The Palestine thread

[Lar Naparka]

That's what I had thought alright. I presume you are referring to Zionists here.

The thing about zionism is that the word is now being used to attack Israel. Those out to delegitimise Israel use it to try to evoke hatred in much the same as calling someone a nazi. Zionism is the word for jewish nationalism, which while many people don't like it, is a legitimate view to have. It's like Irish nationalism, or republicanism with different strands and both militant and moderate parts. The settlers you read about being evicted or attacking palestinians would be the zionist equivelant to the dissidents. Nut jobs.

Fair enough but this isn't made clear to the international community at large. People tend to be influenced by what they see and read and I guess what comes across doesn't do Israel's image any good. It's obvious that there are elements in Israeli society who want the Palestinians do do the fecking off to somewhere else. 
Beardy buckos in stovepipe hats taking on their own security forces don't project an image of  willingness to compromise and negotiate with anyone. They may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.
Is it fair to say that a large percentage of the Israeli people are more moderate than their international reputation suggests? The hawks dominate the agenda.
I've told by a number of people who are more familiar with happenings in Israel than I am that the desire of most people is to rear their children in safety and go about their daily business with as little fuss as possible.
Same I guess as the vast majority of both sections of the community in Northern Ireland.
When the Palestinians were granted observer status by the UN recently, the vote was carried by an overwhelmingly large majority. Even US support is not as forthcoming as it was.
Surely, 138 (I think) states can't be following the same hidden agenda?
The Palestinians will have to blink sometime and move back from confrontation but so do the Israelis.

[Ball DeBeaver]

That's what I had thought alright. I presume you are referring to Zionists here.

The thing about zionism is that the word is now being used to attack Israel. Those out to delegitimise Israel use it to try to evoke hatred in much the same as calling someone a nazi. Zionism is the word for jewish nationalism, which while many people don't like it, is a legitimate view to have. It's like Irish nationalism, or republicanism with different strands and both militant and moderate parts. The settlers you read about being evicted or attacking palestinians would be the zionist equivelant to the dissidents. Nut jobs.

Fair enough but this isn't made clear to the international community at large. People tend to be influenced by what they see and read and I guess what comes across doesn't do Israel's image any good. It's obvious that there are elements in Israeli society who want the Palestinians do do the fecking off to somewhere else. 
Beardy buckos in stovepipe hats taking on their own security forces don't project an image of  willingness to compromise and negotiate with anyone. They may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.
Is it fair to say that a large percentage of the Israeli people are more moderate than their international reputation suggests? The hawks dominate the agenda.
I've told by a number of people who are more familiar with happenings in Israel than I am that the desire of most people is to rear their children in safety and go about their daily business with as little fuss as possible.
Same I guess as the vast majority of both sections of the community in Northern Ireland.
When the Palestinians were granted observer status by the UN recently, the vote was carried by an overwhelmingly large majority. Even US support is not as forthcoming as it was.
Surely, 138 (I think) states can't be following the same hidden agenda?
The Palestinians will have to blink sometime and move back from confrontation but so do the Israelis.

I don't think I can fault a word you've written, other than to clarify this point

They may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.

They only punch above their weight shaping international opinion because their retarded actions give palestinians and their supporters the opportunity to portray them as the norm in Israeli society, therefore giving a grossly exaggerated view of Israeli society. Some of the governments policies don't exactly help either, but we shouldn't demonise an entire nation because of it's nut-jobs.
Not every Israeli wants Judea and Samaria annexed, to live in a kibbutz or the palestinians wiped out, but every single one of them wants to sleep secure in their beds at night. If that means building a fence around the whole damn country, then they'll do it. If it means stopping anyone not Israeli coming into the country, they'll do it. They really don't give a monkies what the world thinks, because they don't have anything to lose. They are already outcasts, and feel that no matter what they do, they'll still be hated. It's only if the outside world takes the time to look at the situation with open eyes will we learn the truth about what the reality is on the ground.
If the world were to judge us by the actions of the dissidents, how would you feel?

