Northern nationalists versus ?

[Milltown Row2]

Are you basing this on your knowledge?

How many Nationalist in the north claim to be British? That sounds completely wrong...

If there is a 50/50 split in the north or close to, that would make 900,000 wanting to be staying in the union, out of an island population of 6 million is that a sizeable amount?

As for 'youse' abandoning the north, it wasn't you personally, so don't take it personally, the government did and that's history, has been like that for us for 100 years

[bennydorano]

Ah, so you do want oppression of women!

You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community

Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness

Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.

That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA 

Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.

The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.

Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course

The "elite", or something

To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian

You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.

You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.

So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?

Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?

You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.

A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.

[tonto1888]

But it's not a lie

Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north

But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics

Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you

After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted

More hypocrisy

You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.

The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.

I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he  is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else  in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism ,  but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as  an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly resist any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness in the meantime.

It's hard not to have disdain for people who shower you with furious disdain merely for pointing out that the PIRA campaign was an abomination, or for pointing out that Margaret Tebbit, the wife of a Tory politician, was horrifically disabled by a bomb planted by PIRA murderers

That's the sort of healthy disdain everybody should have

Not having such leaves one open to supporting more abominations in the future

Very strange comparison of my support for Dublin GAA with blood and soil nationalism

As it happens I am open to the notion of a split in Dublin as long as it is accompanied by amalgamations of other counties

Just out of interest do you condemn loyalist and British army atrocities with the same vigour?

Why wouldn't I?

The problem with this forum and with that type of ultra-paranoid nationalist opinion is that if you class Patrick Magee as murdering scum than people automatically assume you're an apologist for murdering scum like Torrens Knight or the paras on Bloody Sunday or Wright and Fisher or Lee Clegg

Yet that couldn't be further from the truth - obviously

This is a problem this strain of northern nationalism has to seriously confront - this ultra-paranoid "you're with the PIRA or you're against the Catholic population" mentality

It's crazy - but that's what nationalism is - the mentality that if you're not with us 100% you're agin us as a people

It is one of the biggest stumbling blocks towards a united Ireland

Read what I've written about the DUP elsewhere and tell me whether its complimentary or not

The DUP is an ultra-nationalist party, the exact same pathology of the mind as Trump and Putin, the exact same eternal victimhood mentality

The best thing the north could ever do is to abandon Troubles politics and ditch the DUP/Sinn Fein cartel

But "themmuns" vote DUP because "youseuns" vote SF, and youseuns now vote SF because themmuns vote DUP

Chicken and egg

It's happening down here too

Fine Gael are happy with this because they see it as a way to maintain relevance, to be part of a new cartel against Sinn Fein and to cut Fianna Fail out

As I said previously, we're only just getting over Civil War politics now, a replacement of that with Troubles politics and rabid pro-united Ireland nationalist politics will be a disaster for politics in the Republic in general

But it looks like it's going to happen, and that means hard truths have to be confronted

I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live  regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.

There aren't people defending murdering Loyalist and British Army scum on here

But there are some people defending their equivalent on the other side or offering weasel worded justifications for what they did

This island contains a large number of people who class themselves as British, not Irish

Any future form of a united Ireland will have to take this into account very, very, very carefully

On this thread and elsewhere, a common refrain from northern nationalists to people from the Republic is "youse abandoned us"

Well, those people who do not class themselves as Irish are going to feel exactly the same way if any form of united Ireland ever happens - that they have been abandoned

And this is a problem

A problem which can only be approached by conciliation, understanding and recognition

My feeling is that there is a large rump of Irish nationalist opinion which simply does not understand this, and that a future united Ireland will be used to assert supremacy over Protestant Unionists

If Irish Catholics are aiming "West Brit" and "Ruth Dudley Edwards" jibes at fellow Irish Catholics, and they have been for years, what hope is there that Protestant Unionists will be treated any better by that rump, probably not much I'd say

I've yet to see loyalists and brits condemned with as much by vigour by those who condemn the PIRA. Of course unionists and those who class themselves as British will be an important part of a UI, and would add to it. I don't know how to convince them of that though. I would imagine some don't want to be convinced and would rather listen to the likes of Bryson or RDE about the pitfalls of it all. Personally I think a UI is a great idea but will only ever remain an idea because realistically I don't see it working. And SF know that

[GetOverTheBar]

I expect this thread to be fireworks.

Prediction of 50+ pages unless it gets locked!

[Milltown Row2]

It can work, I know plenty who from a unionist background wouldn't be too difficult to convince, if the right conditions were in place...

It needs a generational period of time to merge in, plenty of sweetners also. But with how good the Irish economy is doing it shouldn't be a problem

[weareros]

I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live  regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.

And what political party represents this benevolent nationalism?

I think a United Ireland would have 850,000 or so people who identify as British too and it's success would depend how empathetic nationalists were to them. It's hard to be convinced that this would be the case.
Irish nationalism every bit as narrow as the British and USA models, it just mutates into different forms. Sinn Fein basically campaigned against joining EU and every major EU treaty and up until Brexit had much in common with Farage. Thankfully they were not a strong political force then and would have kept Ireland in 19th century.  The 3 major parties in Ireland (FF, FG and Sinn Fein) all trace their roots to 1905 Sinn Fein and that was a party filled with every type of narrow minded Catholic bigot you could find. One of them, Eamon Devalera, did untold damage to any type of social progress. Those so called patriots built a Catholic, male dominated, priest ridden state that is only now starting to recover. The type of state that threw illegitimate children into septic tanks, that sold them abroad, banished unwed mothers to laundries, threw poor children into Industrial Schools - in the effort to maintain their ideal Catholic Ireland, where contraception was banned, divorce banned, women's rights banned, gay marriage banned, where people lived in fear of the priest. I've not convinced any of the parties have left this ethos completely behind... though all have made some progress. I don't think we have a party that could lead a United Ireland. When the poll comes, I hope they have the good sense to step aside and let a representative group of people lead - and that should include straight, gay, men, women, trans, young people, travelers, Muslims, atheists, musicians, artists, and so on. Please not Mary Lou, Leo or Michéal.

[sid waddell]

Are you basing this on your knowledge?

How many Nationalist in the north claim to be British? That sounds completely wrong...

If there is a 50/50 split in the north or close to, that would make 900,000 wanting to be staying in the union, out of an island population of 6 million is that a sizeable amount?

As for 'youse' abandoning the north, it wasn't you personally, so don't take it personally, the government did and that's history, has been like that for us for 100 years

I'm basing it on the bleedin' obvious

There is a realistic chance of the UK breaking up in the near future

If it does so, it will be down to the votes of around 2 million Scottish people out of a total population in Britain of over 64 million people

One in seven on the island is a very sizable amount, especially when they are geographically concentrated

I am not comparing Unionists to ISIS, but ISIS grew from around half a dozen people

[tonto1888]

I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live  regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.

And what political party represents this benevolent nationalism?

I think a United Ireland would have 850,000 or so people who identify as British too and it's success would depend how empathetic nationalists were to them. It's hard to be convinced that this would be the case.
Irish nationalism every bit as narrow as the British and USA models, it just mutates into different forms. Sinn Fein basically campaigned against joining EU and every major EU treaty and up until Brexit had much in common with Farage. Thankfully they were not a strong political force then and would have kept Ireland in 19th century.  The 3 major parties in Ireland (FF, FG and Sinn Fein) all trace their roots to 1905 Sinn Fein and that was a party filled with every type of narrow minded Catholic bigot you could find. One of them, Eamon Devalera, did untold damage to any type of social progress. Those so called patriots built a Catholic, male dominated, priest ridden state that is only now starting to recover. The type of state that threw illegitimate children into septic tanks, that sold them abroad, banished unwed mothers to laundries, threw poor children into Industrial Schools - in the effort to maintain their ideal Catholic Ireland, where contraception was banned, divorce banned, women's rights banned, gay marriage banned, where people lived in fear of the priest. I've not convinced any of the parties have left this ethos completely behind... though all have made some progress. I don't think we have a party that could lead a United Ireland. When the poll comes, I hope they have the good sense to step aside and let a representative group of people lead - and that should include straight, gay, men, women, trans, young people, travelers, Muslims, atheists, musicians, artists, and so on. Please not Mary Lou, Leo or Michéal.

I disagree with your view on Irish nationalism. What I described myself as is nationalism to me.  It being xenophobic, Ireland for the Irish only. That's a load of shite and an idea that's needs to be opposed at every opportunity. I've no idea what party represents benevolent nationalism

[sid waddell]

I've yet to see loyalists and brits condemned with as much by vigour by those who condemn the PIRA.

That may be the case if you're talking about Ruth Dudley Edwards or the DUP

It is not the case for the majority of reasonable people on this island

Equally the case can be aimed at Sinn Fein, who rightly condemn British Army and Loyalist massacres, yet fail to condemn massacres on their own side

All this will go on as long people vote for these parties, it perpetuates tribalism, one sided condemnation and airbrushing of truth

This is about truth

The problem occurs when people see truth as "point scoring" or "bingo"

These are just buzzwords to excuse a mindless retreat into tribalism

[clonadmad]

Ah, so you do want oppression of women!

