One of the saddest things this year was the murder of this young girl!
A 13 year old boy has been charged with her murder.
13 years of age!!!!
Just read up on this. . . horrific!!!! Absolutely and totally horrific how a young lad could do that to a young girl.
What possible motive is there for doing this??!!
Seen that there.. shocking stuff!
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 25, 2018, 04:42:13 PM
One of the saddest things this year was the murder of this young girl!
A 13 year old boy has been charged with her murder.
13 years of age!!!!
This really was horrific. And coupled with the Jastine Valdez murder the next week. These aren't the sorts of deaths you associate with modern Ireland. I hope it's just a terrible coincidence both happened so close together.
Quote from: Syferus on May 25, 2018, 05:10:24 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 25, 2018, 04:42:13 PM
One of the saddest things this year was the murder of this young girl!
A 13 year old boy has been charged with her murder.
13 years of age!!!!
This really was horrific. And coupled with the Jastine Valdez murder the next week. These aren't the sorts of deaths you associate with modern Ireland. I hope it's just a terrible coincidence both happened so close together.
Looks like there was a sexual crime as well. Porn usage will have to be investigated.
I'd say it's been pretty obvious from day 1 what happened? The other lad will probably face a different charge in time. This will be one of the most shocking crimes of all time in Ireland as it goes on I'd say.
Terrible situation.
By the way Syf how are this and the poor lady in Wicklow "not the sort of crimes you associate with modern Ireland"??
Some would say they are exactly the sort!!
Quote from: Boycey on May 25, 2018, 05:19:23 PM
I'd say it's been pretty obvious from day 1 what happened? The other lad will probably face a different charge in time. This will be one of the most shocking crimes of all time in Ireland as it goes on I'd say.
???
Ive no clue??
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:23:02 PM
Terrible situation.
By the way Syf how are this and the poor lady in Wicklow "not the sort of crimes you associate with modern Ireland"??
Some would say they are exactly the sort!!
Please tell me the last 14 year old girl who was murdered by someone younger than her, or the last time a woman was randomly abucted and strangled. Thanks.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 05:23:02 PM
Terrible situation.
By the way Syf how are this and the poor lady in Wicklow "not the sort of crimes you associate with modern Ireland"??
Some would say they are exactly the sort!!
Please tell me the last 14 year old girl who was murdered by someone younger than her, or the last time a woman was randomly abucted and strangled. Thanks.
Did you see the McArthur prog on TV last night?
Jo Jo Dullard
Seviral other women in Leinster
Larry Murphy
That early teenaged tr**p who murdered the young lad in Mountmellick because he wanted to kill someone.
I haven't the time or interest to trawl the stats but I'd estimate around 8/900 murders in this State this Century "the golden age of Syfdom".
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 07:27:32 PM
Did you see the McArthur prog on TV last night?
Jo Jo Dullard
Seviral other women in Leinster
Larry Murphy
That early teenaged tr**p who murdered the young lad in Mountmellick because he wanted to kill someone.
I haven't the time or interest to trawl the stats but I'd estimate around 8/900 murders in this State this Century "the golden age of Syfdom".
FFS Rossfan. Now there is Snapchat .
The parents of the 2 murdered women and the families of Hennessy and the accused 13 year old must be going through hell this weekend.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 25, 2018, 07:27:32 PM
Did you see the McArthur prog on TV last night?
Jo Jo Dullard
Seviral other women in Leinster
Larry Murphy
That early teenaged tr**p who murdered the young lad in Mountmellick because he wanted to kill someone.
I haven't the time or interest to trawl the stats but I'd estimate around 8/900 murders in this State this Century "the golden age of Syfdom".
You seem to have forgotten to include every single date there. Could that be because it destroys your point?
Quote from: screenexile on May 25, 2018, 04:46:54 PM
Just read up on this. . . horrific!!!! Absolutely and totally horrific how a young lad could do that to a young girl.
What possible motive is there for doing this??!!
What possible motive? I think we all know what the motive was
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 26, 2018, 11:42:55 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 25, 2018, 04:46:54 PM
Just read up on this. . . horrific!!!! Absolutely and totally horrific how a young lad could do that to a young girl.
What possible motive is there for doing this??!!
What possible motive? I think we all know what the motive was
Err, we do?
Quote from: Syferus on May 26, 2018, 11:49:42 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 26, 2018, 11:42:55 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 25, 2018, 04:46:54 PM
Just read up on this. . . horrific!!!! Absolutely and totally horrific how a young lad could do that to a young girl.
What possible motive is there for doing this??!!
What possible motive? I think we all know what the motive was
Err, we do?
The hanging muscle
Jasus folks can we at least agree to refrain from arguing with each other on this thread.
It reminds me of what happened to Jamie Bulger. How can children be so sick and demented to carry out such a crime.
Another awful murder of a young person over the weekend, that's 3 in a fortnight or so. What the feck is going on?
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-investigating-if-cameron-reilly-18-lured-to-his-death-with-phone-call-from-a-trusted-friend-36960899.html
Quote from: Boycey on May 30, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
Another awful murder of a young person over the weekend, that's 3 in a fortnight or so. What the feck is going on?
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-investigating-if-cameron-reilly-18-lured-to-his-death-with-phone-call-from-a-trusted-friend-36960899.html
Sounds like that lad got in an argument with a yob and paid a very heavy price for it.
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 11:46:14 AM
Quote from: Boycey on May 30, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
Another awful murder of a young person over the weekend, that's 3 in a fortnight or so. What the feck is going on?
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-investigating-if-cameron-reilly-18-lured-to-his-death-with-phone-call-from-a-trusted-friend-36960899.html
Sounds like that lad got in an argument with a yob and paid a very heavy price for it.
It does make you wonder though, manys the person got into an argument with a yob over the years and got a thump. Was there some copycat element this time?
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
That's the bit that prompted me to post in the first place. Did they know he was dead and just left to lie there all night? How could you even go home after something like that.
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
You sure lad? Look up the Maumtrasna murders if you want to see how selfish and cruel the Ireland of years past was.
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
You sure lad? Look up the Maumtrasna murders if you want to see how selfish and cruel the Ireland of years past was.
That was 136 years ago FFS and in Connacht.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 03:14:26 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
You sure lad? Look up the Maumtrasna murders if you want to see how selfish and cruel the Ireland of years past was.
That was 136 years ago FFS and in Connacht.
Kind of not helping yourself by pointing out how long selfishness has existed in society.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
The only arogrant one here is you.
The Dunleer and Lucian murders are societal lows..... benchmarked against any decade
Quote from: Orchard park on May 30, 2018, 04:57:24 PM
The Dunleer and Lucian murders are societal lows..... benchmarked against any decade
Why aren't you including the Valdez murder? If anything the random nature of it is even more shocking than these two cases.
I didn't include because similar shocking murders have taken place most decades. I cannot recall 2 teenagers murdered by other teenagers within a week or each other ever before
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
Syferus doesn't do background.
Galway supporters are lazy because all the data he has goes back only 5 years.
Anything bad now can be compared against something the Church did.
The current Ros management is the greatest ever because past data is irrelevant
He doesn't listen to observations either.
Re "knackers" there was less public violence than there is now. I can remember the shock when Garda Morley was murdered in the early 80s. The idea that a Garda would be killed was so hard for people to get the head around.
That's the murder he tried to pin on the IRA from a previous debate here.......
Quote from: Orchard park on May 30, 2018, 05:32:27 PM
I didn't include because similar shocking murders have taken place most decades. I cannot recall 2 teenagers murdered by other teenagers within a week or each other ever before
Smeone murdered in front of a crowd is truly shocking
I never heard of a "civilian" being killed for sport in front of people watching
Was called "Lynching" in the Southern USA.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Was called "Lynching" in the Southern USA.
Gardaí think he may have been lured to the place by someone he trusted
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
Syferus doesn't do background.
Galway supporters are lazy because all the data he has goes back only 5 years.
Anything bad now can be compared against something the Church did.
The current Ros management is the greatest ever because past data is irrelevant
He doesn't listen to observations either.
Re "knackers" there was less public violence than there is now. I can remember the shock when Garda Morley was murdered in the early 80s. The idea that a Garda would be killed was so hard for people to get the head around.
..which happened eight years after Bloody fecking Sunday..
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
Syferus doesn't do background.
Galway supporters are lazy because all the data he has goes back only 5 years.
Anything bad now can be compared against something the Church did.
The current Ros management is the greatest ever because past data is irrelevant
He doesn't listen to observations either.
Re "knackers" there was less public violence than there is now. I can remember the shock when Garda Morley was murdered in the early 80s. The idea that a Garda would be killed was so hard for people to get the head around.
..which happened eight years after Bloody fecking Sunday..
In another jurisdiction during a war.
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 08:52:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
Syferus doesn't do background.
Galway supporters are lazy because all the data he has goes back only 5 years.
Anything bad now can be compared against something the Church did.
The current Ros management is the greatest ever because past data is irrelevant
He doesn't listen to observations either.
Re "knackers" there was less public violence than there is now. I can remember the shock when Garda Morley was murdered in the early 80s. The idea that a Garda would be killed was so hard for people to get the head around.
..which happened eight years after Bloody fecking Sunday..
In another jurisdiction during a war.
A few hundred kilometres away involving republicans and officers of the law.. the only difference was that the roles were reversed.
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Was called "Lynching" in the Southern USA.
Gardaí think he may have been lured to the place by someone he trusted
I imagine he could have been lured by a stolen phone sending texts or whatsapps without that person necessarily cooperating.
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 08:58:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 08:52:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
Syferus doesn't do background.
Galway supporters are lazy because all the data he has goes back only 5 years.
Anything bad now can be compared against something the Church did.
The current Ros management is the greatest ever because past data is irrelevant
He doesn't listen to observations either.
Re "knackers" there was less public violence than there is now. I can remember the shock when Garda Morley was murdered in the early 80s. The idea that a Garda would be killed was so hard for people to get the head around.
..which happened eight years after Bloody fecking Sunday..
In another jurisdiction during a war.
A few hundred kilometres away involving republicans and officers of the law.. the only difference was that the roles were reversed.
You'd want to read up on history bucko. Bloody Sunday wasn't a shootout between "republicans and the officers of the law"
And the disrespect of "Bloody fecking Sunday" . I suppose inconvenient facts like 14 Irish people being murdered in their own City must be a nuisance to you in your Varadkar wonderland.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 11:49:17 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 08:58:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 08:52:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
Syferus doesn't do background.
Galway supporters are lazy because all the data he has goes back only 5 years.
Anything bad now can be compared against something the Church did.
The current Ros management is the greatest ever because past data is irrelevant
He doesn't listen to observations either.
Re "knackers" there was less public violence than there is now. I can remember the shock when Garda Morley was murdered in the early 80s. The idea that a Garda would be killed was so hard for people to get the head around.
..which happened eight years after Bloody fecking Sunday..
In another jurisdiction during a war.
A few hundred kilometres away involving republicans and officers of the law.. the only difference was that the roles were reversed.
You'd want to read up on history bucko. Bloody Sunday wasn't a shootout between "republicans and the officers of the law"
And the disrespect of "Bloody fecking Sunday" . I suppose inconvenient facts like 14 Irish people being murdered in their own City must be a nuisance to you in your Varadkar wonderland.
He'll have to ask his mammy about that now
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 11:49:17 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 08:58:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 08:52:28 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 30, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2018, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
If as reported the poor chap was strangled in front of onlookers......what have we turned our young people into?
There was knackers when you were a kid, and also a maniacal Church abusing children and vilifying single mothers to boot. Save us your hand wringing.
Knackers of course, and some villifying, although sticks and stones and all that. But few murders.
The arrogant insufferable Syferus believes some kind of golden age started around the time he was born.
Instead of being upset or horrified at the Dunleer case he goes off on another rant about priests abusing kids and single mothers.
Syferus doesn't do background.
Galway supporters are lazy because all the data he has goes back only 5 years.
Anything bad now can be compared against something the Church did.
The current Ros management is the greatest ever because past data is irrelevant
He doesn't listen to observations either.
Re "knackers" there was less public violence than there is now. I can remember the shock when Garda Morley was murdered in the early 80s. The idea that a Garda would be killed was so hard for people to get the head around.
..which happened eight years after Bloody fecking Sunday..
In another jurisdiction during a war.
A few hundred kilometres away involving republicans and officers of the law.. the only difference was that the roles were reversed.
You'd want to read up on history bucko. Bloody Sunday wasn't a shootout between "republicans and the officers of the law"
And the disrespect of "Bloody fecking Sunday" . I suppose inconvenient facts like 14 Irish people being murdered in their own City must be a nuisance to you in your Varadkar wonderland.
Your attempts at feigned outrage lost their lustre years ago when it became clear how petty and myopic you are.
Lads when are ye going to realise that Syf has taken over from TF on the board.
That old saying about getting into an argument with an eejit is so apt here.
Quote from: NAG1 on June 01, 2018, 01:54:55 PM
Lads when are ye going to realise that Syf has taken over from TF on the board.
That old saying about getting into an argument with an eejit is so apt here.
You literally resurrected an old thread to say this. Do you not realise how triggered you are?
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on June 01, 2018, 01:54:55 PM
Lads when are ye going to realise that Syf has taken over from TF on the board.
That old saying about getting into an argument with an eejit is so apt here.
You literally resurrected an old thread to say this. Do you not realise how triggered you are?
Syferus when you look at how many people argue with you and criticise what you say does it not make you think that you maybe are a Connacht version of the boul Tony?
Quote from: Boycey on May 25, 2018, 05:19:23 PM
I'd say it's been pretty obvious from day 1 what happened? The other lad will probably face a different charge in time. This will be one of the most shocking crimes of all time in Ireland as it goes on I'd say.
I actually don't remember this post but what I heard and read about this case on the opening day of the trial today is absolutely sickening...
Horrific......... 14 year olds.....
Quote from: Rossfan on April 30, 2019, 09:14:31 PM
Horrific......... 14 year olds.....
They were 13 when the allegedly killed her. Absolutely sickening to think kids did this.
Quote from: Boycey on April 30, 2019, 08:46:50 PM
Quote from: Boycey on May 25, 2018, 05:19:23 PM
I'd say it's been pretty obvious from day 1 what happened? The other lad will probably face a different charge in time. This will be one of the most shocking crimes of all time in Ireland as it goes on I'd say.
I actually don't remember this post but what I heard and read about this case on the opening day of the trial today is absolutely sickening...
I had to turn the radio off, so disturbing.
My reaction is similar. My heart was broken listeningto the radio to be honest.
This story is so awful
The incessant bullying . The comments on social media
And then the murder
There will probably be some dreadful revelations.
There was something similar in the courts recently involving a 15 year old . Murderous misogyny
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/boy-15-tried-to-murder-woman-he-met-on-social-media-1.3837876
« A 15-year-old boy tried to murder a woman he met on social media after suggesting they take a selfie at the water's edge in Dún Laoghaire, where he knocked her unconscious and slashed her neck.
Gardaí later found a book of drawings in his bedroom, containing a sketch of someone being cut up with a knife. The words, 'serial killer', had been written on another page.
The boy, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was before the Central Criminal Court on Monday.
He had pleaded guilty to attempting to murder Stephanie Ng on December 23rd 2017 at the seafront, Queen's Road, Dún Laoghaire.
The now 17-year-old was accompanied to court by his parents, who sat beside him in the court.
Detective Garda Daniel Treacy told Paul Burns SC, prosecuting, that the accused had met his victim on the Whisper social media app.
He was 15 at the time, and his victim was 25. However, he told her he was 19. They exchanged ordinary photographs to confirm they were real people.
He asked Ms Ng to participate in a threesome but she declined, and made it clear that she was not interested in any form of a sexual relationship.
He disclosed his name and certain family details and that he was attending psychiatrists for therapy, due to him having depression, suicidal and intrusive thoughts.
He told her that he could not commit to girls.
"It's like being a psychopath. You just don't feel it," he wrote, saying he was 'feeling it for the first time'.
They arranged to meet in Dún Laoghaire on December 23rd, with him saying he would bring her to a secret spot.
She jokingly said it sounded like he was going to murder her. He replied that he did not think he could murder her.
They met at the entrance to Dún Laoghaire Shopping Centre shortly after noon that day and walked to York Road, where the accused asked her to go into a vacant house. She declined.
It was boarded up, so he suggested another abandoned house. She again said no.
They walked to the promenade and he suggested going into the old disused baths. She declined.
At his request, they went down to the water's edge to take a selfie," Det Garda Treacy told the court.
"She was facing out to sea when he grabbed her from behind in a neck lock. He then moved in front of her and started choking her with his right hand while brandishing a knife in his left hand."
She raised her hand to defend herself and suffered significant lacerations as a result. He told her to stop screaming in a calm and controlled voice.
She passed out due to the stranglehold. When she came around, she was lying on the ground near the water's edge, her hand was bleeding and there was blood around her head. Her clothes had been cut.
She managed to get to her feet and take a few steps but collapsed. Walkers noticed her and came to her assistance.
Ms Ng was taken to to St Vincent's Hospital, where she was found to have a 10cm-deep midline neck laceration, which penetrated her trachea.
She tried to walk towards the road, only to collapse again after a few steps. It was enough to make her visible to a male passer-by. By this stage she had lost four litres of blood; the man would later tell gardaí he was sure she was going to die.
She tried to tell her rescuer what happened but could not get the words out. She put her hand to her throat and realised it had been cut from one side to the other. »
I live very close to where Anna was discovered. I think when people think of Lucan, they think of Adamstown and miles upon miles of boxy estates. Where she died is on the Clonee Road between Lucan and Westmanstown - there is St. Catherine's Park and loads of farmland - very isolated at night.
On the road where I live, there would be herds of kids and toddlers, always out playing. The day after she disappeared every child was accompanied by a parent. The search was ongoing but even at that early stage, most agreed that she had been abducted, and most thought she was already dead - perhaps another JoJo Dollard, Fiona Pender or Deirdre Jacob, just vanishing away up a motorway or from an estate. Terrible to say, but that is an easier thing to compute than to face what actually happened when she was found, literally just yards from where we all stood.
We all know that there are wolves in the wood, that you hurry after dark, that there are creatures found on the roads and byways that are best not met. But what happens when the beast comes home, takes off his mask and is revealed as a 13 year old child, doing his homework, playing X Box, falling asleep under Man U or Liverpool posters?
This trial will be absolutely horrific not just because of the nature of the crimes, but of the banality of the killers. They will look and behave in almost every way as our own sons, yet they ended up in dark farmhouse in a pool of a young girl's blood.
Almost as horrific will the revelations of just how cruelly this girl was treated in general. I don't like setting up straw men - I've seen too many moral panics revealed over the years to be nothing, but I don't think it can denied that social media has changed how we communicate with each other. Whilst bullying has always existed, the ease of access to victims and the (perceived) anonymity of the bully has surely changed and amplified how this abuse is felt.
My little fella is 7. He is asking me for a phone already. He can continue asking for as long as he likes.
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 01, 2019, 10:55:23 AM
I live very close to where Anna was discovered. I think when people think of Lucan, they think of Adamstown and miles upon miles of boxy estates. Where she died is on the Clonee Road between Lucan and Westmanstown - there is St. Catherine's Park and loads of farmland - very isolated at night.
On the road where I live, there would be herds of kids and toddlers, always out playing. The day after she disappeared every child was accompanied by a parent. The search was ongoing but even at that early stage, most agreed that she had been abducted, and most thought she was already dead - perhaps another JoJo Dollard, Fiona Pender or Deirdre Jacob, just vanishing away up a motorway or from an estate. Terrible to say, but that is an easier thing to compute than to face what actually happened when she was found, literally just yards from where we all stood.
We all know that there are wolves in the wood, that you hurry after dark, that there are creatures found on the roads and byways that are best not met. But what happens when the beast comes home, takes off his mask and is revealed as a 13 year old child, doing his homework, playing X Box, falling asleep under Man U or Liverpool posters?
This trial will be absolutely horrific not just because of the nature of the crimes, but of the banality of the killers. They will look and behave in almost every way as our own sons, yet they ended up in dark farmhouse in a pool of a young girl's blood.
Almost as horrific will the revelations of just how cruelly this girl was treated in general. I don't like setting up straw men - I've seen too many moral panics revealed over the years to be nothing, but I don't think it can denied that social media has changed how we communicate with each other. Whilst bullying has always existed, the ease of access to victims and the (perceived) anonymity of the bully has surely changed and amplified how this abuse is felt.
My little fella is 7. He is asking me for a phone already. He can continue asking for as long as he likes.
+1, well put Easytiger.
Cases like this are so difficult to deal with. This is our Jamie Bulger moment in many ways. I have sat with killers of different ilks, 1 punch people who were 'unlucky', people who did it for a 'cause', people who did it in a drink/drugs fueled frenzy, people who didn't have the capacity to know what really was going on(and trust me there are plenty of them out there), others were just cold, heartless bastards. I have a 12 year old son, the thought that he or his peers could do something like this is very, very scary. He wouldn't but could someone he is in school with do it? I know I regularly get into rows with people over this type of stuff but the reality is that the society that people are brought up in, the background and family circumstances, form the people that commit the crimes. This is going to be a heart wrenching case and no one will walk away from it feeling that they have achieved a 'victory' no matter what the result.
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 01, 2019, 10:55:23 AM
I live very close to where Anna was discovered. I think when people think of Lucan, they think of Adamstown and miles upon miles of boxy estates. Where she died is on the Clonee Road between Lucan and Westmanstown - there is St. Catherine's Park and loads of farmland - very isolated at night.
On the road where I live, there would be herds of kids and toddlers, always out playing. The day after she disappeared every child was accompanied by a parent. The search was ongoing but even at that early stage, most agreed that she had been abducted, and most thought she was already dead - perhaps another JoJo Dollard, Fiona Pender or Deirdre Jacob, just vanishing away up a motorway or from an estate. Terrible to say, but that is an easier thing to compute than to face what actually happened when she was found, literally just yards from where we all stood.
We all know that there are wolves in the wood, that you hurry after dark, that there are creatures found on the roads and byways that are best not met. But what happens when the beast comes home, takes off his mask and is revealed as a 13 year old child, doing his homework, playing X Box, falling asleep under Man U or Liverpool posters?
This trial will be absolutely horrific not just because of the nature of the crimes, but of the banality of the killers. They will look and behave in almost every way as our own sons, yet they ended up in dark farmhouse in a pool of a young girl's blood.
Almost as horrific will the revelations of just how cruelly this girl was treated in general. I don't like setting up straw men - I've seen too many moral panics revealed over the years to be nothing, but I don't think it can denied that social media has changed how we communicate with each other. Whilst bullying has always existed, the ease of access to victims and the (perceived) anonymity of the bully has surely changed and amplified how this abuse is felt.
My little fella is 7. He is asking me for a phone already. He can continue asking for as long as he likes.
Great post Easytiger
Roger McNamee used to work for Zuckerberg
He was recently quoted in the FT . « The problem with hate speech is that it is fundamental to the business model of Google and Facebook »
Guillaume Chaslot
@gchaslot
·
Sep 2
The YouTube algorithm I worked on heavily promoted Brexit, because divisiveness is efficient for watch time, and watch time leads to ads.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on May 01, 2019, 12:14:07 PM
Cases like this are so difficult to deal with. This is our Jamie Bulger moment in many ways. I have sat with killers of different ilks, 1 punch people who were 'unlucky', people who did it for a 'cause', people who did it in a drink/drugs fueled frenzy, people who didn't have the capacity to know what really was going on(and trust me there are plenty of them out there), others were just cold, heartless b**tards. I have a 12 year old son, the thought that he or his peers could do something like this is very, very scary. He wouldn't but could someone he is in school with do it? I know I regularly get into rows with people over this type of stuff but the reality is that the society that people are brought up in, the background and family circumstances, form the people that commit the crimes. This is going to be a heart wrenching case and no one will walk away from it feeling that they have achieved a 'victory' no matter what the result.
Circumstances can create a situation where you are 'unlucky', the structure of society can create a 'cause', but sadly some people are indeed just cold, heartless b**tards and it is not the fault of their circumstances.
The social media is a separate issue, and a hard one to deal with, but one that must be addressed.
From what was reported today, there seems to be loads of DNA evidence linking boy A to the murder, you'd have to wonder what his defence is going to be or why he doesn't just plead guilty
Thought the same when I heard it today, unless each is gonna blame the other and hope for a lesser charge?
It seems boy A is sticking with these "other older lads"who beat him up, also killed her as his defence. To an adult It just sounds like nonsense a 13year old would make up, he prob doesnt realise that and is ignoring his parents and legal consuel.
Not much linking the other lad (boy b) tho... he was the last one seen with her it seems fair enuff, but the tape seems a bit of a stretch as hard evidence.
Youd wonder did they throw the murder charge at him for not testifying against Boy A. Find out soon enuff I suppose.
Youd think Boy B's only defence would be to blame Boy A but if he was gonna do that it wud be separate trials wouldn't it?
Dont like these internet histories being used to paint demonic caricatures of defendants, the half of it sounds like click bait.
Tragic stuff anyway the whole thing
Can someone lock the topic? Dinny?
The banality of Boy A's mother leaving a top to soak overnight to deal with the blood and the awfulness of the fact that a first year was murdered
I can't speak for the others, but I'd be in favour of locking the thread because discussing this feels wrong in every way. It's right that it's reported, it's right that people know what happened, but at the same time there's something about speculating on how it'll end up like it was an episode of Murder, She Wrote - no. It's too much for me.
And I know that people don't mean any harm by it and I'm sorry if anyone feels insulted by this. It's just my opinion. All I personally read about this case are the headlines. The details are the last thing I need. God help them all. Everybody loses in this one.
Also, as others have said before me, that was beautiful post by EasyTiger. I don't know who you are, but I wish there were more like you.
Each to their own and I know its not easy to talk about but I think it is quite important that we see, hear, understand and discuss what went on in this case and in cases like it.
Abuse of children has been in my head quite a bit since following the Alesha MacPhail case in the Isle of Butte and watching the Madeline McCann documentary on Netflix, and what I can do to protect my own children.
If we live in a world were this sort of stuff is not discussed, its out of mind and in a way we subconsciously start to think it doesnt happen. Then we are creating conditions for it happen.
Think it should be locked too,
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on May 17, 2019, 10:21:50 PM
I can't speak for the others, but I'd be in favour of locking the thread because discussing this feels wrong in every way. It's right that it's reported, it's right that people know what happened, but at the same time there's something about speculating on how it'll end up like it was an episode of Murder, She Wrote - no. It's too much for me.
And I know that people don't mean any harm by it and I'm sorry if anyone feels insulted by this. It's just my opinion. All I personally read about this case are the headlines. The details are the last thing I need. God help them all. Everybody loses in this one.
Also, as others have said before me, that was beautiful post by EasyTiger. I don't know who you are, but I wish there were more like you.
I am also in favour of locking the thread. It's not easy to say why I feel this way but any reference to what happened to Ana stirs up a feeling of unease, I can't express it better than that.
However, Easy Tiger's post did strike a chord with me also as I think he spoke for a lot of ordinary people here when he expressed his fears. Unfortunately, we are all well used to stories of unspeakable atrocities from all quarters and for all sorts of motives but this one was somehow different.
In my own ineloquent way, this was a case of Jamie Bulger revisited.
Even depraved Isis jihadists or their equally fanatical counterparts who bombed the mosques in New Zealand had motives of some sort and and are adults and both are lacking here. Security forces everywhere and the general public are at least aware of the possibility of future attacks occurring and are taking all possible steps to prevent them happening anywhere again.
Here we are talking about children- two boys barely into their teens, in no apparent way any different to other children around them.
Yet, this assault and murder seem to have been premeditated and the Google search for gruesome torture methods bears this out. But the behaviour of the pair of suspects seemed to be no different to that of their peers. They could have been from any other housing estate or rural village anywhere - and so could their victim.
I guess I can't look at children of any age or place right now without thinking, however briefly, of what happened to Ana.
I won't be returning to this topic again.
Why lock it? If you have issues about it then don't read it. You have the free will not to read about it online, in the papers or watch the news. Some people would like to discuss it as is their prerogative. That's the wonderful thing about technology, there is an option to change things when you don't like what you see.
Both Guilty!
Quote from: Rossfan on June 18, 2019, 02:32:03 PM
Both Guilty!
I had thought maybe Boy B might get off with it but sounds like the right verdict was reached to be fair.
What happened to these 2 lads that they could do such a thing??
Quote from: screenexile on June 18, 2019, 02:49:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 18, 2019, 02:32:03 PM
Both Guilty!
I had thought maybe Boy B might get off with it but sounds like the right verdict was reached to be fair.
What happened to these 2 lads that they could do such a thing??
Violence against women by males is commonplace unfortunately. Toxic attitudes contribute to it.
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 18, 2019, 03:17:23 PM
Quote from: screenexile on June 18, 2019, 02:49:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 18, 2019, 02:32:03 PM
Both Guilty!
I had thought maybe Boy B might get off with it but sounds like the right verdict was reached to be fair.
What happened to these 2 lads that they could do such a thing??
Violence against women by males is commonplace unfortunately. Toxic attitudes contribute to it.
There had to be a porn angle. And there was
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-evidence-the-jury-did-not-hear-1.3929624
Gardaí found internet searches for "child porn" and "animal porn" on the phone of one of the two boys convicted of murdering Ana Kriégel.
The 14-year-old accused, who can only be identified as Boy A due to his age, also had thousands of images of pornography in his phone, some of which depicted sexual violence.
The evidence emerged during legal argument in the seven week trial which ended on Tuesday with the two boys convicted on all charges.
The prosecution sought to put evidence of the internet searches and the violent pornography before the jury as part of their case against Boy A, who was also convicted of violently sexually assaulting Ana.
Mr Justice Paul McDermott excluded the evidence after ruling its prejudicial value outweighed its probative value.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
So how did Boy B get found guilty of murder as it just seems he was present at the murder? Or am I missing something
I concur.
A tough read..
Quote from: Minder on June 18, 2019, 08:13:51 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
So how did Boy B get found guilty of murder as it just seems he was present at the murder? Or am I missing something
Obviously the Jury decided based on the evidence.
He did bring her to the house, and he provided tape to tie her up or whatever.
So they felt he knew she was going to get assaulted/raped/killed.
I expect he'll be appealing.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 18, 2019, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Minder on June 18, 2019, 08:13:51 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
So how did Boy B get found guilty of murder as it just seems he was present at the murder? Or am I missing something
Obviously the Jury decided based on the evidence.
He did bring her to the house, and he provided tape to tie her up or whatever.
So they felt he knew she was going to get assaulted/raped/killed.
I expect he'll be appealing.
Yeah I know that it's just the actual act of murdering her I suppose, it seemed all Boy A
Heart breaking story, RIP Ana
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
Forced myself to read the whole thing. Brutal.
RIP Ana Kriegel.
Quote from: Minder on June 18, 2019, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 18, 2019, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Minder on June 18, 2019, 08:13:51 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
So how did Boy B get found guilty of murder as it just seems he was present at the murder? Or am I missing something
Obviously the Jury decided based on the evidence.
He did bring her to the house, and he provided tape to tie her up or whatever.
So they felt he knew she was going to get assaulted/raped/killed.
I expect he'll be appealing.
Yeah I know that it's just the actual act of murdering her I suppose, it seemed all Boy A
You don't have to have struck any sort of physical wound to commit murder. The jury decided they were in on it together and it was premeditated.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
It's not. It's just awful. How? Why?
A very gut wrenching read. Very difficult for all 3 families involved. I've an 11 year old daughter and 9 year old boy so this opens my eyes so much more to what/who's out there.
I don't have all the evidence but from this I really struggle to see how Boy B was found guilty of murder also.
Heartbreaking stuff.
RIP Ana
Quote from: Minder on June 18, 2019, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 18, 2019, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Minder on June 18, 2019, 08:13:51 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
So how did Boy B get found guilty of murder as it just seems he was present at the murder? Or am I missing something
Obviously the Jury decided based on the evidence.
He did bring her to the house, and he provided tape to tie her up or whatever.
So they felt he knew she was going to get assaulted/raped/killed.
I expect he'll be appealing.
Yeah I know that it's just the actual act of murdering her I suppose, it seemed all Boy A
If you read the article it shows that boy A told boy B a month before the killing that he wanted to kill Ana. That is a major part of the reason why boy B was convicted.
For me I find it difficult to beleive that boy B would be stupid enough to call for Ana and bring her through the park in front of witnesses and cctv if he really thought Ana was going to be killed.
Rough mess now the whole thing
Boy A case for me was simple, overwhelming evidence against him, his defence was terrible, should have plead guilty.
Dont know on Boy B.... defo guilty of a few very serious crimes but really I am not sure about murder.
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 19, 2019, 06:44:55 AM
Rough mess now the whole thing
Boy A case for me was simple, overwhelming evidence against him, his defence was terrible, should have plead guilty.
Dont know on Boy B.... defo guilty of a few very serious crimes but really I am not sure about murder.
Could be wrong here Joe, but I don't think there is any benefit to the suspect for pleading guilty to murder in the ROI.
Secondly, I'm not sure what crimes you think boy B could be found guilty of other than murder. He was either going to get done for murder or nothing at all.
Irish Times article makes clear that there is no discount for pleading guilty as sentence for murder is mandatory life. Hence many evidently guilty people with what would appear to be little hope of getting off will plead not guilty on the hope of some sort of technicality or legal quirk will set them free.
However mandatory life isn't possible under the Children's Act I understand, so be very interesting to see what happens at sentencing.
Quote from: gallsman on June 18, 2019, 09:19:39 PM
Quote from: Minder on June 18, 2019, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 18, 2019, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Minder on June 18, 2019, 08:13:51 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
So how did Boy B get found guilty of murder as it just seems he was present at the murder? Or am I missing something
Obviously the Jury decided based on the evidence.
He did bring her to the house, and he provided tape to tie her up or whatever.
So they felt he knew she was going to get assaulted/raped/killed.
I expect he'll be appealing.
Yeah I know that it's just the actual act of murdering her I suppose, it seemed all Boy A
You don't have to have struck any sort of physical wound to commit murder. The jury decided they were in on it together and it was premeditated.
"Common Purpose"
Ah I swear I'm not usually like this, I can brush most stuff off reading that article yesterday just has me questioning humanity.
RIP Ana.
Just so heart breaking. Maybe it's because I have an 11 year old daughter but it just bring tears to my eyes when I read about the case.
Tragic case. As they are minors they cannot be sentenced to life. They will do their time in the juvenile detention program till they turn 18 and depending on how that goes they will likely be released to a semi open prison and will serve I reckon 5 more years for Boy B and 7 for boy A. Boy B has a few semi strong appeal points from stuff I have heard and I can see that being appealed. Boy A is a different story altogether. There are no winners here and these boys will eventually be 'outed'. All 3 families are destroyed by this
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
Tragic case. As they are minors they cannot be sentenced to life. They will do their time in the juvenile detention program till they turn 18 and depending on how that goes they will likely be released to a semi open prison and will serve I reckon 5 more years for Boy B and 7 for boy A. Boy B has a few semi strong appeal points from stuff I have heard and I can see that being appealed. Boy A is a different story altogether. There are no winners here and these boys will eventually be 'outed'. All 3 families are destroyed by this
It's not definite that they won't be given life according tonwhat I've read. Life is mandatory for an adult convicted of murder but not specified for a minor - seems to be at judge's discretion although they tend not to give life.
Quote from: Tubberman on June 19, 2019, 10:48:10 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
Tragic case. As they are minors they cannot be sentenced to life. They will do their time in the juvenile detention program till they turn 18 and depending on how that goes they will likely be released to a semi open prison and will serve I reckon 5 more years for Boy B and 7 for boy A. Boy B has a few semi strong appeal points from stuff I have heard and I can see that being appealed. Boy A is a different story altogether. There are no winners here and these boys will eventually be 'outed'. All 3 families are destroyed by this
It's not definite that they won't be given life according tonwhat I've read. Life is mandatory for an adult convicted of murder but not specified for a minor - seems to be at judge's discretion although they tend not to give life.
True but it really would be unusual. This is an unusual case though and the judge may impose a life sentence. Should that happen you will be guaranteed an appeal. I still think 10 years for boy B and 12-14 years for Boy A are strong possibilities
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
Tragic case. As they are minors they cannot be sentenced to life. They will do their time in the juvenile detention program till they turn 18 and depending on how that goes they will likely be released to a semi open prison and will serve I reckon 5 more years for Boy B and 7 for boy A. Boy B has a few semi strong appeal points from stuff I have heard and I can see that being appealed. Boy A is a different story altogether. There are no winners here and these boys will eventually be 'outed'. All 3 families are destroyed by this
Apparently their pics are circulating this morning in the usual spots.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 19, 2019, 11:12:04 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
Tragic case. As they are minors they cannot be sentenced to life. They will do their time in the juvenile detention program till they turn 18 and depending on how that goes they will likely be released to a semi open prison and will serve I reckon 5 more years for Boy B and 7 for boy A. Boy B has a few semi strong appeal points from stuff I have heard and I can see that being appealed. Boy A is a different story altogether. There are no winners here and these boys will eventually be 'outed'. All 3 families are destroyed by this
Apparently their pics are circulating this morning in the usual spots.
No surprises there...sourced no doubt from a leak from AGS....
Such a tragic story. My heart goes out to the poor girls family. I have much less sympathy for the other two families. The way they dragged Ana's family through a trial when they should have confessed and pleaded guilty is reprehensible. Even one of the parents still thinks their wee rat is innocent ::)
Poor girl had no friends, cause she was physically bigger than most kids her age and her hearing was poor. She just could not fit in. So the bullies do as they do, they go after the most vunerable or weakest in society. All of us are probably guility of bullying someone weaker than us, be it in school or in the work place. Its something socially wrong society and is unfortunate and difficult to address.
