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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: give her dixie on October 17, 2012, 01:29:42 PM

Title: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on October 17, 2012, 01:29:42 PM
From the "only democracy in the middle east", or "God's chosen people" as they like to call themselves.......

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/2-279-calories-per-person-how-israel-made-sure-gaza-didn-t-starve.premium-1.470419

After a three-and-a-half-year legal battle waged by the Gisha human rights organization, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories has finally released a 2008 document that detailed its "red lines" for "food consumption in the Gaza Strip."

The document calculates the minimum number of calories necessary, in COGAT's view, to keep Gaza residents from malnutrition at a time when Israel was tightening its restrictions on the movement of people and goods in and out of the Strip, including food products and raw materials. The document states that Health Ministry officials were involved in drafting it, and the calculations were based on "a model formulated by the Ministry of Health ... according to average Israeli consumption," though the figures were then "adjusted to culture and experience" in Gaza.


COGAT, appealing a District Court ruling to release the document, stated that it was merely a rough draft, that it was never actually implemented, and that it did not guide Israeli policy in practice. In its objection to the document's publication, COGAT argued that there was no reason to disclose what was essentially internal staff work, a mere proposal that was never actually put into effect. In fact, COGAT told Haaretz on Tuesday, after the document was drafted, the agency never even held a single discussion of it.

But the court disagreed, and on its orders, the document (in two different versions, both from January 2008) was given to Gisha two weeks ago. It is now being published here for the first time. Its very existence was also first reported in Haaretz, in a June 2009 article by Uri Blau and Yotam Feldman.

In September 2007, the cabinet, then headed by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, decided to tighten restrictions on the movement of people and goods to and from the Gaza Strip. The "red lines" document was written about four months afterward.

The cabinet decision stated that "the movement of goods into the Gaza Strip will be restricted; the supply of gas and electricity will be reduced; and restrictions will be imposed on the movement of people from the Strip and to it." In addition, exports from Gaza would be forbidden entirely. However, the resolution added, the restrictions should be tailored to avoid a "humanitarian crisis."

At a High Court hearing on Gisha's petition against this policy, government attorneys Gilad Sherman and Dana Briskman, backed by an affidavit from Col. Shlomi Mukhtar of COGAT, explained that "it is the state's right to decide that it doesn't intend to have economic ties with, or provide economic assistance to, the other party in the conflict, and to adopt a policy of 'economic warfare.'"

The "red lines" document calculates the minimum number of calories needed by every age and gender group in Gaza, then uses this to determine the quantity of staple foods that must be allowed into the Strip every day, as well as the number of trucks needed to carry this quantity. On average, the minimum worked out to 2,279 calories per person per day, which could be supplied by 1,836 grams of food, or 2,575.5 tons of food for the entire population of Gaza.

Bringing this quantity into the Strip would require 170.4 truckloads per day, five days a week.

From this quantity, the document's authors then deducted 68.6 truckloads to account for the food produced locally in Gaza ­ mainly vegetables, fruit, milk and meat. The documents note that the Health Ministry's data about various products includes the weight of the package (about 1 to 5 percent of the total weight) and that "The total amount of food takes into consideration 'sampling' by toddlers under the age of 2 (adds 34 tons per day to the general population)."

From this total, 13 truckloads were deducted to adjust for the "culture and experience" of food consumption in Gaza, though the document does not explain how this deduction was calculated.

While this adjustment actually led to a higher figure for sugar (five truckloads, compared to only 2.6 under the Health Ministry's original model),
it reduced the quantity of fruits and vegetables (18 truckloads, compared to 28.5), milk (12 truckloads instead of 21.1), and meat and poultry (14 instead of 17.2).

Altogether, therefore, COGAT concluded that Israel needed to allow 131 truckloads of food and other essential products into Gaza every day (via the "back to back" system, in which goods are transferred from an Israeli truck to a Palestinian one at the border). Of these, 106 would go through the Kerem Shalom crossing and the rest via the Karni crossing (which was closed a few years later).

The document states that then-Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai had approved the entry of 106 trucks per day even before the "red lines" were calculated, along with additional truckloads of wheat seed and animal feed.

The point of the "red lines" document was to see if this number of trucks in fact met Gaza's needs. But according to Gisha, UN data shows that the number of trucks allowed into Gaza each day often fell below this level.

COGAT, then headed by Maj. Gen. Amos Gilad, translated the government's policy of restrictions into two lists. The long one detailed the forbidden goods that couldn't be brought into the Strip (including, for example, building materials, needles, cloth and other raw materials, cleaning and bathing supplies, books, musical instruments and processed hummus). The short one listed those that could be brought in. The guiding principle was that instead of the supply of goods being dictated by demand, it would be dictated by the quantities and varieties deemed necessary by COGAT.

From time to time, COGAT officers revised the lists. Thus in late 2008, for instance, COGAT began allowing the import of shampoo ­ though conditioner was still banned. In 2009, plain processed hummus was taken off the banned list, but hummus with pine nuts was still off-limits.

To obey the cabinet's order to avoid a "humanitarian crisis," COGAT officers devised what they called "sensors" to warn them if there was a risk of impending malnutrition or an impending shortage of the permitted goods. Thus in addition to the "red lines," they produced two other documents: a model for estimating inventories of essential staples in Gaza, and a procedure for allowing the entry of goods into the Strip.

In practice, COGAT says, policy was guided by the inventory estimation model and the procedure for the entry of goods, not by the "red lines" document.

Following another petition to the High Court by Gisha, these two documents were published by Haaretz in October 2010.

"The quantification wasn't done in order to arrive at a minimum threshold or restrict the quantities, but the opposite ­ to ensure that there was no shortage," a COGAT official maintained Tuesday.

Gisha, however, doubts the claim that the "red lines" document was never actually used. For instance, it said, the prosecution evidently relied on the minimum threshold the document sets for meat (300 calves imported each week) when it argued in court against Gisha's request that the quota be increased during the Eid al-Fitr holiday, at the end of Ramadan. COGAT responded that this particular figure was part of the inventory estimation model, and therefore that it was in use.

International humanitarian organizations use a model called the Sphere standards to gauge a population's needs and determine the aid that should be sent to it in an emergency (whether war or natural disaster). This model is far more complex and less mathematical than the "red lines." But the most significant difference is that the "red lines" and the inventory estimation model were both devised by the very party that deliberately created the emergency situation, and that effectively controls both the territory and the population.

The drafters of the "red lines" document noted that the quantity of fruit and vegetables Gaza could produce for itself was expected to decline from 1,000 tons a day to 500 within a few months, due to the Israeli ban on bringing in seeds and other raw materials needed for agriculture, as well as the ban on exporting produce from the Strip. They predicted a similar fate for the poultry industry. But they didn't propose any solution for this decline.

Robert Turner, UNRWA's director of operations in the Gaza Strip, told Haaretz that he "read the draft with concern. If this reflects an authentic policy intended to cap food imports, this 'red lines' approach is contrary to humanitarian principles. If it is intended to prevent a humanitarian crisis by setting a minimum threshold, it has failed."

UNRWA, as the UN agency responsible for aiding Palestinian refugees, is closely involved in the daily lives of some 1 million residents of the Gaza Strip. Based on this knowledge, Turner asserted that "The facts on the ground in Gaza demonstrate that food imports consistently fell below the red lines.

Had official crossings been the only channel of food imports in the Gaza Strip and UN agencies not ensured that a minimal share of food reached the poorest, the recorded level of imports would have resulted in a substantial aggravation of nutritional deficiencies in the Gaza Strip."

Moreover, he said, the model failed to take into account the food lost due to the "back to back" trucking system: Sacks of food routinely break open and spill as they are being transferred from one truck to the other. This loss alone, Turner said, cost UNRWA about $5 million a year.

Asked whether the situation in Gaza is better today, now that the ban on the entry of food and most other goods has been lifted, Turner said that as long as the ban on exports remains in force, the "unprecedented levels of 'man made' aid dependency" will remain in force as well.

Attorney Sari Bashi of Gisha said Israel's claim that it isn't responsible for Gaza's population is clearly in contradiction with the fact that "it can determine the amount and types of food that will be found in the markets. This control obligates it to refrain from restrictions on movement that don't answer a concrete security need ­ an obligation that isn't being met by the current policy."

The Health Ministry did not respond to Haaretz's questions about its involvement in writing the document.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 17, 2012, 03:13:41 PM
Gaza is no longer occupied by Israel, my arse.

Some Yom Kippur the chosen people will atone for what they currently are doing to Gaza.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 17, 2012, 04:54:39 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2012/sep/11/black-ballet-gaza-proms-andy-murray

• It should be clear from Robert Turner's report on the outlook for Gaza (An early warning, 10 September) that the purpose of Israel's policy is what it always has been: to make Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians.
Lyndon Pugh
Brecon, Powys
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 05:50:35 PM
QuoteOctober 17, 2012


Amid rising unemployment and economic crisis, Gazans are queuing up to buy the Apple iPhone 5, willing to pay double its price, officials said.

The iPhones, sent from Dubai, are smuggled into Gaza via tunnels from Egypt, reaching the enclave before its neighbor Israel, al-Arabiya said Wednesday.

The cutting edge smart phone is being sold for nearly double the price in the United States, and cost $1,170 to $1,480 in Gaza, compared with $650 to $850 in the United States, the network said.

"I ordered 30 and have sold 20 so far. We can order as many as we want, but most people are waiting for the price to go down. They are pretty expensive," a dealer told the pan-Arab network.

Transport and handling costs for all imports are inflated by bribes paid in Egypt to facilitate the smuggling of goods into the area where 1.6 million live and Hamas also imposes sales tax on goods making it more expensive, the network said.

The iPhone will not be available until December in Israel. Apple has no official store or dealership in Gaza

http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2012/10/17/iphone_5_a_hit_in_gaza.htm (http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2012/10/17/iphone_5_a_hit_in_gaza.htm)

If things are so bad in gaza, then how come they can afford to pay $1000 for an iphone. I can't even afford that. FFS
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: armaghniac on October 17, 2012, 06:54:21 PM

QuoteIf things are so bad in gaza, then how come they can afford to pay $1000 for an iphone. I can't even afford that. FFS

"I ordered 30 and have sold 20 so far. We can order as many as we want, but most people are waiting for the price to go down.

So they've sold 30, that really proves things are great in Gaza.  Whoopee.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
It shows that things are so bad that they have the ready cash to splash on iphones. But they claim to be starving.

How many calories are in an iphone?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: armaghniac on October 17, 2012, 08:31:07 PM
Quotet shows that things are so bad that they have the ready cash to splash on iphones.

It shows that 30 people have the money to spend on an iPhone. What does that prove about everyone else?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 18, 2012, 01:13:37 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
It shows that things are so bad that they have the ready cash to splash on iphones. But they claim to be starving.

How many calories are in an iphone?

People in Gaza use the iphone for many things, and mainly to cover events on the ground via video like the relentless bombardment in the past 5 days that have left 5 people dead, bringing t5he total this year to over 70. Or to document the constant harasment of farmers and fishermen who are denied access to the sea and their land to farm. Others use in much the same way as the millions of others do, to send and receive calls and texts.

To try and defend the mass starvation of 1.5 million people by saying things are grand, sure 30 people have an iphone is pathetic and shows a serious lack of humanity on your behalf.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Agent Orange on October 18, 2012, 04:08:21 AM
If there is one good thing to come out of this, I'd say instances of obeisity in Gaza are few and far between.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: johnneycool on October 18, 2012, 08:27:00 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 18, 2012, 04:08:21 AM
If there is one good thing to come out of this, I'd say instances of obeisity in Gaza are few and far between.

Why not throw in a gag about the Nazi gas chambers as well for good measure?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: stew on October 18, 2012, 02:16:08 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 05:50:35 PM
QuoteOctober 17, 2012


Amid rising unemployment and economic crisis, Gazans are queuing up to buy the Apple iPhone 5, willing to pay double its price, officials said.

The iPhones, sent from Dubai, are smuggled into Gaza via tunnels from Egypt, reaching the enclave before its neighbor Israel, al-Arabiya said Wednesday.

The cutting edge smart phone is being sold for nearly double the price in the United States, and cost $1,170 to $1,480 in Gaza, compared with $650 to $850 in the United States, the network said.

"I ordered 30 and have sold 20 so far. We can order as many as we want, but most people are waiting for the price to go down. They are pretty expensive," a dealer told the pan-Arab network.

Transport and handling costs for all imports are inflated by bribes paid in Egypt to facilitate the smuggling of goods into the area where 1.6 million live and Hamas also imposes sales tax on goods making it more expensive, the network said.

The iPhone will not be available until December in Israel. Apple has no official store or dealership in Gaza

http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2012/10/17/iphone_5_a_hit_in_gaza.htm (http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2012/10/17/iphone_5_a_hit_in_gaza.htm)

If things are so bad in gaza, then how come they can afford to pay $1000 for an iphone. I can't even afford that. FFS

How can you read what GHD posted and make that statement???

I am sure, just like in Oireland that there are wealthy Palestinians......................... at least 30 of them! ;)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 02:33:16 PM
Quote
iPhone 5 Frenzy in Gaza Despite So-Called 'Harsh Blockade'

Apple's pricey new iPhone 5 is selling like hotcakes in Gaza despite inflated prices and Israel's so-called "harsh blockade."


AAFont Size
By Rachel Hirshfeld
First Publish: 10/17/2012, 10:25 AM




iphones being sold in Gaza

Reuters


Apple's pricey new iPhone 5 is selling like hotcakes in the Gaza Strip despite inflated prices and is being smuggled into the Hamas-ruled enclave even before it has reached Israel.

The latest version of Apple's sought-after iPhone is being sold for almost double its price in the United States, ranging from 4,500 Israeli shekels ($1,170) for the 16-gigabyte model to 5,700 ($1,480) for 64 gigabytes.

Its price has increased significantly due to middlemen who smuggle the smartphones into Gaza via tunnels linking the territory with Egypt.

The iPhone 5 will not be available until December from mobile operators in Israel, which along with Egypt maintains a limited blockade of Gaza in order to prevent the smuggling of weapons, which will then be directed against Israel by terrorists in Gaza.

The phones, however, have already been available for a couple of weeks in the Hamas-ruled territory and were on display on Monday in three independent mobile stores in Gaza City.

"I ordered 30 and I've sold 20 so far," one dealer said, according to Al-Arabiya, "we can order as many as we want, but most people are waiting for the price to go down, they're pretty expensive."

The iPhone 5, launched last month, sells for $650 and $850 for the 16 and 64-gigabyte versions respectively in the United States.

But the hefty mark-ups and high costs are not preventing buyers from purchasing the revered product.

One of the dealers in Gaza, where Apple has no store or official dealership, said "there are always some people prepared to pay whatever they must, just to be the first to have the latest thing."

"This, you'll recall, is the same Gaza that UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon characterized in an address to the UN Human Rights Council last month as suffering 'unremitting poverty' due to Israel's 'harsh' blockade, a humanitarian crisis so grave that he devoted more of his speech to Gaza and the Palestinians than he did to the slaughter in Syria, where the death toll is over 30,000 and rising daily. It's also the same Gaza that a UN report in August said would be 'unliveable' by 2020 if the blockade continued," explains Commentary Magazine's Evelyn Gordon.

"The first obvious lesson of these stories is that Gaza's "humanitarian crisis" is a fiction propagated by UN bureaucrats, "human rights" organizations and complicit journalists," Gordon goes on to state.

In the immortal words of Jimmy Cricket......."Here, there's more"


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161010 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161010)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: theticklemister on October 18, 2012, 03:04:49 PM
30 people in my street have an iphone. There are 30 people in my street.

The inhumanity amongst people on this board still surprises me.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 03:12:08 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 02:33:16 PM
Quote
iPhone 5 Frenzy in Gaza Despite So-Called 'Harsh Blockade'

Apple's pricey new iPhone 5 is selling like hotcakes in Gaza despite inflated prices and Israel's so-called "harsh blockade."


AAFont Size
By Rachel Hirshfeld
First Publish: 10/17/2012, 10:25 AM




iphones being sold in Gaza

Reuters


Apple's pricey new iPhone 5 is selling like hotcakes in the Gaza Strip despite inflated prices and is being smuggled into the Hamas-ruled enclave even before it has reached Israel.

The latest version of Apple's sought-after iPhone is being sold for almost double its price in the United States, ranging from 4,500 Israeli shekels ($1,170) for the 16-gigabyte model to 5,700 ($1,480) for 64 gigabytes.

Its price has increased significantly due to middlemen who smuggle the smartphones into Gaza via tunnels linking the territory with Egypt.

The iPhone 5 will not be available until December from mobile operators in Israel, which along with Egypt maintains a limited blockade of Gaza in order to prevent the smuggling of weapons, which will then be directed against Israel by terrorists in Gaza.

The phones, however, have already been available for a couple of weeks in the Hamas-ruled territory and were on display on Monday in three independent mobile stores in Gaza City.

"I ordered 30 and I've sold 20 so far," one dealer said, according to Al-Arabiya, "we can order as many as we want, but most people are waiting for the price to go down, they're pretty expensive."

The iPhone 5, launched last month, sells for $650 and $850 for the 16 and 64-gigabyte versions respectively in the United States.

But the hefty mark-ups and high costs are not preventing buyers from purchasing the revered product.

One of the dealers in Gaza, where Apple has no store or official dealership, said "there are always some people prepared to pay whatever they must, just to be the first to have the latest thing."

"This, you'll recall, is the same Gaza that UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon characterized in an address to the UN Human Rights Council last month as suffering 'unremitting poverty' due to Israel's 'harsh' blockade, a humanitarian crisis so grave that he devoted more of his speech to Gaza and the Palestinians than he did to the slaughter in Syria, where the death toll is over 30,000 and rising daily. It's also the same Gaza that a UN report in August said would be 'unliveable' by 2020 if the blockade continued," explains Commentary Magazine's Evelyn Gordon.

"The first obvious lesson of these stories is that Gaza's "humanitarian crisis" is a fiction propagated by UN bureaucrats, "human rights" organizations and complicit journalists," Gordon goes on to state.

In the immortal words of Jimmy Cricket......."Here, there's more"


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161010 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161010)

1. By Rachel hirsfeld -any idea what religion ?
2 Israel national news - the settler website
3 "The first obvious lesson of these stories is that Gaza's "humanitarian crisis" is a fiction propagated by UN bureaucrats, "human rights" organizations and complicit journalists," Gordon goes on to state.

Why are 80% of Gazans dependent on the UN for their daily nutrition ?

I think Gaza will be the issue that tears Judaism apart. Israel's behaviour towards Gaza is so blatantly evil and pharoah like that the
whole framework of Jewish morality will be unable to defend it.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 03:22:17 PM
http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/video/vtemp.php?id=0136 (http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/video/vtemp.php?id=0136)

Oh the suffering...... I've seen worse shops in the Kennedy Centre FFS.


Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: theticklemister on October 18, 2012, 03:46:07 PM
Can ye source an objective site..................
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 03:47:00 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 03:22:17 PM
http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/video/vtemp.php?id=0136 (http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/video/vtemp.php?id=0136)

Oh the suffering...... I've seen worse shops in the Kennedy Centre FFS.
There were shops in Castlebar selling chocolate while people were dying of hunger in the town in the 1840s .
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 04:05:38 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on October 18, 2012, 03:46:07 PM
Can ye source an objective site..................

I'm sorry, were the pictures NOT taken in Gaza Mall? Does it not show what certain people don't want you to know about?

The source has feck all squared to do with it.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 18, 2012, 04:10:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 03:22:17 PM
http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/video/vtemp.php?id=0136 (http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/video/vtemp.php?id=0136)

Oh the suffering...... I've seen worse shops in the Kennedy Centre FFS.


Ball DeBeaver, I have been posting for a few years now about Gaza, and have had many a debate with people on many issues. One thing we never had to deal with is people who think that it funny to see people suffering under a man made inhumane situation. There are many things that can be said, but one thing that can't be said is that the situation is funny. It's anything but.

Have a read at the article, which is a from a very well respected newspaper in Israel, Harratz. What are your thoughts on their plan to put 1.5 million people on a diet that contained just enough calories to stop them from dying. Now ask yourself, what kind of people would do such a thing? And is it really funny?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 04:18:21 PM
You do realise that there are 2 land borders with Gaza? Wht is there no outcry over the inhumane treatment that the Egyptians are causing in Gaza?
It suits Egypt to have the world to see Israel as the ones that are causing suffering to Gaza. Why doesn't Egypt open their border?

You start telling it straight, and I'll let it go. Don't leave out the bits that don't suit your agenda. 

If anyone thinks for one second I'm going to let them have a free ride on this, they're sadly mistaken.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 04:53:53 PM
A bit of a read, but goes to show that it isn't quite as bad as we are lead to believe.


Written by an Egyptian, no less.  ::)

QuoteIn an article in the Egyptian daily Al-Ahram on the economic situation in the Gaza Strip, journalist Ashraf Abu Al-Houl wrote about the burgeoning recreation industry and of the low merchandise prices.

Also as part of the interest in the economic situation in Gaza, the PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida published articles describing the expensive resorts that have been established for Gaza's newly rich, and a Palestinian website reported on the new mall recently opened in the city.

The following are excerpts from the articles:

Stores Overflow with Goods

Journalist Ashraf Abu Al-Houl wrote in Al-Ahram: "I was last in Gaza in mid-February. Returning three weeks ago, I found it almost unrecognizable... and the greatest surprise was the nature of that change. I would have expected a change for the worse, considering the blockade – but the opposite was the case; it seemed as if it had emerged from the blockade.

"A sense of absolute prosperity prevails, as manifested by the grand resorts along and near Gaza's coast. Further, the sight of the merchandise and luxuries filling the Gaza shops amazed me. Merchandise is sold more cheaply than in Egypt, although most of it is from the Egyptian market, and there are added shipping costs and costs for smuggling it via the tunnels – so that it could be expected to be more expensive.

"Before I judge by appearances, which can be misleading... [I would like to point out that] I toured the new resorts, most of which are quite grand, as well as the commercial markets, to verify my hypothesis. The resorts and markets have come to symbolize prosperity, and prove that the siege is formal or political, not economic. The reality [in Gaza] proves that the siege was broken even before Israel's crime against the ships of the Freedom Flotilla in late May; everything already was coming into the Gaza Strip from Egypt. If this weren't the case, businessmen would not have been able to build so many resorts in under four months."

Significantly Lower Prices

" began my search for the truth regarding the siege in Rafah, at the Saturday market, which was loaded with large quantities of merchandise and products of various kinds – at prices mostly lower than in Egypt, particularly for food products. Nevertheless, there weren't many customers, and this for two reasons: One, supply is much greater than demand, and two, the workers were all waiting to get paid their wages.

"Business owner Abu Yousuf stood at his shop surrounded by hundreds of cans of food. Their price had dropped significantly in the past two months; in some cases by as much as 50%. Clothing vendor Abu Muhammad Al-Masri noted that there was an unprecedented glut on the clothing market in the Gaza Strip. Clothing comes into Gaza from two sources: the tunnels, which provide large quantities, and the border crossings to Israel, via which even more goods arrive, most of which piled up at Ashdod port [and are now coming into the Strip]. He clarified that the merchants wanted to sell [lots of] goods to get back some of their money... and so had increased the supply in the markets, leading to lower prices.

"During my tour of the Rafah and Khan Younis markets, I noticed that the merchants were drastically marking down their merchandise, so as to get rid of goods smuggled in through the tunnels, and to prevent heavy losses... after Israel has decided to allow in Israeli and imported goods, as part of Israeli government measures to ease the blockade following the Freedom Flotilla massacre.

"Despite the drop in price due to the plethora of goods in the Gaza markets, the residents sense that even lower prices are on the way, due to the easing of the Israeli blockade. The consumers are carefully watching prices, [particularly for] smuggled electrical appliances and cars, and refrain from buying, expecting that merchandise will arrive via the border crossings [leading to a further drop in prices].

"A Gaza car showroom salesman said that he hoped to sell off his inventory and that he was not bringing in any new vehicles for fear of heavy losses, because Israel had decided to allow vehicles into Gaza for the first time since 2006. Anyone walking in the Gaza streets will see hundreds, if not thousands, of cars that entered Gaza from Egypt via the tunnels, and some of them are stolen. At the home and kitchen appliance dealers, there is a tempting array of all kinds of smuggled goods that sellers want to get rid of, due to the ongoing information about new products that Israel has decided to allow into to the city... "

Resorts for the Nouveau Riche

"The Gaza resorts paint a picture of prosperity enjoyed by only a few groups, most of which have become rich from the blockade, because they either own tunnels or else work for the many international organizations in Gaza, headed by UNRWA.

"The Gaza resorts are divided into several [categories], each of which has its own price range. This is not like it used to be, when all the tables on the beach were for the use of all the residents... I noticed that most of the resorts set a certain price for the tables near the sea, and a different price for tables farther away. This is in addition to high fees to enter the resort – no less than NIS 20 – and each activity within the [grounds] has its own fee. In short, a family visit, with a sandwich for each child, can cost up to NIS 500.

"Several months ago, Gaza had only one luxury resort, Zahrat Al-Madain. Today, another one opens up every day, such as Crazy Water, Aqua Park, and Al-Bustan. Most of them are owned by members, or associates, of Hamas. In addition, the Hamas municipalities [also] charge high fees, in Gaza terms, for the use of public beaches."

"'Aed Yaghi, senior official of the Al-Mubadara Al-Wataniyya party, which is headed by Palestinian Legislative Council member Mustafa Al-Barghouti, said, 'These resorts make you wonder. It is logical to invest when times are good – but when Gaza is suffering under siege and there is a possibility of renewed aggression [by Israel], no one knows what profitability there is in building resorts.'

"Walid Al-'Awwad, a member of the Palestinian People's Party political bureau, said, 'In the past two years, money-laundering has flourished in Gaza, as reflected by the construction of numerous resorts – all of which belong to influential individuals who participate in trafficking via the tunnels. Compared to the tunnel owners' increasing wealth, the [status] of the [established] wealthy families has waned... The spread of the grand resorts reflects the emergence of a bourgeoisie. Some of the fluidity in the Gaza market stems from the activity of clandestine elements – distributors of drugs, arms, and tunnel merchandise.'

"Human rights activist and political correspondent Mustafa Ibrahim said, 'Building resorts in the north [of the Strip] is contrary to the most fundamental principles of investment, because they are in regions exposed to shelling and destruction, due to the unceasing Israeli threats. Thus, veteran investors don't dare invest in this area. The elements behind the investment [in the north], who are sometimes hasty, rely on profits from trafficking via the tunnels for funding... This huge investment in the leisure industry is taking place today in Gaza at a time when 80% of the residents depend on aid from UNRWA and other organizations, and unemployment is at 45%. This creates a distorted picture, particularly when merchandise is piling up in the shops in a way that does not reflect the economic situation. Perhaps the current government created this distorted situation in order to show that it had succeeded in breaking the siege..."
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 04:18:21 PM
You do realise that there are 2 land borders with Gaza? Wht is there no outcry over the inhumane treatment that the Egyptians are causing in Gaza?
It suits Egypt to have the world to see Israel as the ones that are causing suffering to Gaza. Why doesn't Egypt open their border?

You start telling it straight, and I'll let it go. Don't leave out the bits that don't suit your agenda. 

If anyone thinks for one second I'm going to let them have a free ride on this, they're sadly mistaken.

Gaza is occupied by Israel. Jews in Israeli uniform control what Gazans feed their kids.
The territory will be more than likely uninhabitable by 2020 according to the UN.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/08/un-gaza-to-be-unlivable-by-2020-unless-serious-action-taken.html

Why would a GAA supporter want to see this happen? 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: theticklemister on October 18, 2012, 05:31:27 PM
All GAA supporters are not socialists
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 05:35:12 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on October 18, 2012, 05:31:27 PM
All GAA supporters are not socialists
But not so many are Nazis either
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 05:39:51 PM
Balldebeaver takes most of her stuff from memri

http://www.memri.org/report/en/print4482.htm

So I guess either she's a troll or she's working in the Israeli embassy.

Israel is losing the PR war in the west and it's vital to keep the flag flying on places like the GAAboard.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: armaghniac on October 18, 2012, 06:09:58 PM
QuoteIt suits Egypt to have the world to see Israel as the ones that are causing suffering to Gaza.

You'll have to get your story straight. Your contributions have been mostly along the lines that life isn't so bad in Gaza after all because of stuff coming in over the Eygptian border!
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 18, 2012, 06:09:58 PM
QuoteIt suits Egypt to have the world to see Israel as the ones that are causing suffering to Gaza.

You'll have to get your story straight. Your contributions have been mostly along the lines that life isn't so bad in Gaza after all because of stuff coming in over the Eygptian border!
23 posts in total and most of them are about Gaza.
Very fishy
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 06:32:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 18, 2012, 06:09:58 PM
QuoteIt suits Egypt to have the world to see Israel as the ones that are causing suffering to Gaza.

You'll have to get your story straight. Your contributions have been mostly along the lines that life isn't so bad in Gaza after all because of stuff coming in over the Eygptian border!
Don't you mean smuggled under the Egyptian border. YOU are the one that needs to get their story straight.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 06:34:49 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 04:18:21 PM
You do realise that there are 2 land borders with Gaza? Wht is there no outcry over the inhumane treatment that the Egyptians are causing in Gaza?
It suits Egypt to have the world to see Israel as the ones that are causing suffering to Gaza. Why doesn't Egypt open their border?

You start telling it straight, and I'll let it go. Don't leave out the bits that don't suit your agenda. 

If anyone thinks for one second I'm going to let them have a free ride on this, they're sadly mistaken.

Gaza is occupied by Israel. Jews in Israeli uniform control what Gazans feed their kids.
The territory will be more than likely uninhabitable by 2020 according to the UN.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/08/un-gaza-to-be-unlivable-by-2020-unless-serious-action-taken.html

Why would a GAA supporter want to see this happen?

I think you had better tell Hamas about all the Jews in uniform they have working for them in Gaza. You haven't the foggiest, have you?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 06:34:49 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 04:18:21 PM
You do realise that there are 2 land borders with Gaza? Wht is there no outcry over the inhumane treatment that the Egyptians are causing in Gaza?
It suits Egypt to have the world to see Israel as the ones that are causing suffering to Gaza. Why doesn't Egypt open their border?

You start telling it straight, and I'll let it go. Don't leave out the bits that don't suit your agenda. 

If anyone thinks for one second I'm going to let them have a free ride on this, they're sadly mistaken.

Gaza is occupied by Israel. Jews in Israeli uniform control what Gazans feed their kids.
The territory will be more than likely uninhabitable by 2020 according to the UN.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/08/un-gaza-to-be-unlivable-by-2020-unless-serious-action-taken.html

Why would a GAA supporter want to see this happen?

I think you had better tell Hamas about all the Jews in uniform they have working for them in Gaza. You haven't the foggiest, have you?
i see hasbara all the time. You all spout the same crap.

"There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza"

Why would you want a GAAboard account just for this? 
Why is it so important to defend the indefensible?   
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: dec on October 18, 2012, 06:56:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 06:34:49 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 04:18:21 PM
You do realise that there are 2 land borders with Gaza? Wht is there no outcry over the inhumane treatment that the Egyptians are causing in Gaza?
It suits Egypt to have the world to see Israel as the ones that are causing suffering to Gaza. Why doesn't Egypt open their border?

You start telling it straight, and I'll let it go. Don't leave out the bits that don't suit your agenda. 

If anyone thinks for one second I'm going to let them have a free ride on this, they're sadly mistaken.

Gaza is occupied by Israel. Jews in Israeli uniform control what Gazans feed their kids.
The territory will be more than likely uninhabitable by 2020 according to the UN.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/08/un-gaza-to-be-unlivable-by-2020-unless-serious-action-taken.html

Why would a GAA supporter want to see this happen?

I think you had better tell Hamas about all the Jews in uniform they have working for them in Gaza. You haven't the foggiest, have you?
i see hasbara all the time. You all spout the same crap.

"There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza"

Why would you want a GAAboard account just for this? 
Why is it so important to defend the indefensible?   

He signed up in 2006.
His first contribution on Gaza was yesterday.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 07:13:32 PM
SSSSSHH! I'm really an Israeli spy.  8)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 18, 2012, 08:33:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 18, 2012, 05:35:12 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on October 18, 2012, 05:31:27 PM
All GAA supporters are not socialists
But not so many are Nazis either

well we all know of at least one fella with a nazi level of hatred toward jews....hmmm...I wonder who that would be ?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 02:59:09 PM
I really don't know how these poor people survive on their meager rations.


(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/vandoren333/16%20th%20of%20july/nure60aky05z.jpg)

(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/vandoren333/16%20th%20of%20july/269514_173137889419347_100001694115678_419427_4493787_n.jpg)

Or where they can lay their hands on building materials, as it's impossible to come by in Gaza.

(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/vandoren333/16%20th%20of%20july/rpsbv0mw03pc.jpg)

(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/vandoren333/16%20th%20of%20july/110922131800Yh4E.jpg)

Would anyone like to see the pictures of either of the new 5 star hotels recently built? The holiday resorts? The amusement park? The multitude of new houses.


Food is not as scarce as the propogandists would have you believe. Building materials are in short supply, mainly because of the amount of building work going on, not just the economic blockade that has been imposed.

These photos are not taken from a zionist website. They are not part of any propoganda campaign. They are photos of everyday life in the Warsaw ghetto/Gaza strip.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 04:17:18 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 02:59:09 PM
I really don't know how these poor people survive on their meager rations.


(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/vandoren333/16%20th%20of%20july/nure60aky05z.jpg)

(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/vandoren333/16%20th%20of%20july/269514_173137889419347_100001694115678_419427_4493787_n.jpg)

Or where they can lay their hands on building materials, as it's impossible to come by in Gaza.

(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/vandoren333/16%20th%20of%20july/rpsbv0mw03pc.jpg)

(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/vandoren333/16%20th%20of%20july/110922131800Yh4E.jpg)

Would anyone like to see the pictures of either of the new 5 star hotels recently built? The holiday resorts? The amusement park? The multitude of new houses.


Food is not as scarce as the propogandists would have you believe. Building materials are in short supply, mainly because of the amount of building work going on, not just the economic blockade that has been imposed.

These photos are not taken from a zionist website. They are not part of any propoganda campaign. They are photos of everyday life in the Warsaw ghetto/Gaza strip.
It's very hard to understand that Israel has money for white phosphorous in Gaza while its own Jewish kids don't have enough to eat

http://www.meirpanim.net/campaign/2010/rh2010/clean.htm
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 04:40:01 PM
Israel isn't trying to con the world into thinking that the Palestinians are starving Israeli kids.


Are you and GHD going to continue the lie that Palestinian kids are starving because of the blockade?


There is hunger in EVERY country on this planet. Gaza is not unique.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 05:10:27 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 04:40:01 PM
Israel isn't trying to con the world into thinking that the Palestinians are starving Israeli kids.


Are you and GHD going to continue the lie that Palestinian kids are starving because of the blockade?


There is hunger in EVERY country on this planet. Gaza is not unique.
Gaza is a micromanaged catastrophe.
There are 1.5 million people in Gaza. 80% of them depend on aid for food.


Gaza is Israel's dirty secret.

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/10/101117_put_the_palestinians.php
The released documents, whose existence Israel had denied for eighteen months, reveal that the state approved "a policy of deliberate reduction" of basic goods, including food and fuel, in the Gaza Strip.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTCY/EXTECD/0,,contentMDK:20207804~menuPK:528430~pagePK:148956~piPK:216618~theSitePK:344939,00.html

Does undernutrition impair behavioral development?

Poor nutrition during intrauterine life and early years leads to profound and varied effects including:
- Delayed physical growth and motor development
- General effects on cognitive development resulting in lower IQs (lower by 15 points or more in the severely malnourished)
- Greater degree of behavioral problems and deficient social skills at school age
- Decreased attention, deficient learning, and lower educational achievement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18436602
Gaza's sewage system is "completely broken".

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-scientists-find-new-strain-of-mrsa-bacteria-spreading-in-gaza-city.premium-1.437002

Israeli scientists find new strain of MRSA bacteria spreading in Gaza City

http://www.ewash.org/en/?view=79YOcy0nNs3Du69tjVnyyumIu1jfxPKNuunzXkRpKQN7IwQaTRTG
•   Gaza water too contaminated to drink, say charities (BBC News)

10 per cent of Gazan children are so malnourished that their development is permanently stunted


Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 05:23:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 18, 2012, 04:10:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 18, 2012, 03:22:17 PM
http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/video/vtemp.php?id=0136 (http://unitycoalitionforisrael.org/video/vtemp.php?id=0136)

Oh the suffering...... I've seen worse shops in the Kennedy Centre FFS.


Ball DeBeaver, I have been posting for a few years now about Gaza, and have had many a debate with people on many issues. One thing we never had to deal with is people who think that it funny to see people suffering under a man made inhumane situation. There are many things that can be said, but one thing that can't be said is that the situation is funny. It's anything but.

Have a read at the article, which is a from a very well respected newspaper in Israel, Harratz. What are your thoughts on their plan to put 1.5 million people on a diet that contained just enough calories to stop them from dying. Now ask yourself, what kind of people would do such a thing? And is it really funny?

You obviously don't know the difference between having enough to survive and having enough to live healthily, or you are deliberately distorting the facts.

Quote

Adults

The U.S. Department of Agriculture recommends...
2,000 calories a day for women between the ages of 19 and 30;
1,800 calories for women between the ages of 31 to 50; and
1,600 calories for women 51 and older.
The USDA recommends 2,400 calories a day for men between the ages of 19 and 30;
2,200 calories for men between the ages of 31 and 50;
and 2,000 calories for men 51 and older.

These figures are for a healthy lifestyle. NOT a diet with "just enough calories to stop them from dying".

A footballers caloric intake....
QuoteCalculations

According to "Food Guide for Soccer," to calculate your calorie needs estimate the baseline of calories you need for your resting metabolic rate by multiplying 10 times your weight in pounds; say, 1,500 if you weigh 150 pounds. Add another 50 percent if you are active apart from soccer, or 750 calories. Add 600 calories for each hour of soccer training and if you play a full, highly competitive game, add 1,100 calories if you are female and 1,500 if you are male. Thus, an active player weighing 150 pounds on a day with a one-hour practice needs a calorie intake of about 2,850: 1,500 for his resting metabolic rate, 750 for daily activities and 600 for training.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/446441-caloric-intake-for-soccer-players/#ixzz29lKMmozH

When you look at these figures then 2279 calories per person per day, isn't that far off the mark for what they need. Don't forget, not all are young adults, who require more than children and the elderly.



FACTS, NOT FICTION. FACTS, NOT MISINFORMATION.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: nifan on October 19, 2012, 06:00:21 PM
QuoteHave a read at the article, which is a from a very well respected newspaper in Israel, Harratz. What are your thoughts on their plan to put 1.5 million people on a diet that contained just enough calories to stop them from dying.

Surely the figure of 2279 is the correct average intake across men and women in order to maintain weight.
It is far from starving.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 06:08:26 PM
Quote from: nifan on October 19, 2012, 06:00:21 PM
QuoteHave a read at the article, which is a from a very well respected newspaper in Israel, Harratz. What are your thoughts on their plan to put 1.5 million people on a diet that contained just enough calories to stop them from dying.

Surely the figure of 2279 is the correct average intake across men and women in order to maintain weight.
It is far from starving.

And the poor who don't have the money to pay for food? Would everyone in a society have access to the same number of calories if less than 2300 is the average for the whole territory ? Mothers who are so weak they can't breastfeed their kids and have no money to pay for formula, for example.

10% of kids are stunted because of Israeli policy.

Israel is a disgrace. 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 06:11:24 PM
Palestinians are different though. They need more calories than a professional footballer.
;)



Quote from: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 05:10:27 PM

Gaza is a micromanaged catastrophe.
There are 1.5 million people in Gaza. 80% of them depend on aid for food.
Depending on who you believe, 60% of them are said to be unemployed, so that figure could very well be correct.

QuoteGaza is Israel's dirty secret.

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/10/101117_put_the_palestinians.php
The released documents, whose existence Israel had denied for eighteen months, reveal that the state approved "a policy of deliberate reduction" of basic goods, including food and fuel, in the Gaza Strip.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTCY/EXTECD/0,,contentMDK:20207804~menuPK:528430~pagePK:148956~piPK:216618~theSitePK:344939,00.html

Does undernutrition impair behavioral development?

Poor nutrition during intrauterine life and early years leads to profound and varied effects including:
- Delayed physical growth and motor development
- General effects on cognitive development resulting in lower IQs (lower by 15 points or more in the severely malnourished)
- Greater degree of behavioral problems and deficient social skills at school age
- Decreased attention, deficient learning, and lower educational achievement.
Who is being undernourished?
Quote
Children require several things to help them grow into healthy adults, including exercise, sleep and proper nutrition. However, determining how many calories children need at the various stages of development is often a difficult task.

Infants

After a diet of only milk for the first four to six months, iron-fortified cereals, fruit, vegetables and meats are introduced. A diet containing 500 to 700 calories is usually sufficient. It should not be low-fat unless recommended by your pediatrician. The American Academy of Pediatrics has stated that a healthy amount of fat is important for babies' brain and nerve development.


Toddlers

Toddlers are in constant motion and can become very opinionated about what they want to eat. Care needs to be paid to the quality of their diet, with emphasis on avoiding empty calories. Children this age generally require 1,000 to 1,100 calories per day.

Preschool

The age of the picky eater often continues into the preschool years. About 1,200 to 1,400 calories per day is sufficient.

School Age

School-age children often ingest too much sugar, fat and salt. About 1,600 to 1,800 calories per day will provide the energy needed to fuel the brain and body.

Adolescents

Teens are often very conscious of their appearance, and this sometimes leads to eating disorders. Adolescents need 1,800 to 2,200 calories per day to fuel the many changes taking place.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/28424-many-calories-children-need/#ixzz29lSVfMCt



                         
Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18436602
Gaza's sewage system is "completely broken".
Haven't you been watching the news about the floods all over the UK and Ireland. The sewers in this part of the world are crap too.                                                   

Quote

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-scientists-find-new-strain-of-mrsa-bacteria-spreading-in-gaza-city.premium-1.437002

Israeli scientists find new strain of MRSA bacteria spreading in Gaza City
New strains of disease are discovered spreading all over the west too.

Quotehttp://www.ewash.org/en/?view=79YOcy0nNs3Du69tjVnyyumIu1jfxPKNuunzXkRpKQN7IwQaTRTG
•   Gaza water too contaminated to drink, say charities (BBC News)
The drinking water in much of Europe is so contaminated it has to be boiled.  Would you drink from a tap in Spain?                       
Quote

10 per cent of Gazan children are so malnourished that their development is permanently stunted
I refer you again to my second answer.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 06:47:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 06:11:24 PM
Palestinians are different though. They need more calories than a professional footballer.
;)



Quote from: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 05:10:27 PM

Gaza is a micromanaged catastrophe.
There are 1.5 million people in Gaza. 80% of them depend on aid for food.
Depending on who you believe, 60% of them are said to be unemployed, so that figure could very well be correct.

QuoteGaza is Israel's dirty secret.

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/10/101117_put_the_palestinians.php
The released documents, whose existence Israel had denied for eighteen months, reveal that the state approved "a policy of deliberate reduction" of basic goods, including food and fuel, in the Gaza Strip.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTCY/EXTECD/0,,contentMDK:20207804~menuPK:528430~pagePK:148956~piPK:216618~theSitePK:344939,00.html

Does undernutrition impair behavioral development?

Poor nutrition during intrauterine life and early years leads to profound and varied effects including:
- Delayed physical growth and motor development
- General effects on cognitive development resulting in lower IQs (lower by 15 points or more in the severely malnourished)
- Greater degree of behavioral problems and deficient social skills at school age
- Decreased attention, deficient learning, and lower educational achievement.
Who is being undernourished?
Quote
Children require several things to help them grow into healthy adults, including exercise, sleep and proper nutrition. However, determining how many calories children need at the various stages of development is often a difficult task.

Infants

After a diet of only milk for the first four to six months, iron-fortified cereals, fruit, vegetables and meats are introduced. A diet containing 500 to 700 calories is usually sufficient. It should not be low-fat unless recommended by your pediatrician. The American Academy of Pediatrics has stated that a healthy amount of fat is important for babies' brain and nerve development.


Toddlers

Toddlers are in constant motion and can become very opinionated about what they want to eat. Care needs to be paid to the quality of their diet, with emphasis on avoiding empty calories. Children this age generally require 1,000 to 1,100 calories per day.

Preschool

The age of the picky eater often continues into the preschool years. About 1,200 to 1,400 calories per day is sufficient.

School Age

School-age children often ingest too much sugar, fat and salt. About 1,600 to 1,800 calories per day will provide the energy needed to fuel the brain and body.

Adolescents

Teens are often very conscious of their appearance, and this sometimes leads to eating disorders. Adolescents need 1,800 to 2,200 calories per day to fuel the many changes taking place.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/28424-many-calories-children-need/#ixzz29lSVfMCt



                         
Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18436602
Gaza's sewage system is "completely broken".
Haven't you been watching the news about the floods all over the UK and Ireland. The sewers in this part of the world are crap too.                                                   

Quote

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-scientists-find-new-strain-of-mrsa-bacteria-spreading-in-gaza-city.premium-1.437002

Israeli scientists find new strain of MRSA bacteria spreading in Gaza City
New strains of disease are discovered spreading all over the west too.

Quotehttp://www.ewash.org/en/?view=79YOcy0nNs3Du69tjVnyyumIu1jfxPKNuunzXkRpKQN7IwQaTRTG
•   Gaza water too contaminated to drink, say charities (BBC News)
The drinking water in much of Europe is so contaminated it has to be boiled.  Would you drink from a tap in Spain?                       
Quote

10 per cent of Gazan children are so malnourished that their development is permanently stunted
I refer you again to my second answer.
Troll. People are dying in Gaza because of the Jewish state and you want to rise people.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 07:06:05 PM
Instead of throwing insults, why don't you prove me wrong?

As for people dying, would you like me to post the stats regarding the ratio of combatants v civilian casualties? Using every other conflict on the planet, the Israelis seem to be very restrained in their targetting.

QuoteCivilian casualty ratio

The civilian casualty ratio of the targeted killings was surveyed by Haaretz military journalist Amos Harel. In 2002 and 2003, the ratio was 1:1, meaning one civilian killed for every terrorist killed. Harel called this period "the dark days" because of the relatively high civilian death toll as compared to later years. He attributed this to an Israeli Air Force (IAF) practice of attacking terrorists even when they were located in densely populated areas. While there were always safety rules, argued Harel, these were "bent" at times in view of the target's importance.[18]

The civilian casualty ratio dropped steeply to 1:28 in late 2005, meaning one civilian killed for every 28 terrorists killed. Harel credited this drop to the new IAF chief Eliezer Shkedi's policies. The ratio rose again in 2006 to 1:10, a fact that Harel blamed on "several IAF mishaps". However, in 2007 and 2008 the ratio dropped to an unprecedented level of less than 1:30, or 2–3 percent of the total casualties being civilian.[18] Figures showing an improvement from 1:1 in 2002 to 1:30 in 2008 were also cited by Jerusalem Post journalist Yaakov Katz.[19]

Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated that the 2008 figure of 1:30 represents the lowest civilian to combatant casualty ratio in history in the setting of combating terrorism. Dershowitz criticized the international media and human rights organizations for not taking sufficient note of it. He also argued that even this figure may be misleading because not all civilians are innocent bystanders.[20]

In October 2009, Dershowitz stated that the ratio for Israel's campaign of targeted killings of terrorists stood at 1 civilian for every 28 terrorists. He argued that "this is the best ratio of any country in the world that is fighting asymmetrical warfare against terrorists who hide behind civilians. It is far better than the ratio achieved by Great Britain and the United States in Iraq or Afghanistan, where both nations employ targeted killings of terrorist leaders." Regarding the practices which might have led to this record and the reasons the civilian death rate nevertheless remained above zero, Dershowitz cited Col. Richard Kemp's statements on the Gaza War:[21]


[f]rom my knowledge of the IDF and from the extent to which I have been following the current operation, I don't think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza... Hamas, the enemy they have been fighting, has been trained extensively by Iran and by Hezbollah, to fight among the people, to use the civilian population in Gaza as a human shield... Hamas factor in the uses of the population as a major part of their defensive plan. So even though as I say, Israel, the IDF, has taken enormous steps...to reduce civilian casualties, it is impossible, it is impossible to stop that happening when the enemy has been using civilians as human shields.

However, in a July 2011 article published in the Michigan War Studies Review, "Targeted Killings: A Modern Strategy of the State", A.E. Stahl and William F. Owen wrote that casualty ratios and death counts in general should be initially considered with dubiety. Stahl and Owen state: "A caveat: reported death counts and casualty ratios should be approached with skepticism. Statistics are too easy to manipulate for political purposes, vitiating arguments based on them."[18]

The Israeli Human Rights organization B'Tselem carries out their own investigations on fatalities in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and does not rely on official IDF statistics. According to B'Tselem statistics Israeli targeted killings claimed 425 Palestinian lives between September 2000 and August 2011. Of these, 251 persons (59.1 percent) were the targeted individuals and 174 (40.9 percent) were civilian bystanders. This implies a ratio of civilians to targets of 1:1.44 during the whole period.[22]

I know, it's wiki. But there's not a lot of impartial material out there.


On the other hand, rockets fired from Gaza aren't just as accurate.  ::)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: dec on October 19, 2012, 07:27:31 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 07:06:05 PM
Instead of throwing insults, why don't you prove me wrong?

As for people dying, would you like me to post the stats regarding the ratio of combatants v civilian casualties? Using every other conflict on the planet, the Israelis seem to be very restrained in their targetting.

Quote...
Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated that the 2008 figure of 1:30 represents the lowest civilian to combatant casualty ratio in history in the setting of combating terrorism. Dershowitz criticized the international media and human rights organizations for not taking sufficient note of it. He also argued that even this figure may be misleading because not all civilians are innocent bystanders.[20]
...
I know, it's wiki. But there's not a lot of impartial material out there.


On the other hand, rockets fired from Gaza aren't just as accurate.  ::)

Wikipedia is perfectly respectable and I am sure it is quoting Professor Dershowitz's words correctly.

I am also sure that the wikipedia article on him is a fairly accurate representation of his views on Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Dershowitz#On_Israel
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 07:38:06 PM
He's perfectly entitled to hold that view, and seeing as he does, it only goes to strengthen the veracity of his statement.   

And I quote.......

Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated that the 2008 figure of 1:30 represents the lowest civilian to combatant casualty ratio in history in the setting of combating terrorism. Dershowitz criticized the international media and human rights organizations for not taking sufficient note of it. He also argued that even this figure may be misleading because not all civilians are innocent bystanders
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: dec on October 19, 2012, 07:41:32 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 19, 2012, 07:38:06 PM
He's perfectly entitled to hold that view, and seeing as he does, it only goes to strengthen the veracity of his statement.   

And I quote.......

Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated that the 2008 figure of 1:30 represents the lowest civilian to combatant casualty ratio in history in the setting of combating terrorism. Dershowitz criticized the international media and human rights organizations for not taking sufficient note of it. He also argued that even this figure may be misleading because not all civilians are innocent bystanders

Did you actually read the link. How does his very pro Israel viewpoint "strengthen the veracity of his statement"?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 08:56:17 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-in-gaza-killing-civilians-vandalism-and-lax-rules-of-engagement-1.272379

During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.



http://www.countercurrents.org/lendman240709.htmOperation Cast Lead Testimonies

One soldier said:

"....In training you learn that white phosphorus is not used, and you're taught that it's not humane. You watch films and see what it does to people who are hit, and you say, 'There, we're doing it too.' That's not what I expected to see. Until that moment I had thought that I belonged to the most humane army in the world."

Other testimonies describe white phosphorous used in densely populated neighborhoods, wanton killing and destruction "unrelated to any direct threat to Israeli forces, and permissive rules of engagement that led to the killing of innocents."

More comments reflected the "moral deterioration" of the army and Israeli society, even affecting the rabbinate that blessed mass slaughter and destruction prior to engagements.

Soldier testimonies bear witness to disturbing Israeli values "on a systemic level." Operation Cast Lead's rein of terror was "a direct result of IDF policy, and especially (its) rules of engagement (that sanction) shoot (first) and (don't) ask questions."

Breaking the Silence participants offered their testimonies as "an urgent call to Israeli society and its leaders to sober up and investigate anew the results of our actions....(a disturbing) slide together down the moral slippery slope" that affects them and all Jews globally.

Testimony 1 - Human Shield

People are called "Johnnie. They're Palestinian civilians" in Gaza neighborhoods. In checking out houses, "we send the neighbor in, the 'Johnnie,' and if there are armed men inside, we (use) 'pressure cooker' procedures....to get them out alive....to catch the armed men." When necessary, combat helicopters are called in to fire anti-tank missiles at civilian homes. Then send a "Johnnie" in to check for dead and wounded.

In one home, two were dead and another alive, so supersized Caterpillar D-9 bulldozers start "demolishing the house over him until the neighbor went in" and got him out.

Human shields were also used to check for booby-traps and perform other services. "Sometimes the force would enter while placing rifle barrels on a civilian's shoulder, advancing into the house and using him as a human shield. Commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it."

Testimony 2 - House Demolitions

Residential buildings at strategic points were taken over by force. Neighborhoods were described with "lots of destroyed houses....ruins....more and more ruins, and even the houses still standing, most of them kept getting shelled...." Other houses were blasted....blown "up in the air" with explosives.

"Operational necessity" sometimes meant a whole neighborhood was destroyed so as "not to jeopardize Israeli soldiers (and with) the day after" in mind, meaning to disrupt Gaza life to the maximum and leave it that way after forces pulled out.

Testimony 3 - Rules of Engagement

Descriptions included "enter(ing) a yard and out of sheer fear the family was waiting in an exposed spot - a father, grandfather, young mother and babies. As we were coming in, the commander was firing a volley, and mistakenly killed an innocent. We got to the house....he goes in with live fire....the family was hiding from the bombings....he happened to kill an elderly guy....it really seems insane....if I look at it from the (other) side, there are people who deserve to go to jail."

Testimony 4 - Rules of Engagement & Home Occupation

Tactics taught are "dry" and "wet" entries. In Gaza, there was "no such thing as a dry entry. All entries were wet," meaning free-firing with missiles, tank shells, machine guns, grenades, everything. On the ground, wet entry orders were to "shoot as we enter a (house or) room (so) no one there could fire at us."

Testimony 5 - Atmosphere

What "bothered me? Many things....all that destruction. All that fire at innocents. This shock of realizing with whom I'm in this together....the hatred, and the joy of killing....I killed a terrorist....blew his head off....There's nothing to hold you back." They're just Arabs.

Testimony 6 - Bombardment

The new 120mm Mortar was used in Gaza with "95 - 100%" accuracy. When it hits, it scatters shrapnel all around. It was used against neighborhoods. Innocents were hit, and "our artillery fire there was insane...."

"Most of the time firing was for softening resistance I think....We simply received orders. If we hit terrorists, then I guess that was the purpose."

Testimony 7 - Rules of Engagement

The commander stressed using "fire power" from the air and on the ground. "You see something and you're not quite sure? You shoot....Fire power was insane. We went in and the booms were just mad. The minute we got to our starting line, we simply began to fire at suspect places....a house, a window....In urban warfare, anyone is your enemy. No innocents." Houses were taken over with soldiers positioned inside "according to plan."

Testimony 8 - Rules of Engagement & Use of White Phosphorous

Some of the younger soldiers "think it's cool to wield such power with no one wanting to rein them in. They (were given) permission to open fire" even at most people who "definitely (are) not terrorists." Free fire used all weapons against "everything (including) houses," whether or not they looked suspect. "I know (that some) crews....even fired white phosphorous. Our battalion mortars (and tanks) were also using phosphorous."

Sometimes an order was given: "Permitted, phosphorous in the air." At times, it was used "because it's fun. Cool. I don't understand what it's used for."

Testimony 9 - Rules of Engagement & House Demolitions

"From the onset....the brigade commander and other officers made it very clear to us that any movement must entail gunfire" with or without being shot at. Alerts were given about a suicide bomber or sniper in the area, but "none of (these) materialized as far as our company was concerned."

"Houses were demolished everywhere." They were fired at "with tremendous power. We didn't see a single house that remained intact....The entire infrastructure, tracks, fields, roads (were) in total ruin." D-9 bulldozers demolished everything "in our designated area. It looked awful, like in those World War II films where nothing remained. A totally destroyed city."

Testimony 10 - Briefings

Formal briefings covered "going off to war (and in war) no consideration of civilians was to be taken. Shoot anyone you see....this pretty much disgusted me. There was a clear feeling, and this was repeated whenever others spoke to us, that no humanitarian consideration played any role in the army at present."

Language used in one briefing was something like: "Don't let morality become an issue. That will come up later. Leave the nightmares and horrors that will come up for later, now just shoot."

Testimony 11 - Use of White Phosphorous & Rules of Engagement

"We walked (with another battalion) and saw all the white phosphorous bombs....we saw glazing on the sand (resulting) from white phosphorous (use), and it was upsetting." Houses were targeted and many around them were destroyed with people inside them.

Testimony 12 - Rules of Engagement

Moving into an area, orders were to "hold the junction, control it." Vehicle movement wasn't allowed and those advancing were fired on. Whole areas were abandoned. In entering houses, strict procedure is followed, including "setting red lines. It means that whoever crosses this line is shot, no questions asked." Orders always were shoot to kill, including women and children.

Testimonies 13 and 14 - Rules of Engagement

Houses were entered with gunfire and taken over. Some civilians were killed. Anyone out at night was called a terrorist even if it was clear he had no weapons.

Testimonies 15 and 16 - Rabbinate Unit

Promoting "Jewish Awareness," rabbis talked with soldiers and gave out materials, the Book of Psalms and some brochures. War got a religious tone against "four enemies:" Hamas, Iran, the Palestinian Authority even though it doesn't control Gaza, and Arab citizens of Israel. Rabbinate briefings said "they (all) undermine us."

Also that Israel was fighting a "war of choice, (a) holy war (with) differing rules." The message "aimed at inspiring the men with courage, cruelty, aggressiveness (and feeling) no pity, God protects you, everything you do is sanctified....Palestinians are the enemy....everyone."
Soldiers were told to be "crusaders," to have a "proper fighting spirit," and show no mercy. Distributed pamphlets said: "Palestinians are like the Philistines of old, newcomers who do not belong in the land, aliens planted on our soil which should clearly return to us."

One man introduced as Rabbi Chen presented his talk in points, also covered in pamphlets. First was "the sanctity of the People of Israel. He put it this way: he said while going in there, we should know there is no accounting for sins in this case." In other words, "whatever we do is fine."
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 10:48:29 PM
http://www.juancole.com/2012/10/creepy-israeli-planning-for-palestinian-food-insecurity-in-gaza-revealed.html

An Israeli human rights organization, Gisha, sued in Israeli courts to force the release of a planning document for 'putting the Palestinians on a diet' without risking the bad press of mass starvation, and the courts concurred. The document, produced by the Israeli army, appears to be a calculation of how to make sure, despite the Israeli blockade, that Palestinians got an average of 2279 calories a day, the basic need. But by planning on limiting the calories in that way, the Israeli military was actually plotting to keep Palestinians in Gaza (half of them children) permanently on the brink of malnutrition, what health professionals call "food insecurity". And, it was foreseeable that sometimes they would slip into malnutrition, since not as many trucks were always let in every day as the Israeli army recommended (106 were recommended, but it was often less in the period 2007-2010).

Planning for keeping people on the edge is nearly as bad as planning actually to starve them. A prudent person would know that a blockade is a blunt enough instrument, with shipments up and down in a given week, that such a policy would from time to time produce real misery. Were any physicians involved? They should be boycotted by the international community.

And, the Israeli army's way of trying to minimize the document must be the worst example of propaganda in history! They are saying that the plan was produced but not consulted. But this document aimed at making sure just enough trucks got in to keep people on the edge. If the government didn't consult it, does that mean it did not care if the food shipments slipped below the basic calorie allowance? Wouldn't it have been better if they had known about the 106-truck recommendation?

The food blockade had real effects. About ten percent of Palestinian children in Gaza under 5 have had their growth stunted by malnutrition.

A recent report [pdf] by Save the Children and Medical Aid for Palestinians found that, in addition, anemia is widespread, affecting over two-thirds of infants, 58.6 percent of schoolchildren, and over a third of pregnant mothers.

I mean, don't those figures make you want to do something for those mothers and children? Wouldn't they melt anyone's heart?


A UN Report out last month predicts that if Israel does not change its policies toward Gaza, the strip will be uninhabitable by 2020, when the population will likely be 2.1 million (think Houston).
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 20, 2012, 02:30:45 AM
Seafoid, seriously, Why do you hate jews..?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 20, 2012, 03:45:15 AM
Which rules of engagement do the Palestinians adhere to?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 20, 2012, 08:40:48 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 20, 2012, 03:45:15 AM
Which rules of engagement do the Palestinians adhere to?
Whataboutery isn't an acceptable defence in international law. Israel is obliged to follow the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of civilians in war and it doesn't do so.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 20, 2012, 08:54:06 AM
Mike Sheehy

Wonderful to see you back. Maybe some day you could actually make a point.

Did you know that the O Donovans in Gnieveguillia had a great grandmother from Gaza on the mother's side? She got married to an Ambrose O Donovan who was serving in the British Army in 1918 after the fall of the Ottoman empire. The wedding was in Beer Sheva. 

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 21, 2012, 01:26:58 PM
Hopefully before the end of the year, this documentary, "Shalom Belfast" will be shown on BBC. I was interviewed a couple of times for it, and didn't hold back on my views......

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/how-the-irish-view-the-israel-palestinian-conflict.premium-1.471003

How the Irish view the Israel-Palestinian conflict

In the first part of the documentary "Shalom Belfast?" the filmmaker Ithamar Handelman Smith comes to visit what he calls two of the shadier pubs in Belfast. Alongside the flags of the United Kingdom and of Northern Ireland, a number of Israeli flags are on display. They seem to generate great enthusiasm from the patrons.

"I was shot three times and blew up twice. They blew up my car and I lost a child at 5 years of age," relates one of the people at the bar, Steve Mailin. "They blew my car up, killed my child and it turned me nasty. Then I went to ..."

"To avenge [his death]?" asks the interviewer, and Mailin nods.

When Mailin is asked about the understanding the loyalist Protestants like himself in Northern Ireland evince for Israel, he explains: "The vast majority of that community could sympathize with Israel. Israel is an example for the rest of the world, and I think all Israelis are brilliant people ... I will die for Israel, if needed, not a problem. The only place that I can put close to my heart would be Israel, because it is oppressed, nobody likes them, and nobody likes us."

When Handelman Smith directs his camera at the other side - at extremist Catholics - their support is for the Palestinians. Extremists on both sides of the violent and long-standing conflict in Northern Ireland who choose to take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict repeatedly mention the similarities between the two hate-filled clashes.

"Shalom Belfast?" was screened last week at the Tel Aviv Cinematheque and will be broadcast tomorrow (Saturday evening ) on Channel 8. Israeli-born Handelman Smith, a journalist and writer, began working on the film, his first, three years ago when he moved to the capital of Northern Ireland. His wife got a job with the British Council there and he joined her.

"Ever since I was a child, I loved certain Irish bands, like the Pogues, and I romanticized Ireland," he related, in a recent interview in Tel Aviv. "I was interested in the idea of a Western European country that's still stuck in a civil war and a conflict that is somewhat reminiscent of our own conflict. I was interested in the idea that the Irish Catholics are like the 'Palestinians of Europe,' at least in their own mind: an occupied people, robbed of its land and rights, with very strong anti-British sentiments. But I also was anxious because I had never been there and it was clear to me that this place wouldn't be like it is in books and the records of my youth."

In July 2009, he left a broiling-hot Israeli summer and landed straight into a particularly chilly Irish day.

"We landed on July 11 and took a taxi through some especially tough neighborhoods. We saw all the graffiti and the flags and suddenly I was struck by the connection between this place and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I immediately realized there was something I needed to research."

Belfast was covered in flags that day, among them Israeli ones. Handelman Smith had arrived in the city on the day before the most important holiday for the Protestants in Ireland, Orangemen's Day: the day they celebrate King William of Orange's victory over his Catholic cousin King James II in 1690. The Protestants commemorate the occasion date by lighting bonfires and throwing into the flames effigies of the pope, flags of Catholic Ireland (the Republic of Ireland ) - and just to spice things up, some Palestinian flags.

Journalist and writer Handelman Smith, who was born in 1976, wrote and edited for the Israeli press from the time he was 17 years old, mostly focusing on cultural issues; he also published personal columns in Time Out and Akhbar Ha'ir. Over the years he also published four books: a novel, two collections of short stories and one book of poetry (under the name Itamar Ben Canaan ). When he decided to leave Israel and move to Ireland, his friend Aviv Giladi suggested making a film about the move.

"I have always been interested in making films," he said. "I studied cinema in high school and also a bit at the university. I wanted to make a film but I didn't know about what. The moment I landed in Belfast and saw Israeli flags flying in the street I contacted my [Israeli] producers and Channel 8 and told them I thought I had a film."

According to Handelman Smith, 70 percent of the funding for the film comes from British sources; the BBC supported the endeavor along with Channel 8. He relates that the British-American documentary filmmaker Louis Theroux was a main source of inspiration for him as he went out to meet with Irish extremists from both sides - people who range on a scale from hallucinatory to scary, he says. Situations that sometimes were reminiscent of Theroux's experiences among various marginal American sub-cultures arose.

Central figure

Handelman Smith says his intention was to make a straightforward, journalistic documentary and to avoid personal soul-searching. Nevertheless, he does figure prominently in the movie: He leads the documentary journey, converses with the interviewees, argues with them, eggs them on, laughs with them, spends time with them, drinks with them.

"True, I am at the center of the film," he admitted. "After all, I am not just a journalist ... I felt I was part of the story. I encounter [the people in] this story and the film is about how I see them. This is also the angle that interested the Britons who invested in the film. The foundations I applied to in Israel for support expected me to expose my own life, but I wasn't interested in that. Today I am doing everything I can to get away from the image I once had, of a person who is always probing himself. I am tired of it; it doesn't seem interesting to me any more."

He decided that the film would be a personal account of an Israeli filmmaker who comes to Belfast and encounters the strange phenomenon of how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is reflected in the local conflict. "I pondered a lot about how to build a story around this and in the end it was my wife, Julia Carolyn Ann [Handelman Smith], who gave me the idea: my own journey, in which I go back and forth between the extremes - and try to get everyone to like me."

He and his wife wrote the script together and devoted their whole first year in Belfast to research: "We traveled to every hole in Northern Ireland, we went around to scary pubs and looked for activists, figures whose lives we could follow."

Among the interviewees who appear are, among others, an Irish Protestant who says he feels like an Israeli, decides to convert to Judaism and dreams of moving to a West Bank settlement; a key activist in the Free Gaza movement in Northern Ireland; a Catholic who stands in the city squares wearing a keffiyeh and explaining the plight of the Palestinians; and the head of the "Protestant Messianic Peace Congregation," a church in a chilly coastal town where congregants sing songs in Hebrew, pray for the welfare of the State of Israel, its soldiers and police, and dream of moving one day to live in the Holy Land.

Handelman Smith admits that the encounters with extremists on both sides were sometimes unpleasant.

For example, the conversation with the Protestant paramilitary man Crazy Joe (the nickname for the Steve Mailin mentioned above ) was, he said, "a scary experience. Oddly enough in the Protestants' pubs - where there are supporters of Israel and people are sometimes wrapped in Israeli flags - that's where I felt more on edge. They are soccer hooligans and belong to the British National Front [the extreme right-wing party]: They hate blacks and Muslims and admire Israel because they see in it anti-Muslim might. At all those pubs, they asked me whether I had been in the army and had killed Arabs, and I admit I sometimes had to lie."

Another nerve-racking encounter was with Danny Boyle, a pro-Palestinian terrorist and former member of the Irish Republican Army, who spent 20 years in prison. "I knew he was an extremist, but I didn't know just how extreme. He was terribly violent in his speech. He said Israel had to be burned down and all the Zionists thrown out of there. I'm not a typical Israel who's not scared of anything, but Itai Lev [Handelman Smith's collaborator in the direction of the film] said to him, 'Don't talk that way. Either you talk like a human being or you leave us alone.' So Boyle asked, 'What do you want, to come to my home and drink tea?' And Itai said yes. I got nervous and I asked him in Hebrew, 'Are you crazy? They'll abduct us - this guy works with Hamas.'

"But Itai insisted and we did go to his home, in the scariest neighborhood in Londonderry, which is spookier than Belfast. In the end, only a very small bit of that conversation with him made it into the film. And a month and a half after we met with him, the guy went to prison because he was caught in a car carrying half-a-ton of explosives."

After his extensive investigative journey in Northern Ireland, we wondered, how does Handelman Smith explain the Catholics' extreme support for the Palestinians and the Protestants' backing for Israel?

"Glenn Peterson, an Irish writer I interview in the film, told me something nice," Handelman Smith replied. "When you live in a place like this [Northern Ireland], people look for a context for themselves. They want to think they are not the only ones stuck in a city that's split up according to religion and ethnic origin. They've found a parallel for themselves in Israel and Palestine, and thus feel some sort of identification with that issue.

"After the occupation in 1967, the Catholics became pro-Palestinian and there were close ties between the IRA and the Palestine Liberation Organization. So it's very clear - they really were partners to the Palestinian struggle. On the other side, the Protestants, many of whom are evangelical Christians, are by definition supporters of Israel for religious reasons. Peterson explains that ... in the Orange Lodges [an Irish Protestant fraternal organization], people believe they are descendants of one of the tribes of Israel, the lost 13th tribe. This feeling is embedded deep in their culture.

"Ultimately, Northern Ireland is a very small place, with a lot of madness, and in this sense it is also very similar to Israel," continued Handelman Smith. "In Israel we say there is hardly a single family that doesn't have someone who was wounded in a war or a terror attack. Well, it's that way there too - only there everything is on a smaller scale."

Did Handelman Smith know in advance what awaited him in Northern Ireland? "I knew but I also didn't know. I knew Northern Island is a place with a problematic past, but I also knew there is peace there - there's calm and normal life there ... [But] I was surprised to find that entire communities there are still engaged with their conflict, that there is lively activity surrounding it still. So that too, in fact, is exactly like here."
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: nifan on October 21, 2012, 02:16:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 19, 2012, 06:08:26 PM

And the poor who don't have the money to pay for food? Would everyone in a society have access to the same number of calories if less than 2300 is the average for the whole territory ? Mothers who are so weak they can't breastfeed their kids and have no money to pay for formula, for example.

10% of kids are stunted because of Israeli policy.

Israel is a disgrace.

First, I find Israels actions in gaza abhorrent. However this argument with the average calories helps nothing, as it is misreported at best.
the average as i said would be right for adults, but much of the poupulation would be a lot younger and therefore have less needs, easily countering the number of breastfeeding mothers who require what - 600 calories a day extra?
Are you also implying that wealthy palestinians are taking much more than they require and the poor are starving accordingly?

As I say, I dont know all the details here, and im not defending israel, but reporting the average calories above and saying this is just enough to keep them alive is false - 1800 a day average minimum given by  Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 22, 2012, 05:33:18 AM
For some Israelis, Gazans receive 2,279 calories too many

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/for-some-israelis-gazans-receive-2-279-calories-too-many.premium-1.471214

The closet is about to burst from the number of skeletons stuffed inside it. Occasionally one falls out, threatening to wake up complacent Israelis, until it's quickly pushed back inside, out of sight. But the skeletons are still there, deep in the closet, and they will continue to haunt Israelis for many years. One skeleton forced its way out last week: The Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories was forced to hand over its "Red Lines Report," of 2008, in which it calculated the minimum number of calories Gaza residents would need so as not to starve. This followed a successful three-and-a-half year legal battle by the Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement association. Amira Hass reported on the document, and Haaretz gave it the proper play as its lead story last Wednesday. Some parts of the document had already appeared in Haaretz in 2009, in a report by Uri Blau and Yotam Feldman.

In neither case, however, did the reports raise a storm. The country has plenty of ways (this newspaper being an exception) of burying skeletons deep in the closet so that Israelis shouldn't be overly disturbed. But the skeleton sticking out now belongs to a monster. The COGAT office insists that this was an "internal staff document" and a "working paper" that was never implemented. That's doubtful, but in any case the very fact that work was done and such a working paper was produced is disgusting.

Who came up with the idea of calculating the caloric intake for 1.5 million people under siege? What train of thought even gives Israel the right to enter the mouths and invade the stomachs of the people living under its jackboots? So now it's not just their bedrooms that are brutally broken into every night; now it's also their digestive system.

Even after the writing of this document, Israel continued to brazenly claim that the occupation of Gaza had ended. The very fact that such a document was composed, whether it was used or not, points to a satanic way of thinking. But the reason that army didn't want this document made public had nothing to do with its diabolical content. Nor did it fear a public storm, which it knew wasn't likely to happen in a country afflicted with blindness. The reason the Israel Defense Forces was reluctant to publicize this document was because it would make Israel look even worse in world opinion than it already does. It's a matter of image, you know; the goyim shouldn't find out. It's not nice for the goyim to know how low Israeli racism could sink. The document details the "model formulated by the Health Ministry - according to average Israeli consumption," and the IDF plan for the Palestinians, whose figures were "adjusted to culture and experience" in Gaza. The IDF, the new "Israel food association," knows how to distinguish between what types of foods enlightened types need, and what the savages and natives need. More fruits and vegetables for the enlightened, more sugar and oil for the savages. Since they are so humane, they took into account "'sampling' by toddlers under the age of 2," by adding another 34 tons of food a day as charity that would save them from death. Though the people at the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories made mathematical calculations, from time to time their resolve weakened: At the end of 2008 they approved the entry of shampoo into Gaza, but not conditioner; hummus, but not pine nuts. Imagine that.

Now that the document has been released, it's time to attach names to it. The government headed by Ehud Olmert was the one that in 2007 decided to restrict the entry of goods into Gaza even further. It tightened its grip in an effort to achieve the release of captured soldier Gilad Shalit and to bring down the Hamas regime, but this collective punishment, which is illegal under international law, achieved nothing. Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilna'i, a man of the Labor Party, Atzmaut and the Israel "left," approved the composition of the document. Maj. Gen. Amos Gilad was the Coordinator of Government Activities who ordered the policy to be translated into tables and statistics. Vilna'i and Gilad still serve in senior positions and enjoy public prestige; Olmert was tried on totally unrelated issues. War criminals? Are you kidding? That's a term reserved for Serbs and Congolese.

Of course, there are a lot of Israelis who believe that even the 2,279 daily calories that Israel in its great mercy approved for every Gazan is 2,279 calories too many. If you don't believe me, just ask them.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 07:52:58 AM
But the Palestinians are just peace loving tree huggers. They wouldn't hurt a fly.  :-X


Just this months rocket attacks on Israel. Although the majority of them don't cause injury, it's only a matter of time before they start to find their range.


October 1
According to the Israel Police, Palestinians fired a rocket into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[251]
October 4
In the evening, according to an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson, Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into the Ashkelon area.[252]
October 8
On the morning of the Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups fired more than 50 rockets and mortars into Israel. One of the rockets landed in a petting zoo in the Eshkol Regional Council, killing two goats and wounding nine other goats. A worker stated that the zoo was usually "packed with children" but was empty at the time because of the holiday. A residential building was also damaged, but no human injuries were reported. Israelis in the Eshkol Regional Council were instructed to remain in shelters for several hours. This marked the first time since June that Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, claimed responsibility for rocket attacks on Israel. The group's stated aim was vengeance against "Zionist crimes"; this was an allusion to an Israeli air strike the previous day against Muhammad Jerbi, a jihadist militant from Rafah, and Abdullah Mohamed Hassan Maqawi, a member of the The Mujahideen Shura Council of Jerusalem, a Gazan militant group.[253][254]
October 9
Palestinians fired 6 rockets into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks.
Around 6 am, a rocket was launched into the Eshkol Regional Council.[255]
In the afternoon, a Qassam rocket was fired into the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council.[256]
After nightfall, two Qassam rockets landed outside Sderot, and three Grad missiles landed outside Netivot.[255][257]

Israel responded with an air strike on an infiltration tunnel in the northern Gaza Strip.[258]
October 10
In the morning, Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council.[259] Another rocket exploded in an open area in the city of Netivot.[260] In the evening, a Grad missile was fired toward Netivot.[261] No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks. Israel responded with an air strike on a Hamas training camp, causing no injuries.[262]
October 12
Around 19:30, Palestinians from the Mujahideen Shura Council in the Environs of Jerusalem fired a Grad missile into Netivot, which exploded in the backyard of a family home. Shrapnel pierced the walls of the home and penetrated a child's bedroom. Though there were no physical injuries, two people were hospitalized for acute stress reaction. Israel responded with an air strike on two Mujahideen Shura Council terrorists riding a motorcycle in the northern Gaza Strip. One was killed and the other was injured.[263][264][265]
October 14
Palestinians fired two rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage. In a separate incident, Israeli forces targeted Palestinians terrorists as they were preparing to fire rockets into Israel, killing one and injuring another.[266]
October 16
Palestinians fired a rocket that landed near a home in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. The building was damaged and two people were treated for acute stress reaction. A second rocket landed in an open area in the Lachish Regional Council. Local residents were urged to stay close to bomb shelters. The attacks followed a threat against Israel by Sinai-based Salafist group Ansar Bayt al-Maqdes. Israel responded with an air strike on a base of Hamas' armed wing in the northern Gaza Strip, causing no injuries.[267][268][269]
October 17
Palestinian terrorists fired at least seven rockets into southern Israel, one of which struck a kindergarten. The building was damaged, but no one was in it at the time and no injuries were caused. The other rockets landed in open areas. Israel returned fire at the source of the rockets and hit some of the terrorists, according to Palestinian media.[270]
October 18
Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 08:45:23 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 21, 2012, 01:26:58 PM
Hopefully before the end of the year, this documentary, "Shalom Belfast" will be shown on BBC. I was interviewed a couple of times for it, and didn't hold back on my views......

Presumably you are an "extremist catholic"...

It sounds like another attempt at Hasbara
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 08:46:43 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 07:52:58 AM
But the Palestinians are just peace loving tree huggers. They wouldn't hurt a fly.  :-X


Just this months rocket attacks on Israel. Although the majority of them don't cause injury, it's only a matter of time before they start to find their range.


October 1
According to the Israel Police, Palestinians fired a rocket into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[251]
October 4
In the evening, according to an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson, Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into the Ashkelon area.[252]
October 8
On the morning of the Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups fired more than 50 rockets and mortars into Israel. One of the rockets landed in a petting zoo in the Eshkol Regional Council, killing two goats and wounding nine other goats. A worker stated that the zoo was usually "packed with children" but was empty at the time because of the holiday. A residential building was also damaged, but no human injuries were reported. Israelis in the Eshkol Regional Council were instructed to remain in shelters for several hours. This marked the first time since June that Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, claimed responsibility for rocket attacks on Israel. The group's stated aim was vengeance against "Zionist crimes"; this was an allusion to an Israeli air strike the previous day against Muhammad Jerbi, a jihadist militant from Rafah, and Abdullah Mohamed Hassan Maqawi, a member of the The Mujahideen Shura Council of Jerusalem, a Gazan militant group.[253][254]
October 9
Palestinians fired 6 rockets into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks.
Around 6 am, a rocket was launched into the Eshkol Regional Council.[255]
In the afternoon, a Qassam rocket was fired into the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council.[256]
After nightfall, two Qassam rockets landed outside Sderot, and three Grad missiles landed outside Netivot.[255][257]

Israel responded with an air strike on an infiltration tunnel in the northern Gaza Strip.[258]
October 10
In the morning, Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council.[259] Another rocket exploded in an open area in the city of Netivot.[260] In the evening, a Grad missile was fired toward Netivot.[261] No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks. Israel responded with an air strike on a Hamas training camp, causing no injuries.[262]
October 12
Around 19:30, Palestinians from the Mujahideen Shura Council in the Environs of Jerusalem fired a Grad missile into Netivot, which exploded in the backyard of a family home. Shrapnel pierced the walls of the home and penetrated a child's bedroom. Though there were no physical injuries, two people were hospitalized for acute stress reaction. Israel responded with an air strike on two Mujahideen Shura Council terrorists riding a motorcycle in the northern Gaza Strip. One was killed and the other was injured.[263][264][265]
October 14
Palestinians fired two rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage. In a separate incident, Israeli forces targeted Palestinians terrorists as they were preparing to fire rockets into Israel, killing one and injuring another.[266]
October 16
Palestinians fired a rocket that landed near a home in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. The building was damaged and two people were treated for acute stress reaction. A second rocket landed in an open area in the Lachish Regional Council. Local residents were urged to stay close to bomb shelters. The attacks followed a threat against Israel by Sinai-based Salafist group Ansar Bayt al-Maqdes. Israel responded with an air strike on a base of Hamas' armed wing in the northern Gaza Strip, causing no injuries.[267][268][269]
October 17
Palestinian terrorists fired at least seven rockets into southern Israel, one of which struck a kindergarten. The building was damaged, but no one was in it at the time and no injuries were caused. The other rockets landed in open areas. Israel returned fire at the source of the rockets and hit some of the terrorists, according to Palestinian media.[270]
October 18
Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.

The collective punishment of 1.5 million people is inconsistent with the moral principles of Judaism. The IRA bombed places in England but the catholics of NI were never denied access to food.
They were never bombed with white phosphorous either.



Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 22, 2012, 11:31:57 AM
Just another day at the office as Israel bomb the shit out of northern Gaza, killing 3 young men and injuring several others. Plus, they attacked a ship in international waters, kidnapping everyone on board, many of whom are European politicians.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 11:54:52 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 22, 2012, 11:31:57 AM
Just another day at the office as Israel bomb the shit out of northern Gaza, killing 3 young men and injuring several others. Plus, they attacked a ship in international waters, kidnapping everyone on board, many of whom are European politicians.


http://shiptogaza.se/en/Pressrum/Pressmeddelanden/human-consequence-blockade-true-story-pediatrician-henry-ascher

"As a pediatrician and a professor of public health, I strive against elements that limit people's right to health. In Gothenburg, this primarily means dealing with increasing social inequalities, ignorance concerning the needs of refugees and child refugees and limitations of the right to medical treatment of people not possessing identification papers. In other parts of the world, people are dying as a result of political decisions.
Let's call her Mona. She is 32 years old and a mother of 2 young children. She discovers two lumps in her breast. Soon she finds out that she has breast cancer. She gets an operation and begins chemotherapy—cytostatics—to kill the remaining cancer cells. She undergoes two treatments and, aside from the usual side effects of chemotherapy, everything goes well.
That's when the problems start.
At the hospital there is no medicine left and there isn't any to be found anywhere else. Why? Mona was born and lives in Gaza. Along with 1.6 million other people, most of whom are children, she lives on a small strip of land which is less than one third the size of Öland. For more than five years, Mona and all Gazans have been living under a land and sea blockade enforced by Israel. The import of goods is very restricted and many items are not allowed in at all. Essentially all exports have been halted.

For Mona this has become a question of life and death. She must receive cytostatics in the right amount at the right time in order for her healthy cells to have enough time to regenerate between treatments without the cancer cells having time to spread. She applies to have treatments at a hospital in Israel. Her application is approved and she applies for a permit to cross the Gazan border into Israel. When the day for her treatment arrives, she still has not received her permit to enter Israel. After the hospital puts some pressure on the Israeli authorities, Mona gets her permit some weeks later, but by that time her appointment at the hospital is long gone.
Eventually Mona is finally able to get her third treatment, but several months too late. When it is time for her fourth treatment, the whole charade begins again. She has to wait many months before she gets her fourth treatment. Finally she gives up.
At this point, Mona's breast cancer should be treated with radiation, but this is impossible—not because Gaza hospitals lack the competence, but because the radio-active substances that are needed are not allowed into Gaza.

After some months, Mona begins to get intense pain in her back. The doctors at the Gazan hospital suspect that her cancer has spread. They want to find out if they are right and to see if the new tumor can be removed, but this diagnostic examination, scintigraphy, requires a weak radio-active isotope, which Israel does not allow into Gaza.

Mona's story is told by Dr. Rebecka Gardell Abu Asba at a seminar about the health situation in Gaza at Karolinska University Hospital during Almedalen Week. Dr. Gardell Abu Asba met Mona during a visit to Gaza last spring. Unfortunately, Mona is not the only one in this situation. The blockade is often discussed in general political terms. It's about terrorism, Hamas, fundamentalism and rockets. Mona's story shows just one of the effects the blockade has on average Gaza citizens. Roughly 12,000 people have been denied travel to Israel for medical treatment. The lack of fuel is also taking a great toll on health care. Diseases also spread, because 90% of the drinking water is polluted and over 90 million liters of water a day run into the Mediterranean without adequate treatment. Why? The import of spare parts for the treatment plants is blocked.

When the Swedish doctor Rebecka Gardell Abu Asba meets Mona in Gaza, she knows that Mona will not live much longer. She is in severe pain, but she doesn't receive any real treatment for the pain. The medication she needs is not available, since its import is prohibited under the blockade.
I don't know if Mona is alive today, or if her two young children have become motherless, but I know that she might have had an 80% chance to be cured from her cancer under normal circumstances. Health care in Gaza is high quality and with modern-day breast cancer treatments, the prognosis is good.

Mona's story brings up many questions. Does access to cancer medicine constitute support for Hamas? Do painkillers for the dying equal support for terrorism? In what way does a block on building materials, which prevents the reconstruction of the schools and homes destroyed by Israel during Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009, reduce the risk of rocket attacks? And how can spare parts for water plants, sewage treatment plants and power plants be construed as a threat to Israel, one of the world's strongest military powers?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 08:46:43 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 07:52:58 AM
But the Palestinians are just peace loving tree huggers. They wouldn't hurt a fly.  :-X


Just this months rocket attacks on Israel. Although the majority of them don't cause injury, it's only a matter of time before they start to find their range.


October 1
According to the Israel Police, Palestinians fired a rocket into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[251]
October 4
In the evening, according to an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson, Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into the Ashkelon area.[252]
October 8
On the morning of the Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups fired more than 50 rockets and mortars into Israel. One of the rockets landed in a petting zoo in the Eshkol Regional Council, killing two goats and wounding nine other goats. A worker stated that the zoo was usually "packed with children" but was empty at the time because of the holiday. A residential building was also damaged, but no human injuries were reported. Israelis in the Eshkol Regional Council were instructed to remain in shelters for several hours. This marked the first time since June that Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, claimed responsibility for rocket attacks on Israel. The group's stated aim was vengeance against "Zionist crimes"; this was an allusion to an Israeli air strike the previous day against Muhammad Jerbi, a jihadist militant from Rafah, and Abdullah Mohamed Hassan Maqawi, a member of the The Mujahideen Shura Council of Jerusalem, a Gazan militant group.[253][254]
October 9
Palestinians fired 6 rockets into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks.
Around 6 am, a rocket was launched into the Eshkol Regional Council.[255]
In the afternoon, a Qassam rocket was fired into the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council.[256]
After nightfall, two Qassam rockets landed outside Sderot, and three Grad missiles landed outside Netivot.[255][257]

Israel responded with an air strike on an infiltration tunnel in the northern Gaza Strip.[258]
October 10
In the morning, Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council.[259] Another rocket exploded in an open area in the city of Netivot.[260] In the evening, a Grad missile was fired toward Netivot.[261] No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks. Israel responded with an air strike on a Hamas training camp, causing no injuries.[262]
October 12
Around 19:30, Palestinians from the Mujahideen Shura Council in the Environs of Jerusalem fired a Grad missile into Netivot, which exploded in the backyard of a family home. Shrapnel pierced the walls of the home and penetrated a child's bedroom. Though there were no physical injuries, two people were hospitalized for acute stress reaction. Israel responded with an air strike on two Mujahideen Shura Council terrorists riding a motorcycle in the northern Gaza Strip. One was killed and the other was injured.[263][264][265]
October 14
Palestinians fired two rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage. In a separate incident, Israeli forces targeted Palestinians terrorists as they were preparing to fire rockets into Israel, killing one and injuring another.[266]
October 16
Palestinians fired a rocket that landed near a home in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. The building was damaged and two people were treated for acute stress reaction. A second rocket landed in an open area in the Lachish Regional Council. Local residents were urged to stay close to bomb shelters. The attacks followed a threat against Israel by Sinai-based Salafist group Ansar Bayt al-Maqdes. Israel responded with an air strike on a base of Hamas' armed wing in the northern Gaza Strip, causing no injuries.[267][268][269]
October 17
Palestinian terrorists fired at least seven rockets into southern Israel, one of which struck a kindergarten. The building was damaged, but no one was in it at the time and no injuries were caused. The other rockets landed in open areas. Israel returned fire at the source of the rockets and hit some of the terrorists, according to Palestinian media.[270]
October 18
Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.

The collective punishment of 1.5 million people is inconsistent with the moral principles of Judaism. The IRA bombed places in England but the catholics of NI were never denied access to food.
They were never bombed with white phosphorous either.
Firing rockets into civilian areas with no guidance is against Islamic teachings.
Rejoicing in the slaughter of innocent children is against everything Islam teaches.
QuotePalestinians Hand Out Sweets in Celebration of Massacre of Jewish Family
March 12th, 2011 | Author: Un:dhimmi

Hey, let's celebrate our hero baby killer: Palestinian hands out sweets to Hamas policemen in Rafah

Islamic depravity hits bottom. Keeps digging:

Rafah residents hand out candy following massacre of Jewish family, three children in West Bank settlement of Itamar.

Gaza residents from the southern city of Rafah hit the streets Saturday to celebrate the terror attack in the West Bank settlement of Itamar where five family members were murdered in their sleep, including three children.

Residents handed out candy and sweets, one resident saying the joy "is a natural response to the harm settlers inflict on the Palestinian residents in the West Bank."

Meanwhile, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said he "clearly and firmly denounces the terror attack, just as I have denounced crimes against Palestinians.

"We are against all types of violence," Fayyad said during a tour in Bethlehem. "Our position has not changed. As we have said many times before, we categorically oppose violence and terror, regardless of the identity of the victims or the perpetrators."

IDF and security forces have been scouring the West Bank area since late Friday night, and have arrested 20 Palestinians from the villages of Awarta, Zababdeh, Sanur and Siliya. The IAF employed unmanned aerial vehicle in an effort to search for the suspects.

The Hamas movement accused the Palestinian Authority's security apparatus of arresting three of its activists near Qalqilya and Jenin.

"The report of five murdered Israelis is not enough to punish someone," said Hamas Spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhri, adding, "However; we in Hamas completely support the resistance against settlers who murder and use crime and terror against the Palestinian people under the auspices of the Israeli occupation soldiers."

A pamphlet distributed by the Islamic group said the PA also detained activists from Nablus, who were previously imprisoned and released.

According to an unverified report, Fatah's military wing – the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades – claimed responsibility for the attack. A group spokesman told a Palestinian news agency that a terror cell infiltrated the settlement of Itamar and committed the attack.



Grisly scene: home where the appalling hate crime took place

The spokesperson stressed that the attack "came as a response to Israel's continues hostile policy toward the Palestinian people."

'Give murderers death sentences'
Defense Minister Ehud Barak convened an evaluation session at the Defense Ministry offices in Tel Aviv following the attack. The meeting was attended by IDF Chief of Staff Benny Gantz and other military and intelligence officials.

Barak called on the leaders of Jewish settlements in the West Bank to act responsibly and urged the Palestinian leadership to denounce the attack.

Ron Nachman, mayor of the city of Ariel, arrived in Itamar Saturday noon and expressed anger over the government and defense minister's conduct.

"We need to find those behind the attack and give them the death penalty. I can't recall such a horrific terror attack," he said.

Nachman refused to comment on future "price tag" operations of radical rightist, saying: "I am not responsible for violent acts from either side."


Palestinian children are still made to 'celebrate' the Ramallah Lynchings today..

This degenerate, ghoulish behaviour, which almost defies belief is, in fact common practice by the Palestinians after murdering Israeli Jews.

The most well-known example was the Ramallah Lynching in 2000, where two IDF soldiers unfortunate to stray into the wrong area were killed and disembowelled in the streets by mobs of screaming Muslims.

To this day, the iconic image of the man holding up his blood-soaked hands to the crowd below him outside the police station where the slaughter took place, is still re-enacted by Palestinian children celebrating the event.

But we're willing to bet that the average American, German, Scandnavian or Brit is completely unaware of this practice.

Because, in the biased, single-narrative world of the mainstream media, the grisly details of these stories are invariably censored – BBC coverage of this story from today being a prime example.

Stripped of context, it was dressed up as an 'isolated incident' – standard procedure in the pro-Muslim, pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel British media. Had things been the other way around however, The BBC would have ensured that we never heard the end of it.

As usual though, they buried this story in the ME section of their website, whereas you can be take to the bank the fact that the slightest perceived transgression by Israel will always make the 'top stories' section on the front page.

The lauding of the killer on the al-Qassam webstes and elsewhere – and the street-party-like atmosphere and candy distribution in the disputed territories, will without doubt be buried in the West.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 02:56:02 PM
All you have is  bog standard hasbara.
The Palestinians are not human so  they can be degraded at will.

"This degenerate, ghoulish behaviour, which almost defies belief is, in fact common practice by the Palestinians after murdering Israeli Jews.The most well-known example was the Ramallah Lynching in 2000, where two IDF soldiers unfortunate to stray into the wrong area were killed and disembowelled in the streets by mobs of screaming Muslims".

They were shot in the head. I was in Ramallah at the time. By the time they made it onto the street they were dead.
The soldiers were must'arabeen, soldiers dressed as Palestinians and they were in town to kill someone. 

I seem to recall 2 British soldiers being killed after an incident at Milltown Cemetery in the 1980s but not even the BNP would class all Northern Irish catholics as degenerates.   

To this day, the iconic image of the man holding up his blood-soaked hands to the crowd below him outside the police station where the slaughter took place, is still re-enacted by Palestinian children celebrating the event.

Sounds just like the matzos soaked in the blood of Christian children that Der Sturmer used to mention.  Bullshit.

What is Israel going to do with all  of those unwanted Palestinians? that is the key question.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 03:08:49 PM
QuoteI seem to recall 2 British soldiers being killed after an incident at Milltown Cemetery in the 1980s but not even the BNP would class all Northern Irish catholics as degenerates.   
I recall it very well. They had a much more humane death than that of the soldiers in Ramallah.
Maybe we aren't all classed as degenerates because our children were never taught to rejoice in, and celebrate the barbaric murder of a human being, any human being. At least, not in our house.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 03:30:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 03:08:49 PM
QuoteI seem to recall 2 British soldiers being killed after an incident at Milltown Cemetery in the 1980s but not even the BNP would class all Northern Irish catholics as degenerates.   
I recall it very well. They had a much more humane death than that of the soldiers in Ramallah.
Maybe we aren't all classed as degenerates because our children were never taught to rejoice in, and celebrate the barbaric murder of a human being, any human being. At least, not in our house.

What a stupid argument.

Reminds me of this


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/aug/16/cauldron/?page=2

As desperate Viennese Jews increasingly failed to report to collection points, the Germans ordered the IKG "marshals"—the Viennese equivalent of ghetto police—to assist them in rounding up recalcitrant Jews, bringing them to the collection points, and guarding against any escape. Initially, Josef Löwenherz, the head of the IKG, refused to submit to this Nazi demand in November 1941, but the Nazis then recruited their own thugs to conduct the roundups in the most brutal manner, and Löwenherz relented so that "decent" people could be assigned to the task. As the continued exemption of the so-called "lifters" (Ausheber) depended upon total compliance and fulfillment of their assigned quotas, not surprisingly those being deported did not think their actions "decent."

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 03:48:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 03:30:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 03:08:49 PM
QuoteI seem to recall 2 British soldiers being killed after an incident at Milltown Cemetery in the 1980s but not even the BNP would class all Northern Irish catholics as degenerates.   
I recall it very well. They had a much more humane death than that of the soldiers in Ramallah.
Maybe we aren't all classed as degenerates because our children were never taught to rejoice in, and celebrate the barbaric murder of a human being, any human being. At least, not in our house.

What a stupid argument.

Reminds me of this


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/aug/16/cauldron/?page=2

As desperate Viennese Jews increasingly failed to report to collection points, the Germans ordered the IKG "marshals"—the Viennese equivalent of ghetto police—to assist them in rounding up recalcitrant Jews, bringing them to the collection points, and guarding against any escape. Initially, Josef Löwenherz, the head of the IKG, refused to submit to this Nazi demand in November 1941, but the Nazis then recruited their own thugs to conduct the roundups in the most brutal manner, and Löwenherz relented so that "decent" people could be assigned to the task. As the continued exemption of the so-called "lifters" (Ausheber) depended upon total compliance and fulfillment of their assigned quotas, not surprisingly those being deported did not think their actions "decent."
How the hell do you equate what I posted to that garbage you just spewed out. You have some seriously fu**ed up thinking there fella.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 03:48:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 22, 2012, 03:30:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 03:08:49 PM
QuoteI seem to recall 2 British soldiers being killed after an incident at Milltown Cemetery in the 1980s but not even the BNP would class all Northern Irish catholics as degenerates.   
I recall it very well. They had a much more humane death than that of the soldiers in Ramallah.
Maybe we aren't all classed as degenerates because our children were never taught to rejoice in, and celebrate the barbaric murder of a human being, any human being. At least, not in our house.

What a stupid argument.

Reminds me of this


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/aug/16/cauldron/?page=2

As desperate Viennese Jews increasingly failed to report to collection points, the Germans ordered the IKG "marshals"—the Viennese equivalent of ghetto police—to assist them in rounding up recalcitrant Jews, bringing them to the collection points, and guarding against any escape. Initially, Josef Löwenherz, the head of the IKG, refused to submit to this Nazi demand in November 1941, but the Nazis then recruited their own thugs to conduct the roundups in the most brutal manner, and Löwenherz relented so that "decent" people could be assigned to the task. As the continued exemption of the so-called "lifters" (Ausheber) depended upon total compliance and fulfillment of their assigned quotas, not surprisingly those being deported did not think their actions "decent."
How the hell do you equate what I posted to that garbage you just spewed out. You have some seriously f***ed up thinking there fella.

I do apologise if it went above your head.


Was it really humane to murder 2 British soldiers who were cornered by a mob? Were they put to sleep by injection after a cup of tea ?   Did they really have to die? Was this explained to them? Did they give their consent?

And barbarism is about what Israel is doing to Gaza. As Gideon Levy said about the calories document

The reason the Israel Defense Forces was reluctant to publicize this document was because it would make Israel look even worse in world opinion than it already does. It's a matter of image, you know; the goyim shouldn't find out. It's not nice for the goyim to know how low Israeli racism could sink.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 04:06:24 PM
Sorry, did I miss the bit in the papers about Derek Wood and David Howes having their intestines ripped from their bodies? No. They were beaten and shot. I don't want to lessen the horror of their murder, but you just can't compare the two in their brutality.

Oh, and Gideon Levy. That well know apologist for Hamas.  ::)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 22, 2012, 04:15:21 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 04:06:24 PM


Oh, and Gideon Levy. That well know apologist for Hamas.  ::)

Seafoid, we have a troll on patrol. Ignore his hasbara.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 05:44:36 PM
QuoteGideon Levy is a fastidious journalist, one, I do believe, who would never knowingly publish an untruth. And yet, again, I have to quote the old "People in glass houses ...." cliché. For while Levy scrupulously seeks the truth, it is almost never the whole truth. In his inexplicable and anguished race to write and print anything that will show Israel in a bad light, Levy usually manages to leave out of his stories the redeeming features that might throw a different light on Israel. We want the truth, the WHOLE truth ... . And there Levy has failed us, time and time again.

http://www.propagandistmag.com/2012/10/16/revolting-lies-and-truth-about-gideon-levy (http://www.propagandistmag.com/2012/10/16/revolting-lies-and-truth-about-gideon-levy)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 08:14:26 PM
Russia to the rescue?

Thursday, October 18, 2012 | Ryan Jones


Israel was spared yet more condemnation by the United Nations on Wednesday not by its usual benefactor, the United States, but rather by Russia, which traditionally sides with the Jewish state's Arab antagonists.

At the current gathering of the United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) in Paris, the world body was to vote on three Arab resolutions proposed by Jordan, the Palestinian Authority and Syria. All three resolutions charged Israel with abuse of local Arab populations and Muslim-claimed territories.

Most prominent was the resolution submitted by Jordan accusing Israel of trying to "change the character of Jerusalem" and blasting the prospect of allowing Jews to pray atop the Temple Mount.

Islamic authorities like to claim that the Jews have no historical or religious ties to Jerusalem's Temple Mount, and therefore reject the idea that Jews should have any reason to pray there.

All three Arab entities were surprised when Russia insisted that a vote on the resolutions be postponed for at least six months, and that instead a fact-finding mission be sent to Jerusalem to determine if the Jordanian accusations are accurate. The Russians said Israel is under no obligation to agree to host such a mission.

Last November, UNESCO became the first major world body to officially recognize "Palestine" as an independent state. It is little wonder that it has now become a primary venue for de-legitimizing Israel.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23437/Default.aspx (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23437/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 08:18:43 PM
A brave Arab woman stands up for Israel


Friday, October 19, 2012 | Ryan Jones



The Times of Israel has published a fascinating interview with a brave young Arab woman from a small town in the Galilee region who has dedicated her life to defending Israel in the public arena.

Boshra Khalaila is hardly the only Israeli Arab to speak out on behalf of her country, and her own story is very representative of the hurdles many Israeli Arabs must overcome if they wish to freely speak their mind regarding the Jewish state.

But some simply cannot remain silent any longer.

"I am a liberal, free woman, with all the rights that I could enjoy," stated Khalaila. "I compare myself to other women my age in Jordan, the [Palestinian ruled] territories, Egypt, any Arab country. They don't have the rights that I have: freedom of expression, the right to vote. They are forced into marriage at a young age, and religious head covering, despite their own convictions. With me it's the opposite; I have everything."


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23440/Default.aspx (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23440/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 08:24:31 PM

IDF Escorts Medical Equipment to Gaza

The IDF escorts safe passage for foreign aid to Hamas-controlled Gaza, days after it stopped a ship trying to break the maritime blockade.



By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 10/22/2012, 9:24 AM




New ambulances donated by the German Red Cross on their way to Gaza

Israel news photo: IDF


The IDF continues to escort and provide safe passage for foreign aid to Hamas-controlled Gaza, days after stopping a ship trying to break the maritime blockade. After the boat named "Estelle" was guided to the port of Ashdod, military inspectors discovered that all that was on board the ship were activists, but no aid.

Israel has blocked contributions to Gaza via the Mediterranean Sea to prevent smuggling for terrorists and weapons. The IDF supervises and escorts donations through Gaza land crossings, as it did this week when Germany delivered three new ambulances and medical equipment.

COGAT representatives and officers from the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration worked with Red Cross officials to coordinate the donation from the German branch of the Red Cross. 

The donated medical equipment included long and short spinal boards, foldable stretchers, stair compatible wheel chairs, stethoscopes, finger pulse oxymeters, electrical thermometers and CPR manikins.

COGAT is a unit within the IDF responsible for the transport of aid into both the Judea and Samaria region and Gaza.

It works with the Coordination and Liaison Administration of Gaza and the Civil Administration in Judea and Samaria to facilitate the transfer of supplies including gas, building materials, electrical appliances, ceramic parts, hygienic products, wheat and other foods.

The alleged land blockade does not exist except for materials that can be directly used for terrorist activities, such as assembling rockets.

After years of claims from Hamas that Gaza is facing an "imminent" humanitarian disaster, the United Nations declared two years ago that no such situation exists.

Under the Hamas regime, the gap between rich and poor has grown. Hamas controls commerce and heavily taxes operators of smuggling tunnels, whose profits have enabled them to become multi-millionaires.

Last week, there was a rush in Gaza for new iPhones, and previous Arutz Sheva reports have documented opulent restaurants and malls throughout the Gaza region


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161181 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161181)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 22, 2012, 08:34:33 PM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161102 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161102)




Qatari Fuel to Enter Gaza Through Israel

Israel allow will fuel donated by Qatar to be pumped into Gaza via the Kerem Shalom crossing, says PA official.


AAFont Size
By Elad Benari
First Publish: 10/19/2012, 6:41 AM




Kerem Shalom crossing

Flash 90


Despite ongoing rocket attacks by Gaza-based terrorists at southern Israel, Israel will allow fuel donated by Qatar to be pumped into Gaza via an Israeli crossing starting on Sunday.

The information was disclosed by a Palestinian Authority official who spoke to the Bethlehem-based Ma'an news agency on Thursday.

Delivery of Qatari fuel began in July, Ma'an reported, but was cut off after a border attack on Egyptian officers on August 5.

The official, Nazmi Muhanna, told the news agency that fuel supplies will resume Sunday after delivery from Egypt and through the Israeli Kerem Shalom crossing into Gaza.

Gaza still faces up to eight hours without electricity per day, the report said. The power crisis began in mid-February, when Egypt cut off supplies via a tunnel network running under its border with Gaza.

After the August killing of 16 Egyptian border guards, Egypt moved to close more of the tunnels which are sometimes used to smuggle terrorists and weapons between Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula.

Israel has continued to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza despite the fact that it is being ruled by Hamas terrorists and despite the never ending rocket attacks being launched from the region.

On Wednesday, Israel's Foreign Ministry publicized a series of Israeli measures to improve the Palestinian Authority economy, currently facing the worst crisis since its 1994 establishment.

These measures help both the PA-assigned areas of Judea and Samaria as well as Gaza. Israel has approved internationally funded and monitored projects in Gaza. Since 2011, 235 projects have been approved. In September 2012 alone, 16 new projects were approved.

Trade has expanded between Gaza and Judea and Samaria, noted the Foreign Ministry. Before the new school year began, three truckloads of furniture for schools in Judea and Samaria were transferred from Gaza.

Israel has also supported the private sector in Gaza, and has approved the transfer of raw materials for private sector construction, including roof tiles, building stones, dry wall, mosaics, adhesives, plaster, etc.

In addition to all of the above, the communication channels between Israel and the PA's Ministry of Health have been maintained in recent years, despite Hamas' violent takeover of Gaza in 2007. As part of this communication Israeli doctors have more than once helped save the lives of PA Arabs from Gaza who came to receive treatment in Israeli hospitals.

Angry at the PA-Israel cooperation, Hamas has prevented the transfer of Gaza patients to hospitals in Israel.

Despite all the assistance Israel provides to PA Arabs, both Hamas as well rival Fatah leaders constantly blame Israel for their economic woes.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 23, 2012, 10:45:46 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid-regime-in-israel.premium-1.471644#

Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.


Spin that
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 23, 2012, 02:22:35 PM
Legendary US linguistics professor and political critic Noam Chomsky called on the Palestinians to uphold their rights and never give up hope to restore them despite all odds and colonial plots being hatched against them.

Chomsky made his remarks on Sunday in a lecture he delivered on the second day of the international conference on languages and literature at the Islamic university in Gaza.

The American professor also stated that the western powers see the Palestinians as people with no rights because the Palestinians do not have resources or influence to give to them, so relying on such powers to get their rights and liberate their land is useless.

He also hailed the Arab nations for revolting against their tyrants and said their uprisings reflected their desire for freedom and liberation from repressive regimes serving the interests of western colonial powers at their expense.

Chomsky was awarded an honorary doctorate degree by the Islamic university in Gaza in appreciation of his positions in support of the Palestinian cause.

In a related context, Palestinian premier Ismail Haneyya met with US professor Noam Chomsky in his cabinet office and talked with him about a number of issues in the Palestinian arena.

Haneyya hailed Chomsky for his courageous positions in support of the Palestinian people and their rights and honored him for his great efforts.

http://www.alresalah.ps/en/index.php?act=post&id=1276
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 23, 2012, 02:46:00 PM
http://www.e-flux.com/journal/the-least-of-all-possible-evils/

Israel's bombing and invasion of Gaza in the winter of 2008–9 marked the culmination of its violence against the Palestinians since the Nakba of 1948, and resulted in widespread international allegations that Israel had committed war crimes. It was also the assault in which Israeli experts in international humanitarian law—the area of the law that regulates the conduct of war—were more involved than ever before. Since the 2006 Lebanon War, the Israeli military has become increasingly mindful of its exposure to international legal action. Preparations for the next conflict included those in the domain of law, and new "legal technologies" were introduced into military matters.

This development gives rise to a series of related questions. Might it be that these legal technologies contributed not to the containment of violence but to its proliferation? That the involvement of military lawyers did not in fact restrain the attack—but rather, that certain interpretations of international humanitarian law have enabled the inflicting of unprecedented levels of destruction? In other words, has the making of this chaos, death, and destruction been facilitated by the terrible force of the law?

In more domains than one, the elastic and porous border has become the contemporary pathology of Israel's regime of control. It manifests itself in a variety of ways—one such being the elasticity that military lawyers identify and mobilize in interpreting the laws of war.

The laws of war pose a paradox to those protesting in their name: while they prohibit some things, they authorize others. And thus a line is drawn between the "allowed" and the "forbidden." This line is not stable and static; rather, it is dynamic and elastic and its path is ever changing. An intense battle is conducted over its route. Much like the route of the separation wall, the thresholds of the law will be pulled and pushed in different directions by those with different objectives. The question hinges on which side of the legal/illegal divide a certain form of military practice falls. International organizations such as the UN and the ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross), large NGOs and human rights groups, and also some highly regarded academic authorities on international humanitarian law have the means to push the line in one direction—to place controversial military practices on the prohibited side—while state militaries and their apologists seek to push it in the opposite direction. International law can thus not be thought of as a static body of rules but rather an arena in which the law is shaped by an endless series of diffused border conflicts.

According to Eitan Diamond, the legal scholar and adviser for the ICRC in Israel, "the architecture of international humanitarian law is typified by 'rigid lines of absolute prohibition' and 'elastic zones of discretion.'" The rigid prohibitions are derived, he states, from the law's origins in the nineteenth century, "a time when legal thought was dominated by a positivist-formalist approach that conceived of law as a closed system distinguished from politics and ethics." Today, he fears, "states and their advocates are using arguments based on the logic of the 'lesser evil' to subvert the law's absolute provisions and to subject them to malleable cost-benefit calculations."20 Diamond and the ICRC—allergic to the "creativity" of state lawyers—would prefer to see a more rigid legal structure and absolute prohibitions. A deontological legal system demanding the strict application of the law is useful in the kind of backroom discussions the ICRC is involved in with the military.

New frontiers of military practice are being explored via a combination of legal technologies and complex institutional practices that are now often referred to as "lawfare"—the use of law as a weapon of war. Lawfare is a compounded practice: with the introduction and popularization of international law in contemporary battlefields, all parties to a conflict might seek to use it for their tactical and strategic advantage. The former American colonel and military judge Charles Dunlap, who was credited with the introduction of this term in 2001, suggested that "lawfare" can be defined as "the strategy of using—or misusing—law as a substitute for traditional military means to achieve an operational objective."21 In the hands of non-state actors, Dunlap says, the "lawfare effect" is created by an interaction between guerrilla groups that "lure militaries to conduct atrocities" and human rights groups that engage in advocacy to expose these atrocities, and who use whatever available means for litigation they have. In a similar vein, Israel now often claims that it faces an unprecedented campaign of lawfare, which threatens to undermine the very legitimacy of the state. Lawfare is used tactically by state militaries themselves. In this context, it refers to the multiple ways by which contemporary warfare is conditioned, rather than simply justified, by international law.22 In both cases, international law and the systems of courts and tribunals that exercise and enact it are not conceived as spaces outside the conflict, but rather as battlegrounds internal to it.

It is within the "elastic zones of discretion" that Israeli military lawyers find enormous potential for the expansion of military action. Daniel Reisner, a former chief international lawyer for the Israeli military, argued that because international humanitarian law is not so much a code-based legal system but a precedent-based legal corpus, state practice can continuously shift it.

International law is a customary law that develops through an historic process. If states are involved in a certain type of military activity against other states, militias, and the like, and if all of them act quite similarly to each other, then there is a chance that this behavior will become customary international law.23

It is in this sense that international law develops through its violation. In modern war, violence legislates: "If the same process occurred in criminal law, the legal speed limit would be 115 kilometres an hour and income tax would be 4 per cent."24

Reisner is proud to have been the first international lawyer to have defended, at the request of then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak, the policy of "targeted assassinations" towards the end of 2000, when most governments and international bodies considered the practice illegal. "We invented the targeted assassination thesis and we had to push it. At first there were protrusions that made it hard to insert easily into the legal molds. Eight years [and, as he subsequently said in this interview—by way of reference to 9/11—'four planes'] later it is in the center of the bounds of legitimacy."25

Asa Kasher, a professor of ethics at Tel Aviv University, has worked with Reisner to provide an ethical and legal defense for targeted assassination. He talks in similar terms about the nature of law and the ways in which it might be transformed:


We in Israel have a crucial part to play in the developing of this area of the law [international humanitarian law] because we are at the forefront of the war against terror, and [the tactics we use] are gradually becoming acceptable in Israeli and in international courts of law ... The more often Western states apply principles that originated in Israel to their own non-traditional conflicts in places like Afghanistan and Iraq, then the greater the chance these principles have of becoming a valuable part of international law. What we do becomes the law.26

After the Goldstone fact-finding mission on Gaza, Israel's prime minister emphatically called for a radical rewriting of international humanitarian law. "Paradoxically," Netanyahu said, "it is possible that the firm response of important international leaders and jurists to [the Goldstone report] will accelerate the re-examination of the laws of war in an age of terror." His minister of defense, Ehud Barak, added: "We cannot change the law but we can help develop it."

The actions of the Israeli state against Gaza may become acceptable in law. The siege— ongoing since 2007—the 2008–9 invasion, and the 2009 attack on an international flotilla carrying supplies into the enclave have all been carried out with relative impunity, and do not appear to have significantly affected Israel's international standing. Each of these forms of aggression contains within it a multiplicity of small-scale practices and incidents: restricting the supply of food to the point of starvation; targeted assassinations; sending advance warnings that then allow the military to kill those civilians who choose not to evacuate;27 attacks on activists in international waters; the use of white phosphorus in inhabited areas—the list goes on. In these acts—if Israeli lawyers have their way—lie the seeds of new legislation.

Working at the margins of the law is one way to expand them. For violence to have the power to legislate, it needs to be applied in the grey, indeterminate zone between obvious violation and possible legality, and then to be defended diplomatically and by legal opinion. Indeed, the legal tactics sanctioned by military lawyers in Israel's invasion of Gaza in 2008–9 were framed in precisely this way. "When something's in the white zone, I'll let it be done, if it's in the black I'll forbid it, but if it's in the grey zone then I'll take part in the dilemma, I don't stop at grey," said Reisner. Proportionality might indeed be thought of as one of the mechanisms for reshaping juridical space in a way that increases and makes use of the grey zone.

The invasion therefore did two simultaneous and seemingly paradoxical things: it both violated the law and shifted its thresholds. This kind of violence not only transgresses but also attacks the very idea of rigid limits. In this circular logic, the illegal turns legal through continuous violation. There is indeed a "law-making character" inherent in military violence. This is law in action, legislative violence as seen from the perspective of those who write it in practice.

This use of the law has much in common with that of the George W. Bush Administration's misappropriation of the Office of Special Counsel in the Justice Department, in order to figure out a way to legalize the use of torture. Inherent in this was the clear intention to stretch the law as far as possible without actually breaking it.28 In this example, US Department of Justice attorney John Yoo used the balancing of interests to authorize certain forms of torture. His famous torture memos were grounded in an Israeli precedent: relying on what is essentially a proportionality analysis, the 1987 Israeli commission of inquiry into the methods of investigation in the General Security Service (the Landau Commission) arrived at the conclusion that the prohibition on torture is not absolute, but is rather based "upon the logic of the lesser evil."

Thus, "the harm done by violating a provision of the law during an interrogation must be weighed against the harm to the life or person of others which could occur sooner or later."29 Some legal scholars have suggested that Yoo's legal advice in itself might be considered a crime.

Similar lines of legal argument are inspired by a strand of legal scholarship known as "critical legal studies," an approach that emerged together with other post-structuralist discourses at the end of the 1980s. Critical legal studies scholars aimed to expose the way the law is made—the workings of power in the making and enactment of law—to challenge law's normative account and to offer an insight into its internal contradictions and indeterminacies. It was, broadly speaking, a critical, left-leaning practice, which attempted to deploy law at the service of a socially transformative agenda. But when international law stands as an obstacle in the way of state militaries, it is easy to see why military lawyers would adopt the attitude of those scholars seeking to challenge rigid definitions and expose the law as an object of critique and contestation. Today, when the creative interpretation of the law is exercised by state and military lawyers, it is primarily human rights and antiwar activists who insist on the dry letter of the law.

The appeal, by military lawyers, to international humanitarian law to justify wars could easily be dismissed as cynical propaganda. Most human rights groups have correctly pointed out that international humanitarian law was not properly observed in Gaza, in the sense that it was used too permissively. Evidence and testimonies, including those of soldiers, collected by the Goldstone investigation and human rights groups reveal in baroquely nightmarish details some of the most gruesome and egregious violations. There were about twenty reported instances of Israeli soldiers firing at women and children carrying white flags; reports of the denial of medical aid and ambulances for wounded Palestinians, who bled to death; the wanton destruction of homes and neighborhoods; the use of white phosphorus—and more besides.30 But in the age of lawfare, the elastic nature of the law, and the power of military action to stretch it, those appealing for justice in the name of the law need to be aware of its double edge.

Gaza, in this sense, is a laboratory in more than one sense. It is a hermetically sealed zone, with all access controlled by Israel (except the border with Egypt). Within this enclosed space, all sorts of new control technologies, munitions, legal and humanitarian tools, and warfare techniques are tried out on its million-and-a-half inhabitants. The ability to remotely control large populations is also tested, before these technologies are marketed internationally. Most significantly of all, it is the thresholds that are tested and pushed: the limits of the law, and the limits of violence that can be inflicted by a state and be internationally tolerated. This limit, newly defined with every attack, will become the new threshold of what can be done to people in the name of the War on Terror. When the legislative violence directed at Gaza unlocks the chaotic powers of destruction that lie dormant within the law, the consequence will be felt by oppressed people everywhere.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 23, 2012, 10:02:29 PM
Another 2 Palestinian men have just been murdered by Israel in Gaza, making it 5 in the past 24 hours.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 07:07:39 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 23, 2012, 10:02:29 PM
Another 2 Palestinian men have just been murdered by Israel in Gaza, making it 5 in the past 24 hours.
Were these 2 murdered men in the middle of firing rockets into Israel by any chance?

Quote
IAF Strikes in Gaza Three Times in One Night

IAF aircraft hit Gaza-based terror squads three times in one night, following continuous rocket fire.


AAFont Size
By Elad Benari
First Publish: 10/24/2012, 1:02 AM / Last Update: 10/24/2012, 6:15 AM




IAF Counterstrike (Gaza)

Flash 90


IAF aircraft struck a terror squad in southern Gaza early Wednesday morning, as it was preparing to fire a rocket at southern Israel, the IDF announced in a statement.

The statement said that a direct hit at the terrorists was identified. It was the third time in one night that the IDF retaliated against the ongoing rocket attacks by Gaza terrorists at southern Israel.

Shortly after midnight, on Tuesday night, IAF aircraft targeted a terror squad in northern Gaza, as it was making final preparations to launch a rocket at southern Israel.

According to a statement by the IDF Spokesperson's Unit, a direct hit was identified at the terrorists and the rocket attack was thwarted.

"The IDF will not tolerate any attempt to harm Israeli citizens and IDF soldiers and will continue to operate against anyone who operates terror against Israel," said the statement.

This air strike took place about an hour and a half after another terror squad was hit as it was preparing to launch rockets at Israel. In this attack, as well, direct hits were identified.

The air strikes came after terrorists from Gaza fired seven rockets at Israel earlier in the evening. The rockets came in three rounds – with one round landing in one town in the Eshkol Regional Council, a second round landing in another town, and the third round landing in an open area.

No one was injured and no damaged was reported in any of the attacks.

Tuesday night's attacks were a continuation of what appeared to be an escalating deterioration of the security situation in southern Israel.

An IDF officer was wounded Tuesday morning when an explosive device blew up during an IDF exercise in the Gaza border area. The officer was flown by helicopter to Soroka Hospital in Be'er Sheva, where he was declared by doctors to be in serious condition, with his life in danger. The officer's condition was little-changed Tuesday night.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161272 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161272)

Quote
Three Wounded in Massive Rocket Barrage on South

Hamas and allied terrorists pummeled southern Israel with more than 30 rocket attacks Wednesday morning. Three wounded.


AAFont Size
By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 10/24/2012, 7:27 AM




Kassam  rockets

Israel news photo: Flash 90



Hamas and allied terrorist groups take to heart the Qatari emir's call for "resistance" and pummeled southern Israel with more than 30 rockets, wounding three people and scoring direct hits on three homes.

The Iron Dome system operated shortly after 7 a.m. to down rockets headed towards the port city of Ashkelon.

Hamas appears to be trying to prove that its rocket launching capability is stronger than IDF counterterrorist operations that are able to target terrorists when caught in the act of preparing to launch Kassam missiles.

The latest attacks came less than a day after the visiting emir of oil-rich Qatar incited Gaza residents by saying during his visit, "There is no clear strategy of resistance and liberation" in the absence of peace talks, which both Hamas and its rival faction Fatah have boycotted.

The Air Force struck Gaza three times overnight Tuesday and early Wednesday after terrorists from Gaza fired seven rockets at Israel earlier in the evening. The rockets came in three rounds – with one round landing in one town in the Eshkol Regional Council, a second round landing in another town, and the third round landing in an open area.

Tuesday night's attacks were a continuation of what appeared to be an escalating deterioration of the security situation in southern Israel.

An IDF officer was wounded Tuesday morning when an explosive device blew up during an IDF exercise in the Gaza border area. The officer was flown by helicopter to Soroka Hospital in Be'er Sheva, where he was declared by doctors to be in serious condition, with his life in danger. The officer's condition was little-changed Tuesday night.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161277 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161277)

Maybe they were just celebrating Halloween a bit early, with some extra special fireworks. I think I'll save my sympathy for those who deserve it, the innocent.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 07:37:31 AM
Harriet Sherwood cherry picks results of poll to smear Israel with 'apartheid' label

Harriet Sherwood's latest report, Oct. 23, contains a dramatic headline, 'Israeli poll finds majority in favor of 'apartheid' policies.

The highlights of the poll reported by Sherwood, and based on a Ha'aretz article by Gideon Levy which cited the results of polling conducted by a group called Dialog, are as follows: (Graph from Ha'aretz)



Critical omission by Sherwood on the findings:

Here's the opening passage of Sherwood's story:


"More than two-thirds of Israeli Jews say that 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank should be denied the right to vote if the area was annexed by Israel, in effect endorsing an apartheid state..." [emphasis added]

However, Sherwood failed to acknowledge that only 38 percent of the Jewish public wants Israel to annex the territories with settlements on them in the first place, which is arguably the most important stat, as many of the subsequent questions, such as the one highlighted by Sherwood, pertain to a scenario where such annexation occurs. The fact that a majority of Israelis do not express support for annexation renders the subsequent questions extremely less meaningful, and her conclusion about Israeli support for 'apartheid' dishonest.

A few additional observations.
•The sample size of the Dialog poll is 503 (out of a Jewish population of over 6 million), which is problematic. Further, since there is no link to the full poll it's not possible to judge the methodology.
•Levy admits that "the survey conductors said that the term 'apartheid' "was not clear enough to some interviewees", which may explain the following additional quote by Levy about the results: "39 percent believe apartheid is practiced "in a few fields"; 19 percent believe "there's apartheid in many fields" and 11 percent do not know."  Further, it's unclear how 'apartheid' – widely understood as a systemic policy of separation based on race – could be characterized as a dynamic localized in certain fields. It seems possible that Israelis were expressing their belief that "discrimination" occurs in certain fields, which is a far different phenomenon than 'apartheid'.
•Sherwood writes that "58% believe Israel already practices apartheid against Palestinians", a number, it seems, based on Levy's report, cited above.  As I noted in the previous bullet, this is extremely problematic conclusion, based on what may be an unclear understanding of what the word 'apartheid' meant in the context it was being used.

Palestinian Context

The most glaring omission by Sherwood is her broader failure, in this or other reports alleging Israeli racism, to provide similar data indicating the political views of Palestinians.  This is part of a larger problem within the Guardian's coverage of the region, which consistently fails to rigorously examine Palestinian society and mores.

As such, the following Palestinian poll results should at least serve to provide a bit of context to contrast the recent polling on Israelis.
•51% support the August 2010 Hamas attack on settlers near Hebron that resulted in the death of four settlers? (PCPSR, October 2010)

•54% support armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel? (Harry Truman Research Institute/PCPSR, March 1-7, 2009

• 64% support launching rockets from the Gaza Strip against Israeli towns and cities such as Sderot and Ashkelon? (Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, March 13-15, 2008)

•84% support the bombing attack that took place in a religious school in West Jerusalem in 2008. (Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, March 13-15, 2008)

•60% of Palestinians eventually hope that one state − Palestine − will replace the Jewish state. Only 23 percent of Palestinians said they believed in Israel's right to exist as the national homeland of the Jews.  (Based on a poll in 2010)

•Only 4% of Palestinians have a favorable view of Jews. (Pew Global, 2011)

•47.5% of Palestinians still support terrorist attacks inside pre-1967 Israel. (2012 PSR Survey)

•73% of Palestinians "believe" the Islamic Hadith that preaches it is Islamic destiny to kill Jews. (2011 poll)

Of course, there is as good of a chance Sherwood would report these disturbing findings about Palestinian racism, support for violence, and intransigence as the chance she would avoid skewing the results of an Israeli poll in a misleading manner which shows Israelis in the worst possible light.


http://cifwatch.com/ (http://cifwatch.com/)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 08:42:35 AM
Harriet Sherwood cherry picks results of poll to smear Israel with 'apartheid' label
in thread
Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve

I believe the correct term is  "chutzpah"

Nobody asked Israel to occupy the West Bank and Gaza.  Israel is a sovereign state that decides for itself and it a real tragedy that the people of Israel would choose  apartheid. They won't pull out of the West Bank and they won't give palestinians the vote.

Israel is in a real hole. Hopefully they can pull out of it before it is too late and they try to expel the Palestinians.     
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 10:09:28 AM
The death toll in the past 24 hours has now increased to 7 as 2 more Palestinians have been murdered by Israel. The skies are filled with Drones and F 16's, and there is a real fear in Gaza right now.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 10:55:02 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 10:09:28 AM
The death toll in the past 24 hours has now increased to 7 as 2 more Palestinians have been murdered by Israel. The skies are filled with Drones and F 16's, and there is a real fear in Gaza right now.
and they say Gaza is not occupied
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 11:14:39 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/the-psychology-of-israel-s-declining-democracy.premium-1.472013#

But I think there is an additional reason for the rise in racism. Israel has been occupying the West Bank for more than two thirds of its history now, and has discriminated against Israeli Arabs all along. All Israelis understand that the country cannot be both Jewish and democratic if Israel continues to hold on to the West Bank. But Israel's political right, which has largely ruled the country for more than half of its existence, claims that Israel cannot or must not withdraw from the West Bank either on theological grounds or because this would endanger Israel's security.

Psychological research has shown for many decades that human beings are incapable of seeing themselves as bad in the long run. If a group does something that is immoral under a given value system, it cannot in the long run bear the cognitive dissonance. As a result it will tend to change its value system in order to avoid feeling bad, guilty or ashamed.
The implications for Israel are clear: The longer Israel holds on to the territories, and discriminates against Israeli Arabs the stronger the psychological need to adjust core values, to avoid feeling bad. If Israel has ruled over Palestinians for so long without giving them political rights, the consequence will be to simply say that it is justifiable to discriminate against Arabs
.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 02:49:24 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 10:09:28 AM
The death toll in the past 24 hours has now increased to 7 as 2 more Palestinians have been murdered by Israel. The skies are filled with Drones and F 16's, and there is a real fear in Gaza right now.

The number of rockets fired from Gaza into Israel TODAY stands at 72. I see not even Haaretz has the gall to say any of those killed were innocent civilians.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on October 24, 2012, 03:03:32 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 02:49:24 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 10:09:28 AM
The death toll in the past 24 hours has now increased to 7 as 2 more Palestinians have been murdered by Israel. The skies are filled with Drones and F 16's, and there is a real fear in Gaza right now.

The number of rockets fired from Gaza into Israel TODAY stands at 72. I see not even Haaretz has the gall to say any of those killed were innocent civilians.

You are a fraud Ball DeBeaver and a disgusting excuse for a human being. Shame on you.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 03:29:01 PM
No harm to the MOD's on here, but why is it that people are allowed to mock the deaths of Palestinians as if they are not humans? How long would any of us last if we were to poke fun at the deaths of others on another thread? The attitudes of some on this board is a reflection of why the world is so fcuked up.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
I'm a fraud? How so? Have I come here and pretend to be something I'm not? I think you'll find that  it is others on here who are the blatant liars.
I have, and will continue, to show that no matter what you read from certain members of this board, that not everyone is taken in by their propoganda. What has been posted by me shows that the situation in the middle east is a hell of a lot different from that portrayed. It is a lot more complex than Israeli = bad, Palestinian = good. I will never accept that firing rockets into civilian areas indiscriminately is justifiable. Neither will I accept the indiscriminate shelling of civilians by Israel, both are just as abhorrent. Those who do these things deserve all the pain they receive.


There are two sides to the story. If anyone can show me where these latest 7 dead have been claimed to be civilian, I will gladly condemn their deaths. For too long this board has been fed half truths and blatant manipulation of the facts.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:47:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 03:29:01 PM
No harm to the MOD's on here, but why is it that people are allowed to mock the deaths of Palestinians as if they are not humans? How long would any of us last if we were to poke fun at the deaths of others on another thread? The attitudes of some on this board is a reflection of why the world is so fcuked up.
Dry yer eyes.

I will mock and rejoice in the deaths of anyone directly involved in the murder of innocent civilians. On either side. They ARE subhuman.

By you trying to have me censored just goes to show how frail your argument is.

If you dont like what I'm saying, or if you think I have broken any rules of the board, then use the report feature at the bottom of the post.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:53:26 PM


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/24/gaza-israel-shelling-resumes (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/24/gaza-israel-shelling-resumes)


Gaza-Israel shelling resumes after departure of Qatari emir
Israel carries out targeted air strikes in response to sustained rocket fire following brief lull during visit of Sheikh Hamad
Share17




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Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem

guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 24 October 2012 14.29 BST



An Israeli man inspects damage to his house following a rocket attack on the the Israeli kibbutz of Beeri from neighbouring Gaza. Photograph: Jack Guez/AFP/Getty Images


More than 70 rockets have been fired into southern Israel from Gaza since the departure on Tuesday of the emir of Qatar, whose visit to the Gaza Strip was seen as a boost for its ruling faction, Hamas. Three foreign agricultural workers were injured and several buildings were hit.

Four militants were killed in resurgent Israeli air strikes overnight as a short period of calm ended. Three were members of Hamas's military wing, the Ezzedin al-Qassam brigades, according to reports on its website.

Hamas, which normally distances itself from rocket fire from Gaza, has claimed responsibility for some operations in recent days. "These holy missions come in response to the repeated, continuous crimes of the enemy against our people, which killed four and injured 10 in the past 48 hours," it said in a statement.

Israel's defence minister, Ehud Barak, said he would order whatever action was necessary to stop rocket fire from Gaza. "If a ground operation will be necessary, there will be a ground operation. Nobody is eager for this but we will act as we are required to stop this wave and to increase the effectiveness of the operation."

Israeli tanks have fired into Gaza in addition to air strikes, according to reports. Schools in both southern Israel and central Gaza were closed on Wednesday, and the Israeli authorities shut crossing points to the enclave.

Both Israel and Hamas are thought to want to avoid an escalation into full-scale conflict. But if Israeli casualties resulted from rocket fire, Israel would be expected to engage in a more sustained assault than targeted assassinations.

Hamas is also under pressure from more radical organisations within Gaza, which may explain its unusual open participation in this latest round of violence. "Hamas feels a tension between the need to be a government [in Gaza] and the need to be part of the resistance [to Israel]. It has in its ranks quite a few people who co-operate with the more radical groups," Yossi Kuperwasser, the director general of Israel's ministry of strategic affairs, told reporters in a briefing last week.

Weapons were "pouring in" to Gaza, he added. "Everyone is extremely busy building a terror infrastructure. Libya is a new and very important source of weapons. The arming process is very intensive and with it comes a growing tendency to use such arms."

Earlier this month, an anti-aircraft missile was fired from Gaza for the first time at an Israeli military helicopter, according to Israeli defence officials. The shoulder-fired Strela missile missed its target.

The visit by the Qatari emir, the first head of state to visit Gaza under Hamas rule, was seen as conferring legitimacy on the Islamist organisation. Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani also announced a $400m investment and construction programme for Gaza
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:47:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 03:29:01 PM
No harm to the MOD's on here, but why is it that people are allowed to mock the deaths of Palestinians as if they are not humans? How long would any of us last if we were to poke fun at the deaths of others on another thread? The attitudes of some on this board is a reflection of why the world is so fcuked up.
Dry yer eyes.

I will mock and rejoice in the deaths of anyone directly involved in the murder of innocent civilians. On either side. They ARE subhuman.

By you trying to have me censored just goes to show how frail your argument is.

If you dont like what I'm saying, or if you think I have broken any rules of the board, then use the report feature at the bottom of the post.
Go on then. Take the piss out of the Golani brigade of the IDF.


"How frail your argument is.".

Thanks for the laugh habibi

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Gaaboardmod3 on October 24, 2012, 04:10:50 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 03:29:01 PM
No harm to the MOD's on here, but why is it that people are allowed to mock the deaths of Palestinians as if they are not humans? How long would any of us last if we were to poke fun at the deaths of others on another thread? The attitudes of some on this board is a reflection of why the world is so fcuked up.

GHD, I'm monitoring this thread as it is an emotive topic, and I'm trying to allow people to debate and argue as long as it is someway civil, albeit heated at times. I don't see any mocking of death, or calling them subhuman, except in the case of people involved in attacks from either side. That might be contentious, but I do not think it is deliberately mocking the death of innocent civilians either.

There are quite a few anti-Israel posters on this, and other threads, and if we allow them to post their opinions and articles, it is only fair to allow pro-Israeli posters the same courtesy. I am not adjudicating on who is 'in the right' here, I'm just trying to make sure that debate is kept as civil as possible.

I think yourself, Seafoid and BalldeBeaver are well able to argue without personalising the issue, so I'm happy for that to continue. However, if I feel someone is crossing the line, then we will act, as we have done before.

Cheers.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
I'm a fraud? How so? Have I come here and pretend to be something I'm not? I think you'll find that  it is others on here who are the blatant liars.
I have, and will continue, to show that no matter what you read from certain members of this board, that not everyone is taken in by their propoganda. What has been posted by me shows that the situation in the middle east is a hell of a lot different from that portrayed. It is a lot more complex than Israeli = bad, Palestinian = good. I will never accept that firing rockets into civilian areas indiscriminately is justifiable. Neither will I accept the indiscriminate shelling of civilians by Israel, both are just as abhorrent. Those who do these things deserve all the pain they receive.


There are two sides to the story. If anyone can show me where these latest 7 dead have been claimed to be civilian, I will gladly condemn their deaths. For too long this board has been fed half truths and blatant manipulation of the facts.

Firing homemade rockets at Israel is pointless. It isn't justified but Israel loves it and does its best to provoke it.
Zionism is an oppressive ideology that runs an apartheid system for Palestinians.
There is simply no justification for this.

Anyone who denies that the Dahiya doctine imposed on Gaza since 2008 is not a deliberate attempt to force the people of Gaza to accept Israel's terms of engagement is a fraud.

The 2279 calories policy is a stain on the face of Israel which is why it was kept hidden for so long.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 04:31:14 PM
Quote from: Gaaboardmod3 on October 24, 2012, 04:10:50 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 03:29:01 PM
No harm to the MOD's on here, but why is it that people are allowed to mock the deaths of Palestinians as if they are not humans? How long would any of us last if we were to poke fun at the deaths of others on another thread? The attitudes of some on this board is a reflection of why the world is so fcuked up.

GHD, I'm monitoring this thread as it is an emotive topic, and I'm trying to allow people to debate and argue as long as it is someway civil, albeit heated at times. I don't see any mocking of death, or calling them subhuman, except in the case of people involved in attacks from either side. That might be contentious, but I do not think it is deliberately mocking the death of innocent civilians either.

There are quite a few anti-Israel posters on this, and other threads, and if we allow them to post their opinions and articles, it is only fair to allow pro-Israeli posters the same courtesy. I am not adjudicating on who is 'in the right' here, I'm just trying to make sure that debate is kept as civil as possible.

I think yourself, Seafoid and BalldeBeaver are well able to argue without personalising the issue, so I'm happy for that to continue. However, if I feel someone is crossing the line, then we will act, as we have done before.

Cheers.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
I'm a fraud? How so? Have I come here and pretend to be something I'm not? I think you'll find that  it is others on here who are the blatant liars.
I have, and will continue, to show that no matter what you read from certain members of this board, that not everyone is taken in by their propoganda. What has been posted by me shows that the situation in the middle east is a hell of a lot different from that portrayed. It is a lot more complex than Israeli = bad, Palestinian = good. I will never accept that firing rockets into civilian areas indiscriminately is justifiable. Neither will I accept the indiscriminate shelling of civilians by Israel, both are just as abhorrent. Those who do these things deserve all the pain they receive.


There are two sides to the story. If anyone can show me where these latest 7 dead have been claimed to be civilian, I will gladly condemn their deaths. For too long this board has been fed half truths and blatant manipulation of the facts.

Firing homemade rockets at Israel is pointless. It isn't justified but Israel loves it and does its best to provoke it.
Zionism is an oppressive ideology that runs an apartheid system for Palestinians.
There is simply no justification for this.

Anyone who denies that the Dahiya doctine imposed on Gaza since 2008 is not a deliberate attempt to force the people of Gaza to accept Israel's terms of engagement is a fraud.

The 2279 calories policy is a stain on the face of Israel which is why it was kept hidden for so long.

So you think Israel WANTS these rockets fired at their population? I don't agree with you but I can see where you're coming from, but that would be one hell of a risky/dangerous strategy on behalf of the Israeli gov. All it would take is for even one of these things to get a direct hit and you could have dozens of innocent Israeli kids blow to pieces. That would surely result in the IDF going buck mad in Gaza. Do you not think that Hamas are the ones with the death wish? After all, They would be responsible for the ensuing Israeli onslaught that would surely happen.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:49:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
I'm a fraud? How so? Have I come here and pretend to be something I'm not? I think you'll find that  it is others on here who are the blatant liars.
I have, and will continue, to show that no matter what you read from certain members of this board, that not everyone is taken in by their propoganda. What has been posted by me shows that the situation in the middle east is a hell of a lot different from that portrayed. It is a lot more complex than Israeli = bad, Palestinian = good. I will never accept that firing rockets into civilian areas indiscriminately is justifiable. Neither will I accept the indiscriminate shelling of civilians by Israel, both are just as abhorrent. Those who do these things deserve all the pain they receive.


There are two sides to the story. If anyone can show me where these latest 7 dead have been claimed to be civilian, I will gladly condemn their deaths. For too long this board has been fed half truths and blatant manipulation of the facts.

Firing homemade rockets at Israel is pointless. It isn't justified but Israel loves it and does its best to provoke it.
Zionism is an oppressive ideology that runs an apartheid system for Palestinians.
There is simply no justification for this.

Anyone who denies that the Dahiya doctine imposed on Gaza since 2008 is not a deliberate attempt to force the people of Gaza to accept Israel's terms of engagement is a fraud.

The 2279 calories policy is a stain on the face of Israel which is why it was kept hidden for so long.

So you think Israel WANTS these rockets fired at their population? I don't agree with you but I can see where you're coming from, but that would be one hell of a risky/dangerous strategy on behalf of the Israeli gov. All it would take is for even one of these things to get a direct hit and you could have dozens of innocent Israeli kids blow to pieces. That would surely result in the IDF going buck mad in Gaza. Do you not think that Hamas are the ones with the death wish? After all, They would be responsible for the ensuing Israeli onslaught that would surely happen.
I have been watching it for over a decade. Without the occupation there would be no need for half of the IDF. It's like the RUC was. Jobs.
The IDF trashes Gaza every so often to test its new materiel, to stretch international law and to give a run out to products which Israeli companies then sell abroad. 

The rockets give it the excuse to start bombing. It's not complicated.

Hamas and the IDF need each other. The losers are the civilians of Gaza and the people of Israel.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 05:01:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:49:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
I'm a fraud? How so? Have I come here and pretend to be something I'm not? I think you'll find that  it is others on here who are the blatant liars.
I have, and will continue, to show that no matter what you read from certain members of this board, that not everyone is taken in by their propoganda. What has been posted by me shows that the situation in the middle east is a hell of a lot different from that portrayed. It is a lot more complex than Israeli = bad, Palestinian = good. I will never accept that firing rockets into civilian areas indiscriminately is justifiable. Neither will I accept the indiscriminate shelling of civilians by Israel, both are just as abhorrent. Those who do these things deserve all the pain they receive.


There are two sides to the story. If anyone can show me where these latest 7 dead have been claimed to be civilian, I will gladly condemn their deaths. For too long this board has been fed half truths and blatant manipulation of the facts.

Firing homemade rockets at Israel is pointless. It isn't justified but Israel loves it and does its best to provoke it.
Zionism is an oppressive ideology that runs an apartheid system for Palestinians.
There is simply no justification for this.

Anyone who denies that the Dahiya doctine imposed on Gaza since 2008 is not a deliberate attempt to force the people of Gaza to accept Israel's terms of engagement is a fraud.

The 2279 calories policy is a stain on the face of Israel which is why it was kept hidden for so long.

So you think Israel WANTS these rockets fired at their population? I don't agree with you but I can see where you're coming from, but that would be one hell of a risky/dangerous strategy on behalf of the Israeli gov. All it would take is for even one of these things to get a direct hit and you could have dozens of innocent Israeli kids blow to pieces. That would surely result in the IDF going buck mad in Gaza. Do you not think that Hamas are the ones with the death wish? After all, They would be responsible for the ensuing Israeli onslaught that would surely happen.
I have been watching it for over a decade. Without the occupation there would be no need for half of the IDF. It's like the RUC was. Jobs.
The IDF trashes Gaza every so often to test its new materiel, to stretch international law and to give a run out to products which Israeli companies then sell abroad. 

The rockets give it the excuse to start bombing. It's not complicated.

Hamas and the IDF need each other. The losers are the civilians of Gaza and the people of Israel
.
Amen brother. THAT we can agree on.
As I see it, Hamas is doing the Palestinian cause no good by firing these rockets in Israel. They would give their cause more kudos if they were to take the moral high ground and fought Israel on humanitarian issues alone. Maybe then people like myself might have a bit more sympathy for their cause, as Israel would have no moral right to impose any restrictions on them.
As it stands, they just look like bloodthirsty savages, who use their own people as cannon fodder. Any resulting peace would (hopefully) be reflected in future elections in Israel, with the hard liners being pushed out. Both sets of civilians deserve peace.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 05:09:05 PM
I don't think it would make a difference TBH.  Gaza is unsustainable. All the Palestinians of southern Palestine herded into a concentration camp.

Pauperised since 1967. Bombed numerous time. No industry, very little agricultural capacity.
No political rights. No economic rights. Israel wants the people to leave but no country will take them and most wouldn't leave anyway.

It is a total mess.    That was the price of the Jewish state.
The whole story is desperate. Israelis are not in a great place either if they are honest with themselves. Militarism has cost their society so much in lost potential. 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 05:18:50 PM
Apart from the concentration camp part, I would agree with most of that.

Israel doesnt want the people to leave, it wants the headers who attack Israel to leave. But their military is a two edged sword. Without such a strong military, Israel would have been wiped out years ago. With it, they are overly militarised. As long as they feel threatened by their arab neighbours, they will maintain their military might. Catch 22.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 05:18:50 PM
Apart from the concentration camp part, I would agree with most of that.

Israel doesnt want the people to leave, it wants the headers who attack Israel to leave. But their military is a two edged sword. Without such a strong military, Israel would have been wiped out years ago. With it, they are overly militarised. As long as they feel threatened by their arab neighbours, they will maintain their military might. Catch 22.

Militarism is a dead end. Either they are there on their own merit as a people and they integrate into the region or are they are not and they conscript everyone. 
The Arabs offered them 2 states and full recognition but they want all of the land.
they went badly wrong in 1967 and they didn't ever have the balls to stand up to the settlers. 

It didn't have to turn out like this.
And none of their Arab neighbours threaten them either.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 06:31:49 PM
Truths and lies behind Israel's attacks on Gaza and its whining about rockets
Submitted by Ali Abunimah on Wed, 10/24/2012 - 16:03

Israel's hasbara – propaganda – organs are cranked up to the maximum right now complaining that Israel is once again the innocent victim of barrages of rockets from Gaza, and justifiying Israel's latest killings of Palestinians in Gaza as a necessary and legitimate response.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu claimed today, "We neither chose nor initiated this escalation but if it continues we are prepared for much more extensive and deeper action" in Gaza.

Don't believe the lies. Israel has been conducting a systematic campaign of "preemptive" extrajudicial executions in Gaza, knowing full well that this would bring on rocket fire. But Israel thinks the price is worth it.

On 14 October, Ynet published an interview with a senior military officer, under the headline, "Surgical strikes are worth risk of rocket fire":

Israel's southern communities are bracing for what may prove further escalation in rocket fire, following Saturday and Sunday's surgical IAF strikes, which left three terrorists dead; but Colonel Tal Hermoni, the IDF's outgoing Gaza Division commander, is convinced that the benefits of the IDF's operations outweigh the danger.

"If we wouldn't be taking them out, the same terrorists would have infiltrated the border and killed 20 kids at a holiday party," he said Sunday.

Isn't this is the sort of "preemptive" logic that led so many to accept the US invasion of Iraq?

Israel's version of "calm," it would seem, is that it should be allowed to kill whoever it pleases, but Palestinians can never respond.

During the week of 11-17 October, Israeli occupation forces killed five Palestinians in Gaza, two of them extrajudicial executions, according to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. Five others, including two children were wounded. PCHR described the extrajudicial killings that Hermoni had overseen:

In the Gaza Strip, IOF extra-judicially executed 2 Palestinians in the northern Gaza Strip. On 13 October 2012, Israeli warplanes launched a missile on a motorcycle ridden by 2 Palestinians on Mas'oud Street in Jabalia refugee camp, in the northern Gaza Strip. As a result, one of them was killed immediately, while the other died 3 hours later. A child who was in the vicinity of the attack was wounded and the windows of 2 houses in the area were broken. The glass door of a nearby pharmacy was also smashed.

Praising Hamas

In the same Ynet interview, Hermoni praised Hamas, which rules the interior of Israeli-occupied Gaza, for doing its best to keep things calm despite the execution campaign he was promoting:

"Hamas is taking action to prevent an escalation and is turning from a terror group to a sovereign movement that is assuming governmental responsibility. They have to worry about feeding and educating people, and every act of terror costs them dearly.

"But they day the decision is made, we'll know how to bring it to its knees. There will be a (ground) operation in Gaza. The only question is when," he said.

Israel, it seems, cannot be satisfied unless there is war and violence along its frontiers.

Half the story

Israel's full-volume hasbara about how it is the passive victim of rocket attacks is, as Yousef Munayyer pointed out in February, only half (in fact much less than half) the story:

If a rocket from Gaza falls in the middle of the desert, does it make a sound?

It does if you are on Twitter. Regular updates on just about every projectile fired from Gaza is reported by the Israeli military's official twitter account @IDFSpokesperson as well as from the accounts of other Israeli military figures like that of spokesperson @AvitalLeibovich.

But what about projectiles fired by Israel into Gaza? You'd think that since this is actual Israeli military activity the spokespeople from the Israeli military would provide this information.

Munayyer provided the answer, based on UN data:

In 2011, the projectiles fired by the Israeli military into Gaza have been responsible for the death of 108 Palestinians, of which 15 where women or children and the injury of 468 Palestinians of which 143 where women or children. The methods by which these causalities were inflicted by Israeli projectiles breaks down as follows: 57% or 310, were caused by Israeli Aircraft Missile fire, 28% or 150 where from Israeli live ammunition, 11% or 59 were from Israeli tank shells while another 3% or 18 were from Israeli mortar fire.

In 2012, the story is no different. Beware of Israel manufacturing a "rocket crisis" as it did in the weeks before its 2008-2009 "Operation Cast Lead" massacre in Gaza.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/truths-and-lies-behind-israels-attacks-gaza-and-its-whining-about-rockets
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:49:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
I'm a fraud? How so? Have I come here and pretend to be something I'm not? I think you'll find that  it is others on here who are the blatant liars.
I have, and will continue, to show that no matter what you read from certain members of this board, that not everyone is taken in by their propoganda. What has been posted by me shows that the situation in the middle east is a hell of a lot different from that portrayed. It is a lot more complex than Israeli = bad, Palestinian = good. I will never accept that firing rockets into civilian areas indiscriminately is justifiable. Neither will I accept the indiscriminate shelling of civilians by Israel, both are just as abhorrent. Those who do these things deserve all the pain they receive.


There are two sides to the story. If anyone can show me where these latest 7 dead have been claimed to be civilian, I will gladly condemn their deaths. For too long this board has been fed half truths and blatant manipulation of the facts.

Firing homemade rockets at Israel is pointless. It isn't justified but Israel loves it and does its best to provoke it.
Zionism is an oppressive ideology that runs an apartheid system for Palestinians.
There is simply no justification for this.

Anyone who denies that the Dahiya doctine imposed on Gaza since 2008 is not a deliberate attempt to force the people of Gaza to accept Israel's terms of engagement is a fraud.

The 2279 calories policy is a stain on the face of Israel which is why it was kept hidden for so long.

So you think Israel WANTS these rockets fired at their population? I don't agree with you but I can see where you're coming from, but that would be one hell of a risky/dangerous strategy on behalf of the Israeli gov. All it would take is for even one of these things to get a direct hit and you could have dozens of innocent Israeli kids blow to pieces. That would surely result in the IDF going buck mad in Gaza. Do you not think that Hamas are the ones with the death wish? After all, They would be responsible for the ensuing Israeli onslaught that would surely happen.
I have been watching it for over a decade. Without the occupation there would be no need for half of the IDF. It's like the RUC was. Jobs.
The IDF trashes Gaza every so often to test its new materiel, to stretch international law and to give a run out to products which Israeli companies then sell abroad. 

The rockets give it the excuse to start bombing. It's not complicated.

Hamas and the IDF need each other. The losers are the civilians of Gaza and the people of Israel.

In the past 2 years, the US tax payers have given Israel over $900 million towards the Iron Dome project. The Iron Dome is a mobile all-weather air defense system in development by Rafael Advanced Defense System, designed to intercept and destroy short-range rockets and artillery shells fired from distances of 4 to 70 kilometers away whose trajectory would take them to a populated area.

The $900 million is in addition to the $3 billion they also receive annually from the US tax payers.

So, with such capabilities to intercept any rockets fired from Gaza, why is it that they don't? Will it harm their victim mentality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 24, 2012, 07:00:39 PM
Can you honestly not see the difference between firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas and laser guided, targetted rocket attacks? The vast majority of which have caused very few civilian casualties.

Israel are targetting the militants, not civilians. Whereas Hamas and it's allies are just firing at will, no matter who gets it. The world would have a lot more sympathy if Hamas were to target just military installations instead of civilians.


...

As for Iron Dome, it is ineffective against the smaller rockets with a short range. Try again.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 07:09:02 PM
A brief history of the ancient city of Majdal, which was ethnically cleansed by Israel and is now known as Ashkelon. As bad it is for the illegal occupying residents living there now having to deal with a few rockets, it is nothing compared to what the 11,000 or so Palestinians had to deal with in 1948.

During the 1948 war, the Egyptian army occupied a large part of Gaza including Majdal. Over the next few months, the town was subjected to Israeli air-raids and shelling. All but about 1,000 of the town's residents were forced to leave by the time it was captured by Israeli forces as a sequel to Operation Yoav on 4 November 1948.

General Yigal Allon ordered the expulsion of the remaining Arabs but the local commanders did not do so and the Arab population soon recovered to more than 2,500 due mostly to refugees slipping back and also due to the transfer of Arabs from nearby villages. Most of them were elderly, women, or children. During the next year or so, the Arabs were held in a confined area surrounded by barbed wire, which became commonly known as the "ghetto".

Moshe Dayan and Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion were in favor of expulsion, while Mapam and the Israeli labor union Histadrut objected. The government offered the Arabs positive inducements to leave, including a favorable currency exchange, but also caused panic through night-time raids. The first group was deported to the Gaza Strip by truck on 17 August 1950 after an expulsion order had been served. The deportation was approved by Ben-Gurion and Dayan over the objections of Pinhas Lavon, secretary-general of the Histadrut, who envisioned the town as a productive example of equal opportunity.

By October 1950, 20 Arab families remained, most of whom later moved to Lydda or Gaza. According to Israeli records, in total 2,333 Arabs were transferred to the Gaza Strip, 60 to Jordan, 302 to other towns in Israel, and a small number remained in Ashkelon. Lavon argued that this operation dissipated "the last shred of trust the Arabs had in Israel, the sincerity of the State's declarations on democracy and civil equality, and the last remnant of confidence the Arab workers had in the Histadrut." Acting on an Egyptian complaint, the Egyptian-Israel Mixed Armistice Commission ruled that the Arabs transferred from Majdal should be returned to Israel, but this was not done.

Re-population of abandoned Arab dwellings by Jews became official policy by December 1948 but the process began slowly. The Israeli national plan of June 1949 designated Majdal as the site for a regional urban center of 20,000 people. From July 1949, new immigrants and demobilized soldiers moved to the new town, increasing the Jewish population to 2,500 within six months. The town was initially called Migdal Gaza, Migdal Gad and Migdal Ashkelon. In 1953, the nearby neighborhood of Afridar was incorporated and the name "Ashkelon" was adopted. By 1961, Ashkelon ranked 18th among Israeli urban centers with a population of 24,000
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 07:15:37 PM
It's easy to see there is an election coming up in the US as Obama bends over backwards to provide a show of strength with Israel. Of course the US tax payers stump up $30 million to cover the costs....

US, Israel begin largest-ever joint military exercise


Israeli and US troops launched an expansive missile defence exercise known as Austere Challenge 12 on Sunday, in what is the largest-ever military operation between the two countries. The exercise is expected to last three weeks.

Israeli and US troops were on Sunday beginning a vast missile defence exercise called Austere Challenge 12, in what was hailed as their largest-ever joint military operation, officials said.

The exercise, which involves 3,500 personnel from the US European Command (US EUCOM) and 1,000 Israeli troops and is expected to last three weeks, is likely to send a clear signal to Tehran over its disputed nuclear drive, which must of the West believes is a weapons drive.

"Austere Challenge 12 is the largest aerial defence exercise to take place between the two militaries," an Israeli military statement said.

The long-planned operation comes as the world grapples with the standoff over Iran's nuclear programme, and as a bloody civil war in Syria threatens to set the region alight, although Israel and US officials have said there is no connection.

"These exercises are part of a planned training schedule that seeks to increase cooperation interoperability between the militaries. Planning for the exercise began over two years ago and is not a response to specific events in the region," the statement said.

Of the 3,500 US personnel involved, around a thousand will be stationed in Israel, while the rest will operate in Europe and the Mediterranean, senior US air force officer Lieutenant General Craig Franklin told reporters last week.

Troops will train together on Israel's Iron Dome missile defence system, the latest version of the US Patriot and the Arrow anti-ballistic missile system, jointly developed by the two allies.

Command and control functions will be provided by US Navy Aegis cruiser.

Franklin said the operation, which would last "about three weeks," was a defensive exercise unrelated to Iran, or any other developments in the Middle East.

"While the scenario is driven by the overall situation in the Middle East, AC12 is not related to any specific current event... nor to any perceived tensions in the Middle East," he said.

The cost of the exercise is around $38 million, with Washington covering around $30 million of the total.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2012, 08:23:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 24, 2012, 07:09:02 PM
A brief history of the ancient city of Majdal, which was ethnically cleansed by Israel and is now known as Ashkelon. As bad it is for the illegal occupying residents living there now having to deal with a few rockets, it is nothing compared to what the 11,000 or so Palestinians had to deal with in 1948.

During the 1948 war, the Egyptian army occupied a large part of Gaza including Majdal. Over the next few months, the town was subjected to Israeli air-raids and shelling. All but about 1,000 of the town's residents were forced to leave by the time it was captured by Israeli forces as a sequel to Operation Yoav on 4 November 1948.

General Yigal Allon ordered the expulsion of the remaining Arabs but the local commanders did not do so and the Arab population soon recovered to more than 2,500 due mostly to refugees slipping back and also due to the transfer of Arabs from nearby villages. Most of them were elderly, women, or children. During the next year or so, the Arabs were held in a confined area surrounded by barbed wire, which became commonly known as the "ghetto".

Moshe Dayan and Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion were in favor of expulsion, while Mapam and the Israeli labor union Histadrut objected. The government offered the Arabs positive inducements to leave, including a favorable currency exchange, but also caused panic through night-time raids. The first group was deported to the Gaza Strip by truck on 17 August 1950 after an expulsion order had been served. The deportation was approved by Ben-Gurion and Dayan over the objections of Pinhas Lavon, secretary-general of the Histadrut, who envisioned the town as a productive example of equal opportunity.

By October 1950, 20 Arab families remained, most of whom later moved to Lydda or Gaza. According to Israeli records, in total 2,333 Arabs were transferred to the Gaza Strip, 60 to Jordan, 302 to other towns in Israel, and a small number remained in Ashkelon. Lavon argued that this operation dissipated "the last shred of trust the Arabs had in Israel, the sincerity of the State's declarations on democracy and civil equality, and the last remnant of confidence the Arab workers had in the Histadrut." Acting on an Egyptian complaint, the Egyptian-Israel Mixed Armistice Commission ruled that the Arabs transferred from Majdal should be returned to Israel, but this was not done.

Re-population of abandoned Arab dwellings by Jews became official policy by December 1948 but the process began slowly. The Israeli national plan of June 1949 designated Majdal as the site for a regional urban center of 20,000 people. From July 1949, new immigrants and demobilized soldiers moved to the new town, increasing the Jewish population to 2,500 within six months. The town was initially called Migdal Gaza, Migdal Gad and Migdal Ashkelon. In 1953, the nearby neighborhood of Afridar was incorporated and the name "Ashkelon" was adopted. By 1961, Ashkelon ranked 18th among Israeli urban centers with a population of 24,000

Zochrot visisted Majdal a few years ago.

Check out the bot reaction after 2:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwD62j9YOOg
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 25, 2012, 02:25:38 PM
Not content with bombing Gaza, Israel decide to attack Sudan and bring their weeks killing to 10.

Sudan 'terrorist state', says Israel official after raid

(AFP) – 4 hours ago 

JERUSALEM — Sudan is a "dangerous terrorist state," a top Israeli defence official said on Thursday after the Sudanese government accused Israel of carrying out a deadly missile strike on a military factory in Khartoum.

Sudanese officials say the attack on the Yarmouk facility south of Khartoum, which took place at around midnight on Tuesday and killed two people, was carried out by four radar-evading aircraft.
Israel, which has long accused Khartoum of serving as a base of support for militants from the Islamist Hamas movement which rules Gaza, has refused all comment on the claim.

