Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

Started by Trevor Hill, January 18, 2010, 12:28:52 AM

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ardmhachaabu

#105
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 09:32:26 PM
With the Iris carry on putting pressure on the DUP from one side, and the TUV from the other, the DUP will be sh1tting a brick at the thought of fresh assembly elections should McGuinness walk. Why else would they suddenly be OK with a voting pact with the UUP? SF have the DUP over a barrel here, if SF quitting the negotiations now doesn't make the DUP take the threat to collapse the assembly seriously, perhaps SF should now call their bluff and collapse it. SF would clean up in fresh elections anyway.
Do you mean that partitionist assembly at Stormont?
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

Nally Stand

No other one. What do you think? Or do you mean to say SF should sit in the 32 county assembly? It doesn't exist yet so the best they can do is have representatives in the north and south to advance unity. If you have nothing constructive to debate about my post or related posts I'll not waste my time rerunning older arguments from the thread.
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 09:56:40 PM
No other one. What do you think? Or do you mean to say SF should sit in the 32 county assembly? It doesn't exist yet so the best they can do is have representatives in the north and south to advance unity. If you have nothing constructive to debate about my post or related posts I'll not waste my time rerunning older arguments from the thread.
I am sure you won't, it hasn't done you much good so far

You have contradicted yourself in this thread, IMO, you are too blinkered to even see that much.  Take the SF blinkers off and have a look at the world around you.  I have given constructive arguments as to why SF are full of sh!t about Irish unity.  You have given the usual SF response and stuck your head in the sand and ignored it

You can't have it both ways, they are either a republican party or a partitionist one - the fact they are sitting in both partitionist parliaments would indicate they now accept partition

In any case, I am done playing with you.  SF lackeys are just no fun these days
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

Nally Stand

#108
You may be done "playing" but at least answer me this in response to your last post. If sitting in both parliaments is partitionist, is it not more partitionist to sit in just one and feel that the other has nothing to do with you (eg. every other party in Ireland)? Or is it that you feel they should sit in neither in order to not be partitionist and if that is the case, what method would they then use to advance the cause of unity?
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

Zapatista

#109
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 22, 2010, 10:04:07 PM

You can't have it both ways, they are either a republican party or a partitionist one - the fact they are sitting in both partitionist parliaments would indicate they now accept partition

That's a very lazy effort. Can you elaborate?

I'd say SF do accpet partition. I'd actually hope so. Last time I checked the country was partitioned and I'd like to think they noticed it. I'd also say they don't agree to it and are actively trying to unite the country. It would be a little silly to try to unite something if you don't accept it is partitioned.

Nally Stand

Agree 100% zap. Just hope ardmhacha can honour us with a serious reply to my above questions.
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

Maguire01

Quote from: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 10:16:02 PM
Or is it that you feel they should sit in neither in order to not be partitionist...
Was that not SF policy until relatively recently? Not that i'm saying it was right.

Quote from: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 10:16:02 PM
...and if that is the case, what method would they then use to advance the cause of unity?
Well i'd imagine the majority prefer the current peaceful political means, as the majority always did.

Zapatista

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 23, 2010, 10:04:06 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 10:16:02 PM
Or is it that you feel they should sit in neither in order to not be partitionist...
Was that not SF policy until relatively recently? Not that i'm saying it was right.



There was no assembley to take a seat in untill relatively recently.

Maguire01

Quote from: Zapatista on January 23, 2010, 10:18:54 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 23, 2010, 10:04:06 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 22, 2010, 10:16:02 PM
Or is it that you feel they should sit in neither in order to not be partitionist...
Was that not SF policy until relatively recently? Not that i'm saying it was right.

There was no assembley to take a seat in untill relatively recently.
I was referring primarily to their policy change re Dáil Éireann in 1986. (But didn't their abstentionist policy extend to the old NI Parliament?) Presumably the basis for this abstentionism was that sitting in these would have been partitionist?

Nally Stand

#114
Firstly 1986, in context of the instability, was not recent. And secondly, your point re. current political means is irrelevant. I asked what method Sinn Fein should use if their current path, according to ardmhaca, is wrong. Sinn Fein ARE trying to achieve a united Ireland by peaceful means. And obviously it's what the majority always wanted. That however does not mean it was always realistically possible, as it now is.
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

Maguire01

Quote from: Nally Stand on January 23, 2010, 10:43:26 AM
Firstly 1986, in context of the instability, was not recent.
But how was the policy of abstentionism appropriate in 1985 and not in 1986? Was 1986 that much more stable that 1985?


Basically i'm in agreement with you on two main points. Sinn Fein should sit in both the Dáil and the Assembly. And the aspiration for a United Ireland should by advanced by exclusively peaceful and political means.

The point is that some of us had worked that out a very long time ago.

Zapatista

#116
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 23, 2010, 10:35:18 AM
I was referring primarily to their policy change re Dáil Éireann in 1986. (But didn't their abstentionist policy extend to the old NI Parliament?) Presumably the basis for this abstentionism was that sitting in these would have been partitionist?

That's 25 years ago. Yes that was their policy. I wouldn't really have considered them as a political party back then though. Their candidates were usually prisoners who couldn't take seats anyway such as Bobby Sands MP and Kieran Doherty TD. I think their basis was that they didn't recognise either as legitimate (maybe they still don't?) Rather than them being partitionist they believed the IRA were the legitimate Government of Ireland. None of it is relevant though as SF weren't a political party then they were just spokespersons and support groups for the IRA.

ardmhachaabu

#117
Quote from: Zapatista on January 23, 2010, 08:27:00 AM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 22, 2010, 10:04:07 PM

You can't have it both ways, they are either a republican party or a partitionist one - the fact they are sitting in both partitionist parliaments would indicate they now accept partition

That's a very lazy effort. Can you elaborate?

I'd say SF do accpet partition. I'd actually hope so. Last time I checked the country was partitioned and I'd like to think they noticed it. I'd also say they don't agree to it and are actively trying to unite the country. It would be a little silly to try to unite something if you don't accept it is partitioned.
I remember the Shinners using exactly the same language about partitionist parliaments in the 80's and even early 90s.  It shows how much they have changed that they are now sitting in what is a partitionist parliament, they said they would never do that.  No return to Stormont and all that. 

If you look at it objectively, they have deviated so far from their initial political objectives.  Calling for re-unification, holding meetings to talk about it etc are all very good but it's merely a smokescreen.  They know they can't deliver on a united Ireland and what's more is people in the south look at SF and see that as their only real policy on anything.  They are floundering in politics in the south because they don't have a support base to call on like they do in the north and also because they gloss over the big issues when it comes down to local politics.  People in the south and a growing number of people in the north don't care about unification.  They worry more about putting food on the table and other mundane issues.  Incidentally Zap, I am not against them being in the Dail or Stormont, I think it's practical politics to be involved. 

As an afterthought, I wonder how long it will be until they are nobodies, just like Workers Party/Democratic Left whom they called a partitionist party at the time
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

Nally Stand

#118
1985 and '86 were both reactions to the events of the day. The IRA statement on the canary wharf bomb in '96 referred to how it believed there was a chance in 1994, when it declared permanent ceasefire, for the peace process to begin in earnest. The british government's unwillingness to take it seriously resulted in canary wharf. Clearly as far back as 1986 SF saw potential for a peace process that required they take their seats. History shows that this was almost ten years before britain took it seriously.
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

Nally Stand

Oh and ardmhaca, I'm still waiting on a reply to my specific questions to you based on your post I replied with them to.
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore