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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: seafoid on March 15, 2010, 10:05:10 PM

Title: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: seafoid on March 15, 2010, 10:05:10 PM
A very interesting insight in the Irish Times

As one sports psychologist once explained: "If you're a player with an unsuccessful county, you'll have been reared going to matches, watching them lose and returning home in the car listening to adults slagging off the players. It's hard to shut out the negativity."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0310/1224265980283.html

Can counties like Mayo get over this kind of self defeating shite or is losing inevitable ? 
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: magickingdom on March 15, 2010, 10:11:12 PM
galway looked great yesterday.. ;)
Title: Re: Going back to Dunmore shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 15, 2010, 10:28:39 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on March 15, 2010, 10:11:12 PM
galway looked great yesterday.. ;)

I'd be very depressed if I was a Galway fan watching my team lose more than not  ;)
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: stephenite on March 15, 2010, 10:40:04 PM
Clare managed to overcome decades of being defeated - as did Galway in both codes, Mayo were within a kick of a ball and a bad decision of overcoming it in 1996.

For one I don't think players buy into previous generations mistakes and mentality as much as is being made out. f**k the hoodo
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: ziggysego on March 16, 2010, 12:26:21 AM
Everyone in Dublin have been shouting "this is our year" for over 10 years.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: spuds on March 16, 2010, 04:12:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 15, 2010, 10:05:10 PM
A very interesting insight in the Irish Times

As one sports psychologist once explained: "If you're a player with an unsuccessful county, you'll have been reared going to matches, watching them lose and returning home in the car listening to adults slagging off the players. It's hard to shut out the negativity."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0310/1224265980283.html

Can counties like Mayo get over this kind of self defeating shite or is losing inevitable ?
one thing losing when things competetiv but feckin a run of minor hurlers wit bags of medals fallin on there hole in a 3 county competition is woeful molodgin god be with herring chokers
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Pups on March 16, 2010, 08:03:16 AM
I know but this is definitely our year ;)
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Tubberman on March 16, 2010, 08:30:08 AM
Quote from: spuds on March 16, 2010, 04:12:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 15, 2010, 10:05:10 PM
A very interesting insight in the Irish Times

As one sports psychologist once explained: "If you're a player with an unsuccessful county, you'll have been reared going to matches, watching them lose and returning home in the car listening to adults slagging off the players. It's hard to shut out the negativity."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0310/1224265980283.html

Can counties like Mayo get over this kind of self defeating shite or is losing inevitable ?
one thing losing when things competetiv but feckin a run of minor hurlers wit bags of medals fallin on there hole in a 3 county competition is woeful molodgin god be with herring chokers

:D :D You've a way with words Spuds! ;)
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Farrandeelin on March 16, 2010, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: stephenite on March 15, 2010, 10:40:04 PM
Clare managed to overcome decades of being defeated - as did Galway in both codes, Mayo were within a kick of a ball and a bad decision of overcoming it in 1996.

For one I don't think players buy into previous generations mistakes and mentality as much as is being made out. f**k the hoodo

So true. I mean how on Earth has every loss since 1951 going to contribute to the next game?? Not a jot. The players have to rise to the occasion and be ruthless and if they're not good enough, they're not good enough. But you've become a real little p***k lately seafoid.

Oh and what about Tipp?? Winning for fun until 1971, and we could all count on one hand the amount of AIs they've won since. Nothing against Tipp by the way, just saying how that article doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: seafoid on March 16, 2010, 10:03:17 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 16, 2010, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: stephenite on March 15, 2010, 10:40:04 PM
Clare managed to overcome decades of being defeated - as did Galway in both codes, Mayo were within a kick of a ball and a bad decision of overcoming it in 1996.

For one I don't think players buy into previous generations mistakes and mentality as much as is being made out. f**k the hoodo

Oh and what about Tipp?? Winning for fun until 1971, and we could all count on one hand the amount of AIs they've won since. Nothing against Tipp by the way, just saying how that article doesn't make much sense.

Tipp is an interesting case. They still have the swagger even if there is not much to show for it relatively speaking . Having said that they can win all-Irelands in one go which is something that you can't say for every county.

