GAA crowds

[Itchy]

Cahair O Kane has his say

https://www.irishnews.com/gaa/cahair-okane-its-all-bloody-aprils-fault-isnt-it-TAS7SU3BIVBJ3JSJCTAREZZOBY/

AH, April, the GAA calendar's middle child.

Just sitting minding its business, not really bothering anyone but feeling as though it's to blame for everything.

On Sunday, Monaghan and Cavan met in Clones.

Just 8,324 people showed up.


Thanks to the explosion of commentary around the meek attendance, we've learned that this was the first GAA championship match ever to be played in middling weather.

Storm Kathleen blew straight down the field in Clones. It didn't really rain or anything, but damn you anyway April.

If only we'd waited another few weeks for our standard three months of summer sunshine to begin, then the people would have flocked. Flocked, I tell ye!

On Saturday week, Derry play Donegal in Celtic Park.

Same competition. Same month. Fair good chance it'll even lash the rain.


Club committees have been investing heavily in reinforced glass from behind which they can tell members that there just aren't enough tickets.

In Derry, clubs have been given 10 seated tickets, 50 for the main terrace and 50 more for behind the goal. Many have restricted their allocations to just one-per-person.

When those two counties met in the 1993 Ulster final, the Donegal Democrat's preview of the match began by recalling how not even 5,000 people had turned up when they'd met three years previous.

The game had clashed with Ireland's World Cup game against Egypt, just as the same two counties would clash with the 2002 penalty shootout against Spain.

On July 18, 1993, Clones was a mudbath. The rain didn't take time to fall out of the sky.


In the minor game, Cathal Scullion from Derry broke his leg.

Neither side has ever really deviated from the sentiment that the senior game should never have gone ahead.

It's nine months since Dublin and Kerry met in the 2023 All-Ireland final on the last day of July.

Every third head in the crowd was covered by a yellow mac bought on the streets outside Croke Park. It poured non-stop for two hours.

But April.


Yeah, the old Club Month. Could we not go back to that utopia? Sure didn't the clubs have it great, they got their lads for a full month.

Except county training carried on, and naturally that's where they went.

And inter-county challenge games too.

And sure what odds about club games in April really? Best not to chance it in case you pick up a knock.

Who the hell would blame them for that? It was a total nonsense of an operation with no winners.


Some counties, particularly big dual counties, were so desperate for space in the calendar that they threw in two rounds of club championship in April.

By the end of game two, hundreds of young lads were off looking for their J1 visa, their footballing year over already.

Could we not go back to that though?

Because All-Ireland finals in July just don't hit the same, apparently.

Look at the thousands of empty seats in Croke Park last summer.

Of the 82,300 capacity for the All-Ireland football and hurling finals there were only... er... *checks notes*... 82,300 there.

That there were only 43,192 people at Derry's semi-final against Kerry was deemed worthy of note.

Must be because we're playing championship in April now.

2004 was the second-highest attended football championship in history, drawing in 1.157m spectators at the gates, second only to the previous year.

When Derry and Kerry met at the same stage in the stadium at The Proper Time For An All-Ireland Semi-Final, there were 35,457 at it.

Only five years ago, just 33,848 turned up for a Kerry-Tyrone semi-final in the middle of August.

But damn you April and your split season, go on out of the road with ye.

Recency bias: That there were only 43,192 people at Derry's semi-final against Kerry was deemed worthy of note - but that was almost 10,000 more than when the same two counties met at the same stage in 2004.

Gaelic football has an attendances problem but it has had an attendances problem almost 15 years.

The decline in fans coming through the gates for championship football has been masked by continually adding more games.

In 2015, the Ulster Championship drew a combined attendance of 140,000 people.

The first year of the April championship in 2022, that figure dropped to 99,000.

But then, guess what? Last year, played in April and May, it jumped back up to more than 112,000.

That is not evidence of big crowds of yesteryear but it's evidence that April isn't the problem here.

Why fans stay away is a combination of factors.

One of the most significant is always ticket prices.

If a Monaghan fan had gone to all their games so far this year, they'd have spent over €200 on tickets, an average of more than €100 on fuel and then the rest.

For Cavan fans, it's been €189 on tickets and over €165 on fuel because their fixture list wasn't as kind.

Everyone always hopes there's more to be spent, but they don't always have it to spend.

If prices stay as they were last year, the round-robin stage alone will cost €75, at €25 per game.

An Ulster final, €35.

A possible All-Ireland preliminary quarter-final, another €25. Quarter-final, €40.

