The Palestine thread

[seafoid]

http://www.haaretz.com/general/the-country-that-wouldn-t-grow-up-1.186721

"But democrats don't fence into Bantustans helpless people whose land they have conquered, and free men don't ignore international law and steal other men's homes. The contradictions of Israeli self-presentation - "we are very strong/we are very vulnerable"; "we are in control of our fate/we are the victims"; "we are a normal state/we demand special treatment" - are not new: they have been part of the country's peculiar identity almost from the outset. "

[Ball DeBeaver]

How the Jewish State uses collaborators to frame political opponents.

"In a brief interrogation at the Etzion facility, he was asked about Hamas. In the past he had always been accused of being a member of the Popular Front, but this time it was Hamas. It was the holy month of Ramadan, but Ahmar took out a cigarette and asked his interrogator for a light. "Deny it or not, we have all the information," the interrogator told the heretic who smoked during Ramadan and was accused of recruiting people for Hamas. That was the first and almost the only interrogation he underwent in the 20 months that followed, with the exception of another brief conversation with "Nimrod" across the fence at the Ofer detention facility. Ahmar says that "Nimrod" suggested that he make a confession. "Admit that you belong to an organization, admit to something, something small, and we'll charge you with that and finish this. You know that we can create information about you; we have collaborators who will say anything." His detention was extended by eight days and then by another four, and he was certain that he was about to go home. Then came the decision: six months of administrative detention.  "I had the feeling that they had begun to run amok and to shatter our lives," he recalls. "I thought an error had been made and the appeals judge would release me immediately. Then the judge endorsed [the six-month detention] and I thought about another appeal; there would be a good session and the judge would annul it. But the appeal was rejected again. I thought to myself: Six months will pass, things will calm down. Then I got another six months. And then another six months and another six months. Six months four times, until finally the judge said that two months had to be dropped because there was no new material. For 11 years they have suspected me and suspected me, but haven't found anything."
Just because enough proof can't be found, doesn't mean he's innocent.


Secondly , the use of collaborators or touts to buy land on behalf of Jews which them magically becomes Israeli land :

"The Elad association in particular has acquired a reputation for being careful to make their purchases strictly legal,
If fraud or or forgery is involved, then it isn't "strictly legal." 
but the way to these purchases is often paved with pressures and threats that border on the criminal; the forging of documents or obtaining them through fraud; the cynical use of Shin Bet security service collaborators as straw men and the shameful exploitation of the chaotic legal status of lands in Silwan, where the State of Israel has never regularized the legal listing of property in the Lands Registry. In this free-for-all of a war over land in the territories, it is no wonder that a mill of rumors, fears and speculations of various degrees of imaginativeness is flourishing."
You said it.

That sort of shit never happened in Northern Ireland.

Extensive use of collaborators isn't honourable. And it doesn't befit the Jewish state.

So, because Israelis use middle men, they are collaborators? The use of front men to buy property is totally legal and is used all over the world, even in Ireland. I know of at least one farmer in Fermanagh who had to buy land this way because the person who owned it wouldn't sell it to him because he's catholic.

[seafoid]

How the Jewish State uses collaborators to frame political opponents.

"In a brief interrogation at the Etzion facility, he was asked about Hamas. In the past he had always been accused of being a member of the Popular Front, but this time it was Hamas. It was the holy month of Ramadan, but Ahmar took out a cigarette and asked his interrogator for a light. "Deny it or not, we have all the information," the interrogator told the heretic who smoked during Ramadan and was accused of recruiting people for Hamas. That was the first and almost the only interrogation he underwent in the 20 months that followed, with the exception of another brief conversation with "Nimrod" across the fence at the Ofer detention facility. Ahmar says that "Nimrod" suggested that he make a confession. "Admit that you belong to an organization, admit to something, something small, and we'll charge you with that and finish this. You know that we can create information about you; we have collaborators who will say anything." His detention was extended by eight days and then by another four, and he was certain that he was about to go home. Then came the decision: six months of administrative detention.  "I had the feeling that they had begun to run amok and to shatter our lives," he recalls. "I thought an error had been made and the appeals judge would release me immediately. Then the judge endorsed [the six-month detention] and I thought about another appeal; there would be a good session and the judge would annul it. But the appeal was rejected again. I thought to myself: Six months will pass, things will calm down. Then I got another six months. And then another six months and another six months. Six months four times, until finally the judge said that two months had to be dropped because there was no new material. For 11 years they have suspected me and suspected me, but haven't found anything."
Just because enough proof can't be found, doesn't mean he's innocent.


