Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race

[thewobbler]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 54 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

In other words, a free kick merchant.

So he's averaged over 2 points a game from play, for over 60 games.

Something tells me that will stack up pretty well against the best full forwards of all time (for example Peter Canavan averaged 3.7 total including frees, over the course of his championship  career).

[Estimator]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

[Angelo]

But you guys are once again getting caught up between O'Connor's role as a finisher and free taker in a team that dominates the opposition.

O'Connor should be the top scorer in that Mayo team - both from play and overall, that is the bare minimum you'd expect from him. He's not a Conor McManus or a Michael Murphy where he is double marked, followed around the pitch and pulled and dragged at every opportunity, he's not the focal point for Mayo who they need to get on the ball to make things happen.

O'Connor ironically enough has the luxury of not being dangerous enough to pay him serious attention, Moran was the guy who showed for and won the ball, who would torment his man marker with his cleverness and movement, the guy who could turn his marker and create situations where there is a defender out of the game and who was usually the benefactor of those situations - O'Connor.

Look back at Mayo games and it's their ability to turn the game into such a frenzied tempo that nobody (bar Dublin) could live with it. Guys like Keegan, Vaughan, O'Shea, Higgins, Boyle etc all bursting through the middle with me over. There's always going to be handy scores there, there is always going to be a defender who has to split two or three men coming through when Mayo click like that and O'Connor generally was the guy who benefited from that, when those overlaps happened, all he had to do was peel off a few yards wide from the man breaking through and he has a simple finish.

The Donegal game in 2013 is an absolute classic example of that, he's the spare man who finishes when Mayo get on top of an opponent. Where O'Connor fails is when those overlaps aren't as plentiful, when his man marker is able to give him his full attention and not trying to put out the fires Keegan, Durcan, Boyle etc are raging with their runs through the middle, he struggles - that's when you really find out what a top class forward is made of and that is where Andy Moran has proven himself as one of the best forwards in the game and where Cillian O'Connor has been found wanting.

Kris Boyd scored more goals than Henrik Larsson is Scottish football but it's an insult to compare them as strikers.

[Angelo]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

[An Fhairche Abu]

Whether your opinion of Cillian O'Connor is favourable or unfavourable I don't think there is much argument around his scoring statistics, you can't hold the quality of his team-mates against him and even if you consider that he is just a functional player and not an aesthetically pleasing flair one, a score is a score, this talk of "handy ones" is absolute nonsense, Mayo have gone long into the season in a good number of years while he has been in the team and have played all the top teams of their era.

I would admit that I am not a fan of O'Connor at all myself (it would be hard for me to even think of a player I dislike more) given the current Galway/Mayo dynamic and his antics on the pitch but it's simply churlish to try and knock him for what he is actually good at which is scoring heavily. If Mayo had knocked off a couple of AI titles in (say in 2013 and 2016 for arguments sake) when they had excellent chances then I think the narrative would be very different here.

[MayoBuck]

You keep saying Mayo are a team that dominate the opposition. We haven't managed to win an All Ireland or even Connacht the last 4 years. It's nothing like the dominance Dublin have and Kerry have in Munster. Apart from probably the 2013 Connacht Championship every other one had several tough games and Cillian played a vital role in winning them.

People bringing up McManus, Murphy and Brogan again who have multiple all stars, player of the year awards etc. They are (rightly) lauded as generational talents, something never spoken about with Cillian. If you look at the amount of scores Cillian sets up for Keegan, paddy Durcan and others running through, also the amount of turnovers he wins off corner backs he offers plenty to the team besides an outrageous scoring tally.

[Angelo]

Whether your opinion of Cillian O'Connor is favourable or unfavourable I don't think there is much argument around his scoring statistics, you can't hold the quality of his team-mates against him and even if you consider that he is just a functional player and not an aesthetically pleasing flair one, a score is a score, this talk of "handy ones" is absolute nonsense, Mayo have gone long into the season in a good number of years while he has been in the team and have played all the top teams of their era.

