Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race

[thewobbler]

I'd go as far as to describe COC as the most underrated player in history.

The all-time top scorer in championship football, with a superlative goal scoring record. But because he efficient rather than flashy, there's a queue of people who prefer to concentrate on what he does do, rather than what he does do (which is consistently rattle up more points per game than anyone else bar Dean Rock).

[From the Bunker]

Cillian O'Connor will always have his knockers. Understandable, he's a hateful player to have as a opponent.

[Angelo]

The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?

I'd point to the fact that the likes of Jason Doherty has none. If you gave me the option of a straight up choice between Doherty and O'Connor, I'd have Doherty every day. The reason O'Connor gets the plaudits is because his scoring stats are massaged by tap over frees due to Mayo's hard running game which draws loads of frees in front of the posts.

Mayo's first choice forward 6 over the past 7/8 years has been along the lines of:

D O'Connor O'Shea McLoughlin
Moran C O'Connor Doherty

From my own viewpoint, C O'Connor is the weakest of those players from open play and the stats point towards his free taking prowess as decent and not top level.

[dublin7]

Cillian O'Connor will always have his knockers. Understandable, he's a hateful player to have as a opponent.

That's true. He is lethal with those elbows.

[MayoBuck]

The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?

I'd point to the fact that the likes of Jason Doherty has none. If you gave me the option of a straight up choice between Doherty and O'Connor, I'd have Doherty every day. The reason O'Connor gets the plaudits is because his scoring stats are massaged by tap over frees due to Mayo's hard running game which draws loads of frees in front of the posts.

Mayo's first choice forward 6 over the past 7/8 years has been along the lines of:

D O'Connor O'Shea McLoughlin
Moran C O'Connor Doherty

From my own viewpoint, C O'Connor is the weakest of those players from open play and the stats point towards his free taking prowess as decent and not top level.

What plaudits does O'Connor get? He's never included in conversations about top forwards despite his scoring rate being comparable to anyone. He contributes plenty from open play between scores and assists.

I like Jason Doherty but his main qualities are as a ball winner. Doesn't have the creativity or scoring prowess that Cillian has. When he's out (e.g. vs Roscommon last year) we're far less of a team.

[Angelo]

The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?

I'd point to the fact that the likes of Jason Doherty has none. If you gave me the option of a straight up choice between Doherty and O'Connor, I'd have Doherty every day. The reason O'Connor gets the plaudits is because his scoring stats are massaged by tap over frees due to Mayo's hard running game which draws loads of frees in front of the posts.

Mayo's first choice forward 6 over the past 7/8 years has been along the lines of:

D O'Connor O'Shea McLoughlin
Moran C O'Connor Doherty

From my own viewpoint, C O'Connor is the weakest of those players from open play and the stats point towards his free taking prowess as decent and not top level.

What plaudits does O'Connor get? He's never included in conversations about top forwards despite his scoring rate being comparable to anyone. He contributes plenty from open play between scores and assists.

I like Jason Doherty but his main qualities are as a ball winner. Doesn't have the creativity or scoring prowess that Cillian has. When he's out (e.g. vs Roscommon last year) we're far less of a team.

He gets an awful lot of plaudits from pundits and journalists, far more than his brother gets or players like McLoughlin or Doherty who are all much better players for me.

It's not an anti-Mayo thing and I appreciate O'Connor is the kind of player the opposition will hate because of the way he goes on but everyone wants a guy on their team who will push the line in their will to win. I just happen to think from open play he is too limited to be considered a top level forward.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Agree with Angelo on this one. Nowhere near as influential from open play compared to the real top forwards never mind his scoring record. He's a free kick merchant 

[mouview]

Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.

[Angelo]

Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.

I'd say three or four years ago you could have made a point of carrying him for his free taking duties, I think his success rate has plummeted badly over the past 3 or 4 seasons. The vast majority of his frees though are probably fairly central inside thirty metres, you'd be expecting any decent free taker to be hitting 90% of those.

I look at someone like McAliskey for Tyrone who I would regard as a good player but he's been in and out of the Tyrone team, he can be a little inconsistent but on the top of his game I'd take him over Cillian O'Connor on the top of his game anyday, same for McCurry. The one season where McAliskey was a regular in the Tyrone side and trusted with the free taking duties (mainly only the frees from the left and the odd long range one if Morgan was having a bad day), only McManus outscored him in the Championship and only Kilkenny outscored from play.

The point is you'd be expecting a free taker (good, decent or average) for a county who is a regular and in a team going deep into the Championship year on year to be topping the scoring charts. A lot in the media like to point to O'Connor's scoring prowess as testament to his standing as one of the best forwards in the game.

