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Donegal getting nowhere near the amount of attacking space as the Derry match and are looking very limited as a result.

McShane and McBrearty don't look fit enough at this level any more.

We were pathetic. Play like that against Donegal and it be 10 point hammering. I'd say Duffy will be in from the start the next day. Murnin, Soupy Turbo and others anonymous.

I'd say there will definitely be changes for the final. Turbitt, Burns and McElroy out. Nugent, Duffy and McCabe in for those three.

The aristocrats of Ulster haven't a player that can kick a ball 40 metres , that was brutal stuff yesterday. Down are simply a reincarnation of Kilcoo handpassing and soloing the ball up the pitch. It was a dreadful game to watch and summed up all of the ills of Gaelic football. The referee was just as bad and Armagh weren't much better.

The one positive from an Armagh point of view was the substitutions who won us the match. Oisin O'Neill, Duffy and Nugent kicked the winning scores and hopefully there will be changes the next game because otherwise that type of performance or tactical approach will not be good enough.

Whatever the opposite of cute hoorism is, a lot of Armagh fans on this board have it in abundance.

Its called giving an honest opinion. 

Armagh to win by 7 and Donegal to win by 8 this weekend.

It's laughable to hear Laverty citing economic reasons for wanting the teams to toss for home venue. The reality is that he hoped to win the toss and play the game in Newry where he thought they might have a chance, it's got nothing to do with economic reasons.

Most supporters would have been happy with that arrangement given the cost and inconvenience of travelling to Clones but if last year is anything to go by, the Down fans will be vastly outnumbered. Plus Armagh have a good record in Clones and I'm not sure whether Down have a great record. Laverty knows that so he wanted to give his side the best possible chance which is understandable. He is just being disingenuous for the reason.

I didn't see the Derry/Donegal match, but I am seriously impressed by any team allegedly out played who's best players were stymied but still managed 17 points. Goals win games but can be prevented. it was 15 scores to 17.

I can never understand this post match analysis which counts the number of scores rather than total up the number of points. There is a reason why a goal is worth 3 points and that is because they are supposed to be much more difficult to score.

Mickey Harte has yet to prove that he can adapt tactically to prevent goal chances against his side while still carrying a goal threat at the other end of the pitch. He did neither last weekend.   

I dont think Mickey Harte will be too upset that Derry are out of the Ulster. They have the medals from the last 2 years in their pockets. Its all about SAM for them now. They get a nice 4 week break to get themselves ready. I would not be writing them off at all.

From a Derry perspective I don't think its a massive deal to give up an Ulster title if it means that they can regroup and prepare for a tilt at Sam Maguire. But Mickey Harte will definitely be disappointed on a personal level, after all he is there not for any great love of Derry but for personal achievement, the financial package and his legacy. They will be the team that every provincial winner will want to avoid in the group stages.

As for the Glass debate, watching the match on the TV doesn't actually do him justice in terms of performance. His positional play is second to none and he does a lot of off the ball work that is not the most glamorous to watch but is highly effective for his team. Plus he can play football when needed to as well. He is definitely not a moments player as someone suggested earlier, in fact anything but.     

I think Donegal have a big advantage over Tyrone in terms of recovery. Tyrone have a days rest less and extra time in the legs, they will get little or nothing done this week apart from recover work. In any case I think they look to be a team in transition with an awful lot of young players thrown in. I think Donegal could end up winning this match comfortably and set up a repeat of the division 2 national league final. 

It used to be just Jimmys winning matches, now its just 'Jimmy will have something up his sleeve'. 

It wasn't the defeat itself for Derry, it was more the nature of the defeat because whatever way you look at it that was a hammering.

Derry can still recover from that defeat because they have enough recovery time. But huge questions remain over Harte tactically because he was out manoeuvred yet again by Jimmy McGuinness. There was nothing overly surprising about Donegals defensive counter attack style but it was surprising that Derry seemed to have no plan how to break them down.

It's a good result for the remaining teams in Ulster now though as it opens the championship right up and Donegal, Tyrone and Armagh will all think they can win Ulster now tonight.

Thinking about how the lack of interest in games here reflect the general apathy in the community towards football. Used to be you'd have a thread for each of the big games here with multiple pages of craic, analysis and bickering. Now we've one amalgamated thread for all of ulster with very little interest or posts. You'll never see a 100page + thread of tyrone v Armagh banter ever again.

Came across this on YouTube the other day...

https://youtu.be/arMAgKKhltk?si=VJ9e3OEDG69jXF9u

It's a copy of the Sam 2005 dvd with extended highlights throughout that summer. Forgot how good these dvds were. What really stands out for me, outside of the crowds and quality of the football, was the general atmosphere in the games. The type of football played generated and sustained an almost constant noise throughout the match. The number of contests for the ball was significantly higher and its contests that generate that edge of the seat excitement that in turn created a cauldron of atmosphere and spectacle.

