The Palestine thread

[seafoid]

UNWRA spokesman Chris Gunness on Al Jazeera breaks down as he discusses Gaza (in English after intro in Arabic),

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uoemv7DNsnE&feature=youtu.be

[seafoid]

Dana Erekat @14dana     ·   8h   

There is no drinkable water in #Gaza. Discussions underway to secure water from outside

Poll - 95% of Israeli Jews think the killing is justified
https://twitter.com/Remroum/status/494258985654943744/photo/1

[Mike Sheehy]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

[seafoid]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ? 

[seafoid]

I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.

I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

and, once again, you immediately resort to the insults as well as sweeping statements on an entire religion and yet you claim you are not a bigot ?

You aren't housetrained. All you can do is insult.

Reply #1757 on: Today at 12:00:26 AM
Seafoid does not have a heart and GHD does not have a mind. This is why they cut and paste. They have no alternative.
« Reply #1762 on: Today at 12:27:18 AM »
Do you ever pause to think about these children GHD ? Or are they just numerical pawns in your relentless campaign ?
« Reply #496 on: July 05, 2013, 01:15:56 PM »
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting

You show me who in organised Judaism is standing up to the madness .
Conservative, Reform, or Orthodox
The Zionists are driving Judaism into a hole.

That's two insults in a row....you really need to calm down Seafoid and behave in a rational manner.

Also, when you talk about "modern " Judaism and "organised" Judaism what do you mean exactly ? Is there a date as to when it became modern ? and why is a Jew in, say,  Japan suddenly responsible for what Israel does ?

Zionism is not Judaism Seafoid. Its a sad state of affairs when someone who has not been houstrained  has to explain these basic facts to a self proclaimed expert on the middle east.

Organised Judaism means the leaders of the major Jewish organisations  in the West.
They all support what Israel is doing.
Why? 

[dferg]

Interesting article

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Recording-of-distress-call-to-police-by-kidnapped-teen-released-361169

The comments at the bottom raise a few questions also

[Mike Sheehy]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.

[theskull1]

Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

[Mike Sheehy]

Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.

[Minder]

Is this satire?

Former Prime Minister Tony Blair wins million dollar Israeli leadership prize

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/4643809/Former-Prime-Minister-Tony-Blair-wins-million-dollar-Israeli-leadership-prize.html


The Middle East peace envoy will receive the Dan David Prize for "his exceptional leadership and steadfast determination in helping to engineer agreements and forge lasting solutions to areas in conflict".
The award is presented by the Dan David Foundation, which is based at Tel Aviv University. Previous recipients include former US presidential candidate and environmental campaigner Al Gore and playwright Tom Stoppard.
A spokesman for Mr Blair said the money will be donated to the former Labour leader's charity for religious understanding.

Mr Blair is an envoy of the international Quartet on the Middle East peace process, which comprises the US, European Union, United Nations and Russia.
His entry as a Dan David laureate on the prize's website hails him as "one of the most outstanding statesmen of our era".

It praises his role in the Northern Ireland peace process and his "steadfast determination and morally courageous leadership" over Kosovo, but there is no mention of the controversial decision to support the US-led invasion of Iraq.

The citation states: "Early in his prime ministership, he came to two beliefs that guide him to today: first, that it is a mistake for the world to wait for America to solve all of the tough questions, and second, that there are some things a state may do within its borders that justify intervention even if the actions do not directly threaten another nation's interests."
The award will be presented in a ceremony on May 17 at Tel Aviv University.

[SLIGONIAN]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/30/russell-brand-sean-hannity_n_5632882.html?ir=UK+Entertainment

[seafoid]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.

International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

The problem is American

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYGyJ2LjYVQ
AIPAC directly lobbies 100/100 US Senators

It's very efficient
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1U3UpXwUV4
http://ontd-political.livejournal.com/11075373.html

"If you just keep your mouth shut, it's hard to imagine progressives abandoning you," one progressive pro-Israel activist said. "There isn't a lot of upside and potentially a lot of downside of a lawmaker getting on the wrong side of a community that is riled up, especially in the run-up to an election...intensity beats numbers, and the people who support Israel are very intense."

That would be "their Jewishness" BTW . Very intense and you don't want them to call you an anti-Semite.



All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

[seafoid]

Is this satire?

Former Prime Minister Tony Blair wins million dollar Israeli leadership prize

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/4643809/Former-Prime-Minister-Tony-Blair-wins-million-dollar-Israeli-leadership-prize.html


The Middle East peace envoy will receive the Dan David Prize for "his exceptional leadership and steadfast determination in helping to engineer agreements and forge lasting solutions to areas in conflict".
The award is presented by the Dan David Foundation, which is based at Tel Aviv University. Previous recipients include former US presidential candidate and environmental campaigner Al Gore and playwright Tom Stoppard.
A spokesman for Mr Blair said the money will be donated to the former Labour leader's charity for religious understanding.

Mr Blair is an envoy of the international Quartet on the Middle East peace process, which comprises the US, European Union, United Nations and Russia.
His entry as a Dan David laureate on the prize's website hails him as "one of the most outstanding statesmen of our era".

It praises his role in the Northern Ireland peace process and his "steadfast determination and morally courageous leadership" over Kosovo, but there is no mention of the controversial decision to support the US-led invasion of Iraq.

The citation states: "Early in his prime ministership, he came to two beliefs that guide him to today: first, that it is a mistake for the world to wait for America to solve all of the tough questions, and second, that there are some things a state may do within its borders that justify intervention even if the actions do not directly threaten another nation's interests."
The award will be presented in a ceremony on May 17 at Tel Aviv University.

Blair is one of Israel's people. Another is Kagame, the Rwandan butcher.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/31/tony-blair-rwanda-paul-kagame
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-SAgejsFrA

[theskull1]

Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.

MS how significant a role has land grabbing and settler encroachment had on Israel being attacked? Is there going to be no acknowledgement that any aggression toward them is primarily down to their aggression in this regard? They have always had the boot on the throat of these people and are incrementally crushing the windpipe. And yet are up in arms when theres a reaction to such oppression. I'm convinced we are looking at what is part of a long term strategy playing out  by Israeli hawks under the mask of self defense. Palestinian hatred for Israel is playing into Israels hands and well the hawks know it. With the death toll factor being at 1 jew to 30 Arabs, the hawks IMO will be happy with their progress.

As I seen one Israeli protesting against his leaders on twitter
'If I was a Palestinian I'd want to fight Israel'

[seafoid]

Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.

MS how significant a role has land grabbing and settler encroachment had on Israel being attacked? Is there going to be no acknowledgement that any aggression toward them is primarily down to their aggression in this regard? They have always had the boot on the throat of these people and are incrementally crushing the windpipe. And yet are up in arms when theres a reaction to such oppression. I'm convinced we are looking at what is part of a long term strategy playing out  by Israeli hawks under the mask of self defense. Palestinian hatred for Israel is playing into Israels hands and well the hawks know it. With the death toll factor being at 1 jew to 30 Arabs, the hawks IMO will be happy with their progress.

As I seen one Israeli protesting against his leaders on twitter
'If I was a Palestinian I'd want to fight Israel'

Israel has not been under consistent attack over the last 70 years. It fights wars of choice to test out weapons which it sells on to international buyers. Gaza is a test lab for weapons.

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1405472137/241/10273241_600x400.jpg