Time for a post-catholic Ireland

[magpie seanie]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

[The Iceman]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

[oakleaflad]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Of course there have been Catholics that have been a force for good in the world. Most of what is listed above is due to intelligence or talent of some kind though. Do you think the same people would have been unable to achieve that if they weren't Catholic?

[johnnycool]

Not much in the 20th and 21st centuries to date there I'm afraid.

Could they be considered the dark ages for Catholicism?

[seafoid]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Ask any native American from Alaska to Tierra del fuego

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAYdc2_Y82w

We weren´t lost and
We didn´t need any book
Then the great spirit
Met the great lie
Indians are jesus
Hanging from the cross
Hanging from the cross

In the name of their savior
Forcing on us
The trinity of the chain
Guilt sind and blame
The trinity of the chain
Guilt sin and blame
Hanging from the cross
Hanging from the cross

[The Iceman]

Not much in the 20th and 21st centuries to date there I'm afraid.

Could they be considered the dark ages for Catholicism?

You don't think they do good work today? Schools, hospitals, missionary aid, charitable work, burying the dead, providing shelter for the homeless? I'm not asking you to discount the negative but at least recognize the positive?

[easytiger95]

Iceman, I don't think it is fair to label all criticism of the Catholic church as hate filled.

Speaking as an agnostic, I think a reformed church could well get me back through the doors at least a couple of times a year. I don't hate the Catholic Church as a concept, but I do reserve the right to strongly criticize those who have shaped its message and behaviour, which, for hundreds of years, I believe to be the antithesis of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.

But whilst the Church may be eternal, its teachings are not. A couple of years back, during the marriage equality debate, I think I listed some of the many times that the Church has changed its doctrine both in terms of theology and on social issues.

It could well happen again, especially under this Pope. We live in hope.

[omaghjoe]

Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.

I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.

Joe, are you being disingenuous?

If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.

No... are you Esm?

A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality

Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?

No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way

And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.

[omaghjoe]

Iceman, I don't think it is fair to label all criticism of the Catholic church as hate filled.

Speaking as an agnostic, I think a reformed church could well get me back through the doors at least a couple of times a year. I don't hate the Catholic Church as a concept, but I do reserve the right to strongly criticize those who have shaped its message and behaviour, which, for hundreds of years, I believe to be the antithesis of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.

But whilst the Church may be eternal, its teachings are not. A couple of years back, during the marriage equality debate, I think I listed some of the many times that the Church has changed its doctrine both in terms of theology and on social issues.

It could well happen again, especially under this Pope. We live in hope.

I agree that the doctrine can appear to rigid sometime and is somewhat contradictory at times, but using faith as a basis it is built up from there and is reasonably logical.

And we know it can change however it must be inline with some of the basic tenents of the faith. We are constantly discovering new things our lives are a constant search for truth and morality so I think it is fair to say that our understanding of right and wrong can evolve also.
We used to believe slavery was fine for example, probably justified in terms of introducing slaves to civilization, feed and watering them, provided them with security etc etc and they contributing by provided much needed labour. Now however we see slavery as fundamental wrong and that all persons are equal

[omaghjoe]

The exclusion of Fr Georges Lemaître from popular science shows is bizarre and would make you suspicious as to why. The discovering of redshift is probably only bettered by Einstein's Relativities in terms of influence in our understanding of the cosmos in the last century.

I don't really buy the Big Bang theory tho and have gotten the "Why? do ye think God did it or something..?" as a retort. Clearly they don't understand causality but informing them that a Catholic priest came up with it is a much more effective way of assisting them to pipe down

[easytiger95]

Iceman, I don't think it is fair to label all criticism of the Catholic church as hate filled.

Speaking as an agnostic, I think a reformed church could well get me back through the doors at least a couple of times a year. I don't hate the Catholic Church as a concept, but I do reserve the right to strongly criticize those who have shaped its message and behaviour, which, for hundreds of years, I believe to be the antithesis of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.

But whilst the Church may be eternal, its teachings are not. A couple of years back, during the marriage equality debate, I think I listed some of the many times that the Church has changed its doctrine both in terms of theology and on social issues.

It could well happen again, especially under this Pope. We live in hope.

I agree that the doctrine can appear to rigid sometime and is somewhat contradictory at times, but using faith as a basis it is built up from there and is reasonably logical.

And we know it can change however it must be inline with some of the basic tenents of the faith. We are constantly discovering new things our lives are a constant search for truth and morality so I think it is fair to say that our understanding of right and wrong can evolve also.
We used to believe slavery was fine for example, probably justified in terms of introducing slaves to civilization, feed and watering them, provided them with security etc etc and they contributing by provided much needed labour. Now however we see slavery as fundamental wrong and that all persons are equal

So I assume from that we an expect an evolution on teaching around homosexuality? If all persons are equal, as you say.

[gallsman]

Columbus as an example of a force for good? Really? Empire and enslavement?

[omaghjoe]

Iceman, I don't think it is fair to label all criticism of the Catholic church as hate filled.

Speaking as an agnostic, I think a reformed church could well get me back through the doors at least a couple of times a year. I don't hate the Catholic Church as a concept, but I do reserve the right to strongly criticize those who have shaped its message and behaviour, which, for hundreds of years, I believe to be the antithesis of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.

But whilst the Church may be eternal, its teachings are not. A couple of years back, during the marriage equality debate, I think I listed some of the many times that the Church has changed its doctrine both in terms of theology and on social issues.

It could well happen again, especially under this Pope. We live in hope.

I agree that the doctrine can appear to rigid sometime and is somewhat contradictory at times, but using faith as a basis it is built up from there and is reasonably logical.

And we know it can change however it must be inline with some of the basic tenents of the faith. We are constantly discovering new things our lives are a constant search for truth and morality so I think it is fair to say that our understanding of right and wrong can evolve also.
We used to believe slavery was fine for example, probably justified in terms of introducing slaves to civilization, feed and watering them, provided them with security etc etc and they contributing by provided much needed labour. Now however we see slavery as fundamental wrong and that all persons are equal

So I assume from that we an expect an evolution on teaching around homosexuality? If all persons are equal, as you say.

Maybe a lot of priests are gay so who knows, but it is unlikely not sure but I think its mainly because it is a bit of a paradox to Catholic marriage.

[easytiger95]

Not if the church considers all persons to be equal. Seems a bit inconsistent.

[omaghjoe]

Not if the church considers all persons to be equal. Seems a bit inconsistent.

Oh I agree it can be inconsistent, weighing one thing against another is were logic gets difficult

You see on the other hand one of the basic tenets of Catholic marriage (and life) involves introducing more persons to this life.