Youll still see unreal skills in today's game, mindblowing points and class goals. However, these are small peaks amongst the dredge we have to watch for 80% of the game. Watching games these days and I can't help but notice the level of general chat in the stands, people on phones and flatness. You'll hardly ever hear a chant outside of the odd come on you blues.

I've wrote this post as I've just completed the GAA games survey and hope that something will be found to return our game to its former glory. To me that is moving away from the obsession with possession based football and finding away to create more opportunities for contests in attack, midfield and forwards. Or maybe I'm a grumpy f**ker and will just have to accept transitions, 20+ passes back to the keeper and 30 players inside a 45 multiple times a game. What a load of shite.

The only way you can return to those days is a straight knockout from the start. It won't happen. 20 years ago I'd have sleepless nights about losing to Cavan. Now, whatever, still a lock a group games.

The GAA may be amateur but its money-making machine is as professional as the NFL in the States.

Group stages suck the life out of the championship, I hate them. I think the one extra chance back door system up until the quarter final stage would be much more interesting and would put less pressure on fixture scheduling as well. It's not like those group games are well attended either but there must be extra income generated from TV deals, otherwise I can't see any real upside.

He completely revolutionised tactics in gaelic football and had the tactical wherewithal and strength of personality to set a team up ultra defensively by playing zonal at the back. He didn't care one bit what anybody thought of him and probably still doesn't as it brought him an AI title that they would not have won if playing conventionally. The criticism only bolstered him and created a siege mentality that he seems to need. It was complete outside the box thinking at the time and very gutsy but don't pretend that it didn't set gaelic football back as a spectacle and which has never really recovered since then.

I don't think it was his aim to be ultra defensive because of some form of idealism, it was just that did whatever he thought was required to give them the best possible chance at winning. 

Managers do whatever they have to do to win.

Look at Ancelotti last night; they sat back in the lowest of low blocks played on the break and looked to frustrate City and took their chances on a penalty shootout.

Should we Chastise Ancellotti in the same fashion?

I'm not chastising him at all, he just done what he felt he had to do to win. A managers job is to devise a system of play that gets the best out of the players which he has at his disposal. McGuinness achieved that in his first spell but he will struggle to do it this time around since any tactical advantage will be greatly reduced due to the emphasis now put on data and analytics.

I wouldn't blame him for the state of the gaelic football today but its fairly clear 13 years later that he set the wheels in motion for the spectacle we now have today.   

He completely revolutionised tactics in gaelic football and had the tactical wherewithal and strength of personality to set a team up ultra defensively by playing zonal at the back. He didn't care one bit what anybody thought of him and probably still doesn't as it brought him an AI title that they would not have won if playing conventionally. The criticism only bolstered him and created a siege mentality that he seems to need. It was complete outside the box thinking at the time and very gutsy but don't pretend that it didn't set gaelic football back as a spectacle and which has never really recovered since then.

I don't think it was his aim to be ultra defensive because of some form of idealism, it was just that did whatever he thought was required to give them the best possible chance at winning. 

[I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster]

Is it really? Most counties have goals at the start of the year, get promoted, avoid relegation, beat neighbours etc. do they really need a coping mechanism of devaluing competitions, I seriously doubt it.  There are about 26 counties under the new system never going win Sam, Derry don't need another Ulster but will probably win it, any other county would relish it.

I believe JoG2 was referring the fans attempting to devalue a competition as a defense mechanism for if they don't win it. Armagh will have failed this year (again) if they do not win Ulster. How anyone can think different is beyond me.

What if they lose Ulster but play in an All Ireland final. Is that a bigger failure than winning Ulster and then going out in the groups?

You're changing angles here. What is having a good year, which reaching an AI final for most teams is, got to do with questioning the value of the Anglo Celt cup which you did? A hypothetical appearance in an AI final shouldn't come into the equation.
You're Armagh yes, very surprising considering the last 15+ years winning nothing. Derry winning 2 years ago was incredible, winning back to back was, well incredible. The thought of winning a treble, well that's the stuff of dreams. Worry about any attack on a Sam after.

The answer is the Ulster Championship is not viewed in isolation You've said Armagh will have failed this year if they don't win Ulster. I disagree. They could miss out on Ulster and make an All Ireland final which to me would be far less of a failure than winning Ulster and going out in the group stages. Similarly I'd rather have been promoted this year than win Ulster. That's not to say doing both wouldn't be nice but simply that Ulster can be viewed in isolation.

You are holding the Anglo Celt up as some kind of be all and end all for the season. It's not. For me If your county would prefer to win an Ulster and nothing else this year then it's extremely meaningful. If your county would prefer a deep run in the All Ireland series then Ulster is less meaningful.

Hmm, honestly if you said to me now win Ulster and go out in group or lose in Ulster and lose in a semi final I think I'd take an Ulster given a fair chunk of our team were in primary school when we last won it.

(Pointless argument anyway because if you win Ulster and go in as top seed there would be something seriously wrong if you couldnt at least make a preliminary QF)

That's a perfectly valid view but I don't think it's one universally shared. I don't feel that way and I feel a provincial championship is as meaningful as it once was.

