The Palestine thread

[seafoid]

Believe it or not Seafoid, but I don't think Samaria and Judea belongs to the Israeli state either. I do however understand their reasoning behind controlling the security of the area.

If Israel hadn't got such a heavy military presence in the area how long do you think it would be before there were massive attacks against Israel, from both "West Bank" and Gaza? Once Israel feels secure, then the landscape will begin to change, not before.

There will only be a reduction in the number of Israelis there when the security situation changes and a peace deal is agreed with the palestinians. The problem there is that Fatah and Hamas etc are telling their people that not only does palestine consist of Gaza, Judea and Samaria, but also includes all of what is now Israel, so no matter what peace deal is done, the palestinians won't be happy until all jews are driven into the sea.
   
Even if Israel were to announce their withdrawl tomorrow, it would take a minimum of 5 years or more to repatriate all the settlers who wish to return to Israel. Then there would be those who will want to stay in their homes. How will they be able to live securely in a hostile state?

The settlements are forever, Beaver. That is the whole point. Those cats are never going home.
Zionism says all of the land is Jewish. Israel spent over $100bn on the project since 1967 . It was not for the purposes of negotiation.
It's a mess. 

iThere will only be a reduction in the number of Israelis there when the security situation changes and a peace deal is agreed with the palestinians.   is horseshit. Israel won't talk. Never ever offered anything meaningful. That land is theirs and the Palestinians don't belong in their own country is what the Israelis believe.

[Ball DeBeaver]

They said the same about the Gaza settlements, but Israel withdrew from every single one of them, even forcibly evicting those that wanted to remain. They won't make the same mistake they made in Gaza, by withdrawing too soon before there was real peace.
Israel will withdraw when the conditions are right. They have no other option.


But you're right, it is a mess.

[seafoid]

They said the same about the Gaza settlements, but Israel withdrew from every single one of them, even forcibly evicting those that wanted to remain. They won't make the same mistake they made in Gaza, by withdrawing too soon before there was real peace.
Israel will withdraw when the conditions are right. They have no other option.


But you're right, it is a mess.

No, the Gaza settlers were shafted to secure the West Bank.
Always the plan. East Jerusalem will never be given back. It's not reversible.
Which is why Israel is fucked .

[seafoid]

Are you for real? The Hamas poster boy's post was all about how the man was partially responsible for Hawking's decision, so it is entirely appropriate that I counter that with my own about the warped thinking of Noam (stop giggling at the back) Chomsky. When someone is used as a character witness, expect their own views to be brought into question.

I see you don't dispute the facts of my argument.



Noam Chomsky 

Here's that idiot Chomsky talking shite about Iraq. Like he knew anything about what was going on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1bheLSLBmY

[Ball DeBeaver]

So because he can see the blatantly obvious about Iraq, he's a genius when it comes to Israel?

FFS Seafoid, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Syferus]

Lads, just have sex and get it over with. This foreplay is driving us all daft.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Lads, just have sex and get it over with. This foreplay is driving us all daft.

I think Seafoid wants to do dirty things to me. 

[seafoid]

http://gush-shalom.org.toibillboard.info/GuWeekly.htm


Gush ad 10.5.13







Of all the dangers
Facing Israel,
The one
That frightens
The government
Most is
The danger of
Peace.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Again, soundbites and bullshit.






Please, please post an original thought of your own, or even an article. Go on, it's not that hard. I'll do one to get you started..................

[Ball DeBeaver]

See, it's not hard at all............... Here's one from your favourite site.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167955



'They Beat Me like I was a Drum'

Rabbi Yosef Kovalkin describes the brutal mob attack on him and Aharon Zlatkin last week.


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By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 5/12/2013, 10:07 PM


Rabbi Yosef Yitzhak Kovalkin of Neria, in the Binyamin region, was brutally beaten May 4 at the Doar Junction near his community together with another Jew, Aharon Zlatkin, 53.

Zlatkin is still in the hospital and was initially under anesthesia and artificial respiration. He is now doing a little better and has begun moving his arms and legs and even mumbling some words.

Kovalkin told Arutz Sheva that he and Zlatkin took part in a protest against the security situation after a week that was full of attacks on Jewish motorists in the region, including throwing of rocks and fire bombs, rolling boulders on cars and more.

"Most of the people stood at the junction at the Doar Junction," he recalled. "Some may have entered the village, I don't remember. We stood at the entrance to the village to prevent them from leaving. It's unacceptable that we will be hit by rocks and they will move about freely. I stood in the middle of the road and Aharon stood at the side.

"An older man came up to me with about six or seven youths holding clubs. They had murder in their eyes. He shouted at me, 'Get out of here, get the hell out.' I answered him with confidence – 'You get out of here. You have no business here.' They left me alone. I turned around and then I heard blows, and I saw them hitting Aharon with clubs, one after the other.

"I moved in immediately to protect him. Suddenly I felt that one of them hit me hard in the back with a club, and felled me to the floor. From that moment it was like they were beating drums – clubs all over my body. They wanted to kill a Jew, no matter how."

There were three soldiers on the scene throughout the attack, he said, but the IDF's "delusional" orders for opening fire made it impossible for them to do anything, Rabbi Kovalkin said.

He emerged from the beating with over 30 stitches in his head. His fingers swelled up because he used his hands to shield his head, but luckily no bones were broken.

[seafoid]

Again, soundbites and bullshit.
Please, please post an original thought of your own, or even an article. Go on, it's not that hard. I'll do one to get you started..................

What is the issue with links ?
Most of your stuff is from settler websites and presented in big letters in colour .

[seafoid]

See, it's not hard at all............... Here's one from your favourite site.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167955
Rabbi Yosef Kovalkin describes the brutal mob attack on him and Aharon Zlatkin last week.
y Gil Ronen
First Publish: 5/12/2013, 10:07 PM


Rabbi Yosef Yitzhak Kovalkin of Neria, in the Binyamin region, was brutally beaten May 4 at the Doar Junction near his community together with another Jew, Aharon Zlatkin, 53.

Zlatkin is still in the hospital and was initially under anesthesia and artificial respiration. He is now doing a little better and has begun moving his arms and legs and even mumbling some words.

Kovalkin told Arutz Sheva that he and Zlatkin took part in a protest against the security situation after a week that was full of attacks on Jewish motorists in the region, including throwing of rocks and fire bombs, rolling boulders on cars and more.

"Most of the people stood at the junction at the Doar Junction," he recalled. "Some may have entered the village, I don't remember. We stood at the entrance to the village to prevent them from leaving. It's unacceptable that we will be hit by rocks and they will move about freely. I stood in the middle of the road and Aharon stood at the side.

"An older man came up to me with about six or seven youths holding clubs. They had murder in their eyes. He shouted at me, 'Get out of here, get the hell out.' I answered him with confidence – 'You get out of here. You have no business here.' They left me alone. I turned around and then I heard blows, and I saw them hitting Aharon with clubs, one after the other.

"I moved in immediately to protect him. Suddenly I felt that one of them hit me hard in the back with a club, and felled me to the floor. From that moment it was like they were beating drums – clubs all over my body. They wanted to kill a Jew, no matter how."

There were three soldiers on the scene throughout the attack, he said, but the IDF's "delusional" orders for opening fire made it impossible for them to do anything, Rabbi Kovalkin said.

He emerged from the beating with over 30 stitches in his head. His fingers swelled up because he used his hands to shield his head, but luckily no bones were broken.

"It's unacceptable that we will be hit by rocks and they will move about freely"

Do you agree with this, Beaver? 

[AZOffaly]

Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?

Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Totally.



As he is clearly talking about the attack he suffered and the on-going rock attacks on jewish owned cars by palestinians, then it is perfectly right of him to take this attitude.
Why should it be OK for palestinians to attack elderly rabbis and jewish cars, then cry when the jews hit back?

[Ball DeBeaver]

Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?

Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.

The U.N.'s Human Rights Council special rapporteur for the Palestinians Richard Falk has come under a lot of pressure lately to resign due to his continued anti Israeli stance, and is viewed by Israel especially as overtly pro palestinian. Plaestinians are the only refugees in history to be given special status by the UN, in that their descendants (even children and grandchildren born long after they arrived in their host nation) are given refugee status by UN, while no other victim of any conflict worldwide gets the same treatment. Why?

Sorry to tell you, but a completely neutral view point is almost impossible to find. You don't believe the Israeli version, but I can assure you, the palestinian version of what happens there will always be to blame Israel. The Israeli version may initially blame the palestinians, but as the fog lifts and if it comes out that Israel was to blame, then the truth usually comes out in the Israeli press. The palestinian press will never go against the party line in favour of the Israeli narrative because there is no such thing as a "free press" in palestine. There have been many documented attacks on and murders of journalists who dare to print what they see as the truth in palestinian areas.


This is an old article (2004), but it sums up perfectly why there is only one side of the argument that gets out of palestinian controlled areas.


Telling the Truth about the Palestinians

A briefing by Khaled Abu Toameh
April 27, 2004


Khaled Abu Toameh, an Israeli Arab, is the West Bank and Gaza correspondent for the Jerusalem Post and U.S. News and World Report. He previously served as a senior writer for the Jerusalem Report, and a correspondent for Al-Fajr. He has produced several documentaries on the Palestinians for the BBC and many other networks, including ones that exposed the connection between Arafat and payments to the armed wing of Fatah and the financial corruption within the Palestinian Authority. Mr. Abu Toameh received his BA in English Literature from the Hebrew University and currently lives in Jerusalem with his wife and three children. He addressed the Middle East Forum in Philadelphia on April 27, 2004.

As an Arab journalist working among Palestinians, I am often asked if I feel threatened while I work. I am indeed frequently placed in life-threatening situations, yet the threats I experience do not come from the Israeli occupation, but from Yasir Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA). At least 12 Palestinian journalists have been attacked by masked men in the past four months in what appears to be an organized campaign to intimidate the media. Only days ago, a photographer working for Agence France-Presse had his arms broken by a masked man in Ramallah. Agence France-Presse did not do anything about this attack, but a great outcry is raised when Israeli soldiers allegedly harass journalists in the territories.

The Lack of Independence in the Palestinian Media

Twenty years ago, while studying at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, I worked for the PLO's newspaper Al Fajr (The Dawn). Al Fajr was more than a paper; it was a PLO institution. At the paper we basically received and carried out orders from Arafat's office in Tunisia. Although I eventually became an editor there, I did not mention my position at Al Fajr on my resume for years because I did not consider the work that went on there to be real journalism. Now, after being censured for my outspokenly critical views of the Palestinian media, I consider my time at Al Fajr testament to my knowledge of the lack of journalistic freedom at the PLO newspaper.

I continue to witness what is happening to the Palestinian media under Arafat. Many of my Palestinian colleagues actually envy me for writing for an Israeli paper. Working for the PLO, I was not able to write a word of my own free will. Yet in two years at the Jerusalem Post my editors have never told me what to write. I can function as a journalist at the Jerusalem Post in a way that many Palestinians have tried to function under Arafat, but have failed.

Arafat's Attack on Free Speech

When Arafat returned to the West Bank and Gaza from his exile, his security forces ignored pursuing terrorists and instead arrested independent journalists not loyal enough to the PLO. Over 38 journalists were forced out of their jobs or the country. This was not given much attention by the foreign media because at the time Arafat was allowed to do whatever he wanted in the name of Oslo. Although they did not cover the story heavily, I was not alone in pointing out to foreign journalists that the first thing Arafat did when PLO returned to the territories was to restrict freedom of speech.

Arafat has complete control over the Palestinian media to this day. Almost all Palestinian newspapers are financed by the PLO, and serve as a mouthpiece for the organization, which is basically Arafat's office. Some days the headlines for the three major Palestinians papers are identical. The lack of freedom at these papers is a big disappointment for Palestinian journalists; they were freer to write what they wanted under Israeli occupation before the PLO returned from exile.

Arafat's suppression of free speech is another example of an Arab leader not allowing the people to speak out. In this way Arafat is no different from other Arab dictators, who see the role of the media as subservient to – and a mouthpiece for – their regimes. In the Arab world, if you are an independent journalist or you criticize the regime, then you are branded a traitor – and that kind of suppression of dissent is how dictatorial Arab regimes survive.

Palestinian Media and their Impact on Foreign Media

The lack of free speech in the territories should not be dismissed as an internal Palestinian problem. When Palestinian journalists are intimidated, it affects foreign journalists, who depend on Palestinians to be their guides and translators in the territories. When foreign journalists interview Palestinians, many translators often mistranslate or even reprimand Palestinian interviewees critical of the Palestinian Authority, and foreign journalists' ability to accurately gather facts is thus hampered.

Another problem with the Palestinian media is the sad fact that some Palestinian journalists see themselves as foot soldiers serving the revolution. These so-called journalists are often politically affiliated with one group or another. Under the PA, you basically cannot be a journalist if you are not a member of Fatah or the security forces. All the credible independent journalists have been fired by the three major Palestinian newspapers, and there are many professional Palestinian journalists, but they have been forced to seek work with the Arab and foreign media.

There are some in the foreign media who knowingly hire consultants or journalists who are really political activists, and rely heavily on them for their reporting. These "consultants" include former security prisoners and political activists who are hired by major media organizations, including American ones, who are often aware of these so-called journalists' problematic backgrounds. Despite the bias of their consultants, which inevitably affects their reporting, the media organizations keep quiet about the consultants' backgrounds. It is hard to say if this acquiescence by foreign media organizations is due to intimidation or to the need to maintain a good relationship with the PA, but it seriously affects the ability of journalists in the region to report the facts on the ground to the world.

Conclusion

People in the rest of the world therefore do not get an accurate picture of what happens in the region, and there are two parties to blame for this journalistic failure. Partly to blame are foreign journalists who allow themselves to be misled by some of their Palestinian consultants. The bulk of the blame, however, rests with the PA, whose tyrannical approach and control of the media creates an atmosphere of intimidation and fear among Palestinian journalists.

http://www.meforum.org/604/telling-the-truth-about-the-palestinians




Good luck trying to get your head round it.