Covid and the unusual championship structures and timings have given us plenty to think about; an opportunity to analyse what we thought we know about Gaelic football.
Some of the ideas and theories that have crossed my mind this week.
1. It's more appealing for players in less successful counties, to commit fully to Gaelic Games when there's a shorter season, and your club mates aren't torturing you to concentrate on club football instead.
2. It's more appealing for players in less successful counties, to commit fully to Gaelic Games, when there is no unnecessary stay of execution through the back door. Give it all, and if you win, there's only 16 counties left. Lose and you get your life back.
When you combine 1 and 2, weaker counties immediately improve from the talent available to them, and close the gap on the stronger counties.
3. The counties who have risen from outsiders to being able to compete with the big teams (Cavan, Tipp), do not play an overcomplicated defensive game plan, nor do they focus on the unpleasant side of the game, nor do they kill the clock on the halfway line for minutes at a time.
4. The team that remains most stuck in the mire is Derry, who have a manager that proudly sticks to over complicated game plans, revels in the unpleasant side of the game, and demands clock killing where possible. This is not a coincidence.
5. Which can be seen when you review the tactics of the teams who underachieved most this season: Tyrone, Monaghan, Kerry and Cork. The last two in particular seemed to have lost all love for the game. It must be horrible to train to play anti-football.
6. Never ever underestimate the importance of ball winners, especially those who always use that ability to drive forward instead of simply "retaining possession". Gearoid McKiernan and Thomas Galligan, Colm O'Riordan, Conor Sweeney. The players of the weekend, once again. They're all cut from the same cloth as Aidan O Shea and Michael Murphy.
7. When you gain a free inside the opposition half, it provides a ball player with an unchallenged opportunity to pick out a pass to an attacking teammate, who really only has to time his run correctly. Watch Dublin, Mayo, Cavan and Tipp doing this over the past fortnight. Contrast it with Cork and Tyrone, who kick almost every last free backwards, eschewing that advantage in order to "retain possession". No surprises which method is more profitable.
8. Coaching, video analysis, tactical awareness, are all secondary factors in success. The basic simple reality of playing Dublin is that their players never drop a pass, almost never lose their balance on the ball, and almost never kick short when aiming for a score. They don't make the simple mistakes that haunt every other team in Ireland. You can't capitalise on mistakes that don't happen. So the only way to get the ball back off them is to win it off them. Which is why only Kerry and Mayo in the past decade have been able to give them a game, because they man up and go toe to toe across the field, and make it 15 individual battles.
9. You can spend months in the gym in your early 20s, big you usually still won't be competent winter footballer until you naturally tighten up in your mid to late 20s.
10. Ciaran Kilkenny might well be the most complete footballer in Ireland, now he's not so obsessed with "retaining possession".
11. Last but not least. This one is neither an idea nor a theory. It's the basic f**king truth. The forward mark was always going to be a shambles, a shit show, as nobody in the history of our game has ever actually thought "he really deserved an unchallenged kick for a point" after someone catches a ball. And now it's happening, it's coarse, it's ugly, it revolting. Get rid of it.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 22, 2020, 07:32:08 PM
Covid and the unusual championship structures and timings have given us plenty to think about; an opportunity to analyse what we thought we know about Gaelic football.
Some of the ideas and theories that have crossed my mind this week.
1. It's more appealing for players in less successful counties, to commit fully to Gaelic Games when there's a shorter season, and your club mates aren't torturing you to concentrate on club football instead.
2. It's more appealing for players in less successful counties, to commit fully to Gaelic Games, when there is no unnecessary stay of execution through the back door. Give it all, and if you win, there's only 16 counties left. Lose and you get your life back.
When you combine 1 and 2, weaker counties immediately improve from the talent available to them, and close the gap on the stronger counties.
3. The counties who have risen from outsiders to being able to compete with the big teams (Cavan, Tipp), do not play an overcomplicated defensive game plan, nor do they focus on the unpleasant side of the game, nor do they kill the clock on the halfway line for minutes at a time.
4. The team that remains most stuck in the mire is Derry, who have a manager that proudly sticks to over complicated game plans, revels in the unpleasant side of the game, and demands clock killing where possible. This is not a coincidence.
5. Which can be seen when you review the tactics of the teams who underachieved most this season: Tyrone, Monaghan, Kerry and Cork. The last two in particular seemed to have lost all love for the game. It must be horrible to train to play anti-football.