When you have 6 teams capable of beating eachother in a one off game in a competition it's certainly an achievement to win it!!

I genuinely don't think you have that in Ulster this year but I take your point. My issue is that it's not as meaningful as it once was. I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster at the expense of their future progress certainly not to the extent they might have in years gone bye. For me that makes it less meaningful than it used to be. As has the introduction of the back door. As has the moved to being played in April/May. As has the talk of it potentially being axed all together etc etc.

So I don't think I'm devaluing it out of some kind of coping mechanism for not winning it. I think it merely has become devalued. That's not a view shared by all and I accept that.

What do you think those counties are doing (or not doing) to lead you believe that they are giving less than 100%?

I think every county are trying their best to win a provincial title but for some it's just a safeguard mechanism that if they happen to fail along the way. The proper judgement on that will only come when the season has ended and the year as a whole can be properly assessed.

I don't think they plan to peak for a run at Ulster. I think training is set so they are at a good enough level for Ulster but hope to peak for the later matches. I think they know that being at your absolute best from April to August is much more difficult than peaking in mid to late June. I think in the modern sport science approach that many of the top counties have a similar approach.

In a similar vein I don't think fellas will risk injuries by playing when not fit in provincial games the way you would have seen in previous years.

Of course I could be wrong. As you say the only way you'll ever know is in hindsight.

I don't think player fitness levels will fluctuate very much throughout a season the way players are conditioned now. It's not like in the past where players came back pre season with weight to shed and could train for 4-6 week blocks before the League season or championship campaign began. There just isn't the room to do that anymore and they are conditioned to play matches week on week with a good base line fitness level built up. An injured player mightn't wish to put his season in jeopardy by coming back too soon alright but I don't believe that any county aren't giving 100% to win a provincial championship as there aren't that many cups to win.

Kerry and Dublin might be the rare exception as they are so far ahead of the opposition in their provinces they could probably afford to not taper too much before matches and still win their provinces easily.   

[I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster]

Is it really? Most counties have goals at the start of the year, get promoted, avoid relegation, beat neighbours etc. do they really need a coping mechanism of devaluing competitions, I seriously doubt it.  There are about 26 counties under the new system never going win Sam, Derry don't need another Ulster but will probably win it, any other county would relish it.

I believe JoG2 was referring the fans attempting to devalue a competition as a defense mechanism for if they don't win it. Armagh will have failed this year (again) if they do not win Ulster. How anyone can think different is beyond me.

What if they lose Ulster but play in an All Ireland final. Is that a bigger failure than winning Ulster and then going out in the groups?

You're changing angles here. What is having a good year, which reaching an AI final for most teams is, got to do with questioning the value of the Anglo Celt cup which you did? A hypothetical appearance in an AI final shouldn't come into the equation.
You're Armagh yes, very surprising considering the last 15+ years winning nothing. Derry winning 2 years ago was incredible, winning back to back was, well incredible. The thought of winning a treble, well that's the stuff of dreams. Worry about any attack on a Sam after.

The answer is the Ulster Championship is not viewed in isolation You've said Armagh will have failed this year if they don't win Ulster. I disagree. They could miss out on Ulster and make an All Ireland final which to me would be far less of a failure than winning Ulster and going out in the group stages. Similarly I'd rather have been promoted this year than win Ulster. That's not to say doing both wouldn't be nice but simply that Ulster can be viewed in isolation.

You are holding the Anglo Celt up as some kind of be all and end all for the season. It's not. For me If your county would prefer to win an Ulster and nothing else this year then it's extremely meaningful. If your county would prefer a deep run in the All Ireland series then Ulster is less meaningful.

Hmm, honestly if you said to me now win Ulster and go out in group or lose in Ulster and lose in a semi final I think I'd take an Ulster given a fair chunk of our team were in primary school when we last won it.

(Pointless argument anyway because if you win Ulster and go in as top seed there would be something seriously wrong if you couldnt at least make a preliminary QF)

That's a perfectly valid view but I don't think it's one universally shared. I don't feel that way and I feel a provincial championship is as meaningful as it once was.

When you have 6 teams capable of beating eachother in a one off game in a competition it's certainly an achievement to win it!!

I genuinely don't think you have that in Ulster this year but I take your point. My issue is that it's not as meaningful as it once was. I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster at the expense of their future progress certainly not to the extent they might have in years gone bye. For me that makes it less meaningful than it used to be. As has the introduction of the back door. As has the moved to being played in April/May. As has the talk of it potentially being axed all together etc etc.

So I don't think I'm devaluing it out of some kind of coping mechanism for not winning it. I think it merely has become devalued. That's not a view shared by all and I accept that.

What do you think those counties are doing (or not doing) to lead you believe that they are giving less than 100%?

I think every county are trying their best to win a provincial title but for some it's just a safeguard mechanism that if they happen to fail along the way. The proper judgement on that will only come when the season has ended and the year as a whole can be properly assessed.