Secondly , the use of collaborators or touts to buy land on behalf of Jews which them magically becomes Israeli land :

"The Elad association in particular has acquired a reputation for being careful to make their purchases strictly legal,
If fraud or or forgery is involved, then it isn't "strictly legal." 
but the way to these purchases is often paved with pressures and threats that border on the criminal; the forging of documents or obtaining them through fraud; the cynical use of Shin Bet security service collaborators as straw men and the shameful exploitation of the chaotic legal status of lands in Silwan, where the State of Israel has never regularized the legal listing of property in the Lands Registry. In this free-for-all of a war over land in the territories, it is no wonder that a mill of rumors, fears and speculations of various degrees of imaginativeness is flourishing."
You said it.

That sort of shit never happened in Northern Ireland.

Extensive use of collaborators isn't honourable. And it doesn't befit the Jewish state.

So, because Israelis use middle men, they are collaborators? The use of front men to buy property is totally legal and is used all over the world, even in Ireland. I know of at least one farmer in Fermanagh who had to buy land this way because the person who owned it wouldn't sell it to him because he's catholic.

The system dehumanises Palestinians. That is the goal. Palestinians are scum in Israeli law. Collaborators are key to this. You put palestinians into a kafkaesque process where there is no law and you break him or her and then they do whatever you want. It's blackmail.

Comparing it to Fermanagh is pointless.   Palestinian sells land to what he thinks is another palestinian and next thing it turns out the land was sold to Jews. The people occupying the land are evicted and settlers move in. anyone wanting to get back to the property is shot.  does this happen in Irvinestown as well?   

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.

Are Taigs allowed to own land in Enniskillen ?

[Ball DeBeaver]

The system dehumanises Palestinians. That is the goal. Palestinians are scum in Israeli law. Collaborators are key to this. You put palestinians into a kafkaesque process where there is no law and you break him or her and then they do whatever you want. It's blackmail.

Comparing it to Fermanagh is pointless.   Palestinian sells land to what he thinks is another palestinian and next thing it turns out the land was sold to Jews. The people occupying the land are evicted and settlers move in. anyone wanting to get back to the property is shot.  does this happen in Irvinestown as well?   

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.

Are Taigs allowed to own land in Enniskillen ?

We can use analogies from Mayo and Limerick, yet not Fermanagh.  Do you hate nordies as much as you hate the jews?

If a piece of land is up for sale, it's up for sale. Should someone be allowed to stop selling homes or land to Poles/blacks/catholics/protestants just because they don't want them living there? Is it right that we need to use middle men in our own country? The person refusing to sell the land to someone because of their own prejudice is the one at fault, not the one buying.


As for this piece of utter garbage.........

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.

What a load of balls. Hundreds of thousands of arabs own land and property in Israel. There is no bar on anyone buying or selling private property in Israel. The only land that is not for sale to anyone, is state land, or land held in trust.

On the other hand................

PA Court: Death Penalty For Selling Land to Jews
Follow Virtual Jerusalem on  and

Date Posted: 2010-09-20 15:30:25
 


Selling land to Israel or Israelis is a capital offense, a Palestinian Authority court in the Jerusalem area ruled Thursday. The verdict overturned a lower court's ruling that such a sale was a "minor crime."


According to the Ma'an news agency based in Bethlehem, Judge Ta'et At-Twil ruled that the act of selling or attempting to sell land to a foreign country was a criminal offense which could warrant the death penalty.

A Prosecution statement said that the court issued the ruling as a consolidation of a previous legal principle, as per instructions it received from PA Attorney General Ahmad Al-Mughni. The Prosecution added that the ruling was made in order to "protect the Palestinian national project to establish an independent Palestinian state."In April 2009, a three-member PA military court sentenced a Hevron Arab to death by hanging for the crime of selling land to Jews in Judea and Samaria, Ma'an reported at the time.

Dozens of PA Arabs have been executed without trial in the past for collaborating with Israel by selling land to Jews, but the court's ruling last April was the first time the PA officially handed down a verdict of treason for the deed. Seven Arabs were executed in 1996 for "collaborating," and the PA later admitted that it was responsible for the murders. More executions took place in the following years, and one Arab, Mohammed Abu al-Hawa, was tortured and murdered in 2006 for allegedly selling an apartment building in Jerusalem to Jews.

While Jews are forbidden from buying land in the PA, PA leaders refuse to accept Israel's status as the state of the Jews. Israel does not forbid the buying of land by Arabs, and there have been persistent reports of oil-rich sheikhs who have been buying land in Israel for nationalistic reasons in the past few years.

http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=866

In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel's War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.

