A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[armaghniac]

East Germany is of some use as an analogy, but it's relevance should not be overstated. NI has not had an entirely different economic structure as the DDR had. NI's problems are bigotry and being run as a branch operation. The only cure, however long it takes, for bigotry is to end the entity set up to promote bigotry. There seems no reason why the economy should remain hugely different in Newry than Dundalk.

[balladmaker]

The problems of unification of Germany are still present after 27 years and will probably take several generations to alleviate and that was a country divided only for about 45 years.  The recent influx of migrants from Syria and beyond knew enough not to re-settle in the East despite that being the plan of Angela Merkel as the region remains underpopulated and still running behind the West of the country.

It isn't apples for apples.  East Germany was an impoverished communist wasteland.  Although the north is no longer an industrial powerhouse, the massive differentiation between East / West Germany in no way compares to the north / south situation on this island.  Yes, there will be teething problems with any unification process that will take years to sort itself out.  This whole discussion needs to be looked on from the context of a new Ireland, as opposed to a United Ireland ... the latter has too many SF related connotations for our unionist neighbours.  I seen Varadkar eluded to it the other day, we need to be open to a unified island with a Dail in Dublin, and a set-up of some sort in the north as well to recognise the almost 1 million who consider themselves British.  Under normal circumstances in Westminster, Unionist representation is less than 2%.  In an All-Ireland context, this would be around 18%.  With electoral boundary changes on the way in the north next year, resulting in possible 3 less Unionist seats, the writing really is on the wall for the whole Unionist project.  They've had almost 100 years of it, and the north is only a shadow of it's former industrial self as a result, with the knock-on impact on the border counties in the south as well.

I think there would be massive positive feedback to reunification from the international community, with subsequent influx of investment, tourism etc. all wanting to be part of this new nation state.  Interesting times ahead. 

[smelmoth]

Almost everyone now accepts that ther will never be a united ireland unless people vote for it in 2 separate referenda. All sensible people realise that to get people to vote for it they will have to set out the economic arguments that will win the day in the north and separately in the south.

If you are hoping for a united ireland in the next 50 years you might want to ask yourself what is this compelling economic argument going to look like? Who is working on the detail of it and who is going to make the case for it?

Otherwise what is the point?

[seafoid]

Pension funds today just speculate money. They don't invest much. I think roi Pension funds have €100 bn. 20% of that invested in giving the north a kick up the arse and boosting productivity could do a lot. The biggest obstacles appear to be psychological.

[armaghniac]

Almost everyone now accepts that ther will never be a united ireland unless people vote for it in 2 separate referenda. All sensible people realise that to get people to vote for it they will have to set out the economic arguments that will win the day in the north and separately in the south.

If you are hoping for a united ireland in the next 50 years you might want to ask yourself what is this compelling economic argument going to look like? Who is working on the detail of it and who is going to make the case for it?

Otherwise what is the point?

The reason for a UI is to remove division and end a situation where people in the 6 counties are second class citizens in a colony. However a workable economic model is required to do this.

Sadly, so called 'nationalist' politicians in NI have done little or nothing to advance thinking in this regard and haven't shown any sign of the ability to do so.

[Owen Brannigan]

Almost everyone now accepts that ther will never be a united ireland unless people vote for it in 2 separate referenda. All sensible people realise that to get people to vote for it they will have to set out the economic arguments that will win the day in the north and separately in the south.

If you are hoping for a united ireland in the next 50 years you might want to ask yourself what is this compelling economic argument going to look like? Who is working on the detail of it and who is going to make the case for it?

Otherwise what is the point?

The reason for a UI is to remove division and end a situation where people in the 6 counties are second class citizens in a colony. However a workable economic model is required to do this.

Sadly, so called 'nationalist' politicians in NI have done little or nothing to advance thinking in this regard and haven't shown any sign of the ability to do so.

That's the key point, whether laziness or more likely a talent deficit given the SF economic illiteracy, it is much easy to be rhetorical in your demands for a UI and to use it as an irritant to half of the community as part of the long cultural war being fought at present.  No sense that there is a desire to realise that a successful unification needs a plan based on economics, cultural diversity and reconciliation or we just repeat the period from 1968 to 1998.

