Armagh v Donegal (Sun 12th June, Clones, 4pm)

[Armagh18]

Still have no idea why patton is getting the blame. I have no love for him but the 2 passes were spot on, the defender fumbled the ball which allowed armagh players time to get the tackle in.

Patton didn't do anything wrong.

That's what I thought.  The kick outs were fine.  They went to their target.

Maybe it was the penalty but many's a keeper would have pulled the forward down or attempted to drag him down.  The forward was falling anyway.

Maybe he was given out about Patton going short twice in a row or something?

as far as i remember we'd won the last couple of breaks at that point when he went long so he had to make a change. .

[marty34]

Still have no idea why patton is getting the blame. I have no love for him but the 2 passes were spot on, the defender fumbled the ball which allowed armagh players time to get the tackle in.

Patton didn't do anything wrong.

That's what I thought.  The kick outs were fine.  They went to their target.

Maybe it was the penalty but many's a keeper would have pulled the forward down or attempted to drag him down.  The forward was falling anyway.

Maybe he was given out about Patton going short twice in a row or something?

as far as i remember we'd won the last couple of breaks at that point when he went long so he had to make a change. .

But going short is a far bigger risk than going long...as was seen from what happened.

[J70]

Still have no idea why patton is getting the blame. I have no love for him but the 2 passes were spot on, the defender fumbled the ball which allowed armagh players time to get the tackle in.

Patton didn't do anything wrong.

I disagree. Given the letoff with the Campbell miss, that one that led to the penalty/black card should have been hammered down the field.

And its not like he didn't have previous evidence to go on.

The two late points that leveled the Ulster Final came from the exact same thing, with Stephen McMenamin arguably fortunate to get off with only a yellow for the pull on McGuigan. Similar f**king around at the end of the league game against Mayo earlier this year.

I accept that its not his blame alone, but he is the one who decides where the kicks are going. For the other of the three short kickouts in that sequence on Sunday that ended with the penalty and black card, Brendan McCole barely escaped the Armagh forwards pressing in on top of him. Patton should have known that it was the wrong option.

Hopefully he learns from it and becomes a top class keeper. Paul Durcan before him made plenty of mistakes early in his Donegal career, but ended up arguably our best ever keeper.

[tyrone08]

Still have no idea why patton is getting the blame. I have no love for him but the 2 passes were spot on, the defender fumbled the ball which allowed armagh players time to get the tackle in.

Patton didn't do anything wrong.

I disagree. Given the letoff with the Campbell miss, that one that led to the penalty/black card should have been hammered down the field.

And its not like he didn't have previous evidence to go on.

The two late points that leveled the Ulster Final came from the exact same thing, with Stephen McMenamin arguably fortunate to get off with only a yellow for the pull on McGuigan. Similar f**king around at the end of the league game against Mayo earlier this year.

I accept that its not his blame alone, but he is the one who decides where the kicks are going. For the other of the three short kickouts in that sequence on Sunday that ended with the penalty and black card, Brendan McCole barely escaped the Armagh forwards pressing in on top of him. Patton should have known that it was the wrong option.

Hopefully he learns from it and becomes a top class keeper. Paul Durcan before him made plenty of mistakes early in his Donegal career, but ended up arguably our best ever keeper.

If in both cases the defender holds onto the ball there is no issue at all. Its only an issue due to mishandling by the defender. He if holds on then Donegal can build an attack, if patton goes long and Armagh win it then the long ball is coming straight back towards his own goal. No win situation really for him and again I am no fan of his.

[J70]

Still have no idea why patton is getting the blame. I have no love for him but the 2 passes were spot on, the defender fumbled the ball which allowed armagh players time to get the tackle in.

Patton didn't do anything wrong.

I disagree. Given the letoff with the Campbell miss, that one that led to the penalty/black card should have been hammered down the field.

And its not like he didn't have previous evidence to go on.

The two late points that leveled the Ulster Final came from the exact same thing, with Stephen McMenamin arguably fortunate to get off with only a yellow for the pull on McGuigan. Similar f**king around at the end of the league game against Mayo earlier this year.

I accept that its not his blame alone, but he is the one who decides where the kicks are going. For the other of the three short kickouts in that sequence on Sunday that ended with the penalty and black card, Brendan McCole barely escaped the Armagh forwards pressing in on top of him. Patton should have known that it was the wrong option.

Hopefully he learns from it and becomes a top class keeper. Paul Durcan before him made plenty of mistakes early in his Donegal career, but ended up arguably our best ever keeper.