I thought the point about blackguarding the players on the way home in the car after another defeat was interesting. I heard so many ould fellas saying of Galway hurlers "they are no use" on the way home even after a narrow loss and it has to feed into how the crowd reacts if a soft goal goes in- "here we f*"&ing go agin" . Or the county tradition of leaving 10 minutes before the end in disgust.  Because it never goes right. 
Players must pick up on that too. If you look at the stats there are counties that win more all-Irelands than they lose and it has to be all in the head at the end of the day.  Can you manufacture that consistently for a county after a history of loss ? Tyrone at the moment seem to have done it but what are the factors? I heard that HMG invested a lot of money in sport facilities in Norn Irn to keep the boys away from terrism. Is that what did the trick for the Nordy teams? Could it be replicated elsewhere?     
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Cosmo Kramer on March 16, 2010, 10:48:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 16, 2010, 10:03:17 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 16, 2010, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: stephenite on March 15, 2010, 10:40:04 PM
Clare managed to overcome decades of being defeated - as did Galway in both codes, Mayo were within a kick of a ball and a bad decision of overcoming it in 1996.

For one I don't think players buy into previous generations mistakes and mentality as much as is being made out. f**k the hoodo

Oh and what about Tipp?? Winning for fun until 1971, and we could all count on one hand the amount of AIs they've won since. Nothing against Tipp by the way, just saying how that article doesn't make much sense.

Tipp is an interesting case. They still have the swagger even if there is not much to show for it relatively speaking . Having said that they can win all-Irelands in one go which is something that you can't say for every county.

I thought the point about blackguarding the players on the way home in the car after another defeat was interesting. I heard so many ould fellas saying of Galway hurlers "they are no use" on the way home even after a narrow loss and it has to feed into how the crowd reacts if a soft goal goes in- "here we f*"&ing go agin" . Or the county tradition of leaving 10 minutes before the end in disgust.  Because it never goes right. 
Players must pick up on that too. If you look at the stats there are counties that win more all-Irelands than they lose and it has to be all in the head at the end of the day.  Can you manufacture that consistently for a county after a history of loss ? Tyrone at the moment seem to have done it but what are the factors? I heard that HMG invested a lot of money in sport facilities in Norn Irn to keep the boys away from terrism. Is that what did the trick for the Nordy teams? Could it be replicated elsewhere?     

Ya, the oul terrorism has been an awful blight on Connacht football down the years alright.  ::)
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: TacadoirArdMhacha on March 16, 2010, 10:54:23 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 16, 2010, 10:03:17 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 16, 2010, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: stephenite on March 15, 2010, 10:40:04 PM
Clare managed to overcome decades of being defeated - as did Galway in both codes, Mayo were within a kick of a ball and a bad decision of overcoming it in 1996.

For one I don't think players buy into previous generations mistakes and mentality as much as is being made out. f**k the hoodo

Oh and what about Tipp?? Winning for fun until 1971, and we could all count on one hand the amount of AIs they've won since. Nothing against Tipp by the way, just saying how that article doesn't make much sense.

Tipp is an interesting case. They still have the swagger even if there is not much to show for it relatively speaking . Having said that they can win all-Irelands in one go which is something that you can't say for every county.

I thought the point about blackguarding the players on the way home in the car after another defeat was interesting. I heard so many ould fellas saying of Galway hurlers "they are no use" on the way home even after a narrow loss and it has to feed into how the crowd reacts if a soft goal goes in- "here we f*"&ing go agin" . Or the county tradition of leaving 10 minutes before the end in disgust.  Because it never goes right. 
Players must pick up on that too. If you look at the stats there are counties that win more all-Irelands than they lose and it has to be all in the head at the end of the day.  Can you manufacture that consistently for a county after a history of loss ? Tyrone at the moment seem to have done it but what are the factors? I heard that HMG invested a lot of money in sport facilities in Norn Irn to keep the boys away from terrism. Is that what did the trick for the Nordy teams? Could it be replicated elsewhere?     

In a word, no.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: muppet on March 16, 2010, 11:12:08 AM
Quote from: Pups on March 16, 2010, 08:03:16 AM
I know but this is definitely our year ;)

You're too young to remember.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: INDIANA on March 16, 2010, 11:12:21 AM
Quote from: ziggysego on March 16, 2010, 12:26:21 AM
Everyone in Dublin have been shouting "this is our year" for over 10 years.

Not this one don't generalise.

He has a point. There are certain counties out there who are perrenial losers indoctrinated in a losing mentality from prior years. You can see it at club level as well.

