Westminster Election 12th December 2019

Started by Ambrose, October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM

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johnnycool

Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:16:50 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.

Before I go on I not hugely interested in McDonalds as a corporation nor am I adamant that I attach any significance to the £15.00 per hour figure.

But as they are the matters in the spotlight I'll run with the example.

If McDonalds paid a living wage (relative to the location) to their lowest skilled staff the 1 or more of the following 3 happen:
1) McDonalds dont pass on the wages increase and its cut into McDonald's profits.
2) McDonalds pass on the wage increase to consumers who accept it as the see it it as value.
3) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it. Business ceases to be viable.
4) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it Business then agrees to absorb the costs and reduce share dividend and reduce Directors and executives salaries accordingly

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Added in a point 4 that no one seems to talk about.


smelmoth

Quote from: johnnycool on November 13, 2019, 03:28:27 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:16:50 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.

Before I go on I not hugely interested in McDonalds as a corporation nor am I adamant that I attach any significance to the £15.00 per hour figure.

But as they are the matters in the spotlight I'll run with the example.

If McDonalds paid a living wage (relative to the location) to their lowest skilled staff the 1 or more of the following 3 happen:
1) McDonalds dont pass on the wages increase and its cut into McDonald's profits.
2) McDonalds pass on the wage increase to consumers who accept it as the see it it as value.
3) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it. Business ceases to be viable.
4) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it Business then agrees to absorb the costs and reduce share dividend and reduce Directors and executives salaries accordingly

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Added in a point 4 that no one seems to talk about.
4 is a variant of 1.

smelmoth

Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:05:13 PM

Did you see the original introduction of the NMW, its subsequent increases or rebranding as a NLW as the government "shutting down shit companies"?
I honestly can't remember, it was 20 years ago. I've read and seen in practice a lot of economics since though.

Quote
If McDonalds did shut down what would happen to the money spent in it - would it evaporate from the economy? What would happen the meals served in McDonalds - would those people just not eat?

McDonalds will never shut down though, least of all in response to higher staff costs. They'll just continue to automate and their "restaurants" will employ fewer and fewer staff.

Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,

Your automation point is completely valid. I get that. That is one of the reasons why the minimum wage can only work as an element of an overall suite of policies.

A future where business operating on line attach a separate tax structure to those paying property rates is likely to be not far away. the use of technology to displace labour on the high street is a similar challenge. 

five points

Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.

trailer

I have no problem with "Executives" being paid 500k, 600k or £1m+ per year. If they generate profits and grow businesses that then employ more people directly or indirectly then I'm ok with that. They of course should pay their fair share of tax.
Some people think that those in charge should be on minimum wage and those on minimum wage should be on 15ph. When you clock out at McDonalds (or any other low skilled job) you get to go home and not think about anything to do with work until your next shift. When you're accountable to other management, investors, and have to worry about numerous financial commitments the business has then you don't have that luxury.
Remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

seafoid

Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.
Ultimately GBP 15 per hour is like homelessness, poverty in Yorkshire and the alcoholism of ex army people- it's political.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

five points

Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 03:57:25 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.
Ultimately GBP 15 per hour is like homelessness, poverty in Yorkshire and the alcoholism of ex army people- it's political.

£15 per hour for middle-class students and youngsters definitely is political.

smelmoth

Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.

As I said before i'm not focusing on McDonalds per se. We have a wider  issue of wages, especially for low skilled workers and for terms and conditions of labour. I would not be flippant about the availability of real jobs for low skilled labour. By real I mean jobs that not only offer a living wage but worker protections regarding working hours, annual leave, breaks, sick pay and working conditions.

There has been a slew of claims by politicians and some commentators in the media regarding UK employment figures that fall very far short of real jobs. The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable. Its something that needs to eb engaged with   

smelmoth

Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
I have no problem with "Executives" being paid 500k, 600k or £1m+ per year. If they generate profits and grow businesses that then employ more people directly or indirectly then I'm ok with that.
I agree with that in as far as it goes. I would go further though. Not every effort that generates profits and creates employment is equally ok. Obviously one that created employment that paid a living wage would be better than one that didn't. An important distinction.

Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
They of course should pay their fair share of tax.
Couldn't disagree

Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
Some people think that those in charge should be on minimum wage and those on minimum wage should be on 15ph.
Name one person that thinks that?

Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
When you clock out at McDonalds (or any other low skilled job) you get to go home and not think about anything to do with work until your next shift. When you're accountable to other management, investors, and have to worry about numerous financial commitments the business has then you don't have that luxury.
Remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

So the low paid live a low stress life?

I am not saying the following to be a troll but you do sound a wee bit like Jacob Rees Mogg or that intellectual and humanitarian Dominic Rabb

five points

Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

Maroon Manc

2 million people in the UK employed on the minimum wage, don't know how many of those are on full time hours though.


smelmoth

Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet

Kidder81

Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 13, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
2 million people in the UK employed on the minimum wage, don't know how many of those are on full time hours though.

I assume most will be on some sort of state support such as Universal Credit or tax credits

five points

Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 05:16:50 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet

I find Ken Loach insufferable tbh. Each one to their own but to me he's a propagandist.

smelmoth

Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 05:16:50 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet

I find Ken Loach insufferable tbh. Each one to their own but to me he's a propagandist.

Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?