"Sudan is a dangerous terrorist state. To know exactly what happened (there), it will take some time to understand," Amos Gilad told Israel's army radio.

Asked directly whether Israel was involved in the attack, Gilad, who serves as director of policy and political-military affairs at the defence ministry, refused to reply directly.

The Israeli air force, he noted, was "one of the most prestigious in the world, a fact which had been proved many times in the past.

"Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir is regarded a war criminal. Sudan has also served as the operational base for (the late Al-Qaeda chief Osama) bin Laden," Gilad pointed out.

"The regime is supported by Iran and it serves as a route for the transfer, via Egyptian territory, of Iranian weapons to Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists," he told the radio.

Khartoum has said it found evidence of Israeli involvement among the remnants of the explosives at the blast site.

"We think Israel did the bombing," Culture and Information Minister Ahmed Bilal Osman said, adding: "We reserve the right to react at a place and time we choose."

It is not the first mystery blast which has prompted allegations of Israeli involvement.
In April 2011, Sudan said it had irrefutable evidence that Israeli attack helicopters carried out an air strike on a car driving along its Red Sea coast which killed two people.

Israel again refused to comment, but Israeli intelligence sources told AFP that a truck carrying weapons, which was being escorted by the car, had been hit in the strike.

In January 2009, foreign aircraft bombed a convoy of trucks in eastern Sudan, with US and Israeli press reports saying they were carrying weapons destined for Gaza during Israel's deadly 22-day assault on the territory.

Khartoum, which has close ties with Hamas, is seeking the removal of US sanctions imposed in 1997 over its alleged support for international terrorism, its human rights record and other concerns.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gSoTbAbd9z-REdfGHzbKpkV-HZtA?docId=CNG.e948f75582c629a7eb61956930e63223.191
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 25, 2012, 04:14:12 PM
Quote"Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir is regarded a war criminal. Sudan has also served as the operational base for (the late Al-Qaeda chief Osama) bin Laden," Gilad pointed out.

"The regime is supported by Iran and it serves as a route for the transfer, via Egyptian territory, of Iranian weapons to Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists," he told the radio.



Khartoum, which has close ties with Hamas, is seeking the removal of US sanctions imposed in 1997 over its alleged support for international terrorism, its human rights record and other concerns.
I can't think why Israel would have done this.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 25, 2012, 05:44:05 PM

Arab/Leftist Olive Tree Vandals Busted by Jewish Film Crew

Volunteers caught a group of Arabs and anarchists uprooting olive trees near Ateret in Binyamin, apparently planning to blame Jews


AAFont Size
By David Lev
First Publish: 10/25/2012, 6:00 PM




Arab/Leftist Olive Tree Vandals

Binyamin Regional Council


Volunteers from the grassroots Binyamin Residents' Council on Wednesday caught a group of Arabs and anarchists uprooting olive trees near the town of Ateret in Binyamin. Apparently, the group was planning to cause damage to an olive grove belonging to an Arab farmer, and blame it on Jews from the area.

The volunteers filmed footage of the group as it was destroying the trees, filming its members for several minutes, until one of the group noticed they were being recorded. At that point, the group began shouting and threatened to attack the volunteers. The group quickly loaded the trees onto a pickup truck and ran away.

Itzik Shadmi, chairman of the Council, called on the IDF and the government to put more effort into preventing these kinds of provocations, and to keep the anarchist and student groups who ostensibly come to "help" the Arabs in the olive harvest out of the area. "Thanks to these patrols, which are manned by volunteers from the Binyamin region, we have shown the true faces of these Arabs, who each year complain that Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria destroy their trees."

Last week, volunteers also caught a group destroying trees, and filmed them as well (see video below). That incident occurred near Elon Moreh. That group apparently did not have a pickup truck to move the evidence when they were caught, and instead left the damaged trees in the field. Volunteers called police, but no arrests were made.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161332 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161332)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 25, 2012, 07:52:13 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 25, 2012, 05:44:05 PM

Arab/Leftist Olive Tree Vandals Busted by Jewish Film Crew

Volunteers caught a group of Arabs and anarchists uprooting olive trees near Ateret in Binyamin, apparently planning to blame Jews


AAFont Size
By David Lev
First Publish: 10/25/2012, 6:00 PM




Arab/Leftist Olive Tree Vandals

Binyamin Regional Council


Volunteers from the grassroots Binyamin Residents' Council on Wednesday caught a group of Arabs and anarchists uprooting olive trees near the town of Ateret in Binyamin. Apparently, the group was planning to cause damage to an olive grove belonging to an Arab farmer, and blame it on Jews from the area.

The volunteers filmed footage of the group as it was destroying the trees, filming its members for several minutes, until one of the group noticed they were being recorded. At that point, the group began shouting and threatened to attack the volunteers. The group quickly loaded the trees onto a pickup truck and ran away.

Itzik Shadmi, chairman of the Council, called on the IDF and the government to put more effort into preventing these kinds of provocations, and to keep the anarchist and student groups who ostensibly come to "help" the Arabs in the olive harvest out of the area. "Thanks to these patrols, which are manned by volunteers from the Binyamin region, we have shown the true faces of these Arabs, who each year complain that Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria destroy their trees."

Last week, volunteers also caught a group destroying trees, and filmed them as well (see video below). That incident occurred near Elon Moreh. That group apparently did not have a pickup truck to move the evidence when they were caught, and instead left the damaged trees in the field. Volunteers called police, but no arrests were made.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161332 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161332)
So Jewish settlers don't destroy Palestinian olive trees ?
Is that what you are saying ?
Are we supposed to belive this hasbara?   
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:22:42 AM
Maybe it was the big bad Jews that done this too.....

Quote
Theft and Destruction at Jewish-Owned Olive Grove

A Jewish farmer went to harvest olives Tuesday from his grove in the Shilo region, but discovered his trees sawn and stripped of fruit.


AAFont Size
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 10/25/2012, 11:00 AM




Jewish olive grove destroyed in Shomron

Israel news photo: Shomron Residents' Council



A Jewish farmer went to harvest olives Tuesday morning from his grove in the Shilo region in Samaria (Shomron), but discovered that his grove had been stripped of the fruit. Dozens of trees were destroyed as well, their branches chopped. Many were sawn down.

Farmer Erez Ben-Saadom was left with only broken branches, he said, and fabric olive sacks with Arabic writing. There were also some olives spilled on the ground.

"We don't know what to do now," the farmer said. "We are talking about tens of thousands of shekels lost, and serious damage to the grove."

Ben-Saadon said it's not the first time he has has fallen victim to theft and vandalism from his Arab neighbors. "Last Sabbath, Arabs harvested from my trees and stole olives from 40 other trees in the same area," he told Arutz Sheva. "A few years ago, they planted three bombs in our vineyard in Har Bracha," he added. "It was a miracle nobody was hurt.

"Uprooting trees, theft and throwing rocks at farmers is not rare, unfortunately," he said. "Every year we suffer from assaults and thefts, both from the Arabs and from anarchists and leftist who come here from around the world.

"It's outrageous that next to my home in Rechelim, Arabs harvest olives without being disturbed, and yet they attack us in the media as if we're plotting against them – while Arab attacks and thefts targeting Jewish farmers in Samaria are met with silence," he declared.

Samaria (Shomron) Residents' Committee head Benny Katzover confirmed that farmers in the region have faced frequent harassment, theft and vandalism during the olive harvest season, as well as attempted libel.

"Unfortunately, this serious issue is met with a lack of proper response," Katzover said. "I call on the legal authorities to take Arab and far-left attacks as seriously as they take Jewish attacks on Arabs," he added.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161327 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161327)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:28:29 AM
Pro-Israel Arab party to run in next Knesset election




Thursday, October 25, 2012 |  Ryan Jones   




Israel's upcoming early election just got a lot more interesting with the announced formation of a new Arab political party that intends to support the Jewish state.

Israel's Channel 2 News on Friday highlighted the new party, which will reportedly be made up of "well-known" Arab public figures.

One of the organizers for the new party told Channel 2, "We're tired of Arab MKs who are more concerned with foreign policy in the Arab world and the Palestinian people."

The source was referring to the fact that the three Arab parties currently in the Knesset are made up of lawmakers who spend the bulk of their time condemning and undermining Israel and collaborating with its enemies.

The new party's goal is to do its job of truly representing its constituents, and therefore will busy itself with bettering the lives of Israel's Arab population.

Earlier in the summer we reported on an Arab public figure from the Galilee who planned to form a pro-Israel Arab Knesset party. Sarhan Bader, a local Likud activist, told The Jerusalem Post at the time that he, too, was tired of Israel's current Arab lawmakers misrepresenting the community.

"Most Arab citizens are in favor of coexisting, cooperating and living in harmony with Jewish Israelis," he said. "The other Arab parties place too much emphasis on the Palestinians and external Arabs. But it's more important to serve the Arabs inside Israel who want to live here in peace with our Jewish cousins."

It is not yet clear if Bader will be part of the new Arab party profiled by Channel 2, or if two pro-Israel Arab parties will seek seats in the next Knesset.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23454/Default.aspx (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23454/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:32:27 AM
Arabs urged to serve in Israeli army


Israel is currently engaging in vigorous review of its military draft laws, which currently permit Orthodox Jews and Arabs to avoid national service. Interestingly, there are a number of Arab voices insisting that their sector of society should serve the same as Israel's Jews.

Reforming Israel's draft laws was one of the conditions of former opposition party Kadima joining Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government. At the center of the negotiations was the Tal Law that enables Jews to bypass military service if they are attending yeshiva (Jewish seminary). Non-Orthodox Israelis are unhappy that so many of their religious brethren do not help carry the burden of national defense.

But the situation is not so simple. In a democratic society, it is not possible to only target Orthodox Jews for national service, and so the laws governing the drafting of Israeli Arabs are also being reviewed, much to the irritation of Arab Knesset members.

Arab members of Israel's Knesset like Ahmad Tibi and Talab el-Sana have long insisted that Israel is a racist state and therefore its Arab citizens should not do any kind of national service.

In an interview with Israel's Ynet news portal, Bedouin Arab activist Ibrahim al-Huzeil strongly disagreed.

"You want rights? Make your contribution. If not in the army, then help the community, your sector, your town," said Huzeil. "I see no problem with everyone enlisting, including Arabs and haredim."

As for Tibi and el-Sana, Huzeil said they do not represent most Israeli Arabs, but rather "they represent the Palestinian Authority and terror." Interestingly, Tibi was once an advisor to former Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat, who at one time was the world's most visible terrorist.

Huzeil said that so far eight of his nine sons have served in the Israeli army, and he will continue to raise them to view national service to the Jewish state as a duty.

Protesters at the "Suckers' Tent" in Jerusalem where IDF reservists are challenging the exemption of Orthodox Jews from national service were surprised to hear a message similar to Huzeil's last week when an Arab mother visited.

Anet Haschaya insisted that, like the Orthodox, Israeli Arabs "must also carry their equal share of the burden, stop complaining and begin serving in the IDF – or at least join the national service program."

Haschaya, a Muslim, noted that all three of her sons had or currently were serving in the Israeli army.

A few years ago, the BBC profiled Maj Fehd Fallah, an Israeli Bedouin from the Golan Heights who explained that there are thousands of Arabs serving in the Israeli army, with pride.

"Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country," said Fallah.

While enlistment among Bedouins and other Arab Muslims is relatively low, a comparatively large percentage of Israeli Druze do serve in the IDF, a decision their leaders made shortly after the rebirth of Israel.

It is also more common for Arab Christians to enlist than their Muslim brothers. Two years ago, the IDF celebrated the promotion of its first female Arab combat soldier, Cpl. Elinor Joseph, whose father before her had been an Israeli paratrooper.

"I know I am part of the Jewish state's army and therefore when we speak about that I listen and learn," said Elinor at the time. "I believe in what I am doing. In my eyes, I am here for a mission."

Earlier this year, Ynet reported on a female Arab Christian soldier who encourages young Israeli Jews to take pride in their upcoming military service.

Shirin Shlian from Nazareth speaks at schools in the Jewish part of the town helping teenage Israelis make sense of the life changes they are about to face.

"I give the students a lesson about the first draft notice, IDF enlistment and the jobs the army has to offer. In addition, I hold personal conversations with each student with the aim of encouraging them to have a significant and contributing service," said Shlian, whose brothers are also soldiers.
"The students applaud me for my decision to volunteer, enlist – and make a contribution to the State."


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23279/Default.aspx (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23279/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 09:18:02 AM
Remember when Israel destroyed the UN schools in Gaza during Cast Lead and then told the world that there were rockets fired from them? Well, they lied .......

http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=1477

No rockets from UNRWA schools in Gaza during the Gaza war of 2008-2009
Israel's Channel Two publishes correction


24 October 2012
East Jerusalem

Israel's highest-rating news programme, Channel Two News, has published a statement correcting false claims that rockets were fired from schools operated by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) during the Gaza war in 2008-2009. The statement makes clear that Israeli officials themselves acknowledged that such claims were false and that there was no evidence to support them.

"We heard this misinformation during the war when there was shelling on and around the Agency's schools and our main warehouse in Gaza", said UNRWA Spokesperson Chris Gunness, "but Israeli officials made it clear to the UN during the war itself that they knew claims about militants in UNRWA installations were completely false. Constant, unchecked repetition of this misinformation has been very damaging to the Agency and has produced some very poor and biased journalism, which I will continue to confront. This is the third time in just a few months that a major news organisation has issued a public retraction because of false information about UNRWA."

The shelling in and around UNRWA installations, such as schools and the Agency's warehouse in Gaza, were condemned by UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and other world leaders. In a statement issued on 15 January 2009, Mr. Ban expressed "outrage", saying he had protested to Israel's defence and foreign ministers. The defence minister had told Mr. Ban that the shelling of the UNRWA warehouse was a "grave mistake".

After the warehouse was destroyed along with all material and equipment within it, the Israeli government paid over USD 10 million to the United Nations. "Would all this really have happened? Would all this really have been said by such senior officials if there were militants firing rockets from our installations?" asked Gunness.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 09:21:22 AM
Good piece from professor Richard Falk on why we should boycott those companies who profit from the illegal occupation. One omission is Irish company, CRH, who supply the cement used in the Apartheid Wall and in the illegal settlements

http://www.un.org/ga/61/news/news.asp?NewsID=43376&Cr=palestin&Cr1

UN independent expert calls for boycott of businesses profiting from Israeli settlements

25 October 2012 - A United Nations independent expert today called on the world body's General Assembly, as well as civil society, to take action against Israeli and international businesses that are profiting from Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory.

"My main recommendation is that the businesses highlighted in the report – as well as the many other businesses that are profiting from the Israeli settlement enterprise – should be boycotted, until they bring their operations into line with international human rights and humanitarian law and standards," the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, Richard Falk, said in a news release issued as he presented a report on his work to the Assembly.

Highlighting the activities of companies such as Caterpillar Incorporated of the United States, Veolia Environment of France, G4S of the United Kingdom, the Dexia Group of Belgium, Ahava of Israel, the Volvo Group of Sweden, the Riwal Holding Group of the Netherlands, Elbit Systems of Israel, Hewlett Packard of the USA, Mehadrin of Israel, Motorola of the USA, Assa Abloy of Sweden, and Cemex of Mexico, the Special Rapporteur noted that a wide range of Israeli and international businesses are involved in the establishment and maintenance of the Israeli settlements.

"All Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established in clear violation of international law," said Mr. Falk.

"Yet today Israeli settlements control over 40 percent of the West Bank and between 500,000 and 600,000 Israeli citizens are living in Palestinian territory," he added. "In the last 12 months alone, the settler population has increased by over 15,000 persons."

He drew the Assembly's attention to developing international law and standards concerning businesses and human rights, including the UN Global Compact and the UN Guiding Principles on Businesses and Human Rights.

"The principles outlined in the Global Compact are clear," Mr. Falk said. "Businesses should support and respect the protection of internationally proclaimed human rights and ensure that they are not complicit in human rights abuses."

The Global Compact is a strategic policy initiative for businesses that are committed to aligning their operations and strategies with ten universally accepted principles in the areas of human rights, labour, environment and anti-corruption. The Guiding Principles, endorsed by the Human Rights Council, provide a global standard for preventing and addressing the risk of adverse impacts on human rights linked to business activity.

Mr. Falk also noted guidance developed by the International Committee of the Red Cross that points to the prospect of corporate and individual criminal responsibility for violations committed during a situation of armed conflict.

"In short, businesses should not breach international humanitarian law provisions. Nor should they be complicit in any breaches. If they do, they may be subject to criminal or civil liability. And this liability can be extended to individual employees of such businesses," the Special Rapporteur said in presenting his report.

Mr. Falk noted that he had written to all the businesses mentioned in his report, and that positive responses were received from some of them.

"It is encouraging to be informed that Assa Abloy has moved its Mul-T-Locks factory from the West Bank to Israel, and that the Dexia Group, G4S, and Cemex are looking for ways to bring their operations into line with their commitments under the UN Global Compact," he added.

Independent experts, or special rapporteurs, are appointed by the Geneva-based Human Rights Council to examine and report back on a country situation or a specific human rights theme. The positions are honorary and the experts are not United Nations staff, nor are they paid for their work.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:22:42 AM
Maybe it was the big bad Jews that done this too.....

Quote
Theft and Destruction at Jewish-Owned Olive Grove

A Jewish farmer went to harvest olives Tuesday from his grove in the Shilo region, but discovered his trees sawn and stripped of fruit.


AAFont Size
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 10/25/2012, 11:00 AM




Jewish olive grove destroyed in Shomron

Israel news photo: Shomron Residents' Council



A Jewish farmer went to harvest olives Tuesday morning from his grove in the Shilo region in Samaria (Shomron), but discovered that his grove had been stripped of the fruit. Dozens of trees were destroyed as well, their branches chopped. Many were sawn down.

Farmer Erez Ben-Saadom was left with only broken branches, he said, and fabric olive sacks with Arabic writing. There were also some olives spilled on the ground.

"We don't know what to do now," the farmer said. "We are talking about tens of thousands of shekels lost, and serious damage to the grove."

Ben-Saadon said it's not the first time he has has fallen victim to theft and vandalism from his Arab neighbors. "Last Sabbath, Arabs harvested from my trees and stole olives from 40 other trees in the same area," he told Arutz Sheva. "A few years ago, they planted three bombs in our vineyard in Har Bracha," he added. "It was a miracle nobody was hurt.

"Uprooting trees, theft and throwing rocks at farmers is not rare, unfortunately," he said. "Every year we suffer from assaults and thefts, both from the Arabs and from anarchists and leftist who come here from around the world.

"It's outrageous that next to my home in Rechelim, Arabs harvest olives without being disturbed, and yet they attack us in the media as if we're plotting against them – while Arab attacks and thefts targeting Jewish farmers in Samaria are met with silence," he declared.

Samaria (Shomron) Residents' Committee head Benny Katzover confirmed that farmers in the region have faced frequent harassment, theft and vandalism during the olive harvest season, as well as attempted libel.

"Unfortunately, this serious issue is met with a lack of proper response," Katzover said. "I call on the legal authorities to take Arab and far-left attacks as seriously as they take Jewish attacks on Arabs," he added.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161327 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161327)

BDB. What sort of Arabs are these people referred to in your posts ? Are they Algerians or Omanis or what? I would appreciate an explanation.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 10:21:19 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:28:29 AM
Pro-Israel Arab party to run in next Knesset election




Thursday, October 25, 2012 |  Ryan Jones   




Israel's upcoming early election just got a lot more interesting with the announced formation of a new Arab political party that intends to support the Jewish state.

Israel's Channel 2 News on Friday highlighted the new party, which will reportedly be made up of "well-known" Arab public figures.

One of the organizers for the new party told Channel 2, "We're tired of Arab MKs who are more concerned with foreign policy in the Arab world and the Palestinian people."

The source was referring to the fact that the three Arab parties currently in the Knesset are made up of lawmakers who spend the bulk of their time condemning and undermining Israel and collaborating with its enemies.

The new party's goal is to do its job of truly representing its constituents, and therefore will busy itself with bettering the lives of Israel's Arab population.

Earlier in the summer we reported on an Arab public figure from the Galilee who planned to form a pro-Israel Arab Knesset party. Sarhan Bader, a local Likud activist, told The Jerusalem Post at the time that he, too, was tired of Israel's current Arab lawmakers misrepresenting the community.

"Most Arab citizens are in favor of coexisting, cooperating and living in harmony with Jewish Israelis," he said. "The other Arab parties place too much emphasis on the Palestinians and external Arabs. But it's more important to serve the Arabs inside Israel who want to live here in peace with our Jewish cousins."

It is not yet clear if Bader will be part of the new Arab party profiled by Channel 2, or if two pro-Israel Arab parties will seek seats in the next Knesset.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23454/Default.aspx (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23454/Default.aspx)
BDB - fascinating. It is very strange that the Arab parties would be so pro Palestinian. Do you have any ideas as to why this might happen ? it couldn't happen here.  Imagine Irish catholics in Westmeath taking an interest in British catholics living in Armagh. The mind boggles.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 11:45:11 AM
If you refuse to serve in the IDF and have a conscience, you go to jail......

Israeli conscientious objector begins 10-day sentence for refusing to serve in IDF


Moriel Rothman, 23, a Jerusalem native who lived in the United States for two decades, says he is acting in 'solidarity with the Palestinians living under occupation.

A U.S.-Israeli citizen who is refusing to perform his compulsory IDF service as a "conscientious objector", has a  has been sentenced to ten days in a military jail, Haaretz has learned.

Moriel Rothman, 23, a Jerusalem native who lived in the United States for two decades before returning to Israel last year, reported Wednesday to IDF headquarters outside in Tel Aviv after receiving a draft notice last June. Rothman told Haaretz late Wednesday night that he had been sentenced.

The IDF Spokespersons' Unit responded, "The soldier was arrested for avoiding the draft and for violating the Security Service Law and was sentenced to 10 days' incarceration," the IDF Spokesman's Unit said in a statement.

"The above-mentioned soldier submitted a request to appear before the Conscience Committee, and when he completes his sentence a decision will be made concerning the rest of his military service."

The statement did not mention where Rothman was being held.

In an interview with Haaretz, Rothman said he had planned to state his objections to IDF officials, knowing full well he faced incarceration. Rothman said he appealed the June letter, which was rejected ten days ago.

In a long letter posted to his blog, "The Leftern Wall," earlier this week, Rothman, a long-time resident of Yellow Springs, Ohio, laid out his manifesto, framing his refusal to serve in the Israel Defense Forces "on the basis of conscience, opposition to structural violence and the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories."

Clad in jeans, a plaid shirt and sandals, and an army-style jacket, Rothman appeared at an East Jerusalem transit point for soldiers at 8 A.M. Wednesday en route to Tel Aviv, accompanied by about ten friends and family members. He was holding a bag that he said bore a "toothbrush, some almonds, a notebook, a pen, and books by Hanoch Levin, Rebbe Nachman [of Bratslov], [Jorge Luis] Borges and the Dalai Lama."

"Occupation can only be theoretical if you are not occupied, and thus my refusal to support the occupation by serving in the IDF is also an act of solidarity with Palestinians living under occupation," blogged Rothman, a 2011 graduate of Middlebury College in Vermont, and former student president of the national board of "J Street U," the student organizing arm of J Street, a non-profit liberal advocacy group based in Washington, D.C.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-conscientious-objector-begins-10-day-sentence-for-refusing-to-serve-in-idf-1.472247
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 10:21:19 AM
BDB - fascinating. It is very strange that the Arab parties would be so pro Palestinian. Do you have any ideas as to why this might happen ? it couldn't happen here.  Imagine Irish catholics in Westmeath taking an interest in British catholics living in Armagh. The mind boggles.

I'm sure the Thatcherite press was stuffed to the gills during the apartheid era with tales of the good blacks who wanted to engage with the government of South Africa and condemned the terrorism of Mandela and the ANC. It would have been nauseating then too.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: LeoMc on October 26, 2012, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 10:21:19 AM
BDB - fascinating. It is very strange that the Arab parties would be so pro Palestinian. Do you have any ideas as to why this might happen ? it couldn't happen here.  Imagine Irish catholics in Westmeath taking an interest in British catholics living in Armagh. The mind boggles.

I'm sure the Thatcherite press was stuffed to the gills during the apartheid era with tales of the good blacks who wanted to engage with the government of South Africa and condemned the terrorism of Mandela and the ANC. It would have been nauseating then too.

In the 1980's the SDLP wanted constitutional politics and were condemning the activities of the IRA.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 12:41:05 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 26, 2012, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 10:21:19 AM
BDB - fascinating. It is very strange that the Arab parties would be so pro Palestinian. Do you have any ideas as to why this might happen ? it couldn't happen here.  Imagine Irish catholics in Westmeath taking an interest in British catholics living in Armagh. The mind boggles.

I'm sure the Thatcherite press was stuffed to the gills during the apartheid era with tales of the good blacks who wanted to engage with the government of South Africa and condemned the terrorism of Mandela and the ANC. It would have been nauseating then too.

In the 1980's the SDLP wanted constitutional politics and were condemning the activities of the IRA.

I see. By that logic, I presume you think the UK and South Africa were comparable states during that period.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 12:49:56 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 11:45:11 AM
If you refuse to serve in the IDF and have a conscience, you go to jail......

Israeli conscientious objector begins 10-day sentence for refusing to serve in IDF


Moriel Rothman, 23, a Jerusalem native who lived in the United States for two decades, says he is acting in 'solidarity with the Palestinians living under occupation.

A U.S.-Israeli citizen who is refusing to perform his compulsory IDF service as a "conscientious objector", has a  has been sentenced to ten days in a military jail, Haaretz has learned.

Moriel Rothman, 23, a Jerusalem native who lived in the United States for two decades before returning to Israel last year, reported Wednesday to IDF headquarters outside in Tel Aviv after receiving a draft notice last June. Rothman told Haaretz late Wednesday night that he had been sentenced.

The IDF Spokespersons' Unit responded, "The soldier was arrested for avoiding the draft and for violating the Security Service Law and was sentenced to 10 days' incarceration," the IDF Spokesman's Unit said in a statement.

"The above-mentioned soldier submitted a request to appear before the Conscience Committee, and when he completes his sentence a decision will be made concerning the rest of his military service."

The statement did not mention where Rothman was being held.

In an interview with Haaretz, Rothman said he had planned to state his objections to IDF officials, knowing full well he faced incarceration. Rothman said he appealed the June letter, which was rejected ten days ago.

In a long letter posted to his blog, "The Leftern Wall," earlier this week, Rothman, a long-time resident of Yellow Springs, Ohio, laid out his manifesto, framing his refusal to serve in the Israel Defense Forces "on the basis of conscience, opposition to structural violence and the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories."

Clad in jeans, a plaid shirt and sandals, and an army-style jacket, Rothman appeared at an East Jerusalem transit point for soldiers at 8 A.M. Wednesday en route to Tel Aviv, accompanied by about ten friends and family members. He was holding a bag that he said bore a "toothbrush, some almonds, a notebook, a pen, and books by Hanoch Levin, Rebbe Nachman [of Bratslov], [Jorge Luis] Borges and the Dalai Lama."

"Occupation can only be theoretical if you are not occupied, and thus my refusal to support the occupation by serving in the IDF is also an act of solidarity with Palestinians living under occupation," blogged Rothman, a 2011 graduate of Middlebury College in Vermont, and former student president of the national board of "J Street U," the student organizing arm of J Street, a non-profit liberal advocacy group based in Washington, D.C.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-conscientious-objector-begins-10-day-sentence-for-refusing-to-serve-in-idf-1.472247
It's a cult. You can't opt out.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 02:38:09 PM
Half the planet has compulsory military service.  ::)

If the man is too much of a coward, (don't believe the lie about having a concience) then he should be jailed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:22:42 AM
Maybe it was the big bad Jews that done this too.....

Quote
Theft and Destruction at Jewish-Owned Olive Grove

A Jewish farmer went to harvest olives Tuesday from his grove in the Shilo region, but discovered his trees sawn and stripped of fruit.


AAFont Size
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 10/25/2012, 11:00 AM




Jewish olive grove destroyed in Shomron

Israel news photo: Shomron Residents' Council



A Jewish farmer went to harvest olives Tuesday morning from his grove in the Shilo region in Samaria (Shomron), but discovered that his grove had been stripped of the fruit. Dozens of trees were destroyed as well, their branches chopped. Many were sawn down.

Farmer Erez Ben-Saadom was left with only broken branches, he said, and fabric olive sacks with Arabic writing. There were also some olives spilled on the ground.

"We don't know what to do now," the farmer said. "We are talking about tens of thousands of shekels lost, and serious damage to the grove."

Ben-Saadon said it's not the first time he has has fallen victim to theft and vandalism from his Arab neighbors. "Last Sabbath, Arabs harvested from my trees and stole olives from 40 other trees in the same area," he told Arutz Sheva. "A few years ago, they planted three bombs in our vineyard in Har Bracha," he added. "It was a miracle nobody was hurt.

"Uprooting trees, theft and throwing rocks at farmers is not rare, unfortunately," he said. "Every year we suffer from assaults and thefts, both from the Arabs and from anarchists and leftist who come here from around the world.

"It's outrageous that next to my home in Rechelim, Arabs harvest olives without being disturbed, and yet they attack us in the media as if we're plotting against them – while Arab attacks and thefts targeting Jewish farmers in Samaria are met with silence," he declared.

Samaria (Shomron) Residents' Committee head Benny Katzover confirmed that farmers in the region have faced frequent harassment, theft and vandalism during the olive harvest season, as well as attempted libel.

"Unfortunately, this serious issue is met with a lack of proper response," Katzover said. "I call on the legal authorities to take Arab and far-left attacks as seriously as they take Jewish attacks on Arabs," he added.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161327 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161327)

BDB. What sort of Arabs are these people referred to in your posts ? Are they Algerians or Omanis or what? I would appreciate an explanation.
Why don't you click on the link and find out?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: AZOffaly on October 26, 2012, 02:39:36 PM
You believe that everyone who feels they cannot serve in the military is a coward?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 02:51:39 PM
No, it would be absurd to think that. This man knew he was going to have to do military service when he returned to Israel, but chose not to. He was given the chance to plead his case to the Israeli conscience committee, but his case was rejected. They didn't believe he was a real conscientious objector.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: AZOffaly on October 26, 2012, 03:05:55 PM
Surely that makes him more courageous, not less, and probably even more principled. If you return somewhere where you *know* you are going to be pressed into the military, by law, yet you still go and try to make a stand against that conscription, is that not saying something about his motivation?

It might say that he's someone who is deliberately causing this issue so he can highlight his beliefs, but it hardly makes him a 'coward'.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 03:32:38 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 02:39:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:22:42 AM
Maybe it was the big bad Jews that done this too.....

Quote
Theft and Destruction at Jewish-Owned Olive Grove

A Jewish farmer went to harvest olives Tuesday from his grove in the Shilo region, but discovered his trees sawn and stripped of fruit.


AAFont Size
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 10/25/2012, 11:00 AM




Jewish olive grove destroyed in Shomron

Israel news photo: Shomron Residents' Council



A Jewish farmer went to harvest olives Tuesday morning from his grove in the Shilo region in Samaria (Shomron), but discovered that his grove had been stripped of the fruit. Dozens of trees were destroyed as well, their branches chopped. Many were sawn down.

Farmer Erez Ben-Saadom was left with only broken branches, he said, and fabric olive sacks with Arabic writing. There were also some olives spilled on the ground.

"We don't know what to do now," the farmer said. "We are talking about tens of thousands of shekels lost, and serious damage to the grove."

Ben-Saadon said it's not the first time he has has fallen victim to theft and vandalism from his Arab neighbors. "Last Sabbath, Arabs harvested from my trees and stole olives from 40 other trees in the same area," he told Arutz Sheva. "A few years ago, they planted three bombs in our vineyard in Har Bracha," he added. "It was a miracle nobody was hurt.

"Uprooting trees, theft and throwing rocks at farmers is not rare, unfortunately," he said. "Every year we suffer from assaults and thefts, both from the Arabs and from anarchists and leftist who come here from around the world.

"It's outrageous that next to my home in Rechelim, Arabs harvest olives without being disturbed, and yet they attack us in the media as if we're plotting against them – while Arab attacks and thefts targeting Jewish farmers in Samaria are met with silence," he declared.

Samaria (Shomron) Residents' Committee head Benny Katzover confirmed that farmers in the region have faced frequent harassment, theft and vandalism during the olive harvest season, as well as attempted libel.

"Unfortunately, this serious issue is met with a lack of proper response," Katzover said. "I call on the legal authorities to take Arab and far-left attacks as seriously as they take Jewish attacks on Arabs," he added.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161327 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161327)

BDB. What sort of Arabs are these people referred to in your posts ? Are they Algerians or Omanis or what? I would appreciate an explanation.
Why don't you click on the link and find out?
Because Jewish settlers are scumbags and that's a settler site.
I wouldn't read the BNF site either. 

Why do Zionists call Palestinians "Arabs" anyway? Because there is no such thing as a Palestinian under the laws of Zionism. They are just some class of non humans. 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:52:08 PM
Go ahead, let it all out.

Jewish settlers, scumbags? You'd be more welcome in the NF than you realise, with your anti jewish leanings. Some might even call you an anti semite.  :-X


Ar·ab
   [ar-uhb] 

noun
1.
a member of a Semitic people inhabiting Arabia and other countries of the Middle East.

2.
a member of any Arabic-speaking people.


Is that enough for you?











BTW, if anyone were to post on this site that catholics or muslims were scumbags, they would be banned. But it seems OK to call Jews scumbags. Thats OK then.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: LeoMc on October 26, 2012, 04:03:15 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 12:41:05 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 26, 2012, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 10:21:19 AM
BDB - fascinating. It is very strange that the Arab parties would be so pro Palestinian. Do you have any ideas as to why this might happen ? it couldn't happen here.  Imagine Irish catholics in Westmeath taking an interest in British catholics living in Armagh. The mind boggles.

I'm sure the Thatcherite press was stuffed to the gills during the apartheid era with tales of the good blacks who wanted to engage with the government of South Africa and condemned the terrorism of Mandela and the ANC. It would have been nauseating then too.

In the 1980's the SDLP wanted constitutional politics and were condemning the activities of the IRA.

I see. By that logic, I presume you think the UK and South Africa were comparable states during that period.
No more comparable than than South Africa and Israel.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 04:28:31 PM
When Israel bombed the UN buildings and schools in Gaza during Cast Lead, their spokesman, Mark Regev, came on TV and said they responded to fire from these locations. We knew all along they were lying, and today they have admitted to lying. What else did they lie about?

This is Mark Regev telling said lies to Paxman on Newsnight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9wv0giW1elo

This is his interview with Jon Snow where Jon cuts him off at the end due to his lies, complete with sub titles to explain what Mark is really saying !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMd_js_oQAk

This is Irishman John Ging, the head of the UN relief and works agency in Gaza during Cast Lead, explain how Israel knew the exact locations of their buildings and still went ahead and bombed them.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 04:34:16 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 03:52:08 PM
Go ahead, let it all out.

Jewish settlers, scumbags? You'd be more welcome in the NF than you realise, with your anti jewish leanings. Some might even call you an anti semite.  :-X


Ar·ab
   [ar-uhb] 

noun
1.
a member of a Semitic people inhabiting Arabia and other countries of the Middle East.

2.
a member of any Arabic-speaking people.


Is that enough for you?


BTW, if anyone were to post on this site that catholics or muslims were scumbags, they would be banned. But it seems OK to call Jews scumbags. Thats OK then.
BDB

It has been a great laugh this week with your attempts to pretend your are a hasbara expert but you are a poor actor.

Anyone who seizes land of peasants at gunpoint with the backing of an army and claims it in the name of God is a sc**bag in my view. The Moroccan settlers in Western Sahara are also scumbags.  As was/were  Ian Smith, the Portuguese in Angola etc

It has nothing to do with the religion of the people involved.  Israeli  colonialism in the West Bank is illegal under international law.

If I took over your house and claimed it was mine because of something G-d said to
Abraham you wouldn't like it either, would you ?

Re" Israeli Arabs" - call them Palestinians, like everyone else does.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 04:37:36 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 04:28:31 PM
When Israel bombed the UN buildings and schools in Gaza during Cast Lead, their spokesman, Mark Regev, came on TV and said they responded to fire from these locations. We knew all along they were lying, and today they have admitted to lying. What else did they lie about?

This is Mark Regev telling said lies to Paxman on Newsnight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9wv0giW1elo

This is his interview with Jon Snow where Jon cuts him off at the end due to his lies, complete with sub titles to explain what Mark is really saying !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMd_js_oQAk

This is Irishman John Ging, the head of the UN relief and works agency in Gaza during Cast Lead, explain how Israel knew the exact locations of their buildings and still went ahead and bombed them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1NCyAK3rDA
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 26, 2012, 04:03:15 PM
No more comparable than than South Africa and Israel.

Israel is unquestionably comparable to apartheid South Africa. Both are states where rights are conferred based on blood. Israel wouldn't even dispute that, so why would anyone else?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 04:57:13 PM
There are many courageous Israeli's who refuse to serve in the IDF, and they usually all go to jail. Another group of people are current IDF soldiers who refuse to take part. 550 of the put their names to the following statement:

We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.

We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF's human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel's defense.

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 05:00:49 PM
Has anyone got a problem with me quoting the ultra zionist Guardian?  ::)



Israel is hostile towards Arabs, but it is not an apartheid state

My experience of apartheid in South Africa leads me to think a survey of Israeli attitudes towards Arabs has been spun too far




Benjamin Pogrund

guardian.co.uk, Friday 26 October 2012 16.32 BST



That Israel's Jewish public has moved sharply to the right in recent years is well known. There's a rightwing government to prove it – and so beyond challenge is Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and so confident about his hold on power, that he has called early elections for January. Indeed the government will shift even further to the right with this week's dramatic announcement that Netanyahu's Likud party will join forces for the elections with the foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu (Israel Our Home).

Lieberman, who speaks for many of the Russian immigrants who form about 20% of the population, stands well to the right of even the rightwing Likud, so Netanyahu could run into problems with some of his own members in addition to their resentment at being pushed down the list for parliamentary seats. If the link endures greater curtailment of civil liberties can be expected, harsher attitudes towards Israeli Arabs who also form about 20% of the population, and less influence for Jewish religious parties.

Even with all this, the extent of the hostility expressed by Israeli Jews towards the country's Arab citizens, reported in an opinion survey this week, still comes as a shock: among much else, 42% said they don't want their children in the same school class with Arab children and 42% don't want to live in the same building with Arabs.

A second look moderates the shock. The survey notes that those with the strongest anti-Arab prejudices are religious and ultra-Orthodox Jews – and this is no surprise. Rabbis incite feelings against Arabs and issue circulars urging Jews not to rent or sell property to Arabs.

The ultra-Orthodox go further and not only shun Arabs but, perhaps even more, fellow Jews and especially those who are secular. The ultra-Orthodox keep their children in their own separate schools and live in their own separate neighbourhoods. Not only do they keep seculars and Arabs, and indeed the whole world, at bay but they also discriminate among themselves: many Ashkenazim (Jews of Western origin) view Sephardim (Jews who originate mainly from Arab countries) as less "pure" in their practice of Judaism and thus some Ashkenazi schools for girls impose a quota for Sephardim.

The survey's picture is very different for the secular – who form the majority of Israel's Jews: 73% did not object to having Arabs in their children's school, and 68% would live in an apartment building alongside Arabs.

These are remarkably positive views in light of the effect of the Palestinian suicide bombings during the Second Intifada in driving many Israeli Jews to the right, plus the continuing threats to Israel's existence by Iran and Palestinian militants and their supporters in the world. The firing of rockets and mortars – more than 80 this week – at southern Israel from the Gaza Strip by Hamas and others adds to antipathy towards Palestinians. Rightwing leaders gain support by playing on Jewish fears.

The survey's handling of Jewish views about the West Bank, based on a hypothetical annexation by Israel, raises questions about the way it was conducted and how the results were presented to the public: 69% of Israeli Jews, according to the survey, would oppose giving the West Bank's 2.5 million Palestinians the vote inside Israel. The summary of the survey is headlined: "In case of annexation, most Jews will support apartheid."

I know about apartheid. I was born in South Africa and spent 26 years as a journalist specialising in reporting apartheid; I have also written several books about it. I only left South Africa because my newspaper, the Rand Daily Mail, of which I was then deputy editor, was closed down by its commercial owners under pressure from the government. We paid the price for being the country's leading voice against apartheid.

I also am familiar with Israel. I have lived in Jerusalem since 1997 and for more than 12 years was founder director of the Yakar Center for Social Concern whose purpose was to promote dialogue between Jews and Christians, Jews and Muslims, and Israelis and Palestinians. I was surprised by the survey's findings: could it really be true that most Jews in Israel support apartheid?

Scratch this a little bit and there is a much simpler explanation than alleged "apartheid" for so many opposing giving Palestinians the vote: to do so would, in demographic terms, mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state; on the other hand, denying Palestinians the vote in a one-nation state would end Israel's democratic basis.

With all the survey's references to "apartheid" it cannot be said how those interviewed understood the word. Was it explained to them? How?

The apartheid theme was projected strongly in Haaretz, Israel's liberal newspaper. The writer, Gideon Levy, is famed for his exposes of the evils of occupation; he is also one of the small, perhaps tiny, number of Israeli journalists and academics who seek to pin the "apartheid" tag on Israel.

He wrote that, "a sweeping 74% majority is in favour of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank". But the sentence that follows needs to be noted: 24% believed separate roads were "a good situation" and 54% believed they were "a necessary situation". Decoded, this gets to the heart of the issue of the separate roads which Israel has built for some settlements. Critics say this is apartheid. But as the 54% indicate, they see it as a security issue; that is, it is the (expensive and extravagant) way to counter drive-by and roadside shootings which have killed many settlers. Nor (and this is little understood) are the roads only for Jews: the cars allowed on it are those with Israeli black and yellow number plates, irrespective of whether the driver is an Israeli Jew or Arab; the barred cars are those with Palestinian green and white plates.

Levy's report said that the survey had been commissioned by the US-based New Israel Fund's Yisraela Goldblum Fund. But the New Israel Fund, a major player in fostering equality and democracy in Israel, quickly announced that it had nothing to do with the survey. With equal speed its deputy communications director, Noam Shelef, wrote in New York's Daily Beast that the survey actually shows that Israelis want to separate themselves from the West Bank: "So, claiming the poll demonstrates support for 'apartheid' is spin at its worst." He said it "seems to amount to a misrepresentation of the data".


Whatever attitudes might be claimed for Israel's Jewish public the situation on the ground does not support accusations of apartheid. The Arab population, some 20%, certainly suffers discrimination but to liken their lot to apartheid South Africa is baseless, indeed ridiculous. Arabs have the vote, which in itself makes them fundamentally different from South Africa's black population under apartheid. And even the current rightwing government says that it wants to overcome Arab disadvantage and promises action to upgrade education and housing and increase job opportunities. Of course time will show how genuine it is.
The West Bank is a linked but separate issue: it's a military occupation which, in its nature, is violent and discriminatory. Trying to put an erroneous apartheid label on it confuses and distorts and is propagandistic.

Why do I dismiss the apartheid analogies so emphatically? Because I straddle both apartheid South Africa and Israel today and have knowledge of the good and the ill in both societies.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 05:02:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 04:57:13 PM
There are many courageous Israeli's who refuse to serve in the IDF, and they usually all go to jail. Another group of people are current IDF soldiers who refuse to take part. 550 of the put their names to the following statement:

We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.

We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF's human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel's defense.

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

When the settlers go to the Wailing wall they pray the Shema like the rest of their people. It is the holiest prayer in Judaism. 

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/706162/jewish/Translation.htm

"And it will be, if you will diligently obey My commandments which I enjoin upon you this day, to love the L-rd your G-d and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, I will give rain for your land at the proper time, the early rain and the late rain, and you will gather in your grain, your wine and your oil. And I will give grass in your fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be sated. Take care lest your heart be lured away, and you turn astray and worship alien gods and bow down to them. For then the L-rd's wrath will flare up against you, and He will close the heavens so that there will be no rain and the earth will not yield its produce, and you will swiftly perish from the good land which the L-rd gives you. "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfF6-TkAnBM


The settlements are an alien god. Torture is an alien god.
There was a similar incident with a golden calf a while ago.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 26, 2012, 04:03:15 PM
No more comparable than than South Africa and Israel.

Israel is unquestionably comparable to apartheid South Africa. Both are states where rights are conferred based on blood. Israel wouldn't even dispute that, so why would anyone else?


Good article for you Deiseach

Address by President Nelson Mandela at the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People in 1997

http://anc.org.za/show.php?id=3384
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: deiseach on October 26, 2012, 05:20:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 26, 2012, 05:00:49 PM
Has anyone got a problem with me quoting the ultra zionist Guardian?  ::)

Not at all. The author lists numerous examples of the nature of Israel as an apartheid state. After all that, his conclusion seems to be it's not an apartheid state because 1) some Arabs have the vote and 2) it just isn't, okay? I don't think you read it.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 26, 2012, 07:11:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 26, 2012, 04:28:31 PM
When Israel bombed the UN buildings and schools in Gaza during Cast Lead, their spokesman, Mark Regev, came on TV and said they responded to fire from these locations. We knew all along they were lying, and today they have admitted to lying. What else did they lie about?

This is Mark Regev telling said lies to Paxman on Newsnight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9wv0giW1elo

This is his interview with Jon Snow where Jon cuts him off at the end due to his lies, complete with sub titles to explain what Mark is really saying !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMd_js_oQAk

This is Irishman John Ging, the head of the UN relief and works agency in Gaza during Cast Lead, explain how Israel knew the exact locations of their buildings and still went ahead and bombed them.

Thanks for the Regev Links, GHD

This internet thing is fabulous. 

"Israel uses no weapons that are illegal under international law" " we are conducting our internal investigations"
"We take such allegations extremely seriously"

What a lying b*stard

But what would you expect, frankly?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 28, 2012, 04:24:28 PM

Saudi Arabia Funds Mossad Anti-Iran Operations'

An article posted by a former CBS News editor claims that none other than Saudi Arabia helps fund Israeli Mossad operations against Iran.


AAFont Size
By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 10/28/2012, 1:25 PM




Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah

Kingdom of Saudi Arabia


An article posted by a former CBS News producer Barry Lando claims that none other than Saudi Arabia helps fund Israeli Mossad operations against Iran.

"A Strange Alliance: Are the Saudis Bankrolling Israel's Mossad?" appears on his blog. Lando's source is named only as "a friend, with good sources in the Israeli government."

He wrote, "The head of Israel's Mossad has made several trips to deal with his counterparts in Saudi Arabia-one of the results: an agreement that the Saudis would bankroll the series of assassinations of several of Iran's top nuclear experts that have occurred over the past couple of years.

"The amount involved, my friend claims, was $1 billion dollars. A sum, he says, the Saudis considered cheap for the damage done to Iran's nuclear program."

Lando admitted that "the tale sounds preposterous" but added, "On the other hand. it makes eminent sense. The murky swamp of Middle East politics has nothing to do with the easy slogans and 30-second sound bites of presidential debates."

Israel and Saudi Arabia have at least one thing in common: neither country wants to allow Ahmadinejad to obtain nuclear capability.

Lando noted that the claim of the strange alliance "also makes perfect sense, that, in retaliation for the cyber attacks on their centrifuges, the Iranians reportedly launched their own cyber attack on a Saudi state-owned target: Saudi Aramco, the world's most valuable company."

Aramco's computer system suffered a massive cyber attack in August, and American intelligence officials have blamed Iran.

"A report earlier this year by Tel Aviv University cites Saudi Arabia as the last hope and defense line for Israel," Lando wrote. "With most of Israel's traditional allies in the region sent packing or undermined by the Arab Spring, the Saudis are the Jewish State's last chance to protect its political interests in the Arab world."

Lando has long experience on Iran. He recently wrote a book called "Web of Deceit: The History of Western Complicity in Iraq, from Churchill to Kennedy to George W. Bush."

He charged on Counterpunch earlier this year that Israel, the United States and Iran do not understand each other's motives while "their advisors are engaged in an incredibly dangerous three-way game of blind man's bluff."

He said he personally ran into American ignorance in 1980 when he was producing '60 Minutes'.

"I was struck by the total inability of Americans—even at the highest level—to understand the emotions and history that drove the hatred of all things American that had exploded in Iran with the fall of the Shah," Lando wrote.

"Just up West 57th street from CBS News, for instance, was a huge billboard with the diabolical image of Khomeini glowering down on New York. I suggested we do a report to give Americans a better idea of what was driving Iran's revolutionaries and their violent feelings against the United States....

"I stitched together a tough report with Mike Wallace based on a series of interviews in New York and Washington.' Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was charged by one interviewee "for turning a blind eye to the excesses of the Shah, and refusing to have any contact with the opposition groups."

Lando also reported that classified U.S. documents exposed by Iran "showed that American diplomats based in Teheran had warned Washington months earlier of the threat of a possible hostage-taking – particularly if the U.S. allowed the despised Shah to come to America for medical treatment, as the U.S. ultimately did. Those warnings had been completely ignored by Washington."

However, before the program was broadcast, President Jimmy Carter called the president of CBS News "to try to convince him not to broadcast the report. It would, he said, undermine U.S. negotiations with Iran at a very delicate time."

CBS did not agree to back down but agreed to change the report's title from "Should the U.S. Apologize?" to a more neutral "The Iran File."

"It was difficult to understand how our report could upset the hostage negotiations," wrote Lando. "We were not revealing any secrets to Iran. The Iranians already knew well the role of the U.S. in their own history. The people we were informing were 20 million Americans — who didn't understand what was really roiling Iran.

"And still don't."



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161407 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161407)

At least the Saudis know the right side to be on.  ;)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 28, 2012, 05:52:38 PM
Israeli embassy slurs Vincent Browne as an antisemite for saying


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/i-am-not-antisemitic-claims-vincent-browne-3276074.html

"Israel is the cancer in foreign affairs. It polarises the Islamic community of the world against the rest of the world"

Meanwhile over in Chicago , Rahm Emanuel tells Israel that Obama has managed to isolate Iran from the est of the world as a service to
Israel


http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/focus-u-s-a/rahm-emanuel-to-haaretz-thanks-to-obama-iran-is-isolated-from-the-world.premium-1.472638


"Emanuel replies that President Obama has been "a very good friend of Israel" on each of the key issues concerning the two countries' relationship: The peace process, Iran, the Arab spring, military cooperation and common values.

On Iran, Emanuel said that "there is an appreciation of Israel's sense of threat of Iran acquiring a nuclear weapon – and when he (Obama) went into the Oval office, when it came to Iran and the international community, America was isolated – in three and a half years, the tables have been turned, and Iran is isolated from the world. That's because of the leadership of the President.""

And Emanuel is not a co religionist of VB either
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 28, 2012, 06:40:18 PM

US Slams 'Irresponsible and Unacceptable' Israel Boycott

Amb. Susan Rice slammed Richard Falk's call for a boycott of companies accused of profiting from "illegal Israeli settlements."


AAFont Size
By Rachel Hirshfeld
First Publish: 10/28/2012, 9:26 AM




U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice

Israel news photo: Flash 90


The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice, on Thursday slammed United Nations special rapporteur Richard Falk's call for a boycott of private companies accused of profiting from the so-called "illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank" as being "irresponsible and unacceptable."

Falk singled out U.S. companies including Caterpillar, Motorola and Hewlett-Packard along with other multinationals in a report to the U.N. on Thursday.

"My main recommendation is that the businesses highlighted in the report — as well as the many other businesses that are profiting from the Israeli settlement enterprise — should be boycotted, until they bring their operations into line with international human rights and humanitarian law and standards," Falk said in a statement emailed by the UN.

"In short, businesses should not breach international humanitarian law provisions. Nor should they be complicit in any breaches," he charged. "If they do, they may be subject to criminal or civil liability. And this liability can be extended to individual employees of such businesses."

The U.S. delegation has repeatedly clashed with Falk over his anti-Israeli bias and his suggestion of a U.S. cover-up in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

"Throughout his tenure as Special Rapporteur, Mr. Falk has been highly biased and made offensive statements, including outrageous comments on the 9/11 attacks," Rice said.

"Mr. Falk's recommendations do nothing to further a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and indeed poison the environment for peace. His continued service in the role of a UN Special Rapporteur is deeply regrettable and only damages the credibility of the UN," Rice added.

Falk is an American professor emeritus of international law at Princeton University and was appointed as special rapporteur in 2008 to a six-year term.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161395 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161395)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 29, 2012, 10:10:38 AM
BDB- do you honestly think the Israelis are interested in the 2 state solution?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/ahead-of-israel-election-pa-bid-in-un-may-push-netanyahu-to-harsh-unilateral-reaction-diplomats-say.premium-1.472367

The PA is expected to seek a vote in the UN General Assembly next month, at which point Israel's election campaign will be in full swing, with several parties holding primaries in late November. This is liable to lead ministers and Knesset members to vie with each other over who can offer a tougher response.
Thus even delaying the vote by a few months, until after the Israeli elections, would help prevent a disaster, ministry officials say.
"Even today, the atmosphere in the Prime Minister's Bureau is one of 'this time, we'll show them what's what,'" said a former senior official who was involved in discussions on the matter between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his aides. "Likud ministers will pressure him, the polls will scare him. And from there it's not far to a response that would bring about a violent conflagration or the collapse of the Palestinian Authority."
Senior Foreign Ministry officials and Israeli diplomats abroad have been warning of a scenario in which Israel's government "goes crazy" the day after the UN vote. And far from being insulted, politicians are encouraging this campaign.
"We suggest that the European Union take Israel's political needs into account," said a document ministry staffers prepared for Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon before his meeting this week with EU envoy Andreas Reinicke. "Israel is entering a campaign season, and consideration must be given to the fact that its government, too, is liable to find itself under political pressure to respond suitably to unilateral Palestinian moves."
A similar briefing paper was prepared for Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman before his meeting with EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton on Wednesday, and ambassadors worldwide have been asked to give their host governments similar messages.
A senior government official said both Netanyahu and Lieberman warned Ashton that the PA's UN bid would be a "game-changing move" that would spark unilateral Israeli measures in response. "We're asking all these states to make the dangerous ramifications of this move clear to the Palestinians," he added.
Lieberman also told Ashton that the Foreign Ministry has prepared a "toolbox" of possible responses, ranging from relatively mild steps - like revoking PA officials' VIP passes or canceling work permits for Palestinians in Israel - to severe measures like approving construction of thousands of new houses in the settlements or halting tax transfers to the PA. The latter could result in the PA's financial collapse.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 29, 2012, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: seafoid on October 28, 2012, 05:52:38 PM
Israeli embassy slurs Vincent Browne as an antisemite for saying


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/i-am-not-antisemitic-claims-vincent-browne-3276074.html

"Israel is the cancer in foreign affairs. It polarises the Islamic community of the world against the rest of the world"


Vincent fell into the trap of been labelled anti semitic just for been critical of Israel. It is the standard response whenever critism is levelled against them.
Much the same as anyone who is critical of Stormont is now labelled a dissident.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 29, 2012, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 29, 2012, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: seafoid on October 28, 2012, 05:52:38 PM
Israeli embassy slurs Vincent Browne as an antisemite for saying


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/i-am-not-antisemitic-claims-vincent-browne-3276074.html

"Israel is the cancer in foreign affairs. It polarises the Islamic community of the world against the rest of the world"


Vincent fell into the trap of been labelled anti semitic just for been critical of Israel. It is the standard response whenever critism is levelled against them.
Much the same as anyone who is critical of Stormont is now labelled a dissident.
I think the term " antisemite "has become so diluted now through Israeli misuse that it has lost most of its meaning.
It's like "the boy who cried wolf". 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 29, 2012, 04:47:14 PM
The whole raison d'etre of both Hamas and PLO/Fatah is the destruction of Israel. Their ethos has never changed in this matter, so what makes you think they have any intention of allowing the Israelis to live in peace behind ANY border, pre 67 or otherwise.

Do either of you honestly believe that the Palestinians will let Israel have peace if they were to give up Gaza, the west bank and east Jerusalem? Honestly?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 29, 2012, 05:05:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 29, 2012, 04:47:14 PM
The whole raison d'etre of both Hamas and PLO/Fatah is the destruction of Israel. Their ethos has never changed in this matter, so what makes you think they have any intention of allowing the Israelis to live in peace behind ANY border, pre 67 or otherwise.

Do either of you honestly believe that the Palestinians will let Israel have peace if they were to give up Gaza, the west bank and east Jerusalem? Honestly?
I do. They have offered Israel full recognition and a demilitarised Palestine but the Israeli Jews want all the land because as Abraham Foxman of AIPAC says they have a covenant with God and they are God's people (WTF).

Fatah is the Palestine Liberation Organisation and Hamas means the Islamic resistance movement.
Anyway, the fact is that 50% of the people living in greater Israel are non Jews and have virtually no rights.
And will Israel be able to pull this off indefinitely? Of course it won't   
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on October 29, 2012, 06:05:22 PM
There has been a case I have been following involving 5 men who have just had their final appeal to the Supreme Court dismissed, and they are to stay in jail. One of them was sentenced to 65 years. Their crime was to provide humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. It is a disgraceful decision, and one that makes a mockery out of US justice.

Below is a background to their case.

The Holy Land Five Case


by NOOR ELASHI

As we approach the tenth anniversary of 9/11, and my father remains incarcerated in a modern-day internment camp, the time in which we live begins to feel less like 2011 and more like 1942. But this week could determine whether today's justice system is capable of rewriting the sad chapters of our history. I say this week because on Thursday, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals will hear the long-awaited oral arguments in the Holy Land Foundation case, involving what was once our country's largest Muslim charitable organization.

Meet my father, Ghassan Elashi. The co-founder of the HLF. Inmate number 29687-177, sentenced to 65 years in prison for his charity work in Palestine. He is an American citizen from Gaza City, who before his imprisonment, took part in the immigration rally in Downtown Dallas, joining the half a million people wearing white, chanting ¡Si, se puede! The prison walls have not hindered his voice, as he writes to me, heartbroken about the homes destroyed during the earthquake in Haiti, the young protesters killed indiscriminately in Syria, the children lost to the famine in Somalia. Most frequently, he writes to me about the Japanese-American internment.

Now meet Fred T. Korematsu, who after Peal Harbor was among the 120,000 Japanese-Americans ordered to live in internment camps. This was in 1942, when President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, which authorized the military detainment of Japanese-Americans to ten concentration camps during World War II. Mr. Korematsu defied orders to be interned, because he viewed the forced removal as unconstitutional. So on May 30, 1942, Mr. Korematsu was arrested. His case was argued all the way to the Supreme Court, which ultimately ruled against him, stating that his jailing was justified due to military necessity.

Nearly forty years later, in 1983, Mr. Korematsu's case was reopened, and on Nov. 10, 1983, the conviction was overturned. Judge Marilyn Hall Patel notably said, "It stands as a caution that, in times of international hostility and antagonisms, our institutions, legislative, executive and judicial, must be prepared to exercise their authority to protect all citizens from the petty fears and prejudices that are so easily aroused."

Fast-forward six years. It's already 1989, when my father co-finds the HLF, which becomes a prominent American Muslim charity that provides relief—through clothes, food, blankets and medicine—to Palestinians and other populations in desperate need. Then, in 1996, President Clinton signs the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act, giving birth to the Material Support Statute, a law that in time would come under fire by civil libertarians for profiling and targeting Arab and Muslim Americans.

Two years later, in 1998, Clinton awards Mr. Korematsu with the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest citizen honor, condemning Mr. Korematsu's persecution as a shameful moment in our history.Three years later, the towers fall.

And President Bush declares a "War on Terror."

In 2001, President Bush signs the Patriot Act, which strengthens the Material Support Statue. The law's language is so vague that it gives prosecutors the authority to argue that humanitarian aid to designated terrorist organizations could be indirect, and therefore, a crime.

In my father's case, he is charged with conspiring to give Material Support in the form of humanitarian aid to Palestinian distribution centers called zakat committees. Prosecutors admit the zakat committees on the indictment were not designated terrorist groups, but according to the indictment released in 2004, these zakat committees are "controlled by" or act "on behalf of" Hamas, which was designated in 1995. Their theory is that by providing charity to zakat committees, the HLF helped Hamas win the "hearts and minds" of the Palestinian people.

The HLF case was tried in 2007, lasting three months, and after 19 days of deliberations, the jury deadlocked on most counts. The judge declared a mistrial and the case was tried the following year.

In 2008, after essentially the same arguments, the retrial ended with the jury returning all guilty verdicts, and in 2009, my father was sentenced to 65 years in prison, for essentially giving humanitarian aid to Palestinians.

In 2010, my father was transferred to a "Communications Management Unit" in Marion, Illinois—the aforementioned modern-day internment camp. The CMU received the nickname "Guantanamo North" by National Public Radio since two-thirds of its inmates are Middle Eastern or Muslim. The purpose of this prison—which has another branch in Terre Haute, Indiana—is to closely monitor inmates and limit their communications with their families, attorneys and the media. Thus, I only get to hear my father's voice once every two weeks, for fifteen minutes. And our visitations take place behind an obtrusive Plexiglass wall.

My father and his co-defendants—now called the Holy Land Five—are in the final stages of the appeal as the oral arguments approach on Thursday. In the Fifth Circuit Court in New Orleans, defense attorneys will urge the panel of three justices to reverse the HLF convictions based on errors that took place in the trial process.

According to the appellate brief, there's a major fact that undermines the prosecution's claim that Hamas controlled the zakat committees: "The United States Agency for International Development—which had strict instructions not to deal with Hamas—provided funds over many years to zakat committees named in the indictment, including the Jenin, Nablus, and Qalqilia committees," writes my father's attorney, John Cline. He continues stating that in 2004, upon the release of the HLF indictment, "USAID provided $47,000 to the Qalqilia zakat committee."

Furthermore, defense attorneys will argue that the district court:

a) Violated the right to due process by allowing a key witness to testify without providing his real name, thereby abusing my father's right to confront his witness. They are referring to an Israeli intelligence officer who became the first person in U.S. history permitted to testify as an expert witness using a pseudonym.

b) Abused its discretion by allowing "inflammatory evidence of little or no probative value," which included multiple scenes of suicide bombings.

c) Deviated from the sentencing guidelines when they sentenced my father to 65 years.

When putting the lawyerly language aside, human rights attorneys have deemed the HLF case as purely political, perpetrated by the Bush administration. Likewise, the decision to intern Japanese-Americans was based on "race prejudice, war hysteria and failure of political leadership," according to a 1982 report by the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians.

I can only hope that my father's vindication won't take 40 years as it did for Mr. Korematsu. Let us learn from our old wrongs
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 29, 2012, 06:50:46 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 29, 2012, 06:05:22 PM
There has been a case I have been following involving 5 men who have just had their final appeal to the Supreme Court dismissed, and they are to stay in jail. One of them was sentenced to 65 years. Their crime was to provide humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. It is a disgraceful decision, and one that makes a mockery out of US justice.

Below is a background to their case.

The Holy Land Five Case


by NOOR ELASHI

As we approach the tenth anniversary of 9/11, and my father remains incarcerated in a modern-day internment camp, the time in which we live begins to feel less like 2011 and more like 1942. But this week could determine whether today's justice system is capable of rewriting the sad chapters of our history. I say this week because on Thursday, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals will hear the long-awaited oral arguments in the Holy Land Foundation case, involving what was once our country's largest Muslim charitable organization.

Meet my father, Ghassan Elashi. The co-founder of the HLF. Inmate number 29687-177, sentenced to 65 years in prison for his charity work in Palestine. He is an American citizen from Gaza City, who before his imprisonment, took part in the immigration rally in Downtown Dallas, joining the half a million people wearing white, chanting ¡Si, se puede! The prison walls have not hindered his voice, as he writes to me, heartbroken about the homes destroyed during the earthquake in Haiti, the young protesters killed indiscriminately in Syria, the children lost to the famine in Somalia. Most frequently, he writes to me about the Japanese-American internment.

Now meet Fred T. Korematsu, who after Peal Harbor was among the 120,000 Japanese-Americans ordered to live in internment camps. This was in 1942, when President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, which authorized the military detainment of Japanese-Americans to ten concentration camps during World War II. Mr. Korematsu defied orders to be interned, because he viewed the forced removal as unconstitutional. So on May 30, 1942, Mr. Korematsu was arrested. His case was argued all the way to the Supreme Court, which ultimately ruled against him, stating that his jailing was justified due to military necessity.

Nearly forty years later, in 1983, Mr. Korematsu's case was reopened, and on Nov. 10, 1983, the conviction was overturned. Judge Marilyn Hall Patel notably said, "It stands as a caution that, in times of international hostility and antagonisms, our institutions, legislative, executive and judicial, must be prepared to exercise their authority to protect all citizens from the petty fears and prejudices that are so easily aroused."

Fast-forward six years. It's already 1989, when my father co-finds the HLF, which becomes a prominent American Muslim charity that provides relief—through clothes, food, blankets and medicine—to Palestinians and other populations in desperate need. Then, in 1996, President Clinton signs the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act, giving birth to the Material Support Statute, a law that in time would come under fire by civil libertarians for profiling and targeting Arab and Muslim Americans.

Two years later, in 1998, Clinton awards Mr. Korematsu with the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest citizen honor, condemning Mr. Korematsu's persecution as a shameful moment in our history.Three years later, the towers fall.

And President Bush declares a "War on Terror."

In 2001, President Bush signs the Patriot Act, which strengthens the Material Support Statue. The law's language is so vague that it gives prosecutors the authority to argue that humanitarian aid to designated terrorist organizations could be indirect, and therefore, a crime.

In my father's case, he is charged with conspiring to give Material Support in the form of humanitarian aid to Palestinian distribution centers called zakat committees. Prosecutors admit the zakat committees on the indictment were not designated terrorist groups, but according to the indictment released in 2004, these zakat committees are "controlled by" or act "on behalf of" Hamas, which was designated in 1995. Their theory is that by providing charity to zakat committees, the HLF helped Hamas win the "hearts and minds" of the Palestinian people.

The HLF case was tried in 2007, lasting three months, and after 19 days of deliberations, the jury deadlocked on most counts. The judge declared a mistrial and the case was tried the following year.

In 2008, after essentially the same arguments, the retrial ended with the jury returning all guilty verdicts, and in 2009, my father was sentenced to 65 years in prison, for essentially giving humanitarian aid to Palestinians.

In 2010, my father was transferred to a "Communications Management Unit" in Marion, Illinois—the aforementioned modern-day internment camp. The CMU received the nickname "Guantanamo North" by National Public Radio since two-thirds of its inmates are Middle Eastern or Muslim. The purpose of this prison—which has another branch in Terre Haute, Indiana—is to closely monitor inmates and limit their communications with their families, attorneys and the media. Thus, I only get to hear my father's voice once every two weeks, for fifteen minutes. And our visitations take place behind an obtrusive Plexiglass wall.

My father and his co-defendants—now called the Holy Land Five—are in the final stages of the appeal as the oral arguments approach on Thursday. In the Fifth Circuit Court in New Orleans, defense attorneys will urge the panel of three justices to reverse the HLF convictions based on errors that took place in the trial process.

According to the appellate brief, there's a major fact that undermines the prosecution's claim that Hamas controlled the zakat committees: "The United States Agency for International Development—which had strict instructions not to deal with Hamas—provided funds over many years to zakat committees named in the indictment, including the Jenin, Nablus, and Qalqilia committees," writes my father's attorney, John Cline. He continues stating that in 2004, upon the release of the HLF indictment, "USAID provided $47,000 to the Qalqilia zakat committee."

Furthermore, defense attorneys will argue that the district court:

a) Violated the right to due process by allowing a key witness to testify without providing his real name, thereby abusing my father's right to confront his witness. They are referring to an Israeli intelligence officer who became the first person in U.S. history permitted to testify as an expert witness using a pseudonym.

b) Abused its discretion by allowing "inflammatory evidence of little or no probative value," which included multiple scenes of suicide bombings.

c) Deviated from the sentencing guidelines when they sentenced my father to 65 years.

When putting the lawyerly language aside, human rights attorneys have deemed the HLF case as purely political, perpetrated by the Bush administration. Likewise, the decision to intern Japanese-Americans was based on "race prejudice, war hysteria and failure of political leadership," according to a 1982 report by the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians.

I can only hope that my father's vindication won't take 40 years as it did for Mr. Korematsu. Let us learn from our old wrongs


Care to answer the question?



Quote
The whole raison d'etre of both Hamas and PLO/Fatah is the destruction of Israel. Their ethos has never changed in this matter, so what makes you think they have any intention of allowing the Israelis to live in peace behind ANY border, pre 67 or otherwise.

Do either of you honestly believe that the Palestinians will let Israel have peace if they were to give up Gaza, the west bank and east Jerusalem? Honestly?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 09:44:28 AM
BDB  This week you say

"The whole raison d'etre of both Hamas and PLO/Fatah is the destruction of Israel. Their ethos has never changed in this matter, so what makes you think they have any intention of allowing the Israelis to live in peace behind ANY border, pre 67 or otherwise."

Last week you said

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=22339.msg1169215#msg1169215
"Israel doesnt want the people to leave, it wants the headers who attack Israel to leave. But their military is a two edged sword. Without such a strong military, Israel would have been wiped out years ago. With it, they are overly militarised. As long as they feel threatened by their arab neighbours, they will maintain their military might. Catch 22."

So which is it? Are the Palestinian people housetrained enough to ready to live with Israel or not? 
Or do they deserve apartheid instead until they cop on ?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: thebigfella on October 30, 2012, 11:15:49 AM
I great to see the lads here have learned how to use cut and paste.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: ludermor on October 30, 2012, 11:41:14 AM
It is refreshing to get evenly balanced propaganda
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 01:35:22 PM
QuoteErrors and omissions excepted

The headline of a news article last week was misleading. Most Israelis do support an apartheid regime, but only if the occupied territories are annexed; however, most Israelis oppose such annexation.


By Gideon Levy| 04:09 29.10.12




This article is meant to fix a few mistakes. They shouldn't have happened; we must acknowledge them, apologize for them and fix them. They were not made intentionally, but as a result of neglect due to time pressure. Now is the time to make things right.

This is the headline from GHD and seafoid's favourite paper, where they try to justify lying about the Israeli people wanting to live in an apartheid state.

Gideon Levy is a liar, who makes up stories to suit his own agenda. Anyone who takes his stories at face value is nothing but a fool.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/errors-and-omissions-excepted.premium-1.472852 (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/errors-and-omissions-excepted.premium-1.472852)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 02:38:59 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 01:35:22 PM
QuoteErrors and omissions excepted

The headline of a news article last week was misleading. Most Israelis do support an apartheid regime, but only if the occupied territories are annexed; however, most Israelis oppose such annexation.


By Gideon Levy| 04:09 29.10.12




This article is meant to fix a few mistakes. They shouldn't have happened; we must acknowledge them, apologize for them and fix them. They were not made intentionally, but as a result of neglect due to time pressure. Now is the time to make things right.

This is the headline from GHD and seafoid's favourite paper, where they try to justify lying about the Israeli people wanting to live in an apartheid state.

Gideon Levy is a liar, who makes up stories to suit his own agenda. Anyone who takes his stories at face value is nothing but a fool.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/errors-and-omissions-excepted.premium-1.472852 (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/errors-and-omissions-excepted.premium-1.472852)
BDS

Ha'aretz is an Israeli newspaper.
It is owned by Israeli Jews.
They know their stuff.
I have the feeling you don't.

"Gideon Levy is a liar, who makes up stories to suit his own agenda"

Go on then. Prove he's a liar. What stories has he made up.- give me at least 10 and links and why you think he lied.

The really depressing fact for Israel is that so many Jews hate Palestinians.
Israel is supposed to be just like Europe. It is supposed to be a normal country. And it is far worse than Portadown ever was.   
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 02:40:08 PM
BDB

I just read the bit you highlighted

Most Israelis do support an apartheid regime, but only if the occupied territories are annexed; however, most Israelis oppose such annexation.

WTF are you on about ? - Is the "but" what you think is important?   
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 02:58:17 PM
QuoteThis article is meant to fix a few mistakes. They shouldn't have happened; we must acknowledge them, apologize for them and fix them.
Are you seriously that deluded by your hatred of everything Israeli, that you can't accept that he has admitted to not telling the truth?

The Sun is a British newspaper, so we must believe everything they write. After all, they are British and we aren't. They know what they're talking about.

Only an idiot would come up with that as an argument.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 03:10:20 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 02:58:17 PM
QuoteThis article is meant to fix a few mistakes. They shouldn't have happened; we must acknowledge them, apologize for them and fix them.
Are you seriously that deluded by your hatred of everything Israeli, that you can't accept that he has admitted to not telling the truth?

The Sun is a British newspaper, so we must believe everything they write. After all, they are British and we aren't. They know what they're talking about.

Only an idiot would come up with that as an argument.
did you read the whole article?

"This deviation from the important issue, this incitement against the mistakes, was done deliberately. It was intended to obscure the truth revealed by the survey, which justifiably has garnered harsh responses around the world. It was the final means of propaganda available to those who seek to blur the true image of Israeli society and paint an unrealistic, imaginary portrait instead.

The most important thing was, and remains, that a significant portion of Israel's Jewish society advocates positions that can only be described as nationalistic and racist. Nearly half of the respondents don't want an Arab neighbor or an Arab student in their child's class; a third don't want Arabs to vote; nearly half want to discriminate against Arabs living in the country. Isn't that enough to scare anyone who fears for the future of this country?

But the right wing and its GAAboard mouthpieces aren't interested in any of that. "

And Ha'aretz is equivalent to the Sun, is that what you believe? 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 03:29:50 PM
BDB

As Levy says,


Bring us another reliable poll that proves Israeli society is not as racist and nationalistic as depicted in this survey.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 04:40:27 PM





Ha'aretz's Apartheid Campaign Against Israel

October 28, 2012


Cross posted by Yishai Goldflam at CAMERA  (This is a translated version of the original which appeared at CAMERA's Hebrew site, Presspectiva.)

Amidst its financial hardships and declining Israeli readership, the Israeli daily, Ha'aretz, has upped its anti-Israel advocacy, engaging in a campaign to promote the apartheid canard about Israel. First, Akiva Eldar falsely alleged that the Israeli government had acknowledged Jews as the minority population residing between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, a claim he was forced to correct. Then Gideon Levy wrote an article bearing the sinister headline, "Survey: Most Israeli Jews support apartheid regime in Israel."

The online versions in English and Hebrew were subsequently changed slightly. And the print edition's English headline was "Survey: Most Israeli Jews advocate discrimination against Arabs."  This story was followed the next day by an article that attempted to solidify as fact supposed Jewish support for an apartheid regime, with the headline, "Arab MKs: Israeli Jews' support of apartheid is not surprising."

Levy's article claimed that according to a recent survey the majority of Israelis not only support apartheid, but also hold racist views towards Israeli Arabs and believe that apartheid already exists today in Israel. Predictably, the story spread like wildfire and was quoted in major media outlets such as London's The Guardian and The Independent, Toronto's Globe and Mail, Agence-France Presse, and dozens of other sites, blogs and forums.

Pro- and anti-Israel activists have spent the past two days debating the reliability of the survey, its wording and meaning, as well as the accuracy of Gideon Levy's article publicizing the poll. But most of those involved in the debate did not see the complete, original survey because it was not published anywhere, including in Levy's article. One notable exception was this in-depth analysis by Avi Mayer which relied upon the original poll. CAMERA/Presspectiva obtained a copy of the original survey, and compared it to Levy's article and Ha'aretz's headline to see whether or not they accurately reflected the survey.

Unsurprisingly, Levy's article was full of omissions and distortions. He apparently ignored the data that did not suit him and emphasized those that were in accord with his own well-known anti-Israel world view. At times, he completely reversed the survey's findings. The sensational headline represents, at best, Levy's interpretation of the survey and does not represent objective, factual reporting.

It also appears that the survey itself has its own share of problems – including the lack of clarity and hypothetical nature of the questions, no definition of terms that were used, limited answer choices, no correction for confounding factors, and general lack of explanation about what exactly was meant by the questions.

Yet even on the assumption that the survey was a valid one that was appropriately conducted, the results neither justify Ha'aretz's bombastic headlines, which seem to be part of a campaign to damage and delegitimize the Jewish state, nor the article itself that cherry-picks or otherwise misrepresents the results in order to reach the predetermined conclusion of the headline.

Levy Distorts

Levy's striking misrepresentations included the following:


A sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. A quarter – 24 percent – believe separate roads are "a good situation" and 50 percent believe they are "a necessary situation."

Levy conveniently omitted the original question and answers from the survey. They were:


17. In the territories, there are some roads where travel is permitted only to Israelis and others where travel is permitted only to Palestinians. Which of the following opinions are closest to your own: A. It is a good situation. B. It is not a good situation, but what can you do? C. It is not a good situation and it needs to be stopped.

24% – it is a good situation.

50% – it is not a good situation, but there is nothing that can be done.

17% – it is not a good situation and it needs to be stopped

If the answers are divided according to those who see it as "good" and those who see it as "not good," then 67% see it as a bad situation. But Levy did not bother to inform reader that the 50% of those who saw separate roads as "necessary" saw it as an undesirable situation.

When a "minority" becomes a "majority"

Levy devoted much of his fiery wrath to the alleged racism of Israeli Jews toward Israeli Arabs, but here too he distorted the results in order to make his case. Already in the third sentence of the article, he wrote:


A majority of Israeli Jews also explicitly favors discrimination against the state's Arab citizens...

Levy misled his readers. There are five questions in the survey relating to discrimination against Arabs. Below are the questions and results:


4. In your opinion, is it desirable or undesirable for Jews to receive priority over Arabs in government hiring? a

59% – desirable; 34% undesirable



5. In your opinion, is it desirable to enact a law that prevents Israeli Arabs from voting in the Knesset?
33% – desirable; 59% undesirable



7. Do you agree or disagree with the argument that the state needs to care more for its Jewish citizens than its Arab citizens?
49% – agree; 49% – disagree



8. Would it bother you if in your place of abode, for example in your apartment building, an Arab family also lived there?
42% – it would bother me; 53% – it would not bother me



9. Would it bother you if in one of your children's classrooms at school, there were also Arab children?
42% – it would bother me; 49% – it would not bother me

Does the overall picture obtained from these results support Levy's characterization of most Israeli Jews favoring discrimination against Israeli-Arabs? On the contrary. Most people reading these results would perceive just the opposite, that a majority of Israelis do not support discrimination against Arabs.

Moreover, there are confounding factors here that skew the numbers, making the majority a smaller one than might be expected.  For example, the highest percentages of negative answers to the questions about Arab children sharing a class room with their children and Arab families living in the same apartment building came from the group that self-identified as ultra-Orthodox Jews. This community tends to insulate their families from the outside world and would be expected to just as readily answer that they would not want their children sharing a classroom with secular Jews, or that they would want all their neighbors to share their same values and strictures. This artificially confounds the data. Israeli society is certainly not perfect, but it is a far cry from Levy's misrepresentation that most Israeli Jews openly and explicitly favor discrimination against Arabs.

Levy's misrepresentation was even worse in the commentary accompanying the main article, where he wrote:


Most Israelis do not want Arab voters for the Knesset, nor Arab neighbors at home, nor Arab students near the bookcases of Jewish texts in Jewish schools that teach Jewish heritage. And our camp will be pure, as pure of Arabs as possible and perhaps even more.

What is amazing about the above paragraph is that Levy chose precisely the three examples that demonstrate the opposite of the scenario he describes. Unfortunately, readers horrified at the "findings" described by Levy do not possess the tools to see that the author was deceiving them, because the results of the survey were not included.

The issue of Levy's selective reporting is evident throughout the article, in which he introduced the "negative" data without mentioning the "positive" data.

For example, when he wrote that "a third of the respondents support a law that would prevent Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset, " he did not bother to mention that 59% oppose such a law.

Similarly, when Levy wrote that "36 percent support transferring some of the Arab towns from Israel to the PA, in exchange for keeping some of the West Bank settlements," he did not bother to note that even more– 48% – oppose it. And when he wrote that "42 percent don't want to live in the same building with Arabs and 42 percent don't want their children in the same class with Arab children," he did not bother to note that even more – 53% and 49% respectively – would not mind.

The headline in Ha'aretz's print edition trumpeted that "Most Israeli Jews advocate discrimination against Arabs" – a conclusion clearly not borne out by the results of the survey. But this was evidently of no concern to editors who opted for a sensational headline that presented Israel in the worst possible light, no matter how false it was.

Support for Apartheid?

The subject of apartheid – the focus of Ha'aretz's headline and on which Levy places his primary emphasis, as well as the charge that was disseminated around the world – takes up just 3 out of the 17 questions in the survey and is divided into two separate allegations by Levy:

a) the majority of Israelis support an apartheid regime; and

b) most Israelis think that Israel is already an apartheid state

Levy shares an honest point acknowledged by the pollsters that provides a key to understanding the problematic nature of the above allegations:


The survey conductors say perhaps the term "apartheid" was not clear enough to some interviewees.

Indeed, in the three questions dealing with the concept of apartheid, there is no definition or explanation of what is meant by the term "apartheid." This raises the question of how the pollsters concluded, on the one hand, that the respondents "support apartheid" even while admitting that the term may not have been clear to the respondents. This logical failure would have raised a red flag to responsible journalists. That it did not give Levy reason to pause is testament to his lack of journalistic ethics.

Levy began the article by stating:


Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.

It is an emphatic conclusion, but not what was asked in the survey. The only question addressing annexation of the territories was Question 16:


16. If Israel annexes the territories of Judea and Samaria, in your opinion, is it necessary to give 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote in the Knesset?

While 69% of respondents answered no, the survey's question addressed a hypothetical scenario that had no bearing on the current situation. Moreover, there were more interviewees who responded that they oppose annexation than those who responded that they support it (48% oppose, 38% support). In other words, almost half the respondents were forced to choose an answer about a hypothetical scenario that they explicitly oppose. Yet Ha'aretz's online edition turned this finding into a headline without noting that it only described a hypothetical scenario that was already widely rejected by respondents. The online headline was subsequently changed to include the word "would" presumably to account for the hypothetical nature of the result: "Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel" but the damage wrought by the original headline had already been done, demonstrating the success of Ha'aretz's apparent campaign to portray Israeli Jews as racists who support apartheid.

What about the claim that the majority of Israelis believe that an apartheid regime already exists in the country? Levy wrote:


Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent ) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs.

This is what the survey says:


11. Which of the following opinions is closest to yours? A. There is no apartheid at all in Israel. B. There is apartheid in some areas. C. There is apartheid in many areas.

31% – There is no apartheid at all in Israel.

39% – There is apartheid in some areas.

19% – There is apartheid in many areas.

Beyond Levy's ignoring of the survey's nuance, with his blanket assertion that Israel "practices apartheid against Arabs," are the problems inherent in the survey question itself – which Levy similarly ignores. What is "apartheid in some areas" or "apartheid in many areas"? The term "apartheid," contrary to its superficial use in the survey, and contrary to the concept of "discrimination" has a very clear and precise meaning: According to the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, it refers to "an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." (See more at "Israeli Apartheid Week")

There is no such thing as "some" apartheid. There is either apartheid or no apartheid. Apartheid is not simply discrimination – the sort that exists in almost every country around the world including Israel, which is precisely why the term was created specifically to describe South Africa's regime.

Anyone who understands the meaning of the word "apartheid" cannot reliably answer such an illogical question that seeks to reveal whether Israel practices apartheid "in some areas" or "in many areas." Of even greater concern is the impact of Levy's assertion "that 58% of Israeli citizens support apartheid" on those readers in London, New York, or Berlin who actually know what real apartheid is.

Despite the fact, that by any parameter, there is no connection between any Israeli policy and the South African apartheid regime, international activists are currently attempting to brand Israel with this smear in order to convince good and caring people that Israel is a second South Africa and should be treated as such – with boycott, divestment and sanctions. The Ha'aretz articles of the last few days indicate that the Israeli paper, too, seeks to demonize Israel as apartheid.

The fact that the survey question did not define "apartheid" or explain to respondents the difference between "apartheid" and "discrimination," and the fact that the pollsters admitted that the term was not clear to all respondents suggests that respondents took the term "apartheid" to mean "discrimination" and understood it as simply a synonym for the latter. Moreover, the absurd response options of apartheid in "some" areas or in "many" areas also would suggest that the poll writers, intentionally or not, misled respondents into thinking that "apartheid" is interchangeable with "discrimination." This is a plausible interpretation of the data that Levy chose to ignore.

It is difficult to overestimate the damage done to Israel by Ha'aretz's sensational headlines and reporting. Instead of engaging in serious and balanced social criticism based on the findings of the survey, Ha'aretz chose instead to export Gideon Levy's hysteria and obsession in the form of distorted headlines and an inaccurate story.

Ha'aretz's campaign is transparent. Last week the paper falsely reported that the Israeli government admits to apartheid, this week it wrongly reported that the Israelis themselves admit to apartheid. Foreign journalists, ambassadors, diplomats, and policymakers around the world should take note. While Ha'aretz might have been perceived as a serious and reliable inside source of news about Israel, it is becoming increasingly clear that it nothing more than a tool for anti-Israel activists.


http://cifwatch.com/2012/10/ (http://cifwatch.com/2012/10/)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:06:15 PM
http://cifwatch.com/2012/10/30/what-the-guardian-wont-report-fatah-fb-page-posts-pic-of-mother-placing-suicide-belt-on-her-child/ (http://cifwatch.com/2012/10/30/what-the-guardian-wont-report-fatah-fb-page-posts-pic-of-mother-placing-suicide-belt-on-her-child/)

Isn't it amazing how palestinian kids are precious when they're killed by the big bad jews, but not when they are the ones being sent out to kill. Cannon fodder.


What the Guardian won't report: Fatah FB page posts pic of mother placing suicide belt on her child

October 30, 2012 in Adam Levick


This is just grotesque.

Per Palestinian Media Watch:


The Facebook page for Fatah in Lebanon has posted this picture of a mother dressing her young son with a suicide belt.

This picture was posted on the Fatah Facebook page together with an imaginary conversation between the son who is being sent to his death and the mother encouraging it. "Why me and not you?" the child innocently asks his mother, who answers that she will continue to have more children "for the sake of Palestine":



Here's PMW's translation of the Arabic next to the photo:


(http://commentisfreewatch.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/final_suicide_belt_picture_facebook.jpg?w=490)


"My mother dressed me in a strange belt (i.e., a suicide belt).

I asked her: 'What is this, mother?'

She said: 'I will put it on you and you will go to your death!'

I said to her: 'Mother, what have I done that you want me to die?'

She shed a tear that hurt my heart and said: 'The homeland needs you, son. Go and blow up the sons of Zion.'

I said to her: 'Why me and not you?'

She said: 'I will stay in order to give birth to more children for the sake of Palestine.'

I kissed her hand and said to her: 'Keep it up, mother, for you and for Palestine I will kill the impure and the damned.'"

PMW notes that the Facebook page states that it is "the official page of Fatah's Information and Culture Commission in Lebanon," and is linked to from the official site of the Fatah Information and Culture Commission (http://www.fatehmedia.ps).

Our series of posts titled 'What the Guardian won't report' is inspired by our belief that what the Guardian doesn't report is often as damaging to the public's understanding of Israel and Israelis as what they do report. 

You simply can't truly understand the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict without basic facts about the injurious impact of Palestinian incitement, terror and antisemitism.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 05:16:27 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:06:15 PM
http://cifwatch.com/2012/10/30/what-the-guardian-wont-report-fatah-fb-page-posts-pic-of-mother-placing-suicide-belt-on-her-child/ (http://cifwatch.com/2012/10/30/what-the-guardian-wont-report-fatah-fb-page-posts-pic-of-mother-placing-suicide-belt-on-her-child/)

Isn't it amazing how palestinian kids are precious when they're killed by the big bad jews, but not when they are the ones being sent out to kill. Cannon fodder.


What the Guardian won't report: Fatah FB page posts pic of mother placing suicide belt on her child

October 30, 2012 in Adam Levick


This is just grotesque.

Per Palestinian Media Watch:


The Facebook page for Fatah in Lebanon has posted this picture of a mother dressing her young son with a suicide belt.

This picture was posted on the Fatah Facebook page together with an imaginary conversation between the son who is being sent to his death and the mother encouraging it. "Why me and not you?" the child innocently asks his mother, who answers that she will continue to have more children "for the sake of Palestine":



Here's PMW's translation of the Arabic next to the photo:


(http://commentisfreewatch.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/final_suicide_belt_picture_facebook.jpg?w=490)


"My mother dressed me in a strange belt (i.e., a suicide belt).

I asked her: 'What is this, mother?'

She said: 'I will put it on you and you will go to your death!'

I said to her: 'Mother, what have I done that you want me to die?'

She shed a tear that hurt my heart and said: 'The homeland needs you, son. Go and blow up the sons of Zion.'

I said to her: 'Why me and not you?'

She said: 'I will stay in order to give birth to more children for the sake of Palestine.'

I kissed her hand and said to her: 'Keep it up, mother, for you and for Palestine I will kill the impure and the damned.'"

PMW notes that the Facebook page states that it is "the official page of Fatah's Information and Culture Commission in Lebanon," and is linked to from the official site of the Fatah Information and Culture Commission (http://www.fatehmedia.ps).

Our series of posts titled 'What the Guardian won't report' is inspired by our belief that what the Guardian doesn't report is often as damaging to the public's understanding of Israel and Israelis as what they do report. 

You simply can't truly understand the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict without basic facts about the injurious impact of Palestinian incitement, terror and antisemitism.

When is the last time a Jew in Israel was killed by a suicide bomb, BDB ?

Israel is really desperate when it has people like you defending it. 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 05:17:57 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 04:40:27 PM





Ha'aretz's Apartheid Campaign Against Israel

October 28, 2012


Cross posted by Yishai Goldflam at CAMERA  (This is a translated version of the original which appeared at CAMERA's Hebrew site, Presspectiva.)

Amidst its financial hardships and declining Israeli readership, the Israeli daily, Ha'aretz, has upped its anti-Israel advocacy, engaging in a campaign to promote the apartheid canard about Israel. First, Akiva Eldar falsely alleged that the Israeli government had acknowledged Jews as the minority population residing between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, a claim he was forced to correct. Then Gideon Levy wrote an article bearing the sinister headline, "Survey: Most Israeli Jews support apartheid regime in Israel."

The online versions in English and Hebrew were subsequently changed slightly. And the print edition's English headline was "Survey: Most Israeli Jews advocate discrimination against Arabs."  This story was followed the next day by an article that attempted to solidify as fact supposed Jewish support for an apartheid regime, with the headline, "Arab MKs: Israeli Jews' support of apartheid is not surprising."

Levy's article claimed that according to a recent survey the majority of Israelis not only support apartheid, but also hold racist views towards Israeli Arabs and believe that apartheid already exists today in Israel. Predictably, the story spread like wildfire and was quoted in major media outlets such as London's The Guardian and The Independent, Toronto's Globe and Mail, Agence-France Presse, and dozens of other sites, blogs and forums.

Pro- and anti-Israel activists have spent the past two days debating the reliability of the survey, its wording and meaning, as well as the accuracy of Gideon Levy's article publicizing the poll. But most of those involved in the debate did not see the complete, original survey because it was not published anywhere, including in Levy's article. One notable exception was this in-depth analysis by Avi Mayer which relied upon the original poll. CAMERA/Presspectiva obtained a copy of the original survey, and compared it to Levy's article and Ha'aretz's headline to see whether or not they accurately reflected the survey.

Unsurprisingly, Levy's article was full of omissions and distortions. He apparently ignored the data that did not suit him and emphasized those that were in accord with his own well-known anti-Israel world view. At times, he completely reversed the survey's findings. The sensational headline represents, at best, Levy's interpretation of the survey and does not represent objective, factual reporting.

It also appears that the survey itself has its own share of problems – including the lack of clarity and hypothetical nature of the questions, no definition of terms that were used, limited answer choices, no correction for confounding factors, and general lack of explanation about what exactly was meant by the questions.

Yet even on the assumption that the survey was a valid one that was appropriately conducted, the results neither justify Ha'aretz's bombastic headlines, which seem to be part of a campaign to damage and delegitimize the Jewish state, nor the article itself that cherry-picks or otherwise misrepresents the results in order to reach the predetermined conclusion of the headline.

Levy Distorts

Levy's striking misrepresentations included the following:


A sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. A quarter – 24 percent – believe separate roads are "a good situation" and 50 percent believe they are "a necessary situation."

Levy conveniently omitted the original question and answers from the survey. They were:


17. In the territories, there are some roads where travel is permitted only to Israelis and others where travel is permitted only to Palestinians. Which of the following opinions are closest to your own: A. It is a good situation. B. It is not a good situation, but what can you do? C. It is not a good situation and it needs to be stopped.

24% – it is a good situation.

50% – it is not a good situation, but there is nothing that can be done.

17% – it is not a good situation and it needs to be stopped

If the answers are divided according to those who see it as "good" and those who see it as "not good," then 67% see it as a bad situation. But Levy did not bother to inform reader that the 50% of those who saw separate roads as "necessary" saw it as an undesirable situation.

When a "minority" becomes a "majority"

Levy devoted much of his fiery wrath to the alleged racism of Israeli Jews toward Israeli Arabs, but here too he distorted the results in order to make his case. Already in the third sentence of the article, he wrote:


A majority of Israeli Jews also explicitly favors discrimination against the state's Arab citizens...

Levy misled his readers. There are five questions in the survey relating to discrimination against Arabs. Below are the questions and results:


4. In your opinion, is it desirable or undesirable for Jews to receive priority over Arabs in government hiring? a

59% – desirable; 34% undesirable



5. In your opinion, is it desirable to enact a law that prevents Israeli Arabs from voting in the Knesset?
33% – desirable; 59% undesirable



7. Do you agree or disagree with the argument that the state needs to care more for its Jewish citizens than its Arab citizens?
49% – agree; 49% – disagree



8. Would it bother you if in your place of abode, for example in your apartment building, an Arab family also lived there?
42% – it would bother me; 53% – it would not bother me



9. Would it bother you if in one of your children's classrooms at school, there were also Arab children?
42% – it would bother me; 49% – it would not bother me

Does the overall picture obtained from these results support Levy's characterization of most Israeli Jews favoring discrimination against Israeli-Arabs? On the contrary. Most people reading these results would perceive just the opposite, that a majority of Israelis do not support discrimination against Arabs.

Moreover, there are confounding factors here that skew the numbers, making the majority a smaller one than might be expected.  For example, the highest percentages of negative answers to the questions about Arab children sharing a class room with their children and Arab families living in the same apartment building came from the group that self-identified as ultra-Orthodox Jews. This community tends to insulate their families from the outside world and would be expected to just as readily answer that they would not want their children sharing a classroom with secular Jews, or that they would want all their neighbors to share their same values and strictures. This artificially confounds the data. Israeli society is certainly not perfect, but it is a far cry from Levy's misrepresentation that most Israeli Jews openly and explicitly favor discrimination against Arabs.

Levy's misrepresentation was even worse in the commentary accompanying the main article, where he wrote:


Most Israelis do not want Arab voters for the Knesset, nor Arab neighbors at home, nor Arab students near the bookcases of Jewish texts in Jewish schools that teach Jewish heritage. And our camp will be pure, as pure of Arabs as possible and perhaps even more.

What is amazing about the above paragraph is that Levy chose precisely the three examples that demonstrate the opposite of the scenario he describes. Unfortunately, readers horrified at the "findings" described by Levy do not possess the tools to see that the author was deceiving them, because the results of the survey were not included.

The issue of Levy's selective reporting is evident throughout the article, in which he introduced the "negative" data without mentioning the "positive" data.

For example, when he wrote that "a third of the respondents support a law that would prevent Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset, " he did not bother to mention that 59% oppose such a law.

Similarly, when Levy wrote that "36 percent support transferring some of the Arab towns from Israel to the PA, in exchange for keeping some of the West Bank settlements," he did not bother to note that even more– 48% – oppose it. And when he wrote that "42 percent don't want to live in the same building with Arabs and 42 percent don't want their children in the same class with Arab children," he did not bother to note that even more – 53% and 49% respectively – would not mind.

The headline in Ha'aretz's print edition trumpeted that "Most Israeli Jews advocate discrimination against Arabs" – a conclusion clearly not borne out by the results of the survey. But this was evidently of no concern to editors who opted for a sensational headline that presented Israel in the worst possible light, no matter how false it was.

Support for Apartheid?

The subject of apartheid – the focus of Ha'aretz's headline and on which Levy places his primary emphasis, as well as the charge that was disseminated around the world – takes up just 3 out of the 17 questions in the survey and is divided into two separate allegations by Levy:

a) the majority of Israelis support an apartheid regime; and

b) most Israelis think that Israel is already an apartheid state

Levy shares an honest point acknowledged by the pollsters that provides a key to understanding the problematic nature of the above allegations:


The survey conductors say perhaps the term "apartheid" was not clear enough to some interviewees.

Indeed, in the three questions dealing with the concept of apartheid, there is no definition or explanation of what is meant by the term "apartheid." This raises the question of how the pollsters concluded, on the one hand, that the respondents "support apartheid" even while admitting that the term may not have been clear to the respondents. This logical failure would have raised a red flag to responsible journalists. That it did not give Levy reason to pause is testament to his lack of journalistic ethics.

Levy began the article by stating:


Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.

It is an emphatic conclusion, but not what was asked in the survey. The only question addressing annexation of the territories was Question 16:


16. If Israel annexes the territories of Judea and Samaria, in your opinion, is it necessary to give 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote in the Knesset?

While 69% of respondents answered no, the survey's question addressed a hypothetical scenario that had no bearing on the current situation. Moreover, there were more interviewees who responded that they oppose annexation than those who responded that they support it (48% oppose, 38% support). In other words, almost half the respondents were forced to choose an answer about a hypothetical scenario that they explicitly oppose. Yet Ha'aretz's online edition turned this finding into a headline without noting that it only described a hypothetical scenario that was already widely rejected by respondents. The online headline was subsequently changed to include the word "would" presumably to account for the hypothetical nature of the result: "Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel" but the damage wrought by the original headline had already been done, demonstrating the success of Ha'aretz's apparent campaign to portray Israeli Jews as racists who support apartheid.

What about the claim that the majority of Israelis believe that an apartheid regime already exists in the country? Levy wrote:


Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent ) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs.

This is what the survey says:


11. Which of the following opinions is closest to yours? A. There is no apartheid at all in Israel. B. There is apartheid in some areas. C. There is apartheid in many areas.

31% – There is no apartheid at all in Israel.

39% – There is apartheid in some areas.

19% – There is apartheid in many areas.

Beyond Levy's ignoring of the survey's nuance, with his blanket assertion that Israel "practices apartheid against Arabs," are the problems inherent in the survey question itself – which Levy similarly ignores. What is "apartheid in some areas" or "apartheid in many areas"? The term "apartheid," contrary to its superficial use in the survey, and contrary to the concept of "discrimination" has a very clear and precise meaning: According to the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, it refers to "an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." (See more at "Israeli Apartheid Week")

There is no such thing as "some" apartheid. There is either apartheid or no apartheid. Apartheid is not simply discrimination – the sort that exists in almost every country around the world including Israel, which is precisely why the term was created specifically to describe South Africa's regime.

Anyone who understands the meaning of the word "apartheid" cannot reliably answer such an illogical question that seeks to reveal whether Israel practices apartheid "in some areas" or "in many areas." Of even greater concern is the impact of Levy's assertion "that 58% of Israeli citizens support apartheid" on those readers in London, New York, or Berlin who actually know what real apartheid is.

Despite the fact, that by any parameter, there is no connection between any Israeli policy and the South African apartheid regime, international activists are currently attempting to brand Israel with this smear in order to convince good and caring people that Israel is a second South Africa and should be treated as such – with boycott, divestment and sanctions. The Ha'aretz articles of the last few days indicate that the Israeli paper, too, seeks to demonize Israel as apartheid.

The fact that the survey question did not define "apartheid" or explain to respondents the difference between "apartheid" and "discrimination," and the fact that the pollsters admitted that the term was not clear to all respondents suggests that respondents took the term "apartheid" to mean "discrimination" and understood it as simply a synonym for the latter. Moreover, the absurd response options of apartheid in "some" areas or in "many" areas also would suggest that the poll writers, intentionally or not, misled respondents into thinking that "apartheid" is interchangeable with "discrimination." This is a plausible interpretation of the data that Levy chose to ignore.

It is difficult to overestimate the damage done to Israel by Ha'aretz's sensational headlines and reporting. Instead of engaging in serious and balanced social criticism based on the findings of the survey, Ha'aretz chose instead to export Gideon Levy's hysteria and obsession in the form of distorted headlines and an inaccurate story.

Ha'aretz's campaign is transparent. Last week the paper falsely reported that the Israeli government admits to apartheid, this week it wrongly reported that the Israelis themselves admit to apartheid. Foreign journalists, ambassadors, diplomats, and policymakers around the world should take note. While Ha'aretz might have been perceived as a serious and reliable inside source of news about Israel, it is becoming increasingly clear that it nothing more than a tool for anti-Israel activists.


http://cifwatch.com/2012/10/ (http://cifwatch.com/2012/10/)
Message to CAMERA- when you are explaining, you are losing.

Why are Israeli Jews so touchy about apartheid anyway ? Isn't Erez Israel Jewish land? Wasn't it given to them by GOD?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:20:58 PM
Wouldn't you be touchy if someone were to accuse Irish Catholics of apartheid? I would be.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 05:46:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:20:58 PM
Wouldn't you be touchy if someone were to accuse Irish Catholics of apartheid? I would be.
I am not aware of any grounds for the accusation of apartheid in Ireland. As far as I know nobody is denied the right to vote or the right to water or the right to drive on the roads as is the case under Israeli occupation.
Israeli Jews are proud of their special rights- if they are ashamed of apartheid they are hypocrites.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:51:05 PM
QuoteWhen is the last time a Jew in Israel was killed by a suicide bomb, BDB ?

There's a great big wall that has a lot to do with that. 


When was the last time an Irish child was murdered by a British soldier? The two are exactly the same. Murder of innocent civilians is murder of innocent civilians. You hypocrite.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:51:05 PM
QuoteWhen is the last time a Jew in Israel was killed by a suicide bomb, BDB ?

There's a great big wall that has a lot to do with that. 


When was the last time an Irish child was murdered by a British soldier? The two are exactly the same. Murder of innocent civilians is murder of innocent civilians. You hypocrite.
Israel is fucked, BdB. Especially considering the sub intellect required to find what you post as supportive. Your side treats humans like vermin and is shit scared of the ordinary joes of the world seiing israeli apartheid for the moral sludge it is. I think your links to memri and camera say more between the lines than you understand- Israel has already lost the information war and zionist jews are really concerned they are going to lose the goys. Calling people antismites won't save herzlcs dream. This is the real world and nobody owes israel anything.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Hardy on October 30, 2012, 07:59:19 PM
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/Hardyarse/dialogueofthedeaf.png)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 08:12:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:51:05 PM
QuoteWhen is the last time a Jew in Israel was killed by a suicide bomb, BDB ?

There's a great big wall that has a lot to do with that. 


When was the last time an Irish child was murdered by a British soldier? The two are exactly the same. Murder of innocent civilians is murder of innocent civilians. You hypocrite.
Israel is fucked, BdB. Especially considering the sub intellect required to find what you post as supportive. Your side treats humans like vermin and is shit scared of the ordinary joes of the world seiing israeli apartheid for the moral sludge it is. I think your links to memri and camera say more between the lines than you understand- Israel has already lost the information war and zionist jews are really concerned they are going to lose the goys. Calling people antismites won't save herzlcs dream. This is the real world and nobody owes israel anything.

I take it your medication has kicked in.  :o
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 08:56:39 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 08:12:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:51:05 PM
QuoteWhen is the last time a Jew in Israel was killed by a suicide bomb, BDB ?

There's a great big wall that has a lot to do with that. 


When was the last time an Irish child was murdered by a British soldier? The two are exactly the same. Murder of innocent civilians is murder of innocent civilians. You hypocrite.
Israel is fucked, BdB. Especially considering the sub intellect required to find what you post as supportive. Your side treats humans like vermin and is shit scared of the ordinary joes of the world seiing israeli apartheid for the moral sludge it is. I think your links to memri and camera say more between the lines than you understand- Israel has already lost the information war and zionist jews are really concerned they are going to lose the goys. Calling people antismites won't save herzlcs dream. This is the real world and nobody owes israel anything.

I take it your medication has kicked in.  :o
You know, in the 1950s  supporters of Israel used to talk about culture and progress and now they deny apartheid and dehumanise Palestinians. It has been some fall really. 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 09:02:57 PM
Quote from: Hardy on October 30, 2012, 07:59:19 PM
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/Hardyarse/dialogueofthedeaf.png)
the board is very quiet now, isn't it, with the all Ireland over and Banty gone
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 31, 2012, 12:07:49 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 08:12:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 30, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 30, 2012, 05:51:05 PM
QuoteWhen is the last time a Jew in Israel was killed by a suicide bomb, BDB ?

There's a great big wall that has a lot to do with that. 


When was the last time an Irish child was murdered by a British soldier? The two are exactly the same. Murder of innocent civilians is murder of innocent civilians. You hypocrite.
Israel is fucked, BdB. Especially considering the sub intellect required to find what you post as supportive. Your side treats humans like vermin and is shit scared of the ordinary joes of the world seiing israeli apartheid for the moral sludge it is. I think your links to memri and camera say more between the lines than you understand- Israel has already lost the information war and zionist jews are really concerned they are going to lose the goys. Calling people antismites won't save herzlcs dream. This is the real world and nobody owes israel anything.

I take it your medication has kicked in.  :o

You are wasting your time talking to this boozed up anti-semite.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2012, 08:27:16 AM
Hilarious stuff lads. Bring in alcoholism and homosexuality.

Are they supposed to be insults? And isn't it great PR for the board as well?

It was a technique which the Zionists were to employ throughout their struggle. The technique of promoting damaging personal attacks on those who stood in their way rather than trying to counter their arguments."
"Such non conformists were subtly made aware that their jobs might be at risk, their books unpublishable, their preferment out of the question, their public reputations vulnerable if they did not renounce the heresy of anti Zionism "
Publish it not, Mayhew and Adams, 1975
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 02:25:34 PM
If you don't like what is posted, then gurn yer lamps out to the mods. Look down to the right. See where it says "Report to moderater", fill yer boots.

The one thing I will never do on this thread, is report anyone for anything they post. If you're big enough to dish it out, then expect to get it right back at ya.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 02:25:58 PM
So called Land Grabs


We read in the international press the complaints against Israel for demolishing Arab homes, but little
background or context is ever given.

First, according to international treaties, in Judea and Samaria, the land is divided in areas "A", "B" and C". Let's just read for a moment what these area actually are.

Definition of Land Areas

Area 'A': Full Palestinian control; mainly urban areas (cities and towns)
     17.2% of total area, 55% of Palestinian population

Area 'B': Palestinian civil and Israeli security control; mainly populated rural areas
    23.8% of area, 41% of the population

Area 'C': Full Israeli control; communities, community access roads, buffer zones (near communities, roads,
strategic areas and Israel) and almost all of the Jordan Valley 
    59% of area, 4% of population

Ownership of the Land in Judea and Samaria

There are 4 types of ownership:

•State lands--35%
•Privately own Jewish land--5%
•Privately owned Arab lands--30%
•Undefined ownership--30%

Basically, the communities in Judea and Samaria have been established ONLY on State lands or privately owned
Jewish land.

However, the Palestinians are being encouraged by their leaders to move into area "C", albeit illegally. and then claim ownership.

This is a land grab, pure and simple.

The international media has accepted the Palestinian narrative about land ownership, but ignored the fact that in many cases this "ownership" is actually the occupation of land that does not belong to them and into which, even according to international law, they have come illegally.


http://www.cohav.org/land-grabs.html (http://www.cohav.org/land-grabs.html)


Never mind the source boys, is it true, or is it not?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: dec on October 31, 2012, 02:29:24 PM
State lands--35%

How did the Israeli state come to own 35% of the West Bank/Judea and Samaria?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 02:38:18 PM
Irish ties to Israel hurt by NGO funding

By ALEX RYVCHIN

10/17/2012 22:34

The Irish government is either oblivious to Trócaire's extensive anti-peace activities, or knowingly carrying on a long tradition of anti-Israel bias.
Photo: Reuters
This week, officials from Ireland are traveling to Israel for high-level talks. At the top of the agenda should be the damaging policies conducted by Trócaire, one of the major recipients of Irish taxpayer largesse.

Founded by the Bishops of Ireland, Trócaire is the official overseas development agency of the Catholic Church in Ireland and a major recipient of funds from Irish Aid with an annual budget of some ¤56 million.

In contrast to the humanitarian label, Trócaire is also a major contributor to and unwitting participant in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

Amid the organization's materials showing impoverished African children and grateful aid recipients from the third world are political attacks in the form of calls to boycott Israeli products from the West Bank. In a recent op-ed in the Irish Times, Trócaire's executive director, Justin Kilcullen, urged Ireland to adopt a total ban on "illegal settlement goods" and to "push European counterparts for similar action."

Beyond the central moral issue raised by an aid organization interceding politically in a complex and multifaceted conflict, Trócaire's role as a key enabler of anti-Israel campaigns raises important questions. If boycotts are a legitimate means of influencing the policies of foreign governments, why is there no call to boycott Syria following the deaths of tens of thousands of people in Assad's bloody war against his own people? And why is there no Trocaire-led boycott of China, or of many other countries plagued by violent attacks and terrorism. In fact, why is Israel the only country that Trócaire targets in the entire Middle East?

The answer may have something to do with the fact that Trócaire's "Occupied Palestinian Territories/Israel Programme Officer," Garry Walsh, was previously employed as the National Coordinator for Ireland Palestinian Solidarity Campaign – an openly partisan and biased organization far removed from any humanitarian objectives. The appointment of Walsh to lead the campaign against Israel has completed Trócaire's transformation from a legitimate aid organization to anti-Israel lobbyist, and has led to the loss of all credibility and influence to comment on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Trócaire's track record illustrates the growing influence of bias and politics, at the expense of assisting people in need. For example, in 2007, Trócaire joined Badil (a militant anti-Israel NGO) in a "Call to Action," to advance boycotts divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel and invoking offensive rhetoric aimed at the Jewish community. Trócaire is also involved in campaigns to commemorate the Palestinian "nakba" (meaning catastrophe, and referring to the failure of the Arab side in the war of 1948) reinforcing the image of Palestinian victimhood resulting from Israeli independence.

Trócaire's executive director, Justin Kilcullen, produced a highly distorted report on Gaza which falsely blames Israel alone for the conflict, erasing Hamas mass terror.

Apparently, the Irish government is either oblivious to Trócaire's extensive anti-peace activities, or the current government is knowingly carrying on a long tradition of Irish anti-Israel bias. In the past financial year, the group received ¤18.5 million from Irish Aid, the government's assistance program for developing countries, all at the expense of the Irish taxpayer.

SADLY, TRÓCAIRE is but one example of Irish government funding for an NGO whose damaging political agenda is hidden in the language of human rights. Irish Aid also supports Al-Haq, which calls itself a "human rights organization," yet a closer look at the group reveals another goal: targeting Israel in the political war. The group has suggested "flooding the Israeli Supreme Court with petitions in the hope of obstructing its functioning and resources." It commences spurious legal proceedings in foreign courts attacking freely elected Israeli politicians, and has even sought to manipulate the UK judicial system to sabotage economic ties between Britain and Israel.

Like Trócaire, the motives of the group are betrayed by its leadership. Al-Haq is headed by Shawan Jabarin, one of the alleged "senior activists of the Popular Front terrorist organization" according to the Israeli High Court. And like Trócaire, the group receives substantial support courtesy of the Irish taxpayer. In 2009 alone, Al Haq received $186,689 from Irish Aid.

An Irish taxpayer might well ask why on earth their government has seen fit to fund "humanitarian" organizations headed by radical ideologues and alleged members of terror groups.

What is even more perplexing is that in funding groups such as Trócaire and Al-Haq, the Irish government is supporting organizations which completely undermine its very own policies.

Officially, the Irish government has rejected the unconscionable movement of boycotts, divestment and sanctions against Israel. Yet Irish Aid continues to give money to groups that actively campaign for BDS – a strategy that politicizes human rights, adds fuel to the conflict and, to be clear, seeks nothing less than the ultimate destruction of Israel.

One leading boycott activist – Ahmed Moor – revealed the true aims of the movement, when he declared: "Boycotts, divestment and sanctions does mean the end of the Jewish state.... Ending the occupation doesn't mean anything if it doesn't mean ending the Jewish state itself."

So on the one hand, the Irish government says that it advocates a peaceful settlement of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the realization of a two-state solution. Yet at the same time, it provides large funds to organizations involved in a campaign which seeks the destruction of a democratic, sovereign state.

The Irish government supports a negotiated settlement between Israel and the Palestinians. This is how lasting peace will be achieved. This is how Israel will realize its dream of peaceful co-existence with its neighbors, and Palestinians can achieve statehood.

In contrast, as the examples of Trócaire and Irish Aid funding for Al Haq illustrate, the abuse of public funds for destructive and discriminatory activities shows the need for a systematic and independent review of these important issues.



http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=288273 (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=288273)

Don't bother shaking your box at me again.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 02:25:34 PM
If you don't like what is posted, then gurn yer lamps out to the mods. Look down to the right. See where it says "Report to moderater", fill yer boots.

The one thing I will never do on this thread, is report anyone for anything they post. If you're big enough to dish it out, then expect to get it right back at ya.

Homophobia is not manly.
If you have a point you should be able to make it without slurring the gay community.

Surely Israel can do better than you. 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2012, 02:52:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 02:25:58 PM
So called Land Grabs


We read in the international press the complaints against Israel for demolishing Arab homes, but little
background or context is ever given.

First, according to international treaties, in Judea and Samaria, the land is divided in areas "A", "B" and C". Let's just read for a moment what these area actually are.

Definition of Land Areas

Area 'A': Full Palestinian control; mainly urban areas (cities and towns)
     17.2% of total area, 55% of Palestinian population

Area 'B': Palestinian civil and Israeli security control; mainly populated rural areas
    23.8% of area, 41% of the population

Area 'C': Full Israeli control; communities, community access roads, buffer zones (near communities, roads,
strategic areas and Israel) and almost all of the Jordan Valley 
    59% of area, 4% of population

Ownership of the Land in Judea and Samaria

There are 4 types of ownership:

•State lands--35%
•Privately own Jewish land--5%
•Privately owned Arab lands--30%
•Undefined ownership--30%

Basically, the communities in Judea and Samaria have been established ONLY on State lands or privately owned
Jewish land.

However, the Palestinians are being encouraged by their leaders to move into area "C", albeit illegally. and then claim ownership.

This is a land grab, pure and simple.

The international media has accepted the Palestinian narrative about land ownership, but ignored the fact that in many cases this "ownership" is actually the occupation of land that does not belong to them and into which, even according to international law, they have come illegally.


http://www.cohav.org/land-grabs.html (http://www.cohav.org/land-grabs.html)


Never mind the source boys, is it true, or is it not?
How can Israel own state land in the West Bank? 
Is the West Bank part of Israel? Yes or no ?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2012, 03:53:28 PM
How the Occupation Became Legal
Eyal Press


http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/jan/25/how-occupation-became-legal/


This is the second in an NYRblog series about the fate of democracy in different parts of the world.

Shark de Mayo/thelawfilm.com
Justice Meir Shamgar

In 1979, a group of Palestinian farmers filed a petition with Israel's High Court of Justice, claiming their land was being illegally expropriated by Jewish settlers. The farmers were not Israeli citizens, and the settlers appeared to have acted with the state's support; indeed, army helicopters had escorted them to the land—a hilltop near Nablus—bringing along generators and water tanks. The High Court of Justice nevertheless ordered the outpost dismantled. "The decision of the court... proved that 'there was justice' in Jerusalem and that Israel was indeed ruled by Law," exulted one Israeli columnist.

But the frustration of the settlers did not last very long. As revealed in The Law in These Parts, an engrossing new Israeli
documentary making its American debut at the Sundance Film Festival, just hours after the ruling was handed down, Ariel Sharon, a keen supporter of the settlement project who was then Israel's Minister of Agriculture, organized a meeting to discuss how to circumvent it. Alexander Ramati, then a legal advisor to the West Bank military command, raised his hand to tell Sharon about an Ottoman concept known as "Mawat land." The Ottomans, who had controlled Palestine until World War I, had used the term to designate land far enough from any neighboring village that a crowing rooster perched on its edge could not be heard. Under Ottoman law, if such land was not cultivated for three years it was "mawat"—dead —and reverted to the empire. "With or without your rooster, be at my office at 8:00 in the morning," Sharon told Ramati, who was soon crisscrossing the West Bank in the cockpit of a helicopter, identifying tens of thousands of uninhabited acres that could be labeled "state land" and made available to settlers, notwithstanding the Geneva Convention's prohibition on moving civilians into occupied territory.

In the years that followed, a string of new settlements was built on this territory, eventually prompting another challenge before the Israeli High Court. This time, the Court denied the challenge, ruling that settlement construction was permissible while Israel served as the temporary custodian of the territory. This provided a legal basis for land expropriation that has since enabled hundreds of thousands of Israelis to relocate to the West Bank.

Surprisingly little is known about the legal apparatus that has enabled and structured the occupation. Filmed in nine days but based on years of archival research, The Law in These Parts aims to expose it. Even before the 1967 Six-Day War, the film reveals, officers in the army's legal corps drew up guidelines for a separate system of laws that could be applied to territory under IDF control, rules they were convinced could strike a balance between order and justice. But by the time the first

Palestinian Intifada erupted in 1987, detention without trial and convictions based on secret evidence had become standard operating procedure in the military courts entrusted with this task. One reason Israel did not simply extend its own laws to the West Bank and Gaza Strip was that doing so would "imply certain things you may not want," an official in the film explains – in particular, that Palestinians living in the occupied territories were citizens with the same rights as Israelis. (In contrast, Jewish settlers in places like Hebron were spared the military justice system and granted access to civilian courts in Israel.) Director Ra'anan Alexandrowicz, an Israeli known for his meticulously researched documentaries, initially planned to make these Palestinians the film's protagonists. Instead, the documentary focuses on the handful of Israeli legal officials who, working largely in the shadows, set the ground rules for an occupation now in its forty-fifth year.

The architects of this parallel justice system believed that what they were designing was enlightened and progressive, a sentiment some viewers of the film may initially be inclined to share. At the insistence of Meir Shamgar, an elderly man with an august bearing who served as Israel's Military Advocate General from 1963 to 1968, it was agreed soon after the Six-Day War that Palestinians could appeal cases to Israel's High Court of Justice. Shamgar, who later served as the High Court's president, notes that international law did not require Israel to grant Palestinians such access and expresses considerable pride in this. "I hope other countries will emulate the practice," he says.


Like all the people interviewed in the film, Shamgar is seated in a black leather chair set behind a desk that is mounted on a stage, an arrangement that makes it easy to imagine him in court, with the gavel – and the power to mete out judgment – in his hands. In the film, of course, this power actually rests with Alexandrowicz, a deft interviewer who patiently draws out his subjects but is not shy about airing his opinions – as, for example, after an exchange with Shamgar about a High Court case in which a Palestinian living near Hebron challenged the expropriation of so-called "state land." It was Shamgar who presided over the case and who ruled that while international law barred Israel from assuming ownership of the territory, building temporary outposts was permissible. Half-a-million Israelis now live in these "temporary" settlements, notes Alexandrowicz. "Look, I don't think this is connected to Supreme Court rulings," says Shamgar, attributing what happened to politics. But Alexandrowicz points out that international law "clearly forbids transferring population from the occupying state to the occupied area." He asks Shamgar, "Why didn't the court see this as something it needed to stand up against?" Shamgar glances to the side, a trace of exasperation ruffling his face. "That is a question after the fact," he says.

"Justice Shamgar doesn't see the connection between Supreme Court rulings and our settlements in the occupied territories," Alexandrowicz then says in a voiceover. "But I, the person documenting, see a connection, and I present the rulings and events as I understand them. Because in the world of the film, I rule on what reality is." As the statement suggests, The Law in These Parts makes no claim to being objective: as the narrative unfolds, it becomes increasingly apparent that the film is putting its subjects on trial before the audience. In another scene, Alexandrowicz interviews a former military judge about a case involving a Palestinian arrested without being told what he'd done wrong. To protect Israel's sources in the territories, Palestinians often could be shown only a "paraphrase" of the charges against them, the judge explains. And what if the security forces made unreliable accusations? "As a rule, I didn't doubt what they said," says the judge. This revealing admission was extracted from an interview that lasted more than three hours. "The viewer is only hearing a 'paraphrase' of my interview," says Alexandrowicz. Here as elsewhere, he slyly anticipates (and thus potentially defuses) the charge that his view is biased, while implicitly raising the same question about the supposedly neutral officials who held sway in courtrooms where the disparity in power, and the absence of objectivity, was far more glaring.

Alexandrowicz's unsparing inquiry is targeted at Israelis and foreign observers, who trumpet the achievements of Israel's democracy and the High Court's willingness to restrain abuses even at the occasional expense of security. The Law in These Parts does not deny that the High Court has successfully put a stop to some abuses in the territories—most notably in a 1999 ruling that barred various methods of physical interrogation (shaking, hooding, and shackling detainees) practiced for years with impunity. Like the 1979 decision on settlements, it infuriated some Israelis on the right, particularly since it came a few years after a wave of suicide bombings. On other occasions, the High Court has issued rulings—requiring, for example, that Israel re-route its security barrier to expropriate less Palestinian land—that the army has refused to enforce. But the film disquietingly suggests that these occasional displays of independence may only serve to foster the illusion of justice even as separate laws for settlers, house demolitions, restrictions on free movement and a host of other unjust policies obtained "a legal seal of approval," as Ilan Katz, who served as Deputy Military Advocate General from 2000 to 2003, puts it in the film. The Knesset could easily have passed a law barring Palestinians from petitioning the High Court, notes Katz. Why didn't it? "Because many times the Supreme Court is convenient for the security forces," he says.

The Law in These Parts appeared in Israel during a period in which many of the organs of an independent civil society – including the civil court system – have been under attack. The repressive climate may explain why the film has generated enormous interest in Israel, screening in more than 100 locations and receiving the prize for best documentary at the 2011 Jerusalem Film Festival. Of course, the warm reception also underscores a paradox: while many Israelis seem open and even sympathetic to critical examinations of the occupation, no political constituency has emerged to challenge the creeping colonization of East Jerusalem and the West Bank, which has continued to advance under the Netanyahu government. The film's subjects have been more sparing with their praise – with one notable exception, a former military judge named Jonathan Livny who has attended some screenings and spoken admiringly about it. At one point in the film, Livny is openly critical of the military courts: "As a military judge, you don't just represent justice," he says. "You represent the authorities of the occupation, vis-à-vis a population that sees you as the enemy... It's an unnatural situation. As long as it's only temporary, fine. But when it goes on for 40 years? How can the system function? How can it be just?"

It is the closest any of the film's subjects come to admitting to a troubled conscience, and it made me wonder whether the experience of being cross-examined in the studio had forced Livny to grapple with the compromises he'd made. "Yes," he told me when I reached him recently by phone, "it's become an educational moment in my life. It enabled me to sit for three hours and really look inwardly and go through a process of understanding and come to grips, through the questioning, with my emotions, my feelings, with trying to understand the role I played." I asked him if he ever looked back and thought he should have followed the lead of the hundreds of Israeli soldiers who refused to serve in the occupied territories. "Never," he said. "Because I realized that if I wouldn't do it and somebody else would be in my place, that person would not even have the qualms that I showed." Many of his colleagues viewed the settlements favorably, he told me. Some even lived in them. Few understood Arabic, which he spoke fluently.
Still, he said, he regarded the system in which he'd served as a place where cultivating respect for the rule of law was impossible. "It is a kangaroo court."

We spoke in early January, a week after Israel's High Court ruled on a petition challenging the right of Israeli companies to mine in eight quarries situated across the Green Line. The materials are sold overwhelmingly to Israelis —"looting the West Bank," in the words of Dror Etkes, a researcher formerly with the organization Yesh Din, which submitted the complaint—in seemingly clear violation of a provision of the Hague Convention requiring an occupying power to serve only as the "administrator" of such resources. The High Court rejected the challenge, ruling that the occupation has gone on for so long that the situation has acquired certain "unique characteristics." About this, at least, Ra'anan Alexandrowicz might agree.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2012, 05:42:09 PM
Back to the future

Radio RSA: The Voice of South Africa
In 1988, Wasburn's students analyzed five weeks of nightly radio broadcasts from Radio RSA ("The Voice of South Africa"), the South African government's international radio service, which sought to improve world opinion of the apartheid regime.
Fanus Venter, then head of Radio RSA, referred to its mission as "the ultimate public relations challenge."

According to Venter, the main objective of the station is to foster understanding of South Africa's unique situation in the world and to counteract the untruths and the halftruths about the nation which has been spread worldwide. To this end, the [South African Broadcasting Corporation] claims that Radio RSA presents balanced and objective information which enables its audiences to make a more accurate assessment of South African affairs against a background of what it describes as inaccurate and often one-sided coverage given events in South Africa by foreign media.
The study took forty-five hours of Radio RSA broadcasts and categorized the narrative into six interrelated propaganda themes, which I summarize below.

1. Brand South Africa

The most common theme sought to deflect from the apartheid issue and instead focus on "positive" traits shared between South Africa and other Western nations:

Theme 1. South Africa is an unusually complex, modern society with a pro-Western government, a vital capitalist economy, vast natural resources, and a rich cultural life with ties to Western Europe. While the nation faces serious, continuing problems of race, exclusive focus on this single aspect of South African society, by the media of other countries, has produced a highly distorted and misleading international image of the nation.
[...]
[T]he view of South Africa as a modern, productive society with strong cultural links to the West, working to achieve greater participation for all of its citizens in national political and economic life through gradual reform, is introduced in a piecemeal fashion. Nevertheless items depicting day-to-day life in South Africa, music, literature, art, business, science, flora and fauna all carry Radio RSA's most important message: contrary to the image of South Africa constructed by the international media, and despite admitted difficulties, South Africa is a vital, progressive state with much to admire and is deserving of support from the West.

Wasburn explained how something seemingly innocuous, such as focusing on South Africa's achievements and rich culture, sought to mask the country's crimes through an "apolitical" filter:

The accusation that a nation is insensitive to human rights or is militarily adventurous calls for the construction and presentation of a national image inconsistent with the labeling. The distinction between issue-specific and what will be termed thematic counterpropaganda is not hard and fast. However, it does clarify how manifestly nonpolitical material can be employed as a form of counterpropaganda.

Even the most cursory glance at the programming schedules of the major international broadcasting organizations reveals that a substantial amount of broadcast time is devoted to the transmission of materials such as music, sporting events, verbal travelogues, cultural affairs, business, and features purporting to depict daily life in the nation.

Although lacking obvious political content, numerous analysts have contended that such cultural materials can effectively promote particular values and national images that serve political and economic interests. Benevolence–malevolence is a common cognitive dimension of international images attributed to nations. A likely reason for allocating time to materials lacking obvious political intent is that they can cultivate a more benevolent image of a nation. Such materials do not evoke the resistance aroused by assertions that deal explicitly with political events, conditions, policies, principles, or other potentially
controversial matters.

The goal of such strategy is to disprove that Country X is a "bad" country by demonstrating that it produces some "good." If the country does good, then criticism of the country as "bad" cannot be correct. This assists us in parsing the strategy behind campaigns such as pinkwashing. Of course the flaw is that good actions do not offset bad ones, and criticism of a nation's actions are not offset by positive labels ascribed to the country as a whole. The branding theme seeks to determine whether a country is inherently good or bad, thus deflecting criticisms of what the country's government is doing.

2. Singling out South Africa

Theme 2. South Africa is wantonly and hypocritically singled out as a nation that oppresses its people. The government of South Africa is committed to democratic development. To this end, it is working to promote economic advancement, literacy, order, and stability, all of which are social preconditions for the maintenance of political liberties. The great threat to continuing social improvement in South Africa comes from revolutionary forces that are committed to violence and attempt to disrupt peace and legal order.
Radio RSA cited an opinion piece by British writer and commentator Simon Jenkins, who at the time had just returned from trips to Israel and South Africa.
Jenkins's piece, titled "People Who Live In Glass Houses: Before the British Begin to Criticise Other Nations on Human Rights, They Should Go to See Ulsters' Peace Wall," was published in the Sunday Times on February 28, 1988.

Radio RSA quoted from the piece two days later:
"The past week saw media attention being paid to the violence in Northern Ireland, Israeli soldiers beating Palestinians, the reporting of uprisings in the Soviet Union as well as the news of the restrictions placed on organizations in South Africa ... (I was) shocked by the complexity of the problems in Israel and South Africa, many of which were inherited from British policy decisions. (I was) impressed, however, by the efforts being made to overcome these problems. (I do) not believe that either Tel Aviv or Pretoria takes any more delight in increasing the permanent emergency powers than does the British government in extending its own increasingly permanent emergency powers."

3. There are prominent and successful blacks in South Africa. Blacks are better off here than elsewhere.

Theme 3. South Africa has undertaken major programs to improve black–white relations—particularly through increasing black participation in the management of the South African economy.
This theme attempted to counter accusations of racism by demonstrating a commitment to improving the situation of blacks in South Africa.
For example, the director of the International Executive Service of South Africa discussed a program to develop small, black-owned businesses in Soweto (March 9, 1988) and the director of South Africa's Urban Foundation described how the South African business community has tried to respond to the social needs of black South Africans (February 19, 1988).
Moreover, Radio RSA cited studies proving black success in South Africa.
"Contrary to much international criticism that blacks in South Africa lack opportunities, a recent survey shows that increasing numbers of black businessmen are reaching the top in the executive field with local companies.
"(Voice of Trevor Woodburn, head of the Woodburn-Mann consulting organization that conducted the survey) I was absolutely shocked to find that we, in fact, have placed far more blacks at the senior executive levels than most of the consultants around the world—in countries like Britain, Australia, Canada, for example, or even Italy or Germany..."

4. South Africa wants peace and good relations with its neighbors

Theme 4. South Africa maintains a policy of peaceful co-existence and helpfulness toward the other nations of Africa.
Example:
"A spokesman for the South African Department of Foreign Affairs said the positive areas of cooperation between South Africa and Mozambique are often overlooked by the international community. A group of diplomats had been invited so that they could be shown an aspect of the cooperation that existed. The spokesman said it was significant that representations of countries such as Canada and Australia, which have been so vociferous in their criticisms of South Africa, had failed to use the opportunity to see the true state of affairs." (March 5, 1988)
As well, Radio RSA boasted that South Africa's "economic strength" and "agricultural and technical know-how" could benefit less-developed countries in Africa:
"South African presence in central Africa has been criticized by the Nigerian government, according to two articles in the Johannesburg press yesterday. But South Africa's aid to the development of agriculture in Equatorial Guinea will achieve wider acceptance of the fact that South Africa, with its economic strength and depth of agricultural and technical knowhow, is well placed to contribute significantly to development in Africa." (February 10, 1988)

5. BDS is "counterproductive"

Theme 5. Efforts by foreign states to influence South Africa's domestic policies through the imposition of negative economic sanctions are both futile and counterproductive. South Africa's economy is fundamentally sound. A slide backward into recession, unemployment, and falling real income would worsen social problems. The nation's social-political difficulties are complex and can be solved best by its own people.
Critics of BDS against South Africa often claimed that reforms were under way but could be hindered by negative actions that forced white South Africans to react defensively and "circle the wagons"—often referred to by its Afrikaner term as the "laager" mentality.

Moreover, BDS would hurt the population it sought to help:
"The London branch of the Washington based International Freedom Foundation has issued a publication that questions whether massive disruption of the South African economy is either in the interest of, or supported by, the blacks in South Africa. Entitled Understanding Sanctions, it analyzes opinions held by black South Africans and finds that opposition to sanctions encompasses all sectors, including trade unionists, church and tribal leaders, and the ordinary black population. It say disinvestment hurts no one except those too poor to do anything about it, and that means the vast majority of the black population of South Africa. The publication concluded that for positive reform to accelerate, the West has to take moral courage and positive action in the form of investment in South Africa." (February 19, 1988)
The International Freedom Foundation, cited above, was a DC-based think-tank covertly funded by the South African government to promote the government's interests.
6. South Africa resides in a tough neighborhood; South Africa is an asset to the West.
Theme 6. Political and economic instability is widespread across southern Africa. The chief sources of such problems are tribalism, incompetence, crime, corruption, and, most important, foreign interference. South Africa deserves Western support because of its potential as a major stabilizing force on the subcontinent.
With the assertion of this theme, South African national image construction comes full circle. It has moved from the defensive position that criticisms of South Africa's domestic and foreign policies are based, for the most part, on misunderstanding are hypocrisy, to the offensive position that criticism and negative sanctions should be replaced by various forms of support for South Africa from the West.
To pursue this offensive strategy, it was first necessary to establish that factors, other than the activities of South Africa itself, were responsible for the region's political and economic problems...[N]umerous items appeared in the top-of-the-hour newscasts that dealt with lack of cooperation, incompetence, and corruption in other African nations and even in Africa's international organizations...
The position that the Republic of South Africa contributed to such stability as there was in southern Africa, rested on many of the same items presented in support of Theme 4, which expressed South Africa's helpfulness toward the other nations of the continent. Additional items also were presented that expressed South Africa's importance to the overall economy of Africa.
Invest, don't divest
An additional argument stressed in both themes 5 and 6 called for investment, not divestment or sanctions, as a positive and constructive solution for South Africa:
"Investment, not sanctions, is the only way in which Europe (can) contribute towards a peaceful resolution of southern Africa's problems. South Africa needs assistance in its struggle for stability, not avoidance or neglect." (March 12, 1988)
And, as previously quoted:

"[D]isinvestment hurts no one except those too poor to do anything about it, and that means the vast majority of the black population of South Africa...[F]or positive reform to accelerate, the West has to take moral courage and positive action in the form of investment in South Africa." (February 19, 1988)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 06:11:52 PM
Bar a couple of irrelevant mentions of Israel circa 1988, the only thing that stood out to me was this piece of complete ballix
QuoteRadio RSA cited an opinion piece by British writer and commentator Simon Jenkins, who at the time had just returned from trips to Israel and South Africa.
Jenkins's piece, titled "People Who Live In Glass Houses: Before the British Begin to Criticise Other Nations on Human Rights, They Should Go to See Ulsters' Peace Wall," was published in the Sunday Times on February 28, 1988.

Anyone, like myself, who has lived within a stones throw (literally) will tell you that the peace walls are a necessary evil, and a sign of a divided society, not a breach of anyones human rights. Everyone would love to see a day when they weren't needed, but for now, they are.


I would ask that you keep the rest of your posts relevant to the current situation, or I will be forced to start dragging up crap from the time of King David. Equally irrelevant
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2012, 07:32:19 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 06:11:52 PM
Bar a couple of irrelevant mentions of Israel circa 1988, the only thing that stood out to me was this piece of complete ballix
QuoteRadio RSA cited an opinion piece by British writer and commentator Simon Jenkins, who at the time had just returned from trips to Israel and South Africa.
Jenkins's piece, titled "People Who Live In Glass Houses: Before the British Begin to Criticise Other Nations on Human Rights, They Should Go to See Ulsters' Peace Wall," was published in the Sunday Times on February 28, 1988.

Anyone, like myself, who has lived within a stones throw (literally) will tell you that the peace walls are a necessary evil, and a sign of a divided society, not a breach of anyones human rights. Everyone would love to see a day when they weren't needed, but for now, they are.


I would ask that you keep the rest of your posts relevant to the current situation, or I will be forced to start dragging up crap from the time of King David. Equally irrelevant

85% of the wall is built on Palestinian land. So it's a land grab. Not a peace wall.


http://www.btselem.org/separation_barrier

"Eighty-five percent of the amended route runs through the West Bank, and not along the Green Line. In areas where the Barrier has already been built, the extensive violations of human rights of Palestinians living nearby are evident. Further construction inside the West Bank, in accordance with the Cabinet's decision of February 2005, causes additional human rights violations affecting hundreds of thousands of local residents.

The construction of the barrier has brought new restrictions on movement for Palestinians living near the Barrier's route, in addition to the widespread restrictions that have been in place since the outbreak of the current intifada. Thousands of Palestinians have difficulty going to their fields and marketing their produce in other areas of the West Bank. The areas west of the Barrier are one of the most fertile areas in the West Bank, and the agriculture there generates, according to the World Bank, 8 percent of Palestinian agricultural production. The harm to the farming sector prevents Palestinian farmers from gaining additional income and prevents an increase in the number of Palestinians working in agriculture, which is a major sector of the Palestinian economy.

The restrictions on freedom of movement also impair access of rural Palestinians to hospitals in nearby towns, harm the educational system since many schools, primarily in rural areas, are dependent on teachers who live outside the community, and hamper family and social ties."

BTW if the Zionists ran Belfast no catholic living west of the Bann would be allowed into the city.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 07:41:25 PM
QuoteBTW if the Zionists ran Belfast nobody West of the Bann would be allowed into the city.
Just bloody right. Hateful shower of hoors they are.  ;D

You know as well as I do that when the wall is finished, then the real negotiations will begin. Any settlements outside will probably just be dismantled, or left to their own devices.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on October 31, 2012, 08:20:05 PM
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/BALLINTOY/palestine_olmert_plan_maps-2.jpg)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2012, 08:39:02 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 31, 2012, 07:41:25 PM
QuoteBTW if the Zionists ran Belfast nobody West of the Bann would be allowed into the city.
Just bloody right. Hateful shower of hoors they are.  ;D

You know as well as I do that when the wall is finished, then the real negotiations will begin. Any settlements outside will probably just be dismantled, or left to their own devices.
Raimeis

The wall was begun in 2003. Bush was president. Mubarak ruled Egypt. the US was the sole superpower. Iraq was about to be invaded. the Project for the new American century was go.

Now it's 2012. Rumsfeld is disgraced. We are into year 5 of the global economic crisis. Mubarak is dying. The brothers are in power. The Israeli embassy in Cairo was ransacked last year. The PNAC is banjaxed. The US was downgraded to AA.
The days when Israelis told Arabs what to do are over

http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K7O3R1W2I1U

Israel is stuck in a trap it built itself. It can't pull out of the West Bank because to do so would provoke a Jewish civil war. 40% of IDF officers are either settlers or Orthodox. Israel can only deepen the occupation and hope the world doesn't say anything about its apartheid.

The country is increasingly right wing. In the medium term the Orthodox will become the largest Jewish demographic.
the Orthodox are the least likely to accept the Palestinian right to self determination. 

It's a mess for the Zionists. They gambled their state on the settlers. 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2012, 09:01:26 PM

Israel has always felt under siege, but its internal problems could be more damaging than any external threat. The rift is between the secular and the ultra-Orthodox, who believe any compromise with Arabs is unacceptable. Zealous immigrants are boosting the extreme right and militant settlers are pushing further into Palestinian territory. Last summer, a new social movement was born demanding an end to corruption, lower inflation and cuts to public services. Almost half a million Israelis took to the streets to protest. It was the biggest wave of demonstrations in the country's history. Meanwhile, the occupation of the Palestinian territories and the apartheid system inflicted on Palestinians living in Israel continues. Israel proclaims itself to be a secular, democratic and Jewish state - but can it credibly live up to such claims?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=e99rS5QflXg#!
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on October 31, 2012, 09:46:53 PM
Israeli justice

An Israeli Court in Lod acquitted Tuesday an Israeli soldier who shot and killed a Palestinian child during a nonviolent protest against the Annexation Wall in Ni'lin village, near the central West Bank city of Ramallah, in July 2008.

The soldier admitted to firing two rounds of live ammunition at the child, 10-year-old Ahmad Mousa, leading to his death.

During his court testimony, the soldier said that "not firing back at those who hurl stones at the army is considered weakness; therefore, I opened fire".

The Judge claimed that "it was not proven that the bullets fired by the soldier led to the death of the child", despite the fact that she acknowledged that the soldier opened fire using live ammunition while his life was not in danger.

The soldier, identified as Omri Abu, stated that he was in a bulletproof vehicle, but added that "these vehicles protect you to a certain level, and sometimes become useless when the hood is damaged, and the windshield is broken".

According to Israeli daily, Haaretz, as the unit arrived at the scene, Palestinian youths started hurling stones at the armored jeep, and Abu immediately opened the jeep's door and fired two rounds of live ammunition, hitting the child in the forehead causing instant death.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 07:59:43 AM
Mick Davis, the CEO of Xstrata, is an antisemite

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bffd3136-532c-11e1-8aa1-00144feabdc0.html

As a leader of Britain's Jewish community he made waves last year when he criticised Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, warning that unless there was a two-state solution with the Palestinians, Israel risked becoming an apartheid state.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on November 02, 2012, 10:23:01 AM
95 years ago today, one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third." More than that, the country was still part of the Empire of a fourth, namely Turkey.

It read:

Foreign Office, November 2nd,1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of His Majesty's Government the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations, which has been submitted to and approved by the Cabinet:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this Declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 10:37:06 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 02, 2012, 10:23:01 AM
95 years ago today, one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third." More than that, the country was still part of the Empire of a fourth, namely Turkey.

It read:

Foreign Office, November 2nd,1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of His Majesty's Government the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations, which has been submitted to and approved by the Cabinet:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this Declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/01/uk-responsibility-to-the-palestinians

Today is the 95th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, when the then foreign secretary, Arthur Balfour, signed a fateful letter to Lord Rothschild announcing that the British government "view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people". Britain thus gave the zionist movement carte blanche to transform the overwhelmingly Arab state of Palestine into a Jewish one.

To further this aim, from 1920 onwards, Britain encouraged the mass immigration into Palestine of hundreds of thousands of European Jews, expressly against the wishes of the majority population. As Palestine descended into chaos, the British washed their hands of their responsibility for the mess they had caused and stood by while hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were terrorised into fleeing their homeland, as Palestine was transformed into Israel.

We call for the British government to acknowledge publicly the responsibility of previous British administrations from 1917 to 1948 for the catastrophe that befell the Palestinians, when over threequarters were expelled deliberately and systematically by the zionist army. Most of them remain refugees today without redress. The truth about their expulsions is still not officially established, since Israel officially denies any responsibility for it.

Ghada Karmi
Tim Llewellyn
Karl Sabbagh
John Rose
Kamel Hawwash
Naomi Foyle
Mona Baker
Mike Marquesee
Seni Seneviratne
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 10:38:14 AM
it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine

doesn't really tally with

2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on November 05, 2012, 01:46:02 PM
Below is an account by Professor Noam Chomsky on his visit to Gaza last week. Well worth a read for a current and historical observation on the besieged region:

http://chomsky.info/articles/20121104.htm


Impressions of Gaza


Noam Chomsky

November 4, 2012


Even a single night in jail is enough to give a taste of what it means to be under the total control of some external force. And it hardly takes more than a day in Gaza to begin to appreciate what it must be like to try to survive in the world's largest open-air prison, where a million and a half people, in the most densely populated area of the world, are constantly subject to random and often savage terror and arbitrary punishment, with no purpose other than to humiliate and degrade, and with the further goal of ensuring that Palestinian hopes for a decent future will be crushed and that the overwhelming global support for a diplomatic settlement that will grant these rights will be nullified.

The intensity of this commitment on the part of the Israeli political leadership has been dramatically illustrated just in the past few days, as they warn that they will "go crazy" if Palestinian rights are given limited recognition at the UN. That is not a new departure. The threat to "go crazy" ("nishtagea") is deeply rooted, back to the Labor governments of the 1950s, along with the related "Samson Complex": we will bring down the Temple walls if crossed. It was an idle threat then; not today.

The purposeful humiliation is also not new, though it constantly takes new forms. Thirty years ago political leaders, including some of the most noted hawks, submitted to Prime Minister Begin a shocking and detailed account of how settlers regularly abuse Palestinians in the most depraved manner and with total impunity. The prominent military-political analyst Yoram Peri wrote with disgust that the army's task is not to defend the state, but "to demolish the rights of innocent people just because they are Araboushim ("niggers," "kikes") living in territories that God promised to us."

Gazans have been selected for particularly cruel punishment. It is almost miraculous that people can sustain such an existence. How they do so was described thirty years ago in an eloquent memoir by Raja Shehadeh (The Third Way), based on his work as a lawyer engaged in the hopeless task of trying to protect elementary rights within a legal system designed to ensure failure, and his personal experience as a Samid, "a steadfast one," who watches his home turned into a prison by brutal occupiers and can do nothing but somehow "endure."

Since Shehadeh wrote, the situation has become much worse. The Oslo agreements, celebrated with much pomp in 1993, determined that Gaza and the West Bank are a single territorial entity. By then the US and Israel had already initiated their program of separating them fully from one another, so as to block a diplomatic settlement and punish the Araboushim in both territories.

Punishment of Gazans became still more severe in January 2006, when they committed a major crime: they voted the "wrong way" in the first free election in the Arab world, electing Hamas. Demonstrating their passionate "yearning for democracy," the US and Israel, backed by the timid European Union, at once imposed a brutal siege, along with intensive military attacks. The US also turned at once to standard operating procedure when some disobedient population elects the wrong government: prepare a military coup to restore order.

Gazans committed a still greater crime a year later by blocking the coup attempt, leading to a sharp escalation of the siege and military attacks. These culminated in winter 2008-9, with Operation Cast Lead, one of the most cowardly and vicious exercises of military force in recent memory, as a defenseless civilian population, trapped with no way to escape, was subjected to relentless attack by one of the world's most advanced military systems relying on US arms and protected by US diplomacy. An unforgettable eyewitness account of the slaughter — "infanticide" in their words — is given by the two courageous Norwegian doctors who worked at Gaza's main hospital during the merciless assault, Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse, in their remarkable book Eyes in Gaza.

President-elect Obama was unable to say a word, apart from reiterating his heartfelt sympathy for children under attack — in the Israeli town Sderot. The carefully planned assault was brought to an end right before his inauguration, so that he could then say that now is the time to look forward, not backward, the standard refuge of criminals.

Of course, there were pretexts — there always are. The usual one, trotted out when needed, is "security": in this case, home-made rockets from Gaza. As is commonly the case, the pretext lacked any credibility. In 2008 a truce was established between Israel and Hamas. The Israeli government formally recognizes that Hamas observed it fully. Not a single Hamas rocket was fired until Israel broke the truce under cover of the US election on November 4 2008, invading Gaza on ludicrous grounds and killing half a dozen Hamas members. The Israeli government was advised by its highest intelligence officials that the truce could be renewed by easing the criminal blockade and ending military attacks. But the government of Ehud Olmert, reputedly a dove, chose to reject these options, preferring to resort to its huge comparative advantage in violence: Operation Cast Lead. The basic facts are reviewed once again by foreign policy analyst Jerome Slater in the current issue of the Harvard-MIT journal International Security.

The pattern of bombing under Cast Lead was carefully analyzed by the highly informed and internationally respected Gazan human rights advocate Raji Sourani. He points out that the bombing was concentrated in the north, targeting defenseless civilians in the most densely populated areas, with no possible military pretext. The goal, he suggests, may have been to drive the intimidated population to the south, near the Egyptian border. But the Samidin stayed put, despite the avalanche of US-Israeli terror.

A further goal might have been to drive them beyond. Back to the earliest days of the Zionist colonization it was argued across much of the spectrum that Arabs have no real reason to be in Palestine; they can be just as happy somewhere else, and should leave — politely "transferred," the doves suggested. This is surely no small concern in Egypt, and perhaps a reason why Egypt does not open the border freely to civilians or even to desperately needed materials

Sourani and other knowledgeable sources observe that the discipline of the Samidin conceals a powder keg, which might explode any time, unexpectedly, as the first Intifada did in Gaza in 1989 after years of miserable repression that elicited no notice or concern,

Merely to mention one of innumerable cases, shortly before the outbreak of the Intifada a Palestinian girl, Intissar al-Atar, was shot and killed in a schoolyard by a resident of a nearby Jewish settlement. He was one of the several thousand Israelis settlers brought to Gaza in violation of international law and protected by a huge army presence, taking over much of the land and scarce water of the Strip and living "lavishly in twenty-two settlements in the midst of 1.4 million destitute Palestinians," as the crime is described by Israeli scholar Avi Raz. The murderer of the schoolgirl, Shimon Yifrah, was arrested, but quickly released on bail when the Court determined that "the offense is not severe enough" to warrant detention. The judge commented that Yifrah only intended to shock the girl by firing his gun at her in a schoolyard, not to kill her, so "this is not a case of a criminal person who has to be punished, deterred, and taught a lesson by imprisoning him." Yifrah was given a 7-month suspended sentence, while settlers in the courtroom broke out in song and dance. And the usual silence reigned. After all, it is routine.

And so it is. As Yifrah was freed, the Israeli press reported that an army patrol fired into the yard of a school for boys aged 6 to 12 in a West Bank refugee camp, wounding five children, allegedly intending only "to shock them." There were no charges, and the event again attracted no attention. It was just another episode in the program of "illiteracy as punishment," the Israeli press reported, including the closing of schools, use of gas bombs, beating of students with rifle butts, barring of medical aid for victims; and beyond the schools a reign of more severe brutality, becoming even more savage during the Intifada, under the orders of Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin, another admired dove.

My initial impression, after a visit of several days, was amazement, not only at the ability to go on with life, but also at the vibrancy and vitality among young people, particularly at the university, where I spent much of my time at an international conference. But there too one can detect signs that the pressure may become too hard to bear. Reports indicate that among young men there is simmering frustration, recognition that under the US-Israeli occupation the future holds nothing for them. There is only so much that caged animals can endure, and there may be an eruption, perhaps taking ugly forms — offering an opportunity for Israeli and western apologists to self-righteously condemn the people who are culturally backward, as Mitt Romney insightfully explained.

Gaza has the look of a typical third world society, with pockets of wealth surrounded by hideous poverty. It is not, however, "undeveloped." Rather it is "de-developed," and very systematically so, to borrow the terms of Sara Roy, the leading academic specialist on Gaza. The Gaza Strip could have become a prosperous Mediterranean region, with rich agriculture and a flourishing fishing industry, marvelous beaches and, as discovered a decade ago, good prospects for extensive natural gas supplies within its territorial waters.   

By coincidence or not, that is when Israel intensified its naval blockade, driving fishing boats toward shore, by now to 3 miles or less.

The favorable prospects were aborted in 1948, when the Strip had to absorb a flood of Palestinian refugees who fled in terror or were forcefully expelled from what became Israel, in some cases expelled months after the formal cease-fire.

In fact, they were being expelled even four years later, as reported in Ha'aretz (25.12.2008), in a thoughtful study by Beni Tziper on the history of Israeli Ashkelon back to the Canaanites. In 1953, he reports, there was a "cool calculation that it was necessary to cleanse the region of Arabs." The original name, Majdal, had already been "Judaized" to today's Ashkelon, regular practice.

That was in 1953, when there was no hint of military necessity. Tziper himself was born in 1953, and while walking in the remnants of the old Arab sector, he reflects that "it is really difficult for me, really difficult, to realize that while my parents were celebrating my birth, other people were being loaded on trucks and expelled from their homes."

Israel's 1967 conquests and their aftermath administered further blows. Then came the terrible crimes already mentioned, continuing to the present day.

The signs are easy to see, even on a brief visit. Sitting in a hotel near the shore, one can hear the machine gun fire of Israeli gunboats driving fishermen out of Gaza's territorial waters and towards shore, so they are compelled to fish in waters that are heavily polluted because of US-Israeli refusal to allow reconstruction of the sewage and power systems that they destroyed.

The Oslo Accords laid plans for two desalination plants, a necessity in this arid region. One, an advanced facility, was built: in Israel. The second one is in Khan Yunis, in the south of Gaza. The engineer in charge of trying to obtain potable water for the population explained that this plant was designed so that it cannot use sea water, but must rely on underground water, a cheaper process, which further degrades the meager aquifer, guaranteeing severe problems in the future. Even with that, water is severely limited. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which cares for refugees (but not other Gazans), recently released a report warning that damage to the aquifer may soon become "irreversible," and that without remedial action quickly, by 2020 Gaza may not be a "liveable place."

Israel permits concrete to enter for UNRWA projects, but not for Gazans engaged in the huge reconstruction needs. The limited heavy equipment mostly lies idle, since Israel does not permit materials for repair. All of this is part of the general program described by Israeli official Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, after Palestinians failed to follow orders in the 2006 elections: "The idea," he said, "is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." That would not look good.

And the plan is being scrupulously followed. Sara Roy has provided extensive evidence in her scholarly studies. Recently, after several years of effort, the Israeli human rights organization Gisha succeeded to obtain a court order for the government to release its records detailing plans for the diet, and how they are executed. Israel-based journalist Jonathan Cook summarizes them: "Health officials provided calculations of the minimum number of calories needed by Gaza's 1.5 million inhabitants to avoid malnutrition. Those figures were then translated into truckloads of food Israel was supposed to allow in each day ... an average of only 67 trucks — much less than half of the minimum requirement — entered Gaza daily. This compared to more than 400 trucks before the blockade began." And even this estimate is overly generous, UN relief officials report.

The result of imposing the diet, Mideast scholar Juan Cole observes, is that "[a]bout ten percent of Palestinian children in Gaza under 5 have had their growth stunted by malnutrition ... in addition, anemia is widespread, affecting over two-thirds of infants, 58.6 percent of schoolchildren, and over a third of pregnant mothers." The US and Israel want to ensure that nothing more than bare survival is possible.

"What has to be kept in mind," observes Raji Sourani, "is that the occupation and the absolute closure is an ongoing attack on the human dignity of the people in Gaza in particular and all Palestinians generally. It is systematic degradation, humiliation, isolation and fragmentation of the Palestinian people." The conclusion is confirmed by many other sources. In one of the world's leading medical journals, The Lancet, a visiting Stanford physician, appalled by what he witnessed, describes Gaza as "something of a laboratory for observing an absence of dignity," a condition that has "devastating" effects on physical, mental, and social wellbeing. "The constant surveillance from the sky, collective punishment through blockade and isolation, the intrusion into homes and communications, and restrictions on those trying to travel, or marry, or work make it difficult to live a dignified life in Gaza." The Araboushim must be taught not to raise their heads.

There were hopes that the new Morsi government in Egypt, less in thrall to Israel than the western-backed Mubarak dictatorship, might open the Rafah crossing, the sole access to the outside for trapped Gazans that is not subject to direct Israeli control. There has been slight opening, but not much. Journalist Laila el-Haddad writes that the re-opening under Morsi, "is simply a return to status quo of years past: only Palestinians carrying an Israeli-approved Gaza ID card can use Rafah Crossing," excluding a great many Palestinians, including el-Haddad's family, where only one spouse has a card.

Furthermore, she continues, "the crossing does not lead to the West Bank, nor does it allow for the passage of goods, which are restricted to the Israeli-controlled crossings and subject to prohibitions on construction materials and export." The restricted Rafah crossing does not change the fact that "Gaza remains under tight maritime and aerial siege, and continues to be closed off to the Palestinians' cultural, economic, and academic capitals in the rest of the [occupied territories], in violation of US-Israeli obligations under the Oslo Accords."

The effects are painfully evident. In the Khan Yunis hospital, the director, who is also chief of surgery, describes with anger and passion how even medicines are lacking for relief of suffering patients, as well as simple surgical equipment, leaving doctors helpless and patients in agony. Personal stories add vivid texture to the general disgust one feels at the obscenity of the harsh occupation. One example is the testimony of a young woman who despaired that her father, who would have been proud that she was the first woman in the refugee camp to gain an advanced degree, had "passed away after 6 months of fighting cancer aged 60 years. Israeli occupation denied him a permit to go to Israeli hospitals for treatment. I had to suspend my study, work and life and go to set next to his bed. We all sat including my brother the physician and my sister the pharmacist, all powerless and hopeless watching his suffering. He died during the inhumane blockade of Gaza in summer 2006 with very little access to health service. I think feeling powerless and hopeless is the most killing feeling that human can ever have. It kills the spirit and breaks the heart. You can fight occupation but you cannot fight your feeling of being powerless. You can't even dissolve that feeling."

Disgust at the obscenity, compounded with guilt: it is within our power to bring the suffering to an end and allow the Samidin to enjoy the lives of peace and dignity that they deserve.

Noam Chomsky visited the Gaza Strip on October 25-30, 2012.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2012, 05:12:48 PM
Gaza: Israeli Forces Kill Palestinian Man


By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: November 5, 2012

A Palestinian in the Gaza Strip who died early Monday after he was shot by Israeli forces as he approached the border fence with Israel was mentally ill, his family said. Israeli forces shot the man, Ahmad Nabhani, 23, as he crawled toward the border on Sunday evening, partly concealed in a dried river bed, an Israeli military spokeswoman said. She said he ignored several warnings to stop. Mr. Nabhani later died of his wounds. "He was sick, he had a mental illness," said Mr. Nabhani's brother, Hazem, 27. He said his brother was being heavily medicated for depression and had approached the border fence three times previously. Each time, Israeli forces handed him back to Palestinian authorities, his brother said. "My brother didn't understand anything," he said. "Sometimes you'd speak to him and he wouldn't understand. It is like he wasn't there."

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 06, 2012, 07:17:26 PM
While it is a tragedy that someone with a mental disorder has lost their life, it is hardly the fault of the soldiers.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 03:27:04 PM
Israel back to doing what it does best...... Murdering children playing football.

Hamid's only crime was been born a Palestinian in the worlds largest open air prison


Gaza boy killed by Israel dreamed of becoming soccer player


Published today (updated) 10/11/2012 17:08

GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Hamid Younis Abu Daqqa, 13, always wore his Real Madrid shirt when he played soccer with his friends. He died wearing the shirt, killed by Israeli forces before the second half of a game with friends could be finished.

His father said Hamid would imitate Real Madrid star Ronaldo while playing in front of his Gaza home.

"My house is located in an area away from clashes, nearly one and a half kilometers away from the nearest point of the borders with Israel, therefore I didn't have a problem my son playing in front of the house," Hamid's father told Ma'an.

"I received a phone call. His friend was on the phone telling me that my son was shot in the chest. I rushed to the hospital and found him dying."

Hamid would never miss a Real Madrid game.




"Despite me pushing him to focus on his schoolwork, he would be mesmerized in front of the TV screen watching games," his father said.

Hamid used to play soccer every day for 30 minutes before sundown, his attention focused on the ball, blocking out the sound of Israel helicopters.

It was during a game he loved that Hamid was killed, his white Real Madrid shirt stained red as the bullets hit him.

Medics said Hamid was hit by machine gun fire, either from Israeli helicopters or tanks, during an incursion into the Gaza Strip on Thursday.

An Israeli army spokeswoman said at the time that reports of injuries were being checked.

Hamid's funeral took place on Friday, a Palestinian flag draped over his body.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 04:18:25 PM
In the past 30 minutes, Israel have launced several attacks on several locations in Gaza. One hit a crowded civilian area and 3 Palestinian teenagers, Ahmed Kamel Aldrdsawe, Mohammed Osama and Muhamad Al-Khor were murdered. 30 others, including several children were injured, 10 seriously.

Another airstrike hit a house, injuring 4 children from one family.

How much longer can the world sit back and allow this racist murder machine called Israel to continue it's ethnic cleansing of Palestine?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 10, 2012, 04:25:08 PM
Is that the WHOLE story? Did Israel just start firing into Gaza for no reason?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 10, 2012, 04:50:44 PM

Gaza Terrorists Hit IDF Jeep with Anti-Tank Missile

The jeep was hit and caught fire. It had been moving along the security fence.


AAFont Size
By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 11/10/2012, 12:00 AM




Arabs in Gaza say terrorists have hit an IDF jeep with an anti-tank missile.