Loughnane had to put the Clare hurlers through mental hell to change them. And even then in 1995 they only beat one of the worst Cork hurling teams of all time in 1995 by one point. Had they lost that day it would never have started.

Thats why Gilroy is going with essentially a new team with Dublin because the prior teams couldn't get over prior defeats.
I suspect until Mayo are stripped of another 5/6 of their footballers they won't get over the line either. As they gradually get a few more Aidan O shea's mentality they'll get closer.
Just my opinion but it takes footballers with special character to overcome annual defeat. Only really the Armagh team in 2002 did it. Before then the Cork team of 89/90 did it and the Dublin team of 1995. Other than that I can't think of many others in modern times.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: IolarCoisCuain on March 16, 2010, 12:08:21 PM
Wise words from Indiana as ever. A lot of revolutions would never have happened if the ball hadn't bounced right on the first day, and momentum then built on that.

Seán Óg de Paor and Kevin Walsh have both pointed out how important beating Mayo in Castlebar in May 1998 was to them in winning the All-Ireland that summer. Galway were in a heap for years after they lost to Dublin in 1983. Mayo were easily the best team they faced that year. That Mayo generation will always be cursed for not closing the deal when they had the chance, and they know it. Think of what Liam McHale was saying last year.

The Tipp thing that Seafóid mentions is interesting. I've been lucky enough to be at all the All-Ireland finals Mayo contested since 1996. I was also at the Tipp v Kilkenny hurling final this year, and there was such a marked contrast between the reactions of the Tipp support and the Mayo support. Tipp wanted the game played again at six o'clock that evening. Tipp supporters knew they had Kilkenny, and not only weren't afraid to play them again, but they felt a burning need to play them again.

Mayo supporters left Jones' Road with their heads down, and early season debate has always to do with avoiding Kerry. Tipp would be begging to play Kerry again. Billy Morgan told Cork after Meath beat them in the league that each man was to go down on his knees to pray that the teams meet again in the Championship. That's a winning mentality, and it does not exist in Mayo.

Tipp have the advantage of those thirty-odd All-Irelands, the border rivalry with Kilkenny and all the rest of it. And they have the advantage of having ended the famine in the 'eighties - with some pieces falling into place for them along that trip as well, I might add.

There is certainly is a losing mentality in Mayo. Mayo are never as far away as our greatest moments of despair would indicate, but a lack of mental strength is clearly an issue. A charismatic manager (as in a pure looper) to break that down, such a Mayo Loughnane or a Mayo Morgan, would be a good way of getting around that. Not that the Board would ever appoint one except by accident, of course. Maughan nearly pulled it off in 1996, you know. He nearly did. But nearly doesn't put banbhs in the sow, does it? You're better off poxing one that deserving one, you know. You really are.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Tatler Jack on March 16, 2010, 12:13:50 PM
QuoteSeán Óg de Paor and Kevin Walsh have both pointed out how important beating Mayo in Castlebar in May 1998 was to them in winning the All-Ireland that summer.

Hope they also pointed out how important Seamus Prior was to them in Tuam in the CF drawn game!!!!
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Sandino on March 16, 2010, 12:19:15 PM
I think each squad writes its own destiny and most players can get over a defeat, even a painful one. Tyrone suffered many dissapointments over the years before the breakthrough. Letting go a massive lead against Kerry, Dublin by a disputed point, assault by Meath it seemed it would never happen. But their day did come! So with the right leadership any team with committment and skill can turn from being losers into winners.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: seafoid on March 16, 2010, 12:22:08 PM
If Tipp and Galway were level with 5 minutes to go in an All-Ireland final my money would be on Tipp to squeeze it.  And most of the people in the crowd would expect that too. And the players would. It would take an exceptional Galway team to get over that. The funny thing about Tipp is that they don't have the killer instinct at the highest level. They would still have to defer to the Cats. And they fell to Clare in a very tight match in 1997. And when babs talks about Tipp you know there's something lacking in the actions to back up his fighting words. But it is usually enough to finish off teams of lesser mortals and shaky mental strength.   

In the 2005 final Galway were very close but you knew Cork were going to win it. And that's why Galway hurlers win maybe 1 out of 4 all-Irelands. It has nothing to do with the hurlers.

In Galway's case at least it throws up the odd all-Ireland so it's not as bad as up the road but  the sense of underachievement is very depressing.