Boy A describes himself as someone who thinks differently, nothing wrong with that in my opinion, it should be encourged and harnessed in the right direction. He also like horror movies about ghosts and does martial arts, all these signs were picked up by the Indo as if to portray the boy as a weirdo, hate this about sensationlist journos.
Horrible waste of a life and boy A in particular deserves every bit of badness coming his way.
Excellent post by Easytiger earlier on.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 19, 2019, 11:12:04 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
Tragic case. As they are minors they cannot be sentenced to life. They will do their time in the juvenile detention program till they turn 18 and depending on how that goes they will likely be released to a semi open prison and will serve I reckon 5 more years for Boy B and 7 for boy A. Boy B has a few semi strong appeal points from stuff I have heard and I can see that being appealed. Boy A is a different story altogether. There are no winners here and these boys will eventually be 'outed'. All 3 families are destroyed by this
Apparently their pics are circulating this morning in the usual spots.
There was pictures up on boards.ie on the thread on this case.
I'm sure everyone in Leixlip know who they are anyway, it's not a huge place.
Quote from: gallsman on June 18, 2019, 09:18:36 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 18, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570
This is not easy reading.
Forced myself to read the whole thing. Brutal.
RIP Ana Kriegel.
This. That's all I can say.
Although the story is heart-rending and appalling, the well scripted IT article is a must read.
The investigation work was exhaustive despite it being a virtual slam dunk case. I assume the Gardai have to prepare a rock solid case that will endure inevitable objections to the inclusions of evidence and any exclusions of parts.
Interesting intervention by the father in the court after the decision was read out, a bully who begat a bully.
After reading that I'd be more adamant that parents should know everything their kids are looking at online. We have installed a programme on my boys phones to look a the apps they are using and can put parental control on.
That poor girl has suffered her whole life at the hands of bullies. What sort of society are we living in?!
I have to say the guards can get a hard time in the press (and rightfully so when required) but they seem to have put together a really good case here and well covered by the IT article.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 19, 2019, 01:55:59 PM
After reading that I'd be more adamant that parents should know everything their kids are looking at online. We have installed a programme on my boys phones to look a the apps they are using and can put parental control on.
That poor girl has suffered her whole life at the hands of bullies. What sort of society are we living in?!
I have to say the guards can get a hard time in the press (and rightfully so when required) but they seem to have put together a really good case here and well covered by the IT article.
You really have to the amount of stuff they can access is ridiculous and they'd be running rings round most parents who don't pay attention I'd imagine... still can't get over the horror of it all.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 19, 2019, 01:55:59 PM
I have to say the guards can get a hard time in the press (and rightfully so when required) but they seem to have put together a really good case here and well covered by the IT article.
The Gardai did an amazing job in stitching up the case on Boy B.
Boy B may have been a stooge of Boy A, who was bigger, stronger, into martial arts, etc. Or he may have been the mastermind behind the plan (or at least very willing voyueur to it). The pure text of his interviews and the fact he actually called to her house and saw her father would give some doubt that he knew what was going to happen. But apparently his demeanour, tone, body language during all the interviews where he consistently lied, led the jurors to conclude that he was fully aware of what would happen to poor Ana.
If he'd taken Boy A's approach to dealing with the Gardai (say nowt) then he probably wouldn't even have been charged, never mind convicted.
Quote from: Hound on June 19, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 19, 2019, 01:55:59 PM
I have to say the guards can get a hard time in the press (and rightfully so when required) but they seem to have put together a really good case here and well covered by the IT article.
The Gardai did an amazing job in stitching up the case on Boy B.
Boy B may have been a stooge of Boy A, who was bigger, stronger, into martial arts, etc. Or he may have been the mastermind behind the plan (or at least very willing voyueur to it). The pure text of his interviews and the fact he actually called to her house and saw her father would give some doubt that he knew what was going to happen. But apparently his demeanour, tone, body language during all the interviews where he consistently lied, led the jurors to conclude that he was fully aware of what would happen to poor Ana.
If he'd taken Boy A's approach to dealing with the Gardai (say nowt) then he probably wouldn't even have been charged, never mind convicted.
They weren't very sophisticated
Left behind a body
CCTV everywhere
Couldn't open a bra
Porn isn't real
Boy B picking the girl up at her home puts a spanner in most theories about his level of culpability in the planning and knowledge of what was going to happen.
Quote from: Main Street on June 19, 2019, 03:06:50 PM
Boy B picking the girl up at her home puts a spanner in most theories about his level of culpability in the planning and knowledge of what was going to happen.
Yep.
Although only 13 at the time, known to be very smart, but that's smart for a 13 year old, so maybe not as smart as he thinks he is.
Reports suggested that he did appear very cool and calculating and even callous in the police interviews. And the jury saw all the interviews and all 12 were convinced he knew.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/facebook-and-twitter-ordered-to-court-over-identification-of-boys-1.3930913
I have an uneasy feeling over the murder conviction of " Boy B".
It just doesn't sit right somehow.
Quote from: Hound on June 19, 2019, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 19, 2019, 03:06:50 PM
Boy B picking the girl up at her home puts a spanner in most theories about his level of culpability in the planning and knowledge of what was going to happen.
Yep.
Although only 13 at the time, known to be very smart, but that's smart for a 13 year old, so maybe not as smart as he thinks he is.
Reports suggested that he did appear very cool and calculating and even callous in the police interviews. And the jury saw all the interviews and all 12 were convinced he knew.
The clinical psychologist had a different take on boy B's level of smartness than the detective's
The jury were denied the evidence from the clinical psychologist of why the boy told stories (instead of coming clean) and what it meant.
The judge denied this expert evidence, claiming that the jury did not not need to be told that a 13 year old would be shocked to witness a murder, something he called an "ordinary human reaction". Did the judge assume these were 2 normal humans?
Is the judge an expert in child clinical psychology? If the judge accepted that the boy experienced shock he should have allowed a clinician's explanation of how this trauma affected this boy's behavior in the interviews, seeing as 99% of the case against boy B were the interviews.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ana-kriegel-verdict-psychologist-said-boy-b-was-a-pleasant-nice-lad-suffering-from-ptsd-931434.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ana-kriegel-verdict-psychologist-said-boy-b-was-a-pleasant-nice-lad-suffering-from-ptsd-931434.html)
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 11:13:13 AM
No surprises there...sourced no doubt from a leak from AGS....
Ah come off it. Everyone around leixlip and Lucan knows who they are and what they look like. You don't think any of their fellow students might have thought "jaysus look, boy a and boy b have both left school this year, and Ana's dead. Isn't that weird?"
Quote from: gallsman on June 19, 2019, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 11:13:13 AM
No surprises there...sourced no doubt from a leak from AGS....
Ah come off it. Everyone around leixlip and Lucan knows who they are and what they look like. You don't think any of their fellow students might have thought "jaysus look, boy a and boy b have both left school this year, and Ana's dead. Isn't that weird?"
No dispute about that but don't be under any illusion....this is a great 'victory' for AGS.
Conviction of murderers is a victory for AGS and all of us.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 08:20:43 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 19, 2019, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 19, 2019, 11:13:13 AM
No surprises there...sourced no doubt from a leak from AGS....
Ah come off it. Everyone around leixlip and Lucan knows who they are and what they look like. You don't think any of their fellow students might have thought "jaysus look, boy a and boy b have both left school this year, and Ana's dead. Isn't that weird?"
No dispute about that but don't be under any illusion....this is a great 'victory' for AGS.
Surely giving themselves more work to do?
nothing surprises me anymore with children and parents
nothing
RIP to the girl and condolences to her family
Quote from: Rossfan on June 19, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
I have an uneasy feeling over the murder conviction of " Boy B".
It just doesn't sit right somehow.
How's that Rossfan?
Just a feeling......
Quote from: moysider on June 19, 2019, 11:34:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 19, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
I have an uneasy feeling over the murder conviction of " Boy B".
It just doesn't sit right somehow.
How's that Rossfan?
I agree. There's not much evidence against him.
Quote from: Norf Tyrone on June 20, 2019, 12:14:34 AM
Quote from: moysider on June 19, 2019, 11:34:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 19, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
I have an uneasy feeling over the murder conviction of " Boy B".
It just doesn't sit right somehow.
How's that Rossfan?
I agree. There's not much evidence against him.
I suspect the 14 hour jury deliberation was mostly about Boy B.
I was interested in this case - working with kids all my life - and as the trial developed I thought it became clear that 'Boy B' ' actions facilitated a murder.
No 'Boy B' and that girl would not have been murdered that evening. Maybe somebody else, or her, at another time and place.
He lured her to meet another lad in an abandoned house 3km. away. A boy that had already told him he wanted to kill the girl.
Evidence; he was on cctv footage going into the park with the girl and returning without her. Boy A was seen returning from the park ( limping according to some journalists that saw the tapes).
'Boy B' changed his story all the time. However, he admitted he was there when Boy A started the assault on the girl and watched at least some of it. The cctv footage timeline shows that 'Boy B' could have watched the whole assault.
Not only did he lead her to a killer, he probably could have saved her if he intervened when she was attacked.
Cold as it is, the fact he probably could have saved her is irrelevant when it comes to determinimg his guilt. Failing to stop a crime is not a crime.
Boy B lured that girl knowing something bad was going to happen.
Quote from: hardstation on June 20, 2019, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
Boy B lured that girl knowing something bad was going to happen.
I don't think anyone doubts that. Does that constitute a conviction for murder? That's the question.
Not exactly sure of the law surrounding this. A question for our legal eagles on board. Boy A had previously suggested murdering her, to which he probably laughed off. Then he was asked by Boy A to bring her to he location. He said he left the scene hearing her scream knowing she was in distress and did nothing to intervene or prevent!? Is this aiding and abetting?
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:43:43 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 20, 2019, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
Boy B lured that girl knowing something bad was going to happen.
I don't think anyone doubts that. Does that constitute a conviction for murder? That's the question.
Not exactly sure of the law surrounding this. A question for our legal eagles on board. Boy A had previously suggested murdering her, to which he probably laughed off. Then he was asked by Boy A to bring her to he location, Boy B Fluid found on the poor girls clothes. He said he left the scene hearing her scream knowing she was in distress and did nothing to intervene or prevent!? Is this aiding and abetting?
Was it?
I know Boy A's was.
Quote from: johnnycool on June 20, 2019, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:43:43 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 20, 2019, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
Boy B lured that girl knowing something bad was going to happen.
I don't think anyone doubts that. Does that constitute a conviction for murder? That's the question.
Not exactly sure of the law surrounding this. A question for our legal eagles on board. Boy A had previously suggested murdering her, to which he probably laughed off. Then he was asked by Boy A to bring her to he location, Boy B Fluid found on the poor girls clothes. He said he left the scene hearing her scream knowing she was in distress and did nothing to intervene or prevent!? Is this aiding and abetting?
Was it?
I know Boy A's was.
None of Boy Bs person was found according to the very detailed IT interview.
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:43:43 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 20, 2019, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
Boy B lured that girl knowing something bad was going to happen.
I don't think anyone doubts that. Does that constitute a conviction for murder? That's the question.
Not exactly sure of the law surrounding this. A question for our legal eagles on board. Boy A had previously suggested murdering her, to which he probably laughed off. Then he was asked by Boy A to bring her to he location, Boy B Fluid found on the poor girls clothes. He said he left the scene hearing her scream knowing she was in distress and did nothing to intervene or prevent!? Is this aiding and abetting?
He called to the girls house not knowing her, told her a lie to gain her trust (as was common in his evidence throughout), he's walked her about 3k / 30 mins knowing Boy A was waiting who has previously expressed his aggression towards her with his "murder kit" to an abandoned house, seen Boy A attack maybe seen him kill the poor girl, done nothing and went home like it was nothing seemingly.
He's lied repeatedly throughout his evidence, every time seemingly to distance himself from the act of Boy A. We are told this boy is intelligent but naive.
I'm fairly comfortable that he's been found guilty of murder to be honest.
Quote from: johnnycool on June 20, 2019, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:43:43 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 20, 2019, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
Boy B lured that girl knowing something bad was going to happen.
I don't think anyone doubts that. Does that constitute a conviction for murder? That's the question.
Not exactly sure of the law surrounding this. A question for our legal eagles on board. Boy A had previously suggested murdering her, to which he probably laughed off. Then he was asked by Boy A to bring her to he location . He said he left the scene hearing her scream knowing she was in distress and did nothing to intervene or prevent!? Is this aiding and abetting?
Was it?
I know Boy A's was.
Apologies if I read that incorrectly.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on June 20, 2019, 09:15:56 AM
AINAL (for damn sure!) but I suspect that Boy B in this case was found guilty of murder on the basis of "Common Purpose" or "Joint Enterprise" under the principle of Common Law as opposed to Statutory Law. Namely that if a group of two or more participants engage or prepare to engage in a criminal act, then they all hold joint liability of an outcome from that act. The jury were probably discussing for some time in deliberation as to wherever the murder was a Joint Enterprise or not.
QuoteThe simplest form of joint enterprise to murder is two or more planning to cause death and doing so. If all the parties participated in carrying out the plan, all are liable, regardless of who actually inflicted the fatal injury. However, when there is no plan to murder and one party kills while carrying out a plan to do something else, such as a planned robbery in which the participants hope to be able to get what they want without killing anyone, but one of them in fact kills, the other participants may still be guilty of murder or manslaughter if they had the necessary mens rea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_purpose
It was common purpose.
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:43:43 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 20, 2019, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
Boy B lured that girl knowing something bad was going to happen.
I don't think anyone doubts that. Does that constitute a conviction for murder? That's the question.
Not exactly sure of the law surrounding this. A question for our legal eagles on board. Boy A had previously suggested murdering her, to which he probably laughed off. Then he was asked by Boy A to bring her to he location. He said he left the scene hearing her scream knowing she was in distress and did nothing to intervene or prevent!? Is this aiding and abetting?
This is the thing - juries don't get to do what you just did and make an off the cuff assumption that he"probably" laughed it off.
They have to decide based on the evidence. You can argue that you believe they did this incorrectly, but they've evidently decided that it was all a premeditated plan that he was aware and part of.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 10:20:35 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:43:43 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 20, 2019, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 20, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
Boy B lured that girl knowing something bad was going to happen.
I don't think anyone doubts that. Does that constitute a conviction for murder? That's the question.
Not exactly sure of the law surrounding this. A question for our legal eagles on board. Boy A had previously suggested murdering her, to which he probably laughed off. Then he was asked by Boy A to bring her to he location. He said he left the scene hearing her scream knowing she was in distress and did nothing to intervene or prevent!? Is this aiding and abetting?
This is the thing - juries don't get to do what you just did and make an off the cuff assumption that he"probably" laughed it off.
They have to decide based on the evidence. You can argue that you believe they did this incorrectly, but they've evidently decided that it was all a premeditated plan that he was aware and part of.
Boy B said in one of his accounts (remember he lied throughout this process numerous times) that he laughed it off. Even if you believe that, might the ould alarm bells have started ringing when Boy A asked him to collect Ana and bring her to a derelict house?
The only reasonable conclusion is they were in it together. These guys were best mates. Fairly cut and dried if you ask me.
They weren't best mates. Boy B might have thought they were but Boy A made it clear they weren't.
The fact he said he laughed it off isn't what matters. What matters is whether the members of the jury believed this or not. Evidently they didn't.
The bottom line is this:
Given Boy B's involvement and the evidence against him, then irrespective of whether he should have been convicted of murder or not, he deserves whatever punishment (plus more) is coming his way.
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
Personnally i would have felt more comfortable if Boy B was charged with lesser charge like one or two lads were in recent gangland murders for Facilitating the crime. Dont think its clear cut whether or not he knew exactly what was going to happen. He wasnt the one who actually killed the poor girl.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 12:25:19 PM
They weren't best mates. Boy B might have thought they were but Boy A made it clear they weren't.
The fact he said he laughed it off isn't what matters. What matters is whether the members of the jury believed this or not. Evidently they didn't.
The evidence pointed to the fact they were good friends. Clearly they are not any more.
Your second point is exactly shat I was saying - it wasn't believable that he laughed it off and then brought the girl to a derelict house to meet boy A.
Quote from: oliverkelly on June 20, 2019, 12:38:48 PM
Personnally i would have felt more comfortable if Boy B was charged with lesser charge like one or two lads were in recent gangland murders for Facilitating the crime. Dont think its clear cut whether or not he knew exactly what was going to happen. He wasnt the one who actually killed the poor girl.
Did you read the bit about common purpose?
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 12:38:44 PM
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
I don't always agree with you but felt the same on this.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 12:38:44 PM
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
Very easy say that when your not in that parents shoes. While i dont agree with his action he could think his son is a victim here too. Its not clear cut that he knew whether or not she was going to be killed. He lied fair enough but he was 13 and i have met people way more mature and older who lie through their teeth. Looking at the pictures of the lad he looks about 10 he could have been taking advantage off by boy A
Quote from: oliverkelly on June 20, 2019, 12:41:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 12:38:44 PM
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
Very easy say that when your not in that parents shoes. While i dont agree with his action he could think his son is a victim here too. Its not clear cut that he knew whether or not she was going to be killed. He lied fair enough but he was 13 and i have met people way more mature and older who lie through their teeth. Looking at the pictures of the lad he looks about 10 he could have been taking advantage off by boy A
Why didn't his defense make that case so? Stop clutching at straws.
Quote from: oliverkelly on June 20, 2019, 12:41:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 12:38:44 PM
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
Very easy say that when your not in that parents shoes. While i dont agree with his action he could think his son is a victim here too. Its not clear cut that he knew whether or not she was going to be killed. He lied fair enough but he was 13 and i have met people way more mature and older who lie through their teeth. Looking at the pictures of the lad he looks about 10 he could have been taking advantage off by boy A
Aw right I haven't seen any pics of his angelic wee face and therefore didn't realise he was completely innocent.
Now that you've put me right i will hafta admit his Da was right in what he did and is not the completely pathological sc**bag that I thought he was.
Is it Boy A or B's father who is alleged to be a member of AGS? Or is it the usual twitter bull?
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 20, 2019, 12:42:55 PM
Quote from: oliverkelly on June 20, 2019, 12:41:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 12:38:44 PM
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
Very easy say that when your not in that parents shoes. While i dont agree with his action he could think his son is a victim here too. Its not clear cut that he knew whether or not she was going to be killed. He lied fair enough but he was 13 and i have met people way more mature and older who lie through their teeth. Looking at the pictures of the lad he looks about 10 he could have been taking advantage off by boy A
Why didn't his defense make that case so? Stop clutching at straws.
They tried, Judge wouldnt allow it.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/court-heard-that-boy-b-didnt-want-to-be-boy-as-friend-and-was-afraid-of-him-but-he-gave-him-some-kudos-38232766.html
Quote from: oliverkelly on June 20, 2019, 01:31:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 20, 2019, 12:42:55 PM
Quote from: oliverkelly on June 20, 2019, 12:41:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 12:38:44 PM
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
Very easy say that when your not in that parents shoes. While i dont agree with his action he could think his son is a victim here too. Its not clear cut that he knew whether or not she was going to be killed. He lied fair enough but he was 13 and i have met people way more mature and older who lie through their teeth. Looking at the pictures of the lad he looks about 10 he could have been taking advantage off by boy A
Why didn't his defense make that case so? Stop clutching at straws.
They tried, Judge wouldnt allow it.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/court-heard-that-boy-b-didnt-want-to-be-boy-as-friend-and-was-afraid-of-him-but-he-gave-him-some-kudos-38232766.html
Did you read that yourself?
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 12:38:44 PM
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
That behavior was telling. His son has been a participant in the brutal murder and sexual assault of a young girl and he's calling the jury scumbags and has the audacity to slow hand clap in front of the parents. He would be better off to reflect on what he reared.
Quote from: weareros on June 20, 2019, 02:11:55 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 12:38:44 PM
Hard to know what is the most disturbing aspect of this case is as one horrific revelation follows another just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.
The detailed planning of such a gruesome act and the fact that it entailed a conspiracy between 2 people of that age. The calm way in which they went about their lives thereafter in the days before they became suspects. The way in which each of them responded to the allegations when they became suspects, one by no comment interviews and one by lying and lying and lying. The complete and utter lack of remorse or even acceptance of responsibility for their actions of either of these children, and indeed their parents.
The despicable outburst by the father of Boy B in the courtroom, which I found truly shameful, to me it is no wonder his son should be involved in actions such as these if this is how he feels it is appropriate to conduct himself in front of the parents of a young girl that was so brutally murdered.
That behavior was telling. His son has been a participant in the brutal murder and sexual assault of a young girl and he's calling the jury scumbags and has the audacity to slow hand clap in front of the parents. He would be better off to reflect on what he reared.
At the very least his son didn't intervene, didn't get help and didn't tell anyone when she lay there dead for days with people searching for her. I think that's uncontested, ya?
Parent in not wanting to believe their teenage child is a murderer shocker.
Anyone pretending that they are 100% sure they'd sit there all solemn and respectful is talking out of their hole.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 02:47:00 PM
Parent in not wanting to believe their teenage child is a murderer shocker.
Anyone pretending that they are 100% sure they'd sit there all solemn and respectful is talking out of their hole.
I would say the vast majority of people would never consider doing what your man done. No offence but you obviously had a different upbringing if you think that is an acceptable way to behave.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 02:47:00 PM
Parent in not wanting to believe their teenage child is a murderer shocker.
Anyone pretending that they are 100% sure they'd sit there all solemn and respectful is talking out of their hole.
I would say the vast majority of people would never consider doing what your man done. No offence but you obviously had a different upbringing if you think that is an acceptable way to behave.
Of it's not acceptable, but that doesn't mean it's not understandable. The point (which you've clearly failed to grasp repeatedly) is that I don't imagine it's particularly easy to think and behave rationally, and thus really question whether your behaviour is acceptable or not, when your 14 year old child has just been found guilty of murder.
It's very easy to be judgmental about someone's immediate reaction to a scenario you will never, ever find yourself in.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
It's very easy to be judgmental about someone's immediate reaction to a scenario you will never, ever find yourself in.
Could not agree more. I have no idea what the parents are like as characters, but his world has been turned upside down and in a devastating way, with that announcement.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 02:47:00 PM
Parent in not wanting to believe their teenage child is a murderer shocker.
Anyone pretending that they are 100% sure they'd sit there all solemn and respectful is talking out of their hole.
I would say the vast majority of people would never consider doing what your man done. No offence but you obviously had a different upbringing if you think that is an acceptable way to behave.
Of it's not acceptable, but that doesn't mean it's not understandable. The point (which you've clearly failed to grasp repeatedly) is that I don't imagine it's particularly easy to think and behave rationally, and thus really question whether your behaviour is acceptable or not, when your 14 year old child has just been found guilty of murder.
It's very easy to be judgmental about someone's immediate reaction to a scenario you will never, ever find yourself in.
I am sure he will appreciate your empathy.
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on June 20, 2019, 03:11:43 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
It's very easy to be judgmental about someone's immediate reaction to a scenario you will never, ever find yourself in.
Could not agree more. I have no idea what the parents are like as characters, but his world has been turned upside down and in a devastating way, with that announcement.
Well that is exactly the point, as far as he is concerned it's his son's and his family's world that have been turned upside down, there is not a single thought for the real victim or her family in his mind even though his son was clearly up to his neck in the most heinous of crimes imaginable. For me that tells me everything about his character that I need to know.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 02:47:00 PM
Parent in not wanting to believe their teenage child is a murderer shocker.
Anyone pretending that they are 100% sure they'd sit there all solemn and respectful is talking out of their hole.
I would say the vast majority of people would never consider doing what your man done. No offence but you obviously had a different upbringing if you think that is an acceptable way to behave.
Of it's not acceptable, but that doesn't mean it's not understandable. The point (which you've clearly failed to grasp repeatedly) is that I don't imagine it's particularly easy to think and behave rationally, and thus really question whether your behaviour is acceptable or not, when your 14 year old child has just been found guilty of murder.
It's very easy to be judgmental about someone's immediate reaction to a scenario you will never, ever find yourself in.
I didn't see the incident but like you say in that split second it would be quite likely that most parents would react in a way in which they normally wouldn't. I hope I never find myself in such a situation either.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on June 20, 2019, 03:11:43 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
It's very easy to be judgmental about someone's immediate reaction to a scenario you will never, ever find yourself in.
Could not agree more. I have no idea what the parents are like as characters, but his world has been turned upside down and in a devastating way, with that announcement.
Well that is exactly the point, as far as he is concerned it's his son's and his family's world that have been turned upside down, there is not a single thought for the real victim or her family in his mind even though his son was clearly up to his neck in the most heinous of crimes imaginable. For me that tells me everything about his character that I need to know.
You expect any reasonable, normal parent's first thoughts not to be about their own child?
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:32:19 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on June 20, 2019, 03:11:43 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
It's very easy to be judgmental about someone's immediate reaction to a scenario you will never, ever find yourself in.
Could not agree more. I have no idea what the parents are like as characters, but his world has been turned upside down and in a devastating way, with that announcement.