The jeep reportedly caught fire. It had been driving along the border between Gaza and Israel, opposite the Zeitoun neighborhood in central Gaza, east of Gaza City.

Voice of Israel public radio said the jeep belonged to the Givati Brigade.

According to an Arab report, the IDF responded with heavy tank fire at the eastern part of Gaza and at an area east of Khan Younis. There were also reports of artillery fire and fire from helicopters.

"Two Palestinians were killed and 22 others wounded, six of them seriously," said spokesman Yahya Khader of the Hamas government's emergency services in Gaza, who was quoted by AFP. Voice of Israel radio said the unofficial death toll in Gaza was five.

On Thursday, a huge tunnel packed with hundreds of kilograms of explosives blew up near an IDF force. One soldier was lightly wounded
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on November 10, 2012, 05:05:55 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 10, 2012, 04:25:08 PM
Is that the WHOLE story? Did Israel just start firing into Gaza for no reason?
You have to go back to the 1940s. The Nazis murdered 6 million Jews. After the war the US and the British  gave them half of Palestine in sympathy. The Jews ethnically cleansed Southern Palestine and created a small enclave around Gaza into which they shunted all the Palestinians they didn't want in their Jewish state.  In 1967 for reasons nobody understands they occupied Gaza.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 05:10:27 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/10/world/meast/gaza-violence/

Gaza City (CNN) -- Three Palestinians were killed and 22 injured when Israeli tank fire hit a building east of Gaza City where hundreds of mourners were gathered for a funeral, Palestinian medical sources said Saturday.

Ten of those injured are in a serious condition, the medical sources said, and the number of deaths is expected to rise.

CNN has not yet been able to reach the Israeli military for comment on the incident.

Palestinian security sources said the Israeli artillery fire followed the detonation of a device by a Palestinian militant group targeting an Israeli military vehicle, near the border between Gaza and Israel.

In a separate incident, Palestinian medical sources in Khan Younis, in the south of the Gaza Strip, said an Israeli artillery shell hit a civilian house and injured a couple and their two children.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on November 10, 2012, 07:19:04 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 05:10:27 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/10/world/meast/gaza-violence/

Gaza City (CNN) -- Three Palestinians were killed and 22 injured when Israeli tank fire hit a building east of Gaza City where hundreds of mourners were gathered for a funeral, Palestinian medical sources said Saturday.

Ten of those injured are in a serious condition, the medical sources said, and the number of deaths is expected to rise.

CNN has not yet been able to reach the Israeli military for comment on the incident.

Palestinian security sources said the Israeli artillery fire followed the detonation of a device by a Palestinian militant group targeting an Israeli military vehicle, near the border between Gaza and Israel.

In a separate incident, Palestinian medical sources in Khan Younis, in the south of the Gaza Strip, said an Israeli artillery shell hit a civilian house and injured a couple and their two children.
Israel is like Japan in 1935. Run by a military cult who think their country is favoured by God and can do anything.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: haveaharp on November 10, 2012, 07:59:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2012, 07:19:04 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 05:10:27 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/10/world/meast/gaza-violence/

Gaza City (CNN) -- Three Palestinians were killed and 22 injured when Israeli tank fire hit a building east of Gaza City where hundreds of mourners were gathered for a funeral, Palestinian medical sources said Saturday.

Ten of those injured are in a serious condition, the medical sources said, and the number of deaths is expected to rise.

CNN has not yet been able to reach the Israeli military for comment on the incident.

Palestinian security sources said the Israeli artillery fire followed the detonation of a device by a Palestinian militant group targeting an Israeli military vehicle, near the border between Gaza and Israel.

In a separate incident, Palestinian medical sources in Khan Younis, in the south of the Gaza Strip, said an Israeli artillery shell hit a civilian house and injured a couple and their two children.
Israel is like Japan in 1935. Run by a military cult who think their country is favoured by God and can do anything.

Except that Japan didn't have the backing of America to do as they pleased in their region.
Cannot see anything changing anytime soon.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 09:42:09 PM
A further 2 people have died from injuries they recieved today when US/Israeli war planes attacked the mourners at a funeral. Another man has died from injuries as Israel continues to bomb Gaza, bringing the total killed today to 7.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on November 10, 2012, 10:59:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 09:42:09 PM
A further 2 people have died from injuries they recieved today when US/Israeli war planes attacked the mourners at a funeral. Another man has died from injuries as Israel continues to bomb Gaza, bringing the total killed today to 7.
It's pour encourager les autres. Gaza isn't supposed to have anti tank weapons.
Only the Jews are allowed to fight with 20th and 21st century technology.
Israel just wants peace. 
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: dillinger on November 11, 2012, 12:35:51 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 04:18:25 PM
In the past 30 minutes, Israel have launced several attacks on several locations in Gaza. One hit a crowded civilian area and 3 Palestinian teenagers, Ahmed Kamel Aldrdsawe, Mohammed Osama and Muhamad Al-Khor were murdered. 30 others, including several children were injured, 10 seriously.
Are you getting these names before the deceased families are or something?

I mean, in the last 30 minutes! :o
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: give her dixie on November 11, 2012, 12:42:37 AM
Quote from: dillinger on November 11, 2012, 12:35:51 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 10, 2012, 04:18:25 PM
In the past 30 minutes, Israel have launced several attacks on several locations in Gaza. One hit a crowded civilian area and 3 Palestinian teenagers, Ahmed Kamel Aldrdsawe, Mohammed Osama and Muhamad Al-Khor were murdered. 30 others, including several children were injured, 10 seriously.
Are you getting these names before the deceased families are or something?

I mean, in the last 30 minutes! :o

Whenever there are deaths in Palestine, the names of the dead are usually released upon identification. In the case of the above names, they were killed instantly at the funeral in front of hundreds of people, and their families, and so their names were released immediatly.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: haveaharp on November 14, 2012, 04:25:22 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20328579 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20328579)

Will this see a serious escalation ?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:36:22 PM
Hamas says now in 'open war' with Israel, promises 'gates of hell'

http://rt.com/news/hamas-open-war-israel-694/

In the past 2 hours, Israel launched an airstike on a car travelling in Gaza. It was another targeted assassination, and this time they murdered a top Hamas official, and 5 others.

This is a game changer, and the next few hours and days are going to be brutal.

How much punishment can the Palestinians take, and how much longer can the world allow Israel to murder, steal and kidnap at will?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02398/gazaFire2_2398593d.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSysiqT4_YjWW65gBOH4cN3aRnlqCrgTJhBAXwiQ1wuG9GTSgcWNA
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 04:54:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02398/gazaFire2_2398593d.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSysiqT4_YjWW65gBOH4cN3aRnlqCrgTJhBAXwiQ1wuG9GTSgcWNA
Abbas is going to the UN on the 27th for a vote , no veto, on UN membership as an observing state.
Israeli Jews are going to end up at the ICC for what they have done to Gaza. 

It is all going to fall apart for Zionism. 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2012, 05:05:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 04:54:53 PM
[. 

It is all going to fall apart for Zionism.
Not while their mates in Washington continue to support/back/encourage/let them run wild  >:(
Always amazes me how firing rockets into apartment blocks isn't terrorism if it's done by Israeli military personnel but if a Palestinian fires a shot at an Israeli miltary vehicle its " Terrorism most foul"
Then they wonder why the Muslim world is so anti US
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 05:39:54 PM
Not content with the assassinations today, the "IDF" have now uploaded an 11 second clip of the airstrike on the you tube channel. How sick can these people be? A young child was among the dead, and these sick bastards post the video on you tube.....
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02398/gazaFire2_2398593d.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSysiqT4_YjWW65gBOH4cN3aRnlqCrgTJhBAXwiQ1wuG9GTSgcWNA
You come on here every 15 minutes posting up details of the latest Israeli atrocity. You ignore any action by the Palestinians, such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20294335

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-kills-one-second-day-gaza-strikes-062552365.html

That's the result of a 10 second google search. I'm no expert on the middle east, but I recognise a complex, intractable historical conflict when I see one. You, on the other hand, see nothing but a story a child of 6 could understand, with good guys on one side and monsters on the others. Grow up, ffs!
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 05:54:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 14, 2012, 05:05:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 04:54:53 PM
[. 

It is all going to fall apart for Zionism.
Not while their mates in Washington continue to support/back/encourage/let them run wild  >:(
Always amazes me how firing rockets into apartment blocks isn't terrorism if it's done by Israeli military personnel but if a Palestinian fires a shot at an Israeli miltary vehicle its " Terrorism most foul"
Then they wonder why the Muslim world is so anti US
Israeli FM yesterday said it is more important that Israel be Jewish rather than Israel be a democracy.
Let's see how long that lasts.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 05:55:50 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 05:39:54 PM
Not content with the assassinations today, the "IDF" have now uploaded an 11 second clip of the airstrike on the you tube channel. How sick can these people be? A young child was among the dead, and these sick b**tards post the video on you tube.....
Israel is a military cult. 80% of the people are indoctrinated. Very hard to see how they could lobby for peace when their whole society is built around the army. 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ulick on November 14, 2012, 05:56:45 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G
You come on here every 15 minutes posting up details of the latest Israeli atrocity. You ignore any action by the Palestinians, such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20294335

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-kills-one-second-day-gaza-strikes-062552365.html

That's the result of a 10 second google search. I'm no expert on the middle east, but I recognise a complex, intractable historical conflict when I see one. You, on the other hand, see nothing but a story a child of 6 could understand, with good guys on one side and monsters on the others. Grow up, ffs!

From that BBC article:

"Israel says 11 rockets landed, one of which fell next to a house in Netivot. Several people were treated for shock.

Earlier, six Palestinians, including two militants, were killed in Israeli air strikes on Gaza, following an attack by militants on an army jeep."

Good one Myles, showing us just how proportional the Israeli actions are.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 05:57:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:36:22 PM
Hamas says now in 'open war' with Israel, promises 'gates of hell'

http://rt.com/news/hamas-open-war-israel-694/

In the past 2 hours, Israel launched an airstike on a car travelling in Gaza. It was another targeted assassination, and this time they murdered a top Hamas official, and 5 others.

This is a game changer, and the next few hours and days are going to be brutal.

How much punishment can the Palestinians take, and how much longer can the world allow Israel to murder, steal and kidnap at will?
Probably not as long as they allow the Hamas animals to fire rockets at Israeli civilians.

Go get 'em IDF.   UNLEASH HELL
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 06:02:56 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 05:57:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:36:22 PM
Hamas says now in 'open war' with Israel, promises 'gates of hell'

http://rt.com/news/hamas-open-war-israel-694/

In the past 2 hours, Israel launched an airstike on a car travelling in Gaza. It was another targeted assassination, and this time they murdered a top Hamas official, and 5 others.

This is a game changer, and the next few hours and days are going to be brutal.

How much punishment can the Palestinians take, and how much longer can the world allow Israel to murder, steal and kidnap at will?
Probably not as long as they allow the Hamas animals to fire rockets at Israeli civilians.

Go get 'em IDF.   UNLEASH HELL

Unleash hell and pay the bill at the ICC
Israel is all over the place concerning the palestinian application for UN observer status.
Even Jews have to face justice.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 06:36:14 PM
Quote from: Ulick on November 14, 2012, 05:56:45 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G
You come on here every 15 minutes posting up details of the latest Israeli atrocity. You ignore any action by the Palestinians, such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20294335

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-kills-one-second-day-gaza-strikes-062552365.html

That's the result of a 10 second google search. I'm no expert on the middle east, but I recognise a complex, intractable historical conflict when I see one. You, on the other hand, see nothing but a story a child of 6 could understand, with good guys on one side and monsters on the others. Grow up, ffs!

From that BBC article:

"Israel says 11 rockets landed, one of which fell next to a house in Netivot. Several people were treated for shock.

Earlier, six Palestinians, including two militants, were killed in Israeli air strikes on Gaza, following an attack by militants on an army jeep."

Good one Myles, showing us just how proportional the Israeli actions are.
OK, I'll extend the google search to 20 seconds. From the Human Rights Watch report on 2011:
Palestinian armed groups in Gaza launched hundreds of rocket attacks at Israeli population centers in 2011, killing two civilians and seriously injuring at least nine others; indiscriminate mortar attacks seriously injured at least four civilians in Israel. Another attack fatally injured an Israeli youth in a school bus. Egyptian attackers whom Israel claimed operated in coordination with armed groups in Gaza crossed the Egyptian border and killed six Israeli civilians.

Hamas authorities carried out three judicial executions in 2011 after unfair military trials, and allegedly tortured scores of detainees, some of whom died in custody.

The Palestinian Authority's (PA) security services arbitrarily detained hundreds of Hamas supporters as well as politically unaffiliated protesters who supported the pro-democracy Arab Spring movements and reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah. The PA also arrested journalists who were critical of the authorities. Credible allegations of torture by the PA's security services continued.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-israeloccupied-palestinian-territories

Plenty of stuff in there too about Israeli atrocities. I'm not defending them. I'm just saying it's not the black and white story GHD would have us believe.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 06:38:54 PM
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/il%5Egolan.gif)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 06:40:37 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02398/gazaFire2_2398593d.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSysiqT4_YjWW65gBOH4cN3aRnlqCrgTJhBAXwiQ1wuG9GTSgcWNA
You come on here every 15 minutes posting up details of the latest Israeli atrocity. You ignore any action by the Palestinians, such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20294335

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-kills-one-second-day-gaza-strikes-062552365.html

That's the result of a 10 second google search. I'm no expert on the middle east, but I recognise a complex, intractable historical conflict when I see one. You, on the other hand, see nothing but a story a child of 6 could understand, with good guys on one side and monsters on the others. Grow up, ffs!


If you go back through the thread you will see that I only reported on the deaths in Gaza, and not on how many missiles and bullets that are fired at them. That would make the number of rockets pale in comparrison. No Israeli to the best of my knowledge has been killed by a rocket from Gaza this year.

You post a link to a story about rockets. Sure even a 6 year old would know that the headline is a lie:
"Israel says 79 rockets fired at it from Gaza"
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
Todays attacks from Israel have come as a direct result of the 150 rockets fired into Israel in the last week.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 06:55:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
Todays attacks from Israel have come as a direct result of the 150 rockets fired into Israel in the last week.
It's because there's an election coming up soon in Israel and Gaza needs a whupping. It happens every time the Jews vote.
That is the system that runs in Israel. Talk peace but depend on violence.  If Israel were to end the occupation there would be an intra Jewish civil war so it's easier to bomb the shit out of Gaza.

Israel turned into a sad Jewish state. It is very hard to believe that the people prayed for 19 centuries and ended up with  sociopaths like Netanyahu and Lieberman running the promised land. 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 07:28:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 06:55:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
Todays attacks from Israel have come as a direct result of the 150 rockets fired into Israel in the last week.
It's because there's an election coming up soon in Israel and Gaza needs a whupping. It happens every time the Jews vote.
That is the system that runs in Israel. Talk peace but depend on violence.  If Israel were to end the occupation there would be an intra Jewish civil war so it's easier to bomb the shit out of Gaza.

Israel turned into a sad Jewish state. It is very hard to believe that the people prayed for 19 centuries and ended up with  sociopaths like Netanyahu and Lieberman running the promised land.

I don't think there is anyone on this board who talks a bigger load of aul balls than you.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 07:36:53 PM
(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/Resizer.ashx/news/250/168/382745.jpg)

Hey Bibi, we sure fooled those Hamas scumbags into thinking we were more concerned about Syria.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 08:00:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 07:28:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 06:55:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
Todays attacks from Israel have come as a direct result of the 150 rockets fired into Israel in the last week.
It's because there's an election coming up soon in Israel and Gaza needs a whupping. It happens every time the Jews vote.
That is the system that runs in Israel. Talk peace but depend on violence.  If Israel were to end the occupation there would be an intra Jewish civil war so it's easier to bomb the shit out of Gaza.

Israel turned into a sad Jewish state. It is very hard to believe that the people prayed for 19 centuries and ended up with  sociopaths like Netanyahu and Lieberman running the promised land.

I don't think there is anyone on this board who talks a bigger load of aul balls than you.

Carlo Strenger knows what is happening

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/an-open-letter-to-akiva-eldar-looking-beyond-the-two-state-solution.premium-1.477593#

Maybe it will work in our favor: if we present Israel's citizens with the details of a one-state solution, they might conceivably wake up. They might realize that they keep electing parties that lead them into catastrophe.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 08:16:49 PM
To the "hard" man sending me the threatening pms, go f**k yerself.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 08:34:08 PM
Israeli elections preceded by attacks on Gaza : 1955,1961
1981,1996,2009
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 09:24:11 PM
This is Uri Avnery's (Gush Shalom) first commentary:

Press Release 11/14/2012
Avnery on the deliberate cynicism

Netanyahu and Barak have decided to deliberately violate a cease-fire which had just been stabilized.
At the price of great and ongoing suffering on both sides of the border, the government's aim had been accomplished: social issues will be removed from the public agenda and the election campaign

"Binyamin Netanyahu and Ehud Barak have decided – for the second time in a row the State of Israel will conduct general elections under the shadow of war in the Gaza Strip. The cease-fire which already started to stabilize has been broken deliberately and shattered to pieces. The inhabitants of the communities of southern Israel, who just started to breathe freely, are sent right back to air raid alarms and to running to shelters" said former Knesset Member Uri Avnery of Gush Shalom.

"At the price of great suffering on both sides of the border, the government's aim has been accomplished: the social issues, which threatened to assume prominence in these elections, have been pushed aside and removed from the agenda of the elections campaign. Forgotten, too, is the brave attempt of Mahmoud Abbas to address the Israeli public opinion. In the coming weeks, the headlines will be filled with constant war and death, destruction and bloodshed. When it ends at last, it will be revealed that no goal has been achieved and that the problems remain the same, or perhaps exacerbated. "
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 09:36:22 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-killed-its-subcontractor-in-gaza.premium-1.477886

Ahmed Jabari was a subcontractor, in charge of maintaining Israel's security in Gaza. This title will no doubt sound absurd to anyone who in the past several hours has heard Jabari described as "an arch-terrorist," "the terror chief of staff" or "our Bin Laden."

But that was the reality for the past five and a half years. Israel demanded of Hamas that it observe the truce in the south and enforce it on the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. The man responsible for carrying out this policy was Ahmed Jabari.

In return for enforcing the quiet, which was never perfect, Israel funded the Hamas regime through the flow of shekels in armored trucks to banks in Gaza, and continued to supply infrastructure and medical services to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip. Jabari was also Israel's partner in the negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit; it was he who ensured the captive soldier's welfare and safety, and it was he saw to Shalit's return home last fall.

The assassination of Jabari will go down in history as another showy military action initiated by an outgoing government on the eve of an election.

This is what researcher Prof. Yagil Levy has called "fanning the conflict as an intra-state control strategy:" The external conflict helps a government strengthen its standing domestically because the public unites behind the army, and social and economic problems are edged off the national agenda.

This recipe is familiar from 1955, when David Ben-Gurion returned from his exile in Sde Boker and led the Israel Defense Forces to a retaliatory action in Gaza, and his party, Mapai, to victory in the election. (Barak recalled this period with nostalgia, when he spoke last week at a memorial for Moshe Dayan). Ever since, whenever the ruling party feels threatened at the ballot box, it puts its finger on the trigger. The examples are common knowledge: the launch of the Shavit 2 missile in the summer of 1961, in the midst of the Lavon affair; the bombing of the Iraqi reactor in 1981; Operation Grapes of Wrath in Lebanon in 1996, and Operation Cast Lead in Gaza on the eve of the 2009 election. In the two latter cases, the military action turned into a defeat in the election.

There is a disagreement among historians as to whether it is necessary to add the Yom Kippur War to the list. In that conflict, which broke out on the eve of the 1973 election, the Arabs fired first, but their decision to go to war was taken in the context of the increasingly extreme position of Prime Minister Golda Meir's government ¬ which had refused Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's peace offer and declared an expansion of Israeli settlements in Sinai.

This, for example, is the opinion of researchers Prof. Motti Golani and Shoshana Ishoni-Barri.

The current operation, Pillar of Cloud, belongs in the same category. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is interested in neutralizing every possible rival, and Defense Minister Ehud Barak is fighting for enough votes to return to the Knesset. A war against Hamas will wipe out the electoral aspirations of the ditherer, Ehud Olmert, whose disciples expected him to announce his candidacy this evening ¬ and it will kick off the agenda the "social and economic issue" that serves the Labor Party headed by MK Shelly Yacimovich.

Israel is a madhouse
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 09:40:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 09:36:22 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-killed-its-subcontractor-in-gaza.premium-1.477886

Ahmed Jabari was a subcontractor, in charge of maintaining Israel's security in Gaza. This title will no doubt sound absurd to anyone who in the past several hours has heard Jabari described as "an arch-terrorist," "the terror chief of staff" or "our Bin Laden."

But that was the reality for the past five and a half years. Israel demanded of Hamas that it observe the truce in the south and enforce it on the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. The man responsible for carrying out this policy was Ahmed Jabari.

In return for enforcing the quiet, which was never perfect, Israel funded the Hamas regime through the flow of shekels in armored trucks to banks in Gaza, and continued to supply infrastructure and medical services to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip. Jabari was also Israel's partner in the negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit; it was he who ensured the captive soldier's welfare and safety, and it was he saw to Shalit's return home last fall.

The assassination of Jabari will go down in history as another showy military action initiated by an outgoing government on the eve of an election.

This is what researcher Prof. Yagil Levy has called "fanning the conflict as an intra-state control strategy:" The external conflict helps a government strengthen its standing domestically because the public unites behind the army, and social and economic problems are edged off the national agenda.

This recipe is familiar from 1955, when David Ben-Gurion returned from his exile in Sde Boker and led the Israel Defense Forces to a retaliatory action in Gaza, and his party, Mapai, to victory in the election. (Barak recalled this period with nostalgia, when he spoke last week at a memorial for Moshe Dayan). Ever since, whenever the ruling party feels threatened at the ballot box, it puts its finger on the trigger. The examples are common knowledge: the launch of the Shavit 2 missile in the summer of 1961, in the midst of the Lavon affair; the bombing of the Iraqi reactor in 1981; Operation Grapes of Wrath in Lebanon in 1996, and Operation Cast Lead in Gaza on the eve of the 2009 election. In the two latter cases, the military action turned into a defeat in the election.

There is a disagreement among historians as to whether it is necessary to add the Yom Kippur War to the list. In that conflict, which broke out on the eve of the 1973 election, the Arabs fired first, but their decision to go to war was taken in the context of the increasingly extreme position of Prime Minister Golda Meir's government ¬ which had refused Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's peace offer and declared an expansion of Israeli settlements in Sinai.

This, for example, is the opinion of researchers Prof. Motti Golani and Shoshana Ishoni-Barri.

The current operation, Pillar of Cloud, belongs in the same category. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is interested in neutralizing every possible rival, and Defense Minister Ehud Barak is fighting for enough votes to return to the Knesset. A war against Hamas will wipe out the electoral aspirations of the ditherer, Ehud Olmert, whose disciples expected him to announce his candidacy this evening ¬ and it will kick off the agenda the "social and economic issue" that serves the Labor Party headed by MK Shelly Yacimovich.

Israel is a madhouse

::)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 10:08:55 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 06:40:37 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02398/gazaFire2_2398593d.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSysiqT4_YjWW65gBOH4cN3aRnlqCrgTJhBAXwiQ1wuG9GTSgcWNA
You come on here every 15 minutes posting up details of the latest Israeli atrocity. You ignore any action by the Palestinians, such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20294335

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-kills-one-second-day-gaza-strikes-062552365.html

That's the result of a 10 second google search. I'm no expert on the middle east, but I recognise a complex, intractable historical conflict when I see one. You, on the other hand, see nothing but a story a child of 6 could understand, with good guys on one side and monsters on the others. Grow up, ffs!


If you go back through the thread you will see that I only reported on the deaths in Gaza, and not on how many missiles and bullets that are fired at them. That would make the number of rockets pale in comparrison. No Israeli to the best of my knowledge has been killed by a rocket from Gaza.

You post a link to a story about rockets. Sure even a 6 year old would know that the headline is a lie:
"Israel says 79 rockets fired at it from Gaza"
Why does that not surprise me? (the bit about your knowledge, I mean).
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 14, 2012, 10:12:31 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 10:08:55 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 06:40:37 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02398/gazaFire2_2398593d.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSysiqT4_YjWW65gBOH4cN3aRnlqCrgTJhBAXwiQ1wuG9GTSgcWNA
You come on here every 15 minutes posting up details of the latest Israeli atrocity. You ignore any action by the Palestinians, such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20294335

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-kills-one-second-day-gaza-strikes-062552365.html

That's the result of a 10 second google search. I'm no expert on the middle east, but I recognise a complex, intractable historical conflict when I see one. You, on the other hand, see nothing but a story a child of 6 could understand, with good guys on one side and monsters on the others. Grow up, ffs!


If you go back through the thread you will see that I only reported on the deaths in Gaza, and not on how many missiles and bullets that are fired at them. That would make the number of rockets pale in comparrison. No Israeli to the best of my knowledge has been killed by a rocket from Gaza.

You post a link to a story about rockets. Sure even a 6 year old would know that the headline is a lie:
"Israel says 79 rockets fired at it from Gaza"
Why does that not surprise me? (the bit about your knowledge, I mean).
More people die in Israel from pea nut allergies than rockets from Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 14, 2012, 10:20:57 PM
More Irishmen were killed by the IRA, than the Brits (1969 - 1994).
Who's the bad guy?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 14, 2012, 10:44:20 PM
Some very bad pictures coming out of Palestine tonight this little girl was one of the zionist victims.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/BALLINTOY/549025_492427737456030_1061900425_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: boojangles on November 14, 2012, 10:49:01 PM
Quote from: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 14, 2012, 10:44:20 PM
Some very bad pictures coming out of Palestine tonight this little girl was one of the zionist victims.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/BALLINTOY/549025_492427737456030_1061900425_n.jpg)

Spotted with a rocket launcher no doubt.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 11:02:56 PM
Quote from: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 14, 2012, 10:12:31 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 10:08:55 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 06:40:37 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02398/gazaFire2_2398593d.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSysiqT4_YjWW65gBOH4cN3aRnlqCrgTJhBAXwiQ1wuG9GTSgcWNA
You come on here every 15 minutes posting up details of the latest Israeli atrocity. You ignore any action by the Palestinians, such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20294335

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-kills-one-second-day-gaza-strikes-062552365.html

That's the result of a 10 second google search. I'm no expert on the middle east, but I recognise a complex, intractable historical conflict when I see one. You, on the other hand, see nothing but a story a child of 6 could understand, with good guys on one side and monsters on the others. Grow up, ffs!


If you go back through the thread you will see that I only reported on the deaths in Gaza, and not on how many missiles and bullets that are fired at them. That would make the number of rockets pale in comparrison. No Israeli to the best of my knowledge has been killed by a rocket from Gaza.

You post a link to a story about rockets. Sure even a 6 year old would know that the headline is a lie:
"Israel says 79 rockets fired at it from Gaza"
Why does that not surprise me? (the bit about your knowledge, I mean).
More people die in Israel from pea nut allergies than rockets from Gaza.
I've seen that line hundreds of times. Every time I see it, I ask the writer / speaker to provide some evidence to back it up. What've you got?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: give her dixie on November 15, 2012, 12:01:25 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 10:08:55 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 06:40:37 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 14, 2012, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 14, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02398/gazaFire2_2398593d.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSysiqT4_YjWW65gBOH4cN3aRnlqCrgTJhBAXwiQ1wuG9GTSgcWNA
You come on here every 15 minutes posting up details of the latest Israeli atrocity. You ignore any action by the Palestinians, such as:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20294335

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-kills-one-second-day-gaza-strikes-062552365.html

That's the result of a 10 second google search. I'm no expert on the middle east, but I recognise a complex, intractable historical conflict when I see one. You, on the other hand, see nothing but a story a child of 6 could understand, with good guys on one side and monsters on the others. Grow up, ffs!


If you go back through the thread you will see that I only reported on the deaths in Gaza, and not on how many missiles and bullets that are fired at them. That would make the number of rockets pale in comparrison. No Israeli to the best of my knowledge has been killed by a rocket from Gaza this year.

You post a link to a story about rockets. Sure even a 6 year old would know that the headline is a lie:
"Israel says 79 rockets fired at it from Gaza"
Why does that not surprise me? (the bit about your knowledge, I mean).

Sorry, typo. I meant killed this year.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 12:07:39 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 08:34:08 PM
Israeli elections preceded by attacks on Gaza : 1955,1961
1981,1996,2009
Israeli elections preceded by attacks from pals......

Every f**kin one of them.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: give her dixie on November 15, 2012, 12:24:18 AM
It's fair to say that the tension has been raised to a level not seen in 4 years in Gaza since Cast Lead.
Israel has once again used the Palestinians in Gaza as an election issue. Pure evil.

For hours today F16's Drones, and Apache helicopters roamed the skies of Gaza. 8 people were killed and over 50 injured. Among tthe dead was an 11 month old daughter of a BBC Arabic reporter.

Ahmed Jabari was a high ranking Hamas leader and his death today, along with the others, has sparked what will be a brutal few days ahead.

As expected, the US State Dept backed Israel and their right to defend themselves. No mention on how the Palestinians have any right to defend themselves from settlers.

Israel have been itching to launch something big on Gaza for a while now. They took the opportunity of the US election results and their own upcoming election to go mental once again.

Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 12:27:33 AM
Again the lies continue. Where are the settlers in Gaza?

LIAR
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: theskull1 on November 15, 2012, 01:39:58 AM
Ball DB

Are you even remotely interested in GAA? ALL of your contributions on this site are related to this conflict. Is the israeli lobby rich enough to pay for trolls on meaningless forums like this?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 01:43:31 AM
Sorry, my mistake. I thought this was the non GAA section.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: theskull1 on November 15, 2012, 01:53:58 AM
 ::)

So you join a GAA forum solely to post about a single topic (more or less) in the non GAA section.    ???

Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: dec on November 15, 2012, 03:25:59 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on November 15, 2012, 01:53:58 AM
::)

So you join a GAA forum solely to post about a single topic (more or less) in the non GAA section.    ???

He joined in 2006.

His first post on the middle east was this thread.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 03:34:12 AM
You should have let him figure that out for himself.


I don't have to justify myself to anyone. If you don't agree with my argument, then counter it. Play the ball, not the man.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 06:27:19 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 12:07:39 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2012, 08:34:08 PM
Israeli elections preceded by attacks on Gaza : 1955,1961
1981,1996,2009
Israeli elections preceded by attacks from pals......

Every f**kin one of them.
what are pals? Isn't it a dog food?
You crack me up. You don't have the tribal paranoia required to make a proper hasbara bot. You have the words but it all falls short.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 07:37:13 AM

Three Killed in Grad Rocket Attack on Kiryat Malachi

IDF troops are on alert as the funeral for top Hamas terrorist Ahmed Jaabari takes place


AAFont Size
By David Lev
First Publish: 11/15/2012, 7:38 AM


Mendy Gil


At least three people killed Thursday morning when a Grad rocket hit an apartment building in Kiryat Malachi. Five other people were injured in the attack, with three in serious to critical condition. Rescue teams hurried to the scene to treat the injured, who were taken for treatment in a Beersheva hospital. Among the injured was a two year old baby. Sources said that the buiding hit by the rocket was in the Chabad neighborhood of the city.

Initial reports said that one person had been killed, with at least five injured, three of them critically. Israel Radio said that lifesaving teams had attempted to revive the critically injured, but declared two of them dead when the attempts failed. The five were among a large group that had taken refuge in an old building that suffered a direct hit from a Grad rocket. Rescue teams were trying to remove victims of the attack from the rubble, and were preparing for the possibility of more casualties, Magen David Adom officials said.

A heavy barrage of Grad and Katyusha rockets was fired at the main population centers in southern Israel Thursday morning. Red Alert warnings were heard in Ashdod, Ashkelon, Kiryat Malachi, Beersheva, and Ofakim. Speaking live from Beersheva at around 8:00 AM Israel time, Israel Radio's correspondent counted at least a dozen missiles hitting in the area of the city. The IDF said that several of the rockets fired at Ashdod and Ashkelon were intercepted by the Iron Dome rocket interception system.

IDF officials expected the barrage to continue throughout Thursday morning, as Gazans prepare to bury Ahmed Jaabari, commander of Hamas's "military" terror wing, who was eliminated Wednesday night, takes place. The IDF was on alert throughout the country, saying that terror activity was likely to increase, with possible rioting by Arabs in PA controlled areas of Judea and Samaria, and a strong likelihood that terrorists would attempt to kidnap IDF soldiers or Israeli civilians.

The IDF eliminated three Hamas terrorists early Thursday, Israel Radio said, as Gaza Arab terrorists continued to hammer Israeli towns and villages with rockets. Several rockets were fired at the Be'ersheva and Ofakim areas on Thursday morning. The three were members of Hamas' military wing, the IDF said. Since midnight Wednesday, about 30 rockets were fired at Israeli targets, for a total of over 110 since the beginning of the Pillar of Defense operation Wednesday night.

The UN Security Council, at an emergency closed session, discussed the situation in Gaza without coming to any decisions. But during the meeting, U.S. Ambassador to the UN strongly defended Israel, saying that said there was no justification for the violence that "Hamas and other terrorist organizations" are aiming at Israel.

"We call on those responsible to stop these cowardly acts immediately," Rice said, adding that the rocket attacks were harming efforts to end the Middle East conflict and create a PA state. "Hamas claims to have the best interests of the Palestinian people at heart, yet it continues to engage in violence that does nothing but set back the Palestinian cause," said the US ambassador, who is considered a frontrunner to become the next US secretary of state. "Attacking Israel on a near daily basis does nothing to help Palestinians in Gaza nor to move the Palestinian people any closer to achieving self determination and independence," Rice said.

The IDF reported that it had destroyed dozens of rocket launching pads and hundreds of weapons in Gaza overnight, including many long-range missiles that Israeli officials fear could be fired at the Tel Aviv area. On Thursday morning, IDF planes dropped tens of thousands of flyers over Gaza cities and towns, warning civilians to stay away from Hamas terror bases and rocket-launching sites, lest they be caught up in an Israeli attack on a legitimate target.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162111 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162111)


Maybe there was a meeting of the Israeli joint chiefs of staff in the building, and thats why it was targetted. But then again, maybe it was just because they were jews, any jews.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 07:46:51 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 06:27:19 AM
what are pals? Isn't it a dog food?
You crack me up. You don't have the tribal paranoia required to make a proper hasbara bot. You have the words but it all falls short.
Decisions, decisions. Do I play the ball, or do I play the man?  ::)

If your argument stacks up, then so be it, but you obviously don't think it does, so have to resort to petty name calling.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 07:59:25 AM

Fighting Terror While Minimizing Harm to Gaza Civilians

In wake of the battle against terror, the IDF is emphasizing via the media and the web that much effort is made to avoid civilian casualties


AAFont Size
By Yoni Kempinski
First Publish: 11/15/2012, 9:01 AM




In wake of the current IDF operation against terror, the Israeli army is emphasizing through the media and the Internet that it is doing its utmost to avoid civilian casualties when striking back against the Hamas terror organization. The IDF is placing recorded telephone calls, dropping warning leaflets and even diverting missiles mid-flight if civilians are spotted in the line of fire.


On Thursday morning, the army dispersed leaflets above several locations in the Gaza Strip. These leaflets warn the residents of the Gaza Strip to stay away from Hamas, and other terror organizations', operatives and facilities that pose a risk to their safety.



The IDF Spokesman Unit explains that the leaflets stress that Hamas is dragging the region toward violence, and that the IDF is prepared to defend the residents of the State of Israel until quiet is restored to the region:

(http://a7.org/Resizer.ashx?source=albums&image=45984&a=460&b=950)


"For your own safety, take responsibility for yourselves and avoid being present in the vicinity of Hamas operatives and facilities and those of other terror organizations that pose a risk to your safety. Hamas is once again dragging the region to violence and bloodshed. The IDF is determined to defend the residents of the State of Israel. This announcement is valid until quiet is restored to the region. Israel Defense Forces Command."


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162112 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162112)

Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 08:36:25 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 07:46:51 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 06:27:19 AM
what are pals? Isn't it a dog food?
You crack me up. You don't have the tribal paranoia required to make a proper hasbara bot. You have the words but it all falls short.
Decisions, decisions. Do I play the ball, or do I play the man?  ::)

If your argument stacks up, then so be it, but you obviously don't think it does, so have to resort to petty name calling.
You are wearing the wrong equipment.
It's senior hurling and you run onto the pitch in a pair of budgie smugglers.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 08:40:55 AM
BDB

Keep the IDF spin coming. It's gas. 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 09:32:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 08:40:55 AM
BDB

Keep the IDF spin coming. It's gas.

The death of 3 Israeli civilians isn't "spin". If you condemn the deaths of Palestinian civilians then this must be condemned also, otherwise you are nothing but a mirror image of your enemy.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 10:03:14 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 09:32:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 08:40:55 AM
BDB

Keep the IDF spin coming. It's gas.

The death of 3 Israeli civilians isn't "spin". If you condemn the deaths of Palestinian civilians then this must be condemned also, otherwise you are nothing but a mirror image of your enemy.
3 dead Israelis isn't spin but the rest of his stuff is.
The IDF wants to minimise casulaties- WTF.

RIP for the 3 dead Jews. 
But they died for the greater good of a Likud election victory.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 10:11:57 AM
I used to support the Palestinians in their struggle but the fanaticism on this thread makes it hard to keep it up. Even there you couldn't condemn the deaths of Israeli's without a cheap dig.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 10:11:57 AM
I used to support the Palestinians in their struggle but the fanaticism on this thread makes it hard to keep it up. Even there you couldn't condemn the deaths of Israeli's without a cheap dig.

I'm not surprised that Israelis were killed today.   
There is no military solution to the problem. Every death in the conflict is pointless.
But Israelis are not interested in changing the status quo either. The whole thing is a dysfunctional system.
The system says Jews are superior to Palestinians and only Jews have the right to live in Greater Israel.
If Palestinians are driven to nihilism maybe the system needs another look. Killing Jews won't solve anything. it's counterproductive as well as wrong but the whole thing is FUBR.   


It's far worse than Sunningdale for slow learners. Hamas are useless but they are no worse than Israel's leaders.

Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Hardy on November 15, 2012, 10:21:33 AM
People "weren't surprised" David Black was killed either. Others condemned the killing.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 10:35:59 AM
Quote from: Hardy on November 15, 2012, 10:21:33 AM
People "weren't surprised" David Black was killed either. Others condemned the killing.

I don't think killing anyone for political reasons is justified Hardy. Maybe it would help to say that Gaza is more like a drugs feud than anything else.

Norn Irn is run on the basis of the rule of law.  Gaza isn't. There is no court for Gazans who are killed by Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTaPGAvEdF0

Perhaps there will be if the Palestinians get a majority at the UN vote on observer status. That would allow them to bring Israeli war criminals to the ICC.   
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Nally Stand on November 15, 2012, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 10:11:57 AM
I used to support the Palestinians in their struggle but the fanaticism on this thread makes it hard to keep it up. Even there you couldn't condemn the deaths of Israeli's without a cheap dig.

So your level of commitment to supporting the people of Palestine is chiefly determined by what some Galway fella writes on a discussion forum?  :o
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Nally Stand on November 15, 2012, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 10:35:59 AM
I don't think killing anyone for political reasons is justified

Ever?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 11:00:13 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 15, 2012, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 10:11:57 AM
I used to support the Palestinians in their struggle but the fanaticism on this thread makes it hard to keep it up. Even there you couldn't condemn the deaths of Israeli's without a cheap dig.

So your level of commitment to supporting the people of Palestine is chiefly determined by what some Galway fella writes on a discussion forum?  :o

When you see the type of rhetoric you are associating with it can be hard to associate yourself with the same, yes. Similar to people losing faith in militant republicanism when it commits to drive by shootings of prison officers along the M1.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 11:06:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 10:11:57 AM
I used to support the Palestinians in their struggle but the fanaticism on this thread makes it hard to keep it up. Even there you couldn't condemn the deaths of Israeli's without a cheap dig.

I'm not surprised that Israelis were killed today.   
There is no military solution to the problem. Every death in the conflict is pointless.
But Israelis are not interested in changing the status quo either. The whole thing is a dysfunctional system.
The system says Jews are superior to Palestinians and only Jews have the right to live in Greater Israel.
If Palestinians are driven to nihilism maybe the system needs another look. Killing Jews won't solve anything. it's counterproductive as well as wrong but the whole thing is FUBR.   


It's far worse than Sunningdale for slow learners. Hamas are useless but they are no worse than Israel's leaders.
The exact same rhetoric is used by the anti-Zionist side which regularly calls for the destruction of Israel. No-one here is saying that Hamas are worse than the Israeli leaders but a balanced opinion now and again such as that last post wouldn't go amiss.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Nally Stand on November 15, 2012, 11:14:03 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 11:00:13 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 15, 2012, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 10:11:57 AM
I used to support the Palestinians in their struggle but the fanaticism on this thread makes it hard to keep it up. Even there you couldn't condemn the deaths of Israeli's without a cheap dig.

So your level of commitment to supporting the people of Palestine is chiefly determined by what some Galway fella writes on a discussion forum?  :o

When you see the type of rhetoric you are associating with it can be hard to associate yourself with the same, yes. Similar to people losing faith in militant republicanism when it commits to drive by shootings of prison officers along the M1.

OK, so when it comes to forming your opinions, Seafoids writings carry equal weight as people who shoot prison guards?  ???

I just never though you were the type of person who would be so easily led that you would change your outlook on a major world conflict solely because of what some lad in Galway wrote on a gaa forum!
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 11:23:17 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 11:06:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: trileacman on November 15, 2012, 10:11:57 AM
I used to support the Palestinians in their struggle but the fanaticism on this thread makes it hard to keep it up. Even there you couldn't condemn the deaths of Israeli's without a cheap dig.

I'm not surprised that Israelis were killed today.   
There is no military solution to the problem. Every death in the conflict is pointless.
But Israelis are not interested in changing the status quo either. The whole thing is a dysfunctional system.
The system says Jews are superior to Palestinians and only Jews have the right to live in Greater Israel.
If Palestinians are driven to nihilism maybe the system needs another look. Killing Jews won't solve anything. it's counterproductive as well as wrong but the whole thing is FUBR.   


It's far worse than Sunningdale for slow learners. Hamas are useless but they are no worse than Israel's leaders.
The exact same rhetoric is used by the anti-Zionist side which regularly calls for the destruction of Israel. No-one here is saying that Hamas are worse than the Israeli leaders but a balanced opinion now and again such as that last post wouldn't go amiss.
Trileacman

Have a look at this interview with a senior Israeli minister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPVTC9frqMA

It's not some dispute over a field. Do the Palestinians have the right to live in "Greater Israel".

A senior member of Netanyahu's government says they don't. Apartheid is what they have and if they don't like it they can f*** off.   

There isn't going to be a Palestinian state. Why not? 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 04:18:37 PM
To read some of the bull on this thread you would think Israel are just firing at will at the civilians of Gaza. They aren't. Hamas and it's allies are firing indiscriminately into Israel, with the hope that they kill as many jews as possible. Israel are specifically targetting known senior terrorist members, weapons caches and firing points for rockets. All of these are using the civilian population of Gaza as cover.
If Israel just wanted to kill as many pals as possible, then it could use some of it's considerable weaponry at their disposal, not just the odd missile at a moving car.
Civilian casualties are deeply regretted, and should be avoided, but sometimes they are unavoidable. The strike on     al jabari is a good example of how Israel target these people. His car was allowed to reach the junction (the widest point) to minimise the number of civilians in the area.
If Israel were to fire indiscriminately at unarmed civilians, I would have no hesitation in condeming them for it, as I have in the past. If the pals were to target only military targets in their rocket attacks, I could not condem them for it. They don't. They only target civilians, and as long as they do that then I will continue to demonise these vile pieces of filth as the murdering scum they are.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 04:26:03 PM

Miraculous Recovery by Injured Gaza Man?

Pallywood is in high gear as Gazans dupe BBC viewers in time-honored style.


AAFont Size
By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 11/15/2012, 5:25 PM





Barely one day into the fighting in Hamas-run Gaza, the locals are hard at work playing the victim for the world's press.

Footage from the BBC captured by watchdog group Honest Reporting shows a heavy man lying on the ground and being carried away by residents, apparently after being injured by an Israeli attack.

Moments later, that same man again fills the frame, except he is walking about and obviously unhurt.

The widespread staging of such victim situations is a favored tactic of Arabs fighting Israel and has come to be known as "Pallywood." Because Israel is stronger militarily, the Arabs cling to the underdog image of poor refugees under occupation and siege by evil Israelis, thus eliciting sympathy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kvaUmIB87-M

Welcome to the wonderful world of Pallywood, where everyone is a victim.


Don't believe everything you are told about the Israelis, and certainly don't believe everything you see.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 04:38:56 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 04:26:03 PM

Miraculous Recovery by Injured Gaza Man?

Pallywood is in high gear as Gazans dupe BBC viewers in time-honored style.


AAFont Size
By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 11/15/2012, 5:25 PM





Barely one day into the fighting in Hamas-run Gaza, the locals are hard at work playing the victim for the world's press.

Footage from the BBC captured by watchdog group Honest Reporting shows a heavy man lying on the ground and being carried away by residents, apparently after being injured by an Israeli attack.

Moments later, that same man again fills the frame, except he is walking about and obviously unhurt.

The widespread staging of such victim situations is a favored tactic of Arabs fighting Israel and has come to be known as "Pallywood." Because Israel is stronger militarily, the Arabs cling to the underdog image of poor refugees under occupation and siege by evil Israelis, thus eliciting sympathy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kvaUmIB87-M

Welcome to the wonderful world of Pallywood, where everyone is a victim.


Don't believe everything you are told about the Israelis, and certainly don't believe everything you see.
It's obviously the Messiah ! 

TBH this Israeli propaganda is sick when Israel is  killing civilians in Gaza.

And when a whole people is denied basic rights because they aren't Jewish , because they weren't chosen by God, they are all victims.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 04:47:41 PM
I see you have the sense not to deny it. Thats a good boy, you're learning.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: fitzroyalty on November 15, 2012, 04:59:51 PM
Anyone siding with the Israelis need their f**king head looked at.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 05:02:13 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 04:47:41 PM
I see you have the sense not to deny it. Thats a good boy, you're learning.  ;)
I presume its BS like most hasbara. Even if it were true it won't keep Israeli commanders away from the ICC
when TSHTF .
the notion that Israel is a normal country that just wants peace is ludicrous.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 05:08:10 PM
So Gaza was Israel's gift to Obama before his inauguration, and now upon his reelection. "Obama do you enjoy when Israel takes a [expletive deleted] in your lap after you win election to the most powerful office on Earth?" Scott Roth tweeted, while Ian Bremmer reported the inevitable news from the president's news conference:
Israel the most mentioned country in the Pres Debate on Foreign Policy. Israel & Gaza go to war and no questions in press conf. #irony
— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) November 14, 2012
They hear America loud and clear in the West Bank, and it is the sound of indifference; and the bully goes wild once again.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 05:13:35 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/15/israel-gaza-militants-deadly-exchanges-live?commentpage=last#end-of-comments

The White House spokesman Jay Carney has condemned the rocket fire from Gaza, saying there is "no justification" for Hamas's violence. He called on those responsible to stop the "cowardly acts" immediately.
Carney said Hamas claimed to have the best interests of the Palestinians at heart, but its use of violence was counterproductive to the Palestianian cause, the Associated Press reports.


Last year..


The Secretary General of the UN asked Abbas to abandon any further action on his statehood bid after the US defunded UNESCO. The Secretary General is part of one of the major organs of the UN, the Secretariat. After the UNESCO vote, he has no choice other than to accept treaty instruments from Palestine, like every other State. If he or the UN Treaty Organization extend the rights reserved for a State to Palestine, they risk loosing their funding from the US government.

The US and EU have been blocking action on the Advisory Opinion and dozens of fact finding mission reports concerning war crimesand crimes against humanity. They have also been blocking the criminal complaint that Palestine filed with the ICC and resisting efforts to reconvene the Geneva Conference of High Contracting Parties to take action on the 2004 ICJ Advisory Opinion. For example, when Palestine asked for membership in the UN, the US promised to veto the application and lobbied the other members of the Security Council to withhold support.

http://www.haaretz.com/misc/iphone-article/israel-palestinian-economy-not-stable-enough-for-independent-state-1.419358

Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 05:26:12 PM
Would you buy a poppy? No, because you know where some of the money it raises goes to people you don't want it to go to.
The Yanks don't want any of their money going to a state they can't trust to use it properly.

It's not that f**king hard to understand.  ::)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2012, 05:35:13 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 05:26:12 PM
Would you buy a poppy? No, because you know where some of the money it raises goes to people you don't want it to go to.
The Yanks don't want any of their money going to a state they can't trust to use it properly.

It's not that f**king hard to understand.  ::)
It's not about money. It's about the US doing everything it can to deny the Palestinians a state.
It's about the power and the autism of the Jewish lobby

for something that is "not that f**king hard to understand" how did you miss it ?  8)

Here's another example

Ms Nuland is White house Press secretary.


QUESTION: So the next time Human Rights Watch comes out with a report that's critical of Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians, I'll assume that you're going to be saying the same thing, correct; that you think that the report is credible, it's based on eyewitness accounts?
MS. NULAND: As --
QUESTION: And you're not going to say that it's politically motivated and should be dismissed?
MS. NULAND: Matt, as you have made clear again and again in this room, we are not always consistent.
Goyal.
QUESTION: So, in other words, anything that Human Rights Watch says that is critical of someone you don't like, that's okay; but once they criticize someone that you do like, then it's not worth the paper it's printed on?
MS. NULAND: Matt, I'm not going to get into colloquy on this one.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 16, 2012, 10:48:00 PM
Ha'aretz reporting that a rocket that landed in a West Bank Jewish settlement was fired from the Sinai in Egypt. If this is true then Israel's monopoly on the use of violence to get its way has been challenged and their famous "deterrence" is no longer working. 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-rockets-slam-into-israel-s-south-in-third-day-of-idf-operation-in-gaza-1.478193#article_comments

9:13 P.M. Rockets fired from direction of Egypt toward Eshkol Regional Council (Haaretz)

11:07 P.M.The Israeli cabinet approved the request of Defense Minister Ehud Barak to call-up 75,000 additional reservists. The draft order is due to take effect within a few hours. During Operation Cast Lead, some 10,000 reservists were drafted and during the Second Lebanon War, some 60,000 reservists were drafted.


Will they go into Egypt ?

It looks like Netanyahu's gamble of assassinating someone in Gaza for a poll jump may have turned into something much worse. 

Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 17, 2012, 02:18:46 AM
After seeing countless pictures of dead children from Gaza tonight I thought a bout Netanyahu and his war criminals. How come they get to live? For something they instigated. While innocent people some only little innocent babies, some still in there mothers womb have to die a horrendous death. There only crime being they were born into a different culture that the "might is right" abhor ed. Would it be hard for the Palestinians to get at the right people who are directly responsible for there sufferings? 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 17, 2012, 04:11:21 AM

Children of Slain Chabad Woman in Better Condition

The husband and children of Mirah Scharf are in better condition Friday after suffering wounds in the rocket attack that took her life.


AAFont Size
By Maayana Miskin
First Publish: 11/16/2012, 2:09 PM


(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/Resizer.ashx/news/250/168/383164.jpg)

Mirah Scharf (right)

Courtesy of the family


The husband and children of Mirah Scharf are in better condition Friday after being wounded Thursday morning in a rocket attack on Kiryat Malachi.

The four remain hospitalized in Tel Hashomer. Father Shmuel, 29, is in moderate condition, four-year-old Yosef Yitzchak is in moderate to light condition, and young Hana (2) and Geula (8 months) are both in good condition.

The children have not yet been told that their mother was killed in the attack.

The Scharf family was in Israel temporarily, and normally lives in New Delhi, India, where they serve as Chabad emissaries and usually host 100 people for Sabbath meals.

They were intending to attend a memorial ceremony Thursday for Gavriel and Rivka Holtzberg, the young Chabad couple murdered by terrorists four years ago in Mumbai, India.

Mirah Scharf was killed in the attack, as were Ahron Smadja, 49, and Yitzchak Amsallem, 24. Her funeral Thursday was attended by many of the Israeli backpackers who met her in India.

Her father-in-law, Rabbi Yehoshua Scharf, recalled her as devoted to her work. "In our generation everyone is looking for luxury, but they lived in minimalist conditions in a Chabad house that was open to the public 24 hours a day," he said.



Just in case you're wondering, her children were yards away from her when she was murdered, narrowly missing death. But that doesn't matter, does it? Only palestinian kids get killed, don't they.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: give her dixie on November 17, 2012, 09:34:24 AM
Well, as expected the past few days have been brutal. 40 Palestinians killed, and over 350 injured, many seriously. Countless buildings and infrastructure destroyed, and fear and panic instilled in 1.6 million people. 3 Israeli's have also been killed and others injured. And to top it off, Israel have called up 75,000 reservists to go along with their existing army and are seriously threatening a ground invasion that will be nothing short of a blood bath.

Israel have been itching for a chance to attack Gaza again. They have bid their time following Cast Lead 4 years ago. The general feeling in Israel is that they didn't go far enough the last time. Plus, they got off Scott Free for killing 1,400 people in 22 days. 400 were children.

So, when they executed Jabari last Wednesday, they knew that it would stoke the flames and that Hamas would have no option but to retaliate with rockets, and then they would have the excuse to go into Gaza full bore. Boy have they gone in. As I type this, over 200 missiles have rained down on Gaza since midnight, killing 8 and injuring scores of others. Over 1,000 in total since Wednesday.

Unsurprisingly, the US and the UK have given their full support to Israel in this latest round of attacks. Arnt they 2 great nations sitting back and giving the green light for the murder of men women and children locked up in the worlds largest prison by the 4th best equipped army in the world who also happen to have 500 undeclared nuclear weapons. What beacons of humanity and democracy they really are.

As the past few days have gone by, one Israeli spokesperson after another has been on the airwaves spouting the same lies over and over again. However, day by day, as the truth emerges from Gaza, they are been shown up for what they are. Not human.

It is also worth bearing in mind that Hamas are a democratically elected Government in Gaza. Israel is directly targeting the leadership, and have destroyed several of the main Government buildings. Their homes have been destroyed, and everyone is a target. Targeting the democratically elected Government of 1.6 million people is beyond belief. Democracy eh?

To be honest, Israel have manufactured this whole thing knowing full well the consequences. They are testing and teasing a number of countries with their behavior, chiefly Iran. Add to this Egypt and their new Government, Turkey, Tunisia, Lebannon, and Qatar and it is a messy mix.

The Egyptian Prime Minister visited Gaza yesterday. While they were visiting a hospital, bodies of young children were brought in following an airstrike on their home. Today, 12 members of the Tunisian Government have arrived. The Government building they were to meet in was destroyed after the Egyptian Prime Minister met the Hamas Government. Just hours before the Tunisian ministers arrived today, Israel destroyed a school they built. Israel made sure to show them what they are capable of, and how much they respect them.

4 years ago as Gaza was been pulverised, no journalists were allowed in, and Egypt closed the gates at Rafah. Today, it's a different story. Plus, twitter and facebook have been red hot over the past few days where images and video are been shared and viewed instantly. The images emerging from Gaza are absolutely horrific and heartbreaking. The main stream media are not trusted as their biased reporting is exposed.

The next 24 hours are going to be crucial. Will Israel invade or not. If they do, they will no doubt go in full tilt. The consequences will be many as it will draw in the above mentioned countries who will not sit idly by this time around if Gaza is attacked. Israel knows this, and if they can get to Iran this way, they will play the game. Because that is what all this is to them as they carry out their plans to take all of the Palestinian land. This time though, they might have bit off more than they can handle........

Sadly though, a lot of people will die and get injured on both sides while a lunatic army continues its aggression on a defenseless people.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: JimStynes on November 17, 2012, 09:44:11 AM
What is the best website to follow what is really going on?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Minder on November 17, 2012, 10:33:26 AM
RNU fights back......

Stall paintbombed in Castlecourt


A stall has been paintbombed in a busy Belfast shopping centre by a man who claimed to be protesting over the Israeli offensive on Gaza.
The incident happened in Castlecourt on Friday at 1.50pm when the shopping centre was packed with Christmas shoppers.



Republican Network for Unity (RNU) have admitted carrying out the attack on the stall, which sells cosmetics using Dead Sea Salt.

Over 20 Palestinians and three Israelis have been killed in attacks by both sides following Israel's assassination of Ahmed Jabari, the Hamas military chief, in a drone strike on his car on Wednesday.

Hundreds of rockets have been fired into Israel, who has responded with airstrikes during three days of fighting.

Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore has condemned the escalation of violence which he said has put the lives of innocent civilians at risk.

In a statement RNU said that six balloons filled with red paint were launched from a balcony overlooking the stall.

Police are appealing to anyone who witnessed the incident or has information in relation to it to contact them.

© UTV News
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: give her dixie on November 17, 2012, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: JimStynes on November 17, 2012, 09:44:11 AM
What is the best website to follow what is really going on?


Jim, it is best to follow on twitter as it is a constant stream of news as it happens and links to photo's video's and news articles.

https://twitter.com/search?q=gaza&src=savs
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 17, 2012, 12:51:00 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A72oXrWCAAAHIdL.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 17, 2012, 01:32:07 PM


Breaking News



PMO spokesman: 60 Gazan rockets hit Palestinian civilians

By JPOST.COM STAFF

11/17/2012 14:55


Sixty out of the 703 rockets Hamas fired during the four days of Operation Pillar of Defense fell inside the Gaza Strip on Palestinian civilians, PMO Spokesman said on Twitter on Saturday.

Only 27 of the rockets fell on urban areas in Israel.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 17, 2012, 02:09:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 17, 2012, 01:32:07 PM


Breaking News



PMO spokesman: 60 Gazan rockets hit Palestinian civilians

By JPOST.COM STAFF

11/17/2012 14:55


Sixty out of the 703 rockets Hamas fired during the four days of Operation Pillar of Defense fell inside the Gaza Strip on Palestinian civilians, PMO Spokesman said on Twitter on Saturday.

Only 27 of the rockets fell on urban areas in Israel.
So why the big panic ?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 17, 2012, 05:37:53 PM

Op-Ed: Spare Us the Pieties on Gaza

Published: Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:25 PM

Disproportion? Innocents in Gaza? Give me a break!




Jack Engelhard
Jack Engelhard is the author of "The Bathsheba Deadline" and "Indecent Proposal", as well as the award-winning memoir of his experiences as a Jewish refugee from Europe, "Escape From Mount Moriah". His latest novel, "The Girls of Cincinnati," is available on Amazon. He can be reached at his website www. jackengelhard. com.


Frankly, given a choice, I prefer the skinheads and other brutes who express their anti-Semitism openly. In such places, we know the enemy.

But please spare me the pieties and the righteous indignation of those "good people" protesting throughout Europe
You called it "peace" as long as the Arabs were doing the killing and the Jews were doing the dying.
against Israel's defensive operation in Gaza. True, thousands have taken up banners in support of Israel and Jews all over the world are expressing support. At the same time, however, the streets of Europe (and even some in America) are in an uproar. These are the "humanitarians" - the good, the noble, the refined, who chant "peace."

Now you're up and about? Now you speak? Where were you when, throughout the years, thousands of jihadist bombs fell on Israel? The streets of Europe were empty. There were no pictures in the newspapers of grieving Jewish mothers and fathers, of frightened old people and children. You called it "peace" as long as the Arabs were doing the killing and the Jews were doing the dying. All was well with the world.

Suddenly, as Israel answers back, you found your Cause; and how self-righteous you are in your Cause.

You are the best and the brightest of Europe. You are educated. You attended the finest schools. You care for the birds, the bees, the bears, the trees. You favor free speech and freedom of religion. Strange it is that the one and only place in the Middle East that shares your world-view is Israel, and it is Israel that you slander.

Israel is a Jewish State. Is that your problem? At the first hint of Jewish self-defense, how quickly you show your true colors.

I've seen the photos of your candlelight vigils along the streets and boulevards of Europe, all of it; all these tears in the service of those terrorists whom you call your brothers. Indeed you are related to Hamas (and Fatah) as once before, a mere generation ago, you were related to Hitler's stormtroopers. Your angelic faces are touching - and disgusting. Your hypocrisy is transparent and nauseating.

You speak of disproportion. You want proportion? Give Israel a population of 300 million residing in 22 countries, similar to the Arab Muslims who surround and ambush Israel - instead of six million Jews in one single country. There's plenty of "proportion" coming from your BBC, which delights in presenting one side of the story and picks up where Der Sturmer left off. Now, with this type of "news", we know how Europe was conditioned for a Holocaust.

Already we see Nights of Broken Glass. Thank you, Europe, for reminding us why America was discovered just in time (and why Israel was redeemed many generations too late). You dare judge Israel? In your deportations, your expulsions, your forced conversions, your inquisitions, your pogroms, you have no moral authority over Israel or even within your own borders. You gave all that up from 1492 to 1942.

To those on the Left who sought peace, well, dear peace-lovers, peace brought this on. "Land for Peace" made this happen, as Land for Peace became Land for Jihad. "Painful Concessions" caused this war. "Goodwill Gestures"
You have no moral authority over Israel or even within your own borders.
backfired. Want more "peace"? Give up the Golan Heights. Give up the entire "West Bank". Give up Jerusalem. Imagine the "peace."

As for those "innocent civilians" in Gaza, they were given a choice and they chose Hamas. They chose this pestilence.

As for those "refugee camps" - why are they "refugee camps" when Israel handed over all that territory for a nation to be built in peace and security alongside Israel? Why are all Palestinians automatically refugees even after they've been given a home? The only true refugees are the thousands of Israelis who were driven from Gaza and still live in trailer parks. No tears for them in this world that still dreams of Auschwitz.

Once, in response to a column I wrote about Theresienstadt, someone responded that I was incorrect; that Theresienstadt was not a prelude to Auschwitz, but rather "a vacation resort." I wrote back wishing this person a lifetime in such vacation resorts. I wish the same lifetime vacation resorts to all those parading throughout the streets of Europe or demonstating in New York at the Israeli Consulate, with banners crying, "Death to Israel."

God bless the IDF! Go Israel!


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12456 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12456)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: red hander on November 17, 2012, 06:01:19 PM
BalldeBeaver, you're obviously an Israeli government plant, part of a well established policy by Jerusalem to bombard opposition worldwide whether it be TV, radio, internet etc with pro-Israeli propaganda to excuse the inexcusable as your masters prepare (once again) to do exactly what the SS did in Warsaw Ghetto... There is little difference between those Nazi scum and the IDF, a shower of murdering bastards... Go play your get out jail card and brand me an anti-semite... GO HAMAS!
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 17, 2012, 06:12:55 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/14269_4828403064914_455146190_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on November 17, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
Very apt.
Two gangs of supremacist cnuts.

When will goldenboy Obama pull the plug on the Hitlerite warmongering Zionist racist Israeli Government and rogue state?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on November 17, 2012, 06:43:49 PM
A hitlerite, Zionist Israeli.  ;D
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: ludermor on November 17, 2012, 07:29:44 PM
Quote from: red hander on November 17, 2012, 06:01:19 PM
BalldeBeaver, you're obviously an Israeli government plant, part of a well established policy by Jerusalem to bombard opposition worldwide whether it be TV, radio, internet etc with pro-Israeli propaganda to excuse the inexcusable as your masters prepare (once again) to do exactly what the SS did in Warsaw Ghetto... There is little difference between those Nazi scum and the IDF, a shower of murdering b**tards... Go play your get out jail card and brand me an anti-semite... GO HAMAS!
ffs will ya get over yourself, are you accusing seafoid and ghd of beings plants? The propaganda flow doesnt have to flow one way.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: red hander on November 17, 2012, 07:36:58 PM
I didn't mention Seafoid or GHD, you did, so you get over yourself, arsehole
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: tyssam5 on November 17, 2012, 08:20:32 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 04:18:37 PM
To read some of the bull on this thread you would think Israel are just firing at will at the civilians of Gaza. They aren't. Hamas and it's allies are firing indiscriminately into Israel, with the hope that they kill as many jews as possible. Israel are specifically targetting known senior terrorist members, weapons caches and firing points for rockets. All of these are using the civilian population of Gaza as cover.
If Israel just wanted to kill as many pals as possible, then it could use some of it's considerable weaponry at their disposal, not just the odd missile at a moving car.
Civilian casualties are deeply regretted, and should be avoided, but sometimes they are unavoidable. The strike on     al jabari is a good example of how Israel target these people. His car was allowed to reach the junction (the widest point) to minimise the number of civilians in the area.
If Israel were to fire indiscriminately at unarmed civilians, I would have no hesitation in condeming them for it, as I have in the past. If the pals were to target only military targets in their rocket attacks, I could not condem them for it. They don't. They only target civilians, and as long as they do that then I will continue to demonise these vile pieces of filth as the murdering scum they are.

I'm sure they'll get the white phosphorous out soon enough. Between that and the cluster-bombs they have the terrorism down to a fine art.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: red hander on November 17, 2012, 08:43:36 PM
Gaza has been under siege for over 7 years by the Israelis who control absolutely everything that goes into the area... Where have we heard this before, oh yes, I remember, the Warsaw ghetto, who would have believed the Israelis would have learned so many lessons from the murdering bastards that treated the jews of Poland so badly... Israel is an absolute disgrace and their military is a shower of murdering bastards, exactly like the scum of Hitler's SS... There's irony for you, folks
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 17, 2012, 09:23:14 PM
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Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: red hander on November 17, 2012, 09:40:56 PM
Just the latest holocaust against innocent Arab men, women and children, Israel really is the scum of the Earth, but alas, because I criticise it, my argument is non-valid, because I'm an anti-Semite, according to those murdering Israeli b**tards
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 17, 2012, 10:46:07 PM
It is just beyond belief that Israel is getting away with this mass slaughter without one word of condemnation from the west. The photo's above only tell a fraction of the true reality. Fcuk Israel, Fcuk the US for backing them, and fcuk the horse they both rode in on. The 2 greatest threats to world peace.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 17, 2012, 11:05:06 PM
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Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 17, 2012, 11:43:59 PM
Quote from: red hander on November 17, 2012, 09:40:56 PM
Just the latest holocaust against innocent Arab men, women and children, Israel really is the scum of the Earth, but alas, because I criticise it, my argument is non-valid, because I'm an anti-Semite, according to those murdering Israeli b**tards

Well said.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on November 18, 2012, 12:03:23 AM
Quote from: hardstation on November 17, 2012, 11:02:55 PM
A boy my da knows has recently moved home having spent the last 20 years in Israel. He reckons that "the Jews in Israel are the biggest shower of cúnts in the world".

He was telling my da that some hoor rushed in to bunk him in the queue for a bus. This fella pulled him about it (only using words) when some boy soldier weighed in threatening to shoot him for challenging a Jew. According to him, he was lucky as many have been shot for similar.

Why did he stay 20 years then? I don't think there's too many white foreigners been shot in bus queues in fairness?

I was there a couple of times for work. People I met seemed for the most part secular and 'normal'. Thinking everyone on both sides or one side is a complete lunatic would be short sighted, especially for people who have grown up in a divided society ourselves.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 18, 2012, 12:17:09 AM
Ball DeBeaver any comment on Israel supplying weapons to loyalist terrorists in the north?

I assume you approved of this and their use in the murder of Catholics.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 18, 2012, 12:19:16 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how steadfast the Palestinians really are. Here they are once again getting pulverized in their homeland by a nuclear armed murderous regime made up of squatters. They are standing up to their fleet of over 250 F16's and F whatever the latest killing machine that the US taxpayers send them every week. Apache murder machines, and the up to date lethal weapon called a Drone. A large fleet of war ships patrol their coast, and they get their kicks from shooting fishermen and sinking their old boats.

They have been locked up now for that many years, the siege has just become a way of life. For survival, they dig 1 km tunnels to bring in food. Israel takes great pride in bombing these tunnels, and then tell the world that they destroyed an "arms smuggling tunnel". A few years ago, the US taxpayers paid millions to install an underground 12" thick plate, 500 metres underground, cutting off all the lifeline tunnels. The Palestinians responded by digging deeper or spending 2 days with cutting gas and cutting a large hole in the steel. Within a few months, all life line tunnels were back to full capacity. Money well spent on the under ground steel wall.

They have the highest rate of amputee's and wheel chair users per head of capita such is the amount of injuries received over the years. Every single family in the strip has had a relative killed or injured over the years.

80% of the population are refugee's and rely on the UN for food. They are part of the 7 million Palestinian refugee's scattered across the middle east in similar camps. They live in poor conditions and still hold the keys to their homes they were forced out of in 1948. Their homes now occupied by squatters from across the world who get to live there because they are Jews.

Unemployment in Gaza is at 60 to 70%, and well over half of the population are under 18. I delivered more goods to the UK in the past 10 days than Gaza was allowed to export all year.

When you consider how they have to live, you have to wonder why people ask "Why do they fire rockets"



Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 18, 2012, 12:49:52 AM
Some tweets coming out now.....

BREAKING| More than FIFTEEN Israeli Apaches are hovering over Nussairat refugee camp, central #Gaza Strip !!

Two children killed in an airstrike on a house in #Gaza city, 6 journalists injured on building for media offices.

Jon Donnison ‏@JonDonnison
This is what we are hearing in #Gaza city in last 10 minutes or so. Not edited. Sounds like Israeli shelling from sea. http://soundcloud.com/jondonnison/sunday-shelling-from-at-sea ...

BREAKING: #IOF now are striking buildings that host press offices in Gaza, injuries reported

According to #Gaza radio, two children have been killed in Jabalia and ten civilians injured, presumably by naval fire. #GazaUnderAttack

Jon Donnison ‏@JonDonnison
Terrible lifts & lighting in Shawa and Hussari building which we believe just been hit. Around 12 floors high. Difficult 2 get out of. #Gaza

alex thomson ‏@alextomo
#c4news #gaza local reports say 6 journalists injured in Israeli attack on news agency building
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 18, 2012, 01:11:08 AM
You got to hand it to Israel, they launch "Surgical Strikes" on the media buildings where all the journalists are. 6 have been taken to hospital and a local TV station destroyed.....

How will Mark Regev spin this one?

Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 50 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 18, 2012, 01:47:45 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/17/israel-gaza-us-policy

According to Haaretz, Israel's Interior Minister, Eli Yishai, said this about Israel's attacks on Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 18, 2012, 01:51:37 PM
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on November 18, 2012, 12:17:09 AM
Ball DeBeaver any comment on Israel supplying weapons to loyalist terrorists in the north?

I assume you approved of this and their use in the murder of Catholics.
That's antisemitic, er ..
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza and murder top Hamas leader
Post by: seafoid on November 18, 2012, 01:54:09 PM
Quote from: tyssam5 on November 17, 2012, 08:20:32 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 15, 2012, 04:18:37 PM
To read some of the bull on this thread you would think Israel are just firing at will at the civilians of Gaza. They aren't. Hamas and it's allies are firing indiscriminately into Israel, with the hope that they kill as many jews as possible. Israel are specifically targetting known senior terrorist members, weapons caches and firing points for rockets. All of these are using the civilian population of Gaza as cover.
If Israel just wanted to kill as many pals as possible, then it could use some of it's considerable weaponry at their disposal, not just the odd missile at a moving car.
Civilian casualties are deeply regretted, and should be avoided, but sometimes they are unavoidable. The strike on     al jabari is a good example of how Israel target these people. His car was allowed to reach the junction (the widest point) to minimise the number of civilians in the area.
If Israel were to fire indiscriminately at unarmed civilians, I would have no hesitation in condeming them for it, as I have in the past. If the pals were to target only military targets in their rocket attacks, I could not condem them for it. They don't. They only target civilians, and as long as they do that then I will continue to demonise these vile pieces of filth as the murdering scum they are.

I'm sure they'll get the white phosphorous out soon enough. Between that and the cluster-bombs they have the terrorism down to a fine art.
Not to mention the depleted uranium.

And anyone who objects is told either

A you are an antisemite
b it is worse in Somalia
c if the Palestinians loved their children none of this would happen

Zionism will destroy mainstream Judaism.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 18, 2012, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 18, 2012, 01:11:08 AM
You got to hand it to Israel, they launch "Surgical Strikes" on the media buildings where all the journalists are. 6 have been taken to hospital and a local TV station destroyed.....

How will Mark Regev spin this one?
When did Regev become a surgeon? 

Here is Regev telling Paxo that a UN school in Gaza Israel bombed was used by Hamas to fire on Israel 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wv0giW1elo

Israel recently admitted that the story was bullshit

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-tv-admits-no-rockets-were-ever-fired-unrwa-schools-gaza-during-cast-lead

Never trust a Zionist junkie.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 50 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 18, 2012, 02:50:48 PM
" Hamas and it's allies are firing indiscriminately into Israel, with the hope that they kill as many jews as possible."

This is utter horseshit. AND THE USE OF "IT'S" IS DEPLORABLE.

In 2011 2 people  in Israel were killed by a palestinian rocket. This year 3 have died

As for genocide, at the going kill rate, it would require 4,477,714,286 rockets and mortars, and 4,477,714 years to kill all the Jews in Israel

What is far more dangerous and needs to be wiped out is the Israeli institution of marriage

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4151492,00.html

Twenty-three Israeli women were murdered by their partners in 2011, according to data published by Women's International Zionist Organization (WIZO) ahead of the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women on Friday

However don't hold Your breath.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: ludermor on November 18, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: red hander on November 17, 2012, 07:36:58 PM
I didn't mention Seafoid or GHD, you did, so you get over yourself, arsehole
Why the need to get personal and cast insults? Do you really think the israeli gov would plant someone on a gaa board in 2006 to get ready for a 2012 propaganda brief?
And i know you didnt mention GHD or Seafoid but they constanly post links from the complete opposite to BDB views but you dont accuse them of being plants.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 50 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 18, 2012, 05:05:07 PM
Gods chosen people have just destroyed a house in Gaza killing 11 members of the same family. 5 children and 4 women among the dead.

This is just so so sad at this stage. This isn't a war, its a massacre
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 50 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on November 18, 2012, 05:10:30 PM
Another of the many massacres perpetrated by the Zionist Supremacists on the Palestinian people since 1948.
Meanwhile Goldenboy Obama gives the Zionists his full imprimatur while the rest of the "Free world" looks the other way and continues to engage in silly adventures in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 50 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 18, 2012, 05:36:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 18, 2012, 05:10:30 PM
Another of the many massacres perpetrated by the Zionist Supremacists on the Palestinian people since 1948.
Meanwhile Goldenboy Obama gives the Zionists his full imprimatur while the rest of the "Free world" looks the other way and continues to engage in silly adventures in Afghanistan.


And how can the west arm, support, fund and recognise a bunch of unelected gangsters in Lybia and Syria as the true leaders in those countries, and yet, at the same time, arm, support, and fund another bunch of gangsters in their attempt to over throw a democratically Government in Gaza.

Democracy, western style it seems......
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 50 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 18, 2012, 06:09:43 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 18, 2012, 05:05:07 PM
Gods chosen people have just destroyed a house in Gaza killing 11 members of the same family. 5 children and 4 women among the dead.

This is just so so sad at this stage. This isn't a war, its a massacre

It isn't war . It's apartheid. Zionism is an addiction to violence. God only knows how it is related to Judaism.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 40 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 18, 2012, 07:37:36 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on November 17, 2012, 05:37:53 PM

Op-Ed: Spare Us the Pieties on Gaza

Published: Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:25 PM

Disproportion? Innocents in Gaza? Give me a break!




Jack Engelhard
Jack Engelhard is the author of "The Bathsheba Deadline" and "Indecent Proposal", as well as the award-winning memoir of his experiences as a Jewish refugee from Europe, "Escape From Mount Moriah". His latest novel, "The Girls of Cincinnati," is available on Amazon. He can be reached at his website www. jackengelhard. com.




As for those "innocent civilians" in Gaza, they were given a choice and they chose Hamas. They chose this pestilence.


God bless the IDF! Go Israel!


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12456 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12456)
@BDB

I presume you agree with what you post. So let's take the highlighted sentence back 31 years to a by election in Norn Irn.
Eoin Carron was Bobby Sand's election agent and when the latter died during the hunger strikes he was elected by a landslide in Fermanagh South Tyrone.

Now imagine that the catholics of that constituency got the Gaza treatment. Any catholic business within the area slowly strangled by customs rules. All catholics restricted to 2000 calories per day.  Every 4 years FST bombed with F16s. No rebuilding allowed in between.  Anyone trying to travel to Armagh or Derry shot on sight at the fence surrounding the constituency.  30% of catholic women develop anemia. 10% severely malnourished.   

When the FG?labour coalition   in Dublin complain to London the following year Norman Tebbit replies with


As for those "innocent civilians" in Fermanagh South Tyrone, they were given a choice and they chose Sinn Fein . They chose this pestilence

And that is the logic that you apply to the Palestinians.
Obviously all the Ulster posters on the board would agree with you. 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 19, 2012, 12:44:19 AM
I remember seeing a BBC documentary a few years ago where BBC journalists were chased away from an illegal West Bank settlement by a Zionist settler brandishing an offensive machine gun and an even more offensive Texan accent. Today on BBC news a Russian Zionist immigrant in Israel proper was interviewed and she suggested that Israel flatten Gaza just like Russia did to Chechnya in their war. Just made me think Israel might need to alter its immigration polices.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 19, 2012, 12:48:55 AM
Gilad Sharon, nephew of murderous vegetable Ariel Sharon, is just as bloodthirsty as his uncle.

"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too."

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=292466
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 19, 2012, 02:01:21 AM
My God in heaven Israel is carpet bombing Gaza right now, many dead..
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 19, 2012, 04:22:59 AM
Another family wiped out by Gods chosen people, fully funded by the US taxpayers.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 08:46:03 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/haaretz-poll-more-than-90-percent-of-israeli-jews-support-gaza-war.premium-1.478903#

Six days into the aerial attack on Gaza, 84 percent of the Israeli public supports Operation Pillar of Defense, with 12 percent opposing it, according to a Haaretz-Dialog poll taken Sunday. The poll surveyed proportional samples of Jews and Arabs, indicating that Jewish support for the war stands at upwards of 90 percent.
Previous experience shows that from now on, it will only get worse for the leadership as matters become more complicated and the public's exuberance wears off.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 09:09:04 AM
How to get war approval rates in excess of 90% :

You need to doctor some pictures

http://972mag.com/on-facebook-idf-illustrates-palestinian-violence-with-photo-from-bahrain/58550/
http://972mag.com/war-trauma-kid-not-if-youre-asian/45238/
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: glens abu on November 19, 2012, 09:43:10 AM
Rally in support of the people of Gaza tomorrow night at 7.00pm City Hall Belfast,try and be there if you really care.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 19, 2012, 11:17:33 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8DbK1_CYAABJDZ.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: southdown on November 19, 2012, 12:00:06 PM
Obama, the Nobel Peace Prize Winner, seems very quiet.  Saw a report on the news last night of Israeli military trucks carrying what were clearly labelled cluster bombs.  If they use these they cannot claim to be carryng out "surgical" strikes.

The hypocrocy of this whole episode sickens my hole.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 19, 2012, 12:14:41 PM
Do you have any links to this news item showing these trucks carrying cluster bombs?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: southdown on November 19, 2012, 12:18:56 PM
Was on sky news last night at about 8, then went on to say how Israel and the US were the only major powers not to have signed the treaty banning the use of these.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 12:41:27 PM
Quote from: southdown on November 19, 2012, 12:00:06 PM
Obama, the Nobel Peace Prize Winner, seems very quiet.  Saw a report on the news last night of Israeli military trucks carrying what were clearly labelled cluster bombs.  If they use these they cannot claim to be carryng out "surgical" strikes.

The hypocrocy of this whole episode sickens my hole.

"Surgical strikes" is war porn . And BS.

It seems the Israelis have run out of soft targets so the likelihood of family wipeouts is higher than it was on Thursday.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 19, 2012, 12:44:16 PM
USA shields Israel
Russia shields Syria
China shields North Korea

Rogue superpowers shielding rogue regional powers.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: nrico2006 on November 19, 2012, 01:54:51 PM
Haven't followed this too much since it all started last week, but was it not started by Palestinians? 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 19, 2012, 01:59:04 PM
Excellent statement from Mark Durkan where he pulls no punches in seeking an end to the massacre unfolding in Gaza. We need more Irish politicians to take a leaf out of his book and speak out and tell the truth without fear of offending Israel or the US.

Durkan: End the slaughter in Gaza

SDLP Foyle MP Mark Durkan has written to the Foreign Secretary William Hague to register his deep concern at the deteriorating situation in Gaza and has called for urgent intervention by the international community to stop the humanitarian catastrophe which is currently unfolding.
Mon 19th November

Mr Durkan, a member of the All Party Group on Palestine (at Westminster) said: "I have written to the Foreign Secretary William Hague to register my deep concern at the deteriorating situation in Gaza and the inadequacy of the international response to Israel's violence against the Palestinian people.

"I would also stress that I have registered my full condemnation of any and all attacks on Israelis by Hamas or any other armed interest. Rocket attacks on Southern Israel have to be totally repudiated not only because of the death and destruction they bring to Israeli civilians but also because of the retaliatory violence which Israel feels it has the right to visit upon the afflicted people of Gaza.

"It is not good enough for governments – including the UK government – to hide behind superficial even-handedness or to call for a two-way ceasefire in terms that suggest that Israel is not to be held to any particular account for the scale, nature and humanitarian impact of the military action it has deployed.

"Israel has been able to execute recent attacks because they know that they are immune from meaningful international sanction or diplomatic rebuke.

"I have made it clear to the Foreign Secretary that if current policy approaches are rendering the UK and Europe devoid of influence or meaningful intervention, then they need to change.

"I would also stress the fact that now President Obama has secured a second term with a positive mandate he needs to be more active and ethical in using his stature in pursuit of peace, international justice and human rights in the Middle East.

"This should begin with a truly unequivocal condemnation of Israel's current excesses.

"His administration and European governments must also reflect strongly on their thwarting of the Palestinian application at the UN General Assembly later this month.

"There must be a redoubling of international efforts to secure a lasting settlement with a secure and independent state of Palestine alongside a secure and independent Israel.

"President Obama and the responsible international community would find more progress towards the 'two states' solution if they allowed more semblance of a 'two states' process."
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 19, 2012, 02:01:52 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 19, 2012, 01:54:51 PM
Haven't followed this too much since it all started last week, but was it not started by Palestinians?


You are 100% correct. The Palestinians started this by not moving off their homeland and hand it all over to Israel, as was promised to them thousands of years ago in some book.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 19, 2012, 02:18:34 PM
Was it started this week by rocket attacks from inside Gaza?  Were there any attacks from Gaza this week before Israel took out the Hamas leader?

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/photo.php?fbid=356053114491489&set=a.108531529243650.16425.100002604093592&type=1&theater
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 02:26:15 PM
You would wonder what has happened to Israeli civil society when Gaza is attacked before every election and 90% of Israeli Jews approve. 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: trileacman on November 19, 2012, 02:40:00 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 19, 2012, 02:18:34 PM
Was it started this week by rocket attacks from inside Gaza?  Were there any attacks from Gaza this week before Israel took out the Hamas leader?

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/photo.php?fbid=356053114491489&set=a.108531529243650.16425.100002604093592&type=1&theater

No Israel kicked it off by taking out the Hamas leader and no cower behind the excuse that they are replying to rockets from Gaza, an outright lie. Obama shows his weak side by towing the "blame Gaza" side in all this, all the other foreign affairs ministers around the world are absolute f**king cowards who won't call this for what it is.

William Hague especially is a spineless cnut.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 02:50:15 PM
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/dancing-israeli-students-chant-death-arabs-rally-backing-gaza-slaughter

Israeli students at Haifa University danced and chanted "Death to the Arabs" at a rally on Sunday to support Israel's bombardment of the Gaza Strip.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/idf-must-learn-syrians-how-slaughter-enemy-says-prominent-israeli-rabbi

This report, from the Israeli financial news website Globes, was translated by Dena Shunra:


Rabbi Yaakov Yosef: "The IDF must learn from the Syrians how to slaughter the enemy"

"The army has got to learn from the Syrians how to slaughter and crush the enemy" - that is how Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, son of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, "blessed" the IDF [sic] soldiers who may soon find themselves within the Gaza Strip, within the framework of a ground operation which may happen in practice.

According to the report on the Jewish Voice [hakol hayehudi] website, Rabbi Yosef gave a sermon today at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, and among other statements blessed the IDF soldiers by saying: "we warmly bless the soldiers and pray that they leave in peace and return in peace." Immediately thereafter he said that the IDF should learn from the Syrians "how to slaughter and how to crush the enemy."

According to the report, Rabbi Yosef said similar things in a sermon he gave in Jerusalem last weekend. Yosef was interrogated by the police in the past for alleged incitement, due to his statement of consent and approval for the Torat Hamelech book, which deals in the halacahic laws of war under the Torah.




http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/flatten-gaza-hiroshima-and-mow-population-israeli-public-figures-urge

Among the latest horrifying examples of incitement to mass murder by Israeli public figures, Gilad Sharon, the son of former prime minister and notorious war criminal Ariel Sharon, has called for the Israeli army to "flatten" Gaza as the US flattened the Japanese city of Hiroshima in 1945 with an atomic bomb.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 19, 2012, 03:06:23 PM
Breaking News:--- Israeli warplanes target Al-Shorouq building which houses many international and local media outlets, at least 1 person has been killed and 7 others injured. Tens of journalists are trapped inside the building as fire engulfs 1st and 2nd level of ( Entrance) the 12-story building

Ministry of Health confirm 98 killed, and over 750 injured. The other 1.6 million are living in a deep fear thinking will I be next?

Meanwhile, Israel keeps on bombing, and no one has the guts or the balls to stand up to them and roar.  "Stop This Massacre".

I hate to harp on about Obama, but has he not proven to be a gutless morally bankrupt man. He is seeing the same images of dead children as we are, and he hasn't the heart to say a single word. Cameron, and Hague are just as bad. Hague is a puppet for Israel because all he says when he speaks is that Hams is to blame. Thats right William, keep on telling the lie, and keep repeat the word Hamas 20 times into every interview.

What we are witnessing now is very unique in that Israel is showing the world how they are carrying out a massacre. They have let all the media who wants to go to Gaza enter without a word of a fuss. No one got in 4 years ago. The media there are showing us the death and destruction through the main stream, and those on social media have been live reporting the attacks 24/7 through facebook and twitter. For 6 days now Gaza has been trending in the top 5, and if anyone clicks on it, they will see video and images that no main stream would ever report.

In the face of all this, Israel is showing the world how evil it really is, and how much control they have over the west. Has any western leader spoke out and condemned them for killing babies and pregnant women?

The scary bit is yet to come, if they decide to launch a ground invasion. Not only will the Palestinians in Gaza resist in any way they can, but other nations will support them. Egypt, Turkey and Tunisia are serious players, and they will not allow a bloodbath in Gaza.

Right now the Israeli public is baying for blood, and giving full backing to a ground invasion. What does it say about them that they would love to see that much death and destruction?

The coming hours and days are very critical, but sadly, the killing will continue......
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on November 19, 2012, 03:46:21 PM
Obama could stop those cnuts overnight if he just gave the word.
But then his party might lose out on all the funds they get from US Jews.
Sickening the lot of it.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 19, 2012, 03:51:37 PM
Please watch this documentary it answers many questions. While we say how can this happen? This should go some way to explaining how the system works. Don't rush to judgement until you watch it. Thank you.
http://youtu.be/IQqWM0nRRPU
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 04:21:02 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 19, 2012, 12:48:55 AM
Gilad Sharon, nephew of murderous vegetable Ariel Sharon, is just as bloodthirsty as his uncle.

"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too."

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=292466

The Nazis razed the Warsaw ghetto in 1944. That a Jew proposes to do the same to Gaza in 2012 is beyond words.
And the Jerusalem Post is the Israeli equivalent of the Indo. How can they publish such hatred? 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 19, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Register your disgust with the Israeli ambassador at:

ambassador-sec@dublin.mfa.gov.il

It won't solve anything, but can't do any harm to bombard the tramps with emails.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on November 19, 2012, 04:32:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 19, 2012, 01:59:04 PM
Excellent statement from Mark Durkan where he pulls no punches in seeking an end to the massacre unfolding in Gaza. We need more Irish politicians to take a leaf out of his book and speak out and tell the truth without fear of offending Israel or the US.


"I would also stress that I have registered my full condemnation of any and all attacks on Israelis by Hamas or any other armed interest. Rocket attacks on Southern Israel have to be totally repudiated not only because of the death and destruction they bring to Israeli civilians but also because of the retaliatory violence which Israel feels it has the right to visit upon the afflicted people of Gaza.

"It is not good enough for governments – including the UK government – to hide behind superficial even-handedness or to call for a two-way ceasefire in terms that suggest that Israel is not to be held to any particular account for the scale, nature and humanitarian impact of the military action it has deployed.

"Israel has been able to execute recent attacks because they know that they are immune from meaningful international sanction or diplomatic rebuke.


GHD, Been following this with some interest over the weekend, and it's a very very bad situation. Like you, I applaud Mark Durkan's message. His entire message. Including, specifically, the above 3 sections.

The scale on which Israel has reacted at Palestine, and the number of civilian casualties as a result is frightening, as is the lack of intervention from the world stage.

The scale on which Hamas is being held completely blameless on this board and in the social media is also frightening.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 04:45:04 PM
Israel only has 60% support in the US this time around. I believe the % was much higher for the last Obama inauguration /Israeli election Gaza carnage.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: The Iceman on November 19, 2012, 05:01:59 PM
Puck,
I think it is hard to be as calculated as politicians in our response to this. I know I have been sickened to the stomach by it all - some of the images and news reports online are horrifying. Hamas have to answer for their part in this but I have to sympathize with their general cause and as a result of Israel's heavy-handedness.
What is equally shocking to me is the stance of American's who I would call friends on all of this. I am just really saddened by it all.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on November 19, 2012, 05:06:42 PM
It has indeed been a horrifying weekend for the violence. I don't know many people, American or not, who could argue otherwise.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on November 19, 2012, 05:33:51 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 19, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Register your disgust with the Israeli ambassador at:

ambassador-sec@dublin.mfa.gov.il

It won't solve anything, but can't do any harm to bombard the tramps with emails.

Good man yourself, thanks for this Nally.Mr. Ambassador, I have long been a supporter of your people and have defended your right to exist as a nation on many, many occasions, I have even, to my shame defended the indefensible by giving your people the benefit of the doubt, that I will do no more.

I am absolutely sickened and disgusted by what your people are doing to the people of Gaza, I live in the US and I am appalled at the lack of airtime this atrocity is getting, and the governments of the world should hang their heads in shame!

I know Mr. Ambassador that these words will be seen by blind eyes, I just thought I would send you this email to let you know that the people who pray for you and your people the world over are disgusted at your complete lack of humanity pertaining to the people of Gaza, how can you of all people not learn from the mistakes of the past?

I beg you to use your influence to see reason and be the difference, help these people keep their lives and stop the killings for the love of God!

Kevin Newbanks.




Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 05:35:40 PM
Quote from: stew on November 19, 2012, 05:33:51 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 19, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Register your disgust with the Israeli ambassador at:

ambassador-sec@dublin.mfa.gov.il

It won't solve anything, but can't do any harm to bombard the tramps with emails.

Good man yourself, thanks for this Nally.Mr. Ambassador, I have long been a supporter of your people and have defended your right to exist as a nation on many, many occasions, I have even, to my shame defended the indefensible by giving your people the benefit of the doubt, that I will do no more.

I am absolutely sickened and disgusted by what your people are doing to the people of Gaza, I live in the US and I am appalled at the lack of airtime this atrocity is getting, and the governments of the world should hang their heads in shame!

I know Mr. Ambassador that these words will be seen by blind eyes, I just thought I would send you this email to let you know that the people who pray for you and your people the world over are disgusted at your complete lack of humanity pertaining to the people of Gaza, how can you of all people not learn from the mistakes of the past?

I beg you to use your influence to see reason and be the difference, help these people keep their lives and stop the killings for the love of God!



Fair play Stew.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on November 19, 2012, 05:56:51 PM
The total of dead has reached 100 now, the Israelis have lost 3 people whilst 25 children living in Gaza have been killed as well as ten women.

Where the fcuk are the Governments of the world?


Bastards all.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 05:58:23 PM
Israel is such a mess


http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslME_62/6429_62.htm


ADL Expresses Support For Targeted Military Action In Gaza


New York, NY, November 14, 2012 ... The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) expressed support for the targeted military action taken today by Israel to protect the civilian population in southern Israel against the renewed barrage of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza.



Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:

Israel has shown tremendous restraint in the face of the unceasing rocket and mortar fire launched from Gaza.  This operation is directly targeting the leadership responsible for these attacks, as well as the warehouses and facilities housing their weapons.   No country in the world would stand by and tolerate such attacks on more than a million civilians.   



The international community has a clear obligation to condemn these attacks and to support the actions taken by Israel against Hamas and other terror organizations operating in Gaza as Israel carries out its basic duty to defend its civilian population.



The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2012, 05:59:31 PM
BTW no sign of BalldeBeaver today.

The embassy must have run out of verbiage.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Pangurban on November 19, 2012, 08:31:15 PM
The so called leaders of the Western World should hang their heads in shame, while their erstwhile leader Obama stands exposed as the biggest con-man ever to occupy the White House. Protest is futile, we can only hope for an early cease fire. and in the meantime boycott all Isreali products/ In condeming the Western leaders hypocrisy we should also note the very muted response from the rest of the world, including our own moral heroes in the Dail, while the silence from the Vatican has been deafening. We are living in a morally bankrupt world
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on November 19, 2012, 11:46:31 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 19, 2012, 02:40:00 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 19, 2012, 02:18:34 PM
Was it started this week by rocket attacks from inside Gaza?  Were there any attacks from Gaza this week before Israel took out the Hamas leader?

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/photo.php?fbid=356053114491489&set=a.108531529243650.16425.100002604093592&type=1&theater

No Israel kicked it off by taking out the Hamas leader and no cower behind the excuse that they are replying to rockets from Gaza, an outright lie. Obama shows his weak side by towing the "blame Gaza" side in all this, all the other foreign affairs ministers around the world are absolute f**king cowards who won't call this for what it is.

William Hague especially is a spineless cnut.

Was wondering about the order of events myself, I thought the attack on the Hamas leader preceded the rockets from Gaza, but the reporting on this issue is generally fairly bad.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 20, 2012, 12:29:01 AM
Quote from: tyssam5 on November 19, 2012, 11:46:31 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 19, 2012, 02:40:00 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 19, 2012, 02:18:34 PM
Was it started this week by rocket attacks from inside Gaza?  Were there any attacks from Gaza this week before Israel took out the Hamas leader?

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/photo.php?fbid=356053114491489&set=a.108531529243650.16425.100002604093592&type=1&theater

No Israel kicked it off by taking out the Hamas leader and no cower behind the excuse that they are replying to rockets from Gaza, an outright lie. Obama shows his weak side by towing the "blame Gaza" side in all this, all the other foreign affairs ministers around the world are absolute f**king cowards who won't call this for what it is.

William Hague especially is a spineless cnut.

Was wondering about the order of events myself, I thought the attack on the Hamas leader preceded the rockets from Gaza, but the reporting on this issue is generally fairly bad.
Excuse me for not getting the names of the people. First person shot was a mentally challenged man who walked to close to the wall Israel built around Gaza. The second incident Israel killed a 13 year old playing football out side his house. While at the funeral of the thirteen year old Israel fired a missile at the mourners seriously injuring five teenagers and killing two of the little boys cousins. This is the truth how it started Israel was looking for blood. I will get the victims names for you soon. I am sick to my stomach a bout the whole thing. Also like to add that the media have blood in there hands. They have a moral duty to let people know the truth and reading some of the comments here it appears there deliberate distortion of the truth have left a lot of people none the wiser.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2012, 09:09:08 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-s-96-dead-include-farmers-water-sellers-and-the-girl-next-door.premium-1.479110/gaza-s-96-dead-include-farmers-water-sellers-and-the-girl-next-door.premium-1.479110

On Sunday afternoon the IAF fired two missiles on a vehicle distributing purified water to the Beit Lahia area, killing the driver, Suhail Ashur Mohammed Hamada, 42, and his 10-year-old son.

An estimated 95 percent of the water in Gaza is not fit to drink, forcing residents to buy purified water or receive it from their municipality.

Another 10-year-old boy was killed along with his father later Sunday, while they were trying to fix a pipe on the roof of their home in Jabalya. Missile or bomb fragments often cause damage to pipes and water heaters, and residents risk their lives to go up on their roofs in an effort to fix them. At 10 P.M. Jalal Nasser, 42, and his 10-year-old son Hussein were killed by an Israeli missile.

•   Later that night, a 31-year-old man whom relatives described as mentally retarded was killed in an air strike while standing near his home in Saja'iyya.•   
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Declan on November 20, 2012, 09:10:31 AM
Killing Hope: Why Israel Targets Sports in Gaza
by Dave Zirin
Let's start with a fact. On November 16, the Israeli Air Force bombed the 10,000-seat Palestine Stadium "into ruins." The stadium also headquartered the center for youth sports programs throughout the Gaza Strip. This is the second time Israel has flattened the facility. The first was in 2006 and the people of Gaza have spent the last six years rebuilding the fields, stands, and offices to keep the national soccer team as well as club sports alive in the region.

I'm sure the reaction to this fact will depend on what side people take in the current conflict. For the Israeli government and their supporters, they promised "collective punishment" following the Hamas rockets fired over the border and they are delivering "collective punishment." Matan Vilnai, deputy defense minister of Israel has in the past threatened a "holocaust" and Gilad Sharon, son of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, called for Gaza to be the new "Hiroshima." In this context, a sports facility must seem like little more than target practice.

For those attending daily demonstrations against the carnage, this news of a stadium's destruction must also be seen as an irrelevancy. After all according to The Wall Street Journal, 90 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, have been killed in Gaza. 225 children are among the more than 700 injured and these numbers are climbing. Israeli ground troops are massing at the border and President Obama can only bring himself to defend Israel without criticism. There is only so much concern for a stadium people can be expected to muster.

I think however that we should all take a moment to ask the question, "Why?" Why has the Palestinian sports infrastructure, not to mention Palestinian athletes, always been a target of the Israeli military? Why has the Palestinian domestic soccer league only completed seven seasons since its founding in 1977? Why are players commonly subjected to harassment and violence, not to mention curfews, checkpoints, and all sorts of legal restrictions on their movement? Why were national team players Ayman Alkurd, Shadi Sbakhe and Wajeh Moshate killed by the Israeli Defense Forces during the 2009 military campaign? Why did imprisoned national team player Mahmoud Sarsak require a hunger strike, the international solidarity campaign of Amnesty International, and a formal protest from both FIFA and the 50,000-player soccer union FIFpro to just to win his freedom after three years behind bars?

The answer is simple. Sports is more than loved in Gaza (and it is loved.) It's an expression of humanity for those living under occupation. It's not just soccer and it's not just the boys. Everyone plays, with handball, volleyball, and basketball joining soccer as the most popular choices. To have several thousand people gather to watch a girls sporting event is a way of life. It's a community event designed not only to cheer those on the field, but cheer those in the stands. As one Palestinian man from Gaza said to me, "[Sports] is our time to forget where we are and remember who we are."

Attacking the athletic infrastructure is about attacking the idea that joy, normalcy, or a universally recognizable humanity could ever be a part of life for a Palestinian child. This is a critical for Israel both internationally and at home. The only way the Israeli government and its allies can continue to act with such brazen disregard for civilian life is if they convince the world that their adversaries collectively are less than human. The subway ads calling Muslims "savages", the Islamophobic cartoons and videos that are held up as examples of free speech, are all part of a quilt that says some deaths are not to be mourned.

At home, attacking sports is about nothing less than killing hope. Israel's total war, underwritten by the United States, is a war not only on Hamas or military installations but on the idea that life can ever be so carefree in Gaza as to involve play. The objective instead is to hear these words of a young girl outside Al Shifa Hospital on November 18th who said, "To the world and people: Why should we be killed and why shouldn't we have a normal childhood? What did we do to face all this?"

If you play, you can dream. If you dream, you are imagining a better world.  As the great Olympian Wilma Rudolph said, "Never underestimate the power of dreams and the influence of the human spirit. The potential for greatness lives within each of us." Nothing marks the nihilism of Israel's project quite like this fact: they don't want the people of Gaza to dream. In the eyes of Benjamin Netanyahu, they are only worthy of nightmares.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Aerlik on November 20, 2012, 10:34:05 AM
Hmmm, interesting...

during this evening's Channel 9 News (West Aus) the newsreader read out how 12 people had been "murdered" (sic) in an attack on the house on Gaza.  This preceded the cut to the commercials.  So, I sat and waited for the story to air...not a word of it.    Not a single fekkin word of it.  Instead the usual pro-Zionist shite.  Fcuk it's maddening. 

The commercial media in this  country are a disgrace.  Only ABC and SBS have in-depth coverage for the zionist atrocities and terrorism.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2012, 12:49:21 PM
http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/133-133/14621-elites-will-make-gazans-of-us-all
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 20, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
"There are no innocents in Gaza. Don't let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives. At the tiniest concern for your lives, mow them down! There are no righteous men [in Gaza], turn it into rubble! Paint it red!"
–       Michael Ben-Ari, Israeli Member of Parliament


"The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for 40 years. We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure, including roads and water."
–      Eli Yishai, Deputy Prime Minister of Israel


"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too. To prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren't hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences."
–      Gilad Sharon, son of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon



Has Inda opened his mouth about this at all yet?
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: southdown on November 20, 2012, 01:34:14 PM
Correct me if am wrong, but if Palestine were able to get full UN status (that is a bif if) could Israel then be held accountable by the International Criminal Court for their actions?

Is full UN membership a realistic goal, or will the US do all in their powers to veto this. 
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
Quote from: southdown on November 20, 2012, 01:34:14 PM
Correct me if am wrong, but if Palestine were able to get full UN status (that is a bif if) could Israel then be held accountable by the International Criminal Court for their actions?

Is full UN membership a realistic goal, or will the US do all in their powers to veto this.

Yep, as a state, Palestine can take Israel to court and by the time they are finished with them, there wouldn't be much left. As Seafoid said earlier, it would be the end of the Zionist dream and plan.

So, in light of that, never will the US allow that to happen as they hold a veto at the UN. That is the sham of the UN as it's a democracy of one.

The very fact that Obama hasn't been able to say boo so far on the babies getting murdered, and instead justifies their death in a "Israel has the right to defend itself" statement. Pathetic excuse for a human and as a father of 2 young girls, it shows you how much hold Israel have over the US. The US is not allowed to comment and must do as it's told by a lunatic state in the Middle East. It is extremely sad as it makes a complete mockery of the independence of the US.

Towards the US, Israel behaves like a school bully. Every one of his victims hand over their full support and dinner money. Until they grow up and grow a pair of balls, the school bully will reign.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: ballinaman on November 20, 2012, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 19, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Register your disgust with the Israeli ambassador at:

ambassador-sec@dublin.mfa.gov.il

It won't solve anything, but can't do any harm to bombard the tramps with emails.
Dropped him a line there to let them know my thoughts.
Shame on Israel.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 02:55:47 PM
In the past hour, Israel have killed another 12 Palestinians. 4 are children

2 children were killed instantly as a "Surgical Strike" hit them and their 15 friends as they were playing. Cars arriving at the hospital filled with badly injured kids.

Today is international day for children. Israel knows how best to mark such a special day
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2012, 03:12:48 PM
Quote from: southdown on November 20, 2012, 01:34:14 PM
Correct me if am wrong, but if Palestine were able to get full UN status (that is a bif if) could Israel then be held accountable by the International Criminal Court for their actions?

Is full UN membership a realistic goal, or will the US do all in their powers to veto this.

The Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court recently advised that there was no reasonable basis to proceed with any investigation of war crimes or crimes against humanity unless the relevant bodies at the United Nations or the ICC Assembly of States Parties first make a legal determination as to whether or not the victim qualifies as a State. Ambassador Christian Wenaweser, president of the ICC Assembly of State Parties, told Joe Lauria of the WSJ that a Palestinian UN observer state could join the ICC and ask the court to investigate any alleged war crimes and other charges against Israel committed on Palestinian territory after July 2002, including Israel's 2008-09 assault on the Gaza Strip.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904060604576575002527221120.html

The US will not tolerate full UN membership but observer status is not subject to a veto at the security council and
the palestinians are looking at a win in a free vote


According to a Palestinian official, Middle East Quartet envoy Tony Blair and EU foreign affairs chief Lady Ashton were in Ramallah yesterday to renew efforts to persuade the Palestinian leadership to delay its drive to get the United Nations general assembly to recognise a Palestinian state.   

b**tards

If Israel is exposed to the might of international justice Zionism is toast.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 03:31:31 PM
Thousands of Palestinians are fleeing their homes after Israel dropped leaflets over 300,000 homes.
The leaflets also showed a map and had designated roads for them to travel on.

Tomorrow, you will hear an Israeli spokesperson on the airwaves justifying the slaughter of innocents by telling us that they are a very humane people. They sent them a message, and we even drew a map for them to show them where to go. If they are on the BBC, do not expect an interviewer to challenge them.

George Orwell was right. "War is peace"

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: theskull1 on November 20, 2012, 03:42:03 PM
Nothing exposes the corruption of political leaders like this issue. Protecting the claim jumping bully at every turn. Its hard to fathom the level of influence zionists have on so many western powers from politics, media all the way to finance. The other side of the arguement here in the 'free world' never has a chance just like the Palestinians themselves. It really is an ugly world out there
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 20, 2012, 03:49:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 03:31:31 PM
Thousands of Palestinians are fleeing their homes after Israel dropped leaflets over 300,000 homes.
The leaflets also showed a map and had designated roads for them to travel on.

Tomorrow, you will hear an Israeli spokesperson on the airwaves justifying the slaughter of innocents by telling us that they are a very humane people. They sent them a message, and we even drew a map for them to show them where to go. If they are on the BBC, do not expect an interviewer to challenge them.

George Orwell was right. "War is peace"

What's your reading of the Egyptians claiming that a truce is imminent, GHD?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 04:11:42 PM
It's looking good at this stage Nally. Various well connected sources are confirming a ceasefire from midnight.

However, I still don't trust Israel over the next few hours.

Hamas had laid down a condition for a ceasefire in that the siege had to be lifted.

Apparently, while not a complete lifting is to be announced, a substantial shift is on the cards.

The sad part is, Hilary Clinton is scheduled to appear later to announce the deal. WTF?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 20, 2012, 04:18:09 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 04:11:42 PM
It's looking good at this stage Nally. Various well connected sources are confirming a ceasefire from midnight.

However, I still don't trust Israel over the next few hours.

Hamas had laid down a condition for a ceasefire in that the siege had to be lifted.

Apparently, while not a complete lifting is to be announced, a substantial shift is on the cards.

The sad part is, Hilary Clinton is scheduled to appear later to announce the deal. WTF?

As you say, they can't be trusted. Even if they do agree to a truce, how many more pounds of flesh will they needlessly claim before midnight?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2012, 04:34:10 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 20, 2012, 04:18:09 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 04:11:42 PM
It's looking good at this stage Nally. Various well connected sources are confirming a ceasefire from midnight.

However, I still don't trust Israel over the next few hours.

Hamas had laid down a condition for a ceasefire in that the siege had to be lifted.

Apparently, while not a complete lifting is to be announced, a substantial shift is on the cards.

The sad part is, Hilary Clinton is scheduled to appear later to announce the deal. WTF?

As you say, they can't be trusted. Even if they do agree to a truce, how many more pounds of flesh will they needlessly claim before midnight?
They might send the Phalange in to mop up. I think they did that before somewhere. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 05:26:26 PM
Mark Regev made good on his promise as 2 camera men from Al Aqsa TV were killed in the past 30 minutes.

22 killed today so far.

Now watch this interview with Regev yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU0MLpX2iGw
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2012, 05:55:13 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 05:26:26 PM
Mark Regev made good on his promise as 2 camera men from Al Aqsa TV were killed in the past 30 minutes.

22 killed today so far.

Now watch this interview with Regev yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU0MLpX2iGw
Regev is such a slimeball.


He is the Grand Wizard of hasbara.
Title: Re: Israel escalate attacks on Gaza, over 70 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on November 20, 2012, 06:11:00 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
Quote from: southdown on November 20, 2012, 01:34:14 PM
Correct me if am wrong, but if Palestine were able to get full UN status (that is a bif if) could Israel then be held accountable by the International Criminal Court for their actions?

Is full UN membership a realistic goal, or will the US do all in their powers to veto this.

Yep, as a state, Palestine can take Israel to court and by the time they are finished with them, there wouldn't be much left. As Seafoid said earlier, it would be the end of the Zionist dream and plan.

So, in light of that, never will the US allow that to happen as they hold a veto at the UN. That is the sham of the UN as it's a democracy of one.

The very fact that Obama hasn't been able to say boo so far on the babies getting murdered, and instead justifies their death in a "Israel has the right to defend itself" statement. Pathetic excuse for a human and as a father of 2 young girls, it shows you how much hold Israel have over the US. The US is not allowed to comment and must do as it's told by a lunatic state in the Middle East. It is extremely sad as it makes a complete mockery of the independence of the US.

Towards the US, Israel behaves like a school bully. Every one of his victims hand over their full support and dinner money. Until they grow up and grow a pair of balls, the school bully will reign.

Tell me again why so many of you wanted Obama to win again????

Never mind, Romney would have been just as bad if not worse on this issue, I am beside myself for not having the balls nor intellect to
see through the propaganda and I am ashamed of myself for backing the pro Israeli brigade for so long!
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 06:29:41 PM
The bastards are shelling the shit out of Gaza right now. 50 explosions in the past 45 minutes and many injures and some further deaths been reported. I hope all those leaders and politicians are proud of themselves.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 06:54:31 PM
According to all the people tweeting out of Gaza right now reporting huge explosions going off everywhere. They are under heavy attack in the area's they dropped the leaflets on

North to the south, east to the west, they are getting a full on attack.

Navy ships are shelling all along the coast.

14 killed in the past 3 hours

This is mental. Mental
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Saffrongael on November 20, 2012, 07:09:45 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/11/20/hamas-kills-suspected-col_n_2165236.html

Hamas kills six suspected Israel collaborators

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.
Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, "Spy! Spy!"
The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, claimed responsibility in a large handwritten note attached to a nearby electricity pole. Hamas said the six were killed because they gave Israel information about fighters and rocket launching sites.
The killing came on the seventh day of an Israeli military offensive that has killed more than 120 Palestinians, both militants and civilians. Israel has launched hundreds of airstrikes, targeting rocket launching sites, weapons caches and homes of Hamas activists, as Palestinians fired hundreds of rockets at Israel.
Israel relies on a network of local informers to identify its targets in Gaza.
The six were killed on Tuesday afternoon in Gaza City's Sheik Radwan neighborhood.
Witnesses said a van stopped in the intersection, and four masked men pushed the six suspected informers out of the vehicle. Salim Mahmoud, 18, said the gunmen ordered the six to lie face down in the street and then shot them dead. Another witness, 13-year-old Mokhmen al-Gazhali, said the informers were killed one by one, as he mimicked the sound of gunfire.
They said only a few people were in the street at first – most Gazans have been staying indoors because of the Israeli airstrikes – but the crowd quickly grew after the killings. Eventually several hundred men pushed and shoved to get a close look at the bodies, lying in a jumble on the ground. One man spit at the corpses, another kicked the head of one of the dead men.
"They should have been killed in a more brutal fashion so others don't even think about working with the occupation (Israel)," said one of the bystanders, 24-year-old Ashraf Maher.
One body was then tied by a cable to the back of a motorcycle and dragged through the streets. A number of gunmen on motorcycles rode along as the body was pulled past a house of mourning for victims of an Israeli airstrike.
There is broad consensus among Palestinians that informers for Israel deserve harsh punishment, and it is rare to hear someone speak out against killings of alleged collaborators. Such public killings been carried out in the West Bank and Gaza since the first uprising against Israeli occupation in the late 1980s.
In Israel's last major Gaza offensive four years ago, 17 suspected collaborators who fled after their prisons were hit in airstrikes were later shot dead in extra-judicial killings.
During the current offensive, Tuesday's killings brought to eight the number of suspected informers being shot dead in public. On Friday, the body of one alleged informer was found in a garbage bin, and another was shot dead in the street. Hamas claimed responsibility for both killings.
Since seizing Gaza in 2007, Hamas has executed four informers by firing squad, and about a dozen more are on death row in Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on November 20, 2012, 07:59:21 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/os-ed-eugene-robinson-112012-20121119,0,6832845.column (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/os-ed-eugene-robinson-112012-20121119,0,6832845.column)

The drama unfolding in Gaza seems numbingly familiar. This time, however, there's a big and potentially tragic difference: Not even the actors — Palestinians and Israelis — can possibly know how it will turn out.

How many times must they rehash this tired plot? Resentments build, tensions rise. A disputed border incident provides a spark. Israel reacts with sudden force. Palestinians fire rockets at civilian targets. Israel launches reprisal attacks — first justified, then disproportionate. Anguished women wail at the funerals of dead children. Men swear oaths of vengeance, solemn vows that honor and self-respect will never allow them to break.

The usual ending is a cease-fire and a return to the status quo. But the whole Mideast region is undergoing a process of tumultuous change, and there is no guarantee that the stasis considered "normal" in the occupied territories will ever return.

As President Obama noted, Israel has the absolute right to defend itself against rocket attacks whose sole purpose is to terrorize and kill civilians. Israel does not have a right, in my view, to keep Gaza's 2 million residents under permanent blockade as punishment for choosing officials of Hamas, the Islamist group, as their leadership.

Hamas, of course, has no right to launch rockets at Israel knowing they may fall on schools, hospitals and playgrounds. But Israel has no right to use this flare-up as an excuse for what some commentators have called "mowing the grass" — assassinating Palestinian leaders who have proved particularly effective, destroying infrastructure for the sake of destruction, chalking up civilian casualties in Gaza as an unfortunate side effect.

Israel has the right to exist in peace. Palestinians have the right to an independent state. Each side insists on having its rights fully acknowledged before the other side's rights are even considered.

Enough with rights. Someone has to start dealing with new and unfamiliar realities.

Henry Kissinger's famous observation about Israel's security was that there could be no war without Egypt, no peace without Syria. For more than three decades, Israel has had a peace treaty with Egypt, the Arab world's most populous state, and a strictly observed truce with Syria across the Golan Heights. But then came the Arab Spring.

Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak is gone, replaced by an elected government whose leaders are members of the once-banned Muslim Brotherhood — an organization that has nurtured and supported Hamas. The new government has pledged to honor the treaty, but it is likely to take the plight of the Palestinians much more seriously than did Mubarak, who saw them not as brothers and sisters but as pawns.

Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, meanwhile, is fighting for his regime's survival in a civil war. It is quite possible that the country will fracture — and with it, perhaps, the once-sturdy Golan truce.

Throughout the Arab world, religious parties are demanding — and attaining — new power and influence. There are many reasons for this Islamic ascendance, most of which have nothing to do with Israel. But is the continued Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza a contributing factor? Yes, without a doubt, if only because it represents Arab humiliation and provides a focal point for a host of grievances.

Another factor to take into account is the influence Iran now has in Syria and Gaza. One of Israel's aims in the current bombing campaign may be to degrade Iran's ability to retaliate — with rockets fired from Gaza — in case of an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities. But does anyone really think the regime in Tehran is viewing these events with anything other than smug satisfaction? Perceived Israeli excesses in Gaza — more than 90 people have been killed so far — can only weaken international support for an attack on the nuclear sites.

There are far too many variables for anyone to be confident of what happens next. Perhaps Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh have an exquisite sense of how far they can push before things spin out of control. I hope so.

Both leaders say they want a cease-fire. Once the fighting stops, there must be renewed negotiations toward the obvious two-state solution. The Obama administration should use its power and influence to bring Israelis and Palestinians to the table, kicking and screaming if necessary.

Given the situation, a peace process is likely to be long, bitter and frustrating. But not undertaking one, as everyone should now realize, is much worse.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2012, 08:19:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 20, 2012, 06:54:31 PM
According to all the people tweeting out of Gaza right now reporting huge explosions going off everywhere. They are under heavy attack in the area's they dropped the leaflets on

North to the south, east to the west, they are getting a full on attack.

Navy ships are shelling all along the coast.

14 killed in the past 3 hours

This is mental. Mental
there won't be a ceasefire at midnight.
Netanyahu wants to get reelected.

Zionism is insane. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: haveaharp on November 20, 2012, 08:25:03 PM
While governments everywhere do nothing, turn a blind eye etc. What about the arab league ?

Seafoid and give her dixie, i admire your passion on the subject, and you both seem to be under the impression (especially seafoid) that something has to change "israel is finished" etc. What do you think is likely to happen ? (Not what do you want to happen)

Disappointed in Obama but should not have expected anything other than the "israel has the right to defend itself" line.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: glens abu on November 20, 2012, 08:54:00 PM
Good turnout at rally in Belfast tonight and mass rally and march planned for Sat so everyone who can make it please try your best to be there and bring someone with you.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 20, 2012, 09:44:27 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on November 20, 2012, 08:25:03 PM
While governments everywhere do nothing, turn a blind eye etc. What about the arab league ?

Seafoid and give her dixie, i admire your passion on the subject, and you both seem to be under the impression (especially seafoid) that something has to change "israel is finished" etc. What do you think is likely to happen ? (Not what do you want to happen)

Disappointed in Obama but should not have expected anything other than the "israel has the right to defend itself" line.

I posted a link to a documentary a couple of pages back. This should answers most of anyones questions. Barack is part of the Israeli mafia that controls American politics. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2012, 10:13:23 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on November 20, 2012, 08:25:03 PM
While governments everywhere do nothing, turn a blind eye etc. What about the arab league ?

Seafoid and give her dixie, i admire your passion on the subject, and you both seem to be under the impression (especially seafoid) that something has to change "israel is finished" etc. What do you think is likely to happen ? (Not what do you want to happen)

Disappointed in Obama but should not have expected anything other than the "israel has the right to defend itself" line.

I think Israel has thrived because of a few factors

- European holocaust guilt
- blind support from the Jewish diaspora
- the Lobby in the States
- Arab weakness
- American Empire
- sympathy from the ordinary people of the West, the romance of it, Exodus, the miracle of making the desert bloom, whatever
-  the peace process

As long as the peace process went on any criticism of Israel could be held at bay. It was a country say a bit like Northern Ireland with a political problem but it was in a process and working for peace and would get there.  Decent people gave Israel the benefit of the doubt in good faith.

Now it is clear the peace process was a joke, an excuse for a land grab .
http://www.aljazeera.com/palestinepapers/

There won't be a Palestinian state. There will instead be apartheid. The Europeans will pick up the tab. Long term Israel will follow Moshe Dayan's advice on how to manage the Palestinians "Treat them like dogs- those who want to can leave". By 2018 there will be over 1 million Jewish settlers in the West Bank. That is just taking the piss.


I think this is a game changer.  Walt and Mearsheimer and Jimmy Carter both wrote important books a few years ago about where Israel was headed and they were slated for antisemitism but they have been proved right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Not_Apartheid


The ADL is a Jewish charity that was set up to fight racism and bigotry in the US in the 1920s. Now it actively supports Israeli apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza. Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury.

At the moment anyone who is critical of Israel is labeled an antisemite but this insult becomes less and less effective the more Israel's long term strategy is revealed.

What is likely to happen?

First of all Israel will lose support in Europe. Then it is very hard to see younger American Jews who mostly tend towards the Democrats to support an openly racist policy that says that Jews are superior to Palestinians. So I think there will be a widening gap between Israeli Jews and American Jews.   A lot of american Jews don't want to admit that Israel does things like fire white phosphorous on civilians or demolish the homes of non Jews. "Jews wouldn't do that" . But unfortunately they do in Israel. 

The cost of the Jewish state now is the abandonment of Jewish ethics. So Israel can take a Machiavellian stance and say "it is not as bad as Somalia" but what is the point of the Jewish state then?  You adopt nihilism and you bless it. For what ?

Looking at the pillars of support

-I think the Germans have paid enough for the holocaust and younger Germans especially will be horrified by apartheid   
-The Jewish diaspora will slowly turn away
-The lobby is a wedge run by a minority- maybe this will hold out longest
-The Arabs are moving to a situation where their governments reflect the thinking of the people and nobody Arab buys Israeli PR.
-The Americans have lost their sole superpower status and China doesn't care about WW2 or owe anything to Israel
-Ordinary people will be turned away by racism and bigotry and apartheid
-There is no peace process

Israeli society will become more extremist and there will be more wars but ultimately Israel won't be able to convince the rest of the world to put up with it.

It is a total mess. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2012, 10:41:01 PM
Netanyahu is such a tr**p.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speeches+by+Israeli+leaders/2012/PM_Netanyahu_meeting_UNSG_Ban_Ki-Moon_20-Nov-2012.htm


"The moment we draw symmetry between the victims of terror and the unintended casualties that result from legitimate military action against the terrorists, the minute that false symmetry is drawn, the terrorists win."

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 20, 2012, 11:12:35 PM
Sick bastards.

@IDFSpokesperson: Warning to reporters in Gaza: Stay away from Hamas operatives & facilities. Hamas, a terrorist group, will use you as human shields.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 20, 2012, 11:21:04 PM
If we got the 2 state solution and  both sides did not attack each other (No rockets and no more settlements), would either state be viable? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 08:43:04 AM
There is a whole  system behind what Israel is doing

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/american-jews-one-way-ticket-to-the-front-line.premium-1.479238#

It is not at all clear that Lakein, who is not even registered yet as a reservist, will even be needed for service. But this does not seem to faze him. Tomorrow, he says, after a night in Jerusalem at the home of friends, he will go to the induction center, and ask to be allowed to head to the front lines of the offensive. "The Lubavitch rebbe said that 'whoever serves in the IDF gets his place reserved in the world to come.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubavitcher
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 10:31:16 AM
A bus has been hit in Tel Aviv, with 10 people injured. This will be a slight game changer me thinks.....

Retaliation will be swift and brutal in Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: haveaharp on November 21, 2012, 10:31:25 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 10:58:12 AM
This is a link to my web site where there are 3 live stream channels set up:

http://gazatvnews.com/gaza-live-stream/

1 is an English guy, Harry Fear reporting live. There is a live stream of the Gaza skyline
where you can hear the various aircraft roaming the skies bombing Gaza. The 3rd is
the Al Jazeera channel.

This is my facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/GazaTVNews

Twitter feed: https://twitter.com/GazaTVNews

I have 4 different people in Gaza as admins, and they are reporting live as attacks take place.

The power of social media in the past week has been huge as the truth is out 30 minutes before the main stream get hold of the story. There are some heroes in Gaza who have been working around the clock blogging and tweeting about the reality of this current massacre, and I have been retweeting and posting their links all week. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 21, 2012, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

I would say where the anger is directed at on this thread is in direct proportion to the events as they have unfolded. 5 Israelis killed compared to over 140 Palestinians, over 20% of whom were children? What do you expect, a wishy-washy discussion where we pretend both sides are just as bad as each other?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

No Israeli nationals were dragged around by motorbikes. Get your facts right.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 21, 2012, 11:46:43 AM
A new low.  Sympathy for the Gaza crisis is hard to maintain when you see that.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ulick on November 21, 2012, 12:07:54 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

For all the Israeli technology, the targeted bombings such as the one that killed Ahmed al-Jabari could not happen without collaborators and informers on the ground pointing out the targets. Lowest of the low. Harrowing to see their bodies dragged through the streets but IMO understandable in a desperate situation when you want others to think twice before taking the shekel. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 21, 2012, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

I would say where the anger is directed at on this thread is in direct proportion to the events as they have unfolded. 5 Israelis killed compared to over 140 Palestinians, over 20% of whom were children? What do you expect, a wishy-washy discussion where we pretend both sides are just as bad as each other?

Both sides are obviously as bad as each other, murder is murder.  From the news reports I have seen, it seems that all this has started up again due to rockets being launched from Gaza into Israel. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

No Israeli nationals were dragged around by motorbikes. Get your facts right.

Really sorry there.  Does it make any difference what their nationality is?  They were brutally murdered due to a perceived link to Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 21, 2012, 12:35:39 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 21, 2012, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

I would say where the anger is directed at on this thread is in direct proportion to the events as they have unfolded. 5 Israelis killed compared to over 140 Palestinians, over 20% of whom were children? What do you expect, a wishy-washy discussion where we pretend both sides are just as bad as each other?

Both sides are obviously as bad as each other, murder is murder. From the news reports I have seen, it seems that all this has started up again due to rockets being launched from Gaza into Israel.

As the old saying goes, "never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level then beat you with experience."

So I think I'll just leave you to it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: glens abu on November 21, 2012, 12:36:21 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

No Israeli nationals were dragged around by motorbikes. Get your facts right.

Really sorry there.  Does it make any difference what their nationality is?  They were brutally murdered due to a perceived link to Israel.

Ok then so the allies during the war were as bad as the Germans[Houlacust and all]  because the French shot people who collaborated with the Germans, >:(load of balls
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 12:38:09 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 21, 2012, 11:46:43 AM
A new low.  Sympathy for the Gaza crisis is hard to maintain when you see that.

10% of the kids in Gaza are severely malnourished. The Strip will be unfit for human habitation by 2020. 95% of the water is undrinkable .

Gaza has been systematically de developed by Israel

http://www.palestine-studies.org/files/pdf/jps/1069.pdf
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 01:08:59 PM
Quote from: glens abu on November 21, 2012, 12:36:21 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

No Israeli nationals were dragged around by motorbikes. Get your facts right.

Really sorry there.  Does it make any difference what their nationality is?  They were brutally murdered due to a perceived link to Israel.

Ok then so the allies during the war were as bad as the Germans[Houlacust and all]  because the French shot people who collaborated with the Germans, >:(load of balls

Those pictures of the men dragging a body around by motorbike are as harrowing as I am likely to see.  How can their actions be seen any differently than the other sides? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 01:13:00 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 21, 2012, 12:35:39 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 21, 2012, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

I would say where the anger is directed at on this thread is in direct proportion to the events as they have unfolded. 5 Israelis killed compared to over 140 Palestinians, over 20% of whom were children? What do you expect, a wishy-washy discussion where we pretend both sides are just as bad as each other?

Both sides are obviously as bad as each other, murder is murder. From the news reports I have seen, it seems that all this has started up again due to rockets being launched from Gaza into Israel.

As the old saying goes, "never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level then beat you with experience."

So I think I'll just leave you to it.

Good lad.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 21, 2012, 01:14:30 PM
I am not arguing that things are sh*t in Gaza.  I was just commenting on the dragging of the body through the street behind a motorbike.  I fear now for the families of these collaborators.

It is hard to hear about Democracy in this conflict.  The lesson learned is that we should strive for democracy as long as it is the democracy we think is right.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: glens abu on November 21, 2012, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 01:08:59 PM
Quote from: glens abu on November 21, 2012, 12:36:21 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

No Israeli nationals were dragged around by motorbikes. Get your facts right.

Really sorry there.  Does it make any difference what their nationality is?  They were brutally murdered due to a perceived link to Israel.

Ok then so the allies during the war were as bad as the Germans[Houlacust and all]  because the French shot people who collaborated with the Germans, >:(load of balls

Those pictures of the men dragging a body around by motorbike are as harrowing as I am likely to see.  How can their actions be seen any differently than the other sides?

Well I just wish I was able to post the photos of the many mutilated children that I have seen from Gaza in the past week,children who did nothing and not part of the war unlike the collaborators who were shot.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 01:38:03 PM
The use of collaborators is one of the many disturbing aspects of Israeli apartheid. Collaborators are often blackmailed into working for Israel or given special privileges and have a very high mortality rate . 

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/20080911_Muhammad_Khawajah_age_12_detained_by_IDF.asp

Testimony: 12-year-old beaten and imprisoned with adults, Sept. '08
Muhammad Khawajah, 12

I live with my family in Ni'lin. We live on the ground floor of the house, my two uncles and their families live on the first floor, and my grandmother lives on the second floor. Last Thursday [11 September], around 3:00 A.M., I woke up from my mother's shouts. She was shouting, "Get up! Get up! The army is here!" My father wasn't home that night. I got up and went out with her to the inner courtyard of the house. There were about 12 soldiers there, and their faces were painted black. One soldier wore a black hat that covered his face. He sat on the stairs outside the house and didn't take part. I think he was a collaborator who led them to houses. The soldiers were on the first floor. I heard them tell my Uncle Sami to direct them to our floor. One of the soldiers asked, "Where is Muhammad?", and I realized he was asking about me. The soldier told my uncle to call me, so he did. I started walking towards them. Two soldiers grabbed me and took me outside. I realized they wanted to arrest me. I was afraid, and began to cry, and called my uncle to come with me.
The soldiers cuffed my hands tight with plastic handcuffs, which hurt a lot. A soldier grabbed me by the shirt from behind and started walking and pushing me forward. The shirt was up against my neck and I couldn't breathe properly. I tried to free myself, and he punched me in the back and pulled the shirt tighter, choking me even more. Another soldier also punched me and pulled my hair as we walked. I cried and called out for my uncle and my father. The soldiers hit me and said, "Quiet! Quiet!" They led me to an alleyway between the houses, where there are cactuses. We were walking by some cactuses and then one of the soldiers pushed me into them. The thorns pricked me in the hands and legs. The soldiers kept on pushing me forward and hitting me along the way.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/13/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast

From a plastic chair on his front porch Samir looked out over a garden neatly planted with rose bushes. In this house Samir, his wife, and five of their children are living a new life, surrounded by Jewish Israeli neighbours and, like them, in the firing line of the makeshift Palestinian rockets that target the Israeli town of Sderot. Last year one of these Qassam rockets fired only a couple of miles away in Gaza crashed into his garden, sending shrapnel up the front of the house.  Samir is not his real name, for this heavy-set, 52-year-old Palestinian is scared to reveal his true identity. This is his fresh start, his reward after working for more than 20 years in secret in his native Gaza as a collaborator with the Israeli security forces. "I don't regret any of my story," he said. "I'm very happy that I helped the state of Israel. Here everything is straightforward, not like with the Arabs. Here there is a law and there are rights." Many of Sderot's residents are trying to sell their houses and move to safer towns beyond the reach of the rockets. But Palestinians such as Samir are moving in, in part because property is cheaper but also because there are others like them here, a community of perhaps 80 collaborators - they prefer to use a Hebrew word that translates as "assistants" - and their close relatives.
Most arrived before the rockets, when Sderot was simply an inexpensive Israeli town close to the Gaza border and convenient for occasional family visits. Those visits are now too dangerous and most of the Palestinians in Sderot now acknowledge they can never go home. Samir was caught in 1994, the year that Yasser Arafat returned to Gaza in the wake of the Oslo peace accords. A friend and distant relative had given up Samir's name during a brutal interrogation. Samir had spent years giving the Israelis whatever information he could find about the armed groups and their planned attacks, work he kept secret even from his wife. But Palestinian collaborators risk death if they are caught by their own people. 




http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000976.html

Jody Kollapen, who was head of Lawyers for Human Rights in the apartheid regime, watches silently. He sees the "carousel" into which masses of people are jammed on their way to work, visit family or go to the hospital. Israeli peace activist Neta Golan, who lived for several years in the besieged city, explains that only 1 percent of the inhabitants are allowed to leave the city by car, and they are suspected of being collaborators with Israel . Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge, a former deputy minister of defense and of health and a current member of Parliament, a revered figure in her country, notices a sick person being taken through on a stretcher and is shocked. "To deprive people of humane medical care? You know, people die because of that," she says in a muted voice. 



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/25/palestinian-collaborator-jailed

Hers is a grim story of an unhappy life and naivety. Enticed out of the occupied West Bank and into Israel, then plunged into a high-risk spying effort that lasted for five months until her capture, Tibi was lucky to escape with her life: collaborators, who are nearly always men, are so reviled among Palestinians that many are either shot in the street or sentenced to years on death row.
She did not speak to journalists after her hearing last week, but accounts from prosecutors involved in her case paint a scattered picture of Tibi's life. Originally from Tulkarem, she was living with her family in Nablus, in the north of the occupied West Bank. She attended school until the age of 16 but then her father ordered her to marry an older man. It was an unhappy marriage: she told the court that he had forced her into prostitution. Within a few years she was divorced and increasingly cut off from her family.
Several months ago Tibi met an Arab-Israeli in Nablus, named Mahmoud, who persuaded her to join him on a trip back into Israel. She agreed, though it should perhaps have raised her suspicions when he arranged a rare permit for her to leave the West Bank.
The couple slept together and then he took her to an office in Tel Aviv, where Israeli security service agents apparently confronted her with a video of her in bed with the man, the prosecutors said. They threatened to pass the video back to her family unless she helped them and also apparently promised her 100,000 shekels (£15,500) if she would pass them regular information about a group of militants in Nablus.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: ballinaman on November 21, 2012, 01:38:55 PM
Unreal stuff....

http://www.economist.com/node/21566931
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 21, 2012, 01:45:28 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on November 21, 2012, 01:38:55 PM
Unreal stuff....

http://www.economist.com/node/21566931


From above sourse:
"Total number of Israelis killed by rocket, mortar or anti-tank fire from Gaza since 2006: 47
(Source: Wikipedia. This is disputed; another source says 26)

Number of Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli fire from April 1st 2006 to July 21st 2012: 2,879"
[/i]


::) :-\ ::) :-\ ::) :-\ ::) :-\
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:10:22 PM
Both sides are obviously as bad as each other
::):-\ ::) :-\ ::) :-\ ::) :-\
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 01:47:10 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
Going by this thread you would swear it was all one way, harrowing pictures on TV last night of Israeli nationals bodies been dragged around by motorbikes.

No Israeli nationals were dragged around by motorbikes. Get your facts right.

Really sorry there.  Does it make any difference what their nationality is?  They were brutally murdered due to a perceived link to Israel.

It made a difference as you tried to portray that the men were Israeli's. Yes it is sad to see, and wrong, but if you could only imagine the situation on the ground there, you would maybe understand why it was done. Several houses have been hit, and people killed, and it was informers who provided the locations. It went on here as well.

If you think that that image is the worst thing you have ever seen, try having a look at some of the images coming out of Gaza. Take your pick from images of burn babies. Babies in parts. Amputee's,  etc, etc, etc. They are beyond words I can assure you.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Hardy on November 21, 2012, 01:59:12 PM
What a sick auction is going on here.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 21, 2012, 02:11:35 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on November 21, 2012, 01:38:55 PM
Unreal stuff....

http://www.economist.com/node/21566931
A lot of quotes there from the I.D.F. they don't give high enough figures for Palestinian deaths caused by Israel. My brother visited a children's hospital recently in Gaza where it was full of youngsters dying with cancer from contaminated water. Also Gaza has a very high suicide rate caused by a psychological war waged on the Gazan people. The air in Gaza is always full of f16's and drones randomly killing people. The wall which is three times bigger and longer than the Berlin wall. Has a buffer zone if you approach the wall you get shot. Their is also restrictions on how far people can fish of the coast of Gaza before being murdered by the I.D.F. Israel is arguably the most racist sectarian place on earth. I cringe when I hear it being called a democracy.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 21, 2012, 02:19:07 PM
"Both sides are as bad as each other" is both totally disgusting and morally wrong. An unbelievable comment. If thats how the average observer views what  is happening in Palestine what hope do they have.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
Quote from: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 21, 2012, 02:19:07 PM
"Both sides are as bad as each other" is both totally disgusting and morally wrong. An unbelievable comment.

It may be wrong to play the Devil's advocate while people are being murdered and rockets are being fired - but in the interests of furthering the understanding of the "average observer", I feel there are a few points that the very very pro Palestinian fellas on here need to either address - or at a minimum understand how it can look that way.

GHD and I argued quite a bit a few months back about the situation, and I've since tried to dig a little deeper into the history, motives and actions, to try and understand for myself the complexities. I wouldn't say I have succeeded - but I am not prepared to take either the Hasbara as Seafoid likes to say, nor the absolution of Palestinian (Hamas) blame that exists here at 100% face value.

The fact remains that there are two sides to this story. No matter if you're a gaaboarder pro palestine, nor an American real life friend who's pro Israel.

Questions leveled at me in recent days when I have been criticising the Israeli actions include the following.

1. Nally, forgive the wikipedia reference - but since you used it, here is one:
This year alone there have been almost 2000 rockets fired at Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012)

The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

2. The Hamas Covenant/Charter.
I'd like to think this is outdated - but Hamas refuse to change the wording for "internal reasons" (see "WTF?"). In it, it calls for the the total destruction of the Jews by Jihad, and the "obliteraton or dissolution of Israel". It "calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories".

Question 2 - how does a country deal with an enemy who has embedded in their business plan that your total destruction is their goal?

Now, can anyone see a parallel in these words and in the actions of Israel currently? It seems to me, that both sides would be happy to obliterate the other off the map both in their words and actions. It also seems to me that one side is winning and as such we are up in arms about it. Does Hamas want peace fellas? Or do they want to destroy Israel? What the f**k is going on over there?

There is certainly no spin, nor bias in the death toll - but how about a bit of honesty regarding motivation. Long term motivation and recent history that has led to the present day situation?

I'm all ears.

BTW Seafoid - I enjoyed reading your post yesterday where you added a little detail as to what you think will happen. It was more honest, balanced, informative and less sniperish than anything I've read from you before on the topic.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 02:57:53 PM
This is footage of the football stadium in Gaza that Israel destroyed a few hours ago.

They have also destroyed several Govenment building. These buildings contain very important records on births deaths etc, etc. Thus wiping out records of their official existence in Palestine

This is pure evil at work before our very eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8amgsXRdZQ
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 03:21:45 PM
3 days go .. This guy's house that has 4 of his kids , his wife and 3 of his brothers.
He used to joke and play with his kids .. on that day he was joking with his kids saying ' I'm mad at you sons, don't talk to me for the whole day ' and went out the house to buy them some sweets.

5 minutes later he heard a massive explosion near his house, he was running like crazy to see what's going on. He found out the whole house being bombed on his kids and wife. He got a heart attack. And fell down on the ground. His small heart couldn't handle seeing anything after what he saw. He couldn't imagine seeing his wife , his kids being killed into parts. 6 hours later he woke up and found his kids over that bed. He went crazy. He lost his mind. He sat beside them and said " Wake up sons I know you're kidding me. This is not funny anymore .. I got you sweets. come on. He thought they will wake up. But they didn't." He lost all his kids, brothers and wife. But He'd never realized that. Because he lost his mind too
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 03:27:39 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
Quote from: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 21, 2012, 02:19:07 PM
"Both sides are as bad as each other" is both totally disgusting and morally wrong. An unbelievable comment.

It may be wrong to play the Devil's advocate while people are being murdered and rockets are being fired - but in the interests of furthering the understanding of the "average observer", I feel there are a few points that the very very pro Palestinian fellas on here need to either address - or at a minimum understand how it can look that way.

GHD and I argued quite a bit a few months back about the situation, and I've since tried to dig a little deeper into the history, motives and actions, to try and understand for myself the complexities. I wouldn't say I have succeeded - but I am not prepared to take either the Hasbara as Seafoid likes to say, nor the absolution of Palestinian (Hamas) blame that exists here at 100% face value.

The fact remains that there are two sides to this story. No matter if you're a gaaboarder pro palestine, nor an American real life friend who's pro Israel.

Questions leveled at me in recent days when I have been criticising the Israeli actions include the following.

1. Nally, forgive the wikipedia reference - but since you used it, here is one:
This year alone there have been almost 2000 rockets fired at Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012)

The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

2. The Hamas Covenant/Charter.
I'd like to think this is outdated - but Hamas refuse to change the wording for "internal reasons" (see "WTF?"). In it, it calls for the the total destruction of the Jews by Jihad, and the "obliteraton or dissolution of Israel". It "calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories".

Question 2 - how does a country deal with an enemy who has embedded in their business plan that your total destruction is their goal?

Now, can anyone see a parallel in these words and in the actions of Israel currently? It seems to me, that both sides would be happy to obliterate the other off the map both in their words and actions. It also seems to me that one side is winning and as such we are up in arms about it. Does Hamas want peace fellas? Or do they want to destroy Israel? What the f**k is going on over there?

There is certainly no spin, nor bias in the death toll - but how about a bit of honesty regarding motivation. Long term motivation and recent history that has led to the present day situation?

I'm all ears.

BTW Seafoid - I enjoyed reading your post yesterday where you added a little detail as to what you think will happen. It was more honest, balanced, informative and less sniperish than anything I've read from you before on the topic.

Puckoon

The rockets don't happen in isolation. You have to look at the whole system

There are 10 million people in Greater Israel which is Gaza, Israel, the West Bank and East Jerusalem . 5 million are Jews and 5 million are palestinians. The palestinians are divided into 5 groups- 4 of them live in greater Israel

1 Those with Israeli passports
2 East Jerusalem Palestinians
3 "West Bank" Palestinians
4 Gazans
5 Refugees in other countries
 
Only the crowd in 1 have anything like the same rights as Jews in Israel.

All are discriminated against. East Jerusalem palestinians aren't allowed to build houses and are discriminated against in the jobs market. West Bankers are not allowed to use the roads. Gazans are not given enough to eat. 95% of their water is undrinkable. The sewage system of Gaza was destroyed by Israel in 2009. Their sports facilities are now being bombed.
Refugees in group 5 aren't even allowed into Israel.

The rockets are a symptom of the dysfunction, not a cause.

Regarding your second point

Hamas Foreign Minister: We Accept Two-State Solution With '67 BordersMay 17 2011
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders


The problem is not Hamas. The problem is the system and the Zionist insistence that ALL of the land is Jewish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPVTC9frqMA
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: southdown on November 21, 2012, 03:35:57 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352

The media are winding me up on this.  Headline about bus bomb in Israel with several hurt, further down they mention the 11 Palestinians have been killed.  BBC have been utterly shameful so far in their reporting IMVHO.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Cold tea on November 21, 2012, 03:38:26 PM
Quote from: southdown on November 21, 2012, 03:35:57 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352

The media are winding me up on this.  Headline about bus bomb in Israel with several hurt, further down they mention the 11 Palestinians have been killed.  BBC have been utterly shameful so far in their reporting IMVHO.

+1 David Beckam got more headlines, shameful reporting altogether.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 03:55:06 PM
Israel the loser in all of this

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-s-alibi-for-conceding-to-hamas.premium-1.479369#

"Netanyahu and Lieberman came to power in no small measure because of Operation Cast Lead. The residents of the south voted in their masses for the pair, who had taken Olmert and Livni to task for their failure to get rid of Hamas. The challengers from Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu promised in every setting before the 2009 elections that they would accomplish what Olmert and Livni didn't. Ultimately, their own past criticisms have come crashing into the reality of the present. What remains of their fiery speeches is the understanding of the limits of force.
What remained for Netanyahu to do at the Sde Boker ceremony was present his alibi to the south's residents and Likud's voters. What remained was for him to explain why he was willing to settle for a cease-fire that included concessions to a terrorist organization, rather than overthrowing Hamas as he had promised.

Netanyahu's first line of defense was to underline the accomplishments of the past week. We had hit the leaders of the terrorists, destroyed thousands of missiles, we had hit Hamas installations and restored deterrence. Netanyahu's second line of defense was to explain the complications that made him reluctant to launch a ground operation in Gaza. "Israel is at the heart of an unstable, complex and dangerous region ... and we must act with diplomatic wisdom," he said. His third line of defense was to repeat election promises to residents of the south: We will look after you, repair the damage and give you compensation.

Although the exit strategy from Pillar of Defense is almost identical to the one from Cast Lead, the balance of power it leaves between Israel and Hamas is worse. Rocket fire on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and a parade of Arab foreign ministers to the Gaza Strip, giving legitimacy to Hamas, are just two examples.
"


I would say that losing Stew says it all for Israel

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 04:01:22 PM
Seafoid - I  have dug deep enough to have uncovered the 2008 Hamas statement on accepting the two state solution with 1967 borders. My point is that many who read the news (American news in particular) have not, and that the Hamas decision to not change the charter is no way to garner any kind of western support. Then again, the charter also states that conferences and treaties and talks are all a waste of time and that the only solution is through Jihad. I wish I was making it up. But I'm not.

Far out example:
Catholic Ireland writes a charter stating that the destruction of England, and the obliteration of the protestant people is our goal. Then we say - ah, we don't really mean that literally, its more a figure of speech - but....... we aren't changing it.

You see how it looks? Could you really blame themmuns for not trusting us?

Maybe a different question could be "Are Hamas doing anything to further peace in the area"?


Another question re 1967 - what is your opinion on how that war started and ultimately led to Israel being an occupier for the last 40 years?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 140 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 04:06:32 PM
The BBC have been shameful in their coverage, but hey, what did we really expect.

Just watching the BBC news now and they have had the bus bomb as the headline story.
Several Palestinians, including children have been killed today and it is a non story for the BBC

I don't know if anyone read the Irish News, but BBC NI decided to pull the programme "Shalom Belfast". It was due to be broadcast on Monday night. They are pathetic

Maybe they didn't want to embarrass the people who show their support for Israel, and Gordon from Co Down who converts to a jew and goes to live in a settlement. He says in the show when asked about taking someones house in Palestine: "Their holiday is over. It's time they left"

Here is a short clip from the documentary they decided to shelve

http://www.triplevision.co.uk/2012/02/shalom-belfast/
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 04:01:22 PM
Seafoid - I  have dug deep enough to have uncovered the 2008 Hamas statement on accepting the two state solution with 1967 borders. My point is that many who read the news (American news in particular) have not, and that the Hamas decision to not change the charter is no way to garner any kind of western support. Then again, the charter also states that conferences and treaties and talks are all a waste of time and that the only solution is through Jihad. I wish I was making it up. But I'm not.

Far out example:
Catholic Ireland writes a charter stating that the destruction of England, and the obliteration of the protestant people is our goal. Then we say - ah, we don't really mean that literally, its more a figure of speech - but....... we aren't changing it.

You see how it looks? Could you really blame themmuns for not trusting us?

Maybe a different question could be "Are Hamas doing anything to further peace in the area"?


Another question re 1967 - what is your opinion on how that war started and ultimately led to Israel being an occupier for the last 40 years?


Puckoon

Articles 2 & 3 of the constitution were there until a referendum in 1999 once the peace process got underway
They claimed the wee 6 for the republic.  A lot of Prods up there didn't like it but they didn't carpet bomb us.
they didn't destroy Croke Park.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

They went when the time was appropriate. I don't see the big deal about the Hamas Charter given our own history TBH.

The 67 war started because it was always the plan to take all of the land. Egypt was attacked by Israel not vice versa.
They wanted the West Bank post 48 and the shakham plan to take it was formulated in 1963.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BrEQKn_qo&list=UU2z1N-0W9zMmtMkEnmaSlRQ&index=10&feature=plcp


If they didn't want the land why are there 800,000 settlers there now? 

They thought they could do a repeat of 1948 but they got it wrong.

It is a real Jewish tragedy  , the whole mess. But nobody could stop them. 

People think Israel /Palestine is no different to Northern Ireland 20 years ago  but it isn't.
Israel is like Ulster in 1650.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ulick on November 21, 2012, 04:44:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

Depend on the definition of "rocket". 2000 rockets with 3 fatalities suggest they're about as lethal as the rockets we see fired at the PSNI every July. In fact Malta has more people killed by fireworks every year than are killed by these rockets in Israel.

Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
Question 2 - how does a country deal with an enemy who has embedded in their business plan that your total destruction is their goal?

Ignore them and trust in democracy. The same could be said about the anarchist movement and global capitaism, North Korea and South Korea, RSF/CIRA and Northern Ireland - no one seriously believes Hamas has the ability to inflict more than a few fatalities on Israel never mind total destruction of the state.


On the who started it propaganda war I've found the following enlightening. Basically the rockets fired from Gaza are usually preceeded by fatalities in Gaza from projectiles fired by the Israelis:

http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2012/02/half-story-what-idfspokesperson-leaves.html (http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2012/02/half-story-what-idfspokesperson-leaves.html)

"As you can see in the chart [below], increases in the red line, which signifies Palestinian casualties, typically precede increases in the blue line, which signifies launches of projectiles from Gaza. This is particularly evident before the most significant spikes in the blue line. This suggests that Palestinian launches may be explained, in part, as a response to Israeli projectiles which kill or injure Palestinians."

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6oijjzfYDMY/T0JemmjmoAI/AAAAAAAAByE/a0CygPzQtqY/s1600/launchescasualties.png)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 04:45:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 04:25:59 PM


The 67 war started because it was always the plan to take all of the land. Egypt was attacked by Israel not vice versa.

This seems to be the crux, wouldn't you say? It also seems to be the area where historical opinons differ regarding the events that led to the attack. As they used to say - get your retaliation in first.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
Quote from: Ulick on November 21, 2012, 04:44:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

Depend on the definition of "rocket". 2000 rockets with 3 fatalities suggest they're about as lethal as the rockets we see fired at the PSNI every July. In fact Malta has more people killed by fireworks every year than are killed by these rockets in Israel.


I've often wondered why their success rate is so low. I don't attribute it to them firing off Roman Candles though?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 21, 2012, 05:12:05 PM
There is a lot of talk about a ceasefire been agreed. Lets hope it's true
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 06:04:26 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-day-8-of-israel-gaza-conflict-2012-1.479350

Egypt has announced that Israel and Hamas had agreed to a cease-fire to end eight days of fighting. Hundreds of rockets were fired into southern Israel, killing killed five Israelis, while IDF strikes in Gaza killed more than 140 Palestinians.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton arrived in Israel on Tuesday, to help the sides reach a cease-fire.


I this is true then Hillary has been squeezing Bibi's nuts. This is a climbdown for him.
I wonder if it linked to the Palestinian vote at the UN at the end of the month. Is there some deal they have cooked to avoid Israelis being dragged to the Hague.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ulick on November 21, 2012, 06:23:10 PM
I wouldn't say it's a climbdown, in fact I'd say he'd no intention of a ground invasion. The IDF simply have no credible targets left. Continued bombing just creates more innocent victims which not even the famed hasbara can counter. The Palestinians have been given another bloody nose and the Egyptians have been shown who is boss. Job done!
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 06:27:59 PM
Seafood- I assume you've no problem calling the people who put a bomb on a public bus in tel Aviv murderers and cowards, targeting civilians in breech of the Geneva convention. Were probably women and children on that bus. Hamas then praised the attack, what do you think about that seafood.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ulick on November 21, 2012, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 06:27:59 PM
Seafood- I assume you've no problem calling the people who put a bomb on a public bus in tel Aviv murderers and cowards, targeting civilians in breech of the Geneva convention. Were probably women and children on that bus. Hamas then praised the attack, what do you think about that seafood.

Where they targeting civilians though - I read the bus was next to the IDF Headquaters so it could be argued that they were targeting the IDF and some civilians were injured as collateral damage. That's what the IDF are arguing is happening in Gaza isn't it?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on November 21, 2012, 06:33:18 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
Quote from: Ulick on November 21, 2012, 04:44:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

Depend on the definition of "rocket". 2000 rockets with 3 fatalities suggest they're about as lethal as the rockets we see fired at the PSNI every July. In fact Malta has more people killed by fireworks every year than are killed by these rockets in Israel.


I've often wondered why their success rate is so low. I don't attribute it to them firing off Roman Candles though?

Since they've killed a few people this time I'm sure there is plenty of variation in 'rocket quality', but I stayed in Askelon in 2007 and they showed me where a 'rocket' had hit the hotel car-park. The Tarmac wasn't even damaged, looked like someone had skid a motor-bike.
A few longer range efforts have got a lot of publicity, but the vast majority don't go more than 10 or so miles and apart from a couple of small towns, it's empty desert or maybe some farms to the North.

The West Bank as portrayed in maps doesn't exist, the small towns and cities there have been separated/ghettoized and the idea seems to be to make a Palestinian state unfeasible. Israel has the power right now and there are plenty of right wing Zionists who want all that land (the whole country is tiny). Delays in the proposed 2 state settlement will be used make further territorial gains.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 06:27:59 PM
Seafood- I assume you've no problem calling the people who put a bomb on a public bus in tel Aviv murderers and cowards, targeting civilians in breech of the Geneva convention. Were probably women and children on that bus. Hamas then praised the attack, what do you think about that seafood.
Obviously. It is not right to target civilians, but I'd love to see Israel take international law seriously as well.
WTF are 800,000 Jews doing in the Palestinian occupied territories ? 

Bringing in the GC is a bit of as joke really seeing as Israeli ignores them. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on November 21, 2012, 06:53:07 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
Quote from: Ulick on November 21, 2012, 04:44:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on November 21, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

Depend on the definition of "rocket". 2000 rockets with 3 fatalities suggest they're about as lethal as the rockets we see fired at the PSNI every July. In fact Malta has more people killed by fireworks every year than are killed by these rockets in Israel.


See link to economist article posted earlier. IDF states that only 35 out of 848 projectiles fell on 'non-empty' areas. So my guess on that was close enough, add other observation about lack of lethality of many and you have your answer.

I've often wondered why their success rate is so low. I don't attribute it to them firing off Roman Candles though?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(

Well Rossfan, I call people who fire missiles into buildings of civilians cowardly murderers. Just because I think Hamas joy at blowing up a bus is sick doesn't automatically mean I'm a supporter of Israel. Just means there are plenty of murdering cowards on both sides. It is however interesting to read the relatively lukewarm criticism of Hamas by seafood when he copies and pastes endless articles when Israel is the aggressor. For what its worth I do believe Israel is the biggest aggressor but its not the only one.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 08:24:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(

Well Rossfan, I call people who fire missiles into buildings of civilians cowardly murderers. Just because I think Hamas joy at blowing up a bus is sick doesn't automatically mean I'm a supporter of Israel. Just means there are plenty of murdering cowards on both sides. It is however interesting to read the relatively lukewarm criticism of Hamas by seafood when he copies and pastes endless articles when Israel is the aggressor. For what its worth I do believe Israel is the biggest aggressor but its not the only one.
Is that you BalldeBeaver?

Israel is the aggressor BTW. If the Brits kept Fermanagh under lockdown and allowed only 2000 calories in per head for over 6 years and trashed the county's water system and had 10% of kids badly malnourished as official policy I would consider the Brits to be out of order. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: CiKe on November 21, 2012, 08:55:13 PM
I wouldn't be next or near as informed as most of ye, but i'd like to think i could see through the propaganda.

I'm not sure I agree with all of you on that the BEEB is wilfully taking sides however. Unfortunately, like it or not, actual Israeli deaths/injuries are less common which in some respects make them more reportable than the more common suffering of Palestinians in Gaza. To be clear, I'm not saying this is right or that I agree with this hierarchy of victims - far from it.

That said, unintentionally I think the BEEB gave a succinct insight into the day to day last night. Admittedly I didn't watch the whole of the 22:00 news, but I could have sworn that during the first few minutes they showed destroyed buildings, piles of rubble and smoke rising across Gaza. Juxtaposed against this was a hole in an Israeli roof and a 6inch hole in the ground beneath it, about the size where'd you'd maybe put a flower pot. Not exactly proportionate response shall we say.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 08:24:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(

Well Rossfan, I call people who fire missiles into buildings of civilians cowardly murderers. Just because I think Hamas joy at blowing up a bus is sick doesn't automatically mean I'm a supporter of Israel. Just means there are plenty of murdering cowards on both sides. It is however interesting to read the relatively lukewarm criticism of Hamas by seafood when he copies and pastes endless articles when Israel is the aggressor. For what its worth I do believe Israel is the biggest aggressor but its not the only one.
Is that you BalldeBeaver?

Israel is the aggressor BTW. If the Brits kept Fermanagh under lockdown and allowed only 2000 calories in per head for over 6 years and trashed the county's water system and had 10% of kids badly malnourished as official policy I would consider the Brits to be out of order.

You're either with me or against me right seafood? perhaps if you read my post youd see i did indicate israel is aggressor. However, you do the Palestinian plight no favours with your complete inability to be genuinely critical of Hamas and the fundamentalist religious shite they spout.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 08:24:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(

Well Rossfan, I call people who fire missiles into buildings of civilians cowardly murderers. Just because I think Hamas joy at blowing up a bus is sick doesn't automatically mean I'm a supporter of Israel. Just means there are plenty of murdering cowards on both sides. It is however interesting to read the relatively lukewarm criticism of Hamas by seafood when he copies and pastes endless articles when Israel is the aggressor. For what its worth I do believe Israel is the biggest aggressor but its not the only one.
Is that you BalldeBeaver?

Israel is the aggressor BTW. If the Brits kept Fermanagh under lockdown and allowed only 2000 calories in per head for over 6 years and trashed the county's water system and had 10% of kids badly malnourished as official policy I would consider the Brits to be out of order.

You're either with me or against me right seafood? perhaps if you read my post youd see i did indicate israel is aggressor. However, you do the Palestinian plight no favours with your complete inability to be genuinely critical of Hamas and the fundamentalist religious shite they spout.
Do you think abortion should be legalised in Ireland? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:33:42 PM
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri hailed the explosion.

"Hamas blesses the attack in Tel Aviv and sees it as a natural response to the Israeli massacres...in Gaza," he told Reuters. "Palestinian factions will resort to all means in order to protect our Palestinian civilians in the absence of a world effort to stop the Israeli aggression."

Sweet cakes were handed out in celebration in Gaza's main hospital, which has been inundated with wounded from the round-the-clock Israeli bombing and shelling.

"GATES OF HELL"

"You opened the gates of hell on yourselves," Hamas's armed wing, the al-Qassam brigades, said on Twitter. "Oh Zionists, you have to drag yourselves out of hell, go back home now, go back to Germany, Poland, Russia, America and anywhere else."
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 08:24:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(

Well Rossfan, I call people who fire missiles into buildings of civilians cowardly murderers. Just because I think Hamas joy at blowing up a bus is sick doesn't automatically mean I'm a supporter of Israel. Just means there are plenty of murdering cowards on both sides. It is however interesting to read the relatively lukewarm criticism of Hamas by seafood when he copies and pastes endless articles when Israel is the aggressor. For what its worth I do believe Israel is the biggest aggressor but its not the only one.
Is that you BalldeBeaver?

Israel is the aggressor BTW. If the Brits kept Fermanagh under lockdown and allowed only 2000 calories in per head for over 6 years and trashed the county's water system and had 10% of kids badly malnourished as official policy I would consider the Brits to be out of order.

You're either with me or against me right seafood? perhaps if you read my post youd see i did indicate israel is aggressor. However, you do the Palestinian plight no favours with your complete inability to be genuinely critical of Hamas and the fundamentalist religious shite they spout.
Do you think abortion should be legalised in Ireland?

You're doing a great job of showing just how unable you are to be balanced by refusing to engage. Here's a quote for you from Hamas ...

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 10:44:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:33:42 PM
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri hailed the explosion.

"Hamas blesses the attack in Tel Aviv and sees it as a natural response to the Israeli massacres...in Gaza," he told Reuters. "Palestinian factions will resort to all means in order to protect our Palestinian civilians in the absence of a world effort to stop the Israeli aggression."

Sweet cakes were handed out in celebration in Gaza's main hospital, which has been inundated with wounded from the round-the-clock Israeli bombing and shelling.

"GATES OF HELL"

"You opened the gates of hell on yourselves," Hamas's armed wing, the al-Qassam brigades, said on Twitter. "Oh Zionists, you have to drag yourselves out of hell, go back home now, go back to Germany, Poland, Russia, America and anywhere else."
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 08:24:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(

Well Rossfan, I call people who fire missiles into buildings of civilians cowardly murderers. Just because I think Hamas joy at blowing up a bus is sick doesn't automatically mean I'm a supporter of Israel. Just means there are plenty of murdering cowards on both sides. It is however interesting to read the relatively lukewarm criticism of Hamas by seafood when he copies and pastes endless articles when Israel is the aggressor. For what its worth I do believe Israel is the biggest aggressor but its not the only one.
Is that you BalldeBeaver?

Israel is the aggressor BTW. If the Brits kept Fermanagh under lockdown and allowed only 2000 calories in per head for over 6 years and trashed the county's water system and had 10% of kids badly malnourished as official policy I would consider the Brits to be out of order.

You're either with me or against me right seafood? perhaps if you read my post youd see i did indicate israel is aggressor. However, you do the Palestinian plight no favours with your complete inability to be genuinely critical of Hamas and the fundamentalist religious shite they spout.
Do you think abortion should be legalised in Ireland?

You're doing a great job of showing just how unable you are to be balanced by refusing to engage. Here's a quote for you from Hamas ...

IT would be fantastic if Hamas were like Fine Gael and they wore suits and went to mass on Sundays.  But they come from Gaza. And you know if you look at Irish history Hamas aren't that different in outlook to the people who wrote the constitution in 1937. Fundamentalism can happen anywhere. You have to understand what Israel has done to Gaza in terms of de-development and how this  turned many people to religion.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2538308?uid=3737760&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21101403997591

But do any of your quotes above legalise what Israel does to Gaza? Of course not.
And you never answered my abortion question either.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:53:46 PM
What's your question got to do with this thread?

I love how you are so understanding of Hamas fundamentalist. Could same argument not be made for the Jews, almost wiped out by a genocide and hell bent on building a country no matter what. Both are bullshit positions but seems you are only able to say one side does wrong.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on November 21, 2012, 10:57:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:53:46 PM
What's your question got to do with this thread?

I love how you are so understanding of Hamas fundamentalist. Could same argument not be made for the Jews, almost wiped out by a genocide and hell bent on building a country no matter what. Both are bullshit positions but seems you are only able to say one side does wrong.

It could be argued that it's less of a bullshit position to be hell bent on building a country if you've been living in that place for hundred or thousands of years as opposed to returning after a 2000 year gap.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 11:06:02 PM
Quote from: tyssam5 on November 21, 2012, 10:57:09 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:53:46 PM
What's your question got to do with this thread?

I love how you are so understanding of Hamas fundamentalist. Could same argument not be made for the Jews, almost wiped out by a genocide and hell bent on building a country no matter what. Both are bullshit positions but seems you are only able to say one side does wrong.

It could be argued that it's less of a bullshit position to be hell bent on building a country if you've been living in that place for hundred or thousands of years as opposed to returning after a 2000 year gap.

Yes and I'd agree with that but doesn't mean I can't call a spade a spade when talking about Hamas. Seafood seems to think everything is excusable because Israel is a rogue murderous state. I say everything is not excused. Its only a shane the cowardly yanks and toothless UN dont kick Israel out of the UN. Our cowardly government should have expelled their nasty little ambassador too.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 22, 2012, 12:29:20 AM
Well, after 8 days of uncalled for madness, a ceasefire has been reached and hopefully, no further loss of life or injury will take place for a long time. Given Hamas has agreed a deal with Israel through Egypt, means they have to keep their word with Egypt if they stand any chance of opening up the Rafah crossing for increased trade and passenger movement. Israel has to keep their side due to the US giving their word to Egypt. Whoever blinks 1st and breaks the ceasefire, then there will be a big row for sure.

Tonight in Gaza they are celebrating wildly. They fought the might of the 4th best equipped army in the world. They fought them with rockets that for the largest part, fell on empty land. They drove fear into the heart of Israel for 8 solid days. That was the only weapons they hard to fight back with. Bibi called up 75,000 troops and marched them to the top of the hill. Combined with the standing army, they numbered close to 100,000. Not even this threat scared them, and Bibi had to march them all back down again tonight.

They go home wounded, and judging by the look on Bibi's face tonight, he looked a very beaten man. He backed out of the ceasefire last night and had 24 hours where he pounded the strip from one end to the other. Today he got pulled into line and told to stop. He let Clinton down big time yesterday as an agreement was reached and she was to announce it. He backed out and the US were raging. The body language of Clinton last night told it all. Today she stayed in Cairo and announced it with the Egyptian Prime Minister.

Sadly though, a high price was paid. Over 150 people died, the majority women and children. The images of the young children will stay with me forever. Families destroyed, and a level of pain we could never imagine feeling. Over 1,000 are injured, and many of them have serious wounds. Dime bombs cause serious internal injuries, as they are the preferred weapon of choice for the IDF.

In the past 18 months Israel would have killed as many people. Their deaths never made the news, and it never changed anything. When the same number die in 8 days, then the world notices.

Maybe, just maybe, their deaths could be the last for a long time, and people can build on this going forward. The last 8 days brought the plight of Palestinians to the attention of a lot of people, and they got to see how ruthless and cruel Israel were. They showed no respect as they killed and bombed at will, and did so without any condemnation from the west. However, when you think of it, how could the west say anything when we look back at their actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

While the main stream media were there reporting, it was twitter and facebook where the news flowed. People were live tweeting 24/7. Every attack was reported instantly. Within minutes you find out what damage was done, and if there were any injured. Within another 15 minutes, photos would appear. The main stream media would be reporting it 2 hours later. Live streams were set up and live broadcasts of the Gaza skyline were streamed. Some nights it was frighting to hear the ongoing aerial bombardment. Israel lost the PR war on this one, and every lie they told was de bunked in minutes. There was no hiding the truth on the internet.

A lot of fingers were pointing at who started it. For me, the minute they hit the car last Wednesday and killed a top man, they lit the fuse. They knew that Hamas would hit back, and then they could go crazy. Funny that as the days went on, reporters seemed to forget this and blamed the rockets for the trouble. They also forgot about the boys that were killed a few days before that. This thread is running for a while now. There has been a lot of posts going back over the weeks that shows you what was going on in the build up to this. This attack was well planned by Israel, and it was expected.

Hamas will come out of this stronger than ever. Ismail Haniya is a very popular man in Gaza, and over the last few years, he has gone from strength to strength in the face of so many hurdles. I feel he is a good man to lead them over the next few years. Fatah are going down hill rapidly, and Abbas has lost a serious amount of respect recently.

Israel found out this time that they are dealing with a different landscape now, and they are not going to get their own way too easy again. Egypt is a powerful force, and they took the lead in this one. There was no way in hell that Egypt would have stood by for a minute if Israel had of sent in the ground troops. Turkey too stood up as they are still seeking an apology for the deaths on Mavi Marmara. Others in the region stood up as well, and combined, they sent out a strong message that things had changed.

I know full well from my experiences in Gaza that they want to live in peace. They love life, and they have suffered enough. If Israel would only lift the siege and allow them to live a normal life, then not only would they be happy, but the whole middle east would be the better for it.

Lets hope the news from Gaza for a while will be a whole lot better, and Seafoid and I can post something different for a change. Tonight my anger has changed to hope, and i'm looking forward to the coming weeks and months to see the changes.

Sure how can they fail now, they have Stew behind them  ;)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on November 22, 2012, 01:36:33 AM
Are you not glad that their rockets fell without killing people GHD? I know I am, I just wish the Israeli's weapons did the same.

Hey, nice crack at the end there bud, hey, when I am wrong at least I will come out and say so. :-[
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 22, 2012, 03:44:42 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(
Agree with you 100%. If people wanted to strike a blow for Ireland the first thing I would do would be level RTE studios. Shameless shower. The British mouth piece in Ireland. If memory serves me right I think they had sensor ship on Sinn Fein years before the BBC. Western media is mostly controlled by world order pathological liers its how they keep control, brain washing people.

I'm glad there is a ceasefire for now but Israel being Israel still killed people after it was announced. Sky still full of drones and f16's tonight as well. Dose anyone know if the blockage is still in place?

That's a sad story GHD a bout the dad coming back and finding his family all dead. I just feel so sad for the people of Palestine they have a very very tough existence. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on November 22, 2012, 05:10:45 AM
Quote from: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 22, 2012, 03:44:42 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(
Agree with you 100%. If people wanted to strike a blow for Ireland the first thing I would do would be level RTE studios. Shameless shower. The British mouth piece in Ireland. If memory serves me right I think they had sensor ship on Sinn Fein years before the BBC. Western media is mostly controlled by world order pathological liers its how they keep control, brain washing people.

I'm glad there is a ceasefire for now but Israel being Israel still killed people after it was announced. Sky still full of drones and f16's tonight as well. Dose anyone know if the blockage is still in place?

That's a sad story GHD a bout the dad coming back and finding his family all dead. I just feel so sad for the people of Palestine they have a very very tough existence.

True but government decision as opposed to RTE  think.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 09:54:12 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 22, 2012, 12:29:20 AM
Well, after 8 days of uncalled for madness, a ceasefire has been reached and hopefully, no further loss of life or injury will take place for a long time. Given Hamas has agreed a deal with Israel through Egypt, means they have to keep their word with Egypt if they stand any chance of opening up the Rafah crossing for increased trade and passenger movement. Israel has to keep their side due to the US giving their word to Egypt. Whoever blinks 1st and breaks the ceasefire, then there will be a big row for sure.

Tonight in Gaza they are celebrating wildly. They fought the might of the 4th best equipped army in the world. They fought them with rockets that for the largest part, fell on empty land. They drove fear into the heart of Israel for 8 solid days. That was the only weapons they hard to fight back with. Bibi called up 75,000 troops and marched them to the top of the hill. Combined with the standing army, they numbered close to 100,000. Not even this threat scared them, and Bibi had to march them all back down again tonight.

They go home wounded, and judging by the look on Bibi's face tonight, he looked a very beaten man. He backed out of the ceasefire last night and had 24 hours where he pounded the strip from one end to the other. Today he got pulled into line and told to stop. He let Clinton down big time yesterday as an agreement was reached and she was to announce it. He backed out and the US were raging. The body language of Clinton last night told it all. Today she stayed in Cairo and announced it with the Egyptian Prime Minister.

Sadly though, a high price was paid. Over 150 people died, the majority women and children. The images of the young children will stay with me forever. Families destroyed, and a level of pain we could never imagine feeling. Over 1,000 are injured, and many of them have serious wounds. Dime bombs cause serious internal injuries, as they are the preferred weapon of choice for the IDF.

In the past 18 months Israel would have killed as many people. Their deaths never made the news, and it never changed anything. When the same number die in 8 days, then the world notices.

Maybe, just maybe, their deaths could be the last for a long time, and people can build on this going forward. The last 8 days brought the plight of Palestinians to the attention of a lot of people, and they got to see how ruthless and cruel Israel were. They showed no respect as they killed and bombed at will, and did so without any condemnation from the west. However, when you think of it, how could the west say anything when we look back at their actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

While the main stream media were there reporting, it was twitter and facebook where the news flowed. People were live tweeting 24/7. Every attack was reported instantly. Within minutes you find out what damage was done, and if there were any injured. Within another 15 minutes, photos would appear. The main stream media would be reporting it 2 hours later. Live streams were set up and live broadcasts of the Gaza skyline were streamed. Some nights it was frighting to hear the ongoing aerial bombardment. Israel lost the PR war on this one, and every lie they told was de bunked in minutes. There was no hiding the truth on the internet.

A lot of fingers were pointing at who started it. For me, the minute they hit the car last Wednesday and killed a top man, they lit the fuse. They knew that Hamas would hit back, and then they could go crazy. Funny that as the days went on, reporters seemed to forget this and blamed the rockets for the trouble. They also forgot about the boys that were killed a few days before that. This thread is running for a while now. There has been a lot of posts going back over the weeks that shows you what was going on in the build up to this. This attack was well planned by Israel, and it was expected.

Hamas will come out of this stronger than ever. Ismail Haniya is a very popular man in Gaza, and over the last few years, he has gone from strength to strength in the face of so many hurdles. I feel he is a good man to lead them over the next few years. Fatah are going down hill rapidly, and Abbas has lost a serious amount of respect recently.

Israel found out this time that they are dealing with a different landscape now, and they are not going to get their own way too easy again. Egypt is a powerful force, and they took the lead in this one. There was no way in hell that Egypt would have stood by for a minute if Israel had of sent in the ground troops. Turkey too stood up as they are still seeking an apology for the deaths on Mavi Marmara. Others in the region stood up as well, and combined, they sent out a strong message that things had changed.

I know full well from my experiences in Gaza that they want to live in peace. They love life, and they have suffered enough. If Israel would only lift the siege and allow them to live a normal life, then not only would they be happy, but the whole middle east would be the better for it.

Lets hope the news from Gaza for a while will be a whole lot better, and Seafoid and I can post something different for a change. Tonight my anger has changed to hope, and i'm looking forward to the coming weeks and months to see the changes.

Sure how can they fail now, they have Stew behind them  ;)

Unless the system changes nothing meaningful will change.
Israel has de developed Gaza since 1967.  There is very little work. The people can't get decent job experience.
Hamas can't do anything about that. The system run by Israel is rotten.

What is clear is that the status quo is unsustainable but there is no way to see how to get onto a different path where everyone gets a shot at a fair deal. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: LeoMc on November 22, 2012, 12:54:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 10:44:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:33:42 PM
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri hailed the explosion.

"Hamas blesses the attack in Tel Aviv and sees it as a natural response to the Israeli massacres...in Gaza," he told Reuters. "Palestinian factions will resort to all means in order to protect our Palestinian civilians in the absence of a world effort to stop the Israeli aggression."

Sweet cakes were handed out in celebration in Gaza's main hospital, which has been inundated with wounded from the round-the-clock Israeli bombing and shelling.

"GATES OF HELL"

"You opened the gates of hell on yourselves," Hamas's armed wing, the al-Qassam brigades, said on Twitter. "Oh Zionists, you have to drag yourselves out of hell, go back home now, go back to Germany, Poland, Russia, America and anywhere else."
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2012, 08:24:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 21, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Itchy, what do you call people who fire big rockets and bombs into multi story buildings occupied by hundreds of civilians - at least 70% of them women and children?
Do you consider them to be fair game ?
RTE news gave the bus attack with 20 wounded first mention and added as an afterthought that 11 ppeople were killed in Gaza.
So 20 wounded Israelis are more newsworthy than 11 dead Palestinians. :-\
Same oul hierarchy of victims sh1te from the Western media. :(

Well Rossfan, I call people who fire missiles into buildings of civilians cowardly murderers. Just because I think Hamas joy at blowing up a bus is sick doesn't automatically mean I'm a supporter of Israel. Just means there are plenty of murdering cowards on both sides. It is however interesting to read the relatively lukewarm criticism of Hamas by seafood when he copies and pastes endless articles when Israel is the aggressor. For what its worth I do believe Israel is the biggest aggressor but its not the only one.
Is that you BalldeBeaver?

Israel is the aggressor BTW. If the Brits kept Fermanagh under lockdown and allowed only 2000 calories in per head for over 6 years and trashed the county's water system and had 10% of kids badly malnourished as official policy I would consider the Brits to be out of order.

You're either with me or against me right seafood? perhaps if you read my post youd see i did indicate israel is aggressor. However, you do the Palestinian plight no favours with your complete inability to be genuinely critical of Hamas and the fundamentalist religious shite they spout.
Do you think abortion should be legalised in Ireland?

You're doing a great job of showing just how unable you are to be balanced by refusing to engage. Here's a quote for you from Hamas ...

IT would be fantastic if Hamas were like Fine Gael and they wore suits and went to mass on Sundays.  But they come from Gaza. And you know if you look at Irish history Hamas aren't that different in outlook to the people who wrote the constitution in 1937. Fundamentalism can happen anywhere. You have to understand what Israel has done to Gaza in terms of de-development and how this  turned many people to religion.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2538308?uid=3737760&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21101403997591

But do any of your quotes above legalise what Israel does to Gaza? Of course not.
And you never answered my abortion question either.

I don't think he was justifying it and he appears to be condemning it. Are you able to condemn some of the Hamas actions rather than justify them?
Hamas have murdered many less innocents than the IDF but there are still victims on the Israeli side. Just as the Israeli aggression pushes the people of Gaza toward their hardliners so the Hamas response is pushing moderate Israelis toward their hard-liners.

The Gazans won the PR battle thanks to the good work of people like GHD and the courage of those on the ground and it is that groundswell which stopped this latest bloodbath, not their mostly ineffectual rocket attacks.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 01:05:20 PM
By all means condemn Hamas- they kill people too, they aren't always particularly tolerant - but they haven't ruined the lives of 5 million Jews the way the Israeli government has in the case of the palestinians.
Most Israelis don't want to know what they have done to Gaza. They don't want to accept the reality of Israeli state violence.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/gaza-requiem-six-remarks-on-image-perceptions-and-four-dead-palestinian-children.premium-1.479828

But there is a Reuters picture that I wish I hadn't seen. I looked at it, almost by accident, and it has been seared into my memory ever since. It shows 6 year old Jamal Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 4 year old Yousef Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 7 year old Sarah Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, and one year old Ibrahim Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, all lying together, faces bruised, eyes closed, breaths extinguished, on a steel gurney in a Gaza morgue.
They were killed in an air force bombing raid in what Israel says - and I am absolutely convinced - was a regrettable human error.
But most Israelis haven't seen this picture. They wouldn't want to, even if they could. They may have heard of, but they certainly haven't devoted too much attention to, the killing of the 8 members of the al-Dalu family. Many of them were harshly critical of Haaretz for having chosen to devote a main headline to their demise.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: LeoMc on November 22, 2012, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 01:05:20 PM
By all means condemn Hamas- they kill people too, they aren't always particularly tolerant - but they haven't ruined the lives of 5 million Jews the way the Israeli government has in the case of the palestinians.
Most Israelis don't want to know what they have done to Gaza. They don't want to accept the reality of Israeli state violence.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/gaza-requiem-six-remarks-on-image-perceptions-and-four-dead-palestinian-children.premium-1.479828

But there is a Reuters picture that I wish I hadn't seen. I looked at it, almost by accident, and it has been seared into my memory ever since. It shows 6 year old Jamal Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 4 year old Yousef Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 7 year old Sarah Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, and one year old Ibrahim Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, all lying together, faces bruised, eyes closed, breaths extinguished, on a steel gurney in a Gaza morgue.
They were killed in an air force bombing raid in what Israel says - and I am absolutely convinced - was a regrettable human error.
But most Israelis haven't seen this picture. They wouldn't want to, even if they could. They may have heard of, but they certainly haven't devoted too much attention to, the killing of the 8 members of the al-Dalu family. Many of them were harshly critical of Haaretz for having chosen to devote a main headline to their demise.

The ordinary Israeli people are the ones who need to see the pictures. While they have their own dead they will not ask questions and while Hamas fire rockets the Generals in Tel Aviv can paint the picture of the big bad ogre who needs to be exterminated.

While Hamas terrorism goes un-condemned the Generals know their high tech terrorism cannot be fully condemned and that those who condone one act of terrorism while condemning another can be painted as Anti-semites.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 01:56:30 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 22, 2012, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 01:05:20 PM
By all means condemn Hamas- they kill people too, they aren't always particularly tolerant - but they haven't ruined the lives of 5 million Jews the way the Israeli government has in the case of the palestinians.
Most Israelis don't want to know what they have done to Gaza. They don't want to accept the reality of Israeli state violence.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/gaza-requiem-six-remarks-on-image-perceptions-and-four-dead-palestinian-children.premium-1.479828

But there is a Reuters picture that I wish I hadn't seen. I looked at it, almost by accident, and it has been seared into my memory ever since. It shows 6 year old Jamal Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 4 year old Yousef Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 7 year old Sarah Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, and one year old Ibrahim Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, all lying together, faces bruised, eyes closed, breaths extinguished, on a steel gurney in a Gaza morgue.
They were killed in an air force bombing raid in what Israel says - and I am absolutely convinced - was a regrettable human error.
But most Israelis haven't seen this picture. They wouldn't want to, even if they could. They may have heard of, but they certainly haven't devoted too much attention to, the killing of the 8 members of the al-Dalu family. Many of them were harshly critical of Haaretz for having chosen to devote a main headline to their demise.

The ordinary Israeli people are the ones who need to see the pictures. While they have their own dead they will not ask questions and while Hamas fire rockets the Generals in Tel Aviv can paint the picture of the big bad ogre who needs to be exterminated.

While Hamas terrorism goes un-condemned the Generals know their high tech terrorism cannot be fully condemned and that those who condone one act of terrorism while condemning another can be painted as Anti-semites.

Who is supposed to condemn Hamas? The Arabs ? 

The whole terrorism/ moral army framing of the conflict is bullshit. As is the anti Zionist= antisemite argument.
Palestinians have their homes demolished because they aren't Jewish. The Israeli approach to the conflict
is utterly amoral. And it makes Jewish ethics more or less redundant.

What difference would it make anyway if Hamas was condemned? Would it change Israel?
Would Israel stop building settlements ?


http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/27/erekat-finally-hits-mark#

"(Israeli Foreign Mimnister) Livni is recorded confirming what Palestinians have always accused Israeli governments of doing: creating facts on the ground to prevent the possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza."

When Mr Erekat asked Ms Livni: "Short of your jet fighters in my sky and your army on my territory, can I choose where I secure external defence?". She replied: "No. In order to create your state you have to agree in advance with Israel – you have to choose not to have the right of choice afterwards. These are the basic pillars."

"Israel takes more land [so] that the Palestinian state will be impossible . . . the Israel policy is to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that is impossible, we already have the land and we cannot create the state". She conceded that it had been "the policy of the government for a really long time".

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 22, 2012, 03:19:07 PM
Might have to revise my opinion of him.

Real Madrid iconic forward Cristiano Ronaldo has donated €1.5 million to Palestinian children in Gaza, the Arabic version of the club's Classico network reports. The star forward gave his Golden Boot which he earned in 2011 to the Real Madrid foundation. The Spanish giants in their turn sold it at auction and will now donate the funds to schools in Gaza According to various reports, the Real Madrid Foundation has helped to build 167 schools in 66 countries. It's not the first time Ronaldo has given to Gaza.
Last year he sold most of his sports shoes at a Real Madrid Foundation auction which was also dedicated to raising funds for schools in Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 22, 2012, 06:26:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 01:56:30 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 22, 2012, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 01:05:20 PM
By all means condemn Hamas- they kill people too, they aren't always particularly tolerant - but they haven't ruined the lives of 5 million Jews the way the Israeli government has in the case of the palestinians.
Most Israelis don't want to know what they have done to Gaza. They don't want to accept the reality of Israeli state violence.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/gaza-requiem-six-remarks-on-image-perceptions-and-four-dead-palestinian-children.premium-1.479828

But there is a Reuters picture that I wish I hadn't seen. I looked at it, almost by accident, and it has been seared into my memory ever since. It shows 6 year old Jamal Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 4 year old Yousef Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 7 year old Sarah Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, and one year old Ibrahim Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, all lying together, faces bruised, eyes closed, breaths extinguished, on a steel gurney in a Gaza morgue.
They were killed in an air force bombing raid in what Israel says - and I am absolutely convinced - was a regrettable human error.
But most Israelis haven't seen this picture. They wouldn't want to, even if they could. They may have heard of, but they certainly haven't devoted too much attention to, the killing of the 8 members of the al-Dalu family. Many of them were harshly critical of Haaretz for having chosen to devote a main headline to their demise.

The ordinary Israeli people are the ones who need to see the pictures. While they have their own dead they will not ask questions and while Hamas fire rockets the Generals in Tel Aviv can paint the picture of the big bad ogre who needs to be exterminated.

While Hamas terrorism goes un-condemned the Generals know their high tech terrorism cannot be fully condemned and that those who condone one act of terrorism while condemning another can be painted as Anti-semites.

Who is supposed to condemn Hamas? The Arabs ? 

The whole terrorism/ moral army framing of the conflict is bullshit. As is the anti Zionist= antisemite argument.
Palestinians have their homes demolished because they aren't Jewish. The Israeli approach to the conflict
is utterly amoral. And it makes Jewish ethics more or less redundant.

What difference would it make anyway if Hamas was condemned? Would it change Israel?
Would Israel stop building settlements ?


http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/27/erekat-finally-hits-mark#

"(Israeli Foreign Mimnister) Livni is recorded confirming what Palestinians have always accused Israeli governments of doing: creating facts on the ground to prevent the possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza."

When Mr Erekat asked Ms Livni: "Short of your jet fighters in my sky and your army on my territory, can I choose where I secure external defence?". She replied: "No. In order to create your state you have to agree in advance with Israel – you have to choose not to have the right of choice afterwards. These are the basic pillars."

"Israel takes more land [so] that the Palestinian state will be impossible . . . the Israel policy is to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that is impossible, we already have the land and we cannot create the state". She conceded that it had been "the policy of the government for a really long time".

Anyone with respect for rules of war and who detests the targeting of civilians should condemn Hamas and at the same time Israel. That does not take from the fact that Israel is a murderous rogue state which treats the people of Gaza like dogs in a ghetto. However, if you are unable to be balanced and critical of both sides when their is cause to be then your opinion is worthless and counter productive.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on November 22, 2012, 09:10:38 PM
GHD or anyone else that works in the besieged Gaza strip, my wife and I are trying to find out the name of these two children in the picture. Both there parents were murdered by the IDF. Any help would be appreciated.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/BALLINTOY/302877_139839919496359_433330025_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Nally Stand on November 23, 2012, 09:42:30 AM
Israel has broken the truce already. A 20 year old Palestinian has been murdered and another 10 injured by the IDF in Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 23, 2012, 09:49:03 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 23, 2012, 09:42:30 AM
Israel has broken the truce already. A 20 year old Palestinian has been murdered and another 10 injured by the IDF in Gaza.
Colonialism is always the same. The infected blankets, the Treaty of Limerick, the word  of a Zionist.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 23, 2012, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 23, 2012, 09:42:30 AM
Israel has broken the truce already. A 20 year old Palestinian has been murdered and another 10 injured by the IDF in Gaza.

Damn.  Where was this reported and is there a link?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: johnneycool on November 23, 2012, 10:13:15 AM
bbc have it up now, you'd need to go looking for it..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20461914 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20461914)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 23, 2012, 11:06:09 AM
QuoteThe Israel Defense Forces (IDF) confirmed only that it had fired "warning shots" after seeing a group walking towards the border fence.  .....  Eyewitnesses said the group were farmers but the Israelis said they had been marching towards the border as if staging a protest.

Montgomery Alabama 2012.  I dispair.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 23, 2012, 11:38:55 AM
I have just been catching up there now on the news. Seems that the farmers were on their own land on the Gaza side of the fence and they were shot. There is a video of the shooting, but due to the internet connection I have on the boat, I can't see it.

I havn't watched this link, but see if it works. 
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3527230439348

In the past, Israel has broken over 75% of agreed cease fires, and today is no different. Sasly though, the media always forgets these matters......

Considering over 50% of Israel are against the ceasefire, it wouldn't surprise me if the stir things up again. They will sink lower than a snakes belly for political (or land) gain

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 23, 2012, 01:28:02 PM
Reports say they were trying to put an Hamas flag on the security fence. Thats all the trigger happy scumbags in the IDF need to justify murdering someone.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 23, 2012, 01:33:39 PM
It's a concentration camp fence in reality.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 23, 2012, 01:35:26 PM
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d83ec1e-33ec-11e2-9ce7-00144feabdc0.html


November 22, 2012 6:39 pm

Winning wars will not make Israel safe

By Philip Stephens

Amid the upheaval of the Arab uprisings, there have been a couple of constants in the Middle East. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's regime in Iran is still defying international pressure over its nuclear programme; and Benjamin Netanyahu's Israeli government is attempting to scupper any prospect of a two-state accord with the Palestinians.

Israel's escalation of the conflict in Gaza can be seen as a simple act of deterrence: every nation has the right to defend itself. Mr Netanyahu's record suggests more complicated motives. He is fighting an election; and he wants to forestall any effort by Barack Obama's administration to restart peace negotiations. This summer Mr Obama vetoed an Israeli attack on Iran. Mr Netanyahu does not intend to give ground on Palestine.







The effect of Israeli attacks on Gaza has been to underpin Hamas's legitimacy across the Arab world and to weaken Mahmoud Abbas's Palestinian Authority. Not so long ago the Israeli government was talking, albeit through the Egyptians, to Ahmed Al-Jabari, the head of Hamas's military organisation. By killing Mr Al-Jabari, it created another martyr to Palestinian radicalism. Mr Abbas, sidelined by Israel's colonisation of the West Bank, struggles to seem relevant.

This is of a piece with the reactionary world view of the Israeli prime minister. Almost everything has changed in the Middle East; Mr Netanyahu has not. He lives in the shadow of a war hero brother, who perished during the Israeli rescue of hostages at Entebbe, and a father who believed Arabs would never make peace with Jews. As long as Hamas can be cast as terrorists, Mr Netanyahu can refuse to talk peace. The unspoken delusion is that Israel's security can be forever underwritten by military victories.

Even before the Arab uprisings the strategy had run out of road. Ehud Olmert, Mr Netanyahu's predecessor, also waged war on Hamas in an effort to show it would pay a heavy price for terror attacks. Mr Olmert, however, had also begun to understand that military might was not enough. He concluded that durable security depended on facing up to the decision Israel had long avoided: a negotiated withdrawal from the Palestinian territories. "The time has come to say these things," Mr Olmert remarked during the dying months of his premiership.

Mr Netanyahu is creating facts on the ground intended to defy this strategic logic. His settlement policy has left the West Bank resembling nothing so much as a Bantustan from South Africa's apartheid era. You hear his supporters say that it will soon be impossible for any Israeli leader to hand back the land.

All the while, Israel is running out of friends. Hamas hails from the same Islamist family as Mohamed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Not so long ago the US shunned contact with the Brotherhood. This week Mr Obama praised Mr Morsi for his leadership in brokering the Gaza ceasefire.

Turkey, once a close partner, is as hostile to the present government as is any Arab state. The leaders across Europe who this week affirmed Israel's right to defend itself did so through gritted teeth. Even Tony Blair, who as an international envoy to the region has never strayed far from Mr Netanyahu, seems to think it is time to talk to Hamas.

Mr Netanyahu draws a link between Palestine and Iran's nuclear programme. He says Israel can consider peace only when the US has dealt with the threat from an Iranian bomb. Logic runs in the opposite direction. International pressure cannot properly be mobilised against Tehran until the west shakes off the charge of double standards.

The parallel with Iran is anyway an uncomfortable one. Ayatollah Khamenei is a fellow reactionary. He shares Mr Netanyahu's view that military force is the sole source of security. Tehran sees a nuclear capability as an insurance policy against outside threats. The only hope of persuading the regime to forsake the bomb lies in a US offer of security guarantees.

Mr Obama's response to the latest crisis was to send Hillary Clinton, the outgoing secretary of state, to the region. The US president cannot stop there. His visit to Asia this week was another reminder of the pivot towards the Pacific – the US hope that it can shed responsibilities elsewhere to concentrate diplomatic and military resources in east Asia. The flare-up in Gaza was a reminder that some responsibilities cannot be shirked.

During his first term Mr Obama blinked in the face of Mr Netanyahu's intransigence. He took advice from officials who said that the US could never challenge Israel.

What is required now is American leadership – a decision by the White House to set out the parameters for a settlement and to seek broad regional and international support for them. The elements are familiar enough: a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders with agreed land swaps; unbreakable security guarantees for Israel and its recognition across the Arab world; and a shared capital in Jerusalem. Past Israeli leaders have accepted this as a fair template. If Mr Netanyahu rejects it, he must explain why.

The time has also come for Europeans to leave the sidelines. Instead of whispering behind their hands, they should say publicly what they agree privately. After all, they need do no more than take Mr Olmert's script: Israel's security and democracy cannot indefinitely survive the subjugation of Palestinians. One way to start would be to offer European backing for Palestinian statehood at the UN. If there is a single lesson from the tumultuous events of the past few years, it is that the era of the armed reactionary is coming to a close.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on November 23, 2012, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 22, 2012, 06:26:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 01:56:30 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 22, 2012, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 22, 2012, 01:05:20 PM
By all means condemn Hamas- they kill people too, they aren't always particularly tolerant - but they haven't ruined the lives of 5 million Jews the way the Israeli government has in the case of the palestinians.
Most Israelis don't want to know what they have done to Gaza. They don't want to accept the reality of Israeli state violence.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/gaza-requiem-six-remarks-on-image-perceptions-and-four-dead-palestinian-children.premium-1.479828

But there is a Reuters picture that I wish I hadn't seen. I looked at it, almost by accident, and it has been seared into my memory ever since. It shows 6 year old Jamal Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 4 year old Yousef Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, 7 year old Sarah Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, and one year old Ibrahim Mohammed Jamal al-Dalu, all lying together, faces bruised, eyes closed, breaths extinguished, on a steel gurney in a Gaza morgue.
They were killed in an air force bombing raid in what Israel says - and I am absolutely convinced - was a regrettable human error.
But most Israelis haven't seen this picture. They wouldn't want to, even if they could. They may have heard of, but they certainly haven't devoted too much attention to, the killing of the 8 members of the al-Dalu family. Many of them were harshly critical of Haaretz for having chosen to devote a main headline to their demise.

The ordinary Israeli people are the ones who need to see the pictures. While they have their own dead they will not ask questions and while Hamas fire rockets the Generals in Tel Aviv can paint the picture of the big bad ogre who needs to be exterminated.

While Hamas terrorism goes un-condemned the Generals know their high tech terrorism cannot be fully condemned and that those who condone one act of terrorism while condemning another can be painted as Anti-semites.

Who is supposed to condemn Hamas? The Arabs ? 

The whole terrorism/ moral army framing of the conflict is bullshit. As is the anti Zionist= antisemite argument.
Palestinians have their homes demolished because they aren't Jewish. The Israeli approach to the conflict
is utterly amoral. And it makes Jewish ethics more or less redundant.

What difference would it make anyway if Hamas was condemned? Would it change Israel?
Would Israel stop building settlements ?


http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/27/erekat-finally-hits-mark#

"(Israeli Foreign Mimnister) Livni is recorded confirming what Palestinians have always accused Israeli governments of doing: creating facts on the ground to prevent the possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza."

When Mr Erekat asked Ms Livni: "Short of your jet fighters in my sky and your army on my territory, can I choose where I secure external defence?". She replied: "No. In order to create your state you have to agree in advance with Israel – you have to choose not to have the right of choice afterwards. These are the basic pillars."

"Israel takes more land [so] that the Palestinian state will be impossible . . . the Israel policy is to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that is impossible, we already have the land and we cannot create the state". She conceded that it had been "the policy of the government for a really long time".

Anyone with respect for rules of war and who detests the targeting of civilians should condemn Hamas and at the same time Israel. That does not take from the fact that Israel is a murderous rogue state which treats the people of Gaza like dogs in a ghetto. However, if you are unable to be balanced and critical of both sides when their is cause to be then your opinion is worthless and counter productive.

Well put Sir, that said the rules of war are never followed by anybody.

Both are at fault but Israel needs to be reigned in and Obama needs to grow a pair and set them straight on a few things!!! Enough of this shite.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: orangeman on November 25, 2012, 11:37:23 PM
There's a couple of good photos in this montage  -

http://www.rte.ie/news/galleries/2012/1123/the-week-in-pictures-gallery.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 130 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 26, 2012, 04:11:18 PM
A Palestinian man on Monday died of wounds sustained in an Israeli strike that killed two of his relatives on the first day of Israel's military offensive on the Gaza Strip.

Ahmad Ali Masharawi sustained major burns when an Israeli missile hit his garden in Gaza City on Nov. 14. His infant nephew, 11-month-old, Omar Masharawi, was killed immediately, as was his pregnant sister-in-law Hiba Mashharawi Turk.

BBC correspondent Paul Danahar wrote on Twitter that Ahmad Masharawi had been trying to carry Omar to safety when the house was hit engulfing them both in flames.

Omar's father and Ahmad's brother is BBC employee Jihad Masharawi, whose image cradling his dead son became a symbol of the conflict.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=542043
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 26, 2012, 04:26:46 PM
Is the truce holding up? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 26, 2012, 05:02:50 PM
At this stage, Israel have violated the truce 4 times, killing one man and seriously injuring several others.

Talks are ongoing today in Egypt between Hamas and Israel in order to iron out further details.

Click on this link for news on the retirement of Ehud Barak who has taken the fall for what has been seen in Israel as a defeat.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/barak-the-great-hope-that-turned-into-a-bitter-disappointment.premium-1.480714/barak-the-great-hope-that-turned-into-a-bitter-disappointment.premium-1.480714
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 27, 2012, 08:15:32 AM
Britain ready to back Palestinian bid for statehood at UN

Britain is prepared to back a key vote recognising Palestinian statehood at the United Nations if Mahmoud Abbas pledges not to pursue Israel for war crimes and to resume peace talks.

Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, has called for Britain's backing in part because of its historic responsibility for Palestine. The government has previously refused, citing strong US and Israeli objections and fears of long-term damage to prospects for negotiations.

On Monday night, the government signalled it would change tack and vote yes if the Palestinians modified their application, which is to be debated by the UN general assembly in New York later this week. As a "non-member state", Palestine would have the same status as the Vatican.


Whitehall officials said the Palestinians were now being asked to refrain from applying for membership of the international criminal court or the international court of justice, which could both be used to pursue war crimes charges or other legal claims against Israel.

Abbas is also being asked to commit to an immediate resumption of peace talks "without preconditions" with Israel. The third condition is that the general assembly's resolution does not require the UN security council to follow suit.

The US and Israel have both hinted at possible retaliation if the vote goes ahead. Congress could block payments to the Palestinian Authority and Israel might freeze tax revenues it transfers under the 1993 Oslo agreement or, worse, withdraw from the agreement altogether. It could also annex West Bank settlements. Britain's position is that it wants to reduce the risk that such threats might be implemented and bolster Palestinian moderates.

France has already signalled that it will vote yes on Thursday, and the long-awaited vote is certain to pass as 132 UN members have recognised the state of Palestine. Decisions by Germany, Spain and Britain are still pending and Palestinians would clearly prefer a united EU position as counterweight to the US.

Willian Hague, the foreign secretary, discussed the issue on Monday with Abbas and the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, offiicals said.

Palestinian sources said Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, raised the issue with Abbas at his Ramallah headquarters last week, shortly before a ceasefire was agreed in the Gaza Strip, as had Tony Blair, the Quartet envoy.


Abbas has been widely seen to have been sidelined by his rivals in the Islamist movement Hamas, as well by his failure to win any concessions from Israel. Abbas, whose remit does not extend beyond the West Bank, hopes a strong yes vote will persuade Israel to return to talks after more than two years.

Officals in Ramallah have opposed surrendering on the ICC issue so it can be used as a bargaining chip in future, but views are thought to be divided. Abbas said at the weekend: "We are going to the UN fully confident in our steps. We will have our rights because you are with us."

Leila Shaid, Palestine's representative to the EU, said: "After everything that has happened in the Arab spring, Britain can't pretend it is in favour of democracy in Libya, Syria and Egypt but accept the Palestinians continuing to live under occupation. As the former colonial power, Britain has a historic responsibility to Palestine. Britain is a very important country in the Middle East, it has extensive trade relations, and David Cameron should know he risks a popular backlash from Arab public opinion if he does not support us."

Palestinians have rejected the claim that they are acting unilaterally, calling the UN path "the ultimate expression of multilateralism". Israel's apparent opposition to unilateralism has not stopped it acting without agreement to build and expand settlements, they say.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media 2012
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 27, 2012, 09:26:56 AM
Better news for a change.  Here's hoping.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on November 27, 2012, 11:03:40 AM
So there are now only 3 "rogue states" left in the World- U.S, Israel and North Korea.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2012, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 27, 2012, 08:15:32 AM
Britain ready to back Palestinian bid for statehood at UN

Britain is prepared to back a key vote recognising Palestinian statehood at the United Nations if Mahmoud Abbas pledges not to pursue Israel for war crimes and to resume peace talks.

Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, has called for Britain's backing in part because of its historic responsibility for Palestine. The government has previously refused, citing strong US and Israeli objections and fears of long-term damage to prospects for negotiations.

On Monday night, the government signalled it would change tack and vote yes if the Palestinians modified their application, which is to be debated by the UN general assembly in New York later this week. As a "non-member state", Palestine would have the same status as the Vatican.


Whitehall officials said the Palestinians were now being asked to refrain from applying for membership of the international criminal court or the international court of justice, which could both be used to pursue war crimes charges or other legal claims against Israel.

Abbas is also being asked to commit to an immediate resumption of peace talks "without preconditions" with Israel. The third condition is that the general assembly's resolution does not require the UN security council to follow suit.

The US and Israel have both hinted at possible retaliation if the vote goes ahead. Congress could block payments to the Palestinian Authority and Israel might freeze tax revenues it transfers under the 1993 Oslo agreement or, worse, withdraw from the agreement altogether. It could also annex West Bank settlements. Britain's position is that it wants to reduce the risk that such threats might be implemented and bolster Palestinian moderates.

France has already signalled that it will vote yes on Thursday, and the long-awaited vote is certain to pass as 132 UN members have recognised the state of Palestine. Decisions by Germany, Spain and Britain are still pending and Palestinians would clearly prefer a united EU position as counterweight to the US.

Willian Hague, the foreign secretary, discussed the issue on Monday with Abbas and the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, offiicals said.

Palestinian sources said Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, raised the issue with Abbas at his Ramallah headquarters last week, shortly before a ceasefire was agreed in the Gaza Strip, as had Tony Blair, the Quartet envoy.


Abbas has been widely seen to have been sidelined by his rivals in the Islamist movement Hamas, as well by his failure to win any concessions from Israel. Abbas, whose remit does not extend beyond the West Bank, hopes a strong yes vote will persuade Israel to return to talks after more than two years.

Officals in Ramallah have opposed surrendering on the ICC issue so it can be used as a bargaining chip in future, but views are thought to be divided. Abbas said at the weekend: "We are going to the UN fully confident in our steps. We will have our rights because you are with us."

Leila Shaid, Palestine's representative to the EU, said: "After everything that has happened in the Arab spring, Britain can't pretend it is in favour of democracy in Libya, Syria and Egypt but accept the Palestinians continuing to live under occupation. As the former colonial power, Britain has a historic responsibility to Palestine. Britain is a very important country in the Middle East, it has extensive trade relations, and David Cameron should know he risks a popular backlash from Arab public opinion if he does not support us."

Palestinians have rejected the claim that they are acting unilaterally, calling the UN path "the ultimate expression of multilateralism". Israel's apparent opposition to unilateralism has not stopped it acting without agreement to build and expand settlements, they say.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media 2012
The Palestinians should sue Israel's ass for war crimes.
The hypocrisy of the chosen people needs to be exposed.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Lar Naparka on November 27, 2012, 11:43:43 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 26, 2012, 04:26:46 PM
Is the truce holding up?

I can't see the truce lasting as it's not in Israel's best interests to maintain it. Nethanyahu and his supporters started the latest conflict in order to boost their electoral chances and it appears that they have failed dismally in this.
The widespread perception is that the Gazans came off better in this instance and I'm sure the Israeli hawks are itching for an excuse to have another go to recover lost prestige if nothing else.
Some folks never learn.....
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2012, 01:20:47 PM

Israel-U.S. effort to soften wording of Palestinian UN bid has failed, official says



http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-u-s-effort-to-soften-wording-of-palestinian-un-bid-has-failed-official-says.premium-1.480931

Israeli official says senior PA negotiator Saeb Erekat refuses U.S. request to discuss UN bid; Washington seeks to alter proposal's wording in order to minimize the political fallout.

By Barak Ravid | Nov.27, 2012 | 1:59 PM | 3

By Barak Ravid | Nov.27,2012 | 1:59 PM | 39


Israel, U.S. hold secret talks on softening Palestinian Authority's UN bid

By Barak Ravid | Nov.27,2012 | 1:59 PM | 11



American-Israeli efforts to soften the wording of the proposed United Nations General Assembly resolution regarding the recognition of a Palestinian state has failed, an Israeli official said on Tuesday.

Haaretz has learned that the push did not succeed because the Palestinians refused to add a clause to the draft that would prevent them from filing criminal charges against Israeli officials at the International Criminal Court in The Hague. The General Assembly was due to vote on the proposal on Thursday.

The Palestinians distributed the final draft of the General Assembly resolution early on Wednesday morning in New York and are refusing to pursue any further discussions on the matter.

Over the past two days, the United States has made attempts to alter the wording of the resolution in order to minimize the political damage that will likely result from the General Assembly vote, in which the Palestinians are expected to garner a large majority.

Earlier Tuesday, Haaretz reported that Israel had joined the American effort, and that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sent his special envoy, lawyer Isaac Molho, to Washington on Sunday to work on the issue along with senior Obama administration officials.

A senior Israeli official involved in the international contacts to soften the wording of the resolution stated that the effort was too little, too late and had ended in failure. In his words, senior Obama administration officials contacted the chief of the Palestinian negotiating team Saeb Erekat on Wednesday and asked him to come to Washington urgently in order to negotiate the wording of the resolution, but Erekat refused.

"Erekat told the Americans that he didn't have any time and that he would speak with them after the [General Assembly] vote," said the senior Israeli official.

At the center of Palestinian steadfast refusal to alter the resolution draft lies the demand that a clause be inserted into the resolution stating that the Palestinians would not approach the ICC in order to file charges against Israeli officials.

The United Kingdom has made it clear to the Palestinians that it will support their measure in the United Nations if they provide guarantees that they will not seek to file criminal charges against Israeli officials with the ICC. The British did not state whether they were requesting oral or written guarantees from the Palestinians.

The Palestinians made it clear to the U.S. and several prominent European Union member states that they are only prepared to provide an oral guarantee that they will not seek to file charges with the ICC for a temporary period of approximately half a year. After the end of this period, they stated, they would consider themselves no longer bound by this guarantee.

After responding negatively to American efforts to alter the wording of the resolution, the Palestinian delegation to the UN in New York distributed a final draft of the resolution proposal that is contained below. In this draft, which in any event is phrased in general and relatively moderate terms, some minor changes were inserted in response to requests made by some European countries. The principal change was the emphasis placed on the necessity of the immediate renewal of the peace process with Israel.

5. The General Assembly expresses the urgent need for the resumption and acceleration of negotiations within the Middle East peace process, based on the relevant United Nations resolutions, the Madrid terms of reference, including the principle of land for peace, the Arab Peace Initiative and the Quartet Roadmap, for the achievement of a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement between the Palestinian and Israeli sides that resolves all outstanding core issues, namely the Palestine refugees, Jerusalem, settlements, borders, security and water.

Also included in the resolution draft was a clause stating:

4. The General Assembly affirms its determination to contribute to the achievement of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and the attainment of a peaceful settlement in the Middle East that ends the occupation that began in l967 and fulfills the vision of two States, an independent, sovereign, democratic, contiguous and viable State of Palestine, living side by side in peace and security with Israel, on the basis of the pre-1967 borders.


According to the final draft of the resolution, the GA will state that it grants to Palestine the status of an observer nation that isn't a full member of the UN. The resolution will establish that the designation of this status to Palestine will not harm in any manner either the position or rights of the Palestine Liberation Organization as the representative of the Palestinian people in the framework of the UN.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 28, 2012, 06:44:58 PM
Palestinians say UN bid is last-ditch peace effort

By By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press – 40 minutes ago 

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — A bid for U.N. recognition of a state of Palestine is a last-ditch attempt to rescue troubled Mideast peace efforts, a Palestinian spokeswoman said Wednesday, rejecting Israel's charge that it is an attempt to bypass negotiations.

Hanan Ashrawi, a senior Palestinian official, urged the U.S. to drop its opposition to the bid, dismissing Washington's stance as "pathetic" and harmful to American interests in the region. The Palestinians have come under intense pressure from the U.S., Britain and others to modify the bid but "have not succumbed," she said.

On Thursday, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas plans to ask the U.N. General Assembly to recognize Palestine in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, areas Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 but still controls most access.

The Palestinians expect some two-thirds of the General Assembly's 193 members will accept Palestine as a non-member observer state. The U.S., Israel, Canada and a few others are opposed.

The vote will not change the situation on the ground, yet the Palestinians still say it is significant.
Abbas has said U.N. recognition is not meant to replace negotiations with Israel, but to improve Palestinian leverage and secure the pre-1967 war frontiers as the baseline for future border talks — an idea Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected.

This does not mean the U.N. vote will pave the way for a quick resumption of talks, which broke down four years ago.

Abbas has said he will not negotiate as long as Israel keeps expanding settlements on war-won land. Half a million Israelis now live in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, blurring the 1967 lines.
Beyond a 10-month partial halt in 2009 that failed to restart sustained peace talks, Netanyahu has refused to freeze construction in settlements.

Abbas aides have given conflicting accounts of whether U.N. recognition of "Palestine" would soften his demands for a settlement freeze ahead of any negotiations.

Referring to Israeli settlement building, Ashrawi said Wednesday that the U.N. bid "is a last-ditch effort, because we believe the two-state solution (a Palestinian state alongside Israel) is in jeopardy as a result of these actions."

She said if the U.S. "can't vote yes, at least don't vote no, because that would be seen as being really pathetic by the rest of the world."

Deputy U.S. Secretary of State William Burns met with Abbas Wednesday at his New York hotel in a last-minute attempt to halt the U.N. bid, Abbas aide Saeb Erekat said.

Burns told Abbas that the U.N. vote goes against U.S. interests and President Barack Obama would make a new push in 2013 to see a Palestinian state formed through negotiations, Erekat said.

Burns "asked President Abbas to change his mind," the aide said.
Abbas told Burns that the vote would take place on Thursday, as planned, Erekat said.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev dismissed the U.N. quest as futile, saying only negotiations with Israel can bring about a Palestinian state.

"They can get pieces of paper from the U.N., but they are not going to move peace forward, they are not going to make a Palestinian statehood more real," he said.

"They boycott Israel. They refuse to talk to us. Who do they plan to make peace with?" he said.
Surveys indicate most Palestinians have become disillusioned with prospects of setting up a state through negotiations. Two decades of talks have failed to produce results, marred by intransigence and repeated bouts of violence.

The vote comes at an important time domestically for Abbas, who has watched his political rival, the Islamic militant group Hamas, gain popularity, particularly after holding its own during an Israeli offensive on Hamas-ruled Gaza earlier this month. The military action was aimed at stopping almost daily rocket barrages from the Gaza Strip at southern Israel.

Hamas, which seized control of Gaza from Abbas in 2007, argues that negotiations with Israel are a waste of time, but Hamas leaders have come out in support of the U.N. bid in recent days.

During Israel's Gaza offensive, Abbas was largely sidelined at his compound in the West Bank, underscoring international concerns that the deadlock in peace efforts is increasingly weakening him and other Palestinian pragmatists.

Abbas aides have said they expect key European countries to support the U.N. bid in an attempt to strengthen Abbas.

France, Spain, Norway, Denmark and Switzerland have pledged support. Germany said it would not support the initiative, while Britain's foreign secretary said his government would not oppose it. He said Britain would only vote in favor if the Palestinians softened some of the language.

Israel appeared to be backing away from plans to immediately punish the Palestinians for going to the U.N. Instead, an Israeli government official said Israel would wait to see whether the Palestinians would use the world body's expected approval to hurt Israel.

The Palestinians plan to seek membership or access to a number of international and U.N. agencies, including the International Criminal Court, once their statehood bid is approved.

Israel would respond "forcefully" if the Palestinians try to pursue war crimes charges against Israel at the ICC, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss policy considerations. If the Palestinians use their upgraded international status "as a tool to confront Israel in the international arena, there will be a response."

Until then, he said, Israel will be bound by its obligations to the Palestinians under existing peace agreements, but won't necessarily go beyond them. Earlier there was talk of Israel's retaliating by canceling the partial peace accords.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2012, 07:34:59 PM
We'll see tomorrow how many countries around the world support the right of Jews to settle the West Bank and pretend they own the place. 


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-won-t-punish-palestinians-for-un-statehood-bid.premium-1.480997#


Israeli ambassadors worldwide have been instructed to pressure every country to publish an announcement, regardless of how they will vote, emphasizing that the borders of the Palestinian state and the other core issues will be decided only by direct negotiations with Israel. The ambassadors have been asked to demand that the announcements will acknowledge that this symbolic decision does not change facts on the ground and does not recognize Palestinian sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or East Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on November 28, 2012, 09:15:25 PM
In other words the whole world is out of step except the rogue State of Israel  >:(
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 29, 2012, 05:20:35 AM
An Israel that opposes the UN resolution is an Israel that wants to strengthen Hamas and a return of terror.

By Gideon Levy | Nov.29, 2012 | 1:27 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/november-29.premium-1.481277#.ULbribHTrMM.facebook

The writer Amos Oz recalls that day, 65 years ago, in his novel "A Tale of Love and Darkness": "On Saturday morning, they said, the General Assembly would convene at a place called Lake Success and there they would determine our fate. 'Who is for life and who for destruction,' said Mr. Abramski."

Abramski was right. If he were alive today, he would have similar things to say about want will happen tonight in the UN General Assembly. Who is for life and who for destruction. If Israel was a wise and reasonable country, it would have to join the family of nations this evening, not including Micronesia, and vote proudly for the completion of the previous vote on November 29: two states for two peoples. And if there were a real peace camp in Israel, its members would flock en masse to the tiny rally being held in front of Independence Hall in Tel Aviv, where this State of Israel was declared.

But Israel, as usual, says no. First, hurling childish threats, with unparalleled chutzpah, bullying and condescension: we'll punish the Palestinian Authority; we'll hit it in its pocket; we'll build 3,000 apartments in the settlements. And now, in a weaker voice, we're "lowering our profile." And no is still no.

When Israel says no, what does it mean? That the talk of two states is one big fraud; that it simply doesn't want peace; that the world can go jump in a lake; that the Palestinians are forbidden to fight for their freedom, either with weapons or with diplomacy; no to Hamas and no to PA President Mahmoud Abbas. No, and no. Jerusalem's thousand nos.

Israel will say no tonight, not just to the Palestinians, but to the whole world, except its patron, the United States, which will apparently humiliate itself again and draw even more hatred by voting automatically with Israel. Most Israelis will not even ask themselves how we reached the point at which the entire world really is against us; whether, perhaps, Israel has some part in it, to which voting against the resolution will only add.

"The automatic majority," as Israel disparagingly calls the sane majority in the United Nations, will vote for recognition of Palestine as a nonmember state. Because that is the right and necessary step to take; Israeli propagandizing word play will not help. "A unilateral step," Israel, in its temerity, calls it, while Israel builds more and more settlements in a step that is anything but multilateral. "A breach of the Oslo Accords," Israel accuses, although Israel never met its obligation for the "third phase," which was to have transferred most of the West Bank to Palestinian control 15 years ago.

An Israel that opposes the UN resolution is an Israel that wants to strengthen Hamas and a return of terror. There is no other way to explain its intransigence. But of all its baseless and foolish reasons for its opposition, one stands out: the danger that, after their change of status in the UN, the Palestinians will supposedly appeal to the International Criminal Court in The Hague regarding the war crime of moving the population of the occupying state into the occupied territories.

What exactly is Israel afraid of? After all, Retired Justice Edmond Levy will make it alright. In fact, he already has: the committee he headed has already determined that there is no occupation at all and the settlements are completely kosher. And so what is there to fear? Could it be that despite the acclaimed Levy report, there is something to worry about? After all, the International Criminal Court fights war crimes and is esteemed by the whole world. On the contrary, let Israel send retired Justice Levy to that court to present Israel's justified and persuasive arguments.

Mr. Abramski is long dead. So is Mrs. Tosia Krochmal, the neighbor of the young Amos on Amos Street in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Kerem Avraham who, 65 years ago, brought the extension cord from the sewing machine in her husband's doll hospital to the Lembergs' house, so they could bring their heavy black radio out to their balcony, to hear the "voices of Lake Success." This evening, no one will be listening to the radio. Israel will continue to bury its head in the sand, to disconnect from reality, to ignore the world, ignore justice and proclaim: No.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: glens abu on November 29, 2012, 09:35:52 AM
Well thats the Irish on their way to Gaza...... the generosity of the irish people again has been wonderful, this team of 13 women and men are heading to gaza to both build and strengthen links with the youth of gaza among others. We have seen just a glimpse of the daily sufferings the palestinian have to endure at the hands of the terrorist goverment and forces of israel and how they have defended their land and familys, Irish friends of Palestine will be meeting Palestinians from all walks of life and i know they will carry the message from us all here in Ireland that we are with them, we will be their voice when the world continues to ignore them... So good luck to Irish delegation, especially my friends MaryKate Quinn, Sinead MacLochlainn Phil Mc Cullough John Mallon Gerry MacLochlainn and Daithi Mac Giolla Mhaoil , there are no better people who are representative of the Irish....also a big fundraising night in the P.D this Saturday for Irish Medical Aid for Palestine helping to buy much needed medical equipment in labour wards and theatres in Gaza.. please show your support and come along..... Tiocfaidh ar Palestine

SF have organised street collections between 1pm and 3pm on Sat for Medical aid for Palestine and also holding a function in the PD club Belfast on Sat night,all welcome.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: glens abu on November 29, 2012, 01:16:17 PM
Sinn Féin MLA's to visit GazaNovember 29, 2012

Sinn Féin MLA's Pat Sheehan and Caitriona Ruane are to travel to Gaza this week as part of a European parliamentarian delegation. The purpose of the visit is to witness  first hand the situation in Gaza following eight days of intensive naval and aerial bombardment by Israeli forces.

Speaking ahead of the visit Mr Sheehan said:

"The impact on Gaza following a week of severe bombardment by Israeli forces is dramatic. It further compounds the destruction of infrastructure including roads, schools, hospitals, sanitation works and government buildings that have been destroyed or damaged in the Israeli assault four years ago.

"Given this and the ongoing illegal blockade by Israel which makes it extremely difficult to bring in the materials needed to rebuild this vital infrastructure the situation in Gaza is very serious.

"Myself and Caitriona Ruane will see first hand the damage that was caused indeed the human tragedy. We will meet with a the Al Dalu who lost ten family members when their house was hit by an Israeli missile. We will also meet with local politicians, NGO's and UNRWA."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 29, 2012, 01:50:58 PM
This evenings vote at the UN has taken another few twists and turns, and it now looks like only the United States, Canada, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and possibly the Czech Republic are voting for Israel. I have been very disappointed that in the past few years, Canada under Harper has joined the US stance in unconditional support for Israel.

Israel suffered a defeat in their 8 day "Pillar Of Cloud" attack both in Gaza and in PR damage. Tonight they will suffer another defeat and bar the countries mentioned above, Palestine will finally get some form of recognition from the world. It's the least they deserve after 64 years. There are now major cracks appearing in the Zionist dream, and time will only tell what happens next.

Today is world solidarity day for Palestine, and there is some excitement in Palestine today. It's been a tough couple of weeks, and maybe this vote can put a smile back on the faces of those who suffered for a little while.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/germany-backtracks-on-palestinian-bid-israeli-official-we-lost-europe.premium-1.481392

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian people are enjoying sweeping support in the lead up to Thursday night's vote at the UN General Assembly over whether to upgrade the Palestinians' standing to non-member observer status. By Thursday morning Israel time, that support had turned into a full-on landslide, as more European nations decided to alter their positions, essentially leaving Israel to fend for itself.

Early Thursday morning, just hours before the vote -- scheduled to take place around 11:00 P.M. (Israel time) -- Germany changed its mind, deciding to abstain from voting rather than opposing the Palestinian initiative, as Israel had assumed it would.

"The decision wasn't taken lightly," Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said. "Germany shares the goal for a Palestinian state. We have campaigned for this in many ways, but the recent decisive steps towards real statehood can only be the result of negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians," the German official said.

The UN General Assembly is expected to pass a historic resolution recognizing Palestine within the 1967 borders as a non-member observer state.

At least 150 countries are expected to vote in favor of the resolution. In opposing the resolution, Israel is likely to find itself isolated with the United States, Canada, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and possibly the Czech Republic – although sources at the Foreign Ministry said Germany's decision would likely affect the Czech vote as well.

This, in effect, leaves Israel without any European country supporting it at the international forum. Officials in Israel said that Germany's decision was influenced by Britain. "Britain's dramatic reversal prompted the Germans to change their mind," a Foreign Ministry official said. "We lost Europe. More than half of its countries will vote with the Palestinians, and the rest will abstain."

Bulgaria and Romania, with whom Israel has held intensive discussions in the last day, have also backtracked on their positions, as both intend to abstain. Belgium, meanwhile announced Thursday morning that it will vote in favor of the Palestinians. Belgium's foreign minister Didier Reynders said his UN envoy will stress that his country urges the renewal of negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians.

Speaking in Jerusalem hours before the vote, Prime Minister Netanyahu said the UN General Assembly's recognition of Palestine as a non-member observer state "will not change anything on the ground." Netanyahu denounced the international community and said that, "No matter how many fingers are raised against us, there is no power in the world that can force Israel to compromise on its security."

Netanyahu said the decision will not advance the establishment of a Palestinian state, but rather push it farther away. "Israel's hand is outstretched in peace, but a Palestinian state will not be formed without recognition of Israel as the Jewish state," the prime minister said.

"A Palestinian state will not rise without declaring an end to the conflict and without security arrangements that protect Israel's citizens. None of these issues are mentioned in the UN General Assembly decision. These are just some of the reasons why we are rejecting the proposed resolution."

Netanyahu added: "Peace can only be achieved through direct negotiations without preconditions between the parties, and not through unilateral decisions made at the UN. I suggest we not pay heed to the applause at the UN. I remember when Israel's unilateral disengagement from Gaza received international applause; we got applause and then rockets. Israel withdrew from Gaza and Iran went in. The same exact thing happened when we left Lebanon. As prime minister, I will not allow the growth of another Iranian terror base in Judea and Samaria – the heart of the country – just a kilometer outside of central Jerusalem."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: glens abu on November 29, 2012, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 29, 2012, 01:50:58 PM
This evenings vote at the UN has taken another few twists and turns, and it now looks like only the United States, Canada, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and possibly the Czech Republic are voting for Israel. I have been very disappointed that in the past few years, Canada under Harper has joined the US stance in unconditional support for Israel.

Israel suffered a defeat in their 8 day "Pillar Of Cloud" attack both in Gaza and in PR damage. Tonight they will suffer another defeat and bar the countries mentioned above, Palestine will finally get some form of recognition from the world. It's the least they deserve after 64 years. There are now major cracks appearing in the Zionist dream, and time will only tell what happens next.

Today is world solidarity day for Palestine, and there is some excitement in Palestine today. It's been a tough couple of weeks, and maybe this vote can put a smile back on the faces of those who suffered for a little while.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/germany-backtracks-on-palestinian-bid-israeli-official-we-lost-europe.premium-1.481392

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian people are enjoying sweeping support in the lead up to Thursday night's vote at the UN General Assembly over whether to upgrade the Palestinians' standing to non-member observer status. By Thursday morning Israel time, that support had turned into a full-on landslide, as more European nations decided to alter their positions, essentially leaving Israel to fend for itself.

Early Thursday morning, just hours before the vote -- scheduled to take place around 11:00 P.M. (Israel time) -- Germany changed its mind, deciding to abstain from voting rather than opposing the Palestinian initiative, as Israel had assumed it would.

"The decision wasn't taken lightly," Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said. "Germany shares the goal for a Palestinian state. We have campaigned for this in many ways, but the recent decisive steps towards real statehood can only be the result of negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians," the German official said.

The UN General Assembly is expected to pass a historic resolution recognizing Palestine within the 1967 borders as a non-member observer state.

At least 150 countries are expected to vote in favor of the resolution. In opposing the resolution, Israel is likely to find itself isolated with the United States, Canada, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and possibly the Czech Republic – although sources at the Foreign Ministry said Germany's decision would likely affect the Czech vote as well.

This, in effect, leaves Israel without any European country supporting it at the international forum. Officials in Israel said that Germany's decision was influenced by Britain. "Britain's dramatic reversal prompted the Germans to change their mind," a Foreign Ministry official said. "We lost Europe. More than half of its countries will vote with the Palestinians, and the rest will abstain."

Bulgaria and Romania, with whom Israel has held intensive discussions in the last day, have also backtracked on their positions, as both intend to abstain. Belgium, meanwhile announced Thursday morning that it will vote in favor of the Palestinians. Belgium's foreign minister Didier Reynders said his UN envoy will stress that his country urges the renewal of negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians.

Speaking in Jerusalem hours before the vote, Prime Minister Netanyahu said the UN General Assembly's recognition of Palestine as a non-member observer state "will not change anything on the ground." Netanyahu denounced the international community and said that, "No matter how many fingers are raised against us, there is no power in the world that can force Israel to compromise on its security."

Netanyahu said the decision will not advance the establishment of a Palestinian state, but rather push it farther away. "Israel's hand is outstretched in peace, but a Palestinian state will not be formed without recognition of Israel as the Jewish state," the prime minister said.

"A Palestinian state will not rise without declaring an end to the conflict and without security arrangements that protect Israel's citizens. None of these issues are mentioned in the UN General Assembly decision. These are just some of the reasons why we are rejecting the proposed resolution."

Netanyahu added: "Peace can only be achieved through direct negotiations without preconditions between the parties, and not through unilateral decisions made at the UN. I suggest we not pay heed to the applause at the UN. I remember when Israel's unilateral disengagement from Gaza received international applause; we got applause and then rockets. Israel withdrew from Gaza and Iran went in. The same exact thing happened when we left Lebanon. As prime minister, I will not allow the growth of another Iranian terror base in Judea and Samaria – the heart of the country – just a kilometer outside of central Jerusalem."

Thats good news for a change,maybe the tide is turning at last.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on November 29, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
Please, no more rockets into israel.  Don't give them any excuse.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2012, 04:32:06 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 29, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
Please, no more rockets into israel.  Don't give them any excuse.
This Gaza turkey shoot was different



http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/the-washington-post-s-israel-problem-and-ours.premium-1.481395

From a distance, you might well think nothing's changed. From a distance of 6,000 miles or so, it might elude notice that every single war destroys Israel. Every one, every time. Each war here is a watershed. It leaves an entirely different Israel and different Israelis in its wake.
You can't see it, but this war changed everyone here. Out of view, deep inside, something shifted. For some, it may have been the horrifying sense that this is what we can expect - from the other side and from ourselves as well - every couple of years. Forever. Like hurricanes in Haiti. Bombs, rockets, a new cohort of children with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. And every single time, it comes closer to your own home. Wherever you are.


Maybe Jewish Israelis will eventually understand what the last 65 years have been like for the Palestinians.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 29, 2012, 06:49:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 29, 2012, 04:32:06 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 29, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
Please, no more rockets into israel.  Don't give them any excuse.
This Gaza turkey shoot was different



http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/the-washington-post-s-israel-problem-and-ours.premium-1.481395

From a distance, you might well think nothing's changed. From a distance of 6,000 miles or so, it might elude notice that every single war destroys Israel. Every one, every time. Each war here is a watershed. It leaves an entirely different Israel and different Israelis in its wake.
You can't see it, but this war changed everyone here. Out of view, deep inside, something shifted. For some, it may have been the horrifying sense that this is what we can expect - from the other side and from ourselves as well - every couple of years. Forever. Like hurricanes in Haiti. Bombs, rockets, a new cohort of children with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. And every single time, it comes closer to your own home. Wherever you are.


Maybe Jewish Israelis will eventually understand what the last 65 years have been like for the Palestinians.

Is the last line in your post your own thoughts or from the article?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2012, 08:13:34 PM
 It has been a bad fortnight for Zionism. Tel Aviv hit by missiles from Gaza. A humiliating ceasefire.
The Likud is taken over by extremists.  And now not one of the 27 countries of the EU votes in support of Israeli colonialism at the UN.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on November 29, 2012, 10:06:26 PM
And the voting has taken place, with 138 countries voting for, 9 against and 41 abstentions. Well done Palestine, and the people have something to be happy about tonight. Excellent news, and may this be another blow to the Zionist dream......
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2012, 10:18:37 PM
Zionism is a nightmare.

And the Yanks are a total joke. Like whoever it was at the BBC who protected Jimmy Savile from exposure as a paedo.

All Israel has behind it is Lobby money. If you asked most US senators they probably only do it for the money.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on November 29, 2012, 10:54:54 PM
Looks like America doesn't like democracy too much anymore.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 29, 2012, 10:59:23 PM
Countries that voted against Palestine's UN bid: Canada, Czech Republic, Palau, Nauru, Micronesia, Marshall island, Panama, US, Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on November 30, 2012, 01:05:13 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20415886 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20415886)

An article based on the legalities of war. It uses examples from the recent violence in Gaza and I found it interesting. Some folks might find it useful also, particularly those who asked questions during the violence as to the rights and wrongs and the whodunnit etc etc...

International law regulates the use of military force by states and the conduct of hostilities.

As in virtually every modern conflict, there is intense debate on the legality of the actions of the two sides involved here - Israel and Hamas.

Israel argues that its Operation Pillar of Defence is justified under the right of self-defence. This position has in principle been supported by various countries, including the US and EU member states.

Enshrined in Article 51 of the UN Charter, the right of self-defence is accepted as a fundamental principle of international law. While aspects of this principle are disputed, it is universally agreed that a state can defend itself against an armed attack.

There is some debate as to the intensity that an armed attack should reach before a state can lawfully resort to self-defence. Most international lawyers would agree that rockets launched against civilians that disrupt the social life of part of a country constitute an armed attack for the purposes of Article 51.

Self-defence

A case for self-defence is sometimes contested on factual grounds, for example with the argument that it was the other side that attacked first. In this case, critics of the Israeli position also advance two legal arguments.

First, they argue that the right of self-defence should be invoked only against another state, but not against a non-state entity like Gaza. State practice, especially since the attacks of 11 September 2001, militates against this interpretation of self-defence.


Secondly, some commentators maintain that Gaza is still subject to Israeli occupation because of the ongoing blockade, and that Israel cannot rely on self-defence in an occupied territory. Israel argues against this, pointing to its withdrawal from Gaza in 2005.

In a legal sense, "blockade" and "occupation" are concepts that have been understood in international law as distinct for some time. The conflation of the two is novel, and it runs into logical difficulties when its proponents characterise a ground operation as an "invasion".

The right of self-defence is no blank cheque. International law allows states to defend themselves only with force that is necessary and proportionate.

A common misperception is that proportionality in self-defence means an eye for an eye, a rocket for a rocket, or a casualty for a casualty. This is not so: there is no place in international law for using force in revenge.


"The principle of humanity must however be balanced against the principle of military necessity"

In some cases, a necessary and proportionate response will entail the use of greater military force than was involved in the original attack; in other cases, it will be possible for a country to defend itself effectively with less force.

The principle of self-defence belongs to the body of international law that regulates resort to force or "going to war" (often referred to by the Latin term jus ad bellum, that is "law to war").

The other relevant body of international law regulates the conduct of hostilities once the conflict has started. It is known as the law of armed conflict (or the jus in bello that is "law in war").

International law maintains a strict separation between these two bodies of law.

Starting a war off on the right side of the law does not give a state more rights in the conduct of hostilities than its enemies. It is possible for a state that resorted to force lawfully to commit unlawful acts in the course of an armed conflict - and vice versa.

Humanity

The law of armed conflict also limits the amount of force that states can lawfully use.

It is not easy to establish the facts during or after an armed conflict
A key principle is that of humanity: belligerents should always avoid unnecessary suffering.

The principle of humanity must however be balanced against the principle of military necessity.

The legal manual used by the British armed forces says that military necessity allows a state to use force, unless otherwise prohibited, which is "required in order to achieve the legitimate purpose of the conflict, namely the complete or partial submission of the enemy at the earliest possible moment and with the minimum expenditure of life and resources".

The argument that the Israeli bombardments are ineffective because they have so far failed to completely stop rocket attacks can cut both ways.

Strategically, it may identify a fundamental weakness in the Israeli response and suggest the pursuit of non-forcible alternatives. But, from a military necessity angle, it may justify an escalation in the force that Israel uses so as to achieve the objective of averting the attacks.

Of course, the fact that the law authorises a certain action does not make it wise in a political or strategic sense.

"International law defines military objectives as 'objects which... make an effective contribution to military action... and whose total or partial destruction... offers a definite military advantage'"

Distinction

A cornerstone in the law of armed conflict is the principle of distinction: parties to a conflict must distinguish between combatants and civilians at all times.

Various specific rules flesh out the content of this principle. Attacks on civilians and civilian objects are always banned. Attacks may be conducted against combatants or non-combatants who directly participate in hostilities, and against military objectives.

The principle of distinction also prohibits acts or threats of violence aimed at spreading terror among civilians, as well as attacks carried out with means which by their nature cannot target a specific military objective. The launching of missiles against southern Israel is said to breach distinction.

But when does an object become a legitimate military target?

International law defines military objectives as "objects which... make an effective contribution to military action... and whose total or partial destruction... offers a definite military advantage".

Rocket launchers and ammunition depots are in this category. Problems arise with so-called dual-use targets, such as the Serbian TV station bombed by Nato during the 1999 Kosovo War and the media building targeted by Israel in the course of Operation Pillar of Defence.

Proportionality

What about a building which contains a military objective, such as a rocket launcher, but which also houses civilians?

An accusation levelled against Hamas is that it endangers its own civilians
This example illustrates the importance of another pillar of the law of armed conflict: the principle of proportionality. Whenever there is a risk of loss of civilian life or damage to civilian property, belligerents are required to balance the anticipated military advantage with the risks posed to civilians and their property.

In some cases this may mean - as the former president of the International Court of Justice, Judge Rosalyn Higgins, wrote in one of her judgements - that "even a legitimate target may not be attacked if the collateral civilian casualties would be disproportionate to the specific military gain from the attack".

An attacker is also under a duty to call off an attack immediately if, in the course of it, it realizes that civilians would face excessive risk.

An attacker targeting military objectives in a densely populated area like Gaza must do everything feasible to verify the nature of the targets and avoid errors.

The practice of dropping leaflets or calling residents before a bombing is presented by Israel as evidence of its efforts to comply with these rules, although critics reply that these methods are not always effective and do not in any event prevent the destruction of civilian property.

Obligations

A frequent accusation levelled against Hamas is that it deliberately endangers its own civilians by placing military objectives in their midst.


"Ultimately, the legality of a particular targeting decision will often depend on who is right about what happened"

This is certainly a serious breach of the laws of armed conflict, but it does not mitigate Israel's obligation to continue to take all necessary precautions to minimise loss of civilian life.

All modern armed forces, including the Israel Defense Forces, have specialists on the law of armed conflict who are involved in the approval of targets.

Ultimately, the legality of a particular targeting decision will often depend on who is right about what happened. Was there a genuine military objective? Was it possible in the circumstances to hit that target while avoiding any loss of civilian life? What did the attacker know or should have known?

Establishing these facts during an armed conflict, or in its aftermath, is no easy feat.

However, when the attacker deliberately targets civilian objects, there is no version of the facts capable of justifying his actions under the laws of armed conflict.

The legal regulation of war is a sombre affair. This is an area of the law where starry-eyed idealism may be counterproductive.

It is better to remind ourselves that during an armed conflict, the law can at best reduce suffering but never eliminate it; and that wars, even those fought with a scrupulous observance of all the rules in the book, are always a scourge.

Guglielmo Verdirame is professor of International Law at the Department of War Studies and Dickson Poon School of Law, King's College London.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on November 30, 2012, 04:58:13 PM
Israel will build 3000 apartments for Jewish settlers in an area that will cut the West Bank in 2 and deny the possibilty of a Palestinian state


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/in-response-to-un-vote-israel-to-build-3-000-new-homes-in-settlements.premium-1.481695

In response to UN vote, Israel to build 3,000 new homes in settlements

Netanyahu orders thousands of new housing units in East Jerusalem and the West Bank; controversial plans for new construction in the E1 area near Jerusalem will be advanced, contrary to commitments made to the Obama administration.

By Barak Ravid | Nov.30, 2012 | 5:36 PM



Israel plans to build some 3,000 new housing units in East Jerusalem and West Bank settlements in response to the Palestinians' successful bid for recognition at the UN General Assembly this week, a senior diplomatic source told Haaretz on Friday.

According to the source, Israel also plans to advance long-frozen plans for the E1 area, which covers an area that links the city of Jerusalem with the settlement of Ma'aleh Adumim.

If built, the controversial plan would prevent territorial contiguity between the northern and southern West Bank, making it difficult for a future Palestinian state to function.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 02, 2012, 04:07:44 PM
Ceasefire update : Israel has killed 2 Palestinians , wounded 43 and arrested 19 fishermen since the ceasefire began. Last night, a shell hit a house and 4 people were injured, 2 seriously.

They are trying to get the resistance in Gaza to retaliate, and then they can go back to full scale attack. They are a wounded state at the minute, and they are lashing out.

On top of the announcement of 3,000 new illegal houses, they are now to hold $120 million in taxes due to be paid to the Palestinian Authority. The sooner Palestine take them to the international court the better.

Then, there is this new 'Site 911' that is to be built by the US in Israel.......

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers taking bids to build complex for Israeli Air Force

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is receiving bids to build a five-story complex for the Israeli Air Force, or IAF, near Tel Aviv.

The facility, mysteriously dubbed "site 911," will be built under the auspices of the Foreign Military Sales program and is expected to cost the U.S. between $25 million and $100 million, according to a solicitation for bids posted on a U.S. government website.

Only U.S. construction firms are able to bid on this contract, and the deadline for proposals is December 3, according to the notice. The notice, first reported on by The Washington Post, includes structural plans that show the first three underground floors are roughly 41,000 square feet and will include classrooms on Level 1, an auditorium on Level 3 and shock-resistant doors throughout.

The architectural plans, drawn up by prominent Israeli firm Ada Karmi-Melamede Architects, pays close attention to the aesthetics of the design as well as the functional parameters outlined in the solicitation. For example, three picnic tables are planned for the exterior.

Atypical to most Corps of Engineers contracts, the contractor hired will be required to supply mezuzahs, which it describes as parchment inscribed with Torah verses, "for each door or opening exclusive of toilets or shower rooms." Generally, mezuzahs are placed in a case and attached to a door frame as a sign of the Jewish faith.

The construction site, on an established Israeli Air Force base, will be guarded by "an Israeli citizen who served in the IAF" and will be separated from military installations with a solid 6-foot fence. Despite the precautions taken around the base, construction workers will be subject to stringent security regulations. Non-Israeli employees are required to arrive on and exit from the site "in a group only"; "the fenced area shall have one gate only for both entering and exiting the site"; and during work hours, employees are prohibited from leaving the base.

The notice also states that the employment of non-Israeli citizens is forbidden, except those from "the U.S., Canada, Western Europe countries, Poland, Moldavia, Thailand, Philippines, Venezuela, Romania and China." It specifies that the employment of Palestinians is strictly prohibited. In addition, it says, "the Contracting Officer retains all rights to refuse or inhibit employment of any employee."

Site 911 appears to be one of the largest facilities built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which maintains three offices in Israel and has been credited with building a variety of facilities for the Israel Defense Forces over the last few years, including underground hangars for Israeli fighter-bombers and command centers. The purpose of Site 911 remains unclear.

The Israeli Embassy in Washington and the Israel Defense Forces did not respond to requests from CNN for comment.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 02, 2012, 04:28:57 PM
More news from Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-confiscates-nis-460-million-in-palestinian-authority-tax-funds.premium-1.481888#

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz decided Sunday to confiscate the tax revenues that Israel collected for the Palestinian Authority during the month of November, and use it to offset the PA's debt to Israel's Electric Corporation.

The move comes in response to Thursday's upgrade of Palestine at the United Nations to nonmember observer state, following a vote of 138 to 9. Following the upgrade, Israel announced on Friday that it intends on building 3,000 new homes in settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

The confiscation of funds, which total NIS 460 million and are intended for the salaries of PA officials, comes after Israel warned of the move ahead of the UN vote. On November 11, Steinitz warned: "If the Palestinians continue to advance their unilateral move they should not expect bilateral cooperation. We will not collect their taxes for them and we will not transfer their tax revenues."

However, as the Israeli government weighed the legal implications following last week's UN General Assembly vote, it was not expected to rescind the economic accords that govern relations with the Palestinian Authority or do anything that would bring about its collapse.

In the weekly meeting on Sunday, Israel's cabinet unanimously decided to reject the UN decision to upgrade Palestine's status. In the decision, it was written that the West Bank is a "contested area" over which the "Jewish people have a natural right."

Moreover, the cabinet decision also stated that the UNGA decision "will not serve as the basis to future negotiations with the Palestinian Authority and it cannot advance a peaceful solution."

Netanyahu also compared the recent UN General Assembly decision to recognize Palestine as a nonmember state with observer status to the 1975 UNGA decision that equated Zionism with racism. During the weekly cabinet meeting, Netanyahu read out the cabinet decision from 1975 in which then Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin said that in response to the UN decision, Israel will accelerate plans to settle in various parts of the country, as well as in West Bank settlements. 

Ahead of the PA's expected upgrade at the UN, Israeli officials had weighed a number of retaliatory steps, such as reconsidering the provisions of the Oslo Accords, including the 1994 Paris Protocol.

The protocol regulates economic ties between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, tasking the former with collecting taxes and customs duties on the latter's behalf, amounting to around $100 million a month on goods imported into the Palestinian territories

Israel has previously frozen payments to the Palestinian government during times of heightened security and diplomatic tensions, provoking strong international criticism.

In 2011, Israel froze November's transfer of October's $100 million in tax funds to punish the Palestinians for their efforts to win UN recognition of their independence. The Israeli decision came after the Palestinians were accepted to the UN cultural agency UNESCO as part of a broader effort for admission as a full member state at the United Nations.

On November 30 that year, Israel announced that it would release the funds owed to the Palestinian Authority, ending a standoff that the Palestinians said had caused grave damage to their fragile economy.

The tax funds from customs duties and other fees are needed by the Palestinian government, the largest single employer in the Palestinian territories, to pay tens of thousands of workers, as well as security forces, which have won praise for their cooperation in halting militant attacks on Israelis.

The move followed heavy pressure from the United States, United Nations and Europe on Israel to free the money.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on December 02, 2012, 04:59:22 PM
138 Countries are out of step with Israel .
The arrogance of the fcukers  ???
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 03, 2012, 04:20:08 PM
UK and France summon Israeli envoys in settlements row

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20579248

Britain and France have both summoned Israeli ambassadors in protest at Israel's decision to approve the construction of 3,000 new homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The UK said the move would cast doubt on Israel's "stated commitment to achieving peace with the Palestinians".

Israel authorised the 3,000 additional housing units a day after the UN voted to upgrade Palestinian status.

An official close to the prime minister said Israel would not change its mind.

"Israel will continue to stand by its vital interests, even in the face of international pressure, and there will be no change in the decision that was made," an official in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said.

Sweden has also summoned the Israeli ambassador, while Russia and Germany have expressed their opposition to the settlement plans.

The UN has warned the homes would be "an almost fatal blow" to peace hopes.


Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu: "We will continue building in Jerusalem and anywhere on Israel's strategic map"


In a statement, the UK Foreign Office said it was urging Israel to reconsider, and threatened a "strong reaction" if the homes went ahead.

It said: "We deplore the recent Israeli government decision to build 3,000 new housing units and unfreeze development in the E1 block. This threatens the viability of the two state solution."

Plans for construction in the E1 area - between Jerusalem and the West Bank settlement of Maaleh Adumim - are strongly opposed by Palestinians, who say such development will prevent the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon earlier warned that the E1 plans would have to be rescinded.


Analysis


Jonathan Marcus
BBC Diplomatic Correspondent
The British and French governments have made their displeasure at Israel's latest settlement announcement clear, and there are hints that further steps could be taken.

The threat to build in the area designated E1, east of Jerusalem, has especially annoyed Western governments - indeed, successive US administrations have been given assurances by Israel that it would not build there. Construction in E1 would pose a major obstacle to a contiguous Palestinian state on the West Bank and divide such an entity from Jerusalem, which the Palestinians see as their future capital.

Indications from Israel had suggested that its initial response to the UN General Assembly vote granting the Palestinians permanent observer status would be largely rhetorical. There's a sense in the air that the diplomatic climate is changing but no real evidence as yet that Washington - the critical player - is again ready to invest in the elusive quest for peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Move risks diplomatic fallout
"It would represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution," Mr Ban said.

An Israeli official has described the proposals in the E1 zone as "preliminary zoning and planning work".

The Israeli envoy to Paris was summoned to a meeting on Monday morning, French foreign ministry spokesman, Philippe Lalliot, said in a statement.

The BBC's Peter Biles says the UK is coordinating closely with France in sending a clear warning signal to Israel, but he says a suggestion in the Israeli press that Britain and France may recall their ambassadors in protest seems unlikely at this stage.

German government spokesman Steffen Seibert said in Berlin: "Israel is undermining faith in its willingness to negotiate and the geographic space for a future Palestinian state, which must be the basis for a two-state solution, is disappearing."

The Russian foreign ministry website said the move would have "a most adverse impact" on peace.

Israel has condemned the Palestinians' diplomatic move at the UN as a "gross violation" of previous agreements with Israel.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu also brushed off criticism of the settlement plans.

"We will carry on building in Jerusalem and in all the places that are on the map of Israel's strategic interests," he said.

About 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The settlements are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.

Two decades of on-off negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority have failed to produce a permanent settlement, with the latest round of direct negotiations breaking down in 2010.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2012, 08:10:56 AM
Anyone in any doubt about the real face of Zionism should read this letter today, on budget day in Ireland when another 3.5 bn is taken out of the economy

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224327508293

Sir, – Supporters of boycotts in countries with struggling economies are best counselled to wield their power judiciously (Home News, December 3rd).

While all too many in Ireland are charged with their ill-advised boycott of Israel and its products, I dare to suggest that the spirit of the boycott equally has the effect of inciting worldwide supporters of Israel to boycott products of Ireland, and Irish travel.

Is it not interesting that the effects of boycotts are reciprocal? – Yours, etc,

ALLEN E NUTIK,

Redfern Avenue,

Montreal, Canada
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: glens abu on December 05, 2012, 10:00:26 AM
SINN FÉIN has called for Ireland's Ambassador to Israel to be recalled in protest against the Israeli Government's decision to build another 3,000 illegal settler homes that would effectively cut the West Bank in two.

The move by Tel Aviv is in retaliation for the United Nations upgrading last week of Palestine's diplomatic status at the UN and giving de facto recognition of Palestine statehood.

UN chief Ban Ki-moon warned the expansionist aggression could wipe out peace hopes.

Germany and Russia have criticised the Israeli plans while France, Britain, and Sweden have already summoned the Israeli ambassadors in their countries as a protest.

Sinn Féin Foreign Affairs spokesperson Seán Crowe TD (right) said that Ireland needs to send out a strong message and exert "maximum pressure".

The new settlement colonies will be built in the highly contentious E1 area of the West Bank, the only geographical connection that remains between Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Settlement building in this area threatens to cut off Palestinian access to East Jerusalem, removing the possibility of East Jerusalem becoming the capital of any future Palestinian state.

"This possibility puts a two-state solution in real jeopardy," Seán Crowe said.

"Israel needs to recognise that the vast majority of the international community support a two-state solution and it needs to begin inclusive and productive negotiations with elected Palestinian representatives immediately."

Meanwhile, Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams TD (right) has described the Israeli Government's decision as "a deliberate snub to the international community and a serious blow to diminishing hopes of a two-state settlement".

The Sinn Féin leader has urged the international community to "take strong and urgent diplomatic action against Israel".

Gerry Adams added:

"This decision must not be allowed to stand and every action possible must be taken by the international community to have these plans scrapped.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2012, 10:35:45 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/bedouin-face-displacement-in-west-bank-corridor-regardless-of-israel-s-constructions-plans.premium-1.482595
Bedouin face displacement in West Bank corridor, regardless of Israel's constructions plans

Whether recently approved plans for construction in the E-1 area materialize or not, Israel plans to the relocate the local Bedouin population - against their will.

By Amira Hass | Dec.05, 2012 | 10:57 AM | 3

Ten Palestinian Bedouin communities living in the West Bank corridor connecting Ma'ale Adumim and Jerusalem  are concerned that if recently approved plans for construction in the area materialize, they will be the first to be harmed by the move, a member of the local Bedouin council told Haaretz on Tuesday.

But even if Israel continues the freeze on the development plans in the area known as E-1, these ten communities and another approximately ten communities living in the area - some 2,300 people - face displacement. Israel has been planning to resettle the Bedouin communities living in the West Bank, starting with the areas surrounding Jerusalem, in permanent settlements, against their will.

In October this year, the state told the High Court that it intends to complete this resettling process in the outskirts of Jerusalem, including the E1 area, within a year. Members of the Jihalin tribe, who are residents of Khan al-Ahmar, told Haaretz Tuesday that the Civil Administration informed them of their intention to relocate them to an already existing village near Jericho, which, according to them, is home to Palestinians from across the West Bank.

"We oppose moving there. If we cannot return to the Negev then at least we should be permitted to stay in the place where we have been living for decades. The place earmarked for us is already occupied by people. The Civil Administration told us that the residents are living there illegally, and that their homes (two stories high) will be demolished. We do not agree with other people being relocated because of us, and at any rate the proposed location doesn't suit us. The Civil Administrations' plan will put an end to our traditional way of life and will lead to internal disintegration," one of the residents said.

The local Bedouin council, established two years ago, expects the European Union, which has expressed its opposition to the displacement of the Bedouin communities in the past, will intervene.

Some 80 percent of Bedouin who live on the eastern periphery of Jerusalem are registered as refugees, from families that Israel exiled at the beginning of the 1950s from Tel Arad in the Negev. Until 1967 they continued to live a traditional lifestyle, of raising and herding livestock in the West Bank and the Jordan Valley. Since the occupation of the West Bank in 1967 the areas in which the Bedouin are allowed to move and herd has been greatly reduced, as Israel has declared certain areas of the land as fire zones, and set aside other areas for settlements. Over the past twenty years, the situation of the Bedouin has gotten worse as West Bank settlements have expanded, access to Jerusalem - the main market for their produce – has been blocked, the West Bank separation barrier has been built and the, Jerusalem-Jericho road expanded.

Israel does not allow the Bedouin to building and connect to infrastructure, and does not even allow them to put up tents to match the natural growth of their population. For the expansion of Ma'ale Adumim in 1997, some 150 families from the Jihalin tribe were forced to move to an area in Abu Dis that is next to a landfill site.

Last year, the Civil Authority was forced to suspend plans to build an additional neighborhood near the landfill, and to move families from other tribes to the area. This followed diplomatic pressure and a legal battle undertaken by the families' attorney, Shlomo Lecker, who showed evidence that living close to a garbage dump carries a health risk.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 13, 2012, 01:45:09 PM
At around 7:30 pm on Wednesday 12 December 2012 a soldier of the Israeli army shot dead Mohammad Salayme, killing him with two bullets to the body and head in the Salayme neigbourhood of Hebron near to the Ibrahimi mosque. Mohammad had spent the day in school and was on his way to buy some cake for him and his family to celebrate his birthday, when suddenly his life was cut short.

Another Palestinian man was shot with live ammunition and injured, he was taken to a hospital in the city. The Israeli military claimed Mohammad Salayme was carrying a fake gun, therefore shot him. Mohammad's father who rushed to administer first aid to his son said he saw no fake gun on him. Sound bombs, tear gas and rubber bullets were fired at Palestinians who tried to help the dying teenager.

The Israeli military closed off all the streets around the area where Mohammed was killed to prevent any journalists from reaching the incident. A car carrying four journalists was hit with several rounds of live ammunition and the journalists were stopped and forced from their car. The journalists, two from Youth Against Settlements, one from Reuters and one from Palmedia were forced to strip to their underwear in the cold evening air. The soldiers took their cameras and physically beat up the journalists resulting in them needing hospital treatment. A filmmaker who works for the Israeli peace group Btselem who lives close to the shooting was surrounded by 12 soldiers, beaten up and arrested. Officers from the District Coordination Office For Military Affairs informed local activists the cameras would be returned to them tomorrow after being checked for evidence.

The Israeli military flooded the city with an enormous amount of soldiers who attempted to clear the streets in a very aggressive manner, throwing sound bombs into groups of remonstrating Palestinians, shooting tear gas and rubber coated steel bullets. This behaviour only antagonised the residents of Hebron turning the tense situation into outright confrontation as clashes erupted throughout the city. The areas of Salayme, Bab Al-Zawiya, Qtoun and Dar Al Binzaid all echoed to the sound of live ammunition, concussion grenades, tear gas and rubber coated steel bullets. Clashes were reported in the nearby city of Yatta and in Dura.

Tensions in Hebron are rising as the Israeli occupation forces are using increased levels of violence in the city ever since the recent Israeli assualt on Gaza. Hamdi Alfalah was killed on November 20th and many people have been injured. Hebron will see another funeral on Thursday 13th of December.

http://palsolidarity.org/2012/12/israeli-forces-kill-teenager-on-his-17th-birthday-in-hebron/
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2012, 02:13:02 PM
Israel is now sterilising black Jewish women

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-s-ethiopians-suffer-different-planned-parenthood.premium-1.484110

Israel's Ethiopians suffer different 'planned' parenthood
The revelation that Israel is sterilizing Ethiopian women adds to a shameful history of abuse of powerless women and communities.
By Efrat Yardai | Dec.12, 2012 | 11:15 PM
   

By Anshel Pfeffer | Dec.12,2012 | 11:15 PM |  34

It's hard to believe, but in Israel, in 2012, Ethiopian women are forced to receive injections of the Depo-Provera contraceptive. This injection is not a commonly prescribed means of contraception. It is considered a last resort and is usually given to women who are institutionalized or developmentally disabled. Yet according to an investigation recently aired on the "Vacuum" documentary series hosted by Gal Gabay and shown on Israeli Educational Television, it is also given to many new immigrants from Ethiopia.
This is not the first or only case where the state has interfered in the lives of people who have limited means of resistance. And as in other cases, the system that carried out this policy is extremely sophisticated, so it is hard to find a specific person who is responsible or a signed and written order. But the televised investigation, conducted with researcher Sava Reuven, found that more than 40 women have received the shot.
Depo-Provera has a shameful history. According to a report by the Isha L'Isha organization, the injections were given to women between 1967 and 1978 as part of an experiment that took place in the U.S. state of Georgia on 13,000 impoverished women, half of whom were black. Many of them were unaware that the injections were part of an experiment being conducted on their bodies. Some of the women became sick and a few even died during the experiment.
There are many examples across the world of efforts to reduce birthrates among disadvantaged populations that lack the resources and the capability to resist. During the 1960s, the U.S. was concerned by the increase of the population in Puerto Rico. In 1965, it was reported that 34 percent of Puerto Rican mothers aged 20 to 49 had been sterilized.
The injections given to Ethiopian women are part and parcel of the overall Israeli attitude toward this group of immigrants. During the 1980s and 1990s, thousands of Ethiopian Jews spent months or years in transit camps in Ethiopia and Sudan. Hundreds died en route to Israel simply because a country that is supposed to be a safe haven for Jews decided the time wasn't right, they couldn't all be absorbed together or they weren't Jewish enough – who had heard of black Jews?
In transit camps today, future immigrants enter a horrifying bureaucratic entanglement, which gives them the burden of proving they are worthy of arriving in Israel. As in the past, those who arrive here are not quickly released from the grasp of state institutions. They continue to receive "treatment" in absorption centers, where the children are sent to religious boarding schools and included in special education frameworks, while the parents stay in ghettos and the women continue to receive injections. We are told there is no choice. The repressive, racist and paternalistic policies continue unhindered – policies that are supposedly in the best interests of the immigrants, who don't know what is best for them.
This policy of total control over their lives, which starts while they are still in Ethiopia, is unique to immigrants from that country and does not allow them to adjust to Israel. Using the excuse that they need to be prepared for a modern country, they are brainwashed and made to remain dependent on the state absorption institutions.
The American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee said the claims the women made in the investigation were nonsense. This reminded me of some other women who spoke nonsense, such as the mothers of the kidnapped Yemenite children or the Moroccan women who underwent "treatment" for ringworm. To this day, their words are dismissed as nonsense. If they tried to sterilize me or take my children away, I think I would be talking nonsense too.
The writer is a group instructor for women of Ethiopian origin on behalf of the Achoti – Women in Israel organization and served as a spokeswoman for the Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 13, 2012, 02:54:21 PM
Seafoid, their depravity knows no bounds.....
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2012, 03:31:11 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 13, 2012, 02:54:21 PM
Seafoid, their depravity knows no bounds.....
they are worse than Bull Connor and the other racists who ran Dixieland back in the 1960s .
Israel is really sick
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on December 13, 2012, 03:40:29 PM
Nazism alive and well in the rogue State.
It will continue in this vein while the likes of this bunch of racist fascist cnuts are around -
"The American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee"  .

Fair play to Seafoid and Dixie for publicising these things and naming the Palestinians.
Usual Western media lick asres never name a Palestinian in case people would realise they are humans too.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 13, 2012, 05:51:19 PM
After Deadly Siege in Gaza, US to Restock Israeli Munitions

Israel continues its retaliation over Palestinian observer status


- Jacob Chamberlain, staff writer

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/12/12-9


The U.S. Department of Defense stated this week that it will now replenish all of the munitions used by Israel in its recent eight day siege on Gaza, which lead to the deaths of over 180 Palestinians and hundreds of injuries—a large portion being children.


The DoD notified Congress on Monday of the $647 million deal with Israel to restock the Israel Air Force (IAF) with munitions used in the over one thousand bombings conducted during the "Operation Pillar of Defense" on Gaza last month. Congress is expected to approve the deal this week.

The DoD said the deal includes roughly 7,000 Joint Attack Munitions kits, and 10,000 bombs of various kinds, mostly bunker-buster bombs, including 1,725 BLU-109 bunker-buster bombs, and 3,450 GBU-39 bunker-buster bombs.

In addition to the large amount of civilian casualties, the assault on Gaza also destroyed roughly 8,000 buildings and roughly $1.2 billion in infrastructural damage, according to Palestinian officials.

"The United States is committed to the security of Israel, and it is vital to U.S. national interests to assist Israel to develop and maintain a strong and ready self-defense capability," the Pentagon said in a statement.

Meanwhile, Israeli officials announced Wednesday that it will now withhold needed tax revenues from the Palestinian administration in the West Bank for at least four months in retaliation for the Palestinians' bid for observer status at the UN this month. The December funds transfer was already withheld.

Palestine won the status of observer state at the United Nations in a landslide vote. Both the U.S. and Israel were among the small minority of countries to vote no.

"The Palestinians can forget about getting even one cent in the coming four months, and in four months' time we will decide how to proceed," Avigdor Lieberman, the Israel foreign minister, said in a speech on Tuesday night.

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a senior Palestinian official, said earlier this month that Israel was guilty of "piracy and theft" by refusing to hand over the funds.

"Contractual obligations ... regarding full, timely, predictable and transparent transfer of tax and custom revenues have to be respected," European Union officials stated.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 13, 2012, 06:04:35 PM
'Fake gun or not, I know I did the right thing'

"I'm not afraid for my life," says Border Patrol officer who killed Palestinian teen, after receiving online death threats.

With tensions on the rise in the West Bank on Thursday, the female Border Patrol officer who fatally shot a Palestinian teen in Hebron the night before said she is content with how she performed her duty, even as it emerged that Mohammed Al-Salaymeh was armed only with a toy pistol.

"It didn't change it for me, because in those same moments you don't have time to think or be confused. For me it was a real pistol in every sense of the word pointed at my soldier and it's my responsibility to act, because if I don't  kill him my friend will be killed, and I won't let this happen," said "N" on Thursday.

"After they investigated the incident it turned out it was a fake gun, but it didn't change how I felt about it. I'm happy this ended with no injuries on our side and I'm sure any other officer in my situation would have done what I did," she added.

N said that she had only moments to react and instantly got in position, finding a clear line of fire before letting off three shots into al-Salaymeh.

By Thursday morning, pro-Palestinian forums were awash with un-pixilated photos of N (whose identity in Israel is blocked from publication by the military censor) with her full name included. A number of these forums, including at least one Facebook page, were flooded with threats and calls for revenge against the border patrol officer.

When asked if she was worried about the death threats she said "I managed to take a look at them here and there but I'm not afraid. Of course they'd write things like this so I'd feel bad about what happened but I know I did the right thing. This is what they taught us, to fire at the terrorist in order to neutralize them, fake gun or not."

N, who serves in the Hebron area as a Border Patrol commander, said she was showered with compliments by commanding officers and that although she is supposed to finish her service in a year and a half, after last night she is considering reenlisting and applying to be an officer.

With tensions high in the West Bank after the incident, which followed a series of violent encounters between Israeli security forces and Palestinians this week, N said she is not afraid that someone will try to hurt her out in the field or in her civilian life.

"This is our mission and if we face a threat we know how to deal with it. All of us, the police, border police, IDF, we're all in this together to protect the Jewish residents and our country. Maybe there are threats here or there but it doesn't bother me. "

Police said Wednesday that around 6:30 pm on Wednesday night al-Salaymeh, who was celebrating his 17th birthday, was walking near a Border Patrol post near the Tomb of the Patriarchs when he caught the attention of the patrolmen. Police said after they asked him for his ID he began fighting with a patrolman and pulled out a pistol and pointing it at the officer. Police said he was then shot by N, and only later did police determine the pistol was in fact a fake gun.

Judea and Samaria police have opened an investigation into the incident. Violent riots broke out at the scene afterwards, as well as elsewhere in the West Bank. The IDF and the Israel Police went on high alert after the shooting and expected violent disturbances to pick up in the West Bank following the incident.

While Israeli media initially described Al-Salaymeh as a terrorist, Palestinians on Twitter claimed him as an innocent martyr killed by the Border Police for no reason. On Thursday, Palestinians on Twitter posted a photograph of the smiling Al-Salaymeh sitting by a birthday cake earlier in the day.

It has been widely reported that Al-Salaymeh's brother is Awad Salima Ziyad. Awad, who was arrested on December 17th 1993 and convicted of murder during a hostile act, attempted murder, throwing a Molotov cocktail, and membership in a banned organization. Awad was released in October 2011 in the first phase of the Shalit Deal.

After the shooting on Thursday, Border Patrol commander Major Gen. Amos Yaakov praised the conduct of N and her fellow officers, saying that they showed "the professionalism and determination that is expected of Border Patrol fighters."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 13, 2012, 06:35:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2012, 03:40:29 PM
Nazism alive and well in the rogue State.
It will continue in this vein while the likes of this bunch of racist fascist cnuts are around -
"The American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee"  .

Fair play to Seqafoin and Dixie for publicising these things and naming the Palestinians.
Usual Western media lick asres never name a Palestinian in case people would realise they are humans too.

Thanks Ross, they do indeed have names, and one thing I have always tried to do is get the name and age of anyone killed asap and report it. The west would like us to treat them as muslim terrorists, when in fact it is they who are the real terrorists.

What really makes my blood boil is the sight of Irish politicians, north and south, who jump on the bandwagon every so often when it suits them to show show support for Palestine. They do so at a time when the whole country is speaking out, and they use the Palestinian cause to gain favour.

Just recently a few Irish politicians jumped on the freebe junket train and traveled to Gaza. They used the trip to further themselves and their party and used every available opportunity to do so, and showed no respect for the pain and suffering of the people who suffered so much during the 8 day massacre inflicted upon them. Their actions didn't go unnoticed by the Palestinians in Gaza........

When the chips are down, they couldn't give a hoot as they put their "Special" relationship with the USA first and foremost. You only have to look at the reception the worlds leading terrorist Hillary Clinton got last week as she visited Ireland. Until a main stream Irish political party has the balls to stand up to the US and call them for what they really are, then their fake support for Palestine is as hollow as the Port Tunnel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 13, 2012, 11:26:00 PM
Israelis shoot Palestinian at funeral for slain boy

HEBRON/NABLUS, Palestine: Israeli forces shot and seriously wounded a 16-year-old Palestinian Thursday in Hebron, medics said, as thousands mourned the death of another teenager killed by Israeli forces. Medical officials told AFP that Nasser Sharabani was undergoing surgery in a Hebron hospital after being hit in the chest by gunfire.

They did not know the circumstances of the shooting, but the West Bank city has been rocked by protests since Mohammad Ziad Sulaima, also 16, was shot dead Wednesday evening at an Israeli checkpoint in Hebron.

Palestinian medical officials said that since Thursday morning 90 Palestinians had been treated after clashes with Israeli forces – 68 suffering from tear gas inhalation, 21 injured by rubber bullets and Sharabani.

Wednesday's shooting of 17-year-old Mohammad Sulaima has raised tensions in Hebron, where several hundred ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers live in heavily fortified enclaves in the midst of more than 180,000 Palestinians.

The shooting occurred near a holy site known to Jews as the Cave of the Patriarchs and to Muslims as the Ibrahimi Mosque. Tradition holds that it is the place where their shared patriarch, Ibrahim, bought a burial plot.

Israeli police said Sulaima, who died on his birthday, was shot after threatening border policemen in the city with a weapon, which turned out to be a toy. Clashes erupted after Sulaima's death, and continued throughout Thursday.

Sulaima's uncle, Nasser, told AFP that the Israeli version of his nephew's death was "a fabrication."

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights said its preliminary probe showed that Israeli forces "at the checkpoint were detaining a child, who had a plastic pistol" as Sulaima approached.

When he reached the checkpoint, an Israeli border policewoman "fired at him from a close range ... he was hit by three bullets," the group said.

After the incident, Palestinian activists identified the border policewoman and posted pictures of her on social media networks.

Israeli activists also posted pictures of the woman, praising her actions, as she told the Jerusalem Post daily she had no qualms about the incident.

"I'm happy this ended with no injuries on our side and I'm sure any other officer in my situation would have done what I did," she said.

Thousands joined Thursday's funeral procession, praising God and vowing revenge. "Our blood will redeem the martyr," the crowd chanted.

Sulaima's body was wrapped in a green Hamas shroud as it was carried on a stretcher through the streets. Dozens of people held green Hamas flags aloft during the procession. Sulaima's family is known to support Hamas, and his brother was released last year in a prisoner swap between Hamas and Israel that freed an Israeli soldier held for five years in Gaza.

Thousands also marched in a rare Hamas rally in the northern West Bank city of Nablus, celebrating the group's "victory" over Israel in Gaza.

The rally was the first time that the West Bank's ruling Palestinian Authority – which is dominated by the Fatah faction, Hamas' bitter rival – has allowed such a gathering since 2007.

It comes as the two movements, which dominate the Palestinian political scene, take tentative steps toward restarting a fraught reconciliation process, which has stalled in the past year.

An AFP correspondent said at least 5,000 people took part in the celebration, which also marked 25 years since the establishment of the Islamist group which rules the Gaza Strip.

Despite an overcast sky, the mood was exuberant, with enthusiastic youths waving the green flag of Hamas as a procession left the city's Al-Nasser Mosque.

"Our message is that Hamas is here, on the ground and in the heart of our people," Hamas MP Hosni al-Burini told AFP.

Yussef Iqtishaat, a teenager attending the rally with his family, was among those eagerly brandishing the movement's flag. "It's a great day thanks to the victory in Gaza," he told AFP.

"We are with Hamas, you are the gun and we are the ammunition," one banner said.

Some people also carried wooden models of the rockets fired by Hamas and other Gaza groups at Israel during the eight-day conflict last month.

Among those speaking at the rally was Amin Maqbul, secretary-general of Fatah's revolutionary council who saluted the rival movement.

"Hamas has given thousands of martyrs, prisoners and wounded for Palestine," he said to roars or approval, adding that Fatah head and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas would soon hold reconciliation talks with Hamas's chief-in-exile.

"There will soon be a meeting in Cairo between Abu Mazen [Abbas] and Khaled Meshaal to complete the reconciliation and this will be a historic day," he assured the audience.

Speaking to AFP, Hamas MP Hosni al-Burini called on the PA "to intensify its efforts for national unity."

Read more: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Dec-14/198424-israelis-shoot-palestinian-at-funeral-for-slain-boy.ashx#ixzz2EyfIG4bl
(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: http://www.dailystar.com.lb)


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 14, 2012, 08:23:56 AM
Israel is run by violent bigoted tramps. Always has been.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/lieberman-invokes-the-holocaust-to-slam-europe-s-israel-policy.premium-1.484168


"It is untenable," he (Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman) said, "to have a situation in which that soldier in Hebron gets punched by a Palestinian policemen and the Palestinian policeman remains alive after that."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 14, 2012, 11:41:42 AM
A bit of good news for a change.......

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/new-zealands-national-pension-fund-dumps-israeli-firms-building-illegal

New Zealand's national pension fund dumps Israeli firms building "illegal" settlements, wall

New Zealand's $20 billion national pension fund has divested from three Israeli companies because of their direct involvement in building settlements and the annexation wall in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

In a statement posted on its website on 12 December, the New Zealand Superannuation Fund announced that shares in Africa Israel and its subsidiary Danya Cebus and Shikun & Binui had all been sold "because of their involvement in the construction of Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories."

Shikun & Binui is Israel's largest real estate development firm.

Elbit Systems Limited was also divested from "because of its involvement in the construction of the Separation Barrier in the Occupied Palestinian Territories," which, as the statement notes, "has been cited as illegal under international law."

Illegality of Israel's actions "central" to New Zealand decision

The total value of shares the fund had held in the three companies was relatively small – about $50,000 – however, it is significant that the illegality of Israeli practices in which the companies were involved was "central" to the decision to sell them, as the Fund's statement said:

Findings by the United Nations that the Separation Barrier and settlement activities were illegal under international law were central to the Fund's decision to exclude the companies, said Manager, Responsible Investment Anne-Maree O'Connor.

The Fund also factored in votes by New Zealand for UN Security Council resolutions demanding the cessation and dismantling of the Separation Barrier, and the cessation of Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

The Fund also viewed the companies' activities to be inconsistent with the UN Global Compact, the key benchmark against which the Fund measures corporate behaviour.

The action by the New Zealand fund – the equivalent of the US Social Security Administration – follows earlier decisions by Norway's state pension fund to divest from the same companies.

Last week, Elbit Systems, a major Israeli arms manufacturer, pulled out of an international aerospace convention in France following protests by Palestine solidarity activists.

Campaign to tell hunger charity City Harvest to disavow funding from Africa Israel owner

Africa Israel, owned by Lev Leviev, among other things a conflict diamond tycoon, has also long been the target of successful activist campaigns.

This week Adalah-NY launched a campaign to tell City Harvest, a charity that works to alleviate hunger in New York City, to disavow funding from Leviev. "Alleviating hunger in New York City by legitimizing a contributor to poverty and hunger in other countries contradicts the spirit of social justice," Adalah-NY said in a message it urged people to send through its website to City Harvest Executive Director Jilly Stephens.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 17, 2012, 10:46:32 PM
The Zionist Embassy in Dublin sends out their message of hate for Christmas.....


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1217/breaking53.html

Israeli embassy removes Facebook post

The Israeli embassy in Dublin has apologised for a post on its Facebook page which said if Mary and Jesus were alive today they would "probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians".

The post, which was made on the Israel in Ireland Facebook page at about lunchtime today, showed a picture of Mary and Jesus. It was accompanied by the comment:

"A thought for Christmas...If Jesus and mother Mary were alive today, they would, as Jews without security, probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians.

Just a thought......."

By 3 pm it had 20 'likes', though several comments expressed distaste for the post.

Among them was one saying: !Have you no regard for honesty whatsoever? If Jesus & Mary were alive today, they would be protesting against the Israeli occupation of Palestine, along with all the Palestinian Christians currently living in Bethlehem.!

The post was reported in the major Israeli on-line news site, Haaretz as well as on the Washington Post site today.

When contacted a spokesman for the embassy confirmed the page was an official embassy site. Asked who posted to it he said: "Different members of staff at the embassy post to it."

He then asked if The Irish Times was doing a piece on it and was told it was a possibility.

The post was removed about half an hour later and replaced with a statement.

"To whom it may concern: An image of Jesus and Mary with a derogatory comment about Palestinians was posted without the consent of the administrator of the Facebook page. We have removed the post in question immediately.Apologies to anyone who may have been offended. Merry Christmas!"

A spokeswoman for the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign described the original post as "outrageous and extremely cynical, but not surprising".

"The fact that it was published on a site representing the Israeli state is particularly appalling. It is indicative of the racism that underpins the whole Zionist project."

The Department of Foreign Affairs declined to comment.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 18, 2012, 09:33:22 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 17, 2012, 10:46:32 PM
The Zionist Embassy in Dublin sends out their message of hate for Christmas.....


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1217/breaking53.html

Israeli embassy removes Facebook post

The Israeli embassy in Dublin has apologised for a post on its Facebook page which said if Mary and Jesus were alive today they would "probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians".

The post, which was made on the Israel in Ireland Facebook page at about lunchtime today, showed a picture of Mary and Jesus. It was accompanied by the comment:

"A thought for Christmas...If Jesus and mother Mary were alive today, they would, as Jews without security, probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians.

Just a thought......."

By 3 pm it had 20 'likes', though several comments expressed distaste for the post.

Among them was one saying: !Have you no regard for honesty whatsoever? If Jesus & Mary were alive today, they would be protesting against the Israeli occupation of Palestine, along with all the Palestinian Christians currently living in Bethlehem.!

The post was reported in the major Israeli on-line news site, Haaretz as well as on the Washington Post site today.

When contacted a spokesman for the embassy confirmed the page was an official embassy site. Asked who posted to it he said: "Different members of staff at the embassy post to it."

He then asked if The Irish Times was doing a piece on it and was told it was a possibility.

The post was removed about half an hour later and replaced with a statement.

"To whom it may concern: An image of Jesus and Mary with a derogatory comment about Palestinians was posted without the consent of the administrator of the Facebook page. We have removed the post in question immediately.Apologies to anyone who may have been offended. Merry Christmas!"

A spokeswoman for the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign described the original post as "outrageous and extremely cynical, but not surprising".

"The fact that it was published on a site representing the Israeli state is particularly appalling. It is indicative of the racism that underpins the whole Zionist project."

The Department of Foreign Affairs declined to comment.
Judaism is in a really bad way. Zionism is dragging it through the mud and nobody does anything about it.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 18, 2012, 04:03:39 PM
http://rudepundit.blogspot.ch/2012/12/away-in-manger-2012-mere-42-miles.html

A mere 42 miles separates the Gaza town of Beit Lahiya from Bethlehem, the city where Christian legend says that a virgin, led by a star, gave birth to the child of God in a place fit for animals. Two thousand years, 42 miles. The family up there was photographed yesterday, just 12 days before the supposed birthday of the Muslim prophet Jesus.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 160 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 19, 2012, 05:32:08 AM
In the immortal words of Randy Quaid in "Independence Day" just before he flies his plane with an armed missile into the alien mothership (See the similarity?  ;)).......... Hello Boys......... I'MMMM BAAACK!

Quote from: give her dixie on December 13, 2012, 01:45:09 PM
At around 7:30 pm on Wednesday 12 December 2012 a soldier of the Israeli army shot dead Mohammad Salayme, killing him with two bullets to the body and head in the Salayme neigbourhood of Hebron near to the Ibrahimi mosque. Mohammad had spent the day in school and was on his way to buy some cake for him and his family to celebrate his birthday, when suddenly his life was cut short.

Another Palestinian man was shot with live ammunition and injured, he was taken to a hospital in the city. The Israeli military claimed Mohammad Salayme was carrying a fake gun, therefore shot him. Mohammad's father who rushed to administer first aid to his son said he saw no fake gun on him. Sound bombs, tear gas and rubber bullets were fired at Palestinians who tried to help the dying teenager.

The Israeli military closed off all the streets around the area where Mohammed was killed to prevent any journalists from reaching the incident. A car carrying four journalists was hit with several rounds of live ammunition and the journalists were stopped and forced from their car. The journalists, two from Youth Against Settlements, one from Reuters and one from Palmedia were forced to strip to their underwear in the cold evening air. The soldiers took their cameras and physically beat up the journalists resulting in them needing hospital treatment. A filmmaker who works for the Israeli peace group Btselem who lives close to the shooting was surrounded by 12 soldiers, beaten up and arrested. Officers from the District Coordination Office For Military Affairs informed local activists the cameras would be returned to them tomorrow after being checked for evidence.

The Israeli military flooded the city with an enormous amount of soldiers who attempted to clear the streets in a very aggressive manner, throwing sound bombs into groups of remonstrating Palestinians, shooting tear gas and rubber coated steel bullets. This behaviour only antagonised the residents of Hebron turning the tense situation into outright confrontation as clashes erupted throughout the city. The areas of Salayme, Bab Al-Zawiya, Qtoun and Dar Al Binzaid all echoed to the sound of live ammunition, concussion grenades, tear gas and rubber coated steel bullets. Clashes were reported in the nearby city of Yatta and in Dura.

Tensions in Hebron are rising as the Israeli occupation forces are using increased levels of violence in the city ever since the recent Israeli assualt on Gaza. Hamdi Alfalah was killed on November 20th and many people have been injured. Hebron will see another funeral on Thursday 13th of December.

http://palsolidarity.org/2012/12/israeli-forces-kill-teenager-on-his-17th-birthday-in-hebron/

Still posting lies I see. It's not like you to jump on the bandwagon and just blame Israel for murdering this "child."


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163262 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163262)


Video Depicts Terrorist who Attacked Border Police in Hevron

IDF releases a video showing the terrorist who attacked a Border Police officer in Hevron and was killed by a female officer.


AAFont Size
By Elad Benari
First Publish: 12/18/2012, 1:15 AM


  http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ybw9gT1oFpE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ybw9gT1oFpE)


The IDF Spokesperson's Unit released a video on Monday which shows the 17-year-old Palestinian Authority Arab terrorist who attacked a Border Police officer in Hevron last Wednesday.

The terrorist was ultimately killed by a female officer who was on hand and shot the teen when she sensed that her fellow officer was in danger. An investigation found that the 17-year-old attacker's gun had contained no bullets, but as the officer told interviewers, "I thought that my partner would die if I didn't act within seconds. There was no time to confirm that the gun was real."



PA Arabs, outraged over the killing of the terrorist, responded by rioting throughout Judea and Samaria.

The 20-year-old officer who shot the attacker faced death threats. Arab-language websites published her picture and social media users were calling for retaliation.



Poor wee Muhammad was only out buying a cake for his granny / celebrating his 17th birthday (depends which lying piece of pal media you read) only to come up against a premenstrual border guard, who shot him for no reason.  ::) I mean, what civilised society tramples on a young mans rights and doesn't let you beat a border guard with a fake gun? Barbaric, isn't it.......  ::)
If you watch the video, you'll see that the poor child Muhammad was at least the same size as the border guard he attacked, and only 3 years younger than the guard who eventually dispatched him.
Payback's a bitch, ain't it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: JimStynes on December 19, 2012, 08:00:20 AM
3/10 for that effort BDB
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 19, 2012, 09:13:13 AM
Ball de Beaver is back

But he had no balls during the recent all out assault on Gaza.

Where was he when Israel was murdering Palestinian children in jigtime?
That is when Israel really needed his spin. And he was nowhere to be seen.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 19, 2012, 05:23:46 PM
The BBC documentary, "Shalom Belfast", in which I took part, will be screened tonight at 10-45 on BBC Northern Ireland. For those who can't receive BBC NI, you can watch it on SKY, Channel 953, or on Cable, Channel 863.

The BBC refused to screen it during the recent Gaza massacre, and have decided to show it tonight with zero prior notice. When you watch it you will understand why. Plus, with all the news recently about flags, this show puts some perspective on the current situation.......

Please share this information and encourage your friends to watch it.

Many thanks


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nw0x7
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 19, 2012, 05:50:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 19, 2012, 09:13:13 AM
Ball de Beaver is back

But he had no balls during the recent all out assault on Gaza.

Where was he when Israel was murdering Palestinian children in jigtime?
That is when Israel really needed his spin. And he was nowhere to be seen.

If you have any questions as to where I was, then ask the mods.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 19, 2012, 10:35:28 PM
"Shalom Belfast" about to start in 10 minutes on BBC 1 NI.

For anyone outside NI, click on the following link to watch from anywhere in the world

http://www.filmon.com/#BBC-1-North-Ireland
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: fitzroyalty on December 19, 2012, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 19, 2012, 10:35:28 PM
"Shalom Belfast" about to start in 10 minutes on BBC 1 NI.

For anyone outside NI, click on the following link to watch from anywhere in the world

http://www.filmon.com/#BBC-1-North-Ireland
Wow. There are some loons out there. Did you ever encounter that gentleman McKnight? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 19, 2012, 11:55:35 PM
If Israel has those people for friends, then they don't need any more enemies !!
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 06:15:19 PM
The BBC documentary, "Shalom Belfast", that was shown on Wednesday night is now available to watch on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EpvZMbhG5Dc
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 06:46:34 PM
I have long believed that the only solution is to give both sides a 100 short range nuclear war-heads, enough to blow each other off the face of the earth. That would focus the minds on more productive talks.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 08:19:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 21, 2012, 06:46:34 PM
I have long believed that the only solution is to give both sides a 100 short range nuclear war-heads, enough to blow each other off the face of the earth. That would focus the minds on more productive talks.

The Israeli's already have 500 nuclear war heads......
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 08:56:09 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 08:19:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 21, 2012, 06:46:34 PM
I have long believed that the only solution is to give both sides a 100 short range nuclear war-heads, enough to blow each other off the face of the earth. That would focus the minds on more productive talks.

The Israeli's already have 500 nuclear war heads......

They are the only nuclear power never to have officially admitted having nuclear weapons. But I take your point, give the Palestinians a similar amount but put someone smart (find a Mandela) in charge of them.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: JimStynes on December 22, 2012, 01:06:50 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 06:15:19 PM
The BBC documentary, "Shalom Belfast", that was shown on Wednesday night is now available to watch on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EpvZMbhG5Dc

That was an interesting watch I thought, makes Norn Iron look even more ridiculous!! There is no hope for that crowd in the Rangers Supporters Club, the fella saying he would die for Israel  ::) The fella who turn Jewish was the worst though, totally brainwashed. "Israel cant do anymore for them, they even let them have their own functioning banks".

Couldnt really tell who the fella's support weighed towards though. Seemed to be keeping on everyones good side or maybe he just genuinely didnt care.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: year til sunday on December 22, 2012, 02:20:20 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 06:15:19 PM
The BBC documentary, "Shalom Belfast", that was shown on Wednesday night is now available to watch on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EpvZMbhG5Dc

@32mins, "i am jack's discarded circumcision"

serious amount of glue heads in this docu
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 23, 2012, 01:37:32 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/23/bethlehem-christians-feel-squeeze-settlements

Bethlehem Christians feel the squeeze as Israeli settlements spread

Amid plastic bags snagged on gorse bushes, rusting hulks of cars in a breakers yard and a few shabby trailers, traces of a biblical landscape are still to be found on a hillside between the ancient cities of Jerusalem and Bethlehem. A couple of donkeys are tethered to a gnarled olive tree; nearby, sheep and goats bleat as they huddle against the chill December air.

But this terrain will soon be covered in concrete after the authorisation last week of the construction of more than 2,600 homes in Givat Hamatos, the first new Israeli settlement to be built since 1997.

It lies between two existing settlements: Gilo, home to 40,000 people, sits atop one hill; to its east, on another hill, stands Har Homa, whose population is around 20,000, with further expansion in the pipeline. Both are largely built on Bethlehem land.

Givat Hamatos will form a strategic link between these twin towns, further impeding access between Bethlehem and the intended capital of Palestine, East Jerusalem, just six miles away.

Israel considers these and other settlements across the Green Line to be legitimate suburbs of Jerusalem, which it claims as the unified, indivisible capital of the Jewish state. Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu and official bodies have announced a spate of expansion plans in recent weeks.

In the birthplace of Jesus, the impact of Israeli settlements and their growth has been devastating. In a Christmas message, the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas said Bethlehem was enduring a "choking reality".

He added: "For the first time in 2,000 years of Christianity in our homeland, the Holy Cities of Bethlehem and Jerusalem have been completely separated by Israeli settlements, racist walls and checkpoints."

Bethlehem is now surrounded by 22 settlements, including Nokdim, where the hardline former Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman lives, and Neve Daniel, home to public diplomacy minister Yuli Edelstein.

The city is further hemmed in by the vast concrete and steel separation barrier, bypasses connecting settlements with Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and Israeli military zones. With little room to expand, it is now more densely populated than Gaza, according to one Palestinian official.

In Beit Sahour – the site on the eastern edge of Bethlehem where, according to Christian tradition, angels announced the birth of Jesus to shepherds in a field – William Sahouri is feeling the squeeze. Ten years ago, he moved into a housing project designated for young Christian families, which overlooks fields and hills where sheep once grazed.

Now most of that land is on the other side of the separation barrier, inaccessible to Palestinians. Har Homa – which, like all settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, is illegal under international law – is rapidly spreading down the hill. Cranes are at work on new apartment blocks; bulldozers are flattening land for new roads and buildings.

In contrast, Sahouri's home, along with others in the neighbourhood, is under an Israeli demolition order. It was issued in 2002 soon after the apartments were built without a permit, which is almost impossible to get in areas of the West Bank under full Israeli military control. After protests, the order was frozen but not lifted.

"It's like sitting on a bomb," says Sahouri, who estimates his family's presence in the area stretches back more than 300 years. "We don't know when it will be blown. At any moment they could come with bulldozers and heavy machinery and everything will be gone."

But, he adds, gesturing across to Har Homa, "the Israelis can build 1,000 homes in three months. In 10 years, they build a city, while we have to build stone by stone."

Residents of Beit Sahour – whose 15,000 population is 80% Christian – say settlers have targeted another nearby spot. A former Israeli military base at Ush Ghurab is visited almost weekly by hardliners from settlements deep in the West Bank, who have repainted the abandoned buildings, planted trees and raised Israeli flags. The site is now known as Shdema to the settlers, who hold regular meetings and activities on the hilltop.

Local Palestinians fear that the visitors will begin to sleep at the former base, then expand the site with additional caravans, followed by the provision of services – electricity, water, roads – and eventually permanent homes. This is a familiar pattern of how radical settlements, unauthorised by the Israeli state, take shape.

"This area is being highly targeted," says local Palestinian activist George Rishmawi. "Experience tells us this is how settlements start – with the actions of fanatics."

On the other side of Bethlehem, another mainly Christian community is also facing a battle, this one against the planned route of the separation barrier. Under present proposals it will cut off 58 families, plus a monastery and convent, from their land. The monks and nuns of Cremisan have joined forces with residents to fight a legal battle over the route, which will be decided in the Israeli courts early next year.

"The wall will confiscate nearly all our land," says Samira Qaisieh, whose house on the edge of Beit Jala was built by her husband's family almost a century ago. Its vine-covered terrace looks across the valley to Gilo, the Israeli settlement, built on land she says was owned by her grandfather. "Israel says it is doing all this in the name of security. But really they just want a land without [Palestinian] people."

Qaisieh is thinking of leaving unless the barrier is re-routed. "There is no work here. If we lose our land, what is there to stay for? What is the future for my children?"

About two-thirds of the 400-mile West Bank barrier is complete; 85% of its route runs inside the West Bank, swallowing almost 8.5% of Palestinian land. In 2004, the International Court of Justice ruled it was illegal and that construction must stop.

The wall already snakes around most of Bethlehem, its 8m-high concrete slabs casting a deep shadow, both literally and metaphorically. At the Christmas Tree restaurant, where there are almost no takers for the "Quick Lunches" on offer, business has slowed to a standstill since the wall blocked what was once the main Jerusalem-Bethlehem road. Scores of shops along the closed-off artery have shut down altogether.

A few hundred metres along from the empty restaurant, a long steel-caged corridor leading through multiple turnstiles to a checkpoint is the main exit from the city for Palestinians wishing to go to Jerusalem. The Israel Defence Forces issues thousands of extra permits to Christian Palestinians to allow them to visit holy sites in Jerusalem over Christmas, but the lack of routine access has had a dire impact on businesses and employment rates.

Bethlehem has one of the highest rates of unemployment of all West Bank cities, at 18%, says Vera Baboun, who was elected as its first female mayor in October. "We are a strangulated city, with no room for expansion due to the settlements and the wall."

In a booklet to mark Christmas 2012, Kairos Palestine, a Christian alliance, says: "Land confiscation, as well as the influx of Israeli settlers, suggest that there will be no future for Palestinians (Christian or Muslim) in [this] area. In this sense, the prospect of a clear 'solution' grows darker every day."

Over recent decades Christians have left Bethlehem in their thousands, and now are a minority in a city they once dominated. In 2008 Christians accounted for 28% of Bethlehem city's population of about 25,000. The daily grind of living under occupation, with few opportunities, little hope and the violence of the Palestinian uprising 10 years ago are cited as the chief reasons for departure. But in the past few years the flood of emigrants has slowed. "We are here, and we will remain here, to help our new state become a reality," says Nora Carmi of Kairos.

In Beit Jala, parish priest Father Ibrahim Shomali, who leads open-air prayers under olive trees at sunset every Friday to protest at the planned route of the barrier around the Cremisan monastery, fears its construction could lead to a fresh wave of Christian departures. "People are leaving," he says wearily. "But some of us will stay, to pray and resist."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 24, 2012, 10:42:52 PM

Human Rights Watch: Gaza Commits War Crimes
The truth finally comes out: Human Rights Watch says Gaza "armed groups" commit war crimes by targeting Israeli civilians.


AAFont Size
By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 12/24/2012, 8:42 AM




Scene of missile attack, Kiryat Malachi

Flash 90


The Human Rights Watch (HRW) issued a rare condemnation of Gaza terrorists on Monday for war crimes - without the usual "balancing act" of blaming Israel.

HRW did not go so far as to describe "Palestinian armed groups" as terrorists, but the categorical censure of rocket launchers marks a drastic change in the attitude towards Israel and Hamas.

The condemnation also comes at a critical time for Hamas, which claims it "won" the missile war by gaining implicit diplomatic recognition to a certain extent.

"Palestinian armed groups made clear in their statements that harming civilians was their aim last month," wrote HRW's Middle East director Sarah Leah Whitson. "There is simply no legal justification for launching rockets at populated areas."

Between November 14 and 21, Gaza terrorists fired approximately 1,500 missiles at Israel, and more than half of them exploded in Israel, including 60 in populated areas. More than 40 people were either killed or wounded, not including two Gaza Arabs who were killed by their own misfired rockets, Human Rights Watch said.

Human Rights Watch interviewed witnesses, victims, and relatives of people killed and injured by rocket attacks in Israel, as well as Israeli officials from two communities struck by rockets, and a spokesperson for the Israeli emergency medical services.

It "found that armed groups repeatedly fired rockets from densely populated areas, near homes, businesses, and a hotel, unnecessarily placing civilians in the vicinity at grave risk from Israeli counter-fire."

HRW names the "armed groups" as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Resistance Committees' terrorist branches.

The terrorist organizations publicly stated they targeted Israeli civilians as acts of "revenge."

"The laws of war prohibit reprisal attacks against civilians, regardless of unlawful attacks by the other side," Human Rights Watch said. "Statements by armed groups that they deliberately targeted an Israeli city or Israeli civilians are demonstrating their intent to commit war crimes."

It called on Hamas, which took over authority in Gaza in a bloody terrorist militia war with the rival Fatah group five years ago, "to uphold the laws of war" and "...appropriately punish those responsible for serious violations."

HRW also blamed Iran, based on an Iranian military official's statement Iran provided technical information to Gaza terrorists for building their own medium-range Fajr 5 missiles that were fired on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Iran denied having supplied the missiles to Gaza.

"Supplying weaponry to a party to a conflict knowing that it is likely to be used to commit war crimes constitutes the aiding and abetting of war crimes," Human Rights Watch said.

Magen David Adom told the rights group that their medics treated 38 civilians wounded by missiles, three of them severely.

A 50-year-old man in Ashkelon lost a foot that was "traumatically amputated by a rocket blast," and a man in Ofakim was severely wounded when a rocket hit the car in which he was riding.

Human Rights Watch also blamed Gaza terrorists for firing rockets and missiles from densely populated areas.

After interviewing witnesses in Gaza, it confirmed Israeli military reports that terrorists fired rockets 300 feet from international media offices. "I saw it [the rocket] go up and heard it, and then smoke was in the office," a witness said.

During the Pillar of Defense counterterrorist campaign, the IDF bombed the roof of the media center to knock out Hamas communications systems. Foreign media blamed Israel for attacking the media

"One man said he saw a rocket launched from the yard of a house near the Deira Hotel in central Gaza City," HRW added.

"Under the laws of war, parties to an armed conflict are required to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not to place military targets in or near densely populated areas. Human Rights Watch has not been able to identify any instances in November in which a Palestinian armed group warned civilians to evacuate an area before a rocket launch."

It also stated, "The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas where rockets hit, as well as statements by leaders of Palestinian armed groups that population centers were being targeted, indicate that the armed groups deliberately attacked Israeli civilians and civilian objects."

Although the terrorist groups' targetting of civilians was intended to cause major casualties, Israeli casualty figures were low in comparison to the number of missiles launched, due only to the efficacy of the Iron Dome and the construction of shelters throughout the country


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163492 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163492)

Imagine that.......... Pal scumbags being accused of "war crimes"
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 24, 2012, 10:48:01 PM
This is the sort of damage the Jewish state does to civilian areas in Gaza . The dalua family was wiped out.
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo-gallery-the-best-news-photos-of-2012-fotostrecke-91312-16.html

It will never bring the Holocaust dead back to life. Or security to Zionism.
Say what you like about the Brits in the wee six but they never dropped bunker busters on the Falls Road. They never spent GB P 300 million bombing West Tyrone  over 8 days.

I wonder how much longer Israel has as a sovereign state.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 24, 2012, 10:54:40 PM
Soldier who shot terrorist near Egypt border to get citation


Female Caracal Battalion combatant to get special commendation for killing terrorist who infiltrated southern border, killed soldier

Yoav Zitun Published:  12.24.12, 19:37 / Israel News 
 







A female soldier with the Infantry Corps' Caracal Battalion will be awarded a special commendation for bravery, for shooting a terrorist who infiltrated the Israel-Egypt border in September.




The incident claimed the life of IDF Corporal Netanel Yahalomi.



Related stories:

Female sniper: I didn't think twice

Border Guard officer kills Palestinian waving toy gun

IDF seeks to clarify rules of engagement 

 



GOC Southern Command Major-General Tal Russo announced the commendation on Monday.



The sergeant who commanded the platoon during the incident will receive a citation as well.






S. in the field



Corporal S. and her comrade will receive their commendations in a special ceremony that will be held on Tuesday at the IDF's Gaza Division headquarters.



According to the IDF's inquest into the incident, S. and the sergeant spotted the terrorist – who was wearing an explosive vest – as he was running towards the troops, no doubt with the intent to detonate his explosives as soon as he was near them.



S. saw Yahalomi shot and killed right before her eyes. As the battalion paramedics were rushing over, she used her own experience as a Magen David Adom volunteer paramedic to assess his situation, but realized there was nothing she could do to save his life.



Seeing the terrorist run towards the troops deploying to contain border breach, she did not hesitate to engage, firing one killer shot.



This was her first field experience vis-à-vis hostiles.




Another terrorist, also carrying an explosive belt, detonated the charge near the troops, injuring one seriously.



S. herself said that she originally wanted to join the IAF's Unit 669 – the Air Force search and rescue unit – as a paramedic, "But when we started training I realized this is what I wanted to do."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4324045,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4324045,00.html)

Personally, I dont think she deserved a citation, as she needed 2 shots to kill him.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on December 24, 2012, 11:58:30 PM
Ball DeBeaver,

Do you have any neutral sources?

Any at all?

One?

?






P.S.

Muppets are the greatest.

Signed, Muppet.

QED
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 25, 2012, 05:47:11 PM
Why would I need a "neutral" site for a story about an Israeli soldier receiving a citation?

Funny how no other poster is asked for "neutral" sites. It seems any hypocritical lying piece of filth can post whatever they want, without censure, while anyone who even tries to balance the argument, gets vilified.


Shalom.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 25, 2012, 05:53:25 PM

Gaza: Palestinian Rockets Unlawfully Targeted Israeli Civilians

Residents Describe Deaths, Destruction from Attacks


December 24, 2012





Israelis clean up debris in an apartment damaged after a rocket, fired from Gaza, landed in the southern city of Kiryat Malachi on November 15, 2012.

© 2012 Reuters





Related Materials:


Israel/Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Attacks on Palestinian Media

Israel/Gaza: Israeli Airstrike on Home Unlawful





Palestinian armed groups made clear in their statements that harming civilians was their aim. There is simply no legal justification for launching rockets at populated areas.



Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East Director


(Jerusalem) – Palestinian armed groups in Gaza violated the laws of war during the November 2012 fighting by launching hundreds of rockets toward population centers in Israel.

About 1,500 rockets were fired at Israel between November 14 and 21, the Israel Defense Forces reported. At least 800 struck Israel, including 60 that hit populated areas.

The rocket attacks, including the first from Gaza to strike the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem areas, killed three Israeli civilians, wounded at least 38, several seriously, and destroyed civilian property. Rockets that fell short of their intended targets in Israel apparently killed at least two Palestinians in Gaza and wounded others, Human Rights Watch said.

"Palestinian armed groups made clear in their statements that harming civilians was their aim," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "There is simply no legal justification for launching rockets at populated areas."




Under international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, civilians and civilian structures may not be subject to deliberate attacks or attacks that do not discriminate between civilians and military targets. Anyone who commits serious laws-of-war violations intentionally or recklessly is responsible for war crimes.

During and after the November fighting, Human Rights Watch interviewed witnesses, victims, and relatives of people killed and injured by rocket attacks in Israel, as well as Israeli officials from two communities struck by rockets, and a spokesperson for the Israeli emergency medical services.

Human Rights Watch research in Gaza found that armed groups repeatedly fired rockets from densely populated areas, near homes, businesses, and a hotel, unnecessarily placing civilians in the vicinity at grave risk from Israeli counter-fire.

The Palestinian armed groups that are known to have launched rockets at Israel – Hamas' Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Islamic Jihad's Saraya al-Quds Brigades, and the Popular Resistance Committee's Nasser Salahaddin Brigades – at times said that their attacks targeted civilians or they sought to justify the attacks by calling them reprisals for Israeli attacks that killed civilians in Gaza.

On November 18, for example, the al-Qassam Brigades announced that it had launched a Fajr 5 at Tel Aviv "as a response for the ongoing aggression against Palestinian people." The Nasser Salahaddin Brigades stated on November 10 that it had launched four rockets at Israeli communities close to Gaza as a "revenge invoice" for Israeli shelling that had killed four Palestinian civilians.

The laws of war prohibit reprisal attacks against civilians, regardless of unlawful attacks by the other side, Human Rights Watch said. Statements by armed groups that they deliberately targeted an Israeli city or Israeli civilians are demonstrating their intent to commit war crimes.

Hamas, the ruling authority in Gaza, is obligated to uphold the laws of war and should appropriately punish those responsible for serious violations, Human Rights Watch said.

During the November fighting, Palestinian armed groups launched rockets that reached further into Israel than ever before, with eight rockets reportedly striking or being intercepted in the Tel Aviv area and three near Jerusalem. Hamas' al-Qassam Brigades stated on November 22 that armed groups during the fighting had launched 12 long-range rockets, one toward the city of Herzliya in the Tel Aviv district and three toward Jerusalem.

Israel's Internal Security Agency (ISA) said that about half of the rockets fired into Israel were short range, reaching up to 20 kilometers; slightly less than half were medium range, reaching 20 to 60 kilometers, and less than 1 percent were long range reaching over 60 kilometers.

The Israel Defense Forces said that its "Iron Dome" anti-rocket defense system intercepted more than 400 rockets during the November fighting. Of the rockets that hit Israel, the vast majority landed in open areas, causing no injuries or damage.

In addition to the locally made Qassam rockets and Soviet-designed Grad rockets long used by Palestinian armed groups, the Qassam Brigades announced that it had launched a locally made larger rocket, called the M75, as well as Iranian-produced Fajr 5 rockets. Officials from Hamas and Islamic Jihad said that Iran had supplied Palestinian armed groups with military support.

The Guardian newspaper quoted an Iranian military official's statement to Iranian media that Iran had not supplied rockets but had provided technical information to Palestinian armed groups that enabled them to build their own Fajr 5 rockets. The Fajr 5 has a reported range of 75 kilometers, capable of reaching the Tel Aviv metropolitan area from Gaza, with 90 kilograms of explosives in its warhead.

Supplying weaponry to a party to a conflict knowing that it is likely to be used to commit war crimes constitutes the aiding and abetting of war crimes, as demonstrated in the April conviction of former Liberian president Charles Taylor by the Special Court for Sierra Leone.

Civilian Victims
The three Israeli civilian deaths came from one rocket that struck an apartment building in Kiryat Malachi near Ashdod around 8 a.m. on November 15, killing Aharon Smadja, 48, Mira Scharf, 25, and Yitzhak Amsalem, 24. Two men and an 8-month-old baby were wounded.

A statement by Hamas's al-Qassam Brigades claimed responsibility for launching five Grad rockets at Kiryat Malachi that day at 7:50 a.m.

The Israeli emergency medical service, Magen David Adom, said that during the November fighting, medics treated thirty-eight civilians wounded by rockets, three of them severely and four of them moderately. The wounded included a 50-year-old man in Ashkelon, whose foot was traumatically amputated by a rocket blast; a man in Ofakim who was severely wounded when a rocket hit the car in which he was riding; and a 43-year-old man in the Zeelim area who suffered severe injuries to his upper body from rocket shrapnel.

Kfir Rosen, a 26-year-old state employee, described a November 20 rocket blast that injured him in the shoulder and leg:

The things in the house flew around, doors were blown out, the whole building shook. A splinter from the rocket flew past and scraped my throat. After the explosion we couldn't see a thing; it was all full of smoke and dust. A [concrete] block from upstairs hit my shoulder, and another hit the back of my hip.

Rockets also destroyed civilian property including homes and schools. On November 20, a rocket tore the roof off a school in Ashkelon.

Some rockets launched by Palestinian armed groups fell short and struck inside Gaza. On November 16, a rocket that appears to have been launched from within Gaza hit a crowded street in the Gazan town of Jabalya, killing a man, 23, and a boy, 4, and wounding five people.

Launching from Residential Neighborhoods
Human Rights Watch interviewed four witnesses to rocket launches from densely populated areas inside Gaza, and heard second-hand reports about many more. Unlike during previous fighting, armed groups seem to have fired many rockets from underground tunnels, opening a hatch to launch the munition.

One rocket was launched on November 20 at around 1:30 p.m. just off Wehda Street in Gaza City, about 100 meters from the Shawa and Housari Building, where various Palestinian and international media have offices. "I saw it [the rocket] go up and heard it, and then smoke was in the office," a witness said.

One man said he saw a rocket launched from the yard of a house near the Deira Hotel in central Gaza City, though he could not recall the date.

International and Palestinian journalists traveling around Gaza during the fighting told Human Rights Watch that they did not see any Palestinian militants moving in the open, suggesting that Hamas has developed a network of tunnels for personnel and perhaps rockets.

Under the laws of war, parties to an armed conflict are required to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not to place military targets in or near densely populated areas. Human Rights Watch has not been able to identify any instances in November in which a Palestinian armed group warned civilians to evacuate an area before a rocket launch.

The rockets launched by Palestinian groups cannot be aimed precisely enough to target military objectives in or near civilian areas, Human Rights Watch said. Under the laws of war, such weapons are therefore indiscriminate when used against targets in population centers. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas where rockets hit, as well as statements by leaders of Palestinian armed groups that population centers were being targeted, indicate that the armed groups deliberately attacked Israeli civilians and civilian objects.

Human Rights Watch has repeatedly condemned indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli population centers, as well as Hamas' failure to hold anyone accountable for those attacks. Human Rights Watch reiterated those condemnations.

The November 14 to 21 hostilities between Israel and Hamas and armed groups in Gaza involved unlawful attacks on civilians by both sides. Four Israeli civilians and at least 103 Palestinian civilians died during the fighting. The fourth Israeli civilian, an Israeli Bedouin named Alayaan Salem al-Nabari, 33, was killed on November 20 in a mortar attack in the Eshkol Regional Council area that reportedly wounded several soldiers. According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, he was accompanying his cousin who works for a company that builds tents for the military.

"A limited military arsenal that relies on largely indiscriminate rockets does not justify a failure to respect the laws of war, which apply to all sides in a conflict whatever their capabilities," Whitson said. "As the ruling authority in Gaza, Hamas has an obligation to stop unlawful attacks and punish those responsible."



Rocket Attack Cases

Kiryat Malachi
On November 15, at around 8 a.m., a "Grad" type rocket struck the top two floors of a four-story apartment building in Kiryat Malachi, a town of 20,000 people 25 kilometers north of Gaza. The rocket killed Aharon Smadja, 48, Mira Scharf, 25, and Yitzhak Amsalem, 24. The blast wounded Scharf's husband, Shmuel, and the couple's 8-month-old boy. The rocket also wounded Boris Chorona, 52, a deliveryman who had been standing outside the building.

Smadja, a rabbi, lived on the third floor of the building with his wife and their four children, his cousin Rachel Gueta told Human Rights Watch. Gueta, who spoke with residents of the building, said that a warning siren sounded – Israel's "Color Red" system, which alerts residents of incoming rockets – and that Smadja, his wife, and children went downstairs to a designated protected area inside the building. Smadja then heard Amsalem's mother calling her son to come to the protected area, and Smadja went upstairs to get the younger man. The men were reportedly killed while standing next to a window in Amsalem's apartment.

"The rocket hit the fourth floor and penetrated through to the third," destroying the Smadjas' apartment, Gueta told Human Rights Watch. "The police let [Smadja's wife] go back to the apartment once to get some clothes. Her kids said, 'You came back with clothes, but not with dad.'"

Gueta said that Smadja's corpse was badly disfigured from the blast. "The funeral was horrible. The nylon that was supposed to cover the body was not closed properly. And two sirens sounded during the funeral. We had to run to [a protected area in] the synagogue."

Chorona, a furniture deliveryman from Tiberius, was standing outside the apartment building when the rocket hit. Chorona's daughter-in-law, Roxanna, told Human Rights Watch that he was "waiting by the [delivery] truck" when shrapnel from the rocket almost completely severed his hand. Doctors "saved his hand but it doesn't function," she said. "A splinter from the rocket hit the nerve. He can't work. He needs his wife's help to shower and eat." The rocket also badly damaged the truck.

A Kiryat Malachi spokesman, Yossi Peretz, told Human Rights Watch that the rocket was the only one that has hit the town.

Rishon LeZion
On November 20 at about 6 p.m., a rocket that Israeli media identified as an Iranian-produced Fajr 5 struck the top two floors of a seven-story apartment building in Rishon LeZion, a city of 220,000 about 60 kilometers northeast of Gaza.

Kobi Mordechai, 31, a gas station attendant, lived with his wife and three young children in an apartment on the sixth floor. The family and a friend were home when the siren sounded, he said:

We ran into the shelter [in the hallway outside the apartment], all six of us. Then we heard a huge explosion. I went out of the shelter but couldn't see a thing. The electricity was gone, and everything was full of smoke and what looked like fire, so we went back in. Only when someone came to get us and we left the building did I understand it had been my apartment. The rocket was in my house ­– it hit my house directly. The whole place is in ruins; almost nothing is left. We managed to get just a few things out. The kids saw our house on television; they saw their shelter, their toys. They asked their grandmother, "Grandma, will you also not have a house soon?"

Kfir Rosen, a 26-year-old employee of the Rishon LeZion municipality, lived with his parents and brother on the second floor of the building. His parents were not home at the time. Rosen told Human Rights Watch that he heard the "Color Red" early-warning siren and warned his brother to go to their shelter, but his brother said that he wanted to see the rocket intercepted by Israel's "Iron Dome" anti-rocket missile system. He told Human Rights Watch: "I asked myself, 'What's the chance that the rocket will actually fall on me of all places?' and we stayed on the balcony. The siren stopped, and about 20 seconds later we heard an enormous boom." He said that pieces of his building struck him in the shoulder and hip.

Rosen said that the rocket "made a big hole in the balcony on the third floor above mine, and then fell down to the neighbors' lawn. Even the apartments in the adjacent building were damaged by the blast." He said police "only gave us minutes to retrieve a few things" from the building, because "they say the upper floors might fall down, the structure isn't safe." Rosen and his family are living in a hotel while the building is repaired.

The armed group that fired the rocket apparently packed it with anti-personnel shrapnel. "Lots of tiny balls that were inside the rocket flew out all over the place" when it hit, Rosen said. Small holes that he said were caused by the shrapnel had pockmarked the wall of the building and another building across the street.

Ashdod
On November 17 at around 8 a.m., a rocket struck a private home in Ashdod while five people were there, badly damaging the house and wounding the mother. A daughter, 22, who was not in the house at the time, said her father, mother, 14-year-old sister, brother-in-law, and 2-year-old niece were at home when the rocket struck. The woman said she saw the house a few hours after the explosion:

We don't have a shelter at home, so they were all hiding in my room, which is on the bottom floor and has fewer external walls. We had two floors, and the top floor is what saved my family. An iron beam stopped the rocket; it exploded on the top floor. A brick flew and hit my mother in the head. When I arrived at the house, it was just awful. I didn't know that this is what a rocket does to a house; the news doesn't really show you. My little sister's room doesn't have a ceiling anymore. My niece started to wet her bed. After that, when there were [rocket] sirens, she'd go into the shelter shaking and crying.

Rockets struck Ashdod repeatedly during the fighting, including rockets that hit a residential area on November 16 and a store on November 20.

Sderot
Residents of Sderot, a residential community near the Gaza perimeter that was first struck by rockets from Gaza in 2002, described near-hits from rockets that exploded during the eight-day conflict.

"We couldn't leave our houses for a week; we were constantly in the shelters," Shirly Seidler, 25, a journalist with Yedioth South who lives in Sderot, told Human Rights Watch. Residents have 10 to 15 seconds after the rocket siren sounds to enter a protected space, she said.

One rocket hit the house across the street from her home in Sderot:

We ran to the shelter when we heard the siren, then heard two really strong blasts that made the house shake. It had hit the house across the street from ours. There were gas balloons where the rockets had fallen, and we thought we'd have to evacuate. We were running around barefoot in our pajamas, and there were a few moments of real panic, with ambulances, police, police sapper units, and bulldozers digging out the rocket.

Many Sderot residents moved away due to fear of rocket strikes. "I know a lot of people with children who got up and left" during the fighting, Seidler said.

Rotem Ochana, 25, an employee at Sapir College, said that a rocket hit the basketball court across the street from his house. He also witnessed several interceptions of rockets by Israel's "Iron Dome" anti-rocket system on November 16, while driving near the Ad Halom junction outside Ashdod. He said:

The sirens began, so I pulled over, and there was a bus and two other private cars that also stopped on the side of the road with me. There were four sirens in a row, and we saw all the interceptions over our head. I saw two kids running from place to place and a hysterical mother trying to grab them. Once the sirens ended, I got back in the car to get to a shelter, and a fragment from the interception fell and broke my windshield on the driver's side. After that, I didn't leave the house again until everything calmed down. It made me realize how bad it must be on the other side [for Gaza residents] where they have no sirens or shelters.

Ashkelon
In response to questions from Human Rights Watch, the Ashkelon municipality spokesperson said that 36 rockets struck the city during the November fighting, and that Israel's "Iron Dome" system intercepted an additional 60 rockets that would otherwise have hit.

Rockets seriously damaged the Mekif Bet and Ronson schools in the central Kiryat Hachinuch area. Shrapnel from the rocket traumatically amputated a man's foot near Zipora House, a building across the street from the Rambam religious school. Shrapnel also penetrated and severely damaged the car he had been driving, the spokesperson said.


http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/12/24/gaza-palestinian-rockets-unlawfully-targeted-israeli-civilians (http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/12/24/gaza-palestinian-rockets-unlawfully-targeted-israeli-civilians)




Neutral enough?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 25, 2012, 07:06:38 PM
@ BDB

Palestinian Rockets Unlawfully

Thanks for the laugh. since when has the Israeli brutalisation  of Gaza been lawful? Israel's generals are shit scared of being dragged to the International Crinimal Court for war crimes. It is only American indulgence that protects them.

If law meant anything there wouldn't be Jews torturing Palestinians tonight.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on December 25, 2012, 08:02:26 PM
Your article is from Reuters which I would regard as neutral. However you ignore the other links referring to "Unlawful Israeli Attacks on Palestinian Media" and "Israeli Airstrike on Home Unlawful". One side, which you are jumping up and down about, fires 'rockets' which may kill, the other side fires missiles with surgical precision from F16s which kill with incredible efficiency.

This conflict is like watching an Olympic champion boxer punching a quadriplegic in the head, decade after decade. You chose to be proud of that, I find it inhuman.





Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 25, 2012, 08:14:47 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 25, 2012, 08:02:26 PM
Your article is from Reuters which I would regard as neutral. However you ignore the other links referring to "Unlawful Israeli Attacks on Palestinian Media" and "Israeli Airstrike on Home Unlawful". One side, which you are jumping up and down about, fires 'rockets' which may kill, the other side fires missiles with surgical precision from F16s which kill with incredible efficiency.

This conflict is like watching an Olympic champion boxer punching a quadriplegic in the head, decade after decade. You chose to be proud of that, I find it inhuman.

I wouldn't waste of your Christmas day replying to that lad. Seafood isn't much better as he can only see one side too. Your analogy of the boxing natch us spot on though.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on December 25, 2012, 08:39:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 25, 2012, 07:06:38 PM
@ BDB

Palestinian Rockets Unlawfully

Thanks for the laugh. since when has the Israeli brutalisation  of Gaza been lawful? Israel's generals are shit scared of being dragged to the International Crinimal Court for war crimes. It is only American indulgence that protects them.

If law meant anything there wouldn't be Jews torturing Palestinians tonight.

Riddle me this seafood, where is your outrage and Israeli children dying at the hands of Palestinian terrorists?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on December 25, 2012, 08:56:57 PM
How come an Israeli firing rockets into a high rise block of flats isnt a "terrorist"?
Are Palestinians not capable of being "terrorised" by seeing hundreds of civilians being blown to pieces by cowards flying in armour plated helicopters and enjoying immunity from censure or prosecution due to the one sided nature of the US Government?
Meanwhile they go on stealing land from the Palestinians ... wonder where they learned that from...  the U S of course  ;)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 25, 2012, 09:14:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 25, 2012, 08:56:57 PM
How come an Israeli firing rockets into a high rise block of flats isnt a "terrorist"?
Are Palestinians not capable of being "terrorised" by seeing hundreds of civilians being blown to pieces by cowards flying in armour plated helicopters and enjoying immunity from censure or prosecution due to the one sided nature of the US Government?
Meanwhile they go on stealing land from the Palestinians ... wonder where they learned that from...  the U S of course  ;)

Personally I never use the term "terrorist" but if it is to be used then I see no reason it should not be used to describe israeli see soldiers and politicians.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 25, 2012, 09:14:53 PM
Quote from: stew on December 25, 2012, 08:39:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 25, 2012, 07:06:38 PM
@ BDB

Palestinian Rockets Unlawfully

Thanks for the laugh. since when has the Israeli brutalisation  of Gaza been lawful? Israel's generals are shit scared of being dragged to the International Crinimal Court for war crimes. It is only American indulgence that protects them.

If law meant anything there wouldn't be Jews torturing Palestinians tonight.

Riddle me this seafood, where is your outrage and Israeli children dying at the hands of Palestinian terrorists?

Everyone who dies prematurely because of Zionism is a tragedy. The real story from  Israel is that so much money is spent on the military occupation instead of health and social welfare. Ordinary Jews are the losers.

And things belong in perspective too.

Israeli Jewish kids who die violently are more likely to be killed by their parents or in traffic accidents. Palestinians are not responsible for the vast majority of deaths of Israeli children.

If Israel really cared about the handful of Jewish victims of "Palestinian terrorism', if it thought it had a cast iron case, it would bring Hamas to the ICC . But Israel doesn't want any of its people doing time for war crimes. Because there is no law for Gaza and Israeli Jews in uniform can kill whoever they want there. 

And Israel insists it is just misunderstood - if the Palestinians didn't hate their children there could be peace tomorrow.
But the facts look different on the ground

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/25/israel-approves-settlement-units-jerusalem
 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 25, 2012, 09:44:11 PM
Denying people basic rights because of their religion is evil. It wasn't right in NI in the 1960s or in Georgia during Jim Crow and isn't right today in Palestine.
The Jews who run Israel control a system that is fundamentally evil.
Focusing on things like Jewish deaths due to Palestinian violence ( less than 10 this year) is all part of the system. Give them another few years and there will be no possibility of a Palestinian state. Then the world will be asked to accept apartheid run by Jews and give it their blessing.

It is all a total car crash.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on December 25, 2012, 09:57:40 PM
QuoteThe Jews who run Israel control a system that is fundamentally evil.

We don't need to look too far back in history to see the fundamental evil that anti-semites like you are
capable of perpetrating.

Thankfully there are a few on here that can distinguish between those who genuinely have an interest in the palestinian cause versus those, like you,  who use it as a cover for their anti-semitism.

 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 25, 2012, 10:24:49 PM
There are some on here seafood that will be agreeing with a lot of what you say. To them I ask to read this little nugget and it implies...

Israeli Jewish kids who die violently are more likely to be killed by their parents or in traffic accidents. Palestinians are not responsible for the vast majority of deaths of Israeli children.

So as long as Palestinian militants keep murder of Israeli children down to a handful then all is well. You're a sick individual and you should be booted out of any Palestinian support group you are a member off.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on December 26, 2012, 01:18:03 AM
seafoid/seafood/adolf...its all the one really
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 26, 2012, 09:03:23 AM
Launching from Residential Neighborhoods
Human Rights Watch interviewed four witnesses to rocket launches from densely populated areas inside Gaza, and heard second-hand reports about many more. Unlike during previous fighting, armed groups seem to have fired many rockets from underground tunnels, opening a hatch to launch the munition.

One rocket was launched on November 20 at around 1:30 p.m. just off Wehda Street in Gaza City, about 100 meters from the Shawa and Housari Building, where various Palestinian and international media have offices. "I saw it [the rocket] go up and heard it, and then smoke was in the office," a witness said.

One man said he saw a rocket launched from the yard of a house near the Deira Hotel in central Gaza City, though he could not recall the date.

International and Palestinian journalists traveling around Gaza during the fighting told Human Rights Watch that they did not see any Palestinian militants moving in the open, suggesting that Hamas has developed a network of tunnels for personnel and perhaps rockets.

Under the laws of war, parties to an armed conflict are required to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not to place military targets in or near densely populated areas. Human Rights Watch has not been able to identify any instances in November in which a Palestinian armed group warned civilians to evacuate an area before a rocket launch.
The rockets launched by Palestinian groups cannot be aimed precisely enough to target military objectives in or near civilian areas, Human Rights Watch said. Under the laws of war, such weapons are therefore indiscriminate when used against targets in population centers. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas where rockets hit, as well as statements by leaders of Palestinian armed groups that population centers were being targeted, indicate that the armed groups deliberately attacked Israeli civilians and civilian objects.

Human Rights Watch has repeatedly condemned indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli population centers, as well as Hamas' failure to hold anyone accountable for those attacks. Human Rights Watch reiterated those condemnations.
.............................................................................................

I guess some of you missed that bit.

The palestinian bid for statehood is a double edged sword, as it means that your wee mates will have to sign up to treaties that strictly prohibit the type of indiscriminate acts of murder they have come to enjoy so much. Then we will see who ends up in the ICC.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 26, 2012, 01:39:15 PM
Oh my giddy aunt, where the hell do you begin to disseminate this anti semitic, ill informed, warped, hate filled piece of garbage?

Quote from: seafoid on December 25, 2012, 09:14:53 PM


Everyone who dies prematurely because of Zionism is a tragedy. The real story from  Israel is that so much money is spent on the military occupation instead of health and social welfare. Ordinary Jews are the losers.
How do you come to the conclusion that Israelis that have been murdered by palestinians, actually died because of a lack of funding to their health service?

QuoteAnd things belong in perspective too.

Israeli Jewish kids who die violently are more likely to be killed by their parents or in traffic accidents. Palestinians are not responsible for the vast majority of deaths of Israeli children.
Is that you getting things into perspective? Holy good f**k!

Quote

If Israel really cared about the handful of Jewish victims of "Palestinian terrorism', if it thought it had a cast iron case, it would bring Hamas to the ICC . But Israel doesn't want any of its people doing time for war crimes. Because there is no law for Gaza and Israeli Jews in uniform can kill whoever they want there. 
I much prefer the Israeli form of summary justice to anything ICC can deliver, but now that PA have got observer status, they will be easier to bring to justice at the Hague for their continual violations against innocent civilians.
Quote
And Israel insists it is just misunderstood - if the Palestinians didn't hate their children there could be peace tomorrow.
But the facts look different on the ground

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/25/israel-approves-settlement-units-jerusalem

I have never heard any Israeli say palestinians hate their children. What I have seen many times is the way palestinians use their children as cannon fodder, the way they indoctrinate them to hate jews and how they use them as human shields. They don't hate them, they use them as weapons.

It really concerns me that you continually refer to Israelis as "jews" or "zionists", not as "Israelis". Why is this? I don't see anyone refer to palestinians as "muslims". Do you hate Israelis because of their perceived religion? Are you aware that over 20% of Israeli citizens are not jews, and that Israeli arabs have the highest life expectancy, coupled with with some of the best healthcare, in the middle east? The same healthcare that accounts for the deaths of so many "jews."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 26, 2012, 02:46:43 PM
Have you ever heard Israelis justify the shooting of Palestinian children by saying they would be future terrorists? I have. Why was Israel so afraid of Palestine being recognised at the UN, so much so that it spent weeks before lobbying every country with a vote. What are they afraid of? Maybe they are afraid they will be shown for the blood thirsty savages that they are.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on December 26, 2012, 06:49:33 PM
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/2012-11-18/why-gaza-must-suffer-again/ (http://www.jonathan-cook.net/2012-11-18/why-gaza-must-suffer-again/)

Why Gaza must suffer again
18 NOVEMBER 2012

The four guilty parties behind Israel's attack

Israeli Occupation Archive – 18 November 2012

A short interview broadcast by CNN late last week featuring two participants – a Palestinian in Gaza and an Israeli within range of the rocket attacks – did not follow the usual script.

For once, a media outlet dropped its role as gatekeeper, there to mediate and therefore impair our understanding of what is taking place between Israel and the Palestinians, and inadvertently became a simple window on real events.

The usual aim of such "balance" interviews relating to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is twofold: to reassure the audience that both sides of the story are being presented fairly; and to dissipate potential outrage at the deaths of Palestinian civilians by giving equal time to the suffering of Israelis.

But the deeper function of such coverage in relation to Gaza, given the media's assumption that Israeli bombs are simply a reaction to Hamas terror, is to redirect the audience's anger exclusively towards Hamas. In this way, Hamas is made implicitly responsible for the suffering of both Israelis and Palestinians.

The dramatic conclusion to CNN's interview appears, however, to have otherwise trumped normal journalistic considerations.

The pre-recorded interview via Skype opened with Mohammed Sulaiman in Gaza. From what looked like a cramped room, presumably serving as a bomb shelter, he spoke of how he was too afraid to step outside his home. Throughout the interview, we could hear the muffled sound of bombs exploding in the near-distance. Mohammed occasionally glanced nervously to his side.

The other interviewee, Nissim Nahoom, an Israeli official in Ashkelon, also spoke of his family's terror, arguing that it was no different from that of Gazans. Except in one respect, he hastened to add: things were worse for Israelis because they had to live with the knowledge that Hamas rockets were intended to harm civilians, unlike the precision missiles and bombs Israel dropped on Gaza.

The interview returned to Mohammed. As he started to speak, the bombing grew much louder. He pressed on, saying he would not be silenced by what was taking place outside. The interviewer, Isha Sesay, interrupted – seemingly unsure of what she was hearing – to inquire about the noise.

Then, with an irony that Mohammed could not have appreciated as he spoke, he began to say he refused to be drawn into a comparison about whose suffering was worse when an enormous explosion threw him from his chair and severed the internet connection. Switching back to the studio, Sesay reassured viewers that Mohammed had not been hurt.

The bombs, however, spoke more eloquently than either Mohammed or Nissim.

If Mohammed had had more time, he might have been able to challenge Nissim's point about Israelis' greater fears as well as pointing to another important difference between his and his Israeli interlocutor's respective plights.

The far greater accuracy of Israel's weaponry in no way confers peace of mind. The fact is that a Palestinian civilian in Gaza is in far more danger of being killed or injured by one of Israel's precision armaments than an Israeli is by one of the more primitive rockets being launched out of Gaza.

In Operation Cast Lead, Israel's attack on Gaza in winter 2008-09, three Israelis were killed by rocket attacks, and six soldiers died in fighting. In Gaza, meanwhile, nearly 1,400 Palestinians were killed, of whom at least 1,000 were not involved in hostilities, according to the Israeli group B'Tselem. Many, if not most, of those civilians were killed by so-called precision bombs and missiles.

If Israelis like Nissim really believe they have to endure greater suffering because the Palestinians lack accurate weapons, then maybe they should start lobbying Washington to distribute its military hardware more equitably, so that the Palestinians can receive the same allocations of military aid and armaments as Israel.

Or alternatively, they could lobby their own government to allow Iran and Hizbullah to bring into Gaza more sophisticated technology than can currently be smuggled in via the tunnels.

The other difference is that, unlike Nissim and his family, most people in Gaza have nowhere else to flee. And the reason that they must live under the rain of bombs in one of the most densely populated areas on earth is because Israel – and to a lesser extent Egypt – has sealed the borders to create a prison for them.

Israel has denied Gaza a port, control of its airspace and the right of its inhabitants to move to the other Palestinian territory recognised by the Oslo accords, the West Bank. It is not, as Israel's supporters allege, that Hamas is hiding among Palestinian civilians; rather, Israel has forced Palestinian civilians to live in a tiny strip of land that Israel turned into a war zone.

So who is chiefly to blame for the escalation that currently threatens the nearly two million inhabitants of Gaza? Though Hamas' hands are not entirely clean, there are culprits far more responsible than the Palestinian militants.

First culprit: The state of Israel

The inciting cause of the latest confrontation between Israel and Hamas has little to do with the firing of rockets, whether by Hamas or the other Palestinian factions.

The conflict predates the rockets – and even the creation of Hamas – by decades. It is the legacy of Israel's dispossession of Palestinians in 1948, forcing many of them from their homes in what is now Israel into the tiny Gaza Strip. That original injustice has been compounded by the occupation Israel has not only failed to end but has actually intensified in recent years with its relentless siege of the small strip of territory.

Israel has been progressively choking the life out of Gaza, destroying its economy, periodically wrecking its infrastructure, denying its inhabitants freedom of movement and leaving its population immiserated.

One only needs to look at the restrictions on Gazans' access to their own sea. Here we are not considering their right to use their own coast to leave and enter their territory, simply their right to use their own waters to feed themselves. According to one provision of the Oslo accords, Gaza was given fishing rights up to 20 miles off its shore. Israel has slowly whittled that down to just three miles, with Israeli navy vessels firing on fishing boats even inside that paltry limit.

Palestinians in Gaza are entitled to struggle for their right to live and prosper. That struggle is a form of self-defence – not aggression – against occupation, oppression, colonialism and imperialism.

Second culprit: Binyamin Netanyahu and Ehud Barak

The Israeli prime minister and defence minister have taken a direct and personal hand, above and beyond Israel's wider role in enforcing the occupation, in escalating the violence.

Israel and its supporters always make it their first priority when Israel launches a new war of aggression to obscure the timeline of events as a way to cloud responsibility. The media willingly regurgitates such efforts at misdirection.

In reality, Israel engineered a confrontation to provide the pretext for a "retaliatory" attack, just as it did four years earlier in Operation Cast Lead. Then Israel broke a six-month ceasefire agreed with Hamas by staging a raid into Gaza that killed six Hamas members.

This time, on 8 November, Israel achieved the same end by invading Gaza again, on this occasion following a two-week lull in tensions. A 13-year-old boy out playing football was killed by an Israeli bullet.

Tit-for-tat violence over the following days resulted in the injury of eight Israelis, including four soldiers, and the deaths of five Palestinian civilians, and the wounding of dozens more in Gaza.

On November 12, as part of efforts to calm things down, the Palestinian militant factions agreed a truce that held two days – until Israel broke it by assassinating Hamas military leader Ahmed Jabari. The rockets out of Gaza that followed these various Israeli provocations have been misrepresented as the casus belli.

But if Netanyahu and Barak are responsible for creating the immediate pretext for an attack on Gaza, they are also criminally negligent for failing to pursue an opportunity to secure a much longer truce with Hamas.

We now know, thanks to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, that in the period leading up to Jabari's execution Egypt had been working to secure a long-term truce between Israel and Hamas. Jabari was apparently eager to agree to it.

Baskin, who was intimately involved in the talks, was a credible conduit between Israel and Hamas because he had played a key role last year in getting Jabari to sign off on a prisoner exchange that led to the release of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Baskin noted in the Haaretz newspaper that Jabari's assassination "killed the possibility of achieving a truce and also the Egyptian mediators' ability to function."

The peace activist had already met Barak to alert him to the truce, but it seems the defence minister and Netanyahu had more pressing concerns than ending the tensions between Israel and Hamas.

What could have been more important than finding a mechanism for saving lives, on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides. Baskin offers a clue: "Those who made the decision must be judged by the voters, but to my regret they will get more votes because of this."

It seems Israel's general election, due in January, was uppermost in the minds of Netanyahu and Barak.

A lesson learnt by Israeli leaders over recent years, as Baskin notes, is that wars are vote-winners solely for the right wing. That should be clear to no one more than Netanyahu. He has twice before become prime minister on the back of wars waged by his more "moderate" political opponents as they faced elections.

Shimon Peres, a dove by no standard except a peculiar Israeli one, launched an attack on Lebanon, Operation Grapes of Wrath, that cost him the election in 1996. And centrists Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni again helped Netanyahu to victory by attacking Gaza in late 2008.

Israelis, it seems, prefer a leader who does not bother to wrap a velvet glove around his iron fist.

Netanyahu was already forging ahead in the polls before he minted Operation Pillar of Defence. But the electoral fortunes of Ehud Barak, sometimes described as Netanyahu's political Siamese twin and a military mentor to Netanyahu from their commando days together, have been looking grim indeed.

Barak desperately needed a military rather than a political campaign to boost his standing and get his renegade Independence party across the electoral threshold and into the Israeli parliament. It seems Netanyahu, thinking he had little to lose himself from an operation in Gaza, may have been willing to oblige.

Third culprit: The Israeli army

Israel's army has become addicted to two doctrines it calls the "deterrence principle" and its "qualitative military edge". Both are fancy ways of saying that, like some mafia heavy, the Israeli army wants to be sure it alone can "whack" its enemies. Deterrence, in Israeli parlance, does not refer to a balance of fear but Israel's exclusive right to use terror.

The amassing of rockets by Hamas, therefore, violates the Israeli army's own sense of propriety, just as Hizbullah's stockpiling does further north. Israel wants its neighbouring enemies to have no ability to resist its dictates.

Doubtless the army was only too ready to back Netanyahu and Barak's electioneering if it also provided an opportunity to clean out some of Hamas' rocket arsenal.

But there is another strategic reason why the Israeli army has been chomping at the bit to crack down on Hamas again.

Haaretz's two chief military correspondents explained the logic of the army's position last week, shortly after Israel killed Jabari. They reported: "For a long time now Israel has been pursuing a policy of containment in the Gaza Strip, limiting its response to the prolonged effort on the part of Hamas to dictate new rules of the game surrounding the fence, mainly in its attempt to prevent the entry of the IDF into the 'perimeter,' the strip of a few hundred meters wide to the west of the fence."

In short, Hamas has angered Israeli commanders by refusing to sit quietly while the army treats large areas of Gaza as its playground and enters at will.

Israel has created what it terms a "buffer zone" inside the fence around Gaza, often up to a kilometre wide, that Palestinians cannot enter but the Israeli army can use as a gateway for launching its "incursions". Remote-controlled guns mounted on Israeli watch-towers around Gaza can open fire on any Palestinian who is considered to have approached too close.

Three incidents shortly before Jabari's extra-judicial execution illustrate the struggle for control over Gaza's interior.

On November 4, the Israeli army shot dead a young Palestinian man inside Gaza as he was reported to have approached the fence. Palestinians say he was mentally unfit and that he could have been saved by medics had ambulances not been prevented from reaching him for several hours.

On November 8, as already noted, the Israeli army made an incursion into Gaza to attack Palestinian militants and in the process shot dead a boy playing football.

And on November 10, two days later, Palestinian fighters fired an anti-tank missile that destroyed a Jeep patrolling the perimeter fence around Gaza, wounding four soldiers.

As the Haaretz reporters note, Hamas appears to be trying to demonstrate that it has as much right to defend its side of the "border fence" as Israel does on the other side.

The army's response to this display of native impertinence has been to inflict a savage form of collective punishment on Gaza to remind Hamas who is boss.

Fourth culprit: The White House

It is near-impossible to believe that Netanyahu decided to revive Israel's policy of extra-judicial executions of Hamas leaders – and bystanders – without at least consulting the White House. Israel clearly also held off from beginning its escalation until after the US elections, restricting itself, as it did in Cast Lead, to the "downtime" in US politics between the elections and the presidential inauguration.

That was designed to avoid overly embarrassing the US president. A fair assumption must be that Barack Obama approved Israel's operation in advance. Certainly he has provided unstinting backing since, despite the wildly optimistic scenarios painted by some analysts that he was likely to seek revenge on Netanyahu in his second term.

Also, it should be remembered that Israel's belligerence towards Gaza, and the easing of domestic pressure on Israel to negotiate with Hamas or reach a ceasefire, has largely been made possible because Obama forced US taxpayers to massively subsidise Israel's rocket interception system, Iron Dome, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Iron Dome is being used to shoot down rockets out of Gaza that might otherwise have landed in built-up areas of Israel. Israel and the White House have therefore been able to sell US munificence on the interception of rockets as a humanitarian gesture.

But the reality is that Iron Dome has swung Israel's cost-benefit calculus sharply in favour of greater aggression because it is has increased Israel's sense of impunity. Whatever Hamas' ability to smuggle into Gaza more sophisticated weaponry, Israel believes it can neutralise that threat using interception systems.

Far from being a humanitarian measure, Iron Dome has simply served to ensure that Gaza will continue to suffer a far larger burden of deaths and injuries in confrontations with Israel and that such confrontations will continue to occur regularly.

Here are the four main culprits. They should be held responsible for the deaths of Palestinians and Israelis in the days and, if Israel expands its operation, weeks ahead.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 26, 2012, 09:06:33 PM
OH MY GOOD GOD! How could I have been so wrong about the terror these poor wee mites have suffered.  ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on December 26, 2012, 09:28:41 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 26, 2012, 09:06:33 PM
OH MY GOOD GOD! How could I have been so wrong about the terror these poor wee mites have suffered.  ::)

That says it all.

You see dead Palestinians as 'wee mites'.

You see them as something less than human, or more importantly less than you.

This is exactly how the Irish dying on the side of the roads were seen by the British elite in An Gorta Mór and exactly how operatives of the Nazis persuaded themselves that actions against Jews in WW2 somehow were justified and not the horrific crimes their consciences must have told them they were. It was the same mentality that allowed people to keep slaves in the Carribbean and the States in the 19th century and the same thinking that let Haile Mengistu justify spending €155 million on celebrations for his Derg party's 10th anniversary in power in Ethiopia, during the 1984 Famine.

You are part of quite a select group.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 26, 2012, 11:01:51 PM
I think you'll find that it is the likes of yourself who portray the Palestinians as poor defenceless wee mites, while the big bad Israelis are evil baby killers. The Palestinians aren't as downtrodden by Israel as they claim.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 26, 2012, 11:04:40 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 26, 2012, 11:01:51 PM
I think you'll find that it is the likes of yourself who portray the Palestinians as poor defenceless wee mites, while the big bad Israelis are evil baby killers. The Palestinians aren't as downtrodden by Israel as they claim.

Sure maybe the Jews weren't as badly treated by the Nazis as they let on either?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 26, 2012, 11:34:15 PM
Maybe Cromwell and Thatcher were just misunderstood
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: charlieTully on December 27, 2012, 01:13:38 AM
This is probably the most informative thread on this discussion board, but the last two comments risk demeaning it beyond repair.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: JimStynes on December 27, 2012, 01:30:15 AM
Cant believe so many people are getting wound up by BDB. He is a WUM and everyone is taking the bait.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 04:01:40 AM
Yet Israel still gets vilified.

Hamas forbids journalists from working with Israeli mediaBy JTA

LAST UPDATED: 12/26/2012 21:01


The Hamas government in Gaza has forbidden local journalists from working with Israeli media outlets.

The weekly Cabinet meeting in Gaza on Tuesday, decided to ban Palestinian journalists from working "with all Zionist media and journalists," which it declared "hostile," it announced in a statement, the French news agency AFP reported.

The Cabinet has forbidden the local journalists from working for Israeli media and television stations.

It is the first time the Hamas government has required such action, according to AFP.

There is no similar requirement in the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas has ruled Gaza since 2006.

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=297435 (http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=297435)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 05:25:43 AM
Israel has a lot in common with the Sandy Row


http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/bye-the-beloved-country-why-almost-40-percent-of-israelis-are-thinking-of-emigrating.premium-1.484945#

When the security threat mounts, the Israeli public views leaving as treason, and few emigrate at such times. Indeed, according to the researchers, few Israelis leave for ideological reasons, such as the occupation, antidemocratic legislation or even the emergency call-up orders, which have been widespread in recent years.

According to the State of the Nation Report for 2011-2012, published last month by the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel, the situation of the country's young working families has worsened in the past five years (not taking into account Arab and Jewish ultra-Orthodox families, whose situation has been even more aggravated).

Figures issued by the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, of which Israel is a member, show that Israel is lagging in most of the relevant indices. For example, Israel is 29th out of 36 countries in terms of investment in education. In health investment, Israel is third from last. Israel is in 25th place in the quality-of-life index and in last place in terms of government administration.

"What's happening today in Israel recalls the process undergone by Jerusalem," says Tomer Treves, a cofounder of URU (Wake Up), an association that promotes a civil agenda for the country. Jerusalem, he explains, "lives every possible conflict every day. Those who left the city over the years were people able to make a living, and the city grew poor. Without state funding it would not be sustainable."

Treves terms this "the moving of the capable." People are leaving, he says, "because of what became of the Zionist idea. The moment the tie with Israel is weakened, the point of remaining is measured by the quality of life, and Israel is not in a good place from that point of view."

The reason the local connection has become weakened, Manella says, is because the state itself unraveled the thread that links it to its citizens, in a decades-long process. He cites unequal army service, religious radicalization, the economic abandonment of the disadvantaged, and sweeping privatization.

The country has become more religious, he believes, and people who define themselves as liberals are finding it more difficult to connect with it. Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar, he adds, is trying to deepen people's connection with the state but is doing so by evoking controversial symbols, such as sending schoolchildren on mandatory visits to Rachel's Tomb in the territories. "That is a big mistake in terms of understanding the new ties that link people in the open world," Manella says.


...

Demography refers not only births but also to those who remain here to live," he explains. "At present, it is still possible to shift the country onto a sustainable track, but in another decade that will no longer be possible. Today, half the children in Israel receive a lower-level education than is the case in Third World countries, and that number is only increasing. That's what the elections should be about."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 27, 2012, 07:31:23 AM
On this day 4 years ago, Israel launched a 23 day massacre, Operation Cast Lead. At the end of the 3 weeks, 1,400 Palestinians were killed, 400 of them children. 5,000 others were injured. During the attacks all exits out of Gaza were sealed and they didn't stand a chance. It was like shooting fish in a barrel.

Not one single person has been convicted of murder, and if there was any justice in this world, the top brass of the IOF should be behind bars.

Today, I remember the victims and their families with dignity.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 08:25:42 AM
Cast Lead remembered

Dr Ezzedin Abu el Aish gives an  interview to Israeli TV while the Israeli Army blows up his home and kills his daughters   

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UxJWdCwOpc

Of course the tramps won't pay compensation

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2010/12/2010122692144549633.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 08:35:59 AM
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Golda_Meir

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

What bothers me most is not that Arabs kill our children, but that they force us to kill theirs.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 09:11:50 AM
Here is Israeli President Shimon Peres (born in Poland)  on Dutch television, explaining why so many Palestinian children were killed during Cast Lead (takes him just one minute):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8XQspTXz_A


And he is a great man for quotes

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-unspoken-alliance-by-sasha-polakow-suransky/

(Shimon Peres) assured the president of Cameroon that "a Jew who accepts apartheid ceases to be a Jew. A Jew and racism do not go together"
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 27, 2012, 11:37:21 AM
Quote from: charlieTully on December 27, 2012, 01:13:38 AM
This is probably the most informative thread on this discussion board, but the last two comments risk demeaning it beyond repair.
Mine was extreme sarcasm, I didn't think I'd have to put up a sign post.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 11:50:16 AM
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2012/12/23/the-crucifixion-of-chuck-hagel/

Outside the Beltway, Hagel is a logical choice for SecDef: inside that bubble of evil, he's a candidate for demonization — and that should tell us everything that's wrong with our degenerate political class.

The atmospherics surrounding this controversy remind me of the mood that prevailed in Washington and much of the country in the run up to the invasion of Iraq: once again, we are confronted with fabricated "evidence"that some Middle Eastern country is assembling "weapons of mass destruction."Once again, anyone who looks like they're trying to avoid war rather than provoke it is smeared as "unpatriotic," and worse. The only difference is that, this time, the War Party isn't bothering to hide the fact that we will be fighting Israel's war.

We have the Israeli Prime Minister calling almost daily for a military strike. There he is at the UN with his ridiculous cartoon of a"chart," demanding we put American lives on the line in order to save Israel from "another Holocaust" — an absurd contention about a nation that has handily beaten its enemies in every war it has ever fought, and which is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons. And we have the Emergency Committee for Israel leading the charge against Hagel, with the Weekly Standard broadcasting the threat of one anonymous coward of a Senate aide, who shrieked:

"Send us Hagel, and we will make sure every American knows he's an anti-Semite."

So if you believe, like Hagel, that war with Iran is "not a viable, feasible, responsible" option — a view he expressed some years ago, when we were still mired in Iraq — then you're not only "not an option" for Secretary of Defense, you're a Jew-hating bigot. Or, at least, some kind of bigot — maybe a "homophobe." Or whatever
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 02:39:20 PM
This is what happens when you stop bombing Israel


Israel to ease Gaza ban on construction material



Palestinian official says private companies, individuals now allowed to import previously restricted construction materials following Egyptian-mediated truce deal between Hamas, Israel. Defense Ministry: More eases if calm persists AFP Published: 12.26.12, 18:44 / Israel News



Israel is to begin allowing materials for private construction into Gaza, easing its blockade under the terms of a truce deal, Israeli and Palestinian officials said on Wednesday.


The decision will allow private companies and individuals to import construction materials that were previously restricted exclusively to international aid groups under the terms of Israel's blockade.


It comes after an Egyptian-mediated truce deal between Hamas and Israel that ended eight days of fighting last month.


"From Sunday, up to 20 trucks will bring in gravel for the commercial sector daily, except on Friday and Saturday... through the Kerem Shalom crossing in south-east Gaza," Palestinian official Raed Fattuh told AFP.


"This is the first time Israel will allow the import of gravel for the private sector since the blockade began in mid-2007."





Israel has restricted the import of goods into Gaza since 2006, when Palestinian terrorists captured an Israeli soldier in a cross border raid.


The blockade was tightened a year later after Hamas seized Gaza from its Fatah rivals in fighting that erupted after the Islamist group won legislative elections.


Guy Inbar, a spokesman for the Israeli Defense Ministry body that coordinates with the Palestinians, confirmed the new policy, saying the deal would also allow the import of heavy construction vehicles, including bulldozers.



"It's the first time since 2007. It's part of the dialogue, the conversation that we have with the Egyptian side and because of the calm," he said.


"If the calm will continue, then more eases will go through. We're also working on improving the electricity system in the north of Gaza in order to promote and to improve the electricity in that area," he added.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...325036,00.html
     
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 03:06:37 PM
Zionism today- it doesn't matter whether you bomb Israel or not

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/2-279-calories-per-person-how-israel-made-sure-gaza-didn-t-starve.premium-1.470419

Israel court order forces state to reveal dry figures behind Gaza blockade
Israel's 'red lines' document for food consumption in the coastal Strip determined that 2,279 calories per person would keep Gazans from starving;

After a three-and-a-half-year legal battle waged by the Gisha human rights organization, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories has finally released a 2008 document that detailed its "red lines" for "food consumption in the Gaza Strip."

The document calculates the minimum number of calories necessary, in COGAT's view, to keep Gaza residents from malnutrition at a time when Israel was tightening its restrictions on the movement of people and goods in and out of the Strip, including food products and raw materials. The document states that Health Ministry officials were involved in drafting it, and the calculations were based on "a model formulated by the Ministry of Health ... according to average Israeli consumption," though the figures were then "adjusted to culture and experience" in Gaza.

COGAT, appealing a District Court ruling to release the document, stated that it was merely a rough draft, that it was never actually implemented, and that it did not guide Israeli policy in practice. In its objection to the document's publication, COGAT argued that there was no reason to disclose what was essentially internal staff work, a mere proposal that was never actually put into effect. In fact, COGAT told Haaretz on Tuesday, after the document was drafted, the agency never even held a single discussion of it.

But the court disagreed, and on its orders, the document (in two different versions, both from January 2008) was given to Gisha two weeks ago. It is now being published here for the first time. Its very existence was also first reported in Haaretz, in a June 2009 article by Uri Blau and Yotam Feldman.

In September 2007, the cabinet, then headed by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, decided to tighten restrictions on the movement of people and goods to and from the Gaza Strip. The "red lines" document was written about four months afterward.

The cabinet decision stated that "the movement of goods into the Gaza Strip will be restricted; the supply of gas and electricity will be reduced; and restrictions will be imposed on the movement of people from the Strip and to it." In addition, exports from Gaza would be forbidden entirely. However, the resolution added, the restrictions should be tailored to avoid a "humanitarian crisis."

At a High Court hearing on Gisha's petition against this policy, government attorneys Gilad Sherman and Dana Briskman, backed by an affidavit from Col. Shlomi Mukhtar of COGAT, explained that "it is the state's right to decide that it doesn't intend to have economic ties with, or provide economic assistance to, the other party in the conflict, and to adopt a policy of 'economic warfare.'"

From time to time, COGAT officers revised the lists. Thus in late 2008, for instance, COGAT began allowing the import of shampoo ¬ though conditioner was still banned. In 2009, plain processed hummus was taken off the banned list, but hummus with pine nuts was still off-limits.

To obey the cabinet's order to avoid a "humanitarian crisis," COGAT officers devised what they called "sensors" to warn them if there was a risk of impending malnutrition or an impending shortage of the permitted goods. Thus in addition to the "red lines," they produced two other documents: a model for estimating inventories of essential staples in Gaza, and a procedure for allowing the entry of goods into the Strip.

In practice, COGAT says, policy was guided by the inventory estimation model and the procedure for the entry of goods, not by the "red lines" document.

Following another petition to the High Court by Gisha, these two documents were published by Haaretz in October 2010.

"The quantification wasn't done in order to arrive at a minimum threshold or restrict the quantities, but the opposite ¬ to ensure that there was no shortage," a COGAT official maintained Tuesday.

Gisha, however, doubts the claim that the "red lines" document was never actually used. For instance, it said, the prosecution evidently relied on the minimum threshold the document sets for meat (300 calves imported each week) when it argued in court against Gisha's request that the quota be increased during the Eid al-Fitr holiday, at the end of Ramadan. COGAT responded that this particular figure was part of the inventory estimation model, and therefore that it was in use.

International humanitarian organizations use a model called the Sphere standards to gauge a population's needs and determine the aid that should sent to it in an emergency (whether war or natural disaster). This model is far more complex and less mathematical than the "red lines." But the most significant difference is that the "red lines" and the inventory estimation model were both devised by the very party that deliberately created the emergency situation, and that effectively controls both the territory and the population.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 03:17:37 PM
Would you like me to repost something from 2 months ago too?  ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 03:19:27 PM
"From Sunday, up to 20 trucks will bring in gravel for the commercial sector daily"

20 trucks a day - 13 tonnes per truck- 260 tonnes per day. Big swinging circumcised mickey

How many tonnes would Limerick have gone through in one average day while the Tiger was working?
Gaza  has 20+ times the population of Limerick.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 03:22:43 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 03:17:37 PM
Would you like me to repost something from 2 months ago too?  ::)

Nothing has changed in 2 months.
It's the system that's rotten. Israel is run by the same sociopaths. The same mindless cruelty.

And it is all supposed to be the fulfilment of God's covenant with the Jewish people. You couldn't make it up .  The Messiah is due any day now.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 03:22:43 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 03:17:37 PM
Would you like me to repost something from 2 months ago too?  ::)

Nothing has changed in 2 months.
It's the system that's rotten. Israel is run by the same sociopaths. The same mindless cruelty.

And it is all supposed to be the fulfilment of God's covenant with the Jewish people. You couldn't make it up .  The Messiah is due any day now.
The pals will probably claim he's one of theirs too, the way they now claim Jesus was palestinian, not jewish.  ???
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 03:33:03 PM

Israel Targeted Gaza Civilians with Humanitarian Aid

Israel "targeted" Gaza civilians with humanitarian aid while Gaza terrorists committed war crimes by firing missiles on Israelis.


AAFont Size
By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 12/24/2012, 10:32 AM




Israel "targeted" Gaza civilians with humanitarian aid during the counterterrorist Pillar of Defense operation, at the same time Gaza terrorists committed war crimes by firing missiles on Israelis, as cited by Human Rights Watch on Monday.



The IDF Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) said that throughout the eight-day missile war last month, COGAT's field representatives in Gaza worked with the IDF, other branches of the Israeli defense establishment, international organizations and governmental representatives in order to provide assistance for the needs of the civilian population in Gaza.

"While Hamas actively exploits and endangers their civilians, COGAT's activities are yet another example of the measures that Israel takes to minimize casualties and harm amongst that very same population," the IDF said.

Erez Crossing, the pedestrian terminal between Israel and Gaza, was fully operational for emergency evacuations throughout Pillar of Defense.

While the Kerem Shalom Crossing, the commercial goods terminal between Israel and Gaza, was open for three days of the operation, the threat of rocket fire kept wary truck drivers on both sides of the border away, and rockets were actually fired towards the crossing during the transfer of goods.

Throughout Operation Pillar of Defense, food stores in Gaza remained at high levels.

COGAT placed special emphasis on prioritizing health related requests, whether supply requests or exit permits for treatment in Israel. Israel continued to supply 125 MW of electricity to Gaza through the 10 electrical lines connecting Israel and Gaza.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163496 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163496)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on December 27, 2012, 04:29:27 PM
That last post is hilarious.

You give good spam.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 27, 2012, 04:40:53 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 27, 2012, 04:29:27 PM
That last post is hilarious.

You give good spam.

They are very ashamed of what they are doing in Gaza and they try to spin it
but it's pathetic.

I'm sure if BdeB had been around in 1846 he'd have been accusing the starving people of Cavan town
of anti Protestantism. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 10:47:47 PM

Suha Arafat Admits 2000 War of Terror was Premeditated

Arafat's widow admits that her husband decided long before Sharon's visit to Temple Mount that he would launch war of terror against Israel.

By Rachel Hirshfeld
First Publish: 12/27/2012, 8:08 PM




Yasser Arafat's widow, Suha, admitted that the late leader of the "Palestinian" people had decided long before former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's contentious visit to the Temple Mount that he would launch a war of terror, a.k.a. "Intifada", against the Jewish state.





Sharon's visit unleashed a wave of intense international condemnations and was widely, yet falsely, believed to have provided the impetus for the war of terror that was waged against the state of Israel.


The Intifada began when a PA policeman shot and killed  IDF soldier Yossi Tabega who was sitting next to him on a joint jeep patrol.


Widely known as "The Second Intifada" or "The Oslo War," the murderous onslaught peaked during 2001-2002 and was more or less over by 2007.


According to the Foreign Ministry website, during the reign of terror over 1,200 Israelis, most of them civilians, were murdered in buses, on roads, in cafes and restaurants, with tens of thousands more maimed, scarred and bereaved.


"Yasser Arafat had made a decision to launch the Intifada," Suha told Dubai TV on December 16, in an interview translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI).


"Camp David had failed, and he said to me: 'You should remain in Paris.'"


"I asked him why and he said: 'Because I am going to start an Intifada. They want me to betray the Palestinian cause. They want me to give up on our principles, and I will not do so.'"


"'I do not want Zahwah's friends in the future to say that Yasser Arafat abandoned the Palestinian cause and principles. I might be martyred, but I shall bequeath our historical heritage to Zahwa and to the children of Palestine,'" Suha said in the words of her late husband, referring to their daughter.


Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak had offered to withdraw from 97 percent of Judea and Samaria, as well as 100 percent of Gaza. In addition, he agreed to dismantle 63 Jewish communities. In exchange for the 5 percent annexation of Jewish lands, Israel would increase the size of the Gaza territory by roughly a third.


Barak also made concessions on Jerusalem that many Israelis find unthinkable, agreeing that Arabs would maintain control over their holy places and have "religious sovereignty" over the Temple Mount.


Arafat flatly rejected the proposal, which has been more that any Israeli leader had offered in the past, deciding, instead, to unleash a war of terror against the State of Israel.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163634 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163634)

Poor wee palestinians, being attacked for no reason by the big bad Israeli war machine.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 27, 2012, 10:54:39 PM
Ballbag, why do you continue to post articles from pro Israel sources, it means nothing to anyone with any sense.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 11:24:55 PM
Well, my inquisitive little itchy ballbag, I like to post from "pro Israel" sources because nobody else does. It seems that all the cool kids round here have got it into their heads that those poor wee palestinian mites are being attacked for no reason whatsoever. It appears that there are a few who really take it to heart when you show any support for the Israeli point of view. Now, you wouldn't want people to have a completely one sided, jaundiced, view of how the world really is, would you? I like to think that there are always two sides to every story, no matter what the subject is. Dontchathink?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on December 28, 2012, 12:28:09 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 11:24:55 PM
Well, my inquisitive little itchy ballbag, I like to post from "pro Israel" sources because nobody else does. It seems that all the cool kids round here have got it into their heads that those poor wee palestinian mites are being attacked for no reason whatsoever. It appears that there are a few who really take it to heart when you show any support for the Israeli point of view. Now, you wouldn't want people to have a completely one sided, jaundiced, view of how the world really is, would you? I like to think that there are always two sides to every story, no matter what the subject is. Dontchathink?

Ball,

No one thinks the Palestinians 'are being attacked for no reason whatsoever'. Ethnic cleansing has always has its benefits.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 08:58:08 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 27, 2012, 11:24:55 PM
Well, my inquisitive little itchy ballbag, I like to post from "pro Israel" sources because nobody else does. It seems that all the cool kids round here have got it into their heads that those poor wee palestinian mites are being attacked for no reason whatsoever. It appears that there are a few who really take it to heart when you show any support for the Israeli point of view. Now, you wouldn't want people to have a completely one sided, jaundiced, view of how the world really is, would you? I like to think that there are always two sides to every story, no matter what the subject is. Dontchathink?

But ballbag, one only has to look at your account details to see you have no interest in being fair to both sides. You are just the direct opposite to seafood, unable to admit the wrong on the side you support. You are most likely a northern loyalist here to wind up the Fenians. It seems now even those flag protesting retards have access to the internet now.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 09:40:40 AM
You've got me sussed, Poirot.  :D
I'm actually Willie Frasers love child daughter, working in the Israeli embassey, posting on a GAA board.  ::)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 05:57:54 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 09:40:40 AM
You've got me sussed, Poirot.  :D
I'm actually Willie Frasers love child daughter, working in the Israeli embassey, posting on a GAA board.  ::)

I reckon I have, claiming to be a member of Sean McDermotts, sign onto a gaa forum and never post one comment on a gaa topic. Your probably one of those inbreds that was the israeli-palestine documentary the boys had links to on another thread.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 06:23:41 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 05:57:54 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 09:40:40 AM
You've got me sussed, Poirot.  :D
I'm actually Willie Frasers love child daughter, working in the Israeli embassey, posting on a GAA board.  ::)

I reckon I have, claiming to be a member of Sean McDermotts, sign onto a gaa forum and never post one comment on a gaa topic. Your probably one of those inbreds that was the israeli-palestine documentary the boys had links to on another thread.
You're not the smartest, are you. I never claimed to be a member of McD's, but I'm hardly going to come on to this site, having the views I do, knowing the hostility I'll receive and tell all and sundry my real personal details, am I?

By the way, I don't work in the Israeli embassey either Einstein.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 06:42:29 PM
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 28, 2012, 08:53:52 PM
Itchy,
I don't think the Palestinians are perfect. They could do things better. They have their own issues. I wouldn't vote hamas. Non violence would get more sympathy. It wouldn't make any difference against the israeli army though. Ask the people of bil'in.
But the Palestinians don't run the system. The jews do and for over 60 years they have been denying palestinians rights on the basis they are barbarians. And the Jews in israel are comfortable with apartheid. And that is the most important thing.  I don't think jewish apartheid has a future. Btw I think you have learnt a good bit recently so keep it up
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 10:06:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 06:42:29 PM
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
can I ask you, we're you brought up to be disrespectful and childish? Even in our deepest disagreements, I have found other posters mature enough to at least use the others correct username and not resort to petty name calling.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: MK on December 28, 2012, 10:25:28 PM
Can't believe anyone replying to a "baldy beever" on any subject  :o

Really must be the ultimate WUM
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 10:35:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 10:06:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 06:42:29 PM
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
can I ask you, we're you brought up to be disrespectful and childish? Even in our deepest disagreements, I have found other posters mature enough to at least use the others correct username and not resort to petty name calling.

Did your parents never tell you not to answer a question with another question? Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Myles Na G. on December 28, 2012, 11:35:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 10:35:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 10:06:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 06:42:29 PM
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
can I ask you, we're you brought up to be disrespectful and childish? Even in our deepest disagreements, I have found other posters mature enough to at least use the others correct username and not resort to petty name calling.

Did your parents never tell you not to answer a question with another question? Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on December 29, 2012, 02:32:32 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 28, 2012, 08:53:52 PM
Itchy,
I don't think the Palestinians are perfect. They could do things better. They have their own issues. I wouldn't vote hamas. Non violence would get more sympathy. It wouldn't make any difference against the israeli army though. Ask the people of bil'in.
But the Palestinians don't run the system. The jews do and for over 60 years they have been denying palestinians rights on the basis they are barbarians. And the Jews in israel are comfortable with apartheid. And that is the most important thing.  I don't think jewish apartheid has a future. Btw I think you have learnt a good bit recently so keep it up

Hatred of jews is your primary concern. The Palestinian cause is merely incidental. It is important that people are aware of this.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 29, 2012, 04:29:58 AM
I'm feeling really unloved tonight. It seems Itchy has a problem with me posting here, and doesn't want me to play with the cool kids.

Deal with it. Not one person has the right to demand to know why anyone posts on this, or any other site. We all post for a variety of reasons, and while we may have differing views, all should be respected, even Seafoid and his rabid antisemitism.  ;)
(http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Inb4+Jews_06e6b0_4199596.gif)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 29, 2012, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on December 29, 2012, 02:32:32 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 28, 2012, 08:53:52 PM
Itchy,
I don't think the Palestinians are perfect. They could do things better. They have their own issues. I wouldn't vote hamas. Non violence would get more sympathy. It wouldn't make any difference against the israeli army though. Ask the people of bil'in.
But the Palestinians don't run the system. The jews do and for over 60 years they have been denying palestinians rights on the basis they are barbarians. And the Jews in israel are comfortable with apartheid. And that is the most important thing.  I don't think jewish apartheid has a future. Btw I think you have learnt a good bit recently so keep it up

Hatred of jews is your primary concern. The Palestinian cause is merely incidental. It is important that people are aware of this.
You should go and see a shrink. If Kerry were winning all Irelands would following me around the board  be the only way to get you through the winter?  Paidi o se was a legendary marker but you are just an internet user.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 29, 2012, 05:11:01 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/29/us-israel-palestinians-egypt-rafah-idUSBRE8BS08V20121229

(Reuters) - Islamist-led Egypt allowed building materials into Gaza via the Rafah crossing on Saturday for the first time since Hamas seized control of the Palestinian enclave in 2007, an Egyptian border official said.

It was part of a shipment of building materials donated by the Gulf Arab state of Qatar, which has pledged $400 million to finance reconstruction in Gaza. The Islamist group Hamas has run Gaza since driving out its rivals in the Palestinian Authority.

Israel tightened a blockade on the Gaza Strip after Hamas, which refuses to recognize the Jewish state, took power there.

Hamas has been hoping that the rise to power in Egypt of a fellow-Islamist government sympathetic to its cause will lead to a full opening of Rafah to commercial goods. Egypt's President Mohamed Mursi sent his prime minister to Gaza last month to show solidarity during a brief war between Hamas and Israel.

The Rafah border with Egypt is the only Gaza crossing not controlled by Israel, which withdrew its settlers and soldiers from Gaza in 2005. Cairo has restricted the use of Rafah crossing to travelers and medical relief, giving rise to extensive smuggling into Gaza through tunnels under the border.

The border official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that while the Egyptian authorities had agreed to allow the Qatari-donated material into Gaza, the shipment did not mark the start of the full opening of the crossing sought by Hamas.

An official in Gaza's Hamas government said it was a positive step. "We hope that Egypt will open this crossing permanently for goods so our people can meet their needs," said Ehab al-Ghsain, head of the Hamas government media office.

Palestinians said it was the first time anything other than people and medical supplies had been allowed in since 2006. Six truck loads of building material had crossed on Saturday, with more expected later in the day, the Egyptian official said.

The government of Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak, who was removed from power by a popular uprising nearly two years ago, looked on Hamas with suspicion bordering on outright hostility.

Leaders in the Muslim Brotherhood, which propelled Mursi to the presidency in a June election, had said they backed the idea of opening Rafah to trade. But Mursi has taken no public steps in that direction since taking office.

Cairo has long feared that opening Rafah fully might prompt Israel to close permanently the other crossings with Gaza, which it captured from Egypt in the 1967 Middle East war.

Ghsain said: "Rafah had been closed for goods for so many years and we always hoped such a policy would change, without exempting the Israeli occupation from their responsibilities. Israel must end the closure and reopen all crossings with Gaza."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 05:45:54 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on December 28, 2012, 11:35:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 10:35:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 10:06:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 06:42:29 PM
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
can I ask you, we're you brought up to be disrespectful and childish? Even in our deepest disagreements, I have found other posters mature enough to at least use the others correct username and not resort to petty name calling.

Did your parents never tell you not to answer a question with another question? Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?

Did you forget to log on as your alter ego before you posted Millie.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 05:54:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 29, 2012, 04:29:58 AM
I'm feeling really unloved tonight. It seems Itchy has a problem with me posting here, and doesn't want me to play with the cool kids.

Deal with it. Not one person has the right to demand to know why anyone posts on this, or any other site. We all post for a variety of reasons, and while we may have differing views, all should be respected, even Seafoid and his rabid antisemitism.  ;)
(http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Inb4+Jews_06e6b0_4199596.gif)

Ballbag, I simply asked you why you felt the need to visit a gaa forum. Sign up as ballbag, give a false gaa club (you didn't even need to enter anything), put the Israeli embassy as your address and post 100% horse shite on every post. Bring a wum is a sad existence. Most wums have no friends due to their pathetic social skills, normally loners who were never cuddled enough as children. In the old days they used to amuse themselves by catching insects in jars and pulling their legs off one by one. Now that the internet has made its way to every hole and sewer in the country it gives these sad individuals another outlet to try and make themselves important. Sadly once the old internet is logged off they return to their pathetic sad old lives. Anyway, I was just wondering is that why you logged on here ballbag.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: rodney trotter on December 29, 2012, 06:11:22 PM
Why take the whole Isreal/Pelestine situation so serious? Not like it has just occurred, been going on for over 100 years. Chill out its xmass..
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 29, 2012, 06:11:57 PM
You really are a hate filled wee runt, aren't you.

Any time you want to debate the subject, I'm your man. chop chop
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 06:46:09 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 29, 2012, 06:11:57 PM
You really are a hate filled wee runt, aren't you.

Any time you want to debate the subject, I'm your man. chop chop

Qualified psychologists like me are trained not to hate and since I'm 6'2" I am not normally described as a wee runt. However, the profile I've built of you ballbag seems to be spot on. You reacted to the insects in the jar didn't you? How many spiders did you kill ballbag? How did it make you feel, like a big man I expect? But you are not a big man are you, you're a little scut aren't you? Come see me at my practise sometime and we'll sort this out but its a long process and will probably take 20 to 40 visits to get all the bile out.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 06:56:12 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 29, 2012, 06:11:22 PM
Why take the whole Isreal/Pelestine situation so serious? Not like it has just occurred, been going on for over 100 years. Chill out its xmass..

Rodney life and death is a serious issue. However during the course of attempted debate we discovered ballbag is only here to wind people up. Using some secret techniques I've drawn ballbag out of his shell and built a profile on a spreadsheet here at home. The man is not well and needs help. The motto of my practise is "see a problem, fix a problem". It means it is morally wrong for a man like me with the tools I have to not help a poor soul like ballbag. Its not a matter of chilling out rather a matter of helping the needy. I hope that helps to clear it up.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: rodney trotter on December 29, 2012, 07:02:17 PM
Its a serious issue I know, wasn't directed at you in particular. There is a recession in Ireland with thousands of people leaving for Oz and Canada, I would call that serious as that is local. What is the future of Ireland?. Maybe people worry about stuff when in hindsight there is enough problems in our own Country.

But just my opinion.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on December 29, 2012, 07:03:01 PM
You're not really coming across any better slim, it seems regardless of what Seafoid thinks you've a fair bit of learning to do yet.

Qualified psychologist like me was one of the highlights of the board in recent times.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 07:23:35 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on December 29, 2012, 07:03:01 PM
You're not really coming across any better slim, it seems regardless of what Seafoid thinks you've a fair bit of learning to do yet.

Qualified psychologist like me was one of the highlights of the board in recent times.

I'm a sponge puck, educate me.

I know plenty about Israel and Palestine and my starting point here was to try and force seafood to agree that atrocities inflicted by Palestinians are just as wrong as the atrocities of israel, irrespective of quantities involved. Israel is the main aggressor for sure. So unless you want fine details what am I missing?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 29, 2012, 08:52:42 PM
If I thought for one second that my hard earned taxes were used in the " education" of this idiot, I'm asking for my money back.
Has any village in Cavan lost an idiot lately. If they have....... We got him.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 09:09:46 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 29, 2012, 08:52:42 PM
If I thought for one second that my hard earned taxes were used in the " education" of this idiot, I'm asking for my money back.
Has any village in Cavan lost an idiot lately. If they have....... We got him.

I'm trying to help you ballbag so I will disregard the ridiculous idea that you are employed and pay taxes. Come visit me, I can cure you and make you the big man you always wanted to be.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on December 29, 2012, 09:17:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 29, 2012, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on December 29, 2012, 02:32:32 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 28, 2012, 08:53:52 PM
Itchy,
I don't think the Palestinians are perfect. They could do things better. They have their own issues. I wouldn't vote hamas. Non violence would get more sympathy. It wouldn't make any difference against the israeli army though. Ask the people of bil'in.
But the Palestinians don't run the system. The jews do and for over 60 years they have been denying palestinians rights on the basis they are barbarians. And the Jews in israel are comfortable with apartheid. And that is the most important thing.  I don't think jewish apartheid has a future. Btw I think you have learnt a good bit recently so keep it up



Hatred of jews is your primary concern. The Palestinian cause is merely incidental. It is important that people are aware of this.
You should go and see a shrink. If Kerry were winning all Irelands would following me around the board  be the only way to get you through the winter?  Paidi o se was a legendary marker but you are just an internet user.

Maybe that shrink could look into your obsessed little mind and figure out how Galway, of all places,  could breed such a vicious anti-semite.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 10:35:32 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on December 29, 2012, 09:17:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 29, 2012, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on December 29, 2012, 02:32:32 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 28, 2012, 08:53:52 PM
Itchy,
I don't think the Palestinians are perfect. They could do things better. They have their own issues. I wouldn't vote hamas. Non violence would get more sympathy. It wouldn't make any difference against the israeli army though. Ask the people of bil'in.
But the Palestinians don't run the system. The jews do and for over 60 years they have been denying palestinians rights on the basis they are barbarians. And the Jews in israel are comfortable with apartheid. And that is the most important thing.  I don't think jewish apartheid has a future. Btw I think you have learnt a good bit recently so keep it up



Hatred of jews is your primary concern. The Palestinian cause is merely incidental. It is important that people are aware of this.
You should go and see a shrink. If Kerry were winning all Irelands would following me around the board  be the only way to get you through the winter?  Paidi o se was a legendary marker but you are just an internet user.

Maybe that shrink could look into your obsessed little mind and figure out how Galway, of all places,  could breed such a vicious anti-semite.

I'm all booked up Mike, I'm going to have to do ballbag in the evenings and weekends so Seafood will have to wait. But in the meantime he should recognise that individual suffering on both sides of the divide is the same and no one has a monopoly on sorrow. If he can admit this then his numerous posts can be taken more seriously and not as those of someone who does, at times, come across as anti "jewish".
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 29, 2012, 11:10:41 PM
Does your carer not read your posts first?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 11:34:19 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 29, 2012, 11:10:41 PM
Does your carer not read your posts first?

You're posts are getting shorter, this is good and an important step. Hopefully soon we can get down to no words then I can help you evolve into something better. Keep the faith ballbag.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Myles Na G. on December 30, 2012, 01:35:15 AM
Quote from: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 05:45:54 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on December 28, 2012, 11:35:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 10:35:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 10:06:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 06:42:29 PM
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
can I ask you, we're you brought up to be disrespectful and childish? Even in our deepest disagreements, I have found other posters mature enough to at least use the others correct username and not resort to petty name calling.

Did your parents never tell you not to answer a question with another question? Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?

Did you forget to log on as your alter ego before you posted Millie.
But why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 06:52:08 AM
So is ball de beaver someone from the cavan thread? Did he cross myles and morph into a zionist?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 30, 2012, 08:43:04 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 06:52:08 AM
So is ball de beaver someone from the cavan thread? Did he cross myles and morph into a zionist?

Its an interesting theory Seafood. However I have to say I have not seen ballbag or Millie na gcaorach over on the Cavan thread. I don't think either are big supporters of Cavan or of the GAA in general to be honest.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 30, 2012, 08:54:07 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on December 30, 2012, 01:35:15 AM
Quote from: Itchy on December 29, 2012, 05:45:54 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on December 28, 2012, 11:35:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 10:35:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 28, 2012, 10:06:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 28, 2012, 06:42:29 PM
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
can I ask you, we're you brought up to be disrespectful and childish? Even in our deepest disagreements, I have found other posters mature enough to at least use the others correct username and not resort to petty name calling.

Did your parents never tell you not to answer a question with another question? Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?
Why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?

Did you forget to log on as your alter ego before you posted Millie.
But why are you on a gaa forum ballbag?

Strange behaviour Millie Na Gcaorach. You quote me but are addressing ballbag. Is seems that perhaps you are addressing me as ballbag, very odd (please see below for a possible reason for this). Very well I will answer. I signed up to talk about GAA originally but when I saw a problem on here my training tells me to try an fix that problem.

Your 2nd attempt to defend your friend is admirable, but misguided, as I am only trying to help old ballbag. It is interesting from a psychologists perspective to see one WUM defend another WUM. Very interesting indeed as it means there are only three possibilities..

1- Millie Na Gcaorach and Ballbag are one and the same unwell individual.
2- There is loyalty between WUM's
3- Millie Na Gcaorach and Ballbag are lovers (most likely gay lovers)

I am leaning towards number 3 given the way Millie na Gcaorach reacted twice with some aggression to my healing of Ballbag. That aggression probably comes from jealousy that I am making progress with Ballbag where Millie Na Gcaorach could not. I just want to say Millie, its OK. You keep loving Ballbag and I'll send him back to you a bigger, more important, more adequate lover.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 30, 2012, 02:09:13 PM
Folks, any chance we can keep this thread civilised ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 02:38:05 PM
There are many things we disagree on GHD, but now we can both agree who the WUM is.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 30, 2012, 04:05:32 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/30/israeli-arab-flotilla-election

Israeli-Arab politician who was on Gaza protest flotilla can stand for re-election

An Israeli-Arab politician who took part in a flotilla attempting to breach the blockade of Gaza in 2010 will be able to compete in the general election in three weeks after the supreme court unanimously overturned a ban on her candidacy.

A panel of nine judges overruled a decision by the central elections committee to disqualify Haneen Zoabi from seeking re-election as a member of the Israeli parliament. The committee's decision was based on her participation in the flotilla.

Following the supreme court's ruling on Sunday, Zoabi said the attempt to bar her from the election was "the result of political and personal persecution against me, against my party and against the Arab public as a whole".

But, she added: "This ruling does little to erase the threats, delegitimisation and physical as well as verbal abuse that I have endured ... over the past three years."

Zoabi, a member of the Israeli-Arab party Balad, was elected to parliament almost four years ago. In May 2010, she was a passenger on the Mavi Marmara, on which nine Turkish activists were killed by Israeli commandos intent on stopping the flotilla reaching Gaza.

She later had her parliamentary privileges revoked but an attempt to bring criminal charges against her failed. She was assigned special protection after receiving death threats.

Last month she spoke out against the Israeli offensive on Gaza, saying Israel was breaking international law and "no military force can crush the people's survival instinct".

After a supreme court hearing last week against the disqualification, Zoabi was heckled and jostled by around 30 rightwing activists outside the court, forcing her to take shelter until security guards cleared the area.

The court did not issue reasons for its ruling, but will issue a detailed judgment at a later date. Israel's attorney-general said there was insufficient evidence to disqualify Zoabi.

Attempts during previous election campaigns to disqualify Israeli-Arab candidates have also been overturned by the supreme court. Israeli-Arabs make up 20% of the country's 7.8 million population, and there are currently 11 members of the 120-seat parliament representing Israeli-Arab parties.

Following Sunday's ruling, Zoabi's lawyer, Hassan Jabarin said: "The fact that the repeated attempts to disqualify Arab [members of parliament] and political parties made over the last 15 years have had no legal basis, as the Israeli supreme court has consistently ruled, indicates that the aim of the rightwing is to de-legitimise the elected Arab leadership in Israel.

"The case of Haneen Zoabi differs from the others in that an attempt was made to dehumanise her and to attack her personally as a woman. She was also branded as a terrorist simply for participating in the Gaza freedom flotilla, which was a legitimate political act, and even though she has not been indicted for any crime."

Likud-Beiteinu, the rightwing alliance headed by the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, said it would amend the law in the next parliamentary term to "clearly state that anyone supporting terror is automatically disqualified" from being a member of parliament.

Other politicians who backed the move to disqualify Zoabi spoke of their regret at the supreme court's decision. Danny Danon, who presented an 11,000-signature petition to the elections committee demanding Zoabi's candidacy be banned, said: "Today the court decided to back the Marmara's terrorist instead of the navy commandos ... Zaobi belongs in prison."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 04:24:48 PM

Likud MK Vows 'Zoabi Law'; 'Her Proper Place Is Jail'
The next Knesset will be asked to pass a law to bar "Mavi Mamara" Zoabi from the legislature once and for all, Likud MK Danon said.


AAFont Size
By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 12/30/2012, 11:52 AM




IHH terror activists preparing to attack IDF

IDF Spokesperson's Office



The next Knesset will be asked to pass a law that would put Arab MK "Mavi Mamara" Zoabi out of the legislature once and for all, Likud MK Danny Danon said Sunday, minutes after the High Court overruled a Knesset committee.

The court, in a unanimous vote, ruled as expected and gave the Balad party's list of candidates a green light, despite MK Hanin Zoabi's having been on board the Mavi Mamara boat nearly three years ago when its IHH terrorists clubbed and knifed Israeli commandos.

Before the decision, a petition to ban Zoabi from running for the Knesset gained 11,000 signatures.

The Knesset Election Committee decided two weeks ago that Zoabi cannot run, but her appeal to the High Court was accepted.

The Basic Law allows the Knesset committee to ban a list of MKs if it includes those who deny the establishment of the State of Israel as a democratic country, incite racism or support armed terrorist attacks by an enemy.

"The High Court decided today to support the Mavi Mamara terrorist [Zoabi] instead of Israeli commandos who were attacked with knives and clubs by terrorists of the IHH under the umbrella of immunity of Zoabi," said MK Danon.


"Her proper place is in jail."

He said he plans to introduce a change in  the Basic law to get around today's and previous court rulings overruling the Knesset. "The current law is not working," Danon said. "The law will be changed and Zoabi can be sure that her days in the Knesset are numbered."

The attacks on the Mavi Mamara caught the Navy commandos by surprise. The soldiers were unarmed, except for paint guns and personal revolvers strapped behind their backs. They descended on board by rope from a hovering helicopter to enforce a maritime embargo on Gaza, where the ship and five sister boats were headed.

Video footage and photographs proved that the attack was pre-planned. The terrorists kidnapped three commandos and severely wounded several of the soldiers until the troops were able to overcome the attackers, nine of whom were killed.


Zoabi did not personally participate in  the attacks but was detained, along with more than 600 others, when Israeli naval forces rerouted all six ships to the port city of Ashdod, several miles north of Gaza.

Police released Zoabi shortly after her arrest because of parliamentary immunity, and she later told the Knesset, in an angry speech, the IHH attackers did not stage any provocation.

"It was clear from the size of the force that boarded the ship that the purpose was not only to stop this sail, but to cause the largest possible number of fatalities in order to stop such initiatives in the future," she later told Israeli media.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163687 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163687)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Lar Naparka on December 30, 2012, 05:37:58 PM
Ball De Beaver,
I hate to interrupt the craic going on here at present but I'm genuinely curious about some aspects of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
I wonder if you would answer a few (genuine) questions.
What are the Israelis looking for?
(In other words, if there is such a thing as a general consensus, what would be the extent of the Israeli objectives?)

What would they be prepared to accept as the minimum necessary to allow them to accept the presence of Palestinians on what was one their biblical land?

What degree of autonomy are they prepared to offer to the Palestinians?

Finally, you appear to find the term, "Jew" to be offensive. I would assume that, while all citizens of Israel are not Jews, the terms could be interchanged without causing offence to anyone. Apparently, you don't agree. Am I correct?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 06:45:10 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on December 30, 2012, 05:37:58 PM
Ball De Beaver,
I hate to interrupt the craic going on here at present but I'm genuinely curious about some aspects of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
I wonder if you would answer a few (genuine) questions.
What are the Israelis looking for?
(In other words, if there is such a thing as a general consensus, what would be the extent of the Israeli objectives?)
Not being an Israeli citizen, I can only give my opinion on what I believe they want. But don't forget that even withib Israeli society, there are as many diverse opinions as there are people.
Security. Plain and simple. From what I gather from any Israeli I have spoken to, they have a real seige mentality due to the overwhelming pressure on them from both the arab and general world wide public opinion going against them. They know they are up against the majority of people, but feel they are in a corner, and are steadily coming to the conclusion that no matter what the do, they just can't change public opinion. So why should they even try to?


Quote

What would they be prepared to accept as the minimum necessary to allow them to accept the presence of Palestinians on what was one their biblical land?
If you mean "right to return", then they have already stated that they would accept many displaced persons back to their homes, though they certainly won't take in the 4 million some palestinian sources have called for. There have been many cases wordwide where people have been displaced from there homes due to war etc, but nobody calls for them to get a "right to return." Why is that?

QuoteWhat degree of autonomy are they prepared to offer to the Palestinians?
I think they would eventually give them full autonomy, in their own land.



QuoteFinally, you appear to find the term, "Jew" to be offensive. I would assume that, while all citizens of Israel are not Jews, the terms could be interchanged without causing offence to anyone. Apparently, you don't agree. Am I correct?

The term "jew" is certainly not offensive, as catholic, protestant, muslim or hindu are not offensive. Attack the Israeli government position by all means, but why should they have to put up with sectarianism?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 07:50:43 PM
It has a law which entitles any jew anywhere to immediate citizenship .It  is the  soi  disant Jewish  state . It shuts  down on saturdays . It only observes Jewish holidays. It only funds Jewish archaeology .  Half of its population is not  Jewish. Why are we supposed not to mention 'jew 'in the same breath  as israel ? It suits the settlers  in hebron  to paint  stars of David alongside graffiti like 'gas the arabs' but any use of the term jew on this board is antisemitic . BS.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: under the bar on December 30, 2012, 07:51:15 PM
Is Ball de beaver thon ginger bigot who converted to Judaism on Shalom Belfast but knew nothing about the history of the middle east??
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 08:06:19 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 04:24:48 PM

Likud MK Vows 'Zoabi Law'; 'Her Proper Place Is Jail'
The next Knesset will be asked to pass a law to bar "Mavi Mamara" Zoabi from the legislature once and for all, Likud MK Danon said.


AAFont Size
By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 12/30/2012, 11:52 AM




IHH terror activists preparing to attack IDF

IDF Spokesperson's Office



The next Knesset will be asked to pass a law that would put Arab MK "Mavi Mamara" Zoabi out of the legislature once and for all, Likud MK Danny Danon said Sunday, minutes after the High Court overruled a Knesset committee.

The court, in a unanimous vote, ruled as expected and gave the Balad party's list of candidates a green light, despite MK Hanin Zoabi's having been on board the Mavi Mamara boat nearly three years ago when its IHH terrorists clubbed and knifed Israeli commandos.

Before the decision, a petition to ban Zoabi from running for the Knesset gained 11,000 signatures.

The Knesset Election Committee decided two weeks ago that Zoabi cannot run, but her appeal to the High Court was accepted.

The Basic Law allows the Knesset committee to ban a list of MKs if it includes those who deny the establishment of the State of Israel as a democratic country, incite racism or support armed terrorist attacks by an enemy.

"The High Court decided today to support the Mavi Mamara terrorist [Zoabi] instead of Israeli commandos who were attacked with knives and clubs by terrorists of the IHH under the umbrella of immunity of Zoabi," said MK Danon.


"Her proper place is in jail."

He said he plans to introduce a change in  the Basic law to get around today's and previous court rulings overruling the Knesset. "The current law is not working," Danon said. "The law will be changed and Zoabi can be sure that her days in the Knesset are numbered."

The attacks on the Mavi Mamara caught the Navy commandos by surprise. The soldiers were unarmed, except for paint guns and personal revolvers strapped behind their backs. They descended on board by rope from a hovering helicopter to enforce a maritime embargo on Gaza, where the ship and five sister boats were headed.

Video footage and photographs proved that the attack was pre-planned. The terrorists kidnapped three commandos and severely wounded several of the soldiers until the troops were able to overcome the attackers, nine of whom were killed.


Zoabi did not personally participate in  the attacks but was detained, along with more than 600 others, when Israeli naval forces rerouted all six ships to the port city of Ashdod, several miles north of Gaza.
Great
Police released Zoabi shortly after her arrest because of parliamentary immunity, and she later told the Knesset, in an angry speech, the IHH attackers did not stage any provocation.
Zoabi
"It was clear from the size of the force that boarded the ship that the purpose was not only to stop this sail, but to cause the largest possible number of fatalities in order to stop such initiatives in the future," she later told Israeli media.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163687 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163687)
Great link . Shows how poor the israeli arguments are. Furkan dogun , a US citizen  was unarmed and shot in the back of the head. There were no weapons on board. The zionists refused an independent inquiry  and bdb's settlers call those israel murdered terrorists .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 08:09:21 PM
Israel used to be à democracy . Zoabi is a politician but she is palestinian so she has to be taken out.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 08:55:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 07:50:43 PM
It has a law which entitles any jew anywhere to immediate citizenship .It  is the  soi  disant Jewish  state . It shuts  down on saturdays . It only observes Jewish holidays. It only funds Jewish archaeology .  Half of its population is not  Jewish. Why are we supposed not to mention 'jew 'in the same breath  as israel ? It suits the settlers  in hebron  to paint  stars of David alongside graffiti like 'gas the arabs' but any use of the term jew on this board is antisemitic . BS.
Israel doesn't stop someone from moving there because they aren't Jewish. Positive discrimination is in use in many countries world wide. UK and Ireland observe only Christian holidays, with the vast majority of laws based on Christian beliefs. There are extremists in every country who will paint graffiti with their warped views, Israel is no different.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 30, 2012, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 30, 2012, 02:09:13 PM
Folks, any chance we can keep this thread civilised ?
No problem, see there is some debate actually happening now instead of the endless cut and paste from the various newspapers. No need to thank me.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 08:55:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 07:50:43 PM
It has a law which entitles any jew anywhere to immediate citizenship .It  is the  soi  disant Jewish  state . It shuts  down on saturdays . It only observes Jewish holidays. It only funds Jewish archaeology .  Half of its population is not  Jewish. Why are we supposed not to mention 'jew 'in the same breath  as israel ? It suits the settlers  in hebron  to paint  stars of David alongside graffiti like 'gas the arabs' but any use of the term jew on this board is antisemitic . BS.
Israel doesn't stop someone from moving there because they aren't Jewish. Positive discrimination is in use in many countries world wide. UK and Ireland observe only Christian holidays, with the vast majority of laws based on Christian beliefs. There are extremists in every country who will paint graffiti with their warped views, Israel is no different.
any jew gets a passport. 10000 east jerusalem palestinians lose residency rights in their own city every year. There are no muslim public holidays in israel. Almost half of the population of greater israel.is muslim. Israel is worse than norn irn was in the 1920s. At least the unionists never used white phosphorous. Comparing Israel to the uk is a joke. The uk doesn't denominate road access on the basis of religion.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on December 30, 2012, 10:39:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 30, 2012, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 30, 2012, 02:09:13 PM
Folks, any chance we can keep this thread civilised ?
No problem, see there is some debate actually happening now instead of the endless cut and paste from the various newspapers. No need to thank me.

Ah, sure seeing as it's Christmas, I will thank you anyway 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 30, 2012, 11:44:36 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 30, 2012, 10:39:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 30, 2012, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 30, 2012, 02:09:13 PM
Folks, any chance we can keep this thread civilised ?
No problem, see there is some debate actually happening now instead of the endless cut and paste from the various newspapers. No need to thank me.

Ah, sure seeing as it's Christmas, I will thank you anyway
You're very welcome, it was my pleasure.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: johnneycool on December 31, 2012, 08:56:35 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 06:45:10 PM

QuoteWhat degree of autonomy are they prepared to offer to the Palestinians?
I think they would eventually give them full autonomy, in their own land.





What is their own land?

Are we going back to the Balfour declaration where the Rothschilds did a deal with the devil in 1922 or using a bible of one sort or another?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 12:43:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 08:55:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 07:50:43 PM
It has a law which entitles any jew anywhere to immediate citizenship .It  is the  soi  disant Jewish  state . It shuts  down on saturdays . It only observes Jewish holidays. It only funds Jewish archaeology .  Half of its population is not  Jewish. Why are we supposed not to mention 'jew 'in the same breath  as israel ? It suits the settlers  in hebron  to paint  stars of David alongside graffiti like 'gas the arabs' but any use of the term jew on this board is antisemitic . BS.
Israel doesn't stop someone from moving there because they aren't Jewish. Positive discrimination is in use in many countries world wide. UK and Ireland observe only Christian holidays, with the vast majority of laws based on Christian beliefs. There are extremists in every country who will paint graffiti with their warped views, Israel is no different.
any jew gets a passport. 10000 east jerusalem palestinians lose residency rights in their own city every year. There are no muslim public holidays in israel. Almost half of the population of greater israel.is muslim. Israel is worse than norn irn was in the 1920s. At least the unionists never used white phosphorous. Comparing Israel to the uk is a joke. The uk doesn't denominate road access on the basis of religion.
Where do you get your population numbers from? Out of a population of 7,981,000 Israel is 75.4% jewish, muslim 20.6% with the rest made up of christians etc. Some roads are restricted to cars with non Israeli number plates, nothing to do with the drivers religion. This is a security measure to cut down the number of drive-by shootings, and has been a big success.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: johnneycool on December 31, 2012, 01:27:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on December 31, 2012, 08:56:35 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 06:45:10 PM

QuoteWhat degree of autonomy are they prepared to offer to the Palestinians?
I think they would eventually give them full autonomy, in their own land.





What is their own land?

Are we going back to the Balfour declaration where the Rothschilds did a deal with the devil in 1922 or using a bible of one sort or another?

any chance of some clarification?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 02:04:39 PM
Are you Itchy in disguise?

In their own land = In their own state.

Crystal?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: johnneycool on December 31, 2012, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 02:04:39 PM
Are you Itchy in disguise?

In their own land = In their own state.

Crystal?

Nothings crystal in the mirky world left after the imperial empires have left places in a sorry state.

where is this own state/own land you talk of and when did it come into existence?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 03:19:55 PM
Two pieces of land, East and West of the state of Israel. Palestine, I think they call it. They could have a lot more land in 1947 if they had accepted the UN resolution, but choose to refuse and ended up losing a hell of a lot more. Not the sharpest tools in the box.
Please call again if you want to discuss it seriously.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on December 31, 2012, 03:34:41 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on December 31, 2012, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 02:04:39 PM
Are you Itchy in disguise?

In their own land = In their own state.

Crystal?

Nothings crystal in the mirky world left after the imperial empires have left places in a sorry state.

where is this own state/own land you talk of and when did it come into existence?

Israel's borders, in their own warped minds, grow larger every day as they ethnically cleanse people and then plant settlers on that same land. They use the politics of fear to do this, exaggerating the threat igniting memories of the holocaust in the minds of the Israeli population so that they will support these actions of theft, cleansing and murder for "security". Its the same formula used by America when invading Iraq illegally and of course that threat was a lie. The Arab world is no threat to Israel who sits on an arsenal of nuclear weapons. Israel is all about stealing land to make a larger Jewish state and whoever has to pay for that dream, well that is their tough luck. Not until the us grows some balls and starts doing what is right and starts ignoring the ferocious Jewish lobby will anything ever change.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: johnneycool on December 31, 2012, 03:57:17 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 03:19:55 PM
Two pieces of land, East and West of the state of Israel. Palestine, I think they call it. They could have a lot more land in 1947 if they had accepted the UN resolution, but choose to refuse and ended up losing a hell of a lot more. Not the sharpest tools in the box.
Please call again if you want to discuss it seriously.

So the state of Israel existed pre 1947?

Image the Palestinians not being happy with the UN making them concede land to a then non-existent Israeli nation, just to appease the British who'd already done a deal with Rothschild during WWI.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on December 31, 2012, 03:57:17 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 03:19:55 PM
Two pieces of land, East and West of the state of Israel. Palestine, I think they call it. They could have a lot more land in 1947 if they had accepted the UN resolution, but choose to refuse and ended up losing a hell of a lot more. Not the sharpest tools in the box.
Please call again if you want to discuss it seriously.

So the state of Israel existed pre 1947?

Image the Palestinians not being happy with the UN making them concede land to a then non-existent Israeli nation, just to appease the British who'd already done a deal with Rothschild during WWI.
Now you're being silly. No one said modern day Israel existed pre 1947.

How did palestinians concede land they never owned? The land Israel got was part of the UN deal with the British, who governed the British mandate of palestine. Under the agreement the arabs (there was no such thing as a "palestinian" then) were to get nearly double the land they have now. The land Israel was allocated had a majority jewish population, so could hardly have been classed arab. What is now Jordan was also part of the British mandate of palestine, but I don't hear much about the palestinians calling for that to be given to them. Could it be that they just want rid of the jews? No, surely not.  ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 31, 2012, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on December 31, 2012, 03:57:17 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 03:19:55 PM
Two pieces of land, East and West of the state of Israel. Palestine, I think they call it. They could have a lot more land in 1947 if they had accepted the UN resolution, but choose to refuse and ended up losing a hell of a lot more. Not the sharpest tools in the box.
Please call again if you want to discuss it seriously.

So the state of Israel existed pre 1947?

Image the Palestinians not being happy with the UN making them concede land to a then non-existent Israeli nation, just to appease the British who'd already done a deal with Rothschild during WWI.
Now you're being silly. No one said modern day Israel existed pre 1947.

How did palestinians concede land they never owned? The land Israel got was part of the UN deal with the British, who governed the British mandate of palestine. Under the agreement the arabs (there was no such thing as a "palestinian" then) were to get nearly double the land they have now. The land Israel was allocated had a majority jewish population, so could hardly have been classed arab. What is now Jordan was also part of the British mandate of palestine, but I don't hear muwhch about the palestinians calling for that to be given to them. Could it be that they just want ridwherz of the jews? No, surely not.  ::)
Where did jews live before they ethnically cleansed palestine? Peres was born in poland. Sharon's people were russian. By your logic norn irn belongs to the protestants. It is the same settler colonialism.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 07:34:44 PM
Nick Griffin would be proud of you. None of them pesky foreigners wanted here, isn't that right....

Any way, a happy new year to you and yours.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on December 31, 2012, 09:45:56 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 07:34:44 PM
Nick Griffin would be proud of you. None of them pesky foreigners wanted here, isn't that right....

Any way, a happy new year to you and yours.
why don't you slur the GLBT community while you are at it? The jewish state won't live to see 2048. Apartheid will kill it. You can't polish the turd of apartheid. Only one EU country supported Israel and voted against recognition of Palestine at the UNGA last month. 2014 will be even worse for Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 01, 2013, 01:15:02 PM
The Palestinian Lie

[Emanuel A. Winston, Middle East Analyst & Commentator]
Summary ... Even before the British Mandate, it was the Jews who were known as the Palestinians, not the Arabs. It wasn't until 1964 that the Arabs claimed the name for a non-existent people. Unfortunately, the world chooses ignorance over facts, and so this non-existent people have suddenly became a people, complete with a non-existent history.


The Brits, during their Mandate, always called the Jews "Palestinians" and they called the Land "Palestine". Arabs were simply Arabs and the British made little attempt to maintain a census of which Arab State they came from.(1)

It wasn't until 1964 (before the 1967 Six Days War, when Israel liberated and united Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights and Jerusalem) that Egypt (having lost two major wars to the small in number, lightly armed Jews of Israel) created the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization). Shortly afterwards, Yasir Arafat became the Terror Leader of the Century, taking over as head of the PLO.

The Arab League liked the idea of the PLO, an organization for all the mix of Muslim Arabs who had moved from all the surrounding Arab Muslim countries into [the] area of Eretz Yisrael for the work and health benefits the Jews had provided since the 1800s when they began their modern immigration back into their ancestral lands of two thousand years past.

So the Arab League and Arafat wanted to give them an identity. Arafat called them Falastinians, which is Palestinian with an accent [there is no "p" sound in the Arabic language-ed].

In brief, Arafat created a false identity for his non-people. It is an accepted custom that whatever words leave the mouth of an Muslim Arab, no matter how inaccurate or absurd, become [an] instant reality — both to the speaker and those who hear their claims.

So, Jewish Palestinians — long before the Arabs stole the name, had their name erased and stolen by Arab Muslim nations — except for what they make up to suit their needs. Remember the Jews published the Palestine Post newspaper, created and ran the Palestine Banks, etc.

History is irrelevant to Muslim Arabs except for what they make up to press their claims.

Imagine, nations like Great Britain, France, Russia and America who not only document their history but expect all other nations to recognize their documents and claim on history.

But, when it comes to exactitude of Arab Muslim claims and history, they simply accept without challenge — lest they insult the vaunted pride and honor of an Muslim Arab caught in a lie.

Not so the Muslim Arabs. They make up what they wish to make up but, they expect the revisionists of history to go along and accept their claims where and when no truth exists.

Presently, the West is discussing Islam and Muslim terror as if it just occurred recently, on December 25th, or May 1st. However, as desert dwellers, Arab Muslims raided, looted, raped and slaughtered their captives. This was also true whether their captives were "infidels" or Muslims from a different tribe.

"The San Remo Conference decided on April 24, 1920 to assign the Mandate [for Palestine] under the League of Nations to Britain. The terms of the Mandate were also discussed with the United States which was not a member of the League. An agreed text was confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on July 24, 1922." Their declared purpose was "to establish in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people."

The San Remo Agreement and subsequent ratification by the League of Nations was never revoked and thus is still legally binding.

The killing of Jews by Arab Muslims began long before the official stamp of approval by the League of Nations, and later the United Nations in 1947 for the Jewish people in the Land called Israel on May 14, 1948. But, how quickly the nations accepted the name and false claims made by Yasir Arafat in 1964. How anxious they all were to join the lie that Arafat's Falastinians actually had a past and a history.

The only historical truth in depth was that the Muslim Arabs lived by the sword and terror was their history.

So, here we are today, with Falastinians backed by President Barack Hussein Obama claiming that Jerusalem must be divided and shared by the Jews with a non-people who have no history — let alone any existence or historical claim on Jerusalem as a Capital.

What nation would willingly divide their Capital because others demanded it?

Granted, conquerors don't ask, they just take.

Nations, however, have their own interests and bias which is why the Christian nations of Europe, themselves persecuting Jews, found no difficulty in joining the Arabs against the Jews in the Land of Israel. Keep in mind that the European nations considered Muslims as lowly pagans, not worth of occupying Jerusalem and thus mounted several Christian Crusades from 1095 to 1291 ce to 'rescue' Jerusalem from the Muslims — killing many Jews along their journeys to Jerusalem.

The European nations managed to overcome their aversion to Arab Muslims when it came to pursuing oil and persecuting the Jews of Israel whose capital of Jerusalem was 3,000 years old and eternal.

So, if it means sacrificing little Israel to a pagan people for whatever it brings in profits, oil or whatever, these nations will lie, cheat, steal, betray — all without conscience or feelings of guilt.

The lie is the rule — not the exception.


http://emetnews.org/analysis/the-palestinian-lie.php (http://emetnews.org/analysis/the-palestinian-lie.php)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on January 01, 2013, 04:51:21 PM
Does this mean that Jerusalem is the Capital of Palestine?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 01, 2013, 05:04:59 PM
BDB
Do you believe that erez Israel was empty before the first zionists arrived and that the Palestinians are all descendants of economic migrants who only started arriving post 1880? Because that is what your post above says. I.presume you stand by it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 01, 2013, 05:16:26 PM
Jaysus that is one serious amount of bile there Baldy.

QuoteThe only historical truth in depth was that the Muslim Arabs lived by the sword and terror was their history.

Imagine anyone saying that about us or anyone else. Or God forbid, about the Jews.

QuoteSo, here we are today, with Falastinians (sic) backed by President Barack Hussein Obama claiming that Jerusalem must be divided and shared by the Jews with a non-people who have no history — let alone any existence or historical claim on Jerusalem as a Capital.

Now I see where you get your 'little mites' thinking. Or as the vicious supremacist author above calls them, 'non-people who have no history'. It is really incredible that within one generation of the Holocaust you can have a Jew, of all people, spouting the similar hateful ideology. For a man who pretends to lecture the world on history, he doesn't seem remotely capable of learning anything from it.


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 01, 2013, 05:50:01 PM
QuoteThe Brits, during their Mandate, always called the Jews "Palestinians" and they called the Land "Palestine". Arabs were simply Arabs and the British made little attempt to maintain a census of which Arab State they came from.(1)

Contrary to the above the British Census of 1931 recorded the follow stats for those living in Palestine who were born outside Palestine: Muslims, 2%; Christians, 20%; Jews, 58%.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2341903?uid=3738232&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101486467683 (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2341903?uid=3738232&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101486467683)

Evidently 98% of Muslims didn't come from another Arab State, i.e. they were locals. This makes a farce of the entire premise of that article.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 01, 2013, 08:26:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 31, 2012, 12:43:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on December 30, 2012, 08:55:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2012, 07:50:43 PM
It has a law which entitles any jew anywhere to immediate citizenship .It  is the  soi  disant Jewish  state . It shuts  down on saturdays . It only observes Jewish holidays. It only funds Jewish archaeology .  Half of its population is not  Jewish. Why are we supposed not to mention 'jew 'in the same breath  as israel ? It suits the settlers  in hebron  to paint  stars of David alongside graffiti like 'gas the arabs' but any use of the term jew on this board is antisemitic . BS.
Israel doesn't stop someone from moving there because they aren't Jewish. Positive discrimination is in use in many countries world wide. UK and Ireland observe only Christian holidays, with the vast majority of laws based on Christian beliefs. There are extremists in every country who will paint graffiti with their warped views, Israel is no different.
any jew gets a passport. 10000 east jerusalem palestinians lose residency rights in their own city every year. There are no muslim public holidays in israel. Almost half of the population of greater israel.is muslim. Israel is worse than norn irn was in the 1920s. At least the unionists never used white phosphorous. Comparing Israel to the uk is a joke. The uk doesn't denominate road access on the basis of religion.
Where do you get your population numbers from? Out of a population of 7,981,000 Israel is 75.4% jewish, muslim 20.6% with the rest made up of christians etc. Some roads are restricted to cars witisraeh non Israeli number plates, nothing to do with the drivers religion. This is a security measure to cut down the number of drive-by shootings, and has been a big success.
Israel ceased to exist on 6 june 1967. It was replaced by greater israel which covers the old Israel. Gaza and the West Bank. All of the land of Greater Israel is Jewish according to the Likud. Only half of the people who live in greater Israel are Jewish. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 01, 2013, 09:08:53 PM
How long have I been asleep? I could have sworn that before I dropped off that Judea and Samaria hadn't been annexed. But it's a nice thought.  ;)
Are you saying that it's part of Israel, and the "west bank" isn't occupied? If it isn't occupied, then who is oppressing the poor wee palestinians? Come on now, you can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 01, 2013, 09:34:31 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 01, 2013, 09:08:53 PM
How long have I been asleep? I could have sworn that before I dropped off that Judea and Samaria hadn't been annexed. But it's a nice thought.  ;)
Are you saying that it's part of Israel, and the "west bank" isn't occupied? If it isn't occupied, then who is oppressing the poor wee palestinians? Come on now, you can't have it both ways.
no need for annexation . Just divide the land into 3 non contiguous cantons, plant 800000 jewish settlers or one in 6 of all Israeli jews on the land and follow dayan's advice on what to do with the Palestinians. Treat them like dogs. Those who want to can leave. Get the Jewish religion behind the project and fob the goys off with shite about peace and democracy.  Onwards to apartheid.
Of course you can't even define Israel's borders. It doesn't even have a constitution.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 01, 2013, 10:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 01, 2013, 09:34:31 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 01, 2013, 09:08:53 PM
How long have I been asleep? I could have sworn that before I dropped off that Judea and Samaria hadn't been annexed. But it's a nice thought.  ;)
Are you saying that it's part of Israel, and the "west bank" isn't occupied? If it isn't occupied, then who is oppressing the poor wee palestinians? Come on now, you can't have it both ways.
no need for annexation . Just divide the land into 3 non contiguous cantons, plant 800000 jewish settlers or one in 6 of all Israeli jews on the land and follow dayan's advice on what to do with the Palestinians. Treat them like dogs. Those who want to can leave. Get the Jewish religion behind the project and fob the goys off with shite about peace and democracy.  Onwards to apartheid.
Of course you can't even define Israel's borders. It doesn't even have a constitution.

Now I understand what the Gathering is about.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 02:25:52 PM

Security Fence Along Egypt Border Complete





Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu attended a ceremony Wednesday to mark the completion of the security fence along the Egyptian border.


The construction of the fence – 230 kilometers in length – took two years, approximately half of the time that was originally planned, and cost approximately NIS 1.6 billion. It was put up to help deal with the problem of infiltrators sneaking into Israel through the lengthy border with Egypt.



Netanyahu said, "For seven months, not one infiltrator has reached Israel's cities. Just as we have stopped infiltration into Israel's cities, so too will we succeed in the next mission – repatriating the tens of thousands of infiltrators in Israel to their countries of origin. We have already begun to do so. I have appointed Hagai Hadas to deal with the issue and we can already see results of his efforts. We also need to complete the work on the country's other borders."

The Prime Minister told those in charge of the project, "This is a great achievement. You did the impossible. I would like to convey to you the gratitude of all Israelis."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/258923 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/258923)

One down.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
BDB,
You mentioned to an earlier reply to me that the Israelis feel the weight of international opinion is largely against them; they have a siege mentality (or something to that effect.)
Undoubtedly, the former is true.
I believe that the Jewish struggle to establish a state was widely supported by people all over the world in the aftermath of WWII. Jews had built up an enormous fund of goodwill, arising out of sympathy people everywhere felt for them as the true extent of the atrocities they suffered at the hands of Hitler and Stalin became evident.
This is what my father told me and others of his generation said the same and I see no reason to doubt what I was told.
County Mayo at any rate, backed the Jewish attempts to establish a homeland of their own! ;D
I think it's equally fair to say that most, if not all, of this sympathy has now disappeared.
From what I can gather, this in the main is due to the Israeli policy of establishing settlements on disputed territories.
There are other reasons of course but this is a central issue and it's  one with which Irish people can readily identify. Forceful eviction and being dumped on the roadside was an all too common occurrence down the ages for our ancestors.
I'd like to have your thoughts on the subject.
Do you feel that all of those forceful occupations are legal and justified?
Is the Israeli agenda  in this case being driven by religious zealots or is it considered government policy?
Do you agree that this encroachment on lands regarded as Palestinian by most of the international community is a reason for the loss of sympathy and support?
Finally, have you any idea of the extent to which the Israelis intend to go when establishing those settlements? In other words, what is the minimum amount of territory they are prepared to leave in Palestinian hands?
Once again, my questions are genuine and I'd very much like to find out what your  opinions on the subject may be.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 04:51:24 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
BDB,
You mentioned to an earlier reply to me that the Israelis feel the weight of international opinion is largely against them; they have a siege mentality (or something to that effect.)
Undoubtedly, the former is true.
I believe that the Jewish struggle to establish a state was widely supported by people all over the world in the aftermath of WWII. Jews had built up an enormous fund of goodwill, arising out of sympathy people everywhere felt for them as the true extent of the atrocities they suffered at the hands of Hitler and Stalin became evident.
This is what my father told me and others of his generation said the same and I see no reason to doubt what I was told.
While the formation of what most would call modern Israel did indeed come about as an act of sympathy (blood money) in the aftermath of ww11. But in reality it's modern birth started long before, with the British (Balfour) intention of giving jews their own home in "British Mandate of Palestine."  This BMoP included modern day Jordan, which should be described as a "palestinian homeland." The original Land was to be from the Jordan river to the Med, but this was eventually halved by 1947.

Quote
County Mayo at any rate, backed the Jewish attempts to establish a homeland of their own! ;D
I think it's equally fair to say that most, if not all, of this sympathy has now disappeared.
From what I can gather, this in the main is due to the Israeli policy of establishing settlements on disputed territories.
There are other reasons of course but this is a central issue and it's  one with which Irish people can readily identify. Forceful eviction and being dumped on the roadside was an all too common occurrence down the ages for our ancestors.
That is the difference you see, the Israelis believe that the settlements have been established in "disputed territories," and are therefore not illegal. Personally I don't believe the vast majority of them are needed or warranted, although some of them are.
When you feel sympathy for the palestinians you say have been "dumped on the roadside" are you forgetting who's land it was in the first place? Any Irish man will tell you that this island we live on is irish soil, and always has been. We are still trying to regain 6 counties back from the British, after over 300 years of settlements, plantation and murder. Try looking at it from an Israeli point of view. They were forced from their land many centuries ago, and now want to reclaim it. Who are we to deny them what was taken from them by invaders, as rightfully theirs?

Quote
I'd like to have your thoughts on the subject.
Do you feel that all of those forceful occupations are legal and justified?
If by "forcefull occupations" you mean settlements, then no. I believe many of them are driven by religious zealots who have no regard for anyone's wishes but their own. Many of these settlements are sited on Israeli owned land, state lands and land bought by Israelis. Very many of the disputed sites are ones that were vacant, but taken over by pals, who claimed it as being in their families hands for generations, when in fact aeriel photographs have proved there had been no buildings on the site until recently. Others, I believe, are justified. As in Jerusalem.

Quote
Is the Israeli agenda  in this case being driven by religious zealots or is it considered government policy?

Some settlements are part of Israeli government policy, but many aren't, and are being torn down by Israeli army/contractors on a regular basis.

Quote
Do you agree that this encroachment on lands regarded as Palestinian by most of the international community is a reason for the loss of sympathy and support?
Yes, partially. But then again, up until recently, there was a large part of this island regarded by the world as British, but this too is changing.

Quote
Finally, have you any idea of the extent to which the Israelis intend to go when establishing those settlements? In other words, what is the minimum amount of territory they are prepared to leave in Palestinian hands?
Once again, my questions are genuine and I'd very much like to find out what your  opinions on the subject may be.

Israel dismantled all it's settlements in Gaza as part of a peace agreement which was supposed to bring peace to the south of the country. All that happened was it gave the militants a secure base to attack Israel from.
I believe that if and when there is an eventual settlement (no pun intended), that the Israelis will withdraw behind the seperation wall, which runs roughly along the 1967 armistice line. It's worth noting that there has never been a defined agreement on what the exact Israeli border is, as the arabs refused to negotiate it in 1948.



Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: trileacman on January 02, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
BDB,
You mentioned to an earlier reply to me that the Israelis feel the weight of international opinion is largely against them; they have a siege mentality (or something to that effect.)
Undoubtedly, the former is true.
I believe that the Jewish struggle to establish a state was widely supported by people all over the world in the aftermath of WWII. Jews had built up an enormous fund of goodwill, arising out of sympathy people everywhere felt for them as the true extent of the atrocities they suffered at the hands of Hitler and Stalin became evident.
This is what my father told me and others of his generation said the same and I see no reason to doubt what I was told.
County Mayo at any rate, backed the Jewish attempts to establish a homeland of their own! ;D
I think it's equally fair to say that most, if not all, of this sympathy has now disappeared.
From what I can gather, this in the main is due to the Israeli policy of establishing settlements on disputed territories.
There are other reasons of course but this is a central issue and it's  one with which Irish people can readily identify. Forceful eviction and being dumped on the roadside was an all too common occurrence down the ages for our ancestors.
I'd like to have your thoughts on the subject.
Do you feel that all of those forceful occupations are legal and justified?
Is the Israeli agenda  in this case being driven by religious zealots or is it considered government policy?
Do you agree that this encroachment on lands regarded as Palestinian by most of the international community is a reason for the loss of sympathy and support?
Finally, have you any idea of the extent to which the Israelis intend to go when establishing those settlements? In other words, what is the minimum amount of territory they are prepared to leave in Palestinian hands?
Once again, my questions are genuine and I'd very much like to find out what your  opinions on the subject may be.

Bit of a stretch to include Stalin in the same bracket as Hitler. Many different groups were persecuted under Stalin's reign. I don't make the point to lessen acknowledgement of what happened to the Jews in Russia but phrases like "Stalin and Hitler" is used by the Western media as an attempt to deflect from the actions of the West and create a school of thought that antisemitism only existed "over there" in the typical baddies Russia and Germany. Hitler clearly took it a step further but most of the Western countries were as antisemitic as Russia (if not more) pre-1939. A clearly deranged and aging Stalin did persecute a section of the Jews towards the end of his life but I think ranking Hitler and Stalin in the same bracket ignores the degree of antisemitism in the West.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 06:56:00 PM

Feiglin Urges Giving Arabs a $500,000 One-Way Ticket
Likud Knesset candidate hopeful Feiglin wants to pay each PA Arab $500,000 to leave Israel.


AAFont Size
By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 1/2/2013, 1:18 PM




Moshe Feiglin

Yoni Kempinski



Likud Knesset Member candidate Moshe Feiglin, indicted for trying to prostate himself in prayer on the Temple Mount, wants to pay each Palestinian Authority Arab $500,000 to leave Israel.


He unveiled the proposal at a "Sovereignty" conference sponsored by the Women in Green and which is discussing ideas for Israeli annexation of Judea and Samaria or part of it and for removing it from military control, as Israel did with the Golan Heights and areas in Jerusalem that were under tJordanian occupation before the Six-Day War in 1967.

"The country pays 10% of its gross national product every year to maintain the 'two-state solution' and the Oslo Accords," Feiglin said.

He explained the money is for the security fences and checkpoints, Iron Dome missile defense systems and guards whom he said are posted "at every café."

Feiglin said the same money could be used to pay every PA Arab half a million dollars to leave Israel. This idea was broached several weeks ago by columnist and political scientist Dr. Martin Sherman.

A long-time thorn in the side of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, Feiglin is not alone in the Likud party in stating strong nationalist views.

Several Likud MKs told the conference they support annexing all or part of Judea and Samaria and abolishing the Oslo Accords, whose content, as a matter of practicality, has little meaning outside of diplomatic circles, especially since Mahmoud Abbas ignored them in his recent unilateral request for UN recognition.

Reports, generally not disseminated by mainstream media, have shown that thousands of PA Arabs leave for other countries every year. Feiglin said  polls of Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza "show that 80% in Gaza and 65% in Judea and Samaria want to immigrate" and that paying them to do so is the "perfect solution."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163806 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163806)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 02, 2013, 08:22:29 PM
BDB is fairly typical of the thinking of the average Israeli right winger. The Palestinians are an invented people. They never owned land. Most only arrived when Zionism started. They have 22 other countries. The settlements are legal. Israel is entitled to all of the land including Jordan. Anyone who disagrees with any of this hates Jews and is an antisemite. 

Good luck selling this horseshit on the gaaboard.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 08:34:37 PM
Did you even read my post? We may have to get Itchy to up your medication.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 02, 2013, 08:49:25 PM
State bars Westerners living in West Bank from entering Israel, East Jerusalem

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/state-bars-westerners-living-in-west-bank-from-entering-israel-east-jerusalem.premium-1.491318


Israel recently renewed restrictions on the freedom of movement of foreigners nationals who live and work in the West Bank that prohibit them from entering East Jerusalem or Israel. The changes were discovered when foreigners learned, after renewing their tourist visas, that the words "Judea and Samaria only" had been stamped inside. Citizens from these countries who come to live in Israel or Jewish settlements in the West Bank are not subjected to these restrictions.

Neither the Interior Ministry's Population and Immigration Authority nor the coordinator of government activities in the territories responded to questions from Haaretz concerning the number of long-term foreign residents of the West Bank.

Some of these individuals are Palestinians who were born in the West Bank and whose residency status was rescinded by Israel prior to 1994 due to their prolonged residence abroad. Others are married to Palestinians, while still others work in the West Bank, often as university teachers.

The American Consulate in Jerusalem has expressed its displeasure with the restrictions. They contravene prior understandings to lift similar restrictions that the Interior Ministry imposed suddenly in the summer of 2009, when "PA only" was stamped in Western nationals' passports.

Although Israel never officially announced a policy change, this stamp, which theoretically limits people to Areas A and B (which under the Oslo Accords are under full Palestinian control and Israeli security control only, respectively ), has rarely been used in the past two years.

Maj. Guy Inbar, the coordinator of government activities in the territories, told Haaretz in a written statement: "There is no essential difference between the stamps. The agreements and the restrictions in permits remain as they were." He also wrote that the change was not new, and has been in place for more than six months. In response to a further query Inbar said the only change is the language used on the stamp.

Population and Immigration Authority spokeswoman Sabine Haddad also told Haaretz that there had been "no change in the matter." But according to officials in the Palestinian Interior Ministry, the renewed restriction in its new version ("Judea and Samaria only" ) was instituted on November 1. On that date it was applied to all foreign nationals of Palestinian origin, and subsequently to non-Palestinians. Several people interviewed by Haaretz confirmed the Palestinian officials' statements. For example, in the case of one American couple, the woman's visa was extended before November 1 and was not stamped with "Judea and Samaria only." The man's visa was extended after November 1 and did bear that stamp.

Another difference is that three and a half years ago the restricting stamp was applied to passports at the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan to the Jericho area by a border official answerable to the Interior Ministry. But the new stamps appear to be employed only when passports are brought in for visa renewal. Bearers bring their passport to the Palestinian Interior Ministry, which passes it on to the Palestinian Ministry of Civil Affairs, which passes it on to the Civil Administration, based at Beit El.

Beyond the restriction itself and the discrimination it represents, the prohibition against leaving the West Bank creates other problems for foreign nationals. It limits academics' access to archives and research institutions in Israel. Foreigners cannot drive cars with PA license plates, and the "Judea and Samaria only" restriction bars them from maintaining vehicles with Israeli license plates. Foreign citizens are also unable to reach their consulates in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. Israel also retains the power not to grant such individuals work visas, but rather only tourist visa, although the authorities know full well that many of these individuals have come to the PA to work, either as business people, academics or in various civil organizations. The people with whom Haaretz spoke complained about ambiguity, lack of transparency and difficulty in obtaining information from the authorities.

Haaretz was unable to obtain a response from the coordinator of government activities in the territories and the Population Registration Authority to questions such as whether the visa is multiple-entry or not, whether foreign citizens must request an entry permit to Israel - as required of Palestinians - through Palestinian coordinating committees; whether business people are exempt from the restriction; and why work permits are not being issued.

An American woman living in Ramallah told Haaretz that a member of the U.S. consular staff in Jerusalem "indicated that the U.S. is irritated because three years ago, the Israelis promised that they would not restrict the visas to PA only and now "they think they can get around it by putting 'Judea and Samaria only." The woman said the consular official also told her that the U.S. Consulate is collecting information on everyone who had received similar visas, with an eye toward issuing an official American response.

The American Consulate in Jerusalem neither confirmed nor denied the information in this report. However, it told Haaretz: "The U.S. Government takes seriously the concerns of American citizens living and traveling anywhere in the world," and that "The U.S. Government continues to engage with the Government of Israel on this issue, noting the necessity of fair and equal treatment of all U.S. citizens regardless of national origin or ethnicity."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 09:13:14 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 02, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
BDB,
You mentioned to an earlier reply to me that the Israelis feel the weight of international opinion is largely against them; they have a siege mentality (or something to that effect.)
Undoubtedly, the former is true.
I believe that the Jewish struggle to establish a state was widely supported by people all over the world in the aftermath of WWII. Jews had built up an enormous fund of goodwill, arising out of sympathy people everywhere felt for them as the true extent of the atrocities they suffered at the hands of Hitler and Stalin became evident.
This is what my father told me and others of his generation said the same and I see no reason to doubt what I was told.
County Mayo at any rate, backed the Jewish attempts to establish a homeland of their own! ;D
I think it's equally fair to say that most, if not all, of this sympathy has now disappeared.
From what I can gather, this in the main is due to the Israeli policy of establishing settlements on disputed territories.
There are other reasons of course but this is a central issue and it's  one with which Irish people can readily identify. Forceful eviction and being dumped on the roadside was an all too common occurrence down the ages for our ancestors.
I'd like to have your thoughts on the subject.
Do you feel that all of those forceful occupations are legal and justified?
Is the Israeli agenda  in this case being driven by religious zealots or is it considered government policy?
Do you agree that this encroachment on lands regarded as Palestinian by most of the international community is a reason for the loss of sympathy and support?
Finally, have you any idea of the extent to which the Israelis intend to go when establishing those settlements? In other words, what is the minimum amount of territory they are prepared to leave in Palestinian hands?
Once again, my questions are genuine and I'd very much like to find out what your  opinions on the subject may be.

Bit of a stretch to include Stalin in the same bracket as Hitler. Many different groups were persecuted under Stalin's reign. I don't make the point to lessen acknowledgement of what happened to the Jews in Russia but phrases like "Stalin and Hitler" is used by the Western media as an attempt to deflect from the actions of the West and create a school of thought that antisemitism only existed "over there" in the typical baddies Russia and Germany. Hitler clearly took it a step further but most of the Western countries were as antisemitic as Russia (if not more) pre-1939. A clearly deranged and aging Stalin did persecute a section of the Jews towards the end of his life but I think ranking Hitler and Stalin in the same bracket ignores the degree of antisemitism in the West.

Bear in mind that I was referring to the way the general public felt at the end of WWII and not expressing any personal opinion. I'd say most people were absolutely scared by the mere mention of Stalin''s name and he and his "Bolshies" were put on a par with the devil. Not surprising really because the Russians were communists and  in the public perception, communists were the antithesis of all Catholic Ireland stood for.

There was no way of verifying any reports reaching Ireland from Russia and with Church leaders leading the way, Ireland waited in fear for a Russian invasion. I think it's fair to say that the majority believed that Stalin had killed at least 6 million Jews.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 02, 2013, 10:03:32 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 08:34:37 PM
Did you even read my post? We may have to get Itchy to up your medication.
Everything is in your last posts. You are just another jewish supremacist fruitcake. Yesha isn't worth the loss of the Jewish state. Israel still has time to be saved but it has to be run by buberites and not bibis.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 10:24:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 04:51:24 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
BDB,
You mentioned to an earlier reply to me that the Israelis feel the weight of international opinion is largely against them; they have a siege mentality (or something to that effect.)
Undoubtedly, the former is true.
I believe that the Jewish struggle to establish a state was widely supported by people all over the world in the aftermath of WWII. Jews had built up an enormous fund of goodwill, arising out of sympathy people everywhere felt for them as the true extent of the atrocities they suffered at the hands of Hitler and Stalin became evident.
This is what my father told me and others of his generation said the same and I see no reason to doubt what I was told.
While the formation of what most would call modern Israel did indeed come about as an act of sympathy (blood money) in the aftermath of ww11. But in reality it's modern birth started long before, with the British (Balfour) intention of giving jews their own home in "British Mandate of Palestine."  This BMoP included modern day Jordan, which should be described as a "palestinian homeland." The original Land was to be from the Jordan river to the Med, but this was eventually halved by 1947.

Quote
County Mayo at any rate, backed the Jewish attempts to establish a homeland of their own! ;D
I think it's equally fair to say that most, if not all, of this sympathy has now disappeared.
From what I can gather, this in the main is due to the Israeli policy of establishing settlements on disputed territories.
There are other reasons of course but this is a central issue and it's  one with which Irish people can readily identify. Forceful eviction and being dumped on the roadside was an all too common occurrence down the ages for our ancestors.
That is the difference you see, the Israelis believe that the settlements have been established in "disputed territories," and are therefore not illegal. Personally I don't believe the vast majority of them are needed or warranted, although some of them are.
When you feel sympathy for the palestinians you say have been "dumped on the roadside" are you forgetting who's land it was in the first place? Any Irish man will tell you that this island we live on is irish soil, and always has been. We are still trying to regain 6 counties back from the British, after over 300 years of settlements, plantation and murder. Try looking at it from an Israeli point of view. They were forced from their land many centuries ago, and now want to reclaim it. Who are we to deny them what was taken from them by invaders, as rightfully theirs?

Quote
I'd like to have your thoughts on the subject.
Do you feel that all of those forceful occupations are legal and justified?
If by "forcefull occupations" you mean settlements, then no. I believe many of them are driven by religious zealots who have no regard for anyone's wishes but their own. Many of these settlements are sited on Israeli owned land, state lands and land bought by Israelis. Very many of the disputed sites are ones that were vacant, but taken over by pals, who claimed it as being in their families hands for generations, when in fact aeriel photographs have proved there had been no buildings on the site until recently. Others, I believe, are justified. As in Jerusalem.

Quote
Is the Israeli agenda  in this case being driven by religious zealots or is it considered government policy?

Some settlements are part of Israeli government policy, but many aren't, and are being torn down by Israeli army/contractors on a regular basis.

Quote
Do you agree that this encroachment on lands regarded as Palestinian by most of the international community is a reason for the loss of sympathy and support?
Yes, partially. But then again, up until recently, there was a large part of this island regarded by the world as British, but this too is changing.

Quote
Finally, have you any idea of the extent to which the Israelis intend to go when establishing those settlements? In other words, what is the minimum amount of territory they are prepared to leave in Palestinian hands?
Once again, my questions are genuine and I'd very much like to find out what your  opinions on the subject may be.

Israel dismantled all it's settlements in Gaza as part of a peace agreement which was supposed to bring peace to the south of the country. All that happened was it gave the militants a secure base to attack Israel from.
I believe that if and when there is an eventual settlement (no pun intended), that the Israelis will withdraw behind the seperation wall, which runs roughly along the 1967 armistice line. It's worth noting that there has never been a defined agreement on what the exact Israeli border is, as the arabs refused to negotiate it in 1948.

Thanks once again for your prompt and comprehensive reply.
I have just a few comments to pass on what you say.

QuoteIf by "forcefull occupations" you mean settlements, then no. I believe many of them are driven by religious zealots who have no regard for anyone's wishes but their own.

That's what I had thought alright. I presume you are referring to Zionists here. I understood that Palestinian activists resented every settlement on land they regarded as theirs and that armed guards were employed to protect all of those  so I used the term, "forceful occupation, " but I may well be wrong.


QuoteWhen you feel sympathy for the palestinians you say have been "dumped on the roadside" are you forgetting who's land it was in the first place?

No, I'm not but 2,000 or so years is a long time to go back to reclaim ancestral territory.
(I know it's hard to pinpoint an exact date as has there were many mass dispersions down throughout Jewish history but I think 2,000 is as good a reference point as any.)
I accept that the Jewish race suffered more down the centuries than any other one I know of and deserve a place they can call 'home' but the present  conflict could well go on for centuries to come.
It's going to have to be settled by compromise some day.

QuoteAny Irish man will tell you that this island we live on is irish soil, and always has been. We are still trying to regain 6 counties back from the British, after over 300 years of settlements, plantation and murder.
This is a lead on from what I've said above as military force seldom achieves anything of a long term nature. The state of Northern Ireland* has been in existence for 90 years and God knows enough force was used to keep it the way its founders wanted it to be. Unsurprisingly, this was not possible to achieve and compromise or accommodation if you prefer, has had to be reached.
On the other hand, the Nationalists can't expect the whole Unionist population of 1 million plus to feck off to somewhere else. They're stuck with each other.
Sooner or later Israelis and Palestinians will have to have meaningful talks aimed at a lasting settlement. This won't happen soon but I see no other way to end the conflict.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 10:33:04 PM
The difference between there and here, is that the palestinians do expect the Israelis to feck off somewhere else. The conflict they have there makes ours look like a squbble in a primary school playground. We have learned to live with each other, and hopefully someday we will be united, but the situation there looks like it can only worsen.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 03, 2013, 12:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 10:33:04 PM
The difference between there and here, is that the palestinians do expect the Israelis to feck off somewhere else. The conflict they have there makes ours look like a squbble in a primary school playground. We have learned to live with each other, and hopefully someday we will be united, but the situation there looks like it can only worsen.

The irony is that if, because of us, you had to live with what you are defending, you would shoot everyone one of us on sight.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 09:27:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 03, 2013, 12:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 10:33:04 PM
The difference between there and here, is that the palestinians do expect the Israelis to feck off somewhere else. The conflict they have there makes ours look like a squbble in a primary school playground. We have learned to live with each other, and hopefully someday we will be united, but the situation there looks like it can only worsen.

The irony is that if, because of us, you had to live with what you are defending, you would shoot everyone one of us on sight.

I can see the words, but I can only assume you have them in the wrong order. What are you trying to say?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 10:24:25 PM
That's what I had thought alright. I presume you are referring to Zionists here.

The thing about zionism is that the word is now being used to attack Israel. Those out to delegitimise Israel use it to try to evoke hatred in much the same as calling someone a nazi. Zionism is the word for jewish nationalism, which while many people don't like it, is a legitimate view to have. It's like Irish nationalism, or republicanism with different strands and both militant and moderate parts. The settlers you read about being evicted or attacking palestinians would be the zionist equivelant to the dissidents. Nut jobs.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 12:39:06 PM

Poll Shows 'Two-State Solution' Losing Steam Among Israelis

A poll released Thursday shows that, for the first time, a plurality of Israelis now oppose the "two-state solution."



By David Lev
First Publish: 1/3/2013, 10:30 AM

Samaria

President Shimon Peres, who in a speech on Sunday claimed that a large majority of Israelis supported setting up a Palestinian Authority state in land liberated by Israel in the 1967 Six Day War, is apparently behind the times. A poll released Thursday shows that, for the first time, a plurality of Israelis now oppose the "two-state solution."


The poll, by the highly respected Geocartographia organization, 45% of Israelis are against the idea of setting up a PA state in Judea and Samaria. Forty percent said they support it, and 14% did not respond to the question.


The question was asked as a part of the latest poll by the organization on whom voters plan to choose on Election Day. The poll showed that the Likud-Yisrael Beiteinu list continued to weaken, while the Bayit Yehudi party continued to strengthen. In a defining speech at Bar Ilan University three years ago, Likud leader Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu expressed his solid support for the establishment of a PA state in parts of Judea and Samaria.


In his speech Sunday, IPeres said that Israel had "no choice" but to pursue the "two state solution with Abu Mazen (PA chief Mahmoud Abbs) representing the Palestinians, because he is the only Palestinian leader that agrees with many of the basic thing Israel seeks in a settlement." Peres added that a "final status settlement with the Palestinians must be completed without delay. There is clear majority among Israelis for the two state solution. I know Abu Mazen for 30 years. We do not support every word he has said and we have some criticism, but I know the reality, and the reality is that Abu Mazen is the one and only Arab leader who has said that he is in favor of peace and against terror," Peres said.


Peres was slammed by the Likud and others on the right for expressing a political position on such a sensitive issue, since as President he is supposed to be non-partisan.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163836 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163836)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 03, 2013, 01:02:29 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 09:27:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 03, 2013, 12:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 10:33:04 PM
The difference between there and here, is that the palestinians do expect the Israelis to feck off somewhere else. The conflict they have there makes ours look like a squbble in a primary school playground. We have learned to live with each other, and hopefully someday we will be united, but the situation there looks like it can only worsen.

The irony is that if, because of us, you had to live with what you are defending, you would shoot everyone one of us on sight.

I can see the words, but I can only assume you have them in the wrong order. What are you trying to say?

If you were remotely bothered about what anyone else has to say you would understand. But looking at this thread you aren't bothered. You are trying to provoke reactions so yourself (or some fool like Mikey Sheehy) can jump up and down shouting 'anti-semite' claim some pathetic victory for yourself.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 03, 2013, 01:08:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 10:24:25 PM
That's what I had thought alright. I presume you are referring to Zionists here.

The thing about zionism is that the word is now being used to attack Israel. Those out to delegitimise Israel use it to try to evoke hatred in much the same as calling someone a nazi. Zionism is the word for jewish nationalism, which while many people don't like it, is a legitimate view to have. It's like Irish nationalism, or republicanism with different strands and both militant and moderate parts. The settlers you read about being evicted or attacking palestinians would be the zionist equivelant to the dissidents. Nut jobs.
Fair enough but this isn't made clear to the international community at large. People tend to be influenced by what they see and read and I guess what comes across doesn't do Israel's image any good. It's obvious that there are elements in Israeli society who want the Palestinians do do the fecking off to somewhere else. 
Beardy buckos in stovepipe hats taking on their own security forces don't project an image of  willingness to compromise and negotiate with anyone. They may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.
Is it fair to say that a large percentage of the Israeli people are more moderate than their international reputation suggests? The hawks dominate the agenda.
I've told by a number of people who are more familiar with happenings in Israel than I am that the desire of most people is to rear their children in safety and go about their daily business with as little fuss as possible.
Same I guess as the vast majority of both sections of the community in Northern Ireland.
When the Palestinians were granted observer status by the UN recently, the vote was carried by an overwhelmingly large majority. Even US support is not as forthcoming as it was.
Surely, 138 (I think) states can't be following the same hidden agenda?
The Palestinians will have to blink sometime and move back from confrontation but so do the Israelis.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 01:33:57 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 03, 2013, 01:08:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 10:24:25 PM
That's what I had thought alright. I presume you are referring to Zionists here.

The thing about zionism is that the word is now being used to attack Israel. Those out to delegitimise Israel use it to try to evoke hatred in much the same as calling someone a nazi. Zionism is the word for jewish nationalism, which while many people don't like it, is a legitimate view to have. It's like Irish nationalism, or republicanism with different strands and both militant and moderate parts. The settlers you read about being evicted or attacking palestinians would be the zionist equivelant to the dissidents. Nut jobs.
Fair enough but this isn't made clear to the international community at large. People tend to be influenced by what they see and read and I guess what comes across doesn't do Israel's image any good. It's obvious that there are elements in Israeli society who want the Palestinians do do the fecking off to somewhere else. 
Beardy buckos in stovepipe hats taking on their own security forces don't project an image of  willingness to compromise and negotiate with anyone. They may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.
Is it fair to say that a large percentage of the Israeli people are more moderate than their international reputation suggests? The hawks dominate the agenda.
I've told by a number of people who are more familiar with happenings in Israel than I am that the desire of most people is to rear their children in safety and go about their daily business with as little fuss as possible.
Same I guess as the vast majority of both sections of the community in Northern Ireland.
When the Palestinians were granted observer status by the UN recently, the vote was carried by an overwhelmingly large majority. Even US support is not as forthcoming as it was.
Surely, 138 (I think) states can't be following the same hidden agenda?
The Palestinians will have to blink sometime and move back from confrontation but so do the Israelis.
I don't think I can fault a word you've written, other than to clarify this point

QuoteThey may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.

They only punch above their weight shaping international opinion because their retarded actions give palestinians and their supporters the opportunity to portray them as the norm in Israeli society, therefore giving a grossly exaggerated view of Israeli society. Some of the governments policies don't exactly help either, but we shouldn't demonise an entire nation because of it's nut-jobs.
Not every Israeli wants Judea and Samaria annexed, to live in a kibbutz or the palestinians wiped out, but every single one of them wants to sleep secure in their beds at night. If that means building a fence around the whole damn country, then they'll do it. If it means stopping anyone not Israeli coming into the country, they'll do it. They really don't give a monkies what the world thinks, because they don't have anything to lose. They are already outcasts, and feel that no matter what they do, they'll still be hated. It's only if the outside world takes the time to look at the situation with open eyes will we learn the truth about what the reality is on the ground.
If the world were to judge us by the actions of the dissidents, how would you feel?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 01:58:39 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 03, 2013, 01:02:29 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 09:27:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 03, 2013, 12:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 10:33:04 PM
The difference between there and here, is that the palestinians do expect the Israelis to feck off somewhere else. The conflict they have there makes ours look like a squbble in a primary school playground. We have learned to live with each other, and hopefully someday we will be united, but the situation there looks like it can only worsen.

The irony is that if, because of us, you had to live with what you are defending, you would shoot everyone one of us on sight.

I can see the words, but I can only assume you have them in the wrong order. What are you trying to say?

If you were remotely bothered about what anyone else has to say you would understand. But looking at this thread you aren't bothered. You are trying to provoke reactions so yourself (or some fool like Mikey Sheehy) can jump up and down shouting 'anti-semite' claim some pathetic victory for yourself.
The only one here I would say is a true antisemite is Seafoid. His posts are rabidly antisemitic, with very lttle in the way of reason about them. There are some who just want to attack everything the other side says, no matter what they say, while having nothing constructive to add to the argument. Then you have the propogandist, who blindly clings to every word his palestinian masters utter, will give you the official palestinian press releases, without checking them to see if there is a shred of truth in it, while calling Israelis "murderers and baby killers," notably ignoring the murders and bombings perpertrated by the very people he so adores. Most others could generally be classed as "following the herd," in that as the poster sees himself as coming from a certain community, he should automatically toe the party line in support of the palestinians. Then there are the notable few who, while presumably being palestinian supporters, seem genuinely interested in what "the other side" has to say, and their reasoning behind it.
You can only learn the whole truth about any conflict if you can open your eyes and try to see it from the opposition's point of view.

I know which group you would fall into.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 03, 2013, 02:54:19 PM
So some settler reporter in 'judea and Samaria' reports that à majority of Israeli Jews do not want thePalestinians to get a not state . And that is grand per BOB. They can get ready for apartheid. It must be God's will for them.  Btw BOB there are  real antisemites in places like Hungary who have no problem with the notion of killing Jews because  they are Jews. And calling people who oppose the insanity of Israeli police today antisemites is pathetic . Israel will not survive apartheid. The jewish people deserve far better that to be led by sociopaths. They are better people that that.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 03:14:46 PM
And as if by magic......

There are plenty who come on here to "oppose the insanity of Israeli police" as you call it, without bringing it down to the perceived religion of the Israelis in question.  Can you not write one post without demonising someone's religion?
If someone is a bad person, they are a bad person. Their religion has f**k all squared to do with it. If I were to call (just an example, no inference is implied) **insert dissident's name** a bloodthirsty, catholic, murdering, sc**bag, I would be banned. But you are able to continually make wild accusations about people primarily because of their religion, with impunity. Why is that?
The only difference between you and your mates in Hungary is that they aren't keyboard warriors, and admit to being antisemites. You haven't even got the cojones to admit it.


*EDIT* Removed name to avoid ban
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 03, 2013, 05:19:51 PM
Bdb.That last one was incoherent. Bringing judaism into a discussion on the jewish state wtf. Have you ever been to judea? Why do you call it judea?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 05:45:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 03, 2013, 05:19:51 PM
Bdb.That last one was incoherent. Bringing judaism into a discussion on the jewish state wtf. Have you ever been to judea? Why do you call it judea?
See, there you go again. Still can't help yourself.  ;D

The term "west bank" only came into being when Jordan controlled the area, and is now used by those who wish to delegitimise any link the area has to judaism. The names Judea and Samaria go back thousands of years, while "west bank" only goes back as far as my first sh*te.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 03, 2013, 07:27:11 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 01:33:57 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 03, 2013, 01:08:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2013, 10:24:25 PM
That's what I had thought alright. I presume you are referring to Zionists here.

The thing about zionism is that the word is now being used to attack Israel. Those out to delegitimise Israel use it to try to evoke hatred in much the same as calling someone a nazi. Zionism is the word for jewish nationalism, which while many people don't like it, is a legitimate view to have. It's like Irish nationalism, or republicanism with different strands and both militant and moderate parts. The settlers you read about being evicted or attacking palestinians would be the zionist equivelant to the dissidents. Nut jobs.
Fair enough but this isn't made clear to the international community at large. People tend to be influenced by what they see and read and I guess what comes across doesn't do Israel's image any good. It's obvious that there are elements in Israeli society who want the Palestinians to do the fecking off to somewhere else. 
Beardy buckos in stovepipe hats taking on their own security forces don't project an image of  willingness to compromise and negotiate with anyone. They may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.
Is it fair to say that a large percentage of the Israeli people are more moderate than their international reputation suggests? The hawks dominate the agenda.
I've told by a number of people who are more familiar with happenings in Israel than I am that the desire of most people is to rear their children in safety and go about their daily business with as little fuss as possible.
Same I guess as the vast majority of both sections of the community in Northern Ireland.
When the Palestinians were granted observer status by the UN recently, the vote was carried by an overwhelmingly large majority. Even US support is not as forthcoming as it was.
Surely, 138 (I think) states can't be following the same hidden agenda?
The Palestinians will have to blink sometime and move back from confrontation but so do the Israelis.
I don't think I can fault a word you've written, other than to clarify this point

QuoteThey may form only a small part of the Israeli population but they punch above their weight when it comes to shaping international opinion and that's for sure.

They only punch above their weight shaping international opinion because their retarded actions give palestinians and their supporters the opportunity to portray them as the norm in Israeli society, therefore giving a grossly exaggerated view of Israeli society. Some of the governments policies don't exactly help either, but we shouldn't demonise an entire nation because of it's nut-jobs.
Not every Israeli wants Judea and Samaria annexed, to live in a kibbutz or the palestinians wiped out, but every single one of them wants to sleep secure in their beds at night. If that means building a fence around the whole damn country, then they'll do it. If it means stopping anyone not Israeli coming into the country, they'll do it. They really don't give a monkies what the world thinks, because they don't have anything to lose. They are already outcasts, and feel that no matter what they do, they'll still be hated. It's only if the outside world takes the time to look at the situation with open eyes will we learn the truth about what the reality is on the ground.
If the world were to judge us by the actions of the dissidents, how would you feel?
That's the reality I guess. A dog bites man type of story won't make the headlines but a man bites dog one certainly will.
Ordinary mundane happenings don't merit mention, whereas sensational ones grab the headlines. If the majority of the population of Israel are not intransigents and I believe they are not, this message is not coming across on our TV screens and in our papers.
True, we are getting a grossly exaggerated view of Israeli society but you can't blame/thank the Palestinian PR machine and their supporters for the footage and stories that are put before us on an all too frequent basis.
As you say, some of the governments policies don't exactly help either, which is putting it mildly.
Whether you agree with what it has to say or not, 'The Daily Telegraph' does help to shape British public opinion.
In this report (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8276943/Israel-aimed-to-cleanse-Gaza-neighbourhoods-in-2008-invasion.html), (23/Jan/2011) it is claimed that "former Israeli soldiers have for the first time allowed themselves to be named while blaming their commanders for encouraging a "disproportionate" response to Hamas's rockets. They said their commanders used to "psych up" soldiers before an operation so they were ready to shoot indiscriminately."

The report goes on to detail further breaches of stated Israeli government policy. including this: "In a report to be shown on Channel 4 News on Monday, Ohad, a 24-year-old tank commander, remembers being told the night before the operation that the entry into Gaza was to be "disproportionate". Once into Gaza, he said his orders were unambiguous: "The order was very clear that if a car came within 200 metres of me I could simply shoot at it. Shoot a shell at it."
Now, that's a man bites dog sort of story. The fact that 10 Israeli soldiers and three civilians died during this operation didn't get the same media coverage as the Palestinian casualty figures; 1,400 dead, 252 of those were children under the age of 16.
Now, whether you or I agree with it or not, the fact is that this paper carries weight when it comes to influencing public opinion. For me the salient point is that this incursion didn't stem the barrage of rocket attacks into Israel, which was supposed to be the object of the exercise.
Should Israeli allow itself to be influenced by world public opinion?
Is there an alternative?
The problem won't go away of its own accord and it seems a lot of Israeli people feel the same way. The fact that 40% of them favour a two-state solution amazes me. Keep in mind that this poll was conducted in the aftermath of the UN resolution granting observer status to the Palestinians at a time when the siege mentality was heightened. Seems Peres and Netanyahu feel the same way.
Heavy-handedness didn't work for the Brits in Ireland and I can't see it working for the Israelis either.
In 1916, the over the top reaction to what was in reality a minor spat in Dublin led to an almost total loss of support for the continuing English presence in ireland. Pearse & co. didn't change much but their executions did.
When the Black and Tans were loosed on the populace, they did more to speed up this departure than the IRA did. World opinion was outraged at their atrocities and nowhere more so than in England. The negative publicity they generated forced Lloyd George's hand more than the IRA could ever hope to do but, in fairness, they played their part.
Maybe the Israeli society should take note!
Finally, should the Israelis be concerned by the loss of international sympathy?
Well, we in southern Ireland had our own problems in this regard during the course of the recent troubles in the North. We were perceived to be a land ruled by terrorists and it really didn't matter if it were Provos or Loyalists who were featuring in the headlines.
Trade and tourism suffered an an already fragile economy was well and truly banjaxed by the additional security costs.
Irish living in Britain were subject to racial taunts and job discrimination at every turn.Everyone on the island, bar the nutters on both sides, were glad when confrontation was replaced by conciliation. Maybe the Israeli nation could learn from our bitter experiences?

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 03, 2013, 07:32:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 01:58:39 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 03, 2013, 01:02:29 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 09:27:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 03, 2013, 12:32:37 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 02, 2013, 10:33:04 PM
The difference between there and here, is that the palestinians do expect the Israelis to feck off somewhere else. The conflict they have there makes ours look like a squbble in a primary school playground. We have learned to live with each other, and hopefully someday we will be united, but the situation there looks like it can only worsen.

The irony is that if, because of us, you had to live with what you are defending, you would shoot everyone one of us on sight.

I can see the words, but I can only assume you have them in the wrong order. What are you trying to say?

If you were remotely bothered about what anyone else has to say you would understand. But looking at this thread you aren't bothered. You are trying to provoke reactions so yourself (or some fool like Mikey Sheehy) can jump up and down shouting 'anti-semite' claim some pathetic victory for yourself.
The only one here I would say is a true antisemite is Seafoid. His posts are rabidly antisemitic, with very lttle in the way of reason about them. There are some who just want to attack everything the other side says, no matter what they say, while having nothing constructive to add to the argument. Then you have the propogandist, who blindly clings to every word his palestinian masters utter, will give you the official palestinian press releases, without checking them to see if there is a shred of truth in it, while calling Israelis "murderers and baby killers," notably ignoring the murders and bombings perpertrated by the very people he so adores. Most others could generally be classed as "following the herd," in that as the poster sees himself as coming from a certain community, he should automatically toe the party line in support of the palestinians. Then there are the notable few who, while presumably being palestinian supporters, seem genuinely interested in what "the other side" has to say, and their reasoning behind it.
You can only learn the whole truth about any conflict if you can open your eyes and try to see it from the opposition's point of view.

I know which group you would fall into.

Given your posts here your hypocrisy is staggering, truly staggering.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 03, 2013, 07:35:29 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 05:45:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 03, 2013, 05:19:51 PM
Bdb.That last one was incoherent. Bringing judaism into a discussion on the jewish state wtf. Have you ever been to judea? Why do you call it judea?
See, there you go again. Still can't help yourself.  ;D

The term "west bank" only came into being when Jordan controlled the area, and is now used by those who wish to delegitimise any link the area has to judaism. The names Judea and Samaria go back thousands of years, while "west bank" only goes back as far as my first sh*te.
Where does the name judea come from and why do you use it ? Why is the state  alongside called Israel'? Nothing whatsoever to do with judaism ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 08:47:16 PM
Why do you hate Jews?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 04, 2013, 06:34:42 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 08:47:16 PM
Why do you hate Jews?
Why don't you stop beating your wife?

Come on BDB . Give us a reason to support Israeli apartheid. Surely you can come up with a better argument than 'if you don't you are a nazi'
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 04, 2013, 09:59:45 AM
I wonder if BDB has ever heard of the Bal Shem Tov.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 04, 2013, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 04, 2013, 06:34:42 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 08:47:16 PM
Why do you hate Jews?
Why don't you stop beating your wife?

Come on BDB . Give us a reason to support Israeli apartheid. Surely you can come up with a better argument than 'if you don't you are a nazi'
Classy guy
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 04, 2013, 04:20:43 PM
This is the type of individual that BDB would have us trying to understand:


(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/74551_491640287553361_638238081_n.png)


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 04, 2013, 04:30:26 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 04, 2013, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 04, 2013, 06:34:42 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 08:47:16 PM
Why do you hate Jews?
Why don't you stop beating your wife?

Come on BDB . Give us a reason to support Israeli apartheid. Surely you can come up with a better argument than 'if you don't you are a nazi'
Classy guy
nothing to say , have you ? And dropping half a billion dollars of munitions on Gaza  in 8 days is what Jewish destiny has become , is it ? Is this what 2 millenia of honest Jewish mitzvot was about?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 04, 2013, 07:48:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 04, 2013, 04:30:26 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 04, 2013, 02:16:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 04, 2013, 06:34:42 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 03, 2013, 08:47:16 PM
Why do you hate Jews?
Why don't you stop beating your wife?

Come on BDB . Give us a reason to support Israeli apartheid. Surely you can come up with a better argument than 'if you don't you are a nazi'
Classy guy
nothing to say , have you ? And dropping half a billion dollars of munitions on Gaza  in 8 days is what Jewish destiny has become , is it ? Is this what 2 millenia of honest Jewish mitzvot was about?
I'm flabbergasted that the mods have allowed this accusation to stay. I haven't reported it, but a comment like that shouldn't have to be reported.
This is a discussion forum, where even those with wildly differing opinions deserve to be treated with at least some respect. If I'd called you a paedophile, I would understand. You are scum.

SHAME ON YOU MODS
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: trileacman on January 04, 2013, 07:56:44 PM
Can you gobshites stop cluttering up the page with this shite? FFS ignore the troll for a while and see if he'll f**k off. This is childish.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 04, 2013, 11:11:03 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 04, 2013, 07:56:44 PM
Can you gobshites stop cluttering up the page with this shite? FFS ignore the troll for a while and see if he'll f**k off. This is childish.

+1
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 05, 2013, 01:50:32 AM
This is a link to what is widely regarded as the handbook for Hasbara / Propaganda for Israel. Well worth clicking on the link to see how they work in the whitewashing of ethnic cleansing and genocide.


http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fmedia%2F70%2Ftip_report.pdf&date=2009-08-06%3Cbr%3E

The Israel Project's 2009 GLOBAL LANGUAGE DICTIONARY

A PERSONAL MESSAGE FROM THE AUTHOR

I wrote my first Language Dictionary for The Israel Project in 2003.  Since that time, Israel has
had three Prime Ministers, several stalled peace initiatives, found itself the victim of attack from its
northern and southern borders, and has suffered greatly in the court of public opinion.

On the other hand, the daily suicide bombings have stopped, and Hamas & Hezbollah have
shown themselves to be the brutal terrorist organizations that Israel has warned about.  The more things change, the more they stay the same.

All of the material in this document is new or updated based on research conducted in 2008 and
2009.  Some of the language will be familiar; most of the "Words That Work" boxes come from Israeli representatives and spokespeople.  But, the polling, strategic recommendations and guidance are all based on the current situation.  I hope that advocates for Israel will benefit from the massive amount of work that went into the creation of this booklet.  I also hope that this will be the last Israel Language Dictionary I ever have to craft.

And remember, it's not what you say that counts.  It's what people hear.

Dr. Frank Luntz
   April 2009
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: thebigfella on January 05, 2013, 02:53:52 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 04, 2013, 11:11:03 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 04, 2013, 07:56:44 PM
Can you gobshites stop cluttering up the page with this shite? FFS ignore the troll for a while and see if he'll f**k off. This is childish.

+1

Your just as bad, in fact worse.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 07, 2013, 01:20:34 PM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4328659,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4328659,00.html)

Fallacy of pre-1967 borders


Op-ed: Palestinian call for return to pre-1967 borders attempt to bypass historical realities, omit two decades of military defeats

Riccardo Dugulin Published:  01.06.13, 10:22 / Israel Opinion 
 

At the end of May 2011, President Obama stepped away from a long-standing US policy and recognized the necessity for Israel to accept pre-1967 borders as a condition for peace with the Palestinian Authority.

Centered on a quasi-dogmatic view of the region, the idea evokes a basic misconception that has been jeopardizing the already feeble chances for durable peace and security both for Israel and the Palestinians.

Leftist Camp

The heart of the conflict / A.B. Yehoshua

Op-ed: A.B. Yehoshua says dovish camp must demand end to settlement enterprise before joining Bibi's third government 
Full Story

When addressing the issue of the territorial changes that followed the 1967 war, it has now become common knowledge for Western and Arab decision-making circles that the most moderate position available is the one offering a two-state solution broadly defined by the borders Israel had with Arab states prior to the Six Day War.

This theoretical situation offers a major insight into the fallacy crippling peace-oriented groups and pro-Palestinians activists. In reality, never as in the period between 1948 and 1967 were the Palestinians in Gaza, Judea and Samaria under a more overt and transparent military rule by foreign powers. Prior to 1967, Arab populations living in those areas did not see their aspirations of self-administration addressed and the notion of a separate state for the Palestinians was merely utilized to negate the existence of a Jewish State.

If the basic idea for Nasser or King Hussein of Jordan was to "drive the Jews to the sea," their personal intentions were linked to the glory with which such an event would provide them. The ultimate defeat of pan-Arab nationalism left the Palestinians as shattered as their previous protectors since, deprived of the relative safety of Arab-controlled safe havens, they no longer had the impunity to prepare terrorist operations.

The logical question that arises from such considerations is why the notion of "1967 borders" has become so sacred in the political discourse of international organizations, pressure groups and militant groups?

Entry into adulthood
Beyond the simple control of land, the call for returning to the "1967 borders" may be read as an implicit way of negating reality by those who have not been favored by it.

While Arab states denounce the Israeli military presence in Gaza, Judea and Samaria, little is mentioned about their persistent military occupation of these territories for two decades. The underlying reason originates from the fact that Western commentators have bought into the 'Arab solidarity' argument, which in some twisted logic would consider the perpetrator of an injustice less of a criminal if both the criminal and the victim were Arabs in the process of fighting a non-Arab power.

The different calls from Arab states to go back to the 1967 demarcation lines highlight their relative willingness to at least recognize the existence of Israel as a Jewish state, yet depriving the region of the basic tool for attaining peace: The common assurance of security. In fact, "1967 borders" embody the collective Arab ethos of the period during which the sovereignty and security of the State of Israel could be put in danger. The years prior to 1967 represent an era during which Arab States, not the Palestinians, were at the heart of the war against Israel. As a result, the defeat also meant the beginning of a cycle in which states would solely be sponsors of terrorist organizations, thus no longer being in the spotlight.

For the Palestinians, the 1967 defeat meant what may be considered as an entry into adulthood. They lost the ability to use the territory they claim as "theirs" under the protection assured by the presence of powerful armies, thus also losing the opportunity to wage terrorist attacks. Consequently, calling for the return to these borders is an effective strategy the Palestinian leadership chooses to follow while trying to bypass historical realities and omit two decades of military defeats.

The real puzzle is then why international organizations, Western governments and pressure groups are so easily seduced by an idea that lacks any meaningful rationale. Similarly to 1948, in 1967 the borders between Arab states and Israel were not recognized as an official start for a two-state solution, as it was revealed in the notorious Khartoum resolution of 1967. The reality on the ground is that Palestinian factions do revert to previously rejected positions as soon as the situation is no longer in their relative favor.

The notion of "1967 borders" should be argued against, not only in the light of the arguments brought up by political parties and security experts but because it stems from a discourse clearly divergent from peace.

Enduring peace and stability can only be achieved by a clear recognition of the events that took place in the past and of the concrete situation unfolding at present, notably the Palestinians' unwillingness to enter negotiations based on shared interests.

By supporting the concept of "1967 borders" the international community reverts back to a period in which Arab powers established military occupation in Gaza, Judea and Samaria while waging and supporting terror attacks on Israel, a fallacy drastically undermining peace-oriented efforts.

Riccardo Dugulin holds a Master degree from the Paris School of International Affairs (Sciences Po) and is specialized in International Security. He is currently working in Paris for a Medical and Security Assistance company. He has worked for a number of leading think tanks in Washington DC, Dubai and Beirut. Personal website: www.riccardodugulin.com

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 07, 2013, 01:24:09 PM
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23607/Default.aspx (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23607/Default.aspx)



Palestinians don't want Palestinian refugees




Sunday, January 06, 2013 |  Aviel Schneider   



The Palestinian governments in Gaza (Hamas) and the so-called "West Bank" (Mahmoud Abbas) have refused to take Palestinian refugees from war-ridden Syria.

Recently, the UN Works and Relief Agency (UNWRA), which was created to handle the issue of Palestinian Arab refugees, asked the Palestinian governments to allow their brothers from Syria to enter.

Palestinian Arabs in Syria have had to flee their refugee camps under attack from Syrian rebels who view the Palestinians as supporters of dictator Bashar Assad.

Gaza-based Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh refused to take the refugees on the grounds that doing so would set a dangerous precedent for more Palestinian refugees to come to the Gaza Strip. He declared that these refugees should return to Israel and not to the Gaza Strip.

Haniyeh further argued that Gaza doesn't have the financial resources to absorb any refugees.

Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas similarly refused entry into the PA-controlled parts of Judea and Samaria.

Even though the Palestinian governments in Gaza and Ramallah truly don't have the financial resources to take on refugees, the refusal to help their brothers in a time of great danger is still strange.

On the one hand, the Palestinians in Gaza and Ramallah constantly ask UNWRA for help for themselves, but on the other they refuse help to their people who see themselves as refugees as well.

Sixty years ago, Israel didn't have the financial resources to take on refugees either, but over 600,000 fleeing Jews were welcomed with open arms and given a place in the country.

It is clear the Palestinians don't really care about a "right of return," rather they want to destroy the Jewish state demographically, while keeping these outsiders out of Palestinian towns and villages. The refugee problem is only a tool against Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: LeoMc on January 07, 2013, 02:20:13 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on January 05, 2013, 02:53:52 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 04, 2013, 11:11:03 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 04, 2013, 07:56:44 PM
Can you gobshites stop cluttering up the page with this shite? FFS ignore the troll for a while and see if he'll f**k off. This is childish.

+1

Your just as bad, in fact worse.

Ah now there is a big difference in GHD and Seafoid / BDB (not just him being a Tyrone man) and I would have respect for his opinions.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 07, 2013, 10:11:23 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/07/naftali-bennett-interview-jewish-home

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is "insoluble" and most Israelis "couldn't care less about it any more", according to Naftali Bennett, the surprise star of the election campaign, whose extreme rightwing nationalist and pro-settler Jewish Home is within sight of becoming the country's second-biggest party.

In an interview with the Guardian, Bennett said he did not intend to waste the next four years "babbling about Israel and the Palestinians", and defended his plan to annex most of the West Bank in the face of international opposition, which was the "result of ignorance".

"There is not going to be a Palestinian state within the tiny land of Israel," he said, referring to the area from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean. "It's just not going to happen A Palestinian state would be a disaster for the next 200 years."

Instead of a two-state solution, Bennett has proposed the unilateral annexation of Area C, the 60% of the West Bank that contains all Jewish settlements and is currently under Israeli military control. Palestinians currently living in Area C could either take Israeli citizenship or relocate to the Palestinian-governed 40% of the West Bank.

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/370-palestines-island-paradise-now-with-a-word-from-its-creator
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 06:33:10 PM
Family values, palestinian style





Hamas politician's wife: We must teach our kids to die




Tuesday, January 08, 2013 |  Israel Today Staff   


The wife of a Hamas member of the Palestinian parliament recently demonstrated the stark difference between the dominant values in Israeli Jewish society that those that have sadly taken hold in much of Palestinian society.

In a December 2 interview with Al-Aqsa TV, Umm Osama, wife of Hamas lawmaker Khalil Al-Hayya, stated that a woman's role is no less important than a man's in "Palestine" because it is the mother who "instills in her children the love of Jihad and martyrdom for the sake of Allah."

Umm Osama continued by noting that "Allah's reward is Paradise...[and] Paradise requires from us our blood."

When the interviewer agreed that "we want to die as martyrs," Umm Osama responded:

"Indeed we do. I am constantly praying: 'Allah, make the end of our days be in martyrdom.' I pray for this even for my husband and my children."

It has been repeatedly pointed out that while such attitudes make genuine, long-lasting peace nearly impossible by ensuring the next generation of Palestinian Arabs hate Israel, it is also a form of child abuse for which those like Umm Osama appear wholly unrepentant.

It would be terribly wrong to say that all Palestinians think this way, but it must also be remembered that a large majority of Palestinian voters put Hamas in power in the last general election in 2006.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23612/Default.aspx (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23612/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 08:31:52 PM
We should thank BDB for showing us some of the shocking stuff being published as commentary in the media in Israel.

QuoteThe wife of a Hamas member of the Palestinian parliament recently demonstrated the stark difference between the dominant values in Israeli Jewish society that those that have sadly taken hold in much of Palestinian society

You need to read no further than the first sentence of the last article to get a taste of the way things get twisted. One of the biggest criticisms of Arab/Muslim culture is the subordinate role of women in their society. But low and behold, when it suits, in Israel they will take a few idiotic quotes from an official's wife as representative of the values of an entire race.

Does anyone here care what Willie Frazier's wife thinks? Didn't think so.

(http://info.sagepointsoftware.com/Portals/83210/images/candidate-skill-evaluation.jpg)

A more accurate picture would have the big man armed to the teeth.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:03:48 PM
QuoteDoes anyone here care what Willie Frazier's wife thinks? Didn't think so.
If mad willies wife was teaching the son of satan to be a suicide bomber, then yes.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 08, 2013, 09:36:25 PM
It has been repeatedly pointed out that while such attitudes make genuine, long-lasting peace nearly impossible by ensuring the next generation of Palestinian Arabs hate Israel, it is also a form of child abuse for which those like Umm Osama appear wholly unrepentant.

The world just doesn't buy that racist shite any more.
One EU country voted with Israel to deny the Palestinians an upgrade at the UN last November.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/30/map-how-the-world-voted-on-palestine.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 09:45:15 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:03:48 PM
QuoteDoes anyone here care what Willie Frazier's wife thinks? Didn't think so.
If mad willies wife was teaching the son of satan to be a suicide bomber, then yes.

And there it is.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:47:51 PM
The next generation of Palestinians will hate Israel if they are taught to do so by their mothers. If the most sacred person in your world teaches you to hate someone, you'll hate it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 08, 2013, 09:51:38 PM
If the people who drop the bombs on the refugee camps are Israelis and the kids all wet the bed with fear for years and there are no jobs because the Israelis won't let anything into the place obviously it's the fault of the mothers of the children that some of them are hostile to Israelis. When the kids ask "why did the Israelis drop half a billion dollars on us last month" the mothers should tell them about Abraham, is it ?

Why do the Israelis have to rule over the Palestinians with such cruelty ? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 09:56:09 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:47:51 PM
The next generation of Palestinians will hate Israel if they are taught to do so by their mothers. If the most sacred person in your world teaches you to hate someone, you'll hate it.

So the root cause of the whole conflict is Palestinian mothers?

This from the man who calls their children 'son of satan'.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:57:01 PM
The only army bombing Palestinian refugee camps right now, is the Syrian army. The board is conspicuously silent in that regard.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:59:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 08, 2013, 09:56:09 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:47:51 PM
The next generation of Palestinians will hate Israel if they are taught to do so by their mothers. If the most sacred person in your world teaches you to hate someone, you'll hate it.

So the root cause of the whole conflict is Palestinian mothers?

This from the man who calls their children 'son of satan'.
Put the glue bag down and read it again. I was clearly referring to mad willies son.  :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 08, 2013, 10:01:02 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:57:01 PM
The only army bombing Palestinian refugee camps right now, is the Syrian army. The board is conspicuously silent in that regard.
Fixed that for you. 

Half a billion dollars in 8 days dropped on Gaza. For what ? 
Moshiach ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:57:01 PM
The only army bombing Palestinian refugee camps right now, is the Syrian army. The board is conspicuously silent in that regard.

Yes indeed, Israel has put an entire Nation into defenceless refugee camps and they are completely exposed to tyranny from the likes of Assad, those who would exploit their position such as Iran and land hungry extremists in Israel. Yet you blame them for everything.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 08, 2013, 10:06:49 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 08, 2013, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 08, 2013, 09:57:01 PM
The only army bombing Palestinian refugee camps right now, is the Syrian army. The board is conspicuously silent in that regard.

Yes indeed, Israel has put an entire Nation into defenceless refugee camps and they are completely exposed to tyranny from the likes of Assad, those who would exploit their position such as Iran and land hungry extremists in Israel. Yet you blame them for everything.
He says there is no such thing as a Palestinian. There never were Arabs there before the Zionists turned up according to the settlers. .

 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 09, 2013, 12:10:57 AM

If the palestinian "state" is so concerned about the welfare of their pal brothers, why don't they just give them shelter, instead of using them as pawns in their twisted web of deceit.


Hamas, PA Leaders Refuse to Assist Suffering Syrian Brethren

Arab leaders, who court international sympathy by portraying their people as displaced victims, are refusing to help Syrian refugees.


AAFont Size
By Rachel Hirshfeld
First Publish: 1/8/2013, 9:06 PM

Syrian refugees at the Al-Zaatari refugee camp

Reuters

Palestinian leaders, who court international sympathy by portraying their people as displaced victims of Israel, are refusing to help tens of thousands of their brethren who have been displaced from homes and refugee camps as a result of the civil war plaguing the neighboring country of Syria.

Leaders of both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority have rebuffed requests by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency's (UNRWA) for assistance in stemming the humanitarian crisis in Syria, causing 150,000 Syrian citizens who claim "Palestinian" origins, to remain homeless and "facing freezing temperatures, missiles, bombs and food shortages," as Paul Alster of Fox News reports.

"[The UNRWA is] the only one taking care of the refugees in Syria, but that's not just now," Dr. Benedetta Berti, an international policy and security consultant and expert on Middle East affairs, told FoxNews.com. "The Palestinians have always deferred to the international community to provide for them (the refugees) so this is just business as usual."

Hamas Prime Minister Ismael Haniyeh believes that seeking refuge for Palestinians trapped in Syria could undermine his argument for a "Palestinian right of return" to what they deem "occupied Palestine," or, more accurately, the Jewish homeland in the State of Israel. The same rationale appears be one of the contributing factors to a similar lack of action from Mahmoud Abbas and his Palestinian Authority.

"The apparent unwillingness to lift a finger behind the scenes for fellow Palestinians in need is at odds with the Palestinians' public stance," Fox News reports, noting that Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Riyad Mansour, in a Dec. 19, 2012, letter to the UN Security Council, urged the world to help the Syrian refugees.

"The growing impact of this crisis on their (the refugees) human security and on the stability of the refugee camps has become of grave concern and compels me, on behalf of the Palestinian leadership, to call for the urgent attention of the international community to this matter," Mansour wrote.

Israel, on the other hand, has offered to send humanitarian aid to the Syrian people, but has, thus far, been rebuffed.

"A few months ago Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs offered to send humanitarian aid to the Syrian people, asking if it would be accepted through the Red Cross," Ilana Stein, deputy spokesperson at Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, told Fox. "The Red Cross contacted Syrian opposition representatives, but they said they didn't want it."

According to new figures released by the United Nations, at least 60,000 people have been killed in Syria's civil war, with monthly casualty figures steadily increasing since the conflict began almost two years ago.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163996 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163996)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 09, 2013, 05:23:09 AM
Fox News and the Israel National News? Wow. Must be objective then.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 09, 2013, 08:50:49 AM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/israel-vows-to-use-veto-power-if-chuck-hagel-confi


JERUSALEM—Top-ranking government officials in Jerusalem confirmed Tuesday that Israel would exercise its longstanding, constitutionally granted veto power over American policy if U.S. lawmakers confirmed retired congressman Chuck Hagel as the United States' next Secretary of Defense. "In light of Mr. Hagel's worrying remarks on Israeli-Palestinian relations and questionable classification of Israeli interests as 'the Jewish lobby,' we consider him a highly inappropriate choice for Defense Secretary who stands far out of line with our national priorities, and therefore we are prepared to swiftly and resolutely use our official veto power over this U.S. action," said Israeli government spokesperson Mark Regev of the legal maneuver that the small Middle Eastern nation has employed to block U.S. Cabinet nominees, U.S. legislation, U.S. international relations, and U.S. domestic policy over 1,400 times in its 64-year history. "Because congress does not possess the necessary nine-tenths majority to override an Israeli veto, they'll have no choice but to head back to the drawing board and provide a Defense Secretary whom we find more suitable." Sources confirmed that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had sent the White House a list of three individuals the Israeli leader considered appropriate to head the American military from which U.S. President Barack Obama could choose.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 09, 2013, 08:55:44 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 09, 2013, 05:23:09 AM
Fox News and the Israel National News? Wow. Must be objective then.
Muppet

INN is a settler outfit.
Note the  language

"assistance in stemming the humanitarian crisis in Syria, causing 150,000 Syrian citizens who claim "Palestinian" origins"
"his argument for a "Palestinian right of return" to what they deem "occupied Palestine," or, more accurately, the Jewish homeland in the State of Israel."

They don't recognise the right of Palestinians to live in their own country.  Or that there are even such people as Palestinians.

That is the tragedy of Israel. These people are actually running the show.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 09, 2013, 12:51:42 PM


http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/jewish-leaders-in-australia-say-media-not-so-fair-and-balanced-on-israel.premium-1.492862

"The turbulent relationship between Fairfax and Jewish leaders erupted again last month following the publication in The Age of a cartoon in the aftermath of Israel's showdown with Hamas that was branded as "virulent hate speech" by Dvir Abramovich, the Israeli-born chair of the B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation Commission.

The controversial cartoon – by the acclaimed Michael Leunig, who was declared an "Australian living treasure" by the National Trust in 1999, but who has also been a staunch critic of Israeli government policy – was an adaptation of German Pastor Martin Niemoller's famous "First they came for the Communists" poem.

In Niemoller's poem, which was originally a clarion call against apathy in the face of evil, "they" referred to the Nazis. In Leunig's parody, "they" referred to Israelis. "First they came for the Palestinians and I did not speak out..."
Abramovich led the chorus of condemnation arguing it "demonizes and vilifies Israelis and Jews" and is "the kind of hateful rhetoric you would expect on anti-Semitic websites, not The Age."

"In Leunig's world there are no Israeli victims, no blood spilt on the Israeli side of the border, no traumatized children or lives derailed," Abramovich argued. "There are only Israelis who are jackbooted Nazis determined to wipe them off the face of the earth."

The Anti-Defamation Commission requested a rebuttal in The Age but said it was rejected because "its claims about the cartoon were unreasonable."

The Age did, however, allow Leunig space to defend himself. "As a cartoonist I am not interested in defending the dominant, the powerful, the well-resourced and the well-armed because such groups are usually not in need of advocacy, moral support or sympathetic understanding," he wrote. "I am not against Israel but I am opposed to what I regard as its self-defeating, self-corrupting militarist policy, which is not only excessively homicidal and traumatizing but sows the seeds of irreversible hatred and can never bring a lasting peace."

Tzvi Fleischer, of the privately funded Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council, argued in a paper for Jewish Political Studies Review that the Australian media has a "mixed record" on Israel.

"Beyond bias, certain themes emerging in the Australian media are examples of the new anti-Semitism," he wrote. "These include the alleged financial and media power of the Jewish lobby; an extreme demonization of Israel and extravagant assertions about the supposed worldwide effects of its policy toward the Palestinians; conspiracy theories about American Jewish neoconservatives; and a tendency to claim that anti-Semitism is a response to Jewish behavior and attitudes"




So there you have it. Any mention of the Israeli lobby or criticism of Israel's suicidal policies is antisemitic. 


Cartoon

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2012/12/12/219438-leunig-defends-his-cartoon-first-they-came-for-the-palestinians/

Israeli lobby response

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/comparing-nazis-to-israelis-is-unacceptable/story-e6frgd0x-1226534879253
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 09, 2013, 01:49:32 PM
I have never heard of "The Anti-Defamation Commission" but I know what it reminds me of.

Interesting that the Chair of that Commission used Nazi imagery and references.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on January 09, 2013, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 09, 2013, 05:23:09 AM
Fox News and the Israel National News? Wow. Must be objective then.

Riddle me this muppet, are CNN & CNBC for instance objective or is it just the right wing media outlets that have no objectivity?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 09, 2013, 05:29:51 PM
Quote from: stew on January 09, 2013, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 09, 2013, 05:23:09 AM
Fox News and the Israel National News? Wow. Must be objective then.

Riddle me this muppet, are CNN & CNBC for instance objective or is it just the right wing media outlets that have no objectivity?
Stew

The US runs 2 parallel realities and it is very hard to tell from a European perspective if the non Fox one is truly real.
But Fox is f**king nuts.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=w85t5wxxamk
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 09, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
Every media outlet on this planet will give it's own slant to every story it prints. The trick is to take bits out of each and make up your own mind from the facts, not their own agenda.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on January 09, 2013, 06:04:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 09, 2013, 05:29:51 PM
Quote from: stew on January 09, 2013, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 09, 2013, 05:23:09 AM
Fox News and the Israel National News? Wow. Must be objective then.

Riddle me this muppet, are CNN & CNBC for instance objective or is it just the right wing media outlets that have no objectivity?
Stew

The US runs 2 parallel realities and it is very hard to tell from a European perspective if the non Fox one is truly real.
But Fox is f**king nuts.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=w85t5wxxamk


Ah I get you now, a like minded man like that alleged comic, perfectly reflects stupid conservative Americans.

Give me a break ffs.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 09, 2013, 06:13:34 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 09, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
Every media outlet on this planet will give it's own slant to every story it prints. The trick is to take bits out of each and make up your own mind from the facts, not their own agenda.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_oOJMYL8TW6E/TKIRPNQ4_EI/AAAAAAAAIBY/TBU61IgZA64/s1600/Laughing_Chimp.gif)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 09, 2013, 06:15:25 PM
Quote from: stew on January 09, 2013, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 09, 2013, 05:23:09 AM
Fox News and the Israel National News? Wow. Must be objective then.

Riddle me this muppet, are CNN & CNBC for instance objective or is it just the right wing media outlets that have no objectivity?

From what I have seen there is very little objectivity on the Palestine/Israel conflict in the US media as a whole. I haven't been in the States for 5 years so I may be out of date with that.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Puckoon on January 09, 2013, 07:31:50 PM
Quote from: stew on January 09, 2013, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 09, 2013, 05:23:09 AM
Fox News and the Israel National News? Wow. Must be objective then.

Riddle me this muppet, are CNN & CNBC for instance objective or is it just the right wing media outlets that have no objectivity?

Stew, lets be honest here. Fox news are head and shoulders (and then some) above ANY other media outlet in the USA regarding their lack of objectivity.

I watch very closely because O'Reilly has to busting his arse not to erupt in laughter when he signs off with "And remember, the spin stops here". I'll catch the fecker someday.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 09, 2013, 08:39:45 PM
Fox is Murdoch and Murdoch is a sc**bag.

The latest Private Eye has the details on the Leveson Inquiry fallout at News International, also Murdoch owned.

NI are paying GBP 125 million to law firm Linklaters to work their way through emails and NI paperwork and anything they think may be of interest to the police. This is handed over to the Management and Standards Committee which then decides what info is handed to the police. The police describe it as "voluntary disclosure".

So journalists and lawyers at the bottom of the NI food chain are shafted but Murdoch and his cronies are protected. 

Rotten.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 09, 2013, 10:35:00 PM


http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/israel-s-precious-political-capital-is-being-squandered-in-hysterical-hagel-war.premium-1.492981#

West of Eden

by Chemi Shalev


Israel's precious political capital is being squandered in hysterical Hagel war

The continued omnipresence of Israel in America's political battles will harm its long-term interests, as the core of its bipartisan support gradually falls apart.

By Chemi Shalev | Jan.09, 2013 | 10:29 PM














Over the course of 15 months, Israel has turned into an omnipresent superpower in the American political psyche. From the first Republican foreign policy debate in November 2011, throughout the presidential election campaign and now, with the impending clash over former senator Chuck Hagel's confirmation hearings, tiny Israel has cast a giant shadow over the discourse and the debate on America's foreign and domestic policies.

But whether this has been good or bad for Israel itself - as opposed to the legions of politicians, pundits and other professional who make their fame or fortune or both by continuously picking fights on Israel's behalf - is a completely different matter. Political prestige, influence and sway are not an infinite resource that can be used and reused endlessly, after all, but rather a precious commodity that, in Israel's case, is being wasted on far too many campaigns that, in the final analysis, are changing very little.

Because the fact of the matter is that the many millions of dollars and scores of divisive slogans and speeches that were meant to discredit President Obama's attitude and policies towards Israel have, in their political and electoral bottom lines, amounted to almost naught. By the same token and by all appearances, the all-out, go-for-the-jugular campaign that is being mounted against the appointment of Hagel as Secretary of Defense is also likely to end in failure, at last as things stand now.

In the process, however, the American public has been exposed to dismayingly disproportionate discussion of Israel's trials and tribulations, above and beyond all the countries of the world, more or less, put together. And while the traditionally solid bipartisan support for Israel remains strong on its surface, many on the left and in the Democratic Party are increasingly viewing it as a Republican tool, which, in the natural progression of things, needs to be resisted and countered.

And thus there is room for concern that when push comes to shove, and Israel reaches a crossroads that is truly crucial or even existential, in which it needs to try and muster all the support that it can in order to exert maximal influence on American policies, it will find that too many bridges have been burned and too many supporters have been alienated in its name; that when the critical moment to use it finally arrived, Israel will discover that the force is no longer with it.


Laura Rozen wrote in the Forward about the possible fallout from a Hagel confirmation for what she described as "Israel hawks", but the same and perhaps even greater damage might be incurred if he is denied. A stinging defeat for the President would send his die-hard American opponents into ecstatic fits of joy but would Israel gain or benefit? Would the president, whose influence on Israel's fate during the next four years is far greater than all of Congress put together, be more or less favorably disposed towards Israel in the wake of a humiliating rejection of his candidate inflicted by its alleged supporters – or even by a victory earned at the expense of a bitter partisan battle? 

Moreover, is the kind of black-or-white, take-it-or-leave-it, with-us-or-against-us dichotomy that seems to be infecting every corner of American political discourse, on both the left and the right, really good for Israel or does it just serve the narrow interest of the zealots who promote it?

After all, the right wing's ferocious and usually absurd campaign against Hagel, in which hyperbole is often just an understatement, has created a no less outlandish counter-reaction on the left, in which Hagel is suddenly being casted as the answer to generations of Jewish dreams. Hagel is far from being a Haman or even Mel Gibson, as some of his determined detractors ludicrously portray him, but he is far from being a Nebraskan Judah Maccabee or Theodor Herzl, as some of his overenthusiastic supporters are now trying to propose. 

The spreading exclusionism on both sides of the fence is bound to ultimately repel well-meaning Israel supporters from both camps: if Hagel is a "litmus test" which will define true Israel lovers and expose closet anti-Semites, as one columnist suggested, than most American senators and a majority of its public opinion are soon to be excommunicated from the camp of true believers. But by the same token, if criticism of Hagel or even opposition to his appointment is now being portrayed as proof of one's retrogressive, primitive, Israel-Firsting war-mongering, as another writer on the left suggested, then far too many American Jews and, I venture to say, a majority of Israelis will soon find themselves banished to the land of the unenlightened. 

Hagel's appointment is an internal American affair, of course, but his positions are of interest and concern to everyone, including Israelis. And while charges of him being anti-Semitic are patently outlandish – his statement that "the Jewish lobby intimidates people" is a sentiment shared, though often better phrased, by most people I've ever spoken to on this topic - his attitudes towards the use of military force and unilateral sanctions Iran are a source of legitimate worry for most Israelis, at least, if not for elements of the American left that still support them. And this holds true, even if it is Obama who ultimately calls the shots.

But in the heated political atmosphere in Washington these days, the chances for a cool and constructive examination of Hagel's positions are rapidly dwindling. Unless he blunders, his appointment is likely to be confirmed by virtue of the majority that the Democrats hold in the Senate. 

The sides will then regroup for their next bitter political battle, while rational Israelis will be left on the sidelines to worry about the price they will ultimately pay for all the holy wars being fought in their name, in Jerusalem as well as on Capitol Hill.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 10, 2013, 05:08:11 PM
Since 1999, over 300,000 young Jews from around the world have embarked on the free, 10-day tour of Israel known as Taglit-Birthright. It's considered the most effective means of connecting the next generation of the Jewish Diaspora to the state of Israel. The government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently pledged $100 million to the program. Netanyahu is also a regular speaker at Birthright mega-events, like the one The Real News' Lia Tarachansky attended this week with journalist and Author Max Blumenthal

Well worth watching for an insight into the minds of those who become illegal settlers

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9483
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2013, 05:29:27 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2013, 05:08:11 PM
Since 1999, over 300,000 young Jews from around the world have embarked on the free, 10-day tour of Israel known as Taglit-Birthright. It's considered the most effective means of connecting the next generation of the Jewish Diaspora to the state of Israel. The government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently pledged $100 million to the program. Netanyahu is also a regular speaker at Birthright mega-events, like the one The Real News' Lia Tarachansky attended this week with journalist and Author Max Blumenthal

Well worth watching for an insight into the minds of those who become illegal settlers

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9483
How many of them actually settle in Israel afterwards? 


http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/anglo-file/aliyah-numbers-up-from-n-america-1.386171
During the Jewish year of 5771, which ends next Wednesday, about 21,300 Jews moved to Israel, up from 17,883 new immigrants in 5770.

