Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[Mikhail Prokhorov]

It's not condescending HS.

It's disgust.

"What did the SDLP ever do for us?".

f**k me.

I don't particularly disagree with your overall point but asking if someone is too young to remember something is condescending even if it is done in disgust. Asking it when you yourself are also too young to remember is fairly odd.

Ah I see where you're at here now , and I think we're confused.

No I wasn't around for Bloody Sunday and the formation of the Civil Rights Movement, or the formation of the SDLP.

But I was here for 20 years or so where the SDLP used their voice, support and mandate to deliver equal rights for Catholics in NI.

That the Troubles have been kept at bay for 20+ years owes more to equality than anything else. In an ideal world there would be a united Ireland. But co-habiting a space on roughly equal terms isn't a bad way to live.

this 'i'm alright jack' attitude is precisely what's wrong with ireland in general, the sick counties are a backward wasteland, we all have to aim for better 

If "something better" is the 2020 Dublin, where the middle class stockpile houses for AirBNB, which in turn forces the working class to pay almost their entire income on rent, or spend half their day travelling to and from work, then it's time for another Civil Rights movement on the island, but not up North, strangely enough.

unfortunately the republic was never established but we should not give up

this is probably more true today than ever

"If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs."

James Connolly

[Rossfan]

We have a very socialist Republic these days and everyone is complaining

[trailer]

It's not condescending HS.

It's disgust.

"What did the SDLP ever do for us?".

f**k me.

I don't particularly disagree with your overall point but asking if someone is too young to remember something is condescending even if it is done in disgust. Asking it when you yourself are also too young to remember is fairly odd.

Ah I see where you're at here now , and I think we're confused.

No I wasn't around for Bloody Sunday and the formation of the Civil Rights Movement, or the formation of the SDLP.

But I was here for 20 years or so where the SDLP used their voice, support and mandate to deliver equal rights for Catholics in NI.

That the Troubles have been kept at bay for 20+ years owes more to equality than anything else. In an ideal world there would be a united Ireland. But co-habiting a space on roughly equal terms isn't a bad way to live.

this 'i'm alright jack' attitude is precisely what's wrong with ireland in general, the sick counties are a backward wasteland, we all have to aim for better 

If "something better" is the 2020 Dublin, where the middle class stockpile houses for AirBNB, which in turn forces the working class to pay almost their entire income on rent, or spend half their day travelling to and from work, then it's time for another Civil Rights movement on the island, but not up North, strangely enough.

unfortunately the republic was never established but we should not give up

this is probably more true today than ever

"If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs."

James Connolly

Please direct me to any fully socialist republic that has been a success. By all means quote Connolly but lets see you back it up. 

[Main Street]

It's not condescending HS.

It's disgust.

"What did the SDLP ever do for us?".

f**k me.

I don't particularly disagree with your overall point but asking if someone is too young to remember something is condescending even if it is done in disgust. Asking it when you yourself are also too young to remember is fairly odd.

Ah I see where you're at here now , and I think we're confused.

No I wasn't around for Bloody Sunday and the formation of the Civil Rights Movement, or the formation of the SDLP.

But I was here for 20 years or so where the SDLP used their voice, support and mandate to deliver equal rights for Catholics in NI.

That the Troubles have been kept at bay for 20+ years owes more to equality than anything else. In an ideal world there would be a united Ireland. But co-habiting a space on roughly equal terms isn't a bad way to live.

this 'i'm alright jack' attitude is precisely what's wrong with ireland in general, the sick counties are a backward wasteland, we all have to aim for better 

If "something better" is the 2020 Dublin, where the middle class stockpile houses for AirBNB, which in turn forces the working class to pay almost their entire income on rent, or spend half their day travelling to and from work, then it's time for another Civil Rights movement on the island, but not up North, strangely enough.

Yes, the British subsidy tit flows more equal these days,  one tit  for each "community".  How uplifting and dignified that must feel,  equality at last.

[Applesisapples]

Blaming SF for not improving things in NI is just plain wrong, as it would be to blame The DUP, SDLP or any other party. It is a regional assembly charged with spending a Westminster hand out, and diminishing resources. The real meaning full way for any NI political party to bring change will only ever be in the context of a UI where they would hold a balance of power. This will never happen at a UK level and English needs will always prevail.