The other factor is the lack of patience. If a team loses the whole outfit is often abandoned or else the manager is dropped so you have to start all over again the following year.   Look at how few changes there have been on the Kilkenny team since 2006 and compare to say Galway or Offaly.

   
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: muppet on March 16, 2010, 12:24:45 PM
Quote from: Sandino on March 16, 2010, 12:19:15 PM
I think each squad writes its own destiny and most players can get over a defeat, even a painful one. Tyrone suffered many dissapointments over the years before the breakthrough. Letting go a massive lead against Kerry, Dublin by a disputed point, assault by Meath it seemed it would never happen. But their day did come! So with the right leadership any team with committment and skill can turn from being losers into winners.

Personally I think it is the Mayo supporters that need sports psychiatrists more than any teams we have put out. All this talk of losers comes mainly from supporters and most of it is retrospective. Sportsmen should only play what is in front of them not behind them.

I want you all to repeat after me..........

Mayo will win Sam in 2010.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: mouview on March 16, 2010, 02:27:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 16, 2010, 12:22:08 PM
If Tipp and Galway were level with 5 minutes to go in an All-Ireland final my money would be on Tipp to squeeze it.  And most of the people in the crowd would expect that too. And the players would. It would take an exceptional Galway team to get over that. The funny thing about Tipp is that they don't have the killer instinct at the highest level. They would still have to defer to the Cats. And they fell to Clare in a very tight match in 1997. And when babs talks about Tipp you know there's something lacking in the actions to back up his fighting words. But it is usually enough to finish off teams of lesser mortals and shaky mental strength.   

In the 2005 final Galway were very close but you knew Cork were going to win it. And that's why Galway hurlers win maybe 1 out of 4 all-Irelands. It has nothing to do with the hurlers.

In Galway's case at least it throws up the odd all-Ireland so it's not as bad as up the road but  the sense of underachievement is very depressing.

The other factor is the lack of patience. If a team loses the whole outfit is often abandoned or else the manager is dropped so you have to start all over again the following year.   Look at how few changes there have been on the Kilkenny team since 2006 and compare to say Galway or Offaly.



A lot of what you say is true Seaf, but 'tradition' is another way of saying 'if you have enough players good enough'; see AI final 1988, very close going into the closing stages, but Galway sprung Tony KK, Gerry Burke (from Turlough) and of course Noel Lane, all of who made an impact. In 2005 we had a misfiring Tierney in midfield and Niall Healy at FF, neither of whom could string 2 good games in a row ever. Similarly, our footballers overcame a lot of 'legacy adversity' in '98; they were so good (and so well prepared) that day that they would have beaten anyone, regardless had it been Kildare, Tyrone, Cork, Dublin, Kerry et al. All the narrow, large and heartbreaking defeats throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s mattered not a jot.

Players themselves will know if they are good enough and will gain confidence from it. Imagine being in a dressing room with Hayes, Linnane, Finnerty, Keady, Malone, McInerney, Coleman, Malone, Cooney, Naughton, Lane, McGrath or Ryan  or similarly with McNamara, Mannion, Fahy, Meehan, De Paor, Walsh, Fallon, Donnellan, Clancy,  Joyce, Savage, Finnegan. Defeat or negativity would scarecely enter the head. I guess the trick is to make the players believe they're good enough.

To repeat, good players will triumph over tradition always.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 16, 2010, 02:27:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2010, 12:24:45 PM
Quote from: Sandino on March 16, 2010, 12:19:15 PM
I think each squad writes its own destiny and most players can get over a defeat, even a painful one. Tyrone suffered many dissapointments over the years before the breakthrough. Letting go a massive lead against Kerry, Dublin by a disputed point, assault by Meath it seemed it would never happen. But their day did come! So with the right leadership any team with committment and skill can turn from being losers into winners.

Personally I think it is the Mayo supporters that need sports psychiatrists more than any teams we have put out. All this talk of losers comes mainly from supporters and most of it is retrospective. Sportsmen should only play what is in front of them not behind them.

I want you all to repeat after me..........

Mayo will win Sam in 2100

Fixed that for ya  :D
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: seafoid on March 16, 2010, 03:03:15 PM
Quote from: mouview on March 16, 2010, 02:27:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 16, 2010, 12:22:08 PM


. In 2005 we had a misfiring Tierney in midfield and Niall Healy at FF, neither of whom could string 2 good games in a row ever.