[Ball DeBeaver]

The difference between there and here, is that the palestinians do expect the Israelis to feck off somewhere else. The conflict they have there makes ours look like a squbble in a primary school playground. We have learned to live with each other, and hopefully someday we will be united, but the situation there looks like it can only worsen.

The irony is that if, because of us, you had to live with what you are defending, you would shoot everyone one of us on sight.

I can see the words, but I can only assume you have them in the wrong order. What are you trying to say?

If you were remotely bothered about what anyone else has to say you would understand. But looking at this thread you aren't bothered. You are trying to provoke reactions so yourself (or some fool like Mikey Sheehy) can jump up and down shouting 'anti-semite' claim some pathetic victory for yourself.

The only one here I would say is a true antisemite is Seafoid. His posts are rabidly antisemitic, with very lttle in the way of reason about them. There are some who just want to attack everything the other side says, no matter what they say, while having nothing constructive to add to the argument. Then you have the propogandist, who blindly clings to every word his palestinian masters utter, will give you the official palestinian press releases, without checking them to see if there is a shred of truth in it, while calling Israelis "murderers and baby killers," notably ignoring the murders and bombings perpertrated by the very people he so adores. Most others could generally be classed as "following the herd," in that as the poster sees himself as coming from a certain community, he should automatically toe the party line in support of the palestinians. Then there are the notable few who, while presumably being palestinian supporters, seem genuinely interested in what "the other side" has to say, and their reasoning behind it.
You can only learn the whole truth about any conflict if you can open your eyes and try to see it from the opposition's point of view.

I know which group you would fall into.

[seafoid]

So some settler reporter in 'judea and Samaria' reports that à majority of Israeli Jews do not want thePalestinians to get a not state . And that is grand per BOB. They can get ready for apartheid. It must be God's will for them.  Btw BOB there are  real antisemites in places like Hungary who have no problem with the notion of killing Jews because  they are Jews. And calling people who oppose the insanity of Israeli police today antisemites is pathetic . Israel will not survive apartheid. The jewish people deserve far better that to be led by sociopaths. They are better people that that.

[Ball DeBeaver]

And as if by magic......

There are plenty who come on here to "oppose the insanity of Israeli police" as you call it, without bringing it down to the perceived religion of the Israelis in question.  Can you not write one post without demonising someone's religion?
If someone is a bad person, they are a bad person. Their religion has f**k all squared to do with it. If I were to call (just an example, no inference is implied) **insert dissident's name** a bloodthirsty, catholic, murdering, sc**bag, I would be banned. But you are able to continually make wild accusations about people primarily because of their religion, with impunity. Why is that?
The only difference between you and your mates in Hungary is that they aren't keyboard warriors, and admit to being antisemites. You haven't even got the cojones to admit it.


*EDIT* Removed name to avoid ban

[seafoid]

Bdb.That last one was incoherent. Bringing judaism into a discussion on the jewish state wtf. Have you ever been to judea? Why do you call it judea?

[Ball DeBeaver]

Bdb.That last one was incoherent. Bringing judaism into a discussion on the jewish state wtf. Have you ever been to judea? Why do you call it judea?

See, there you go again. Still can't help yourself. 

The term "west bank" only came into being when Jordan controlled the area, and is now used by those who wish to delegitimise any link the area has to judaism. The names Judea and Samaria go back thousands of years, while "west bank" only goes back as far as my first sh*te.

[Lar Naparka]

That's what I had thought alright. I presume you are referring to Zionists here.

The thing about zionism is that the word is now being used to attack Israel. Those out to delegitimise Israel use it to try to evoke hatred in much the same as calling someone a nazi. Zionism is the word for jewish nationalism, which while many people don't like it, is a legitimate view to have. It's like Irish nationalism, or republicanism with different strands and both militant and moderate parts. The settlers you read about being evicted or attacking palestinians would be the zionist equivelant to the dissidents. Nut jobs.

Fair enough but this isn't made clear to the international community at large. People tend to be influenced by what they see and read and I guess what comes across doesn't do Israel's image any good. It's obvious that there are elements in Israeli society who want the Palestinians to do the fecking off to somewhere else. 
Beardy buckos in stovepipe hats taking on their own security forces don't project an image of  willingness to compromise and negotiate with anyone. They may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.
Is it fair to say that a large percentage of the Israeli people are more moderate than their international reputation suggests? The hawks dominate the agenda.
I've told by a number of people who are more familiar with happenings in Israel than I am that the desire of most people is to rear their children in safety and go about their daily business with as little fuss as possible.
Same I guess as the vast majority of both sections of the community in Northern Ireland.
When the Palestinians were granted observer status by the UN recently, the vote was carried by an overwhelmingly large majority. Even US support is not as forthcoming as it was.
Surely, 138 (I think) states can't be following the same hidden agenda?
The Palestinians will have to blink sometime and move back from confrontation but so do the Israelis.

I don't think I can fault a word you've written, other than to clarify this point

They may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.

They only punch above their weight shaping international opinion because their retarded actions give palestinians and their supporters the opportunity to portray them as the norm in Israeli society, therefore giving a grossly exaggerated view of Israeli society. Some of the governments policies don't exactly help either, but we shouldn't demonise an entire nation because of it's nut-jobs.
Not every Israeli wants Judea and Samaria annexed, to live in a kibbutz or the palestinians wiped out, but every single one of them wants to sleep secure in their beds at night. If that means building a fence around the whole damn country, then they'll do it. If it means stopping anyone not Israeli coming into the country, they'll do it. They really don't give a monkies what the world thinks, because they don't have anything to lose. They are already outcasts, and feel that no matter what they do, they'll still be hated. It's only if the outside world takes the time to look at the situation with open eyes will we learn the truth about what the reality is on the ground.
If the world were to judge us by the actions of the dissidents, how would you feel?

That's the reality I guess. A dog bites man type of story won't make the headlines but a man bites dog one certainly will.
Ordinary mundane happenings don't merit mention, whereas sensational ones grab the headlines. If the majority of the population of Israel are not intransigents and I believe they are not, this message is not coming across on our TV screens and in our papers.
True, we are getting a grossly exaggerated view of Israeli society but you can't blame/thank the Palestinian PR machine and their supporters for the footage and stories that are put before us on an all too frequent basis.
As you say, some of the governments policies don't exactly help either, which is putting it mildly.
Whether you agree with what it has to say or not, 'The Daily Telegraph' does help to shape British public opinion.
In this report, (23/Jan/2011) it is claimed that "former Israeli soldiers have for the first time allowed themselves to be named while blaming their commanders for encouraging a "disproportionate" response to Hamas's rockets. They said their commanders used to "psych up" soldiers before an operation so they were ready to shoot indiscriminately."

