Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race

[rosnarun]

You’re absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He’s only played 60-odd championship games. It’s not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone’s blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven’t had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He’s a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.

Weak link my arse . hes the highest scoring player in championship football off all time.
that's more than Canavan Gooch Maurice fitz Padraic Joyce , Larry Tompkins both Rocks ,  Michal murphy   etc etc . you name him Cillian has scored more .
you letting you prejudice Cloud your Judgment a little methnks

[joemamas]

When you judge him you cannot forget that he played on a team that everyone pointed out were missing get two forwards, so in my opinion, he got so much extra attention because of that, and had to work even harder for his scores and frees that he was awarded.
Agree like most, he got cranky over the least three or four years.
Still will never diminish his total effort and sacrifice to the Mayo cause.

[Estimator]

You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

I do know that Tyrone lack a top class inside forward or did until McShane arrived on the scene last year. McCurry and McAliskey blow hot and cold but are very dangerous players in the right system and when they're firing - more dangerous than O'Connor for me personally but none of them are top level. The difference is that between 2011-present I think Mayo have been a lot strong from 1-12 than Tyrone have, you could say they have been stronger from 13-15 too but that would probably be down solely to Andy Moran too.

Just out of interest, what is McCurry's Championship total at present? Canavan has approx 210/220 points to his name.

[BennyCake]

You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He's a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.

Weak link my arse . hes the highest scoring player in championship football off all time.
that's more than Canavan Gooch Maurice fitz Padraic Joyce , Larry Tompkins both Rocks ,  Michal murphy   etc etc . you name him Cillian has scored more .
you letting you prejudice Cloud your Judgment a little methnks

He's still not half the player of any of those.

[Angelo]

You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

I do know that Tyrone lack a top class inside forward or did until McShane arrived on the scene last year. McCurry and McAliskey blow hot and cold but are very dangerous players in the right system and when they're firing - more dangerous than O'Connor for me personally but none of them are top level. The difference is that between 2011-present I think Mayo have been a lot strong from 1-12 than Tyrone have, you could say they have been stronger from 13-15 too but that would probably be down solely to Andy Moran too.

Just out of interest, what is McCurry's Championship total at present? Canavan has approx 210/220 points to his name.

Think it's 4-96 or something along those lines so he's effectively halfway there and 4 good seasons for him would effectively get him there, he's 27/28 now.

I think he would definitely be very close to that now if the likes of Bradley, Brennan etc hadn't came on the scene and he retained his free taking duties.

[Angelo]

When you judge him you cannot forget that he played on a team that everyone pointed out were missing get two forwards, so in my opinion, he got so much extra attention because of that, and had to work even harder for his scores and frees that he was awarded.
Agree like most, he got cranky over the least three or four years.
Still will never diminish his total effort and sacrifice to the Mayo cause.

I don't think that's the case at all.

You look at who his marker was in a lot of those biggest games, it generally wasn't the go to man marker - that job was usually put on Moran, when O'Shea played inside he was double marked. You look at the attention guys like McManus, Murphy, McBrearty get. I never saw any team really singling O'Connor out as the dangerman.

He's a finisher no question but playing for a side like Mayo who at their peak played with such intensity and ferocity that they could get a huge stranglehold in the middle of the pitch, that would push men forward and have runners coming off the shoulder at every opportunity - it's easy to find that extra bit of space.

I had a look at the Donegal game in 2013 and 3 goals he scored.

The first goal probably shows his strengths the best, he won the ball back on the endline off the Donegal defender (potentially a foul) passed it outside to McLoughlin who weaved and dodged a couple of challenges before passing back inside to an unmarked O'Connor who finished nicely.

The second and third goals summed up why O'Connor has scored so much for Mayo. For the second goal Higgins plays a ball into O'Connor, Eamon McGee beats O'Connor to the ball but only palms it to Vaughan who runs in on goal with only Durcan to beat and slips the ball to O'Connor who is unmarked with McGee out of play and taps into an empty net.

The third comes after Moran skins his marker runs in on goal and shoots, Durcan stops the shot, the ball falls to O'Connor who drives home from 7 yards.

He deserves credit for the first goal but the second and third were merely profiting off the good work of others. He's a finisher but he's probably the one regular in that Mayo side who I'd have been looking for an awful lot more from in the big games.

He reminds me of Kris Boyd in that regard, you can't argue with his scoring record but he's not able to do it by himself, he needs it served on a plate.

[Angelo]

You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He's a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.

