The ulster rugby trial

[Franko]

The semantic arguments the last two posts have fixated on are just incredible.

Yawn.

[sid waddell]

The points about the treatment of women are well made and I think these are often done unconsciously. It is no harm for males to take stock of some of their behaviours and how they affect women.

But to try and brand all this stuff a "rape culture" is dingbat stuff.
So lads fighting outside the chipper are part of a "killing culture" because it makes the possibly of someone dying greater.
People playing hurling are partaking in a "finger breaking culture" because the possibilities of this happening are vastly increased as opposed to playing snooker. Rugby a "neck breaking culture" etc. etc.

Unfortunately the shock jock tactics do the cause no favour. Just my thought, but I'm probably misogynistic, woman hater.

Was there/is there a culture of sexual abuse and rape in the Catholic Church? Not just the abuse itself, but the institutional closing of ranks -  the moving around of known abusers, the lies, the cover ups, the refusal of many ordinary churchgoers to believe there was a problem?

Bearing in mind that the vast majority of priests were not actual abusers, like.

[sid waddell]

Put more eloquently than I was about to. I'd add that these same attitudes apply to domestic violence which has the same issues
I.e There's too much of it, It's greatly underreported, underprosecuted and underpunished (by verdict and sentence).

All these toxic cultures that either existed or still exist are cultures of occasionally spoken, but far more often unspoken power and control in which the real truth lay/lies hidden because so many of their victims were/are scared into silence.

[Franko]

My point is that the label as it stands - ie rape culture- is so politicised that it becomes the problem. How i would describe it is a culture that in its most toxic manifestations faciltates rape. And even that description is not nuanced enough.
Arguments about the label, in my opinion, distracts us from confronting the continuing pathologies in our society around this- harassment, pay inequality, sexual violence etc- which are real and continuous problems for women. I think most of us are in agreement about the existence of those problems.

Absolutely.  But my point was that the label needs to be dropped.  The news is full of stories about the #metoo, #timesup, the gender pay gap etc.  These are all genuine issues and I don't think any reasonable person would have a problem with that.  Some of the posters on this forum, like yourself, sid and seanie have made valid and well thought out points describing other attitudes that need addressed and have caused posters (including myself) to point the mirror at themselves and really think about behaviours.

But when you try to cover these with a hyperbolic umbrella term like "rape culture" the whole message is lost.  Like I say, when 99% of people hear the term "rape culture", they think "I don't have an issue like that" and they switch off to the actual message.  (Or worse, they think that the person delivering the message is some sort of crackpot and actively try to ignore them.)

As an example, read back through this forum.  Rape culture had been mentioned many times but it wasn't until someone actually sat down and outlined the issues properly that anyone took notice.  (That, and the fact that there was actually a crackpot doing a lot of the shouting).

[Bord na Mona man]

The semantic arguments the last two posts have fixated on are just incredible.

Semantics are a step too far for simple binary thinkers like yourself.

[Syferus]

Those uncomfortable discussing an issue regularly try to distract from it and minimise it. I have little confidence that either of you are acting in good faith and your simplistic attacks on posters do little to suggest I'm wrong.

[Franko]

The points about the treatment of women are well made and I think these are often done unconsciously. It is no harm for males to take stock of some of their behaviours and how they affect women.

But to try and brand all this stuff a "rape culture" is dingbat stuff.
So lads fighting outside the chipper are part of a "killing culture" because it makes the possibly of someone dying greater.
People playing hurling are partaking in a "finger breaking culture" because the possibilities of this happening are vastly increased as opposed to playing snooker. Rugby a "neck breaking culture" etc. etc.

Unfortunately the shock jock tactics do the cause no favour. Just my thought, but I'm probably misogynistic, woman hater.

Was there/is there a culture of sexual abuse and rape in the Catholic Church? Not just the abuse itself, but the institutional closing of ranks -  the moving around of known abusers, the lies, the cover ups, the refusal of many ordinary churchgoers to believe there was a problem?