[trailer]

It's not condescending HS.

It's disgust.

"What did the SDLP ever do for us?".

f**k me.

I don't particularly disagree with your overall point but asking if someone is too young to remember something is condescending even if it is done in disgust. Asking it when you yourself are also too young to remember is fairly odd.

Ah I see where you're at here now , and I think we're confused.

No I wasn't around for Bloody Sunday and the formation of the Civil Rights Movement, or the formation of the SDLP.

But I was here for 20 years or so where the SDLP used their voice, support and mandate to deliver equal rights for Catholics in NI.

That the Troubles have been kept at bay for 20+ years owes more to equality than anything else. In an ideal world there would be a united Ireland. But co-habiting a space on roughly equal terms isn't a bad way to live.

this 'i'm alright jack' attitude is precisely what's wrong with ireland in general, the sick counties are a backward wasteland, we all have to aim for better 

If "something better" is the 2020 Dublin, where the middle class stockpile houses for AirBNB, which in turn forces the working class to pay almost their entire income on rent, or spend half their day travelling to and from work, then it's time for another Civil Rights movement on the island, but not up North, strangely enough.

unfortunately the republic was never established but we should not give up

this is probably more true today than ever

"If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs."

James Connolly

Please direct me to any fully socialist republic that has been a success. By all means quote Connolly but lets see you back it up.

No? Great quote though. Means f**k all, but great quote.

[RedHand88]

Blaming SF for not improving things in NI is just plain wrong, as it would be to blame The DUP, SDLP or any other party. It is a regional assembly charged with spending a Westminster hand out, and diminishing resources. The real meaning full way for any NI political party to bring change will only ever be in the context of a UI where they would hold a balance of power. This will never happen at a UK level and English needs will always prevail.

+1

[trailer]

Blaming SF for not improving things in NI is just plain wrong, as it would be to blame The DUP, SDLP or any other party. It is a regional assembly charged with spending a Westminster hand out, and diminishing resources. The real meaning full way for any NI political party to bring change will only ever be in the context of a UI where they would hold a balance of power. This will never happen at a UK level and English needs will always prevail.

+1

-1
This completely exonerates the DUP for RHI. It absolves SF and the DUP for any issues with SIF or Welfare reform. You cannot simply say that the Assembly does not have the ability to improve peoples lives. That is simply not true. If SF cannot improve peoples lives then get out the way.

[thewobbler]

Blaming SF for not improving things in NI is just plain wrong, as it would be to blame The DUP, SDLP or any other party. It is a regional assembly charged with spending a Westminster hand out, and diminishing resources. The real meaning full way for any NI political party to bring change will only ever be in the context of a UI where they would hold a balance of power. This will never happen at a UK level and English needs will always prevail.

+1

-1
This completely exonerates the DUP for RHI. It absolves SF and the DUP for any issues with SIF or Welfare reform. You cannot simply say that the Assembly does not have the ability to improve peoples lives. That is simply not true. If SF cannot improve peoples lives then get out the way.

For example, SF could have improved the lives of 10 year olds and their parents, by not interfering with the 11+ until they had a plan to replace it with something better.

[trailer]

Blaming SF for not improving things in NI is just plain wrong, as it would be to blame The DUP, SDLP or any other party. It is a regional assembly charged with spending a Westminster hand out, and diminishing resources. The real meaning full way for any NI political party to bring change will only ever be in the context of a UI where they would hold a balance of power. This will never happen at a UK level and English needs will always prevail.

+1

-1
This completely exonerates the DUP for RHI. It absolves SF and the DUP for any issues with SIF or Welfare reform. You cannot simply say that the Assembly does not have the ability to improve peoples lives. That is simply not true. If SF cannot improve peoples lives then get out the way.

For example, SF could have improved the lives of 10 year olds and their parents, by not interfering with the 11+ until they had a plan to replace it with something better.

It's a standard SF line. Tory cuts. Brexit. Never their fault. But when there's credit to be taken they're first on the scene. FFS they even tried to take credit for the Civil rights organisation.

[BennyCake]

SF and co carry out the jobs set by their British overlords. And at same time, Britain absolves itself from any blame of what goes on in the north.