Semi-final, €50.

There's talk that tickets for the final will jump from €90 to €100 this year.

The absence of a proper season ticket that gives supporters really good value and rewards their loyalty is a massive blind spot.

When the GAA announced a price hike in National League tickets at the start of the year, they promised championship packages. Those are nowhere to be seen yet.

They'll play on the fact that the provincial championships aren't centrally organised by Croke Park but the average punter sees championship as championship, rightly so.

Weather can be a factor but when you look at how the 10,000 figure is regularly topped in Division One of the league, played in February and March, then you can't really hold tight to that buoy.

Ulster people have been out fighting the corner of our provincial championship hard, naturally. It is brilliant.

But it's tied down by the dead weight of the other three.

If Cavan reach an Ulster final, they'll sell out Clones twice over. Same for everyone else.

Louth brought thousands upon thousands of people to Croke Park for last year's Leinster final, but there were still only 40,000 there in total, because the Dubs have stopped bothering altogether.

Dean Rock's admission last week that he doesn't know how many Leinster medals he has was just a truthful reflection of the reality.

We're guilty up here of being the one-eyed man, seeing only the good in Ulster, without really wondering why the rest of Gaelic football should hitch itself to dead competitions because ours still works.

Do we break Ulster football if we let go? Maybe the selfishness is justified.

Fans are voting with their feet, not in the sense of abandoning the sport, because the league is thriving. The All-Ireland series remains healthy.

It's just this bit of flab in the middle that isn't doing it for the viewing public.

But nah, don't worry about any of that.

It's all because we're playing championship in April.

[JoG2]

Thanks Itchy 

[Rossfan]

The once excellent season ticket scheme has been totally fkd up this season and was also being downgraded the last 2 seasons.

The oul problem of the folks who set the prices never have to pay in themselves.

[clonadmad]

Great article/ piece with Jim Mcguinness in today's Irish News, a full throated defence of USFC & the provincial series. He made the point, that has been made here before, that counties trying to compete v Dublin and Kerry need financial support and development plans to make them competitive  again - as a better alternative to just scrapping them.

The provincial structure is broken and most people just want them moved to the start of the season. Most counties voted for a structure in 2021 which would see them be played first followed by a league based championship. Now we've ended up with a structure which tries to please everyone and is condensed into half the year despite having more games.

If most counties voted that it would have been seen with the vote The current structure we have was voted in by Congress and any change will have to be done via Congress again.

Anyone I have spoken to recently about this said that the system doesn't work. There is no objection to making time for clubs but they all say there are too many games in too short a time period. People hope Jarlath burns will put some smacht on things. 

Too many games doesn't wash. Nearly everyone thats ever played will say they'd far rather play more games rather than train for weeks on end behind games.

I predict a  grassroots movement for change at the next Congress.

Grassroots ?

Grassroots is the club's, son who are delighted with the defined split season

Not so happy are the paid shills and expensed intercounty managers who have had a bit of power taken away from them.

Oh and the prawn sandwich crew which live for the days in Premium in "Croker" and would struggle to find their nearest club grounds

Maybe the Club Players Association with its 25,000 members should come back into being to lobby every CLUB delegate before every county convention, should any motion to erode what has been hard won come before Congress

Everybody who follows county has a club and is grassroots. It is not one or the other. People are happy with more time for clubs but not with the state of the all Ireland- things like not playing in August and September, the rushed nature of things, the lack of joined up thinking.

The current all Ireland system is not a solution. And club vs county is not a culture war. Most people are both. They want an all Ireland system that works.

Go on then

Give us a system that "works"

Because all I'm seeing everywhere is a whole load of lads that are making money out of the game whinging

But not offering a lot of workable solutions

[imtommygunn]

exactly. Sounds like a paid journalist with little else to talk about.

[RedHand88]

The difference in quality between provincial championships is distorting the argument I think. Some are box office (Ulster football, Munster hurling), whereas others are completely pointless and are actively suffocating the game (don't need to mention where). I for one would not want to see them abolished if it meant no ulster championship.
As a club and county supporter I like the split season.
Not going to pretend I know how players feel though so would be interesting to hear.

I will add I don't understand the too many games argument either. So what if a county team plays 6 games in 6 weekends or whatever, wouldn't this be standard at club level? It's not like teams are being asked to play multiple games a week. Is 1 game a week over a few months too much?