Weak link my arse . hes the highest scoring player in championship football off all time.
that's more than Canavan Gooch Maurice fitz Padraic Joyce , Larry Tompkins both Rocks ,  Michal murphy   etc etc . you name him Cillian has scored more .
you letting you prejudice Cloud your Judgment a little methnks

Kris Boyd scored more goals in Scottish football than Henrik Larsson.

[thewobbler]

Now he's analysing a game in which COC scored 3-4 against the reigning AI champions, as evidence of his weaknesses.

There's no reasoning with someone who could convince themselves that water flows uphill..

Over and out from me.

[Angelo]

Now he's analysing a game in which COC scored 3-4 against the reigning AI champions, as evidence of his weaknesses.

There's no reasoning with someone who could convince themselves that water flows uphill..

Over and out from me.

I'm analysing it in the terms of people just hoisting his scoring record up without any context.

His scoring record is impressive but his performances have not really been so, it's lazy analysis to just point to his scoring record.

O'Connor might have scored 3-04 against the reigning All Ireland champions but he wasn't even the best Mayo player on the pitch.

[dublin7]

You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

See now you're just talking nonsense.

Mayo absolutely steamrolled Donegal in that game, absolutely devoured them in the middle of the pitch. Mayo were running through the middle with threes and fours everywhere walking the ball into the net.

How many of those goals against Kerry were penalties?

Higgins, Boyle, Keegan, Doherty, the O'Sheas, Diarmuid O'Connor Barrett, Parsons, McLoughlin, Moran, Doherty. There's many brilliant players in that Mayo team, for me O'Connor always stood out as one of the weak links, in the big games he always stood out as a player they needed much more from in the general play of the game.

Yeah I agree.

He's a red card waiting to happen every game. Such a frustrating player.

Weak link my arse . hes the highest scoring player in championship football off all time.
that's more than Canavan Gooch Maurice fitz Padraic Joyce , Larry Tompkins both Rocks ,  Michal murphy   etc etc . you name him Cillian has scored more .
you letting you prejudice Cloud your Judgment a little methnks

I think Lar summed up COC best a few pages back. Prolific as a youngster, but he's more of a threat with his elbows than his shooting boots the last few years.

COC has scored more than the players listed above by ros but they difference is the likes of Gooch, Michael Murphy, Brogans etc. could take over games, dominate and at times were unmarkable. He doesn't have the pace of Bernard Brogan or power of Michael Murphy to beat defenders so he can't dominate games like all the other top forwards

[rosnarun]

no but he out scores them all , time and time again. hes in no way a flash player .
and the hypothesis put forward that he just benefits from the work of others is probably the best complement you could pay him or any decent scoring forward
unlike Murphy who out around the middle of the field being an Average midfielder instead of being an excellent forward .

Scores win Games and he is the best in history at getting them  pre the current generation Mayos weakness was not getting the score any eegit
should have got when they probably had as stong an all round team.
Cillian is the Difference

[dublin7]

no but he out scores them all , time and time again. hes in no way a flash player .
and the hypothesis put forward that he just benefits from the work of others is probably the best complement you could pay him or any decent scoring forward
unlike Murphy who out around the middle of the field being an Average midfielder instead of being an excellent forward .

Scores win Games and he is the best in history at getting them  pre the current generation Mayos weakness was not getting the score any eegit
should have got when they probably had as stong an all round team.
Cillian is the Difference

Of course COC outscores them. He's been the regular Mayo free taker for years. It's very rare in a game at any level of football that the top scorer isn't the free taker, then expand that out over multiple seasons. Gooch didn't take frees for Kerry and while Brogan has taken frees at times for Dublin he's never had an extended run as the free taker. Donegal unfortunately for them don't have the luxury of leaving Michael Murphy in the forward line for a whole game. If they did his scoring stats would be even more impressive than they already are.

The best complement you can pay a scoring forward is that their performance was so good they were unmarkable. The likes of Gooch, Brogan, Joyce etc have had days were you could just launch the ball into them any old way and they'd find a way to put it over the bar.

I assume you mean the current Mayo team came close, but failed over the last few years because of a lack of scoring power. How many of those games against Dublin did they dominate in the 1st half on the pitch but failed to make their dominance count on the scoreboard?

Andy Moran was a difference maker in that Mayo forward line. He was the focal point of Mayo's attack and was picked up by Dublin's best man markers whenever they played the dubs. That will be the big loss for Mayo now. He was the leader of that forward line so they need someone to take over from him. COC as a senior player could take on that role if he could focus on just playing football rather than starting arguments with the opposition/officials all the time

[Lar Naparka]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 54 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

In other words, a free kick merchant.

[MayoBuck]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

Not bad going for the team's weak link!