said he'd only two drinks - if they were going to lie about that why wouldn't they lie that he was there the whole night and the girl stormed off or something?
Why would he have went back to his hotel - dripping wet after swimming 500ft - if he was going to cover up how would he explain those actions?  Surely he would have stayed where he was and could easily have been provided with an alibi? 
I would have thought that if he wanted to cover up he could easily have done it. 

As for his wife killing her - a  pregnant woman drives a car off a bridge and escapes?  Doesnt sound quite right either.
Especially considering she never seemed too bothered about the rest of his affairs.
Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: Main Street on May 27, 2008, 10:17:02 PM
I meant to say about one of the serious and obvious alternative versions expressed on this thread, that believe Kennedy was drunk and guilty of manslaughter and what followed was his family/connections doing their upmost to get him off the hook,
that that version is as unsupported as a (crazy) example of someone else doing it.

From reading a few bits here and there in the last few days I am a bit surprised that there is no story which comes close to satisfying the known facts.
Is there no reputable journalistic investigation into the incident?







































Title: Re: Edward Kennedy has brain tumour
Post by: MW on May 27, 2008, 11:20:20 PM
Quote from: stew on May 26, 2008, 09:01:58 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2008, 07:24:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 26, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 26, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
he has spent the last 40 odd years doing his best to help other people (as both sides of the US house would acknowledge)

Perhaps his fellow senators, who know him personally and have co-sponsored bills and worked on committees with him might have time for him, but the US right wing in general despises him, both for stuff like Chappaquidick and the general perception of above-the-law, reckless entitlement that many have of the Kennedys, and for the fact that he is a proud, unapologetic, formidable and very influential liberal.

Yeah, I would see that as a good thing (though Bush and McCain have paid tribute).  I hope he makes a recovery however it doesnt look very likely.  I've said on here before I am a massive fan of the three brothers.  Ted's private life may have been far from perfect (maybe a lot of it had to do with the relatives he buried) but he was an excellent senator and poltician and, like his brothers, he used his wealth and his power to fight for those that hadnt the means to do it themselves. 
Hopefully it'll be of some comfort to the family to be able to spend some time with him rather than to have him snapped from them like the others.

QuoteBobby was the best of them all, by a long way
. The Kennedy's did want to help the underpriviliged and that will form part of their legacy but Teddy will be judged for the cowardice he displayed on the cape, and it should haunt him, he should have been charged for the crime of leaving the scene and allowing a young woman to drown.

Funny I was going to type the same thing about RFK, didn't expect antone else to have voiced the same opinion...never mind finding myself agreeing with you, stew ;) :P

RFK was a radical among American mainstream politics, come the 1968 presidential campaign (cut tragically short, of course) especially.

Went to the John F Kennedy presidential museum and library last year while taking a programme in the JFK School, was pleased to pick up an original of one of RFK books and a Kennedy for President sticker from the 1968 campaign. I'm not given to 'JFK worship' was some might be but have an admiration for Bobby's work.