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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: BennyHarp on May 09, 2015, 08:47:35 AM

Title: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on May 09, 2015, 08:47:35 AM
So with the championship kicking off last weekend in NYC and the first big battle just over a week away, I think it would be interesting to document incidents of the dark arts and cynical play that occur throughout the campaign. My aim is to try and prove that this is not just a Tyrone phenomenon but if this is only full of Tyrone antics then I will hold my hands up and admit that it's only us. Please discuss any incidents here.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: sligoman on May 09, 2015, 10:16:58 AM
Play close attention to Roscommon this year, they are Connacht's masters of cynical play and outright thuggery.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: gwan-ye-boy-ya on May 09, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
Watch this.   Craic starts at 1:35
Makes Sean Cavanagh look like a ballet dancer

https://youtu.be/NBL7l76EEtc
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Jinxy on May 09, 2015, 01:53:45 PM
This is a very cynical thread.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on May 09, 2015, 02:39:51 PM
Surely this is a Tyrone only Thread and can be moved to their local board lol
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on May 09, 2015, 03:17:21 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 09, 2015, 02:39:51 PM
Surely this is a Tyrone only Thread and can be moved to their local board lol

No no, everyone is free to contribute and all opinions welcomed, even Derry ones.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: tiempo on May 09, 2015, 03:25:27 PM
Quote from: gwan-ye-boy-ya on May 09, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
Watch this.   Craic starts at 1:35
Makes Sean Cavanagh look like a ballet dancer

https://youtu.be/NBL7l76EEtc

John Donnelan, Michael Donnelans da
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: twohands!!! on May 09, 2015, 06:04:09 PM
A related area

http://balls.ie/gaa/285992-gaa-player-girlfriend-number/

QuoteIt was also mentioned that the teams who employed the tactic have been involved in All-Irelands in the last ten years.

Small enough pool of suspects there ;)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: charlieTully on May 09, 2015, 06:48:28 PM
Quote from: gwan-ye-boy-ya on May 09, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
Watch this.   Craic starts at 1:35
Makes Sean Cavanagh look like a ballet dancer

https://youtu.be/NBL7l76EEtc

thats a great clip.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on May 09, 2015, 06:57:29 PM
Quote from: charlieTully on May 09, 2015, 06:48:28 PM
Quote from: gwan-ye-boy-ya on May 09, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
Watch this.   Craic starts at 1:35
Makes Sean Cavanagh look like a ballet dancer

https://youtu.be/NBL7l76EEtc

thats a great clip.

In fairness the Donnellan's were/are nutters. ;D
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Shrewdness on May 09, 2015, 10:51:09 PM
Sligoman, stop talking shite. Anyone can read your 11 posts and see the common denominator. They're all anti-Roscommon. You're a one trick pony who probably isn't from Sligo at all. gibbs32 seems to have disappeared, then you show up.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Itchy on May 10, 2015, 10:59:14 AM
https://youtu.be/vode0lF9tX4

From back when the game was beautiful I present Kingscourt v Mullahoran.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: tippabu on May 18, 2015, 10:11:36 AM
Do we just add the whole donegal Tyrone game in here? Much in the other games?
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: magpie seanie on May 18, 2015, 09:40:13 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on May 09, 2015, 06:57:29 PM
Quote from: charlieTully on May 09, 2015, 06:48:28 PM
Quote from: gwan-ye-boy-ya on May 09, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
Watch this.   Craic starts at 1:35
Makes Sean Cavanagh look like a ballet dancer

https://youtu.be/NBL7l76EEtc

thats a great clip.

In fairness the Donnellan's were/are nutters. ;D

And to think we were all fooled  :P into thinking Sean Cavanagh invented that type of cynicism. I hope Joe Brolly doesn't see that one and say the same about Donnellan as he said about Cavanagh!
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on May 20, 2015, 05:52:04 AM
Surely not in Connacht???

Glancy slams Galway tactics
19 May 2015

James Glancy has accused Galway of systematically fouling Leitrim in Sunday's Connacht SFC quarter-final.

Kevin Walsh's charges committed 42 fouls during the course of the game - more than Tyrone and Donegal combined! - and former Leitrim attacker Glancy was not impressed by their cynicism:

"Their physio seemed to be in on the pitch numerous times. They were going down very easily and they were wasting time, particularly in the first half," he says in The Irish Daily Star.

"I was thinking about the GPS trackers, if there was one on the Galway physio, they were were probably moving more on the field than the Galway players.

"In the second half, the stats speak for themselves. In the second half alone, they had 31 fouls. A lot of the fouls seemed to be in the middle third of the field.

"The [Leitrim] centre back [Gary Reynolds] seemed to attack but every time he went forward he got fouled. It was at least ten occasions when he was fouled, not pulled to the ground though.

"At no stage did the referee feel there was need for a yellow card. They seemed to be nearly stopping the Leitrim attack before it started."
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: macdanger2 on May 20, 2015, 09:09:23 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on May 20, 2015, 05:52:04 AM
Surely not in Connacht???

Glancy slams Galway tactics
19 May 2015

James Glancy has accused Galway of systematically fouling Leitrim in Sunday's Connacht SFC quarter-final.

Kevin Walsh's charges committed 42 fouls during the course of the game - more than Tyrone and Donegal combined! - and former Leitrim attacker Glancy was not impressed by their cynicism:

"Their physio seemed to be in on the pitch numerous times. They were going down very easily and they were wasting time, particularly in the first half," he says in The Irish Daily Star.

"I was thinking about the GPS trackers, if there was one on the Galway physio, they were were probably moving more on the field than the Galway players.

"In the second half, the stats speak for themselves. In the second half alone, they had 31 fouls. A lot of the fouls seemed to be in the middle third of the field.

"The [Leitrim] centre back [Gary Reynolds] seemed to attack but every time he went forward he got fouled. It was at least ten occasions when he was fouled, not pulled to the ground though.

"At no stage did the referee feel there was need for a yellow card. They seemed to be nearly stopping the Leitrim attack before it started."

Apparently it was all the older players who had learnt that sort of thing from JK
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Club Rossa on May 20, 2015, 12:54:49 PM
Them Derry wans were hitting referees at the weekend.Always trying to steal our thunder you dirty hoors >:(
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Pub Bore on May 20, 2015, 01:31:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 10, 2015, 10:59:14 AM
https://youtu.be/vode0lF9tX4

From back when the game was beautiful I present Kingscourt v Mullahoran.