That is far less than the numbers of Israelis emigrating.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 10, 2013, 05:51:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2013, 05:29:27 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 10, 2013, 05:08:11 PM
Since 1999, over 300,000 young Jews from around the world have embarked on the free, 10-day tour of Israel known as Taglit-Birthright. It's considered the most effective means of connecting the next generation of the Jewish Diaspora to the state of Israel. The government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently pledged $100 million to the program. Netanyahu is also a regular speaker at Birthright mega-events, like the one The Real News' Lia Tarachansky attended this week with journalist and Author Max Blumenthal

Well worth watching for an insight into the minds of those who become illegal settlers

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9483
How many of them actually settle in Israel afterwards? 


http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/anglo-file/aliyah-numbers-up-from-n-america-1.386171
During the Jewish year of 5771, which ends next Wednesday, about 21,300 Jews moved to Israel, up from 17,883 new immigrants in 5770.

That is far less than the numbers of Israelis emigrating.

They must be breeding like rabbits then.  ;)

Despite Seafoid's attempt at misinformation, the jewish population in Israel is growing steadily, year on year on year.  ;D


Israel Now Has 6 Million Jews

The number of Israeli Jews passed the emotional 6 million mark in November, and the total population will pass 8 million in February.


AAFont Size
By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 12/31/2012, 11:35 AM




Aliyah Revolution banner

Nefesh B'Nefesh





The number of Israeli Jews passed the emotional 6 million mark in November, and the total population will pass 8 million in February, according to the Central Bureau of Statistics.


The Jewish population represents 75.4 percent of the total, of which Arabs are 20.6 percent, representing a continuing trend of a higher Jewish birth rate and a lower Arab birth rate.

The other four percent of the Israeli population includes Christians, other faiths and 319,000 people who call themselves Jewish but are not recognized as such according to Jewish law. Almost all of them are from the former Soviet bloc.

As January 1 approached, the total population was 7,981,000, 1.8 per cent higher than the previous year.

The figures do not temporary residents and foreign workers.

New immigrants account for a smaller increase in the number of Jews, with only 16,500 having come on "aliyah" in 2012.

North American aliyah was about 4,000, including those who already were in Israel and took out Israeli citizenship, Nefesh B'Nefesh spokeswoman Yael Katsman told Arutz Sheva Monday. She said the numbers are rising, and that the expectation is that the trend will continue in 2013.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163726 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163726)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2013, 07:39:04 PM
Israel has more than 5 million Palestinians living under the Zionist heel.
And the Yanks are slowly turning away from the Hasbara bullshit.

382


http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/israel-s-precious-political-capital-is-being-squandered-in-hysterical-hagel-war.premium-1.492981

These activies of Israel have angered most Americans By ron
10 Jan 2013
06:38AM

It is entirely inappropriate and unprecedented for Israel to push itself into US politics and US foreign policy in this way. Israelis and their US supporters do not seem to detect how unwelcome this behavior has become. Nowadays, many people in the US press are pointing this out in very direct ways. Previously, the US media did not criticize Israel because of aggressive intimidation and labeling as anti-semitic. This is now changing completely and many prominent Jews are pointing out how this pushy behavior is hurting Israel in the long-term.

Shimon Peres said that a Jew and racism don't go together.
But that was horseshit for the goys.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 10, 2013, 09:28:23 PM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2125423/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2125423/)

"5 Broken cameras" is the 1st Palestinian documentary to be nominated for an Oscar. The title refers to the number of cameras broken by the Israeli army belonging to the filmmaker.

From the link above: When his fourth son, Gibreel, is born, Emad, a Palestinian villager, gets his first camera. In his village, Bil'in, a separation barrier is being built and the villagers start to resist this decision. For more than five years, Emad films the struggle, which is lead by two of his best friends, alongside filming how Gibreel grows. Very soon it affects his family and his own life. Daily arrests and night raids scare his family; his friends, brothers and him as well are either shot or arrested. One Camera after another is shot at or smashed, each camera tells a part of his story.

The film has an Israeli co-director, Guy Davidi.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Does anyone know why are there 49 pages on this thread yet practically nothing is said about Tibet, Chechnya, the discrimination against black Africans in North Africa, the PKK/Turkey conflict,the ongoing conflict in Syria,  the continuing persecution of media and undermining of democracy in Russia, the discrimination against native peoples in Burma..etc, etc...the list is endless.

Why ? what is it about this particular conflict, one of many, that exercises certain people to such a frenzy ?

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:26:13 PM
As we speak Seafoid and give her dixie are frantically searching the internet for an opinion piece to answer this question. We live in hope that they will actually give their own opinion  ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 10, 2013, 10:30:55 PM
The only time Syria is mentioned is when Seafoid blames Israel for them being bombed by Assad.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2013, 10:31:43 PM
Why was John Mitchell moaning about the famine in Kerry while the English were running famines in Bengal?

Because everyone deserves the same rights.  In the 1840s it was Irish people who were fucked over. Today it is Palestinians. 

The "No Blank Check Rally," sponsored by Jewish Voice for Peace, Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee and Washington Interfaith Alliance for Middle East Peace is a chance, as the promoters say, to


                                         Tell President Obama:

                                   Israel should not be above the law.

Condition US aid to Israel on compliance with US & international law.
 

No Blank Check for Israel

Rally & Candlelight Procession to the White House

Saturday January 19, 2013


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt8smlZ41nA

Obviously JVP are antisemites.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 10, 2013, 10:38:46 PM
Are they really?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2013, 10:41:29 PM
Democracy now on "5 broken cameras"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZnZnP5TgJU

Mike Sheehy stars in "one broken record"
Delivered under a  plain cover.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2013, 10:47:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 10, 2013, 10:30:55 PM
The only time Syria is mentioned is when Seafoid blames Israel for them being bombed by Assad.
What are you doing about Syria, other than trying to use it to excuse Israel's sadism? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 10, 2013, 11:02:15 PM
I'm not the one crying on here about the "injustices" being done to the Palestinians refugees in Syria, you are.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 11:17:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2013, 10:31:43 PM
Why was John Mitchell moaning about the famine in Kerry while the English were running famines in Bengal?

Because everyone deserves the same rights.  In the 1840s it was Irish people who were fucked over. Today it is Palestinians. 

The "No Blank Check Rally," sponsored by Jewish Voice for Peace, Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee and Washington Interfaith Alliance for Middle East Peace is a chance, as the promoters say, to


                                         Tell President Obama:

                                   Israel should not be above the law.

Condition US aid to Israel on compliance with US & international law.
 

No Blank Check for Israel

Rally & Candlelight Procession to the White House

Saturday January 19, 2013


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt8smlZ41nA

Obviously JVP are antisemites.

As usual you have not answered the question. You just quote somebody else. this always gives you plausible denial.
Also, I have noticed that, when in a tight corner, you always resort to referencing the famine, referencing Northern Ireland..you even tried the Kerry angle above  ::)  whatever it takes.....always trying to manipulate and look for the emotive response to stir peoples hatred. Do you not think that people see through these tactics.....?

by the way I did notice the way you used Paidi O'Se's passing to have a go at me earlier. I let it pass as it was not the time or place but it speaks to my point about how you will use any means necessary.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 11, 2013, 12:54:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Does anyone know why are there 49 pages on this thread yet practically nothing is said about Tibet, Chechnya, the discrimination against black Africans in North Africa, the PKK/Turkey conflict,the ongoing conflict in Syria,  the continuing persecution of media and undermining of democracy in Russia, the discrimination against native peoples in Burma..etc, etc...the list is endless.

Why ? what is it about this particular conflict, one of many, that exercises certain people to such a frenzy ?

Because this is the Israel Palestine thread, start threads on those if you like. I am recently interested in Africa and would enjoy such a thread and the parallels with the Burma, Irish and Ethiopian famines, as Seafoid mentioned, are dramatic.

But I would expect people to discuss Israel and Palestine on this thread.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 02:22:49 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 11, 2013, 12:54:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Does anyone know why are there 49 pages on this thread yet practically nothing is said about Tibet, Chechnya, the discrimination against black Africans in North Africa, the PKK/Turkey conflict,the ongoing conflict in Syria,  the continuing persecution of media and undermining of democracy in Russia, the discrimination against native peoples in Burma..etc, etc...the list is endless.

Why ? what is it about this particular conflict, one of many, that exercises certain people to such a frenzy ?

Because this is the Israel Palestine thread, start threads on those if you like. I am recently interested in Africa and would enjoy such a thread and the parallels with the Burma, Irish and Ethiopian famines, as Seafoid mentioned, are dramatic.

But I would expect people to discuss Israel and Palestine on this thread.

That is not an answer Muppet and you know it. You ask me why I dont start such a thread. The answer is simple. I dont presume to understand enough about about ancient conflicts to take a side.

To borrow a cheap tactic from Seafoid, surely you must understand that, given our history with the british media,  villifying one side in such a conflict is patently wrong.

I ask again, what is the unique characteristic about this particular conflict that leads to 49 pages of debate yet nothing on Tibet etc ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 03:06:32 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 02:22:49 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 11, 2013, 12:54:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Does anyone know why are there 49 pages on this thread yet practically nothing is said about Tibet, Chechnya, the discrimination against black Africans in North Africa, the PKK/Turkey conflict,the ongoing conflict in Syria,  the continuing persecution of media and undermining of democracy in Russia, the discrimination against native peoples in Burma..etc, etc...the list is endless.

Why ? what is it about this particular conflict, one of many, that exercises certain people to such a frenzy ?

Because this is the Israel Palestine thread, start threads on those if you like. I am recently interested in Africa and would enjoy such a thread and the parallels with the Burma, Irish and Ethiopian famines, as Seafoid mentioned, are dramatic.

But I would expect people to discuss Israel and Palestine on this thread.

That is not an answer Muppet and you know it. You ask me why I dont start such a thread. The answer is simple. I dont presume to understand enough about about ancient conflicts to take a side.

To borrow a cheap tactic from Seafoid, surely you must understand that, given our history with the british media,  villifying one side in such a conflict is patently wrong.

I ask again, what is the unique characteristic about this particular conflict that leads to 49 pages of debate yet nothing on Tibet etc ?

Apologies, its not really a debate. Its a few people posting endless articles reflecting their skewed ideological viewpoint and never actually offering their own solution/opinion  (lest it be actually subject to any scrutiny).



Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on January 11, 2013, 04:51:13 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 02:22:49 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 11, 2013, 12:54:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Does anyone know why are there 49 pages on this thread yet practically nothing is said about Tibet, Chechnya, the discrimination against black Africans in North Africa, the PKK/Turkey conflict,the ongoing conflict in Syria,  the continuing persecution of media and undermining of democracy in Russia, the discrimination against native peoples in Burma..etc, etc...the list is endless.

Why ? what is it about this particular conflict, one of many, that exercises certain people to such a frenzy ?

Because this is the Israel Palestine thread, start threads on those if you like. I am recently interested in Africa and would enjoy such a thread and the parallels with the Burma, Irish and Ethiopian famines, as Seafoid mentioned, are dramatic.

But I would expect people to discuss Israel and Palestine on this thread.

That is not an answer Muppet and you know it. You ask me why I dont start such a thread. The answer is simple. I dont presume to understand enough about about ancient conflicts to take a side.

To borrow a cheap tactic from Seafoid, surely you must understand that, given our history with the british media,  villifying one side in such a conflict is patently wrong.

I ask again, what is the unique characteristic about this particular conflict that leads to 49 pages of debate yet nothing on Tibet etc ?

I think a lot of Irish people are interested because there are some parallels to our own conflict. Also maybe because it's quite close to Europe (or maybe in Europe if you ask them), plays a big part in American politics and gets more media coverage than the other conflicts you mentioned

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 11, 2013, 09:09:51 AM

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 02:22:49 AM

That is not an answer Muppet and you know it.
Yawn. You think this is an answer?

QuoteYou ask me why I dont start such a thread. The answer is simple. I dont presume to understand enough about about ancient conflicts to take a side.
These conflicts are not ancient and why would you have to take a side?
Quote

Quote
To borrow a cheap tactic from Seafoid, surely you must understand that, given our history with the british media,  villifying one side in such a conflict is patently wrong.

I ask again, what is the unique characteristic about this particular conflict that leads to 49 pages of debate yet nothing on Tibet etc ?

Apologies  its not really a debate. Its a few people posting endless articles reflecting their skewed ideological viewpoint and never actually offering their own solution/opinion  (lest it be actually subject to any scrutiny).

This is precisely what you have done.

In 49 pages you haven't seen one single valid point or opinion? On the previous post you are now demanding a discussion on Tibet but then hide behind 'I don't presume to know about ancient conflicts' when asked why you don't start a thread yourself. Burma, Ireland and most especially Ethiopia and the rest of Africa are not ancient conflicts.


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2013, 09:29:30 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 11:17:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2013, 10:31:43 PM
Why was John Mitchell moaning about the famine in Kerry while the English were running famines in Bengal?

Because everyone deserves the same rights.  In the 1840s it was Irish people who were fucked over. Today it is Palestinians. 

The "No Blank Check Rally," sponsored by Jewish Voice for Peace, Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee and Washington Interfaith Alliance for Middle East Peace is a chance, as the promoters say, to


                                         Tell President Obama:

                                   Israel should not be above the law.

Condition US aid to Israel on compliance with US & international law.
 

No Blank Check for Israel

Rally & Candlelight Procession to the White House

Saturday January 19, 2013


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt8smlZ41nA

Obviously JVP are antisemites.

As usual you have not answered the question. You just quote somebody else. this always gives you plausible denial.
Also, I have noticed that, when in a tight corner, you always resort to referencing the famine, referencing Northern Ireland..you even tried the Kerry angle above  ::)  whatever it takes.....always trying to manipulate and look for the emotive response to stir peoples hatred. Do you not think that people see through these tactics.....?

by the way I did notice the way you used Paidi O'Se's passing to have a go at me earlier. I let it pass as it was not the time or place but it speaks to my point about how you will use any means necessary.

I have never ever seen you advance an argument on theIP conflict other than to claim than anyone who criticises Israel is a Nazi.
So what is your view on how the conflict should  be resolved? Do you think the Palestinians deserve a state or is it all Jewish land? 
Do you think Jewish settlements in the West Bank are legal?

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 01:48:18 PM
Quote from: tyssam5 on January 11, 2013, 04:51:13 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 02:22:49 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 11, 2013, 12:54:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Does anyone know why are there 49 pages on this thread yet practically nothing is said about Tibet, Chechnya, the discrimination against black Africans in North Africa, the PKK/Turkey conflict,the ongoing conflict in Syria,  the continuing persecution of media and undermining of democracy in Russia, the discrimination against native peoples in Burma..etc, etc...the list is endless.

Why ? what is it about this particular conflict, one of many, that exercises certain people to such a frenzy ?

Because this is the Israel Palestine thread, start threads on those if you like. I am recently interested in Africa and would enjoy such a thread and the parallels with the Burma, Irish and Ethiopian famines, as Seafoid mentioned, are dramatic.

But I would expect people to discuss Israel and Palestine on this thread.

That is not an answer Muppet and you know it. You ask me why I dont start such a thread. The answer is simple. I dont presume to understand enough about about ancient conflicts to take a side.

To borrow a cheap tactic from Seafoid, surely you must understand that, given our history with the british media,  villifying one side in such a conflict is patently wrong.

I ask again, what is the unique characteristic about this particular conflict that leads to 49 pages of debate yet nothing on Tibet etc ?

I think a lot of Irish people are interested because there are some parallels to our own conflict. Also maybe because it's quite close to Europe (or maybe in Europe if you ask them), plays a big part in American politics and gets more media coverage than the other conflicts you mentioned

That is a fair point (our own conflict) but it does not explain the massive imbalance ? Surely there are parallels to Irelands conflict in many of these other conflicts. As for its proximity its about the same as the Turkey/Kurdish conflict so that doesnt explain it either. As for the media coverage, yes there is definitely more coverage but there is plenty of coverage of other conflicts. For example there has been zero comment to the asassination the three Kurdish activists in France. Why is that ? I would have thought that the possible involvement of a government (Turkey) in the assination of individuals on foreign soil would definitely strike a chord.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2013, 02:38:11 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 01:48:18 PM
Quote from: tyssam5 on January 11, 2013, 04:51:13 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 02:22:49 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 11, 2013, 12:54:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Does anyone know why are there 49 pages on this thread yet practically nothing is said about Tibet, Chechnya, the discrimination against black Africans in North Africa, the PKK/Turkey conflict,the ongoing conflict in Syria,  the continuing persecution of media and undermining of democracy in Russia, the discrimination against native peoples in Burma..etc, etc...the list is endless.

Why ? what is it about this particular conflict, one of many, that exercises certain people to such a frenzy ?

Because this is the Israel Palestine thread, start threads on those if you like. I am recently interested in Africa and would enjoy such a thread and the parallels with the Burma, Irish and Ethiopian famines, as Seafoid mentioned, are dramatic.

But I would expect people to discuss Israel and Palestine on this thread.

That is not an answer Muppet and you know it. You ask me why I dont start such a thread. The answer is simple. I dont presume to understand enough about about ancient conflicts to take a side.

To borrow a cheap tactic from Seafoid, surely you must understand that, given our history with the british media,  villifying one side in such a conflict is patently wrong.

I ask again, what is the unique characteristic about this particular conflict that leads to 49 pages of debate yet nothing on Tibet etc ?

I think a lot of Irish people are interested because there are some parallels to our own conflict. Also maybe because it's quite close to Europe (or maybe in Europe if you ask them), plays a big part in American politics and gets more media coverage than the other conflicts you mentioned

That is a fair point (our own conflict) but it does not explain the massive imbalance ? Surely there are parallels to Irelands conflict in many of these other conflicts. As for its proximity its about the same as the Turkey/Kurdish conflict so that doesnt explain it either. As for the media coverage, yes there is definitely more coverage but there is plenty of coverage of other conflicts. For example there has been zero comment to the asassination the three Kurdish activists in France. Why is that ? I would have thought that the possible involvement of a government (Turkey) in the assination of individuals on foreign soil would definitely strike a chord.

Go ahead and start a discussion on the Kurds. What turkey does to them and the Alevis is a disgrace. But stick to the topic on this thread. Just because there is injustice elsewhere it doesn't mean that Israel is entitled to shaft the Palestinians.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 11, 2013, 05:13:09 PM
Yet another violation of the ceasefire by Israel today as they murdered a 22 year old Palestinian.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=555269&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

   

GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Israeli forces fired at the northern Gaza Strip on Friday, killing one man and injuring another, medics said.

Gaza health ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qidra told Ma'an that Anwar Muhammad al-Mamlouk, 22, was killed by Israeli fire east of Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza.

Another man was seriously wounded and taken to the Kamal Udwan hospital by paramedics.

The incident happened near a cemetery by the refugee camp, al-Qidra said.

An Israeli military spokeswoman did not immediately return a call seeking comment.

Abdullah al-Zaneen, 32, was shot and wounded by Israeli forces east of Beit Hanoun on Jan. 5. In December, Israeli forces shot and injured five Palestinians in the northern Gaza Strip, al-Qidra said.

Israeli troops have shot at Gazans near the border at least 10 times since the end of an eight-day offensive in November. Some 30 people have been wounded in the incidents, Gaza officials say.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on January 11, 2013, 07:07:27 PM
Thanks for the info GHD, I would have not have heard about that only for you.

This speaks again to Mike's question above. When people believe regular media is not reporting the facts in proportion ( would a 'rocket' attack from Gaza with no fatalities have got more publicity worldwide than this man getting shot dead), I believe it definitely would, then people will be more attracted to discussing a topic on the board.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 11, 2013, 07:13:05 PM
I assume he was nowhere near the border fence.
I assume he wasn't warned to stop damaging the fence.
I assume there were no warning shots fired.
I assume the border guards didn't fire at their legs, after the warning shots they didn't fire.
I assume he wasn't part of a violent crowd.

I assume he was only out getting a pint of milk for his poor wee granny.

Anyone stupid enough to damage the border fence, whilst armed guards are there to protect it (and protect it, they will), is running an extremely high risk of getting lead poisoning. A very valuable life lesson has just been learned by his mates. DON'T GO NEAR THE F**KIN FENCE.


**EDIT** And by the way, it's not a breach of the ceasefire, as Hamas are supposed to stop Gazans from getting near the fence. It's their responsibility.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 11, 2013, 07:30:45 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 11, 2013, 07:13:05 PM
I assume he was nowhere near the border fence.
I assume he wasn't warned to stop damaging the fence.
I assume there were no warning shots fired.
I assume the border guards didn't fire at their legs, after the warning shots they didn't fire.
I assume he wasn't part of a violent crowd.

I assume he was only out getting a pint of milk for his poor wee granny.

Anyone stupid enough to damage the border fence, whilst armed guards are there to protect it (and protect it, they will), is running an extremely high risk of getting lead poisoning. A very valuable life lesson has just been learned by his mates. DON'T GO NEAR THE F**KIN FENCE.


**EDIT** And by the way, it's not a breach of the ceasefire, as Hamas are supposed to stop Gazans from getting near the fence. It's their responsibility.

One side dispute a fence or something, the other side shoot 30 of them, killing one.

'I assume he wasn't part of a violent crowd"

Nope, he was on the other side.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 11, 2013, 07:52:10 PM
Plenty of people dispute that banks have loads of their cash in them, but are able to resist the urge to break in.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 11, 2013, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 11, 2013, 07:52:10 PM
Plenty of people dispute that banks have loads of their cash in them, but are able to resist the urge to break in.

If the banks stole their cash and then shot them for coming near, you might have a valid simile.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2013, 10:03:28 PM
Why take sides sheehy asked. It's the same as the north per him. I wonder does he remember aidan mcanespie. There is an Aidan McAnespie every week in Gaza. I bet de beaver wouldn't dare post hasbara about Aidan McAnespie . If you go too close to British army towers running a shoot to kill policy it's fine to be killed is it?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 13, 2013, 02:22:50 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 11, 2013, 10:03:28 PM
Why take sides sheehy asked. It's the same as the north per him. I wonder does he remember aidan mcanespie. There is an Aidan McAnespie every week in Gaza. I bet de beaver wouldn't dare post hasbara about Aidan McAnespie . If you go too close to British army towers running a shoot to kill policy it's fine to be killed is it?

There are other parallels with the Irish/British conflict.Like way Irish people were demonized by propagandists in the British media with no attempt at balanced journalism. Their hatred of Irish people is as obvious as your hatred of jews.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2013, 10:28:25 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 13, 2013, 02:22:50 AM
Their hatred of Irish people is as obvious as your hatred of jews.

I think we all recognise your in depth knowledge on hatred.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 13, 2013, 11:37:55 AM
Israel forcibly evacuates 'tent city'

Israel forces have forcefully evicted Palestinian and other multi-national activists from a hilltop protest camp they set up in a West Bank area slated for Jewish settlement.

Several activists were detained during Sunday morning eviction, including Mustafa Barghouthi, Secretary General of the Palestinian National Initiative, Al Jazeera's correspondent, reporting from Jerusalem, said.

Al Jazeera's Jane Ferguson, reporting from Jerusalem, said the activists who were detained were driven to Qalandiya checkpoint and then released.

"We also heard from medical sources that four people were admitted to hospital in Ramallah with injuries, but none serious."

"The media has no more access to the site, so we are not sure if the Israeli police are in the process of dismantling the tents."

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's office ordered the move after asking the Supreme Court to lift a stay of evacuation.

Palestinian activists erected tents in the area known as E-1 on Friday, saying they wanted to "establish facts on the ground" to stop Israeli construction in the West Bank.


Paleatinian politician Mustafa Barghouthi speaks to Al Jazeera

The activists were borrowing a phrase and a tactic, usually associated with Jewish settlers, who believe establishing communities means the territory will remain Israeli.

Activists said they wanted to establish a village in the site, which they are calling Bab Al Shams.

Netanyahu's office said on Saturday night that the state was petitioning the Supreme Court to rescind an earlier injunction blocking the evacuation. In the meantime, he ordered the area declared a closed military zone and shut off access.

The Supreme Court ruled on Friday that the Palestinian outpost could remain for six days while the issue of its removal was being discussed.

Israel announced it was moving forward with the E-1 settlement after the UN recognised a de facto state of Palestine in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem in November.

Palestinians say E-1 would be a major blow to their statehood aspirations as it blocks East Jerusalem from its West Bank hinterland. Palestinians are demanding these areas, along with Gaza, for their future state.

The construction plans drew unusually sharp criticism from some of Israel's staunchest allies including the US who strongly oppose the E- 1 project.

Israeli officials have said actual construction on the project may be years away if it ever gets off the ground, while Israeli critics have questioned whether Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu actually intends to develop E-1, or is pandering to hard-liners ahead of Israel's January 22 election.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/01/201311312243144380.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 13, 2013, 06:05:47 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2013, 10:28:25 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 13, 2013, 02:22:50 AM
Their hatred of Irish people is as obvious as your hatred of jews.

I think we all recognise your in depth knowledge on hatred.

Thats rich coming from seafoids little mini-me. He has trained you well.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2013, 06:59:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 13, 2013, 06:05:47 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2013, 10:28:25 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 13, 2013, 02:22:50 AM
Their hatred of Irish people is as obvious as your hatred of jews.

I think we all recognise your in depth knowledge on hatred.

Thats rich coming from seafoids little mini-me. He has trained you well.

Wow! Another earth-shattering riposte. You should go into political speech writing.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2013, 09:30:41 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 13, 2013, 02:22:50 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 11, 2013, 10:03:28 PM
Why take sides sheehy asked. It's the same as the north per him. I wonder does he remember aidan mcanespie. There is an Aidan McAnespie every week in Gaza. I bet de beaver wouldn't dare post hasbara about Aidan McAnespie . If you go too close to British army towers running a shoot to kill policy it's fine to be killed is it?

There are other parallels with the Irish/British conflict.Like way Irish people were demonized by propagandists in the British media with no attempt at balanced journalism. Their hatred of Irish people is as obvious as your hatred of jews.
I work with Diaspora Jews. Lovely people.
But Zionism is for the birds.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2013, 09:36:31 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_CRISIS_OF_ZIONISM

TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) -- An apocalyptic tone has crept into Israel's hitherto muted election season, with opposition leaders and others sounding increasingly desperate warnings that a few more years of rule by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's heavily favored right wing might well destroy the Jewish state.

The idea is that by holding onto the lands Palestinians want for their state - and continuing to settle them with Jews - the Israeli right is marching blindly toward a future in which Arabs could outnumber Jews in the country and ultimately take over.

Perhaps the most strident proponent of this message is former Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who four years ago led peace talks with the Palestinians and recently founded a new party whose primary message is that the Zionist project is in danger. "Netanyahu is leading us toward the end of the Jewish state," she said in a statement Friday. "Israelis must choose between extremism and Zionism. Israel is in great danger and everyone must wake up now."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 12:42:40 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/the-shin-bet-sewer-cleaners.premium-1.493723

The gatekeepers?
By Gideon Levy | Jan.13,2013 | 4:20 AM |  3

"The Gatekeepers" isn't just another leftist protest film against the occupation. Far from it. Dror Moreh's documentary is the semi-official history of Israel's Shin Bet security service since 1967, told from the mouths of six of its former leaders. This is the service's version of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is also the story of "the old elite," which is fed up with the eternal war.

The film depicts the Shin Bet and its people as victims of a political leadership that has shirked a diplomatic decision on the future of the territories, preferring instead "the war on terror." From the perspective of the Shin Bet directors, they were, in the words of the late senior Shin Bet official Yossi Ginosar, the "sewer cleaners" who kept terror at a level we could live with.
Moreh's political stance is Rabinist: We will fight terror as though there were no diplomatic process and we will move ahead with the diplomatic process as though there were no terror. No wonder Yitzhak Rabin is given more screen time than the other prime ministers. Rabin's assassination is depicted as the historical turning point when peace was lost. In this film, settlers are lawbreakers and the heads of Likud are inciters.

The narrative of the film is convenient for the Shin Bet and ignores the clashes between the directors of the service and the service to the rule of law. The bus 300 affair (the murder of two terrorists who hijacked a bus in 1984) is recounted in detail by the head of the service at the time, Avraham Shalom. But Moreh stops the story in the middle, failing to mention that evidence was faked at the commission of inquiry and that amnesties were granted to the murderers and those who covered for them.

"The Gatekeepers" does not tell about the systematic lies of the service's investigators in the courts, as revealed by the Landau commission. Nor does it describe the High Court of Justice ruling that banned torture during investigations.
The Palestinians are depicted in the film as stereotypes: an Arab and a donkey in black and white, youths throwing stones, a screaming mob running behind an ambulance. Above all, they are as targets in clips of firing from unmanned aerial vehicles. Apparently this is how the Shin Bet people see their marks.

The service directors look like activists of the Mapai of yore – the major precursor of today's Labor Party, with their open-collared shirts, sabra-Ashkenazi accents and minor mistakes in their Hebrew. I know them from my home: This is the community from which my parents came (Shalom went to high school with my mother and a cousin of hers who was a Shin Bet operative cousin is mentioned in passing in the film).

Like many of their friends in this community, the Shin Bet directors have also mellowed and abandoned their gung-ho, activist security mindedness. This is what happened to Shalom, to Ami Ayalon, to Carmi Gillon and to Yuval Diskin. Only Avi Dichter remains in love with war and regrets the assassinations that didn't succeed.

Diskin is the tragic hero of "The Gatekeepers," the father of the assassinations that torture him in his private moments. "Shooting and crying," in the Shin Bet version. In his youth he was influenced by "If Israel Lost the War," a disturbing alternative history of the Six-Day War. At the end of the book, the victorious Arabs hang Moshe Dayan and Levi Eshkol in Malkehi Yisrael Square (one of the authors was Robert Littell, father of the author of "The Kindly Ones").
Today Diskin thinks that Yeshayahu Leibowitz was right in his angry prophecies and his railing against the occupation, which would destroy Israel from within.

Diskin mentions Robert McNamara, the American secretary of defense who led the Vietnam War until he regretted it and resigned, and his character served as an inspiration for the film. Like McNamara, who sobered up, Diskin too no longer believes the official version. His change of heart reveals the political fault line in Israel, which splits the war-loving right from the compromise-seeking left. Watching this film, one understands why Diskin butted heads with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and why the prime minister, the enemy of "the old elites," appointed as his successor Yoram Cohen, who wears a kippa. But even Netanyahu no longer believes Israelis can be mustered for wars and occupations. He now wants Israeli's defense to lean on fences, on Iron Domes, and to rely on "the gatekeepers" to continue to maintain the occupation.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 15, 2013, 02:20:20 AM
Yet again, Israel violate the ceasefire and murder a young Palestinian man while he farmed his land. This is now the 52nd recorded ceasefire violation.

Farmer Killed By Israeli Fire In Beit Lahia

Palestinian medical sources reported that a Palestinian farmer died, on Monday evening, of serious injuries he suffered at noon after Israeli soldiers opened fire at him as he worked on his land in Beit Lahia, in the northern part of the Gaza Strip.

The slain farmer has been identified as Mustafa Abu Jarad, 21. Medical sources said that Abu Jarad was shot by a live round in the head.

He was moved to Kamal Odwan hospital suffering a very serious injury, and died of his wounds on Monday evening despite all efforts to save his life.

Eyewitnesses reported that Israeli soldiers, stationed at a military tower in "Nativ Hasara" settlement across the border, fired several rounds of live ammunition at a number of Palestinian farmers hitting Abu Jarad in the head.

The army repeatedly opens fire at farmers trying to work, or even reach, their lands close to the border in the northern and eastern parts of the Gaza Strip; dozens of casualties have been reported.

Israel does not allow the Palestinians in Gaza to reach their lands near the border fence in Gaza under the pretext of "security considerations" as part of the so-called "buffer zone" Israel enforced on border areas with Gaza.

This issue is preventing hundreds of families from planting their lands near the border, farmers who managed to enter their lands are always subject to life-threatening conditions due to Israeli military fire.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 15, 2013, 10:26:03 AM
And the brutal murder of Palestinians continue today as Israeli occupation forces kill a 16 year old boy in the West Bank.

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2013/01/15/breaking-news-israel-killed-a-young-man-in-budrus-near-ramallah/

Israel killed a teenager in Budrus near Ramallah

Death of a minor others seriously wounded in clashes with Israeli army in Budrus near Ramallah. Initial live reports state the name of the martyr is the 16 year old Sameer Awad.

The 16 year old was shot multiple times: 3 times in the chest and once in the head by Israeli near his school, later succumbed to his injures in Ramallah hospital. Others are seriously injured. At this moment there are some conflicting reports about the number of bullets and the targeted bodyparts. Yet this is not even important. He died of his injuries. Below added a  video of the reanimation attempt of the boy.

With the killing of Sameer Awad, the occupation killed 5 Palestinians in the very first 15 days of this year. (Overview)

Yesterday, Israeli forces violated the truce agreement on Gaza for the 52nd time and shot an 21 year old farmer in the head. 21-year-old Mustafa Abu Jirad died as well
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2013, 11:43:35 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/diplomania/obama-netanyahu-doesn-t-understand-israel-s-best-interests-driving-it-into-international-isolation.premium-1.494088

According to Goldberg, in the weeks after the Palestinian move at the United Nations, Obama has said in private conversations that "Israel does not know what its own best interests are." Moreover, in Obama's opinion with every announcement of new construction in the settlements, Netanyahu is leading his country towards near-total international isolation.
Goldberg writes that Obama believes that "if Israel, a small state in an inhospitable region, becomes more of a pariah – one that alienates even the affections of the U.S., its last steadfast friend – it won't survive. Iran poses a short-term threat to Israel's survival; Israel's own behavior poses a long-term one."

On the Palestinian issue, Goldberg notes, Obama believes Netanyahu is "a political coward, an essentially unchallenged leader who nevertheless is unwilling to lead or spend political capital to advance the cause of compromise."

Though Obama's nominee for secretary of state, John Kerry, wants to restart the peace process, Obama is less enthusiastic. According to Goldberg, Obama believes Netanyahu is so thoroughly a captive of the settler lobby and so uninterested in carrying out conciliatory gestures towards the Palestinians that any diplomatic move on the part of the U.S. president at this time would be unwise.

According to Goldberg, despite his frustration with Netanyahu, Obama does not intend to cut off military aid to Israel or to stop trying to frustrate Iran's nuclear ambitions. However, with respect to diplomatic aid from the United States – at the UN or in the face of European initiatives – Israel is liable to feel a significant change in the near future. At the next vote in the UN, writes Goldberg, Israel could well find itself even more isolated.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 21, 2013, 10:38:21 AM
A silent Palestinian voice amid the din of the Israeli election

Gideon Levy

Samir Awad won't be voting in Tuesday's election, not only due to his age (16 ) or his Palestinian nationality. Samir Awad won't be voting on Tuesday because he was shot dead from close range last week by Israel Defense Forces soldiers: one bullet in his head, one in his back and one in his thigh. The soldiers who shot him will vote on Tuesday, because democracy is like that.

All of the neighbors from the hills opposite Awad's home will also vote, despite living beyond the sovereign borders of their country. Most of them will vote for those who wish to banish Samir's family, or continue to make their life hard. His bereaved father, Ahmed, cannot vote in this election despite living next to Israeli citizens, and working for years in Israel, building its houses and renovating its villas.

This is the elephant in the room. The monster at the door, who we try to ignore by saying, "If we won't look at it, it won't exist." This is the worst deception of this election, the sickest lie of Israeli Democracy, promoted by all voters and candidates.

In a true democracy, Samir's death would have become a campaign issue. Four innocent Palestinians were killed in the week leading up to the election. Nobody really cared, and one doubts if most Israelis were even aware of the deaths. Awad who? A singer or a soccer player?

It's very easy to imagine the mood if, in the week leading up to the election, four Israelis were to be killed in a similar fashion: their deaths would rock the political establishment. But the Palestinian deaths go by like dust, barely worth a mention. Even their very presence in the backyard of the only democracy in the Middle East is as light as the dust.

No one bothers to inquire any more how the Awad family is prevented from participating in an election that will deeply affect their lives, while their neighbors - in the settlements constructed on their lands - enjoy rights that they can only dream of. Or how their neighbors naturally participate in this election, the ones that preceded it and the ones yet to come. How on earth can Israel be considered a democracy? How can it not be called an apartheid state? Why is nobody even discussing the issue?

Samir was murdered in cold blood. There's no other way to describe his death. A high school student who wasn't endangering anyone. The soldiers who shot him in flight will never be brought to justice. I saw their faces last week in a video clip, filmed several minutes after they killed Samir (who was trying to climb the separation barrier that suffocates his village ). They were a group of tough Israelis in uniform. Soon they will complete their service and begin civilian life, taking pride in their military service. After all, they are considered to be those with 'values,' those who 'carry the weight of the burden' - an issue that actually is present in the debate surrounding the election.

One can suppose that none of them suffer from sleepless nights, haunted by the death of the boy and the sorrow of his family. Israelis in general lose no sleep due to horrendous actions carried out on their behalf. And why should they? There are those who see to it that they shouldn't be worried. Israel Radio reported that "the IDF prevented an effort to infiltrate Israel."

Samir was two or three years younger than his killers. He didn't have much of a future to look forward to, being one of a 17-strong family, supported by his father, who works in Israel. Even in the days of mourning Ahmed sports a "Hava & Adam, the Modi'in Ecological Farm" T-shirt. He still yearningly recalls how, in his broken Hebrew, he would lecture about Palestinian agriculture to Israeli students.

The murderers of his son can expect a different future: studies, entertainment, a career and voting rights. Only because they're Jewish, not Palestinian. Israelis can vote on Tuesday for whoever they wish. But whoever believes that the Awad family will continue to be denied their rights forever is living a lie, the most revolting lie of this election campaign. Samir is the silent voice of this election, the voice which should have shocked and rocked the campaign.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2013, 11:07:17 AM


http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/israeli-news-broadcasters-don-t-cry.premium-1.494640

So it's a lost cause. There is no solution.

You are right: there is no solution. There is no solution because, even if there were Palestinian unity, Israeli society today is not ready to pay the price of peace. We are incapable of evacuating even one settler outpost, so how will we be capable of doing more?


Did the process you underwent, from being someone who photographed the "Welcome to Gaza" sign to being a friend, almost a member of the family there, make you despair or give you hope?

There was a period when I had hope.

And it ended?

Today I have no hope. That is the general feeling of the whole Israeli public, both on the right and the left.

You are in a state of despair.
Yes. Something bad is happening here: politically, in policy and especially in the realm of social welfare. Israeli society is turning into a dangerous place. Things are not going to be good.



But try for a minute to see it from their point of view, the feeling of people in Gaza, under siege and occupation, whose relatives and friends were killed.


I can understand that − the motivation. What's harder to understand is how deep the seed was planted, and when. I understood that there is no chance.

Right. I will tell you what "no chance" means. A few days after the end of Operation Pillar of Defense, I gave a talk at a Herzliya high school. The children, who said they came from good homes, told me we have to kill all the Arabs, including the Israeli Arabs, because where do they get off thinking they will get control of the country. Their ideal is to go into the army and kill as many Arabs as possible. That's one side of the picture, Israeli youth, the new generation, living in an atmosphere of demonizing the Palestinians − which is something the Israeli media are responsible for in no small measure. The other side of the picture is the young generation in Gaza, a child of five or nine. Let's say he is not wounded, but a four-ton bomb landed next to his house. Do you know that in Operation Pillar of Defense, not one pane of glass remained intact in the whole of Gaza? It's a tactic of creating sonic booms to frighten people without hurting them. A child who has a bomb like that land next to him can't hear anything for the next three days. What does he think about the Jews afterward? And where will we end up, if this is how Jewish youngsters think about Arabs?

Nowhere good.

We are on a nothing-to-lose track. Which is why I say there is no future. When I told the high school class that we have to look at them as human beings, one boy jumped up and said, "Who do you vote for? You're extreme left, no?" I replied, "It would surprise you to know who I vote for." But that's not the point. The point is that we in Israel have reached a situation in which if someone says we have to talk peace, he's considered extreme left.  
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on January 21, 2013, 08:45:56 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2013, 02:22:49 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 11, 2013, 12:54:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 10, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Does anyone know why are there 49 pages on this thread yet practically nothing is said about Tibet, Chechnya, the discrimination against black Africans in North Africa, the PKK/Turkey conflict,the ongoing conflict in Syria,  the continuing persecution of media and undermining of democracy in Russia, the discrimination against native peoples in Burma..etc, etc...the list is endless.

Why ? what is it about this particular conflict, one of many, that exercises certain people to such a frenzy ?

Because this is the Israel Palestine thread, start threads on those if you like. I am recently interested in Africa and would enjoy such a thread and the parallels with the Burma, Irish and Ethiopian famines, as Seafoid mentioned, are dramatic.

But I would expect people to discuss Israel and Palestine on this thread.

That is not an answer Muppet and you know it. You ask me why I dont start such a thread. The answer is simple. I dont presume to understand enough about about ancient conflicts to take a side.

To borrow a cheap tactic from Seafoid, surely you must understand that, given our history with the british media,  villifying one side in such a conflict is patently wrong.

I ask again, what is the unique characteristic about this particular conflict that leads to 49 pages of debate yet nothing on Tibet etc ?

Quit yer bitchin and start a thread on Tibet mike, stop fecking whinging and droning when the feckin answer is obvious to everybody but you..................... take a gander at the title of the thread, it should help bring you up to speed!
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 23, 2013, 02:39:19 PM
 Israeli forces shot and killed a Palestinian woman and injured another in the Hebron .

Witnesses told press that Israeli soldiers traveling in a civilian car opened fire at a group of people at the entrance to al-Arrub refugee camp south of Bethlehem.

Lubna Munir Hanash, 22, was shot in the head and died from her injuries, medics said.

Suad Yusuf Jaara was shot in the hand and transported to Ahli hospital in Hebron.

Witnesses also said that after the shooting Israeli soldiers prevented an ambulance from arriving at the scene for around 10 minutes.

Locals said there were no clashes in the area at the time.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 23, 2013, 03:17:59 PM
A teenager shot by Israeli forces during clashes in Bethlehem last week died on Wednesday, the boy's family said.

Salih al-Amarin, 15, from Azza refugee camp, was shot in the head Friday during clashes in Bethlehem's nearby Aida camp, leaving him critically injured, a Ma'an reporter said.

Al-Amarin was taken to the Arab Society Hospital in Beit Jala, where medics said he was in a critical condition. He has been on life support since the incident.

An Israeli military spokeswoman did not return a call seeking comment at the time.

Last Tuesday, 17-year-old Samir Ahmad Abdul-Rahim was the fourth Palestinian shot dead by Israeli forces in less than a week.

He was shot four times by Israeli soldiers in Budrus, near Ramallah.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=558701
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 04:32:18 PM
It looks like Israeli jews are more interested in food on the table than in resettling Biblical Israel
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 05:01:02 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 23, 2013, 02:39:19 PM
Israeli forces shot and killed a Palestinian woman and injured another in the Hebron .

Witnesses told press that Israeli soldiers traveling in a civilian car opened fire at a group of people at the entrance to al-Arrub refugee camp south of Bethlehem.

Lubna Munir Hanash, 22, was shot in the head and died from her injuries, medics said.

Suad Yusuf Jaara was shot in the hand and transported to Ahli hospital in Hebron.

Witnesses also said that after the shooting Israeli soldiers prevented an ambulance from arriving at the scene for around 10 minutes.

Locals said there were no clashes in the area at the time.

The soldiers were travelling in an army jeep which was attacked by petrol bombs. The soldiers fired on their attackers.

You are very economical with the truth, my propogandist friend.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 05:50:01 PM

PA Arab Woman Killed by IDF Gunfire at El Aroub?

Reports vary wildly over the fate of a rioting PA woman who hurled a firebomb at IDF soldiers. PA medics say she was killed.


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By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 1/23/2013, 4:04 PM

Reports varied wildly Wednesday afternoon over the fate of a 22-year-old Palestinian Authority woman who participated in a riot aimed at IDF soldiers in the PA Arab town of El Aroub.

The town, located in Judea south of Gush Etzion and Bethlehem along Highway 60, is a hotbed of terrorist activity. IDF soldiers are permanently stationed at the access road to the town, which is off limits to Israeli vehicles.

IDF sources said the woman hurled a firebomb (Molotov cocktail) at the soldiers, who opened fire in response to the attack. An IDF soldier was also hit with rocks during the riot. His condition is unknown. IDF sources added that the woman was being treated at the scene. Several reports said the woman was critically injured. 

No additional details have yet been made available from the IDF.

The PA's semi-official Ma'an news agency reported the incident entirely differently, claiming the woman had been shot to death in an unprovoked attack by Israeli soldiers.

"According to the sources, there were no confrontations or stone-throwing incidents in the area" at the time, Ma'an news reported in a blazing top story on its Arabic-language home page.

In Arabic, Ma'an reported that IDF soldiers fired at the woman, critically wounding her in the head. Lubna Munir Hanash died of her wounds shortly thereafter, according to the Bethlehem-based news agency.

Medics told Ma'an that the soldiers also shot two other PA Arabs, Suad Yusuf Ja'ara and Salah Abu Hashhash, wounding each in the hands. All were transported by ambulance to the Al-Ahli Hospital in nearby Hevron, according to the PA news outlet, which added that IDF officials "launched an investigation into the incident."

Israeli drivers, motorcyclists and passengers in cars and buses regularly face road terror attacks on the road that passes El Aroub, as do the soldiers who must staff the outpost at the site. Earlier this month, an IDF soldier was burned by firebombs hurled at his unit by PA Arabs in the town.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
(http://m9.i.pbase.com/o4/55/531755/1/57057389.20050730img_4390.jpg)
Get used to it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 07:51:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
(http://m9.i.pbase.com/o4/55/531755/1/57057389.20050730img_4390.jpg)
Get used to it.
that wall is a sign of how well integrated Zionism is in the region.

Reminds me of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak_des_Chevaliers

Fabulus castle but they could only hang onto it for 200 years.

The Crusaders were like the Zionists.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2013, 08:51:22 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 05:50:01 PM

Israeli drivers, motorcyclists and passengers in cars and buses regularly face road terror attacks on the road that passes El Aroub, as do the soldiers who must staff the outpost at the site. Earlier this month, an IDF soldier was burned by firebombs hurled at his unit by PA Arabs in the town.

If they were at home in their own country nobody would be attacking the land grabbing impreialist bastards.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:06:37 PM
Do you think brits should be bricked every time they drive down an Irish road, or are you being an hypocritical p***k? After all, they should be "at home in their own country. " ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: theticklemister on January 23, 2013, 09:07:07 PM
Ball de beaver, ye have joined a GAA forum to primarly to discuss GAA matters.  Ye seem to come on her for one purpose to support Israel's regime. Go and join a pro-israel capitalist board to discuss matters there or please join in GAA matters.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:08:59 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on January 23, 2013, 09:07:07 PM
Ball de beaver, ye have joined a GAA to primarly discuss GAA matters.  Ye seem to come on her for one purpose to support Israel's regime. Go and join a pro-israel capitalist board to discuss matters there or please join in GAA matters.
Got a link for any good ones?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 07:51:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
(http://m9.i.pbase.com/o4/55/531755/1/57057389.20050730img_4390.jpg)
Get used to it.
that wall is a sign of how well integrated Zionism is in the region.

Reminds me of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak_des_Chevaliers

Fabulus castle but they could only hang onto it for 200 years.

The Crusaders were like the Zionists.
That wall reminds me of the hatred Israel's neighbours (not to mention,  unfortunately,  a lot of us paddies) have towards her, and their constant need to be vigilant.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2013, 09:16:04 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:06:37 PM
Do you think brits should be bricked every time they drive down an Irish road, or are you being an hypocritical p***k? After all, they should be "at home in their own country. " ::)

You obviously didn't hear of the Good Friday Agreement between Ireland/Britain/Nationalists/Unionists which diverted our disagreements from militaristic activities to political.
Pity the Israeli Government wouldn't try doing the same.
As for going around calling people names like p****k who don't like to Israel's land grabbing/apartheid etc .... grow up a biteen and try and broaden your mind.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 09:20:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 07:51:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
(http://m9.i.pbase.com/o4/55/531755/1/57057389.20050730img_4390.jpg)
Get used to it.
that wall is a sign of how well integrated Zionism is in the region.

Reminds me of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak_des_Chevaliers

Fabulus castle but they could only hang onto it for 200 years.

The Crusaders were like the Zionists.
That wall reminds me of the hatred Israel's neighbours (not to mention,  unfortunately,  a lot of us paddies) have towards her, and their constant need to be vigilant.
the wall is nowhere near Israel 's border s. It is a land grab .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:31:20 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 09:20:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 07:51:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
(http://m9.i.pbase.com/o4/55/531755/1/57057389.20050730img_4390.jpg)
Get used to it.
that wall is a sign of how well integrated Zionism is in the region.

Reminds me of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak_des_Chevaliers

Fabulus castle but they could only hang onto it for 200 years.

The Crusaders were like the Zionists.
That wall reminds me of the hatred Israel's neighbours (not to mention,  unfortunately,  a lot of us paddies) have towards her, and their constant need to be vigilant.
the wall is nowhere near Israel 's border s. It is a land grab .
Could you please point me to where this internationally recognised, legally binding border is? All I can see is an armistice line, drawn up as a demarcation line, to be finalised only in event of a final settlement. I think you'll find that that big concrete wall will end up being the internationally recognised, legally binding border. Nice, isn't it?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 09:58:03 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:31:20 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 09:20:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 07:51:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
(http://m9.i.pbase.com/o4/55/531755/1/57057389.20050730img_4390.jpg)
Get used to it.
that wall is a sign of how well integrated Zionism is in the region.

Reminds me of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak_des_Chevaliers

Fabulus castle but they could only hang onto it for 200 years.

The Crusaders were like the Zionists.
That wall reminds me of the hatred Israel's neighbours (not to mention,  unfortunately,  a lot of us paddies) have towards her, and their constant need to be vigilant.
the wall is nowhere near Israel 's border s. It is a land grab .
Could you please point me to where this internationally recognised, legally binding border is? All I can see is an armistice line, drawn up as a demarcation line, to be finalised only in event of a final settlement. I think you'll find that that big concrete wall will end up being the internationally recognised, legally binding border. Nice, isn't it?

The border is the ceasefire line of 1948. You know that. You know why the US embassy is in Tel Aviv and why the airport in Jerusalem has been shut since 4 June 1967 and that every Jew living in occupied East Jerusalem is a settler.

Anyway it doesn't matter . Israel is not able to sell apartheid to the goys. And Israel is slowly killing itself. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 11:11:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 09:58:03 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:31:20 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 09:20:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 23, 2013, 07:51:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 23, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
(http://m9.i.pbase.com/o4/55/531755/1/57057389.20050730img_4390.jpg)
Get used to it.
that wall is a sign of how well integrated Zionism is in the region.

Reminds me of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak_des_Chevaliers

Fabulus castle but they could only hang onto it for 200 years.

The Crusaders were like the Zionists.
That wall reminds me of the hatred Israel's neighbours (not to mention,  unfortunately,  a lot of us paddies) have towards her, and their constant need to be vigilant.
the wall is nowhere near Israel 's border s. It is a land grab .
Could you please point me to where this internationally recognised, legally binding border is? All I can see is an armistice line, drawn up as a demarcation line, to be finalised only in event of a final settlement. I think you'll find that that big concrete wall will end up being the internationally recognised, legally binding border. Nice, isn't it?

The border is the ceasefire line of 1948. You know that. You know why the US embassy is in Tel Aviv and why the airport in Jerusalem has been shut since 4 June 1967 and that every Jew living in occupied East Jerusalem is a settler.

Anyway it doesn't matter . Israel is not able to sell apartheid to the goys. And Israel is slowly killing itself.
Even the most rabid hamas leaders have said that the borders will be negotiated along the 1967 lines. What do you know, that they don't? Israel has NO internationally recognised, legally binding Eastern borders with Judea and Samaria, or Gaza.
From memory, Jerusalem airprot was in use up until 1980's, but was forced to close because foreign airlines were afraid to use it as it was deemed too dangerous, due to the fact that the pals couldn't be trusted not to attack them.

You are showing your ignorance of the situation in E Jerusalem by saying that "every Jew living in occupied East Jerusalem is a settler". Jordan expelled the large jewish population from the area while it was under their control, demolished synagogues and forbid any jews from worshipping at the wailing wall. Jerusalem was always the capital of Israel, since before biblical times, and will remain their capital for as long as Israel exists. The USA  doesn't have an embassy there because the US will not recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel until there is a final settlement with the pals.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 24, 2013, 09:19:56 AM
Jerusalem airport hasn't been used by foreign airlines since Israel occupied it.
The world does not recognise Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem.
That's why the US embassy is in Tel Aviv.
 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 24, 2013, 03:09:16 PM
Palestinians desecrate Jewish holy site




Thursday, January 24, 2013 |  Israel Today Staff   


Jewish worshippers visiting the tomb of the biblical patriarch Joseph in the Palestinian-controlled town of Nablus (Shechem) on Wednesday were shocked to find the holy site severely desecrated.

The group of some 2,500 Jewish pilgrims told Israel's Maariv newspaper that Jewish holy books at the site had been burned, furniture smashed, the smell of urine was abundant, and there was evidence of an effort to burn down the structure.

"Only barbarians would do horrible things like this to such a holy site," local Jewish leader Gershon Mesika told the newspaper. "Israel can no longer allow its holy places to be freely desecrated."

Joseph's Tomb is situated on the outskirts of Nablus, a large Arab-dominated town that occupies the location of biblical Shechem. Until the outbreak of the Second Intifada in 2000, Israel maintained an IDF-protected enclave around the tomb, providing Jewish worshippers with free and uninterrupted access.

But when the tomb was besieged by Palestinian mobs and an IDF soldier was killed defending the site in late 2000, Israel agreed to cede control to the Palestinian Authority with guarantees that the holy place would be protected.

Not hours after Israel evacuated, a Palestinian mob was permitted to storm and raze Joseph's Tomb.

Jewish groups periodically visit the site under army protection, and have restored much of the damage, but the tomb is regularly desecrated by local Palestinians.

The international community has been completely silent regarding this ongoing hate crime and the lack of religious freedom afforded Jews who wish to pray at this biblical landmark.




Just another example of hatred eminating from the peace loving palestinians. While muslims worship freely in Israel, these palestinians show what they think of religious sites of other religions. Scum, pure scum.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 24, 2013, 04:40:13 PM
Witness: Israeli soldier killed woman 'in cold blood'


HEBRON (Ma'an) – "I saw an Israeli soldier on the main road firing gunshots haphazardly, so I put my left hand on Lubna's back, and grabbed her to try and run backward. A gunshot hit my hand, and I shouted as I ran.

"I thought Lubna was running behind me until I reached the security guards of Al-Arrub College who took me to a clinic in the camp before an ambulance arrived and took me to hospital."

This, says Suad Jaara, 28, is what she witnessed Wednesday afternoon when Israeli officers near al-Arrub refugee camp shot her and her friend Lubna al-Hanash. Lubna, 22, died hours later.

Speaking to Ma'an, Jaara said Thursday that she and Lubna were walking on the campus of Al-Arrub College about 100 meters from the main road when they came under fire.

"An Israeli soldier was shooting from his rifle while a white car was parked on the roadside. There was nobody in the area except Lubna and I. He was a criminal ... yes, a criminal who opened fired at us in cold blood killing Lubna and injuring me."

Jaara's testimony contradicts claims by the Israeli army's chief of central command on Channel 10 Wednesday evening that the woman was trying to hurl a Molotov cocktail at an Israeli vehicle.

An army spokeswoman also told Ma'an on Wednesday that "soldiers were attacked by Palestinians who hurled multiple firebombs at them while they were traveling near al-Arrub. Soldiers returned fire and the circumstances of the incident are currently being reviewed."

But Jaara says she and her late friend were the only ones in the area, walking around and enjoying the scenery.

"Lubna arrived two days ago to visit her sister, who is married to my brother. She had heard about Al-Arrub College and she wanted to visit it. I accompanied her to campus and she admired the area because it's in a charming natural landscape. When we decided to leave campus, a criminal fired at us and Lubna died a martyr."

Jaara is an employee at the Ministry of Prisoners Affairs. Her brother Jihad was a gunman in Fatah's al-Aqsa Brigades in the Bethlehem area. He was deported to Ireland after the Nativity Church siege in 2002.

http://maannews.net/ENG/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=558946
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 24, 2013, 05:04:17 PM
Since the 'ceasefire' after the last Israeli attack on Gaza 2 months ago...

In Gaza, at least...

4 people have been killed
77 people have been injured (16 of them children)
5 Israeli military incursions (not to mention regular fire into Gaza from Israeli border positions)
14 attacks on fishermen at sea

In the West Bank and East Jerusalem, at least...

6 people have been killed (3 of them children)
79 people have been injured (18 of them children)
531 Israeli military incursions
29 attacks by illegal (usually armed) Israeli settlers
2105 olive trees destroyed or damaged
18 houses or agricultural structures demolished
4 tented dwelling villages attacked with confiscation or damage to residential tents
1 new settlement outpost officially recognised by the Israeli state
3000+ new settlement units announced

And in all occupied Palestine together, at least...
438 Palestinians have been arrested (66 of them children, including one baby)
8 International and Israeli human rights defenders arrested

AND..... drum roll... inside Green Line Israel...

0 prosecutions of settlers or Israeli soldiers

(figures based on PCHR reports and media coverage)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 24, 2013, 05:19:11 PM
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

In a violent riot in Judea & Samaria earlier today, Palestinians hurled an improvised grenade and 5 firebombs at security forces
..................................

IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Palestinians hurled 4 firebombs at IDF post near Bethlehem. Another 2 firebombs were later hurled at an Israeli vehicle near Hebron.
............................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Multiple violent incidents in Judea & Samaria in past few hours, incl grenade, firebombs hurled at Israelis and IDF troops by Palestinians
..............................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Earlier, IDF soldiers were attacked by Palestinians who hurled multiple firebombs at them in Judea & Samaria. The soldiers returned fire.
...........................................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Israeli civilian injured due to rocks hurled by Palestinians at a bus driving through Judea & Samaria.
.............................................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Hamas commander Jabarin: we teach our kids to be suicide bombers.
http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2013/01/21/hamas-commander-zaher-jabarin-we-teach-our-kids-to-be-suicide-bombers/ (http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2013/01/21/hamas-commander-zaher-jabarin-we-teach-our-kids-to-be-suicide-bombers/)
...............................................................

This is just some of the things Israelis have to contend with, in the last 3 days. Not the last 2 months. Nice people, these palestinians.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 24, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 24, 2013, 05:19:11 PM
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

In a violent riot in Judea & Samaria earlier today, Palestinians hurled an improvised grenade and 5 firebombs at security forces
..................................

IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Palestinians hurled 4 firebombs at IDF post near Bethlehem. Another 2 firebombs were later hurled at an Israeli vehicle near Hebron.
............................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Multiple violent incidents in Judea & Samaria in past few hours, incl grenade, firebombs hurled at Israelis and IDF troops by Palestinians
..............................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Earlier, IDF soldiers were attacked by Palestinians who hurled multiple firebombs at them in Judea & Samaria. The soldiers returned fire.
...........................................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Israeli civilian injured due to rocks hurled by Palestinians at a bus driving through Judea & Samaria.
.............................................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Hamas commander Jabarin: we teach our kids to be suicide bombers.
http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2013/01/21/hamas-commander-zaher-jabarin-we-teach-our-kids-to-be-suicide-bombers/ (http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2013/01/21/hamas-commander-zaher-jabarin-we-teach-our-kids-to-be-suicide-bombers/)
...............................................................

This is just some of the things Israelis have to contend with, in the last 3 days. Not the last 2 months. Nice people, these palestinians.
Where are Judea and Samaria ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 24, 2013, 06:38:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 24, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 24, 2013, 05:19:11 PM
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

In a violent riot in Judea & Samaria earlier today, Palestinians hurled an improvised grenade and 5 firebombs at security forces
..................................

IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Palestinians hurled 4 firebombs at IDF post near Bethlehem. Another 2 firebombs were later hurled at an Israeli vehicle near Hebron.
............................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Multiple violent incidents in Judea & Samaria in past few hours, incl grenade, firebombs hurled at Israelis and IDF troops by Palestinians
..............................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Earlier, IDF soldiers were attacked by Palestinians who hurled multiple firebombs at them in Judea & Samaria. The soldiers returned fire.
...........................................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Israeli civilian injured due to rocks hurled by Palestinians at a bus driving through Judea & Samaria.
.............................................................
IDF‏@IDFSpokesperson

Hamas commander Jabarin: we teach our kids to be suicide bombers.
http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2013/01/21/hamas-commander-zaher-jabarin-we-teach-our-kids-to-be-suicide-bombers/ (http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2013/01/21/hamas-commander-zaher-jabarin-we-teach-our-kids-to-be-suicide-bombers/)
...............................................................

This is just some of the things Israelis have to contend with, in the last 3 days. Not the last 2 months. Nice people, these palestinians.
Where are Judea and Samaria ?
Read yer bible. They've been there for thousands of years.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 24, 2013, 07:22:59 PM
QuoteRead yer bible. They've been there for thousands of years

Which Bible?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 24, 2013, 07:50:50 PM
How many do you have? Try the one hidden under April's edition of Reader's Wives.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 24, 2013, 07:53:41 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 24, 2013, 07:50:50 PM
How many do you have? Try the one hidden under April's edition of Reader's Wives.
Are Judea and Samaria in Israel ? Presumably they are if the IDF is there. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 24, 2013, 07:55:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 24, 2013, 07:50:50 PM
How many do you have? Try the one hidden under April's edition of Reader's Wives.

I thought your were spoofing all right.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 24, 2013, 10:45:08 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-elections-2013/israeli-elections-opinion-analysis/what-israelis-really-want-to-be-left-in-peace.premium-1.495760#

He's not an extremist, heaven forbid, that's not who we are, nor does he stick his hand in the fire, that's not us either. He stays away from any divisive issues, just as Israelis prefer. Even when they took to the streets in that magical summer of 2011, remnants of which event were still evident on Tuesday, their protests turned out in retrospect to be encapsulated only in songs by popular singers Shlomo Artzi and Eyal Golan, without real substance. Lapid fits this mold perfectly, as characterized by protest singing in the city square, with no clear agenda and angry protest. "Let us Live in Peace" was the slogan of the General Zionist party in the 1951 elections. Let us live in this land was the slogan of many Israelis Tuesday. Let us live without Arabs and Haredi Jews, without wars and terror attacks, without the world and its preaching. Now, as it was then, this represents pure escapism. On Tuesday, Israel affirmed escapism.

On Tuesday, Lapid acquired power that he most likely did not anticipate, and that he may not know what to do with. It is difficult to know if he can put some content behind the power given to him, but perhaps there is room for hope. For someone who managed to change his conduct and mannerisms in the course of the preceding campaign, shedding some of those that characterized his columns and TV appearances, growing and maturing in the process, it is possible that he will grow into the role thrust upon him on Tuesday. Perhaps with the power will also come some meaningful utterances and a willingness to fight.

A new day is dawning upon us, a dawn of a day in which Israel only wants to be left alone with all its comforts. Only grant it Lapid and quiet, the terrible quiet at the brink of the abyss.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 24, 2013, 10:51:55 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-elections-2013/israeli-elections-opinion-analysis/the-rot-that-will-ruin-us.premium-1.495904
The rot that will ruin us

The only democracy in the Middle East has voted. The election was about nothing, and resulted in nothing.

By Gideon Levy | Jan.23, 2013 | 4:18 PM | 1

The sewage lately has been getting clogged and overflowing; they say it's because of the lady from the third floor, who throws wet wipes into the toilet. The stairwell halls, too, aren't as white as they used to be; they need to be whitewashed. The pipes have burst a couple of times lately, a plumber is urgently needed; the neighbor from the second floor says we should install an intercom, there's been a wave of break-ins in the neighborhood. His upstairs neighbor says the roof should be tarred.

The municipality demands we build a storage facility for the garbage bins, and the chinaberry tree in the yard needs trimming.

And so, the residents got together and elected a new building committee. The new neighbor with the jeep was, surprisingly, elected for second place: a good-looking guy, he always greets everyone with a friendly smile and kind manners. That's why he was elected.

The only democracy in the Middle East has voted. The election was about nothing, and resulted in nothing. The democracy's first citizen, Shimon Peres, sang its illusory praises: "This is a special state that will never give up its freedom," and also, "This is a state of builders, fighters and builders." And indeed this was an excellent election ... as far the building committee is concerned.

"The thoughtful people" of "the state that will never give up its freedom" wanted gardening, dreamed of an intercom, and chose the polite neighbor. The former chairman, the one who was always quiet between 2 P.M. and 4 P.M., was elected again as well. Living in inconceivable denial, the building's residents again ignored the bitter truth: The entire building stands on a rotten foundation. Neither the old committee chairman nor the new neighbor are likely to have enough courage to take care of that issue.

If Yair Lapid were brave enough, he could now try to build a new, surprising coalition of the center-left parties, the Arab parties, and Habayit Hayehudi or the ultra-Orthodox parties. That is possible, it's not a winter's tale. But it's doubtful Lapid has the courage to be prime minister. Perhaps he feels the position is too big for him.

Then why did he enter politics? And if not, why doesn't he try? But he'll need a lot more courage for a different goal: to get rid of the rot that's taken hold of the building's foundations, and is threatening to bring it down. In a situation like this, there's no point worrying about the gardening and the intercom. That's all Lapid has addressed so far – the "equal burden" of military duty and the "middle class."

There's no way to act for social justice in Israel while it is being trampled in the dirt beyond the Green Line. There's no way of acting for the interests of the middle class and ignoring the disgrace of the poor here and the refugees there. Democracy can no longer be fortified when it includes occupation. The justice system cannot be preserved when its foundations are rotten, there is a scandalous military justice system, and proven discrimination in the civil system as well. The economy cannot be fixed if we don't stop the waste of funds on the security budget and the no-less-scandalous waste of funds on settlements.

There is no way of improving the state's international status without freeing the Palestinian people of its hold. Israel's many ills can no longer be treated without making, first of all, the most crucial decision of all: ending the occupation. There's no time left for another government of maintenance, one that will behave like a building committee. In any case such governments are destined to vanish; the failure of Likud has proven that.

Most of the Israelis proved in this election that what they seek is nothing – maintenance, denial, and burying their heads in the sand. Benjamin Netanyahu has already proven in his years of office that he has no intention of acting differently.

Lapid has also proven so far, in his campaign, that he has no other intention.
But when there's no better choice, perhaps Lapid will be revealed as a leader: "We've come to make a change"? This is his life's chance, our life's chance. He can become prime minister, if he only so wishes; he can also become the Israeli Frederik Willem de Klerk, if he is brave enough. Am I exaggerating? It's the voice of despair.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 25, 2013, 05:51:13 AM

Irish Official Denounces 'Corrosive Rise in Racist Rhetoric'

Irish official denounces "corrosive rise in racist and anti-Semitic rhetoric by a malign minority of politicians" in EU member states.


AAFont Size
By Rachel Hirshfeld
First Publish: 1/24/2013, 10:08 PM




Holocaust memorial ceremony in Romania

Reuters



Addressing an event commemorating International Holocaust Remembrance Day in the European Parliament in Brussels, an Irish official denounced the "corrosive rise in racist and anti-Semitic rhetoric by a malign minority of politicians" in a number of EU member states.


"It is a moral imperative that we unequivocally repudiate the reprehensible rhetoric of those who seek to contaminate our political discourse and attempt to inflame dangerous prejudice," said Irish Justice Minister Alan Shatter, whose country currently chairs the rotating EU presidency.


According to The European Jewish Press (EJP), Shatter, whose responsibilities also cover defense and equality, said that it is no longer enough to merely remember the Holocaust, but stressed that "we must also remember to act. We must do more under the rule of law to end intolerance, racism and anti-Semitism."


"The Shoah did not begin in the death camps. It began with words of hate," he added. "Those words of hate became weapons of mass murder because good people closed their doors and windows shutters and remained silent."


"Let us unite in our commitment to the victims of the Shoah and the lost generations to do all we can to ensure that the Holocaust of the 20th century will never again be repeated," concluded Shatter.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164546 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164546)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2013, 09:23:12 AM
We must do more under the rule of law to end intolerance, racism and anti-Semitism."


there should be no place for racism in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/arab-sixth-graders-passengers-on-jerusalem-bus-harassed-us.premium-1.496251

At least three passengers on a public bus in Jerusalem harassed a group of Arab sixth-graders on their way home from school this week, with one woman calling them monkeys, issuing death threats, and hitting one of the girls and pulling her hair, according to the girl's father.
Ayub, the father, said his daughter has grown accustomed to verbal abuse while passing through Jewish neighborhoods, but that this was the first time she was physically assaulted. He said only one passenger came to the children's defense and asked the woman to desist.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 25, 2013, 05:03:55 PM
If you want to debate intolerance and hatred, how's this for a starter?



Gaza teens graduate from Hamas military school

First batch of teenagers graduate from Hamas terrorist training program

Associated Press Published:  01.24.13, 19:42 / Israel News 
 






More than 3,000 Palestinian teenagers have graduated from the Hamas terror group's first high school military training program in the Gaza Strip.



The Futuwwa, or Youth, program is a weekly elective that is offered in all of Gaza's high schools. Officials say 3,600 participated in the first session, which began in September and is aimed at fostering a new generation of leaders in the struggle against Israel.

"We teach the youth to honor the national flag and anthem, to strengthen their affinity with the homeland and Jerusalem, the spirit of resistance and the principles of steadfastness," said Abu Hozifa, a 29-year-old national security officer who teaches in the program. 

"We also prepare them in terms of faith and physical fitness to serve as resistance fighters if they want to be in the future."

During the one-hour session each week, students were taught to climb down buildings on ropes, jump through obstacle courses and crawl under barbed wire.

The oldest students are trained to use light weapons, while younger ones train with wooden rifles. Each participant is assigned to a security officer who oversees their training.

The Vangaurd
The first graduates, called the "Liberation Vanguards," were dressed in black T-shirts and hats, and some painted their faces black.

"My officer taught me the values of courage, sacrifice and love of jihad, as well as some battle tactics," said Radwan Wasfi, 15, whose black-painted face dripped with sweat after going through a drill. "I feel that I can free my energy in a good way. I can do for real what I do in video games."

Hamas' prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, who attended the ceremony held at a soccer stadium, said he had ordered his education minister to establish a full-time military college to open next September.

"This is the generation that will bring victory to its people and will liberate their land," he told the audience.

Hamas, an Islamic militant group sworn to Israel's destruction, seized control of Gaza from the rival Fatah faction of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in 2007.

The group has survived repeated bouts of fighting against Israel, most recently an eight-day flareup of heavy violence in November in which Hamas fired more than 1,500 rockets into Israel. The fighting ended in an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire.




Repeated attempts by the rival Palestinian factions to reconcile have sputtered.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4336807,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4336807,00.html)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 25, 2013, 05:14:55 PM
Shin Bet says it foiled 100 terror attacks in 2012
Ten Israelis killed in terrorist attacks in 2012, compared to 22 the previous year • Number of Jewish attacks against Palestinians decreases, but involvement of teens in these attacks increases • Dramatic increase in number of rockets fired from Gaza into Israel, most during Operation Pillar of Defense.

Lilach Shoval and Israel Hayom Staff


For first time in 40 years, no Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks in Judea and Samaria in 2012. |Photo credit: Lior Mizrahi

For first time in 40 years, no Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks in Judea and Samaria in 2012.


Israel's domestic spy agency, the Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet), says it thwarted 100 "serious" terror attacks in 2012, of which a third were planned kidnappings, the agency revealed in a report published Thursday. The Shin Bet said it arrested 2,300 terror suspects, which led to 2,170 indictments.


Half of the planned kidnapping attacks were planned roadside bombs followed by small-arms fire. Four planned suicide bombings were thwarted, as well as five infiltrations from the Sinai. Twenty kilograms of high-grade explosives and triggering mechanisms were caught — all smuggled through the border with Lebanon by Hezbollah. Command and control centers operated by Hamas in Ramallah and Hebron were uncovered. Hamas used the centers to rehabilitate its military infrastructure in the West Bank to carry out attacks, with an emphasis on kidnappings.


Some 10 million shekels to be used for terror financing were intercepted.


For the first time in four decades, no Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks in Judea and Samaria in 2012.


Despite the lack of deaths, there was an increase in the number of attacks in Judea and Samaria, from 320 in 2011 to 578 in 2012. The number of Molotov cocktail attacks in Judea and Samaria in 2012 rose 68 percent, compared to the previous year.


There were also no terror-related deaths in Jerusalem in 2012, but the number of attacks there also increased, from 191 in 2011 to 282 in 2012. The number of Molotov cocktail attacks in Jerusalem rose 31.5% in 2012, compared to the previous year.


Overall, 10 Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks in 2012, compared to 22 the previous year. Six of the deaths in 2012 were caused by rocket and mortar fire from the Gaza Strip.


Despite the decrease in terror-related deaths, the number of people wounded in terrorist attacks in Israel increased from 159 in 2011 to 309 in 2012. A vast majority (87%) of the latter injuries occurred during Operation Pillar of Defense in November. Some 232 people were wounded by rocket fire during Israel's eight-day offensive against terrorist groups in Gaza. Another 29 were wounded in the bombing of a Tel Aviv bus on the last day of the operation.


There was a dramatic increase in rocket fire from Gaza in 2012, with 2,327 rockets launched into Israel, compared to 419 in 2011.


The number of terror attacks against Israel originating in the Sinai Peninsula went up in 2012, as did the number of attempts by Hezbollah and Iran to strike Israeli targets overseas.


There was a prominent trend in 2012 of overseas attacks against targets with low security protection, such as local employees of Israeli diplomatic missions, members of the Jewish community and Israeli tourists. In July, five Israelis were killed in a bomb attack on their bus at the Burgas Airport in Bulgaria. In February, the wife of an Israeli Defense Ministry official was wounded when a bomb was attached to her vehicle in the Indian capital of New Delhi. On that same day, a bomb was discovered on the vehicle of a local employee of the Israeli Embassy in Tblisi, Georgia. Hezbollah and Iranian Revolutionary Guard operatives were also arrested in Thailand, Cyprus and Kenya in the midst of preparations for attacks against Israeli targets.


The number of attacks committed by far-right Jewish extremists against Palestinians fell by 40% in 2012 (18 in 2012, compared to 30 in 2011). There were three attacks by Jewish extremists against holy sites in 2012, a drop from seven in 2011. The number of cars set on fire by Jewish extremists also fell, from 21 in 2011 to 13 in 2012.


Jewish extremists were most active in the Binyamin area of Judea and Samaria, the Shin Bet report said.


Despite the overall decrease in attacks by far-right Jewish extremists against Palestinians in 2012, there was a significant increase in the involvement of minors in such attacks, including in the firebombing in August of a Palestinian taxi near Bat Ayin, in which six Palestinians were injured.


During 2012, 43 indictments were filed against far-right Jewish extremists. Some 18 were placed under house arrest and 29 administrative restraining orders against far-rightists were issued by the Israel Defense Forces Central Command.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=7170 (http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=7170)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2013, 05:44:04 PM
This reminded me of of our house Zionist

"When Cohen pressed Weiner on where Israel's eastern border is, he said something about the Jordan River. I have the tape, I have to dig that out. At this point a man in the audience shouted, Are you in Israel now? It was a New York crowd. A heckler from the other side attacked Brian Baird over his statement that the Israelis had bombed Al Quds hospital with white phosphorus. The heckler said that there were militants hiding themselves at the hospital. Baird (a contributor to our book on the Goldstone Report) shook his head in consternation. He said it was no credit to the heckler or the country he was supporting that he was actually defending the bombing of a hospital. "
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on January 25, 2013, 07:01:08 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 24, 2013, 05:04:17 PM
Since the 'ceasefire' after the last Israeli attack on Gaza 2 months ago...

In Gaza, at least...

4 people have been killed
77 people have been injured (16 of them children)
5 Israeli military incursions (not to mention regular fire into Gaza from Israeli border positions)
14 attacks on fishermen at sea

In the West Bank and East Jerusalem, at least...

6 people have been killed (3 of them children)
79 people have been injured (18 of them children)
531 Israeli military incursions
29 attacks by illegal (usually armed) Israeli settlers
2105 olive trees destroyed or damaged
18 houses or agricultural structures demolished
4 tented dwelling villages attacked with confiscation or damage to residential tents
1 new settlement outpost officially recognised by the Israeli state
3000+ new settlement units announced

And in all occupied Palestine together, at least...
438 Palestinians have been arrested (66 of them children, including one baby)
8 International and Israeli human rights defenders arrested

AND..... drum roll... inside Green Line Israel...

0 prosecutions of settlers or Israeli soldiers

(figures based on PCHR reports and media coverage)

GHD, what is your take on the destruction of the Jewish temple?

Some of those Palestinians are almost as bad as the Israeli's!
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 25, 2013, 07:07:05 PM
GHD doesn't reply to any of my posts. He seems to think I'll get bored and go away.

















































Yeah, like that's gonna happen.  ;D Once the Israeli goverment starts investing some dosh for Hasbara in Europe, I think I'll apply for a wee job.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2013, 08:19:45 PM
Quote from: stew on January 25, 2013, 07:01:08 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 24, 2013, 05:04:17 PM
Since the 'ceasefire' after the last Israeli attack on Gaza 2 months ago...

In Gaza, at least...

4 people have been killed
77 people have been injured (16 of them children)
5 Israeli military incursions (not to mention regular fire into Gaza from Israeli border positions)
14 attacks on fishermen at sea

In the West Bank and East Jerusalem, at least...

6 people have been killed (3 of them children)
79 people have been injured (18 of them children)
531 Israeli military incursions
29 attacks by illegal (usually armed) Israeli settlers
2105 olive trees destroyed or damaged
18 houses or agricultural structures demolished
4 tented dwelling villages attacked with confiscation or damage to residential tents
1 new settlement outpost officially recognised by the Israeli state
3000+ new settlement units announced

And in all occupied Palestine together, at least...
438 Palestinians have been arrested (66 of them children, including one baby)
8 International and Israeli human rights defenders arrested

AND..... drum roll... inside Green Line Israel...

0 prosecutions of settlers or Israeli soldiers

(figures based on PCHR reports and media coverage)

GHD, what is your take on the destruction of the Jewish temple?

What temple was destroyed?

Some of those Palestinians are almost as bad as the Israeli's!

Indeed they are. What I can't understand is how 130 "Terrorists" escaped prosecution !!!!

The Shin Bet said it arrested 2,300 terror suspects, which led to 2,170 indictments.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2013, 09:42:58 PM
BDB

You need to work on your rhetoric

I thought this
"We must do more under the rule of law to end intolerance, racism and anti-Semitism."
was quite a decent effort of yours.

It would be great if Israel could be run on the basis of decency and that intolerance had no place there.

But you know yourself what a cruel society it is.

And then when this is pointed out your only possible answer is whataboutery.


Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 25, 2013, 05:03:55 PM
If you want to debate intolerance and hatred, how's this for a starter?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4336807,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4336807,00.html)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 25, 2013, 09:48:41 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 25, 2013, 08:19:45 PM
Quote from: stew on January 25, 2013, 07:01:08 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 24, 2013, 05:04:17 PM
Since the 'ceasefire' after the last Israeli attack on Gaza 2 months ago...

In Gaza, at least...

4 people have been killed
77 people have been injured (16 of them children)
5 Israeli military incursions (not to mention regular fire into Gaza from Israeli border positions)
14 attacks on fishermen at sea

In the West Bank and East Jerusalem, at least...

6 people have been killed (3 of them children)
79 people have been injured (18 of them children)
531 Israeli military incursions
29 attacks by illegal (usually armed) Israeli settlers
2105 olive trees destroyed or damaged
18 houses or agricultural structures demolished
4 tented dwelling villages attacked with confiscation or damage to residential tents
1 new settlement outpost officially recognised by the Israeli state
3000+ new settlement units announced

And in all occupied Palestine together, at least...
438 Palestinians have been arrested (66 of them children, including one baby)
8 International and Israeli human rights defenders arrested

AND..... drum roll... inside Green Line Israel...

0 prosecutions of settlers or Israeli soldiers

(figures based on PCHR reports and media coverage)

GHD, what is your take on the destruction of the Jewish temple?

What temple was destroyed?

Some of those Palestinians are almost as bad as the Israeli's!

Indeed they are. What I can't understand is how 130 "Terrorists" escaped prosecution !!!!

The Shin Bet said it arrested 2,300 terror suspects, which led to 2,170 indictments.
Surely you can't believe that everyone arrested is guilty? Everyone, even Palestinians, are innocent until proven guilty.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 27, 2013, 04:15:47 PM

Israel admits Ethiopian women were given birth control shots

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519

A government official has for the first time acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.

Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course.

The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago.

Gamzu's letter instructs all gynecologists in the HMOs "not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment."

He also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.

Gamzu's letter came in response to a letter from Sharona Eliahu-Chai of the Association of Civil Rights in Israel, representing several women's rights and Ethiopian immigrants' groups. The letter demanded the injections cease immediately and that an investigation be launched into the practice.

About six weeks ago, on an Educational Television program journalist Gal Gabbay revealed the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants. The women's testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel's Ethiopian community. According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. "They told us they are inoculations," said one of the women interviewed. "They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn't want to."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 27, 2013, 05:10:13 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 27, 2013, 04:15:47 PM

Israel admits Ethiopian women were given birth control shots

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519

A government official has for the first time acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.

Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course.

The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago.

Gamzu's letter instructs all gynecologists in the HMOs "not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment."

He also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.

Gamzu's letter came in response to a letter from Sharona Eliahu-Chai of the Association of Civil Rights in Israel, representing several women's rights and Ethiopian immigrants' groups. The letter demanded the injections cease immediately and that an investigation be launched into the practice.

About six weeks ago, on an Educational Television program journalist Gal Gabbay revealed the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants. The women's testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel's Ethiopian community. According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. "They told us they are inoculations," said one of the women interviewed. "They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn't want to."

All part of the final solution to keep israel pure for the zionists and keep all the blacks and arabs out of the blood stream. Sounds familiar.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 27, 2013, 06:57:20 PM
the European Ashkenazi Jews who run Israel were no better with their own people - the Sephardi Jews from the Middle East who became Israel's working class



http://www.meforum.org/707/post-zionism-and-the-sephardi-question

At the center of the radical, post-Zionist Mizrahi critique is a deep feeling of victimization. The post-Zionist Mizrahi writers continue to live their parents' insults and humiliations at the hands of the European Ashkenazi Jewish establishment that absorbed them in Israel after immigration. Discriminatory policies created a continuing social and economic gap between Mizrahim and Ashkenazim. These academics promote the view held by many young Mizrahim that discrimination did not end with their parents' generation. The children—who, in large part, were born in Israel—continue to face discrimination and cope with social and economic handicaps.

The radical Mizrahim who turned to post-Zionism tap into anger beyond the well-known complaints of past ill-treatment, including the maabarot, the squalid tent cities into which Mizrahim were placed upon arrival in Israel; the humiliation of Moroccan and other Mizrahi Jews when Israeli immigration authorities shaved their heads and sprayed their bodies with the pesticide DDT[3]; the socialist elite's enforced secularization; the destruction of traditional family structure, and the reduced status of the patriarch by years of poverty and sporadic unemployment. These Mizrahi intellectuals' fury extends beyond even the state-sponsored kidnapping of Yemeni infants for adoption by Ashkenazi families who lost their children in the Holocaust.[4] The real anger Sephardim feel nowadays, and upon which these Mizrahi post-Zionists seize, comes from the extent to which, in their view, the Zionist narrative denied, erased, and excluded their historical identity.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: LeoMc on January 27, 2013, 10:34:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 27, 2013, 04:15:47 PM

Israel admits Ethiopian women were given birth control shots

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519

A government official has for the first time acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.

Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course.

The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago.

Gamzu's letter instructs all gynecologists in the HMOs "not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment."

He also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.

Gamzu's letter came in response to a letter from Sharona Eliahu-Chai of the Association of Civil Rights in Israel, representing several women's rights and Ethiopian immigrants' groups. The letter demanded the injections cease immediately and that an investigation be launched into the practice.

About six weeks ago, on an Educational Television program journalist Gal Gabbay revealed the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants. The women's testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel's Ethiopian community. According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. "They told us they are inoculations," said one of the women interviewed. "They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn't want to."
Are these women part of the Beta Israel that Mossad,etc, worked so hard to bring "home"?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 28, 2013, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 27, 2013, 10:34:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 27, 2013, 04:15:47 PM

Israel admits Ethiopian women were given birth control shots

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519

A government official has for the first time acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.

Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course.

The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago.

Gamzu's letter instructs all gynecologists in the HMOs "not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment."

He also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.

Gamzu's letter came in response to a letter from Sharona Eliahu-Chai of the Association of Civil Rights in Israel, representing several women's rights and Ethiopian immigrants' groups. The letter demanded the injections cease immediately and that an investigation be launched into the practice.

About six weeks ago, on an Educational Television program journalist Gal Gabbay revealed the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants. The women's testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel's Ethiopian community. According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. "They told us they are inoculations," said one of the women interviewed. "They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn't want to."
Are these women part of the Beta Israel that Mossad,etc, worked so hard to bring "home"?
they want them for demographic reasons but they don't want any black children

"Most of the people [immigrants] coming here are Muslims who think the land doesn't belong to us, to the white man".
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/06/22/note-to-refugees-from-south-sudan-israel-is-for-the-white-man/
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 29, 2013, 03:04:58 PM
Bethlehem bans contact with Israel



Tuesday, January 29, 2013 |  Israel Today Staff   

In a further demonstration of Palestinian Authority intransigence, the mayor of Bethlehem on Sunday issued an order barring direct contact with Israel.

The Jerusalem Post reported that Mayor Abdel Fattah Hamayel, angered by ongoing efforts by Israeli organizations to open dialogue and cooperation with counterparts on the Palestinian side, declared that all municipal councils, trade institutions and NGOs in the Bethlehem area strictly forbidden from talking to the Israelis.

"In wake of repeated Israeli calls to deal directly with Palestinian municipalities and institutions and hold meetings and conferences with the Israeli side, it is forbidden to have direct contact or coordination with Israel," said Hamayel.

Hamayel and other Palestinian Authority officials want all contact between Palestinians and Israelis to only go through the PA's District Coordinating Office, and has condemned any external contact as "promoting normalization."

This development would seem to further contradict assertions that Israel is to blame for the lack of coexistence in the area.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23648/Default.aspx?topic=article_title (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23648/Default.aspx?topic=article_title)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 29, 2013, 03:09:59 PM
Palestinians attack Israeli bus, kindergarten; riots in Jerusalem


Monday, January 28, 2013 |  Israel Today Staff   


A series of Palestinian attacks against Israelis occurred in and around Jerusalem over the weekend, a clear reminder that the tension-wracked capital remains ready to explode despite relative calm in recent months.

On Sunday evening, a bus traveling from Jerusalem to a Jewish community just north of the city was damaged in a Palestinian stone-throwing attacks. Because the stones managed to penetrate the bulletproof glass, it was at first reported as a shooting attacks.

Also on the outskirts of Jerusalem, Israeli security forces in at least three separate incidents caught would-be Arab assailants in possession of pipe bombs.

Earlier on Sunday, an Arab man assaulted a Jew in the capital's Givat Shaul neighborhood, according to Israel National News. The attack resulted in a riot that saw dozens of Jews and Arabs face off in violent confrontation.

Near the Old City, police officers sent to demolish two illegally built Arab structures were attacked by a mob, and one officer sustained light injuries.

South of Jerusalem, in the Judean town of Hebron, Arab stone-throwers attacked a kindergarten in Hebron's main Jewish enclave.
Israeli security officials have noted a significant rise in the number of attacks in and around Jerusalem in recent months, both armed attacks and "popular" attacks, which means the assailants use Molotov cocktails and stones instead of guns and knives.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23646/Default.aspx?hp=popular_posts (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23646/Default.aspx?hp=popular_posts)


Maybe it was those evil jewish kids that caused it, just by being there in the first place.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 29, 2013, 03:21:04 PM
Stones? No doubt the F16s are on already en route.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 29, 2013, 03:31:39 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 29, 2013, 03:21:04 PM
Stones? No doubt the F16s are on already en route.


Using White Phosphorus on schools and school children is more their style.....

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCLvZvxLRyZ_EHHVeQq6PAw1CWXY7FMXmzUmC3lHmXJulahKTW7w)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2013, 03:33:17 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 29, 2013, 03:09:59 PM
Palestinians attack Israeli bus, kindergarten; riots in Jerusalem


Monday, January 28, 2013 |  Israel Today Staff   


A series of Palestinian attacks against Israelis occurred in and around Jerusalem over the weekend, a clear reminder that the tension-wracked capital remains ready to explode despite relative calm in recent months.

On Sunday evening, a bus traveling from Jerusalem to a Jewish community just north of the city was damaged in a Palestinian stone-throwing attacks. Because the stones managed to penetrate the bulletproof glass, it was at first reported as a shooting attacks.

Also on the outskirts of Jerusalem, Israeli security forces in at least three separate incidents caught would-be Arab assailants in possession of pipe bombs.

Earlier on Sunday, an Arab man assaulted a Jew in the capital's Givat Shaul neighborhood, according to Israel National News. The attack resulted in a riot that saw dozens of Jews and Arabs face off in violent confrontation.

Near the Old City, police officers sent to demolish two illegally built Arab structures were attacked by a mob, and one officer sustained light injuries.

South of Jerusalem, in the Judean town of Hebron, Arab stone-throwers attacked a kindergarten in Hebron's main Jewish enclave.
Israeli security officials have noted a significant rise in the number of attacks in and around Jerusalem in recent months, both armed attacks and "popular" attacks, which means the assailants use Molotov cocktails and stones instead of guns and knives.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23646/Default.aspx?hp=popular_posts (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23646/Default.aspx?hp=popular_posts)


Maybe it was those evil jewish kids that caused it, just by being there in the first place.

Have you ever been to Hebron, BDB?
I think the Jewish settlers there are mentally ill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXSFsJV084
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 29, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
A B'Tselem investigation indicates that on Monday morning, 19 November 2012, at about 7:30 AM, students from the Tuqu' boys' high school were protesting the Pillar of Defense campaign in the Gaza Strip. The school is located near Route 356, which links Bethlehem and Hebron, and some of the students were throwing stones at the road. Consequently, an Israeli military force of 11 soldiers arrived on the scene in two vehicles.

A video filmed by a photographer for the Palestinian Ma'an News Agency shows what happened next. The video and other testimony gathered by B'Tselem reveal that several students were throwing stones at the soldiers, who responded with tear gas grenades and then began leaving the area. Two of the soldiers were standing at some distance from the others, right by Route 356. At that point, one of the two soldiers opened fire, firing two live rounds at the students, even though none of the soldiers was in any danger at the time and the two soldiers had the advantage of significantly higher ground. The video shows that, after the shots were fired, the other soldier ran over to the shooter and drew him away from the scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6JYw_5-j0Pk

http://www.btselem.org/firearms/20130106_muhammad_al_badan_injured_by_live_ammunition
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 29, 2013, 04:15:59 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 29, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
A B'Tselem investigation indicates that on Monday morning, 19 November 2012, at about 7:30 AM, students from the Tuqu' boys' high school were protesting the Pillar of Defense campaign in the Gaza Strip. The school is located near Route 356, which links Bethlehem and Hebron, and some of the students were throwing stones at the road. Consequently, an Israeli military force of 11 soldiers arrived on the scene in two vehicles.

A video filmed by a photographer for the Palestinian Ma'an News Agency shows what happened next. The video and other testimony gathered by B'Tselem reveal that several students were throwing stones at the soldiers, who responded with tear gas grenades and then began leaving the area. Two of the soldiers were standing at some distance from the others, right by Route 356. At that point, one of the two soldiers opened fire, firing two live rounds at the students, even though none of the soldiers was in any danger at the time and the two soldiers had the advantage of significantly higher ground. The video shows that, after the shots were fired, the other soldier ran over to the shooter and drew him away from the scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6JYw_5-j0Pk

http://www.btselem.org/firearms/20130106_muhammad_al_badan_injured_by_live_ammunition

Yeehhhhh, that makes it OK then. So, because a pal rioter got shot, while throwing rocks at an Israeli soldier, those evil jewish kids got what's coming. Are you seriously trying to equate that to an attack on pre-school children?

Freak
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 29, 2013, 10:12:39 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21249431

Israel boycotts UN rights council in unprecedented move

The Israeli authorities refused to co-operate with a fact-finding mission investigating settlements

Israel has boycotted a regular review by the UN Human Rights Council, the first time any country has done so.

The move was expected as Israel has long been angered by what it claims is unfair criticism from the body.

A decision last year to investigate Jewish settlements in the West Bank prompted Israel to announce it would no longer co-operate with the council.

Meanwhile, the US has suggested the outcome of Israel's election may revive hopes of peace with the Palestinians.

Outgoing Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she believed the election "opens doors, not nails them shut" during a "global town hall" meeting at which she took questions from internet users and broadcasters.

Right-wing and centre-left blocs won a roughly equal share of seats in Israel's Knesset (parliament) in the vote a week ago. Talks to hammer out a ruling coalition are under way.

'New territory'
Following the no-show by Israeli representatives at Tuesday's meeting of the UN human rights council in Geneva, the meeting was suspended and a response is being decided.

"After a series of votes and statements and incidents we have decided to suspend our working relations with that body," Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor told the Financial Times on Tuesday.

"I can confirm that there is no change in that policy."

Council spokesman Rolando Gomez told the Associated Press that Israel's unprecedented absence had put the council in "new territory" because attendance of the Universal Periodic Review was mandatory.

Haitian representatives failed to appear before the council in 2010, but on the basis that their country had suffered a devastating earthquake. Otherwise, so far all countries - even Syria and North Korea - have attended.

Israel's action has prompted concern that it might undermine the UN's human rights work, says the BBC's Imogen Foulkes in Geneva.

Human rights experts fear other countries facing awkward questions might follow suit.

Even Israel's biggest ally, the United States, had urged Israel to take part. The big question now is what - if anything - the UN can do about Israel's refusal to participate, our correspondent adds.

A joint statement by eight Israeli human rights groups said: "It is legitimate for Israel to express criticism of the work of the council and its recommendations, but Israel should do so through engagement with the Universal Periodic Review, as it has done in previous sessions."

In her comments on the prospects for peace between Israel and the Palestinians, Mrs Clinton - on one of her final public engagements before stepping down from US President Barack Obama's administration - struck a positive note.

She said in the elections a "significant percentage" of the Israeli electorate had indicated they believed "we need a different path than the one we have been pursuing, internally and with respect to the Middle East peace process.

"So I know that President Obama, [and] my successor, soon-to-be Secretary of State John Kerry, will pursue this, will look for every possible opening," she said.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing Likud-Beitenu alliance took the largest single share of parliamentary seats in the poll, but its tally of seats was down by a quarter.

Yair Lapid's newly-formed centrist Yesh Atid party surprised observers by coming second with 19 seats.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 30, 2013, 08:53:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSB9ly7te6E
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 30, 2013, 09:18:40 PM
I see Gods chosen ones are back doing what they do best as they launch airstrikes on Syria, just north of Damascus......
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 30, 2013, 10:40:20 PM
So the Jewish state boycotts the UN human rights yoke.
Wow. Is that the price of keeping the occupation going? Human rights out the window.
No need anyway with the IDF. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 30, 2013, 10:46:20 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on January 30, 2013, 09:18:40 PM
I see Gods chosen ones are back doing what they do best as they launch airstrikes on Syria, just north of Damascus......
Coming to the aid of the Syrian people?  Preventing Assad from using Russian rockets, possibly filled with chemical weapons against his own people, or anyone else?
Should Israel have asked permission from Hamas before attacking?

Exactly what do you think they should have done?

It's easy to sit back and criticise from your armchair, but slightly more difficult to deal with the reality.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Dougal Maguire on January 30, 2013, 10:48:45 PM
I love the irony where a person with the moniker Baldy Beaver spends their time defending a nation run by cnuts
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 30, 2013, 10:53:27 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 30, 2013, 10:48:45 PM
I love the irony where a person with the moniker Baldy Beaver spends their time defending a nation run by cnuts
If one person on this board chose the perfect usermane, it was you.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 31, 2013, 12:53:54 AM
See below for the classic argument in favour of Israel, except it isn't. It doesn't argue at all. It simply sets out to undermine any criticism using various diversions. Statements such as 'Being Irish means being anti-Israel' are simply put in without serious examination. He refers to schoolchildren a women from Israel met and a teacher who was 'as ignorant regarding the conflict as his young students' but gives no information on how this was ascertained.

The thrust if the argument condemning the Irish begins with this ridiculous statement: "In Ireland, as in most places, you can't approach a fifty-five year old taxi driver in a pub and have a discussion with him about the slaughter of hundreds of Rohingya Muslims by Buddhists in Western Burma."

After meandering through lots of further decoys such "Between 2006 and 2007, the United Nations officially condemned Israel 22 times while ignoring Sudan, a country which was then engaged in genocide in Darfur.' without even addressing the question, why the world, through the UN, would do that. The Sudan genocide, not to belittle it in any way, ran from 2003 to 2010. The UN issued many resolutions on Sudan between 2003 and the present, including this one in 2006 http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8821.doc.htm (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8821.doc.htm).   

Having started with the ridiculous Dublin taxi driver statement above he then finished with the equally stupid: "It comes down to this: the day I meet a supporter of Palestine who can discuss in detail various global conflicts and has taken a side in each one giving moral and historical reasons for doing so, I will take their opinions on Israel/Palestine at face value."

He lambasts Irish people for seeing in Palestine their own struggle 'despite the two conflicts being nothing alike' and yet he burdens anyone with an opinion of having to be able to 'discuss in details various global conflicts and has taken a side in each one giving moral and historical reasons for doing so'.

Imagine saying to a Celtic tracksuit and a fleg warrior going at each other in West Belfast that their opinions are irrelevant unless they can 'have a discussion with him about the slaughter of hundreds of Rohingya Muslims by Buddhists in Western Burma'.

http://derekhopper.tumblr.com/post/41707493960/ignorance-ancient-hatreds-and-unwanted-limelight (http://derekhopper.tumblr.com/post/41707493960/ignorance-ancient-hatreds-and-unwanted-limelight)


28TH JAN 2013
Anyone who sympathises with Israel will be used to pro-Palestine activists feigning offence when accused of anti-Semitism. Their predictable response is that criticism of Israel does not equate to anti-Semitism, and in some cases that is true. No country is a utopia and no state is all-benevolent or collectively omniscient. Israel has made mistakes and for those it should be criticised, as it regularly is, by its own citizens, politicians and media. But there is something untoward in the completely disproportionate criticism directed at the Middle East's only democracy.

A few days ago the Jerusalem Post published a depressing article by an Israeli woman who described coming across a group of Irish schoolchildren in Co. Kerry. The children were collecting money for a well-known Catholic charity. The language used by the children was shocking, more reminiscent of medieval Germany or Ukraine in the early twentieth century than Ireland in 2013: 'What do you have against Palestinians? What have they done to you? They [the Palestinians] are only against Jews. Jews are evil'; 'They [the Jews] crucified our Lord'. The teacher was approached by the author but proved to be as ignorant regarding the conflict as his young students. This is unsurprising. Being Irish means being anti-Israel. It is simply the default position.

In Ireland, as in most places, you can't approach a fifty-five year old taxi driver in a pub and have a discussion with him about the slaughter of hundreds of Rohingya Muslims by Buddhists in Western Burma. Similarly, the conversation will be very one-sided when trying to discuss with a twenty-one year old anarchist the subject of Morocco's treatment of the ninety thousand Sahrawi people it has forced to live in a collection of refugee camps in Algeria since 1975, denying them access to their homelands in Western Sahara by a wall 2,700km in length. Because he won't have heard of it. It is probable that the Marxist-Feminist reading club in your university won't be able to tell you a thing about the Armenian Genocide, the M-23 Rebellion in Congo, or the mass slaughter in Syria.

One thing all the above people will be experts on, however, is Israel.

Israel is a small country and by global standards its conflict with the Palestinians is obscure, almost irrelevant. Relatively speaking, very few people actually die; around 6,500 Palestinians in the period 1987 to 2011. By contrast, 40,000 people have died in Syria in the last year. And despite what the propaganda says, malnutrition (unlike in Western Sahara) isn't a problem for Palestinians. According to the World Heath Organisation obesity is. Palestinians are among the top ten fattest peoples on Earth.

There are precious few protests outside Russian embassies even though it was responsible for crushing Grozny, leaving thousands dead and homeless. Turkish diplomats live largely untroubled, peaceful lives despite their country's occupation of North Cyprus and their treatment of the Kurds. Even leaving aside the obvious crimes of the 'axis of evil' states, the world is full of cases that deserve our attention. The Naxalite-Maoist insurgency in India, the Nigerian Sharia conflict, the insurgency in Yemen; all saw more people killed in 2012 than the Israel-Palestine conflict. If it is sympathy for the suffering of others that so inflames passions among pro-Palestine supporters then why are so many of them listless when presented with the death tolls of other conflicts?

Too many Irish people are simply misinformed. They see in Palestine our own struggle for independence, despite the two conflicts being nothing alike. Their arguments are the usual canards: 'the Israelis stole the land from the Palestinians', 'Israel is an apartheid state', and so on. Ignorance of a decades-long conflict in Balochistan is one thing, but confidence bordering on arrogance doesn't usually accompany it. When it comes to the Levant everyone thinks they're right, even if they've never read anything more demanding on the topic than a Noam Chomsky op-ed in the New York Times.

The European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights states that 'requiring of [Israel] a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation' is anti-Semitism. Between 2006 and 2007, the United Nations officially condemned Israel 22 times while ignoring Sudan, a country which was then engaged in genocide in Darfur. Sudan is not democratic, of course, but this statistic reveals the United Nations' immoral, rotten core. That people in Ireland continue to cite UN resolutions in arguments against Israel reveals epistemological breakdown on a mass scale.

Irish supporters of Palestine continue in their crusade against tiny, democratic Israel. They nefariously encourage boycotts economic, cultural and academic, (though it will always be Ireland that loses out in such an arrangement given Israel's scientific brilliance and technological prowess). LGBT banners fly beside Hamas flags in Dublin protests against the only country in the region where one can be gay. The godless infidels who make up the Irish left march against the only country in the Middle East where it is safe to be an atheist and an apostate. The scene is so strange, its callowness so disconcerting, it is as if the world has become a utopia except for one pocket of the Middle East where human suffering exists on an unimaginable scale, a world where everyone focuses their energy on freeing the benighted peoples of Palestine (life expectancy: 75 years).

It comes down to this: the day I meet a supporter of Palestine who can discuss in detail various global conflicts and has taken a side in each one giving moral and historical reasons for doing so, I will take their opinions on Israel/Palestine at face value. Until that day I will assume that the shrill scrutiny they subject Israel to represents a primitive obsession with Jews, one that exists subconsciously in the fabric of our civilisation, the vestigial but ever-present remains of over a thousand years' worth of European Jew-hatred. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
Ask 10 random people what they know about Israel/palestine, and 9 of them will trot out the same garbage they heard on the news the night before. They won't be able to give any sort of background to what they had heard, or give you any personal view on it. This board is a prime example of that ignorance.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2013, 09:10:41 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
Ask 10 random people what they know about Israel/palestine, and 9 of them will trot out the same garbage they heard on the news the night before. They won't be able to give any sort of background to what they had heard, or give you any personal view on it. This board is a prime example of that ignorance.
That is because Israeli PR is finished. The situation was very different in the 70s.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2013, 09:53:50 AM
Why Palestine Should Take Israel to Court in The Hague

By GEORGE BISHARAT

LAST week, the Palestinian foreign minister, Riad Malki, declared that if Israel persisted in its plans to build settlements in the currently vacant area known as E-1, which lies between Palestinian East Jerusalem and the Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim, "we will be going to the I.C.C.," referring to the International Criminal Court. "We have no choice," he added.

The Palestinians' first attempt to join the I.C.C. was thwarted last April when the court's chief prosecutor at the time, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, declined the request on the grounds that Palestine was not a state. That ambiguity has since diminished with the United Nations' conferral of nonmember state status on Palestine in November. Israel's frantic opposition to the elevation of Palestine's status at the United Nations was motivated precisely by the fear that it would soon lead to I.C.C. jurisdiction over Palestinian claims of war crimes.

Israeli leaders are unnerved for good reason. The I.C.C. could prosecute major international crimes committed on Palestinian soil anytime after the court's founding on July 1, 2002.

Since the outbreak of the second Palestinian intifada in 2000, the Israel Defense Forces, guided by its military lawyers, have attempted to remake the laws of war by consciously violating them and then creating new legal concepts to provide juridical cover for their misdeeds. For example, in 2002, an Israeli F-16 dropped a one-ton bomb on an apartment building in a densely populated Gaza neighborhood, killing a Hamas military leader, Salah Shehadeh, and 14 others, including his wife and seven children under the age of 15. In 2009, Israeli artillery killed more than 20 members of the Samouni family, who had sought shelter in a structure in the Zeitoun district of Gaza City at the bidding of Israeli soldiers. Last year, Israeli missiles killed two Palestinian cameramen working for Al Aksa television. Each of these acts, and many more, could lead to I.C.C. investigations.

The former head of the Israeli military's international law division, Daniel Reisner, asserted in 2009: "International law progresses through violations. We invented the targeted assassination thesis and we had to push it. At first there were protrusions that made it hard to insert easily into the legal molds. Eight years later it is in the center of the bounds of legitimacy."

Colonel Reisner is right that customary international law is formed by the actual practice of states that other states accept as lawful. But targeted assassinations are not widely accepted as legal. Nor are Israel's other attempted legal innovations.

Israel has categorized military clashes with the Palestinians as "armed conflict short of war," instead of the police actions of an occupying state — thus freeing the Israeli military to use F-16 fighter jets and other powerful weaponry against barely defended Palestinian populations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

It has designated individuals who fail to leave a targeted area after a warning as "voluntary human shields" who are therefore subject to lawful attack, despite the fact that warnings may not be effective and escape routes not clear to the victims.

And it has treated civilian employees of Hamas — including police officers, judges, clerks, journalists and others — as combatants because they allegedly support a "terrorist infrastructure." Never mind that contemporary international law deems civilians "combatants" only when they actually take up arms.

All of these practices could expose Israeli political and military officials to prosecutions for war crimes. To be clear, the prosecutions would be for particular acts, not for general practices, but statements by Israeli officials explaining their policies could well provide evidence that the acts were intentional and not mere accidents of war.

No doubt, Israel is most worried about the possibility of criminal prosecutions for its settlements policy. Israeli bluster notwithstanding, there is no doubt that Jewish settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are illegal. Israeli officials have known this since 1967, when Theodor Meron, then legal counsel to the Israeli Foreign Ministry and later president of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, wrote to one of Prime Minister Levi Eshkol's aides: "My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

Under the founding statute of the I.C.C., grave violations of the Geneva Conventions, including civilian settlements in occupied territories, are considered war crimes.

The next step for the Palestinians is to renew a certificate of accession to the I.C.C. with the United Nations secretary general. Assuming that I.C.C. jurisdiction is accepted, investigations of alleged Israeli war crimes would still not begin automatically, because the I.C.C. must next find that Israel's own courts are failing to adequately review those charges. Palestinians, by inviting I.C.C. investigations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, also run the risk that their own possible violations — such as deliberate attacks on Israeli civilians — could come under I.C.C. scrutiny.

If Palestinians succeed in getting the I.C.C. to examine their grievances, Israel's campaign to bend international law to its advantage would finally be subjected to international judicial review and, one hopes, curbed. Israel's dangerous legal innovations, if accepted, would expand the scope of permissible violence to previously protected persons and places, and turn international humanitarian law on its head. We do not want a world in which journalists become fair game because of their employers' ideas.

If the choice is between a Palestinian legal intifada, in which arguments are hashed out in court, and an actual intifada, in which blood flows in the streets, the global community should encourage the former.

Indeed, Palestinians would be doing themselves, Israelis and the global community a favor by invoking I.C.C. jurisdiction. Ending Israel's impunity for its clear violations of legal norms would both promote peace in the Middle East and help uphold the integrity of international law.

George Bisharat is a professor at the University of California's Hastings College of the Law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/opinion/why-palestine-should-take-israel-to-court-in-the-hague.html?_r=0
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2013, 10:43:21 AM
"Ending Israel's impunity for its clear violations of legal norms would both promote peace in the Middle East and help uphold the integrity of international law."

Unfortunately GHD international law is antisemitic (see below) and Israel is above the law since the Jews were chosen by God.  And the Palestinian obesity stats mean nothing can be done. with thanks to BDB for the insight.

According to the World Heath Organisation obesity is. Palestinians are among the top ten fattest peoples on Earth.
It comes down to this: the day I meet a supporter of Palestine who can discuss in detail various global conflicts and has taken a side in each one giving moral and historical reasons for doing so, I will take their opinions on Israel/Palestine at face value. Until that day I will assume that the shrill scrutiny they subject Israel to represents a primitive obsession with Jews, one that exists subconsciously in the fabric of our civilisation, the vestigial but ever-present remains of over a thousand years' worth of European Jew-hatred
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2013, 12:03:21 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/31/us-israel-palestinians-settlements-idUSBRE90U0EI20130131


U.N. human rights inquiry says Israel must remove settlers

(Reuters) - United Nations human rights investigators called on Israel on Thursday to halt settlement expansion and withdraw all Jewish settlers from the occupied West Bank, saying that its practices violated international law.

"Israel must, in compliance with article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, cease all settlement activities without preconditions. It must immediately initiate a process of withdrawal of all settlers from the OPT (occupied Palestinian territories)," said a report by the inquiry led by French judge Christine Chanet.

The settlements contravene the 1949 Geneva Conventions forbidding the transfer of civilian populations into occupied territory, which could amount to war crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC), it said.

In December, the Palestinians accused Israel in a letter to the United Nations of planning to commit further "war crimes" by expanding Jewish settlements after the Palestinians won de facto U.N. recognition of statehood and warned that Jerusalem must be held accountable.

Israel has not cooperated with the probe set up by the Human Rights Council last March to examine the impact of settlements in the territory, including East Jerusalem. Israel says the forum has an inherent bias against it and defends its settlement policy by citing historical and Biblical links to the West Bank.

The independent U.N. investigators interviewed more than 50 people who came to Jordan in November to testify about confiscated land, damage to their livelihoods including olive trees, and violence by Jewish settlers, according to the report.

"The mission believes that the motivation behind this violence and the intimidation against the Palestinians as well as their properties is to drive the local populations away from their lands and allow the settlements to expand," it said.

"CREEPING ANNEXATION"

About 250 settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established since 1967 and they hold an estimated 520,000 settlers, according to the U.N. report. The settlements impede Palestinian access to water resources and agricultural lands, it said.

The settlements were "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it said.

After the General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians status at the world body, Israel said it would build 3,000 more settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - areas Palestinians wanted for a future state, along with the Gaza Strip.

The U.N. human rights inquiry said that the International Criminal Court had jurisdiction over the deportation or transfer by the occupying power of its own population into the territory.

"Ratification of the (Rome) Statute by Palestine may lead to accountability for gross violations of human rights law and serious violations of international humanitarian law and justice for victims," the U.N. report said, referring to the treaty setting up the Hague-based U.N. tribunal which prosecutes people for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 03:36:55 PM

Op-Ed: Abbas' Moment in the Sun


Published: Monday, December 03, 2012 10:57 PM

Abbas may have opened Pandora's Box by claiming a pyrrhic victory on "statehood" without understanding the consequences of his actions.




Mark Silverberg, Ariel U. Policy Research Center
Mark Silverberg is a foreign policy analyst for the Ariel Center for Policy Research (Israel), a Contributing Editor for Family Security Matters, Intellectual Conservative and the New Media Journal and a member of Hadassah's National Academic Advisory Board. His book "The Quartermasters of Terror: Saudi Arabia and the Global Islamic Jihad" and his articles have been archived under www. marksilverberg .com and www. analyst-network .com.
► More from this writer




The two decades that have passed since the signing of the Oslo Accords have proven that the "two-state solution" is an impossibility and that peace with a Palestinian state (west of the Jordan River) is an oxymoron.


This belief was reinforced once again on November 29th when the overwhelming majority of members of the UN General Assembly (UNGA) passed a politically-motivated resolution upgrading the status of the Palestinian Authority (PA) from an "observer entity" to an "observer state" thereby granting it its most significant upgrade in diplomatic status in decades.


Although the UNGA has never had the power or authority to establish genuine legal states other than though non-binding recommendations, even so, by passing such a status-upgrade resolution, both the PA and the UNGA have effectively nullified any chance that may have existed to establish a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.


In doing so, they may also have laid the groundwork for nullifying the Oslo Accords that created the PA and the Paris Protocols - the section delineating economic agreements between Israel and the PA.


According to Article XXXI, Sec. 7 of the Oslo II Interim Agreement from 1995: "Neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of permanent status negotiations."


Separate and apart from the fact that the Accords have been honored by the PA more in their breach than their observance for almost two decades, even the act of requesting and receiving a change of status from the UN General Assembly from "non-member observer entity" to "non-member observer state" may well have rendered those Accords null and void should Israel wish to do so.


Neither recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, nor negotiating Israel's security needs, nor any desire to end the conflict with Israel appears in the resolution. In response, the Israelis have several options, the most dramatic of which (as suggested by Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman) could involve nullifying the Accords, dismantling the Palestinian Authority (PA) - unlikely as that may be - and annexing the Jewish cities and towns of Judea and Samaria into Israel proper.


To the UN General Assembly, it would seem that the legal conditions required for statehood by the Montevideo Convention (1933) are irrelevant. According to that Convention, a state must possess a defined territory, a government, a capacity to enter into relations with other states, and a permanent population. The Palestinian Authority possesses none of these requirements, although these "minor facts" did not prevent the UNGA from voting for it.


"Palestine" lacks a "defined territory" (which has yet to be negotiated with Israel); a central "government" (40% of its population is ruled by a terrorist organization and the other 60% by an unelected administrative entity that has not held an election in seven years and has no intention of doing so).

It has no "capacity to enter into relations with other states" (Hamas in Gaza is not bound by Abbas's directives, nor is his authority recognized by it, nor is he allowed entry into Gaza, nor can he bind "Palestine" to anything, nor has he honored his commitments in Phase I of the Roadmap which required him to dismantle Hamas and other terrorist groups), and his "state" lacks a "permanent population" since most Palestinians consider themselves not citizens of a new state but temporary residents ("refugees" according to UNRWA) awaiting their return to Israel (as "Palestine").


As Stephen Rosen wrote recently, this new "state" comprised of Hamas-controlled Gaza and the PA areas has: "two incompatible presidents, two rival prime ministers, a constitution whose most central provisions are violated by both sides, no functioning legislature, no ability to hold elections, a population mostly not under its control, borders that would annex territory under the control of other powers, and no clear path to resolve any of these conflicts".


Other than grabbing his moment in the sun and moving "Palestine's" UN seat from the Observer section to the "P" section between Panama and Pakistan, Abbas may have opened Pandora's Box by claiming a pyrrhic victory on "statehood" without understanding the consequences of his actions. In doing so, he inauspiciously rebuffed the President of the United States in a manner that will no doubt figure into Obama's future decision-making on his Middle East policies.


But, as in all things, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In this case, the majority of Palestinian Arabs seem to understand very well what's coming up the pipeline. According to a poll published in Ma'an in early November, while an overwhelming majority (84%) of Palestinians supported the UN bid, that support was tempered with 90% believing Israel would enact policies to punish the Palestinians for the maneuver, and over 50% believed that the bid would have a negative effect on the Palestinians in the short-term.


They are absolutely right.


Congress had previously warned the PA that there would be financial consequences in its relationship with the United States should it pursue this issue in the General Assembly. It specifically linked this financial threat to Congressional aid to the PA and to the operation of its office in Washington.


Also at financial risk will be future U.S. funding for every UN agency that "Palestine" joins - funding that, in most cases, amounts to almost 25% of these agencies' budgets. In 2011, the U.S. withdrew funding from UNESCO and others are at risk because of this UNGA vote - including funding for the United Nations itself if Republican Senator Orrin Hatch's amendment to the Defense bill is passed.


Israel also made its decision on how to respond to the UN status upgrade. Construction was announced on 3,000 homes in Jerusalem and the "West Bank" and planning expedited for the area linking Jerusalem and Maaleh Adummim, and this is only the beginning. Prime Minister Netanyahu appears to be taking a page from former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's playbook when Rabin, in 1975, approved large construction projects in Judea and Samaria in response to a UN conference equating Zionism with racism.


So far as the Israelis are concerned, if the Palestinians are unprepared and unwilling to negotiate on the fundamental issues of Israel's security needs and acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state, then there's nothing to discuss. If independence is what the Palestinians want, then independence is what they will get.


Israel is in position to exact a high price from the PA for its UN actions. Translated into goods and services, Israel, if it so wishes, can terminate the supply of numerous services it provides to the PA - water, electricity, fuel, postal services, communications, port facilities and tax collection.


It has already delayed the transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenues it has collected on behalf of the PA and applied it against the massive electricity debt owed by the PA to the Israel Electric Corporation and other bodies. Gaza derives at least 40% of its power from Israel's electrical power grid and the PA-controlled areas of Judea and Samaria derive 100% of their electricity from Israel.


Abbas is about to learn that violating the Accords and agreements that created the PA itself has a price, and that price will translate into financial disaster, economic hardship, and a massive loss of honor.


PA corruption and cronyism and its miniscule private sector together with its bloated public service are completely dependent upon Israeli largesse and international foreign aid, much of which is paid as salaries to thousands of its civil servants and security personnel. In fact, 6% of its annual budget is allocated for payments to convicted terrorists in Israeli prisons and to the families of Palestinian "martyrs", while less than 1% is directed towards higher education.


There are however significant downsides to destroying the PA as punishment for its UN actions. If recent polls are to be believed, Hamas would seize control of the area in a free election. For Israel, its worst nightmare would be the establishment of a genocidal Islamist "state" situated just a few miles from its major population centers. If anything mitigates against the destruction of the PA, this scenario would be it.


Should the IDF withdraw its military forces from the area and should Hamas overthrow the PA in the "West Bank" as it did in Gaza, the Israeli debate would no doubt move from annexation of the Jewish cities and towns of Judea and Samaria into Israel proper, to the re-conquest of the area and its return to pre-Oslo Israeli military control.


Another concern is that Abbas' advisers have already recommended using the PA's new UN upgraded "state" status to bring legal challenges before the International Criminal Court (ICC) against Israeli leaders for their alleged policies and practices in Gaza and Judea and Samaria.


On the one hand, it is doubtful that the PA would have the necessary status to bring such an action. In his speech to the General Assembly, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Ron Prosor said that the new status would not enable the PA to join international treaties, organizations or conferences as a state and does "not confer statehood on the Palestinian Authority, which clearly fails to meet the criteria for statehood" (as noted above).


That is, the 1998 Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) enables only internationally recognized states that are party to the Statute to refer complaints to the court. According to a Ambassador Alan Baker, writing for the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (JCPA): "In the same way Palestinians failed in 2011 to prove statehood when they attempted to obtain membership in the UN in light of the clear lack of national unity and capability of governance and inability to fulfill international obligations of a state, so now in 2012 it would be highly unlikely, even after an upgrade-resolution, that they will be able to prove to the ICC that they are a genuine legal state entitled to initiate complaints against Israeli officials and officers."


Moreover, the ICC generally does not get involved in countries that investigate themselves through formal, credible judicial reviews as does Israel.


If however, the PA is successful in having the ICC accept jurisdiction, it would likely turn out to be a double-edged sword. Israel could argue with merit that "Palestine" (which nominally includes Gaza as part of its sovereign territory) has committed war crimes against it by preaching genocide against Jews and the Jewish state, sending suicide bombers into Israel over the years, using human shields to avoid retaliatory strikes, and firing missiles into Israeli population centers from Gaza, and that if "Palestine" is a state controlled by the PA, then the PA is responsible for these acts.


That is a case more easily proven than is any case against Israel for having committed war crimes and/or crimes against humanity against Palestinians.


If Abbas chooses to approach the ICC, he had best be careful what he asks for.


In a broader sense, if the Palestinians don't accept that international recognition means they must accept Israel, they should not believe that international recognition means Israel must accept their "state".

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12531 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12531)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2013, 03:55:45 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21281923#TWEET570894

Syria has formally complained to the United Nations over a reported Israeli attack within its borders.

Syria's army said Israeli jets had targeted a military research centre north-west of Damascus on Wednesday, killing two people and wounding five.

It denied reports that lorries carrying weapons bound for Lebanon were hit.

Russia has called the attack unacceptable, while a Syrian official and Iranian deputy minister have suggested there could be retaliation.

The Syrian army statement about the incident, carried on state media, said Israeli fighter jets had carried out a direct strike on a scientific research centre in Jamraya.

Meanwhile Lebanese security sources, Western diplomats and Syrian rebels say an arms convoy near Lebanon's border was targeted. A US official attested to the strike, saying the lorries were carrying Russian-made SA-17 anti-aircraft missiles.

Jamraya Centre: Reported scientific research centre responsible for developing chemical weapons
Weapons convoy: Lorries carrying Russian-made SA-17 anti-aircraft missiles to Hezbollah bases in Lebanon

Israel has declined to comment.

The latest developments have struck a country in turmoil. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad continues to cling to power despite a 22-month conflict that has killed more than 60,000 people.

Golan agreement:

Syria's foreign ministry summoned the UN commander in the Golan to deliver its formal protest, saying Israel's action violated the 1974 disengagement agreement between the two sides, who remain technically at war.

A UN observer force has been in place in the Golan since 1974, with the task of providing "an area of separation and for two equal zones of limited forces and armaments on both sides of the area".

An Israeli air strike on Syria could cause a major diplomatic incident, analysts say, as Iran has said it will treat any Israeli attack on its ally Syria as an attack on itself.

Iran's foreign minister condemned the alleged air strike as an "overt assault based on the West's policy" to undermine stability in Syria.

Analysis:


Jonathan Marcus
BBC Diplomatic Correspondent

While a good share of Israel's and indeed Washington's attention is taken up by fears about Syria's chemical arsenal falling into the wrong hands, this latest air strike or strikes underscores Israel's equal worry about sophisticated conventional weapons being passed to Hezbollah.

Some four years ago the then Israeli government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned it would not tolerate what it called "game-changing" weapons being transferred to Hezbollah.

This Israeli operation can thus be seen as in one sense pre-emptive, but also as a warning to the Syrian authorities and to Hezbollah.

Quite how Hezbollah may respond is unclear. Last July's attack on an airport bus carrying Israeli tourists in Bulgaria suggests that if there is to be a response it might be indirect - against Israeli or Jewish targets abroad, rather than across Lebanon's own frontier with Israel.

Ramping up regional tension
"The Zionists got ahead of themselves in trying to cover up the successes of the Syrian government and nation in maintaining the existing government and restoring stability and security," Ali Akbar Salehi was quoted as saying by the semi-official ISNA news agency.

Iran's Fars news agency quoted the Deputy Foreign Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian as saying the raid would have "grave consequences for [the major Israeli city of] Tel Aviv".

Syrian Ambassador to Lebanon Ali Abdul-Karim Ali said Damascus could take a "surprise" decision to retaliate.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said: "If this information is confirmed, then we are dealing with unprovoked attacks on targets on the territory of a sovereign country, which blatantly violates the UN Charter and is unacceptable, no matter the motives to justify it."

Relations between Russia and Israel have been improving in recent years as trade and economic ties have grown stronger, says the BBC's Steve Rosenberg in Moscow.

But Moscow is a close ally of President Assad, which would explain its concern at the reports, our correspondent adds.

Weapons facility
The Syrian army statement said the Jamraya centre - which was focused on "raising our level of resistance and self-defence" - was damaged in the attack, and specifically denied reports that an arms convoy had been hit.

It said "armed terrorist gangs" - a term the government uses to describe rebel groups - had tried and failed repeatedly to capture the same facility in recent months.


Israeli media reaction

"Israel is closer today to confrontation on the northern front more than it has been at any point since the Second Lebanon War." Alex Fishman, Yedioth Ahronoth

"It could be seen as a hint to other countries, like Turkey and the US, that a military attack on Syria to topple the regime may be an option." Zvi Barel, Ha'aretz

"There have been many signs in recent days that winds of war are blowing in the north. But... an attack, which did or did not take place, will not lead to an immediate round of combat in the north." Amir Rapaport, Ma'ariv

"If Israel acted, as foreign publications say, the ball is in Assad's court. The problem is that in the current situation, he has no court and does not have much to lose. A wounded lion is a dangerous lion." Boaz Bismuth,Yisrael Hayom

Some reports suggest the facility could be Syria's Scientific Studies and Research Centre, known by its French acronym CERS, believed to be the state organisation responsible for developing biological and chemical weapons.

The Lebanese military and internal security forces have not confirmed the reports of an attack on an arms convoy.

But they say there has been increased activity by Israeli warplanes over Lebanon in the past week, and particularly on Tuesday and the early hours of Wednesday morning.

Israel has voiced fears that Syrian missiles and chemical weapons could fall into the hands of militants such as the Lebanese Shia militant group, Hezbollah.

Correspondents say Israel is also concerned that Hezbollah could obtain anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, thus strengthening its ability to respond to Israeli air strikes.

'Unsurprising'
Israel believes Syria received a battery of SA-17s from Russia after an alleged Israeli air strike in 2007 that destroyed a Syrian nuclear reactor near Deir Ezzor in eastern Syria, analysts say.

The US government said in 2008 that the reactor was "not intended for peaceful purposes".

Hezbollah said Wednesday's target was the Jamraya centre, condemning the attack as "an attempt to thwart Arab military capabilities" and pledging to stand by its ally Mr Assad.

The reported attack came days after Israel moved its Iron Dome defence system to the north of the country.

Israel has also joined the US in expressing concern that Syria's presumed chemical weapons stockpile could be taken over by militant groups.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 04:11:12 PM
Go Israel! (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Coat_of_arms_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force.png)


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2013, 04:20:47 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 04:11:12 PM
Go Israel! (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Coat_of_arms_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force.png)
Israel will be gone soon enough.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 04:54:13 PM
Not in our life time, and there will be a few others go before it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2013, 05:28:04 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 04:54:13 PM
Not in our life time, and there will be a few others go before it.
Tell us what happened to apartheid in South Africa.

It will be very hard for Zionism to survive sanctions.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-inquiry-calls-for-sanctions-against-israel-over-west-bank-settlements.premium-1.500565
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on January 31, 2013, 05:53:20 PM
I am beginning to think BDB works for Hamas.

If so well played.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 05:56:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2013, 05:28:04 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 04:54:13 PM
Not in our life time, and there will be a few others go before it.
Tell us what happened to apartheid in South Africa.

It will be very hard for Zionism to survive sanctions.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-inquiry-calls-for-sanctions-against-israel-over-west-bank-settlements.premium-1.500565
;D Do you do stand up by any chance?

Errrrr, I think you'll find that South Africa still exists.

Apart from the obvious contradictions in the two, SA was ruled by a minority, denying voting rights to the majority of it's citizens. Israel is ruled by a majority, denying no voting rights to it's minority citizens.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 06:46:10 PM

White House Warns Syria on Weapons after Syria Threatens Israel

Syria said that it reserves the right to retaliate to alleged Israeli air strike on a military research center.


AAFont Size
By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 1/31/2013, 6:57 PM


The White House on Thursday warned Syria not to transfer weapons to Hizbullah, as tensions mounted following reported Israeli raids on a military research center and a weapons convoy.

"Syria should not further destabilize the region by transferring weaponry to Hizbullah," said Ben Rhodes, a US deputy national security advisor.

Syria on Thursday warned that it reserves the right to retaliate to what it says was an Israeli air strike on a military research center near Damascus, as it lodged a complaint with the United Nations.

The Syrian foreign ministry said Israel "and the states that protect it at the UN Security Council" are responsible for the air strike, and "affirms Syria's right to defend itself and its territory and sovereignty," the state news agency SANA reported.

The ministry called on "all the competent UN bodies to take the necessary steps given this grave Israeli violation, and to guarantee that it will not happen again."

Although Israel and Syria are technically still at war, the ministry's official complaint referred to the 1974 disengagement agreement between Syria and Israel, SANA said.

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has summoned Iqbal Singha, commander of the UN Observer Disengagement Observer Force... and informed him of an official protest over the Israeli violation of the disengagement agreement of 1974," the ministry said.

Syria's ambassador to Beirut Ali Abdel Karim Ali, meanwhile, too stressed Syria'ss right to respond to "the Zionist aggression."

"The Israelis, and the United States behind them, along with their Arab and regional accomplices, realize that Syria, which defends its sovereignty and territory, may decide to respond by surprise to this aggression," Ali told Lebanese website Al-Ahad, which is close to Hizbullah.

"It is up to the competent powers to choose the appropriate answer, and to determine the means and the place," Ali added.

The ambassador also said the air strike unmasks "the link between the aggression and the war that has raged in Syria for two years", referring to the revolt that broke out against President Bashar al-Assad in March 2011.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164780 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164780)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: LeoMc on February 01, 2013, 09:07:10 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 31, 2013, 05:53:20 PM
I am beginning to think BDB works for Hamas.

If so well played.

You know you could be right, that "Abbas moment in the sun" article he posted was so bad I nearly replied to it and I had been reading his cut & pastes for 'balance' up to now.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 01, 2013, 09:21:07 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 05:56:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 31, 2013, 05:28:04 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on January 31, 2013, 04:54:13 PM
Not in our life time, and there will be a few others go before it.
Tell us what happened to apartheid in South Africa.

It will be very hard for Zionism to survive sanctions.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-inquiry-calls-for-sanctions-against-israel-over-west-bank-settlements.premium-1.500565
;D Do you do stand up by any chance?

Errrrr, I think you'll find that South Africa still exists.

Apart from the obvious contradictions in the two, SA was ruled by a minority, denying voting rights to the majority of it's citizens. Israel is ruled by a majority, denying no voting rights to it's minority citizens.

Is the Jordan Valley in Israel? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on February 01, 2013, 09:30:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 01, 2013, 09:21:07 AM
Is the Jordan Valley in Israel?

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28988442.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 01, 2013, 10:00:10 AM
Here is how modern day religious Judaism works in the West Bank

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-hilltop-youth-accuse-their-former-hero-of-stealing-settlers-land.premium-1.500458

In 1998, he started the Givot Olam farm, where he lives to this day. He got the land cheaply − by trespassing on both state land and land belonging to the nearby Palestinian village of Yanun. He attacked any Arab who approached his land and was convicted of assault four times, including one case of aggravated assault.
As his fame grew, he attracted many radical settler youth who hated the petit bourgeois lifestyle in the settlements where they grew up. These youths called themselves the "hilltop youth."
Today, Ran devotes himself to his agricultural business, which has a turnover of tens of millions of shekels a year and employs dozens of people. He has a flock of goats and an enormous hen house and grows various types of crops. Four trucks take his produce throughout the country under the brand name "Givot Olam." An associate says that nowadays, "he can't afford to let himself spend half a year under house arrest: His business is too big."
But when it's no longer possible to expand at the expense of the Arabs, the Jews are next in line.

And what is ""State Land" ? How does Israel have "State Land" beyond its borders? 


http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/jan/25/how-occupation-became-legal/

As revealed in The Law in These Parts, an engrossing new Israeli documentary making its American debut at the Sundance Film Festival, just hours after the ruling was handed down, Ariel Sharon, a keen supporter of the settlement project who was then Israel's Minister of Agriculture, organized a meeting to discuss how to circumvent it. Alexander Ramati, then a legal advisor to the West Bank military command, raised his hand to tell Sharon about an Ottoman concept known as "Mawat land." The Ottomans, who had controlled Palestine until World War I, had used the term to designate land far enough from any neighboring village that a crowing rooster perched on its edge could not be heard. Under Ottoman law, if such land was not cultivated for three years it was "mawat"—dead —and reverted to the empire. "With or without your rooster, be at my office at 8:00 in the morning," Sharon told Ramati, who was soon crisscrossing the West Bank in the cockpit of a helicopter, identifying tens of thousands of uninhabited acres that could be labeled "state land" and made available to settlers, notwithstanding the Geneva Convention's prohibition on moving civilians into occupied territory. In the years that followed, a string of new settlements was built on this territory, eventually prompting another challenge before the Israeli High Court. This time, the Court denied the challenge, ruling that settlement construction was permissible while Israel served as the temporary custodian of the territory. This provided a legal basis for land expropriation that has since enabled hundreds of thousands of Israelis to relocate to the West Bank.



Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 01, 2013, 09:32:09 PM
Israel's US Senate Lobby and Chuck Hagel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiXTyDnA2TI

Lee: Did you say that?

Hagel: Well I said it and I don't remember the context or when I said it

Lee: Do you believe today that Israel keeps Palestinians "caged up like animals."

Hagel: No. If I had an opportunity to edit that like many things...I'd like to go back and change the words and the meaning. No, I think it was the larger context-- I've said many many things over many years.-- the larger context, of frustration and what's happening, is not in Israel's interests, [we are trying] to find ways that we can help bring peace and security to Israel.  If I had a chance to go back and edit it I would. I regret I used those words.

Steve Walt who wrote the book The Israel Lobby

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/02/01/id_like_to_thank_the_senate_armed_services_committee

I want to thank the Emergency Committee for Israel, Sheldon Adelson, and the Senate Armed Service Committee for providing such a compelling vindication of our views.  As Rosie Gray amd Andrew Kaczynski of Buzzfeed noted, at yesterday's hearing on Chuck Hagel Israel was mentioned 166 times, and Iran (a problem closely linked to Israel) 144 times. Afghanistan was mentioned only 20 times, and the problem of suicides of U.S. troops only twice. Glad to see that those Senators have their priorities straight. No wonder Mark Twain referred to Congress as "the smallest minds and the selfishest souls and the cowardliest hearts that God makes."

I am sometimes asked if I have any regrets about publishing our book. As of today, my only regret is that it isn't being published now. After the humiliations that Obama has endured at the hands of the lobby and now the Hagel circus, we'd sell even more copies and we wouldn't face nearly as much ill-informed criticism.




Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 12, 2013, 04:55:34 PM
While I would be the 1st person to welcome good news on the job creation front, i'm sorry but this is very bad news for not only West Belfast, but for Ireland.

Caterpillar, Inc. makes huge profits annually from the sale of its earth–moving equipment around the globe. The Peoria, Illinois-based corporation is Israel's primary supplier of bulldozers—one of the most destructive weapons in Israel's arsenal. The Israeli government uses Caterpillar bulldozers in the perpetration of massive human rights abuses against the Palestinian people. Since 1967, over 7,000 home demolitions have occurred across the occupied territories, leaving some 50,000 Palestinians homeless. During this same period, bulldozers have razed vast swaths of Palestinian agricultural land, depriving their owners of food and livelihood.

For years, Palestinians have been calling for a boycott of the company, and just recently, one from Professor Richard Falk, the UN Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Also the Irish-based solidarity organisations Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Sadaka have also long been calling for that boycott.

How Paul Maskey the MP for the area can welcome this gross violator of human rights to Belfast is beyond me. Has he forgot about Rachel Corrie and how she was murdered in Gaza by a Caterpillar D9?

http://www.u.tv/News/200-Caterpillar-jobs-for-west-Belfast/6fa5a067-8748-47b6-bb79-e4c41d5a8288

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/25660
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 12, 2013, 06:39:03 PM
As far as I'm aware, there hasn't yet been any recorded cases of a generator built in N.I. being used to kill anyone. When there is, I'll back you all the way big lad.
I'm sure your concern for the palestinians would be a great comfort to anyone who could lose their jobs as a result of any ill conceived boycott.

Go you.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2013, 07:03:06 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 12, 2013, 06:39:03 PM
As far as I'm aware, there hasn't yet been any recorded cases of a generator built in N.I. being used to kill anyone. When there is, I'll back you all the way big lad.
I'm sure your concern for the palestinians would be a great comfort to anyone who could lose their jobs as a result of any ill conceived boycott.

Go you.
good point bdb. Israeli torture creates jobs. Home demolitions too . It is a no brainer . Such as yourself .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 12, 2013, 07:39:46 PM
Another one not affected by the loss of Caterpiller jobs, and so doesn't care about those that are. I'm all right Jack, so f**k you. When do we start targetting Caterpiller employees for assassination? After all, they are part of the Israeli war machine, aren't they. Those generators are vital to the zionist war effort. I know a couple of people who work for them, but they only go to the odd Antrim game, so can't be classed as true gaels.

Bravo. You're striking a blow for palestine. Whoop di do.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2013, 09:43:10 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 12, 2013, 07:39:46 PM
Another one not affected by the loss of Caterpiller jobs, and so doesn't care about those that are. I'm all right Jack, so f**k you. When do we start targetting Caterpiller employees for assassination? After all, they are part of the Israeli war machine, aren't they. Those generators are vital to the zionist war effort. I know a couple of people who work for them, but they only go to the odd Antrim game, so can't be classed as true gaels.

Bravo. You're striking a blow for palestine. Whoop di do.
Caterpillar's CSR is being destroyed in the West Bank. The company can survive without Zionism . Nobody  actually  needs a messianic jewish war machine.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 12, 2013, 09:50:32 PM
I wonder what side Paul Maskey would have been on in 1880 in Ballinrobe? Would he have ignored the Boycott then as well?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2013, 09:58:47 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 12, 2013, 09:50:32 PM
I wonder what side Paul Maskey would have been on in 1880 in Ballinrobe? Would he have ignored the Boycott then as well?
i was expecting to see  de beaver  on the aidan mcanespie thread justifying shoot to kill .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on February 12, 2013, 10:27:42 PM
Dixie, have you lost the plot. A bulldozer never killed anyone, Irish or otherwise. The driver did. If we follow that crazy logic should we boycott Michelin tyres or the suppliers of the yellow paint. A bulldozer or digger is not a war machine so you cannot apply the same reasoning as you do to tanks and fighter jets
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on February 12, 2013, 10:38:40 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 12, 2013, 09:50:32 PM
I wonder what side Paul Maskey would have been on in 1880 in Ballinrobe? Would he have ignored the Boycott then as well?

+1
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 13, 2013, 12:12:18 AM
Quote from: Itchy on February 12, 2013, 10:27:42 PM
Dixie, have you lost the plot. A bulldozer never killed anyone, Irish or otherwise. The driver did. If we follow that crazy logic should we boycott Michelin tyres or the suppliers of the yellow paint. A bulldozer or digger is not a war machine so you cannot apply the same reasoning as you do to tanks and fighter jets

Itchy, Caterpillar equipment is widely used by the IDF to demolish Palestinian homes. Since 1967 7,000 homes have been destroyed. Caterpillar are subject to a worldwide Boycott and many investment firms, individuals and church groups have dis invested in them. They know full well what their equipment is used for, yet they still supply the IDF. Much like CRH who supply the cement that is used in the construction of illegal settlements and the Seperation Wall. 

People can dress this news announcement up any way they like, but to welcome Caterpillar to West Belfast by Paul Maskey and his party is not only an insult to the Palestinians, but to Human Rights.

"In a news release emailed by the UN, Richard Falk accused the companies of profiting from the operation of Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

They "should be boycotted until they bring their operations into line with international human rights and humanitarian law and standards," he said.

Falk carries the title of UN Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territories."

http://www.examiner.com/article/un-rep-boycott-hewlett-packard-caterpillar-motorola
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 12:15:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 12, 2013, 09:58:47 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 12, 2013, 09:50:32 PM
I wonder what side Paul Maskey would have been on in 1880 in Ballinrobe? Would he have ignored the Boycott then as well?
i was expecting to see  de beaver  on the aidan mcanespie thread justifying shoot to kill .
why would I try to justify the shooting of an innocent man?

Weirdo
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 13, 2013, 12:49:03 AM
Rachel Corrie, moments before she was killed by a Caterpillar D9 in Gaza in 2003

(http://www.sott.net/image/image/s1/33642/full/_37464_Rachel_Corrie.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 13, 2013, 12:50:52 AM
Armour plated Caterpillar D9 in Palestine used for house demolishions

(http://bedfordprocurement.com/images/armored-caterpillar-d9r-bulldozer.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 07:27:28 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 13, 2013, 12:49:03 AM
Rachel Corrie, moments before she was killed by a Caterpillar D9 in Gaza in 2003

(http://www.sott.net/image/image/s1/33642/full/_37464_Rachel_Corrie.jpg)
The same Rachel corrie who deliberately  stood in front of said d9. Suicidal.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on February 13, 2013, 07:28:24 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 13, 2013, 12:49:03 AM
Rachel Corrie, moments before she was killed by a Caterpillar D9 in Gaza in 2003

(http://www.sott.net/image/image/s1/33642/full/_37464_Rachel_Corrie.jpg)

When someone is killed in a car crash to you blame the car manufacturer? For christ sake this is idiotic, the d9 doesn't turn itself on and drive into people does it?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: DrinkingHarp on February 13, 2013, 07:36:55 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 12, 2013, 04:55:34 PM
While I would be the 1st person to welcome good news on the job creation front, i'm sorry but this is very bad news for not only West Belfast, but for Ireland.

Caterpillar, Inc. makes huge profits annually from the sale of its earth–moving equipment around the globe. The Peoria, Illinois-based corporation is Israel's primary supplier of bulldozers—one of the most destructive weapons in Israel's arsenal. The Israeli government uses Caterpillar bulldozers in the perpetration of massive human rights abuses against the Palestinian people. Since 1967, over 7,000 home demolitions have occurred across the occupied territories, leaving some 50,000 Palestinians homeless. During this same period, bulldozers have razed vast swaths of Palestinian agricultural land, depriving their owners of food and livelihood.

For years, Palestinians have been calling for a boycott of the company, and just recently, one from Professor Richard Falk, the UN Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Also the Irish-based solidarity organisations Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Sadaka have also long been calling for that boycott.

How Paul Maskey the MP for the area can welcome this gross violator of human rights to Belfast is beyond me. Has he forgot about Rachel Corrie and how she was murdered in Gaza by a Caterpillar D9?

http://www.u.tv/News/200-Caterpillar-jobs-for-west-Belfast/6fa5a067-8748-47b6-bb79-e4c41d5a8288

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/25660

GHD,

There is reaching and then there is reaching, this is really reaching. Caterpillar DOES NOT sell their machines to the Israel Military the US government does. "This is how it works," corporate spokesman Jim Dugan said. "Caterpillar sells equipment to the U.S. government, which then transfers the equipment to the Israeli government, which then transfers it to the Israeli military. Israel is one of about 150 countries that take part in the program, which supports U.S. allies. For the D9s, the protective armor plating, the bullet resistant glass and other modifications take place after the machine has been transferred to the Israeli government by the U.S. government. These changes happen after the sale, not in our factories. We hope and wish for a peaceful resolution to the unrest in the Middle East, but that solution is a political matter to be worked out by the appropriate parties. Caterpillar does not and should not have a role in that political process."

Even if a boycott of CAT works do you not think Deere, JCB, Terex, Komatsu or any other 50 or so manufacturers would not pick up were CAT  left off?

How about going after companies from Ireland who sell direct to Israel or Vice Versa? Although that would really be a direct hit to the whole economy considering that In 1988 Israel exports to Ireland were valued at 23.5 million USD, while Irish exports to Israel were valued at 32.8 million USD. A decade later, Israeli exports to Ireland amounted to 196 million USD, while Irish exports amount to 230 Million USD. Today Irish exports are 344 million and Israeli exports are approaching 200 million USD.

Unfortunately I see no end to this conflict in our lifetime, this has been going on for over 2,000 years in one way or another in this region. The one way to end it would be through education and youth, young leaders coming up through both sides realizing working together would benefit both parties and the region.  Until the hatred that is being spewn by both sides subsides nothing will work.

On a personal note, I am disgusted by the way people attack each other on this board about this situation instead of offering substance either pro or anti Israel/Palestine. I do applaud GHD on his humanitarian acts of assistance.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 08:45:16 AM
Hamas Gov't Demolishes 'Illegal' Arab Homes in Gaza

The Hamas terrorist government has issued an order to demolish 75 homes belonging to PA Arabs in Gaza City. The UN has made no comment.


AAFont Size
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 2/13/2013, 10:21 AM


(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/Resizer.ashx/news/250/168/386302.jpg)

Demolition in Ulpana neighborhood

Israel news photo: Yishai Karov


The Hamas terrorist government has issued an order to demolish 75 "illegally" built homes belonging to Palestinian Authority Arabs in a Gaza City neighborhood. There has been no comment from the United Nations.

Members of the Abu Amrah family – affected by the order – protested the decision Tuesday in a demonstration in front of the offices of the Palestinian Legislative Council in Gaza City, the Bethlehem-based Ma'an news agency reported.

The houses, located in the al-Rimal neighborhood, are scheduled to be destroyed this morning (Wednesday).

Hamas said the houses were being demolished because they were "illegally built on public lands," Ma'an reported. The families claimed that alternative sites suggested by the PLC were remote areas with no services, a claim Hamas denied.

Gaza "land department" spokeswoman Amal Shamali told Ma'an that her department contacted family leaders from the Abu Amrah clan several months ago and suggested they move to a neighborhood in Rafah, in southern Gaza, or to a housing project in the north. Since they refused to move to the north, the government decided to move the families to Rafah.

The Hamas government apparently demolished another group of homes owned by the same clan several months ago, offering instead to move them to an area in northern Gaza – at a price. The families were given the option to pay in installments. Some agreed, and others did not.

"We are refugees and have been living in this area of tens of years," family spokesperson Abu Salah Abu Amra said.

A second targeted resident, Hazim Abu Hmeid, worried about his children and appealed to Ramallah-based Fatah PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, as well as Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh.

"When our children return from school [today] they will not know where to go because by the time they arrive, their houses will have disappeared," Hmeid said. "The only place they will have is the street in this cold winter time."

Numerous demolitions of Jewish homes in Judea and Samaria have been carried out over the past decade, even as the number of illegally built Arab homes in those regions rises exponentially, without comment or consequence. 
.............................................................................

Oh my giddy aunt. Ya couldn't make it up, could ya.  ;D

GHD, what make of digger is that in the picture? Isn't that a Caterpiller? I see the palestinians are taking a lead in their boycott of zionist war machines.

I hope for your sake that the photo is just some random one taken ages ago, otherwise your pontificating is going to look rather hollow. I'll have a wee look and see if I can verify it for you.  ;)



***EDIT**** Just discovered that the photo in question is from another demolition, not the one reported. Phew, that was close.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 08:57:43 AM
Hamas demolishes homes, world media yawns

July 16 2012

From Tom Gross' dispatch:
Ma'an and other Palestinian news agencies report that the Hamas government in Gaza has renewed its policy of demolishing the homes of Palestinian families in order to seize land for government use. 120 families are to lose their homes in the latest round of demolitions – a far greater number than the number of illegally built Palestinian homes Israel has demolished in recent years – and unlike Israeli authorities, Hamas doesn't even claim these homes were built illegally or with dangerous structures. Yet western media and human rights groups have been virtually silent about these destructions of Palestinian homes by Hamas.

Abu Al-Abed Abu Omra, whose house is threatened with demolition, told Ma'an that Hamas security police arrived late on a Saturday night and told residents to evacuate their homes in order to facilitate the demolition.

He said that more than 120 families living in a 15-dunams area near Gaza's Al-Azhar University are under threat, though they have been living there since 1948.
Tom is apparently the only non-'Palestinian' source reporting the story. I'm shocked. Just shocked.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/hamas-demolishes-homes-world-media.html (http://israelmatzav.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/hamas-demolishes-homes-world-media.html)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 09:09:30 AM

Hamas Demolishes Palestinian Homes

by Mel Frykberg, May 26, 2010

Print This | Share This


RAMALLAH – On Sunday approximately 150 Palestinians from 20 families were driven out of their homes in Rafah, in the southern Gaza strip, by heavily armed police and soldiers who menaced them with clubs.

The difference this time was that it was not the Israeli Defense Forces carrying out evictions and demolitions but Hamas security forces, including policewomen with their faces veiled.

Reporters trying to cover the event were barred by Hamas police. I wonder why
Many of those expelled had already lost their homes and been forced into the streets when Israel carried out its brutal military assault over the coastal territory, which deliberately targeted Gaza's infrastructure, during Operation Cast Lead at the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009.

Some of the homes destroyed on Sunday were temporary shacks built hastily after the Israeli assault. Other homes were concrete structures built prior to Israel's crippling blockade, imposed on Gaza after Hamas took control in June 2007, which has prevented most reconstruction material from entering the territory.

The Hamas authorities argue that the homes were built on government land and without permission. Residents claimed they had been sold permits by a local landowner.

This is an explanation West Bankers regularly hear from the Israelis before Palestinian homes and buildings in the West Bank are destroyed, although the territory is illegally occupied by Israel whereas Hamas is a democratically elected government and the Gaza Strip is Palestinian land.

Nevertheless, the harshness of the actions under the current conditions provoked anger from Gazans and condemnation from human rights organizations.

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza expressed "its grave concern over these demolitions, which constitute a violation of civilians' rights to adequate housing. These violations may affect an additional 180 houses in Rafah in the future."

http://original.antiwar.com/frykberg/2010/05/25/hamas-demolishes-palestinian-homes/ (http://original.antiwar.com/frykberg/2010/05/25/hamas-demolishes-palestinian-homes/)

Where's the indignant condemnation of these atrocities GHD? These are not random acts, they are systematic attacks on the very people they purport to represent.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 09:23:49 AM

Gov't Forces Destroying Caravan Homes at Ma'ale Rehavam

Government security forces arrived Wednesday morning in Gush Etzion to tear down caravan homes at Ma'ale Rehavam.


AAFont Size
By Arutz Sheva staff
First Publish: 2/13/2013, 11:14 AM




Police at a demolition

Flash 90


Government security personnel arrived Wednesday morning in Gush Etzion to tear down caravan homes at Ma'ale Rehavam, a small town located off Route 3698 near Highway 60.

Ma'ale Rehavam was founded in 2001 in reaction to the assassination of former Tourism Minister Rehavam "Gandhi" Ze'evi, an ardent supporter of Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria. The residents pride themselves maintaining the community on the ecovillage model, focusing their efforts on cultivating olive and almond groves, a muscat grape vineyard, and an orchard growing thirty-five different fruit varieties.

Roads leading to the area, near Kfar Eldad, were sealed off to prevent anyone from reaching the site and interfering with the demolitions, including neighboring residents.

Forces included hundreds of security personnel, five bulldozers and fifty porters, according to a local source at the scene who spoke with Arutz Sheva on condition of anonymity.

The alleged targets of the police and IDF soldiers who were at the scene are apparently six caravan homes that allegedly were built outside the official community boundaries, the source said.

Gush Etzion Regional Council head David Perl appealed to Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to stop the destruction of the homes, saying in a statement the decision was made "for no reason or benefit."

"The Levy report, which the government of Israel commissioned, determined that there is no place for the demolition of unorganized communities and that other solutions within the rules of law and justice can be found," Perl pointed out.

"The government must immediately confirm the report so that we can stop watching the injustice and harm carried out towards the settlers and pioneers, as is occurring this morning in Ma'ale Rehavam," he said.

"The Gush Etzion Council will provide all the necessary assistance to help affected residents deal with the unnecessary and harsh destruction," Perl vowed.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165193 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165193)

Good to see Israel are acting on illegal building sites in Judea and Samaria. I just hope they didn't use any of those nasty old D9s, otherwise GHD will have a fit.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Harold Disgracey on February 13, 2013, 12:37:27 PM
Israel's 'Prisoner X' was Australian Mossad agent, documentary claims
Israel has never acknowledged prisoner's existence and has gone to extraordinary lengths to stifle media coverage of case

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/12/israel-prisoner-x-australian-mossad-agent

Like the fictional Man in the Iron Mask, Israel's infamous "Prisoner X" was allegedly held in solitary confinement in conditions of such strict secrecy that even his own jailers were told neither his name nor the crime he had allegedly committed.

The man's identity became the subject of intense speculation when he was reportedly found hanged in his cell in 2010, but the prisoner's existence has never been officially acknowledged by Israel's government, which has gone to extraordinary lengths to stifle media coverage of the case. Now, however, new evidence has been uncovered by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation that strongly suggests Prisoner X was an Australian citizen, Ben Zygier, whom it described a Mossad agent.

Although there has been no intimation of the accusations against Zygier, commentators have suggested it could only suggest the most serious kind of security case, perhaps involving treason.

In the immediate aftermath of ABC's claims, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that the Israeli prime minister's office had called "an emergency meeting of the Editors Committee ... to ask its members to co-operate with the government and withhold publication of information pertaining to an incident that is very embarrassing to a certain government agency".

Later in the day the gagging orders were explicitly linked to the claims about the dead Australian by several Israeli MPs who also raised questions about the affair during a debate in the Knesset.

Asked by an Arab MP about "reports [of the suicide of] an Australian citizen who was in Israeli custody under a different identity", the justice minister, Yaakov Ne'eman, replied: "I cannot answer these questions because the matter does not fall under the authority of the justice minister. But there is no doubt that if true, the matter must be looked into."

A second MP, Dov Henin, asked: "Are there people in prisons whose incarceration is kept secret? What are the supervision mechanisms on this kind of imprisonment? What are the possibilities for parliamentary supervision on such incarcerations? How can the public be critical in this situation?"

A new documentary screened this week for ABC's Foreign Correspondent programme claims Zygier used the name Ben Alon or Ben Allen after moving to Israel. He was secretly imprisoned in Ayalon prison in Ramla in the wing built to accommodate Yigal Amir, the assassin of the Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin, ABC reported.

The 34-year-old was married to an Israeli woman and was the father of two young children. He had reportedly spent a number of months in the cell before his death.

Zygier's father Geoffrey, a prominent leader of the Melbourne Jewish community, apparently refused to speak to the programme makers.

The only comparable case that has come to light was Israel's secret imprisonment for more than 10 years of the KGB spy Marcus Klingberg after he was tried under a false identity.

Australia's department of foreign affairs and trade (Dfat) on Wednesday launched a review into how its diplomats handled the case.

The review, to be conducted by the department's secretary, Peter Varghese, was announced after it became known that certain department officers had been made aware in 2010 that Zygier was being held in jail in Israel but did not pass the information on.

"Dfat had [originally] advised that it was unaware of Mr Allen's detention in Israel," a department spokesman said. "Dfat has now advised that some officers of the department were made aware of Mr Allen's detention at the time in 2010 by another Australian agency."

Earlier the foreign minister, Bob Carr, had said consul officials were not aware of the man's circumstances until his parents asked for help in bringing his body back to Australia. Under normal circumstances foreign embassies are advised if one of their nationals is being held in prison.

The case of Prisoner X first came to international attention in a flurry of stories in 2010. Coverage talked about the existence of an unidentified man being held in conditions of absolute secrecy for an undisclosed crime, which prompted a media guessing-game over his identity, with some speculating he was an Iranian general.

According to accounts at the time, even his guards were not aware of the prisoner's identity or the crime he had allegedly committed.

Debate over the existence of Prisoner X was shortlived, however, with the story disappearing from the Haaretz website.

Speculation that the Israeli government had imposed a media blackout prompted Dan Yakir, the chief legal counsel with the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, to write to the country's attorney general and demand that the "blackout be eliminated".

On Monday Haaretz printed a heavily pixellated image of what it said was the original document enforcing a reporting ban.

The existence of the blackout appeared to be confirmed by the call for a reporting ban in the immediate aftermath of the Australian report.

According to ABC, circumstantial evidence for its identification of Zygier was provided by the repatriation of his body to Melbourne from Tel Aviv a week after Prisoner X was allegedly found hanged in his cell.

The programme claimed that Zygier had a second passport in the name of Ben Allen at the time of the repatriation of his body.

Commenting on ABC's disclosures, the Australian foreign minister, Bob Carr, said he was concerned by the claims. "Those allegations certainly do trouble me," he said.

"It's never been raised with me. I'm not reluctant to seek an explanation from the Israeli government about what happened to Mr Allen and about what their view of it is. The difficulty is I'm advised we've had no contact with his family [and] there's been no request for consular assistance during the period it's alleged he was in prison.

"Even if Prisoner X has now been identified, his crime remains a mystery although it has been widely speculated that it would have involved treachery to warrant such extreme measures."

Details of one of two gagging orders acquired by the Israeli government have been disclosed to the Guardian .

Israel first sought to prevent reporting of the case in an injunction it sought in March 2010. A second "clarifying order" was issued by Judge Hila Gerstel of the central district court, making clear that the reporting ban referred to all Israeli media and preventing any discussion of the man who had been referred to variously as "Prisoner X", "Mr X" or "cell 15 in Ayalon prison".

The court's involvement on two different occasions suggests some kind of judicial oversight of the case, but neither the man's identity nor the charges he was facing were made clear.

Bill van Esveld, a researcher for Human Rights Watch, said the case raised serious questions about fundamental prisoners' rights including lack of due process, what information was given to the man's family and rights of consular access under international treaty obligations.

"We only know the absolute bare bones of this case. We know that there was some kind of gagging order and it would be almost unheard of to involve a judge to silence a story that had no basis in truth.

"The main concern is over the fact that a person cannot simply be disappeared. That is against the norms of international law. That person's family needs to know what has happened to them. They have to be able to have access to a defence attorney and their government needs to be informed to permit consular access."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 13, 2013, 09:56:40 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 07:27:28 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 13, 2013, 12:49:03 AM
Rachel Corrie, moments before she was killed by a Caterpillar D9 in Gaza in 2003

(http://www.sott.net/image/image/s1/33642/full/_37464_Rachel_Corrie.jpg)
The same Rachel corrie who deliberately  stood in front of said d9. Suicidal.
. So under your ' eye for an eye' logic the guy who stood in front of the column of tanks in Tiananmen Square during the 1989 pro democracy demonstrations was fair game and should have been run over
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on February 13, 2013, 10:15:05 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 08:45:16 AM
The Hamas terrorist government
I stopped reading at that bit.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 13, 2013, 10:23:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 07:27:28 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 13, 2013, 12:49:03 AM
Rachel Corrie, moments before she was killed by a Caterpillar D9 in Gaza in 2003

(http://www.sott.net/image/image/s1/33642/full/_37464_Rachel_Corrie.jpg)
The same Rachel corrie who deliberately  stood in front of said d9. Suicidal.
poor form even for you . They also killed Tom Hurndall.
Gaza is where the fantasy of zionism died . Realpolitik and Jewish morality never sat  well together.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 10:47:17 PM
I take it no one is going to condemn Hamas for the demolitions. Strange that. I thought all you upstanding humanitarians would be falling over each other in your vitriol towards these gross human rights violations. Anyone would think you were a tad hypocritical.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 15, 2013, 01:34:54 PM
(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Hansen_zps7920d90d.jpg)


A photograph of two dead children, who were killed in an Israeli missile strike near Gaza City, won the top World Press Photo prize on Friday for Swedish photographer Paul Hansen of newspaper Dagens Nyheter.

The photograph shows a group of men bearing the bodies of two-year-old Suhaib Hijazi and her brother Muhammad, 3, as they were taken to the mosque for a burial ceremony. Their parents were killed in the same strike.

