Eighth Amendment poll

Started by Farrandeelin, May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

magpie seanie

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't like people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

Sid, just a point of information here.
There is a dispute over what born actually means, legally speaking.
Some take it to mean the day in a hospital when you come out of the womb.
However others take it to be at the moment of conception.

These are such valid and divided stances that the state had to stop our court system ruling on the embryo case in 2006.

So ironically you don't get to define birth either.

It really is the key issue for this election

I'm sorry but I've never heard anyone claim something like this. It's clearly ridiculous. If you're looking for a definition a dictionary is usually a good place to start.

easytiger95

If a no voter tells me, honestly, that he/she considers a foetus to be alive from conception, and that they can't square their conscience with what the termination of that foetus would mean to them, then there is very little I can say to change their mind. I don't think I'd try either.

This is a vote of conscience - I don't think anyone going to the polls is doing so with a skip in their step. It is the most consequential social decision we have ever been asked to make.

The only regret anyone should have over their vote, is not using it. The campaigners on either side don't have to presume good faith on the part of their opponents. Perhaps we should do so here, so people don't have to be "humbled" at any stage of the game.

AZOffaly

100% Easytiger. That's well said.

Mayo4Sam

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:58:42 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't like people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

Sid, just a point of information here.
There is a dispute over what born actually means, legally speaking.
Some take it to mean the day in a hospital when you come out of the womb.
However others take it to be at the moment of conception.

These are such valid and divided stances that the state had to stop our court system ruling on the embryo case in 2006.

So ironically you don't get to define birth either.

It really is the key issue for this election

I'm sorry but I've never heard anyone claim something like this. It's clearly ridiculous. If you're looking for a definition a dictionary is usually a good place to start.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-says-court-cannot-rule-when-life-begins-1.1011943

Its an actual legal case, there is no legal definition for birth in Ireland, or rather when life begins
Excuse me for talking while you're trying to interrupt me

laoislad

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:49:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 10, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
To be fair Syf, that attitude is not unique to the no side. I think trueblue articulated it fairly well, and I'd be very similar, except I can't get over my problem with the 12 week elective. That's what is swaying me the way I am.

The 12 week elective is necessary to cover the cases of incest or rape (most - there will still be exceptions due mainly to later disclosure/discovery etc). How else would you propose these cases are dealt with? It's simply not possible to handle them any other way.

And it also covers the vast majority of elective cases that are already happening in the UK. You may not like this aspect but they are happening and surely it's more compassionate that a woman is able to have support round her and doesn't have to travel?

It's not easy Seanie, I understand that. I absolutely understand why people feel differently to me. But I have to vote with my conscience, and I just can't get past this aspect. I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote No. As long as everyone votes according to their true gut feel on it, then that's democracy, and even if I'm on the wrong side of the result, and I don't like this aspect, I will be happy that at least it was done for the right reasons.
Exactly how I feel about it and I'll also be voting No.
When you think you're fucked you're only about 40% fucked.

The Iceman

My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

whitey

Plenty of No voters have legitimate concerns and well thought out arguments for their decision

If the bullying going on here is representative of whats happening in broader society that could cost the Yes side a few percentage points. It happened with Brexit and it happened with Trump

magpie seanie

Quote from: whitey on May 10, 2018, 04:33:45 PM
Plenty of No voters have legitimate concerns and well thought out arguments for their decision

If the bullying going on here is representative of whats happening in broader society that could cost the Yes side a few percentage points. It happened with Brexit and it happened with Trump

Those are working out well.....!!!!

magpie seanie

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 10, 2018, 03:58:42 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on May 10, 2018, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 09, 2018, 12:55:33 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2018, 12:28:34 AM
We can all start the copy and paste nonsense sid. Except the child within a babies womb have no story to copy snd paste or ever will if it is taken away for no reason.

How can you have proper healthcare for all by taking away  the right to life of the unborn?

A healthy unborn child can have it's life ended with no legal consequences or justification. That is what the majority of abortions are and will be under the proposed legislation.
I'd thank you if you didn't flippantly dismiss the many real stories about the incredible harm the 8th Amendment causes as "nonsense", thanks.

You and every other No supporter has completely avoided dealing with them, because dealing with them would force you to confront the actual reality.

We're talking about real, actual human rights here - the right of women to not suffer grave health consequences because of conservative, patriarchal religious dogma, the right of a vulnerable woman not to have to carry a pregnancy to term against their wishes without risking a long jail sentence.

The nonsense I was taking about was your action of copy and pasting whole articles into this thread not that the actual stories ::)

I have discussed them, multiple times and I have said a better solution needs to be found for many of cases

Yes I am talking about real human rights, the first most basic right is the right to life, all other rights are subsequent to that primary right

I have laid out

Sure it was. Just admit that you don't like people quoting articles from reputable sources and actual real life experiences because both have a habit of destroying your argument.

Here's Article 1 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Note the key word "born".

You don't get to impose your own, erroneous definition of human rights, thanks.

The UN also states that Ireland's abortion laws are "cruel and inhumane".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/un-denounces-ireland-abortion-laws-as-cruel-and-inhumane-again

"Cruel and inhumane" are not words that are associated with human rights.

Sid, just a point of information here.
There is a dispute over what born actually means, legally speaking.
Some take it to mean the day in a hospital when you come out of the womb.
However others take it to be at the moment of conception.

These are such valid and divided stances that the state had to stop our court system ruling on the embryo case in 2006.

So ironically you don't get to define birth either.

It really is the key issue for this election

I'm sorry but I've never heard anyone claim something like this. It's clearly ridiculous. If you're looking for a definition a dictionary is usually a good place to start.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-says-court-cannot-rule-when-life-begins-1.1011943

Its an actual legal case, there is no legal definition for birth in Ireland, or rather when life begins

Huh? They're two different things. Big difference between "birth" and "when life begins" in my mind anyway.

Syferus

Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

trueblue1234

Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit

Syferus

Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...

I'd be genuinely upset if someone with your mindset didn't think that.

longballin

Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 05:42:28 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...

I'd be genuinely upset if someone with your mindset didn't think that.
I must have similar mindset. That is a most despicable attitude to women and a throwback to Ireland of the 1950s. Thankfully we've moved on which YES vote will confirm.

GJL

Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 10, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 10, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 PM
My offer to humble gallsman is not exclusive to this discussion - it's been an ongoing thing with him.  Most of his responses to me in discussions start with an insult. He doesn't know how to play the ball and I'd be happy to play the man if we ever did cross paths.  It's unfair to push that on anyone who votes no. And to be fair there are a fair few aggressive yes voters on this thread.

It's not hard to debate and discuss like adults. I have to draw a line somewhere and say enough is enough if I am being continually insulted. I wouldn't stand for it in person and I certainly am within my rights to call it out here.

I'd say you'd finish him like a woman finishes an embryo with the morning after pill..

You really are an odious poster...

+1

armaghniac

Quote from: gallsman on May 10, 2018, 11:03:48 AM
If your wife was raped and impregnated you'd be down the clinic in no time.

I do not favour this amendment, but I agree with this sentiment. I see no problem with a woman who was attacked getting a morning after pill or whatever it takes, quite the reverse I think the State must ensure that such people are treated.
However,  in my opinion, this is not the same thing as waiting 3 months and then deciding to have an abortion.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B