Watch the Kingscourt No 10 at 2:12.  Not even a soccer player would have gone down like that in 1990!
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: naka on May 20, 2015, 08:03:01 PM
Enjoyable take on sledging by daragh o shea in this weeks Irish times btw.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: rrhf on May 20, 2015, 08:27:40 PM
about time someone with a bit of sense spoke out. 
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: muppet on May 20, 2015, 08:28:01 PM
I'd say Mickey Ned learned to pass after this 'tackle', if he remembered it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9VY7BKKCw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9VY7BKKCw)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on May 20, 2015, 11:30:54 PM
Sledging, nah Darragh just thumped them when a man was getting on top of him and getting the better of him like Pierce O`Neill, never could sort big Galvin of Limerick out though
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Ciarrai_thuaidh on May 20, 2015, 11:59:10 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 20, 2015, 11:30:54 PM
Sledging, nah Darragh just thumped them when a man was getting on top of him and getting the better of him like Pierce O`Neill, never could sort big Galvin of Limerick out though

Pearse O'Neill..getting the better of Darragh?  ;D ;D ;D

Darragh and Galvin had some good battles, best of all were probably the 2 Munster finals in 2004. Both had their moments and both went at it hard with no quarter asked or given.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on June 14, 2015, 10:05:29 PM
Well that Galway v Mayo game was full of it today. Pulling, dragging, time wasting, blatent black cards etc. Some of the most blatent cynicism seen so far this season.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: CD on June 14, 2015, 10:09:46 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 14, 2015, 10:05:29 PM
Well that Galway v Mayo game was full of it today. Pulling, dragging, time wasting, blatent black cards etc. Some of the most blatent cynicism seen so far this season.
Surely not Benny! Everyone knows cynicism of that nature is the preserve of Ulster teams while the rest of Ireland play a romantic version of the game, beautiful in its simplicity and integrity.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on June 14, 2015, 10:11:13 PM
Now Benny stop, none of that stuff was mentioned once, however if Armagh and Donegal was like that it been !!!!!
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: thejuice on June 14, 2015, 10:11:57 PM
It wasn't so bad until the last ten minutes when it just turned wholly negative. That said Galway seemed to play into Mayo's hands at the end by trying to work their way up the field through hand passing and getting dragged down every ten yards or so.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Throw ball on June 14, 2015, 10:13:02 PM
Checked the Galway v Mayo thread and this hardly warrants a mention. And they wonder why Ulster folk complain!
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on June 14, 2015, 10:29:39 PM
I'm just surprised that all the Connacht lads who hate this cynical stuff so much aren't on complaining about it.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: highorlow on June 14, 2015, 10:30:26 PM
It's the cynicism mixed with the blanket mixed with yer constant moaning that makes everyone hate ye  ;)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 15, 2015, 09:51:58 AM
I was having a good row with Kerry lads yesterday. When Tipp started running at them at pace, they really struggled, and so they were absolutely determined to foul at source after a turnover or quick break. I told them if Donegal did it to them they'd be moaning for a week. They didn't like it :)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: rrhf on June 15, 2015, 10:50:10 AM
The emperors clothes and all that...
Fair play.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: screenexile on June 15, 2015, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 15, 2015, 09:51:58 AM
I was having a good row with Kerry lads yesterday. When Tipp started running at them at pace, they really struggled, and so they were absolutely determined to foul at source after a turnover or quick break. I told them if Donegal did it to them they'd be moaning for a week. They didn't like it :)

I read somewhere about Kerry's fouling being the highest in Division one and the foul count against Derry in the league was double Derry's.

They're not the cure hoors for nothing they'll do it regularly throughout the Championship.

Much like Donegal do the 'foul that's not a foul' bit as well where they run straight into the man on the ball without using their arms then hold him up to wait for reinforcements.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: rrhf on June 15, 2015, 12:05:59 PM
Derry need Paddy Bradley back. 
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on July 05, 2015, 08:59:34 PM
Well, as good as the second half was today in Kilarney, it had all the cynicism you could ever wish to see on show. Players rolling around on the floor, sledging, blatant drag downs, exaggerated dives for the penalty, time wasting on kick outs and of course the usual mouthing from "Star". I'm not criticsing the game, just pointing out that it happened. Kerry are the worst in the country for this stuff.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: highorlow on July 05, 2015, 09:01:41 PM
"Star" could be heard over the TV commentary at one stage saying 'red card' to the ref.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: larryin89 on July 05, 2015, 09:14:46 PM
The mouthing that star gets away with to officials is remarkable , it's like he's give s free pass. Is it not under the black card rule in some from or another.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: From the Bunker on July 05, 2015, 09:51:41 PM
Donaghy is a great talent and a top target man. But you just find yourself disliking him cos of the mouthing, complaining, waving hands etc. For the Neutral he is an unlikable character.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Main Street on July 06, 2015, 12:27:03 AM
Immediately the game is over and the microphone is shoved under Donaghy's mouth, you will not hear a moaning  word  from his mouth. Even if he's been battered black and blue in the game, he will complement the opposition for a tough but fair game.

Though that bit must be down to the kerry blood.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 06, 2015, 12:32:24 AM
Hes battered no more than any other player, Ask Connolly, Gooch, Murphy, McManus, Donaghy constantly cries to the ref
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Main Street on July 06, 2015, 12:44:22 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 06, 2015, 12:32:24 AM
Hes battered no more than any other player, Ask Connolly, Gooch, Murphy, McManus, Donaghy constantly cries to the ref
I suppose his moaning on the pitch could be down to his tyrone blood, but I'm just speculating.
As soon as the final whistle blows, he switches over and he sounds like a normal graceful cultured  kerryman.
I have experience of these matters because I also have a Kerry mother, I can empathise with Kieran and his cultural turbulence.

Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Syferus on July 06, 2015, 01:36:01 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on July 05, 2015, 09:51:41 PM
Donaghy is a great talent and a top target man. But you just find yourself disliking him cos of the mouthing, complaining, waving hands etc. For the Neutral he is an unlikable character.

He's not a 'great' talent but he is a great target man. His career is very strange. Post-2011 he was almost a non-factor (either by his performance on the field or simply by not being picked) for almost three full seasons until a five minute cameo against Mayo reignited a career Donaghy admitted himself was going to peter out with his retirement at the end of the season.

That mouth, though. That mouth.

(http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2105062.1424037717!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on July 06, 2015, 06:21:10 AM
Quote from: Main Street on July 06, 2015, 12:27:03 AM
Immediately the game is over and the microphone is shoved under Donaghy's mouth, you will not hear a moaning  word  from his mouth. Even if he's been battered black and blue in the game, he will complement the opposition for a tough but fair game.

Though that bit must be down to the kerry blood.

A small bit of media training helping him here I'd imagine. He was exceptionally gracious on TV after last years AI final alright.