Well that is exactly the point, as far as he is concerned it's his son's and his family's world that have been turned upside down, there is not a single thought for the real victim or her family in his mind even though his son was clearly up to his neck in the most heinous of crimes imaginable. For me that tells me everything about his character that I need to know.
You expect any reasonable, normal parent's first thoughts not to be about their own child?
I would say that any reasonable normal parents would attempt to offer solace and comfort to their child in those circumstances.
Rather than slow handclapping and calling the jury and gardai scumbags. But maybe thats just me.
I am going to leave this here as I find people empathising with this behaviour really distasteful.
Maybe the child's behaviour is reflecting the parents' behaviour displayed in court?
Unaccepting of authority and a disregard for other people
Without all the requoting; I'd agree with you Keyser
Shut it down until the sentencing? Very depressing.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 12:25:19 PM
They weren't best mates. Boy B might have thought they were but Boy A made it clear they weren't.
The fact he said he laughed it off isn't what matters. What matters is whether the members of the jury believed this or not. Evidently they didn't.
According to the IT article that was the other way round, Boy A described them as best friends, B distance lad himself. Consistent with his lies though.
Heartbreaking to read that article
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriégel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570?mode=amp
Incredibly depressing when you read how much bullying Anastasia and other young people have been exposed to even before this happening to her. I know of 3 children around my oldest child's age that are leaving or have left 'good' grammar schools in the last couple of years because they have been bullied, 1 of which his mother found out about the bullying when she found a suicide note. My wife spoke to our son on this, have you ever been bullied? do you know of any of this sort of thing going on on the school bus etc.? would you tell anyone/do anything if you did see any? God forbid any of my children would ever be a bully, I hope and think not but I am sure everyone thinks there child never would.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:32:19 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 20, 2019, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on June 20, 2019, 03:11:43 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
It's very easy to be judgmental about someone's immediate reaction to a scenario you will never, ever find yourself in.
Could not agree more. I have no idea what the parents are like as characters, but his world has been turned upside down and in a devastating way, with that announcement.
Well that is exactly the point, as far as he is concerned it's his son's and his family's world that have been turned upside down, there is not a single thought for the real victim or her family in his mind even though his son was clearly up to his neck in the most heinous of crimes imaginable. For me that tells me everything about his character that I need to know.
You expect any reasonable, normal parent's first thoughts not to be about their own child?
You'd think they'd have had plenty of time to mull over the likely outcome of being found guilty. Any reasonable, normal parent would have probably prepared for such a verdict. The da is a complete sc**bag, the poor girls parents having to see his pathetic behaviour. That's no way to get on, hopefully he gets a nice fine to rub salt into his "wounds".
Inverted commas? Are you suggesting they're not real wounds?!
Have some people here got insider knowledge of Boy B's dad, or are comments like scum bag solely based on his immediate reaction after the verdict?
Nothing like an ignorant vigilante mob in full flow.
Seems some of the cnuts posted another lad's photo as one of the pair.
3 years in jail for the person(s) who put up an image of an innocent young boy as guilty of murder on Facebook. Really disgusting on top of disgusting stuff.
Quote from: Rudi on June 20, 2019, 09:18:04 PM
3 years in jail for the person(s) who put up an image of an innocent young boy as guilty of murder on Facebook. Really disgusting on top of disgusting stuff.
No. That type of protection is only for the perpetrators of serious crimes.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 20, 2019, 08:22:19 PM
Nothing like an ignorant vigilante mob in full flow.
Seems some of the cnuts posted another lad's photo as one of the pair.
What exactly are you saying here Rossfan? What did you expect to happen?
All this post trial is bullshit. The only thing that matters is that girl was destroyed. Everything else is noise by comparison. Everything. That lad that was posted is not going to gaol and if he can sue the idiot that did him he should go for it.
Let all that stuff play out it's course but the bottom line is that a 14 year old girl was murdered and nothing else matters f**k all in comparison to that. I have zero compassion for the families of A and B. Let them get on with it and the revulsion and hate they will get - for a while. It will only be for a while. That girl gone is for ever.
Zero compassion for the families of the two boys? Really? The mothers? The siblings? None of them have done a thing and their worlds are destroyed.
Quote from: gallsman on June 21, 2019, 05:11:41 AM
Zero compassion for the families of the two boys? Really? The mothers? The siblings? None of them have done a thing and their worlds are destroyed.
They have to live with their actions and lies
They destroyed that girl
Wouldn't be too fond of this naming these boys The law is there for a reason and should be upheld and protected.
Any1 know what the story is when they turn 18? Can they be named then?
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on June 21, 2019, 06:51:45 AM
Quote from: gallsman on June 21, 2019, 05:11:41 AM
Zero compassion for the families of the two boys? Really? The mothers? The siblings? None of them have done a thing and their worlds are destroyed.
They have to live with their actions and lies
They destroyed that girl
The mothers did? The siblings?
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 21, 2019, 07:01:57 AM
Wouldn't be too fond of this naming these boys The law is there for a reason and should be upheld and protected.
Any1 know what the story is when they turn 18? Can they be named then?
No dont think so. A son of well known criminal got put away for stabbing a young lad to death in Dublin while under the age of 18. As far as i know he is over 18 now and has never been named.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on June 21, 2019, 06:51:45 AM
Quote from: gallsman on June 21, 2019, 05:11:41 AM
Zero compassion for the families of the two boys? Really? The mothers? The siblings? None of them have done a thing and their worlds are destroyed.
They have to live with their actions and lies
They destroyed that girl
Wouldn't go as far as they destroyed her. They have however facilitated their sons' actions by going along with their lies.
Parental negligence has been bandied about too.
I have no interest in these murderers or their families. There are enough psychologists out there who can spend their time analysing how and why this came to pass. These lads will get a second chance, but Anna won't be so lucky. No time served can ever equate to the death sentence they gave to that girl. The focus is all wrong in my opinion. We should be piecing together the fabric of Anna's life and learning more about her and what made her so susceptible. Giving these murderers all the oxygen is only ever going to facilitate another attack.
Quote from: Ambrose on June 20, 2019, 01:13:44 PM
Is it Boy A or B's father who is alleged to be a member of AGS? Or is it the usual twitter bull?
Well the rumour was that it was A, but it was a "guard". Whether that was police or prison seems split 50/50 (before/during the trial most were saying prison, but not so after).
But then again B was supposed to be of eastern european heritage, but that seems to have been twitter bull.
I haven't seen the names or pictures of the boys, but it seems A's name is a common one, and if you search it and Leixlip, you get images of another boy with the same name from a nearby town, and his pic has been doing the rounds as well as the real one.
I personally agree with those who think the reaction to B's father's outburst was way OTT. The Gardai did an amazing job to get him convicted, given the lack of evidence they had to start with on him. If you look at it from the father's perspective, believing that B was coerced by the bigger, stronger Boy A, then you could see how he may have believed this was a complete stitch up job by the Gardai and anyone would be angry in that situation regarding their child.
But B's father doesn't come across well in the Irish Times detailed report. When the police came to the door to interview the boy, he ignored them and let the mother deal with it and just went to bed. He also didn't accompany the child to the interviews, again, left to mother. And when the police first got B's surname, they found it in the Pulse system. Boy B had never been before the courts before, so maybe his father had. Although there are innocent ways you get on the Pulse system also, e.g. traffic incident, witness to something, etc.
Also stuff going round that complaints had been made previously to the school about A and B bullying others, but nothing done about it.
But as you say, everything has to be taken with pinch of salt given "usual twitter bull"
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 21, 2019, 07:01:57 AM
Wouldn't be too fond of this naming these boys The law is there for a reason and should be upheld and protected.
Any1 know what the story is when they turn 18? Can they be named then?
The law is there to protect the identities of the families as opposed to the perpetrators. Infact anyone who is naming them / sharing photos online could actually well help Boy B in his seemingly inevitable appeal - 'unfair trial' etc.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 21, 2019, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 21, 2019, 07:01:57 AM
Wouldn't be too fond of this naming these boys The law is there for a reason and should be upheld and protected.
Any1 know what the story is when they turn 18? Can they be named then?
The law is there to protect the identities of the families as opposed to the perpetrators. Infact anyone who is naming them / sharing photos online could actually well help Boy B in his seemingly inevitable appeal - 'unfair trial' etc.
Any sharing of information now will have no bearing on an appeal. Anything shared now would not compromise the jury and the appeal can only be on a point of law. The likely appeal points will arise out of the ruling by the judge not to allow the psychological report in, possibly some stuff that may have arisen in a voir dire that was not before the jury and sometimes is not reported on, possible questions over the detention and nature of the questioning by AGS, stuff like that. After the fact stuff like sharing his name/picture on-line will not impact any appeal.
Excuse my ignorance but what is AGS?
The guards.
The media made a mistake reporting the father's reaction.
This was not a normal trial. Children murdered a child and public revulsion levels were already high.
Driving a family into hiding serves nobody .
Quote from: gallsman on June 21, 2019, 11:50:42 AM
The guards.
Oops. Thanks for that. Agree with your sentiments on this thread by the way
Quote from: seafoid on June 21, 2019, 11:57:47 AM
The media made a mistake reporting the father's reaction.
This was not a normal trial. Children murdered a child and public revulsion levels were already high.
Driving a family into hiding serves nobody .
Maybe the father should have thought of that before he carried on in the way he did. He's not a child.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 21, 2019, 10:16:34 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 21, 2019, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 21, 2019, 07:01:57 AM
Wouldn't be too fond of this naming these boys The law is there for a reason and should be upheld and protected.
Any1 know what the story is when they turn 18? Can they be named then?
The law is there to protect the identities of the families as opposed to the perpetrators. Infact anyone who is naming them / sharing photos online could actually well help Boy B in his seemingly inevitable appeal - 'unfair trial' etc.
Any sharing of information now will have no bearing on an appeal. Anything shared now would not compromise the jury and the appeal can only be on a point of law. The likely appeal points will arise out of the ruling by the judge not to allow the psychological report in, possibly some stuff that may have arisen in a voir dire that was not before the jury and sometimes is not reported on, possible questions over the detention and nature of the questioning by AGS, stuff like that. After the fact stuff like sharing his name/picture on-line will not impact any appeal.
I work with a woman here who has looked up Boy B and feels sorry for him because she's seen him in his uniform.
I agree with your points regarding what points an appeal could take under, but of course revealing information on him / pictures could compromise a jury as above. She's a normal woman with kids that age - it would take a pretty cold hearted b**** not to feel something.
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 21, 2019, 02:01:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 21, 2019, 11:57:47 AM
The media made a mistake reporting the father's reaction.
This was not a normal trial. Children murdered a child and public revulsion levels were already high.
Driving a family into hiding serves nobody .
Maybe the father should have thought of that before he carried on in the way he did. He's not a child.
It is not a crime to have a temper
This is probably a privacy issue
The media messed it up
Quote from: seafoid on June 21, 2019, 02:07:05 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 21, 2019, 02:01:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 21, 2019, 11:57:47 AM
The media made a mistake reporting the father's reaction.
This was not a normal trial. Children murdered a child and public revulsion levels were already high.
Driving a family into hiding serves nobody .
Maybe the father should have thought of that before he carried on in the way he did. He's not a child.
It is not a crime to have a temper
This is probably a privacy issue
The media messed it up
After the verdict, a barrister pal of mine texted me that he heard "the father had plenty to say to the jury and guards". I checked RTE and Irish Times and while they referred to some reactions they didn't mention this at all. I then listened to Newstalk and the court reporter actually discussed the reaction of all the key parties. In relation to this father, he just said he was upset and walked out the room, closed the door quite hard, but returned a short time later. That was it.
So I think there was an initial plan to play it down in the mainstream media. But presumably the more tabloid elements (Mail, Indo, Star, etc) decided to go full disclosure, then everyone had to.
His reaction was normal, he's human for God's sake.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on June 21, 2019, 03:31:25 PM
His reaction was normal, he's human for God's sake.
Referring to the Gardaí and the court as scumbags is normal? I hope not.
While, thankfully, neither of us knows what actually constitutes as 'normal' behaviour in such situations I'm pretty sure many people would reacted similarly if they felt that their child was being subjected to a miscarriage of justice
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on June 21, 2019, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 21, 2019, 11:50:42 AM
The guards.
Oops. Thanks for that. Agree with your sentiments on this thread by the way
As do I, I have a hard time with the inability of some to understand the multiple layers of devastation and complexity here and that having empathy for the other victims of this horrible circumstance in NO WAY implies a lack of understanding and thought to the heart shattering loss and brutal truth suffered by the Kriegel family at the hands of what are still children themselves.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 21, 2019, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 21, 2019, 07:01:57 AM
Wouldn't be too fond of this naming these boys The law is there for a reason and should be upheld and protected.
Any1 know what the story is when they turn 18? Can they be named then?
The law is there to protect the identities of the families as opposed to the perpetrators. Infact anyone who is naming them / sharing photos online could actually well help Boy B in his seemingly inevitable appeal - 'unfair trial' etc.
The law is there to protect the child not anyone else... I'm well in favour of this no matter what the crime.
It seems like the anonymity extends for life tho which I'm not sure about...
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 21, 2019, 02:01:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 21, 2019, 11:57:47 AM
The media made a mistake reporting the father's reaction.
This was not a normal trial. Children murdered a child and public revulsion levels were already high.
Driving a family into hiding serves nobody .
Maybe the father should have thought of that before he carried on in the way he did. He's not a child.
His 14 year old son had just been sentenced to life in prison for murder of a 13 year old girl. It's not a normal day so I wouldn't expect "normal" behaviour. We can only but aspire to your level of perfection.
Quote from: Hound on June 21, 2019, 02:30:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 21, 2019, 02:07:05 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 21, 2019, 02:01:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 21, 2019, 11:57:47 AM
The media made a mistake reporting the father's reaction.
This was not a normal trial. Children murdered a child and public revulsion levels were already high.
Driving a family into hiding serves nobody .
Maybe the father should have thought of that before he carried on in the way he did. He's not a child.
It is not a crime to have a temper
This is probably a privacy issue
The media messed it up
After the verdict, a barrister pal of mine texted me that he heard "the father had plenty to say to the jury and guards". I checked RTE and Irish Times and while they referred to some reactions they didn't mention this at all. I then listened to Newstalk and the court reporter actually discussed the reaction of all the key parties. In relation to this father, he just said he was upset and walked out the room, closed the door quite hard, but returned a short time later. That was it.
So I think there was an initial plan to play it down in the mainstream media. But presumably the more tabloid elements (Mail, Indo, Star, etc) decided to go full disclosure, then everyone had to.
The 2 boys are very valuable to the tabloids. They are more odious than Joe what's his name who murdered his wife , the scissor sisters and the other " evil killers" regularly featured in those papers . Crime porn sells papers . The fact that boy B's father lost the plot is a bonus.
there should have been a reporting ban on this whole trial if you ask me
two minors being tried
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on June 21, 2019, 06:19:44 PM
there should have been a reporting ban on this whole trial if you ask me
two minors being tried
I agree
I strongly disagree. The world needs to know about the dangers that lurk around every corner. This happened and a 14 year old girl is dead because of it. Their age makes it more unpalatable, but it shouldn't detract from the depravity of the crime. If anything, it should act as a warning to all that even 13 year olds can do stuff like this. We have to accept that some 13 year olds know far too much about things that shouldn't interest them. Whose fault that is is debatable, but the fact is they do, and sometimes act on it. I have no interest in living in a world where I'm not aware of who or what is out there. What good could that possibly serve?
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 21, 2019, 02:02:40 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 21, 2019, 10:16:34 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on June 21, 2019, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 21, 2019, 07:01:57 AM
Wouldn't be too fond of this naming these boys The law is there for a reason and should be upheld and protected.
Any1 know what the story is when they turn 18? Can they be named then?
The law is there to protect the identities of the families as opposed to the perpetrators. Infact anyone who is naming them / sharing photos online could actually well help Boy B in his seemingly inevitable appeal - 'unfair trial' etc.
Any sharing of information now will have no bearing on an appeal. Anything shared now would not compromise the jury and the appeal can only be on a point of law. The likely appeal points will arise out of the ruling by the judge not to allow the psychological report in, possibly some stuff that may have arisen in a voir dire that was not before the jury and sometimes is not reported on, possible questions over the detention and nature of the questioning by AGS, stuff like that. After the fact stuff like sharing his name/picture on-line will not impact any appeal.
I work with a woman here who has looked up Boy B and feels sorry for him because she's seen him in his uniform.
Evil takes many forms. He is scum. End of.
Quote from: Puckoon on June 21, 2019, 04:36:51 PM
I have a hard time with the inability of some to understand the multiple layers of devastation and complexity here and that having empathy for the other victims of this horrible circumstance in NO WAY implies a lack of understanding and thought to the heart shattering loss and brutal truth suffered by the Kriegel family at the hands of what are still children themselves.
An excellent summation of my own thoughts exactly.
Rubbish. Everyone understands the complexity of it. People are entitled to be outraged in whatever measure or direction they feel. Some will have a lot more sympathy for the boys and their families than I ever could. I can live with that, but don't dare try to say the rest of us don't get it
https://youtu.be/vOzbqY1ABwQ
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 07:05:56 PM
Inverted commas? Are you suggesting they're not real wounds?!
Compared to Ana's parents' wounds? Yes. This is a man who waited for the judge to leave before having his hissy fit towards the guards and the jury. I have little sympathy for him.
There are no major complexities to this case, unless you're a psychologist. It's a classic case of a innocent victim of bullying being targeted by two sadistic, cowardly rats.
Quote from: general_lee on June 22, 2019, 11:22:27 AM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 07:05:56 PM
Inverted commas? Are you suggesting they're not real wounds?!
Compared to Ana's parents' wounds? Yes. This is a man who waited for the judge to leave before having his hissy fit towards the guards and the jury. I have little sympathy for him.
There are no major complexities to this case, unless you're a psychologist. It's a classic case of a innocent victim of bullying being targeted by two sadistic, cowardly rats.
Compared to Ana's wounds? Who's making that comparison or asking anyone to? Only you ffs. Giving an answer to a question you weren't asked as some form of indignant retort. Brilliant.
Quote from: gallsman on June 22, 2019, 01:23:20 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 22, 2019, 11:22:27 AM
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2019, 07:05:56 PM
Inverted commas? Are you suggesting they're not real wounds?!
Compared to Ana's parents' wounds? Yes. This is a man who waited for the judge to leave before having his hissy fit towards the guards and the jury. I have little sympathy for him.
There are no major complexities to this case, unless you're a psychologist. It's a classic case of a innocent victim of bullying being targeted by two sadistic, cowardly rats.
Compared to Ana's wounds? Who's making that comparison or asking anyone to? Only you ffs. Giving an answer to a question you weren't asked as some form of indignant retort. Brilliant.
Eh? All I'm saying is Boy B's daddy doesn't deserve much sympathy, not from me. For him to get on like that after the verdict was pretty low, especially for her parents having sat through the entire trial.
I asked whether you believed the wounds were real as you put the word in inverted commas. This was an absolute, yes or no question. There was no element of relativity in it.
When you answered, you for some reason brought up a comparison with Ana's wounds, one that a) wasn't part of the question you were asked and b) isn't something that anyone on this thread has attempted to claim or imply. If you don't understand that, then I suggest we don't pursue it any further.
Ana's parents wounds. Re-read it you sanctimonious numpty.
Quote from: general_lee on June 23, 2019, 03:29:29 AM
Ana's parents wounds. Re-read it you sanctimonious numpty.
The point stands you absolute muppet. Nobody asked you anything about Ana's parents wounds. It was a yes or no question about whether you thought his wounds were real, as your use of inverted commas implied otherwise. For some unknown reason, you decided to draw a comparison with Ana's parents' wounds, when nobody was so much as attempting to claim there was anything of the sort to be made.
You're wasting your time here Chief. There are a number of posters on this Board that possess a 'lynch mob' mentality. This is what you're up against here.
Quote from: gallsman on June 23, 2019, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 23, 2019, 03:29:29 AM
Ana's parents wounds. Re-read it you sanctimonious numpty.
The point stands you absolute muppet. Nobody asked you anything about Ana's parents wounds. It was a yes or no question about whether you thought his wounds were real, as your use of inverted commas implied otherwise. For some unknown reason, you decided to draw a comparison with Ana's parents' wounds, when nobody was so much as attempting to claim there was anything of the sort to be made.
It's a f**king discussion board you reptile. I was drawing a comparison between their dignified manner in court and that of Boy B calling the jury scumbags, you know, while they are still there. Sorry I felt compelled to do so with out being asked, just kinda thought it relevant to the whole love-in with the perpetrators' parents.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on June 23, 2019, 07:28:17 AM
You're wasting your time here Chief. There are a number of posters on this Board that possess a 'lynch mob' mentality. This is what you're up against here.
Not calling for anyone to be lynched mate, just don't sympathise with scumbags
Quote from: general_lee on June 23, 2019, 11:59:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on June 23, 2019, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 23, 2019, 03:29:29 AM
Ana's parents wounds. Re-read it you sanctimonious numpty.
The point stands you absolute muppet. Nobody asked you anything about Ana's parents wounds. It was a yes or no question about whether you thought his wounds were real, as your use of inverted commas implied otherwise. For some unknown reason, you decided to draw a comparison with Ana's parents' wounds, when nobody was so much as attempting to claim there was anything of the sort to be made.
It's a f**king discussion board you reptile. I was drawing a comparison between their dignified manner in court and that of Boy B calling the jury scumbags, you know, while they are still there. Sorry I felt compelled to do so with out being asked, just kinda thought it relevant to the whole love-in with the perpetrators' parents.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on June 23, 2019, 07:28:17 AM
You're wasting your time here Chief. There are a number of posters on this Board that possess a 'lynch mob' mentality. This is what you're up against here.
Not calling for anyone to be lynched mate, just don't sympathise with scumbags
You do know the difference between empathy and sympathy?
"Love-in"
You're pathetic.
Quote from: general_lee on June 23, 2019, 11:59:38 AM
Quote from: gallsman on June 23, 2019, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 23, 2019, 03:29:29 AM
Ana's parents wounds. Re-read it you sanctimonious numpty.
The point stands you absolute muppet. Nobody asked you anything about Ana's parents wounds. It was a yes or no question about whether you thought his wounds were real, as your use of inverted commas implied otherwise. For some unknown reason, you decided to draw a comparison with Ana's parents' wounds, when nobody was so much as attempting to claim there was anything of the sort to be made.
It's a f**king discussion board you reptile. I was drawing a comparison between their dignified manner in court and that of Boy B calling the jury scumbags, you know, while they are still there. Sorry I felt compelled to do so with out being asked, just kinda thought it relevant to the whole love-in with the perpetrators' parents.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on June 23, 2019, 07:28:17 AM
You're wasting your time here Chief. There are a number of posters on this Board that possess a 'lynch mob' mentality. This is what you're up against here.
Not calling for anyone to be lynched mate, just don't sympathise with scumbags
How do you know Boy B's dad is a sc**bag?
I don't see why they shouldn't be named. Were they tried in an adult court and are they subject to an adult sentence? Always find it strange how there is supposed to be no grey areas in the law regarding age yet you have children who commit horrible crimes (and should be punished severely) yet they are tried as adults. Surely if you are a child then you get tried as a child irrelevant of the crime.
They haven't been tried as adults
Quote from: armaghniac on June 23, 2019, 06:38:42 PM
They haven't been tried as adults
What court were they tried in? How long are they likely to get sentence wise?
Quote from: nrico2006 on June 23, 2019, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 23, 2019, 06:38:42 PM
They haven't been tried as adults
What court were they tried in? How long are they likely to get sentence wise?
They may get a long sentence, but a life sentence is not automatic as it is for adults.
Is it indefinite detention with a review date?
Quote from: Rossfan on June 23, 2019, 11:42:46 PM
Is it indefinite detention with a review date?
Judge has discretion to apply any sentence he sees fit, up to life.
For the most comparable case in Ireland which occurred around 2000/2001 in the midlands, a 14/15 year old boy (who had murdered a younger boy) got a life sentence, but to be reviewed after 10 years. He was released after serving 12 years.
Quote from: Hound on June 24, 2019, 07:42:48 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 23, 2019, 11:42:46 PM
Is it indefinite detention with a review date?
Judge has discretion to apply any sentence he sees fit, up to life.
For the most comparable case in Ireland which occurred around 2000/2001 in the midlands, a 14/15 year old boy (who had murdered a younger boy) got a life sentence, but to be reviewed after 10 years. He was released after serving 12 years.
Was that the Darren Goodwin case? I think he was named at the time, wonder why that was?
Quote from: Hound on June 24, 2019, 07:42:48 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 23, 2019, 11:42:46 PM
Is it indefinite detention with a review date?
Judge has discretion to apply any sentence he sees fit, up to life.
For the most comparable case in Ireland which occurred around 2000/2001 in the midlands, a 14/15 year old boy (who had murdered a younger boy) got a life sentence, but to be reviewed after 10 years. He was released after serving 12 years.
I think the likely review will be 12 for boy B and 14 - 15 for boy A. Depending on how they get on in the juvenile set up will determine where they go as adults. All things going well they will likely do most of the time as adults in an open prison environment.
