HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[charlieTully]

If as some insist you shove a united Ireland down the throat of the Unionists and like it or lump it then I've no doubt there will be a paramilitary response. I almost admire the naivety of the nationals who claim there won't be a republican response

From memory they signed up to the GFA. Agreed to the principle of consent. All this 23 years ago. Hardly shoving it down their throat is it.

[sid waddell]

Disagreements over the oath was the main reason for the Civil War, Lar

Not partition

The oath and partition were entirely separate things

Somewhere along the line you seem to have picked up the belief that the oath and partition were exactly the same thing

They weren't

[Rossfan]

There's no one (maybe a small few ) shoving anything anywhere.
Brexit, Protocol, economic realities and changing demographics means people are now talking about the subject.
Catholics/nationalists in the 6 can live with the GFA.
What arrangements can be made in a future All Ireland entity that Protestants/Unionists can live with?
That is a worthy subject of discussion and debate.

[bennydorano]

In regards to the historical arguments going, when did any major event ever revolve around one contributing event or 'fact', idiotic to think in such black & white terms, most major events have many contributing factors, Irish Civil War included.

[Milltown Row2]

There's no one (maybe a small few ) shoving anything anywhere.
Brexit, Protocol, economic realities and changing demographics means people are now talking about the subject.
Catholics/nationalists in the 6 can live with the GFA.
What arrangements can be made in a future All Ireland entity that Protestants/Unionists can live with?
That is a worthy subject of discussion and debate.

It would need to be a 'soft' republic in the north, run for a while in Stormont then gradually work towards breaking free completely

[Lar Naparka]

In regards to the historical arguments going, when did any major event ever revolve around one contributing event or 'fact', idiotic to think in such black & white terms, most major events have many contributing factors, Irish Civil War included.

+1
Of course there were multiple factors. To suggest that the Oath of Allegiance led to the Civil War is not supported by any other authority than our sid. I mean if JC Beckett didn't think it was worthy of mention, what link to anything of note has Sid got to prove the rest of the civilised world is wrong?
I mean can he refer to any other credible authority than himself?

[Rossfan]

My idea is a Confederation of 2 "home rule" areas run by slimmed down Dáil and Stormont.
The "Confederacy" to be in charge of major items, foreign affairs etc.
GFA provisions re dual Nationality, passports etc to continue in the 6 Co area.

[Lar Naparka]

Sid, what had the American Civil War got to do with Partition?
You draw some sort of analogy there but I'm sure damned if I can follow you.
Same as with the controversy over Aonghus MacGrianna's attempt at humour on New Year's Eve.
I merely said the hoor should have apologised and you came back with a bizarre potpourri of accusations, insinuations and over the top generalisations.
How you associate my simple statement with the rape and murder of Manuela Raedo was off the Richter  scale in terms of logic . What connection you could see between me and Eamon Martin, the I Own Her Institute and ''je suis Charlie" left me puzzled.
As far  as I was concerned, Eamon Martin, David O'Brien and anyone else who was bothered one way about the skit's contents could go around to the back of the RTE canteen and kick the shins off each other.
No particular offence intended but you appear to have developed hyperbole into a  form of art.

[sid waddell]

If a republican grouping goes back to killing because the loyalists are doing it then they'll have achieved what they want. Game over. No poll or no votes going towards it.

The thirst for killing is gone. You can blood and thunder all you want but committing crimes will be severely dealt with. Regardless of no RUC the ability to catch people is so much better. Up the prison sentences and lick them away for life. No parole.

Let's see how they'll square that

Locking people up will increase the desire of others in their community for violence

This goes for both Irish nationalist and British nationalist

It would act as a rallying call

Did internment teach you nothing

Did the H-Blocks teach you nothing

The only way you can stop this is to quell the crazy nationalist sentiments which lead to people getting locked up in the first place

Nationalisms are what lead to thirst for killing

What is so crazy about a nationalistic outlook, it's a perfectly legitimate aspiration. Without it, empires would have flourished as imperialism took hold as bigger nations plundered and persecuted the native people. Or should the natives nod obediently say nothing and learn to serve their masters. The Irish state was founded on the same  'crazy nationalism' that seems to irk you. But yet you reckon it is the desire to break free from historical oppression and subservience that is the problem rather than the oppressors themselves, that is certainly an alternative outlook.       

Empires were all based on nationalism

Nationalism eats all before it

Nationalism and hatred of the other are indivisible

Nationalism taken to its logical conclusion leads to mass murder and genocide

Personally I think there's a decent case that every national flag in the world should be burned

I certainly think every Union Jack and Tricolour on this island and especially in NI should be burned

Flags in NI are used purely to antagonise the other and most of this board is made up of fleggers

Nationalism was bolstered and grew out of  those very empires. The problem was those empires themselves where the few attempted to impose their will and laws to rule over millions of natives often in far distant lands with entirely different cultures. Yet you perceive the problem as being those same nation states in wanting the right to self determination.