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ReOwtTzUAZQ/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 06, 2015, 08:10:27 AM
A couple of minutes to go Kildare up 2 by turn the ball over just inside Offaly half. Mickey Conway drags player down, howls of derision from Offaly supporters mumbles of "well done Mikey" from Kildare contingent, ref issues black card minute wasted game dies out. Not a word on SG or majority of match reports.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Main Street on July 06, 2015, 09:22:10 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 06, 2015, 06:21:10 AM
Quote from: Main Street on July 06, 2015, 12:27:03 AM
Immediately the game is over and the microphone is shoved under Donaghy's mouth, you will not hear a moaning  word  from his mouth. Even if he's been battered black and blue in the game, he will complement the opposition for a tough but fair game.

Though that bit must be down to the kerry blood.

A small bit of media training helping him here I'd imagine. He was exceptionally gracious on TV after last years AI final alright.
I suppose that is an exception which proves the rule:
The overwhelming smell of another SM medal had an intoxicating effect.
At a rough guess, i'd say the majority  would have shared Donaghy's sentiments, but by the mere act of doing so, he gave Brolly's opinions far too much respect.

Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Hardy on July 06, 2015, 09:24:37 AM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 06, 2015, 08:10:27 AM
A couple of minutes to go Kildare up 2 by turn the ball over just inside Offaly half. Mickey Conway drags player down, howls of derision from Offaly supporters mumbles of "well done Mikey" from Kildare contingent, ref issues black card minute wasted game dies out. Not a word on SG or majority of match reports.

Which is exactly what we predicted the black card would do about the last-minute, score-saving drag-down.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 11:23:45 AM
Quote from: Hardy on July 06, 2015, 09:24:37 AM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 06, 2015, 08:10:27 AM
A couple of minutes to go Kildare up 2 by turn the ball over just inside Offaly half. Mickey Conway drags player down, howls of derision from Offaly supporters mumbles of "well done Mikey" from Kildare contingent, ref issues black card minute wasted game dies out. Not a word on SG or majority of match reports.

Which is exactly what we predicted the black card would do about the last-minute, score-saving drag-down.

Which is not the point.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Hardy on July 06, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
I thought it was expanding on the point. In fact, I should have said that while we anticipated that the black card would do nothing about the main issue its supporting PR hooha purported to address, we didn't anticipate that it would make this particular problem even worse, by providing an additional incentive for the last-minute, score-saving drag-down - the opportunity to run down the clock while the ref foosters with black cards.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Jinxy on July 06, 2015, 12:43:07 PM
I will say this though re the effectiveness or otherwise of the black card.
I think Kerrigan was a big loss to Cork.
They had him running from deep and if he was on the field in the 2nd half when the game opened up, he could have done a lot of damage.
The black card is only really an effective deterrent/punishment during the first 60 minutes of a game.
After that time, the team in the lead are quite happy to pick up one or two if it stops a comeback.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: From the Bunker on July 06, 2015, 12:51:42 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 06, 2015, 12:43:07 PM
I will say this though re the effectiveness or otherwise of the black card.
I think Kerrigan was a big loss to Cork.
They had him running from deep and if he was on the field in the 2nd half when the game opened up, he could have done a lot of damage.
The black card is only really an effective deterrent/punishment during the first 60 minutes of a game.
After that time, the team in the lead are quite happy to pick up one or two if it stops a comeback.

In Fairness David Moran was a loss as well!

The (10 minute) Sin bin is the way to go!
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Jinxy on July 06, 2015, 12:56:42 PM
Kerry were already losing midfield when Moran went though.
The way Kerrigan was deployed was a big part of the Cork game-plan and Kerry had their purple patch after he was black carded.
Also, I cannot understand why Paddy Kelly isn't one of the first names on the Cork teamsheet.
Has to start the next day.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 06, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
I thought it was expanding on the point. In fact, I should have said that while we anticipated that the black card would do nothing about the main issue its supporting PR hooha purported to address, we didn't anticipate that it would make this particular problem even worse, by providing an additional incentive for the last-minute, score-saving drag-down - the opportunity to run down the clock while the ref foosters with black cards.

I think it's a non-sequitur. "See, the black card has done nothing about the score saving foul".

Joe Brolly aside, and his idiotic rant about Sean Cavanagh, I think most people understand the black card is designed to stop cynical fouling, primarily drag downs and body checks, occurring throughout the game. I often point to Declan O'Sullivan dragging down the Cavan full back in the Cavan backline, in order to stop a counter attack. *That* was the insidious cynicism which was in danger of pervading the whole game, not just the headline of a man running through on goal and getting dragged down.

People were using the cynical foul as a deliberate ploy to get set after a turnover, or to impede counter attacks with off the ball blocking of runs etc. I absolutely think the black card has curtailed a lot of that behaviour.

It was never going to stop Sean Cavanagh taking down the Monaghan man that time, and Joe Brolly undermined his whole argument (as usual) by making it all about Cavanagh's foul. Of course the foul was a great example of the type of tacklethe rule (which had already been voted in) was going to address, but in reality that situation isn't going to be stopped by a black card, yellow card or even red card a lot of times. People will take one for the team. But will they drag down a full back for the team? I don't think so.

And if the ref wasted a minute black carding the guy, he should have added a minute.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 06, 2015, 02:40:58 PM
Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Jinxy on July 06, 2015, 03:42:34 PM
Black cards are heavier.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 03:45:34 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on July 06, 2015, 02:40:58 PM
Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

I suppose the whole strolling off makes it slower than a yellow. Same as the red though. Actually quicker, because he doesn;t have to take a card out, just show him the back of the book!
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 06, 2015, 04:17:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 03:45:34 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on July 06, 2015, 02:40:58 PM
Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

I suppose the whole strolling off makes it slower than a yellow. Same as the red though. Actually quicker, because he doesn;t have to take a card out, just show him the back of the book!

The substitution has to take place at the next break in play. A cynical team like Tyrone would milk a good minute to 2 minutes out of it, between protestations at the ref, the odd bit of handbags, the slow-walk off, taking the jersey off putting back on ritual. Can be a real momentum killer, especially with the standard "There will be two minutes of additional time"
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 04:18:39 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 06, 2015, 04:17:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 03:45:34 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on July 06, 2015, 02:40:58 PM
Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

I suppose the whole strolling off makes it slower than a yellow. Same as the red though. Actually quicker, because he doesn;t have to take a card out, just show him the back of the book!

The substitution has to take place at the next break in play. A cynical team like Tyrone would milk a good minute to 2 minutes out of it, between protestations at the ref, the odd bit of handbags, the slow-walk off, taking the jersey off putting back on ritual. Can be a real momentum killer, especially with the standard "There will be two minutes of additional time"

Yeah, but that's really up to the ref. The sub coming on is just like any other sub coming on, so the only delay really is getting the lad off the pitch, just like a red card. If there's a delay, the ref should add it on.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Jinxy on July 06, 2015, 04:22:35 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 06, 2015, 04:17:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 03:45:34 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on July 06, 2015, 02:40:58 PM
Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

I suppose the whole strolling off makes it slower than a yellow. Same as the red though. Actually quicker, because he doesn;t have to take a card out, just show him the back of the book!

