The Palestine thread

[seafoid]

Aid organisation Christian Aid have issued a furious statement at the devastation in Gaza.

William Bell, Christian Aid's Policy and Advocacy Officer for Israel and the Palestinians, called the scale of the suffering "unprecedented" and blamed "international political impotence and indifference" for the situation in Gaza. An edited version is below, the full version can be read on the Christian Aid website.

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/July-2014/christian-aid-statement-on-gaza-impunity-must-end.aspx

This latest outbreak of violence is not about Gaza. The people who are now dying in their hundreds are paying the price for a lethal combination of international political impotence and indifference to decades of Palestinian dispossession and displacement. It appears from its actions that Israel disregards the most basic rights of Palestinians.

Those who have died deserve us to be honest about what is happening. The world cannot claim to be unaware, as it has been paying for the consequences of consistent political failure, weak Palestinian leadership and Israel's actions since the first Palestinian refugees were forced from their homes in 1947. Billions have been poured into Palestinian 'development' aid, while Israeli actions have fuelled 'de-development' and undermined a viable Palestinian economy by occupying more land for illegal settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank and restricting access and movement for people and goods.

Israel controls and impacts on almost every aspect of Palestinian life. This includes forcing them through humiliating checkpoints; allowing settler violence to go unpunished; imposing a seven year blockade on Gaza; arresting and holding thousands without charge and demolishing homes and livelihoods.

Anyone bearing witness to these facts on the ground will no doubt conclude that any possibility of a two-state solution has all but failed. Despite the international community's claim that it is the only solution, it has not acted to stop Israel usurping Palestinian land and natural resources and has allowed Palestinians to become the highest per capita recipients of donor aid in the world.

[...]

Christian Aid believes that in order for there to be security for both peoples, the climate of impunity must come to an end and each individual and collective action be accounted for through a framework guided by international law and justice. This is the essence of peace: building new relationships founded on equity. If non-violent forms of justice, such as respect for international law, are routinely ignored, then the international community will continue to fund an unsustainable status quo.

[haranguerer]

more valuable time wasted

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/stormont-meeting-launches-dup-friends-of-israel-group-1-6114099

Its a lot more sinister than a waste of time.

[Puckoon]

Aid organisation Christian Aid have issued a furious statement at the devastation in Gaza.

William Bell, Christian Aid's Policy and Advocacy Officer for Israel and the Palestinians, called the scale of the suffering "unprecedented" and blamed "international political impotence and indifference" for the situation in Gaza. An edited version is below, the full version can be read on the Christian Aid website.

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/July-2014/christian-aid-statement-on-gaza-impunity-must-end.aspx

This latest outbreak of violence is not about Gaza. The people who are now dying in their hundreds are paying the price for a lethal combination of international political impotence and indifference to decades of Palestinian dispossession and displacement. It appears from its actions that Israel disregards the most basic rights of Palestinians.

Those who have died deserve us to be honest about what is happening. The world cannot claim to be unaware, as it has been paying for the consequences of consistent political failure, weak Palestinian leadership and Israel's actions since the first Palestinian refugees were forced from their homes in 1947. Billions have been poured into Palestinian 'development' aid, while Israeli actions have fuelled 'de-development' and undermined a viable Palestinian economy by occupying more land for illegal settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank and restricting access and movement for people and goods.

Israel controls and impacts on almost every aspect of Palestinian life. This includes forcing them through humiliating checkpoints; allowing settler violence to go unpunished; imposing a seven year blockade on Gaza; arresting and holding thousands without charge and demolishing homes and livelihoods.

Anyone bearing witness to these facts on the ground will no doubt conclude that any possibility of a two-state solution has all but failed. Despite the international community's claim that it is the only solution, it has not acted to stop Israel usurping Palestinian land and natural resources and has allowed Palestinians to become the highest per capita recipients of donor aid in the world.

[...]

Christian Aid believes that in order for there to be security for both peoples, the climate of impunity must come to an end and each individual and collective action be accounted for through a framework guided by international law and justice. This is the essence of peace: building new relationships founded on equity. If non-violent forms of justice, such as respect for international law, are routinely ignored, then the international community will continue to fund an unsustainable status quo.

You should have posted the entire article. It is a wholly accurate piece, well worth reading from start to finish.

[seafoid]

Behind the lying eyes of Mark Regev

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBTtXKKT_8#t=57

[Mike Sheehy]

I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.

[Mike Sheehy]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

[seafoid]

I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.

I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

[seafoid]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ? 

[Sidney]

Apparently Israel was warned 17 times that the school it bombed today was housing refugees, but sure it went ahead and bombed it anyway.

But hey, why believe me on that? Believe that notorious pro-Palestinian propaganda rag, the Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2710397/15-Palestinians-killed-90-injured-Israeli-tank-shell-attack-UN-school-used-refugee-shelter.html

[Mike Sheehy]

I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.

I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

and, once again, you immediately resort to the insults as well as sweeping statements on an entire religion and yet you claim you are not a bigot ?

[seafoid]

I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.

I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

and, once again, you immediately resort to the insults as well as sweeping statements on an entire religion and yet you claim you are not a bigot ?

You aren't housetrained. All you can do is insult.

Reply #1757 on: Today at 12:00:26 AM
Seafoid does not have a heart and GHD does not have a mind. This is why they cut and paste. They have no alternative.
« Reply #1762 on: Today at 12:27:18 AM »
Do you ever pause to think about these children GHD ? Or are they just numerical pawns in your relentless campaign ?
« Reply #496 on: July 05, 2013, 01:15:56 PM »
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting

You show me who in organised Judaism is standing up to the madness .
Conservative, Reform, or Orthodox
The Zionists are driving Judaism into a hole.

[whitey]

not in any way shape or form condoning what Israel is doing, but Hamas are not the saints they are being portrayed as here. This is a very dangerous stream of Islam

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/07/30/Hamas-CoFounders-Son-Israel-Fighting-on-Behalf-of-the-Free-World

[muppet]

Regarding the bombing of UN schools, before we blame others, remember our UN delegates shamefully and disgracefully abstained on a motion to investigate Israel for possible war crimes.

Then consider that Obama & Kerry have been humiliated by Netanyahu to the extent that they are running away to fight a phony war with Putin, anything is preferential to being publicly scolded by their delinquent dependent. They actually need the world to stand up to Netanyahu for them, but the EU hasn't the guts. Germany is in a moral quandary which Israeli extremists exploit ruthlessly. Read that 'any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic' dogma and weep.

And yet Hamas still fires the rockets.

The irrisistable butchers meet the immovable imbeciles.

[Mike Sheehy]

I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.

I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

and, once again, you immediately resort to the insults as well as sweeping statements on an entire religion and yet you claim you are not a bigot ?

You aren't housetrained. All you can do is insult.

Reply #1757 on: Today at 12:00:26 AM
Seafoid does not have a heart and GHD does not have a mind. This is why they cut and paste. They have no alternative.
« Reply #1762 on: Today at 12:27:18 AM »
Do you ever pause to think about these children GHD ? Or are they just numerical pawns in your relentless campaign ?
« Reply #496 on: July 05, 2013, 01:15:56 PM »
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting

You show me who in organised Judaism is standing up to the madness .
Conservative, Reform, or Orthodox
The Zionists are driving Judaism into a hole.

That's two insults in a row....you really need to calm down Seafoid and behave in a rational manner.

Also, when you talk about "modern " Judaism and "organised" Judaism what do you mean exactly ? Is there a date as to when it became modern ? and why is a Jew in, say,  Japan suddenly responsible for what Israel does ?

Zionism is not Judaism Seafoid. Its a sad state of affairs when someone who has not been houstrained  has to explain these basic facts to a self proclaimed expert on the middle east.

[whitey]

if any of you have the time....read this book....or at minimum read the reviews....definitely gave me some food for thought

http://www.amazon.com/Goliath-Life-Loathing-Greater-Israel/dp/1568586345


As i said earlier in this thread i know some Israelis, and even some people who served in the IDF. Do i believe EVERYTHING they tell me about the conflict-absolutely not!!!!

On the other hand, I get the feeling that some posters on here take every word that comes from the Palestinian side as gospel.

Theres two sides to this and the truth is somewhere in between.....at this point probably closer to the Palestinian version of events imho