Divisional teams in the Laois SFC

[Keyser Söze]

There might be some breaking news about Divisional style teams for the year ahead. It may be possible providing, the Co board gives permissions, for players in intermediate and junior clubs to play for a senior club while also playing with their own club. The only difficulty is that such a senior team if it wins senior championship can't take part in Leinster club. Mind you I don't think that will bother many football teams considering the dominance of Portlaoise. You could have Emo/ Courtwood, Stradbally Parish Gaels and Mountmellick Parish Gaels, Heath Gaels, St Josephs/ Barrowhouse among others.

Apparently Emo have an altogether different plan!
And it doesn't involve their neighbours!
Anybody else heard this?

[Helix]

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Apparently Emo have an altogether different plan!
And it doesn't involve their neighbours!
Anybody else heard this?
[/quote]

Clonaslee Keyser?

[Keyser Söze]

Slieve Bloom!

[Downtheroad]

Slieve Bloom  linking up with Emo is doing the rounds. It won't be a runner for football if Castletown put in a football team as if there is a football team in a parish Slieve Bloom will have to stay put. Mind you the group status team could allow for junior and intermediate players to play outside the parish. I think the biggest problem and the reason why Ballyroan abu is almost certainly right in saying it won't happen  are situations where intermediate and junior players will want to cherry pick their group team which can make the whole thing unmanageable.

[Keyser Söze]

Slieve Bloom  linking up with Emo is doing the rounds. It won't be a runner for football if Castletown put in a football team as if there is a football team in a parish Slieve Bloom will have to stay put.

No idea if Castletown have a football team or not but I was talking to someone about this and they pointed out that if this was to happen then Emo would potentially have players involved as follows;

Emo Senior Football
Emo Junior B Football
Emo Courtwood The Rock Minor Football
Emo Courtwood The Rock U21 Football
Na Fianna Minor Hurling (Mmellick, Clonaslee, Ballyfin, Emo, Courtwood)
Na Fianna U21 Hurling (Mmellick, Clonaslee, Ballyfin, Emo, Courtwood)
Slieve Bloom Junior Hurling

The point he made was as follows- How could a fixtures programme function for league & Championship with all the crossovers as above. This would have huge implications for the opponents of any of the 7 clubs interlinked above.
For example the same player, at 17 or 18 years of age (during the league) could be playing ACFL 1, ACFL 5 with Emo, MFL with Emo Courtwood, MHL with Na Fianna & ACHL 3 with Slieve Bloom.
Thats without mentioning the other 5 clubs involved in the already established amalgamations

Sensible divisional amalgamations might be a good idea but be careful what you wish for. Already lots of games are moved and on hold (see the U21 championships in both codes 2015) as a result of the amount of clubs involved with the likes of Na Fianna.

It would have massive fixture implications for all clubs competing in any of the grades above.

Of course it is all rumour, but it would be interesting to see how the county board would handle it!

[Keyser Söze]

I think the biggest problem and the reason why Ballyroan abu is almost certainly right in saying it won't happen  are situations where intermediate and junior players will want to cherry pick their group team which can make the whole thing unmanageable.

If this happens there will be a host of clubs becoming one code clubs and allowing their players to travel as isolated players to play with whatever club they wish to play for. There doesn't seem to be many restrictions on where you can go (how far or across how many other teams etc).
In the past few years I have seen;
Clough Ballacolla hurler play with Annanough football
St Josephs footballer play juvenile hurling with The Harps Gaels
Castletown & Borris in Ossory hurlers play football with Mountmellick

That is all well and good but if for example a Clough Ballacolla SHC game clashed with an Annanough IFC game in the fixture schedule. Does the player have to chose? Does one game get moved? If it's the latter, then the opponents involved in the moved game are potentially aggrieved- work commitments, holidays, people working away midweek etc.

The movement of isolated players and the formation of divisional juvenile teams among a whole host of clubs (Na Fianna again for example) already must cause fixture headaches.

It is also my understanding of the above that there would be nothing to stop several players from Clough Ballacolla for example going to several different football clubs? Is this correct I wonder?

[Pablo Escobar]

I tend to disagree with this notion of seeding players into established Senior clubs.. I do realise that this can occur within one code clubs who have players who wish to play the other. I believe the Emo situation is more  their pursuit of one player rather than a solution to the lack of competition in Laois football. Will Emo really look after all the interests of Slieve Bloom footballers? . I somehow doubt it. I believe the only solution is for Divisional teams be that 2,3 or 4 teams supported initially by the county board to be created and to reduce the number of Senior clubs in Laois football down to 8 (Obviously over a period of time).This as a result will keep the championship strong by making the clubs competitive and it will also strengthen the divisional sides. It will be tough to implement, it will not be sucessful straight out of the gate but if it was allowed to settle and become an embedded fabric of Laois football it will have a chance. However will the county board be prepared to rock the boat , I doubt it. Portlaoise I believe were one of a small number of Senior clubs to support the last great push for this showing us that they believe they need competition within Laois to achieve their aims. I hear this rumour of seeding players from junior and Intermediate clubs into established senior teams is problematic and extremely messy. Junior and Intermediate clubs essentially become feeder teams. Timahoe men playing for Stradbally under the Stradbally banner not a parish outfit. It doesn't sound right to me but if these rumours are to be believed this is what we will see. The senior clubs of Laois will have to take in the bigger picture. Laois football is at a very low ebb both at underage and Senior level and something needs to be done and done properly.

[BallyroanAbu]

Your wasting alot of effort on unworkable divisional teams.  Emo & Slieve Bloom is a non runner.  Much more likely at a point in the future is the Rock & Emo playing together at senior level.  These are two teams who have  natural linkage.  Ballyroan & Abbeyleix works because of location & history.  Even with that it's extremely tricky as you can have young players playing 5 or 6 grades of Hurling & Football.  The Rock & Emo would be workable if they overcome their differences.

[merman]

I think this conversation has changed over the last couple of weeks and I'm less comfortable with the way this could be heading.

A proposal went to the Laois GAA convention a couple of years from Kyle to allow their players play as 'isolated' players on senior hurling teams but still remain as Kyle players and could compete at junior/intermediate level. This was to be brought to Croke Park and examined but I don't think anything was ever really done about it. I understand that Ballypickas have pushed this idea more recently and it has gained some traction at county board level. I have complete respect for both these small clubs and with these individual instances you can really see why this proposal could save them losing players as happened them recently (Darren Gilmartin to Camross being the most obvious example) and is likely to happen again next year. Both Ballypickas and Kyle are facing losing top underage players next year.

I'm not au fait with all the bye-laws that Laois GAA have or could pass but I think it might be a stretch for them to introduce this without it becoming a sanctioned GAA rule. Or am I missing something? There's obviously no precedent there or we would already have seen some movement.

My view on divisional teams is that it should give players with no realistic option of playing senior football/hurling the chance to do so. I am less convinced of the merits (or indeed the fairness) of established senior clubs cherry-picking players from any junior/intermediate club to boost their short-term chances.
I have no gripe with the Emo club but I would be uncomfortable with this proposed link with Slieve Bloom, though I must add I know and have heard nothing about it save what I've read here. If clubs want to bring isolated players (like Darren Maher who played for Annanough when Clough/Ballacolla had no football team) then the rules are already in place to do so. Mountmellick do it with hurlers from Emo; The Harps have done it with footballers from Rathdoweny/Errill and CB so it is not as such, uncommon.

The proposed Divisional team from a couple of years ago left a sour taste in the mouth of some football clubs. I understand the proposal was broadly supported by the hurling clubs (who lent their support or abstained) but few senior football clubs supported it. Fair enough; their perogative.
I anticipate it will be revisited in due course but there are other less radical things that could happen before then.