In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.

Meanwhile, in 1996, the Palestinian Authority (PA) Mufti, Ikremah Sabri, issued a fatwa (religious decree), banning the sale of Arab and Muslim property to Jews. Anyone who violated the order was to be killed. At least seven land dealers were killed that year.

On May 5, 1997, Palestinian Authority Justice Minister Freih Abu Middein announced that the death penalty would be imposed on anyone convicted of ceding "one inch" to Israel. Later that month, two Arab land dealers were killed. A year later, another Palestinian suspected of selling land to Jews was murdered. The PA has also arrested suspected land dealers for violating the Jordanian law (in force in the West Bank), which prohibits the sale of land to foreigners.  An Islamic judge renewed the fatwa barring Palestinians from selling property to Jews in 2008 and, as recently as June 2010, a Palestinian was imprisoned for 10 years on charges of selling land to Israel.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFrights.html#6

Please tell me I'm wrong.

[seafoid]

The system dehumanises Palestinians. That is the goal. Palestinians are scum in Israeli law. Collaborators are key to this. You put palestinians into a kafkaesque process where there is no law and you break him or her and then they do whatever you want. It's blackmail.

Comparing it to Fermanagh is pointless.   Palestinian sells land to what he thinks is another palestinian and next thing it turns out the land was sold to Jews. The people occupying the land are evicted and settlers move in. anyone wanting to get back to the property is shot.  does this happen in Irvinestown as well?   

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.

Are Taigs allowed to own land in Enniskillen ?

We can use analogies from Mayo and Limerick, yet not Fermanagh.  Do you hate nordies as much as you hate the jews?

If a piece of land is up for sale, it's up for sale. Should someone be allowed to stop selling homes or land to Poles/blacks/catholics/protestants just because they don't want them living there? Is it right that we need to use middle men in our own country? The person refusing to sell the land to someone because of their own prejudice is the one at fault, not the one buying.


As for this piece of utter garbage.........

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.

What a load of balls. Hundreds of thousands of arabs own land and property in Israel. There is no bar on anyone buying or selling private property in Israel. The only land that is not for sale to anyone, is state land, or land held in trust.

On the other hand................

PA Court: Death Penalty For Selling Land to Jews
Follow Virtual Jerusalem on  and

Date Posted: 2010-09-20 15:30:25
 


Selling land to Israel or Israelis is a capital offense, a Palestinian Authority court in the Jerusalem area ruled Thursday. The verdict overturned a lower court's ruling that such a sale was a "minor crime."


According to the Ma'an news agency based in Bethlehem, Judge Ta'et At-Twil ruled that the act of selling or attempting to sell land to a foreign country was a criminal offense which could warrant the death penalty.

A Prosecution statement said that the court issued the ruling as a consolidation of a previous legal principle, as per instructions it received from PA Attorney General Ahmad Al-Mughni. The Prosecution added that the ruling was made in order to "protect the Palestinian national project to establish an independent Palestinian state."In April 2009, a three-member PA military court sentenced a Hevron Arab to death by hanging for the crime of selling land to Jews in Judea and Samaria, Ma'an reported at the time.

Dozens of PA Arabs have been executed without trial in the past for collaborating with Israel by selling land to Jews, but the court's ruling last April was the first time the PA officially handed down a verdict of treason for the deed. Seven Arabs were executed in 1996 for "collaborating," and the PA later admitted that it was responsible for the murders. More executions took place in the following years, and one Arab, Mohammed Abu al-Hawa, was tortured and murdered in 2006 for allegedly selling an apartment building in Jerusalem to Jews.

While Jews are forbidden from buying land in the PA, PA leaders refuse to accept Israel's status as the state of the Jews. Israel does not forbid the buying of land by Arabs, and there have been persistent reports of oil-rich sheikhs who have been buying land in Israel for nationalistic reasons in the past few years.

http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=866

In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel's War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.


Please tell me I'm wrong.

You are always wrong .
Of course it is not allowed to sell land to Jews. Why would you sell land to someone who will then claim it belongs to his country? 

And West Bank and Gazan palestinians are not permitted to buy land in Israel. Why?
Palestinians are not allowed to claim compensation for land seized from them in 1948. Jews can regain land lost in 1948. Why? 

How much did the JNF buy pre 1948? Jews owned 6% of the land in what is now Israel in 1947. Very little.

Today they own over 91%. How did that happen? 
Your Israel supreme court story is bollocks.

Daniel Seidemann, a Jerualem lawyer, said that in his 20 years of handling residency rights cases for Palestinians he had never heard of a Palestinian with a Jerusalem ID living in West Jerusalem.