The substitution has to take place at the next break in play. A cynical team like Tyrone would milk a good minute to 2 minutes out of it, between protestations at the ref, the odd bit of handbags, the slow-walk off, taking the jersey off putting back on ritual. Can be a real momentum killer, especially with the standard "There will be two minutes of additional time"

Showing the ref where you have his girlfriend's phone number written on your arm etc.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Esmarelda on July 06, 2015, 04:31:59 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 06, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
I thought it was expanding on the point. In fact, I should have said that while we anticipated that the black card would do nothing about the main issue its supporting PR hooha purported to address, we didn't anticipate that it would make this particular problem even worse, by providing an additional incentive for the last-minute, score-saving drag-down - the opportunity to run down the clock while the ref foosters with black cards.

I think it's a non-sequitur. "See, the black card has done nothing about the score saving foul".

Joe Brolly aside, and his idiotic rant about Sean Cavanagh, I think most people understand the black card is designed to stop cynical fouling, primarily drag downs and body checks, occurring throughout the game. I often point to Declan O'Sullivan dragging down the Cavan full back in the Cavan backline, in order to stop a counter attack. *That* was the insidious cynicism which was in danger of pervading the whole game, not just the headline of a man running through on goal and getting dragged down.

People were using the cynical foul as a deliberate ploy to get set after a turnover, or to impede counter attacks with off the ball blocking of runs etc. I absolutely think the black card has curtailed a lot of that behaviour.

It was never going to stop Sean Cavanagh taking down the Monaghan man that time, and Joe Brolly undermined his whole argument (as usual) by making it all about Cavanagh's foul. Of course the foul was a great example of the type of tacklethe rule (which had already been voted in) was going to address, but in reality that situation isn't going to be stopped by a black card, yellow card or even red card a lot of times. People will take one for the team. But will they drag down a full back for the team? I don't think so.

And if the ref wasted a minute black carding the guy, he should have added a minute.
If the sin bin had been brought in as many people suggested then the team, as well as the individual, would have been punished. Players might still do it but at least they'd have to fight on with 14 men or less.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 04:35:56 PM
I've always said I prefer the sin bin, but that was never given a fair chance.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: westbound on July 07, 2015, 09:50:42 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 06, 2015, 04:31:59 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 06, 2015, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 06, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
I thought it was expanding on the point. In fact, I should have said that while we anticipated that the black card would do nothing about the main issue its supporting PR hooha purported to address, we didn't anticipate that it would make this particular problem even worse, by providing an additional incentive for the last-minute, score-saving drag-down - the opportunity to run down the clock while the ref foosters with black cards.

I think it's a non-sequitur. "See, the black card has done nothing about the score saving foul".

Joe Brolly aside, and his idiotic rant about Sean Cavanagh, I think most people understand the black card is designed to stop cynical fouling, primarily drag downs and body checks, occurring throughout the game. I often point to Declan O'Sullivan dragging down the Cavan full back in the Cavan backline, in order to stop a counter attack. *That* was the insidious cynicism which was in danger of pervading the whole game, not just the headline of a man running through on goal and getting dragged down.

People were using the cynical foul as a deliberate ploy to get set after a turnover, or to impede counter attacks with off the ball blocking of runs etc. I absolutely think the black card has curtailed a lot of that behaviour.

It was never going to stop Sean Cavanagh taking down the Monaghan man that time, and Joe Brolly undermined his whole argument (as usual) by making it all about Cavanagh's foul. Of course the foul was a great example of the type of tacklethe rule (which had already been voted in) was going to address, but in reality that situation isn't going to be stopped by a black card, yellow card or even red card a lot of times. People will take one for the team. But will they drag down a full back for the team? I don't think so.

And if the ref wasted a minute black carding the guy, he should have added a minute.
If the sin bin had been brought in as many people suggested then the team, as well as the individual, would have been punished. Players might still do it but at least they'd have to fight on with 14 men or less.

Don't forgot that the original proposal for the black card was that no replacement would be allowed. That was until some influential managers voiced their opinions. If no replacement was allowed then teams would have to fight on with 14 men.
Personally, I'd be in favour of allowing only 1 replacement for a black card (rather than 3 at present). I think 3 replacements for black cards is too many.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Canalman on July 07, 2015, 10:00:08 AM
Tweaking of black card rule all that is needed imo. For example, a black card in the last 10/ 15  minutes could reduce your substitutions in the next game by 2 to a maximum of 4.

Maybe the player who did it in the last 10/15  minutes will be suspended for the next game.

Amazing really the amount of people who should know better (tv pundits , commentators etc) who have not got a clue what a black card offence is.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 07, 2015, 10:09:57 AM
Quote from: Canalman on July 07, 2015, 10:00:08 AM
Tweaking of black card rule all that is needed imo. For example, a black card in the last 10/ 15  minutes could reduce your substitutions in the next game by 2 to a maximum of 4.

Maybe the player who did it in the last 10/15  minutes will be suspended for the next game.

Amazing really the amount of people who should know better (tv pundits , commentators etc) who have not got a clue what a black card offence is.

Maybe no replacement for a black card in the last 10 minutes
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: smort on July 07, 2015, 10:19:42 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 07, 2015, 10:09:57 AM
Quote from: Canalman on July 07, 2015, 10:00:08 AM
Tweaking of black card rule all that is needed imo. For example, a black card in the last 10/ 15  minutes could reduce your substitutions in the next game by 2 to a maximum of 4.

Maybe the player who did it in the last 10/15  minutes will be suspended for the next game.

Amazing really the amount of people who should know better (tv pundits , commentators etc) who have not got a clue what a black card offence is.

Maybe no replacement for a black card in the last 10 minutes

Don't think that would work. Is the last 10 minutes from the 60th minute? what if there was 5 minutes injury time, that team would be down a player for 15 minutes, which would lead to inconsistencies from game to game. I don't like the black card. If referees had of produced yellow cards correctly there would have been no need to introduce it. It does nothing to stop the cynical stopping of play in the last period of a game. In fact, i would guess that we actually see more of these deliberate drag downs at the end of close games than before the introduction of the black card.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Esmarelda on July 07, 2015, 10:23:23 AM
It seems that the simpel 10 minute sin bin is too simple for the GAA. 10 minutes off then you're back on. If it happens in the last 10 minutes then you don't get back on. Simple.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Hardy on July 07, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
The sin bin was tried and it failed. We all know the definition of insanity.

