Brexit.

Started by T Fearon, November 01, 2015, 06:04:06 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Franko

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 04, 2018, 10:28:01 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 04, 2018, 10:05:48 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 04, 2018, 09:55:46 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 04, 2018, 09:46:05 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 04, 2018, 07:34:57 PM
Could well do, but I don't think there is a huge conspiracy, more of a opportunity to fill pockets from a disastrous situation

How does that humble pie taste?

Do you wash it down with that fiver-a-bottle piss you thought was wine?

Here's the thing Franko, in my household it actually makes no difference, so I'll wash it down with whatever bottle of wine I like, calling it disastrous is what it has become these past 2 years when people who get paid to negotiate a leave plan haven't a fecking clue..

I never voted it but hey you can't have your cake and eat it.. but If you're sleeping on the street Franko I'll get you a coffee  ;)

I can't hear you over the noise of your reversing bleeper.

No reversing as I never voted for it, and it may not happen and I said that at the start, so until it's done and sealed and I view the carnage I'll hold ultimate judgement  :o

Ah right.  So the whole "disastrous situation" thing was just an interim judgement then.

Lol... bleep bleep.

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 04, 2018, 07:18:53 PMI like her, ballsy bitch..

She's a power hungry witch who I wouldn't trust a nanometre, never mind an inch.

Was the same as home secretary. Her govt is trying every wee power grab they can. The process could be a lot smoother if she wasn't trying constantly trying to ride roughshod over democratic process (even putting aside my feelings on how useless representative democracy is, its better than the dictatorship she'd prefer).


As for the idea she is working to a secret and far-seeing plan of derailing Brexit - she could have accomplished the same with much less heartache if she'd stated 2 years ago "I will negotiate a deal, then put that deal to the people for their approval" - all of her actions reconcile with seeking more power rather than seeking to keep the UK in the EU through sleight of hand.
i usse an speelchekor

OgraAnDun

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 05, 2018, 10:06:28 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 04, 2018, 07:18:53 PMI like her, ballsy bitch..

She's a power hungry witch who I wouldn't trust a nanometre, never mind an inch.

Was the same as home secretary. Her govt is trying every wee power grab they can. The process could be a lot smoother if she wasn't trying constantly trying to ride roughshod over democratic process (even putting aside my feelings on how useless representative democracy is, its better than the dictatorship she'd prefer).


As for the idea she is working to a secret and far-seeing plan of derailing Brexit - she could have accomplished the same with much less heartache if she'd stated 2 years ago "I will negotiate a deal, then put that deal to the people for their approval" - all of her actions reconcile with seeking more power rather than seeking to keep the UK in the EU through sleight of hand.

I believe the rationale behind not announcing that at the start was that it would have given the hardliners the time to organise and plot against her.

johnnycool

Did anyone see the quivering chin on the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox when the vote to release the legal advice was passed.

Shifty..........

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 05, 2018, 11:43:21 AM
I believe the rationale behind not announcing that at the start was that it would have given the hardliners the time to organise and plot against her.

There isn't much the hardliners could have done - most of the house would have rounded on them for trying to force through a deal regardless of how good/bad it was for the country and regardless of whether the people actually liked the deal that was (at that point in time) negotiated.

I'm still of the opinion she's a power hungry witch. Too many power grabs over too many years to be so easily convinced otherwise.
i usse an speelchekor

weareros

Quote from: johnnycool on December 05, 2018, 12:07:35 PM
Did anyone see the quivering chin on the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox when the vote to release the legal advice was passed.

Shifty..........

He is quite the cartoon character in a parliament of toons. Seems the end result of them releasing it is the SNP see it as providing even more favourable terms for NI, while the DUP see it as devastating for NI. Same as before then.

Rossfan

If DUPUDA could only manage one brain between the lot of them....... :-\
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Eamonnca1

Quote from: rrhf on December 04, 2018, 07:23:33 PM
Been convinced for a while May is working to a greater plan. Brexit is economic Ground zero for Britain. It won't happen but the chaos will make some very wealthy and many quite poor.