The reason, he pointed out, was that almost all land inside Israel's 1948 borders, including West Jerusalem, has been registered as "state land" managed by a body known as the Israel Lands Authority.

The authority allows neither Palestinians nor Israelis to buy property on state land. Instead long-term renewable leases are available to Israeli citizens and anyone eligible to immigrate to Israel under the country's Law of Return — meaning Jews.

The settlements in East Jerusalem — now covering 35 percent of the eastern city, according to Seidemann — are also built on land declared as "state land," in violation of international law. Again this means that only Israelis and Jewish foreign nationals are entitled to lease land there.

Because they do not hold Israeli citizenship, the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are disqualified from acquiring property either in West Jerusalem or in the settlements of East Jerusalem.

"The extraordinary situation is that a Palestinian who had his land expropriated to build the settlement of Har Homa [on the outskirts of East Jerusalem] cannot lease land there, whereas a Jew from Paris or London who is not even an Israeli citizen can."

[seafoid]

Are Taigs allowed to own land in Enniskillen ?
Are northern protestants legally allowed to buy land in Monaghan? 

Israel is a joke.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Types of land in Israel


Mike Decker, the author, has a B.A. in law and is a partner at the law offices of Yehuda Raveh & Co. For legal advice in purchasing real estate in Israel contact Mike at: mdecker@yrlegal.co.il

http://www.buypropertyinisrael.com/article/types-of-land-in-israel


The three different categories of land in Israel are:

Those which may not be purchased by foreign citizens;

Those which may be purchased by foreign citizens, yet are subject to various conditions;

And those which may be purchased by foreign citizens not subject to any conditions.

The overwhelming majority of land is Israel is owned by the State and only a small minority is under private ownership. A negligible portion of land in Israel has not yet been categorized into either of these two areas.

Approximately 7% of the allocated land in Israel is privately owned. The rest, i.e. 93%, is owned by the State and is known as "Israeli Land". Israel's Basic Law on real estate states that Israel's Land is jointly owned by the State (69%), the Development Authority (12%), and the Jewish National Fund (12%). While the law expressly forbids transferring of such land either by sale or other means, it does imply that a long term lease would be permitted.

State-owned land includes all land that was subject to the British Mandate prior to the foundation of the State of Israel and was requisitioned by the government subsequent to its establishment. Development Authority-owned land includes land that was confiscated in accordance with the Absentee Land Law and the Land Purchase Law. JNF-owned land consists of land purchased before and after Israel's inception. The JNF's by-laws grant it a fiduciary role, stipulating that land it owns shall be held for the benefit of and in trust for the Jewish people. This principal has so far been respected and was solidified in a treaty entered into between the JNF and the State. A bill has recently been submitted to the Knesset (Israel's parliament) with the interest of legislatively solidifying this principal and is likely to be passed in the near future.

State owned land ("Israeli Land") is administered by the Israel Land Administration (ILA). Being a government orchestrated entity, the ILA exercises very limited powers, namely: the administration of State-owned land. The ILA is required to remain faithful to the purpose for which it was established and may not deviate from its authority. Furthermore, being a government entity, the ILA is subject to legislatively mandated modes of behavior, such as equality in hiring standards and the proscription of discriminatory practices.

While there is no legislative mandate prescribing the objectives the ILA must advance, these have been established through judicial precedent. A seminal ruling dictating these objectives can be found in the Israel Supreme Court case of Adal Ka'adan v. the Israel Land Administration:

"...The objectives that comprise the core authority of the Israel Land Administration are the continuation of State control of Israeli Land and the perpetuation of the administration and development of land in Israel under the concentration of a singular government entity. This is to prevent the transfer of ownership to non-favorable entities, to advance security issues and to authorize the operation of different national projects – such as: the absorption of new immigrants, the proper distribution of the population and agricultural settlement..."

Now that I have clarified the different types of land prescribed under Israeli Law, I would like to discuss the opportunities existing for their acquisition. In principle, land that is owned by the Jewish National Fund can be leased to Jews only. The implication is that foreigners, as well as Israeli citizens and/or residents who are not Jewish, are not entitled to lease this land. Nevertheless, the land that is owned by the Development Authority and by the State can be leased to any citizen of Israel, whether he is Jewish or not. Foreigner's who are Jews and are entitled to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return may also lease this land.
It is our experience, though, that in spite of the aforementioned limitations, foreigners who are not Jews can also lease land from the Israeli Land Administration, although this would be subject to approval by a specially convened committee. Such approval, should it be granted, is subject to submission of a cogent and persuasive letter demonstrating the potential contribution the applicant can make to Israel. Recommendations from several Israeli sources attesting to this can also smooth the way to receipt of approval. Another option is to register a company and/or a not for profit organization in Israel and ensure that this entity has a board primarily comprising Israeli citizens.

The 7% of privately owned land is much less restrictive. The owner of such land may transfer his ownership to any other person, whether he is Jewish, non-Jewish, Israeli or non-Israeli.

Most of the privately owned land in the country is located in urban areas, chiefly in the large Israeli cities of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa. This is ascribed to the State not having requisitioned such land prior to its inception. This land, due to its geographical location and owning to the relative dearth of privately owned land, is in great demand today. Once again, there is no restriction on purchasing this land, irrespective of the potential buyer's religion or nationality.

Of course it is not allowed to sell land to Jews. Why would you sell land to someone who will then claim it belongs to his country? 

Sweet Jesus. Read this again, think about it, then tell me why it should apply in palestine but not in Israel. Why should Israel be held to a different set of rules than those expected of palestinians?
Jews are prohibited from owning ANY land in palestine, yet palestinians are prohibited from owning only certain types of land in Israel.

[seafoid]

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in israel. Why should jews be allowed to.buy land in thewest bank? Why is the land of the west bank not 93% state land as is the case in israel?
because 40% of the land in the west bank is state land that belongs to jewish settlers.
Anf if you post in red does it turn horseshit into fact?

Israel never paid for 87% of its land .

[seafoid]

Israeli prime minister asks David Cameron not to arm Syrian rebels with anti aircraft weaponry. Because it is worried Jihadis will attack Israel.  It is not like Israel ever attacked any of the neighbours or anything.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Israeli prime minister asks David Cameron not to arm Syrian rebels with anti aircraft weaponry. Because it is worried Jihadis will attack Israel.  It is not like Israel ever attacked any of the neighbours or anything.

If the rebels didn't hate the Israelis so much, Bibi would have gladly send in IAF and take out the Syrian aircraft for them. The truth is that no matter who wins in Syria, the will certainly be no friends of Israel, but it would probably suit Israel more for Assad to stay in charge, better the devil you know.

[seafoid]

Israeli prime minister asks David Cameron not to arm Syrian rebels with anti aircraft weaponry. Because it is worried Jihadis will attack Israel.  It is not like Israel ever attacked any of the neighbours or anything.

If the rebels didn't hate the Israelis so much, Bibi would have gladly send in IAF and take out the Syrian aircraft for them. The truth is that no matter who wins in Syria, the will certainly be no friends of Israel, but it would probably suit Israel more for Assad to stay in charge, better the devil you know.

The great tragedy of Israel. Violence never bought them the respect they crave from the neighbours.
I see Eilat was hit by rockets as well today.

Never mind. The nukes are still there. 

[seafoid]

http://www.haaretz.com/general/the-country-that-wouldn-t-grow-up-1.186721

"It has become commonplace to compare Israel at best to an occupying colonizer, at worst to the South Africa of race laws and Bantustans. In this capacity Israel elicits scant sympathy even when its own citizens suffer: Dead Israelis – like the occasional assassinated white South African in the apartheid era, or British colonists hacked to death by native insurgents – are typically perceived abroad not as the victims of terrorism but as the collateral damage of their own government's mistaken policies.

Such comparisons are lethal to Israel's moral credibility. They strike at what was once its strongest suit: the claim of being a vulnerable island of democracy and decency in a sea of authoritarianism and cruelty; an oasis of rights and freedoms surrounded by a desert of repression. But democrats don't fence into Bantustans helpless people whose land they have conquered, and free men don't ignore international law and steal other men's homes. The contradictions of Israeli self-presentation – "we are very strong/we are very vulnerable"; "we are in control of our fate/we are the victims"; "we are a normal state/we demand special treatment" – are not new: they have been part of the country's peculiar identity almost from the outset. And Israel's insistent emphasis upon its isolation and uniqueness, its claim to be both victim and hero, were once part of its David versus Goliath appeal."

[Ball DeBeaver]

2006, Could you not have gone back a bit further? 

[seafoid]

2006, Could you not have gone back a bit further? 

The notion that something that was written 7 years ago is irrelevant is very interesting. Israel decided to colonise the West Bank in 1967.
That was really stupid. Even Thatcher told Begin  as much. 
She said it was really dumb. and that was 30 years ago.

And it's still true today.
And Israel probably doesn't have another 30 years.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Arafat said something similar 40 years ago. Israel has just passed the 8 million citizen mark. Not bad for a dying nation.