Mayweather v Mc Gregor

Started by Targetman, June 14, 2017, 11:19:59 PM

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6th sam

#150
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 23, 2017, 08:46:18 PM
Firstly, Sonia proved herself over a decade of performance and at several distances. She didn't just win a couple of races.

Secondly, just because MMA is a well known popular sport doesn't mean that someone who does a less popular sport isn't a sportiing great. That's just ignorant. So does teh popularity of the sport determine how much value the athlete has? Crap talk. Buster Douglas won a Heavyweight world title does that make him a far more worthy sportsman than 5 time gold medailst Chris Hoy becuase less people watch track cycling?????

Thirdly, McGregor is not a great. Christ, he has only had three title fights. He has lost 3 out of 24 fights. He's unusual yes in that he transferred divisions but that is hardly a jaw dropping feat. Very common in combat sports. In fact every combat sport has some multi-weight champions. It's not like he is Pacquaio who won across seven weights. Come to think of it Mayweather has won across five.

Whhat is great about a huge self promotion drive and three title wins. Good - yes, Very good - probably, Best around now - Well lets see a lot more fights first. Great - Laughable, three championship wins and only one defense. Stop kidding people. Many, many more wins needed to earn that accolade.
I'm not going to run down Conor, I'll leave the objective analysis to those who know more about boxing/mma. However running down Sonia's achievements is ridiculous. MMA is a tough sport but the razzamatazz , recent surge of interest, and questionable regulation mean that MMA is a long way off boxing , athletics etc in terms of prestige. Trying to place MMA in an elevated position because of recent promotional success , doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
In my opinion a sport's prestige is directly correlated to its worldwide participation. For example , millions play soccer and reaching the top in soccer(Roy Keane)  has serious credibility. MMA by comparison has minimal participation throughout the world and its regulatory procedures are questionable, so it doesn't have the same prestige as boxing , for example. Most of the best sportspeople in Ireland are in GAA ,golf, horse racing , soccer, rugby, boxing , athletics ,. To reach the top in Ireland in MMA you are a tough customer and deserve great credit , but tbh you don't have the competition you would get in the other sports at the top level. Fair play to Conor, but Syferus don't confuse hype with prestige!
I'm no begrudger , just trying to contextualise Conor's success.

Syferus

Quote from: 6th sam on June 24, 2017, 12:26:01 AM
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 23, 2017, 08:46:18 PM
Firstly, Sonia proved herself over a decade of performance and at several distances. She didn't just win a couple of races.

Secondly, just because MMA is a well known popular sport doesn't mean that someone who does a less popular sport isn't a sportiing great. That's just ignorant. So does teh popularity of the sport determine how much value the athlete has? Crap talk. Buster Douglas won a Heavyweight world title does that make him a far more worthy sportsman than 5 time gold medailst Chris Hoy becuase less people watch track cycling?????

Thirdly, McGregor is not a great. Christ, he has only had three title fights. He has lost 3 out of 24 fights. He's unusual yes in that he transferred divisions but that is hardly a jaw dropping feat. Very common in combat sports. In fact every combat sport has some multi-weight champions. It's not like he is Pacquaio who won across seven weights. Come to think of it Mayweather has won across five.

Whhat is great about a huge self promotion drive and three title wins. Good - yes, Very good - probably, Best around now - Well lets see a lot more fights first. Great - Laughable, three championship wins and only one defense. Stop kidding people. Many, many more wins needed to earn that accolade.
I'm not going to run down Conor, I'll leave the objective analysis to those who know more about boxing/mma. However running down Sonia's achievements is ridiculous. MMA is a tough sport but the razzamatazz , recent surge of interest, and questionable regulation mean that MMA is a long way off boxing , athletics etc in terms of prestige. Trying to place MMA in an elevated position because of recent promotional success , doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
In my opinion a sport's prestige is directly correlated to its worldwide participation. For example , millions play soccer and reaching the top in soccer(Roy Keane)  has serious credibility. MMA by comparison has minimal participation throughout the world and its regulatory procedures are questionable, so it doesn't have the same prestige as boxing , for example. Most of the best sportspeople in Ireland are in GAA ,golf, horse racing , soccer, rugby, boxing , athletics ,. To reach the top in Ireland in MMA you are a tough customer and deserve great credit , but tbh you don't have the competition you would get in the other sports at the top level. Fair play to Conor, but Syferus don't confuse hype with prestige!
I'm no begrudger , just trying to contextualise Conor's success.

If you think middle-distance running is much more popular or more profitable than MMA I've news for you. Indeed pretty much every athletics discipline is almost totally subsidised by jingoistic nation states who see promotional value in medals. These are - in the main - not athletes who are buttering their own bread, so to speak. Exceptions such as elite 100m sprinters or people who become national darlings like O'Sulivan or Jessica Ennis and can parlay that popularity in hawking sponsorships and appearances are the exceptions that prove the rule. And then you get to the salient point that middle-distance running is itself just a niche of that not-very-popular grouping of sports.

People badly need to separate actually popular sports from ones being propped up nearly entirely from governmental grants. Just because lads like to run to keep fit doesn't mean many of them want to spend their spare time or spare money watching others do likewise.

heganboy

rickie Hatton's thoughts

QuoteI'm a Conor McGregor fan, what's not to like about him? He's exciting, he's charismatic, he can punch. He's good for sport. But they are two different sports.

I like everything about Conor but I have to be brutally honest, I can't see it. When you see Canelo [Alvarez], he can't lay a punch on Floyd Mayweather, De La Hoya, masterful, masterful boxer, I was 100-mile-an-hour and aggressive as you like and he handled me no problems. And that was my game, in-fighting.

Sorry Conor, I can't even see it being a fight. I really can't. I can only see Mayweather all the way.

And I do hope I'm wrong, by the way, I hope he flattens Mayweather, I honestly do, but I honestly can't see it. I hope that hasn't offended my Irish fans, and Conor for that matter.

I just think he's the best pound-for-pound boxer in the world, one of the greatest of all time, and Conor's not had one boxing match yet.

Come on.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity

tonto1888

Quote from: PAULD123 on June 23, 2017, 08:47:14 AM
Sonja was a great of her sport and you are right to not allow her denigration.

But I just think McGregor has bitten off more than he can chew. In every cross code challenge match I can remember the crosser got pretty much wrecked - rugby to GAA, rugby union to league, snooker to pool.

As for not being able to question his credentials. Off course we can. He has almost none. McGregor has been shown to be a decent Irish Amatuer level at boxing. Even olympic boxers struggle to adjust to the pro style and that's virtually the same sport. Just because McGregor's sport involves striking doesn't make it the same type of thing as boxing. So virtually no boxing credentials. Never beaten won any senior boxing match in his life. Credentials for this - None

He's not even undefeated at UFC. Battered by Diaz and then only edged the man by a single point split decision in the rematch. Credentials here - Questionable!

At UFC has only had three title fights. Credentials here good but very little record of consistency in defending title in a sport that seems to be hard to hang on to a title

Opponents - he has never beaten an opponent that was undefeated in a main card fight and never beaten anyone in those fights that was undefeated within two years otherwise of McGregor's fight. Credentials here - questionable.

So yeah plenty of questions over his credentials the most important being that he had ABSOLUTELY NO PROFESSIONAL BOXING CREDENTIALS AT ALL

Anyway. I have not heard one person speaking in his support that has offered a technical reason why they think he has a chance.

While I agree with a lot of what you are saying I have to pick a few holes.
He is not even undefeated at UFC. UFC is not a sport. He is not undefeated in MMA is maybe what you meant. But who is. Even the GOATs have some losses on their records. Also his MMA credentials are not in question at all. Aldo for starters was undefeated in about 6/7 years and I'm pretty sure he was undefeated in the UFC before he fought Conor.

PAULD123

#154
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 24, 2017, 07:34:13 AM
While I agree with a lot of what you are saying I have to pick a few holes.
He is not even undefeated at UFC. UFC is not a sport. He is not undefeated in MMA is maybe what you meant. But who is. Even the GOATs have some losses on their records. Also his MMA credentials are not in question at all. Aldo for starters was undefeated in about 6/7 years and I'm pretty sure he was undefeated in the UFC before he fought Conor.

as you agree I really shouldn't be pedentic. But can't helpmyself clarifying. If I said "Ronaldo is the highest paid footballer in La liga in a sport that is known for paying huge wages" I think no one would say that I am wrong beuase la Liga isn't a sport and that I should have said football. So similarly I am aware  that UFC is a championship in the MMA sport. I thought it would be implied. Anyway no matter.

Also I said Mcgregor "has never beaten anyone in those fights that was undefeated within two years otherwise of McGregor's fight" Aldo was unbeaten before McGregor but has lost since. Beating  man with a great history may sound fantastic but he goes on to lose then maybe you just got him at the right time. If you are the only person to better a champion within a couple of years period then that really adds gravitas to your victory. Aldo has yet to really come back and prove he justifies his long line of historic victories in curent terms.

However to show I am not completely without humility and can admit when I am wrong. I said "he has never beaten an opponent that was undefeated in a main card fight" and that was wrong. Aldo was undefeated in main card events. I was wrong in that one.

Beating Aldo was impressive but all great fighters who beat a long standing champion are only really considered great if they can do it in a rematch which McGregor refused against Aldo. Is Joshua better than the great Klitschko? He won so that makes him also a great fighter, does it? How can we question his credentials? But we do question his credentials, and that is why there has to be a rematch. And that is why we can question McGregor's credentials even in MMA. His record in title fights is just not long enough. And his only rematch turning a defeat to a single point victory against a guy that has never won a UFC title is hardly convincing stuff. Especially as that guy had lost 10 out his previous 28 fights.