Match practice was another thing Galway hurlers never got much of. Maybe being in Leinster will change that.

[/quote]
Players themselves will know if they are good enough and will gain confidence from it. Imagine being in a dressing room with Hayes, Linnane, Finnerty, Keady, Malone, McInerney, Coleman, Malone, Cooney, Naughton, Lane, McGrath or Ryan  or similarly with McNamara, Mannion, Fahy, Meehan, De Paor, Walsh, Fallon, Donnellan, Clancy,  Joyce, Savage, Finnegan. Defeat or negativity would scarecely enter the head. I guess the trick is to make the players believe they're good enough. [/quote]

They didn't all fire on the same day. They got plenty of matches. They didn't get dropped after one bad day like many hurlers did. Mannion and Ja would have heard a lot of negative stuff about the footballers pre 95 too. I remember talking to Mannion's sister about it once. She was complaining about all the abuse she would hear at matches. Of course the same people were very proud to be up in the stands when Meath were put to the sword.  ;) 

Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 16, 2010, 11:27:54 PM
Gan dabht are bith, a Iolair, tá an fíor- cheart agat.
"Nearly " nearly brought us places many times but never quite managed to get us there. I would dearly love to think that we should be able to leave the past where it belongs and forget about curses from cranky oul' priests and the multitude of pisreoga that abound. Unfortunately, all available evidence points in the other direction.
Take the '96 final.
Six points to the good and 20 minutes to go, we succumbed to the terror of past failure and I'm referring to the team as well as the supporters.
I was in the Nally Stand and those around me who had been in fine voice up to that point suddenly began to get the jitters. Watches began to appear like snuff at a wedding and many otherwise sound people took to staring at their bloody timepieces as if in a trance. As far as I can remember, I found myself doing the same; we couldn't bear to look at the play on the field any more as we willed the damn hands to circle around faster and faster. I'd imagine Mayo fans everywhere were in the same fix but I couldn't relax enough to look around.
The team, that had been majestic throughout, synced with their followers and began to panic as Meath grimly began to fight back. When the final whistle sounded, the overwhelming emotion was a sense of relief. Only a county with such an ingrained expectation of failure would feel relieved that they were leaving Croker without having lost while Meath fans were delighted to have survived and felt they had been let out of jail. They were looking forward to the replay and felt confident about the outcome while we were just able to get to the toilets. Many around me did not make it that far and I was damn lucky to find a place at the wall in time myself. Well, I'm saying I made it and I'm sticking to my story!
Logic had nothing to do with it- I doubt very much that Meath, Kerry, Galway and a half dozen other counties would have let such a golden opportunity slip.
I was also at the Galway game that has been mentioned above. I had spent a good deal of time in Willy Joe's bar the night before and met up with many past players as the night began to rev up.
To a man, they felt Galway would win the next day.
The team just hadn't the bottle to go at it again after the losses of the two previous years. The training had been put in alright and the ability was still there but the self-doubt had already set in. I found all this hard to believe but when Ciaran's shot came back off the crossbar as the end approached, I felt the confidence both on and off the field collapsing. It was only a matter then of counting down the time.  Same old bloody story.
Maybe if Mac's shot had gone in it would had rammed an assload of banbhs into our particular sow but it was the Galway one who was left with a smile on her face instead.
I have been suspecting for some time that O'Mahony is feeling the same about the survivors of '04 and '06.  You can only expect a man to go to the well so many times and most of the 'vets' can't be expected to go through it all again. I wish it was otherwise but I think the fear of failure increases in intensity with each passing year. Maybe when he has a team that is unencumbered with the trauma of big time failures, he just might give it a good rattle.
Incidentally, I have been in Swinford too many times as the team bus limped homewards yet again and I certainly didn't  hear anyone one on the streets chanting abuse at the players or management either.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Farrandeelin on March 17, 2010, 12:08:54 AM
Anymore, I'm going to be like Fearon, predicting Mayo will win every game under the sun. Actually, more Sligonian if you ask me.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: IolarCoisCuain on March 17, 2010, 12:13:10 AM
I suspect you're a literary man Lar. What you write of 1996, and what I remember from the time, makes me think J Alfred Prufrock had some Mayo blood in him:

I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
And in short, I was afraid.