[johnnycool]

Blaming SF for not improving things in NI is just plain wrong, as it would be to blame The DUP, SDLP or any other party. It is a regional assembly charged with spending a Westminster hand out, and diminishing resources. The real meaning full way for any NI political party to bring change will only ever be in the context of a UI where they would hold a balance of power. This will never happen at a UK level and English needs will always prevail.

+1

-1
This completely exonerates the DUP for RHI. It absolves SF and the DUP for any issues with SIF or Welfare reform. You cannot simply say that the Assembly does not have the ability to improve peoples lives. That is simply not true. If SF cannot improve peoples lives then get out the way.

For example, SF could have improved the lives of 10 year olds and their parents, by not interfering with the 11+ until they had a plan to replace it with something better.

IIRC Martin McGuinness commissioned a white paper or other carried out by some specialist in the field, the Burns report. The actual removal of the 11 plus was done by a British minister.
Catroina Ruane subsequently had tried to introduce the new process but was scuppered due to gerrymandering in Stormont;

https://www.education-ni.gov.uk/articles/timeline-development-transfer-policy

The second part was continuous assessment of the child in P6 and P7 with a decision to be made with the schools in question and the childs parents, whether a vocational education or academic education was best for the child, Pupil Profiling. But guess what, the DUP, UUP along with Robert McCartney QC lobbying hard for Grammar schools killed the second part of the deal and we ended up where we are now;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3429541.stm


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15691850

If you're going to criticise someone or something then at least be sure they're guilty of what you're charging them with.


Don't get me wrong, the way the DUP and the Shinners carve up these "community" grants takes me to the cleaners and serves no ones interests long term or short term.

[thewobbler]

Johnny here's how I remember it.

Unionist leaders were always clear that they wanted to retain academic selection. For their own reasons. The majority of Catholic Grammars wanted to retain academic selection, as turkeys don't usually vote for Christmas.

Despite being fully aware of this, SF (Ruane) went and abolished the 11+ anyway.

Hence my complaint a few posts ago. They shouldn't have interfered with 11+ without a plan to replace it. And they didn't have a plan. They had an ideology.

And as a result, many Belfast children now sit 4 x 11 plus equivalents.

——-

I suppose you're entitled to paint unionists as the problem here. Call them backward thinking, child abusers, whatever suits depending on how passionate / angry you are about education.

But actions speak louder than words. SF forced the action. Everything since was a reaction. So I make you wrong.

[johnnycool]

Johnny here's how I remember it.

Unionist leaders were always clear that they wanted to retain academic selection. For their own reasons. The majority of Catholic Grammars wanted to retain academic selection, as turkeys don't usually vote for Christmas.

Despite being fully aware of this, SF (Ruane) went and abolished the 11+ anyway.

Hence my complaint a few posts ago. They shouldn't have interfered with 11+ without a plan to replace it. And they didn't have a plan. They had an ideology.

And as a result, many Belfast children now sit 4 x 11 plus equivalents.

——-

I suppose you're entitled to paint unionists as the problem here. Call them backward thinking, child abusers, whatever suits depending on how passionate / angry you are about education.

But actions speak louder than words. SF forced the action. Everything since was a reaction. So I make you wrong.

SF (Ruane) didn't do this off their own compunction and commissioned the Burns report which not only would have saw the end of the 11+ but the introduction to pupil profiling to replace it which the SDLP supported at the time.

Now I would have thought the changes would have come in as a job lot rather than piecemeal but that happened due to gerrymandering in the assembly as per the links I've attached above.

When people say, what have the Shinners ever done when they've been in power it can be seen from the above that unless you've cross community (or even social class support as per the 11+) its near on impossible to get any substantial changes made in Stormont.
We all know the DUP don't give a flying f**k for working class prods when it comes to education.

The much lauded Bengoa report to be introduced in health either won't happen as it would mean at least three or four hospitals being closed most notably in the Greater Belfast area, either the City, Dundonald and most likely Lisburn at the very least and some elsewhere like Omagh or Newry.
It's never going to happen and they all know it, sitting up in Stormont.

[Wildweasel74]

11+ plus, supervised it many a time, didn't really agree with it in principal, as its alot of pressure on children at a young age, but u don't dispose of sthing until the new procedure is up and running. Now children do multi exams and not even in their own school environment. That lies solely at Sinn Feins door as they forced through doing away with the test and didn't give a shit if a new process was in place or not.