The Palestine thread

[seafoid]

Where did I say that a knife wasn't a lethal weapon? You avoided the question I asked I notice. Do you mind if I ask you another question - how do you come to know so much about Israel/Palestinian relations. To you go there?

Plain and simple, no, they have not targetted civilians. They have killed civilians while targetting terrorists, and that is a complete and utter tragedy and a shame, but I don't believe they have deliberately targetted civilians. It does nothing to advance their aims or desires. Why would they? I believe they need to be more sure of their intelligence before ordering a strike, but you can never be 100% sure when you fire a missile. Israel is hampered by the fact that palestinian terrorists embed themselves in civilian buildings as a means of defense and are well known for using women and children as  human shields.

Bollocks. They kill an awful lot of civilians, Beaver. And they have the finest tech in the world. And they are all accidents are they?
I'm sorry. That is just ridiculous.

An awful lot of Palestinian kids are shot in the head rather the legs, you know. The best thing would be an international inquiry to get to the truth. Would you support one?   

[Ball DeBeaver]

Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.

So did Hamas have the right under the new rules of war to execute Shalit?

NO. Shalit was a captured soldier, protected under the Geneva convention.

What about torture? Does Israel have the right to torture prisoners?

As much right as Hamas and Fatah have. Guess who uses torture more on palestinians. I'll give you a clue, it isn't Israel.

Does Hizballah have the right under the new rules of war to starve Jewish prisoners to death?

No one has the right to starve any prisoners to death, but if a prisoner goes on hunger strike, then he can bloody well starve.

Why do you hold Israel to a higher standard of human rights than the palestinians. If you were as concerned about palestinian rights as you are about being anti Israeli then you would be more concerned about getting rid of Hamas and Fatah who you know fine rightly are bleeding them dry.


I've a question for you. Do you believe the state of Israel has the right to stay where they are, within the pre 67 borders?

I do. Pay compensation to the Palestinians and fire away.
Those people have been there for a while now and they have nowhere else to go. The kids there now- it is not their fault their grandparents ethnically cleansed the natives in 1948.
But they have to stop blackguarding the Palestinians.

The problem with that is that Hamas and Fatah have stated many times that palestine is from the Jordan to the sea. All of Israel as well as PA. They won't tolerate any jews in their palestine.

And the settlers can f**k off.

Correct. I've never been in favour of the settlements, but it doesn't give palestinians the right to murder them in their beds.

Israel has signed international treaties on human rights and it's rich and calls itself a democracy and it's OECD and Peres told the president of Cameroon that "a Jews and apartheid do not go together" so it's right to hold it to its commitments.

Yet palestinians aren't expected to honour their commitments to peace.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Where did I say that a knife wasn't a lethal weapon? You avoided the question I asked I notice. Do you mind if I ask you another question - how do you come to know so much about Israel/Palestinian relations. To you go there?

Plain and simple, no, they have not targetted civilians. They have killed civilians while targetting terrorists, and that is a complete and utter tragedy and a shame, but I don't believe they have deliberately targetted civilians. It does nothing to advance their aims or desires. Why would they? I believe they need to be more sure of their intelligence before ordering a strike, but you can never be 100% sure when you fire a missile. Israel is hampered by the fact that palestinian terrorists embed themselves in civilian buildings as a means of defense and are well known for using women and children as  human shields.

Bollocks. They kill an awful lot of civilians, Beaver. And they have the finest tech in the world. And they are all accidents are they?
I'm sorry. That is just ridiculous.

An awful lot of Palestinian kids are shot in the head rather the legs, you know. The best thing would be an international inquiry to get to the truth. Would you support one?

The finest tech in the world is only as good as it's weakest link, which is intelligence. If palestinian informers are giving wrong or out of date information, then mistakes are going to happen unfortunately.
An awful lot of palestinians throw an awful lot of rocks and petrol bombs. They are trying to kill the soldiers and jews they are attacking, and the soldiers and jews have every right to defend themselves. If someone was to throw a petrol bomb at me while I was armed, I'm going to blow the cnut away. What would you do, disarm them? Ask them politely to stop. If you'd ever fired a semi automatic weapon you'd know that trying to hit a target in the legs is a hell of a shot. Shooting a moving target isn't like in cowboy films.

[seafoid]

Beaver

"An awful lot of palestinians throw an awful lot of rocks and petrol bombs. They are trying to kill the soldiers and jews they are attacking, and the soldiers and jews have every right to defend themselves. If someone was to throw a petrol bomb at me while I was armed, I'm going to blow the cnut away. What would you do, disarm them? Ask them politely to stop. If you'd ever fired a semi automatic weapon you'd know that trying to hit a target in the legs is a hell of a shot. Shooting a moving target isn't like in cowboy films."

Do you think Israeli violence and the deliberate targeting of civilians is an effective policy? 
Do you think it makes sense for Israel to build more homes for settlers in the West Bank ?
Where do you think Israel is going with all of this? 

[Ball DeBeaver]

A civilian is someone who takes no part in attacks. Anyone throwing rocks or a petrol bomb is trying to severely injure/kill someone and has given up the right to be described as civilian.

You already know what I think about settlements.

Do you condone the palestinian tactic of sending children out to riot, in the full knowledge that they are likely to be shot?

[Ball DeBeaver]

A photograph of two dead children, who were killed in an Israeli missile strike near Gaza City, won the top World Press Photo prize on Friday for Swedish photographer Paul Hansen of newspaper Dagens Nyheter.

The photograph shows a group of men bearing the bodies of two-year-old Suhaib Hijazi and her brother Muhammad, 3, as they were taken to the mosque for a burial ceremony. Their parents were killed in the same strike.

"The strength of the picture lies in the way it contrasts the anger and sorrow of the adults with the innocence of the children," Mayu Mohanna, a member of the jury, said of the photograph which was named World Press Photo of the Year 2012.

Ammar Awad of Reuters received an honorable mention in the General News single category for his photograph "Israeli Border Police Pepper spray Palestinian Protester".

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=565531

A very striking photo don't you think. But what's wrong with it? Surely it isn't photoshopped...........................


Exposed: Award Winning Gaza Image was Photoshopped
May 14, 2013 14:22by Simon Plosker


It turns out that the 2013 World Press Photo of the Year — the largest and most prestigious press photography award — was, in actual fact, a fake. The World Press Photo association hasn't yet stripped the photographer, Paul Hansen, of the title, but presumably it's just a matter of time. Rather than discussing the politics of photo manipulation, though — is it faked, or is it merely enhanced? — we're going to look at how Hansen managed to trick a panel of experienced judges with his shooping skillz, and how a seasoned computer scientist spotted the fraudulent forgery from a mile off.

The photo, dubbed Gaza Burial, was purportedly captured on November 20, 2012 by Paul Hansen. Hansen was in Gaza City when Israeli forces retaliated in response to rocket fire from Palestinian rocket fire. The photo shows two of the casualties of the Israeli attack, carried to their funeral by their uncles. Now, the event itself isn't a fake — there are lots of other photos online that show the children being carried through the streets of Gaza — but the photo itself is almost certainly a composite of three different photos, with various regions spliced together from each of the images, and then further manipulation to illuminate the mourners' faces.

The remainder of the article reveals exactly how this was done.

There is no question that the funeral itself took place. But how many times have we seen the manipulation of images from the Middle East conflict?

In our Shattered Lens study of photo bias, we took a look at how the use of cropping and angles were used to create a dramatic perception of a funeral.

In general the study identified distortions of images that mostly fell into the following categories:
1.
Deliberate Staging

2.
Use of wide-angle lenses and photographer positions to make photos appear more dramatic than the reality

3.
Photographers choosing positions that affect the events they are shooting

4.
Editorializing in photo captions.


In the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict, manipulating photos to create a dramatic perception goes far beyond a simple touch up of a nature scene or the removal of red eye from a family portrait. Images are, arguably, more powerful than any headline or text in an article and leave a deep and lasting impression.

When it comes to reporting of Israel, those impressions are important in how the world views the country.

The World Press Photo Association should immediately revoke Paul Hansen's award and demonstrate that unethical and unprofessional photography is unacceptable.


http://honestreporting.com/exposed-award-winning-gaza-image-was-photoshopped/

I was just posting last night about palestinian propoganda, and lo and behold..........................

Virtually every news item that comes out of Gaza is manipulated to show Israel in the worst light possible. Palestinians are renowned for their acting skills and will use anything they can to exaggerate the suffering they endure.


PALLYWOOD

[seafoid]

A civilian is someone who takes no part in attacks.
You already know what I think about settlements.

Do you condone the palestinian tactic of sending children out to riot, in the full knowledge that they are likely to be shot?

Anyone throwing rocks or a petrol bomb is trying to severely injure/kill someone and has given up the right to be described as civilian.