[seafoid]

Great article/ piece with Jim Mcguinness in today's Irish News, a full throated defence of USFC & the provincial series. He made the point, that has been made here before, that counties trying to compete v Dublin and Kerry need financial support and development plans to make them competitive  again - as a better alternative to just scrapping them.

The provincial structure is broken and most people just want them moved to the start of the season. Most counties voted for a structure in 2021 which would see them be played first followed by a league based championship. Now we've ended up with a structure which tries to please everyone and is condensed into half the year despite having more games.

If most counties voted that it would have been seen with the vote The current structure we have was voted in by Congress and any change will have to be done via Congress again.

Anyone I have spoken to recently about this said that the system doesn't work. There is no objection to making time for clubs but they all say there are too many games in too short a time period. People hope Jarlath burns will put some smacht on things. 

Too many games doesn't wash. Nearly everyone thats ever played will say they'd far rather play more games rather than train for weeks on end behind games.

I predict a  grassroots movement for change at the next Congress.

Grassroots ?

Grassroots is the club's, son who are delighted with the defined split season

Not so happy are the paid shills and expensed intercounty managers who have had a bit of power taken away from them.

Oh and the prawn sandwich crew which live for the days in Premium in "Croker" and would struggle to find their nearest club grounds

Maybe the Club Players Association with its 25,000 members should come back into being to lobby every CLUB delegate before every county convention, should any motion to erode what has been hard won come before Congress

Everybody who follows county has a club and is grassroots. It is not one or the other. People are happy with more time for clubs but not with the state of the all Ireland- things like not playing in August and September, the rushed nature of things, the lack of joined up thinking.

The current all Ireland system is not a solution. And club vs county is not a culture war. Most people are both. They want an all Ireland system that works.

Go on then

Give us a system that "works"

Because all I'm seeing everywhere is a whole load of lads that are making money out of the game whinging

But not offering a lot of workable solutions

Have you ever come across Michael Foley's analysis? He did it in last Sunday's sunday times.
There are too many matches that don't mean anything. The league has been devalued.The championship has elements of the league. And there is no margin.  I think the club idea is fine. It's how the championship is run

This is what he said : 


"The GAA aren't quite there yet with running the provincial championship in early spring before stretching a league-based all Ireland championship from April to early august "

What would you think of that ?

[square_ball]

I will add I don't understand the too many games argument either. So what if a county team plays 6 games in 6 weekends or whatever, wouldn't this be standard at club level? It's not like teams are being asked to play multiple games a week. Is 1 game a week over a few months too much?

I agree with this. For example Tyrone if they were to make the All Ireland final via winning Ulster (I know I know highly unlikely but not impossible) they would play 9 matches in 15 weeks from 21st April to 28th July. Is that excessive? They played 8 matches in the same number of weeks in the old system in 2008 though I appreciate they would have had a longer break between league and championship but would have been playing club football in that break.

[clonadmad]

Great article/ piece with Jim Mcguinness in today's Irish News, a full throated defence of USFC & the provincial series. He made the point, that has been made here before, that counties trying to compete v Dublin and Kerry need financial support and development plans to make them competitive  again - as a better alternative to just scrapping them.

The provincial structure is broken and most people just want them moved to the start of the season. Most counties voted for a structure in 2021 which would see them be played first followed by a league based championship. Now we've ended up with a structure which tries to please everyone and is condensed into half the year despite having more games.

If most counties voted that it would have been seen with the vote The current structure we have was voted in by Congress and any change will have to be done via Congress again.

Anyone I have spoken to recently about this said that the system doesn't work. There is no objection to making time for clubs but they all say there are too many games in too short a time period. People hope Jarlath burns will put some smacht on things. 

Too many games doesn't wash. Nearly everyone thats ever played will say they'd far rather play more games rather than train for weeks on end behind games.

I predict a  grassroots movement for change at the next Congress.

Grassroots ?

Grassroots is the club's, son who are delighted with the defined split season

Not so happy are the paid shills and expensed intercounty managers who have had a bit of power taken away from them.

Oh and the prawn sandwich crew which live for the days in Premium in "Croker" and would struggle to find their nearest club grounds

Maybe the Club Players Association with its 25,000 members should come back into being to lobby every CLUB delegate before every county convention, should any motion to erode what has been hard won come before Congress

Everybody who follows county has a club and is grassroots. It is not one or the other. People are happy with more time for clubs but not with the state of the all Ireland- things like not playing in August and September, the rushed nature of things, the lack of joined up thinking.

The current all Ireland system is not a solution. And club vs county is not a culture war. Most people are both. They want an all Ireland system that works.