McGregor is a great self promoter. He is great craic. He is a great maximiser out of two title fight victories. But a great champion/fighter? Come on serioulsy - any jury that isn't still out on that one is not looking at the facts.

gallsman

He's clearly not a great "champion" as of the four "world" titles he's win over the last five years, he has defended them a combined total of zero times.


tonto1888

Quote from: PAULD123 on June 24, 2017, 11:58:32 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 24, 2017, 07:34:13 AM
While I agree with a lot of what you are saying I have to pick a few holes.
He is not even undefeated at UFC. UFC is not a sport. He is not undefeated in MMA is maybe what you meant. But who is. Even the GOATs have some losses on their records. Also his MMA credentials are not in question at all. Aldo for starters was undefeated in about 6/7 years and I'm pretty sure he was undefeated in the UFC before he fought Conor.

as you agree I really shouldn't be pedentic. But can't helpmyself clarifying. If I said "Ronaldo is the highest paid footballer in La liga in a sport that is known for paying huge wages" I think no one would say that I am wrong beuase la Liga isn't a sport and that I should have said football. So similarly I am aware  that UFC is a championship in the MMA sport. I thought it would be implied. Anyway no matter.

Also I said Mcgregor "has never beaten anyone in those fights that was undefeated within two years otherwise of McGregor's fight" Aldo was unbeaten before McGregor but has lost since. Beating  man with a great history may sound fantastic but he goes on to lose then maybe you just got him at the right time. If you are the only person to better a champion within a couple of years period then that really adds gravitas to your victory. Aldo has yet to really come back and prove he justifies his long line of historic victories in curent terms.

However to show I am not completely without humility and can admit when I am wrong. I said "he has never beaten an opponent that was undefeated in a main card fight" and that was wrong. Aldo was undefeated in main card events. I was wrong in that one.

Beating Aldo was impressive but all great fighters who beat a long standing champion are only really considered great if they can do it in a rematch which McGregor refused against Aldo. Is Joshua better than the great Klitschko? He won so that makes him also a great fighter, does it? How can we question his credentials? But we do question his credentials, and that is why there has to be a rematch. And that is why we can question McGregor's credentials even in MMA. His record in title fights is just not long enough. And his only rematch turning a defeat to a single point victory against a guy that has never won a UFC title is hardly convincing stuff. Especially as that guy had lost 10 out his previous 28 fights.

McGregor is a great self promoter. He is great craic. He is a great maximiser out of two title fight victories. But a great champion/fighter? Come on serioulsy - any jury that isn't still out on that one is not looking at the facts.

Fair points. I still don't think his MMA credentials can really be questioned though. That said I do wish he would defend his title or defended his other one in a rematch against Aldo.

nrico2006

Never saw the need for a rematch with Aldo. Don't ever remember the clamour for a rematch in boxing or mma when a fighter is knocked out in the first round. Chapter closed.
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

tonto1888

Quote from: nrico2006 on June 25, 2017, 08:26:02 AM
Never saw the need for a rematch with Aldo. Don't ever remember the clamour for a rematch in boxing or mma when a fighter is knocked out in the first round. Chapter closed.

I get what you're saying and has it have been a 3/5 round demolition 50-45 on the cards, or the way he destroyed Alvarez, then I would agree. But with the 13 second knockout there are a few what ifs. Like was it a lucky punch.

Taylor

Love him or loathe him CMG is one of the best the UFC have seen.

Someone said loads of boxers have held multiple weight titles. FFS there is something like 18 different weight divisions and 4 odd belts per division. I could win one myself  ::)

Boxing is on a downward spiral unless they start to get the best fighters against each other on a regular basis

gallsman

Quote from: Taylor on June 25, 2017, 01:10:21 PM
Love him or loathe him CMG is one of the best the UFC have seen.

Someone said loads of boxers have held multiple weight titles. FFS there is something like 18 different weight divisions and 4 odd belts per division. I could win one myself  ::)

Boxing is on a downward spiral unless they start to get the best fighters against each other on a regular basis

People have been saying this for years. There are some absolutely brilliant fights to be made (and are being made) right throughout the divisions.

nrico2006

True Taylor, there is only 3lbs between some weights in boxing. Mayweather is a five weight world champion, but the difference from where he won his first to last is only 14lbs.
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

gallsman

#162
Quote from: nrico2006 on June 25, 2017, 01:31:33 PM
True Taylor, there is only 3lbs between some weights in boxing. Mayweather is a five weight world champion, but the difference from where he won his first to last is only 14lbs.

No it's not, it's 24lbs.

Edit: or 22lbs if you want to get picky that the Canelo fight was at 152.

PAULD123

So Mayweather wins over 24 lbs. Pacquio wins over 42 lbs. Doesn't make McGregor winning over 10 lbs so amazing after all.

TAYLOR how do you make out " CMG is one of the best the UFC have seen. "

He has only ever had 10 UFC fights, lost one, and only ever beat two previous title holders. The second of whom had only held the title for one fight. Do you even know anything about his record or just repeat anything he says about himself?

Syferus