I think when you look behind that it falls down and it's not an anti Mayo thing either - I think the likes of Doherty, D O'Connor and A Moran would all have walked onto the Tyrone sides of that time and are/were all quality forwards. I don't think I could say the same with C O'Connor and I'd conversely say if Mayo had guys like McCurry, McAliskey or Lee Brennan available to them they'd probably have got much more regular action than they did with Tyrone and if they had been handed the free taking responsibilities I'd fancy them to have the scoring records O'Connor has in that Mayo team.

[From the Bunker]

This will be Cillians 10th year as a Senior Mayo footballer. He is 28! He contributed greatly to Mayo being a top force during that time. Most people judge Cillian on his performances against Dublin. Their the ones that are always remembered. And I think he did ok considering that that Dublin group will go down as the greatest in Gaelic football ever! To be beaten so narrowly by such a talented team with so many advantages is no shame. That they kept trying despite all those knocks.

I've never heard anyone from Mayo say Cillian was a world beater. We know his limitations and we know his strengths. He has been a good servant.

[MayoBuck]

Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.

I'd say three or four years ago you could have made a point of carrying him for his free taking duties, I think his success rate has plummeted badly over the past 3 or 4 seasons. The vast majority of his frees though are probably fairly central inside thirty metres, you'd be expecting any decent free taker to be hitting 90% of those.

I look at someone like McAliskey for Tyrone who I would regard as a good player but he's been in and out of the Tyrone team, he can be a little inconsistent but on the top of his game I'd take him over Cillian O'Connor on the top of his game anyday, same for McCurry. The one season where McAliskey was a regular in the Tyrone side and trusted with the free taking duties (mainly only the frees from the left and the odd long range one if Morgan was having a bad day), only McManus outscored him in the Championship and only Kilkenny outscored from play.

The point is you'd be expecting a free taker (good, decent or average) for a county who is a regular and in a team going deep into the Championship year on year to be topping the scoring charts. A lot in the media like to point to O'Connor's scoring prowess as testament to his standing as one of the best forwards in the game.

I think when you look behind that it falls down and it's not an anti Mayo thing either - I think the likes of Doherty, D O'Connor and A Moran would all have walked onto the Tyrone sides of that time and are/were all quality forwards. I don't think I could say the same with C O'Connor and I'd conversely say if Mayo had guys like McCurry, McAliskey or Lee Brennan available to them they'd probably have got much more regular action than they did with Tyrone and if they had been handed the free taking responsibilities I'd fancy them to have the scoring records O'Connor has in that Mayo team.

When Mayo played Tyrone in the 2016 quarter final we got a good contrast between Cillian O'Connor, McCurry and McAliskey.

Again, I don't see anyone in the media saying Cillian is one of the best forwards in the game. Not in the same way they talk about McManus, Clifford, con OCallaghan, Shane Walsh and others. They do talk about his importance to the team, which is undeniable. It's no coincidence the improvement mayo made in 2011 after his debut. A consistent high scoring forward will do that. He actually had the same effect on Ballintubber since 2010. They've won 5 mayo championships despite not having any previously.

[Angelo]

Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.

I'd say three or four years ago you could have made a point of carrying him for his free taking duties, I think his success rate has plummeted badly over the past 3 or 4 seasons. The vast majority of his frees though are probably fairly central inside thirty metres, you'd be expecting any decent free taker to be hitting 90% of those.

I look at someone like McAliskey for Tyrone who I would regard as a good player but he's been in and out of the Tyrone team, he can be a little inconsistent but on the top of his game I'd take him over Cillian O'Connor on the top of his game anyday, same for McCurry. The one season where McAliskey was a regular in the Tyrone side and trusted with the free taking duties (mainly only the frees from the left and the odd long range one if Morgan was having a bad day), only McManus outscored him in the Championship and only Kilkenny outscored from play.

The point is you'd be expecting a free taker (good, decent or average) for a county who is a regular and in a team going deep into the Championship year on year to be topping the scoring charts. A lot in the media like to point to O'Connor's scoring prowess as testament to his standing as one of the best forwards in the game.

I think when you look behind that it falls down and it's not an anti Mayo thing either - I think the likes of Doherty, D O'Connor and A Moran would all have walked onto the Tyrone sides of that time and are/were all quality forwards. I don't think I could say the same with C O'Connor and I'd conversely say if Mayo had guys like McCurry, McAliskey or Lee Brennan available to them they'd probably have got much more regular action than they did with Tyrone and if they had been handed the free taking responsibilities I'd fancy them to have the scoring records O'Connor has in that Mayo team.

When Mayo played Tyrone in the 2016 quarter final we got a good contrast between Cillian O'Connor, McCurry and McAliskey.

Again, I don't see anyone in the media saying Cillian is one of the best forwards in the game. Not in the same way they talk about McManus, Clifford, con OCallaghan, Shane Walsh and others. They do talk about his importance to the team, which is undeniable. It's no coincidence the improvement mayo made in 2011 after his debut. A consistent high scoring forward will do that. He actually had the same effect on Ballintubber since 2010. They've won 5 mayo championships despite not having any previously.