I read a quote once from a player on that 1996 team, about soloing the ball with twenty minutes to go and looking up to the scoreboard to see Mayo were six points up. And he thought: I don't believe it. A winning mentality thinks: In ten seconds, Mayo will be seven points up.

And that's the difference.

None of this means that it's set in stone of course, or always has to be. But the evidence is quite clear, it seems to me, that has existed in the past. Ignoring it, as Moran and Morrison tried to do, whistling past the graveyard, didn't work. I hope the sequence can be broken, and I'm not fussy about how. A winning goal going in by accident off some fella's arse is just fine with me. I just want it broken. I don't care how.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Hardy on March 17, 2010, 08:51:03 AM
Great thread. Tremendous stuff from Iolar and Lar.

It would seem perverse to let this debate pass without offering my experience as a Meath man, particularly since we have loomed large in the ruminations of the Mayo lads here. Lar is right in his comparison of the attitudes of both sets of fans during and after the 1996 final. We could sense the trepidation of the Mayo fans. But we also had every confidence, even six points down that our team was in it with a decent chance.

We had followed the team of the 86-91 who had pulled many big games out of the fire - Cork 88 x 2, the four games against Dublin in '91, of course and Roscommon '91. Even when we didn't make it over the line (e.g. Down '91), we knew there would be an almighty effort and we wouldn't know the result until the whistle went.

We expected it as standard by '96. But that team was in its infancy and when it grew into itself it brought the winning mentality to a new level. Between '96 and 2001, we got to the stage when we expected to win, or at least save the game, no matter how far behind we were. We KNEW the comeback would happen. Crucially, so did the opposition and you could often see them wilt if we scored two points in a row at eight down or the like. Think of Ollie Murphy breaking Westmeath's hearts on a number of occasions. Outrageous goals conjured out of nothing in injury time. It was powerful medicine and the key point is that the psychology worked in both directions - for us and against the opposition.

Of course, we thought this would last forever. Then came the high point of the destruction of Kerry in 2001, the fatal complacency it induced, however hard we tried to resist it (psychology again) and the utter collapse against Galway. That was possibly the most depressing game of the entire era. The usual script was lost. No comeback - just falling further and further behind. We were looking at each other. This doesn't happen. We don't know how to handle it.

We didn't know then that that was the end of the era. Nobody now fears a Meath comeback. But the folk memory is still there and we saw a glimpse of it in last year's semi final. And the folk memory is strong enough that if/when we assemble a team capable of challenging for honours, it will still be a powerful factor in Croke Park in a big game, even between two sets of players who will only have read about the eighties and nineties.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: seafoid on March 17, 2010, 10:21:53 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 17, 2010, 08:51:03 AM

And the folk memory is strong enough that if/when we assemble a team capable of challenging for honours, it will still be a powerful factor in Croke Park in a big game, even between two sets of players who will only have read about the eighties and nineties.
[/quote]

It's preserved somewhere in the county mortas cine and once the players come along as they always do, eventually, and the county is once again in Croke Park with 5 minutes left in a tight match it comes back. Down have the same thing. Even Kerry don't faze them when they get their mojo right.   
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: stephenite on March 17, 2010, 12:07:55 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 17, 2010, 10:21:53 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 17, 2010, 08:51:03 AM

And the folk memory is strong enough that if/when we assemble a team capable of challenging for honours, it will still be a powerful factor in Croke Park in a big game, even between two sets of players who will only have read about the eighties and nineties.

It's preserved somewhere in the county mortas cine and once the players come along as they always do, eventually, and the county is once again in Croke Park with 5 minutes left in a tight match it comes back. Down have the same thing. Even Kerry don't faze them when they get their mojo right.
[/quote]

How long does it stay there though? Is it too long for Mayo? Maybe we should just accept this and give up, move on to something else.

I don't think the players buy into it too much - I'd be interested to know who the player in '96 was that Iorlar mentioned above. If a Mayo player was soloing the ball and looking at the scoreboard of course he's going to get the heebie-jeebies-how does he have the time to solo the ball and look at the scoreboard anyway? Especially in '96!

There is the obvious issue of players that have been there before in their careers, and mentally that is going to have an affect and rub of on players but I'm not convinced about Meath players today mentally drawing on players strengths or scenarios from 20 years earlier. Or that when Down come back to the big day they'll have it too, that it's in them

Or maybe I'm ignorant about the whole thing.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: deiseach on March 17, 2010, 12:23:50 PM
If players from top counties can see further because they are standing on the shoulders of giants, players from weak counties have to clamber over the bodies of the dead. I remember the feeling when I finally got to see a Waterford team run out at a senior All-Ireland final. Not to put too fine a point on it I had to choke back the tears, and my siblings scattered around Croke Park all confessed afterwards to not having a dry eye between us. If we felt that way, can you imagine how the players on the pitch felt, faced with 50,000 people blubbing like babies over their actions? No wonder they got massacred. It's going to be very hard to overcome that sense of inferiority.

But feck it, we'll have fun trying
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: seafoid on March 17, 2010, 01:00:39 PM
Quote from: deiseach on March 17, 2010, 12:23:50 PM
If we felt that way, can you imagine how the players on the pitch felt, faced with 50,000 people blubbing like babies over their actions? No wonder they got massacred. It's going to be very hard to overcome that sense of inferiority.

Kilkenny hurlers are fine stickmen and very much at home in Croke Park and used to winning but apart from d'accent dey are de same as people from Waterford.  It sounds like Waterford urgently needs to set up a programme of house swaps with Kilkenny so that the young hurlers of the county are exposed to the cats from a young age and thus unfazable when they meet them in big matches in Croke Park. 
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: IolarCoisCuain on March 17, 2010, 01:19:52 PM
Hardy and Deiseach have summed it up. Players don't live in bubbles. They live in and come from cultures. Some have winning cultures, some have losing. Deiseach's grim image of climbing over the bodies of the dead is the same in Mayo. The vague sense of doom hangs heavy in the air. And pretending it isn't there won't make it go away.

Hardy's comments about the Meath-never-bet mentality being underground but not extinct is interesting, especially in the light of the game in August between Mayo and Meath. No-one in Mayo doubted that Mayo would beat Meath that day. Confidence was high. And even watching the Meath players during the warm-up it struck me that they were men who weren't looking forward to events.

And after fifteen minutes, twenty minutes, Mayo hadn't torn into them, and you could see Meath growing in confidence as the game went on, while Mayo started to implode. By the end, Meath were in full sail, popping them over for fun while the Mayomen looked at their boots.

And what I'm wondering is: if the situation had been reversed, if Mayo had been the underdogs in that game and Meath Provincial Champions, would Meath still have found a way to win even though they weren't playing badly? Would Mayo have been able to take their chance the way that Meath were able to take theirs, when it arose?

You can break losing traditions, lose winning traditions, a whole host of things. But you have to be aware that they are there, and that you need to keep the fire glowing the tradition helps you, and stamp it out if it's destroying you.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Farrandeelin on March 17, 2010, 08:56:17 PM
QuoteBut feck it, we'll have fun trying

Yes, it's gotten to the stage where I actually have realised this will my mantra anymore!
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Farrandeelin on March 17, 2010, 10:31:50 PM
What about the Cavan phenomenon?? In days of yore they were feared throughout Ulster. Not anymore. What has gone wrong with the 'Cavan tradition'??
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: IolarCoisCuain on March 17, 2010, 11:03:30 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 17, 2010, 10:31:50 PM
What about the Cavan phenomenon?? In days of yore they were feared throughout Ulster. Not anymore. What has gone wrong with the 'Cavan tradition'??

Do you know Farrrandeelin, I don't think there's a bigger mystery in the GAA than what happened to Cavan. How did they fall so quickly, so far, and why, apart from the flash in the pan of 1997, haven't they come back? The book on what happened Cavan could be one of the greatest GAA books ever written.
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: INDIANA on March 18, 2010, 11:08:23 AM
Quote from: stephenite on March 17, 2010, 12:07:55 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 17, 2010, 10:21:53 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 17, 2010, 08:51:03 AM

And the folk memory is strong enough that if/when we assemble a team capable of challenging for honours, it will still be a powerful factor in Croke Park in a big game, even between two sets of players who will only have read about the eighties and nineties.

It's preserved somewhere in the county mortas cine and once the players come along as they always do, eventually, and the county is once again in Croke Park with 5 minutes left in a tight match it comes back. Down have the same thing. Even Kerry don't faze them when they get their mojo right.

How long does it stay there though? Is it too long for Mayo? Maybe we should just accept this and give up, move on to something else.

