Westminster Election 12th December 2019

[t_mac]

Poor Trailer - Bless - called out and going run away.

[APM]

£15 / hour is about the same as £30k per year!! For working in McDonalds! **

What does that mean then for a supervisor's salary; for a manager's salary!!
Workers will want to maintain their wage differentials relative to other workers.  Teachers should be paid more than classroom assistants and will want to maintain their salary differentials. 

A minimum salary of £15/hour would have a major impact on wage-driven inflation - in a short period of time you would find that £15/hr wouldn't be enough to get by on either? 

Those in the lowest skilled, zero qualifications required jobs, that can be done part-time by 16 year old students, will always find themselves on the lowest wages and struggling to make ends meet.  There is income support in the form of working tax credits for these people.  Perhaps there needs to be more support, to ensure that these people are not falling between the cracks into a benefit trap. 

There is no doubt that inequality has increased.  As a percentage (and certainly in absolute terms), I suspect that there is a widening gap between Doctors and Nurses, Senior Executives and Administrators etc. That ought to be addressed, but you don't address it with fantasy economics, pretending that someone working in McDonalds can have the lifestyle of someone currently working at £30k p/a because that is simply not realistic or sustainable! 

** Edit - I realise that the poster above didn't say £15/hour. 

[magpie seanie]

For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

[smelmoth]

So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?

In what way?

You hardly need me to explain how working in McDonald's is a shit job.

Shit company, shit product, shit atmosphere, shit HR policies.

I have no idea if mcDonalds is a shit company to work for.
I don't suppose staff really care about the product

Wages and conditions tend to be people's main concern and viable alternatives they have

[smelmoth]

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn't say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It's just a lie. Your lie

But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.

Wages are relative. I think most people get that

It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.

The educational value of this site grows

Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven't heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I'm willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don't pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I'm unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures

I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.

How did telling lies fit into your grown up discussion.

You were found out and called out and are now huffing.

If you would like to revert to the substantive points I'm happy to engage

[smelmoth]

£15 / hour is about the same as £30k per year!! For working in McDonalds! **

What does that mean then for a supervisor's salary; for a manager's salary!!
Workers will want to maintain their wage differentials relative to other workers.  Teachers should be paid more than classroom assistants and will want to maintain their salary differentials. 

A minimum salary of £15/hour would have a major impact on wage-driven inflation - in a short period of time you would find that £15/hr wouldn't be enough to get by on either? 

Those in the lowest skilled, zero qualifications required jobs, that can be done part-time by 16 year old students, will always find themselves on the lowest wages and struggling to make ends meet.  There is income support in the form of working tax credits for these people.  Perhaps there needs to be more support, to ensure that these people are not falling between the cracks into a benefit trap. 

There is no doubt that inequality has increased.  As a percentage (and certainly in absolute terms), I suspect that there is a widening gap between Doctors and Nurses, Senior Executives and Administrators etc. That ought to be addressed, but you don't address it with fantasy economics, pretending that someone working in McDonalds can have the lifestyle of someone currently working at £30k p/a because that is simply not realistic or sustainable! 

** Edit - I realise that the poster above didn't say £15/hour.

"These people". Probably just a slip of the keyboard

Wage differential isn't the resolution here. They exist and will persist. The point is people on the lowest rung have to live and a civilised society needs to address what sort of living they can afford. Current system is cracked.

I can't sit down and tell someone below the poverty line and in full time work that they can't have a decent wage because others would have to get a pay ride as well

[magpie seanie]

For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

[TheOptimist]

For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

[five points]

For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

They still are a shit company. They even treat their executives like shit. https://www.thejournal.ie/mcdonalds-ceo-departure-steve-easterbrook-4877995-Nov2019/ We shouldn't be basing our key macroeconomic policies on the practices of shit companies.

[Taylor]

For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

The McDonalds corporation made more because they are taking a bigger slice from franchise owners as well as increased revenue

The current profit margin of 4%-6% for restaurant owners would be closer to 1%-2% if they were paying staff £15hr.

Salary is paid by the restaurant owners so McDonalds themselves dont dictate salary

[APM]

Note what I said about inequality - particularly the salaries of top execs.  I don't think it is defensible.

According to McDonald's website, they employ 120,000 people in the UK**.  Let's assume that relates to 60,000 Full Time Equivalent. 
If McDonald's paid an extra £2.50 per hour for 60,000 employees,  and didn't pass the extra cost onto their customers, it would wipe a profit of £341m out entirely.  That's OK if you don't want profit taking. But profits can a good thing.  It provide's a return for shareholders (often pension funds), an incentive for investment and retained profit can provide the means for reinvestment.  If you wipe out McDonald's profits by giving an extra £2.50/hour to the workers, does that make the business more or less sustainable for the self-same workers and McDonald's suppliers.  It's also worth asking, what level of profit is acceptable - £300m?, £200m? £10m?. 

Whether people like it or not, there is a market for labour and successive governments have correctly intervened in the market to first provide for a minimum wage and then provide a living wage.  There are working tax credits (again maybe these should be increased) to provide a minimum basic income for workers.  However, it is not sustainable for people to go from earning £8/hour to £15/hour overnight, because all that will happen is that will happen is that  the cost of doing business and the cost of living will rise accordingly and the lowest skilled jobs will still end up being the lowest salaries in real terms. 

** Just seen the point above about the franchise owners and I'll admit that I don't know much about their model.

[trailer]

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn't say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It's just a lie. Your lie

But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.

Wages are relative. I think most people get that

It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.

The educational value of this site grows

Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven't heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I'm willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don't pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I'm unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures

I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.

How did telling lies fit into your grown up discussion.

You were found out and called out and are now huffing.

If you would like to revert to the substantive points I'm happy to engage

I didn't tell any lies
I'm not huffing, I'm calling you out for being a cheeky, ill mannered cnut.
You're grand, I'll make my point without engaging with you.

So having said that

£15ph for flipping burgers or doing any sort of low skilled job is crazy economics.

[Kidder81]

There are alway going to be people in low skill, low paid jobs due to having no or limited qualifications. The reasons for that are a totally separate and more complex debate but paying someone £15 an hour to work in McDonalds isn't sensible. I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn knows this but it's election time so we are going to hear all sorts of nonsense that will never happen.

[armaghniac]

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

That  article makes clear that  there are  some roads  where Palestinians are banned. It also makes clear that people have different number plates, which is in itself a form of apartheid.

[seafoid]

Median US wages are more or less the same as in 1975. Wages have been suppressed in favour of capital growth. This is the system.
If Labour win the system will change and those at the bottom will get preferential treatment. This is how capital versus labour works.
The billionaires have a lot of fat.