6. Never ever underestimate the importance of ball winners, especially those who always use that ability to drive forward instead of simply "retaining possession". Gearoid McKiernan and Thomas Galligan, Colm O'Riordan, Conor Sweeney. The players of the weekend, once again. They're all cut from the same cloth as Aidan O Shea and Michael Murphy.
7. When you gain a free inside the opposition half, it provides a ball player with an unchallenged opportunity to pick out a pass to an attacking teammate, who really only has to time his run correctly. Watch Dublin, Mayo, Cavan and Tipp doing this over the past fortnight. Contrast it with Cork and Tyrone, who kick almost every last free backwards, eschewing that advantage in order to "retain possession". No surprises which method is more profitable.
8. Coaching, video analysis, tactical awareness, are all secondary factors in success. The basic simple reality of playing Dublin is that their players never drop a pass, almost never lose their balance on the ball, and almost never kick short when aiming for a score. They don't make the simple mistakes that haunt every other team in Ireland. You can't capitalise on mistakes that don't happen. So the only way to get the ball back off them is to win it off them. Which is why only Kerry and Mayo in the past decade have been able to give them a game, because they man up and go toe to toe across the field, and make it 15 individual battles.
9. You can spend months in the gym in your early 20s, big you usually still won't be competent winter footballer until you naturally tighten up in your mid to late 20s.
10. Ciaran Kilkenny might well be the most complete footballer in Ireland, now he's not so obsessed with "retaining possession".
11. Last but not least. This one is neither an idea nor a theory. It's the basic f**king truth. The forward mark was always going to be a shambles, a shit show, as nobody in the history of our game has ever actually thought "he really deserved an unchallenged kick for a point" after someone catches a ball. And now it's happening, it's coarse, it's ugly, it revolting. Get rid of it.
Would agree with a lot of that.
But the GAA won't retain any of the positive aspects this Championship has thrown up.
Not your blog, mate.
But seriously, couldn't agree more with #11. The forward mark is an abomination.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 22, 2020, 07:32:08 PM
3. The counties who have risen from outsiders to being able to compete with the big teams (Cavan, Tipp), do not play an overcomplicated defensive game plan, nor do they focus on the unpleasant side of the game, nor do they kill the clock on the halfway line for minutes at a time.
Cavan did kill time out around the middle quite a bit during the 2nd half so lets not kid ourselves they're a revolutionary change from the other teams. They're a big lumbering team very well suited to winter football.
Dead right about the advanced mark. Has had zero impact on gaelic football. Teams are still playing exactly the same way they always did.
Also the black card twice threatened to make an absolute f**k of the match tonight. Needs serious looking at. The take home message from tonight's match is that nearly blinding a man is fine but colliding with a man off the ball is an immediate and irrefutable 10 mins on the sideline.
Provincial titles became valued again, as that was the only way to progress in 2020.
Other years, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan could regroup in the back door. Provincial winners deserve an AI semi final spot, and one win from an AI final.
I'm glad we've had 2 underdog winners this year, as it shows what can be achieved in a straight knockout championship. But next year, it will be back to the same aul bollix.
No overseas travel has helped on the previous commitment issues for many counties. Cavans win was built on a good defensive game plan. 0-12 conceded today would be less but for Cassidy giving Donegal soft frees and compared to last year's Ulster final 1-24 conceded.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 22, 2020, 07:32:08 PM
4. The team that remains most stuck in the mire is Derry, who have a manager that proudly sticks to over complicated game plans, revels in the unpleasant side of the game, and demands clock killing where possible. This is not a coincidence.
While I'd agree with a fair bit of what you say, Cavan definitely ran the clock a bit and if Kerry (who had a huge off day) are anti-football, then we're bucked. Though the one I'm most interested in is the point above.
Explain this over complicated game plan Derry use? News to me. Whilst we're now conceding almost 50% less on the scoreboard, we're no more defensive than pretty much every other team in the country. And clock killing, you're definitely on the wind up, Derry must be and have been for a good while the most niave team in the country when it comes to cuteness / game management.
Re clock killing.
The way I see it, every team engages in some of it. Sometimes to take a breather after a period under the cosh. Sometimes to protect a lead. Sometimes because the opposition just won't come out.
Then there's Derry (among others) who default to it throughout the game, continually rejecting the opportunity for a counter attack, in favour of risk free ball retention.
I'd agree with you that this doesn't make a team tactically switched on. But it gives their mentor(s) a feeling that they're in control, and it is their "tactic" to regulate the scoreboard. It's the least skilful way to play the game. And your lot are among the worst for it.
Kerry had an off night v Cork no doubt. But a large part of that was down to them engaging in same tactic. It was anti football.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 22, 2020, 08:21:21 PM
Provincial titles became valued again, as that was the only way to progress in 2020.
Other years, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan could regroup in the back door. Provincial winners deserve an AI semi final spot, and one win from an AI final.
I'm glad we've had 2 underdog winners this year, as it shows what can be achieved in a straight knockout championship. But next year, it will be back to the same aul bollix.
This. The fact that Kerry had no chance to regroup through the backdoor, nor Tyrone. And that's before yesterday's heroics by Tipp and Cavan. I know it's easy for me to say it with Mayo still in the championship but I would have no complaints about the structure had Galway knocked us out last weekend.
It's such a pity about the Leinster championship though.
It once again clearly exemplifies the fact that there are really only 5-6 teams in the championship that are absolute cannon fodder. There's about 18 mid tier teams that are reasonable and as Cavan and Tipperary showed can take a chance if it's given to them. And then there's the 4-6 top sides that aren't that much ahead of the chasing pack and then a mile in front of the lot is Dublin.
There's not really much difference between now and the ultra competitive level of the mid noughties or even mid 90s. The real killer is Dublins dominance over the game not the perceived and media promoted view that the smaller counties are the problem.
Commitment levels are so high though that smaller counties with less chance of winning have less incentive etc so the smaller counties are getting worse I think. In general though I would tend to agree with you.
Quote from: trileacman on November 23, 2020, 11:28:44 AM
It once again clearly exemplifies the fact that there are really only 5-6 teams in the championship that are absolute cannon fodder. There's about 18 mid tier teams that are reasonable and as Cavan and Tipperary showed can take a chance if it's given to them. And then there's the 4-6 top sides that aren't that much ahead of the chasing pack and then a mile in front of the lot is Dublin.
There's not really much difference between now and the ultra competitive level of the mid noughties or even mid 90s. The real killer is Dublins dominance over the game not the perceived and media promoted view that the smaller counties are the problem.
The organs are in good shape. The only problem is the cancer.
Quote from: trileacman on November 23, 2020, 11:28:44 AM
It once again clearly exemplifies the fact that there are really only 5-6 teams in the championship that are absolute cannon fodder. There's about 18 mid tier teams that are reasonable and as Cavan and Tipperary showed can take a chance if it's given to them. And then there's the 4-6 top sides that aren't that much ahead of the chasing pack and then a mile in front of the lot is Dublin.
There's not really much difference between now and the ultra competitive level of the mid noughties or even mid 90s. The real killer is Dublins dominance over the game not the perceived and media promoted view that the smaller counties are the problem.
What it proves is that the qualifier system makes the bigcounties stronger and the weaker counties look weaker and can't compete.
Would Cork beat Kerry if they met later on in a QF/SF? Unlikely. Would Tipp be the last Munster county left if they won the title last year? Unlikely. Would Donegal be bothered losing yesterday if they could still be in the hunt for Sam. No.
Given 3 or 4 chances, big teams usually make it through. One off wins for the likes of Cavan and Tipp become meaningless as they'd need to replicate it Week in week out. And with limited squads or resources, it's unlikely. Knockout games is the only game in town.
It's such a pity Dublin are way ahead of the rest. Kildare/Meath left alongside Cavan, Tipp and Mayo for Sam. The end of a long famine for one of those four would be absolutely brilliant.
I've always advocated an open draw 32 county championship. This year proves what a great product we could have, year in year out.
That would mean no Provincial Finals, no days like yesterday for Cavan and Tipp.
No 2013 for Monaghan, no 2017/19 for us, no 2007 for Sligo etc.
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2020, 01:17:53 PM
That would mean no Provincial Finals, no days like yesterday for Cavan and Tipp.
No 2013 for Monaghan, no 2017/19 for us, no 2007 for Sligo etc.
An open draw, with only one prize which is won every year bu Dublin, sounds like the end of county football.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 23, 2020, 01:36:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2020, 01:17:53 PM
That would mean no Provincial Finals, no days like yesterday for Cavan and Tipp.
No 2013 for Monaghan, no 2017/19 for us, no 2007 for Sligo etc.
An open draw, with only one prize which is won every year bu Dublin, sounds like the end of county football.
If Dublin had to travel away to Kerry/Tyrone/Donegal/Mayo that might not be the case. Having a backdoor system only favours the stronger teams. The knockout has been a breath of fresh air.
I get were you are coming from with the provincials but its inherently unfair in its current form anyhow.
Could there not be a standalone provincial championship?
Good opening post and you make a lot of very valid points. Whilst this whole Covid pandemic has been a very interesting experiment in human behaviour itself, this also applies equally to the GAA.
When it is all over I hope that the organisation can take time to reevaluate it's overall structures and fixtures. If this doesn't happen in the next 12 months then when will it ever happen. Root and branch reform is needed which requires strong and creative leadership.
Yesterday was one of the best days for intercounty gaelic football for a generation and it was probably the highlight of the Irish sporting year in general. However in a normal year this would not have been possible, it was only due to the prevailing exceptional circumstances. Exacerbating the advantages already held by the elite few does not serve the intercounty game well overall, it might improve the financial coffers but it has only turned people off intercounty football and players in weaker counties were getting increasingly disillusioned. The Super 8s were the straw that broke the camels back and this Covid pandemic has only served to highlight this.
I honestly believe that the GAA, given their history on matters like this, are well capable of responding to the weekends results by determining that the problem is provincial football and it needs to be scrapped.
President: "Cavan and Tipp produce two of most incredible GAA moments of recent memory, what should we do?"
Secretary General: "ensure it never happens again"
Quote from: thewobbler on November 22, 2020, 07:32:08 PM
Covid and the unusual championship structures and timings have given us plenty to think about; an opportunity to analyse what we thought we know about Gaelic football.
Some of the ideas and theories that have crossed my mind this week.
1. It's more appealing for players in less successful counties, to commit fully to Gaelic Games when there's a shorter season, and your club mates aren't torturing you to concentrate on club football instead.
2. It's more appealing for players in less successful counties, to commit fully to Gaelic Games, when there is no unnecessary stay of execution through the back door. Give it all, and if you win, there's only 16 counties left. Lose and you get your life back.
When you combine 1 and 2, weaker counties immediately improve from the talent available to them, and close the gap on the stronger counties.
3. The counties who have risen from outsiders to being able to compete with the big teams (Cavan, Tipp), do not play an overcomplicated defensive game plan, nor do they focus on the unpleasant side of the game, nor do they kill the clock on the halfway line for minutes at a time.
4. The team that remains most stuck in the mire is Derry, who have a manager that proudly sticks to over complicated game plans, revels in the unpleasant side of the game, and demands clock killing where possible. This is not a coincidence.
5. Which can be seen when you review the tactics of the teams who underachieved most this season: Tyrone, Monaghan, Kerry and Cork. The last two in particular seemed to have lost all love for the game. It must be horrible to train to play anti-football.
6. Never ever underestimate the importance of ball winners, especially those who always use that ability to drive forward instead of simply "retaining possession". Gearoid McKiernan and Thomas Galligan, Colm O'Riordan, Conor Sweeney. The players of the weekend, once again. They're all cut from the same cloth as Aidan O Shea and Michael Murphy.
7. When you gain a free inside the opposition half, it provides a ball player with an unchallenged opportunity to pick out a pass to an attacking teammate, who really only has to time his run correctly. Watch Dublin, Mayo, Cavan and Tipp doing this over the past fortnight. Contrast it with Cork and Tyrone, who kick almost every last free backwards, eschewing that advantage in order to "retain possession". No surprises which method is more profitable.
8. Coaching, video analysis, tactical awareness, are all secondary factors in success. The basic simple reality of playing Dublin is that their players never drop a pass, almost never lose their balance on the ball, and almost never kick short when aiming for a score. They don't make the simple mistakes that haunt every other team in Ireland. You can't capitalise on mistakes that don't happen. So the only way to get the ball back off them is to win it off them. Which is why only Kerry and Mayo in the past decade have been able to give them a game, because they man up and go toe to toe across the field, and make it 15 individual battles.
9. You can spend months in the gym in your early 20s, big you usually still won't be competent winter footballer until you naturally tighten up in your mid to late 20s.
10. Ciaran Kilkenny might well be the most complete footballer in Ireland, now he's not so obsessed with "retaining possession".
11. Last but not least. This one is neither an idea nor a theory. It's the basic f**king truth. The forward mark was always going to be a shambles, a shit show, as nobody in the history of our game has ever actually thought "he really deserved an unchallenged kick for a point" after someone catches a ball. And now it's happening, it's coarse, it's ugly, it revolting. Get rid of it.
I've watched every Derry game this season and they don't really play any differently to the other teams they have faced.
Quote from: grounded on November 23, 2020, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 23, 2020, 01:36:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2020, 01:17:53 PM
That would mean no Provincial Finals, no days like yesterday for Cavan and Tipp.
No 2013 for Monaghan, no 2017/19 for us, no 2007 for Sligo etc.
An open draw, with only one prize which is won every year bu Dublin, sounds like the end of county football.
If Dublin had to travel away to Kerry/Tyrone/Donegal/Mayo that might not be the case. Having a backdoor system only favours the stronger teams. The knockout has been a breath of fresh air.
I get were you are coming from with the provincials but its inherently unfair in its current form anyhow.
Could there not be a standalone provincial championship?
And then have an AI Championship?
Then you'd have to let those knocked out early in the Provincials play each other in the first round or 2 with teams who get to Provincial Finals entering later.
Ahem!!
Excellent and interesting opening post wobbler.
1 and 2. Agree with easier for players in less successful counties to commit fully in a shorter season. (Also it was easier for players in every county to fully commit to their club this season they way things went).
I would also add that Working From Home has made it easier to fully commit for many who would have had the horrendous travelling that's the norm for many county teams. While Covid will hopefully be gone soon enough, this benefit of more WFH and more use of zoom will hopefully decrease the travel requirements for many going forward.
Don't agree in the slightest that Kerry are anti-football. They played awful in one game in horrendous conditions against a team who played better than they were expecting. It was a freak result.
Agree totally with "6. Never ever underestimate the importance of ball winners, especially those who always use that ability to drive forward instead of simply "retaining possession". Gearoid McKiernan and Thomas Galligan, Colm O'Riordan, Conor Sweeney. The players of the weekend, once again. They're all cut from the same cloth as Aidan O Shea and Michael Murphy."
The midfield mark has helped a lot for these players.
Agree also with "7. When you gain a free inside the opposition half, it provides a ball player with an unchallenged opportunity to pick out a pass to an attacking teammate, who really only has to time his run correctly. Watch Dublin, Mayo, Cavan and Tipp doing this over the past fortnight. Contrast it with Cork and Tyrone, who kick almost every last free backwards, eschewing that advantage in order to "retain possession". No surprises which method is more profitable."
But I wonder is the forward mark encouraging this?
There were a couple of great forward marks taken by Cavan and Tipp players that I think justified the rule and the reward was well deserved. But then Paddy Small got at least one for the Dubs which was a simple catch from a short enough pass that no way deserved a free shot. I wouldn't be sad if it was eliminated (Dubs relatively small full back line has never really been exposed by it, but I still fear that one day it will happen!), but I think it could be amended to be a good rule, e.g. ball must travel a much further distance such as kick from outside 45m and catch inside 21m line.
10. Ciaran Kilkenny might well be the most complete footballer in Ireland, now he's not so obsessed with "retaining possession".
Good call. I found him so frustrating a few years ago and he'd get heaps of praise from "experts" for having 50 possessions even though most went backwards! He also used to shoot short into the keeper's hands regularly. He's different gravy the last year or two.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 23, 2020, 01:36:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2020, 01:17:53 PM
That would mean no Provincial Finals, no days like yesterday for Cavan and Tipp.
No 2013 for Monaghan, no 2017/19 for us, no 2007 for Sligo etc.
An open draw, with only one prize which is won every year bu Dublin, sounds like the end of county football.
It's already drawing it's last breath anyway.
Quote from: grounded on November 23, 2020, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 23, 2020, 01:36:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2020, 01:17:53 PM
That would mean no Provincial Finals, no days like yesterday for Cavan and Tipp.
No 2013 for Monaghan, no 2017/19 for us, no 2007 for Sligo etc.
An open draw, with only one prize which is won every year bu Dublin, sounds like the end of county football.
If Dublin had to travel away to Kerry/Tyrone/Donegal/Mayo that might not be the case. Having a backdoor system only favours the stronger teams. The knockout has been a breath of fresh air.
I get were you are coming from with the provincials but its inherently unfair in its current form anyhow.
Could there not be a standalone provincial championship?
Yes, Dublin heading to the likes of omagh or Castlebar, heavy pitch, let's see how they fair. In a year with no crowds, they won't even play outside of the billiard table that is Croke Park!
Why would 11 Leinster teams (one third of the total) even bother competing if you had s provincial only championship? Open draw 32 counties. One chance. It needs to happen for the sake of the future of the county championship
No!