Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball

[thewobbler]

The team with the ball has a hell of a lot less space to operate in and therefore can be smothered and snuffed out more easily. They have no back door. Defending teams don't have far to come out. They will never get sucked out to chase the ball. They never need to bother tackling in their forward line. Wait til the cross the halfway line. It'll be easier.

Right, hold on.

If applied, why wouldn't defenders leave their own half? If they don't, the opposition could safely play keepball unchallenged for the rest of the match, with absolutely no reason to go forward. They could even bring all 15 of their players back and play 1-yard hand passes to their heart's content.

The onus would be completely on the defending team to get up and set traps. In doing so, they'd leave gaps for the attacking team to play football.

Defending teams are currently not pushing up because it means 80 yard runs in either direction to watch balls being kicked over their heads in both directions. They're piggies in the middle, except the middle is half the size of Mother Earth.

I can't believe this needs explaining.

[thewobbler]

I mean as soon as the ball goes over the halfway mark, 15 behind the ball knowing that the attacking team only has half the pitch to play in. That makes it much easier for a packed defence.

Which should encourage quicker and more direct attacks, as a good pass will take out the entire frontline defence every time

[dublin7]

I mean as soon as the ball goes over the halfway mark, 15 behind the ball knowing that the attacking team only has half the pitch to play in. That makes it much easier for a packed defence.

Which should encourage quicker and more direct attacks, as a good pass will take out the entire frontline defence every time

Talking rubbish wobbler. Under your rules the defending team sits deep in their own half to allow attacking team to cross the half way line. The attacking team has no space to attack into and when defending side push up they can't go backwards past the half way line. Would be terrible to watch and discourage attacking play

[thewobbler]

Anyhow you're toiling under the misconception that such a rule change only affects (in the recent high profile match) Dublin's attacking play.

Take the scenario that Dublin cross half way and reach the first line of Donegal defence. Dublin have a couple of men holding fort at the halfway line , while Donegal are all back inside the 65. Dublin are dispossessed. Michael Murphy now has two choices, turn back and play backwards, which basically gives Dublin 5-10 seconds to reset in full, or else drive at them.

Within a few seconds, he's over the halfway line. Now he needs support. And more than one man, he needs runners and his runners need runners, or else it's a turnover in open play at the halfway line.

Think this out. Players on both sides have no choice but to commit.

[thewobbler]

I mean as soon as the ball goes over the halfway mark, 15 behind the ball knowing that the attacking team only has half the pitch to play in. That makes it much easier for a packed defence.

Which should encourage quicker and more direct attacks, as a good pass will take out the entire frontline defence every time

Talking rubbish wobbler. Under your rules the defending team sits deep in their own half to allow attacking team to cross the half way line. The attacking team has no space to attack into and when defending side push up they can't go backwards past the half way line. Would be terrible to watch and discourage attacking play

As I keep pointing out, by implementing a line in the sand, and an incentive to cross over, it becomes clear that it's Donegal's issue if they refuse to push up.

[dublin7]

Anyhow you're toiling under the misconception that such a rule change only affects (in the recent high profile match) Dublin's attacking play.

Take the scenario that Dublin cross half way and reach the first line of Donegal defence. Dublin have a couple of men holding fort at the halfway line , while Donegal are all back inside the 65. Dublin are dispossessed. Michael Murphy now has two choices, turn back and play backwards, which basically gives Dublin 5-10 seconds to reset in full, or else drive at them.

Within a few seconds, he's over the halfway line. Now he needs support. And more than one man, he needs runners and his runners need runners, or else it's a turnover in open play at the halfway line.

Think this out. Players on both sides have no choice but to commit.

What about Dublin who are trying to attack. Can't play the long ball in because Donegal have everyone back. Can't go back past half way so Donegal know they don't have to push up very far. Dublin are one of the few teams in the league who kick pass consistently. This rule would take that option more or less out of the game and lead to games full of handpassing.

[BennyHarp]

Is this problem of passing the ball around the front of the blanket defence really such a big issue? As far as I can see only Dublin on a limited number of occasions have done this. It's a relatively new tactic to suck out the blanket defence which I think by the end of the year will have a tactic devised to counteract it. I'd say as we speak, Mickey Harte, Declan Bonner, Kevin Walsh et al are coming up with a plan to carry out if they find themselves 3 points down and with the dubs throwing the ball about in front of them. Give managers time to work this out, the blanket is nearly a busted flush at this stage due to tactics devised to overcome it, as is the short kick out. Let's not change the rules too often.

[Stall the Bailer]

I asked the same problem earlier and only wobbler replied to say it is almost epidemic in down div 1. I don't see it much of an issue, happens in a few county games every year. A lot of other issues that need addressed before this.