I've been wondering about this myself. She was a remainer. If she's smart she'll have adopted this "Brexit means Brexit" pose to make her leadership position as secure as it's going to get in such a divided party, negotiate the best deal she can get with Brussels (it was always going to be awful for the UK no matter who did the negotiating), fail to get it passed in parliament, and then put it to the people in a second referendum where Remain prevails and the whole sorry mess can be put behind us.

macdanger2

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 06, 2018, 05:29:25 PM
then put it to the people in a second referendum where Remain prevails and the whole sorry mess can be put behind us.

A referendum result would need to be +60% in favour of remain to "put it behind us", I can't see that happening. A slim remain might remove the immediate problem but it doesn't go away

seafoid

The DUP is playing Russian Roulette

https://democracy.kent.gov.uk/documents/s88112/Item%207%20-%20Brexit.pdf

"Potential implications from a no-deal scenario which staff have been asked to consider are:
 Prolonged disruption to passenger and freight networks impacting the strategic road and rail networks and the surrounding local road network;
 Disruption to the importation and exportation of goods, foodstuffs and other consumables, and medicines and other medical supplies due to changes in trading rules and regulations and from traffic congestion;
 Disruption to vulnerable individuals and communities affected by major traffic congestion resulting in an inability to attend schools, hospitals, etc.;
 Disruption to staff travel leading to staff shortages in key services such as
social care and an inability to provide local services and individual
appointments;
 An increase in the numbers of migrants arriving in Kent, including
unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, as a consequence of the change in UK-EU relations.

Children's Young People and Education Directorate (CYPE): CYPE are providing a range of briefings for schools via their headteacher briefings and e-briefings, with fuller guidance to be provided to schools in January 2019. These briefings have specifically shared latest planning assumptions and identified a need for schools to review travel plans for staff and pupils; supply chain vulnerabilities (e.g. schools meals, etc); any plans for off-site travel in the three to six month planning assumption window; and the air quality impacts that may arise from the idling of HGV and other vehicles close to education settings in the event of traffic disruption. Further work is needed to explore the impacts on early year's settings.


 Adult Social Care and Health Directorate (ASCH): ASCH are working closely with suppliers to identify risks to service provision in the event of the no-deal planning assumptions being realised. In addition, work is being done to map the location of social care workers against clients, with the aim of exploring whether staff can be reallocated to clients closer to their place of residence – thereby mitigating the risk of travel to those workers accessing particularly vulnerable residents. A Brexit scenario exercise is also scheduled for operational commissioning staff to further assist identification of and preparation for any risks to this area of service delivery.

Coroners Service: could face difficulties with the transport of the deceased to post mortem or body storage facilities, the attendance of staff to hospital sites for identification purposes and travel by pathologists to mortuary to conduct post mortems. Whilst mitigation measures are being explored, there are limited options available to this service. "

What can you say? It's like war
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Insane Bolt

Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2018, 05:48:24 AM
The DUP is playing Russian Roulette

https://democracy.kent.gov.uk/documents/s88112/Item%207%20-%20Brexit.pdf

"Potential implications from a no-deal scenario which staff have been asked to consider are:
 Prolonged disruption to passenger and freight networks impacting the strategic road and rail networks and the surrounding local road network;
 Disruption to the importation and exportation of goods, foodstuffs and other consumables, and medicines and other medical supplies due to changes in trading rules and regulations and from traffic congestion;
 Disruption to vulnerable individuals and communities affected by major traffic congestion resulting in an inability to attend schools, hospitals, etc.;
 Disruption to staff travel leading to staff shortages in key services such as
social care and an inability to provide local services and individual
appointments;
 An increase in the numbers of migrants arriving in Kent, including
unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, as a consequence of the change in UK-EU relations.

Children's Young People and Education Directorate (CYPE): CYPE are providing a range of briefings for schools via their headteacher briefings and e-briefings, with fuller guidance to be provided to schools in January 2019. These briefings have specifically shared latest planning assumptions and identified a need for schools to review travel plans for staff and pupils; supply chain vulnerabilities (e.g. schools meals, etc); any plans for off-site travel in the three to six month planning assumption window; and the air quality impacts that may arise from the idling of HGV and other vehicles close to education settings in the event of traffic disruption. Further work is needed to explore the impacts on early year's settings.