Bearing in mind that the vast majority of priests were not actual abusers, like.

No.  But I would agree that there was a culture of silence towards it that facilitated it occurring.  It's an important difference.

[Bord na Mona man]

The points about the treatment of women are well made and I think these are often done unconsciously. It is no harm for males to take stock of some of their behaviours and how they affect women.

But to try and brand all this stuff a "rape culture" is dingbat stuff.
So lads fighting outside the chipper are part of a "killing culture" because it makes the possibly of someone dying greater.
People playing hurling are partaking in a "finger breaking culture" because the possibilities of this happening are vastly increased as opposed to playing snooker. Rugby a "neck breaking culture" etc. etc.

Unfortunately the shock jock tactics do the cause no favour. Just my thought, but I'm probably misogynistic, woman hater.

Was there/is there a culture of sexual abuse and rape in the Catholic Church?

Yes, anyone who partook in the sexual abuse and other appalling acts, or facilitated in any way was part of what could be described as a rape culture.

But, the act of joining the priesthood where male primacy is enshrined is part of a rape culture going by your previous posts.

I don't see it, but that's just my opinion.

[themac_23]

I tell ya what, i know im not the only one on here who is part of WhatsApp groups or have been where fellas post stuff about women and see it as a laugh. To call it a rape culture because someone uses a few terms is a bit of a stretch for me. Lets not get this as a Rugby problem, we would be having the exact same conversation had this been an Irish league footballer or a GAA County or Club player it is just society now, hand on heart, if my mother, sister or partner seen some of the WhatsApp groups I've been in id def have a red face. Do i agree with all the things? absolutely not, is it the same conversations fellas have on a night out or in a changing room? Absolutely. What i find astonishing is the amount of people on here on their high horse who have never said a throw away comment, laughed at an inappropriate joke or been involved in a fellas WhatsApp group. What i would hope after this, if i had a lad who was a young sportsman is watch what you say, even though Craig Gilroy is 100% nothing to do with ANY part of this court case, he is dragged through the mud for a throwaway WhatsApp message, when you hit send its there and not just one 1 phone but on all the phones of those in the group

[TabClear]

I tell ya what, i know im not the only one on here who is part of WhatsApp groups or have been where fellas post stuff about women and see it as a laugh. To call it a rape culture because someone uses a few terms is a bit of a stretch for me. Lets not get this as a Rugby problem, we would be having the exact same conversation had this been an Irish league footballer or a GAA County or Club player it is just society now, hand on heart, if my mother, sister or partner seen some of the WhatsApp groups I've been in id def have a red face. Do i agree with all the things? absolutely not, is it the same conversations fellas have on a night out or in a changing room? Absolutely. What i find astonishing is the amount of people on here on their high horse who have never said a throw away comment, laughed at an inappropriate joke or been involved in a fellas WhatsApp group. What i would hope after this, if i had a lad who was a young sportsman is watch what you say, even though Craig Gilroy is 100% nothing to do with ANY part of this court case, he is dragged through the mud for a throwaway WhatsApp message, when you hit send its there and not just one 1 phone but on all the phones of those in the group

Bang on. A bit of perspective needs to be applied here

[imtommygunn]

Those uncomfortable discussing an issue regularly try to distract from it and minimise it. I have little confidence that either of you are acting in good faith and your simplistic attacks on posters do little to suggest I'm wrong.

What discussion have you added to this thread? You aren't a person who has made any effort to discuss anything whenit hasn't fully followed your rhetoric.

You seem to have adopted the attitude that you will keep people right and correct them when they don't subscribe to everything you think

[Syferus]

A lot of words to say very little.

[Tony Baloney]

A lot of words to say very little.

That could be your strapline.

[Syferus]

A lot of words to say very little.

That could be your strapline.

Your's could be 'rape culture don't exsist, lol'..

[Franko]

Those uncomfortable discussing an issue regularly try to distract from it and minimise it. I have little confidence that either of you are acting in good faith and your simplistic attacks on posters do little to suggest I'm wrong.

Yawn.