The argument can logically be made that Laois isn't necessarily big enough to support area teams. The system in Kerry works geographically and it makes sense with the clubs involved. It might not definitely translate here. Yes, look into it. Trial it. But let's not pin all our hopes on it.

In Laois, we have parishes that are just too small to support two clubs. We have instances of clubs pooling together at underage level and then disbanding and going their separate way after minor or u21. I believe this is the conversation that needs to be had. Reducing the number of teams in the Senior Football Championship is a matter of urgency. Then, we might actually see a scenario where if clubs want to be genuinely competitive again at the very top level then they might need to look at the models of Borris and Kilcotton or Rathdoweny and Errill.

[Keyser Söze]

In Laois, we have parishes that are just too small to support two clubs. We have instances of clubs pooling together at underage level and then disbanding and going their separate way after minor or u21. I believe this is the conversation that needs to be had. Reducing the number of teams in the Senior Football Championship is a matter of urgency. Then, we might actually see a scenario where if clubs want to be genuinely competitive again at the very top level then they might need to look at the models of Borris and Kilcotton or Rathdoweny and Errill.

Agreed.
Sort this first.

[Pat Spillall]

Lads some facts need to be stated here before you go any further with this topic.
Rule 3.19 (m) (i) and (ii) of the Official Guide Part 1, 2015

3.19 (m) (i) To allow Junior and Intermediate players of Clubs, including players of Clubs unable to field Junior and/or Intermediate teams, to play for Divisional or Group Senior teams

(ii)To allow Junior and Intermediate players of Clubs, including players of Clubs unable to field Junior and Intermediate teams, to play for Group Intermediate teams.
Arrangements shall be subject to annual review by the County Committee.
Players by so playing in these Divisional or Group teams shall not lose their Championship status.

As you can see from the above a player from a Junior or Intermediate club can play with a Senior club (inside or outside their parish) making that Senior team a group or divisional team which will require a name change (such as Gaels etc) and that team would be unable to play in Leinster if they were to win the championship.

[Keyser Söze]

Lads some facts need to be stated here before you go any further with this topic.
Rule 3.19 (m) (i) and (ii) of the Official Guide Part 1, 2015

3.19 (m) (i) To allow Junior and Intermediate players of Clubs, including players of Clubs unable to field Junior and/or Intermediate teams, to play for Divisional or Group Senior teams

(ii)To allow Junior and Intermediate players of Clubs, including players of Clubs unable to field Junior and Intermediate teams, to play for Group Intermediate teams.
Arrangements shall be subject to annual review by the County Committee.
Players by so playing in these Divisional or Group teams shall not lose their Championship status.

As you can see from the above a player from a Junior or Intermediate club can play with a Senior club (inside or outside their parish) making that Senior team a group or divisional team which will require a name change (such as Gaels etc) and that team would be unable to play in Leinster if they were to win the championship.

One very important fact you ommitted is that any such proposed affiliation is subject to County Board/County Committee approval!

[Pablo Escobar]

There used to be more of these affiliations, Annawood was one, Arles/Kileen played with Killeshin and Barrowhouse as a Gaels team when Kileen were Intermediate , Ballyroan Gaels prob last and only team to win a Senior championship? After Ballyroan Gaels won the championship has there been a combination team involved?.

[Keyser Söze]

Tinnahinch, Ballinakill Gaels, Castletown Gaels, St. Kierans, Rosenallis/Mountmellick/Ballyfin hurled senior as a combined team at some point in the 1990s.

[Laoischat]

Have to agree, that the move for Slieve Bloom is not to accomodate those who want to play football in Slieve Bloom but the pursuit of one very skillful player.

Slieve Bloom were interested in getting involved in Ballyfin Football, as they had been at juvenile levels previously, but this was a non-runner due to Ballyfin's hurling commitments.

Reportedly 8/9 players going to Emo from Slieve Bloom, all but confirmed is the word inside Emo & Slieve Bloom