 Adult Social Care and Health Directorate (ASCH): ASCH are working closely with suppliers to identify risks to service provision in the event of the no-deal planning assumptions being realised. In addition, work is being done to map the location of social care workers against clients, with the aim of exploring whether staff can be reallocated to clients closer to their place of residence – thereby mitigating the risk of travel to those workers accessing particularly vulnerable residents. A Brexit scenario exercise is also scheduled for operational commissioning staff to further assist identification of and preparation for any risks to this area of service delivery.

Coroners Service: could face difficulties with the transport of the deceased to post mortem or body storage facilities, the attendance of staff to hospital sites for identification purposes and travel by pathologists to mortuary to conduct post mortems. Whilst mitigation measures are being explored, there are limited options available to this service. "

What can you say? It's like war

The DUP don't do reality......everything will be fine as long as 'our fleg is flying'.

seafoid

Philip Stephens' mother was from Kiltimagh


   https://www.ft.com/content/b91dd274-f895-11e8-8b7c-6fa24bd5409c

   Theresa May has lost control of Brexit
      
      
               This is what happens when parliamentary democracies shuffle off responsibility
      
         Philip Stephens

So this is what they meant by taking back control. Theresa May's government has drawn up plans to allocate space on European ferries arriving at the British port of Dover. Trucks carrying medicines will get permits to make the crossing from Calais; so too, perhaps, those with components for vital business supply chains. Britain's consumers have been warned. There will not be enough room for luxuries such as fresh fruit and vegetables.

Crashing out of the EU in March without a deal would see the restoration overnight of Britain's national sovereignty. This surely would be Brexit at its purest — manna for those in Mrs May's party seeking a complete rupture with the continent. Decisions on the opening and closing of ports and borders would be a matter for the Westminster government alone. Britain, in the lurid language of the Brexiters, would have cast off the shackles. So runs the theory. Now the reality is beginning to impose itself. Calais-Dover by a large measure is Britain's most important trade route. It operates with the consent and co-operation of France. Whitehall officials estimate the inevitable post-Brexit imposition at Calais of EU checks and controls would cut traffic — imports to, as well as exports from, Britain — by more than four-fifths. The effect would be to choke off supplies to much of British business and leave stranded in France much of the produce destined for British supermarket shelves. So much for sovereignty.For the prime minister such horror stories — and this is one of many — are the only argument she has for the dismal deal she has negotiated with the EU27. It is not enough. The closer Brexit looms, the more obvious the prospective damage to the nation's prosperity and security. Mrs May's agreement would delay some of the consequences and throw a veil over others. Taken in the round, it is a charade — a hapless attempt to wish away the yawning gulf between abstract concepts of sovereignty and real national power.Those tuning in to the parliamentary debate on the agreement could be forgiven for thinking the only big problem is a so-called backstop arrangement to guarantee an open border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.

In truth, the backstop is simply a proxy for the wrangling about sovereignty. The vital substance of Britain's decades-long engagement with Europe has been lost to arcane debates about supposed sovereignty. The Britain sought by the Brexiters is one of impotent isolation — a nation with an untrammelled right to harm itself.Brexit: all you need to know about the meaningful voteIn any event, MPs look set to throw out the prime minister's package. The Conservative party's Kamikaze Brexiters are clinging on to their Elizabethan fantasies of a "global Britain". Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, is as reactionary as any in his views of Europe. Where English nationalists see an attempt by Brussels to suborn democracy, Mr Corbyn spies a vicious capitalist plot against the working classes.

