The Palestine thread

[give her dixie]

If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

[give her dixie]

"They stole my land, burnt my olive trees, destroyed my house, took my water, imprisoned my father, killed my mother, starved us all, humiliated us all. But I am to blame : I shot a rocket back. So they stole more of my land, burnt my olive trees, destroyed my house, took my water, bombed my country..."

[muppet]

If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

We know what Israel's leadership is. History is littered with regimes that revel in slaughter.

However if I fire a pointless rocket, knowing that my own will die as a result, I am no hero and no freedom fighter. And I am certainly not standing up for what is right, quite the opposite. I am exactly the same as my oppressor.

[seafoid]

If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

We know what Israel's leadership is. History is littered with regimes that revel in slaughter.

However if I fire a pointless rocket, knowing that my own will die as a result, I am no hero and no freedom fighter. And I am certainly not standing up for what is right, quite the opposite. I am exactly the same as my oppressor.

Marek Edelman would probably have disagreed.
It's very hard to come up with simple answers fighting regimes that don't give a shit about rights. 
Part of the problem in the occupied territories is that there is no law for Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.

[muppet]

If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

We know what Israel's leadership is. History is littered with regimes that revel in slaughter.

However if I fire a pointless rocket, knowing that my own will die as a result, I am no hero and no freedom fighter. And I am certainly not standing up for what is right, quite the opposite. I am exactly the same as my oppressor.

Marek Edelman would probably have disagreed.
It's very hard to come up with simple answers fighting regimes that don't give a shit about rights. 
Part of the problem in the occupied territories is that there is no law for Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?

[seafoid]

If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

We know what Israel's leadership is. History is littered with regimes that revel in slaughter.

However if I fire a pointless rocket, knowing that my own will die as a result, I am no hero and no freedom fighter. And I am certainly not standing up for what is right, quite the opposite. I am exactly the same as my oppressor.

Marek Edelman would probably have disagreed.
It's very hard to come up with simple answers fighting regimes that don't give a shit about rights. 
Part of the problem in the occupied territories is that there is no law for Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. , other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?

I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

"It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians"

Agreed. But nothing has. What would you say to them? Do what you are told and you'll get.. what ?
Like that Donegal fella said , they will be remembered by their people.
Maybe they are a suicide cult. Would you blame them ? 

Edelman was very impressive too. It's a pity Judaism didn't learn from his insight.

[muppet]

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?

I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

[Mike Sheehy]

Stop the weasel words Seafoid and just say what you really think.....

seafoid October 29, 2010 at 12:27 pm    
link to countercurrents.org
They will do anything to suppress dissent. Israel will have to be destroyed.

[give her dixie]

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?

I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

[Mike Sheehy]

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have

What a ridiculous statement. You really are an idiot of the highest order. 

[muppet]

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?

I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

I doubt it.

You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies.

Being in the right does not justify every response to those who are in the wrong.

[give her dixie]

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?

I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

I doubt it.

You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies.

Being in the right does not justify every response to those who are in the wrong.

Again I will ask. What should they do? No rockets are been fired in the West Bank and look what is happening there?

60+ Palestinians murdered in the past 10 months

[give her dixie]

Another big victory for BDS tonight....

In 'turning-point' vote, Presbyterians divest from occupation-linked corporations

Nearly 30 years after it divested from corporations complicit in South African apartheid, the Presbyterian Church voted 310-303 to divest from three corporations involved with the Israeli military and its occupation.  The vote means that $21 million of Presbyterian stock in Caterpillar, Hewlett Packard and Motorola Solutions will be divested.

The extraordinarily close vote (51% to 49% of delegates) came after an intense hours-long debate that featured emotional pleas on all sides.

"It hurts me to know that we invest in the tearing apart of Palestinian lives," said Emma Warman, a youth delegate, before the vote took place.  The advisory voters, including the youth delegates, overwhelmingly recommended a positive vote for divestment.

This close vote came two years after another close vote that went in the opposite direction.  In 2012, the Presbyterian Church rejected divestment by just two votes.

"After a decade of corporate engagement with Caterpillar, Hewlett-Packard, and Motorola Solutions, these companies have failed to modify their behavior and continue to profit from Israeli human rights abuses and non-peaceful pursuits," said Rev. Dr. Walt Davis in a statement released by the Israel/Palestine Mission Network, a Presbyterian group that supported divestment.  "This is a historic vote and the culmination of a long and deliberate internal process within the church."

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/presbyterians-divestment-afternoon.html

[seafoid]

http://forward.com/articles/200455/rick-jacobs-asks-presbyterians-to-meet-with-netany/?

"The document, which is being sold through your online church store, is a vicious attack on Judaism, the Jewish people and the State of Israel,"

That's the line of defence of Israel. If you support Palestinian rights you hate Jews.
It's going to be a mess. It has the potential to be worse than the fall of apartheid in South Africa because Judaism is in the mix.
And the more isolated Israel becomes, the more extreme its policies.

The Presbyterians decided to divest anyway. 
I bet it will end up in a Jewish civil war between young Jews who see the moral disconnect and their elders.

[give her dixie]

Israel orders dismantling of camera that captured murder of Palestinian boys

On 15 May, Israeli security forces fatally shot Nadim Nuwara, 17, and Muhammad Abu al-Thahir, 16, at a demonstration near the Ofer military prison in the occupied West Bank village of Beitunia. Four days after the killings, on 19 May, Defence for Children International-Palestine (DCI-Palestine) released footage from Zayed's security cameras that showed the boys walking slowly in a calm scene when they were shot.

Now the Israeli military has ordered Fakher Zayed, the man whose security cameras captured the closed circuit TV footage that shows Israeli security forces shooting the two teenage boys, to dismantle his cameras within 24 hours or face legal proceedings/ (The footage and an earlier interview with Zayed can be seen in the DCI-Palestine video above.)

The Israeli military had already confiscated Zayed's recording equipment on 22 May, and on 13 June seized all other recording equipment in the area — such as that owned by other shopkeepers. They now demand that Zayed remove his security camera as well, from which a live stream can be watched but not saved for subsequent viewing or examination

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/israel-orders-dismantling-camera-captured-murder-palestinian-boys