The report goes on to detail further breaches of stated Israeli government policy. including this: "In a report to be shown on Channel 4 News on Monday, Ohad, a 24-year-old tank commander, remembers being told the night before the operation that the entry into Gaza was to be "disproportionate". Once into Gaza, he said his orders were unambiguous: "The order was very clear that if a car came within 200 metres of me I could simply shoot at it. Shoot a shell at it."
Now, that's a man bites dog sort of story. The fact that 10 Israeli soldiers and three civilians died during this operation didn't get the same media coverage as the Palestinian casualty figures; 1,400 dead, 252 of those were children under the age of 16.
Now, whether you or I agree with it or not, the fact is that this paper carries weight when it comes to influencing public opinion. For me the salient point is that this incursion didn't stem the barrage of rocket attacks into Israel, which was supposed to be the object of the exercise.
Should Israeli allow itself to be influenced by world public opinion?
Is there an alternative?
The problem won't go away of its own accord and it seems a lot of Israeli people feel the same way. The fact that 40% of them favour a two-state solution amazes me. Keep in mind that this poll was conducted in the aftermath of the UN resolution granting observer status to the Palestinians at a time when the siege mentality was heightened. Seems Peres and Netanyahu feel the same way.
Heavy-handedness didn't work for the Brits in Ireland and I can't see it working for the Israelis either.
In 1916, the over the top reaction to what was in reality a minor spat in Dublin led to an almost total loss of support for the continuing English presence in ireland. Pearse & co. didn't change much but their executions did.
When the Black and Tans were loosed on the populace, they did more to speed up this departure than the IRA did. World opinion was outraged at their atrocities and nowhere more so than in England. The negative publicity they generated forced Lloyd George's hand more than the IRA could ever hope to do but, in fairness, they played their part.
Maybe the Israeli society should take note!
Finally, should the Israelis be concerned by the loss of international sympathy?
Well, we in southern Ireland had our own problems in this regard during the course of the recent troubles in the North. We were perceived to be a land ruled by terrorists and it really didn't matter if it were Provos or Loyalists who were featuring in the headlines.
Trade and tourism suffered an an already fragile economy was well and truly banjaxed by the additional security costs.
Irish living in Britain were subject to racial taunts and job discrimination at every turn.Everyone on the island, bar the nutters on both sides, were glad when confrontation was replaced by conciliation. Maybe the Israeli nation could learn from our bitter experiences?

[muppet]

The difference between there and here, is that the palestinians do expect the Israelis to feck off somewhere else. The conflict they have there makes ours look like a squbble in a primary school playground. We have learned to live with each other, and hopefully someday we will be united, but the situation there looks like it can only worsen.

The irony is that if, because of us, you had to live with what you are defending, you would shoot everyone one of us on sight.

I can see the words, but I can only assume you have them in the wrong order. What are you trying to say?

If you were remotely bothered about what anyone else has to say you would understand. But looking at this thread you aren't bothered. You are trying to provoke reactions so yourself (or some fool like Mikey Sheehy) can jump up and down shouting 'anti-semite' claim some pathetic victory for yourself.

The only one here I would say is a true antisemite is Seafoid. His posts are rabidly antisemitic, with very lttle in the way of reason about them. There are some who just want to attack everything the other side says, no matter what they say, while having nothing constructive to add to the argument. Then you have the propogandist, who blindly clings to every word his palestinian masters utter, will give you the official palestinian press releases, without checking them to see if there is a shred of truth in it, while calling Israelis "murderers and baby killers," notably ignoring the murders and bombings perpertrated by the very people he so adores. Most others could generally be classed as "following the herd," in that as the poster sees himself as coming from a certain community, he should automatically toe the party line in support of the palestinians. Then there are the notable few who, while presumably being palestinian supporters, seem genuinely interested in what "the other side" has to say, and their reasoning behind it.
You can only learn the whole truth about any conflict if you can open your eyes and try to see it from the opposition's point of view.

I know which group you would fall into.

Given your posts here your hypocrisy is staggering, truly staggering.

[seafoid]

Bdb.That last one was incoherent. Bringing judaism into a discussion on the jewish state wtf. Have you ever been to judea? Why do you call it judea?

See, there you go again. Still can't help yourself. 

The term "west bank" only came into being when Jordan controlled the area, and is now used by those who wish to delegitimise any link the area has to judaism. The names Judea and Samaria go back thousands of years, while "west bank" only goes back as far as my first sh*te.

Where does the name judea come from and why do you use it ? Why is the state  alongside called Israel'? Nothing whatsoever to do with judaism ?

[Ball DeBeaver]

Why do you hate Jews?

[seafoid]

Why do you hate Jews?

Why don't you stop beating your wife?

Come on BDB . Give us a reason to support Israeli apartheid. Surely you can come up with a better argument than 'if you don't you are a nazi'

[seafoid]

I wonder if BDB has ever heard of the Bal Shem Tov.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Why do you hate Jews?

Why don't you stop beating your wife?

Come on BDB . Give us a reason to support Israeli apartheid. Surely you can come up with a better argument than 'if you don't you are a nazi'

Classy guy

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

This is the type of individual that BDB would have us trying to understand: