The Palestine thread

[HiMucker]

While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

Don't you think your view point is a bit skewed then?  No surprise that people in Iraq and Afghanistan try to kill American soldiers.  They weren't exactly handing out sweets over there

[johnneycool]

Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Again, for the umpteenth time, what do you want them to do. Give specifics, so that a proper debate can happen.

Lift the embargo on Gaza and other Palestinian territories and allow Palestine to get back to some form of normality where the likes of Hamas wouldn't thrive.

The Palestinians have been backed into a corner where they had to do something, you just can't keep poking the dog and then be surprised when it tries to bite back, so you then hammer it to an inch from its life, yet blame the dog for trying to bite you!!

Well, the question was what you want the US, France, Uk etc to do but , fair enough, we can discuss this aspect as well.

"Lift the embargo"...agree with you 100%
"allow Palestine get back to normality".......agree with you 100%
"where the likes of Hamas wouldn't thrive".....I think Hamas will "thrive" as long as Israel exists in any form...that is the problem isn't it ? They are not interested in real compromise. 

There would have to be something given in return though...something that would demonstrate that there was serious intent. Wouldn't a reasonable starting point be that Hamas remove from their charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of jews ? I think if you are going to negotiate from a position of good faith with someone then the bare minimum should be that you don't say your main goal is to kill them ?  Once that is given then concrete , real steps can be taken after that to show they were serious about peace.

The Palestinians have been backed into a corner where they had to do something, you just can't keep poking the dog and then be surprised when it tries to bite back, so you then hammer it to an inch from its life, yet blame the dog for trying to bite you!!

Agree with you 100%. The way I characterize it is that if I was a Palestinian I'd want to kill every Israeli I see. No argument there.  However, if I was an Israeli  I would see this as a fight to the death. You may think that is paranoia but , given the history, it is justifiable paranoia.

The key issue from the Israeli perspective is security. You have to address that if you are serious about wanting peace in Israel/Palestine.
If you think the security issue is just an excuse then, fine, lets call their bluff......Is there something that can be done to take away that "excuse" ?

Well, the US, UK and France can tell the Israelis that their 'aid' and unwavering support at the UN will be greatly reduced unless they lift the embargo and retreat to the 1946 borders, that would be a good start to bring them back in line with international law.

That would be a good starting point and I'm sure if Hamas refused it as well because the wanted the nation of Israel destroyed, they wouldn't be long in power in Palestine, just my opinion.

[haranguerer]

While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

[whitey]

While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

Don't you think your view point is a bit skewed then?  No surprise that people in Iraq and Afghanistan try to kill American soldiers.  They weren't exactly handing out sweets over there

Agreed....but neither were the 9/11 hijackers

I was flat out against the Iraq war but felt we were justified in going into Afghanistan


There is no easy solution. Look at what's happening in Syria-estimated 150000 killed in Muslim on Muslim violence-crazy stuff. The Israelis look at that and feel absolutely justified in their use of force

[whitey]

While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Gotta get to work-apologies for posting a link and not continuing the dialogue

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7

[seafoid]

2 quick comments

(1) the argument about the lob sidedness of the casualty count is comets BS. Hamas has fired  over 2000 rockets into Israel. 90% of them have been neutralized by the ingenious missile defense system the Israelis developed. Without that the Israeli count would be much higher.

(2) Not sure if it's true, but an Israeli spokesman was getting grilled on MSNBC this morning. He claimed that they issued an evacuation order for a specific neighborhood, but Hamas then came out and ordered everyone to stay put in order to maximize casualties

The FAA Advisory is basically telling Israel that they have lost control of the situation.
There is no going back to the status quo.
Israel's cheap occupation is over.

[seafoid]

Will you be flying el al to tel aviv in solidarity?
Rock and troll.

The airport closure will no doubt affect the Israeli company that you work for.

No more expense paid trips with sneaky visits to the S&M clubs.

You really are nuts.

Here

Spin this for us


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/gaza-crisis-plo-supports-hamas-conditions-for-ceasefire-live-updates

The Israeli Broadcasting Authority has refused to air adverts by Israeli human rights group B'Tselem (see video below), listing the names and ages of some of the children killed in Gaza, according to Elizabeth Tsurkov, project director at the Hotline for Refugees and Migrants Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcTbMOabFhg

[haranguerer]

While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Gotta get to work-apologies for posting a link and not continuing the dialogue

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7

Let me get this straight - this guy went round bombsites, asked the people he found there if they'd like a ceasefire, and was surprised when they said yes?

That article is such a load of bo**ocks its hard to fathom how anyone published it with a straight face.

And it still doesnt answer my question, it actually accentuates how much of a lie your original quote was.

If the people don't support Hamas, then why would they stand under Israeli bombs for them?

Threat of force, right? If this was the case, you can bet your bottom dollar there'd be any amount of evidence for it, from palestinians who had fled, or relatives of someone Hamas killed for not doing their bidding, and I cant imagine that THAT evidence would not be all over the news, can you??

[screenexile]

It's not something I've really looked into in the past but the current violence has led me to look at a lot more commentary and follow this thread quite a bit.

To be honest I can't quite get my head around it but basically it seems you are one side or the other:

1. Hamas are evil and want to kill all Jews so we must destroy them

2. Israel are evil they have taken our land and continue to kill our people

In reality the truth is probably somewhere in the middle from what I can see although I am leading towards the Gazan side given the latest Israeli offensive which is killing civilians women and Children.

My main problem with it is that they are claiming they are bombing the places where Hamas are shooting their rockets but with them being able to neutralise them quite easily it doesn't give justification for bombing Hospitals schools etc.

There needs to be talks and ultimately a number of peacekeepers sent in to control the situation for an indefinite period so that the situation can remain under control. Unfortunately there is no oil over there and the US would be loathe to send troops over there where surely a number of them would get killed. It's a horrible situation with no real solution but hopefully something can be done to stop the bloodshed!

Also I remembered your man on Matt Cooper who commentates a lot on American politics and I checked up his views on it... I haven't heard the Last Word in a while but surely Matt is getting stuck into him for his extremely blinkered view of what is going on!!

http://www.kansas.com/2014/07/23/3563646/cal-thomas-end-all-us-aid-to-the.html

[whitey]

While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Gotta get to work-apologies for posting a link and not continuing the dialogue

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7

Let me get this straight - this guy went round bombsites, asked the people he found there if they'd like a ceasefire, and was surprised when they said yes?

That article is such a load of bo**ocks its hard to fathom how anyone published it with a straight face.

And it still doesnt answer my question, it actually accentuates how much of a lie your original quote was.

If the people don't support Hamas, then why would they stand under Israeli bombs for them?

Threat of force, right? If this was the case, you can bet your bottom dollar there'd be any amount of evidence for it, from palestinians who had fled, or relatives of someone Hamas killed for not doing their bidding, and I cant imagine that THAT evidence would not be all over the news, can you??

Again this is one side of the story


http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/israel-warns-civilians-to-stay-out-of-harms-way-hamas-sends-them-back-in/

[seafoid]

While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Gotta get to work-apologies for posting a link and not continuing the dialogue

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7

Let me get this straight - this guy went round bombsites, asked the people he found there if they'd like a ceasefire, and was surprised when they said yes?

That article is such a load of bo**ocks its hard to fathom how anyone published it with a straight face.

And it still doesnt answer my question, it actually accentuates how much of a lie your original quote was.

If the people don't support Hamas, then why would they stand under Israeli bombs for them?

Threat of force, right? If this was the case, you can bet your bottom dollar there'd be any amount of evidence for it, from palestinians who had fled, or relatives of someone Hamas killed for not doing their bidding, and I cant imagine that THAT evidence would not be all over the news, can you??

Again this is one side of the story


http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/israel-warns-civilians-to-stay-out-of-harms-way-hamas-sends-them-back-in/

whitey

You are ignoring the whole context. Israel is occupying Gaza, has been running a brutal siege for the last 7 years, won't grant the Palestinians independence, kills 7 Gazans aweek on average , wants to make the strip uninhabitable in a decade and is backed up by the US so acts with impunity.

What would you do if you were in Gaza? Suck it up ?

I think if Turkey or anyone else started lobbing missiles without provocation at Israel then Israel would be entitled to complain and to cry self defence BTW. But Israel is the occupying power. 



 

[muppet]

Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

[johnneycool]

Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

After he had a good go at it all the same.

[muppet]

Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

After he had a good go at it all the same.

Yip, he first held a gun in 1961, was arrested in 1962 and jailed for life in 1964.

Quite the activist.

[J OGorman]

has prob been put up before, but shows graphically the land grabbing over the years