I would admit that I am not a fan of O'Connor at all myself (it would be hard for me to even think of a player I dislike more) given the current Galway/Mayo dynamic and his antics on the pitch but it's simply churlish to try and knock him for what he is actually good at which is scoring heavily. If Mayo had knocked off a couple of AI titles in (say in 2013 and 2016 for arguments sake) when they had excellent chances then I think the narrative would be very different here.

His scoring record is what it is.

But of course you can hold the quality of his team mates, the style of football that Mayo - otherwise you're just encouraging lazy analysis where you look at the scorers on the newspaper report and make your judgement.

I've seen O'Connor play live a number of times and it has reinforced my views on him - he doesn't show for the ball, he's not strong enough off his left side, for a big guy he's not a particularly great ball winner and he lacks pace. I'll give him his dues in that he's a good finisher and he works hard defending from the front (but gets away with a lot of nonsense too). But he has severe limitations and there's no way he gets anywhere close to those scoring stats playing for any other county in the country. In fact a good few of the top teams he'd struggle to make as they have free takers as better, as good as or close enough to being as good that the difference is negligible when you consider what extra the alternatives can give you from play.

I don't think O'Connor would get on the Armagh team right now when you look at some of their forwards. The likes of Grimely, O'Neill and Grugan are probably every bit as good of free takers as O'Connor is and offer you far more from play, then you have the likes of Clarke, Murnin, Campbell, Rafferty, Hall and Turbitt there too.

[thewobbler]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.



With a record of over 2 from play, my guess is that if you were to spend the next 3 days analysing the from-play scoring average of every forward with 30+ championship matches under their belt, COC would be in the top 10. You won't do that though, because once you head off the big hitters like Cooper, Sheehy, Joyce and Fitzgerald, you'll realise just how good over 2 from play is.



Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

[Angelo]

You keep saying Mayo are a team that dominate the opposition. We haven't managed to win an All Ireland or even Connacht the last 4 years. It's nothing like the dominance Dublin have and Kerry have in Munster. Apart from probably the 2013 Connacht Championship every other one had several tough games and Cillian played a vital role in winning them.

People bringing up McManus, Murphy and Brogan again who have multiple all stars, player of the year awards etc. They are (rightly) lauded as generational talents, something never spoken about with Cillian. If you look at the amount of scores Cillian sets up for Keegan, paddy Durcan and others running through, also the amount of turnovers he wins off corner backs he offers plenty to the team besides an outrageous scoring tally.

I don't see that, I see a forward who has the type of freedom and autonomy Murphy, McManus etc couldn't even dream of ever having. I've said I'd give him his dues in that he's a good finisher and he works hard from the front but that's the height of it really.

He is not a good ball winner
He has no real flair or inventiveness
His movement is sub standard
He lacks pace
For a big guy he is not particularly great in the air
He's fairly one sided

I'm not doubting his finishing ability and his work rate and I think he has certainly made the most of his abilities but when you see him live, it is painfully obvious how limited he is. The real top level forwards are capable of surviving on scraps, O'Connor would be anonymous on them.

[Angelo]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.

[thewobbler]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.

Oh seriously would you just f**k off? Every single player in the history of football has played in turkey shoots, but almost half the matches he has played for Mayo have been AI quarter finals, super 8s or later. These things don't just balance each other out, they add complete credence to his case.

You are a myopic, biased, contorted mess of a human being.

[thewobbler]

Also before I go.

Tell me which of these "real top-level forwards capable of surviving on scraps", use their extraordinary abilities to out score O'Connor from play. Just the corner forwards please, so we can compare like for like.

[Estimator]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Of course it is. I have Muldoon and Lynch making 54 C'ship appearance for Derry. Muldoon did play out field a bit, but was regularly used as FF, as he was when Derry got to the AI semifinals in 2001 & 2004.

I have O'Connor on 55 appearances (one more than Lar accounted, but we'll not fall out over that)

The following players have made more than 55 C'ship appearances:
Gooch - 85
John Doyle - 67
Murphy - 67
B Brogan - 66
P Joyce - 60
McDonnell - 62
McManus - 57
S O'Neill - 65
Mulligan - 61
Coulter - 58

Quite a few of those were predominantly inside forwards and the go to men on the dominant team, as well as hitting frees.  A few of them have multiple All-Ireland titles. Some have one. Only Doyle, McManus and Coulter are without.