There is no deterrent to  the last-minute, score-saving drag-down. Every player will do it to save the game. So the only option is not deterrence, but penalty - not a personal/team penalty but a playing penalty that provides an opportunity to get the score that was denied by the foul. It's unnecessarily complicated to have different penalties for different times of the game or different parts of the field. So I would penalise a drag-down at any time, anywhere on the pitch except inside the 13 metre line with a 20-metre free in the centre. Any drag-down inside the 13 is a penalty.

I'm wary that any strengthening of penalties for any foul provides an increased incentive for diving and feigning. It's very difficult, though, to feign being dragged down, so I don't think that's an effective counter argument in this case.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 07, 2015, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 07, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
The sin bin was tried and it failed. We all know the definition of insanity.

There is no deterrent to  the last-minute, score-saving drag-down. Every player will do it to save the game. So the only option is not deterrence, but penalty - not a personal/team penalty but a playing penalty that provides an opportunity to get the score that was denied by the foul. It's unnecessarily complicated to have different penalties for different times of the game or different parts of the field. So I would penalise a drag-down at any time, anywhere on the pitch except inside the 13 metre line with a 20-metre free in the centre. Any drag-down inside the 13 is a penalty.

I'm wary that any strengthening of penalties for any foul provides an increased incentive for diving and feigning. It's very difficult, though, to feign being dragged down, so I don't think that's an effective counter argument in this case.

Define 'failed'. Why did it fail? Did it really fail, or was it simply rejected because managers kicked up such a fuss?

As for your other point, I think it has some merit. A lot of these were talked about back at the genesis of the black card. The black card wouldn't be my preference, but it has had an impact on the type of fouling it was designed for. The fact that it hasn't eradicated all cynical play is hardly its fault.

I'm very wary of the diving culture as well, and I'm not sure the drag down is that hard to feign, (see the traditional forwards looping of the arm and falling down dragging the man on top of him) but any rule designed to punish fouling runs the risk of increasing diving. That's why I'd treat diving as every bit as cynical as any foul.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: westbound on July 07, 2015, 02:32:26 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 07, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
The sin bin was tried and it failed. We all know the definition of insanity.

There is no deterrent to  the last-minute, score-saving drag-down. Every player will do it to save the game. So the only option is not deterrence, but penalty - not a personal/team penalty but a playing penalty that provides an opportunity to get the score that was denied by the foul. It's unnecessarily complicated to have different penalties for different times of the game or different parts of the field. So I would penalise a drag-down at any time, anywhere on the pitch except inside the 13 metre line with a 20-metre free in the centre. Any drag-down inside the 13 is a penalty.

I'm wary that any strengthening of penalties for any foul provides an increased incentive for diving and feigning. It's very difficult, though, to feign being dragged down, so I don't think that's an effective counter argument in this case.

If we want to eradicate the cynical drag down, this is definitely the most effective way of doing that.
The counter argument is that the punishment is too severe and will led to a complete lack of tackling out the field and would lead to even more massed defenses. For this reason I'd be against it. It would definitely solve the cynical pull down problem but I reckon it would create a bigger problem.

I think we need to carefully consider the unintended consequences before any rule change is implemented.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: nrico2006 on July 20, 2015, 09:37:43 AM
I know it can't really fall into this category as it is a Kerry player and not a Tyrone one, but Geaney's reaction after the goal the other day was very nice. 
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Jinxy on July 20, 2015, 09:40:53 AM
Quote from: Hardy on July 07, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
The sin bin was tried and it failed. We all know the definition of insanity.

There is no deterrent to  the last-minute, score-saving drag-down. Every player will do it to save the game. So the only option is not deterrence, but penalty - not a personal/team penalty but a playing penalty that provides an opportunity to get the score that was denied by the foul. It's unnecessarily complicated to have different penalties for different times of the game or different parts of the field. So I would penalise a drag-down at any time, anywhere on the pitch except inside the 13 metre line with a 20-metre free in the centre. Any drag-down inside the 13 is a penalty.

I'm wary that any strengthening of penalties for any foul provides an increased incentive for diving and feigning. It's very difficult, though, to feign being dragged down, so I don't think that's an effective counter argument in this case.

Excuse me Hardy, it's actually Einstein's 'Theory of Insanity'.
E = mc3

(http://dynimg.rte.ie/00017dc3189r.jpg)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Hardy on July 20, 2015, 10:08:59 AM
Holy God.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 21, 2015, 09:32:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2015, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 07, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
The sin bin was tried and it failed. We all know the definition of insanity.

There is no deterrent to  the last-minute, score-saving drag-down. Every player will do it to save the game. So the only option is not deterrence, but penalty - not a personal/team penalty but a playing penalty that provides an opportunity to get the score that was denied by the foul. It's unnecessarily complicated to have different penalties for different times of the game or different parts of the field. So I would penalise a drag-down at any time, anywhere on the pitch except inside the 13 metre line with a 20-metre free in the centre. Any drag-down inside the 13 is a penalty.

I'm wary that any strengthening of penalties for any foul provides an increased incentive for diving and feigning. It's very difficult, though, to feign being dragged down, so I don't think that's an effective counter argument in this case.

Define 'failed'. Why did it fail? Did it really fail, or was it simply rejected because managers kicked up such a fuss?

As for your other point, I think it has some merit. A lot of these were talked about back at the genesis of the black card. The black card wouldn't be my preference, but it has had an impact on the type of fouling it was designed for. The fact that it hasn't eradicated all cynical play is hardly its fault.

I'm very wary of the diving culture as well, and I'm not sure the drag down is that hard to feign, (see the traditional forwards looping of the arm and falling down dragging the man on top of him) but any rule designed to punish fouling runs the risk of increasing diving. That's why I'd treat diving as every bit as cynical as any foul.

The sin bin never really got a proper hearing as indeed all the high profile intercounty managers railed against it early on, I don't even think it seen the end of the preseason tournaments IIRC.

I'd introduce a mix of black card and sin bin, get a black card and your replacement can't come on for 10 minutes, but then again the no matter what system is put in place referees have to enforce it and the GAA support them in doing that, neither of which is happening with the current set of rules we have in either code.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Jinxy on July 21, 2015, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 21, 2015, 09:32:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2015, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 07, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
The sin bin was tried and it failed. We all know the definition of insanity.

There is no deterrent to  the last-minute, score-saving drag-down. Every player will do it to save the game. So the only option is not deterrence, but penalty - not a personal/team penalty but a playing penalty that provides an opportunity to get the score that was denied by the foul. It's unnecessarily complicated to have different penalties for different times of the game or different parts of the field. So I would penalise a drag-down at any time, anywhere on the pitch except inside the 13 metre line with a 20-metre free in the centre. Any drag-down inside the 13 is a penalty.

I'm wary that any strengthening of penalties for any foul provides an increased incentive for diving and feigning. It's very difficult, though, to feign being dragged down, so I don't think that's an effective counter argument in this case.

Define 'failed'. Why did it fail? Did it really fail, or was it simply rejected because managers kicked up such a fuss?

As for your other point, I think it has some merit. A lot of these were talked about back at the genesis of the black card. The black card wouldn't be my preference, but it has had an impact on the type of fouling it was designed for. The fact that it hasn't eradicated all cynical play is hardly its fault.

I'm very wary of the diving culture as well, and I'm not sure the drag down is that hard to feign, (see the traditional forwards looping of the arm and falling down dragging the man on top of him) but any rule designed to punish fouling runs the risk of increasing diving. That's why I'd treat diving as every bit as cynical as any foul.

The sin bin never really got a proper hearing as indeed all the high profile intercounty managers railed against it early on, I don't even think it seen the end of the preseason tournaments IIRC.

I'd introduce a mix of black card and sin bin, get a black card and your replacement can't come on for 10 minutes, but then again the no matter what system is put in place referees have to enforce it and the GAA support them in doing that, neither of which is happening with the current set of rules we have in either code.

(http://www.binlinersdirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/i/bin120b.jpg)

"Ten minutes son. In you get."
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: joemamas on July 21, 2015, 01:33:33 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 21, 2015, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 21, 2015, 09:32:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2015, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 07, 2015, 02:23:36 PM
The sin bin was tried and it failed. We all know the definition of insanity.

There is no deterrent to  the last-minute, score-saving drag-down. Every player will do it to save the game. So the only option is not deterrence, but penalty - not a personal/team penalty but a playing penalty that provides an opportunity to get the score that was denied by the foul. It's unnecessarily complicated to have different penalties for different times of the game or different parts of the field. So I would penalise a drag-down at any time, anywhere on the pitch except inside the 13 metre line with a 20-metre free in the centre. Any drag-down inside the 13 is a penalty.

I'm wary that any strengthening of penalties for any foul provides an increased incentive for diving and feigning. It's very difficult, though, to feign being dragged down, so I don't think that's an effective counter argument in this case.

Define 'failed'. Why did it fail? Did it really fail, or was it simply rejected because managers kicked up such a fuss?

As for your other point, I think it has some merit. A lot of these were talked about back at the genesis of the black card. The black card wouldn't be my preference, but it has had an impact on the type of fouling it was designed for. The fact that it hasn't eradicated all cynical play is hardly its fault.

I'm very wary of the diving culture as well, and I'm not sure the drag down is that hard to feign, (see the traditional forwards looping of the arm and falling down dragging the man on top of him) but any rule designed to punish fouling runs the risk of increasing diving. That's why I'd treat diving as every bit as cynical as any foul.

The sin bin never really got a proper hearing as indeed all the high profile intercounty managers railed against it early on, I don't even think it seen the end of the preseason tournaments IIRC.

I'd introduce a mix of black card and sin bin, get a black card and your replacement can't come on for 10 minutes, but then again the no matter what system is put in place referees have to enforce it and the GAA support them in doing that, neither of which is happening with the current set of rules we have in either code.

(http://www.binlinersdirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/i/bin120b.jpg)

"Ten minutes son. In you get."

Could we also have one for commentators.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: trileacman on July 21, 2015, 01:39:46 PM
Lads the refs aren't even dishing out black cards now when they should be. What f**king hope have you got of getting them to sin-bin players?
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 21, 2015, 02:31:07 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 21, 2015, 01:39:46 PM
Lads the refs aren't even dishing out black cards now when they should be. What f**king hope have you got of getting them to sin-bin players?

I also made that point, but thon wheelie bin of Jinxy's deflected that, bloody Meath hallions.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: highorlow on August 05, 2015, 12:39:33 PM
Did anyone else notice the cynical dark arts the Kerry forwards have now mastered in pushing the backs off the ball just before the ball is played into them? They were constantly at it last Sunday. The more they got away with it the more they did it.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: westbound on August 05, 2015, 12:43:33 PM
Quote from: highorlow on August 05, 2015, 12:39:33 PM
Did anyone else notice the cynical dark arts the Kerry forwards have now mastered in pushing the backs off the ball just before the ball is played into them? They were constantly at it last Sunday. The more they got away with it the more they did it.

Any half decent forward in the country has been doing this for years. Nothing new in it.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 05, 2015, 12:45:27 PM
Quote from: westbound on August 05, 2015, 12:43:33 PM
Quote from: highorlow on August 05, 2015, 12:39:33 PM
Did anyone else notice the cynical dark arts the Kerry forwards have now mastered in pushing the backs off the ball just before the ball is played into them? They were constantly at it last Sunday. The more they got away with it the more they did it.

Any half decent forward in the country has been doing this for years. Nothing new in it.

Exactly. It's normally to get the backs hands off you. Sex starved lunatics.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: twohands!!! on August 05, 2015, 04:22:45 PM
Quote from: highorlow on August 05, 2015, 12:39:33 PM
Did anyone else notice the cynical dark arts the Kerry forwards have now mastered in pushing the backs off the ball just before the ball is played into them? They were constantly at it last Sunday. The more they got away with it the more they did it.

Jeez lad - that's well established at least 10-15 years now - Stevie from Killeavy was an absolute master at it and Canavan was fairly handy at it as well - just the little bump/nudge/shove to make space before the ball was put it/while it was in flight to put the defender on the back foot.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: blanketattack on August 05, 2015, 06:16:45 PM
It was invented by Seamus Darby in 1982.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: rrhf on August 05, 2015, 06:19:01 PM
arse boxing has been prevalent from some years now.  Toe say Kerry invented it is just bollicks.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: omaghjoe on August 05, 2015, 06:33:57 PM
I think Mickey Harte was talking about PJ McClean using the arse nudge as a tactic way back in 60s for Ballygawley in the Errigal Ciaran documentary.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Mayo4Sam14 on August 06, 2015, 01:08:31 PM
You can forget about Sean Cavanagh as far as he's a man
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Fuzzman on August 07, 2015, 07:50:36 AM
Can you imagine the crack if Tyrone leading by 2 points on Sat in final minute and Sean is last man again and has to pull down McManus.
Brolly will have a field day. It could happen.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: nrico2006 on August 07, 2015, 09:12:36 AM
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 07, 2015, 07:50:36 AM
Can you imagine the crack if Tyrone leading by 2 points on Sat in final minute and Sean is last man again and has to pull down McManus.
Brolly will have a field day. It could happen.

I would love that.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Hardy on August 07, 2015, 11:53:42 AM
Couldn't happen now. Black card, you see.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: nrico2006 on August 07, 2015, 11:55:31 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 07, 2015, 11:53:42 AM
Couldn't happen now. Black card, you see.

I'm sure he wouldn't mind taking a wee black card.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 07, 2015, 12:05:53 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 07, 2015, 11:53:42 AM
Couldn't happen now. Black card, you see.

You're just being deliberately obtuse :)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Fuzzman on August 07, 2015, 12:18:30 PM
Are you messing?
With 5 minutes left any player would take a black card and haul a man down rather than let them score the winning goal.

Even look at Dublin v Mayo 2 years ago. Last 10 mins was major cynical stuff.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: DuffleKing on August 07, 2015, 12:44:43 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 07, 2015, 11:53:42 AM
Couldn't happen now. Black card, you see.

  :D
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Throw ball on August 07, 2015, 04:23:46 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 07, 2015, 07:50:36 AM
Can you imagine the crack if Tyrone leading by 2 points on Sat in final minute and Sean is last man again and has to pull down McManus.
Brolly will have a field day. It could happen.

Would be even better if Tyrone were 2 points down and Cavanagh was pulled down as he was going through! ;)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: LeoMc on August 08, 2015, 07:07:39 PM
Anything new to add?
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: 50fiftyball on August 10, 2015, 04:30:10 PM
An RTE insider confirmed to us this morning that Des Cahill, Ciaran Whelan and Kevin McStay have put together a video sequence which they say shows Tyrone's assistant manager Gavin Devlin cynically using a remote control in his ear to operate a flock of birds throughout the entire game yesterday. Shane 'Cake' Curran, however, has refused to buy into the idea and blames the Catholic Church and Fianna Fail for Tyrone's surprise progression to the semi final.

The birds, numbering 20, remained on the field until mysteriously flying off over Hill 16 in the direction of Ardboe as soon as the referee blew the full time whistle. Our informer added:

"Yes, they've a pile of footage which shows Devlin talking into his ear piece and then you see the birds patrolling the Tyrone goalmouth, making it seem more congested than it really was. Very cynical by Tyrone when you see it. McStay has a big electronic screen with triangles and all drawn on it to show the Devlin system. It really is very professional."

Our source revealed that Ciaran Whelan 'went clean mad' when McStay showed him his theory and smashed a monitor he was using to show how Tyrone cynically wore a red strip to make Monaghan think they were playing Louth.

"Whelan went berserk. His nostrils were the size of apples. Even Des Cahill was tutting and saying 'them poor birds' and stuff like that."

Sources in Ardboe confirmed that Devlin was a deadly man for the birds in his teens.

The RSPCA are also looking at footage.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: muppet on August 10, 2015, 04:35:39 PM
Quote from: 50fiftyball on August 10, 2015, 04:30:10 PM
An RTE insider confirmed to us this morning that Des Cahill, Ciaran Whelan and Kevin McStay have put together a video sequence which they say shows Tyrone's assistant manager Gavin Devlin cynically using a remote control in his ear to operate a flock of birds throughout the entire game yesterday. Shane 'Cake' Curran, however, has refused to buy into the idea and blames the Catholic Church and Fianna Fail for Tyrone's surprise progression to the semi final.

The birds, numbering 20, remained on the field until mysteriously flying off over Hill 16 in the direction of Ardboe as soon as the referee blew the full time whistle. Our informer added:

"Yes, they've a pile of footage which shows Devlin talking into his ear piece and then you see the birds patrolling the Tyrone goalmouth, making it seem more congested than it really was. Very cynical by Tyrone when you see it. McStay has a big electronic screen with triangles and all drawn on it to show the Devlin system. It really is very professional."

Our source revealed that Ciaran Whelan 'went clean mad' when McStay showed him his theory and smashed a monitor he was using to show how Tyrone cynically wore a red strip to make Monaghan think they were playing Louth.

"Whelan went berserk. His nostrils were the size of apples. Even Des Cahill was tutting and saying 'them poor birds' and stuff like that."

Sources in Ardboe confirmed that Devlin was a deadly man for the birds in his teens.

The RSPCA are also looking at footage.

(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hoganstand.com%2FCommon%2FNewGallery%2FShane-334weCurran.jpg&f=1)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on August 31, 2015, 10:59:10 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on May 09, 2015, 08:47:35 AM
So with the championship kicking off last weekend in NYC and the first big battle just over a week away, I think it would be interesting to document incidents of the dark arts and cynical play that occur throughout the campaign. My aim is to try and prove that this is not just a Tyrone phenomenon but if this is only full of Tyrone antics then I will hold my hands up and admit that it's only us. Please discuss any incidents here.

I rest my case!
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Pub Bore on September 01, 2015, 09:55:41 AM
The worst thing about the Dubs is the way they seem to be able to switch the cynical stuff off and on when they want to ;)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on November 08, 2015, 11:32:59 PM
Tut tut, and I was led to believe all summer that those Roscommon lads were perfectly behaved at all times. Disgraceful behaviour!
http://www.balls.ie/gaa/ultan-harney-barry-moran-castlebar-mitchels/315192
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: larryin89 on November 08, 2015, 11:38:32 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on November 08, 2015, 11:32:59 PM
Tut tut, and I was led to believe all summer that those Roscommon lads were perfectly behaved at all times. Disgraceful behaviour!
http://www.balls.ie/gaa/ultan-harney-barry-moran-castlebar-mitchels/315192

It was a form of protest for said county voting no in the last referendum .
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: muppet on November 09, 2015, 07:56:52 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on November 08, 2015, 11:38:32 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on November 08, 2015, 11:32:59 PM
Tut tut, and I was led to believe all summer that those Roscommon lads were perfectly behaved at all times. Disgraceful behaviour!
http://www.balls.ie/gaa/ultan-harney-barry-moran-castlebar-mitchels/315192

It was a form of protest for said county voting no in the last referendum .

I can think of some players who would have gone to ground straight away.

In fact if it were soccer..............
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: moysider on November 09, 2015, 11:06:38 PM

Couldn t believe it.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Shannoncider on November 12, 2015, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on November 08, 2015, 11:32:59 PM
Tut tut, and I was led to believe all summer that those Roscommon lads were perfectly behaved at all times. Disgraceful behaviour!
http://www.balls.ie/gaa/ultan-harney-barry-moran-castlebar-mitchels/315192

Benny yeah downer I think the kick to the head Barry Moran gave Harney while he was on the ground seconds before was a more disgraceful behaviour.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: deiseach on November 12, 2015, 10:17:49 AM
It's a bit of a stretch to call it the 'dark arts', but it's important to recognise Kieran Donaghy's talk after the All-Ireland final of manly competitiveness and what-happens-on-the-pitch etc for the bullshit that it was. Rat away all you like, but don't pretend that wasn't what you were doing.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: muppet on November 16, 2015, 01:38:58 PM
Quote from: Shannoncider on November 12, 2015, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on November 08, 2015, 11:32:59 PM
Tut tut, and I was led to believe all summer that those Roscommon lads were perfectly behaved at all times. Disgraceful behaviour!
http://www.balls.ie/gaa/ultan-harney-barry-moran-castlebar-mitchels/315192

Benny yeah downer I think the kick to the head Barry Moran gave Harney while he was on the ground seconds before was a more disgraceful behaviour.