Do you think Ireland was correct to strike out for independence in the early 20th century then, since what was that only borne out of nationalism and a strike against a foreign ruler?

The issue of flags is a separate issue and I'm no great supporter of flags, they are most often used simply as a way of marking out territory. I don't get the obsession with them even if I can understand others living in interface areas and why they do it.

1916 wasn't only borne out of nationalism

James Connolly and the Citizen Army weren't nationalists

They saw an independent Ireland as the best avenue to a socialist society, the lot of workers, of people, regardless of background, was what they cared about

In order to achieve this, they made an alliance with the rest of the 1916 rebels who were nationalist

Pearse was a fanatical nationalist, like really f**king fanatical, his speech at the O'Donovan Rossa funeral is totally bonkers

I'm ambivalent enough about the concept of Irish independence, Do I think it's better we're independent now? Yes, probably, because the UK is a fairly rotten polity largely controlled by a cabal of southern English conservatives, and the British Empire was even more rotten

And I would prefer not to be part of that

But that said, independent Ireland was a pretty rotten place for most of the 20th century, probably much more rotten than the UK was in that time

Having thought a lot about this in recent years, I'm neither proud nor ashamed to be Irish, and by Irish I mean somebody who comes from the island of Ireland and a citizen of an independent Irish state, it's an accident of birth and an accident of birth on the part of everybody else who was born into it

Ireland is decent enough now because we started to look outward rather than inward, it has changed a lot, it's far from the worst place, far from perfect but overall there are few places I'd rather live

Were it possible for Ireland to be a fair and just society as part of the United Kingdom, independence wouldn't really have mattered, why would it, who cares what flag flies

It probably wasn't possible though

Is it possible for Northern Ireland to be a fair and just society as part of the UK or as part of an independent Irish state? I don't know, but that's what yis should be focussing on, not on what state NI is part of

As Joe Brolly says, whichever flag flies above Stormont isn't going to matter - the question of a united Ireland is basically irrelevant

Flegs don't put bread and ice cream on the table

It's how the politicians and the people in NI behave that will determine what sort of society NI has

As long as yis divide yerselves into usuns and themuns it'll continue be a shithole  - whether part of the UK or an independent Irish state

[sid waddell]

In regards to the historical arguments going, when did any major event ever revolve around one contributing event or 'fact', idiotic to think in such black & white terms, most major events have many contributing factors, Irish Civil War included.

Aye, and partition was a fringe one, if even that, it was was basically irrelevant

But according to Lar it was "the reason"

[sid waddell]

Sid, what had the American Civil War got to do with Partition?
You draw some sort of analogy there but I'm sure damned if I can follow you.
Same as with the controversy over Aonghus MacGrianna's attempt at humour on New Year's Eve.
I merely said the hoor should have apologised and you came back with a bizarre potpourri of accusations, insinuations and over the top generalisations.
How you associate my simple statement with the rape and murder of Manuela Raedo was off the Richter  scale in terms of logic . What connection you could see between me and Eamon Martin, the I Own Her Institute and ''je suis Charlie" left me puzzled.
As far  as I was concerned, Eamon Martin, David O'Brien and anyone else who was bothered one way about the skit's contents could go around to the back of the RTE canteen and kick the shins off each other.
No particular offence intended but you appear to have developed hyperbole into a  form of art.

I'm not sure what the US Civil War has to do with partition

Perhaps you can tell me

Maybe you can also tell me what Manuela Riedo or Aengus MacGrianna have to with partition

Because I haven't a clue

You clearly do though

[Lar Naparka]

Disagreements over the oath was the main reason for the Civil War, Lar

Not partition

The oath and partition were entirely separate things

Somewhere along the line you seem to have picked up the belief that the oath and partition were exactly the same thing

They weren't

Which of us came up with the following?
"I mean people have tried to come up with narratives to say the US Civil War was not about slavery, they do this all the time actually"
You recognise it?
I certainly didn't bring the American Civil War into any discussion with you.
Throw enough shite and some  of it will stick appears to be your line of debate as I instanced when I was daft enough to engage you over the MacGrianna attempt at humour.
It should have been obvious that I wac referring to your Blietzkrig approach to logical discussion.
Finally sid, I am still waiting for you to backup your contention that the taking of the Oath of Allegiance led to the Civil War.

[Lar Naparka]

How about concentrating on the future in this thread?
If people want to rehash 100 years ago set up a separate one.
We may be able to shape the future but we certainly can NOT reshape the past.

Couldn't agree more. I thought I was cute enough not to get drawn into a dogfight with one of the Terrible Twins.

[michaelg]

My idea is a Confederation of 2 "home rule" areas run by slimmed down Dáil and Stormont.
The "Confederacy" to be in charge of major items, foreign affairs etc.
GFA provisions re dual Nationality, passports etc to continue in the 6 Co area.

What's the point then?  Particularly, if as you say, Nationalsists can live with the current situation.

[yellowcard]

If a republican grouping goes back to killing because the loyalists are doing it then they'll have achieved what they want. Game over. No poll or no votes going towards it.

