HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[dublin7]

Starting conversations about how it might work is not forcing it sid. Remember brexit? You fire on with the witty memes and the tacit insults though.

You can have all the conversations you like

Doesn't change the fact that there currently isn't a majority in NI for a united Ireland, or anything close to it

For there to be a majority, you need two things i) time and ii) NI to fail even more than it is already failing

You can't force i) and forcing ii) is a terrible idea

I agree. Cant be forced. Hence the need for discussion and preparation for the possibility that it may occur in the future. To just ignore it is folly. Things are changing here. Our youth are articulate, energetic and passionate about their nationality, they won't bomb or shoot, they will articulate the argument. This isn't going away Sid.

While your point is sound in theroy the reality is discussions would require the DUP and SF to meet, compromise and god forbid be civil to each other. At the moment it's unlikely both parties would even agree to meet with each other and the assembly was shut down for over a year as neither party was willing to compromise and seem to be more intent on antagonising each other

[Snapchap]

Starting conversations about how it might work is not forcing it sid. Remember brexit? You fire on with the witty memes and the tacit insults though.

You can have all the conversations you like

Doesn't change the fact that there currently isn't a majority in NI for a united Ireland, or anything close to it

For there to be a majority, you need two things i) time and ii) NI to fail even more than it is already failing

You can't force i) and forcing ii) is a terrible idea

I agree. Cant be forced. Hence the need for discussion and preparation for the possibility that it may occur in the future. To just ignore it is folly. Things are changing here. Our youth are articulate, energetic and passionate about their nationality, they won't bomb or shoot, they will articulate the argument. This isn't going away Sid.

While your point is sound in theroy the reality is discussions would require the DUP and SF to meet, compromise and god forbid be civil to each other. At the moment it's unlikely both parties would even agree to meet with each other and the assembly was shut down for over a year as neither party was willing to compromise and seem to be more intent on antagonising each other

If your analysis of the assembly collapse is as grossly over-simplistic as "they were as bad as eachother", then you need to go away and do a bit of reading up about it.

[dublin7]

Starting conversations about how it might work is not forcing it sid. Remember brexit? You fire on with the witty memes and the tacit insults though.

You can have all the conversations you like

Doesn't change the fact that there currently isn't a majority in NI for a united Ireland, or anything close to it

For there to be a majority, you need two things i) time and ii) NI to fail even more than it is already failing

You can't force i) and forcing ii) is a terrible idea

I agree. Cant be forced. Hence the need for discussion and preparation for the possibility that it may occur in the future. To just ignore it is folly. Things are changing here. Our youth are articulate, energetic and passionate about their nationality, they won't bomb or shoot, they will articulate the argument. This isn't going away Sid.

While your point is sound in theroy the reality is discussions would require the DUP and SF to meet, compromise and god forbid be civil to each other. At the moment it's unlikely both parties would even agree to meet with each other and the assembly was shut down for over a year as neither party was willing to compromise and seem to be more intent on antagonising each other

If your analysis of the assembly collapse is as grossly over-simplistic as "they were as bad as eachother", then you need to go away and do a bit of reading up about it.

So you think SF had no responsibility for the collapse and the fact it lasted 3 years? I know the British get accused of revising history, but it seems they're not the only ones

[seafoid]

Giveittotheshooters and the rest of the Shinners are going to have to get real


https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-peace-process-offers-lessons-for-those-who-seek-united-ireland-1.4520277
Diarmaid Ferriter: Peace process offers lessons for those who seek united Ireland
What is needed at very least is a North-South Citizen's Assembly over the long term


Diarmaid Ferriter
30


"Ripeness is all". These words from Shakespeare's King Lear were believed by Seán Ó hUiginn, head of the Anglo-Irish division of the Department of Foreign Affairs in the mid-1990s, to be also a maxim applying to the politics of the peace process. Exactly 25 years ago Ó hUiginn and others were dealing with the fallout from the Canary Wharf bombing in London that marked the end of the IRA's 17-month ceasefire and temporarily derailed the fragile dialogue.

The discussions got back on track, but not without much recrimination, the consequence of what Ó hUiginn referred to as events that "recharged the toxic legacy of distrust" and indicated that the time was not ripe for as much progress as some desired. For others, of course, the time was never and will never be ripe. That can be said of Irish unity as well, a subject that has received much attention this week arising out of the RTÉ Claire Byrne Live show devoted to the subject. It was, by and large, a calm and reasoned discussion, but also one with reminders of prematurity of premise.