You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community

Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness

Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.

That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA 

Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.

The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.

Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course

The "elite", or something

To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian

You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.

You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.

So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?

Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?

You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.

A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.

You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"

Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?

I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't

[sid waddell]

I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live  regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.

And what political party represents this benevolent nationalism?

I think a United Ireland would have 850,000 or so people who identify as British too and it's success would depend how empathetic nationalists were to them. It's hard to be convinced that this would be the case.
Irish nationalism every bit as narrow as the British and USA models, it just mutates into different forms. Sinn Fein basically campaigned against joining EU and every major EU treaty and up until Brexit had much in common with Farage. Thankfully they were not a strong political force then and would have kept Ireland in 19th century.  The 3 major parties in Ireland (FF, FG and Sinn Fein) all trace their roots to 1905 Sinn Fein and that was a party filled with every type of narrow minded Catholic bigot you could find. One of them, Eamon Devalera, did untold damage to any type of social progress. Those so called patriots built a Catholic, male dominated, priest ridden state that is only now starting to recover. The type of state that threw illegitimate children into septic tanks, that sold them abroad, banished unwed mothers to laundries, threw poor children into Industrial Schools - in the effort to maintain their ideal Catholic Ireland, where contraception was banned, divorce banned, women's rights banned, gay marriage banned, where people lived in fear of the priest. I've not convinced any of the parties have left this ethos completely behind... though all have made some progress. I don't think we have a party that could lead a United Ireland. When the poll comes, I hope they have the good sense to step aside and let a representative group of people lead - and that should include straight, gay, men, women, trans, young people, travelers, Muslims, atheists, musicians, artists, and so on. Please not Mary Lou, Leo or Michéal.

I disagree with your view on Irish nationalism. What I described myself as is nationalism to me.  It being xenophobic, Ireland for the Irish only. That's a load of shite and an idea that's needs to be opposed at every opportunity. I've no idea what party represents benevolent nationalism

The correct terminology for those who want a new Ireland - ie. that any future united Ireland should be a new country, shorn of divisive symbols and tolerant, secular and pluralist, is Republicanism

In Ireland we have it arseways

We call Nationalists "Republicans" and we call Republicans "Nationalists"

The SDLP are Republican, Sinn Fein are Nationalist

[clonadmad]

The number of New Irish on the Island are greater than that of the Unionist population.

Just to give a little perspective on their diminishing numbers.

[tonto1888]

I've yet to see loyalists and brits condemned with as much by vigour by those who condemn the PIRA.

That may be the case if you're talking about Ruth Dudley Edwards or the DUP

It is not the case for the majority of reasonable people on this island

Equally the case can be aimed at Sinn Fein, who rightly condemn British Army and Loyalist massacres, yet fail to condemn massacres on their own side

All this will go on as long people vote for these parties, it perpetuates tribalism, one sided condemnation and airbrushing of truth

This is about truth

The problem occurs when people see truth as "point scoring" or "bingo"

These are just buzzwords to excuse a mindless retreat into tribalism

I was talking about this board. And, yeah it goes both ways.

[Orior]

Sid,

I appreciate your openness and honesty. As a northern nationalist myself, I have two choices in elections - SDLP or Sinn Fein. And sometimes only one, when the other steps aside. Therefore as an occasional voter of Sinn Fein in the north - am I tarred with the same brush?

PS. I am still trying to work out an appropriate title for this thread. Any ideas?

[sid waddell]

I've yet to see loyalists and brits condemned with as much by vigour by those who condemn the PIRA.

That may be the case if you're talking about Ruth Dudley Edwards or the DUP

It is not the case for the majority of reasonable people on this island

Equally the case can be aimed at Sinn Fein, who rightly condemn British Army and Loyalist massacres, yet fail to condemn massacres on their own side

All this will go on as long people vote for these parties, it perpetuates tribalism, one sided condemnation and airbrushing of truth

This is about truth

The problem occurs when people see truth as "point scoring" or "bingo"

These are just buzzwords to excuse a mindless retreat into tribalism

I was talking about this board. And, yeah it goes both ways.

I am unaware of anybody on this board who does not think Greysteel or Bloody Sunday or the Miami Showband massacre were nihilistic, evil abominations

So therefore the question of whether they were or not does not come up in conversation, because everybody agrees they were

If you were to go over to Arrse (it's a British Army discussion board), you would likely find different views

I have no doubt if I were to post there I would likely be branded as an IRA terrorist supporter, because I would run into implaccable Trump-like, pro-Union, pro-British Army, pro-Loyalist views