The thirst for killing is gone. You can blood and thunder all you want but committing crimes will be severely dealt with. Regardless of no RUC the ability to catch people is so much better. Up the prison sentences and lick them away for life. No parole.

Let's see how they'll square that

Locking people up will increase the desire of others in their community for violence

This goes for both Irish nationalist and British nationalist

It would act as a rallying call

Did internment teach you nothing

Did the H-Blocks teach you nothing

The only way you can stop this is to quell the crazy nationalist sentiments which lead to people getting locked up in the first place

Nationalisms are what lead to thirst for killing

What is so crazy about a nationalistic outlook, it's a perfectly legitimate aspiration. Without it, empires would have flourished as imperialism took hold as bigger nations plundered and persecuted the native people. Or should the natives nod obediently say nothing and learn to serve their masters. The Irish state was founded on the same  'crazy nationalism' that seems to irk you. But yet you reckon it is the desire to break free from historical oppression and subservience that is the problem rather than the oppressors themselves, that is certainly an alternative outlook.       

Empires were all based on nationalism

Nationalism eats all before it

Nationalism and hatred of the other are indivisible

Nationalism taken to its logical conclusion leads to mass murder and genocide

Personally I think there's a decent case that every national flag in the world should be burned

I certainly think every Union Jack and Tricolour on this island and especially in NI should be burned

Flags in NI are used purely to antagonise the other and most of this board is made up of fleggers

Nationalism was bolstered and grew out of  those very empires. The problem was those empires themselves where the few attempted to impose their will and laws to rule over millions of natives often in far distant lands with entirely different cultures. Yet you perceive the problem as being those same nation states in wanting the right to self determination.

Do you think Ireland was correct to strike out for independence in the early 20th century then, since what was that only borne out of nationalism and a strike against a foreign ruler?

The issue of flags is a separate issue and I'm no great supporter of flags, they are most often used simply as a way of marking out territory. I don't get the obsession with them even if I can understand others living in interface areas and why they do it.

1916 wasn't only borne out of nationalism

James Connolly and the Citizen Army weren't nationalists

They saw an independent Ireland as the best avenue to a socialist society, the lot of workers, of people, regardless of background, was what they cared about

In order to achieve this, they made an alliance with the rest of the 1916 rebels who were nationalist

Pearse was a fanatical nationalist, like really f**king fanatical, his speech at the O'Donovan Rossa funeral is totally bonkers

I'm ambivalent enough about the concept of Irish independence, Do I think it's better we're independent now? Yes, probably, because the UK is a fairly rotten polity largely controlled by a cabal of southern English conservatives, and the British Empire was even more rotten

And I would prefer not to be part of that

But that said, independent Ireland was a pretty rotten place for most of the 20th century, probably much more rotten than the UK was in that time

Having thought a lot about this in recent years, I'm neither proud nor ashamed to be Irish, and by Irish I mean somebody who comes from the island of Ireland and a citizen of an independent Irish state, it's an accident of birth and an accident of birth on the part of everybody else who was born into it

Ireland is decent enough now because we started to look outward rather than inward, it has changed a lot, it's far from the worst place, far from perfect but overall there are few places I'd rather live

Were it possible for Ireland to be a fair and just society as part of the United Kingdom, independence wouldn't really have mattered, why would it, who cares what flag flies

It probably wasn't possible though

Is it possible for Northern Ireland to be a fair and just society as part of the UK or as part of an independent Irish state? I don't know, but that's what yis should be focussing on, not on what state NI is part of

As Joe Brolly says, whichever flag flies above Stormont isn't going to matter - the question of a united Ireland is basically irrelevant

Flegs don't put bread and ice cream on the table

It's how the politicians and the people in NI behave that will determine what sort of society NI has

As long as yis divide yerselves into usuns and themuns it'll continue be a shithole  - whether part of the UK or an independent Irish state

The Irish Citizen Army were not the main protagonists behind independence and to think otherwise is simply to rewrite history. The driving force was a nationalism in the same way as many failed rebellions of the past.

Had others shown your same ambivalence towards gaining their independence 100 years ago, then you would still be a part of the British state led by English Tories and for which you have suggested is a rotten state. That's where a 'sit on your hands' approach gets you instead of trying to improve things for society from within.

Where do you draw the line in preventing people's aspiration to having a common identity with a shared common goal then. Without it the focus would be entirely on the individual and taken away from the collective. Would we even have a GAA without club or county boundaries where identity is everything.

It won't be an easy problem to solve in the north but try and erode the blatant sectarianism and you go a long way to solving the problem. Rather than divide people from the cradle, educate them together and that is a starting point. If that works then gradually introduce shared living spaces and work forward in incremental steps. In another generation or two you could be in a different space but it requires creative thinking not a 'do nothing' approach.

As for Joe Brolly, he wrote an article in the Sunday Independent only a week previously stating it was time for a United Ireland so I wouldn't pass much remarks on Joe. He'd probably have another different opinion again today if you asked him.