Says who?
I don't believe shoot to kill is effective as a policy.  I didn't work in the North.
I think Palestinians are entitled to demonstrate for their rights. Even peaceful protestors are shot at. Very poor form ,really, from the Israelis. But what would you expect, I suppose.

[seafoid]

A photograph of two dead children, who were killed in an Israeli missile strike near Gaza City, won the top World Press Photo prize on Friday for Swedish photographer Paul Hansen of newspaper Dagens Nyheter.

The photograph shows a group of men bearing the bodies of two-year-old Suhaib Hijazi and her brother Muhammad, 3, as they were taken to the mosque for a burial ceremony. Their parents were killed in the same strike.

"The strength of the picture lies in the way it contrasts the anger and sorrow of the adults with the innocence of the children," Mayu Mohanna, a member of the jury, said of the photograph which was named World Press Photo of the Year 2012.

Ammar Awad of Reuters received an honorable mention in the General News single category for his photograph "Israeli Border Police Pepper spray Palestinian Protester".

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=565531

A very striking photo don't you think. But what's wrong with it? Surely it isn't photoshopped...........................


Exposed: Award Winning Gaza Image was Photoshopped
May 14, 2013 14:22by Simon Plosker


It turns out that the 2013 World Press Photo of the Year — the largest and most prestigious press photography award — was, in actual fact, a fake. The World Press Photo association hasn't yet stripped the photographer, Paul Hansen, of the title, but presumably it's just a matter of time. Rather than discussing the politics of photo manipulation, though — is it faked, or is it merely enhanced? — we're going to look at how Hansen managed to trick a panel of experienced judges with his shooping skillz, and how a seasoned computer scientist spotted the fraudulent forgery from a mile off.

The photo, dubbed Gaza Burial, was purportedly captured on November 20, 2012 by Paul Hansen. Hansen was in Gaza City when Israeli forces retaliated in response to rocket fire from Palestinian rocket fire. The photo shows two of the casualties of the Israeli attack, carried to their funeral by their uncles. Now, the event itself isn't a fake — there are lots of other photos online that show the children being carried through the streets of Gaza — but the photo itself is almost certainly a composite of three different photos, with various regions spliced together from each of the images, and then further manipulation to illuminate the mourners' faces.

The remainder of the article reveals exactly how this was done.

There is no question that the funeral itself took place. But how many times have we seen the manipulation of images from the Middle East conflict?

In our Shattered Lens study of photo bias, we took a look at how the use of cropping and angles were used to create a dramatic perception of a funeral.

In general the study identified distortions of images that mostly fell into the following categories:
1.
Deliberate Staging

2.
Use of wide-angle lenses and photographer positions to make photos appear more dramatic than the reality

3.
Photographers choosing positions that affect the events they are shooting

4.
Editorializing in photo captions.


In the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict, manipulating photos to create a dramatic perception goes far beyond a simple touch up of a nature scene or the removal of red eye from a family portrait. Images are, arguably, more powerful than any headline or text in an article and leave a deep and lasting impression.

When it comes to reporting of Israel, those impressions are important in how the world views the country.

The World Press Photo Association should immediately revoke Paul Hansen's award and demonstrate that unethical and unprofessional photography is unacceptable.


http://honestreporting.com/exposed-award-winning-gaza-image-was-photoshopped/

I was just posting last night about palestinian propoganda, and lo and behold..........................

Virtually every news item that comes out of Gaza is manipulated to show Israel in the worst light possible. Palestinians are renowned for their acting skills and will use anything they can to exaggerate the suffering they endure.


PALLYWOOD

Were the children not dead?
Did Israel resurrect them? 

What sort of picture of this funeral could have portrayed Israel in a positive light, Beaver? 

[Ball DeBeaver]

Obviously you missed the line in the article which stated

There is no question that the funeral itself took place. But how many times have we seen the manipulation of images from the Middle East conflict?

[Ball DeBeaver]

I was going to wait for final confirmation about this one, but seeing as we're on the subject..........

If you have any information to the contrary, I'd love to see it. It's funny how there were no photos of the funeral or the body, as is usual for this type of story.




Al-Dura Wasn't Even Hurt: Truth Set to be Revealed
May 13, 2013 9:54by Simon Plosker

In what could be a significant turn of events the Jerusalem Post reports:

Not only was 12-year-old Gazan Muhammad al-Dura not killed by IDF fire in 2000 – he was not even hurt.

That was the preliminary finding of a special committee formed several years ago by Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon and headed by Brig.- Gen. (res.) Yossi Kuperwasser, the former head of the Research and Analysis Division of the IDF Military Intelligence Directorate, and the current director-general of the Strategic Affairs Ministry.

...

In the meantime, 13 years have passed, during which various and sundry conspiracy theories have been suggested, including claims that the boy was never even injured.

A few days ago, MK Nachman Shai met with Ya'alon to give him a copy of his new book, Media War Reaching for Hearts and Minds , which deals with the role of media in current military conflicts, including the Dura affair. Ya'alon then surprised Shai by saying that an investigation carried out by Israel shows that Dura was never hurt.

This theory has been circulating on the Internet for a few years already, but this was the first time that an Israeli defense minister was stating so publicly.

Today, Dura should be about 25-years-old, alive and kicking somewhere (unless he was killed later in a separate incident).

Kuperwasser confirmed the committee's conclusion that that Dura had not been hurt at all and that the video clip, which was filmed by France 2 TV and aired around the world, had indeed been staged. This means that the France 2 TV channel report was erroneous, perhaps even knowingly.

Kuperwasser added that the full results of the investigation would be ready in the near future, and that most of the work had already been completed.
To recall, Al-Dura was the "poster boy" of the so-called Second Intifada and the libel of Israeli responsibility for his death and the iconic imagery of the incident have had a major impact on subsequent events and Israel's image in the media.

We believe that we must never give up trying to find out the truth, even 13 years after the incident, and the same applies to all of those times when Israel has been falsely accused in the media.
We look forward to seeing the full report in the near future and to see if the mainstream media and France 2 in particular, will finally acknowledge their part in propagating a libel.

[seafoid]

I was going to wait for final confirmation about this one, but seeing as we're on the subject..........

If you have any information to the contrary, I'd love to see it. It's funny how there were no photos of the funeral or the body, as is usual for this type of story.




Al-Dura Wasn't Even Hurt: Truth Set to be Revealed
May 13, 2013 9:54by Simon Plosker

In what could be a significant turn of events the Jerusalem Post reports:

Not only was 12-year-old Gazan Muhammad al-Dura not killed by IDF fire in 2000 – he was not even hurt.

That was the preliminary finding of a special committee formed several years ago by Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon and headed by Brig.- Gen. (res.) Yossi Kuperwasser, the former head of the Research and Analysis Division of the IDF Military Intelligence Directorate, and the current director-general of the Strategic Affairs Ministry.

...

In the meantime, 13 years have passed, during which various and sundry conspiracy theories have been suggested, including claims that the boy was never even injured.

A few days ago, MK Nachman Shai met with Ya'alon to give him a copy of his new book, Media War Reaching for Hearts and Minds , which deals with the role of media in current military conflicts, including the Dura affair. Ya'alon then surprised Shai by saying that an investigation carried out by Israel shows that Dura was never hurt.

This theory has been circulating on the Internet for a few years already, but this was the first time that an Israeli defense minister was stating so publicly.

Today, Dura should be about 25-years-old, alive and kicking somewhere (unless he was killed later in a separate incident).

Kuperwasser confirmed the committee's conclusion that that Dura had not been hurt at all and that the video clip, which was filmed by France 2 TV and aired around the world, had indeed been staged. This means that the France 2 TV channel report was erroneous, perhaps even knowingly.

Kuperwasser added that the full results of the investigation would be ready in the near future, and that most of the work had already been completed.
To recall, Al-Dura was the "poster boy" of the so-called Second Intifada and the libel of Israeli responsibility for his death and the iconic imagery of the incident have had a major impact on subsequent events and Israel's image in the media.


We look forward to seeing the full report in the near future and to see if the mainstream media and France 2 in particular, will finally acknowledge their part in propagating a libel.

You need a cup of tea and a nice sit down, Beaver.
Your critical faculties are malfunctioning.

Ad Durra was only one of 1519 Palestinian kids murdered by the Jewish state since 2000.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html

[dec]

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.

[seafoid]

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.

The whole Israeli argument is nuts. They moan about photoshopping while the whole point of the photos was the kids they killed.

[Ball DeBeaver]

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.

Which is why I was reluctant to post this story up yesterday when it broke. Unlike some on here, I like to know that any links I put up are true.

[Ball DeBeaver]

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.

The whole Israeli argument is nuts. They moan about photoshopping while the whole point of the photos was the kids they killed.

No, the whole point of the photos is the way they were portrayed, not the subject matter.