The Palestine thread

[AZOffaly]

So it's as simplistic as that AZ and Whitey. People put selective quotes on here referring to a charter and in particular one aspect of it with out any great context and that's what judgements are based on? Have there not been people on here quoting Israeli leaders making similar type statements? When you look at the reality there is indeed one state in danger of  obliteration but it'snot Israel. I'm really not trying to get into a row here but where else do people here get their information to make their judgements on Gaza? It can't all be down to quotes from the charter posted here.

You make it sound as if the charter is not accurate? It's fairly unequivocal in this.

I think (sorry for the word 'think') that the Israeli state is behaving absolutely disgracefully. I believe the leaders should face war crimes tribunals for their actions in Gaza, and elsewhere. I have no doubt in my mind about it.

But when you move 10 years from now, which is what I'm trying to visualise, what is the solution? In my opinion it has to be an internationally policed enforcement of the 1967 UN Mandate. That means Israel is forced to remain within the boundaries set, and is refrained from launching attacks against Palestine or elsewhere.

It also means hardline elements who want to wipe Israel off the face of the map, as a state, are also prevented from so doing.

That is the only thing I can see any sort of stability being brought to this region. A single state solution, either Palestinian or Israeli, would be an unsustainable solution in my view unless the other party were removed from the region entirely.

[dowling]

'Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions The Hamas is a Humane Movement
Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security.'

How does that sit with you AZ? as already referred to by Leo.
Tried to find the bit you put up but can't at the minute.

[AZOffaly]

What does 'Under the shadow of Islam' mean? And this... " It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. "

Given that those 'moves' or 'efforts' can be to implement an Islamic State over all of the land of Israel and Palestine, how does that stack up?

[whitey]

'Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions The Hamas is a Humane Movement
Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security.'

How does that sit with you AZ? as already referred to by Leo.
Tried to find the bit you put up but can't at the minute.

"It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. "

What would constitute standing in its way in order in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts.  Thats a pretty wide moat

[AZOffaly]

This is the full Hamas covenant that I could find online. I've just posted bits I think would have to be removed or negotiated in a two state solution. The rest is there in the link.

By the way, I'm not really comfortable being painted into an 'Israel supporting' position, as I am definitely not that.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

Hamas Charter (1988)

The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

"In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-doers. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped. Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save [where they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from man. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress." Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.
Introduction

Grace to Allah, whose help we seek, whose forgiveness we beseech, whose guidance we implore and on whom we rely. We pray and bid peace upon the Messenger of Allah, his family, his companions, his followers and those who spread his message and followed his tradition; they will last as long as there exist Heaven and Earth. O, people! In the midst of misadventure, from the depth of suffering, from the believing hearts and purified arms; aware of our duty and in response to the decree of Allah, we direct our call, we rally together and join each other. We educate in the path of Allah and we make our firm determination prevail so as to take its proper role in life, to overcome all difficulties and to cross all hurdles. Hence our permanent state of preparedness and our readiness to sacrifice our souls and dearest [possessions] in the path of Allah. Thus, our nucleus has formed which chartered its way in the tempestuous ocean of creeds and hopes, desires and wishes, dangers and difficulties, setbacks and challenges, both internal and external. When the thought matured, the seed grew and the plant took root in the land of reality, detached from temporary emotion and unwelcome haste, the Islamic Resistance Movement erupted in order to play its role in the path of its Lord. In so doing, it joined its hands with those of all Jihad fighters for the purpose of liberating Palestine. The souls of its Jihad fighters will encounter those of all Jihad fighters who have sacrificed their lives in the land of Palestine since it was conquered by the Companion of the Prophet, be Allah's prayer and peace upon him, and until this very day. This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: "Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messenger, lo! Allah is strong, almighty."

Part I - Knowing the Movement

Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas
By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the reinforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, the Movement is a universal one. It is apt to be that due to the clarity of its thinking, the nobility of its purpose and the loftiness of its objectives. It is in this light that the Movement has to be regarded, evaluated and acknowledged. Whoever denigrates its worth, or avoids supporting it, or is so blind as to dismiss its role, is challenging Fate itself. Whoever closes his eyes from seeing the facts, whether intentionally or not, will wake up to find himself overtaken by events, and will find no excuses to justify his position. Priority is reserved to the early comers. Oppressing those who are closest to you, is more of an agony to the soul than the impact of an Indian sword. "And unto thee have we revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto thee. For each we have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed, He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which he has given you [He has made you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto Allah, you will all return. He will then inform you of that wherein you differ." Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter. But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

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Part III - Strategies and Methods



Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? "And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper." Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: "The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow." (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation
When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters. The 'ulama as well as educators and teachers, publicity and media men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of consciousness. There is no escape from introducing fundamental changes in educational curricula in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and missionaries. That invasion had begun overtaking this area following the defeat of the Crusader armies by Salah a-Din el Ayyubi. The Crusaders had understood that they had no way to vanquish the Muslims unless they prepared the grounds for that with an ideological invasion which would confuse the thinking of Muslims, revile their heritage, discredit their ideals, to be followed by a military invasion. That was to be in preparation for the Imperialist invasion, as in fact [General] Allenby acknowledged it upon his entry to Jerusalem: "Now, the Crusades are over." General Gouraud stood on the tomb of Salah a-Din and declared: "We have returned, O Salah-a-Din!" Imperialism has been instrumental in boosting the ideological invasion and deepening its roots, and it is still pursuing this goal. All this had paved the way to the loss of Palestine. We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise. It includes Islamic holy sites such as the Aqsa Mosque, which is inexorably linked to the Holy Mosque as long as the Heaven and earth will exist, to the journey of the Messenger of Allah, be Allah's peace and blessing upon him, to it, and to his ascension from it. "Dwelling one day in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. The place of the whip of one among you in Paradise is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. [God's] worshiper's going and coming in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it." (Told by Bukhari, Muslim Tirmidhi and Ibn Maja) I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim).

Part IV
Article Twenty-Eight
The Zionist invasion is a mischievous one. It does not hesitate to take any road, or to pursue all despicable and repulsive means to fulfill its desires. It relies to a great extent, for its meddling and spying activities, on the clandestine organizations which it has established, such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions, and other spying associations. All those secret organizations, some which are overt, act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions, strive to demolish societies, to destroy values, to wreck answerableness, to totter virtues and to wipe out Islam. It stands behind the diffusion of drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion. The Arab states surrounding Israel are required to open their borders to the Jihad fighters, the sons of the Arab and Islamic peoples, to enable them to play their role and to join their efforts to those of their brothers among the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The other Arab and Islamic states are required, at the very least, to facilitate the movement of the Jihad fighters from and to them. We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967 and stood at the doorstep of the Blessed Aqsa Mosque, they shouted with joy: "Muhammad is dead, he left daughters behind." Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. "Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep."

Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions The Hamas is a Humane Movement
Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions. The past and the present are full of evidence to that effect. "They will not fight you in body safe in fortified villages or from behind wells. Their adversity among themselves is very great. Ye think of them as a whole whereas their hearts are diverse. That is because they are a folk who have no sense." Sura 59 (al-Hashr, the Exile), verse 14 Islam accords his rights to everyone who has rights and averts aggression against the rights of others. The Nazi Zionist practices against our people will not last the lifetime of their invasion, for "states built upon oppression last only one hour, states based upon justice will last until the hour of Resurrection." "Allah forbids you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your houses, that you should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loves the just dealers." Sura 60 (Al-Mumtahana), verse 8.

[macdanger2]

Dowling......direct quotes from the Hamas Charter were posted up here yesterdAy and the pro Hamas folks some how felt the "obliteration" of Israel did not equate to the "obliteration" of the Jews within Israel, even though another direct quote from the charter mandated the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate with Sharia law

Posts which you had no response to whitey.

Your twisting of support for Palestinians into "pro-Hamas" smacks of the same twisting of obliteration of Israel into obliteration of Jews. Subtle enough changes but certainly ones which feed into your agenda

[dowling]

What does 'Under the shadow of Islam' mean? And this... " It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. "

Given that those 'moves' or 'efforts' can be to implement an Islamic State over all of the land of Israel and Palestine, how does that stack up?

I presume this wasn't originally written in English so the use of certain words may not be spot on in the translation.
Even so I think it would be unfair to get hung up on 'shadow' which maybe has  a different connotation to us as in a shadow hanging over something. Would it not be better to broaden your thinking on this in relation to interpretation? And the same for Whitey.
But why dwell on one aspect of the quote? Is there nothing in the rest of it that gives food for thought?

And no AZ I don't think you're pro Israel, in fact you've made it quite clear you're not.

[SLIGONIAN]

http://scgnews.com/times-of-israel-article-when-genocide-is-permissible-just-a-little-too-honest

[Wildweasel74]

Hamas charter, very little point bringing that up, sure the Israelis keep harping back that this is their land gifted by god from roughly round 1400BC and the time of moses. Whats the first commandant - Thou shall not kill, well the Israelis are keeping to the truth of their god charter, NOT!!!

[muppet]

Hamas charter, very little point bringing that up, sure the Israelis keep harping back that this is their land gifted by god from roughly round 1400BC and the time of moses. Whats the first commandant - Thou shall not kill, well the Israelis are keeping to the truth of their god charter, NOT!!!

Does Hamas or Israel have a statute of limitations?

If I can trace my DNA haplogroup back to that part of the world, 4,000 or 5000 years ago, do I get some free land?

[rossiewanderer]

I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

[Itchy]

I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

Better to do nothing equally like you than speak up against something. Like most of your points this one is full of holes. But maybe I'm wrong,  tell me what did you do for the yezidi people in Kurdistan?

[macdanger2]

While yer at it why not fly some more flags in solidarity with Democratic Rep of Congo,Sudan,CAR,Syria etc where similar horrors are unfolding.Or Why not just bring your county flag and enjoy the match?

You're correct in that what's happening in DRC,,Syria and the likes is at least as reprehensible but our govt haven't abstained on any UN motions of censure against these conflicts, therein lies one difference

I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

As I responded to you previously rossiewanderer, the difference lies in the implicit support Israel receives from the West that makes the difference. The belief is that because our govt supports Israel (or is at least passive), public opinion here may be able to persuade our govt to put some sort of pressure on Israel via the EU.

You're 100% correct though, there should be protests about these and other conflicts / oppressions

[charlieTully]

I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

Who left Iraq in the mess it is now? If you want to organise an aid fund I will gladly help.

[muppet]

I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

* We don't see those countries as first world countries. Rightly or wrongly. We are more shocked when a supposedly civilised educated people behave in such a barbaric manner.
* We know a lot more of the history of Israel, especially given what happened to them in WWII.
* The two countries you refer to are not in, or near, Europe.
* The two countries you refer to are not the centres of all of the main religions in our country.
* We have very close ties to the USA and are quite aware of the huge coverage Israel gets in the States.
* We can identify very strongly with being removed your land and have it taken by another nation.

But you still find our interest bizarre. I actually find your doing so truly bizarre.