"The strength of the picture lies in the way it contrasts the anger and sorrow of the adults with the innocence of the children," Mayu Mohanna, a member of the jury, said of the photograph which was named World Press Photo of the Year 2012.

Ammar Awad of Reuters received an honorable mention in the General News single category for his photograph "Israeli Border Police Pepper spray Palestinian Protester".

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=565531
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 15, 2013, 02:07:51 PM
No condemnation, I didn't think so. You'd rather shoot videos of yourself giving aid to hamas that was meant for the needy. Pathetic. (Before you attack me for saying it, watch the video posted that shows hamas members taking their pick of the goodies before even one civilian gets a chance, with not a word from GHD to try to stop them)

As harrowing as that photo may be, the next time people see pictures of dead kids, they should wait until they find out what actually happened. Even photos presented by UN officials as evidence of Israeli "atrocities" sometimes turn out to be anything but.



Khulood Badawi Finally Fired from UN
February 7, 2013 11:16by Alex Margolin

Nearly a full year after HonestReporting exposed False Photo Tweeter Khulood Badawi as a staff member of the Jerusalem branch of the UN Office of Coordinated Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), the UN has concluded its lengthy investigation and removed Badawi from its staff.

Badawi gained attention last March during an uptick in violence between Israel and Hamas that lasted several days. Badawi tweeted a photo of a father carrying a bleeding girl, strongly suggesting that the girl was a victim of an Israeli airstrike that day. The photo, however, was taken in 2006 and had no connection to Israel.

After HonestReporting's expose started to appear in the press and our petition calling for Badawi's dismissal began gaining momentum (ultimately reaching 15,000 names), Israel's Ambassador the UN, Ron Prosor took up the issue, demanding the UN immediately remove Badawi from her post.

The UN responded by launching an investigation into the matter – and sending Badawi on an extended vacation. This week, however, the Jerusalem Post reported that the UN sent out an email announcing that following the investigation, the UN has opted not to renew Badawi's contract.

The saga of Khulood Badawi proves that grassroots efforts can be successful, even if it takes a year for a final resolution. Even the mighty UN can be moved to action if we maintain our solidarity in our demand for justice.


http://honestreporting.com/khalood-badawi-finally-fired-from-un/ (http://honestreporting.com/khalood-badawi-finally-fired-from-un/)

Is it any wonder Israelis have no confidence in the UN, when their staff lie about the truth of what is happening on the ground.

I've plenty more examples of photo shopped, edited and completely non event photos used by palestinians as "evidence" of Israeli "atrocities", that are simply untrue.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on February 15, 2013, 04:58:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 13, 2013, 10:23:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 13, 2013, 07:27:28 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 13, 2013, 12:49:03 AM
Rachel Corrie, moments before she was killed by a Caterpillar D9 in Gaza in 2003

(http://www.sott.net/image/image/s1/33642/full/_37464_Rachel_Corrie.jpg)
The same Rachel corrie who deliberately  stood in front of said d9. Suicidal.
poor form even for you . They also killed Tom Hurndall.
Gaza is where the fantasy of zionism died . Realpolitik and Jewish morality never sat  well together.

It's amazing how few people in the US have heard about this case.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 15, 2013, 05:28:30 PM
It's amazing just how many people believe that the D9 chased her and killed her, rather than the fact that she ran in front of it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyssam5 on February 15, 2013, 06:18:24 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 15, 2013, 05:28:30 PM
It's amazing just how many people believe that the D9 chased her and killed her, rather than the fact that she ran in front of it.

I wasn't there, were you? Either way not behavior expected from a country that likes to present itself as civilized. They don't have spotters in the Israeli army, or radios?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 15, 2013, 06:30:55 PM
I've seen the video, haven't you?
When someone deliberately runs in front of you, knowing you have limited visability, they are putting themselves in danger.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 15, 2013, 06:49:34 PM
So what actually happened the day Rachel Corrie died? Here's the judge's determination of the facts:

e. I hereby determine that, on the day of the incident, the two bulldozers and the armored personnel carrier were occupied with the clear military operational task of clearing the land in a dangerous area which posed a significant risk. The force's action was designed to prevent acts of terror and hostility, i.e. to eliminate the danger of terrorists hiding between the creases of land and in the brush, and to expose explosive devices hidden therein, both of which were intended to kill IDF soldiers. During each act of exposure, the lives of the IDF fighters were at risk from Palestinians terrorists. As aforementioned, less than an hour before the incident that is the focus of this lawsuit, a live hand-grenade was thrown at the IDF force.

....

f. On March 16, 2003, the decedent and her fellow ISM activists arrived at the location where the IDF force was working to clear the land. They did so, they claim, in order to prevent the IDF force from demolishing Palestinian houses. They did so illegally and in contradiction of the military directive declaring the area a "closed military area". They held signs, stood in front of the bulldozers and did not allow them to carry out their mission. The IDF soldiers informed the activists that they had to distance themselves from the area, threw stun grenades towards them, fired warning shots towards them and used methods to disperse demonstrations. All without avail.

The IDF force was very careful not to harm the Organization's activists. Because of the activists' interference, the force repeatedly relocated to continue carrying out their mission.

g. Based on the evidence presented to me, including the testimony of the expert for the prosecution, Mr. Osben, I hereby determine that at approximately 17:00, the decedent stood roughly 15 to 20 meters from the relevant bulldozer and knelt down. The bulldozer to which I refer was a large, clumsy and shielded vehicle of the DR9 model. The field of view the bulldozer's operator had inside the bulldozer was limited. At a certain point, the bulldozer turned and moved toward the decedent. The bulldozer pushed a tall pile of dirt. With regard to the field of view that the bulldozer's operator had, the decedent was in the "blind spot". The decedent was behind the bulldozer's blade and behind a pile of dirt and therefore the bulldozer's operator could not have seen her.

The bulldozer moved very slowly, at a speed of one kilometer per hour.

When the decedent saw the pile of dirt moving towards her, she did not move, as any reasonable person would have. She began to climb the pile of dirt. Therefore, both because the pile of dirt continued to move as a result of the pushing of the bulldozer, and because the dirt was loose, the decedent was trapped in the pile of dirt and fell.

At this stage, the decedent's legs were buried in the pile of dirt, and when her colleagues saw from where they stood that the decedent was trapped in the pile of dirt, they ran towards the bulldozer and gestured towards its operator and yelled at him to stop. By the time the bulldozer's operator and his commander noticed the decedent's colleagues and stopped the bulldozer, a significant portion of the decedent's body was already covered in dirt.

The decedent's entire body was not covered in dirt. In fact, when the bulldozer backed up, the decedent's body was seen to free itself from the pile of dirt and the decedent was still alive.

The decedent was evacuated to the hospital and after 20 minutes, her death was declared.

I hereby determine unequivocally that there is no foundation to the plaintiffs' claim that the bulldozer struck the decedent intentionally. This was a very unfortunate accident and was not intentional. No one wished to harm the decedent. I was convinced that the bulldozer's operator would not have continued to work if he had seen the decedent standing in front of the bulldozer, as he and his colleagues acted in similar circumstances earlier that day, when they moved from location to location because of the disturbances caused by the members of the Organization.

h. Because I find, as aforementioned, that the decedent was accidentally killed in the framework of a "war-related activity" as defined in The Civil Wrongs Ordinance, and in light of the instructions laid out in Article 5 of the aforementioned ordinance, the State bears no responsibility for the damages inflicted on the plaintiffs resulting from a war-related action.

http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/so-how-exactly-did-rachel-corrie-die/2012/08/29/ (http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/so-how-exactly-did-rachel-corrie-die/2012/08/29/)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 15, 2013, 06:53:55 PM
Someone asked earlier on this thread if you we're an undercover Hammas agent. I firmly believe that to be so. I'd be pretty sure that your rants have not converted a single person to support your cause but they will by their very nature have helped the Palestinians. My advice to you is to quit while you're still behind
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 15, 2013, 08:14:53 PM
Coming from an intellectual heavyweight such as yourself, I'll take that as a compliment.  ;)

You boys need to make your minds up. Am I an MI5, Mossad, Loyalist, Israeli Embassy mole or just someone who has an interest in Israeli affairs?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 15, 2013, 08:19:39 PM
When you resort to making personal comments, and in particular personal comments about something you know nothing about you lose the argument.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 15, 2013, 08:33:59 PM
That last load of bdb shite came from a site called jewishpress.com. Judaism is going to sustain serious pr damage when zionism collapses.  There aren't enough decent jews able to stand up to the thugs who run israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 16, 2013, 12:11:32 PM
(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Housedemolition_zps569fab11.jpg)

Snapshot: Home from (demolished) home

It is neither Isaac nor Samson nor Ashurbanipal who is seen in this AP picture; it is a Palestinian boy crying out to the heavens.

One hand holds a construction rod that protrudes from a destroyed wall, the other clutches the wooden leg of an overturned piece of red furniture. Amid thickly woven textiles and curved table legs that thrust skyward, this boy binds himself to the ruins. Odd ruins they are, a pile of objects, among them a light brown towel, on the right on the low wall, which still hangs there, tied to a clothes dryer that is shut up like a clam. Embedded within this image, shot by AP photographer Bernat Armangue on February 5 in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Beit Hanina, is every representation of the bound Isaac: not so much tied up ahead of sacrifice as lying willingly in wait. And it also contains Samson, bringing down the pillars and going to his death with the Philistines; and "The Destroyed Room," Jeff Wall's important photograph from 1978, itself based on an agitated painting done in1827 by Delacroix, "The Death of Sardanapalus," depicting the ruins of the palace at Nineveh and King Sardanapalus ‏(Ashurbanipal‏) observing the catastrophe.

But it's neither Isaac nor Samson nor Ashurbanipal who is seen here; it is a boy crying out to the heavens. Here is the point at which the devastation and the boy merge and become one. It is the moment when he lies as in a hammock, connecting with and attached to the components of his house, which, when they stood in their proper places that morning, made a "home." Now, dislodged from their natural places, they are fragments of memory, remains. This is the moment when it dawns on him that he will not be able to reassemble what has been lost. He grasps the possibility of entropy. He is very young − too young − and he is grief-stricken.

Possibly his parents knew that the Jerusalem Municipality would demolish their house that morning, after he went off to school, but nevertheless allowed him to see what he saw on his return. Should a parent whose home has been burned or destroyed by force of nature or, worse, by force of government, show or not show his child what happened to his home? Allow him to see that his bed no longer exists? That the places where he kept the card with the picture of his favorite soccer player and the fossil he found and the candy he hid, no longer exist? How, exactly, does one go about understanding the absence of a house? People, after all, can't abide losing even one small item of their property. Think about losing your keys, having your phone taken from you. Think about having it all taken away.

According to the municipality, the boy's home was built without permits − as though there is nothing easier for East Jerusalem Palestinians than to obtain building permits. It was said to be without foundations − as though it were impossible to order its reinforcement or offer a permit in return for a plan of safe construction. What can the boy do − but cry? A thick, gray square mattress lies below the mattress of gray sky above the ruins of the house in an open area of East Jerusalem. Some of the family's possessions reman intact and the photograph − an extraordinarily effective news shot − leads the eye from one object to the next, from picture frames to the large round food tray next to the towel, and from the palace at Nineveh to Wall's destroyed room, in which the mattress is ripped, slashed, split and gutted, and to the face of this boy, his head arched back and his mouth agape.

But in this news image − its composition and perspective so proportional and so unrelated to palaces − the mattress remains whole, vast and pristine, and the carpets are rolled up neatly. Why are they rolled up? When were they rolled up? One to the right of the large mattress; the other, a hollow cylinder above the boy's head, under the overturned table. Next to the three-legged object that points to the sky is a red armchair, and next to it, to the right, lies a folded wooden ladder over a red blanket.

And precisely because it will perhaps be possible to place the ladder elsewhere, and precisely because the house was not gutted − rather, the belongings of the 33 people who lived in it were piled up − and precisely because it might be possible to salvage something, it is heartbreaking to look at the boy from East Jerusalem. For, in his striped sweatshirt and matching striped shoelaces, as he caresses the rough, perforated construction grating, and as he cries, this boy understands deeply and for all time, in the most melancholy way, the essence of where he is and the essence of an unforgivable act.


http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/tal-niv/snapshot-home-from-demolished-home.premium-1.503545
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 16, 2013, 12:43:49 PM
HYPOCRITE

Why won't you condemn the destruction of palestinian homes by your mates in Hamas? Demolished for the exact same reason Israel demolishes homes built without permits.


Op-Ed: FIFA's Double-Standard Against Israel


Published: Friday, February 15, 2013 10:59 AM

Two incidents of racism, one by a small group of fans and one an official position - and who gets the negative publicity, do you think? and why?




Ronn Torossian, CEO of 5WPR
The author is CEO of 5WPR, 1 of the 25 largest PR Agencies in the US.
► More from this writer





Ze’ev Jabotinsky said, “It is not the anti-Semitism of men; it is, above all, the anti-Semitism of things, the inherent xenophobia of the body social or the body economic under which we suffer.”

And indeed today, 75 years after Jabotinsky uttered those words in Europe, they still ring true.

Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA), the media and so many others simply employ an anti-Semitic double standard.

It could be funny if it wasn’t sickening. Just days after a slew of worldwide media coverage about racism in Israeli soccer surrounding the new Muslim players at Betar Jerusalem, there’s been a state sponsored act of racism in the Middle East and it has barely received any media coverage.

A simple review of the facts: A handful of fans of the only Israeli soccer team which didn’t have a Muslim player protested and yelled about the new Muslim players as the media reported these activities as racist. The highest echelons of the Israeli government made clear these were unsanctioned acts. The Mayor of Jerusalem, Nir Barkat ,said police would take "a heavy hand to put an end to this issue” and indeed multiple fans have been arrested.

None other than Prime Minister Netanyahu said: “We must not tolerate racism of this kind. The Jewish people specifically, who suffered boycotts and ostracism, must serve as a light unto the nations."

These are isolated incidents which have been absurdly blown out of proportion. The New York Times ran two major stories on this issue – and countless other media outlets used it as their latest opportunity to bash Israel.

Meanwhile, this week there’s a deafening silence - excepting  Arutz Sheva -  as Israeli soccer star Itay Schechter, who plays for Swansea City, wasn’t allowed entry to Dubai for a training session as the United Arab Emirates does not recognize the state of Israel’s right to exist. Were he to enter the country, he would have been arrested and deported.

The UAE government is silent and so too is the media.

And as the media ignores the issue, so too does the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA), the International governing body of soccer. Reviewing FIFA’s website, one can read:

"FIFA recognizes its responsibility to lead the way in abolishing all forms of discrimination in football."

Article 3 of the FIFA Statutes states: “Discrimination of any kind against a country, private person or group of people on account of ethnic origin, gender, language, religion, politics or any other reason is strictly prohibited and punishable by suspension or expulsion.”

Of course, it’s a complete farce, as Qatar will host the 2022 World Cup where Israelis also aren’t permitted to enter.

Meanwhile, Israeli media reported that the Israel Football Association (IFA) said FIFA had requested clarification following racist chanting by fans at a league fixture last month against the Chechen players. FIFA has been silent on the state-sanctioned racist Arab governments – there’s no need for them to comment if indeed they honored what they claim it’s a black and white case.

As CEO of a leading PR Firm, it’s quite clear tto me that this is a simple double standard. Since this is a clear case of discrimination, perhaps an “impartial” third-party like the United Nations can help Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12881 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12881)

If this was any other soccer player, from any other nation, then there would be uproar. If UAE wre to ban an Irishman from playing in a friendly in their country for no other reason than his religion, there would be all sorts of sanctions handed out by FIFA. But because it's only a jew, who cares?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 16, 2013, 05:59:43 PM
Netanyahu says Jewish people should serve as a light unto the nations. Israel is doing a great job. Torture, ethnic cleansing, death squads. But is Israel really a Jewish country?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 16, 2013, 06:15:20 PM
All I see is a load of the usual old bullshit rhetoric, but still no condemnation.

Maybe GHD can organise a convoy to bring much needed tents to the poor people made homeless by his mates in Hamas.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 17, 2013, 06:03:41 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 16, 2013, 06:15:20 PM
All I see is a load of the usual old bullshit rhetoric, but still no condemnation.

Maybe GHD can organise a convoy to bring much needed tents to the poor people made homeless by his mates in Hamas.
Maybe nobody is listening to you any more , BDB.
Why don't you tell us how Israel is a light unto the nations ?
And what is it that makes Jews in Israel so special? 


I wish I was special

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkzRNyygfk
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 17, 2013, 07:44:06 PM
Oh, you're special alright.  :P
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 17, 2013, 08:19:34 PM
Former US diplomat Chas Freeman on the problem that is Israel

http://www.mepc.org/hill-forums/us-grand-strategy-middle-east-0?transcript

"There has been no American-led peace process worthy of the name for nearly two decades. There is no prospect of such a process resuming. No one in the international community now accepts the pretense of a "peace process" as an excuse for American protection of Israel. Eleven years on, the Arab and Islamic peace offer has exceeded its shelf life. On the Israel-Palestine issue, American diplomacy has been running on fumes for some time. It is now totally out of gas and universally perceived to be going nowhere.

Sadly, barrng fundamental changes in Israeli politics, policies, and behavior, the longstanding American strategic objective of achieving acceptance for the state of Israel to stabilize the region where British colonialism and Jewish nationalism implanted it is now infeasible

In practice, the United States has abandoned the effort. U.S. policy currently consists of ad hoc actions to fortify Israel against Palestinian resistance and military threats from its neighbors, while shielding it from increasingly adverse international reaction to its worsening deportment. In essence, the United States now has no objective with respect to Israel beyond sheltering it from the need to deal with the unpalatable realities its own choices have created.

Israel has had more than forty-five years to trade land for peace, implementing its Camp David commitments and complying with international law. It has consistently demonstrated that it craves land more than peace, international reputation, good will, or legitimacy. As a result, Israel remains isolated from its neighbors, with no prospect of reversing this. It is now rapidly forfeiting international acceptability. There is nothing the United States can do to cure either situation despite the adverse consequences of both for American standing in the region and the world.

For a considerable time to come, Israel can rely on its US-provided "qualitative edge" to sustain its military hegemony over others in its region. But, as the "crusader states" established and sustained by previous Western interventions in the region illustrate, such supremacy – especially when dependent on external support – is inevitably ephemeral – and those who live exclusively by the sword are more likely than others to perish by it. Meanwhile, as the struggle for Palestinian Arab rights becomes a struggle for human and civil rights within the single sovereignty that Israel has de facto imposed on Palestine, Israel's internal evolution is rapidly alienating Jews of conscience both there and abroad. Israelis do not have to live in Palestine; they can and do increasingly withdraw from it to live in diaspora. Jews outside contemporary Israel are coming to see it less as a sanctuary or guarantor of Jewish security and well-being than as a menace to both.

The United States has made an enormous commitment to the success of the Jewish state. Yet it has no strategy to cope with the tragic existential challenges Zionist hubris and overweening territorial ambition have now forged for Israel. The hammerlock the Israeli right has on American discourse about the Middle East assures that, despite the huge U.S. political and economic investment in Israel, Washington will not discuss or develop effective policy options for sustaining the Jewish state over the long term. The outlook is therefore for continuing deterioration in Israel's international moral standing and the concomitant isolation of the United States in the region and around the globe."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 18, 2013, 03:39:07 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 17, 2013, 08:19:34 PM
Former US diplomat Chas Freeman on the problem that is Israel

http://www.mepc.org/hill-forums/us-grand-strategy-middle-east-0?transcript

"There has been no American-led peace process worthy of the name for nearly two decades. There is no prospect of such a process resuming. No one in the international community now accepts the pretense of a "peace process" as an excuse for American protection of Israel. Eleven years on, the Arab and Islamic peace offer has exceeded its shelf life. On the Israel-Palestine issue, American diplomacy has been running on fumes for some time. It is now totally out of gas and universally perceived to be going nowhere.

Sadly, barrng fundamental changes in Israeli politics, policies, and behavior, the longstanding American strategic objective of achieving acceptance for the state of Israel to stabilize the region where British colonialism and Jewish nationalism implanted it is now infeasible

In practice, the United States has abandoned the effort. U.S. policy currently consists of ad hoc actions to fortify Israel against Palestinian resistance and military threats from its neighbors, while shielding it from increasingly adverse international reaction to its worsening deportment. In essence, the United States now has no objective with respect to Israel beyond sheltering it from the need to deal with the unpalatable realities its own choices have created.

Israel has had more than forty-five years to trade land for peace, implementing its Camp David commitments and complying with international law. It has consistently demonstrated that it craves land more than peace, international reputation, good will, or legitimacy. As a result, Israel remains isolated from its neighbors, with no prospect of reversing this. It is now rapidly forfeiting international acceptability. There is nothing the United States can do to cure either situation despite the adverse consequences of both for American standing in the region and the world.

For a considerable time to come, Israel can rely on its US-provided "qualitative edge" to sustain its military hegemony over others in its region. But, as the "crusader states" established and sustained by previous Western interventions in the region illustrate, such supremacy – especially when dependent on external support – is inevitably ephemeral – and those who live exclusively by the sword are more likely than others to perish by it. Meanwhile, as the struggle for Palestinian Arab rights becomes a struggle for human and civil rights within the single sovereignty that Israel has de facto imposed on Palestine, Israel's internal evolution is rapidly alienating Jews of conscience both there and abroad. Israelis do not have to live in Palestine; they can and do increasingly withdraw from it to live in diaspora. Jews outside contemporary Israel are coming to see it less as a sanctuary or guarantor of Jewish security and well-being than as a menace to both.

The United States has made an enormous commitment to the success of the Jewish state. Yet it has no strategy to cope with the tragic existential challenges Zionist hubris and overweening territorial ambition have now forged for Israel. The hammerlock the Israeli right has on American discourse about the Middle East assures that, despite the huge U.S. political and economic investment in Israel, Washington will not discuss or develop effective policy options for sustaining the Jewish state over the long term. The outlook is therefore for continuing deterioration in Israel's international moral standing and the concomitant isolation of the United States in the region and around the globe."

Without even getting into the fact that going back to UN res 194 would completely render UN resolutions 242 and 338  useless , do you want to know why it was never going to work............
Quote
                                      UNITED NATIONS
      


Distr.
GENERAL

E/CN.4/Sub.2/2002/NGO/25
29 July 2002

   ENGLISH ONLY



COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS   
Sub-Commission on the Promotion
  and Protection of Human Rights
Fifty-fourth session
Item 6 (c) of the provisional agenda
                                                                                     

OTHER HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES:
OTHER ISSUES


Written statement* submitted by the World Union for Progressive Judaism, a non-governmental organization on the Roster



The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1996/31.

                                                                                                               [10 July 2002]







______________

*This written statement is issued, unedited, in the language(s) received from the submitting non-governmental organization(s).   


GE.02-14118


The Genocidal Charter of Hamas

1.     Recognizing that the right to life is a right from which all other rights flow, the worst crime against humanity is premeditated GENOCIDE! Article III (a) (b) and (c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention state that the following acts are punishable: Genocide; Conspiracy to commit genocide; and Direct and public incitement to commit genocide. 

2.   The premeditated terrorist massacre by Hamas on the Jewish Passover of 2002 needs to be seen in its true context. The current Islamist "jihad ideology" is part and parcel of the 1988 Charter of Hamas, inspired by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, its founder and spiritual leader.

3.   Just after his return to Gaza to a rapturous reception in October 1997, Sheikh Yassin declared that Israel must "disappear from the map." He also said: "We have an aim and an enemy, and we shall continue our jihad against the enemy. A nation without jihad is a nation without a purpose."  (AP, 22 October 1997). In February 1998, Sheikh Yassin toured the Gulf region for three months, visiting over a dozen Arab countries. Everywhere he went he preached in mosques, while his official audiences were broadcast on television. Since then, he has repeated his politicidal/genocidal goal.

4.   Last year, an alliance was declared between Chairman Arafat's Palestinian Authority and Hamas that resulted in the freeing of all convicted Hamas terrorists. In March 2002, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades recently joined Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and Hamas on the U.S. list of world terrorist groups. It immediately sent a girl jihadist-bomber to kill and maim on a Sabbath eve in Jerusalem, followed 24 hours later by a male jihadist-bomber in Tel Aviv. The families of jihadist-bombers receive a cheque of $25,000 from Saddam Hussein.

5.   Hamas is the acronym for "Islamic Resistance Movement", whose meaning, is "fanaticism". The Hamas Charter offers stereotype images, perpetuated in a Culture of Hate. Aside from the usual mad gibberage inspired by The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, it is committed to a genocidal jihad ideology against "the Jews," and this Culture of Hate is repeated again and again in official sermons at mosques in Gaza and elsewhere, which are shown on the official television of the Palestinian Authority.

6.   Religious justification is provided for this genocidal ideology by a controversial hadith - now a commonplace slogan with Islamists worldwide - which is the conclusion to article 7 of the Charter: "...The Prophet, Allah bless and grant him salvation has said: 'The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews, until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! O Abdullah! (Slave of Allah!) there is a Jew behind me come on and kill him..."

7.   Article 8 is the slogan of the Hamas Movement, inducing its adepts to kill infidels in the name of Allah when called upon: "Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur'an its Charter, jihad its path, and death for the cause of Allah its most sublime belief.

8.   Article 13 states: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad. All initiatives, proposals and international conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavours." The message in Article 28 illustrates vividly the genocidal terror aim of the jihadist bombings: "Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people: 'May the cowards never sleep'!"
   
9.   Article 2 of the Charter insists that Hamas is a wing of the international Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1922. On 18 March 2002, a Muslim Brotherhood event assembled 1'000 fanatics at Egypt's Al-Azhar University - "different than all previous demonstrations". They heard Hamas leader Sheikh Yassin's voice calling on them to take the jihad path. An Egyptian candidate was reported as saying that he was "one of the first of the martyrs [jihadist-bombers] to choose to die in order to defend the Muslim Palestinian people." (Al-Mustaqbal, Beirut, 19 March 2002, English trans. by MEMRI Special Dispatch-Egypt/Jihad and Terrorism Studies N° 358, 22 March 2002: www.memri.org).
   
10.   On 4 April 2002, the highest Sunni spiritual leader issued a religious ruling from Al-Azhar:   
"The great Imam of Al-Azhar, Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, demanded that the Palestinian people, of all factions, intensify the martyrdom operations against the Zionist enemy, and described their martyrdom as the highest form of jihad. He says that the young people executing them have granted Allah the most precious thing. He emphasized that every martyrdom operation against any Israeli, including women, children and teenagers, is a legitimate act according to religious law, and an Islamic commandment..." (www.lailatalqadr.com/stories/n040401.shtml (4 April 2002); English trans. in MEMRI report of 8 April 2002. Special Dispatch-Egypt/Jihad & Terrorism Studies, 7 April, N° 363/www.memri.org)

11.   A written Charter or Constitution cannot simply be ignored. Hitler understood this when he wrote in the 1924 preface to Mein Kampf: "The unity and uniformity of a doctrine can only be safeguarded if it has been fixed forever in a written text." Few people bothered to read Mein Kampf then and fewer still have bothered to read the Hamas Charter. It is high time that this be done now. 

12.    In a Report last year (E/CN.4/2001/114, §24), the High Commissioner for Human Rights referred to "hate speech and incitement. She was shocked by calls, broadcast on Palestinian television and radio, urging the killing of all Jews." At Durban, she identified personally with "Jews", who were being vilified en bloc (as in the 1930s), an act that has tarnished the United Nations indelibly.
   
13.   The World Union for Progressive Judaism again calls on the High Commissioner for Human Rights - and this Sub-Commission - to address a solemn appeal to Muslim spiritual and secular leaders to condemn this jihad ideology. Such a condemnation should include the Hamas genocidal Charter.

14.   The current policy of silence - on such a grave religious issue - by Muslim spiritual and secular leaders from the Member States of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), as well as from the international community, on this "Ideology of Jihad" implicitly condones as normative a great evil of our time, thereby encouraging future jihadist-bombers, whose actions should be considered by Muslims and non-Muslims alike as a defamation of Islam.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&ved=0CFUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unhchr.ch%2FHuridocda%2FHuridoca.nsf%2F0%2F0e289719c48eaf3ec1256c080037a638%2F%24FILE%2FG0214418.doc&ei=YpshUefbBbGP4gT0tIC4Bg&usg=AFQjCNFqhGSH_dJi8WvsG8dLy9Em57YbPw (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&ved=0CFUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unhchr.ch%2FHuridocda%2FHuridoca.nsf%2F0%2F0e289719c48eaf3ec1256c080037a638%2F%24FILE%2FG0214418.doc&ei=YpshUefbBbGP4gT0tIC4Bg&usg=AFQjCNFqhGSH_dJi8WvsG8dLy9Em57YbPw)   (pdf word doc)


I see plenty of crap on this thread about Israeli "ethnic cleansing", but have yet to read anything to criticise Hamas' genocidal actions. Until that happens, nothing you, or the Hamas poster boy say, will have any validity.

If even the UN call Hamas "genocidal," then what hope would any peace agreement, that didn't even include Hamas, have of working? Now, owing to the fact that Hamas are by and large the biggest single threat to Israel's citizens, just how do you think Israel could ever agree to it? Blame Hamas for that peace initiative not coming to anything.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Syferus on February 18, 2013, 05:14:52 AM
Sup lads, heard this was a good place for some good-natured banter!

Just send Cake to fix this craic, sure he's done everything else at this stage anyways.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 18, 2013, 07:45:41 AM
As a result, Israel remains isolated from its neighbors, with no prospect of reversing this. It is now rapidly forfeiting international acceptability

And you talk about "Hamas genocide". FFS. It's as if you warned Kerry footballers about Kilkenny football hatchetmen.
But you don't know anything about GAA, do you ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 18, 2013, 01:27:09 PM
The well known Nazi and antisemite  Rabbi Eric H Yoffie
on Israel's settlement problem :

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/pro-israel-group-s-primer-on-west-bank-settlements-shows-just-how-disastrous-they-are.premium-1.504232

A meaningful defense of Israel cannot be made without real answers on the settlement question. On campus, evasions don't work ("the real problem is Palestinian rejectionism"), religious arguments don't work ("we are talking about the spiritual and historical homeland of the Jewish people"), and emotional appeals don't work ("stop scapegoating Israeli settlements"). There are simply too many well-prepared people who know the uncomfortable facts about settlement activity and demand that the subject be confronted head-on.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 22, 2013, 11:11:39 PM
This week, Emad Burnat, the director of "5 Broken Cameras" was detained by immigration officials at LA airport as he arrived in the US for the Oscars. His film is up for best documentary, and hopefully he will win. This is his story about been detained and how it feels to be up for the award.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emad-burnat/5-broken-cameras-oscars_b_2744545.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

My Journey from Palestine to Hollywood


My wife and I had seen that look before -- on the faces of our kids, mostly. After all, like all Palestinian children living in the West Bank, ours have grown accustomed to the humiliation of ID checks and interrogations.

But we had never seen our youngest son, Gibreel, as disappointed as he was on Tuesday, when American immigration officials threatened to deny us entry to the United States and to the 85th Academy Awards for which we had traveled two days to attend.

As my friend and fellow filmmaker Michael Moore, who intervened to help secure my entry, tweeted after the episode: "Apparently the Immigration & Customs officers couldn't understand how a Palestinian could be an Oscar nominee."

Well, I am an Oscar nominee. But more to the point, my film, 5 Broken Cameras -- which chronicles my village Bil'in's nonviolent struggle to resist Israeli occupation -- is about precisely the kind of humiliation my family and I experienced at Los Angeles International Airport. The only difference is that the victims where I come from number in the millions, and our stories have become so routine that what happened to my family and me yesterday pales by comparison.

That's because, on any given day, there are more than 500 Israeli checkpoints, roadblocks, and other obstacles to movement throughout the West Bank -- an area less than 2 percent the size of California on which some 2.5 million Palestinians live under a ubiquitous system of repression.

In my film, which I co-directed with Israeli Guy Davidi, you can see this repression up close.

You can see construction of what leaders of conscience (like Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu) have called an "apartheid" wall -- separating us from our land and providing cover for Jewish-only colonies to steal our resources. You can see my village's children shoved around by grown men in fatigues and armor. You can see unarmed civilians, including Israeli peace activists, being shot by occupation soldiers. And you can see that our response -- the Palestinian response -- has been dignified, nonviolent, and determined.

Above all, though, you can see just how ordinary these scenes have become for Palestinians. That ordinariness is why so many of us from Bil'in have been shocked by the film's success. People I never imagined I would ever meet -- actors, politicians, legendary musicians -- have told me how moved they were by it and, inevitably, how they "had no idea things were that bad" for Palestinians.

The truth is, they're far worse. Don't take it from me. Listen to Americans like former President Jimmy Carter or author of The Color Purple Alice Walker, who have spoken out about the injustices they have seen firsthand in Palestine.

Like them, the Americans who have seen my film and witnessed the effects of Israel's occupation have been moved to stand with us. Not against Israel, but on the side of Israelis and Palestinians who understand that the true meaning of peace, as the great American civil rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr. once wrote, is not the absence of tension, but the presence of justice.

As I was being questioned at LAX, members of the Academy were gathering for an event organized in honor of this year's nominees for best documentary. I had been invited, and when word got around that I had been detained, the group insisted on foregoing dinner until I arrived. Their solidarity reminded me of another King quote -- that "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

Acting on that principle, my dinner companions that night held fast for a farmer and his family from a little village in Palestine. Such acts of decency and moral courage, more than the pronouncements of politicians or pundits -- or the fear-driven acts of immigration officials -- are what will bring true peace to the Holy Land.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 22, 2013, 11:37:48 PM
This is the official trailer for the film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRL7rvGuApM

And you can watch the full movie through this link. If you can spare 90 minutes, you will not be disappointed.

http://viooz.eu/movies/15366-5-broken-cameras-2011.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 23, 2013, 01:33:50 AM
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/02/documents-execution-american.html

Sabra and Shatila documents revealed: Ariel Sharon feared indictment for genocide over Israel's role

After observing a moratorium of 30 years, Israel released on Thursday records and minutes of secret meetings held on the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacre. The documents show that the Minister of Defence at that time, Ariel Sharon, feared indictment for the crime of genocide if Israeli officials' recognized prior knowledge of the massacre in the Palestinian refugee camps, Sabra and Shatila, in Lebanon.

Sharon initially refused to resign from his post in accord with the recommendation of the Kahan Commission of Inquiry into the massacre. He warned that according to his interpretation of the 1950 statute on genocide all the ministers of government at the time could be considered accomplices to the massacre.

At a cabinet meeting, convened on February 10, 1983, Sharon outlined his response to the Commission's report saying;

"We all urged this, we all enabled it, by asking them (the Phalangist Christian militias) to enter the camps. We were present, we lit up the area and we evacuated casualties. It is common knowledge that we were in the area to keep the opposition away, and we did not isolate it from other areas. We kept forces in the area to ensure the mission was carried out, and in case they ran into trouble and needed help getting out."

The cabinet ultimately adopted the Kahan commission's report against Sharon's recommendation, and he was sacked from his position as minister of defence
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 23, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
A 30-year-old Palestinian man, Arafat Jaradat, died while in Israeli custody today. According to Palestinian human rights organization Al Haq, Jaradat died either during or shortly after he was interrogated in Meggido Prison.

Speaking to the Agence France Presse, a spokeswoman for the Israel Prisons Service confirmed the death. She claimed, "It was probably a cardiac arrest."

But Al Haq reports that Jaradat, who was arrested on February 18, had no known health conditions. Jaradat was from the West Bank village of Sa'ir, which is north of Hebron. He is survived by two children and his wife is reportedly pregnant with their third child.

Palestinian prisoners will go on hunger strike in protest of Jaradat's death, the Palestinian news agency Maan reports.

According to B'Tselem, more than 4,500 Palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons; 178 of the detainees are being held without trial in administrative detention. The UN reports that approximately 700,000 Palestinians have been held in Israeli prisons since the occupation began in 1967. Many of these prisoners have been held without charge on administrative detention orders. Children have also been jailed. In 2012, 143 children between 16 and 18 were held in Israeli jails, including 21 minors under the age of 15.

Jaradat's death comes as Palestinian prisoner Samer Issawi has been on hunger strike for over 200 days. Al Haq reports that Issawi's family is being harassed by Israeli forces. Issawi's brother, Shadi, was arrested last week; Issawi's sister, Shirin, was detained for 24 hours in December and was put on house arrest. On New Year's Day, Israeli forces razed the home of Issawi's brother, Rafat.

As Samer Issawi's condition deteriorates, protests and clashes have spread throughout the West Bank. Dozens of Palestinian protesters were injured in demonstrations throughout the West Bank on Friday, including one who was shot with live ammunition in Hebron.

On Saturday, 26-year-old Abdel Hassan was reportedly shot in the stomach by Israeli settlers who invaded the village of Qusra near Nablus, he was in serious condition in a Nablus hospital. A 16-year-old boy was also shot in the leg in the same incident.

http://972mag.com/palestinian-prisoner-dies-in-israeli-interrogation-center/66547/
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 23, 2013, 10:52:22 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 23, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
A 30-year-old Palestinian man, Arafat Jaradat, died while in Israeli custody today. According to Palestinian human rights organization Al Haq, Jaradat died either during or shortly after he was interrogated in Meggido Prison.

Speaking to the Agence France Presse, a spokeswoman for the Israel Prisons Service confirmed the death. She claimed, "It was probably a cardiac arrest."

But Al Haq reports that Jaradat, who was arrested on February 18, had no known health conditions. Jaradat was from the West Bank village of Sa'ir, which is north of Hebron. He is survived by two children and his wife is reportedly pregnant with their third child.

Palestinian prisoners will go on hunger strike in protest of Jaradat's death, the Palestinian news agency Maan reports.

According to B'Tselem, more than 4,500 Palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons; 178 of the detainees are being held without trial in administrative detention. The UN reports that approximately 700,000 Palestinians have been held in Israeli prisons since the occupation began in 1967. Many of these prisoners have been held without charge on administrative detention orders. Children have also been jailed. In 2012, 143 children between 16 and 18 were held in Israeli jails, including 21 minors under the age of 15.

Jaradat's death comes as Palestinian prisoner Samer Issawi has been on hunger strike for over 200 days. Al Haq reports that Issawi's family is being harassed by Israeli forces. Issawi's brother, Shadi, was arrested last week; Issawi's sister, Shirin, was detained for 24 hours in December and was put on house arrest. On New Year's Day, Israeli forces razed the home of Issawi's brother, Rafat.

As Samer Issawi's condition deteriorates, protests and clashes have spread throughout the West Bank. Dozens of Palestinian protesters were injured in demonstrations throughout the West Bank on Friday, including one who was shot with live ammunition in Hebron.

On Saturday, 26-year-old Abdel Hassan was reportedly shot in the stomach by Israeli settlers who invaded the village of Qusra near Nablus, he was in serious condition in a Nablus hospital. A 16-year-old boy was also shot in the leg in the same incident.

http://972mag.com/palestinian-prisoner-dies-in-israeli-interrogation-center/66547/
And Israel is supposed to be the fulfilment of the covenant of the Jewish people with God. You couldn't make it up.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 24, 2013, 11:35:06 AM
Israel is in a downward spiral of bad law/disrespect for basic human rights. Things are going to get a lot worse over the next few years as the Zionists get even more desperate in an ongoing  bid  to hold the Palestinians down.   the longer it goes on the more they undermine the rationale for the Jewish state.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
Former Israeli Amb to Obama on his visit: 'You cannot come to an area that exhibits signs of apartheid and ignore them'


In the wake of recently resurfaced comments allegedly made by Chuck Hagel during a 2010 speech at Rutgers University regarding the risk Israel runs of "becoming an apartheid state if it didn't allow the Palestinians to form a state," The Times of Israel has reported even more damning statements made by a former Israeli official.

Alon Liel, a former Israeli Foreign Ministry Director-General and ex-Ambassador to South Africa, said on February 20, "In the situation that exists today, until a Palestinian state is created, we are actually one state. This joint state — in the hope that the status quo is temporary — is an apartheid state."

Liel, speaking at Jerusalem conference dedicated to discussing this very topic, was forthright and unflinching in his assessment of Israel's current policies and predicament regarding the continuing occupation of Palestine:

"As someone who knows the original apartheid well, and also knows the State of Israel quite well – I was born here, grew up here, served and fought for it for 30 years — someone like me knows that Zionism isn't apartheid and the State of Israel that I grew up in wasn't an apartheid state," Liel emphasized.

"I'm here today because I came to the conclusion that the occupation of the West Bank as it exists today is a sort of Israeli apartheid," said Liel. "The occupation became a hump on the back of Zionism; it has now become the hump of the State of Israel."

There is a real danger of Israel's occupation of the West Bank becoming an integral part of the state, he said. "When that happens, when the West Bank and [Israel in the pre-1967 lines] become one, and the Palestinian residents of the West Bank will not have citizenship — we're apartheid," he said

Liel also had a message for U.S. President Barack Obama, who is slated to visit to Israel in March:

"If you, President Obama, intend to come here for a courtesy visit — don't come. Don't come! We don't need you here for a courtesy visit," Liel said. "You cannot come to an area that exhibits signs of apartheid and ignore them. That would simply be an unethical visit. You yourself know full well thatIsrael is standing at the apartheid cliff. If you don't deal with this topic during your visit, the responsibility will at the end of the process also lie with you."

The event at which Liel was speaking was entitled, "Is there Israeli Apartheid?" He was joined by Peace Now board member Amiram Goldblum, journalist Danny Rubinstein, Ha'aretz reporter Gideon Levy, Hebrew University professors emeritus Frances Raday and Gideon Shimoni, Ben-Gurion University professor Oren Yiftachel, Bar-Ilan University political science lecturer and B'Tselem board member Menachem Klein, and human rights lawyer Michael Sfard.

After noting the "systematic discrimination" of Palestinians by Israel, Levy stated his agreement with Apartheid terminology. "What else could we call what's happening here?," he asked. He also pointed out that, while military occupation is not unique to Israel/Palestine, "I don't know any other occupation where the occupier thinks he's the victim, where he thinks he's the only victim," adding, "as long as Israel doesn't pay a price for the occupation, nothing is going to change."

Klein concentrated his comments on East Jerusalem, where he said Israel practices a form of "ethno-apartheid."

Only professor Shimoni challenged the application of the term Apartheid with regard to Israeli policies which he said was "rather unfair and lacks intellectual honesty." He argued that "from land theft to various draconic [sic] restrictions, as much they are worthy of condemnation — they are not apartheid," which he called a "rhetorical weapon...to demonize and excoriate the State of Israel."

The Times of Israel too claimed that the Apartheid analogy is "highly contentious" and "usually employed only by radical anti-Israel activists." However, anyone familiar with the statements of myriad Israeli politicians and commentators (as compiled here) know this is a falsehood

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/02/israeli-exhibits-apartheid.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2013, 02:40:02 PM
Palestinian chutzpah

By Gideon Levy  Feb.24, 2013

My Palestinian brothers (for your information, everyone's a "brother" around here these days ), aren't you ashamed? How dare you protest and throw stones? How dare you disturb the peace; build "illegal" outposts on your own private land; go on hunger strikes; demonstrate solidarity with prisoners; protest the closing of Shuhada Street in Hebron and the rearrest of freed prisoners; sneak into Israel to find work; oppose the eviction of people from their homes; protest that you are not allowed to reach your farmlands; protest against the fence that was built in your area; threaten a third intifada? Are you out of your minds? Where do you get such chutzpah?

Now you demonstrate? After all, we've already told you we no longer care what happens to you. Right and left, they all told you loud and clear. Even that warrior for social justice, MK Shelly Yacimovich, told you that Israelis don't care about you, and you just don't understand. Can't you see that we're busy? We have momentous questions before us - sharing the military burden; the number of ministers; Prime Minister-designate Benjamin Netanyahu's pistachio ice cream; Yesh Atid MK Ruth Calderon's inaugural Knesset speech; and Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar's alleged love life.

So who can think about you? Israel is trying to put together a coalition. It is still not clear whether the eternal alliance between Yesh Atid's Yair Lapid and Habayit Hayehudi's Naftali Bennett will last, and you dare to bother us with your foolishness? Lapid doesn't want the "Hanin Zuabis"; Bennett doesn't want "Abu"; and you just don't get it. You don't see they are so worried about the people of Israel that they have no time for you, so how dare you remind them of your existence.

Occupation-shmoccupation; human and civil rights; expulsion and stealing; self-determination; two states for two peoples; the separation fence; 5,000 prisoners - you buzz around like bothersome mosquitoes. Leave us alone, you're boring us.

How much longer are you going to keep bothering us with your little problems? How much longer are you going to keep bothering the world? Can't you see that U.S. President Barack Obama is coming on another emotional-blackmail visit, to prostrate himself on the graves of Yitzhak Rabin and Theodor Herzl and at Yad Vashem, so why should you bother him, either? Sit tight, my brothers: in Syria, things are worse.

Sit tight: the occupation is only 46 years old. Be happy with what you have. You're in good hands - the hands of the only democracy in the Middle East. Don't bother it and don't stop it from continuing to flourish. Its old politics didn't take an interest in you and its new politics - even less. Just ask the harbingers of the new politics, Lapid and Bennett, over whom Israel is so enthusiastic right now. Neither of them probably ever met a (living ) Palestinian in their life, nor do they want to. You'll miss Netanyahu yet, you'll miss Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak, from the old guard. They at least talked to you. So be happy with what you have.

Think ahead. It won't be that long before you are the majority here. And even before that, the world will not stand for you to live without rights. Guilt feelings over the Holocaust will subside. The Jewish lobby - yes, it's Jewish - might lose some of its strength. And besides, natural justice is with you, history is on your side.

Rotten tyrannies like the Israeli occupation have never lasted forever. So sit tight, my brothers, and wait for the future. If it doesn't happen in your lifetime, perhaps it will in your grandchildren's. True, you have suffered enough, but a human being is like a tree in a field; when you get whipped, bend your head submissively. After all, you have tried everything: negotiations and terror; recognition and compromise; the first intifada; the second intifada.

Nothing much came out of it all. The settlers have tripled, the Knesset is full of their representatives, and Israel has completely stopped dealing with you. True, if you sit tight you will be forgotten; if you protest, they will say you are terrorists. But the most important thing is: not now. Not when Israel is busy, not when Israel has had it with you, with your wailing, your sobbing and your demands.

It's hard to be a Palestinian but, remember, it's even harder to be a Jew. A Jew, after all, is always the victim; the only victim around.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/palestinian-chutzpah.premium-1.505334
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 24, 2013, 03:37:38 PM
Rotten tyrannies like the Israeli occupation have never lasted forever

That is what all the Jewish holidays say....
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2013, 10:15:14 PM
If a Hell exists, I hope the fcukers that carried out this torture rot in it's deepest pits for eternity.


Minister: Autopsy shows torture killed Jaradat

BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- An autopsy has revealed that Arafat Jaradat died of extreme torture in Israeli custody and did not have a cardiac arrest, the PA Minister of Detainee Affairs said Sunday.

At a news conference in Ramallah, Issa Qaraqe said an autopsy conducted in Israel in the presence of Palestinian officials revealed that 30-year-old Jaradat had six broken bones in his neck, spine, arms and legs.

"The information we have received so far is shocking and painful. The evidence corroborates our suspicion that Mr. Jaradat died as a result of torture, especially since the autopsy clearly proved that the victim's heart was healthy, which disproves the initial alleged account presented by occupation authorities that he died of a heart attack," Qaraqe said.

A spokeswoman for Israel's Prison Authority said Saturday that Jaradat had apparently died of cardiac arrest in Megiddo prison. An emergency service team had tried to resuscitate him but failed, she said.

Qaraqe described the claim as a fabrication and called for a committee to investigate those responsible for Jaradat's death.

The minister said Jaradat had sustained injuries and severe bruising in the upper right back area and severe bruises of sharp circular shape in the right chest area.

The autopsy revealed evidence of severe torture and on the muscle of the upper left shoulder, parallel to the spine in the lower neck area, and evidence of severe torture under the skin and inside the muscle of the right side of the chest. His second and third ribs in the right side of the chest were broken, Qaraqe said, and he also had injuries in the middle of the muscle in the right hand.

Jaradat's heart was in good condition and there were no signs of bruising or stroke, the minister added.

Israel's Health Ministry said the injuries found in the autopsy could have been caused by the medical emergency team's efforts to resuscitate Jaradat.

"These initial findings are not enough to determine the cause of death," the Israeli ministry said, adding that further test results were not yet in. An Israeli police spokesman said the investigation into Jaradat's death was still ongoing.

Qaraqe's deputy, Ziyad Au Ain, urged any doctors, including Israeli doctors, who doubted that Jaradat was tortured to death to view his body in Al-Ahli Hospital in Hebron.

"Jaradat died due to torture and not a stroke or heart attack," he said, adding that those responsible must be sued either through Interpol or the International Criminal Court.

Palestinian Prisoners Society president Qaddura Fares added that the autopsy revealed seven injuries to the inside of Jaradat's lower lip, bruises on his face and blood on his nose.

After the autopsy, Jaradat's body was transferred to the Palestinian Red Crescent at the Tarqumiya crossing west of Hebron, and taken to the Al-Ahli Hospital. He will be buried on Monday in his hometown Sair.

Jaradat's lawyer Kameel Sabbagh said he was tortured by Israeli interrogators.

Sabbagh, who works for the prisoners ministry, was present at Jaradat's last hearing on Thursday, which an Israeli judge postponed for 12 days.

"When I entered the courtroom I saw Jaradat sitting on a wooden chair in front of the judge. His back was hunched and he looked sick and fragile," Sabbagh said in a statement Sunday.

"When I sat next to him he told me that he had serious pains in his back and other parts of his body because he was being beaten up and hanged for many long hours while he was being investigated

"When Jaradat heard that the judge postponed his hearing he seemed extremely afraid and asked me if he was going to spend the time left in the cell. I replied to him that he was still in the investigation period and this is possible and that as a lawyer I couldn't do anything about his whereabouts at this time."

Sabbagh said Jaradat's psychological state was very serious and that he informed the judge his client had been tortured. The judge ordered that Jaradat should be examined by the prison doctor but "this didn't happen," the lawyer added.

On Sunday, thousands of Palestinians protested the death across the West Bank and Gaza, and at least two protesters were injured by live fire in clashes with Israeli forces, including the 13-year-old son of a Preventive Security officer.

Dozens more were injured by rubber-coated bullets.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said soldiers used riot dispersal means against Palestinians hurling rocks at security forces

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=568699
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 24, 2013, 10:22:11 PM
Calling BDB. Where are you, habibi? We need you now on the thread. Come and defend Israel .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 12:30:57 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 24, 2013, 10:22:11 PM
Calling BDB. Where are you, habibi? We need you now on the thread. Come and defend Israel .
I think the only way to prove beyond doubt what the actual cause of death was, is to having an independent autopsy. Until then, we are only pissing in the wind with speculation.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 08:23:22 AM

Autopsy Unable to Determine Cause of Terrorist Prisoner's Death

An autopsy on the body of Arafat Jaradat finds that it is impossible to determine the cause of his death. PA blames Israel.


AAFont Size
By Elad Benari
First Publish: 2/25/2013, 12:14 AM




Arabs riot near Ofer Prison Thursday

Flash90


An autopsy conducted on Sunday on the body of Arafat Jaradat, the terrorist prisoner who died at the Meggido Prison in northern Israel on Saturday, found that it is impossible to determine the exact cause of his death.

The Palestinian Authority nevertheless took advantage of the non-conclusive report to blame Israel for torturing Jaradat to death.

The autopsy, which was performed by the Institute of Forensic Medicine at Abu Kabir, found that no external signs of trauma were found on Jaradat's body, and that no evidence of any disease was discovered. The Ministry of Health stated that it is impossible, therefore, to link the findings with a cause of death.

The Palestinian Authority minister of prisoner affairs, Issa Qaraqaa, accused Israel of torturing Jaradat to death, saying in a statement quoted by AFP, "The evidence corroborates our suspicion that Jaradat died as a result of torture, especially since the autopsy clearly proved that the victim's heart was healthy."

He said the autopsy, which was carried out in the presence of a PA Arab doctor, indicated bruises on Jaradat's torso and damage to muscles, as well as "broken" ribs.

Israel stressed that there were "fractures in the ribs" which "could be testimony to resuscitation efforts."

PA Arabs in Judea and Samaria took advantage of Jaradat's death on Sunday, using it as their latest excuse for rioting. No one was reported hurt.

The security forces are bracing for more violence, as preparations are being made for Jaradat's funeral.

As the rioting continued on Sunday, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu sent a message to the PA to calm tensions in Judea and Samaria. He also instructed Israeli authorities to transfer the PA its tax revenues for January, "so that they won't have an excuse not to enforce calm on the ground."


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165584 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165584)

One side claims one thing, The other side, another. The only way to truely say, is to hold an independent autopsy.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on February 25, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
Jesus BDB, Israel claims he was injured while trying to save him from a death caused by nothing they could find? They don't even really try any more.

And before you say it I am not a fan of the Palestinian rocket launchers either. For a start they give Israel the excuse they seem to need to wreak havoc on the general Palestinian population. Every rocket launcher must know he is signing the death warrant of more of his countrymen, women and children.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: johnneycool on February 25, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
An independent autopsy would indeed prove or disprove both sides theory, but who'd carry it out and would the state of Israel allow it?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 03:49:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 08:23:22 AM

Autopsy Unable to Determine Cause of Terrorist Prisoner's Death
An autopsy on the body of Arafat Jaradat finds that it is impossible to determine the cause of his death. PA blames Israel.

By Elad Benari
First Publish: 2/25/2013, 12:14 AM
Arbs riot near Ofer Prison Thursday

Flash90


An autopsy conducted on Sunday on the body of Arafat Jaradat, the terrorist prisoner who died at the Meggido Prison in northern Israel on Saturday, found that it is impossible to determine the exact cause of his death.

The Palestinian Authority nevertheless took advantage of the non-conclusive report to blame Israel for torturing Jaradat to death.
The autopsy, which was performed by the Institute of Forensic Medicine at Abu Kabir, found that no external signs of trauma were found on Jaradat's body, and that no evidence of any disease was discovered. The Ministry of Health stated that it is impossible, therefore, to link the findings with a cause of death.

The Palestinian Authority minister of prisoner affairs, Issa Qaraqaa, accused Israel of torturing Jaradat to death, saying in a statement quoted by AFP, "The evidence corroborates our suspicion that Jaradat died as a result of torture, especially since the autopsy clearly proved that the victim's heart was healthy."
He said the autopsy, which was carried out in the presence of a PA Arab doctor, indicated bruises on Jaradat's torso and damage to muscles, as well as "broken" ribs.

Israel stressed that there were "fractures in the ribs" which "could be testimony to resuscitation efforts."
PA Arabs in Judea and Samaria took advantage of Jaradat's death on Sunday, using it as their latest excuse for rioting. No one was reported hurt.

The security forces are bracing for more violence, as preparations are being made for Jaradat's funeral.
As the rioting continued on Sunday, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu sent a message to the PA to calm tensions in Judea and Samaria. He also instructed Israeli authorities to transfer the PA its tax revenues for January, "so that they won't have an excuse not to enforce calm on the ground."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165584 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165584)

One side claims one thing, The other side, another. The only way to truely say, is to hold an independent autopsy.

Still waiting for an investigation into the Mavi Marmara. Furkan Dogan was shot 5 times from behind.

But never mind. Just look at the shite BDB posts. How can Israeli Jews be expected to understand anything about what's going on when the Israeli embassy posts such tripe on the GAAboard? 

The terrorist prisoner. He just died like that.
Just collapsed. He was drinking tea and he just died. Israeli jailors tried to resuscitate him and were trying so hard they broke his ribs. 

Note the persecution complex. Palestinians might blame Israel for killing someone in custody. The antisemitic bastards. how dare they !   
And Judea and Samaria. and PA Arabs. Can't even call them Palestinians.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 03:49:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 25, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
Jesus BDB, Israel claims he was injured while trying to save him from a death caused by nothing they could find? They don't even really try any more.

And before you say it I am not a fan of the Palestinian rocket launchers either. For a start they give Israel the excuse they seem to need to wreak havoc on the general Palestinian population. Every rocket launcher must know he is signing the death warrant of more of his countrymen, women and children.
He was arrested for stone throwing, Muppet.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on February 25, 2013, 04:01:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 03:49:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 25, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
Jesus BDB, Israel claims he was injured while trying to save him from a death caused by nothing they could find? They don't even really try any more.

And before you say it I am not a fan of the Palestinian rocket launchers either. For a start they give Israel the excuse they seem to need to wreak havoc on the general Palestinian population. Every rocket launcher must know he is signing the death warrant of more of his countrymen, women and children.
He was arrested for stone throwing, Muppet.

Sorry I was speaking generally not about an individual. I can see how it looked like that in my post.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 04:02:48 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 25, 2013, 04:01:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 03:49:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 25, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
Jesus BDB, Israel claims he was injured while trying to save him from a death caused by nothing they could find? They don't even really try any more.

And before you say it I am not a fan of the Palestinian rocket launchers either. For a start they give Israel the excuse they seem to need to wreak havoc on the general Palestinian population. Every rocket launcher must know he is signing the death warrant of more of his countrymen, women and children.
He was arrested for stone throwing, Muppet.

Sorry I was speaking generally not about an individual. I can see how it looked like that in my post.
Fair enough. But even if they fire rockets they have a right to a trial.  Israel is a third world junta state at this point.  Torturing prisoners to death is supposed to be kosher.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 04:22:08 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 25, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
An independent autopsy would indeed prove or disprove both sides theory, but who'd carry it out and would the state of Israel allow it?
The body has already been handed over to his family. If they don't know who to believe, then they should arrange an independent autopsy, with Israeli and PA doctors present.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 04:28:27 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 04:22:08 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 25, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
An independent autopsy would indeed prove or disprove both sides theory, but who'd carry it out and would the state of Israel allow it?
The body has already been handed over to his family. If they don't know who to believe, then they should arrange an independent autopsy, with Israeli and PA doctors present.
Israeli doctors like doctors everywhere are supposed to follow their Hippocratic oath. Do no harm. But there is obviously a Zionist Jewish opt out for the torture of patients.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Billys Boots on February 25, 2013, 04:34:49 PM
Friggin hell, this forum now has apologists for nearly everything - I don't know what to say.   :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 04:42:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 04:28:27 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 04:22:08 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 25, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
An independent autopsy would indeed prove or disprove both sides theory, but who'd carry it out and would the state of Israel allow it?
The body has already been handed over to his family. If they don't know who to believe, then they should arrange an independent autopsy, with Israeli and PA doctors present.
Israeli doctors like doctors everywhere are supposed to follow their Hippocratic oath. Do no harm. But there is obviously a Zionist Jewish opt out for the torture of patients.

You really do have it bad, don't you. There's rabid hatred, then there's you. Pathetic.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 04:56:45 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 04:42:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 04:28:27 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 04:22:08 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 25, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
An independent autopsy would indeed prove or disprove both sides theory, but who'd carry it out and would the state of Israel allow it?
The body has already been handed over to his family. If they don't know who to believe, then they should arrange an independent autopsy, with Israeli and PA doctors present.
Israeli doctors like doctors everywhere are supposed to follow their Hippocratic oath. Do no harm. But there is obviously a Zionist Jewish opt out for the torture of patients.

You really do have it bad, don't you. There's rabid hatred, then there's you. Pathetic.

I just look at what has happened to Israel and wonder why. After the Holocaust the Jews deserved a fresh start. Maybe they chose the
wrong place to build their state but they could have made amends. And now there are pogroms in Tel Aviv against blacks, Israel has successfully deindustrialised Gaza and turned it into a centre for disease emergence, Jews are torturing Palestinians to death, international law has been abandoned and "Never again" turned into a joke. And you can't tell me that this has got anything remotely to do with Judaism. It's all fucked up. And it can only get worse

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on February 25, 2013, 06:36:32 PM
A young man is arrested for allegedly throwing a rock at an illegal occupation soldier. He is brought to jail, and over 7 days he is tortured to the point where he died. He leaves behind a young family and a pregnant wife. Well over 200 Palestinians have died in similar circumstances during interrogation. As bad as interrogation was here back in the day, to the best of my knowledge no one died. And this man was only suspected of throwing a rock. How many rocks have been thrown in Belfast over the past couple of months, and how many people faced death by torture?

Every day the situation just keeps getting worse for Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. And day after day western leaders turn a blind eye to it and continue to increase their support for Israel. International law is totally ignored, as is the cause of humanity. The whole thing beggars belief. Palestinians have been crying out for help for decades, and sadly they have been let down. Even the party in Ireland who claim to support them has let them down by rolling out the red carpet in West Belfast for Caterpillar, or when their youth wing show up to protest a low level Israeli official at Jordanstown, the leadership is wining and dining with the UK Ambassador at Stormont. Shame on them, and shame on their supporters for staying silent on it.

Since the ceasefire in Gaza in November, Israel has broken it over 100 times, and not one rocket has been fired. Nowhere will you see that in the news, but hey, if a rocket is fired, everyone will jump up and down and say it's their fault that the F16's are now destroying their homes and murdering their people once again.

I have no idea how long it is going to take, but some day soon, they will be brought to book. I just hope that is very soon.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 07:35:23 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 25, 2013, 06:36:32 PM
A young man is arrested for allegedly throwing a rock at an illegal occupation soldier. He is brought to jail, and over 7 days he is tortured to the point where he died. He leaves behind a young family and a pregnant wife. Well over 200 Palestinians have died in similar circumstances during interrogation. As bad as interrogation was here back in the day, to the best of my knowledge no one died. And this man was only suspected of throwing a rock. How many rocks have been thrown in Belfast over the past couple of months, and how many people faced death by torture?

Every day the situation just keeps getting worse for Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. And day after day western leaders turn a blind eye to it and continue to increase their support for Israel. International law is totally ignored, as is the cause of humanity. The whole thing beggars belief. Palestinians have been crying out for help for decades, and sadly they have been let down. Even the party in Ireland who claim to support them has let them down by rolling out the red carpet in West Belfast for Caterpillar, or when their youth wing show up to protest a low level Israeli official at Jordanstown, the leadership is wining and dining with the UK Ambassador at Stormont. Shame on them, and shame on their supporters for staying silent on it.

Since the ceasefire in Gaza in November, Israel has broken it over 100 times, and not one rocket has been fired. Nowhere will you see that in the news, but hey, if a rocket is fired, everyone will jump up and down and say it's their fault that the F16's are now destroying their homes and murdering their people once again.

I have no idea how long it is going to take, but some day soon, they will be brought to book. I just hope that is very soon.
And Shin Bet blackmailing prisoners under interrogation with threats of rape of their sisters and wives. Judaism 2013.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 25, 2013, 09:51:00 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 25, 2013, 12:30:57 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 24, 2013, 10:22:11 PM
Calling BDB. Where are you, habibi? We need you now on the thread. Come and defend Israel .
I think the only way to prove beyond doubt what the actual cause of death was, is to having an independent autopsy. Until then, we are only pissing in the wind with speculation.
Israel does this sort of thing systematically. Zionism is the system. It lost touch with the rest of the world some time ago. If someone died in a Garda station I might agree with you. But not in the case of Israel.  Not with the sociopaths who run it. Netanyahu couldn't care less about human rights or the rule of law.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: theticklemister on February 27, 2013, 05:31:44 PM
A Derry Palestinian support group has donated a minibus to a school in the Gaza Strip.

The 'Derry to Gaza' group raised money throughout the north west to purchase the vehicle, which will now form part of a land convoy travelling to Gaza to bring aid to the locals.

Members and supporters of the group gathered at Free Derry Corner on Friday afternoon to see the vehicle off as it began the journey to Gaza.

Betty Doherty from the group said it was the third time people from the city have taken part in a land convoy to Gaza.

"This will be the third vehicle we have delivered; first was the ambulance in 2009/10 just after operation 'cast lead,' and then two years ago we also delivered a minibus to a deaf school in the Gaza Strip," she said.

Ms Doherty said the group also donated tools to the Gazan people.

"Along with the minibus we will also be concentrating on construction tools as there is a severe shortage of tools available in Gaza even to carry out maintenance work, this is due to the blockade which still remains in place as part of Israel's collective punishment policy against the people of Gaza," she explained.

She also said the Gaza to Derry group will continue to support the Palestinian people with future projects.

"This convoy is aimed at sending solidarity and easing the suffering of the illegally imposed blockade in whatever small way it can. We realize that sending aid has not and will not bring an end to the siege on Gaza. However we are in contact with the Truth justice Peace group, and will be working with them in summer on a project that aims to set up trade between Gaza and the rest of the world," she said.

She thanked everyone from across the north west who supported the fund raising appeal. "We would like to take this opportunity to thank the children of Gaelscoil Bhun Crannacha, the people of Derry for their support and everyone involved in organizing and fund raising for this project," she said
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 27, 2013, 05:43:16 PM
Pogrom season has started early this year in Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/jewish-youths-allegedly-attack-arab-man-in-tel-aviv.premium-1.505510

40-year-old Jaffa resident was beaten with glass bottles early Sunday morning; victim's wife says attacking youths claimed 'Arabs are taking over the country.'

The attack, which occurred on Herbert Samuel Street around 4:00 A.M. after the victim, Hassan Ausruf, 40, had gone out to work. Ausruf operates a street-cleaning vehicle for contractor cleaning company. When Ausruf stopped his vehicle to fill its water tank, a group of youths assaulted him.
Ausruf's wife, Nariman, told Haaretz that a group of about 15 people started to bully and attack Hassan without provocation. "He asked them why they were attacking him and they told him with utmost chutzpah 'because you're Arab,'" Nariman told Haaretz. "They attacked him with whatever they could get their hands on, bottles and shards of glass and they inflicted serious wounds to his head and in one of his eyes." She added, "At some point he managed to escape with his entire face covered in blood and reached a friend where he collapsed."


http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/arab-woman-attacked-in-jerusalem-in-alleged-hate-crime.premium-1.506028

Jerusalem police have been investigating suspicions that an Arab woman was a victim of a nationalistically-motivated attack on Monday. The police received photos showing young Jewish women attacking the Arab woman at a light rail station in the capital
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 27, 2013, 09:18:14 PM

Cruel siege on Gaza by neighboring state: Tunnels, flooded with raw sewage, now to be destroyed


The smuggling tunnels linking Gaza to Egypt are a security threat and must be destroyed, a Jerusalem Cairo court ruled on Tuesday, responding to a petition brought by a group of activists in the wake of rocket firing and cross border attacks on Israel a cross-border attack, by jihadist elements who infiltrated from Gaza through the tunnels, that killed 16 Egyptian border guards in August.


The Israeli Egyptian court ruling makes it obligatory that the government destroy the tunnels, according to Reuters.

Israel Egypt cannot tolerate a porous border that will continue to destabilize the Sinai Peninsula, Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi's national security adviser reportedly said.

Gaza, home to roughly 1.7 million people, has lived with border restrictions since Hamas's violent takeover of the territory in 2007. Smuggling under the 15-kilometer border has circumvented official crossings and bypassed restrictions for many years.

Restrictions on the influx of goods into the territory has prompted Palestinians in Gaza to smuggle in luxury goods, weapons and cash through the illegal tunnels. Hamas officials are known to collect fees from tunnel operators.

An estimated 30% of goods that reach Gaza come through the tunnels

An Israeli Egyptian lawyer, Wael Hamdy, instigated the case because he was "worried about the state of national security" in his country after terror attacks prompted by lawlessness in the Sinai desert region.

The lawyer also said that, in addition to recent efforts by Jerusalem the Muslim Brotherhood-led government in Cairo to close some tunnels,  Israel Egypt has recently resorted to other draconian and inhumane measures such flooding some of the more than 2000 active tunnel with raw sewage.




The systematic siege on Gaza's lifeline to the outside world has been met with fierce condemnation silence from pro-Palestinian groups, assorted "human rights" organizations and, even more strangely, the Guardian.

http://cifwatch.com/ (http://cifwatch.com/)

If Israel were to flood these tunnels, then the usual suspects on here would be up in arms, but when it's Egypt, it's A.O.K.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 27, 2013, 09:27:07 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 27, 2013, 09:18:14 PM

Cruel siege on Gaza by neighboring state: Tunnels, flooded with raw sewage, now to be destroyed


The smuggling tunnels linking Gaza to Egypt are a security threat and must be destroyed, a Jerusalem Cairo court ruled on Tuesday, responding to a petition brought by a group of activists in the wake of rocket firing and cross border attacks on Israel a cross-border attack, by jihadist elements who infiltrated from Gaza through the tunnels, that killed 16 Egyptian border guards in August.


The Israeli Egyptian court ruling makes it obligatory that the government destroy the tunnels, according to Reuters.

Israel Egypt cannot tolerate a porous border that will continue to destabilize the Sinai Peninsula, Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi's national security adviser reportedly said.

Gaza, home to roughly 1.7 million people, has lived with border restrictions since Hamas's violent takeover of the territory in 2007. Smuggling under the 15-kilometer border has circumvented official crossings and bypassed restrictions for many years.

Restrictions on the influx of goods into the territory has prompted Palestinians in Gaza to smuggle in luxury goods, weapons and cash through the illegal tunnels. Hamas officials are known to collect fees from tunnel operators.

An estimated 30% of goods that reach Gaza come through the tunnels

An Israeli Egyptian lawyer, Wael Hamdy, instigated the case because he was "worried about the state of national security" in his country after terror attacks prompted by lawlessness in the Sinai desert region.

The lawyer also said that, in addition to recent efforts by Jerusalem the Muslim Brotherhood-led government in Cairo to close some tunnels,  Israel Egypt has recently resorted to other draconian and inhumane measures such flooding some of the more than 2000 active tunnel with raw sewage.




The systematic siege on Gaza's lifeline to the outside world has been met with fierce condemnation silence from pro-Palestinian groups, assorted "human rights" organizations and, even more strangely, the Guardian.

http://cifwatch.com/ (http://cifwatch.com/)

If Israel were to flood these tunnels, then the usual suspects on here would be up in arms, but when it's Egypt, it's A.O.K.
Very poor form from Egypt. But Egypt doesn't run Gaza. Israel does.

Gaza is Israel's bed and Israel will eventually lie in it.
Here's a video of the Attack on the Mavi Marmara where 9 peace activists were murdered by Israeli soldiers for having the cheek to deliver relief to the besieged population of Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7UN4DO1pL5E

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: theticklemister on February 27, 2013, 09:31:24 PM
Me mate went out to Gaza there the other day from Derry. I gave him around 20 GAA rigs from local clubs and far off counties (use to collect them), which have become old or I do not wear anymore to give to the children out there.He said he will take a few pics and email me them so hopefully i'll get them posted up on here.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 27, 2013, 09:43:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 27, 2013, 09:27:07 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 27, 2013, 09:18:14 PM

Cruel siege on Gaza by neighboring state: Tunnels, flooded with raw sewage, now to be destroyed


The smuggling tunnels linking Gaza to Egypt are a security threat and must be destroyed, a Jerusalem Cairo court ruled on Tuesday, responding to a petition brought by a group of activists in the wake of rocket firing and cross border attacks on Israel a cross-border attack, by jihadist elements who infiltrated from Gaza through the tunnels, that killed 16 Egyptian border guards in August.


The Israeli Egyptian court ruling makes it obligatory that the government destroy the tunnels, according to Reuters.

Israel Egypt cannot tolerate a porous border that will continue to destabilize the Sinai Peninsula, Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi's national security adviser reportedly said.

Gaza, home to roughly 1.7 million people, has lived with border restrictions since Hamas's violent takeover of the territory in 2007. Smuggling under the 15-kilometer border has circumvented official crossings and bypassed restrictions for many years.

Restrictions on the influx of goods into the territory has prompted Palestinians in Gaza to smuggle in luxury goods, weapons and cash through the illegal tunnels. Hamas officials are known to collect fees from tunnel operators.

An estimated 30% of goods that reach Gaza come through the tunnels

An Israeli Egyptian lawyer, Wael Hamdy, instigated the case because he was "worried about the state of national security" in his country after terror attacks prompted by lawlessness in the Sinai desert region.

The lawyer also said that, in addition to recent efforts by Jerusalem the Muslim Brotherhood-led government in Cairo to close some tunnels,  Israel Egypt has recently resorted to other draconian and inhumane measures such flooding some of the more than 2000 active tunnel with raw sewage.




The systematic siege on Gaza's lifeline to the outside world has been met with fierce condemnation silence from pro-Palestinian groups, assorted "human rights" organizations and, even more strangely, the Guardian.

http://cifwatch.com/ (http://cifwatch.com/)

If Israel were to flood these tunnels, then the usual suspects on here would be up in arms, but when it's Egypt, it's A.O.K.
Very poor form from Egypt. But Egypt doesn't run Gaza. Israel does.

Gaza is Israel's bed and Israel will eventually lie in it.
Here's a video of the Attack on the Mavi Marmara where 9 peace activists were murdered by Israeli soldiers for having the cheek to deliver relief to the besieged population of Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7UN4DO1pL5E

I can't think why Israeli soldiers fired on these poor defenseless humanitarians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 27, 2013, 10:02:16 PM
Continuing the series "Judaism today" here's a video where a Jewish settler explains to his Palestinian neighbours
"if you behave youselves you can be our slaves when the Messiah comes"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEgKT0cIOZk&feature=player_embedded

and that will now be justified by our resident Zionist. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 27, 2013, 10:16:54 PM
Why would I want to justify the Israeli equivalent to Willie Fraser?

Bizzaro
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on February 28, 2013, 12:05:03 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 27, 2013, 10:16:54 PM
Why would I want to justify the Israeli equivalent to Willie Fraser?

Bizzaro

I am still convinced you are from Hammas.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Dougal Maguire on February 28, 2013, 12:08:52 AM
I'm convinced he's the Israeli equivalent of Willie Fraser
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 28, 2013, 05:59:53 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on February 27, 2013, 05:31:44 PM
A Derry Palestinian support group has donated a minibus to a school in the Gaza Strip.

The 'Derry to Gaza' group raised money throughout the north west to purchase the vehicle, which will now form part of a land convoy travelling to Gaza to bring aid to the locals.

Members and supporters of the group gathered at Free Derry Corner on Friday afternoon to see the vehicle off as it began the journey to Gaza.

Betty Doherty from the group said it was the third time people from the city have taken part in a land convoy to Gaza.

"This will be the third vehicle we have delivered; first was the ambulance in 2009/10 just after operation 'cast lead,' and then two years ago we also delivered a minibus to a deaf school in the Gaza Strip," she said.

Ms Doherty said the group also donated tools to the Gazan people.

"Along with the minibus we will also be concentrating on construction tools as there is a severe shortage of tools available in Gaza even to carry out maintenance work, this is due to the blockade which still remains in place as part of Israel's collective punishment policy against the people of Gaza," she explained.

She also said the Gaza to Derry group will continue to support the Palestinian people with future projects.

"This convoy is aimed at sending solidarity and easing the suffering of the illegally imposed blockade in whatever small way it can. We realize that sending aid has not and will not bring an end to the siege on Gaza. However we are in contact with the Truth justice Peace group, and will be working with them in summer on a project that aims to set up trade between Gaza and the rest of the world," she said.

She thanked everyone from across the north west who supported the fund raising appeal. "We would like to take this opportunity to thank the children of Gaelscoil Bhun Crannacha, the people of Derry for their support and everyone involved in organizing and fund raising for this project," she saidt
Fair play. When groups like that one in Derry send help to Gaza it is about more than just equipmwnt. It tells the people in Gaza that they are not forgotten and that Israel's story is bs. It is like the Magdalen Laundries. Innocent people hidden away from the world, in this case because they are not Jewish.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on February 28, 2013, 01:26:02 PM

I read this book a couple of years ago. Here is a review by someone who captures it perfectly.


Pictures Worth a Thousand Lives

A review of The Other War: Israelis, Palestinians and the Struggle for Media Supremacy, by Stephanie Gutmann


By Joseph Tartakovsky

Posted January 6, 2006

Stephanie Gutmann is a talented American journalist who has covered the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for a variety of publications. The Other War is a carefully researched, on-the-ground account of the media skirmishes that take place each day and collectively determine how that conflict is portrayed to the world. Her book, detailed and convincing, is written with a wry wit that makes it a pleasure to read, despite the gravity of her subject.

The first half of The Other War is a series of vivid reconstructions of the major incidents in the Second Intifada, which the late Yasser Arafat launched in fall 2000. Parallel to the "actual ground war in which people died," she writes, "there was a war of competing narratives played out in the mass media." Her argument is that this war of narratives is often the more consequential of the two. Of course, propaganda wars in concert with real wars have been in fashion since Moses said some things about the Amalekites, and on the same territory no less. But after 35 centuries, something changed. "[T]he first Gulf War happened and television producers discovered world conflict as a riveting form of 'reality programming.'" Technology was the enabling factor: "Satellites, digital cameras and the internet made transmission of text and visual content nearly instantaneous." Today's media war is driven by the same ancient impulses, but now, like the technology on which it relies, it is instant and infinite.

Gutmann believes that Israel has been steadily defeated on the media front, and with deadly consequences. In March 2002, for instance, Israeli army planners were preparing a full-scale assault against West Bank terrorist networks. But they recalled the public-relations pummeling the country had endured during the previous two years, in which the United Nations, Amnesty International, Physicians for Human Rights, and others routinely condemned Israel for "excessive force." And so, instead of lightning air strikes, Operation Defensive Shield relied on door-to-door raids, resulting in the deaths of 23 Israeli soldiers. Military superiority over its enemies is no advantage if Israel is continually dissuaded from using it.

In the media war, Israel has three disadvantages. The first is an open society, which allows reporters (and filmmakers and activists and human-rights observers) the freedom to roam, record, and interview in first-world comfort. This has saddled Israel with what may be the world's highest per capita concentration of reporters. Jerusalem is host to 350 permanent foreign news bureaus, as many as New York, London, or Moscow; the volume of reportage on Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank is 75 times greater than on any other area of comparable population. This obsessive attention necessarily distorts, by casting the Israel-Palestinian war in a theatric, world-historical light.

In the last decade, around 4,500 Israeli and Palestinian lives have been lost to the fighting. The Russo-Chechen war has killed 50,000 (11 times as many), the Darfur crisis has killed 180,000 (40 times as many), and the Congolese civil war has killed 3.5 million (778 times as many). But very few Americans can call to mind images of the ghastly violence in Chechnya, Sudan, or Congo—or even identify the warring parties—because these are places so dangerous that the New York Times simply cannot responsibly send a reporter there, much less a bureau.

* * *

If freedom is disadvantageous, this goes double when you happen to abut a shameless, propagandizing Arab dictatorship. According to Gutmann, the Palestinian Authority under Arafat used "the combat theatre (the West Bank, Gaza, and inside Israel) as a kind of soundstage." Those famous scenes of Palestinian boys with rocks confronting soldiers, for example, are usually choreographed. Palestinian youths, exhorted by parents, teachers, and their televisions to pelt Israeli soldiers, are so conscious of the media presence themselves that they often don't start in with the stones until photographers arrive. Israeli soldiers are actually forewarned of clashes when film crews suddenly materialize. (Coalition forces have experienced the same phenomenon in Iraq.)

How do these reporters or photographers, on a quest for dramatic stories and footage, know where the "spontaneous" violence is to "erupt"? One or another foot soldier in their "small army of Palestinian fixers" is tipped off by the attackers. The Associated Press, Reuters, and Agence France-Press (which together supply 80% of news images to the world media) require the assistance of natives who speak the local language, know who's who, and can get things done. These hired locals, in turn, make decisions about where to drive and what to translate (or leave un-translated).

The Palestinian regime isn't brutal in the way of Saddam Hussein's Iraq, but its operatives are trained in the same school of media manipulation. On September 12, 2001, as the Middle East awoke to the attacks in New York and Washington, D.C., Palestinians in several cities took to the streets. The celebration in Nablus, estimated at 3,000 people, was filmed by an A.P. photographer who forwarded the footage to his bureau in Jerusalem. Before it hit the wire, the photographer called his bureau again, this time sitting in the Nablus governor's office with guns to his head. The reporter lived, but the truth did not. The A.P. was told by the Palestinian Authority that it "could not guarantee their safety" in the future unless the A.P. learned to be "more careful."

Regime propaganda is pervasive. TV spots feature inspirational poetry like "how beautiful is the scent of the land, which is fed from the waterfall of blood, springing from an angry body." In April 2002, an Israeli drone flying above a funeral procession in the city of Jenin caught on tape a Palestinian corpse falling off his bier, reproving his handlers, then hopping back on. It happened again in the midst of a crowd, sending bystanders fleeing in terror. It was part of an effort to inflate both the body count and the number of photo-ops.

Israel's third disadvantage is media convention itself. Gutmann reminds us that all news is constructed: "Behind every picture there is a long story and a regiment of people who brought that particular picture, of all possible pictures, to you." And construction is rarely better than its architects: "producers sitting in carpeted, climate-controlled studios in New York and London are making war their subject…. [A]nd journalists, dumped on the ground with little prior knowledge, are forced to condense and 'package' terribly complex and crucial events." The general leftism in the news media gives reporters and producers many ways of introducing their bias into the simplified narrative: "David and Goliath, Poor versus Rich, the Third World versus Western Colonialism, Man versus Machine, even you-in-third-grade versus those-guys-who-always-beat-you-up after school." With Israel and the Palestinians, the overall result is "Large Mechanized Brutes versus Small Vulnerable Brown People."

* * *

The second half of The Other War is a series of introductions to the cast of characters in this Middle East media drama, among them naïve and flamboyant journalists, venturesome photographers, spin doctors, soldiers and terrorists, and Gutmann's personal "fixer," renamed for his protection. Her interview with the Jerusalem Post's Khaled Abu Toameh, probably the most famous Palestinian journalist, is particularly trenchant, not least because unlike any other Palestinian working within reach of the Palestinian regime, Toameh seems uniquely able to say whatever he pleases. (Gutmann says he is protected from on high by Israelis.)

Two of Gutmann's "case studies" from the beginning of the Second Intifada illustrate the character of this media war and the obstacles that Israel faces: the shooting death of a young Palestinian, and the lynching of two Israelis. According to CBS News's Richard Roth, these two episodes became "defining symbols of the conflict for those on each side."

On September 30, 2000, film footage became available to the world showing a Palestinian boy, Mohammed al-Dura, who, cradled in his father's arms, is shot by Israeli soldiers. Or so it seemed. Subsequent analysis, based especially on firing angles and ballistics examinations, called the story into doubt. Israel, in fact, was probably not responsible for the shooting. But by the time the Israeli army released the findings about its unlikely guilt, the Pietà -like image had zipped around the world, eventually appearing on a Belgian postage stamp, inspiring renamed streets and squares across the Arab world, and co-starring in the propaganda film extolling the execution of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.

On October 12, 2000, less than two weeks after the al-Dura incident, two Israeli reservists took a wrong turn while driving home and were arrested by Palestinian police, taken to the local station, and lynched by a mob. One photographer happened onto the scene:



Within moments [the crowd was] in front of me and, to my horror, I saw that it was a body, a man they were dragging by the feet. The lower part of his body was on fire and the upper part had been shot at, and the head beaten so badly that it was a pulp, like red jelly…. My God, I thought, they've killed this guy. He was dead, he must have been dead, but they were still beating him, madly, kicking his head. They were like animals.


The crowd tore the photographer's camera from him and smashed it. But a colleague managed to capture the infamous image of one of the murderers holding up his bloody hands for a cheering crowd.

The two scenes provided visual scripture from which reporters sermonized about symmetry, suffering on both sides, and cycles of violence. But Gutmann discerns the tragedy, for Israel, precisely in the asymmetry:


The images were frequently paired—by the news media. But it was a forced symmetry, created by the media for its convenience and because it was more soothing and less complicated to represent the situations as the same. Consider just the two pieces of videotape by themselves, which was all anyone had to work with at this time: In 'Ramallah' we actually see perpetrators at work—men hoisting a body to a window ledge, then shoving it off the ledge to a crowd below, whom we then see all too clearly stomping and stabbing it. In 'al-Dura,' however, we see a boy collapsing, apparently shot. That is all. In one story, most of the who, what, where and why is answered. But in 'al-Dura,' virtually everything, except that two people were shot at in front of a wall, is essentially a mystery.



Less of a mystery is that the "al-Dura" cameraman became a minor celebrity, treated to interviews at European media conferences. The "Ramallah" cameraman, on the other hand, remains unknown, while death threats forced his bureau chief to flee the region.

* * *

Towards the end of her book, Gutmann details some of Israel's long-overdue—and successful—efforts to reverse the tide in the media war. Because her observations throughout are so scrupulous and clear-eyed, her belief that things are taking a turn for the better is encouraging, even if it remains a little hard to believe.

As Gutmann says, nearly every evil of the last three centuries—racism, apartheid, militarism, colonialism, fascism, ethnic cleansing, genocide—is routinely invoked against Israel. These are not so much criticisms of policy, mind you, but of Israel's existence, for it is understood that regimes dedicated to such evil deserve to be eliminated, not reformed. Are such criticisms confined to the political fringes? If they were, Gutmann wouldn't be able to cite a 2004 poll in which 68% of Germans agreed that Israel now conducts a "war of extermination" against Palestinians. There are ten times as many Palestinians today as in 1920, I might point out to the Germans, but fewer Jews.

At the close of The Other War, Gutmann writes: "Looking at the virulent, vituperative tone of European coverage, and particularly at how openly jeering it grows when Israel tries to defend itself in the media war, it is hard to imagine that any Israeli public relations staff with any amount of resources at its disposal could have an impact on Europe." She's right; there must be something more to it, and she alludes, briefly, to anti-Semitism. Earlier in the book, she mentions the hard Left's fixation with Israel and the brutality of Arab propaganda. But each receives only glancing notice. The logical next step—accounting for the forces behind and beyond the media—is outside the scope of her important book, but nevertheless essential to the whole truth about "the other war."


https://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1249/article_detail.asp (https://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1249/article_detail.asp)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on February 28, 2013, 02:53:24 PM
"Gutmann believes that Israel has been steadily defeated on the media front, and with deadly consequences"

That's because the Israeli story is bollocks and thinking people can't be expected to sell it.   

As Gutmann says, nearly every evil of the last three centuries—racism, apartheid, militarism, colonialism, fascism, ethnic cleansing, genocide—is routinely invoked against Israel.

Racism- Jew only roads
Apartheid- the West Bank
Militarism- the IDF recruitment system
Colonialism- the settlers, the whole notion that the land of the palestinians belongs to all the Jews everywhere
Fascism- patience, my dear 
Ethnic cleansing - 1948 
Genocide - not yet
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 02, 2013, 12:33:52 PM
Report: 40-year-old Palestinian prisoner dies in PA custody
By JPOST.COM STAFF

03/02/2013 14:01


A 40-year-old Palestinian prisoner being held in Palestinian Authority custody in Jericho died on Friday, Palestinian news agency Ma'an cited a senior Palestinian official as saying.

Ayman Mohammad Sharif Samara, who was detained on charges of assault, was reportedly suffering from diabetes, hypertension and other medical conditions.

Ma'an reported that the PA attorney-general denied Samara was tortured or beaten during interrogations and said an autopsy will be performed on his body.

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=305067 (http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=305067)


I demand an independent inquiry and that UN security council pass a resolution that palestine should be carpet bombed. No other action will be good enough. It's bad enough al aqsa brigade members dying in Israeli jails, without PA jailors torturing and killing their own civilian prisoners. What is the world coming to?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Dougal Maguire on March 02, 2013, 12:38:10 PM
The irony is that the Israelis have in the past carried out acts of the very nature you describe for much less
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 03, 2013, 03:55:53 PM
Apartheid anyone?

Israel introduces 'Palestinian only' bus lines, following complaints from Jewish settlers


Starting on Monday, certain buses running from the West Bank into central Israel will have separate lines for Jews and Arabs.

The Afikim bus company will begin operating Palestinian-only bus lines from the checkpoints to Gush Dan to prevent Palestinians from boarding buses with Jewish passengers. Palestinians are not allowed to enter settlements, and instead board buses from several bus stops on the Trans-Samaria highway.

Last November, Haaretz reported that the Transportation Ministry was looking into such a plan due to pressure from the late mayor of Ariel, Ron Nahman, and the head of the Karnei Shomron Local Council. They said residents had complained that Palestinians on their buses were a security risk.

The buses will begin operating Monday morning at the Eyal crossing to take the Palestinians to work in Israel. Transportation Ministry officials are not officially calling them segregated buses, but rather bus lines intended to relieve the distress of the Palestinian workers. Ynet has reported that fliers are being distributed to Palestinian workers notifying them of the coming changes.

Any Palestinian who holds an entrance permit to the State of Israel is allowed by law to use public transportation. Officials at the Samaria and Judea District Police have said there is no change in the operation of the rest of the buses, nor is there any intention to remove Palestinians from other bus lines. But Haaretz has in the past reported incidents when Palestinians were taken off of buses, and witnesses at checkpoints say that such incidents are ongoing.

Ofra Yeshua-Lyth is a member of Machsom Watch, a female advocacy group monitoring West Bank checkpoints. She says that recently, Bus 286 from Tel Aviv to Samaria arrived at a checkpoint filled with Palestinian workers. She filed the following report:

"Police officer Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Shai Zecharia stops the bus at the bus stop. Soldiers order all the Palestinians off the bus. The first thing they do is collect all their identity cards as they get off. One by one, the Palestinians are told to go away from the bus stop and walk to the Azzun Atma checkpoint, which is about 2.5 kilometers away from the Shaar Shomron interchange. All of them responded with restraint and sadness, at most asking why. Here and there they received answers such as, 'You're not allowed on Highway 5' and 'You're not allowed on public transportation.' Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Zecharia gave some vital information to one of the older Palestinians who had arrived there, telling him: You should ride in special vans, not on Israeli buses."

In response to the report, the Transportation Ministry said it "has not issued any instruction or prohibition that prevents Palestinian workers from riding the public bus lines in Israel or in Judea and Samaria. Furthermore, the Transportation Ministry is not authorized to prevent any passangers from riding those lines."

"The two new lines that will be run as of tomorrow (Monday) are intended to improve the services to Palestinian workers that enter Israel via the Eyal Crossing," the ministry's statement continued, adding that the new lines will replace the "pirate" driving services who have been transporting Palestinian workers "at exorbitant prices and in an irregular fashion."

According to the ministry, the new lines will depart from the Tzofim area near Qalqilyah and will transport workers to their places of work in the Sharon region and Tel Aviv, at "especially cheap prices." For example, the tariff for traveling to Kfar Sava or Raanana will be NIS 5.1, and to Tel Aviv will cost NIS 10.6. This is compared to some NIS 40 that passengers have been charged by the private transportation services for each direction, the ministry said.

"The new lines will lessen the burden that has formed on buses as a result of the increase in numbers of working permits provided to Palestinians, who are permitted to work in Israel and will contribute to the improvements of services, for the betterment of Israelis and Palestinians as one", the statement said.

The Samaria and Judea District Police have yet to respond to the report.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-introduces-palestinian-only-bus-lines-following-complaints-from-jewish-settlers-1.506869
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 03, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Hypocrisy anyone?




Custody Deaths: A Tale Of Two Places

While the death of a Palestinian in an Israeli jail brings global headlines – are those in Palestinian jails met with silence?

4:28pm UK, Thursday 28 February 2013


Tim Marshall

Foreign Affairs Editor




The death of another Palestinian in Israeli custody has quite understandably generated headlines in many countries, including Israel.

It is the subject of questions in the Israeli parliament, and debate about Israel's human rights record.

Contrast this with a subject which rarely gets headlines, and which fails to spark debate; the conditions of Palestinians in Palestinian jails. Few people speak for them, their fate does not generate demonstrations or agonised debate, nor righteous anger in the outside world.

The circumstances surrounding the death of Arafat Jaradat,  in an Israeli prison are contested.

The Israeli government initially said he died of a heart attack. A Palestinian doctor, present at the post-mortem, said he died under torture at the hands of the Shin Bet security service. The results of the post-mortem will be made public next week and the Israelis say they may allow international observers access to the documentation.
Thousands attended the funeral of Mr Jaradat
The Palestinian minister of prisoners said there were signs of torture on several parts of Mr Jaradat's body. The Israeli health ministry responded that the marks could have been caused by medics attempting to resuscitate the prisoner - an explanation his family rejects.

Whatever the truth, there has been an outpouring of anger with demonstrations in the West Bank, denunciations in the media, and a symbolic one-day hunger strike by 3,000 Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

The Israelis have called for calm, but the situation is volatile and there may be violent clashes in the coming days if protests continue.

The anger - and the volume of the debate - is partially due to the status of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons among the Palestinian population. Many of them are regarded as heroes in the struggle for statehood, a view shared by campaigners abroad.

For ordinary Palestinians, demonstrating against Israel can be inherently dangerous as they often end up confronting Israeli troops, but it does not bring them into conflict with their own government, and that bring us to the untold story.

Palestinians are well aware that few people will stand up for them if they are taken into the police stations and prisons run by the Palestinian authorities in either Gaza or the West Bank. They know that torture in these establishments is routine and that deaths in custody occur there as well.

For example, Ibrahim Akram al A'araj was beaten to death in a Gaza police station in 2011. In the same year, Hassan Muhammad al Hamedi died after being tortured by police, and Adel Saleh Rizeq Rizeq died in police custody. His family said he had been tortured to death but the police said he drank chlorine.

The Independent Commission for Human Rights, the official ombudsman for Palestine, has documented the hundreds of illegal detentions and beatings administered by a Palestinian police force in the West Bank, which is both funded and trained by the EU.

Between January 2009 and July 2012, it received 584 complaints of torture and inhuman treatment in the West Bank alone. Despite the volume of complaints, Human Rights Watch says it cannot find a single case in which a Palestinian official has been punished for serious abuse.

The Palestinian authorities are said to use the "Shabah" as a routine method of torture. This is where the detainee is forced into excruciatingly painful stress positions for prolonged periods.

The Shabah was used by the Israelis as well but was banned by the Israeli Supreme Court in 1999. However, Palestinian prisoners and several activist groups say the Israelis still engage in torture on a regular basis.

If the allegation that Arafat Jaradat, died under torture is ever proved, it would generate more headlines and, hopefully, criminal proceedings. But who will speak for the Palestinians suffering in Palestinian jails? Human Rights Watch will, Amnesty International (of which this writer is a member) will, the Independent Commission for Human Rights will. And most of the people who would publicise the brutality of Mr Jaradat's death will ignore them.


http://news.sky.com/story/1058280/custody-deaths-a-tale-of-two-places (http://news.sky.com/story/1058280/custody-deaths-a-tale-of-two-places)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 03, 2013, 05:01:17 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 03, 2013, 03:55:53 PM
Apartheid anyone?

Israel introduces 'Palestinian only' bus lines, following complaints from Jewish settlers


Starting on Monday, certain buses running from the West Bank into central Israel will have separate lines for Jews and Arabs.

The Afikim bus company will begin operating Palestinian-only bus lines from the checkpoints to Gush Dan to prevent Palestinians from boarding buses with Jewish passengers. Palestinians are not allowed to enter settlements, and instead board buses from several bus stops on the Trans-Samaria highway.

Last November, Haaretz reported that the Transportation Ministry was looking into such a plan due to pressure from the late mayor of Ariel, Ron Nahman, and the head of the Karnei Shomron Local Council. They said residents had complained that Palestinians on their buses were a security risk.

The buses will begin operating Monday morning at the Eyal crossing to take the Palestinians to work in Israel. Transportation Ministry officials are not officially calling them segregated buses, but rather bus lines intended to relieve the distress of the Palestinian workers. Ynet has reported that fliers are being distributed to Palestinian workers notifying them of the coming changes.

Any Palestinian who holds an entrance permit to the State of Israel is allowed by law to use public transportation. Officials at the Samaria and Judea District Police have said there is no change in the operation of the rest of the buses, nor is there any intention to remove Palestinians from other bus lines. But Haaretz has in the past reported incidents when Palestinians were taken off of buses, and witnesses at checkpoints say that such incidents are ongoing.

Ofra Yeshua-Lyth is a member of Machsom Watch, a female advocacy group monitoring West Bank checkpoints. She says that recently, Bus 286 from Tel Aviv to Samaria arrived at a checkpoint filled with Palestinian workers. She filed the following report:

"Police officer Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Shai Zecharia stops the bus at the bus stop. Soldiers order all the Palestinians off the bus. The first thing they do is collect all their identity cards as they get off. One by one, the Palestinians are told to go away from the bus stop and walk to the Azzun Atma checkpoint, which is about 2.5 kilometers away from the Shaar Shomron interchange. All of them responded with restraint and sadness, at most asking why. Here and there they received answers such as, 'You're not allowed on Highway 5' and 'You're not allowed on public transportation.' Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Zecharia gave some vital information to one of the older Palestinians who had arrived there, telling him: You should ride in special vans, not on Israeli buses."

In response to the report, the Transportation Ministry said it "has not issued any instruction or prohibition that prevents Palestinian workers from riding the public bus lines in Israel or in Judea and Samaria. Furthermore, the Transportation Ministry is not authorized to prevent any passangers from riding those lines."

"The two new lines that will be run as of tomorrow (Monday) are intended to improve the services to Palestinian workers that enter Israel via the Eyal Crossing," the ministry's statement continued, adding that the new lines will replace the "pirate" driving services who have been transporting Palestinian workers "at exorbitant prices and in an irregular fashion."

According to the ministry, the new lines will depart from the Tzofim area near Qalqilyah and will transport workers to their places of work in the Sharon region and Tel Aviv, at "especially cheap prices." For example, the tariff for traveling to Kfar Sava or Raanana will be NIS 5.1, and to Tel Aviv will cost NIS 10.6. This is compared to some NIS 40 that passengers have been charged by the private transportation services for each direction, the ministry said.

"The new lines will lessen the burden that has formed on buses as a result of the increase in numbers of working permits provided to Palestinians, who are permitted to work in Israel and will contribute to the improvements of services, for the betterment of Israelis and Palestinians as one", the statement said.

The Samaria and Judea District Police have yet to respond to the report.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-introduces-palestinian-only-bus-lines-following-complaints-from-jewish-settlers-1.506869

Cheaper fares, regular direct route and replacing illegal services. Give me apartheid any day.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 03, 2013, 06:04:24 PM
BDB why do you bother typing? Is there not someone, somewhere that you can oppress?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 03, 2013, 06:24:41 PM

Op-Ed: Note To Kerry: Kyrzakhstan & Palestine Are Both Myths


Published: Saturday, March 02, 2013 9:12 PM

And"East Jerusalem" does not actually exist. "East Jerusalem" is what the Bible means when it refers to Jerusalem.




Moshe Phillips, AFSI
Moshe Phillips is a member of the executive committee of the Philadelphia Chapter of Americans for a Safe Israel / AFSI. The chapter's website is at: www. phillyafsi. com and Moshe's blog can be found at phillyafsi. blogtownhall. com.
► More from this writer





On John Kerry's first international trip as U.S. Secretary of State he made a gaffe worthy of Joe Biden. The headline of London's Telegraph read "John Kerry invents country of Kyrzakhstan"and the Daily Mail asked "Where's that exactly, Mr Secretary of State? John Kerry makes up new country 'Kyrzakhstan."

But  more than just fodder for the British press, Kerry's blunder exposes the truth that he is not the expert on international affairs that the mainstream media, Obama Administration and J Street all vehemently claimed.


And at this time, when Kerry created Kyrzakhstan out of thin air, there is no time like the present to remind Kerry and the rest of the denizens of Foggy Bottom that "Palestine" and "East Jerusalem" are just as mythical as "Kyrzakhstan."


Let's recall what actor, comedian and pundit Larry Miller (Pretty Woman, The Nutty Professor and The Princess Diaries) wrote in an April 2002 essay titled "Whosoever Blesses Them: The Intifada and its Defenders" for The Weekly Standard (it went viral and by mistake was almost always credited to Dennis Miller):


"The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like 'Wiccan', 'Palestinian' sounds ancient , but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no  'Palestinians' then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no 'Palestinians' then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the 'Palestinians,' weeping for their deep bond with their lost 'land' and 'nation.' So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word 'Palestinian' any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped."


(Larry Miller's original essay can be found here:)


Another lesson important for Secretary Kerry to hear before he visits Israel is that "East Jerusalem" does not actually exist. "East Jerusalem" is what the Bible means when it refers to Jerusalem.



Let's not use the word 'Palestinian' any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped.
Words, and especially names, have meaning. Especially in today's ever changing Middle East.

So, just what is "East Jerusalem"and why is adding the word "East" to describe part of Judaism's holiest city and Israel's capital of any serious magnitude?


East and West in Israel are not simple geographic terms as they are in the U.S. Northeast Philadelphia, the Upper East Side in Manhattan and East L.A. are used to denote neighborhoods and sections of a city. In Israel, where Judea and Samaria have been labeled as the "West Bank", things are different. The term "West Bank" was created by Arab propagandists to de-emphasize the area's inherent Jewishness and to disassociate the land from the Bible and the State of Israel. East Jerusalem was similarly invented.


What is "East Jerusalem"?


In the Christian Bible. every single instance when a specific location in Jerusalem is mentioned. it refers to an area that many at the State Department would now like to see given to the "Palestinian" Arabs. The term "East Jerusalem" cannot be found in a Christian Bible. And that is because "East Jerusalem" is about as real as Santa Claus.


The prayer "Next Year in Jerusalem!" that Jews recite at the close of the Yom Kippur service and at the highpoint of the Passover Seder refers to ancient parts of Jerusalem that the State Department Arabists include as part of this mythical creation of "East Jerusalem" in its unholy "Palestinian" Arab state. There is no "East Jerusalem" in Judaism.


According to Wikipedia: "East Jerusalem refers to the part of Jerusalem captured by Jordan in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, and subsequently by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War. It includes Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher."


So, "East Jerusalem" is Jerusalem's Old City and its surrounding neighborhoods. The original and oldest parts of Jerusalem are in this "East Jerusalem".


There has never been in history an independent municipal entity known as "East Jerusalem" just as there has never been an independent national entity known as "Palestine" -  just as there has never been a Kyrzakhstan.


When anti-Israel extremists created the term "East Jerusalem", it was for one reason. They wanted to rip Israel's capital apart in order to defeat Israel. This effort tragically gained full force with the Oslo Accords. This was fully explained in the B'tzedek Online Journal on December 30, 1996 in an editorial titled "The War Has Just Begun":


"The Oslo Accords are indeed the fulfillment of the PLO "salami" strategy. That is to say, Israel shall be destroyed not through overt military action of Arab nations, but through the whittling away of Israeli resolve and slow but determined territorial expansion of a Palestinian state. Slice by slice Israel will be carved away by the knife of terrorism and world opinion, both deftly handled by the Israeli created Palestinian entity."


The very name Jerusalem means city of peace, city of completeness and city of perfection. This was something that Bible-believing Americans of all faiths in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were taught. See Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (1869) and Easton's Bible Dictionary (1897) for more on the fascinating derivation of the name Jerusalem.


A  Jerusalem that is not complete is just not Jerusalem.


As Secretary of State, Kerry can do much to show he understands what Jerusalem really is. The U.S. government has failed to relocate the American Embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv for over ten years. The Jerusalem Embassy Act was passed by the U.S. Congress on October 23, 1995 and the law reads that "Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and the United States Embassy in Israel should be established in Jerusalem no later than May 31, 1999″.


"For Zion's sake I am not silent, and for Jerusalem's sake I do not rest," reads Isaiah 62:1. For Jerusalem's sake contact your Congressperson today and demand that he or she pressure John Kerry and the Obama Administration to honor the Jerusalem Embassy Act.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12960 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12960)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 03, 2013, 10:58:50 PM
The prayer "Next Year in Jerusalem!" that Jews recite at the close of the Yom Kippur service and at the highpoint of the Passover Seder

I can't believe that for more than  1800 years decent Jews prayed to God and God delivered them today's Israel. I can't believe they prayed for torture, for white phosphorous and fo people likem BDB to represent them. I can't believe Netanyahu and his fellow sociopaths have anything to do with religion.  I can't see what the point of all the praying was. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 04:23:49 PM
Who, exactly, is blockading Gaza?




Hamas closes Gaza crossing


Published today (updated) 04/03/2013 16:58






GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- The Hamas government in Gaza closed the Kerem Shalom crossing on Monday, despite the fact Israel had agreed to reopen it after a one week closure.

Israel closed the commercial crossing last Tuesday after a rocket was fired from Gaza toward Ashkelon in southern Israel, but agreed to reopen it Monday.

However, the border remained closed on the Palestinian side.

Officials in Gaza, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss the issue, said the Hamas government in Gaza has fired the company that operates the terminal after a dispute over the collection of customs revenue.

The officials told Ma'an that Hamas wants to keep the taxes, which are usually paid to the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.

Hamas has decided to appoint a new company to run the terminal, they said.

Truck drivers at Kerem Shalom told Ma'an that rivalries over control of the crossing were impeding their work, adding that they hoped the terminal would reopen soon.

Israel's Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories Eitan Dangot has told PA officials that Israel considers Hamas' appointment of a new company to run Kerem Shalom a security risk, the Israeli news site Ynet reported Monday.

Israel cooperated with the previous contractor because he operated the crossing on behalf of the PA, Ynet reported, noting that Israel will not coordinate with Hamas.

Ynet said that Hamas was demanding a tax of 170 shekels (around $46) for each truck that enters Gaza, to make up for lost profits from tunnel revenue after Cairo cracked down on smuggling under the Egyptian border.

Erez crossing

Meanwhile, Hamas is imposing new restrictions at the Erez crossing, the only passenger terminal on the Israeli border.

The government in Gaza announced Wednesday that residents must seek permission from the Ministry of Interior to enter Israel via the Erez crossing.

Palestinians already needed a permit from Israel to cross Erez.

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights criticized Hamas' decision.

"Freedom of movement is already severely restricted by Israel; travelers have to wait many hours before being allowed to pass through the crossing and they are subjected to humiliating treatment," PCHR said in a statement.

The Gaza-based group noted that Israeli authorities usually only granted Palestinians permits a few hours prior to their departure, and often the permits are only valid for one day.

"This makes it impossible for them to refer to the Ministry of Interior to obtain prior approval for their travel," PCHR said.


http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=571269 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=571269)


Disgusting. How are the poor wee palestinians supposed to get their gold plated Porches, iphone 5s and plasma screens now?



END THE SEIGE OF GAZA......NOW  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 04, 2013, 04:42:06 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 04:23:49 PM
Who, exactly, is blockading Gaza?

END THE SEIGE OF GAZA......NOW  ;D

Israel runs the siege

It takes a very long time to turn a regular area where people live regular lives into a centre of disease. It took Israel over 40 years. The first thing you need to do is shut down all threatening economic activity. anything that can help people improve their lives has to be destroyed.   

The Gaza Strip: A Case of Economic De-Development
Sara Roy
Journal of Palestine Studies,

http://www.palestine-studies.org/files/pdf/jps/1069.pdf

Great results


http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/un-report-gaza-won-t-be-liveable-by-2020-if-urgent-action-not-taken-1.461031

Gaza will no longer be "liveable" by 2020 unless urgent action is taken to improve water supply, power, health, and schooling, the United Nations' most comprehensive report on the Palestinian enclave said on Monday.
"Action needs to be taken now if Gaza is to be a liveable place in 2020 and it is already difficult now," UN humanitarian coordinator Maxwell Gaylard told journalists when the report was released on Monday.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
Who is flooding the tunnels with raw sewage?                           Not Israel.
Who guards the Philadelphi corridor?                                        Not Israel.
Who is losing a fortune, with the tunnels closed?                       Not Israel.
Who is starving their own people?                                            Not Israel.
Who is ultimately responsible for Gaza's plight?                         Not Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 04, 2013, 06:33:20 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
Who is flooding the tunnels with raw sewage?                           Not Israel.
Who guards the Philadelphi corridor?                                        Not Israel.
Who is losing a fortune, with the tunnels closed?                       Not Israel.
Who is starving their own people?                                            Not Israel.
Who is ultimately responsible for Gaza's plight?                         Not Israel.
israel controls the air over gaza, the sea to the west of gaza, the radio spectrum above gaza, the population registry, the calorific intake of Gazans and who lives and who dies in Gaza. Gaza is Israel's baby. Gaza is Judaism 2013.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2013, 06:33:20 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
Who is flooding the tunnels with raw sewage?                           Not Israel.
Who guards the Philadelphi corridor?                                        Not Israel.
Who is losing a fortune, with the tunnels closed?                       Not Israel.
Who is starving their own people?                                            Not Israel.
Who is ultimately responsible for Gaza's plight?                         Not Israel.
israel controls the air over gaza, the sea to the west of gaza, the radio spectrum above gaza, the population registry, the calorific intake of Gazans and who lives and who dies in Gaza. Gaza is Israel's baby. Gaza is Judaism 2013.
I think you'll find you're talking out of your bangle there pal. If Gazans are so malnourished, then why are the tunnels used for consumer goods, and not food? Hamas are responsible for more premature deaths in Gaza than Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 04, 2013, 10:11:52 PM
(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/RosaParks_zpsb81f2ed5.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 04, 2013, 10:15:54 PM
On the bus to Israeli apartheid

In 1896 the United States Supreme Court handed down one of its most shameful decisions in the case of Plessy v. Ferguson, rejecting the argument that the segregation between whites and blacks on trains in the state of Louisiana violated the principle of equality.

"We consider the underlying fallacy of the plaintiff's argument," the court wrote in words that today are considered to be one of the most embarrassing moments in U.S. judicial history, "to consist in the assumption that the enforced separation of the two races stamps the colored race with a badge of inferiority. If this be so, it is not by reason of anything found in the act, but solely because the colored race chooses to put that construction upon it."

The U.S. Supreme Court did not reject the notion that "separate but equal" can indeed be equal until more than half a century later. In the landmark case of Brown v. Board of Education, in 1954, it ruled that racial segregation in public schools violated the principle of equality before the law.

It took another two years before the change came to public transportation in the United States. On December 1, 1955 a black woman named Rosa Parks was arrested after refusing to give up her seat in the "colored" section of a crowded public bus in Montgomery, Alabama to a white passenger. The incident was the catalyst for the Montgomery Bus Boycott, a formative event of the U.S. civil rights movement. It led to the Supreme Court's 1956 decision extending the prohibition of segregation to public transportation and thereby reversing its 1896 ruling in Plessy v. Ferguson.

In Israel, in contrast, we have returned through the time tunnel to 1896: Palestinians are being directed off public buses in the West Bank, and on Monday, the Transportation Ministry introduced separate bus lines for Palestinians, to keep Palestinians who are traveling to work in Israel from riding the same bus lines as Jews.

The ministry, in a statement reminiscent of the U.S. Supreme Court circa 1896, says the lines are aimed at relieving the distress of the Palestinian workers.

In 2009 the High Court of Justice struck down a prohibition barring Palestinians from Route 443, a main artery of transportation between Jerusalem and central Israel, and restricting its use to Jewish settlers.

In its decision the High Court said that had this been the road's purpose, the Israel Defense Forces would not have been allowed to build it: International law forbids the army of an occupying power from planning and building road networks intended for its own citizens and not the inhabitants of the occupied territory.

Differing circumstances aside, the policy reversed by the High Court in the case of Route 443 is similar to the Transportation Ministry's new policy regarding certain bus lines, insofar as both involve the development of a means of transportation for the citizens of the occupying state and its separation from the local population. This violates the rules of international law whereby occupation is a temporary situation only, and the occupying power must administer the territory for the benefit of the local population.

In this sense the bus issue is only one more component of Israel's de facto annexation of the territories, an annexation accompanied by the creation of a regime of segregation – which is of course unequal – between Jews and Palestinians.

In her ruling on Route 443, then-Supreme Court President Dorit Beinisch commented that the petitioners' equation of the use of separate roads with South Africa's former apartheid policy was inappropriate.

But even if there are differences between the situation in the territories and the legal definition of apartheid, the bus segregation is another characteristic of a regime based on the separation of residence, movement and laws in accordance with the origin of the populations, and as such it brings Israel one step closer to apartheid.

In 2011 the High Court of Justice ruled on the so-called mehadrin buses, serving the ultra-Orthodox community, in which women were required to sit at the back of the bus.

"As I now read over these lines emphasizing this," wrote Justice Elyakim Rubinstein in reference to a Transportation Ministry directive prohibiting such segregation, "I am astounded that there was even a need to write them in the year 2010. Have the days of Rosa Parks, the African American woman who collapsed the racist segregation on an Alabama bus in 1955 returned?"

Today, despite the differences between the segregation on the mehadrin buses and the segregation in the territories, the answer to Rubinstein's question is yes, those days have returned. We have gone back to 1955 and in effect to 1896

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/on-the-bus-to-israeli-apartheid.premium-1.507171
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 04, 2013, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2013, 06:33:20 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
Who is flooding the tunnels with raw sewage?                           Not Israel.
Who guards the Philadelphi corridor?                                        Not Israel.
Who is losing a fortune, with the tunnels closed?                       Not Israel.
Who is starving their own people?                                            Not Israel.
Who is ultimately responsible for Gaza's plight?                         Not Israel.
israel controls the air over gaza, the sea to the west of gaza, the radio spectrum above gaza, the population registry, the calorific intake of Gazans and who lives and who dies in Gaza. Gaza is Israel's baby. Gaza is Judaism 2013.
I think you'll find you're talking out of your bangle there pal. If Gazans are so malnourished, then why are the tunnels used for consumer goods, and not food? Hamas are responsible for more premature deaths in Gaza than Israel.
44% of women in Gaza are anemic.

"If Gazans are so malnourished, then why are the tunnels used for consumer goods". There is a shopping centre in Gaza so there can be no malnutrition. Someone in Gaza bought an iphone so there is no malnutrition.
Zionism sickens me.  There were Nazis who would have been the Ball deBeavers of the 1940s talking about Jews the way you talk about Palestinians.  "There are grocery shops in the Warsaw ghetto. Nobody is hungry"/.

Maybe you are a Hamasnik. Maybe you want to show up Israel for what it is.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 10:22:27 PM
I think you'll find that the new buses put on are for palestinians only, with them able to use the regular services also. They pay a lower fare than previous, with a more regular service.  It is the Israelis that have a lesser service.


QuoteThe Israeli Transport Ministry said the two new lines would "improve public transport services for Palestinian workers entering Israel" and replace pirate buses charging them "exorbitant prices".

"The Ministry of Transport has not issued any instruction or prohibition that prevents Palestinian workers from traveling on public transport in Israel nor in Judea and Samaria," it said, referring to the West Bank.

"Furthermore, the Ministry of Transport is not authorized to prevent any passenger from using public transport services."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=571300 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=571300)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 10:29:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2013, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2013, 06:33:20 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
Who is flooding the tunnels with raw sewage?                           Not Israel.
Who guards the Philadelphi corridor?                                        Not Israel.
Who is losing a fortune, with the tunnels closed?                       Not Israel.
Who is starving their own people?                                            Not Israel.
Who is ultimately responsible for Gaza's plight?                         Not Israel.
israel controls the air over gaza, the sea to the west of gaza, the radio spectrum above gaza, the population registry, the calorific intake of Gazans and who lives and who dies in Gaza. Gaza is Israel's baby. Gaza is Judaism 2013.
I think you'll find you're talking out of your bangle there pal. If Gazans are so malnourished, then why are the tunnels used for consumer goods, and not food? Hamas are responsible for more premature deaths in Gaza than Israel.
44% of women in Gaza are anemic.

"If Gazans are so malnourished, then why are the tunnels used for consumer goods". There is a shopping centre in Gaza so there can be no malnutrition. Someone in Gaza bought an iphone so there is no malnutrition.
Zionism sickens me.  There were Nazis who would have been the Ball deBeavers of the 1940s talking about Jews the way you talk about Palestinians.  "There are grocery shops in the Warsaw ghetto. Nobody is hungry"/.

Maybe you are a Hamasnik. Maybe you want to show up Israel for what it is.
You have peddled that lie before. You know nothing.


Nutrition in the Ghettos

From the moment that the Jews were isolated from the Polish society and were surrounded by a fence, their food distribution was entirely controlled by the Germans. A strict food rationing was in effect. A working person was given food rationing that was sufficient barely for one person. In order to feed the sick and the old, they were put on the list of the producing people and their relatives had to cover for them by working even longer hours and producing a larger quota. The quantity of allocated food was insufficient and many basic food items were non existent in the ghetto. "The official ration in the ghetto probably amounted to about 800 calories a day per person. This was half the ration for non-Jewish Poles and a third the ration for Germans in Poland. As the Nazis knew, people cannot survive for very long on 800 calories a day (One peanut butter sandwich on white bread contains over 350 calories) (Feldman 149). A report on the food status of the Warsaw ghetto

http://cghs.dadeschools.net/ib_holocaust2001/Ghettoes/diet/diet.htm (http://cghs.dadeschools.net/ib_holocaust2001/Ghettoes/diet/diet.htm)



800 calories eh. Thats a third of what Israel was accused of feeding Gazans, until it was shown to be a lie. Maybe they should have got themselves a new tv or dishwasher.  ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 09:31:42 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 04, 2013, 10:29:38 PM


800 calories eh. Thats a third of what Israel was accused of feeding Gazans, until it was shown to be a lie. Maybe they should have got themselves a new tv or dishwasher.  ::)
[/quote]


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/2-279-calories-per-person-how-israel-made-sure-gaza-didn-t-starve.premium-1.470419


Israel court order forces state to reveal dry figures behind Gaza blockade
Israel's 'red lines' document for food consumption in the coastal Strip determined that 2,279 calories per person would keep Gazans from starving; official: state has right to determine who it assists.
By Amira Hass | Oct.17, 2012 | 8:00 AM
      

After a three-and-a-half-year legal battle waged by the Gisha human rights organization, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories has finally released a 2008 document that detailed its "red lines" for "food consumption in the Gaza Strip."
The document calculates the minimum number of calories necessary, in COGAT's view, to keep Gaza residents from malnutrition at a time when Israel was tightening its restrictions on the movement of people and goods in and out of the Strip,
including food products and raw materials.
"


http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/gazans-are-eating-too-well/

"Even after the writing of this document, Israel continued to brazenly claim that the occupation of Gaza had ended. The very fact that such a document was composed, whether it was used or not, points to a satanic way of thinking. But the reason that army didn't want this document made public had nothing to do with its diabolical content. Nor did it fear a public storm, which it knew wasn't likely to happen in a country afflicted with blindness. The reason the Israel Defense Forces was reluctant to publicize this document was because it would make Israel look even worse in world opinion than it already does. It's a matter of image, you know; the goyim shouldn't find out. It's not nice for the goyim to know how low Israeli racism could sink. The document details the "model formulated by the Health Ministry - according to average Israeli consumption," and the IDF plan for the Palestinians, whose figures were "adjusted to culture and experience" in Gaza. The IDF, the new "Israel food association," knows how to distinguish between what types of foods enlightened types need, and what the savages and natives need. More fruits and vegetables for the enlightened, more sugar and oil for the savages. Since they are so humane, they took into account "'sampling' by toddlers under the age of 2," by adding another 34 tons of food a day as charity that would save them from death. Though the people at the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories made mathematical calculations, from time to time their resolve weakened: At the end of 2008 they approved the entry of shampoo into Gaza, but not conditioner; hummus, but not pine nuts. Imagine that.
Now that the document has been released, it's time to attach names to it. The government headed by Ehud Olmert was the one that in 2007 decided to restrict the entry of goods into Gaza even further."


And you say that Gaza is not occupied. FFS


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 10:15:13 AM
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/2012-10-24/israels-formula-for-a-starvation-diet/

Who can doubt – given the experiences of Gaza over the past few years – that there exist in the Israeli military's archives other, still-classified documents setting out similar experiments in social engineering? Will future historians reveal that Israeli officials also pondered the fewest hours of electricity Gazans needed to survive, or the minimum amount of water, or the smallest living space per family, or the highest feasible levels of unemployment?
Such formulas presumably lay behind:

* the decision to bomb Gaza's only power station in 2006 and subsequently to block its proper repair;
* the refusal to approve a desalination plant, the only way to prevent overdrilling contaminating the Strip's underground water supply;
* the declaration of large swaths of farmland no-go areas, forcing the rural population into the already overcrowded cities and refugee camps;
* and the continuing blockade on exports, decimating Gaza's business community and ensuring the population remains dependent on aid.

It is precisely these policies by Israel that led the United Nations to warn in August that Gaza would be "uninhabitable" by 2020.

In fact, the rationale for the Red Lines document and these other measures can be found in a military strategy that found its apotheosis in Operation Cast Lead, the savage attack on Gaza in winter 2008-09.
The Dahiya doctrine was Israel's attempt to update its traditional military deterrence principle to cope with a changing Middle East, one in which the main challenge it faced was from asymmetrical warfare. The name Dahiya derives from a neighbourhood of Beirut Israel levelled in its 2006 attack on Lebanon.

This "security concept", as the Israeli army termed it, involves the wholesale destruction of a community's infrastructure to immerse it so deeply in the problems of survival and reconstruction that other concerns, including fighting back or resisting occupation, are no longer practicable.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: stew on March 05, 2013, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
It shows that things are so bad that they have the ready cash to splash on iphones. But they claim to be starving.

How many calories are in an iphone?

They might have bought them second hand!

Maybe the people in Gaza should exist only to eat, maybe they do't deserve to know that the world's government, the UN Nato and their fellow members of their faith have failed them, God forbid they get the opportunity to know what's going on in the world!
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 04:10:39 PM
Quote from: stew on March 05, 2013, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
It shows that things are so bad that they have the ready cash to splash on iphones. But they claim to be starving.

How many calories are in an iphone?

They might have bought them second hand!

Maybe the people in Gaza should exist only to eat, maybe they do't deserve to know that the world's government, the UN Nato and their fellow members of their faith have failed them, God forbid they get the opportunity to know what's going on in the world!

If you had read the thread you would have remembered that the phones were being bought before their official release date (at an obviously increased price) and not at some car boot sale. When are those of you that support the palestinian cause going to realise that you are being lied to? Have you not seen the pictures fron independent sources that show brand new shopping complexes, 5* hotels, bars, restaurants and amusement parks springing up all over Gaza? How can any human being complain about being forcibly starved, and yet have enough to by luxuries? Trying to to compare their right to know what's going on in the world to their "starvation", is bizzare in the extreme.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 05:08:32 PM

UN Cancels Gaza Marathon Over Discriminatory Women Policy

Gaza's third international marathon has been cancelled after Hamas refused to allow women to participate.


AAFont Size
By Rachel Hirshfeld
First Publish: 3/5/2013, 4:32 PM




2011 marathon in Gaza

AFP file


Gaza's third international marathon has been cancelled after Hamas refused to allow women to run, the UN agency for "Palestinian" refugees said on Tuesday.

UNRWA officials said more than 800 people, nearly half of them women, had signed up to participate in this year's race, which runs the entire length of the coastal territory and was to have taken place on April 10.

"UNRWA regrets to announce that it has had to cancel the third UNRWA marathon which was to be held on 10 April," a statement said, according to the AFP news agency.

"This disappointing decision follows discussions with the authorities in Gaza who have insisted that no women should participate."

While Israel faces ongoing accusations of "apartheid" and allegations of implementing discriminatory polices, the real perpetrators of such crimes are the Arab regimes and terrorist organizations like Hamas.

In fact, the PLO last week called for runners and sponsors of the 2013 Jerusalem Marathon to boycott the race, claiming support implies acceptance of Israel's "illegal annexation" of eastern Jerusalem.

UNRWA officials said 807 people had entered this year's race -- 551 locals and 256 international runners. Of that number, 385 are female -- 266 from Gaza and 119 from overseas.

Another 1,600 schoolchildren, girls and boys, were also to have joined the race.

UNRWA spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna told AFP that the decision to cancel was taken after the ruling Islamist movement refused to back down over the issue of women and men running together.

"Hamas refused to let women participate in this very important marathon. They told us about this condition several days ago and we went into long negotiations but we failed," he said.

"They pushed us to cancel the marathon and I'm very sorry because it is a very important event for Palestinian refugees."

Two international women runners participated in the first Gaza marathon in 2011, alongside hundreds of women and schoolgirls who joined the relay race or walked part of it, with more joining last year.

"Hamas claims that women have never been allowed to run, which is not true, then they decided that only local women could run. Then they decided not to let any women participate," a diplomatic source in Gaza told AFP.

A senior Hamas official confirmed the ban on women runners but expressed regret that UNRWA had cancelled the entire event.

"We regret this decision to cancel the marathon but we don't want men and women running together," said Abdessalam Siyyam, cabinet secretary of the Hamas government.

"We did not tell UNRWA to cancel the marathon and we haven't prevented it, but we laid down some conditions: We don't want women and men mixing in the same place," he told the news agency, citing Islamic law and traditions.

"We don't want any women running uncovered," he added, indicating the ban was only in place for female runners aged 16 and over.

UNRWA said it was working on an alternative program of events for those who had signed up for the race, which would have seen entrants running either the full 42-kilometre (26-mile) marathon, the half marathon or a 10-kilometre dash.

"UNRWA sincerely regrets the inconvenience this causes those who planned to participate in the marathon," the agency said.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165900 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165900)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 05:13:59 PM

Sunset over Gaza: A story about Palestinian misogyny Harriet Sherwood won't report


The Guardian's obsessively critical coverage of Israel contrasts greatly with the paucity of substantive stories at the paper about Gaza and the Palestinian territories, other than reports which can characterize Palestinians as being acted upon by Israelis.  Rarely are there reports which frame the Palestinians as complex, imperfect political actors in full possession of moral agency – a good illustration of the liberal racism which inspires so much of their institutionally skewed coverage of the region.   

While every perceived violation of Palestinian human rights by the Israeli government is reported, the routine disregard for the basic human rights of Palestinian women, gays and minorities (and Palestinian journalists) by Palestinian leaders is rarely reported.

Additionally, when Palestinians aren't portrayed as victims, as such, they are idealized – their culture and land is idealized and romanticized.

The following picture was posted by Harriet Sherwood, the Guardian's Jerusalem correspondent, on Twitter in early February:

So, while it's clear that Sherwood spends time on the ground in Gaza, her journalistic myopia is often on display in the stories she chooses to report, and those she chooses not to.

A recent example of a story, about Palestinians who criticize Hamas or the Palestinian Authority often risking arrest or violence, which Harriet Sherwood ignored, was reported by Palestinian journalist Khaled Abu Toameh, at Gatestone Institute.

Toameh noted that "physical attacks on Palestinian journalists in Gaza are not uncommon", and that just last month "a Palestinian Authority court sentenced 26-year-old Anas Said Awwad to one year in prison for insulting President Mahmoud Abbas on Facebook."

Toameh went on to reveal that Palestinian journalists he spoke to wanted the "the world to know that the crackdown on freedom of expression in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip is designed to hide the fact that Palestinians are governed by two repressive regimes that have no respect for human rights and democracy." 

Regarding the rights of women, Sherwood was one of the contributors in a Guardian report about International Women's Day published on March 8, 2012, titled "International Women's Day highlights hurdles obstructing women".  Yet, she used her space not to report on the culture of misogyny within the Palestinian run territories, but, rather, to focus attention on Israel's detention of a female Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist named Hana Shalabi.  Meanwhile, as we noted at the time, across the green line, and well beyond Sherwood's moral sympathy, the Palestinian Authority, using a clause in the Jordanian penal code still in effect in the West Bank, often exempts men from being punished for killing a female relative if she has brought dishonor to the family.

Given Sherwood's track record, it is likely she will similarly ignore recent news that the UNRWA sponsored 2013 Gaza Marathon (a charity event to raise money for programs aiding the children of Gaza), which was due to be held on April 10, has been cancelled following a decision by Hamas not to allow women to participate.


UNRWA website
(http://commentisfreewatch.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/unrwa.jpg?w=477&h=471)

Hamas has been cracking down on women's rights (and all behavior it deems contrary to Islam) since taking over Gaza in 2007.

Finally, it's interesting to note that Sherwood reported on the 2012 Gaza Marathon in a piece titled "Palestinian runner uses Gaza marathon to prepare for 2012 Olympics', so she's clearly familiar with the annual competition. Her report in 2012 began thusly:


Bahaa al-Farra will rise early on Thursday morning, pull on his running shoes and Lycra, and join hundreds of others taking part in the second Gaza marathon, spanning the length of the tiny Palestinian enclave.

For many, including around 2,000 children expected to run the course in 1km relays, it is a day of fun, a break in the bleak daily routine of life in Gaza. Others, mainly visitors from abroad, will be making political statements about the continued blockade by Israel.

As UNRWA's decision to cancel this year's marathon, due to the egregious misogyny of Hamas leaders, can't be blamed on Israel or the blockade, you will likely never read about it on the pages of the Guardian. 


http://cifwatch.com/ (http://cifwatch.com/)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 04:10:39 PM
Quote from: stew on March 05, 2013, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
It shows that things are so bad that they have the ready cash to splash on iphones. But they claim to be starving.

How many calories are in an iphone?

They might have bought them second hand!

Maybe the people in Gaza should exist only to eat, maybe they do't deserve to know that the world's government, the UN Nato and their fellow members of their faith have failed them, God forbid they get the opportunity to know what's going on in the world!

If you had read the thread you would have remembered that the phones were being bought before their official release date (at an obviously increased price) and not at some car boot sale. When are those of you that support the palestinian cause going to realise that you are being lied to? Have you not seen the pictures fron independent sources that show brand new shopping complexes, 5* hotels, bars, restaurants and amusement parks springing up all over Gaza? How can any human being complain about being forcibly starved, and yet have enough to by luxuries? Trying to to compare their right to know what's going on in the world to their "starvation", is bizzare in the extreme.

The Warsaw Judenrat had more food than the poor regular guys.  In the Leningrad siege of 1941 the first people to die were the culchies who flooded into the city from the nearby villages.  That is how things often work within societies in terms of resource distribution.   

So what if a few people in Gaza have iphones- Israel runs the place and is obviously comfortable with the calorie programme.
The issue is the socipaths who run the Israeli system
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 05:39:10 PM
PA Lockup on New Prisoner Death March 5, 2013 15:45by Pesach Benson

Had Ayman Samarah been found dead in an Israeli prison cell, he'd be just as famous as Arafat Jaradat, who was all over the news last week.

But Samarah died in a Palestinian Authority prison cell, not an Israeli one.

The PA wouldn't allow Palestinian journalists to cover the story. Imagine that.

According to the Jerusalem Post's Khaled Abu Toameh, Samarah was being held in Jericho jail, charged with assault. Family members said the 40-year-old Samarah had diabetes and high blood pressure.

The PA is investigating the death, but Toameh raises a lot of questions:

One journalist, Mustafa Khawaja, who worked for the local Al-Aksa TV station, was detained by PA security officers for several hours when he tried to report on a sit-in strike by families of Palestinians held in Jericho Prison . . .

Palestinians said over the weekend that some detainees had complained of torture while being held in the prison.

On Saturday, the mother of Karim Shaheen, who is being held in Jericho Prison, said that her son has been hospitalized after suffering from paralysis in in his left arm as a result of torture.

The family of another detainee, Baha Zahdeh, also accused the PA security forces of torturing their son, who is being held in the same prison on suspicion of membership in Hamas.

The PA was quick to make groundless vile claims that Jaradat was tortured during interrogation and then moved to a cell with Palestinian collaborators who promptly killed him. Israel will probe Jaradat's death. The inquiry will include an international observer.

Considering the PA's failed effort to cover up Samarah, don't expect Ramallah to hold itself to the same lofty standards of transparency it demands of Israel.

Which raises the issue of another double-standard at play.

Ironically, just one day before Samarah's death, Tim Marshall of Sky News observed that the torture and death of detainees in PA custody never gets the same media interest as anything that happens behind Israeli bars.

Contrast this with a subject which rarely gets headlines, and which fails to spark debate; the conditions of Palestinians in Palestinian jails. Few people speak for them, their fate does not generate demonstrations or agonised debate, nor righteous anger in the outside world . . .

Palestinians are well aware that few people will stand up for them if they are taken into the police stations and prisons run by the Palestinian authorities in either Gaza or the West Bank. They know that torture in these establishments is routine and that deaths in custody occur there as well.

Indeed, there was no shortage of Big Media interest in Jaradat.

His death, funeral, and the international reactions were duly noted by AP, Reuters, BBC, Washington Post, NY Times, LA Times, Wall St. Journal, The Independent, The Guardian, Daily Telegraph, Irish Times, Time, Sydney Morning Herald and CNN, among others.

Having set such a high bar on prisoner coverage, can these papers match their output for Samarah and his outraged family?

Or do dead detainees not make a sound when they fall in a Palestinian prison?


http://honestreporting.com/pa-lockup-on-new-prisoner-death/ (http://honestreporting.com/pa-lockup-on-new-prisoner-death/)
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 04:10:39 PM
Quote from: stew on March 05, 2013, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
It shows that things are so bad that they have the ready cash to splash on iphones. But they claim to be starving.

How many calories are in an iphone?

They might have bought them second hand!

Maybe the people in Gaza should exist only to eat, maybe they do't deserve to know that the world's government, the UN Nato and their fellow members of their faith have failed them, God forbid they get the opportunity to know what's going on in the world!

If you had read the thread you would have remembered that the phones were being bought before their official release date (at an obviously increased price) and not at some car boot sale. When are those of you that support the palestinian cause going to realise that you are being lied to? Have you not seen the pictures fron independent sources that show brand new shopping complexes, 5* hotels, bars, restaurants and amusement parks springing up all over Gaza? How can any human being complain about being forcibly starved, and yet have enough to by luxuries? Trying to to compare their right to know what's going on in the world to their "starvation", is bizzare in the extreme.

The Warsaw Judenrat had more food than the poor regular guys.  In the Leningrad siege of 1941 the first people to die were the culchies who flooded into the city from the nearby villages.  That is how things often work within societies in terms of resource distribution.   

So what if a few people in Gaza have iphones- Israel runs the place and is obviously comfortable with the calorie programme.
The issue is the socipaths who run the Israeli system
No. The issue is the genocidal scum of Hamas etc who use their own people as weapons against Israel.
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 05:57:44 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 04:10:39 PM
Quote from: stew on March 05, 2013, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on October 17, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
It shows that things are so bad that they have the ready cash to splash on iphones. But they claim to be starving.

How many calories are in an iphone?

They might have bought them second hand!

Maybe the people in Gaza should exist only to eat, maybe they do't deserve to know that the world's government, the UN Nato and their fellow members of their faith have failed them, God forbid they get the opportunity to know what's going on in the world!

If you had read the thread you would have remembered that the phones were being bought before their official release date (at an obviously increased price) and not at some car boot sale. When are those of you that support the palestinian cause going to realise that you are being lied to? Have you not seen the pictures fron independent sources that show brand new shopping complexes, 5* hotels, bars, restaurants and amusement parks springing up all over Gaza? How can any human being complain about being forcibly starved, and yet have enough to by luxuries? Trying to to compare their right to know what's going on in the world to their "starvation", is bizzare in the extreme.

The Warsaw Judenrat had more food than the poor regular guys.  In the Leningrad siege of 1941 the first people to die were the culchies who flooded into the city from the nearby villages.  That is how things often work within societies in terms of resource distribution.   

So what if a few people in Gaza have iphones- Israel runs the place and is obviously comfortable with the calorie programme.
The issue is the socipaths who run the Israeli system
No. The issue is the genocidal scum of Hamas etc who use their own people as weapons against Israel.
Genocide? FFs. How many Israelis have been killed in Hamas's "genocide"? what weapons would Gaza use to wipe out Israel? Donkey carts?  Israel has white phosphorous and  Nuclear weapons.

"using their own people as weapons"- Please do explain. 
Have you ever seen a comparison on the type of artillery available to the 2 sides? you really are for the birds. 
And who runs the controlled calories program in occupied Gaza?
Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 06:51:02 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 05:57:44 PM
Genocide? FFs. How many Israelis have been killed in Hamas's "genocide"? what weapons would Gaza use to wipe out Israel? Donkey carts?  Israel has white phosphorous and  Nuclear weapons.

Hamas is committed to jihad against the Jews until Allah's victory is implemented. The land of Palestine "must be cleansed from their impurity and viciousness". Muslims are obligated by order of the Prophet to fight and kill the Jews wherever they find them. This call to genocide is justified by a hadith which concludes article 7 of the Hamas charter.

Quote
"using their own people as weapons"- Please do explain.
Besides the obvious suicide bombers, they use their own men, women and especially children as human shields.


Quote
Have you ever seen a comparison on the type of artillery available to the 2 sides? you really are for the birds. 
And who runs the controlled calories program in occupied Gaza?
::) No one runs "the controlled calories program" in Gaza, because there is no controlled calories program. There was a plan formulated years ago to discover what the optimal calory intake would be needed for someone to survive. The figure they came up with was more than that required by a professional footballer. Hardly starvation rations.

Title: Re: 2,279 calories per person: How Israel made sure Gaza didn't starve
Post by: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 08:24:45 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 05, 2013, 06:51:02 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2013, 05:57:44 PM
Genocide? FFs. How many Israelis have been killed in Hamas's "genocide"? what weapons would Gaza use to wipe out Israel? Donkey carts?  Israel has white phosphorous and  Nuclear weapons.

Hamas is committed to jihad against the Jews until Allah's victory is implemented. The land of Palestine "must be cleansed from their impurity and viciousness". Muslims are obligated by order of the Prophet to fight and kill the Jews wherever they find them. This call to genocide is justified by a hadith which concludes article 7 of the Hamas charter.

Quote
"using their own people as weapons"- Please do explain.
Besides the obvious suicide bombers, they use their own men, women and especially children as human shields.


Quote
Have you ever seen a comparison on the type of artillery available to the 2 sides? you really are for the birds. 
And who runs the controlled calories program in occupied Gaza?
::) No one runs "the controlled calories program" in Gaza, because there is no controlled calories program. There was a plan formulated years ago to discover what the optimal calory intake would be needed for someone to survive. The figure they came up with was more than that required by a professional footballer. Hardly starvation rations.

Using people as human shields. And who kills them? The Israelis. Why? Because Palestinians are Untermenschen under Zionism.
Same as Jews under the Nazis. Vermin, more or less

There is a calories program. I put the link up. Haaretz not good enough for you? Gisha antisemitic or something?

And 2200 calories per head (WTF ever happened to Judaism?) required 160 trucks per day into Gaza. Most days the bots let in less than 100.
So average calorie intake was  way down on 2200.

Gisha graph here for anyone who buys the bullshit that Gaza was no longer occupied after 2005. 
http://www.gisha.org/graph.asp?lang_id=en&p_id=901

And Hamas has signed up for the 2 state solution. Will recognise Israel in return for a Palestinian state. But Israel will never grant Palestinians independence. Because Zionism is run by sociopaths.

Nazi siege and calorie plan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcd88TOwx5o&feature=related

Zionist siege and calorie plan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8YfA_DngUM

It's the same sickness.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 06, 2013, 06:00:21 PM

The factual and logical failures behind accusations of 'racist' Israeli bus lines

There seems to be no evidence whatsoever to back up accusations, in the Guardian and throughout the media, that new bus lines in Israel, serving Palestinians who live in the West Bank but work in central Israel, serve 'Palestinians only'. 

Prior to the launch of the new lines Israeli buses did not stop in towns controlled by the PA, and Palestinians were dependent on transportation services by "pirate" (Arab) companies. (Alternately they could travel to an Israeli settlement, such as Ariel, and take a bus from there to Israeli cities across the green line.)



Conal Urquhart's Guardian report on the issue, which, in fairness, is no worse than others in the mainstream media, was titled "Israel to launch 'Palestinian only' bus service", March 4, and begins thusly:


The Israeli government will on Monday begin operating a "Palestinians-only" bus service to ferry Palestinian workers from the West Bank to Israel, encouraging them to use it instead of travelling with Israeli settlers on a similar route.

However, at no point does Urquhart attempt to buttress this sensational claim, nor indicate the source of the ("Palestinians only") quote.

In fact, he then notes the following:


Officially anyone can use them, but the ministry of transport said that the new lines are meant to improve services for Palestinians.

...

In a statement to the Israeli newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, the ministry said: "The new lines are not separate lines for Palestinians but rather two designated lines meant to improve the services offered to Palestinian workers who enter Israel through Eyal Crossing.

As Lori Lowenthal Marcus pointed out, the 'restrictions' pertain to 'only' stopping at Palestinian towns in the territories, where Jews don't live.

Urquhart continues:


Information on the new services, which are operated by the company Afikim, have reportedly only been advertised in Arabic and distributed only in Palestinian areas of the West Bank.

However, if the goal of the new bus line is to improve service for Palestinians living in the West Bank but working in Israel, it would certainly make sense to advertise the lines in Palestinian towns, and only in Arabic.

Again, Urquhart:


Palestinians used to use Palestinian minibuses and taxis to travel into Israel but Israel has increased the number of permits it gives to Palestinians which has led to more mixing on shared routes.

Indeed, Palestinians were dependent upon transportation services by unauthorized Arab companies which charged far more than the new Israeli lines do, and Urquhart, further in his report, quotes the Transportation Ministry official making a similar point. 

For example, the fare for Palestinians traveling to Raanana is reportedly 5.1 shekels (roughly $1.35), and to Tel Aviv will cost 10.6 shekels ($2.85). This is compared to roughly 40 shekels ($10.75) that passengers have been charged by the private transportation services.

Additionally, Transportation and Road Safety Minister Yisrael Katz was quoted in Israel HaYom as explaining that "Palestinians were permitted to use any public bus line they wished, including the ones used by settlers."

Lowenthal Marcus makes the following point:


The new bus lines are not, as the misleading headlines suggest, only for Arab Palestinians, the restriction they have is that they only stop at Arab towns in the territories, where – few would disagree – Jews with or without special identification would not dare go for fear – a legitimate one – of physical violence.  The fact remains that any Israeli citizens, Jewish, Christian or Zoroastrians, who live in the "Jewish" towns, were able to and did use the pre-existing bus lines.

As Seth Frantzman observed in the Jerusalem Post today:


The website of the bus company, Ofakim, shows that the No. 211 bus route begins near Kalkilya and travels to Tel Aviv with stops in Petah Tikvah, Bnei Brak and elsewhere. It doesn't indicate that it is a "Palestinian only" bus or that Jews may not ride it. Ofakim claimed "We are not allowed to refuse service and we will not order anyone to get off the bus."

Frantzman also argued that "nothing obvious prevents Arabs from commuting to a bus stop near a large Jewish community, to take a bus serving Ariel for instance." He added that "there is no 'segregation', no 'separate but equal'. No one is 'sitting at the back'."

But, one question remains: How would it be racist against 'Palestinians' if service on a bus line operating in the West Bank was for 'Palestinians only'?  That is, how could Palestinians be victims of racism if service on a public transportation system was  denied to Jews? 

Typically, the canards employed by those who assault Israel's legitimacy are framed in the opposite manner, with suggestions that public accommodations in Israel are restricted to prevent non-Jews from using them.  A great example of such a false claim, advanced by Haaretz and definitively refuted by CAMERA, was the myth of "Jews only" roads in Israel.

While there are no 'Jews only' roads in Israel, there are areas within the state for 'Palestinians only'.

Put another way, is this sign racist?

(http://commentisfreewatch.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/no-israelis-allowed.jpg?w=593&h=444)


Sign warning Israelis not to enter a Palestinian town

First, it would obviously be extremely dangerous for an Israeli Jew to enter Palestinians cities in Area 'A'. It's also prohibited by the IDF.   When I went on a media tour of Ramallah in 2011 I was required to sign a document essentially stating that I understood the risk involved and that the Israeli government was not responsible for my safety.

Palestinian cities in the West Bank such as Ramallah are for 'Palestinians only'.

Whilst the future of the new bus lines which are the focus of the latest anti-Israel media storm may be in doubt, let's be clear about two things:

First, contrary to claims made in the media, there are no 'Palestinian only' bus lines.

If, completely hypothetically, there were such buses, it beggars the imagination how policies which excluded Jewish passengers could be characterized as racist against Palestinians.

The latest row demonstrates that when it comes to reporting on Israel, facts and moral logic are necessarily subservient to sensationalist anti-Zionist narratives.

http://cifwatch.com/ (http://cifwatch.com/)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 06, 2013, 07:57:48 PM
Christ bdb that is a new low for you . Did your grandfather work for Jim Crow? Why do jews live in settlements devoid of locals in the West bank? Isn't that racist ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 06, 2013, 08:16:23 PM
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/424389/march-05-2013/obama-s-israel-trip



http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/424390/march-05-2013/obama-s-israel-trip---michael-oren
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 04:08:18 AM
Gaza govt to reduce import of cars due to oversupply


Published yesterday (updated) 06/03/2013 20:42






GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- The general administration at the Gaza government's transportation ministry announced Wednesday that in February the number of cars entering Gaza was reduced due to oversupply.

Head of imports at the ministry Basel Deeb told Ma'an that the number of cars transferred to the Gaza Strip was much less than the previous three months.

"We imported 63 cars from Egypt and 242 from Israel, and that's a small number," said Deeb.

He pointed out that people were not ordering more cars, meaning there were enough already in Gaza.

The sector needs more taxis and commercial cars, but the embargo imposed over the sector prevents the access of these needed cars, he pointed out.


http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=572088 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=572088)

Maybe they could start eating them, to supplement their meagre rations.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 08:55:30 AM
Israeli deputy ambassador gets a very difficult job. Justify apartheid in less than 300 words. 

4/10 for effort.

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224330868464

Sir, – It is deeply regrettable that a positive development for 30,000 or so Palestinians, who travel to Israel for work each day, has been reported in such a negative manner ("Israel to run separate buses for Palestinians", March 4th).

The facts are that new transport lines have been established, which will facilitate easier travel to and from Israel. Until now, Palestinians doing so had no direct line from their residences to the border crossing; therefore, they had to pay for expensive taxi transport or walk a long journey or travel to an Israeli community in the West Bank and take a bus, all of which was highly inconvenient.

The new transport lines allow Palestinians direct transport from their towns and villages to the border crossing. Under any circumstances, this would be seen as a positive development; regrettably it has been implied that these arrangements amount to segregation. – Yours etc,

NURIT TINARI-MODAI,

Deputy Ambassador of Israel,

Embassy of Israel,

Pembroke Road,

Ballsbridge, Dublin
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 02:27:28 PM
Hamas blocks humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza



Thursday, March 07, 2013 |  Michael Selutin   


Dozens of heavy trucks transporting humanitarian aid have been sitting idly on the border of the Gaza Strip since Monday, unable to enter the coastal enclave after Hamas shut the gates from its side.

The perishable items among the aid carried by the 65 trucks are threatening to spoil if the situation isn't resolved quickly.

The problem is that earlier this week, Hamas decided to seize control of Gaza's border crossings from the Palestinian Authority. Israel has been working with the PA to ensure that regular supplies entered Gaza.

But Hamas and Israel have no cooperation, and the terror group seems uninterested in getting those trucks into the territory it rules.

Israeli Gen. Eitan Dangot, the officer in charge of coordinating aid transfers, stressed that Israel continues to facilitate the entry of goods to Gaza, and will gladly resume that practice if someone on the other side will let that happen.

Gen. Dangot noted that Hamas is inflicting great harm on its own people in a misguided attempt to score PR points with the international community.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23717/Default.aspx?hp=readmore (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23717/Default.aspx?hp=readmore)

Maybe GHD could have a word with his mates in Hamas to let in some real humanitarian aid.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 02:59:17 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 02:27:28 PM
Hamas blocks humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza



Thursday, March 07, 2013 |  Michael Selutin   


Dozens of heavy trucks transporting humanitarian aid have been sitting idly on the border of the Gaza Strip since Monday, unable to enter the coastal enclave after Hamas shut the gates from its side.

The perishable items among the aid carried by the 65 trucks are threatening to spoil if the situation isn't resolved quickly.

The problem is that earlier this week, Hamas decided to seize control of Gaza's border crossings from the Palestinian Authority. Israel has been working with the PA to ensure that regular supplies entered Gaza.

But Hamas and Israel have no cooperation, and the terror group seems uninterested in getting those trucks into the territory it rules.

Israeli Gen. Eitan Dangot, the officer in charge of coordinating aid transfers, stressed that Israel continues to facilitate the entry of goods to Gaza, and will gladly resume that practice if someone on the other side will let that happen.

Gen. Dangot noted that Hamas is inflicting great harm on its own people in a misguided attempt to score PR points with the international community.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23717/Default.aspx?hp=readmore (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23717/Default.aspx?hp=readmore)

Maybe GHD could have a word with his mates in Hamas to let in some real humanitarian aid.
Why does Gaza need humanitarian aid I wonder.
Would it have anything to do with Israeli policy? 

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 03:09:09 PM
Egypt's tunnel closures hit Gaza builders

Published today (updated) 07/03/2013 16:53






By Nidal al-Mughrabi


GAZA CITY (Reuters) -- Business was booming for Gaza brick-maker Yasser Qreqea, until neighboring Egypt shut down smuggling tunnels across its border that were funneling arms to militants in the territory and cement and other basic goods to everyone else.

Overnight the price of building materials soared in the Gaza Strip, hitting Qreqea's key customers and, industry sources said, slowing the construction of apartments, roads and houses across the enclave run by Hamas.

"Business is dead and we are the ones losing out," the businessman told Reuters in his factory in the densely-populated Zeitoun neighborhood of Gaza City.

A handful of workers stacked bricks in his already bulging store room, but Qreqea sat idle, waiting for customers.

Egypt said it started flooding and sealing the network of tunnels in February to cut a two-way flow of smuggled weapons that was destabilizing its border area in the Sinai peninsula, where separate groups of militants operate.

Cairo's decision also cut a lifeline to around 1.7 million Palestinians in Gaza, hit by a blockade on a wide range of goods imposed by Israel in 2007 after Hamas took power.

The tunnels had been used to bypass the blockade and smuggle in all kinds of merchandise, including cars, livestock and fuel -- around 30 percent of all goods that reached the enclave, according to some estimates.

A month ago, a tonne of cement cost 350 shekels ($95) in the Gaza Strip. After the tunnel closures, the price rose to 650 shekels before Hamas pressured merchants to bring it down to its current 480 shekel mark.

"I have been speaking to contractors and I understood many of them have suspended building because of the unstable and higher prices of cement," said Ali al-Hayek, chairman of the Palestinian Businessmen's Association.

He forecast "disastrous results for the economy of Gaza and the building sector", unless Egypt reopened the routes.

Hayek said there was a lack of data on the exact size of the construction industry in the Gaza Strip, but estimated thousands of private and public projects were under way before the stoppage.

Gaza's tunnelers told Reuters nearly 60 percent of the estimated 1,000 smuggling routes under the border had been closed.

Tunnel owner Abu Jamal said the Hamas government's taxation of cement and the new price controls had made the smuggling of construction material through surviving routes unviable.

"The Egyptian campaign damaged our business gravely and conditions by Hamas here are forcing us to stop the work. Business is in sleep mode," he added.

Under international pressure, Israel began to ease the blockade in 2010 and allowed international aid agencies to import construction material. It further eased restrictions at the end of last year, but not enough to wean Gaza's businesses from their tunnel supply routes.

Majed Abu Shaaban, a developer building rental apartments, said mounting construction costs would ultimately be passed on to consumers, who would be charged higher rents.

"The solution is to reopen crossings either with Israel or with Egypt. My only concern is to get goods at market prices," Abu Shaaban said.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=572273 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=572273)

I think you'll find that their Egyptian "brothers" are the ones causing most hardship to the palestinians, and have it within their powers to open the border between the two, but won't. Why is that? It suits their "martyr" image to have Israel portrayed as the bad guy.
Israel has no moral or legal obligation to aid anywhere that has declared itself "at war" with Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 03:30:21 PM
I think you'll find that their Egyptian "brothers" are the ones causing most hardship to the palestinians, and have it within their powers to open the border between the two, but won't

FFS. How many times has Egypt bombed Gaza ?
How much of Gaza's infrastructure has Egypt destroyed ?
How many drones does Egypt fly over Gaza?
How many Egyptian ships close Gaza from the sea?
How many Gazans has Egypt assassinated over the last 10 years? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 03:41:34 PM
How many Israeli soldiers are patrolling the Egyptian border with Gaza, thus preventing movement between them?

Call on Egypt to open the border. Gaza isn't at war with Egypt, they're "brothers."  ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 04:34:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 03:41:34 PM
How many Israeli soldiers are patrolling the Egyptian border with Gaza, thus preventing movement between them?

Call on Egypt to open the border. Gaza isn't at war with Egypt, they're "brothers."  ::)
Gaza is Israel's baby. It's full of Untermenschen that the Jews didn't want in their "eternal homeland".
They ethnically cleansed southern Palestine and swept the people into Gaza. 
They attack it every 5 years or so. They trash its infrastructure at will.

Israel is responsible for Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 04:48:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 04:34:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 03:41:34 PM
How many Israeli soldiers are patrolling the Egyptian border with Gaza, thus preventing movement between them?

Call on Egypt to open the border. Gaza isn't at war with Egypt, they're "brothers."  ::)
Gaza is Israel's baby. It's full of Untermenschen that the Jews didn't want in their "eternal homeland".
They ethnically cleansed southern Palestine and swept the people into Gaza. 
They attack it every 5 years or so. They trash its infrastructure at will.

Israel is responsible for Gaza.

Untermenschen?  ;D Ask the Egyptians who doesn't want the palestinians in their country. Egypt wants nothing to do with the Gaza problem and so is happy for Israel to take the blame for all it's problems. If you are so concerned about the "suffering" of the palestinians, then why not put pressure on Egypt to open it's border? Are Egypt that cowardly and  so scared of Israel that they don't want to upset them?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 05:18:34 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 04:48:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 04:34:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 03:41:34 PM
How many Israeli soldiers are patrolling the Egyptian border with Gaza, thus preventing movement between them?

Call on Egypt to open the border. Gaza isn't at war with Egypt, they're "brothers."  ::)
Gaza is Israel's baby. It's full of Untermenschen that the Jews didn't want in their "eternal homeland".
They ethnically cleansed southern Palestine and swept the people into Gaza. 
They attack it every 5 years or so. They trash its infrastructure at will.

Israel is responsible for Gaza.

Untermenschen?  ;D Ask the Egyptians who doesn't want the palestinians in their country. Egypt wants nothing to do with the Gaza problem and so is happy for Israel to take the blame for all it's problems. If you are so concerned about the "suffering" of the palestinians, then why not put pressure on Egypt to open it's border? Are Egypt that cowardly and  so scared of Israel that they don't want to upset them?
If Israel has nothing to do with Gaza why are so you anal about posting about Gaza?

Egypt doesn't want to have anything to do with Gaza. Israel deindustrialised Gaza , Israel occupies Gaza - so it's Israel's responsibility.
Israel should open its border to Gaza.

You are familiar with the mitzvot I presume. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 05:31:23 PM
Where did I say Israel has nothing to do with Gaza? Militant groups in Gaza are "at war" with Israel. Israel has plenty to do with Gaza. Why would Israel open it's door to Gaza, when there are people in Gaza who want to attack it? Your logic is becoming increasingly bizzare.

Egypt have washed their hands of Gaza, and are letting it suffer while it has the power to end their suffering.

Israel does not "occupy" Gaza. There is not one solitary Israeli soldier in Gaza. Israel controls the air over, the sea off the shore and their mutual border. Gaza has another border with Egypt, which is more than capable of being opened up by Egypt to let Gaza trade with the world if they so wished. In reality, it is the Egyptians who regard Gazans as "untermenschen."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 05:48:07 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 05:31:23 PM
Where did I say Israel has nothing to do with Gaza? Militant groups in Gaza are "at war" with Israel. Israel has plenty to do with Gaza. Why would Israel open it's door to Gaza, when there are people in Gaza who want to attack it? Your logic is becoming increasingly bizzare.

Egypt have washed their hands of Gaza, and are letting it suffer while it has the power to end their suffering.

Israel does not "occupy" Gaza. There is not one solitary Israeli soldier in Gaza. Israel controls the air over, the sea off the shore and their mutual border. Gaza has another border with Egypt, which is more than capable of being opened up by Egypt to let Gaza trade with the world if they so wished. In reality, it is the Egyptians who regard Gazans as "untermenschen."
Israel runs Gaza. IDF HQ in Tel Aviv, the Kirya has 400 people working on Gaza.
Israel's Ministries have over 1000 civil servants working on Israel's policy in Gaza .
Israel doesn't need soldiers- it runs over 500 collaborators in Gaza.

and are you familiar with the mitzvot? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 05:53:46 PM
Egypt-Gaza tunnels must be destroyed, Cairo court rules  

Egyptian attorney Wael Hamdy: "I filed the case because I was worried about the state of national security in my country after the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood to power and its unclear policies and links with Hamas."

Reuters and Israel Hayom Staff


A Palestinian works inside a smuggling tunnel flooded by Egyptian forces, beneath the Egyptian-Gaza border in Rafah, Feb. 19, 2013. |Photo credit: Reuters

A Palestinian works inside a smuggling tunnel flooded by Egyptian forces, beneath the Egyptian-Gaza border in Rafah, Feb. 19, 2013. |Photo credit: Reuters


A Cairo court ruled on Tuesday that the government must destroy all tunnels between Egypt and the Gaza Strip, removing a route for smuggled weapons but also a lifeline for Palestinians.


Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood has close ties with the Hamas Islamists who run the Gaza Strip, but many Egyptians fear the enclave is a security risk for Egypt.


Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi's national security adviser Essam Haddad said Egypt would not tolerate the two-way flow of smuggled arms through the tunnels, which is destabilizing Egypt's Sinai Peninsula.


Egyptian forces flooded some of the tunnels earlier this month.


"The court ruled to make it obligatory that the government destroys the tunnels between Egypt and the Gaza Strip," Judge Farid Tanaghou said.


An estimated 30 percent of goods that reach Gaza's 1.7 million Palestinian residents come through the tunnels, circumventing a blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt for more than seven years.


"I filed the case because I was worried about the state of national security in my country after the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood to power and its unclear policies and links with Hamas," said Wael Hamdy, a lawyer who presented the case to the court.


He said the case was made after 16 Egyptian border guards were killed last August by militants near the Gaza border. The attack highlighted the lawlessness in the Sinai desert region adjoining Israel and Gaza.


Cairo said some of the gunmen had entered Egypt through the Gaza tunnels, an accusation denied by the Palestinians. Dozens of tunnels have been destroyed since that incident, but, according to Hamdy, 2,000 are still operational.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=7789 (http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=7789)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 06:34:10 PM
Egypt is playing a good game. If the tunnels are destroyed the humanitarian crisis run by the Israelis will intensify
And they deserve the opprobium of the world for what they are doing.
And where are the leaders of Judaism? where are the rabbis?
Total moral breakdown.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 06:51:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 06:34:10 PM
Egypt is playing a good game. If the tunnels are destroyed the humanitarian crisis run by the Israelis will intensify
And they deserve the opprobium of the world for what they are doing.
And where are the leaders of Judaism? where are the rabbis?
Total moral breakdown.

NAIL HIT DIRECTLY ON HEAD. You have just shown that you have no moral arguement. The very thing you attack Israel for, you applaud Egypt for. Hypocricy of the highest order.

It suits antisemites like you to have Israel painted in the worst possible way, even if the very people you say you care about have to suffer as a result. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Rossfan on March 07, 2013, 07:18:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 06:51:26 PM
.

It suits antisemites like you to have Israel painted in the worst possible way, even if the very people you say you care about have to suffer as a result.

So if Seafoid says Israel is a great place then everything will be wonderful in Gaza.

Seaf must have some powers  :o

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 07:26:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 07, 2013, 07:18:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 06:51:26 PM
.

It suits antisemites like you to have Israel painted in the worst possible way, even if the very people you say you care about have to suffer as a result.

So if Seafoid says Israel is a great place then everything will be wonderful in Gaza.

Seaf must have some powers  :o
Where did I say that?

