Black and Tans Commemoration

[Itchy]

The Black and Tans were RIC special constables, were they not?

In name only

If this true, why were they inducted in large numbers into the Garda Siochana upon its formation and as such enjoyed almost universal public support thenceforth?

The organisation was an evil one, which is not to say that all or its members were.

You didn't answer my question. If the RIC organisation was so evil, how come such large numbers of them ended up in the Gardai, with public support?

What is that supposed to mean?

[tyronefan]

Just 13 men transferred to the Garda Síochána. These included men who had earlier assisted IRA operations in various ways. Some retired, and the Irish Free State paid their pensions as provided for in the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty agreement. Others, still faced with threats of violent reprisals,[28] emigrated with their families to Great Britain or other parts of the Empire, most often to police forces in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia. A number of these men joined the Palestine Gendarmerie, which was recruiting in the UK at this time.

[Itchy]

Just 13 men transferred to the Garda Síochána. These included men who had earlier assisted IRA operations in various ways. Some retired, and the Irish Free State paid their pensions as provided for in the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty agreement. Others, still faced with threats of violent reprisals,[28] emigrated with their families to Great Britain or other parts of the Empire, most often to police forces in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia. A number of these men joined the Palestine Gendarmerie, which was recruiting in the UK at this time.

We should have a commemoration for those 13 men.

[five points]

Just 13 men transferred to the Garda Síochána. These included men who had earlier assisted IRA operations in various ways. Some retired, and the Irish Free State paid their pensions as provided for in the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty agreement. Others, still faced with threats of violent reprisals,[28] emigrated with their families to Great Britain or other parts of the Empire, most often to police forces in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia. A number of these men joined the Palestine Gendarmerie, which was recruiting in the UK at this time.

This ignores the DMP which continued in existence until 1925 when it merged with the Garda.

[Itchy]

Anyway, when is the blueshirt nazi commemoration taking place. We must honour those proud men too.

[seafoid]

This discussion reminds me of all the debates about the supposed difference between the original IRA and subsequent iterations in the North. Southern groupthink is very fragile.

`A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right.`- Tom Paine, 1737-1809.

[yellowcard]

The backlash has started but really what did Fine Gael expect? Leaving aside the Brexit process apart (and that was for purely selfish economic reasons) they have always been the party who gave off a feeling of subservience to British rule. Charlie Flanagan being the prime exponent of it but only one of several within that party.

Flanagan is a balaclava wearing volunteer when compared to John Bruton and his antics when Charles Windsor came over here in, what, 1995 or so.

I wouldn't argue with that, Bruton despite having retired years ago I see has since come out in the media to tansplain and justify the decision. Meanwhile Micheal Martin appears to have no opinion on it which in itself tells you something about his leadership which has been all about clinging to the coat tails of FG.

[weareros]

The backlash has started but really what did Fine Gael expect? Leaving aside the Brexit process apart (and that was for purely selfish economic reasons) they have always been the party who gave off a feeling of subservience to British rule. Charlie Flanagan being the prime exponent of it but only one of several within that party.

Flanagan is a balaclava wearing volunteer when compared to John Bruton and his antics when Charles Windsor came over here in, what, 1995 or so.

I wouldn't argue with that, Bruton despite having retired years ago I see has since come out in the media to tansplain and justify the decision. Meanwhile Micheal Martin appears to have no opinion on it which in itself tells you something about his leadership which has been all about clinging to the coat tails of FG.

If it becomes a vote getter he will move to the side of his Clare Mayor. But with Opinion Pieces like this in De Examiner, he will probably sit on the fence. https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/ourview/a-new-reality-faces-the-north--southern-hypocrisy-exposed-973925.html

[Rudi]

Michael Martin the Irish version of Jeremy Corbyn?

[grounded]

The backlash has started but really what did Fine Gael expect? Leaving aside the Brexit process apart (and that was for purely selfish economic reasons) they have always been the party who gave off a feeling of subservience to British rule. Charlie Flanagan being the prime exponent of it but only one of several within that party.

Flanagan is a balaclava wearing volunteer when compared to John Bruton and his antics when Charles Windsor came over here in, what, 1995 or so.

I wouldn't argue with that, Bruton despite having retired years ago I see has since come out in the media to tansplain and justify the decision. Meanwhile Micheal Martin appears to have no opinion on it which in itself tells you something about his leadership which has been all about clinging to the coat tails of FG.

"Tansplain"   Brilliant. There is definitely a bit of Tansplaining going on in this thread.

In all honesty the whole thing is a shambles. What is the benefit of doing it?
     I could understand if it was a remembrance of all those who died as a result of conflict fair enough, but to specifically commemorate the RIC and by association the tans/aux is daft.
     Perhaps there is some sort of commemoration for the loyalists who fought for England in the American war of independence? 

[Evil Genius]

If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

[Franko]

If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

If a new Ireland wants to be seen as a welcoming place for unionists, we must commemorate those who actively opposed the formation of the state, through murder, torture and tyranny?

If that is the case and we are to be consistent in our approach,  in order for the north to be an inclusive place for nationalists, we should have a 'state' commemoration for members of the IRA?

[Itchy]

If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.

Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.

There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night

Here we go. Now thanks to Leo's idiocy we will have unionists saying that this is now an important issue. The same as when Wee Willie the clown want to march is sectarian "Love ulster" (well 2/3rd of Ulster) gang down O Connell street. Ah would you look at that, them intolerent southerners wont allow peaceful little Willie and his band down the street, what would they do to us in a united Ireland.


For the record I would change the flag and then anthem in a new republic but a state commemoration for a disgraced murdering police force is not up for debate in my opinion.

[Itchy]

Michael Martin almost gets off the fence

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/micheal-martin-says-ric-event-an-error-of-judgement-by-government-38840738.html

[weareros]

As good as any example of the contradictions of the Irish relationship with its past. Tom Crean, today remembered as an Irish hero with even beers named after him, his pub a tourist attraction in Kerry, his brother shot dead for being an RIC man  https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-the-snow-makes-me-think-of-tom-crean-s-brother-cornelius-1.3413028%3fmode=amp

BTW, very good post Evil Genius.