If in both cases the defender holds onto the ball there is no issue at all. Its only an issue due to mishandling by the defender. He if holds on then Donegal can build an attack, if patton goes long and Armagh win it then the long ball is coming straight back towards his own goal. No win situation really for him and again I am no fan of his.

We'll agree to disagree. Sometimes you just have to choose the better of two bad options. At best, even if they'd held onto the ball, which they fumbled due to the pressure from Armagh, they'd have had a difficult lay off, or might even have coughed it up any through over carrying. I doubt if either player even wanted the ball. There's a reason McBrearty went through him on the bench.

[JoeSoap]

Donegal fans must be raging, a gutless performance. They always fail in the big tests. Armagh this year, Tyrone last year and then Cavan the year before. I'm afraid it is the Donegal of old. No heart for the battle.

I wouldn't count Tyrone last year to be honest. They battled really well considering Murphy missed the pen and was then sent off. Everyone says you take Murphy out of it and the team are nowhere, but considering the heat and everything they were excellent in that game until Tyrone pulled away in the final 10/15.

But to be honest we've never had a problem getting up for the battle against Tyrone. It's everything else we fail at. Sure even in 2020 we had a mighty battle with Tyrone in a storm in Ballybofey which we came out on top in, and then we go ahead and lose to Cavan. And in terms of finals, forget about it. I can't remember the last really tight game we won as a final. The two we've won under Bonner were blowouts.

Was it 2018 Tyrone went up and pulled them apart in Super 8 game. I'm telling you it's the Donegal of old without the drink. They should just go out and get smashed at least they could blame that rather than their heartless attitude. McBreaty's entitlement at being taken off speaks volumes. Bonner has taken them backwards.

2018 Tyrone blew us away yeah, we were well on top (I think we were 5 points up going in to the 60th minute or something) and Tyrone had a black card as well, yet scored something crazy like 2-8 in the last 15 minutes to win it. We chalked that down to the first year under new management and a lot of young lads in the squad at the time. I remember we lost Odhrán MacNiallis to injury that day and he was playing great.

I actually think Bonner was a bit unlucky in those first 2 years. 2018 we lost Paddy McBrearty to a cruciate and he was in absolutely sensational form that year, probably the best he has ever played for us. The Super 8s was a terrible system where winning Ulster got us zero benefit either year in the All-Ireland series. Any other year we'd have been sitting waiting for a qualifier in the quarter finals, but with that system we're in a group with Dublin & Tyrone and then Kerry & Mayo. At the end of the day we still failed, but I always felt the people who throw "no semi final" at Bonner miss that bit - I think any other manager who won Ulster with Donegal would be pretty likely to get to the semi final in the normal system.

But that's excuses as some would say. Since 2019 it hasn't been good. I think the 2020 Ulster final defeat must have left a significant mark on the squad. It was a huge opportunity to reach an All-Ireland semi-final and test ourselves against the Dubs in Croke Park. But we didn't have it in us against Cavan. Beginning of the end in my view.

One thing I'll say about the Armagh match is that I have been critical of the likes of McBrearty, McHugh and even Murphy in these key matches where we've lost. They've all been well shackled at different points and not shown up. But they brought the fight on Sunday, it was the supporting cast that really really let us down.

[JoeSoap]

On Patton, I would say it's a shared blame between him and the outfield players. We had gotten out of jail and maybe he shouldn't hit it short, but one of the key things that you want in a keeper is to stay calm even in those situations. So don't just lump it long because you want rid, you look at your options and pick the best one. However when you look back at it, it was definitely the wrong option. McCole is coming toward goal and I think it's EBG who is moving wide on that side. Ward and OMFF are both moving away from goal. So really it's just McCole in the central area with 3 Armagh forwards converging on him. McCole should hold onto it but even if he does, he'll get swallowed up and at the very least give up a free for overcarrying if he's not turned over.

But at the end of the day, both OMFF and McCole should have held onto the ball. They both spilled it. And if there are options out the field you know Patton is capable and would want to take them. So I'd say it's a team failure, but without a doubt Patton takes on most of the blame. Armagh were definitely in the ascendency at the point though, They'd gotten the previous 5 points I think it was.

The one in the Ulster final I thought was another bad decision. But I think people criticising him so harshly forget how he's saved us so much this year as well. He made an unbelievable save against Cavan and to be honest if that goes in I don't know if we come back. He also made some big saves against Armagh the first day out and another against Derry.

[marty34]

Mc Geeney must be in the Armagh job now for 5 or 6 years?

What this shows, in a way, is that the benefit of allowing a manager time in the job to develop and mould a team. 

Mightn't have been plain sailing all the time - he has had his ups and downs but he's had time to build (has his critics also)a panel of good players.