Boy A - Life with review after 12 years.
Boy B - 15 years with review after 8 years.
Will move to adult prison upon turning 18, will remain right to anonymity.
There was an conviction for attempted murder by a 15 year old in the papers yesterday.
The Stephanie Ng case :
"The boy also told the doctor he was watching extreme pornography before the attack without the knowledge of his parents and that he had been watching adult content since the age of 11 or 12."
Boy A
"Gardaí told the court, in the absence of the jury, an examination of two phones found in the bedroom of Boy A revealed over 12,000 images, the vast majority of which were of a pornographic nature. "
"Mr Grehan said that search words on this phone included "child porn", "animal porn", "horse porn" and "dark web" and these searches dated back to November 2017.
The court heard that two URLs brought users to a website featuring pornographic videos, which had the titles 'Cute Teens F***ed hard' and "Anastasia has the perfect body for f***ing"."
Has there been any follow up on the accepted evidence that "Ana was savagely bullied inside and outside school"?
Quote from: Main Street on November 05, 2019, 07:08:29 PM
Has there been any follow up on the accepted evidence that "Ana was savagely bullied inside and outside school"?
https://www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-mother-concern-4648659-Jun2019/
That is horrific, that poor girl, modern society with social media and what is available on the internet has really messed up a generation. Shocking how these two have the right to anonymity.
Quote from: t_mac on November 06, 2019, 09:39:28 AM
That is horrific, that poor girl, modern society with social media and what is available on the internet has really messed up a generation. Shocking how these two have the right to anonymity.
Kinda agree, but should their families inner and wider be held responsible for the backlash? Obviously the names are very much out there now anyway but should they move etc....they don't really deserve that stigma. Maybe B's Da as he seems like a right bollox but you get the point.
They probably should be named at 18, I don't like the idea that these lads will be out mid twenties and free to date/marry with relative anonymity. Something just not right about that for me.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 06, 2019, 10:04:58 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 06, 2019, 09:39:28 AM
That is horrific, that poor girl, modern society with social media and what is available on the internet has really messed up a generation. Shocking how these two have the right to anonymity.
Kinda agree, but should their families inner and wider be held responsible for the backlash? Obviously the names are very much out there now anyway but should they move etc....they don't really deserve that stigma. Maybe B's Da as he seems like a right bollox but you get the point.
They probably should be named at 18, I don't like the idea that these lads will be out mid twenties and free to date/marry with relative anonymity. Something just not right about that for me.
I agree, can't understand how someone that cruel is allowed to live their lives in peace.
Quote from: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 08:28:51 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 05, 2019, 07:08:29 PM
Has there been any follow up on the accepted evidence that "Ana was savagely bullied inside and outside school"?
https://www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-mother-concern-4648659-Jun2019/
I read something similar to that account of her bullying in the excellent IT article by Conor Gallagher. Ana had been the subject of persistent cruel bullying by older children. The secondary school management were informed of this before she started first year, however this action had zero affect, the bullying continue unabated and even worsened. According to the statement of boy B, that's why she became their easy and predictable target. That she was to blame for attracting the bullying eg by the way she dressed, and that she was a high profile target of bullying made her stand out as the perfect victim for these evil-intentioned boys who took the bullying to another violent level. What procedures did the school management follow, if any? There is no question about duty of care, school management are mandated to follow effective procedures when directly informed of bullying behavior, not to mention alarm bell incidents of self harm.
And it's not as if this neighborhood has rampant crime and generational meth-amphetamine drug addiction.
Much of the recent discussion has focused on the reasons why 2 boys would enact such extreme violence but very little about the culture of bullying by teenagers and the evident incompetence and even cowardice of secondary school teaching establishment in facing up to the culture of bullying. This aspect of social, ethical and moral education is much more important than academic exam orientated trivia.
Quote from: Main Street on November 06, 2019, 12:11:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 08:28:51 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 05, 2019, 07:08:29 PM
Has there been any follow up on the accepted evidence that "Ana was savagely bullied inside and outside school"?
https://www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-mother-concern-4648659-Jun2019/
I read something similar to that account of her bullying in the excellent IT article by Conor Gallagher. Ana had been the subject of persistent cruel bullying by older children. The secondary school management were informed of this before she started first year, however this action had zero affect, the bullying continue unabated and even worsened. According to the statement of boy B, that's why she became their easy and predictable target. That she was to blame for attracting the bullying eg by the way she dressed, and that she was a high profile target of bullying made her stand out as the perfect victim for these evil-intentioned boys who took the bullying to another violent level. What procedures did the school management follow, if any? There is no question about duty of care, school management are mandated to follow effective procedures when directly informed of bullying behavior, not to mention alarm bell incidents of self harm.
And it's not as if this neighborhood has rampant crime and generational meth-amphetamine drug addiction.
Much of the recent discussion has focused on the reasons why 2 boys would enact such extreme violence but very little about the culture of bullying by teenagers and the evident incompetence and even cowardice of secondary school teaching establishment in facing up to the culture of bullying. This aspect of social, ethical and moral education is much more important than academic exam orientated trivia.
Very true, very well put.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 06, 2019, 10:04:58 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 06, 2019, 09:39:28 AM
That is horrific, that poor girl, modern society with social media and what is available on the internet has really messed up a generation. Shocking how these two have the right to anonymity.
Kinda agree, but should their families inner and wider be held responsible for the backlash? Obviously the names are very much out there now anyway but should they move etc....they don't really deserve that stigma. Maybe B's Da as he seems like a right bollox but you get the point.
They probably should be named at 18, I don't like the idea that these lads will be out mid twenties and free to date/marry with relative anonymity. Something just not right about that for me.
Reading about the English backpacker Grace Millane who was murdered in New Zealand. Strange that the 27 year old on trial for her murder cannot be named for legal reasons.
Anyone know if the school has said much about the bullying?
Quote from: Rudi on November 06, 2019, 12:22:22 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 06, 2019, 12:11:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 08:28:51 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 05, 2019, 07:08:29 PM
Has there been any follow up on the accepted evidence that "Ana was savagely bullied inside and outside school"?
https://www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-mother-concern-4648659-Jun2019/
I read something similar to that account of her bullying in the excellent IT article by Conor Gallagher. Ana had been the subject of persistent cruel bullying by older children. The secondary school management were informed of this before she started first year, however this action had zero affect, the bullying continue unabated and even worsened. According to the statement of boy B, that's why she became their easy and predictable target. That she was to blame for attracting the bullying eg by the way she dressed, and that she was a high profile target of bullying made her stand out as the perfect victim for these evil-intentioned boys who took the bullying to another violent level. What procedures did the school management follow, if any? There is no question about duty of care, school management are mandated to follow effective procedures when directly informed of bullying behavior, not to mention alarm bell incidents of self harm.
And it's not as if this neighborhood has rampant crime and generational meth-amphetamine drug addiction.
Much of the recent discussion has focused on the reasons why 2 boys would enact such extreme violence but very little about the culture of bullying by teenagers and the evident incompetence and even cowardice of secondary school teaching establishment in facing up to the culture of bullying. This aspect of social, ethical and moral education is much more important than academic exam orientated trivia.
Very true, very well put.
Thankfully Joe on Liveline is presently focussed on and discussing the bullying aspect of this whole tragedy in the secondary school and listeners' experience of the management of the bullying.
Some crimes are so heinous that the perps should never get out. I think in England they made the right call with Myra Hindley and and Ian Brady, letting them rot in prison until death. That was a far more fitting punishment than the quick release of hanging. I think they got it wrong with the killers of wee James Bulger, even though they were only 10 at the time. They should never have gotten out.
I don't believe in the death penalty, but life without parole should be an option for the truly evil cases.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 06, 2019, 05:42:22 PM
Some crimes are so heinous that the perps should never get out. I think in England they made the right call with Myra Hindley and and Ian Brady, letting them rot in prison until death. That was a far more fitting punishment than the quick release of hanging. I think they got it wrong with the killers of wee James Bulger, even though they were only 10 at the time. They should never have gotten out.
I don't believe in the death penalty, but life without parole should be an option for the truly evil cases.
How do think a school administration should respond to direct allegations of bullying? In this case the school did not respond, or were so pathetic in their response as to make no difference. The compulsary protocol is there on how every school should respond to allegations of bullying. The evidence is that those schools who do respond immediately and effectively, manage to cut it off at the pass, take the bully to task, empowering the one who was bullied. And there are those schools who do nothing, the bullying is officially enabled and the torure continues unchecked and unabated. Then after someone is killed, you have people who come online after the horse has bolted and talk about the death penalty deterrent.
Of course schools should do more about bullying and take it seriously. I know all about bullying, I was a victim of it myself for years. I went to a junior high school where they had a near-as-dammit zero tolerance policy on it. It was a violent place, but at least I knew I had some recourse for when something went wrong because I could trust the teachers to do something about it.
I then went to a senior high school (run by the Sisters of Mercy) where the nuns drew no distinction between the bullies and their victims. I reported my bullying to the nuns and their response was to give me a bollocking for being part of a group that engages in vandalism and violence, and held my books hostage until I coughed up the cost of fixing my locker that someone had damaged.
So yes, I think schools should be more like my junior high was and less like the senior high.
My comment was about appropriate sentencing once a crime has been committed. I think it's okay to discuss it in relation to a case like this.
Quote from: Main Street on November 06, 2019, 06:53:05 PM
Then after someone is killed, you have people who come online after the horse has bolted and talk about the death penalty deterrent.
Pretty weird take here.
Quote from: Main Street on November 06, 2019, 12:11:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 08:28:51 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 05, 2019, 07:08:29 PM
Has there been any follow up on the accepted evidence that "Ana was savagely bullied inside and outside school"?
https://www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-mother-concern-4648659-Jun2019/
I read something similar to that account of her bullying in the excellent IT article by Conor Gallagher. Ana had been the subject of persistent cruel bullying by older children. The secondary school management were informed of this before she started first year, however this action had zero affect, the bullying continue unabated and even worsened. According to the statement of boy B, that's why she became their easy and predictable target. That she was to blame for attracting the bullying eg by the way she dressed, and that she was a high profile target of bullying made her stand out as the perfect victim for these evil-intentioned boys who took the bullying to another violent level. What procedures did the school management follow, if any? There is no question about duty of care, school management are mandated to follow effective procedures when directly informed of bullying behavior, not to mention alarm bell incidents of self harm.
And it's not as if this neighborhood has rampant crime and generational meth-amphetamine drug addiction.
Much of the recent discussion has focused on the reasons why 2 boys would enact such extreme violence but very little about the culture of bullying by teenagers and the evident incompetence and even cowardice of secondary school teaching establishment in facing up to the culture of bullying. This aspect of social, ethical and moral education is much more important than academic exam orientated trivia.
The motive for the murder wasn't discovered during the court case. The worry is that the crime will be repeated. Social media and mobiles have broadened the scope and impact of chronic bullying . Extreme porn had some sort of a role in the development of Boy A's mental processes. There were a lot of disturbing aspects that should be researched. One year in Oberstown for the 2 costs €700 k. There is a lot at stake.
Quote from: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 07:43:25 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 06, 2019, 06:53:05 PM
Then after someone is killed, you have people who come online after the horse has bolted and talk about the death penalty deterrent.
Pretty weird take here.
Isn't it? Posting online after the fact is a strange way to complain about people posting online after the fact.
Quote from: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 08:50:57 PM
One year in Oberstown for the 2 costs €700 k. There is a lot at stake.
I know everything in Ireland costs x times more than normal, we are after all building the worlds most expensive hospital, albeit in the wrong place. But how in the name of Jaysus can it cost €700,000 to imprison two teenagers per year. I'm all for rehabilitation and re-education or whatever, but for 350 grand a year each I'd expect to be golfing at Mar-a-lago, with steak and lobster every night and a go on the First Lady at least once a week.
Madness Ted.
Quote from: Ambrose on November 06, 2019, 11:09:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 08:50:57 PM
One year in Oberstown for the 2 costs €700 k. There is a lot at stake.
I know everything in Ireland costs x times more than normal, we are after all building the worlds most expensive hospital, albeit in the wrong place. But how in the name of Jaysus can it cost €700,000 to imprison two teenagers per year. I'm all for rehabilitation and re-education or whatever, but for 350 grand a year each I'd expect to be golfing at Mar-a-lago, with steak and lobster every night and a go on the First Lady at least once a week.
Madness Ted.
Well you'd need 5 staff just to provide a guard 24/7/365. People of that age group are required to attend school so you'd have to have teachers as well. Then, of course, there are other cooks and the like needed.
If you just put them up in a thousand euro a night hotel they would never leave and you wouldn't need a guard.