[Kilkevan]

These surveys are meaningless. No rational person can be in favour of a United Ireland without a plan. People vote for the SDLP to have such a plan produced.

https://youtu.be/G0ZZJXw4MTA

[smelmoth]

Almost everyone now accepts that ther will never be a united ireland unless people vote for it in 2 separate referenda. All sensible people realise that to get people to vote for it they will have to set out the economic arguments that will win the day in the north and separately in the south.

If you are hoping for a united ireland in the next 50 years you might want to ask yourself what is this compelling economic argument going to look like? Who is working on the detail of it and who is going to make the case for it?

Otherwise what is the point?

The reason for a UI is to remove division and end a situation where people in the 6 counties are second class citizens in a colony. However a workable economic model is required to do this.

Sadly, so called 'nationalist' politicians in NI have done little or nothing to advance thinking in this regard and haven't shown any sign of the ability to do so.

How would a united ireland fix a division?

In what sense are people in NI second class citizens? Who are the first class citizens?

[smelmoth]

Almost everyone now accepts that ther will never be a united ireland unless people vote for it in 2 separate referenda. All sensible people realise that to get people to vote for it they will have to set out the economic arguments that will win the day in the north and separately in the south.

If you are hoping for a united ireland in the next 50 years you might want to ask yourself what is this compelling economic argument going to look like? Who is working on the detail of it and who is going to make the case for it?

Otherwise what is the point?

The reason for a UI is to remove division and end a situation where people in the 6 counties are second class citizens in a colony. However a workable economic model is required to do this.

Sadly, so called 'nationalist' politicians in NI have done little or nothing to advance thinking in this regard and haven't shown any sign of the ability to do so.

That's the key point, whether laziness or more likely a talent deficit given the SF economic illiteracy, it is much easy to be rhetorical in your demands for a UI and to use it as an irritant to half of the community as part of the long cultural war being fought at present.  No sense that there is a desire to realise that a successful unification needs a plan based on economics, cultural diversity and reconciliation or we just repeat the period from 1968 to 1998.

The argument of laziness and/or talent deficit only gets you so far. If the argument is not there to be made the talent or work ethic of person expected to make the argument is an irrelevance

[T Fearon]

Unionists will not sell their perceived birthright for economic gain.If they were amenable to this then they would have done so during the Celtic Tiger era (not that the North was wanted by Dublin).

The real and only hope is for the Northern Irish community to oust the toxic and divisive unionist and nationalist ideologies.

[BennyCake]

And how do you propose to do that, T?

[T Fearon]

As the prominent surgeon,Protestant and pro Irish Unity,John Robb has been saying for years,both London and Dublin should,in tandem,renounce their constitutional claim to the North (I suppose Dublin has done this already,with the abolition of Articles 2 and 3.

Start with the sizeable number of people in the North who don't vote.

Offer them an alternative to sterile zero sum Unionist v nationalist politics.

Build momentum and draw in slow learners who are still deluded unionists or nationalists

[seafoid]

Unionists will not sell their perceived birthright for economic gain.If they were amenable to this then they would have done so during the Celtic Tiger era (not that the North was wanted by Dublin).

The real and only hope is for the Northern Irish community to oust the toxic and divisive unionist and nationalist ideologies.

Unionists don't have an identity beyond the ideology. It really is all about no.
SF isn't great but it could never be as deluded as the DUP

[armaghniac]

Unionists will not sell their perceived birthright for economic gain.If they were amenable to this then they would have done so during the Celtic Tiger era (not that the North was wanted by Dublin).

The issue is not unionists, the issue is that at present no serious discussion of the many issues that might arise is being undertaken because there is an economic block, one encouraged by the British and the Unionists. The substantial middle ground block do not see a need to seriously consider the issue because the sums (on the information presented) do not add up.

The real and only hope is for the Northern Irish community to oust the toxic and divisive unionist and nationalist ideologies.

Fixed that for you.

[T Fearon]

Read these words slowly.Over the last 100 years Dublin has done nothing to advocate even for a United Ireland,has rescinded its claim to the North and has admitted that Unity is not affordable.