As the centenary of the creation of Northern Ireland approaches and in the context of Brexit and the increased political strength of Sinn Féin as well as the wider shakiness of the UK and the increased isolation of the DUP, those intent on seeking a border poll are robustly making their case. But it also appears there is a temptation to ignore what is uncomfortably under our noses in preference for loftier, abstract declarations about historical destiny and inevitability. The bald reality is that this small island has not managed a coherent north-south unity in relation to dealing with a devastating pandemic over the last year. That, surely, is an indication of the unity mountain to climb, as is the underuse or neglect of structures already provided for or envisaged in 1998 in relation to dialogue and co-operation, such as an independent North-South consultative forum comprising "social partners".

Joe Brolly disconnected during RTÉ united Ireland debate after DUP remarks
Taoiseach pushes back against calls in US for referendum on Irish unity
Friends of Sinn Féin places ads in US newspapers calling for referendum on Irish unity
The focus needs to shift from excessive concentration on the DUP and Sinn Féin to incorporate civic groups
That raises the wider question of what would be involved in, say, a 10-year plan towards a border poll. In recent years, Ó hUiginn and others involved in the peace process on both the British and Irish sides have given detailed overviews of what went in to achieving agreement in 1998; investments that were political, intellectual and practical, requiring a structured and inclusive "process". Civil servants, diplomats and politicians did much to create what have been termed "zones of convergence" which surely are also an essential prerequisite to creating any kind of dynamic towards unity.

Political extremities
While there is inevitably much focus on political extremities, the late Seamus Mallon of the SDLP suggested that whatever divides nationalists and unionists, what they have in common is being "largely detached from the mother countries which they identify so strongly with". That was something Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness also used to refer to; what he termed the "gulf in understanding" between those north and south who might share a desire for unity but lived with hard mental borders. The chasm between northern unionists and London is also striking and long-standing; Tony Blair used to despair of the self-defined purity of the Orange Order men: "There is nothing more irritating than sitting in a room with someone who claims to be British but who treats you as though you are nothing to do with Britain, even though you are the prime minister."

Mallon also warned of a premature border poll that would only create greater disunity, leading to a "captured unionist minority inside a state from which they are completely alienated. Does that sound familiar?" What is needed at the very least is a north-south citizen's assembly over the long-term to discuss what both sides of the island have, or need to have, in common along with confronting what divides them.

The focus also needs to shift from excessive concentration on the DUP and Sinn Féin to incorporate civic groups. Consider, for example, the plea from a sizeable group of civic unionists exactly three years ago who called for "a transparent and inclusive debate covering rights, truth, equality and civil liberty" as the noise around Brexit drowned them out. Bread and butter issues concerning economic convergence, social and health services and standards of living are also of paramount importance. Attention too, needs to be given to another observation of Ó hUiginn: "Measures to respect the divided allegiances of Northern Ireland are already pledged to continue with reversed polarity in the event of a change of flag. This dimension of the Belfast Agreement is rarely discussed".

Insistence on precise timetables seems unwise; as Eamonn Gallagher, the first to head the department of foreign affair's Northern Ireland unit put it: "I have never thought that the timescale for unity was important. What we have to do is create the conditions for natural development". That process can only be painstaking.

[Maroon Manc]

Had a look at the 2011 census, 10.3% of Catholics considered themselves to be British whilst 26.9% considered themselves to be Northern Irish; It will be interesting to see how that differs from 2021 census which has just finished.

[Armagh18]

Starting conversations about how it might work is not forcing it sid. Remember brexit? You fire on with the witty memes and the tacit insults though.

You can have all the conversations you like

Doesn't change the fact that there currently isn't a majority in NI for a united Ireland, or anything close to it

For there to be a majority, you need two things i) time and ii) NI to fail even more than it is already failing

You can't force i) and forcing ii) is a terrible idea

I agree. Cant be forced. Hence the need for discussion and preparation for the possibility that it may occur in the future. To just ignore it is folly. Things are changing here. Our youth are articulate, energetic and passionate about their nationality, they won't bomb or shoot, they will articulate the argument. This isn't going away Sid.

While your point is sound in theroy the reality is discussions would require the DUP and SF to meet, compromise and god forbid be civil to each other. At the moment it's unlikely both parties would even agree to meet with each other and the assembly was shut down for over a year as neither party was willing to compromise and seem to be more intent on antagonising each other

If your analysis of the assembly collapse is as grossly over-simplistic as "they were as bad as eachother", then you need to go away and do a bit of reading up about it.