Go on then

Give us a system that "works"

Because all I'm seeing everywhere is a whole load of lads that are making money out of the game whinging

But not offering a lot of workable solutions

Have you ever come across Michael Foley's analysis? He did it in last Sunday's sunday times.
There are too many matches that don't mean anything. The league has been devalued.The championship has elements of the league. And there is no margin.  I think the club idea is fine. It's how the championship is run

This is what he said : 


"The GAA aren't quite there yet with running the provincial championship in early spring before stretching a league-based all Ireland championship from April to early august "

What would you think of that ?

Firstly that's Michael Foleys solution not your own

Do you have a solution that isn't anyone else's ?

Secondly

Foleys solution adds a week at most to the intercounty season which isn't what the vast majority of anti split season proponents in the media are looking for.

They want a return to all Irelands in September

Thirdly

It's highly improbable that the GAA will ditch their second most important national competition


Here's what I'd do and I'm speaking purely from a hurling viewpoint

1.Every County needs at least 2 hybrid pitchs and every province at least one dome

The weather is changing and infrastructure needs to be put in  to recognise this and also allow for greater numbers playing our games

A trip to Iceland might open lads eyes in terms of sporting infrastructure

2.Intercounty season goes from January to end July

Club August to December

3.Put a cap on intercounty training sessions and a cap on team spending

Both are an out of control industry at the minute

You had that football manager from Roscommon claiming they had done 75 sessions in 80 days like it was some sort of badge of honor when even anyone with basic cop on would know that rest and recovery are more important than training

Counties allowed to start training end of November at the minute

Ban that also

County Training starts January

Players needs at least December off if they aren't involved in club finals

Monitor Enforce and Fine heavily if it's being broken

4.Scrap all early season competitions

Scrap League Semi finals

Scrap preliminary championship quarter finals

The winner of the Joe Mc Donagh plays Liam McCarthy the following year but get rid of the farce of the Joe McDonagh finalists taking trimmings every year in the preliminary quarter finals

All this frees up a min of 2 months in a 6 month schedule

5.Market the Games

Lads claiming that All Irelands in September inspires kids

We have had 120 odd Hurling Finals in September and Hurling hasn't grown outside of its traditional base in all that time

GAA marketing is a laughable oxymoron

The only time it's been effective is when the likes of Guinness have ran campaigns

Headhunt and hire in people who have worked with the rugby,they know how to turn a sows ear into a silk purse in terms of visibility engagement and ticket sales

[tyrone08]

I will add I don't understand the too many games argument either. So what if a county team plays 6 games in 6 weekends or whatever, wouldn't this be standard at club level? It's not like teams are being asked to play multiple games a week. Is 1 game a week over a few months too much?

I agree with this. For example Tyrone if they were to make the All Ireland final via winning Ulster (I know I know highly unlikely but not impossible) they would play 9 matches in 15 weeks from 21st April to 28th July. Is that excessive? They played 8 matches in the same number of weeks in the old system in 2008 though I appreciate they would have had a longer break between league and championship but would have been playing club football in that break.

The issue isnt the players its the fans. If you took a family of 4 to all 9 games in the 15 weeks at todays prices it would cost a fortunate for the tickets and fuel alone never mind actually buying anything.

Say this weekend for armagh fans. 2 adults and 2 kids is £40 plus another £20 in fuel. £60 before a drink or snack is bought.

Bear in mind the costs goes up significantly as the season progresses.

[Sportacus]

Still can't work out why we don't have an All Ireland Senior, Intermediate and Junior Championship.  Works a treat at club level where every trophy is hard fought and cherished. It would deliver lots more meaningful, evenly contested and attractive games.
Everything else adds to the issue: ticket prices; state of grounds; tv coverage; other sports etc.
The quality of the product is an issue with the coaches, not the rules.
And how many people even knew Monaghan were playing Cavan on Sunday - it just crept up.

[JoG2]

Great article/ piece with Jim Mcguinness in today's Irish News, a full throated defence of USFC & the provincial series. He made the point, that has been made here before, that counties trying to compete v Dublin and Kerry need financial support and development plans to make them competitive  again - as a better alternative to just scrapping them.

The provincial structure is broken and most people just want them moved to the start of the season. Most counties voted for a structure in 2021 which would see them be played first followed by a league based championship. Now we've ended up with a structure which tries to please everyone and is condensed into half the year despite having more games.

If most counties voted that it would have been seen with the vote The current structure we have was voted in by Congress and any change will have to be done via Congress again.