Most Labour MPs scorn their leader's conspiracy theories, but then shrug their shoulders and vote along party lines.The signs are there is a majority against a disorderly Brexit that would see Britain crash out of the Union. But to what purpose? Mrs May's tortuous compromises have probably killed off the idea of a muddle-through Brexit. There might be just enough votes for an arrangement with the EU roughly comparable to that of Norway. But where is the political leadership to marshal such a majority? Brexit has already done immeasurable damage to Britain's international standing. Things could now get worse. What are friends and allies to make of the present spectacle in parliament? There could surely be nothing more humiliating than the failure of its politicians to agree among themselves as to the terms of Britain's departure.This is what happens when parliamentary democracies seek to shrug off responsibility. Referendums undermine political pluralism. As Margaret Thatcher used to say, they are a favourite device of demagogues and dictators. The so-called will of the people reduces liberal democracy to majoritarianism. In this case, parliament is now being asked to approve a divorce with Europe that most MPs believe will make the nation poorer and weaker.Your Brexit questions answered by FT experts As irony would have it, the advocate general of the European Court of Justice may have thrown a lifeline. The British government, he has advised, would be permitted by the EU treaty to withdraw unilaterally its Article 50 request to leave the EU. The Court's judges have still to offer a final opinion, but precedent suggests they are likely to agree. Therein lies the opportunity for the prime minister to take back control.Her last act in Downing Street — it is hard to see how she could long remain in office in the wake of a Commons defeat — could be to prepare to rescind Brexit. As a caretaker prime minister, Mrs May could ask the EU27 to stop the clock while the nation voted in the referendum it was denied in 2016 — a clear and transparent choice between sovereign isolation and the sometimes uncomfortable empowerment that comes with membership of the EU. Mrs May had hoped her legacy would be that of the leader who took the country though Brexit while avoiding a violent rupture in the Conservative party. That cause is lost. History will anyway be a lot kinder if she gives the country the chance to think again
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2018, 09:21:15 AM
Philip Stephens

This is what happens when parliamentary democracies seek to shrug off responsibility. Referendums undermine political pluralism. As Margaret Thatcher used to say, they are a favourite device of demagogues and dictators. The so-called will of the people reduces liberal democracy to majoritarianism.

F88k off Philip Stephens.

if "parliamentary democracies" are not supposed to follow the will of the people, then scrap the idea of representative democracy and replace it with a meritocracy.

I'm personally sick of having useless incompetents that are not qualified for the roles they are in try to run things and have the wool pulled over their eyes by equally inept and incompetent civil servants.

How many of the current cabinet have professional qualifications appropriate to the roles they find themselves in?

Just a random selection
Minister for Energy & Clean growth - "read" geography at oxford
Minister for Universities, Sciences, Research & Innovation - Modern History at oxford
DEFRA - English at oxford
Transport minister - history in cambridge
Health minister - philosophy, politics and economics at oxford

Not one of them are suitably qualified to critically examine the work of the civil servants under them with any authority.
i usse an speelchekor

johnnycool

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 07, 2018, 11:08:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2018, 09:21:15 AM
Philip Stephens

This is what happens when parliamentary democracies seek to shrug off responsibility. Referendums undermine political pluralism. As Margaret Thatcher used to say, they are a favourite device of demagogues and dictators. The so-called will of the people reduces liberal democracy to majoritarianism.

F88k off Philip Stephens.

if "parliamentary democracies" are not supposed to follow the will of the people, then scrap the idea of representative democracy and replace it with a meritocracy.

I'm personally sick of having useless incompetents that are not qualified for the roles they are in try to run things and have the wool pulled over their eyes by equally inept and incompetent civil servants.

How many of the current cabinet have professional qualifications appropriate to the roles they find themselves in?

Just a random selection
Minister for Energy & Clean growth - "read" geography at oxford
Minister for Universities, Sciences, Research & Innovation - Modern History at oxford
DEFRA - English at oxford
Transport minister - history in cambridge
Health minister - philosophy, politics and economics at oxford

Not one of them are suitably qualified to critically examine the work of the civil servants under them with any authority.

It doesn't matter who you elect, the Government will still be in charge.

These lads and ladies are all just figureheads, career politicians with never an original thought in their lives.

seafoid

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/06/day-theresa-mays-indecision-had-even-loyalists-wondering-will/

By Mrs May's side was Julian Smith,
the Chief Whip, and arranged around the room were Remainers Philip Hammond,
Amber Rudd, David Lidington, David Gauke and Karen Bradley, and Brexiteers
Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove and Liam Fox. "I think people had turned up expecting her to
say 'this is the preferred course'," said one Cabinet source. "But instead it
was obvious she doesn't really know what to do next." Julian Smith set the tone by
admitting for the first time that the Government would lose the vote next
Tuesday if it goes ahead.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU