Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[trueblue1234]

I
The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium .

Did/do they though?

I could be wrong but this was my reading of the situation.

Was the GAA funding not similar to soccer but IFA decided to split monies between renovating Windsor and grassroots. Gaa decided( wrongly IMO) to put all its eggs in one basket, and given guaranteed 30k plus for ulster finals ( note 60k in Croke Park ulster final a few years ago), they thought 38k would be reasonable , and stormont were keen to have one of the 3 stadia able to host big concerts or rugby World Cup international in the North. Regeneration stimulus for West Belfast Also  featured in the decision . Quite rightly , residents had concerns which must be addressed. However it would be hard to  imagine the GAa agreeing to build a stadium with a capacity much less than the expected crowd for their showpiece Ulster final . There is also a concern that there are political elements up here who are delighted to see the GAA under pressure, which has complicated the picture

I think some people are looking at this the wrong way. It's not a case of the GAA get to decide their perfect capacity, pick the perfect site they want to go with, get all the money they need funded by the government and then in Trailer's words "Just get it built". I mean it's just nonsense!! Your striping away all outside influences to try and simplify a process that is anything but. It's not just a case of what the GAA want. There's much more to consider than that. And this is coming from someone who would have loved to see Casement taking on a few Ulster finals.

[Baile Brigín 2]

I
The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium .

Did/do they though?

I could be wrong but this was my reading of the situation.

Was the GAA funding not similar to soccer but IFA decided to split monies between renovating Windsor and grassroots. Gaa decided( wrongly IMO) to put all its eggs in one basket, and given guaranteed 30k plus for ulster finals ( note 60k in Croke Park ulster final a few years ago), they thought 38k would be reasonable , and stormont were keen to have one of the 3 stadia able to host big concerts or rugby World Cup international in the North. Regeneration stimulus for West Belfast Also  featured in the decision . Quite rightly , residents had concerns which must be addressed. However it would be hard to  imagine the GAa agreeing to build a stadium with a capacity much less than the expected crowd for their showpiece Ulster final . There is also a concern that there are political elements up here who are delighted to see the GAA under pressure, which has complicated the picture

I get the argument that it was a choice between replacing Clones or a moderate sized stadium for Antrim. But the GAA decided that they had to wave their cocks too. Rugby and soccer 18k each? We will go 40. Doesn't fit? Plough on regardless, fcuk the locals.

[Main Street]

I'm no expert on this and a lot of you are a lot smarter than me (well i'm prob bottom of the class here) but some of the opinion's people are giving on what the GAA should and should not do is bewildering. The big shortfall has come because of the delays and redesigns with extra fee's, delays in all contracts are huge fee's...some will argue the delays are the GAA's fault for not having the design done properly etc etc. The GAA will blame the Government for turning them down blah blah, either way there are delays and delays cost big money so the sooner something happens the better whatever the decision and who comes up with the extra cash is anyone's guess but one thing that can't happen is another proposal declined and back to the design team and the costs just escalate further.

The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium and are the biggest organisation, this debate is about a stadium so i'm not going to get into things like GAA belongs to one community only.

The GAA's agreed funding of £61m was no bigger than the IFA's £61m.

[trailer]

I
The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium .

Did/do they though?

I could be wrong but this was my reading of the situation.

Was the GAA funding not similar to soccer but IFA decided to split monies between renovating Windsor and grassroots. Gaa decided( wrongly IMO) to put all its eggs in one basket, and given guaranteed 30k plus for ulster finals ( note 60k in Croke Park ulster final a few years ago), they thought 38k would be reasonable , and stormont were keen to have one of the 3 stadia able to host big concerts or rugby World Cup international in the North. Regeneration stimulus for West Belfast Also  featured in the decision . Quite rightly , residents had concerns which must be addressed. However it would be hard to  imagine the GAa agreeing to build a stadium with a capacity much less than the expected crowd for their showpiece Ulster final . There is also a concern that there are political elements up here who are delighted to see the GAA under pressure, which has complicated the picture

I get the argument that it was a choice between replacing Clones or a moderate sized stadium for Antrim. But the GAA decided that they had to wave their cocks too. Rugby and soccer 18k each? We will go 40. Doesn't fit? Plough on regardless, fcuk the locals.

You see it wasn't a choice between Clones and Casement. That's just a complete lie.

Can someone explain to me where you could watch an USFC final in lovely modern stadium that is fitting for me to take my family to, so we can watch in comfort?

[RadioGAAGAA]

Can someone explain to me where you could watch an USFC final in lovely modern stadium that is fitting for me to take my family to, so we can watch in comfort?

Is there a body of evidence available somewhere that indicates USFC finals are poorly attended because the stadium is not lovely enough, modern enough or comfortable enough?

[sekibanki]

I
The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium .

Did/do they though?

I could be wrong but this was my reading of the situation.

Was the GAA funding not similar to soccer but IFA decided to split monies between renovating Windsor and grassroots. Gaa decided( wrongly IMO) to put all its eggs in one basket, and given guaranteed 30k plus for ulster finals ( note 60k in Croke Park ulster final a few years ago), they thought 38k would be reasonable , and stormont were keen to have one of the 3 stadia able to host big concerts or rugby World Cup international in the North. Regeneration stimulus for West Belfast Also  featured in the decision . Quite rightly , residents had concerns which must be addressed. However it would be hard to  imagine the GAa agreeing to build a stadium with a capacity much less than the expected crowd for their showpiece Ulster final . There is also a concern that there are political elements up here who are delighted to see the GAA under pressure, which has complicated the picture

I get the argument that it was a choice between replacing Clones or a moderate sized stadium for Antrim. But the GAA decided that they had to wave their cocks too. Rugby and soccer 18k each? We will go 40. Doesn't fit? Plough on regardless, fcuk the locals.

The fact that Ulster Rugby and the Northern Ireland "national" soccer team play their games in stadia with a lower capacity than the Athletic Grounds tells its own story about sport in the wee six.

In any case, there's a huge amount of support in the local area for it. But as ever, it the most negative voices are heard the loudest.

[illdecide]

I'm no expert on this and a lot of you are a lot smarter than me (well i'm prob bottom of the class here) but some of the opinion's people are giving on what the GAA should and should not do is bewildering. The big shortfall has come because of the delays and redesigns with extra fee's, delays in all contracts are huge fee's...some will argue the delays are the GAA's fault for not having the design done properly etc etc. The GAA will blame the Government for turning them down blah blah, either way there are delays and delays cost big money so the sooner something happens the better whatever the decision and who comes up with the extra cash is anyone's guess but one thing that can't happen is another proposal declined and back to the design team and the costs just escalate further.

The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium and are the biggest organisation, this debate is about a stadium so i'm not going to get into things like GAA belongs to one community only.

The GAA's agreed funding of £61m was no bigger than the IFA's £61m.

Well then...there's a shock for me. Wasn't aware of that, good spot MS. Keep up the good work

[Evil Genius]

The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium and are the biggest organisation, this debate is about a stadium so i'm not going to get into things like GAA belongs to one community only.

The GAA's agreed funding of £61m was no bigger than the IFA's £61m.

I think you're conflating two separate, though related, funding schemes MS.

The first was the Provincial Stadium funding for the three codes, effectively using the money which was intended for the shared stadium at the Maze. Under this, the GAA was allocated £62m, the IFA was allocated approx £28m for Windsor (plus a £5m contribution of their own) and Ulster Rugby got £15m (or thereabouts). This deal was effectively the work of lobbying within Stormont by Nelson McCausland and Barry McElduff, though Caral Ni Chuilin was Sports Minister (I think) by the time it was finalised.

The second scheme was a Regional Stadium Programme for football to improve stadium facilities at Irish League and Intermediate level (artificial pitches, changing facilities, disabled access etc), which was to follow after the above Provincial Stadium plan. I can't find an exact figure for this programme, but I think it was something north of £30m. The bulk of this money was to go to redeveloping The Oval/Glentoran and The Brandywell/Derry City at around £10m each, with the remainder open to applications by a range of other clubs.
Afaik, many football clubs were unhappy with the split, esp the way two clubs were favoured over the rest. I cannot comment on why it was done this way, but I would point out that The Oval is in the East Belfast constituency of the then First Minister Peter Robinson, with The Brandywell in that of the then Deputy First Minister, the late Martin McGuinness. Make of that what you will. 

But while this had been agreed in 2015, none of it has yet been implemented due to the collapse of Stormont. With the present financial stringencies at Stormont, I personally am not confident that this money will still now be available, at least in full, but that's only my guess. In any case, it will be the responsibility of Deirdre Hargey, as the Executive Minister at the Department of Communities.

[Evil Genius]

The fact that Ulster Rugby and the Northern Ireland "national" soccer team play their games in stadia with a lower capacity than the Athletic Grounds tells its own story about sport in the wee six.

Can't speak for rugby, but as regards football, it tells a story of the small-minded and unambitious people than in charge at the IFA.
When the scheme was first proposed, the NI team was at an historically low ebb, with crowds falling after a dreadful run of results. In addition Linfield, who still own the Freehold to the site, wanted a smaller rather than larger stadium, to suit their own needs. The IFA also undertook a marketing process/decision which urged a low capacity, high ticket price capacity.

Had the decision makers taken a more circumspect, long-term view, they'd have anticipated that the NI team was likely only at the bottom of the usual results cycle, as proved to be the case. So that with the appointment of Michael O'Neill, results improved and the crowds came back, as proven eg by the fact that we took over 20k fans to France for the 2016 Euro Finals!
Another thing the IFA underestimated was the 'new stadium effect', whereby people who would not attend when Windsor was a bit of a dump, esp women, children and families, were encouraged to attend when they could enjoy modern facilities and comfort etc.
Finally, the IFA's "Football For All" programme has been very successful in transforming the whole atmosphere at NI games from the bad old days when sectarianism blighted the game, meaning that people who were formerly "turned off" were encouraged to give it another try.

As a long time supporter who remembers huge crowds in the past (eg 40k vs Israel in 1980), imo the new stadium should have accommodated 25k as a minimum, though I personally would have gone for as many as 35k, were that possible, since I have no doubt that with reasonable results, good facilities and proper ticketing and promotion, we could fill the stadium, for the big games at least.

Anyhow, I'm not sure if that has any lessons for Casement, so I'm sorry for dragging things off topic.

[Evil Genius]

In my last post-but-one (Regional Stadium Programme), I might have provided some context as to why football is/was to be allocated this extra funding.

Following the Hillsborough Disaster, the subsequent Taylor Report brought in huge changes to how Football Stadia were built, designed, managed and maintained etc, including making the biggest stadia all-seater. There were also major H&S requirements eg stewarding, policing, segregation and alcohol bans. All of this cost huge sums and although this coincided with the huge rise in TV money, that only covered 20 out of the 92 league clubs in England, and none in Scotland or Wales

Anyhow, Westminster eventually allocated large sums to help clubs make the necessary changes, but this only applied to GB. Consequently, it was agreed that money should also be made available by Stormont to assist and implement the equivalent changes in NI, where stadia were already in a poor state, hence the Regional Programme.

[Baile Brigín 2]

I
The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium .

Did/do they though?

I could be wrong but this was my reading of the situation.

Was the GAA funding not similar to soccer but IFA decided to split monies between renovating Windsor and grassroots. Gaa decided( wrongly IMO) to put all its eggs in one basket, and given guaranteed 30k plus for ulster finals ( note 60k in Croke Park ulster final a few years ago), they thought 38k would be reasonable , and stormont were keen to have one of the 3 stadia able to host big concerts or rugby World Cup international in the North. Regeneration stimulus for West Belfast Also  featured in the decision . Quite rightly , residents had concerns which must be addressed. However it would be hard to  imagine the GAa agreeing to build a stadium with a capacity much less than the expected crowd for their showpiece Ulster final . There is also a concern that there are political elements up here who are delighted to see the GAA under pressure, which has complicated the picture

I get the argument that it was a choice between replacing Clones or a moderate sized stadium for Antrim. But the GAA decided that they had to wave their cocks too. Rugby and soccer 18k each? We will go 40. Doesn't fit? Plough on regardless, fcuk the locals.

The fact that Ulster Rugby and the Northern Ireland "national" soccer team play their games in stadia with a lower capacity than the Athletic Grounds tells its own story about sport in the wee six.

In any case, there's a huge amount of support in the local area for it. But as ever, it the most negative voices are heard the loudest.

I don't think it tells the story you think it does.

And there is a huge amount of gra for the GAA in D3. They just don't say it. Ever.

[Main Street]

The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium and are the biggest organisation, this debate is about a stadium so i'm not going to get into things like GAA belongs to one community only.

The GAA's agreed funding of £61m was no bigger than the IFA's £61m.

I think you're conflating two separate, though related, funding schemes MS.

Not really, the 138m funding package was finally agreed upon and announced  in 2011. There was only one total package of £138m,
GAA £61m IFA £61m UR £15m . How the IFA spent planned to spend their portion was also agreed upon by Stormont in the same announcement.
As mentioned earlier, the GAA focussed on the Casement project. The IFA planned to fund a serious upgrade of Linfield's WP, a training centre and various other stadium projects.

[Evil Genius]

The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium and are the biggest organisation, this debate is about a stadium so i'm not going to get into things like GAA belongs to one community only.

The GAA's agreed funding of £61m was no bigger than the IFA's £61m.

I think you're conflating two separate, though related, funding schemes MS.

Not really, the 138m funding package was finally agreed upon and announced  in 2011. There was only one total package of £138m,
GAA £61m IFA £61m UR £15m . How the IFA spent planned to spend their portion was also agreed upon by Stormont in the same announcement.
As mentioned earlier, the GAA focussed on the Casement project. The IFA planned to fund a serious upgrade of Linfield's WP, a training centre and various other stadium projects.

It may all have been announced at the one time, but I'm pretty sure that the IFA's £61m was made up in two separate parts, otherwise why would Stormont have delayed the disbursement of the Regional money until after the Windsor/Ravenhill/Casement funding?

I seem to recall that the second (i.e. non-Windsor) part of the IFA's grant was an extension to NI of the "Taylor Money" which had already been allocated to football in GB. I mean, it effectively all came from Westminster in the first place.

[Main Street]

The GAA's funding was bigger because they need the bigger stadium and are the biggest organisation, this debate is about a stadium so i'm not going to get into things like GAA belongs to one community only.

The GAA's agreed funding of £61m was no bigger than the IFA's £61m.

I think you're conflating two separate, though related, funding schemes MS.

Not really, the 138m funding package was finally agreed upon and announced  in 2011. There was only one total package of £138m,
GAA £61m IFA £61m UR £15m . How the IFA spent planned to spend their portion was also agreed upon by Stormont in the same announcement.
As mentioned earlier, the GAA focussed on the Casement project. The IFA planned to fund a serious upgrade of Linfield's WP, a training centre and various other stadium projects.

It may all have been announced at the one time, but I'm pretty sure that the IFA's £61m was made up in two separate parts, otherwise why would Stormont have delayed the disbursement of the Regional money until after the Windsor/Ravenhill/Casement funding?

I seem to recall that the second (i.e. non-Windsor) part of the IFA's grant was an extension to NI of the "Taylor Money" which had already been allocated to football in GB. I mean, it effectively all came from Westminster in the first place.

Faulty argument.   There is absolutely no doubt that there was one grant of £61m to the IFA which the IFA chose to spend according to their dictates and all this was agreed in 2011.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/three-cheers-for-stadium-funding-announcement-28598468.html

The second part of the 61m was released after the IFA and Linfield came to a legal agreeement.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/17130404

'Linfield will own the ground while the IFA will manage the stadium under the contract, which it is believed is nearing agreement.
The move will release a secondary pot of £31m, millions of which will be directed towards a redevelopment of Derry City's Brandywell stadium and also a new stadium for Glentoran.
A significant sum has also been earmarked for a national academy.'

Here is the official hansard report debate at Stormont which the IFA participated in
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/assembly-business/official-report/committee-minutes-of-evidence/session-2011-2012/june-2011/stadia-development-irish-football-association/

Please read the submission by Mr Patrick Nelson (IFA)

which includes the following quote
"Mick Cory mentioned that there was an NI Executive decision on 10 March about capital funding. The road to that point was a long one, and there were many false dawns along the way, but we were absolutely delighted that the Executive agreed funding for the national stadium redevelopment project and the subregional stadia project."

[illdecide]

That's the stuff Main Street...you tell him .