Anyone I have spoken to recently about this said that the system doesn't work. There is no objection to making time for clubs but they all say there are too many games in too short a time period. People hope Jarlath burns will put some smacht on things. 

Too many games doesn't wash. Nearly everyone thats ever played will say they'd far rather play more games rather than train for weeks on end behind games.

I predict a  grassroots movement for change at the next Congress.

Grassroots ?

Grassroots is the club's, son who are delighted with the defined split season

Not so happy are the paid shills and expensed intercounty managers who have had a bit of power taken away from them.

Oh and the prawn sandwich crew which live for the days in Premium in "Croker" and would struggle to find their nearest club grounds

Maybe the Club Players Association with its 25,000 members should come back into being to lobby every CLUB delegate before every county convention, should any motion to erode what has been hard won come before Congress

Everybody who follows county has a club and is grassroots. It is not one or the other. People are happy with more time for clubs but not with the state of the all Ireland- things like not playing in August and September, the rushed nature of things, the lack of joined up thinking.

The current all Ireland system is not a solution. And club vs county is not a culture war. Most people are both. They want an all Ireland system that works.

Go on then

Give us a system that "works"

Because all I'm seeing everywhere is a whole load of lads that are making money out of the game whinging

But not offering a lot of workable solutions

Have you ever come across Michael Foley's analysis? He did it in last Sunday's sunday times.
There are too many matches that don't mean anything. The league has been devalued.The championship has elements of the league. And there is no margin.  I think the club idea is fine. It's how the championship is run

This is what he said : 


"The GAA aren't quite there yet with running the provincial championship in early spring before stretching a league-based all Ireland championship from April to early august "

What would you think of that ?

Firstly that's Michael Foleys solution not your own

Do you have a solution that isn't anyone else's ?

Secondly

Foleys solution adds a week at most to the intercounty season which isn't what the vast majority of anti split season proponents in the media are looking for.

They want a return to all Irelands in September

Thirdly

It's highly improbable that the GAA will ditch their second most important national competition


Here's what I'd do and I'm speaking purely from a hurling viewpoint

1.Every County needs at least 2 hybrid pitchs and every province at least one dome

The weather is changing and infrastructure needs to be put in  to recognise this and also allow for greater numbers playing our games

A trip to Iceland might open lads eyes in terms of sporting infrastructure

2.Intercounty season goes from January to end July

Club August to December

3.Put a cap on intercounty training sessions and a cap on team spending

Both are an out of control industry at the minute

You had that football manager from Roscommon claiming they had done 75 sessions in 80 days like it was some sort of badge of honor when even anyone with basic cop on would know that rest and recovery are more important than training

Counties allowed to start training end of November at the minute

Ban that also

County Training starts January

Players needs at least December off if they aren't involved in club finals

Monitor Enforce and Fine heavily if it's being broken

4.Scrap all early season competitions

Scrap League Semi finals

Scrap preliminary championship quarter finals

The winner of the Joe Mc Donagh plays Liam McCarthy the following year but get rid of the farce of the Joe McDonagh finalists taking trimmings every year in the preliminary quarter finals

All this frees up a min of 2 months in a 6 month schedule

5.Market the Games

Lads claiming that All Irelands in September inspires kids

We have had 120 odd Hurling Finals in September and Hurling hasn't grown outside of its traditional base in all that time

GAA marketing is a laughable oxymoron

The only time it's been effective is when the likes of Guinness have ran campaigns

Headhunt and hire in people who have worked with the rugby,they know how to turn a sows ear into a silk purse in terms of visibility engagement and ticket sales

You talk about the importance of recovery and training less, but you want adult teams to train and play more on synthetic pitches?

[RedHand88]

Insurance will go through the roof after the 10th ACL in a team who train on a synthetic pitch.

[johnnycool]

Insurance will go through the roof after the 10th ACL in a team who train on a synthetic pitch.

I've my doubts about 3G/4G pitches and ACL's as well, but have you any evidence on this?

[Itchy]

Insurance will go through the roof after the 10th ACL in a team who train on a synthetic pitch.

I've my doubts about 3G/4G pitches and ACL's as well, but have you any evidence on this?

I have a contact in SIS that make synthetic pitches. He reckons in a few years insurance companies will start refusing insurance cover on Astros that don't have the shock proof underlay on them. That underlay probably adds 80k to the cost of an Astro and it is compulsory in rugby but not in GAA and Soccer as far as I am aware.