I don't think the players buy into it too much - I'd be interested to know who the player in '96 was that Iorlar mentioned above. If a Mayo player was soloing the ball and looking at the scoreboard of course he's going to get the heebie-jeebies-how does he have the time to solo the ball and look at the scoreboard anyway? Especially in '96!

There is the obvious issue of players that have been there before in their careers, and mentally that is going to have an affect and rub of on players but I'm not convinced about Meath players today mentally drawing on players strengths or scenarios from 20 years earlier. Or that when Down come back to the big day they'll have it too, that it's in them

Or maybe I'm ignorant about the whole thing.
[/quote]

Teams can overcome it. But it takes a special crew to do it. if the Dublin team of the 90's can come back from a 4 game defeat to Meath and 2 all-ireland final defeats to do eventually win it anyone can. Takes an incredibly mentally strong team to do it. Mayo are already ahead of 90% of all other counties in terms of ability so in theory it shouldn't be that hard. However I don't think Mortimer and Co will ever win an all-ireland.
I can see Aidan O Shea's vintage winning it. He has a different cut to the players preceeding him. He'll kick doors down rather than waiting for them to open.

We'll see how Dublin get on in the next 2 years. It will actually be a good test of the theory. Does picking inferior players who are mentally stronger a better proposition then going with the best talent alone. We'll see.

Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Lamh Dhearg Alba on March 18, 2010, 12:56:12 PM
Interesting stuff. People are correct to state that you wont win championships without great players but the mental side of things cant be understated. Tyrone without doubt were mentally weak on the big stage for a long long time, the legacy of a losing tradition in Croke Park. At the start of the previous decade we were the only county to have won All-Ireland at minor and under 21 but not senior. The only team to have appeared in the final of the AI and the League and won neither. Had never beaten a Leinster or Munster side in the Championship. 86 a classic example; Tyrone were the better team for a long spell but when things started to go against them, injuries and decisions etc, they didnt ultimately believe they could win and they folded. Kerry on the other hand were a team past their best but had years of success and tradition behind them. They knew they could win and win they did.

Harte worked hard on this and built a team who did believe in themselves and who were able to look at the Tyrone teams of the past as sides who had taken things on to a certain level and now it was their chance to break down the final barrier. He took defeats like Sligo in 2002 and used them as motivation.

One of my favourite stories from what was been a special era for Tyrone is the 2008 final with Kerry having hit 4 unansewered scores to go a point ahead with 15 minutes to go. According to one of the Kerry players after the Tyrone boys were shouting to each other "cmon boys, we have them, theyre beaten". Tyrone got the last 5 scores of the match. Polar opposite of 1986. History shows you can lose a winning tradition as well but we would hope the lasting legacy of the past decade is that Tyrone people are now growing up used to seeing their teams go to Croke Park and win, and future teams will draw on that and take inspiration from it.

Really hope Mayo can find some inspiration themselves and break their losing cycle. That more than any great weaknesses as players where what saw them hammered in the 2004 and 2006 finals. 
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: the verger on March 18, 2010, 12:59:03 PM
but don't all counties go through years of famine Kerry went 11 years, Kilkenny from 1983 to 2000 only won 3 hurling titles and in 2000 Cody was going for 3 in a row of defeats, Tipp the same not a lot in the last 30 years, Galway in hurling 3 wins in near a century. We could go on and on but at the end of the day whether you have tradition or not if a  good bunch of players comes together at the same time and with the right guidance anthing should be  possible. 
Title: Re: Going back to Swinford shouting "losers losers losers"
Post by: Lamh Dhearg Alba on March 18, 2010, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: the verger on March 18, 2010, 12:59:03 PM
but don't all counties go through years of famine Kerry went 11 years, Kilkenny from 1983 to 2000 only won 3 hurling titles and in 2000 Cody was going for 3 in a row of defeats, Tipp the same not a lot in the last 30 years, Galway in hurling 3 wins in near a century. We could go on and on but at the end of the day whether you have tradition or not if a  good bunch of players comes together at the same time and with the right guidance anthing should be  possible.

Id agree that all teams go through lean years but surely thats not really the case with Mayo, they have had teams over the past two decades who should have been good enough to win Sam but fell short. Id argue the same was true with certain Tyrone teams pre 2003. Then again surely the "right guidance" you mention would include making sure the team has the mental strength required to get over the line.