[Blue Island]

The rules have to change and evolve.

A lot of posters appear to mistake genuine concern for the health of the game for an attack on Dublin, or other superior teams. I would not blame Dublin one bit and the onus was certainly on Donegal to go looking for the ball.

Also, I think there is no doubt players today are fitter and their skill levels are vastly superior to players 25 years ago. It is a common sight today to see a corner back solo the ball 50 yards and score a point, unheard of 25 years ago. From number 1 to 15 all players have to now be comfortable on the ball. Some of the point scoring in the last decade has been outstanding and demonstrative of hours of practice.  The professionalism of the management teams is far more advanced today. Yet for all these advances the game has went backwards as a spectacle.

It is nonsense to say this is jumping on the Brolly/O'Rourke bandwagon. That is dismissing the intelligence of the many growing number of disgruntled viewers who can see for themselves the problems. Even in the higher scoring games, involving scores of the highest caliber, there are still many incidents of this utterly boring phase of hand passing throughout the games. At least back in the day the other team would have to win a battle in midfield before attempting to hand pass the life out of a game.

Genuine football people are really becoming disillusioned and I don't know why people can't see that.

As for a solution, any rule changes would have to be tested in the league. The limit to hand passes would be difficult for the ref and I agree that it would only result in players becoming more adept at short foot passes. The stop clock to limit the amount of time a team has to shoot would be a god send for defensive teams.

The key is to stop the contraction of space by defensively minded teams (basically every teams nowadays) who play with nearly everyone behind the ball when the other team has it. I would suggest  once the other team crosses the halfway mark they are not allowed to pass back. Of course that encourages the attacking team to attack once across the line, but encourages the blanket. I would suggest a stop clock, but in reverse. From the kick out the defensive team has say 25 seconds to get a hand on the ball, otherwise a 45 meter free to their opponents. No more blanket and this may open up the space around the field. I don't think it is beyond the technology we have now. It should not be left to the referee. A simple digital countdown like they have in basketball. That would draw them out and perhaps add to the excitment.

[BennyHarp]

The rules have to change and evolve.

A lot of posters appear to mistake genuine concern for the health of the game for an attack on Dublin, or other superior teams. I would not blame Dublin one bit and the onus was certainly on Donegal to go looking for the ball.

Also, I think there is no doubt players today are fitter and their skill levels are vastly superior to players 25 years ago. It is a common sight today to see a corner back solo the ball 50 yards and score a point, unheard of 25 years ago. From number 1 to 15 all players have to now be comfortable on the ball. Some of the point scoring in the last decade has been outstanding and demonstrative of hours of practice.  The professionalism of the management teams is far more advanced today. Yet for all these advances the game has went backwards as a spectacle.

It is nonsense to say this is jumping on the Brolly/O'Rourke bandwagon. That is dismissing the intelligence of the many growing number of disgruntled viewers who can see for themselves the problems. Even in the higher scoring games, involving scores of the highest caliber, there are still many incidents of this utterly boring phase of hand passing throughout the games. At least back in the day the other team would have to win a battle in midfield before attempting to hand pass the life out of a game.

Genuine football people are really becoming disillusioned and I don't know why people can't see that.

As for a solution, any rule changes would have to be tested in the league. The limit to hand passes would be difficult for the ref and I agree that it would only result in players becoming more adept at short foot passes. The stop clock to limit the amount of time a team has to shoot would be a god send for defensive teams.

The key is to stop the contraction of space by defensively minded teams (basically every teams nowadays) who play with nearly everyone behind the ball when the other team has it. I would suggest  once the other team crosses the halfway mark they are not allowed to pass back. Of course that encourages the attacking team to attack once across the line, but encourages the blanket. I would suggest a stop clock, but in reverse. From the kick out the defensive team has say 25 seconds to get a hand on the ball, otherwise a 45 meter free to their opponents. No more blanket and this may open up the space around the field. I don't think it is beyond the technology we have now. It should not be left to the referee. A simple digital countdown like they have in basketball. That would draw them out and perhaps add to the excitment.

Are you being serious here?

[thewobbler]

25 seconds of hand passing around your back line and you get a 50?

Christ!

While I don't particularly like the idea, the concept he has come up with is one designed to deliberately force everyone back into the original man-on-man sport that was Gaelic football. It's lateral thinking and is actually quite clever.

I'm not sure if anyone who decries Donegal's blanket defence should really disagree with it tbh!

[Blue Island]

25 seconds of hand passing around your back line and you get a 50?

Christ!

25 seconds of hand passing around your back line might seem like a piece of piss now, given the way the game is played. But it would be a lot more difficult if the the other team were forced to push up. Also, it does not necessarily have to be 25 seconds, it could be longer. But the point remains, a lot of people are serious that a discussion need to take place regarding a rule change, or football will start hemorrhaging support.