Fair to say now that Armagh are a Div. 1 team, top 8 team at least and are capable of building on this year and pushing on. No doubt about that.

Maybe there's a lesson in this for other county boards instead of the one of two year fix, then move them on and start again.

[Armagh18]

Mc Geeney must be in the Armagh job now for 5 or 6 years?

What this shows, in a way, is that the benefit of allowing a manager time in the job to develop and mould a team. 

Mightn't have been plain sailing all the time - he has had his ups and downs but he's had time to build (has his critics also)a panel of good players.

Fair to say now that Armagh are a Div. 1 team, top 8 team at least and are capable of building on this year and pushing on. No doubt about that.

Maybe there's a lesson in this for other county boards instead of the one of two year fix, then move them on and start again.

As far as I remember he was Grimleys number 2 in 2014 when Donegal beat us by a point in the Quarter Final and has been in charge since 2015. Been plenty of low points and plenty within the county were looking him gone and various stages, including myself at times I will admit.

Fair play though he is reaping the rewards now, he has 100% commitment and buy in from all the lads too.

[bigarsedkeeper]

On Patton, I would say it's a shared blame between him and the outfield players. We had gotten out of jail and maybe he shouldn't hit it short, but one of the key things that you want in a keeper is to stay calm even in those situations. So don't just lump it long because you want rid, you look at your options and pick the best one. However when you look back at it, it was definitely the wrong option. McCole is coming toward goal and I think it's EBG who is moving wide on that side. Ward and OMFF are both moving away from goal. So really it's just McCole in the central area with 3 Armagh forwards converging on him. McCole should hold onto it but even if he does, he'll get swallowed up and at the very least give up a free for overcarrying if he's not turned over.

But at the end of the day, both OMFF and McCole should have held onto the ball. They both spilled it. And if there are options out the field you know Patton is capable and would want to take them. So I'd say it's a team failure, but without a doubt Patton takes on most of the blame. Armagh were definitely in the ascendency at the point though, They'd gotten the previous 5 points I think it was.

The one in the Ulster final I thought was another bad decision. But I think people criticising him so harshly forget how he's saved us so much this year as well. He made an unbelievable save against Cavan and to be honest if that goes in I don't know if we come back. He also made some big saves against Armagh the first day out and another against Derry.

It's a kick you see a lot but I've always thought it's more high risk than people think. The receiving player can't see the danger behind him and if you do lose it the ball is heading towards the goals. If you do get swallowed up you can't go back to the keeper either any more.

[Armamike]

Kevin McStay on OTB was saying he coaches defenders in that position to not hold on to the ball if running back towards your own goal.  Just lay it off straightaway  to the keeper.  You're unsighted and if you try to turn round, bang, you're hit and the ball's dropped.

[brokencrossbar1]

Kevin McStay on OTB was saying he coaches defenders in that position to not hold on to the ball if running back towards your own goal.  Just lay it off straightaway  to the keeper.  You're unsighted and if you try to turn round, bang, you're hit and the ball's dropped.

Can't give it back to the keeper from a kickout. It can't be underestimated how much pressure the Armagh forwards were putting the defenders under. I know we always worked hard on tackling the defenders coming out as generally there was at least 1 was 'weak' on the ball and either fumbled or over carried. Always chances of a goal....

[Ethan Tremblay]

I suppose for any player taking a short kickout, they should be running onto the ball at speed to avoid the chance of getting caught in the tackle if they win it clean.  The biggest issue with Pattons kickout was it was central, the fumble allowed for more options for the Armagh players when attacking the goal.  Had the ball been fumbled out on the sideline the Armagh players would have had a tougher time working a goal. 

[Armagh2022]

Kevin McStay on OTB was saying he coaches defenders in that position to not hold on to the ball if running back towards your own goal.  Just lay it off straightaway  to the keeper.  You're unsighted and if you try to turn round, bang, you're hit and the ball's dropped.

Very strange I heard him say but nearly sure your not allowed to pass it back to the keeper anymore but he defo should have anyway prob would have been a free but....

[trueblue1234]

b][/b]=topic=30847.msg2131555#msg2131555 date=1655302824]
I suppose for any player taking a short kickout, they should be running onto the ball at speed to avoid the chance of getting caught in the tackle if they win it clean.  The biggest issue with Pattons kickout was it was central, the fumble allowed for more options for the Armagh players when attacking the goal.  Had the ball been fumbled out on the sideline the Armagh players would have had a tougher time working a goal.

The big issue when they are coming at speed is if the kick is slightly off, it comes at you very quick and it's harder to adjust your run. Plus that bit harder to put the ball into the path of the run for the keeper. With more teams pushing up it's going to get riskier.