Did we?

I think O'Connor played on a better team than McCurry and McAliskey. Both McCurry and McAliskey would come in for a fair degree of criticism with Tyrone, it's probably fair enough too, they haven't really done it when its mattered but Mayo have been a fair bit better than Tyrone in that time, they've probably played a style of football than allows their inside forwards much more freedom to play and score and I think I'd still have both over O'Connor but I'd gladly have swapped some of our defenders, midfielders and half forwards for the main men in that Mayo team over the past decade.


I don't understand why Mayo people get so defensive when people criticise O'Connor, it's legitimate criticism - he gets a big write up from the pundits and journalists but I think he would really struggle to hold down a regular spot on any of the other top county teams - it is usually lazy commentary from pundits looking at the scoring chart. People will pop up with the "don't knock free takers line" but the stats don't say that O'Connor is anything better than a decent free taker in any case.

He gets far more plaudits for Mayo than guys like Doherty, McLoughlin and his brother get from the national media and GAA commentators and for me he contributes not nearly as much as they do.

For a forward he hasn't really developed his game, for a big enough guy he's not great in the air, he's pretty poor off his left side, he's slow and his movement is not up too much, I've seen him live a few times, he doesn't show for the ball. He's a good finisher, he's a grafter and he's willing to cross the line but I just find him fairly limited as a footballer.

He's a bit like the Kris Boyd of gaelic footballers for me, I'm not saying this out of any dislike for the guy or Mayo - I'm giving my honest appraisal of him. He played in an excellent side and has benefited greatly from it.

[thewobbler]

He's the top scorer in the history of the championship.

He averages 6.8 points per game.

The only player in the top 25 with a better scoring average is Matt Connor (7.0).

To put this in context, dead ball specialist, free scoring scoring machines of the back door era like Padraig Joyce (4.0), Paddy Bradley (5 . , Conor McManus (5.3), Dean Rock (5.4) and Oisin McConville (4.4) fall well short of him, with comparable appearances.

The only player in the top 25 all time scorers with more goals than him is Mikey Sheehy.

He's has scored 36 points in 5 All Ireland finals (including a really).

————

Statistically speaking he is the single greatest scoring forward of all time.

Just to repeat that he's averaged over 7 points a game in AI finals.

This is not a flat track bully.

His record is extraordinary.

——

Comparing him to workhorse half forwards like Doherty, McLaughlin and his brother is utterly pointless. Why not compare him to Chris Barrett while you're at it?

Mentioning him the same breath as players like McAliskey and McCurry, who each have struggled to make a mediocre Tyrone side because they simply don't have the gears to play top flight senior championship football is bizarre. It might even be bordering on retarded.

——-

The analysis that reopened this thread is inherently flawed because regardless of who he has played against, for the best part of a decade now, he has rattled up scores.

Look at the top 25 scorers in the history of championship football. It's a who's who of scoring talent. And there, plum at the top of them is O'Connor.

If you genuinely believe that an average player or an average free taker could do that, then you need a zip placed on your mouth and sticky tape put on your fingers.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

He's the top scorer in the history of the championship.

He averages 6.8 points per game.

The only player in the top 25 with a better scoring average is Matt Connor (7.0).

To put this in context, dead ball specialist, free scoring scoring machines of the back door era like Padraig Joyce (4.0), Paddy Bradley (5 . , Conor McManus (5.3), Dean Rock (5.4) and Oisin McConville (4.4) fall well short of him, with comparable appearances.

The only player in the top 25 all time scorers with more goals than him is Mikey Sheehy.

He's has scored 36 points in 5 All Ireland finals (including a really).

————

Statistically speaking he is the single greatest scoring forward of all time.

Just to repeat that he's averaged over 7 points a game in AI finals.

This is not a flat track bully.

His record is extraordinary.

——

Comparing him to workhorse half forwards like Doherty, McLaughlin and his brother is utterly pointless. Why not compare him to Chris Barrett while you're at it?

Mentioning him the same breath as players like McAliskey and McCurry, who each have struggled to make a mediocre Tyrone side because they simply don't have the gears to play top flight senior championship football is bizarre. It might even be bordering on retarded.

——-

The analysis that reopened this thread is inherently flawed because regardless of who he has played against, for the best part of a decade now, he has rattled up scores.

Look at the top 25 scorers in the history of championship football. It's a who's who of scoring talent. And there, plum at the top of them is O'Connor.

If you genuinely believe that an average player or an average free taker could do that, then you need a zip placed on your mouth and sticky tape put on your fingers.

Ok Cillian

[thewobbler]

Quality response.