Orange Order Museum in Belfast and Loughgall

[Rossfan]

Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.

[michaelg]

Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.

What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?

[Armamike]

There's no real problem here needing a solution.  If the Orange Order have a museum, don't panic, there's lots of different ways of giving tourists a taste of both cultures, narratives or whatever.

[Rossfan]

Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.

What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?

I'm not very familiar with any of those. 
Any words of hate or bigotry in them?
Mind you the Provo IRA didn't just appear in a vacuum.
1921 -1969 might have something to do with them?

[michaelg]

Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.

What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?

I'm not very familiar with any of those. 
Any words of hate or bigotry in them?
Mind you the Provo IRA didn't just appear in a vacuum.
1921 -1969 might have something to do with them?

Listen, we could go round in circles here.  I was simply making the point that hatred and bigotry is not a one way street.  If you can't accept that, then fair enough. 

[Owen Brannigan]

Need to remember that the Orange Order and the orange culture has a very small percentage of followers in the whole unionist/loyalist population.  No figures are published on number of members but turnout for 12th marchers would indicate that the number of members is actually in tens of thousands at the most.  Plenty of hangers on of all types, those who enjoy the parades, those who support the ethos and those who are present only for business purposes (although many members are there for business reasons). So, Orange culture is not the same as 'protestant' culture, whatever that might be.

There is a similar reflection of other organisations in the Catholic community, a few thousand AOH members?, Less than 30% of Catholics will have GAA membership?, less than 40% of Catholics are church goers?, etc.

It is very difficult to define culture and attribute it to whole sections of the population.  At best cultural organisations are more easily defined and then look at their membership and support in the population.

[AZOffaly]

To be fair michael, you weren't *just* doing that. I'd have no problem accepting that there is hatred and bigotry on both sides, although I would say the bigotry especially is far greater on one side.

But you said something along the lines that going to a Trad music session would expose them to 'bigotry'. I don't know many trad sessions that would be a hive of bigotry, and I also don't know that many rebel songs that would talk about being up to their neck in orange blood or the like. They certainly wouldn't be a common feature in any Trad/Folk session I know of.

You may hear 'Grace', or the 'Bold Fenian Men' or other songs about the struggle for independence, but if that equates to hatred and bigotry then you have different standards than I do

PS. The wolfe Tones even sang the 'Sash'.

[The Gs Man]

As we don't do hate and bigotry very well I suggest you bring people to a Traditional  music session.

Yes, so that they can hear some lovely rebel songs being played.  No fan of the OO, but it always grates when Nationalists / Republicans claim hate and bigotry is a one way street.

What sessions are you going to Michael?

Must be in the Felons or somewhere.

[T Fearon]

I am and always have been confused by Orangeism.I accept that probably the vast majority of its members aren't filled with hatred for Catholics.But they don't seem to realise that ridiculing catholic beliefs (and in that they are joined by many people on this Board) is deeply offensive to catholic people who are serious about their beliefs.Likewise if they are simply a religious organisation why are their utterances invariably political?

I am not offended by Orange parades,and any Orange Order members I have dealt with in ordinary every day life have treated me with the utmost courtesy and friendliness (I concluded a business deal with one the other night where I got everything I asked for immediately!).

I do not Iike some of the bands they engage for marches (though some of the bands at Republican marches wouldn't ever be mistaken for classical music artistes either).I would never consider going to watch a March or Band Parade of any hue,be it Orange or Republican.

Is it the siege mentality that makes people come together in some sort of brotherhood commonality and parade to demonstrate "We are still here" etc.

I am even more confused.

[Rossfan]

Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.

What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?

I'm not very familiar with any of those. 
Any words of hate or bigotry in them?
Mind you the Provo IRA didn't just appear in a vacuum.
1921 -1969 might have something to do with them?

Listen, we could go round in circles here.  I was simply making the point that hatred and bigotry is not a one way street.  If you can't accept that, then fair enough.

I'm quite sure some of "ours" can have hate and bigotry just as some of "yours".
However the Orange type is in your face and in public all the time.
As for culturall things - compare the All Ireland Fleadh to 12th July.

[vallankumous]

Does anyone know if there is an native Irish equivalent (equal and opposite) to the Orange Order museum?

http://www.orangeheritage.co.uk/museum-schomberg-house/

some might argue the OO is an Irish institution

[michaelg]

To be fair michael, you weren't *just* doing that. I'd have no problem accepting that there is hatred and bigotry on both sides, although I would say the bigotry especially is far greater on one side.

But you said something along the lines that going to a Trad music session would expose them to 'bigotry'. I don't know many trad sessions that would be a hive of bigotry, and I also don't know that many rebel songs that would talk about being up to their neck in orange blood or the like. They certainly wouldn't be a common feature in any Trad/Folk session I know of.

You may hear 'Grace', or the 'Bold Fenian Men' or other songs about the struggle for independence, but if that equates to hatred and bigotry then you have different standards than I do

PS. The wolfe Tones even sang the 'Sash'.

I only used the trad music session as an example as this was brought up in the same post by the poster who claimed that "we don't do hatred and bigotry". 
I appreciate that most trad sessions are not "a hive of bigotry", but in some instances they can be a bit threatening and unwelcoming. By way of example, I was down south working a few years ago and we were in a pub when a session was in full flow.  Given our "Nordie" accents and the fact that we didn't know the words to most of the songs, we soon had a  number of songs sung at us / for our benefit.  Wasn't terribly pleasant.

[michaelg]

Songs praising freedom from oppression are hardly hatred and bigotry.

What about songs glorifying the Provisional IRA?

I'm not very familiar with any of those. 
Any words of hate or bigotry in them?
Mind you the Provo IRA didn't just appear in a vacuum.
1921 -1969 might have something to do with them?

Listen, we could go round in circles here.  I was simply making the point that hatred and bigotry is not a one way street.  If you can't accept that, then fair enough.

I'm quite sure some of "ours" can have hate and bigotry just as some of "yours".
However the Orange type is in your face and in public all the time.
As for culturall things - compare the All Ireland Fleadh to 12th July.

No fan of the OO and don't go to parades. 

[Rossfan]

I said "we don't do hate and bigotry very well".
Never claimed we don't do it at all.

[michaelg]

I said "we don't do hate and bigotry very well".
Never claimed we don't do it at all.

Fair enough - Some manage okay!