It must have been a shocking kick to the head altogether. Did Harney live?
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: BennyHarp on April 19, 2017, 08:40:21 PM
Well well well, so Kerry are officially the country's most cynical team!

25 in four years - Kerry are the market leaders when it comes to league black cards

Colm Keys
April 19 2017 2:30 AM
Kerry are clear market leaders when it comes to picking up black cards, both in the 2017 Allianz League and over the course of the four league campaigns that the controversial penalty for cynical play and actions has now been in place for.

Black cards for Jonathan Lyne and Anthony Maher in the recent league final pushed the Division 1 champions into a clear lead at the head of the table, their nine in eight games one more than Kildare's eight from a similar number of games and two more than Longford who played one less game.

In terms of the overall picture, Kerry players have now accumulated 25 black cards in the 31 league games they have played between 2014 and 2017.

It's an interesting backdrop against the recent debate on cynicism, provoked by Kerry manager Eamonn Fitzmaurice's appeal for balance when referencing criticism of his team's approach to the game prior to the league final with Dublin.

Fitzmaurice highlighted three particular incidents or passages of play involving Dublin that he suggested shone a light their "hard edge", a push back against a "narrative" that he felt was focusing more on Kerry's approach than that of their great rivals.


Fitzmaurice made the comments over concern that the build-up to the final, framed by Philly McMahon's comments on the back of Paul Curran's overview of the Kingdom the previous week, was beginning to develop into a similar situation to what he felt was an orchestrated campaign against Mayo's Lee Keegan the previous year.

But the accumulation of so many cards which are designed to root out cynical play, not just this year but over the four-year period analysed, potentially adds further ballast to criticism of Kerry's approach.

Naturally, Kerry will feel that not all the cards dished out to their players were merited and whether they can be taken as the most precise measurement of cynicism is, of course, open to question.

But their total of 25 over the four-year period is 16 more than Dublin who have played four more league games (two semi-finals and two finals).

Dublin picked up no black card in 2014, added just two a year later but got up to five last year.

They went more than seven-and-a-half games without picking up one until Diarmuid Connolly entered the fray against Monaghan for the first of his back-to-back 'blacks', culminating in first-half dismissal against Kerry for blocking Gavin Crowley's off-the-ball run.

Their only dismissal up to that point was CiarĂ¡n Kilkenny who picked up a double-yellow in that fractious but hugely enjoyable league match in Tralee on St Patrick's weekend.

No other regular Division 1 team comes close to Kerry for cumulative black cards. Mayo and Donegal are both on 16 over the four-year period while, in terms of 2017, Tyrone's six is next highest.

Overall, there was a marked drop in the number of black cards distributed, down 10 per cent from 137 in 2016 to 120.

But that's still one-third more than the 91 (including semi-finals and finals) in the first league campaign after its introduction and still well ahead of the 105 a year later.

The standardised and uniformed structure of the league makes it the most comparable environment in which to assess the statistics involved with the penalty that was brought into force in 2014.

For the first time since 2014 the greatest number of black-card offences by division is not in the top flight with 31 (down from 38 in 2016), two fewer than the 33 in Division 3.

Some 15 players are just one more black card or double yellow away from picking up a one-match ban.

Among them is Kerry's impressive new midfield recruit Jack Barry who saw black against Donegal and Monaghan and Tyrone's Niall Sludden who walked against Mayo and Kerry but, given the nature of the offence he committed against Tyrone, it's quite likely that he would successfully challenge that, should he pick up a third sanction.

Kildare's Kevin Feely and Meath's Eamonn Wallace will have to tread carefully in the Leinster Championship as they too have picked up two black cards each.


The number of straight red cards has taken a significant jump back up. Having dropped from 17 in 2015 to just nine last year it is back out to 25. The number of red cards for double yellows was 32 by our count.

The five offences singled out for sanction at Congress 2013 to combat cynical play were the pull-down, the collide or body collide and the trip in addition to aggressive remonstration with a referee and gestures or language of a provocative nature to an opponent.

The pull-down remains the common offence, accounting for about 45 per cent of all black-card offences with 25 per cent for off-the-ball collisions.

Irish Independent
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: macdanger2 on April 19, 2017, 10:05:33 PM
Why would you look at black cards offences for league only?? Do kerry not come out on top if you include championship?
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: omagh_gael on April 19, 2017, 10:12:35 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on April 19, 2017, 10:05:33 PM
Why would you look at black cards offences for league only?? Do kerry not come out on top if you include championship?

In the interests of a level playing field the league is an ideal mechanism to use as all teams would have played the same number of games. Once you factor in the championship you skew the figures.

Tyrone is a shining light when compared to the cynicism rife within the country. We should hold seminars in Garvaghey sharing our wholesome brand of football ;)
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: macdanger2 on April 19, 2017, 10:23:57 PM
You could just calculate it as a rate - X black cards/game since 2014
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: From the Bunker on April 19, 2017, 10:28:23 PM
Lies, damn Lies and Statistics!

Black cards dished out prove nothing. Nothing other than you have players that are susceptible to getting black cards. Every team worth their salt are cynical. The Great Kerry team of the 70/80's were cynical.

To measure League games make the statistics more laughable.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Never beat the deeler on April 19, 2017, 11:59:33 PM
What does the bit in bold mean - have Tyrone picked up 7 in 2017? Or seven in 4 years

QuoteNo other regular Division 1 team comes close to Kerry for cumulative black cards. Mayo and Donegal are both on 16 over the four-year period while, in terms of 2017, Tyrone's six is next highest.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: Rossfan on April 20, 2017, 12:31:24 AM
Good to see stats backing up what old Gaels knew since the 1920s.
Title: Re: The official dark arts/cynical play thread
Post by: macdanger2 on April 20, 2017, 08:07:45 AM
Quote from: Never beat the deeler on April 19, 2017, 11:59:33 PM
What does the bit in bold mean - have Tyrone picked up 7 in 2017? Or seven in 4 years

QuoteNo other regular Division 1 team comes close to Kerry for cumulative black cards. Mayo and Donegal are both on 16 over the four-year period while, in terms of 2017, Tyrone's six is next highest.

I'd guess it's referring to the fact that Tyrone are just back in D1 this year although I'm not sure why that's relevant