[lfdown2]

In my opinion what's wrong is the competition rules, not the games rules. The reason we had so many shit games before the 'super 8s' was because too many of those games had 2 teams at differing levels, and the reason the first week of the 'super 8s' were so bad is because it is not a knock out, in relation to Donegal Dublin, there is no way Donegal would have allowed Dublin play keep ball for 15 min if a defer meant their summer was over, they would have been forced to come out and take a man each, if they have designs on winning an AI (or if anyone has for that matter) they'd want to be fit enough to force a turn over. The next 2 weeks I would anticipate more competitive fare.

Failing that once the the coverage right come up again as available to the wireless only.

[Blue Island]

Sorry but that's nonsense. You are proposing that a team get a free in for doing nothing but keeping possession! This has gone full circle.

Totally ludicrous.

I am not suggesting that there would be a free for any given 25 second period of possession. The period would only start from the kick out and end when the half way line is breached, or the ball is touched by the opposition. You probably would not even notice it after a while in a game. The opposition would have to push up on the kick out and the reality is the kick out would probably have to go longer more often. Any short kick outs would result in serious press from the opposition.

I did suggest 25 seconds, but if that is perhaps too short a time frame it could be lengthened. I would imagine it could be lengthened to such a time frame that would result in a free of this nature being given relatively rarely, but enough of deterrent for teams getting back in defence and constricting the space. It's this lack of space in the forward line for the attacking team which is ruining the nature of the game.

Gone are the days of the one to one battles around the pitch. Football used to be superior to soccer, because even when scores were not happening, big shoulders out the field, a leaping full forward rising to catch the ball, or a corner forward going toe to toe with a corner back used to get the crowd roaring. There were more big moments to appreciate in a match. I don't blame the managers and players for the type of football played today. It's the best way to play under the present rules, but this disillusionment that is spreading is not some conspiracy created by Brolly etc.

[trileacman]

Passing the ball around ad nasuem is a huge problem for the game, especially to run down the clock, so I'd have to disagree with you there hardstation.

I understand that all law changes carry the guarantee of unintended consequences but for me a shot clock would probably be the best method of opening up the game. I know you say that the defensive team only have to defend for 1 minute and be rewarded with a free but when they are given possession they become the offensive team and now have to work a score in 60 seconds (or 30, 45 seconds, whichever seems most natural). So by playing defensive they string themselves up offensively. For me the most likely outcome is that managers realise possession isn't paramount but creating good scoring opportunities and having top class finishers to take them is. Hence they'd revert to more traditional styles to ensure enough quality attackers are on the pitch and high enough up to create and score points/goals.

The no back-pass behind half-way is a dogshit suggestion as it simply moves the blanket exclusion zone from the 45m to the halfway line. Teams currently look to pressure players and swallow them up around the D because there they can have them completely surrounded by defenders. A no- back pass rule would simply allow teams to use the halfway line as a impenetrable line of defenders, simply wait for a lad to carry the ball over halfway and smother his forward options, driving him back to a place where he has no options but to foul the ball. There's a reason players recycle possession when an attack ends up in a corner, they've run out of road and are surrounded on 2 sides by the endline and on one side by the defending team. I can't believe that cutting off the offensive teams last option is seen as a incentive for attacking play.

Lastly and most importantly you're all missing the key point by saying Donegal should have just pushed up, went man-to-man and won the ball back off Dublin. That isn't possible unless you send a man up to man-mark Cluxton. Going man to man would mean you'd have 2 midfielders between the 45's and 6 forwards trying to dispossess 6 backs and a goal-keeper. With the ball skill and fitness of today's top footballers, 7 players will keep the ball off 6 players in an area 90m by 45m endlessly, once the initial attempts to dispossess fail your inside forwards tire and the hope of a turnover is lost.

Donegal had too options the last day, hope Dublin attacked and they got a turnover or it went wide or truly go man to man by pushing a defender up on Cluxton, leaving Dublin a free forward up top. Donegal's options were basically do what they were doing or concede a score.

Agreed with the doubters that a ref could keep a score clock by himself whilst still completing all his other duties so that likely downs it as a suggestion for congress unfortunately. I just don't see any other workable suggestions out there that don't fundamentally alter the game as we know it.

Does anyone here honestly believe the game hasn't decreased as a spectacle in the last 10 years? I thought we'd reached the nadir last year as Tyrone and Donegal were much more offensive in the league this year and a supposed golden generation of Kerry forwards were on the cusp of their senior careers. However the round of super 8 games seen the team with the better blanket defence progress and those who could hold possession for the longest. Since Dublin took the lessons of '14 and started playing Jimmyball they've been unstoppable and it looks set to continue for a long time.