And if we are applying the logic of discounting large individual scores against "weaker" opposition, then the same should be applied to all players.
Eg Dean Rock scored 1-11 against Roscommon last year(?) That's gone.
The 3-04 McDonnell scored against Limerick in 2003
The 3-04 A O'Shea scored against Sligo in 2015

I think we should set up and panel to decide which scores count and which do not.

[An Fhairche Abu]

Whether your opinion of Cillian O'Connor is favourable or unfavourable I don't think there is much argument around his scoring statistics, you can't hold the quality of his team-mates against him and even if you consider that he is just a functional player and not an aesthetically pleasing flair one, a score is a score, this talk of "handy ones" is absolute nonsense, Mayo have gone long into the season in a good number of years while he has been in the team and have played all the top teams of their era.

I would admit that I am not a fan of O'Connor at all myself (it would be hard for me to even think of a player I dislike more) given the current Galway/Mayo dynamic and his antics on the pitch but it's simply churlish to try and knock him for what he is actually good at which is scoring heavily. If Mayo had knocked off a couple of AI titles in (say in 2013 and 2016 for arguments sake) when they had excellent chances then I think the narrative would be very different here.

His scoring record is what it is.

But of course you can hold the quality of his team mates, the style of football that Mayo - otherwise you're just encouraging lazy analysis where you look at the scorers on the newspaper report and make your judgement.

I've seen O'Connor play live a number of times and it has reinforced my views on him - he doesn't show for the ball, he's not strong enough off his left side, for a big guy he's not a particularly great ball winner and he lacks pace. I'll give him his dues in that he's a good finisher and he works hard defending from the front (but gets away with a lot of nonsense too). But he has severe limitations and there's no way he gets anywhere close to those scoring stats playing for any other county in the country. In fact a good few of the top teams he'd struggle to make as they have free takers as better, as good as or close enough to being as good that the difference is negligible when you consider what extra the alternatives can give you from play.

I don't think O'Connor would get on the Armagh team right now when you look at some of their forwards. The likes of Grimely, O'Neill and Grugan are probably every bit as good of free takers as O'Connor is and offer you far more from play, then you have the likes of Clarke, Murnin, Campbell, Rafferty, Hall and Turbitt there too.

This assertion is as absurd as this Galway man having to defend the actual facts around his scoring record, those Armagh lads have never even played in matches of the magnitude that O'Connor has, much less have the scoring record in those to match.

I've also just realised you're the same lad who tried to argue here against the actual video evidence that was there for anyone with a set of eyes to see with respect to the red card Kieran McGeary got in the league match in Tuam. If there can be no agreement even on the facts as they are to hand to debate around then what's the point. You are either on the wind up or haven't a clue. I'm out.

[Lar Naparka]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Of course it is. I have Muldoon and Lynch making 54 C'ship appearance for Derry. Muldoon did play out field a bit, but was regularly used as FF, as he was when Derry got to the AI semifinals in 2001 & 2004.

I have O'Connor on 55 appearances (one more than Lar accounted, but we'll not fall out over that)

The following players have made more than 55 C'ship appearances:
Gooch - 85
John Doyle - 67
Murphy - 67
B Brogan - 66
P Joyce - 60
McDonnell - 62
McManus - 57
S O'Neill - 65
Mulligan - 61
Coulter - 58

Quite a few of those were predominantly inside forwards and the go to men on the dominant team, as well as hitting frees.  A few of them have multiple All-Ireland titles. Some have one. Only Doyle, McManus and Coulter are without.

And if we are applying the logic of discounting large individual scores against "weaker" opposition, then the same should be applied to all players.
Eg Dean Rock scored 1-11 against Roscommon last year(?) That's gone.
The 3-04 McDonnell scored against Limerick in 2003
The 3-04 A O'Shea scored against Sligo in 2015

I think we should set up and panel to decide which scores count and which do not.

Touché!
Sorry 'bout that. I thought I had corrected the figure in the final draft but I see I let it through.