Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

Started by Trevor Hill, January 18, 2010, 12:28:52 AM

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Fear ón Srath Bán

A simple ( ;)) question for you Hardy: for every vote you've cast, have you been in total agreement with everything that that vote connotes, e.g., the whole manifesto?
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

Hardy

I don't understand the relevance of the question. To answer - of course not. But as a democrat and a republican I have accepted the outcome.

Fear ón Srath Bán

Well, just because someone may have voted for the GFA doesn't necessarily mean that they're fully accepting of what it may represent, it (the GFA) just might have been the best of what was on offer at the time.

In the same way that you haven't been in full agreement with everything that your votes have brought about, it's prefectably reasonable that those republicans who voted for the GFA are not totally happy with everything that that enshrines in current, de facto, law. Your (implicit) assertion, however, that a vote in favour for the GFA was an explicit endorsement of the British queen's continued dominion in the north or of partition itself is disingenuous, at best. It's an inescapable side-effect, at this juncture, and no more than that for some.

Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

Hardy

#63
I agree with everything you say, FOSB, except your last two sentences. When you vote in a referendum, you don't get to say "I'm voting YES for this bit, but NO for that bit". It's yes or no and the outcome is taken in the round, whether you have reservations about bits of it or not.

So it's absurd to suggest that the outcome of the GFA referendum can't be taken as endorsement of the constitutional staus quo in the North until such time as the majority wish to change it. To illustrate: if it doesn't mean that, then how is the Irish Government, for instance, to determine what it DOES mean? And what mechanism would they use to arrive at the interpretation you suggest that the decision of the people excludes the recognition of Lizzie as head of state for Northern unionists?

So the referendium, contrary to what you say, is precisely an explicit endorsement of the British queen's continued ... and of partition.

We don't have to like it and we can work to change it, but in the meantime we do have to accept it if we're democrats.

Fear ón Srath Bán

#64
OK Hardy, we're about 50% in agreement, and may have to leave it at that.

To my mind, the GFA as a referendum was deficient at least one option, i.e., British withdrawal, but despite that I'll accept the result of that somewhat restricted referendum. And just because I may have voted to accept the GFA, that doesn't mean that I now ascribe any more legitimacy or validity to the British presence in Ireland than I ever did (zero); no more than I would have ascribed any legitimacy or validity to the British presence in Cork, Meath or elsewhere in the 26 pre-1922.

Regarding a 'Royal' visit to the 26 counties: for any 'republican' to meekly acquiesce to a visit south of the border by a Britsh monarch is a nonsense (IMHO). For two reasons: 1. A monarchy, any monarchy or monarch, is anaethema to anyone who'd call him or herself a republican 2. An Irish republican does not, by definition (i.e., the 1916 Proclamation), accept the legitimacy of the occupation of any part of Ireland by an alien power, least of all she who's considering darkening the Dublin doorstep.


Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

Hardy

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it myself and I think it's funny that people would work themselves into a lather over a little ould one in a funny hat. I think it would be self-demeaning to appear to be cowering before the British monarchy by saying we don't want her coming here. We've had plenty of other monarchs visiting here and the sky didn't fall in. Treat her the same as any other head of state.

Otherwise, where do you stop? Brown can't come here for EU summits? Stop meetings of the British-Irish council? See how ludicrous it starts to get when people start getting caniptions at the sight of an ugly little granny.

trileacman

I agree with Hardy, the refusal to allow liz a wee dander up dame street stinks of token Irish republicanism to me. I won't be there to greet her but I won't lose sleep if she is.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
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lynchbhoy

Quote from: Hardy on January 20, 2010, 10:48:45 AM
Quote from: magickingdom on January 19, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 07:53:10 PM
The people of Ireland have accepted her claim by overwhelming democratic majority, which is how it works in republics, so how would it be a token of republicanism to deny it?

now that is what i call bullshit of the highest order, your a smart guy yet thats as dumb a post on a number of levels that i have read on this board. the people of ireland were asked seperate questions by 2, is that how it works for an overwhelming democratic majority? in republics?

So please explain the situation to dumb old me, as I'm clearly incapable of grasping it.

The people of Ireland, North and South, voted overwhelmingly to accept the GFA, which enshrines partition and the constitutional position in the north, including the position of the British monarch, for as long as the people of the six counties want it to be so. How is this to be interpreted as a rejection of the claim of the British monarch to sovereignty over those who define themselves as British?

Simple question. If you have a formula that turns the GFA vote into a rejection of British rule in the North, I'd be interested to see how it works.

You mightn't like the decision we made and some SF people can even convince themselves that they didn't really mean it and haven't accepted partition and if they keep their fingers crossed behind their backs none of it is really happening. That's grand. Whatever works for you.

I'm only pointing out facts. If you dispute them, I look forward to discussing that with you.
people that I know of voted to try to end fighting etc and saw the GFA and referrendum as a means to expedite the re-unification of Ireland. as the partition wasnt going to be touched and articles 2 and 3 in the constitution meant nothing in reality - we were all happy to vote in the positive fashion - with only the headcases voting no (but they had their own reasons obv).
while some people try to pretend that GFA has meant the partition will forever remain, we all realise that the only things stopping re-unification are the majority vote wishing for this (I'd say north AND south). Then finally the whole question of economics - that includes not only the capacity for our Gov to asimilate the 6 counties back, but the wages of the people, the health service, the dole and social benefits etc all need to be resolved - and this takes a big wad of cash. Some of which will be gained from Brit gov, but we need a prosperous local econemy before this is viable !
apart from that britain would hand it back in the morning !
..........

lynchbhoy

btw  - the poor oul queen has done nothing wrong or bad - shes just a figurehead.
Let her visit, its daft begrudgery to oppose this !
..........

Fear ón Srath Bán

No worries lads, sure I'll organise little union jacks for you all to wave at the supreme symbol of empire, Frau Windsor, as she perambulates up and down O'Connell St, just like the Dubs did with her predecessor Victoria in 1900  :P
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 20, 2010, 01:11:52 PM
To my mind, the GFA as a referendum was deficient at least one option, i.e., British withdrawal, but despite that I'll accept the result of that somewhat restricted referendum. And just because I may have voted to accept the GFA, that doesn't mean that I now ascribe any more legitimacy or validity to the British presence in Ireland than I ever did (zero); no more than I would have ascribed any legitimacy or validity to the British presence in Cork, Meath or elsewhere in the 26 pre-1922.

Regarding a 'Royal' visit to the 26 counties: for any 'republican' to meekly acquiesce to a visit south of the border by a Britsh monarch is a nonsense (IMHO). For two reasons: 1. A monarchy, any monarchy or monarch, is anaethema to anyone who'd call him or herself a republican 2. An Irish republican does not, by definition (i.e., the 1916 Proclamation), accept the legitimacy of the occupation of any part of Ireland by an alien power, least of all she who's considering darkening the Dublin doorstep.
FoSB, you are a smart man in my estimations.  That's why I don't understand how you can say this about the GFA, it was what it was, simply a referendum on the agreement the politicians came to that Good Friday.  Neither British withdrawal nor a united Ireland was on the cards yet the GFA is now being implemented, slowly but surely.  There was pain and there was gain on all sides while the bigger issues were fogged over... and so it will remain for the forseeable future.  I can't see dissidents being a threat to the established and flawed administration at Stormont.  I too would like a united Ireland, I don't know about a 32 county socialist republic though.  I don't think it's achievable and even if it was, how would it survive on the edge of western Europe isolated on its own? 

Republicans need to come to terms with the modern age, new thinking is needed as global Capitalism is the only show in town as far as economic realities go.  That doesn't mean I am a right-winger, I certainly am not, I am just being realistic about political and economic issues.  British withdrawal, I assume you mean soldiers yet this terminology alienates many unionists who see themselves as the British presence in Ireland.  Wasn't it Connolly who said that you could remove the English flag from Dublin Castle but if you left the same economic systems in place that Britain would still control us through the same institutions? :)

And seriously, Hardy is right, a visit from the British Queen to any part of the island should be allowed to go ahead unhindered.  Who cares about her from the nationalist community? 
Not too many nationalists have turned out for her visits in the north.  It would be interesting to see how many people would turn out to see her in the south  ;)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

pintsofguinness

The only thing the GFA referendum demonstrates is that people preferred the GFA to more violence.
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

Nally Stand

#72
Firstly Hardy, while a few somehow agree that she should b allowed to visit (on invitation from FF) you have once again come out with a claim that makes the mind boggle. How would not inviting her be self-demeaning but spending tax payers money (however little) and having people wave little union jacks and bowing before this little old woman not self-demeaning? And Lynchbhoy, if she has done nothing wrong, does this mean her honouring of the individual bloody sunday soldiers was right?
"The island of saints & scholars...and gombeens & fuckin' arselickers" Christy Moore

Fear ón Srath Bán

Flattery will get you nowhere ardmhachaabu  ;)

I was merely demonstrating with that (British withdrawal) remark that the GFA referendum was nothing like exhaustive and therefore no definitive conclusions could be fairly drawn from a vote one way or the other in it. That's not to say that I don't consider a reunited Ireland a plausible, feasible and legitimate aspiration, but I'm aware of the mechanics and realities that currently prevail.

I'm not convinced about 'Global Capitalism' being the only show in town: it hasn't exactly covered itself (or anything else, apart from the very few) in glory over the last few years, and who's to say that there isn't another cataclysmic capitalistic catastrophe around the corner, only this time where there won't be enough money left in the public purses to prevent financial meltdown? What then for 'Global Capitalism'?

And it doesn't matter what cuddly and innocuous words (like 'little', or 'oul', etc.) are bandied about concerning Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, she's still a supreme (hostile) power  ;)
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

magickingdom

#74
Quote from: Hardy on January 20, 2010, 10:48:45 AM
Quote from: magickingdom on January 19, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 19, 2010, 07:53:10 PM
The people of Ireland have accepted her claim by overwhelming democratic majority, which is how it works in republics, so how would it be a token of republicanism to deny it?

now that is what i call bullshit of the highest order, your a smart guy yet thats as dumb a post on a number of levels that i have read on this board. the people of ireland were asked seperate questions by 2, is that how it works for an overwhelming democratic majority? in republics?

So please explain the situation to dumb old me, as I'm clearly incapable of grasping it.

The people of Ireland, North and South, voted overwhelmingly to accept the GFA, which enshrines partition and the constitutional position in the north, including the position of the British monarch, for as long as the people of the six counties want it to be so. How is this to be interpreted as a rejection of the claim of the British monarch to sovereignty over those who define themselves as British?

Simple question. If you have a formula that turns the GFA vote into a rejection of British rule in the North, I'd be interested to see how it works.

You mightn't like the decision we made and some SF people can even convince themselves that they didn't really mean it and haven't accepted partition and if they keep their fingers crossed behind their backs none of it is really happening. That's grand. Whatever works for you.

I'm only pointing out facts. If you dispute them, I look forward to discussing that with you.

re read your original post that i rejected, it never happened. i note in your second post you say the people of ireland north and south, which is of course two different referenda and a complete different outcome to what you said. i voted for the gfa and have never voted sf so not quite sure what you mean by whatever works for you. i would have no bother with the queen coming here either. your only pointing out facts??