So you think SF had no responsibility for the collapse and the fact it lasted 3 years? I know the British get accused of revising history, but it seems they're not the only ones

I'm definitely not SF's biggest fan, but there was one party who kept Stormont down and it wasn't SF. Not remember when the deal was done until Arlenes's bosses in the UVF/UDA said no?

[Milltown Row2]

Had a look at the 2011 census, 10.3% of Catholics considered themselves to be British whilst 26.9% considered themselves to be Northern Irish; It will be interesting to see how that differs from 2021 census which has just finished.

I think the Northern Irish thing will probably be the same, there is a swathe of people who have no association with the south and don't recognise Dublin as the seat of power. My kids have Irish passports so I'd be interested in knowing what they put in that box, considering their upbringing..

[Rossfan]

Starting conversations about how it might work is not forcing it sid. Remember brexit? You fire on with the witty memes and the tacit insults though.

You can have all the conversations you like

Doesn't change the fact that there currently isn't a majority in NI for a united Ireland, or anything close to it

For there to be a majority, you need two things i) time and ii) NI to fail even more than it is already failing

You can't force i) and forcing ii) is a terrible idea

I agree. Cant be forced. Hence the need for discussion and preparation for the possibility that it may occur in the future. To just ignore it is folly. Things are changing here. Our youth are articulate, energetic and passionate about their nationality, they won't bomb or shoot, they will articulate the argument. This isn't going away Sid.

The discussion is well underway and will continue.

[charlieTully]

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/columnists/2021/03/26/news/alex-kane-for-many-unionists-the-ending-of-partition-spells-the-end-of-their-identity-2266634/

[Rossfan]

English people living in Spain are still English and don't need the British Government to be in charge of where they live to remain English.
Similarly Irish people emigrated all over and remain Irish.
People who identify as Irish in the North remain Irish despite being under London rule.
Yet this crowd can't be British unless the British Government is in charge.?

[Snapchap]

Starting conversations about how it might work is not forcing it sid. Remember brexit? You fire on with the witty memes and the tacit insults though.

You can have all the conversations you like

Doesn't change the fact that there currently isn't a majority in NI for a united Ireland, or anything close to it

For there to be a majority, you need two things i) time and ii) NI to fail even more than it is already failing

You can't force i) and forcing ii) is a terrible idea

I agree. Cant be forced. Hence the need for discussion and preparation for the possibility that it may occur in the future. To just ignore it is folly. Things are changing here. Our youth are articulate, energetic and passionate about their nationality, they won't bomb or shoot, they will articulate the argument. This isn't going away Sid.

While your point is sound in theroy the reality is discussions would require the DUP and SF to meet, compromise and god forbid be civil to each other. At the moment it's unlikely both parties would even agree to meet with each other and the assembly was shut down for over a year as neither party was willing to compromise and seem to be more intent on antagonising each other

If your analysis of the assembly collapse is as grossly over-simplistic as "they were as bad as eachother", then you need to go away and do a bit of reading up about it.

So you think SF had no responsibility for the collapse and the fact it lasted 3 years? I know the British get accused of revising history, but it seems they're not the only ones

SF made the move to collapse it. And if you think the reasons they did so are as much the fault of SF as the DUP, then you seriously need to cop yourself on.

Unless of course SF also reneged on Language Act commitments promised as preconditions to power sharing, back at St Andrews, or was that just the DUP?
Or unless SF were refusing to enact a Bill of Rights as was agreed in 1998 in the GFA, or was the just the DUP?
Or unless SF were blocking sex marriage, despite the majority of MLAs being in support of it, or was the just the DUP?
Or unless SF also took £500m of tax payers money and burned in in wood pellet boilers and then refused to see their leader, who oversaw this scheme, to take responsibility for it and resign, or was that just the DUP?
Or unless SF were blocking funding for legacy inquests, or was the just the DUP?
Or unless it was actually SF who backed out of a deal to re-instate the institutions because the Orange Order and the UDA told them they didn't like the sound of it, or was that the DUP?

[dublin7]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything? Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

[Snapchap]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

[Kidder81]

SF & DUP get on well enough when it suits them, ie dishing out money to themselves and various groups littered with family and friends, at council level and executive level.

[dublin7]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.