Do you think it's OK to accuse Israel of causing suffering, but fail to criticise Egypt for having the power to end that suffering, yet do nothing?

HYPOCRISY OF THE HIGHEST ORDER.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 07:52:21 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 06:51:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 06:34:10 PM
Egypt is playing a good game. If the tunnels are destroyed the humanitarian crisis run by the Israelis will intensify
And they deserve the opprobium of the world for what they are doing.
And where are the leaders of Judaism? where are the rabbis?
Total moral breakdown.

NAIL HIT DIRECTLY ON HEAD. You have just shown that you have no moral arguement. The very thing you attack Israel for, you applaud Egypt for. Hypocricy of the highest order.

It suits antisemites like you to have Israel painted in the worst possible way, even if the very people you say you care about have to suffer as a result.
FFS, The ISRAELIS  run the system. The system sucks . It deliberately impoverishes 1.5 million people with the aim of dehumanising them so utterly that they give up and move somewhere else.
and somehow that is EGYPT'S fault.

Jews call the shots. Nobody else.

And just look at your posts over the last months

You try to justify

Apartheid on buses
180 Palestinians murdered by Israel in November
The ongoing Israeli siege of Gaza
The Israeli programme to limit the food that goes into Gaza
The Israeli categorisation of everyone in Gaza as a terrorist

   
And you know the square root of f**k ALL about Gaelic Games.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 07:52:21 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 06:51:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 06:34:10 PM
Egypt is playing a good game. If the tunnels are destroyed the humanitarian crisis run by the Israelis will intensify
And they deserve the opprobium of the world for what they are doing.
And where are the leaders of Judaism? where are the rabbis?
Total moral breakdown.

NAIL HIT DIRECTLY ON HEAD. You have just shown that you have no moral arguement. The very thing you attack Israel for, you applaud Egypt for. Hypocricy of the highest order.

It suits antisemites like you to have Israel painted in the worst possible way, even if the very people you say you care about have to suffer as a result.
FFS, The ISRAELIS  run the system. The system sucks . It deliberately impoverishes 1.5 million people with the aim of dehumanising them so utterly that they give up and move somewhere else.
and somehow that is EGYPT'S fault.

Jews call the shots. Nobody else.

And just look at your posts over the last months

You try to justify

Apartheid on buses
180 Palestinians murdered by Israel in November
The ongoing Israeli siege of Gaza
The Israeli programme to limit the food that goes into Gaza
The Israeli categorisation of everyone in Gaza as a terrorist

   
And you know the square root of f**k ALL about Gaelic Games.

HAHAHAHAHA my da's bigger than your da.  ;D

What "system" do Israelis run? What shots do "the jews" call?
Israel controls the Muslim Brotherhood, does it? It guards the Egypt - Gaza border?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2013, 08:13:06 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netherlands-calls-on-stores-to-label-products-from-israeli-settlements.premium-1.508024#


Netherlands calls on stores to label products from Israeli settlements

Dutch follow British lead, but emphasize it is not illegal to import goods from territories. Other European countries expected to follow suit in coming weeks.

By Barak Ravid | Mar.07, 2013 | 9:00 PM | 6

















Barak Ravid
By DPA | Mar.07,2013 | 9:00 PM | 31


The Dutch government has for the first time called for retail chains in the Netherlands to state the origin of products from West Bank settlements, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. This makes the Netherlands, one of Israel's greatest friends in Europe, the second country in the European Union, after Britain, to recommend such labeling.

The Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs issued a directive Wednesday to all retail chains in the country, stating that it wished to clarify procedures regarding the labeling of products from the settlements and to assist consumers. "The decision was made after consulting the European Commission," the document said.

The letter states that the government is recommending the label change but that no steps will be taken against retails who do not comply, and that it is not illegal to import products from the settlements.

The document calls for the labeling of the following products: fresh fruit and vegetables, wine, honey, olive oil, fish, meat, chicken, eggs and cosmetics produced in the Golan Heights, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. These products should no longer state on their packaging that they are made in Israel. Rather, they should be labeled as originating in "Israeli settlement in the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, the West Bank or in Palestinian territories," the directive states. Retailers, not importers, will be responsible for the labeling.

The Netherlands' foreign minister, Frans Timmermans, said in a speech to parliament Wednesday that the settlements are illegal and an obstacle to peace.
He said that the labeling of products by retail chains in Holland will allow consumers to know whether they want to purchase these products. "We do not want to contribute to the economy of the illegal settlements," Timmermans said.

The Dutch government's decision came following a letter sent on February 22 by the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton to the 27 foreign ministers of the EU member states. In the letter, which was quoted by the Hebrew daily Maariv, she urged the foreign ministers to ensure full compliance with existing EU legislation on labeling products from Israeli settlements and noted that compliance was incumbent on EU members and the appropriate agencies in those countries.

A source in Israel's Foreign Ministry said that after Ashton sent the letter, Israel's ambassadors in EU countries were instructed to unofficially approach the foreign ministries of the countries in which they are serving and ask them not to implement the directives at this time. The ambassadors also asked those countries to urge Ashton to rescind her directive.

Israel's ambassador to the Netherlands, Haim Divon, approached senior officials in the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs in The Hague to express displeasure over Ashton's letter. Divon said that although the directive speaks only of labeling products from the settlements, it will lead to a boycott against such products and perhaps against Israeli products in general.

Divon said that many Dutch companies will not understand the government's recommendation and will interpret it as a binding ban on products from the settlements. Divon told the senior officials that "obsessive preoccupation with the settlements had exceeded all proportion" and that "the European Union is taking out its frustration with the situation in the Middle East on us."

The Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs told Divon that the labeling of the products was a logical step in light of EU policy on the matter. They said they do not support a total ban on products from the settlements or on Israeli products in general, and they would work to ensure that this did not happen.

A government recommendation to label products from the settlements has been issued so far only in Britain. The Danish government studied the matter but has yet to take action. The fact that Holland was the second country to issue the directives is surprising, because of the close and friendly relations between Holland and Israel.

The Netherlands, considered one of Israel's key supporters in the EU, has promoted adding Hezbollah to the EU's list of terror groups and supports Israel in votes in various international forums. It has also helped Israel balance anti-Israel decisions in the EU.

Thus, it is believed that the Dutch move will push many other EU countries to take similar steps. The concern is that as early as the coming weeks a wave of such moves will be seen, leading to a dramatic increase in the monitoring of products from the settlements in the EU.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 07, 2013, 08:15:49 PM
Do the "sons of William" know anything about gaelic games?  ;)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 04:20:01 AM
Envoys work to end UN's Palestinian refugee status
By BENJAMIN WEINTHAL, MICHAEL WILNER JERUSALEM

03/10/2013 02:35


Prosor: Real obstacle to peace is right of return for Palestinian refugees, not settlements; adds transfer of status "misguided."


NEW YORK – At a small conference at the Harvard Club in Manhattan on Thursday, a host of dignitaries and experts, including Israel's envoy to the UN Ron Prosor, addressed the UN's classification of Palestinian refugees as the principal stumbling block to a peace agreement between Israel and the PLO.

The conference was the opening salvo in the direction of drafting of US legislation meant to end the automatic transmission of refugee status to the descendents of Palestinians that has been taking place since 1948, just as Filippo Grandi, commissioner-general of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), prepared to hold a press conference on Monday on Palestinian refugees becoming a "forgotten population" in an increasingly turbulent region.

Dr. Daniel Pipes, a leading international expert on the Middle East, opened the conference, declaring that the Palestinian refugee situation is broken, sick, and detrimental to all involved. The current approach by UNRWA "creates a narrative of victimhood and leads to extremism," said Pipes.

The Middle East Forum, a Philadelphia-based think tank where Pipes serves as president, organized the conference, titled Changing US Policy on UNRWA and the "Palestine Refugees."

"No one will admit it... the real obstacle [to a two-state solution] is the right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees," Prosor said. The "refugees problem is the main obstacle to peace, not settlements."

The return of Palestinian refugees "would cause Israel's destruction," Prosor said.

In 1950, there were some 700,000 Palestinian refugees. The current figure stands at more than 5.1 million, though that depends on who is counting.

Historically, refugees who become citizens of another country lose their status as refugees; a large percentage of Palestinians live in Jordan or Syria, though those in Syria are now experiencing an entirely new refugee crisis.

Many participants at the event asserted that double standards applied to Palestinian refugees, in sharp contrast to this general rule of thumb.

Prosor sees UNRWA policy to allow Palestinians to "transfer their refugee mileage to their children" as misguided. "Israel deeply opposes UNRWA's political agenda, but supports its humanitarian agenda," he said, adding that "not one Arab country appears on the top-10 list of UNRWA's donor," and that its funding comes mainly from Western countries.

Although Arab countries are "saturated with petro-dollars," they are not donating adequately to UNRWA, he charged.

According to Prosor, the ration of staff to refugees at the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, which covers non-Palestinian refugees, is 1 to 4,400. UNRWA has a ratio of 1 to 172.

Former Labor and Independence MK Einat Wilf said it is important to debunk the widespread image of Palestinian refugees "huddled in tents.

She cited an EU diplomat who told her: "Do not tell anyone – I know middle class families in Ramallah."

She said the "EU says Palestinians know they won't return to Israel" but urged to the EU "to start telling them that."

Dr. Jonathan Schanzer, vice president for research at the Washington-based Foundation for Defense of Democracies, discussed the "manufactured refugee crisis" among the Palestinians and raised the question of whether UNRWA is a "pro- Palestinian organization," because the organization is pushing back against reforms in Washington. He asked what a Palestinian state would look like, and whether Palestinians could sustain it.

Benjamin Weinthal is a European affairs correspondent for The Jerusalem Post and a fellow with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=305868 (http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=305868)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 10, 2013, 11:26:32 AM
You know the argument is lost when they shout 'anti-semite'.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 02:35:56 PM
Sorry, did I miss the bit where it said anything about antisemitism?





No. I just read it again, and still couldn't see one word about antisemitism. Don't worry though, Seafoid will be along soon to get that particular party going.

If you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
When are people going to realise that they aren't hearing the whole truth from Gaza? Hamas only let you read what they want you to read.



UN Reports the Truth: Hamas Killed BBC Reporter's Baby in Gaza

The UN has issued a report that plainly explains Israel's Pillar of Defense operation and exposes Hamas lies to the BBC.


AAFont Size
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 3/10/2013, 4:42 PM


The United Nations has issued a report with unusual courage and accuracy that plainly tells the tale of Israel's Pillar of Defense counter terror operation – and exposes the lies of Hamas, told to a grieving father and his BBC bureau chief.

In what has become typical of international media, The Washington Post and a BBC bureau chief last November accused and convicted the Israel Defense Forces in a heartrending, angry piece without verifying their information after a fellow editor in Gaza lost his baby son in rocket fire that struck his home.
               
The front page photo of an Arab stringer for a world-class news network, clutching his dead baby son in his arms, tears running down his cheeks, became a powerful icon of the tragedy of the conflict.

It was used by Hamas as propaganda to blacken Israel's name in the media and politically in the international arena as it fought to defend its southern population against Gaza's missile fire.

But apparently very few questioned the source of the rocket fire – certainly not the grieving father, Jihad Misharawi, who at his son's funeral blamed "the Jews"  – nor did BBC Middle East bureau chief Paul Danahar, who came to Gaza to support his colleague, or The Washington Post, which printed the story, written by Max Fisher and "foreign staff", with photos, pub;ished on the front page.

Photos of the damaged home were duly posted, along with a photo of the little child, who is indeed beautiful, and the heartbreaking photo of a grieving father carrying what appears to be his dead son wrapped in shrouds.

"An Israeli round hit Misharawi's four-room home in Gaza Wednesday, killing his son, according to BBC Middle East bureau chief Paul Danahar, who arrived in Gaza earlier that Thursday," Fisher reported in his article along with the paper's "foreign staff" on November 15. "Misharawi's sister-in-law was also killed, and his brother wounded. Misharawi told Danahar that, when the round landed, there was no fighting in his residential neighborhood.

"We're all one team in Gaza," Danahar told me," Fisher wrote, "saying that Misharawi is a BBC video and photo editor. After spending a 'few hours' with his grieving colleague, he wrote on Twitter, 'Question asked here is: If Israel can kill a man riding on a moving motorbike (as they did last month), how did Jihad's son get killed."

Answer:  Jihad's son was killed by Hamas, according to independent investigators from the United Nations. He was murdered by the journalist's own neighbors, the very men who purport to be his biggest protectors, who live in the surrounding buildings in the city where he lives.

According to the advanced version of its report released by the U.N. Human Rights Council released late last week, "On 14 November, a woman, her 11-month-old infant, and an 18-year-old adult an Al-Zaitoun were killed by what appeared to be a Palestinian rocket that fell short of Israel."

A footnote to the section says the case was personally investigated by the U.N. OHCHR, and that investigators believe the attack emanated from Hamas. The terrorist organization – as well as its allied terrorist groups, such as the Islamic Jihad – is well known for launching attacks against Israel from within residential areas in Gaza and maximizing the use of its human shields.
The U.N. document reveals Gaza terrorists fired more than 1,500 rockets at Israel between November 14-21, 2012. For the first time, a number of the missiles reached Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Six Israelis were killed, including four civilians, and 239 Israelis were wounded. Gaza terrorists readily admitted to aiming at civilian targets.

"While some projectiles were directed at military objectives, many, if not the vast majority of the Palestinian attacks on Israel constituted indiscriminate attacks," noted the report. "Such attacks violate international humanitarian law".
"Most rockets fired by the armed groups did not seem to be directed at a specific military objective. Furthermore many Palestinian armed groups directly and indirectly indicated their determination to – and took responsibility for – attacks on Israeli civilians or large population centers in Israel. Such acts clearly violate international humanitarian law, namely the principle of distinction...


"Another issue of serious concern during the crisis was allegations related to rocket attacks launched by Palestinian armed groups from populated areas in Gaza...some of these rockets may have been launched from underground tunnels....eyewitnesses informed OHCHR that on two occasions rockets were launched from an area south of Palestine Stadium in Gaza City, about 100 meters from a residential area...OHCHR received first-hand information indicating that rockets were fired from areas close to civilian buildings in the east of Gaza City... about 300 meters from several residential houses.

"Launching attacks from populated areas constitutes a violation of customary rules of international humanitarian law, i.e. the obligation to take all precautions to protect civilians. By having done so, the civilian population's exposure to the inherent dangers of the military operations taking place around them was greatly heightened.

"The real questions should be, 'Will The Washington Post print a retraction in the same location as its captivating erroneous front page article? An apology? A new photo? How will BBC bureau chief Paul Danahar respond to this U.N. report, and how to correct the erroneous reports he may have disseminated?,'" Israeli veteran journalist and Middle East analyst Hana Levi Julian pointed out.

"Just a few years ago, a BBC bureau chief was kidnapped by a Gaza terrorist organization and held hostage for nearly five months, his life hanging in the balance. By a miracle, negotiators managed to free him and his life was spared," Julian noted.

"With terrorists breathing down this news organization's neck, scrutinizing the actions of each of its local reporters, can the BBC allow itself to report objectively in Gaza?"


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166054 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166054)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 10, 2013, 04:22:37 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 02:35:56 PM
Sorry, did I miss the bit where it said anything about antisemitism?





No. I just read it again, and still couldn't see one word about antisemitism. Don't worry though, Seafoid will be along soon to get that particular party going.

If you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.

I read your posts at the start, but they are absurdly biased and I have better things to do. An argument that absolves Israel of any wrong doing because Hamas is worse, is no argument.

And you shouted anti-semite in the 2nd post on this page. Many of the articles you published do the same. The game is up when that is all that is left.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 04:29:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2013, 04:22:37 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 02:35:56 PM
Sorry, did I miss the bit where it said anything about antisemitism?





No. I just read it again, and still couldn't see one word about antisemitism. Don't worry though, Seafoid will be along soon to get that particular party going.

If you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.

I read your posts at the start, but they are absurdly biased and I have better things to do. An argument that absolves Israel of any wrong doing because Hamas is worse, is no argument.

And you shouted anti-semite in the 2nd post on this page. Many of the articles you published do the same. The game is up when that is all that is left.

Maybe you didn't read this bit. I'll post it again.

QuoteIf you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 10, 2013, 04:31:20 PM
NEW YORK – At a small conference at the Harvard Club in Manhattan on Thursday, a host of dignitaries and experts, including Israel's envoy to the UN Ron Prosor, addressed the UN's classification of Palestinian refugees as the principal stumbling block to a peace agreement between Israel and the PLO.The conference was the opening salvo in the direction of drafting of US legislation meant to end the automatic transmission of refugee status to the descendents of Palestinians that has been taking place since 1948

More rank hypocrisy. The Jewish claim to Palestinian land is based on the
bible
. Written several years before 1948  ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 10, 2013, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 04:29:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2013, 04:22:37 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 02:35:56 PM
Sorry, did I miss the bit where it said anything about antisemitism?





No. I just read it again, and still couldn't see one word about antisemitism. Don't worry though, Seafoid will be along soon to get that particular party going.

If you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.

I read your posts at the start, but they are absurdly biased and I have better things to do. An argument that absolves Israel of any wrong doing because Hamas is worse, is no argument.

And you shouted anti-semite in the 2nd post on this page. Many of the articles you published do the same. The game is up when that is all that is left.

Maybe you didn't read this bit. I'll post it again.

QuoteIf you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.
Give it up
Beaver. You are worse than a Jewish Syferus.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 04:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 10, 2013, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 04:29:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2013, 04:22:37 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 02:35:56 PM
Sorry, did I miss the bit where it said anything about antisemitism?





No. I just read it again, and still couldn't see one word about antisemitism. Don't worry though, Seafoid will be along soon to get that particular party going.

If you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.

I read your posts at the start, but they are absurdly biased and I have better things to do. An argument that absolves Israel of any wrong doing because Hamas is worse, is no argument.

And you shouted anti-semite in the 2nd post on this page. Many of the articles you published do the same. The game is up when that is all that is left.

Maybe you didn't read this bit. I'll post it again.

QuoteIf you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.
Give it up
Beaver. You are worse than a Jewish Syferus.

Here we go again.


Once more for the remedial class.


QuoteIf you are going to argue against it, then use a reasoned argument, not some 3rd rate put down. Show me where the article is wrong, and we can debate it, otherwise, you are just showing yourself up as being intransigent.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 10, 2013, 05:13:26 PM
You are the man with the 3rd rate put down of 'anti-semite'.

And I will read what I choose, not what you shout at me.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 05:24:30 PM
I have referred to only one person on this board as an antisemite, Seafoid. Would you like to argue that he isn't?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 10, 2013, 05:46:12 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 05:24:30 PM
I have referred to only one person on this board as an antisemite, Seafoid. Would you like to argue that he isn't?

He isn't, there is no argument.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 07:04:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2013, 05:46:12 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 05:24:30 PM
I have referred to only one person on this board as an antisemite, Seafoid. Would you like to argue that he isn't?

He isn't, there is no argument.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUnlFFqnZRkvHeovVt8HCr9OPdTvR_zkx10cNThB6N7QhIf6kuOg)


Even Seafoid can't believe you just said that.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 10, 2013, 07:10:25 PM
Now you speak for Seafoid?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: trileacman on March 10, 2013, 07:18:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2013, 07:10:25 PM
Now you speak for Seafoid?

Don't waste your life arguing this shite, go back to cataloging the downfall of Arsenal/Ireland on the other threads. It's like swimming in treacle in here.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 10, 2013, 08:00:44 PM
Is Beaver MikeSheehy? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 10, 2013, 10:16:21 PM
Do you boys even have an argument, or do you call playing the man, an argument?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 06:40:17 AM
The argument is pretty simple

There are 613 Jewish orthodox mitzvot regarding how to live a decent life

Zionism doesn't qualify. Torturing the neighbours is bad for the Jewish soul.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 08:12:49 AM
Two years ago today, 5 members of the same family were slaughtered in their home by 2 palestinian youths. This was barbaric even by Israeli - palestinian standards, and stands as a reminder as to why Israelis are determined to keep the security barrier at any cost.



QuoteAccording to Israeli investigators, Amjad and Hakim Awad had attempted to acquire weapons from a Popular Front militant in Awarta. After he refused, they decided to carry out the attack using knives. Just after 9 pm on Friday night, the two left Awarta carrying several knives, an umbrella, and wire-cutting shears. The two tried to cut through the settlement's security fence, but eventually climbed over it. An initial probe showed that the fence around Itamar functioned properly. At about the same time that they infiltrated, an alarm sounded in the settlement's security room, indicating the exact location where they entered. But neither the settlement's civilian security team nor the civilian security officer, who went to the site of the disturbance and found nothing out of order, informed soldiers patrolling the area of the fence, concluding that an animal had set off the alarm, although procedures prescribe that the IDF is to be informed of any alarm.

After crossing the fence, Amjad and Hakim walked 400 meters into the settlement. The perpetrators first broke into a house of the Chai family who were on vacation, searching all the rooms.They stole an M-16 assault rifle, ammunition, a helmet, and a kevlar vest. They waited an hour and entered the Fogels' house at around 10:30 pm According to the indictment, the two entered the children's room, told eleven-year-old Yoav, who had been awakened by their entry not to be afraid, then took him to a nearby room, slashed his throat, and stabbed him in the chest. Hakim Awad then strangled four-year-old Elad with Amjad Awad stabbing him twice in the chest. The two next entered the parents' room, and turned on the light, waking them up. The parents then struggled with the attackers. Ehud Fogel was repeatedly stabbed in the neck, and Ruth Fogel was stabbed in the neck and back and then shot when the suspects saw that she was not dead. The suspects then left the house. According to the confessions of the suspects, they feared that the shots had been heard. When they went outside, they saw a patrol vehicle, but realized that they had not been discovered when it did nothing. The two then argued over whether to withdraw or carry out attacks in other homes, with Hakim insisting that they return immediately to Awarta, and Amjad arguing that they should return to the home and steal another weapon. Amjad then re-entered the Fogel home. When 3-month old Hadas began crying, Amjad stabbed her, fearing the cries would attract attention. According to several accounts, the infant was decapitated., though one source says that although her throat was deeply slit, she was only "nearly decapitated". The attackers did not notice two other children asleep in the house at the time. In their confessions they said and that they would not have hesitated to kill them if they had noticed them. The perpetrators also stole Ehud's M-16 rifle. They left the settlement without being detected.

Amjad and Hakim Awad returned to Awarta on foot, and appealed to Hakim's uncle, PFLP militant Salah Awad, for assistance, and gave him a detailed description of the attack. Salah helped them conceal their stolen weapons and burn their bloodstained clothes, and later transferred the stolen weapons to Jad Avid, a contact in Ramallah for hiding.

The bodies were discovered by Tamar Fogel, the 12-year-old daughter of the family who arrived home around midnight after a youth outing.After finding that the door was locked, she asked her neighbor, Rabbi Ya'akov Cohen, for help. He noticed tracks and mud near the house, and brought a weapon with him. The two then woke the sleeping 6-year old boy by calling through the window, and he opened the door, after which Cohen returned to his home. When the girl discovered the murders, she ran outside screaming, and the Rabbi ran back, firing several shots into the air to alert security personnel. Rabbi Cohen, who later entered the house with the girl, said that her two-year-old brother "was lying next to his bleeding parents, shaking them with his hands and trying to get them to wake up, while crying... The sight in the house was shocking." paramedics and ZAKA (Disaster Victim Identification) volunteers were called to the scene, including ZAKA regional commander Gil Bismot. Paramedics followed a trail of toys and blood to the bedroom, where they discovered the first three bodies: the mother, father and infant. In the next room they found the body of the 11-year-old sibling. Finally they reached the last bedroom, where the 4-year-old boy was severely injured and dying. The toddler died of his wounds despite the efforts of medical personnel.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_attack





The two palestinians that carried out the attack were aged 17 and 18. Their families swore they were in their own village at the time of the attack and even claimed that one of the boys had been tortured into giving a confession.



"Both suspects confessed to the killings and offered a detailed account. They expressed no remorse for their actions, and performed a reenactment of the attack before security officials. Amjad Awad declared that he was proud of what he did and had no regrets, even if he was sentenced to death. "



The next time anyone tells you that the big bad Israelis killed a "boy" of 17 for attacking the security barrier, just remember what a "boy" this age done to these children after getting over the security barrier. Neither were members of any "faction" which some here think makes a difference when they are fired upon while attacking the security barrier. This is precisely why they shoot.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 09:37:43 AM
Barbarism is confining 1.5 million people to less than 2000 calories each indefinitely, bombing their sewerage systems, denying them food imports etc ad infinitum.

I wouldn't confine the Ulster posters to a concentration camp because of the actions of a few catholic killers but Israel will always use the marquee deaths of selected Jews to punish the entire Palestinian people.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 09:41:56 AM
Two adults and 3 children, mutilated, (one of them a 3 month old baby nearly decapitated) and all you can come up with is that load of crap.

Bravo.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: trueblue1234 on March 11, 2013, 09:56:25 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 09:37:43 AM
Barbarism is confining 1.5 million people to less than 2000 calories each indefinitely, bombing their sewerage systems, denying them food imports etc ad infinitum.

I wouldn't confine the Ulster posters to a concentration camp because of the actions of a few catholic killers but Israel will always use the marquee deaths of selected Jews to punish the entire Palestinian people.

Err do you not mean republican?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 11:07:06 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on March 11, 2013, 09:56:25 AM
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 09:37:43 AM
Barbarism is confining 1.5 million people to less than 2000 calories each indefinitely, bombing their sewerage systems, denying them food imports etc ad infinitum.

I wouldn't confine the Ulster posters to a concentration camp because of the actions of a few catholic killers but Israel will always use the marquee deaths of selected Jews to punish the entire Palestinian people.

Err do you not mean republican?
I was translating for beaver who oppresses based on religion .
But Republican would be correct .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 11:08:18 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 09:41:56 AM
Two adults and 3 children, mutilated, (one of them a 3 month old baby nearly decapitated) and all you can come up with is that load of crap.

Bravo.
All you can say is
1 Antisemite
2 Barbarian

Nothing else to say whatsoever
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 11, 2013, 11:11:18 AM
Exactly 4 years ago today, we were taken on buses on a tour of the area's in Gaza that were hardest hit during the 21 day massacre unleashed on the beseiged region by Israel/USA. Nothing we had seen on the TV had prepared us for what we witnessed. Total devastation in the northern area's where hardly one building was left standing. What was left of agricultural lands were either bombed or cut up by Caterpillar Dozers.

In those 3 weeks, 1,400 people were murdered, 400 of whom were only children. 28 members of the Samouni family were murdered as they were put into a house by occupation soldiers and then the house was bombed. 5,000 people were injured, and 50,000 left homeless.

Each and everyone of us were left in a state of shock and vowed to do all we could to raise awareness of the crimes against not only the defenseless  Palestinian people, but severe crimes against humanity.

This is a short video I took as we drove through northern Gaza. It doesn't really do justice to what we witnessed, but it gives an insight into what really happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKOellc4DVE
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 11, 2013, 11:17:36 AM
A selection of photo's from that day:

(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Facebook/Leg%205%20Tyrone%20To%20Gaza/2626_67990404313_464890_n.jpg)


(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Facebook/Leg%205%20Tyrone%20To%20Gaza/2626_67990309313_607731_n.jpg)


(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Facebook/Leg%205%20Tyrone%20To%20Gaza/2626_67990289313_7199444_n.jpg)


(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Facebook/Leg%205%20Tyrone%20To%20Gaza/2626_67990294313_6263576_n.jpg)


(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Facebook/Leg%205%20Tyrone%20To%20Gaza/2626_67990314313_1259804_n.jpg)


(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Facebook/Leg%205%20Tyrone%20To%20Gaza/2626_67990254313_4793565_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 11:18:24 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 11, 2013, 11:11:18 AM
Exactly 4 years ago today, we were taken on buses on a tour of the area's in Gaza that were hardest hit during the 21 day massacre unleashed on the beseiged region by Israel/USA. Nothing we had seen on the TV had prepared us for what we witnessed. Total devastation in the northern area's where hardly one building was left standing. What was left of agricultural lands were either bombed or cut up by Caterpillar Dozers.

In those 3 weeks, 1,400 people were murdered, 400 of whom were only children. 28 members of the Samouni family were murdered as they were put into a house by occupation soldiers and then the house was bombed. 5,000 people were injured, and 50,000 left homeless.

Each and everyone of us were left in a state of shock and vowed to do all we could to raise awareness of the crimes against not only the defenseless  Palestinian people, but severe crimes against humanity.

This is a short video I took as we drove through northern Gaza. It doesn't really do justice to what we witnessed, but it gives an insight into what really happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKOellc4DVE
But you have to remember GHD that a few dead Jewish settlers  justify everything that happens to Gaza in the eyes of Zionism. And it takes years of indoctrination to train Israeli  soldiers to do what they do to Gaza. And the cost will eventually be paid by Israeli society.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 11:32:47 AM
Give her Dixie sees the destruction with his own eyes. This is what it is all for :


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-going-for-one-million-jews-in-the-west-bank.premium-1.508510

Now the game has ended and real life will begin.  The third Netanyahu government has one clear goal: enlarging the settlements and achieving the vision of "a million Jews living in Judea and Samaria." This magic number will thwart the division of the land and prevent once and for all the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 11:52:33 AM
Disgusting attempt at oneupmanship.


Three children were butchered in their beds by a 17 and an 18 year old. One of those children was a baby, who had her throat slit from ear to ear to stop her crying. They were discovered by their 11 year old sister. When neighbours eventually entered the house they found a 2 year old toddler shaking his dead parents to try and waken them.

There is a special kind of warped hatred that can make someone be proud to do this kind of savagery. Killing in the heat of battle is completely different from the stalking and premeditated slaughtering of 3 children. You know that, and I find your attempt to shift the focus totally disgraceful.


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 11:57:11 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 11:52:33 AM
Disgusting attempt at oneupmanship.


Three children were butchered in their beds by a 17 and an 18 year old. One of those children was a baby, who had her throat slit from ear to ear to stop her crying. They were discovered by their 11 year old sister. When neighbours eventually entered the house they found a 2 year old toddler shaking his dead parents to try and waken them.

There is a special kind of warped hatred that can make someone be proud to do this kind of savagery. Killing in the heat of battle is completely different from the stalking and premeditated slaughtering of 3 children. You know that, and I find your attempt to shift the focus totally disgraceful.
No it isn't. Political murder is all the same- whether it is a Jew in an office controlling a drone or a Palestinian with a knife.

Israel hasn't been in a real war war since 1982.  Gaza is slaughter, not war.
Israel tried the same in Lebanon in 2006 and went home with its tail between its legs.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 12:08:01 PM
Now you show yourself as the low-life you are.

Even most of the palestinian groups in Gaza had the decency to denounce these animals for the vile act they committed, all except GHD's mates in Hamas. To go out with the intention of slitting the throat of children deserves everyones contempt, but our resident jihadists fail to see the problem.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 12:20:06 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9b/The_victims_Itamar_massacre_.jpg/220px-The_victims_Itamar_massacre_.jpg)

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQO4GN2NJ9duS7vO4CxM1yTpedBGzrz4pnkoaE4Rl6CLIDFow9R)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Gqg6wlsY1vs/TyWTPWdYixI/AAAAAAAAJik/B1y6c0McF8k/s1600/110314_yoavfogel.jpg)

(http://s3.vidimg.popscreen.com/original/2/eGhrbnd2MTI=_o_massacre-israeli-fogel-family-by-a-palestinian-terrorist.jpg)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 12:25:18 PM
Do you want pictures of all the palestinians Israel has killed since those settlers were murdered?
What are Jews doing in the West Bank anyway? 

It isn't Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 12:25:18 PM
Do you want pictures of all the palestinians Israel has killed since those settlers were murdered?
What are Jews doing in the West Bank anyway? 

It isn't Israel.
So it's OK for the Hamas poster boy to post photos of flattened buildings, but it isn't to show photos of the subject at hand.

It's their fault they got murdered, shouldn't have been there in the first place. Gotchya.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 12:39:15 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 12:25:18 PM
Do you want pictures of all the palestinians Israel has killed since those settlers were murdered?
What are Jews doing in the West Bank anyway? 

It isn't Israel.
So it's OK for the Hamas poster boy to post photos of flattened buildings, but it isn't to show photos of the subject at hand.

It's their fault they got murdered, shouldn't have been there in the first place. Gotchya.
They have no right to be there. But they shouldn't have been killed. Nobody should die for Zionism.

They are great PR fodder for people like you though so it worked out well, didn't it`?
And of course it takes away from what GHD posted too, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 01:03:54 PM
Should all good Irish men slit the throats of any Brits living in Ireland? After all, they're occupying part of our land and shouldn't be here.

GHD only posted those photos to try and detract from the story I posted, and will be seen as the stunt it was by anyone with any sense. He should be ashamed of himself, but he won't. He likes to cosy up to his murderous chums in Hamas too much.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: LeoMc on March 11, 2013, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 01:03:54 PM
Should all good Irish men slit the throats of any Brits living in Ireland? After all, they're occupying part of our land and shouldn't be here.

GHD only posted those photos to try and detract from the story I posted, and will be seen as the stunt it was by anyone with any sense. He should be ashamed of himself, but he won't. He likes to cosy up to his murderous chums in Hamas too much.

He has already answered you.
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 12:39:15 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 12:25:18 PM
Do you want pictures of all the palestinians Israel has killed since those settlers were murdered?
What are Jews doing in the West Bank anyway? 

It isn't Israel.
So it's OK for the Hamas poster boy to post photos of flattened buildings, but it isn't to show photos of the subject at hand.

It's their fault they got murdered, shouldn't have been there in the first place. Gotchya.
They have no right to be there. But they shouldn't have been killed. Nobody should die for Zionism.

They are great PR fodder for people like you though so it worked out well, didn't it`?
And of course it takes away from what GHD posted too, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 01:36:10 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on March 11, 2013, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 01:03:54 PM
Should all good Irish men slit the throats of any Brits living in Ireland? After all, they're occupying part of our land and shouldn't be here.

GHD only posted those photos to try and detract from the story I posted, and will be seen as the stunt it was by anyone with any sense. He should be ashamed of himself, but he won't. He likes to cosy up to his murderous chums in Hamas too much.

He has already answered you.
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 12:39:15 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 12:25:18 PM
Do you want pictures of all the palestinians Israel has killed since those settlers were murdered?
What are Jews doing in the West Bank anyway? 

It isn't Israel.
So it's OK for the Hamas poster boy to post photos of flattened buildings, but it isn't to show photos of the subject at hand.

It's their fault they got murdered, shouldn't have been there in the first place. Gotchya.
They have no right to be there. But they shouldn't have been killed. Nobody should die for Zionism.

They are great PR fodder for people like you though so it worked out well, didn't it`?
And of course it takes away from what GHD posted too, doesn't it?
Jewish settlers belong in Israel. It is illegal under international law to settle a population in occupied territory.
Israel should take the f**kers home.
And they are civilians so they shouldn't be assaulted.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 01:51:09 PM
But that's a problem in itself. Hamas etc don't even want ANY Israeli state. They don't want a single jew anywhere from the Jordan to the Med, even though there have been jews living (and for much of that time, ruling) the place they call their home, long before there was any muslim religion. The palestinians are just going to have to get used to the fact that there is an Israeli state there, and it ain't going away.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 01:51:09 PM
But that's a problem in itself. Hamas etc don't even want ANY Israeli state. They don't want a single jew anywhere from the Jordan to the Med, even though there have been jews living (and for much of that time, ruling) the place they call their home, long before there was any muslim religion. The palestinians are just going to have to get used to the fact that there is an Israeli state there, and it ain't going away.
The israeli state runs from the Med to the Jordan. Only Jews have full rights in it.
And that state is fucked long term. Because you can't sell apartheid to the world.
Not even Jews can. Not even whining antisemitism.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 02:10:30 PM
Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state? Please give me an example of where you think the borders should be.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 02:21:15 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 02:10:30 PM
Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state? Please give me an example of where you think the borders should be.
I think they have a right to a state. They are there for 3 generations. Most Israelis are just ordinary people and they
don't have an alternative. So

1947 UN recommendations.
Plus compensation for refugees.

But I think it's too late for that now. I think it will be one state . Formalised.
It already is one state. 


The whole Jewish land spiel is bullshit.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 11, 2013, 05:09:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2013, 02:21:15 PM
I think they have a right to a state. They are there for 3 generations. Most Israelis are just ordinary people and they
don't have an alternative. So

At least we agree on something, even though the Palestinians are against the whole idea of Israel as a state. But at least we're getting somewhere.

Quote1947 UN recommendations.
Plus compensation for refugees.
Personally, I can't see how 1947 borders could work in real life. They split up the region far more than it is at the minute, with nobody in Jerusalem. (http://lw.palestineremembered.com/Maps/New/Map_UNPartition1947.gif)
Without Israel, or both sides to administer Jerusalem I can't see how Israel would be willing to accept that, seeing as when E Jerusalem was under Jordanian rule, jews weren't allowed to go there. North, south and west Jerusalem are predominately jewish anyway, so would it not be better for there to be an agreed tract of land fron the bulk of Israeli land to the west of jerusalem as a corridor to Jerusalem? No matter what way it's carved up, everyone is going to have to give up something. UN administration in Jerusalem would just be a farce.
I totally agree about compensation for anyone disposessed by the conflict, but where do you draw the line? As I have said before, there are just as many displaced jews, as palestinians, so what happens about them? The agreement between Israel and the palestinians would have to include the adjoining arab nations to have any hope of working, and they too would have to pay up for their part in the whole mess.

QuoteBut I think it's too late for that now. I think it will be one state . Formalised.
It already is one state. 


The whole Jewish land spiel is bullshit.
I disagree about it being too late. For there to one formalised state, then the only way Israel could hold it's jewish majority, is by your favourite word, apartheid. That just isn't going to happen. There is no way on earth the US could continue to support Israel after that, and Israel just couldn't survive without US support. (Even if you think it's happening already)
I think that the two state solution is the only feasible option, but it will take a hell of a lot of diplomacy for Israel to feel comfortable with having a sovereign palestinian state, just itching to take on Israel and settle a few scores. Both sides have a lot of growing up to do. But I would bet my last penny that there will be a physical wall between the two for a long time to come.

The whole "jewish land" spiel is bullshit and can't reasonably be used as an argument. But what the palestinians have to accept is that there was a jewish state there long before any of them were, so an accommodation needs to be made, that both sides will have to learn to live side by side. The jews had that land taken from them every bit as much as palestinians feel they are having it taken from them.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: LeoMc on March 12, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
Are we finally moving towards dialogue here? :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 12, 2013, 03:10:07 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on March 12, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
Are we finally moving towards dialogue here? :o
Praise be to Allah, or is that G_d?  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 13, 2013, 01:03:50 PM
The chosen people get back to doing what they do best. Killing people and commiting a war crime......

Illegal Israeli bullet claims a Palestinian life

Israeli forces shot dead a young Palestinian protester Tuesday night using bullets prohibited by international law.

Mahmoud Adel Faris al-Teiti, 25, was hit in the head by expanding "dum dum" bullets during clashes at the al-Fawwar refugee camp near Hebron, according to local media.

"Dum dum" bullets, first made by British colonial forces in India's Calcutta, expand on impact to limit penetration and produce a larger diameter wound. The use of expanding bullets is prohibited by the 1899 Hague Declaration and is listed as a war crime in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Article 8(2)(b)(xix)).

Witnesses said Israeli soldiers raided Fuwar and opened fire after coming under a barrage of rocks from local Palestinians. Hospital officials said a 25-year-old man died after being shot in the head and two others were wounded by the Israelis.

Two other young men were shot and injured by live ammunition. Another six were hit by rubber-coated bullets.

Israeli forces say they only shoot live fire in 'life-threatening situations', but reports of their use in recent weeks have been abundant.

According to Palestinian officials, al-Teiti was the sixth Palestinian killed by Israeli fire in the Israeli-occupied West Bank since the beginning of this year. A seventh was killed on the Gaza border on January 11.

Palestinians have also taken to the streets to protest against Israel's extrajudicial jailing of thousands of their countrymen. The resulting confrontations, often bloody, have drawn warnings on both sides that a full Palestinian revolt could be brewing.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/illegal-israeli-bullet-claims-palestinian-life
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 13, 2013, 02:33:59 PM
I see you neglected to mention he was in Hamas and that the mob he was part of had cornered the soldiers, throwing petrol bombs. I can't think why they fired on them.  ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 13, 2013, 04:44:44 PM
Thousands attend funeral of man killed by Israeli army

HEBRON (Ma'an) -- Clashes broke out between Israeli forces and mourners on Wednesday at the funeral of Mahmoud al-Teiti, who was shot dead by an Israeli soldier in a refugee camp near Hebron a day earlier.

Al-Teiti, a 25-year-old journalism student, died in Abu al-Hasan al-Qasim Hospital in Yatta on Tuesday. Medics said he had been shot in the head by an expanding "dum dum" bullet during an Israeli military raid on al-Fawwar camp.

PLC members, faction leaders and the governor of Hebron attended the funeral.

Mourners marched through the camp carrying al-Teiti's body, and called on national and Islamic factions to respond to the killing. Al-Teiti was buried in a cemetery in the camp.

At the entrance to al-Fawwar, Palestinians threw stones and empty bottles at soldiers, who fired tear gas and rubber bullets. Four people were injured by rubber bullets.

An Israeli military spokesman told Ma'an that forces fired "riot dispersal means" at Palestinians who threw rocks at soldiers.

Senior Fatah official Abbas Zaki said the killing of al-Teiti was a criminal act of complete brutality committed in cold blood.

He called on the international community to hold Israel to account for shooting at unarmed civilians.

The Al-Quds Brigades, the armed wing of Islamic Jihad, vowed to retaliate to "the execution" of al-Teiti,

"Zionists know only the language of blood. Yesterday they fired their machineguns at young people in al-Fawwar refugee camp, and executed Mahmoud al-Teiti at close range," a brigades spokesman said.

"We will work on retaliating to this gruesome crime," he added.

Citing the results of an initial investigation, an Israeli military spokeswoman said the troops had been attacked with fire-bombs on a nearby road and pursued the assailants into al-Fawwar, where they encountered the stone-throwers.

"Feeling a threat to their lives, they (the soldiers) fired toward the assaulters," the spokeswoman said, confirming that a Palestinian was killed in the shooting.


http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=574638&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter#.UUCffzeRTQ0.facebook

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 13, 2013, 06:11:40 PM
QuoteCiting the results of an initial investigation, an Israeli military spokeswoman said the troops had been attacked with fire-bombs on a nearby road and pursued the assailants into al-Fawwar, where they encountered the stone-throwers.
Is it beyond belief that they were defending themselves?
I think I'll wait for an official enquiry before throwing accusations.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 13, 2013, 08:46:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 13, 2013, 06:11:40 PM
QuoteCiting the results of an initial investigation, an Israeli military spokeswoman said the troops had been attacked with fire-bombs on a nearby road and pursued the assailants into al-Fawwar, where they encountered the stone-throwers.
Is it beyond belief that they were defending themselves?
I think I'll wait for an official enquiry before throwing accusations.

An Israeli inquiry is worthless . Israel doesn't do responsibility. You won't see Jewish soldiers court martialled for the  murder of civilians.
And what are Israeli soldiers doing in the West Bank anyway? Running an illegal occupation for the sake of half a million miserable Jewish settlers who think God is theirs. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 13, 2013, 11:47:38 PM
There's nearly a million now.



Nice to have you back Seafoid, it's not the same when you get into a proper debate. ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 14, 2013, 08:48:20 AM
I think that the two state solution is the only feasible option,

That was in 1965. not now. 700000 settlers . The only reason they are there is to kill the 2 SS.
who is going to take the Jews out of Hebron?

but it will take a hell of a lot of diplomacy for Israel to feel comfortable with having a sovereign palestinian state, just itching to take on Israel and settle a few scores. Both sides have a lot of growing up to do. But I would bet my last penny that there will be a physical wall between the two for a long time to come.

Israelis like the status quo. they like the fact that the Palestinians are over there under the heel of the IDF.
It's worth at least 20% of their income. Very hard to get them to see that peace would be better.


The whole "jewish land" spiel is bullshit and can't reasonably be used as an argument. But what the palestinians have to accept is that there was a jewish state there long before any of them were, so an accommodation needs to be made,

Palestinians have come around to the fact that the Jews are there . It has nothing to do with the Bible.
There were French soldiers in Acre in 1254. Part of a crusader state. Do the palestinians have to recognise the rights of France to their country too?   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 15, 2013, 01:56:22 PM
In today's Irish Times:

Sir, – A week ago, I received an official invitation from Ireland's representative to the Palestinian Authority, inviting me to celebrate St Patrick's Day in Jerusalem in the company of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Alan Shatter.

The event was scheduled for March 13th, in the middle of Mr Shatter's five-day visit to Israel.

As I am currently working with the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) in Gaza, I was surprised to get the invitation. The Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) understands the restrictions that apply when travelling in and out of Gaza as a result of the illegal Israeli blockade, but I thought that perhaps it was organising an exception for those of us based here. However, I was ultimately informed that, while Israel might allow me to enter through Erez, I would not be allowed to return to Gaza that way.

It is roughly 50 miles across Israeli territory to reach Jerusalem, but Palestinians in Gaza are not permitted to make that journey. This is life under the blockade – Palestinians are unable to visit their relatives and friends in the rest of Palestine and cannot work or study outside of Gaza. Only a few international officials and aid workers from the largest NGOs are allowed through the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing.

This example illustrates the sad reality for Palestinians here, particularly regarding the harsh restrictions on movement. Gaza is indeed an open-air prison. Moreover, in recent weeks, Israel has tightened its grip by further restricting crossings and by reducing the flow of desperately needed goods into this territory. Israel has killed four Palestinians in Gaza and wounded more than 90 since the "ceasefire" agreement that ended last November's war.

It is crucial that Mr Shatter and the Government make their voices heard against this appalling blockade and let Israel know that it must stop now. It is morally wrong to treat Israel as a friend of Ireland while the Palestinian people are abused in this manner. The humanitarian crisis in Gaza is the consequence of political decisions taken in Israel and could be ended tomorrow. – Yours, etc,

CHRIS ANDREWS,

El Shawwa Building,

Southern Rimal,

Gaza,

Palestine.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 15, 2013, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 15, 2013, 01:56:22 PM
In today's Irish Times:

Sir, – A week ago, I received an official invitation from Ireland's representative to the Palestinian Authority, inviting me to celebrate St Patrick's Day in Jerusalem in the company of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Alan Shatter.

The event was scheduled for March 13th, in the middle of Mr Shatter's five-day visit to Israel.

As I am currently working with the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) in Gaza, I was surprised to get the invitation. The Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) understands the restrictions that apply when travelling in and out of Gaza as a result of the illegal Israeli blockade, but I thought that perhaps it was organising an exception for those of us based here. However, I was ultimately informed that, while Israel might allow me to enter through Erez, I would not be allowed to return to Gaza that way.

It is roughly 50 miles across Israeli territory to reach Jerusalem, but Palestinians in Gaza are not permitted to make that journey. This is life under the blockade – Palestinians are unable to visit their relatives and friends in the rest of Palestine and cannot work or study outside of Gaza. Only a few international officials and aid workers from the largest NGOs are allowed through the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing.

This example illustrates the sad reality for Palestinians here, particularly regarding the harsh restrictions on movement. Gaza is indeed an open-air prison. Moreover, in recent weeks, Israel has tightened its grip by further restricting crossings and by reducing the flow of desperately needed goods into this territory. Israel has killed four Palestinians in Gaza and wounded more than 90 since the "ceasefire" agreement that ended last November's war.

It is crucial that Mr Shatter and the Government make their voices heard against this appalling blockade and let Israel know that it must stop now. It is morally wrong to treat Israel as a friend of Ireland while the Palestinian people are abused in this manner. The humanitarian crisis in Gaza is the consequence of political decisions taken in Israel and could be ended tomorrow. – Yours, etc,

CHRIS ANDREWS,

El Shawwa Building,

Southern Rimal,

Gaza,

Palestine.

Shatter is a Zionist. He doesn't believe in equality for non Jews in "the land of Israel". 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 03:19:36 PM
The only people to "have tightened its grip by further restricting crossings and by reducing the flow of desperately needed goods into this territory" was Hamas. There were over 100 trucks at one crossing alone with food that was rapidly rotting. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 15, 2013, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 03:19:36 PM
The only people to "have tightened its grip by further restricting crossings and by reducing the flow of desperately needed goods into this territory" was Hamas. There were over 100 trucks at one crossing alone with food that was rapidly rotting. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
Why doesn't Israel allow the free flow of food into Gaza?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 15, 2013, 05:09:47 PM
Since 1967:

0 Israeli homes demolished by Palestinians;
24,813 Palestinian homes demolished by Israel;

That isn't a war.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 15, 2013, 05:11:41 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 15, 2013, 05:09:47 PM
Since 1967:

0 Israeli homes demolished by Palestinians;
24,813 Palestinian homes demolished by Israel;

That isn't a war.
It is just Jewish bigotry dressed up as religion and "security". 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 15, 2013, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 03:19:36 PM
The only people to "have tightened its grip by further restricting crossings and by reducing the flow of desperately needed goods into this territory" was Hamas. There were over 100 trucks at one crossing alone with food that was rapidly rotting. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
Why doesn't Israel allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Hamas allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Egypt allow the free flow of food into Gaza?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:29:59 PM
3-year-old critically injured by stones near Ariel


Vehicle carrying woman, her three daughters, crashes into truck that veered off course due to stones hurled by Palestinians in West Bank road; 3-year-old critically injured; three others moderately wounded

Itamar Fleishman Latest Update:  03.15.13, 00:50 / Israel News 
 
A woman and her three daughters were injured on Thursday in a car accident caused by stones hurled by Palestinians on Route 5 connecting Tel Aviv and Ariel.

One of the girls, three-year-old Adele, was critically wounded, while the mother, Adva Biton, 40, and her two other daughters, Avigail and Naama - ages four and five - sustained moderate injuries.

A truck that veered off course crashed into the woman's car which also swerved as a result of stone throwing. The truck driver was lightly injured. 
Medics evacuated the four-year-old girl to the Chaim Sheba Medical Center in Tel Hashomer and the additional victims were taken to the Rabin Medical Center in Petah Tikva.
The four were on their way back from a visit to their grandmother, Martine Elmakayes. Biton's fourth daughter, eight-year-old Moriya, did not join them as she was visiting a friend.

The Shai District Police confirmed that stones had been hurled at vehicles traveling on Route 5. 
Doctors at the Rabin Medical Center said that Adele suffered a serious head injury and was taken straight into surgery upon her arrival. "We are doing everything to save her," said Dr. Oleg Kaminsky.   

In the meanwhile, the IDF and Shin Ben are still searching for the Palestinians that hurled the stones. It is believed they used a point overlooking Route 5, near Ariel, to hurl the stones and then fled to one of the nearby villages.

Several hours later it was reported that a man and a 10-year-old boy were lightly injured by stones hurled at them on the same road. They were taken to the Hasharon Medical Center in Petah Tikva.
The truck driver told police at the scene that he pulled over after he heard a thud, thinking it was the result of a flat tire.
"At that point I noticed the stones on the road," the driver said, "and when I came back to the truck I realized that the car had crashed into the truck and was basically buried under the truck."

A few hours after the accident, residents of the area started to arrive at the scene of the crash to pray for the health of the toddler, reading from the Book of Psalms and protesting stones hurling.

Gershon Mesika, head of the Shomron Regional Council, visited the Biton family at the Rabin Medical Center in Petah Tikva. "The entire Israeli people is with you, praying for the recovery of the injured," Mesika said. "The unjust policy that insists on categorizing stone hurling as disorderly conduct rather than as terror is completely irresponsible."

According to Mesika, "In the past couple of months, incidents of stone hurling have become more prevalent, but with no response – due to restrictions that politicians have imposed on the IDF. It's about time we come to terms with the fact that a stone can kill. We must view stone hurling as terror."

Rabbi Aharon Cohen of the Yakir settlement, in which the family resides, said that the family was inflicted by "terror that has been growing more frequent over the last few weeks – terror that some have been taking lightly." 
In November, Ziona Kalla, wife of singer Itzik Kalla, sustained serious injuries as a result of stones hurled at her car near Beitar Illit in the West Bank.

Defense officials said that stone attacks have increased in the past few months and are now a form of popular terrorism. The IDF has placed traps in key points and stepped up its patrols in the West Bank to combat the phenomenon.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4356683,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4356683,00.html)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 15, 2013, 06:49:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:29:59 PM
3-year-old critically injured by stones near Ariel


Vehicle carrying woman, her three daughters, crashes into truck that veered off course due to stones hurled by Palestinians in West Bank road; 3-year-old critically injured; three others moderately wounded

Itamar Fleishman Latest Update:  03.15.13, 00:50 / Israel News 
 
A woman and her three daughters were injured on Thursday in a car accident caused by stones hurled by Palestinians on Route 5 connecting Tel Aviv and Ariel.

One of the girls, three-year-old Adele, was critically wounded, while the mother, Adva Biton, 40, and her two other daughters, Avigail and Naama - ages four and five - sustained moderate injuries.

A truck that veered off course crashed into the woman's car which also swerved as a result of stone throwing. The truck driver was lightly injured. 
Medics evacuated the four-year-old girl to the Chaim Sheba Medical Center in Tel Hashomer and the additional victims were taken to the Rabin Medical Center in Petah Tikva.
The four were on their way back from a visit to their grandmother, Martine Elmakayes. Biton's fourth daughter, eight-year-old Moriya, did not join them as she was visiting a friend.

The Shai District Police confirmed that stones had been hurled at vehicles traveling on Route 5. 
Doctors at the Rabin Medical Center said that Adele suffered a serious head injury and was taken straight into surgery upon her arrival. "We are doing everything to save her," said Dr. Oleg Kaminsky.   

In the meanwhile, the IDF and Shin Ben are still searching for the Palestinians that hurled the stones. It is believed they used a point overlooking Route 5, near Ariel, to hurl the stones and then fled to one of the nearby villages.

Several hours later it was reported that a man and a 10-year-old boy were lightly injured by stones hurled at them on the same road. They were taken to the Hasharon Medical Center in Petah Tikva.
The truck driver told police at the scene that he pulled over after he heard a thud, thinking it was the result of a flat tire.
"At that point I noticed the stones on the road," the driver said, "and when I came back to the truck I realized that the car had crashed into the truck and was basically buried under the truck."

A few hours after the accident, residents of the area started to arrive at the scene of the crash to pray for the health of the toddler, reading from the Book of Psalms and protesting stones hurling.

Gershon Mesika, head of the Shomron Regional Council, visited the Biton family at the Rabin Medical Center in Petah Tikva. "The entire Israeli people is with you, praying for the recovery of the injured," Mesika said. "The unjust policy that insists on categorizing stone hurling as disorderly conduct rather than as terror is completely irresponsible."

According to Mesika, "In the past couple of months, incidents of stone hurling have become more prevalent, but with no response – due to restrictions that politicians have imposed on the IDF. It's about time we come to terms with the fact that a stone can kill. We must view stone hurling as terror."

Rabbi Aharon Cohen of the Yakir settlement, in which the family resides, said that the family was inflicted by "terror that has been growing more frequent over the last few weeks – terror that some have been taking lightly." 
In November, Ziona Kalla, wife of singer Itzik Kalla, sustained serious injuries as a result of stones hurled at her car near Beitar Illit in the West Bank.

Defense officials said that stone attacks have increased in the past few months and are now a form of popular terrorism. The IDF has placed traps in key points and stepped up its patrols in the West Bank to combat the phenomenon.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4356683,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4356683,00.html)
why is there a Jew only city in the West Bank ?
why do Jews have a monopoly on violence in the West Bank? 
How many Jews would live in the West Bank without their army? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 16, 2013, 09:40:13 AM
Ten years on I want answers for my daughter Rachel Corrie

By Craig Corrie, co-founder, Rachel Corrie Foundation for Peace and Justice


On March 16, 2003, my daughter Rachel Corrie was crushed to death under a bulldozer driven by an Israel Defense Forces soldier. The bulldozer was manufactured in the United States by Caterpillar, Inc. and paid for by U.S. foreign military financing aid. My tax dollars paid for the machine used to kill my daughter.

In a telephone conversation the next day, Israeli Prime Minister Sharon promised President Bush a "thorough, credible, and transparent" investigation into Rachel's killing with a report to the U.S. Government. In response, April 24, 2003, our family received a printed PowerPoint presentation circulating in Congress purporting to explain the death of our daughter. This report, created by officers in command of the IDF unit that killed Rachel, concluded, "Ms. Corrie was not run over by a bulldozer, but sustained injuries caused by earth and debris which fell on her during bulldozer operation."

Not only was this statement not supported by accounts from Rachel's friends and their photographs, it was subsequently contradicted by Captain R.S., the highest ranking IDF officer on the scene. In Haifa District Court in April 2011, he pointed to the blade marks on the ground in one of the photos, and swore he knew in the first minute that the bulldozer had run over Rachel.

On May 23, 2003, our family was informed by the U.S. Department of State that the Israelis had closed Rachel's case, that no charges would be brought, and that they declined to release the promised report to our government. Members of the State Department, U.S. embassy, and our family were subsequently permitted to read the report. It remains the U.S. position, restated as recently as August 2012 by U.S. Ambassador Daniel Shapiro, that the Israeli investigation did not meet the standard of "thorough, credible, and transparent."

Our family has always believed that our government, through diplomatic means, should resolve the matter and hold the Israeli government accountable for a U.S. citizen killed with a U.S.- funded weapon. Indeed, the U.S. has tried. As Ambassador Designate James B. Cunningham noted in his 2008 confirmation, in addition to President Bush "then-Secretary Powell, Ambassador Kurtzer, Deputy Chief of Mission LeBaron, Assistant Secretary William Burns, and Deputy Assistant Secretary David Satterfield, among others, raised this issue with their counterparts and other appropriate authorities in the Israeli Government."

But in the words of Michelle Bernier-Toth, U.S. Department of State's Managing Director of Overseas Citizens Services in 2008, "We have consistently requested that the government of Israel conduct a full and transparent investigation into Rachel's death. Our requests have gone unanswered or ignored."  This is the response from a government that last year received four billion dollars of aid from American citizens – aid U.S. law prohibits being used in human rights violations!

What then would I ask President Obama to do as he makes his way to Israel and Palestine this month? Assure Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Abbas alike that we will stand with them for the just aspirations of all their citizens, including the equal recognition to their right to be free of threats to their homes, families, farmland, and future. Explain that the U.S. will no longer support financially or diplomatically the apartheid system embodied in the occupation of Palestine and in the treatment of Palestinian citizens of Israel. Remind them that security cannot come at the expense of the other, but only with the participation of both. Rather than giving license to a government's most violent instincts by repeating endlessly that Israel has a right to defend itself – ignoring that Palestinians also have that right – call instead for the courage of each side to live by the ceasefires negotiated but left unsigned or ignored.

President Obama should refuse to continue U.S. military and diplomatic support until Israel gives truthful answers to our questions, not just for U.S. citizens like Rachel and Furkan Dogan, but for all the civilians killed or maimed using U.S.-funded weapons. Use this trip to a deeply troubled and divided place to remind the world that Americans believe all people "are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Then, make this first principle of America's existence the foundation of his foreign policy for the next four years.




Corrie is the father of human rights activist Rachel Corrie and cofounder of the Rachel Corrie Foundation for Peace and Justice.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/288443-ten-years-on-i-want-answers-for-my-daughter-rachel-corrie


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 16, 2013, 09:47:04 AM
Footage from Rachel's interview conducted by Middle East Broadcasting Company on March 14th, 2003, two days before she was murdered by the Israeli Defense Forces

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3JI-axaRF4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 16, 2013, 12:23:36 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Why doesn't Hamas allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Egypt allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Do you think this is funny?

That is as intelligent as: why doesn't someone stop me beating him?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 12:32:13 PM
I think it's hilarious that you try to deflect away from the fact that Egypt has closed it's border to Gaza and that Hamas closed the crossing into Israel after it seized control of it from PA. so yes, I do think its funny.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 16, 2013, 12:33:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 12:32:13 PM
I think it's hilarious that you try to deflect away from the fact that Egypt has closed it's border to Gaza and that Hamas closed the crossing into Israel after it seized control of it from PA. so yes, I do think its funny.

This is what you are saying:

Please stop me punching the quadriplegic. Look that fellow didn't stop me.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 01:10:04 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2013, 12:33:23 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 12:32:13 PM
I think it's hilarious that you try to deflect away from the fact that Egypt has closed it's border to Gaza and that Hamas closed the crossing into Israel after it seized control of it from PA. so yes, I do think its funny.

This is what you are saying:

Please stop me punching the quadriplegic. Look that fellow didn't stop me.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Zr1-kMq2iHM/Tyge9Jl2fKI/AAAAAAAABRU/RBqOm0R6_UM/s1600/5589_diagnosis_wanker.jpg)

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 16, 2013, 01:11:54 PM
I accept your concession.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on March 16, 2013, 01:50:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XfTJ3Njk5o

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 16, 2013, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 15, 2013, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 03:19:36 PM
The only people to "have tightened its grip by further restricting crossings and by reducing the flow of desperately needed goods into this territory" was Hamas. There were over 100 trucks at one crossing alone with food that was rapidly rotting. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
Why doesn't Israel allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Hamas allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Egypt allow the free flow of food into Gaza?
Why is there a humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Israel wants it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 16, 2013, 02:18:47 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 16, 2013, 09:40:13 AM
Ten years on I want answers for my daughter Rachel Corrie

By Craig Corrie, co-founder, Rachel Corrie Foundation for Peace and Justice


On March 16, 2003, my daughter Rachel Corrie was crushed to death under a bulldozer driven by an Israel Defense Forces soldier. The bulldozer was manufactured in the United States by Caterpillar, Inc. and paid for by U.S. foreign military financing aid. My tax dollars paid for the machine used to kill my daughter.

In a telephone conversation the next day, Israeli Prime Minister Sharon promised President Bush a "thorough, credible, and transparent" investigation into Rachel's killing with a report to the U.S. Government. In response, April 24, 2003, our family received a printed PowerPoint presentation circulating in Congress purporting to explain the death of our daughter. This report, created by officers in command of the IDF unit that killed Rachel, concluded, "Ms. Corrie was not run over by a bulldozer, but sustained injuries caused by earth and debris which fell on her during bulldozer operation."

Not only was this statement not supported by accounts from Rachel's friends and their photographs, it was subsequently contradicted by Captain R.S., the highest ranking IDF officer on the scene. In Haifa District Court in April 2011, he pointed to the blade marks on the ground in one of the photos, and swore he knew in the first minute that the bulldozer had run over Rachel.

On May 23, 2003, our family was informed by the U.S. Department of State that the Israelis had closed Rachel's case, that no charges would be brought, and that they declined to release the promised report to our government. Members of the State Department, U.S. embassy, and our family were subsequently permitted to read the report. It remains the U.S. position, restated as recently as August 2012 by U.S. Ambassador Daniel Shapiro, that the Israeli investigation did not meet the standard of "thorough, credible, and transparent."

Our family has always believed that our government, through diplomatic means, should resolve the matter and hold the Israeli government accountable for a U.S. citizen killed with a U.S.- funded weapon. Indeed, the U.S. has tried. As Ambassador Designate James B. Cunningham noted in his 2008 confirmation, in addition to President Bush "then-Secretary Powell, Ambassador Kurtzer, Deputy Chief of Mission LeBaron, Assistant Secretary William Burns, and Deputy Assistant Secretary David Satterfield, among others, raised this issue with their counterparts and other appropriate authorities in the Israeli Government."

But in the words of Michelle Bernier-Toth, U.S. Department of State's Managing Director of Overseas Citizens Services in 2008, "We have consistently requested that the government of Israel conduct a full and transparent investigation into Rachel's death. Our requests have gone unanswered or ignored."  This is the response from a government that last year received four billion dollars of aid from American citizens – aid U.S. law prohibits being used in human rights violations!

What then would I ask President Obama to do as he makes his way to Israel and Palestine this month? Assure Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Abbas alike that we will stand with them for the just aspirations of all their citizens, including the equal recognition to their right to be free of threats to their homes, families, farmland, and future. Explain that the U.S. will no longer support financially or diplomatically the apartheid system embodied in the occupation of Palestine and in the treatment of Palestinian citizens of Israel. Remind them that security cannot come at the expense of the other, but only with the participation of both. Rather than giving license to a government's most violent instincts by repeating endlessly that Israel has a right to defend itself – ignoring that Palestinians also have that right – call instead for the courage of each side to live by the ceasefires negotiated but left unsigned or ignored.

President Obama should refuse to continue U.S. military and diplomatic support until Israel gives truthful answers to our questions, not just for U.S. citizens like Rachel and Furkan Dogan, but for all the civilians killed or maimed using U.S.-funded weapons. Use this trip to a deeply troubled and divided place to remind the world that Americans believe all people "are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Then, make this first principle of America's existence the foundation of his foreign policy for the next four years.




Corrie is the father of human rights activist Rachel Corrie and cofounder of the Rachel Corrie Foundation for Peace and Justice.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/288443-ten-years-on-i-want-answers-for-my-daughter-rachel-corrie
It must be very hard to lose a child. And even harder to read the lies about how the child was killed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/i-think-about-her-all-the-time-i-worry-that-when-i-get-home-i-m-going-to-fall-apart-1.1327940
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 02:47:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 16, 2013, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 15, 2013, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 03:19:36 PM
The only people to "have tightened its grip by further restricting crossings and by reducing the flow of desperately needed goods into this territory" was Hamas. There were over 100 trucks at one crossing alone with food that was rapidly rotting. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
Why doesn't Israel allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Hamas allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Egypt allow the free flow of food into Gaza?
Why is there a humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Israel wants it.

Egypt perpetuates it. Why doesn't Egypt just open their border and end this so called suffering? Palestinians want to be seen as victims.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Denn Forever on March 16, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2013, 12:23:36 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Why doesn't Hamas allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Egypt allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Do you think this is funny?

That is as intelligent as: why doesn't someone stop me beating him?

Are the statements above true?  Source?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 16, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 16, 2013, 12:23:36 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Why doesn't Hamas allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Egypt allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Do you think this is funny?

That is as intelligent as: why doesn't someone stop me beating him?

Are the statements above true?  Source?

Both are true.

Quote
Gaza Supplies Locked Out with Hamas Border ClosureMore than 70 flatbed trucks of foodstuffs and other goods are sitting at the Kerem Shalom border crossing, locked out by Hamas.


AAFont Size
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 3/5/2013, 4:46 AM




Trucks bring food to Gaza from Israel

Courtesy of CoGAT


More than 70 flatbed trucks of foodstuffs and other goods are sitting at the Kerem Shalom border crossing with Gaza, locked out by Hamas.

The crossing was closed last week following a rocket attack aimed at the southern coastal city of Ashkelon by terrorists in the Hamas-ruled area, but was to re-open Monday.

However, the terrorist government has attempted to replace the current crossing operator – hired by the Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority government -- with a contractor of its own.

This has prompted the current contractor to close down the crossing altogether and simply go home.

The Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (CoGAT), Maj.-Gen. Eitan Dangot, spoke this morning with senior PA officials in Ramallah regarding the unfolding events, according to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Dangot emphasized that "Israel cannot allow the operation of the crossing under such circumstances given the security risks," according to the Foreign Ministry.

Hamas has been actively trying to push the Ramallah government out and take charge of the management of the Kerem Shalom crossing so the terror organization may collect revenue from goods that enter Gaza, ministry officials explained.

Kerem Shalom Crossing is the primary commercial goods crossing into Gaza and as such, serves a vital function for the region's civilian population.

Located on the southern border between Israel and Gaza, Kerem Shalom sees an average of 300 trucks transporting food and other essentials into the region every day.

The crossing has been the site of numerous terror attacks in the past, each of which has forced it to close temporarily. 

"Today's events, however, are the first time that Hamas has closed Kerem Shalom in this manner," the ministry said in its statement.

Quote
Hamas: Egypt destroying Gaza smuggling tunnels by flooding them

On its website, Hamas quotes both the owner of a tunnel and an Egyptian security official as saying that Egypt is reinforcing its troops on the border with the Gaza Strip, and that it has halted smuggling through most of the tunnels.

By Jack Khoury | Feb.11, 2013 | 1:10 AM | 20

Egyptian flooding washes away Gaza tunnel busi
By Jack Khoury | Feb.11,2013 | 1:10 AM | 1


The Egyptian army has been destroying smuggling tunnels between the Gaza Strip and Sinai, said Palestinians who build them. The Egyptians have been flooding them, they said.

On its website, Hamas quotes both the owner of a tunnel and an Egyptian security official as saying that Egypt is reinforcing its troops on the border with the Gaza Strip, and that it has halted smuggling through most of the tunnels.

The Egyptian army also has begun flooding the tunnels that were rebuilt after Israel destroyed them during Operation Pillar of Defense, the sources quoted by Hamas said.

Water is considered a particularly effective and relatively inexpensive way to shut down the tunnels.

Unlike using explosives, this method does not involve weapons or endanger surrounding areas.

Flooded tunnels collapse, as happened when tunnels flooded amid the stormy weather earlier last month.

Three men were killed while working in a tunnel when it flooded due to the weather.

According to information given to the Hamas website, Egypt's army destroyed tunnels leading to the Rafah neighborhoods of al-Barazil and al-Salam on the Palestinian side, reported Hamas on its site.

The Egyptian soldiers are not allowing farmers to approach the area, it added.

The Egyptian army has increased its deployment along its border with the Gaza Strip and has been targeting smugglers since August 5, 2012, when 16 Egyptian border police were killed in a terror attack on the border.

A Palestinian official told Haaretz that Egypt's destruction of the tunnels is in keeping with the agreement to maintain calm reached between Hamas and Israel after Operation Pillar of Defense.

The Egyptians has become a party to the agreement, not just intermediaries, the official said.


Although only Israel gets the blame for the blockade.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: tyrone exile on March 16, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Out of interest Ball DeBeaver, What would your dream settlement be to the current situation with Israel/Palestine?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 16, 2013, 05:08:43 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 02:47:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 16, 2013, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 15, 2013, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 15, 2013, 03:19:36 PM
The only people to "have tightened its grip by further restricting crossings and by reducing the flow of desperately needed goods into this territory" was Hamas. There were over 100 trucks at one crossing alone with food that was rapidly rotting. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
Why doesn't Israel allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Hamas allow the free flow of food into Gaza?

Why doesn't Egypt allow the free flow of food into Gaza?
Why is there a humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Israel wants it.

Egypt perpetuates it. Why doesn't Egypt just open their border and end this so called suffering? Palestinians want to be seen as victims.
Jews are the ones who run the humanitarian crisis. Israeli policy. Run out of Tel Aviv.
Modern day Judaism is the Gaza policy. Forget about the mitzvot.

It wouldn't make any difference if the border with Egypt were open. Israel destroyed the economy. Israel blew up the sewerage system.
Gazans have no money.

Gaza is Israel's creation.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 05:21:19 PM
Quote from: tyrone exile on March 16, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Out of interest Ball DeBeaver, What would your dream settlement be to the current situation with Israel/Palestine?
Dream settlement would be 2 states with borders along the line of the security fence, with all settlers repatriated and any refugees of both sides unable to go home financially compensated.

Anyone else want to comment on their ideal settlement?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 05:46:14 PM
QuoteJews are the ones who run the humanitarian crisis. Israeli policy. Run out of Tel Aviv.
Modern day Judaism is the Gaza policy. Forget about the mitzvot.
Thats it, get all the antisemitic bile out of ya. The only thing being run out of Tel Aviv is the bus company. Israel's capital is Jerusalem.

Quote
It wouldn't make any difference if the border with Egypt were open. Israel destroyed the economy. Israel blew up the sewerage system.
Gazans have no money.

Gaza is Israel's creation.
Egypt has a border with Gaza which is guarded by Egyptian soldiers. Egypt has closed it's borders with Gaza, and only allows through whatever takes it's fancy on the day.
NOT ONE ISRAELI SOLDIER PATROLS THE BORDER BETWEEN GAZA AND EGYPT.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on March 17, 2013, 12:39:08 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 05:46:14 PM
QuoteJews are the ones who run the humanitarian crisis. Israeli policy. Run out of Tel Aviv.
Modern day Judaism is the Gaza policy. Forget about the mitzvot.
Thats it, get all the antisemitic bile out of ya. The only thing being run out of Tel Aviv is the bus company. Israel's capital is Jerusalem.

Quote
It wouldn't make any difference if the border with Egypt were open. Israel destroyed the economy. Israel blew up the sewerage system.
Gazans have no money.

Gaza is Israel's creation.
Egypt has a border with Gaza which is guarded by Egyptian soldiers. Egypt has closed it's borders with Gaza, and only allows through whatever takes it's fancy on the day.
NOT ONE ISRAELI SOLDIER PATROLS THE BORDER BETWEEN GAZA AND EGYPT.

Some one stop me punching this quadriplegic!
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 17, 2013, 08:55:57 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 05:21:19 PM
Quote from: tyrone exile on March 16, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Out of interest Ball DeBeaver, What would your dream settlement be to the current situation with Israel/Palestine?
Dream settlement would be 2 states with borders along the line of the security fence, with all settlers repatriated and any refugees of both sides unable to go home financially compensated.

Anyone else want to comment on their ideal settlement?
4 june 1967 borders.
the wall is a land grab.

Anyway who is going to remove the Jewish settlers from Hebron?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXSFsJV084
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 17, 2013, 09:27:08 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 16, 2013, 05:46:14 PM
QuoteJews are the ones who run the humanitarian crisis. Israeli policy. Run out of Tel Aviv.
Modern day Judaism is the Gaza policy. Forget about the mitzvot.
The only thing being run out of Tel Aviv is the bus company. Israel's capital is Jerusalem.

Quote
It wouldn't make any difference if the border with Egypt were open. Israel destroyed the economy. Israel blew up the sewerage system.
Gazans have no money.

Gaza is Israel's creation.
Egypt has a border with Gaza which is guarded by Egyptian soldiers. Egypt has closed it's borders with Gaza, and only allows through whatever takes it's fancy on the day.
NOT ONE ISRAELI SOLDIER PATROLS THE BORDER BETWEEN GAZA AND EGYPT.

The Starvation policy is run out of IDF HQ in tel Aviv.
Have you ever been to Tel Aviv?

And Egypt has nothing to do with Gaza.
When the Soweto massacre happened in 1976 Mozambique closed its border with South Africa. Apartheid was thus Mozambique's responsibility, was it ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 17, 2013, 02:19:54 PM
QuoteThe Starvation policy is run out of IDF HQ in tel Aviv.
Have you ever been to Tel Aviv?

And Egypt has nothing to do with Gaza.
When the Soweto massacre happened in 1976 Mozambique closed its border with South Africa. Apartheid was thus Mozambique's responsibility, was it ?

Israeli government policy is carried out by IDF. The Israeli government is in the Israeli capital of Jerusalem. There is NO starvation policy except the one operated by Hamas. Have you been to Gaza? Have you seen the starving children in GHD's video of the Darfur like conditions?  ::)    Gaza is a war zone, with the problems many areas of it's kind have and will easily recover from with help. It won't recover if so-called "friendly" neighbours continue to enforce an even more draconian blockade than the one imposed by Israel. Israel is within it's rights to blockade Gaza, as it is in what can only be desribed as a de-facto state of war and as such has no obligation to aid Gaza. Even then, Israel still allows approx 250 trucks a day to pass into Gaza with aid. Egypt  is not at war with Gaza but still blockades it and goes to great lengths to prevent smuggling of goods into Gaza.  If Gaza is being starved, then why are these tunnels being used to smuggle consumer goods into Gaza, and not food? Don't get me wrong, the people of Gaza have every right to have the same consumer goods we enjoy, but you can't eat a flat screen TV.


Egypt has a lot to do with Gaza, so much so they occupied it for 20 years until Israel captured it.

Your feeble attempt to draw a comparison between S.A, Mozambique and Gaza is not worthy of you.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 17, 2013, 04:50:13 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 17, 2013, 02:19:54 PM
QuoteThe Starvation policy is run out of IDF HQ in tel Aviv.
Have you ever been to Tel Aviv?

And Egypt has nothing to do with Gaza.
When the Soweto massacre happened in 1976 Mozambique closed its border with South Africa. Apartheid was thus Mozambique's responsibility, was it ?

Israeli government policy is carried out by IDF. The Israeli government is in the Israeli capital of Jerusalem. There is NO starvation policy except the one operated by Hamas. Have you been to Gaza? Have you seen the starving children in GHD's video of the Darfur like conditions?  ::)    Gaza is a war zone, with the problems many areas of it's kind have and will easily recover from with help. It won't recover if so-called "friendly" neighbours continue to enforce an even more draconian blockade than the one imposed by Israel. Israel is within it's rights to blockade Gaza, as it is in what can only be desribed as a de-facto state of war and as such has no obligation to aid Gaza. Even then, Israel still allows approx 250 trucks a day to pass into Gaza with aid. Egypt  is not at war with Gaza but still blockades it and goes to great lengths to prevent smuggling of goods into Gaza.  If Gaza is being starved, then why are these tunnels being used to smuggle consumer goods into Gaza, and not food? Don't get me wrong, the people of Gaza have every right to have the same consumer goods we enjoy, but you can't eat a flat screen TV.


Egypt has a lot to do with Gaza, so much so they occupied it for 20 years until Israel captured it.

Your feeble attempt to draw a comparison between S.A, Mozambique and Gaza is not worthy of you.
There is NO starvation policy except the one operated by Hamas.

Do you want the links again? Dov Weisglass - put Gaza on a diet.
180 trucks per day to feed a population of 1.3 million. Most days not even 150 make it.
Do you know how many trucks of food per  day go into Belfast, population less than 40% of Gaza?

Why does Gaza need aid? Why is it a massive humanitarian crisis ?  Why can't it feed itself? 
Because Israel destroyed its industrial capacity.

Huge numbers of kids in Gaza have kidney stones because of the state of the water. Who destroyed the sewage system?

If Gaza is being starved, then why are these tunnels being used to smuggle consumer goods into Gaza

Non sequitur. say 10 telvisons get every day. What difference does that make to the calorie intake?

Gaza is where Israel parted ways with Judaism, habibi. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 20, 2013, 09:45:42 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-soldier-on-facebook-there-s-nothing-better-than-a-dead-arab.premium-1.510434

An Israeli soldier has written "there is nothing better than a dead Arab" on his Facebook page, the second IDF soldier to post strongly anti-Arab sentiment on social media in as many months.

"The Arabs are the cancer of this country and must be dealt with," wrote the soldier, a member of the Israel Defense Forces' Golani Brigade. "There is nothing better than a dead Arab."

The soldier also referred to a bus crash in Jordan last week in which Palestinians died. "I'm glad Arabs were killed," he wrote. "I''ll be happy if not one Arab remains here, and I'm sorry only 14 were killed."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 20, 2013, 12:37:33 PM
Israel detains more than 30 school children

Israeli occupation forces have entered three Palestinian primary schools in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron and detained more than 30 children, local sources have told MEMO. A bus was used to take the children away. Israeli sources claim that they are carrying out a campaign against "popular terrorists" who throw stones at occupation soldiers.

Hebron's Director of Education, Nisreeen Amr, said that the Israelis are still searching for specific pupils in Tariq bin-Ziad, Al-Khalil and Al-Ibrahimiyya Primary Schools. Witnesses said that any pupil crossing Tariq bin-Ziad Street in the city is being arrested.

A spokesman for the Israeli security forces, Avichay Adraee, wrote on his Facebook page on Tuesday evening that the phenomenon of throwing stones is widening in the West Bank. "This is a dangerous phenomenon which comes within the definition of popular terrorism," he wrote. "These incidents [throwing stones] take place almost every day and the media ignores them."

Meanwhile, a group of illegal Israeli settlers attacked Palestinian vehicles on the streets around the illegal Yitzhar settlement. Witnesses said that the windscreens and windows of 18 vehicles were smashed by the settlers.

A number of Palestinians were arrested by Israel's occupation forces on Wednesday morning in other West Bank cities.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5527-israel-detains-more-than-30-school-children
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 20, 2013, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 20, 2013, 12:37:33 PM
Israel detains more than 30 school children

Israeli occupation forces have entered three Palestinian primary schools in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron and detained more than 30 children, local sources have told MEMO. A bus was used to take the children away. Israeli sources claim that they are carrying out a campaign against "popular terrorists" who throw stones at occupation soldiers.

Hebron's Director of Education, Nisreeen Amr, said that the Israelis are still searching for specific pupils in Tariq bin-Ziad, Al-Khalil and Al-Ibrahimiyya Primary Schools. Witnesses said that any pupil crossing Tariq bin-Ziad Street in the city is being arrested.

A spokesman for the Israeli security forces, Avichay Adraee, wrote on his Facebook page on Tuesday evening that the phenomenon of throwing stones is widening in the West Bank. "This is a dangerous phenomenon which comes within the definition of popular terrorism," he wrote. "These incidents [throwing stones] take place almost every day and the media ignores them."

Meanwhile, a group of illegal Israeli settlers attacked Palestinian vehicles on the streets around the illegal Yitzhar settlement. Witnesses said that the windscreens and windows of 18 vehicles were smashed by the settlers.

A number of Palestinians were arrested by Israel's occupation forces on Wednesday morning in other West Bank cities.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5527-israel-detains-more-than-30-school-children
Settlers can kill with impunity but any Palestinian who dares life a finger to the whole system that is so anti Jewish to its core is a terrorist.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: theticklemister on March 20, 2013, 04:46:28 PM
News Sport Weather MenuSections

Obama on first Israel trip as president vows 'eternal'

President Obama: "The winds of change bring both promise and peril"

travel to the West Bank city of Ramallah to meet Palestinian President

Peace talks, Syria and Iran's nuclear plans are expected to dominate talks.

But US officials have tried to lower expectations of any significant headway on restarting the Israeli-Palestinians peace process.

Correspondents say Israelis are more preoccupied with instability in the wider Middle East region than with breathing new life into the peace process, which broke down in 2010 amid a dispute over continued Israeli

Settlement supporters are a big force in Israel's new coalition government.

Mr Obama was welcomed at Ben Gurion airport by Mr Netanyahu and

He was introduced to Israeli ministers and leaders of religious communities and later shown a missile battery that forms part of Israel's Iron Dome defence system against rocket attacks.

"Even as we are clear eyed about the difficulties, we will never lose sight of the vision of an Israel at peace with its neighbours," he said in brief

He added: "The United States stands with Israel because it is in our fundamental security interests to stand with Israel. Our alliance is eternal.

Mr Netanyahu thanked Mr Obama for "unequivocally affirming Israel's sovereign right to defend itself by itself against any threat".

Mr Obama later visited Mr Peres at his official residence.

In a joint news conference, the Israeli president said the two nations were united by a common vision - to confront dangers and bring peace.

He said he trusted the US in its policy of preventing Iran from developing

Mr Obama said he had reassured Mr Peres "that in this work Israel will

Mr Obama then went on to talks with Mr Netanyahu. On Thursday, he will travel to the West Bank to meet Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

At home, Mr Obama has been criticised for not having visited Israel in his first term as president, with some saying it shows he is not close enough

The state of the economy and social issues dominated Israel's last election, and the president has said he is not going to the region bearing

But with warnings that time is running out for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, some still think he will try to lay the ground for some greater effort to restart talks, BBC North America editor Mark Mardell

The president's relationship with Mr Netanyahu has been notoriously frosty and one recent opinion poll suggested a mere 10% of the Israeli public had

The main event of this trip is a speech to Israeli university students on Thursday. The president's main task is to build bridges and improve his image, which could give him more leverage over the new Israeli

Thousands of Israeli and Palestinian security officers have been assembled in Jerusalem and the Palestinians' de facto capital in the West

Both Israeli and Palestinian groups have staged protests in the run-up to

In the West Bank city of Hebron, protesters wearing masks of Mr Obama and civil rights leader Martin Luther King called for an end to "apartheid".

There were clashes between the pro-Palestinian protesters and some of the settlers living in the divided city, and a number of Palestinians were

In Gaza City, protesters burned US flags outside UN offices, the Associated

One protester said the visit would "only bring us shame and add more

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the visit was "ominous" and unwelcome, and that its consequences would be negative.

"It gives legitimacy to the occupation and confirms the political support of the United States [to Israel]," AP quoted him as saying.

Meanwhile, Israelis have been staging protests in Jerusalem demanding Mr Obama free Jonathan Pollard, imprisoned in  thee US in 1987. Palestinians
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: DrinkingHarp on March 20, 2013, 07:32:15 PM
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0318/The-latest-hot-language-among-Palestinians-in-Gaza-Hebrew?nav=644333-csm_article-spotlight



The latest hot language among Palestinians in Gaza? Hebrew


Students are flocking to a fledgling Hebrew program sponsored by Gaza's Hamas-run government, encouraged by their parents who learned Hebrew through years of working in Israel.

By Christa Case Bryant, Staff writer / March 18, 2013









Maysam El-Khateeb teaches Hebrew to ninth grade girls at the tidy Hassan Salma co-ed school in Gaza City, one of 20 schools participating in a pilot program launched this school year.

Christa Case Bryant / The Christian Science Monitor




Gaza City, Gaza


For the first time in nearly 20 years, government-run schools in Gaza are teaching Hebrew, and demand is outstripping the supply of qualified teachers. The driving force behind this pilot program? Hamas.


The Christian Science Monitor
Weekly Digital Edition

"[Israel is] more developed than us, so we can get benefits out of it – in terms of science, in terms of culture," says Mohamed Suleiman Abu Shqair, the deputy minister of education in the Hamas government. "This is also to prove to the rest of the world ... that we are open-minded, even to teach our enemy's language in our schools."

Many middle-aged Gazans know Hebrew well, since they spent years working in Israel before the border was tightened in 2003. They say it's only natural that their children should know Hebrew as well and even hold out hope that they could use it to do business with Israel in the future, hinting at a possible thawing of relations between Israel and Gaza. They also laud the insight of Israeli news analysts, and say that watching Israeli TV news – readily available in Gaza, along with cultural and educational programs – can help them better understand not only their neighbor, but also their own society and political climate.


The Hebrew language pilot program, launched in September 2012, is still small in scope. Today it reaches only 20 of 400 government schools in Gaza, with each school offering a single class of 30 to 40 9th-grade students. Mr. Abu Shqair says next year Hamas would like to expand to 10th grade as well, but faces a shortage of qualified Hebrew teachers.

Even the program's strongest proponents don't claim that it will improve ties between Israel and Hamas, which is designated by Israel and the West as a terrorist organization. In fact, some suggest that the intent is more to understand the enemy.

"We are not looking for developing things with the Israelis, we are learning Hebrew to protect ourselves and to defend our country from the Israeli occupation," says Maysam El-Khateeb, a Hebrew teacher at the Hassan Salma co-ed school in Gaza City. Citing a popular proverb, she adds, "As we say, if you know the language of the other nations, you will protect yourself from their hatred and evil work."

One of her students, 14-year-old Nadine, goes even further. When asked why it is important to know the language of one's enemy, she responds confidently, "To attack them, because we must know how they think, how they talk about us."

More opportunities over the border

Daniel Fares, a father of 15 who spent most of his life working in Israel, much of it at a Coca-Cola factory, is familiar with the proverb. But he also suggests Hebrew can help improve understanding between Jews and Arabs.

Sitting in his humble home in Gaza's Jabaliya refugee camp, he recalls one time when he saw a Jewish mother and daughter walking down the street in Israel, and the daughter dropped her chocolate on the ground. Because he speaks Hebrew, he understood what the mother said when the girl leaned over to pick it up: "Don't be like the Arabs."

So he took the opportunity to tell the mother she shouldn't teach her children that way.

His children haven't learned Hebrew, but he hopes the pilot program will expand to their schools.

"In the future they could be translators, analysts, businessmen," he says, speaking fondly of his Israeli boss at Coca-Cola.

The world as a classroom

Back at Hassan Salma school, Mrs. Khateeb opens her afternoon class by saying "Erev tov!" (Good evening!)

"Erev tov," the students respond.

"Who are you? What are you? What are you studying?" she asks, beginning a sing-song pattern of call and repeat that they are clearly familiar with. One by one, girls in white hijabs stand up to answer the queries.

"Where is the notebook? Where is the chair?" she quizzes them, and they answer in unison.

This is not the way their parents' generation learned Hebrew.

Saba, a taxi driver sitting on the sidewalk with his boss, says he picked up the language during the 12 years he worked in Israel, starting with only a three-month course and then learning from everyday conversations after that.

"To learn it with communication is better even than to learn it at schools," agrees his boss, Mohammed Johar, who regrets not having learned more Hebrew himself.

"It's good for us to know what Israel thinks, what they are saying in Hebrew," says Mr. Johar. "The Israeli analysts are really good and they know and are aware of their politics and our politics. So if we listen to their analysts and our analysts, we will get a better idea of what's going on."

A first step

Hebrew was taught in Gaza schools from 1967, when Israel captured the small coastal territory in the Six-Day War with its Arab neighbors, until 1994, when the Palestinian Authority was created under the auspices of the Oslo Accords. The PA became responsible for the curriculum in government-run schools and did not include Hebrew, although United Nations schools in Gaza are run separately and did.

The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are administered largely independent of each other. Hamas runs Gaza while the PA, dominated by Hamas's secular rival Fatah, runs the West Bank. While the PA is backed by the West and has ties with Israel, Hamas has refused to recognize Israel's right to exist and the two entities do not speak directly.


Abu Shqair at Gaza's Ministry of Education insists that the Hebrew pilot program is purely educational and cultural in scope. "We don't have strategic plans or political plans out of it," he says. "We don't have any other ideology in our mind."

But he is eager to expand the program if the government can find enough qualified teachers and hopes that Gaza may one day engage again with Israel.

"I don't want to guess or imagine," he says, "but if the two people do recognize each other, this will be a normal thing."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 21, 2013, 12:29:02 PM

Rocket Victim: We're 'Victims of Obama,' And Nobody Cares

Whatever the reason for Hamas' rocket attack on Israel Thursday, says the attack's victim, Israel needs to prevent any future rocket attacks


AAFont Size
By David Lev
First Publish: 3/21/2013, 10:55 AM


Hamas on Thursday denied that it or any other Gaza terror group had fired rockets at Israeli targets in the midst of U.S. President Barack H. Obama's visit to Israel. "Israel has fabricated these reports in order to mar the reputation of the resistance forces," a spokesperson for Hamas said.

A rocket fired at Israel from Gaza caused heavy damage to a house in Sderot Thursday morning. A second rocket hit an open area near the Gaza border, and two other rockets aimed at Israel fell on the Gaza side of the border fence. There were no injuries, but two residents of the house were treated for shock.


Israel, for its part, said that the attack would not go unanswered, and that Israel would "choose the time and place for its response." Israeli officials said that it was possible that Hamas was trying to elicit an Israeli response to the attack while Obama was in the region, creating a diplomatic crisis when the President visits Palestinian Authority-controlled areas Thursday and Friday. If that is indeed their intent, the officials said, then Israel could expect more rocket attacks during Obama's visit.


Israeli officials added that they were interested in seeing if PA chief Mahmoud Abbas condemned the attacks when he spoke with Obama Thursday afternoon, something he had not done at all during the period leading up to Operation Pillar of Defense, when Hamas and other Gaza terror groups fired thousands of rockets at Israel.


In an interview on Israel Radio, Yossi Haziza, whose house was damaged in Thursday's attack, said that while physical damage – to houses and people – could be repaired, the real damage by attacks like these was to the psyche of the victims. Haziza's wife and child were sleeping at the time of the attack, and the shock of the attack caused them a great deal of fear that he was unsure they would ever be able to ovecome.


"I don't know how we are going to deal with this," he said. "The terrorists fire whenever they want and however they want and we seem unable to stop them. Apparently we did not do a proper job in stopping them in Operation Pillar of Defense.


"It could be that Hamas is doing this in 'honor' of Obama, sending him a message before he goes to Ramallah that he had better not forget about them," Haziza continued. "But so what? Because they want to send a message to the president we have to suffer? Are our children supposed to be sitting ducks for diplomatic reasons? Now they have to grow up with these negative experiences. Who knows what the damage will be later on? We need to be properly defended, regardless of diplomatic issues."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166448 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166448)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2013, 12:39:15 PM
Whatever the reason for Hamas' rocket attack on Israel Thursday, says the attack's victim, Israel needs to prevent any future rocket attacks

http://cdnet.myxer.com/tn/c/566700/big/?t=20081219200946
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 21, 2013, 04:05:52 PM
Obama downplays settlements as main obstacle to peace
Published today (updated) 21/03/2013 16:40






US President Barack Obama and President Mahmoud Abbas shake hands
at a news conference in Ramallah, March 21. (Reuters/Larry Downing)

RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- US President Barack Obama on Thursday downplayed continued Israeli settlement building as an obstacle to the peace process, and he called on the Palestinians to resume talks.

In a joint news conference in Ramallah, Obama said both sides should overcome their respective concerns about one another's commitment to the peace process.

"That's not to say settlements aren't important, that's to say if we resolve the (main) problems, then settlements will be resolved," Obama said, referring to the Palestinians' refusal to negotiate while Israel continues to build on Palestinian land.

"If to begin the conversation we have to get everything right from the outset ... then we're never going to get to the broader issue, which is how do you structure a state of Palestine," Obama said.

President Mahmoud Abbas, speaking directly after Obama, responded defiantly that the Palestinian position on settlements had not changed.

"It isn't just our perception that settlements are illegal. It is a global perspective. Everybody views settlements not only as a hurdle, but more than a hurdle to a two-state solution," he said.

"We are asking for nothing outside the international legitimacy. It is the responsibility of the Israeli government to halt settlement activities so we can at least speak."

He added: "We hope that the Israeli government understands this. We hope they listen to the many opinions inside Israel itself speaking of the illegality of settlements."

Neither side directly referenced a report in The New York Times on Thursday suggesting Abbas would ask Obama for help securing an unannounced settlement freeze from Israel's prime minister.

But Abbas said that during his meeting with Obama, "We spoke about (settlements) with Mr President (Obama) and we clarified our point of view about how we can reach a solution."

He also said that "We never gave up our vision, whether now or previously."

But Abbas described the meeting with Obama as positive, saying he left the room with "renewed confidence that the United States ... will help remove obstacles to achieving a just peace.

In Obama's opening remarks in Ramallah, the president said that the United States was "deeply committed to the creation of an independent sovereign state of Palestine."

He praised Abbas' work along with Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to build the necessary institutions for a Palestinian state and acknowledged the peaceful, popular resistance against Israel's wall.

"I think of the villages that hold peaceful protests because they understand the importance of nonviolence," Obama said.

He also condemned Hamas' refusal to renounce violence and the firing of rockets from Gaza hours earlier, and said "some people" opposed an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal because "they benefit from the current conflict."
Obama was to remain in Ramallah for the afternoon to meet with Palestinian young people at a youth center in Al-Bireh, a Palestinian town near Ramallah.

He was scheduled to speak in Jerusalem Thursday evening and visit Bethlehem on Friday before ending his three-day visit to the region with a visit to the Jordanian capital and Petra.

Palestinian analysts had not predicted any progress from the visit.

Muhammad Jadallah, a Palestinian leader in Jerusalem, told Ma'an that "We are a nation that welcomes all visitors but it looks like the Palestinians are not satisfied with Mr Obama's visit."

"They don't respect him, and he is the worst US president. He used the (UN Security Council) veto to help the settlements and used it again against the establishment of a Palestinian state.

"For these reasons we can't welcome the president, and we can't consider him a peacemaker just because he got a Nobel prize for peace -- he didn't bring any peace during his presidency."

He added: "After every visit of a US president to our land, we watch peace slip further away."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577421 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577421)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2013, 05:23:56 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 21, 2013, 04:05:52 PM
Obama downplays settlements as main obstacle to peace
Published today (updated) 21/03/2013 16:40






US President Barack Obama and President Mahmoud Abbas shake hands
at a news conference in Ramallah, March 21. (Reuters/Larry Downing)

RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- US President Barack Obama on Thursday downplayed continued Israeli settlement building as an obstacle to the peace process, and he called on the Palestinians to resume talks.

In a joint news conference in Ramallah, Obama said both sides should overcome their respective concerns about one another's commitment to the peace process.

"That's not to say settlements aren't important, that's to say if we resolve the (main) problems, then settlements will be resolved," Obama said, referring to the Palestinians' refusal to negotiate while Israel continues to build on Palestinian land.

"If to begin the conversation we have to get everything right from the outset ... then we're never going to get to the broader issue, which is how do you structure a state of Palestine," Obama said.

President Mahmoud Abbas, speaking directly after Obama, responded defiantly that the Palestinian position on settlements had not changed.

"It isn't just our perception that settlements are illegal. It is a global perspective. Everybody views settlements not only as a hurdle, but more than a hurdle to a two-state solution," he said.

"We are asking for nothing outside the international legitimacy. It is the responsibility of the Israeli government to halt settlement activities so we can at least speak."

He added: "We hope that the Israeli government understands this. We hope they listen to the many opinions inside Israel itself speaking of the illegality of settlements."

Neither side directly referenced a report in The New York Times on Thursday suggesting Abbas would ask Obama for help securing an unannounced settlement freeze from Israel's prime minister.

But Abbas said that during his meeting with Obama, "We spoke about (settlements) with Mr President (Obama) and we clarified our point of view about how we can reach a solution."

He also said that "We never gave up our vision, whether now or previously."

But Abbas described the meeting with Obama as positive, saying he left the room with "renewed confidence that the United States ... will help remove obstacles to achieving a just peace.

In Obama's opening remarks in Ramallah, the president said that the United States was "deeply committed to the creation of an independent sovereign state of Palestine."

He praised Abbas' work along with Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to build the necessary institutions for a Palestinian state and acknowledged the peaceful, popular resistance against Israel's wall.

"I think of the villages that hold peaceful protests because they understand the importance of nonviolence," Obama said.

He also condemned Hamas' refusal to renounce violence and the firing of rockets from Gaza hours earlier, and said "some people" opposed an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal because "they benefit from the current conflict."
Obama was to remain in Ramallah for the afternoon to meet with Palestinian young people at a youth center in Al-Bireh, a Palestinian town near Ramallah.

He was scheduled to speak in Jerusalem Thursday evening and visit Bethlehem on Friday before ending his three-day visit to the region with a visit to the Jordanian capital and Petra.

Palestinian analysts had not predicted any progress from the visit.

Muhammad Jadallah, a Palestinian leader in Jerusalem, told Ma'an that "We are a nation that welcomes all visitors but it looks like the Palestinians are not satisfied with Mr Obama's visit."

"They don't respect him, and he is the worst US president. He used the (UN Security Council) veto to help the settlements and used it again against the establishment of a Palestinian state.

"For these reasons we can't welcome the president, and we can't consider him a peacemaker just because he got a Nobel prize for peace -- he didn't bring any peace during his presidency."

He added: "After every visit of a US president to our land, we watch peace slip further away."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577421 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577421)
Israel will just continue with the status quo until it falls apart.
Jewish land- try selling that to the people of the region in perpetuity. It's a crock of shit.

50% of Israeli Jews acknowledge that their country runs apartheid in the West Bank.


http://harpers.org/archive/2013/02/harpers-index-347/


Let's see how long they can pull that off for. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 21, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 21, 2013, 05:23:56 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 21, 2013, 04:05:52 PM
Obama downplays settlements as main obstacle to peace
Published today (updated) 21/03/2013 16:40






US President Barack Obama and President Mahmoud Abbas shake hands
at a news conference in Ramallah, March 21. (Reuters/Larry Downing)

RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- US President Barack Obama on Thursday downplayed continued Israeli settlement building as an obstacle to the peace process, and he called on the Palestinians to resume talks.

In a joint news conference in Ramallah, Obama said both sides should overcome their respective concerns about one another's commitment to the peace process.

"That's not to say settlements aren't important, that's to say if we resolve the (main) problems, then settlements will be resolved," Obama said, referring to the Palestinians' refusal to negotiate while Israel continues to build on Palestinian land.

"If to begin the conversation we have to get everything right from the outset ... then we're never going to get to the broader issue, which is how do you structure a state of Palestine," Obama said.

President Mahmoud Abbas, speaking directly after Obama, responded defiantly that the Palestinian position on settlements had not changed.

"It isn't just our perception that settlements are illegal. It is a global perspective. Everybody views settlements not only as a hurdle, but more than a hurdle to a two-state solution," he said.

"We are asking for nothing outside the international legitimacy. It is the responsibility of the Israeli government to halt settlement activities so we can at least speak."

He added: "We hope that the Israeli government understands this. We hope they listen to the many opinions inside Israel itself speaking of the illegality of settlements."

Neither side directly referenced a report in The New York Times on Thursday suggesting Abbas would ask Obama for help securing an unannounced settlement freeze from Israel's prime minister.

But Abbas said that during his meeting with Obama, "We spoke about (settlements) with Mr President (Obama) and we clarified our point of view about how we can reach a solution."

He also said that "We never gave up our vision, whether now or previously."

But Abbas described the meeting with Obama as positive, saying he left the room with "renewed confidence that the United States ... will help remove obstacles to achieving a just peace.

In Obama's opening remarks in Ramallah, the president said that the United States was "deeply committed to the creation of an independent sovereign state of Palestine."

He praised Abbas' work along with Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to build the necessary institutions for a Palestinian state and acknowledged the peaceful, popular resistance against Israel's wall.

"I think of the villages that hold peaceful protests because they understand the importance of nonviolence," Obama said.

He also condemned Hamas' refusal to renounce violence and the firing of rockets from Gaza hours earlier, and said "some people" opposed an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal because "they benefit from the current conflict."
Obama was to remain in Ramallah for the afternoon to meet with Palestinian young people at a youth center in Al-Bireh, a Palestinian town near Ramallah.

He was scheduled to speak in Jerusalem Thursday evening and visit Bethlehem on Friday before ending his three-day visit to the region with a visit to the Jordanian capital and Petra.

Palestinian analysts had not predicted any progress from the visit.

Muhammad Jadallah, a Palestinian leader in Jerusalem, told Ma'an that "We are a nation that welcomes all visitors but it looks like the Palestinians are not satisfied with Mr Obama's visit."

"They don't respect him, and he is the worst US president. He used the (UN Security Council) veto to help the settlements and used it again against the establishment of a Palestinian state.

"For these reasons we can't welcome the president, and we can't consider him a peacemaker just because he got a Nobel prize for peace -- he didn't bring any peace during his presidency."

He added: "After every visit of a US president to our land, we watch peace slip further away."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577421 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577421)
Israel will just continue with the status quo until it falls apart.
Jewish land- try selling that to the people of the region in perpetuity. It's a crock of shit.

50% of Israeli Jews acknowledge that their country runs apartheid in the West Bank.


http://harpers.org/archive/2013/02/harpers-index-347/


Let's see how long they can pull that off for.

;D Please stop it, I'm gonna wet myself.  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on March 21, 2013, 05:34:17 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 20, 2013, 12:37:33 PM
Israel detains more than 30 school children

Israeli occupation forces have entered three Palestinian primary schools in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron and detained more than 30 children, local sources have told MEMO. A bus was used to take the children away. Israeli sources claim that they are carrying out a campaign against "popular terrorists" who throw stones at occupation soldiers.

Hebron's Director of Education, Nisreeen Amr, said that the Israelis are still searching for specific pupils in Tariq bin-Ziad, Al-Khalil and Al-Ibrahimiyya Primary Schools. Witnesses said that any pupil crossing Tariq bin-Ziad Street in the city is being arrested.

A spokesman for the Israeli security forces, Avichay Adraee, wrote on his Facebook page on Tuesday evening that the phenomenon of throwing stones is widening in the West Bank. "This is a dangerous phenomenon which comes within the definition of popular terrorism," he wrote. "These incidents [throwing stones] take place almost every day and the media ignores them."

Meanwhile, a group of illegal Israeli settlers attacked Palestinian vehicles on the streets around the illegal Yitzhar settlement. Witnesses said that the windscreens and windows of 18 vehicles were smashed by the settlers.

A number of Palestinians were arrested by Israel's occupation forces on Wednesday morning in other West Bank cities.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5527-israel-detains-more-than-30-school-children


GHD, when Hamas commit an atrocity do you ever post about that or is it just one way that you write about on here, I am not trying to be funny here, I am serious!
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on March 21, 2013, 05:48:56 PM
He won't. In the extremely unlikely event he did, he wouldn't be allowed back in to Gaza with goodies for his mates in Hamas.

He also knows what happens to anyone that criticises Hamas in the media. Many journalists have made that mistake, but not all of them have lived to tell the tale.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 21, 2013, 06:22:05 PM
Quote from: stew on March 21, 2013, 05:34:17 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 20, 2013, 12:37:33 PM
Israel detains more than 30 school children

Israeli occupation forces have entered three Palestinian primary schools in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron and detained more than 30 children, local sources have told MEMO. A bus was used to take the children away. Israeli sources claim that they are carrying out a campaign against "popular terrorists" who throw stones at occupation soldiers.

Hebron's Director of Education, Nisreeen Amr, said that the Israelis are still searching for specific pupils in Tariq bin-Ziad, Al-Khalil and Al-Ibrahimiyya Primary Schools. Witnesses said that any pupil crossing Tariq bin-Ziad Street in the city is being arrested.

A spokesman for the Israeli security forces, Avichay Adraee, wrote on his Facebook page on Tuesday evening that the phenomenon of throwing stones is widening in the West Bank. "This is a dangerous phenomenon which comes within the definition of popular terrorism," he wrote. "These incidents [throwing stones] take place almost every day and the media ignores them."

Meanwhile, a group of illegal Israeli settlers attacked Palestinian vehicles on the streets around the illegal Yitzhar settlement. Witnesses said that the windscreens and windows of 18 vehicles were smashed by the settlers.

A number of Palestinians were arrested by Israel's occupation forces on Wednesday morning in other West Bank cities.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5527-israel-detains-more-than-30-school-children


GHD, when Hamas commit an atrocity do you ever post about that or is it just one way that you write about on here, I am not trying to be funny here, I am serious!

Have you any recent atrocity in mind that you want me to condemn?

Here is some video footage from the arrests at the school by the illegal occupation soldiers. Well worth watching Stew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PDaMlJVcMkA
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on March 21, 2013, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 21, 2013, 06:22:05 PM
Quote from: stew on March 21, 2013, 05:34:17 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 20, 2013, 12:37:33 PM
Israel detains more than 30 school children

Israeli occupation forces have entered three Palestinian primary schools in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron and detained more than 30 children, local sources have told MEMO. A bus was used to take the children away. Israeli sources claim that they are carrying out a campaign against "popular terrorists" who throw stones at occupation soldiers.

Hebron's Director of Education, Nisreeen Amr, said that the Israelis are still searching for specific pupils in Tariq bin-Ziad, Al-Khalil and Al-Ibrahimiyya Primary Schools. Witnesses said that any pupil crossing Tariq bin-Ziad Street in the city is being arrested.

A spokesman for the Israeli security forces, Avichay Adraee, wrote on his Facebook page on Tuesday evening that the phenomenon of throwing stones is widening in the West Bank. "This is a dangerous phenomenon which comes within the definition of popular terrorism," he wrote. "These incidents [throwing stones] take place almost every day and the media ignores them."

Meanwhile, a group of illegal Israeli settlers attacked Palestinian vehicles on the streets around the illegal Yitzhar settlement. Witnesses said that the windscreens and windows of 18 vehicles were smashed by the settlers.

A number of Palestinians were arrested by Israel's occupation forces on Wednesday morning in other West Bank cities.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5527-israel-detains-more-than-30-school-children


GHD, when Hamas commit an atrocity do you ever post about that or is it just one way that you write about on here, I am not trying to be funny here, I am serious!

Have you any recent atrocity in mind that you want me to condemn?

Here is some video footage from the arrests at the school by the illegal occupation soldiers. Well worth watching Stew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PDaMlJVcMkA

I will watch it GHD, I did not have an atrocity in mind, i just wanted an answer to the question I posed, and by the way, I have done a 180 on the Israeli's and am disgusted by the way they treat these people.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on March 21, 2013, 06:48:30 PM
Those fcukers learned nothing from the brits!
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 29, 2013, 08:51:27 PM
On Tuesday, 3 women and 2 men left the Libyan / Egyptian border to travel to Benghazi in order to get a flight home. They were part of an aid convoy that for nearly 2 weeks have been prevented from entering Egypt in order to travel to Gaza.

Close to the city, they were stopped and held by Government soldiers. Both men were assualted, and then the women were taken and raped. 2 of the girls are sisters, and one of the men was their father. Apparently he witnessed the rapes of his daughters. The other man is a very good friend, and I can't imagine what they all had to go through.

I still can't get my head around this. Benghazi, where the so called revolution started, has become a completely lawless society, and no one seems to be safe there. And these are the b**tards that the west supported and armed in the over throw of Gadaffi.

As you would expect, the girls are in a bad way, and have been emotionally and physically scarred for life. Add the fact that as muslim girls, they are no somehow "Damaged". So sad, and so cruel at the same time.

They are now home, and hopefully with time and help they can somehow recover. Lets hope the attackers go to jail for a very long time, although I somehow doubt it.

On another note, the 2 men from Derry who are part of this convoy are safe and well at the Egyptian border.



Libyans held for 'sex attack' on Britons in Benghazi

Two Libyans have been arrested over claims they sexually assaulted three British aid workers earlier this week.

The workers were apparently abducted at a checkpoint near the city of Benghazi and held for hours before being freed on Wednesday.

The women were in a convoy travelling overland to Gaza.

Defence official Abdul Salam Barghathi told the BBC the arrested men were soldiers. He described their behaviour as "an individual, isolated act".

Officials quoted earlier said four people had been arrested and two women had been assaulted.

But Mr Barghathi, who is based in Benghazi, said three women had been attacked.

He said two suspects had been arrested, but two were still on the run.

The BBC's Rana Jawad in Tripoli says Friday prayer sermons in some mosques began with condemnations of the assault.

The women were in a convoy driving from Morocco to Gaza.

They reached the Egyptian border, where officials refused permission for them to cross.

Five members of the convoy, including the women, took a taxi to Benghazi in the hope of catching a flight back to the UK.

They were stopped at a checkpoint, abducted and the women were allegedly sexually assaulted.

UK ambassador Michael Aron told the BBC that the incident was horrific and the Libyan authorities were investigating.

The group of aid workers were taken to the Turkish consulate in Benghazi after their release. British officials said they had now returned to the UK.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21976801
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on March 30, 2013, 12:06:20 PM
Irish cameraman hurt after being shot by Israeli soldier

An Irish cameraman was shot in the arm earlier today by the Israeli military while filming a protest in the Palestinian village of Nabi Saleh in the occupied West Bank.
Tommy Donnellan from Galway, who travelled to the West Bank last month, said he sustained a wound from a rubber-coated steel bullet which punctured his upper right arm.

Mr Donnellan said he had been filming the protest when he was shot in the arm by an Israeli soldier almost 40ft away. Nabi Saleh is a village with a population of 550, 20km northwest of Ramallah in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

"I think I was deliberately targeted as a journalist, as my video camera was plainly visible and there was no stone-throwing going on anywhere near me. After being hit I remonstrated with the soldier who fired on me. He then went back down on to his knee adopting a firing position; luckily I was able to run to the cover of a nearby wall."

Mr Donnellan said Palestinians were injured by these bullets "almost every day" and many had been killed by "so called non-lethal weapons".

A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said the Irish Embassy in Tel Aviv had been in contact with Mr Donnellan to see if he required any consular assistance.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-cameraman-hurt-after-being-shot-by-israeli-soldier-1.1343631
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on April 02, 2013, 02:50:45 PM
Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails stage hunger strike after inmate dies

A Palestinian prisoner has died of cancer after claims of medical negligence by the Israeli authorities, triggering unrest in the West Bank and among Palestinian inmates in Israeli jails. A three-day hunger strike by Palestinian security prisoners has been announced.

Maysara Abu Hamdiyeh, 64, died on Tuesday morning, three days after being transferred to Soroka hospital in the city of Be'er Sheva. Following news of his death, Israeli prison guards used teargas in response to protests by hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, who banged on cell doors and threw objects. Three prisoners and six guards needed medical treatment, according to the Israeli Prison Service (IPS).

There were clashes in the tense West Bank city of Hebron, where Abu Hamdiyeh lived. Demonstrators threw rocks and firebombs, according to reports.

Abu Hamdiyeh, who was sentenced to life in 2002 for attempted murder, was diagnosed with cancer of the oesophagus several months after complaining of ill health. By the time he was transferred to hospital, the cancer had spread from his throat to his spinal cord. According to his lawyer, he had lost significant weight and, until his admission to hospital, had been treated only with painkillers.

Issa Qaraqe, the Palestinian Authority prisoners minister, said Abu Hamdiyeh's cancer spread because he did not receive treatment earlier. "The prison administration knew that he was suffering from cancer and they didn't release him and medically neglected him," Qaraqe told the Palestinian news agency Ma'an.

Sivan Weizman, a spokeswoman for the IPS, said it had initiated moves to get Abu Hamdiyeh released on compassionate grounds after his cancer was diagnosed as terminal last week. "Usually it takes a few weeks to complete," she said.

An earlier statement from the IPS said: "The prisoner was diagnosed with oesophageal cancer in February and was under the medical supervision of experts at the hospital. About a week ago, after being diagnosed as terminal, the ISP appealed to the release committee to secure his early release, a process which had been started but not yet concluded."

The issue of prisoners' rights has widespread resonance in Palestinian society, where most families have experience of relatives in jail.

There are at least three prisoners on long-term hunger strike. Samer al-Issawi has been refusing food for long periods since August after he was arrested for allegedly transgressing the terms of his release from a 30-year sentence in October 2011 under the prisoner-swap deal that saw Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit freed after more than five years in captivity.

Issawi's weight has halved to 45kg and he is reported to be in a critical condition in Kaplan hospital in Tel Aviv.

According to Addameer, a Palestinian prisoners' rights group, the Israeli authorities are pressuring him to accept a deal under which he will be released but deported to Gaza, which it says is forcible transfer and illegal under international law.

"Samer's life is in danger and I am told that at any minute his heart could stop," his mother, Laila, 65, told the Guardian. "He has become a symbol of defiance."

Younis al-Hroub has been on total hunger strike since 19 February in protest over his "administrative detention" without charge or trial since July. He is in Soroka hospital, shackled to a bed, according to Addameer.

Another administrative detainee, Samer al-Barq, has been refusing food since the end of February.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/02/palestinian-prisoners-israel-hunger-strike
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 02, 2013, 05:14:11 PM
Maybe those fiendish Israelis gave him cancer.  ::)

Maybe some deaths in custody are more worthy of protest than others.

Detainee dies of heart attack at Gaza prison


Published yesterday (updated) 02/04/2013 17:35


GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Sami Hamdan Qishta, 50, died on Monday of a heart attack in a prison in southern Gaza, the Hamas government in control of the enclave announced.

Qishta was detained in a Rafah jail on charges related to financial crimes, the Gaza ministry of interior said in a statement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I demand an independent public enquiry to get to the bottom of allegations that this man was tortured by Israeli Hamas thugs.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 02, 2013, 06:00:08 PM
Settlers deserve it, don't they?


Conviction in Terror Murder of Father and Son

PA resident convicted of the murder of Asher Palmer and his infant son Yonatan.


AAFont Size
By Maayana Miskin
First Publish: 4/2/2013, 6:42 PM




Asher and Yonatan Palmer

(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/Resizer.ashx/news/250/168/369711.jpg)

Courtesy of Palmer family


Palestinian Authority resident terrorist Wael Salaman Mohammed el-Arjeh, of Hevron, has been convicted of two counts of murder in the deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer.

He will be sentenced in the upcoming days. Arjeh is facing life in prison.

Arjeh took part in an attack in which large stones were hurled at the Palmers' car. A stone hit Asher Palmer, who was driving, in the face.

The injured Palmer lost control of the car, possibly after losing consciousness, resulting in a crash in which both he and baby Yonatan were killed. Yonatan was two days shy of his first birthday.

Asher had been on his way to pick up his pregnant wife, Pua, from her job in Jerusalem. Pua gave birth to a baby girl five months after the murders, and named her daughter Orit, meaning "light."

The trial was attended by United States representatives due to the fact that Asher had U.S. citizenship.

Asher's father Michael expressed satisfaction with the verdict, telling Arutz Sheva, "Justice has come to light. This has been one of the hardest times of my life, as I fought to ensure my son and grandson's murderers would be punished."

Military court judges will give a verdict next month in the case of a second PA resident terrorist accused of taking part in the attack.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166701 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166701)

The "man" convicted of this attack was not a member of any organisation and is what can only be described as a civilian, so please spare me the outrage when any of these "civilians" are injured or killed by Israeli gunfire the next time they throw rocks at cars. They are trying to murder children and deserve all they get. RATS.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 02, 2013, 06:12:47 PM
5 Signs of Deteriorating Palestinian Press Freedom  
April 2, 2013 10:54by Pesach Benson

Western correspondents rely heavily on Palestinian reporters, photographers, cameramen and a range of other helpers to cover the West Bank and Gaza. So when the Palestinian Authority and Hamas crack down on media freedom, it's a direct assault on free expression and the public's right to know.

In recent days, media freedom has deteriorated in both the West Bank and Gaza. Palestinian journalists are complicit in some of these disturbing developments. Seen together, they point to a hostile attempt to control information.

1. Mahmoud Abbas  imposed dramatic restrictions on foreign reporters working in the West Bank. Khaled Abu Toameh explains:

The new decision is directed primarily against Israeli journalists who cover Palestinian affairs. Recently, many Palestinian journalists complained that it was unacceptable that their Israeli colleagues were being allowed to operate freely in Palestinian territories while they did not have permission to enter Israel. They also complained that the Israeli Government Press Office was refusing to issue them press credentials.

The Palestinian journalists demanded that the Palestinian Authority impose restrictions on the work of both Israeli and international reporters . . .

So while the Palestinian journalists are promoting a boycott of Israel, they are also demanding that the Israeli government issue them with press cards so they can enter Israel . . .

Particularly disturbing is that representatives of the international media have not protested against the Palestinian Authority's threat to restrict the journalists' work and even arrest them. One can only imagine the response of the international media had the Israeli authorities issued a similar ban or threat.

Indeed, the silence of the Foreign Press Association in Israel and the Committee to Protect Journalists is deafening.

2. The PA jailed a journalist for "insulting" Mahmoud Abbas on Facebook.

A PA court convicted Bethlehem-based journalist Mamdouh Hamamreh for a Facebook post comparing Abbas to a villain in a popular Syrian TV show. Hamamreh was sentenced to one year in prison. But the bad publicity spread, picked up by AP, and the NY Times, and the next day, Abbas pardoned  Hamamreh, saying he was "disturbed" to learn of the charges. But I'll give the last word to a former Palestinian mover and shaker who told AP:

"It's a good cop, bad cop routine. The bad cops are the security services, and the good cop is the benevolent president," said Diana Buttu, a former Palestinian Authority insider. They want to send a chilling message, she said, "and it works."


The image posted on Facebook for which Mamdouh Hamamreh was jailed. Mahmoud Abbas is compared to a villain in a popular Syrian TV drama who collaborated with French colonial forces. The caption says "Similar in every way."

Commenting on the blow-up, Elliott Abrams raises another reason Abbas backed down:

The PA is perennially short of funds and reliant on American and European aid. Turning the PA back into the kind of dictatorship we saw under Arafat will endanger that aid, as it should. Punishing people for the "crime" of "insulting the president" will appear to European and American legislators to be particularly repellent to their democratic traditions– as it is to international human rights laws.

3. Hamas is drafting media "regulations" of its own. Al-Monitor says a lot of Gaza journalists boycotted a Hamas-run forum to discuss the laws:

The 17-page, detailed draft included regulations for both print and broadcast media, and insisted on the right of freedom of expression in its first chapter but continued with many restrictions in later pages.

"Mass media are banned to publish or broadcast sacrilegious materials, secretive information about the security apparatus, inciting reports that aim to create state of chaos and all what might harm the state's icons," one of the most controversial articles read.

The new law also banned bringing in any publications that don't meet these restrictions.

4. The Palestinian Authority banned news coverage from Hebron when anti-US protests ahead of President Obama's visit were too embarrassing. Moreover, when President Obama visited the Muqata, a number of accredited journalists planning to cover the meeting received last-minute cancellations from the PA's Preventive Security Services:

After a quick look at the list of journalists blocked from access, however, one realizes they all at one time or another had written or said something critical of the Palestinian leadership . . .

What undermines the idea that the 18 banned journalists posed a security threat is that they have covered high-profile visits to Palestine for years, including by US officials.



5. A report on Palestinian press freedom in 2012 documented a lot of violations by Fatah and Hamas — 74 in all. According to the report published Palestinian Center for Development and Media Freedom (MADA):

Most notable types of violations were: prevention from travel, raiding of media institutions, preventing journalists from coverage, arrests, detentions, physical abuse, interrogations, trails, threats, and closing and blocking media sites.

Mr. Alruri pointed that detention is still the most prominent violations that have been monitored as it recorded during 2012 12 cases in comparison to 5 cases in 2011, in addition to the continued policy of calling journalists for investigation and interrogation with 13 violation reported, in addition to closing and blocking media sites, and prevention of travel.


http://honestreporting.com/5-ominous-signs-of-deteriorating-palestinian-press-freedom/ (http://honestreporting.com/5-ominous-signs-of-deteriorating-palestinian-press-freedom/)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on April 02, 2013, 06:51:46 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 02, 2013, 06:00:08 PM
Settlers deserve it, don't they?


Conviction in Terror Murder of Father and Son

PA resident convicted of the murder of Asher Palmer and his infant son Yonatan.


AAFont Size
By Maayana Miskin
First Publish: 4/2/2013, 6:42 PM




Asher and Yonatan Palmer

(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/Resizer.ashx/news/250/168/369711.jpg)

Courtesy of Palmer family


Palestinian Authority resident terrorist Wael Salaman Mohammed el-Arjeh, of Hevron, has been convicted of two counts of murder in the deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer.

He will be sentenced in the upcoming days. Arjeh is facing life in prison.

Arjeh took part in an attack in which large stones were hurled at the Palmers' car. A stone hit Asher Palmer, who was driving, in the face.

The injured Palmer lost control of the car, possibly after losing consciousness, resulting in a crash in which both he and baby Yonatan were killed. Yonatan was two days shy of his first birthday.

Asher had been on his way to pick up his pregnant wife, Pua, from her job in Jerusalem. Pua gave birth to a baby girl five months after the murders, and named her daughter Orit, meaning "light."

The trial was attended by United States representatives due to the fact that Asher had U.S. citizenship.

Asher's father Michael expressed satisfaction with the verdict, telling Arutz Sheva, "Justice has come to light. This has been one of the hardest times of my life, as I fought to ensure my son and grandson's murderers would be punished."

Military court judges will give a verdict next month in the case of a second PA resident terrorist accused of taking part in the attack.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166701 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166701)

The "man" convicted of this attack was not a member of any organisation and is what can only be described as a civilian, so please spare me the outrage when any of these "civilians" are injured or killed by Israeli gunfire the next time they throw rocks at cars. They are trying to murder children and deserve all they get. RATS.

awful terrible story.

but what it reminds me of is affective social distancing, that goes on in ireland too... you know, the kerb stones painted red, white and blue, murals on the houses, both groups creating separate identities for themselves that are tied up in how different and better they are than the other group. the other group are beasts, cowards and killers, but we're not that. it's never our fault. we're the righteous and we're only defending ourselves against those oppressors over there. for both sides, what sort of a homeland is it that's worth the level of human cost we've seen? i'm sorry, but i don't understand positioning myself morally in those terms. it's obscene and one of the most depressing things about human nature, that capacity to hate with an anger and hatred that comes from this type of perverted moral conviction that sees the others as not even human. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 07:27:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 02, 2013, 05:14:11 PM
Maybe those fiendish Israelis gave him cancer.  ::)

Maybe some deaths in custody are more worthy of protest than others.

Detainee dies of heart attack at Gaza prison


Published yesterday (updated) 02/04/2013 17:35


GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Sami Hamdan Qishta, 50, died on Monday of a heart attack in a prison in southern Gaza, the Hamas government in control of the enclave announced.

Qishta was detained in a Rafah jail on charges related to financial crimes, the Gaza ministry of interior said in a statement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I demand an independent public enquiry to get to the bottom of allegations that this man was tortured by Israeli Hamas thugs.
Tortured to death. It hardly matters which side did it. It's reprehensible.
But of course BDB will use it to justify whatever the latest Israeli atrocity is because the other side are not fully human.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on April 02, 2013, 07:38:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 07:27:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 02, 2013, 05:14:11 PM
Maybe those fiendish Israelis gave him cancer.  ::)

Maybe some deaths in custody are more worthy of protest than others.

Detainee dies of heart attack at Gaza prison


Published yesterday (updated) 02/04/2013 17:35


GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Sami Hamdan Qishta, 50, died on Monday of a heart attack in a prison in southern Gaza, the Hamas government in control of the enclave announced.

Qishta was detained in a Rafah jail on charges related to financial crimes, the Gaza ministry of interior said in a statement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I demand an independent public enquiry to get to the bottom of allegations that this man was tortured by Israeli Hamas thugs.
Tortured to death. It hardly matters which side did it. It's reprehensible.
But of course BDB will use it to justify whatever the latest Israeli atrocity is because the other side are not fully human.

and, equally, the affective social distancing that is created on the palestinian side is equally as socially harmful. in order to carry out an act like stone another person to death, the person doing that has to have the same conceptions about the others being lesser, and even inhuman as you say.

you want hatred, prejudice and murderous slaughter, get yourself some affective social distancing. that'll do it for you.

 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 07:54:41 PM
Quote from: cadence on April 02, 2013, 07:38:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 07:27:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 02, 2013, 05:14:11 PM
Maybe those fiendish Israelis gave him cancer.  ::)

Maybe some deaths in custody are more worthy of protest than others.

Detainee dies of heart attack at Gaza prison


Published yesterday (updated) 02/04/2013 17:35


GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Sami Hamdan Qishta, 50, died on Monday of a heart attack in a prison in southern Gaza, the Hamas government in control of the enclave announced.

Qishta was detained in a Rafah jail on charges related to financial crimes, the Gaza ministry of interior said in a statement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I demand an independent public enquiry to get to the bottom of allegations that this man was tortured by Israeli Hamas thugs.
Tortured to death. It hardly matters which side did it. It's reprehensible.
But of course BDB will use it to justify whatever the latest Israeli atrocity is because the other side are not fully human.

and, equally, the affective social distancing that is created on the palestinian side is equally as socially harmful. in order to carry out an act like stone another person to death, the person doing that has to have the same conceptions about the others being lesser, and even inhuman as you say.

you want hatred, prejudice and murderous slaughter, get yourself some affective social distancing. that'll do it for you.


Israel runs the system. Palestinians  have no choice but to live in it.
The power imbalance is grotesque.

I think the Israelis never dealt with the Holocaust.
We often hear about the 6 million but do we understand how barbaric it was in practice ?


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/dec/20/hitlers-logical-holocaust/?pagination=false&printpage=true

"But what of the quarter-million or so Polish Jews who somehow escaped the gassing, and who sought help among Poles in 1943, 1944, and 1945? Gross, along with Jan Grabowski and Barbara Engelking, records the undeniable fact that most of these people were murdered as well, perhaps half of them by Poles (following German policy and law) rather than by Germans.

Together, these Polish historians make two essential arguments that help us to understand the workings of deliberate Nazi persecution after the destruction of the Polish state. One is the continuity of personnel and of obedience. In general the Polish police continued to function, now taking orders from the Germans. Whereas in 1938 their job included preventing pogroms in independent Poland, in 1942 they were ordered to hunt down Jews. Second, local governments could be mobilized to capture Jews who had escaped the gas chambers. Poles in a given area were named as hostages, to be punished if a hunt for Jews failed. Local leaders were personally responsible for keeping their districts free of Jews, and could easily be denounced if they failed to do so. In the event of a successful hunt for Jews, local leaders were responsible for the distribution of Jewish property.4

"Peasants in the countryside, as Engelking and Grabowski demonstrate, were unconcerned with protecting the reputation of the Polish nation (with which they likely did not identify), but obsessed with their position relative to their neighbors.5 Peasants figure in all of these books as competitive, jealous, and concerned above all with property. Under German occupation, peasants regularly denounced one another to the Germans on all conceivable pretexts. This "epidemic of denunciations," as Grabowski puts it, made the prospect of rescuing a Jew from the German policy of destruction extremely difficult. Peasants noticed when a neighboring family was collecting more food, keeping different hours, or even bringing home a newspaper. All of these were signs that a Jew was being hidden, and led to denunciations which had overlapping motives: desire for the property of the Jews and those hiding them, and fear of collective German reprisals.
In this situation, as Engelking observes, it was highly irrational for Polish peasants to help Jews: "in the case of Jews seeking aid the costs of refusing them were zero, and the costs of helping them were enormous." As she and Grabowski both show, very often Poles acted as if they were rescuers, took the Jews' money, and then turned them in to the police. In Grabowski's study of dozens of cases of rescue and betrayal, he found that the Jews who were rescued rather than betrayed were precisely those who found their way to people who were not thinking of personal gain. This also holds of course for Poles such as Jan Karski and Witold Pilecki who voluntarily entered, respectively, the Warsaw ghetto and Auschwitz.6 As Grabowski is careful to stress, there were such people in the county he investigates, and throughout occupied Poland. Engelking recalls Wacław Szpura, who baked bread three times every night for the thirty-two Jews he rescued."

That sort of trauma does not leave a population in 3 generations
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on April 02, 2013, 08:58:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 07:54:41 PM
Quote from: cadence on April 02, 2013, 07:38:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 07:27:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 02, 2013, 05:14:11 PM
Maybe those fiendish Israelis gave him cancer.  ::)

Maybe some deaths in custody are more worthy of protest than others.

Detainee dies of heart attack at Gaza prison


Published yesterday (updated) 02/04/2013 17:35


GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Sami Hamdan Qishta, 50, died on Monday of a heart attack in a prison in southern Gaza, the Hamas government in control of the enclave announced.

Qishta was detained in a Rafah jail on charges related to financial crimes, the Gaza ministry of interior said in a statement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I demand an independent public enquiry to get to the bottom of allegations that this man was tortured by Israeli Hamas thugs.
Tortured to death. It hardly matters which side did it. It's reprehensible.
But of course BDB will use it to justify whatever the latest Israeli atrocity is because the other side are not fully human.

and, equally, the affective social distancing that is created on the palestinian side is equally as socially harmful. in order to carry out an act like stone another person to death, the person doing that has to have the same conceptions about the others being lesser, and even inhuman as you say.

you want hatred, prejudice and murderous slaughter, get yourself some affective social distancing. that'll do it for you.


Israel runs the system. Palestinians  have no choice but to live in it.
The power imbalance is grotesque.

I think the Israelis never dealt with the Holocaust.
We often hear about the 6 million but do we understand how barbaric it was in practice ?


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/dec/20/hitlers-logical-holocaust/?pagination=false&printpage=true

"But what of the quarter-million or so Polish Jews who somehow escaped the gassing, and who sought help among Poles in 1943, 1944, and 1945? Gross, along with Jan Grabowski and Barbara Engelking, records the undeniable fact that most of these people were murdered as well, perhaps half of them by Poles (following German policy and law) rather than by Germans.

Together, these Polish historians make two essential arguments that help us to understand the workings of deliberate Nazi persecution after the destruction of the Polish state. One is the continuity of personnel and of obedience. In general the Polish police continued to function, now taking orders from the Germans. Whereas in 1938 their job included preventing pogroms in independent Poland, in 1942 they were ordered to hunt down Jews. Second, local governments could be mobilized to capture Jews who had escaped the gas chambers. Poles in a given area were named as hostages, to be punished if a hunt for Jews failed. Local leaders were personally responsible for keeping their districts free of Jews, and could easily be denounced if they failed to do so. In the event of a successful hunt for Jews, local leaders were responsible for the distribution of Jewish property.4

"Peasants in the countryside, as Engelking and Grabowski demonstrate, were unconcerned with protecting the reputation of the Polish nation (with which they likely did not identify), but obsessed with their position relative to their neighbors.5 Peasants figure in all of these books as competitive, jealous, and concerned above all with property. Under German occupation, peasants regularly denounced one another to the Germans on all conceivable pretexts. This "epidemic of denunciations," as Grabowski puts it, made the prospect of rescuing a Jew from the German policy of destruction extremely difficult. Peasants noticed when a neighboring family was collecting more food, keeping different hours, or even bringing home a newspaper. All of these were signs that a Jew was being hidden, and led to denunciations which had overlapping motives: desire for the property of the Jews and those hiding them, and fear of collective German reprisals.
In this situation, as Engelking observes, it was highly irrational for Polish peasants to help Jews: "in the case of Jews seeking aid the costs of refusing them were zero, and the costs of helping them were enormous." As she and Grabowski both show, very often Poles acted as if they were rescuers, took the Jews' money, and then turned them in to the police. In Grabowski's study of dozens of cases of rescue and betrayal, he found that the Jews who were rescued rather than betrayed were precisely those who found their way to people who were not thinking of personal gain. This also holds of course for Poles such as Jan Karski and Witold Pilecki who voluntarily entered, respectively, the Warsaw ghetto and Auschwitz.6 As Grabowski is careful to stress, there were such people in the county he investigates, and throughout occupied Poland. Engelking recalls Wacław Szpura, who baked bread three times every night for the thirty-two Jews he rescued."

That sort of trauma does not leave a population in 3 generations

agreed on the jewish trauma, and i don't disagree that there's an imbalance of power too. but that power and trauma are not the only factors. to keep that type of oppression going, to hate the oppressed, and for the oppressed to hate the oppressor so much too, it also takes affective social distancing to create a particular type of collective consciousness. politicians, leaders of paramilitary groups, people not involved in either of those activities, we're all equally as vulnerable to the influence that asd can have too. it's a very powerful phenomena. 

without the affective social distancing, social groups can't hate each other enough to do the things we're talking about. the power itself doesn't make those things happen. it's why south africa didn't descend into a bloodbath when mandela was released and when the anc came to power. they didn't do the affective social distancing, in fact they went out of their way to humanise it all with the truth and reconciliation process.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
agreed on the jewish trauma, and i don't disagree that there's an imbalance of power too. but that power and trauma are not the only factors. to keep that type of oppression going, to hate the oppressed, and for the oppressed to hate the oppressor so much too, it also takes affective social distancing to create a particular type of collective consciousness. politicians, leaders of paramilitary groups, people not involved in either of those activities, we're all equally as vulnerable to the influence that asd can have too. it's a very powerful phenomena. 

without the affective social distancing, social groups can't hate each other enough to do the things we're talking about. the power itself doesn't make those things happen. it's why south africa didn't descend into a bloodbath when mandela was released and when the anc came to power. they didn't do the affective social distancing, in fact they went out of their way to humanise it all with the truth and reconciliation process


Israel is still at the apartheid stage. So kids are still being indoctrinated about how savage the Palestinians are. Maybe that is where SA was in 1975 or so. Israel does not allow its Jewish citizen to marry Palestinians. A lot of the asd is systematic and part of Israeli bureaucracy.   
They don't even call them "Palestinians" in Israel. They are just Arabs. 
Very few Jews live with Palestinians. you have 2 populations kept deliberately apart.
So of course there is asd.

But what are the Palestinians supposed to do now Israel has decided there won't be a Palestinian state ? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on April 02, 2013, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
agreed on the jewish trauma, and i don't disagree that there's an imbalance of power too. but that power and trauma are not the only factors. to keep that type of oppression going, to hate the oppressed, and for the oppressed to hate the oppressor so much too, it also takes affective social distancing to create a particular type of collective consciousness. politicians, leaders of paramilitary groups, people not involved in either of those activities, we're all equally as vulnerable to the influence that asd can have too. it's a very powerful phenomena. 

without the affective social distancing, social groups can't hate each other enough to do the things we're talking about. the power itself doesn't make those things happen. it's why south africa didn't descend into a bloodbath when mandela was released and when the anc came to power. they didn't do the affective social distancing, in fact they went out of their way to humanise it all with the truth and reconciliation process


Israel is still at the apartheid stage. So kids are still being indoctrinated about how savage the Palestinians are. Maybe that is where SA was in 1975 or so. Israel does not allow its Jewish citizen to marry Palestinians. A lot of the asd is systematic and part of Israeli bureaucracy.   
They don't even call them "Palestinians" in Israel. They are just Arabs. 
Very few Jews live with Palestinians. you have 2 populations kept deliberately apart.
So of course there is asd.

But what are the Palestinians supposed to do now Israel has decided there won't be a Palestinian state ?

you know as well as i do that asd happens in both social groups and it's how the mindset needed in order to stone someone to death is created, and it's how the mindset needed in order to consider people rats is created. it's not all doom and gloom though, there are large numbers of people over there who are appalled by what is happening and who want to improve this.

the difficult task for moderates on both sides is to try to pull those in their communites back from what they're doing and to build relationships with each other and to work towards creating as many positive relationships as they can. without this happening, any political solution tried will be viewed with suspicious, and there'll be antagonism, and the alternative all runs the risk of not having the longevity people desire. it's not an easy task by any means dealing with the pain and anger that both communities have done to each another, but unless the myths of otherness asd creates are overturned, it's going nowhere fast.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 10:24:04 PM
Quote from: cadence on April 02, 2013, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
agreed on the jewish trauma, and i don't disagree that there's an imbalance of power too. but that power and trauma are not the only factors. to keep that type of oppression going, to hate the oppressed, and for the oppressed to hate the oppressor so much too, it also takes affective social distancing to create a particular type of collective consciousness. politicians, leaders of paramilitary groups, people not involved in either of those activities, we're all equally as vulnerable to the influence that asd can have too. it's a very powerful phenomena. 

without the affective social distancing, social groups can't hate each other enough to do the things we're talking about. the power itself doesn't make those things happen. it's why south africa didn't descend into a bloodbath when mandela was released and when the anc came to power. they didn't do the affective social distancing, in fact they went out of their way to humanise it all with the truth and reconciliation process


Israel is still at the apartheid stage. So kids are still being indoctrinated about how savage the Palestinians are. Maybe that is where SA was in 1975 or so. Israel does not allow its Jewish citizen to marry Palestinians. A lot of the asd is systematic and part of Israeli bureaucracy.   
They don't even call them "Palestinians" in Israel. They are just Arabs. 
Very few Jews live with Palestinians. you have 2 populations kept deliberately apart.
So of course there is asd.

But what are the Palestinians supposed to do now Israel has decided there won't be a Palestinian state ?

you know as well as i do that asd happens in both social groups and it's how the mindset needed in order to stone someone to death is created, and it's how the mindset needed in order to consider people rats is created. it's not all doom and gloom though, there are large numbers of people over there who are appalled by what is happening and who want to improve this.

the difficult task for moderates on both sides is to try to pull those in their communites back from what they're doing and to build relationships with each other and to work towards creating as many positive relationships as they can. without this happening, any political solution tried will be viewed with suspicious, and there'll be antagonism, and the alternative all runs the risk of not having the longevity people desire. it's not an easy task by any means dealing with the pain and anger that both communities have done to each another, but unless the myths of otherness asd creates are overturned, it's going nowhere fast.
Most Palestinians are not involved in violence. They just try to manage difficult lives.
Israel is the problem. It takes a lot of indoctrination to turn a 4 year old into an occupation soldier 14 years later. I think Israel has to change.   Nobody asked Israel to occupy Gaza and the West Bank.

It's all bound up too with the mythology of Zionism- that the land is all Jewish land, that the Palestinians have no right to be there. And the economics of the space where Jews earn on average 20 times what Palestinians do. That is systematic.
But you won't get change unless Israeli Jews want to change.

Imagine the trauma the kids go through on both sides. It is so pointless.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on April 02, 2013, 11:09:23 PM
Quote from: cadence on April 02, 2013, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
agreed on the jewish trauma, and i don't disagree that there's an imbalance of power too. but that power and trauma are not the only factors. to keep that type of oppression going, to hate the oppressed, and for the oppressed to hate the oppressor so much too, it also takes affective social distancing to create a particular type of collective consciousness. politicians, leaders of paramilitary groups, people not involved in either of those activities, we're all equally as vulnerable to the influence that asd can have too. it's a very powerful phenomena. 

without the affective social distancing, social groups can't hate each other enough to do the things we're talking about. the power itself doesn't make those things happen. it's why south africa didn't descend into a bloodbath when mandela was released and when the anc came to power. they didn't do the affective social distancing, in fact they went out of their way to humanise it all with the truth and reconciliation process


Israel is still at the apartheid stage. So kids are still being indoctrinated about how savage the Palestinians are. Maybe that is where SA was in 1975 or so. Israel does not allow its Jewish citizen to marry Palestinians. A lot of the asd is systematic and part of Israeli bureaucracy.   
They don't even call them "Palestinians" in Israel. They are just Arabs. 
Very few Jews live with Palestinians. you have 2 populations kept deliberately apart.
So of course there is asd.

But what are the Palestinians supposed to do now Israel has decided there won't be a Palestinian state ?

you know as well as i do that asd happens in both social groups and it's how the mindset needed in order to stone someone to death is created, and it's how the mindset needed in order to consider people rats is created. it's not all doom and gloom though, there are large numbers of people over there who are appalled by what is happening and who want to improve this.

the difficult task for moderates on both sides is to try to pull those in their communites back from what they're doing and to build relationships with each other and to work towards creating as many positive relationships as they can. without this happening, any political solution tried will be viewed with suspicious, and there'll be antagonism, and the alternative all runs the risk of not having the longevity people desire. it's not an easy task by any means dealing with the pain and anger that both communities have done to each another, but unless the myths of otherness asd creates are overturned, it's going nowhere fast.

Are you aware it was ballbag above that called Palestinians "rats". A fine Nazi type term which brings to mind extermination of this sub human rat like people to cleanse the world of vermin. What sort of social conditioning made Ballbag hate Palestinians you might wonder, what in his past would make him hate so much people he doesn't know. I wonder did those that did this wrong to Ballbag hate him with the same fury as he hates now. Anyhow, this sad case will be used by evil men to justify more evil acts and evil words as Ballbag has just demonstrated.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on April 03, 2013, 12:04:49 AM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 10:24:04 PM
Quote from: cadence on April 02, 2013, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
agreed on the jewish trauma, and i don't disagree that there's an imbalance of power too. but that power and trauma are not the only factors. to keep that type of oppression going, to hate the oppressed, and for the oppressed to hate the oppressor so much too, it also takes affective social distancing to create a particular type of collective consciousness. politicians, leaders of paramilitary groups, people not involved in either of those activities, we're all equally as vulnerable to the influence that asd can have too. it's a very powerful phenomena. 

without the affective social distancing, social groups can't hate each other enough to do the things we're talking about. the power itself doesn't make those things happen. it's why south africa didn't descend into a bloodbath when mandela was released and when the anc came to power. they didn't do the affective social distancing, in fact they went out of their way to humanise it all with the truth and reconciliation process


Israel is still at the apartheid stage. So kids are still being indoctrinated about how savage the Palestinians are. Maybe that is where SA was in 1975 or so. Israel does not allow its Jewish citizen to marry Palestinians. A lot of the asd is systematic and part of Israeli bureaucracy.   
They don't even call them "Palestinians" in Israel. They are just Arabs. 
Very few Jews live with Palestinians. you have 2 populations kept deliberately apart.
So of course there is asd.

But what are the Palestinians supposed to do now Israel has decided there won't be a Palestinian state ?

you know as well as i do that asd happens in both social groups and it's how the mindset needed in order to stone someone to death is created, and it's how the mindset needed in order to consider people rats is created. it's not all doom and gloom though, there are large numbers of people over there who are appalled by what is happening and who want to improve this.

the difficult task for moderates on both sides is to try to pull those in their communites back from what they're doing and to build relationships with each other and to work towards creating as many positive relationships as they can. without this happening, any political solution tried will be viewed with suspicious, and there'll be antagonism, and the alternative all runs the risk of not having the longevity people desire. it's not an easy task by any means dealing with the pain and anger that both communities have done to each another, but unless the myths of otherness asd creates are overturned, it's going nowhere fast.
Most Palestinians are not involved in violence. They just try to manage difficult lives.
Israel is the problem. It takes a lot of indoctrination to turn a 4 year old into an occupation soldier 14 years later. I think Israel has to change.   Nobody asked Israel to occupy Gaza and the West Bank.

It's all bound up too with the mythology of Zionism- that the land is all Jewish land, that the Palestinians have no right to be there. And the economics of the space where Jews earn on average 20 times what Palestinians do. That is systematic.
But you won't get change unless Israeli Jews want to change.

Imagine the trauma the kids go through on both sides. It is so pointless.

yep, israel is a powerful, militarised country, much more powerful that than palestine. winning an argument about that on it's own just means that those immoderates in israel might respond, yeh so?! the palestinians stone our children to death so they deserve everything they get from us. we're still in the entrenched position. the moral high ground claimed by both sides doesn't change anything. nothing shifts.

of course it's about rights, equality and anti-oppression, but that type of social change takes social and cultural solutions as well as political ones. politics on their own can't fix what's happened. rarely does. purely from a sociological perspective, it's helpful for people to understand the social processes that play a big part in getting them into the mess they get into. ignoring the power issue for a moment is helpful, because once you know what the asd is, you can take measures to lessen the harm it has. raising people's awareness of asd processes has it's benefits. awareness plays an important part of the aul' interactive social distancing process and changes how some people think. important to get in there at the coal face. make an impact, change people's perceptions... if i don't have an alternative way of looking at the world other than the one that supports my social group above all others, it's less likely i can reject this perspective of the world that i've been taught.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 03, 2013, 12:11:56 AM
Itchy, if you would care to read the post again you will see that the RATS are the stone throwers, not the many pals who don't involve themselves in trying to murder children, but you only read what you want to read.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on April 03, 2013, 12:27:20 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 02, 2013, 11:09:23 PM
Quote from: cadence on April 02, 2013, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
agreed on the jewish trauma, and i don't disagree that there's an imbalance of power too. but that power and trauma are not the only factors. to keep that type of oppression going, to hate the oppressed, and for the oppressed to hate the oppressor so much too, it also takes affective social distancing to create a particular type of collective consciousness. politicians, leaders of paramilitary groups, people not involved in either of those activities, we're all equally as vulnerable to the influence that asd can have too. it's a very powerful phenomena. 

without the affective social distancing, social groups can't hate each other enough to do the things we're talking about. the power itself doesn't make those things happen. it's why south africa didn't descend into a bloodbath when mandela was released and when the anc came to power. they didn't do the affective social distancing, in fact they went out of their way to humanise it all with the truth and reconciliation process


Israel is still at the apartheid stage. So kids are still being indoctrinated about how savage the Palestinians are. Maybe that is where SA was in 1975 or so. Israel does not allow its Jewish citizen to marry Palestinians. A lot of the asd is systematic and part of Israeli bureaucracy.   
They don't even call them "Palestinians" in Israel. They are just Arabs. 
Very few Jews live with Palestinians. you have 2 populations kept deliberately apart.
So of course there is asd.

But what are the Palestinians supposed to do now Israel has decided there won't be a Palestinian state ?

you know as well as i do that asd happens in both social groups and it's how the mindset needed in order to stone someone to death is created, and it's how the mindset needed in order to consider people rats is created. it's not all doom and gloom though, there are large numbers of people over there who are appalled by what is happening and who want to improve this.

the difficult task for moderates on both sides is to try to pull those in their communites back from what they're doing and to build relationships with each other and to work towards creating as many positive relationships as they can. without this happening, any political solution tried will be viewed with suspicious, and there'll be antagonism, and the alternative all runs the risk of not having the longevity people desire. it's not an easy task by any means dealing with the pain and anger that both communities have done to each another, but unless the myths of otherness asd creates are overturned, it's going nowhere fast.

Are you aware it was ballbag above that called Palestinians "rats". A fine Nazi type term which brings to mind extermination of this sub human rat like people to cleanse the world of vermin. What sort of social conditioning made Ballbag hate Palestinians you might wonder, what in his past would make him hate so much people he doesn't know. I wonder did those that did this wrong to Ballbag hate him with the same fury as he hates now. Anyhow, this sad case will be used by evil men to justify more evil acts and evil words as Ballbag has just demonstrated.

yes i am aware he called palestinians rats. that's why i posted. i think the point of it all is that we're none of us immune from viewing and treating others appallingly. affective social distance, the process, it perpetuates the reasoning that justifies the oppressive and awful behaviour. but it's also the method too. red, white and blue kerbs, murals on the walls, these create the otherness and justify the social distance at the same time. it happens everywhere, not just in israel. sadly we don't always opt for the healthier social processes.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 03, 2013, 09:41:50 AM
Cadence

of course it's about rights, equality and anti-oppression, but that type of social change takes social and cultural solutions as well as political ones. politics on their own can't fix what's happened. rarely does. purely from a sociological perspective, it's helpful for people to understand the social processes that play a big part in getting them into the mess they get into. ignoring the power issue for a moment is helpful, because once you know what the asd is, you can take measures to lessen the harm it has. raising people's awareness of asd processes has it's benefits. awareness plays an important part of the aul' interactive social distancing process and changes how some people think. important to get in there at the coal face. make an impact, change people's perceptions... if i don't have an alternative way of looking at the world other than the one that supports my social group above all others, it's less likely i can reject this perspective of the world that i've been taught.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/things-to-do-in-ramallah-when-the-u-s-president-is-visiting.premium-1.511722#

"Between the houses I saw groups of armed men dressed in olive green uniforms. There were children around them. The children ran toward me and started showering me with questions. I barely got in a question of my own: "Who are those people?" Yahud, Jews, the children answered.
They carried on with their questions. What was my name? How was I doing? Where did I work? Where did I live and what kind of car did I drive? A soldier approached and advised me to move away because stones are being thrown. The children asked if I was one of them, like the soldiers. I said I was Jewish like they are, but I was not a soldier. Not all Jews are soldiers"


Whose responsibility is it to educate those kids that not all Jews are soldiers?   To make the space for them to see that? 
And how should they interpret the Jews who are soldiers?

And what role do you see the economics of the situation having? 


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on April 03, 2013, 11:03:37 AM
whose responsibility?  Anyone in the community can do this.

the economics/trade has to be freed up... won't happen without a new agreement though. and yes, the agreement will have to be politically created, somehow, but getting that agreement to last will take a social and cultural shifting of attitudes about the others. it'll be a very fleeting agreement yet again otherwise and won't be maintained longterm unless that work and investment in communities continues.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on April 03, 2013, 01:28:10 PM
In Palestine, Dignity and Violence

Tuesday, 02 April 2013 09:34
By Noam Chomsky,


The Swedish novelist Henning Mankell tells of an experience in Mozambique during the civil war horrors there 25 years ago, when he saw a young man walking toward him in ragged clothes.

"I noticed something that I will never forget for as long as I live," Mankell says. "I looked at his feet. He had no shoes. Instead he had painted shoes on his feet. He had used the colors in the ground and in the roots to replace his shoes. He had come up with a way to keep his dignity."

Such scenes will evoke poignant memories among those who have witnessed cruelty and degradation, which are everywhere. One striking case, though only one of a great many, is Gaza, which I was able to visit for the first time last October.

There violence is met by the steady resistance of the "samidin" – those who endure, to borrow Raja Shehadeh's evocative term in "The Third Way," his memoir on Palestinians under occupation, 30 years ago.

Greeting me on my return home were the reports of the Israeli assault on Gaza in November, supported by the United States and tolerated politely by Europe as usual.
Israel isn't Gaza's only adversary. Gaza's southern border remains largely under the control of Egypt's dreaded secret police, the Mukhabarat, which credible reports link closely to the CIA and the Israeli Mossad.

Just last month a young Gaza journalist sent me an article describing the Egyptian government's latest assault on the people of Gaza.

A network of tunnels into Egypt is a lifeline for Gazans imprisoned under harsh siege and constant attack. Now the Egyptian government has devised a new way to block the tunnels: flooding them with sewage.

Meanwhile the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem reports on a new device that the Israeli army is using to counter the weekly nonviolent protests against Israel's illegal Separation Wall – in reality an Annexation Wall.

The samidin have been ingenious in coping with tear gas so the army has escalated, spraying protesters and homes with jets of a liquid as noxious as raw sewage.

These attacks provide more evidence that great minds think alike, combining criminal repression with humiliation.

The tragedy of Gaza traces back to 1948, when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled in terror or were forcibly expelled to Gaza by conquering Israeli forces.

Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion held that "The Arabs of the Land of Israel have only one function left to them – to run away."

It is noteworthy that today the strongest support for Israel in the international arena comes from the United States, Canada and Australia, the so-called Anglosphere – settler-colonial societies based on extermination or expulsion of indigenous populations in favor of a higher race, and where such behavior is considered natural and praiseworthy.

For decades Gaza has been a showcase for violence of every kind. The record includes such carefully planned atrocities as Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009 – "infanticide," as it was called by Norwegian physicians Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse, who worked at Gaza's al-Shifa Hospital with their Palestinian and Norwegian colleagues through the criminal assault. The word is apt, considering the hundreds of children massacred.

Violence ranges through just about every kind of cruelty that humans have used their higher mental faculties to devise, up to the pain of exile.

The pain is particularly stark in Gaza, where older people can still look across the border toward the homes from which they were driven – or could if they were able to approach the border without being killed.

One form of punishment has been to close off more of the Gazan side of the border, turning it into a buffer zone, including half of Gaza's arable land, according to Harvard's Sara Roy, a leading scholar on Gaza.

While a showcase for the human capacity for violence, Gaza is also an inspiring exemplar of the demand for dignity.

Ghada Ageel, a young woman who escaped from Gaza to Canada, writes about her 87-year-old refugee grandmother, still trapped in the Gaza prison. Before her grandmother's expulsion from a now-destroyed village, "she owned a house, farms and land and she enjoyed honor, dignity and hope."

Amazingly, like Palestinians generally, the elderly woman hasn't given up hope.

"When I saw my grandmother in November 2012 she was unusually happy," Ageel writes. "Surprised by her high spirits, I asked for an explanation. She looked me in the eye and, to my surprise, said that she was no longer worried about" her native village and the life of dignity that she has lost, for her irrevocably.

The village, her grandmother told Ageel, "'is in your heart, and I also know that you are not alone in your journey. Don't be discouraged. We are getting there."'

The search for dignity is understood instinctively by those who hold the clubs, and who recognize that apart from violence, the best way to undermine dignity is by humiliation. That is second nature in prisons.

The normal practice in Israeli prisons is once again under scrutiny. In February, Arafat Jaradat, a 30-year-old gas-station attendant, died in Israeli custody. The circumstances might yet spark another uprising.

Jaradat was arrested in his home at midnight (an appropriate hour to intimidate his family), and charged with having thrown stones and a Molotov cocktail a few months earlier, during Israel's November attack on Gaza.
Jaradat, healthy when arrested, was last seen alive in court by his lawyer, who describes him as "doubled over, scared, confused and shrunken."

The court remanded him to another 12 days of detention. Jaradat was found dead in his cell.
Journalist Amira Hass writes that "The Palestinians do not need an Israeli investigation. For them, Jaradat's death is much bigger than the tragedy he and his family have suffered. From their experience, Jaradat's death is â(euro) [ proof that the Israeli system routinely uses torture. From their experience, the goal of torture is not only to convict someone, but mainly to deter and subjugate an entire people."

The means are humiliation, degradation and terror – familiar features of repression at home and abroad.

The need to humiliate those who raise their heads is an ineradicable element of the imperial mentality.

In the case of Israel-Palestine, there has long been a near-unanimous international consensus on a diplomatic settlement, blocked by the United States for 35 years, with tacit European acceptance.
Contempt for the worthless victims is no small part of the barrier to achieving a settlement with at least a modicum of justice and respect for human dignity and rights. It's not beyond imagination that the barrier can be overcome by dedicated work, as has been done elsewhere.

Unless the powerful are capable of learning to respect the dignity of the victims, impassable barriers will remain, and the world will be doomed to violence, cruelty and bitter suffering.

© 2013 Noam Chomsky



Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on April 04, 2013, 12:28:00 PM
Palestinian youths shot dead in West Bank

Two teenagers killed by Israeli forces as protests over death of prisoner in custody spark violent clashes in West Bank.

Israeli troops have shot dead two Palestinian youths in the occupied West Bank as confrontations entered a third day following the death of a prisoner in an Israeli jail.

The body of Naji Balbisi, 17, a cousin of 16-year-old Amer Nassar who was also shot dead in clash at a military roadblock at Tulkarem in the north of the Palestinian territory, was discovered early on Thursday morning, officials said.

The Israeli army said troops fired on Palestinians who threw fire bombs at a guard post in the area after dark on Wednesday, but did not confirm the teenager was killed by them.

The army said it was investigating the incident, which left at least one other Palestinian wounded.

Tensions have risen rapidly in the West Bank and Gaza Strip following the death from cancer on Tuesday of Maysara Abu Hamdeya, 64, who was serving a life sentence in an Israeli jail.

Palestinians accuse Israel of withholding care from the man and failing to release him after diagnosing that his illness was terminal. Israel said it followed normal procedures.

Abu Hamdeya was convicted for a planned attack on a Jerusalem cafe in 2002.

In the southern West Bank city of Hebron, where Abu Hamdeya is to be buried on Thursday, Israeli forces clashed with dozens of Palestinian protesters on Wednesday, firing tear gas and rubber bullets at men throwing stones and petrol bombs.

Al Jazeera's correspondent Nicole Johnston, reporting from Hebron on Thursday, said that the situation in the town remained very tense.

Rocket fire

On Wednesday, Israeli jets carried out their first air strike on the Gaza Strip since a truce ended several days of fighting in November.

"I assess that Hamas has no interest in seeing the situation deteriorate."

- Richard Serry, the UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process

The military said it was responding to rockets fired on Tuesday by a group inside the Gaza strip.

The group fired two more rockets on Wednesday and said it was responding to the death of Abu Hamdeya.

Israeli officials pressed Gaza's ruling Islamist movement, Hamas, to rein in rocket-launching fighters after the most serious outbreak of cross-border hostilities since the ceasefire that ended the eight-day siege in November.

Some 4,600 Palestinian prisoners declared a hunger strike for three days in protest at Abu Hamdeya's death.

Food trays were returned untouched on Wednesday, an Israeli prisons official said.

In towns of the occupied West Bank, some shops were shut in solidarity.

'Maintain the quiet'

"I assess that Hamas has no interest in seeing the situation deteriorate," he said. "Our goal is to maintain the quiet."

Commenting on the violence in Gaza, Richard Serry, the UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, said it was of "paramount importance to refrain from violence."

He said in a statement that renewed violations of the ceasefire threatened to unravel Egyptian-brokered understandings
that included an easing of Israel's blockade on the enclave.

Egypt mediated the November truce after fighting in which some 170 Palestinians and six Israelis were killed.

Israel had launched that Gaza offensive, as it did a bigger campaign in 2008-09, with the declared aim of ending rocket fire.

Hamas took control of Gaza Strip from western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement in 2007 after winning an election a year earlier.

The Palestinian Authority want to establish a state in the enclave along with the West Bank and East Jerusalem, territories Israel captured in the 1967 war.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/04/20134445916413847.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 04, 2013, 04:43:57 PM

Op-Ed: NGO Tells Visiting Canadian FM How to Investigate PA


Published: Thursday, April 04, 2013 8:12 AM

The Jerusalem-based Israel Resource News Agency, Center for Near East Policy Research, provides the visiting Canadian Foreign Minister with a ten-step process for a long-overdue, thorough inquiry into PA use of foreign aid funds.




David Bedein, Israel Resource News Agency
The writer is the director of the Israel Resource News Agency & The Center for Near East Policy Research Ltd. His website is www.IsraelBehindTheNews.com
► More from this writer




This week, Canadian Foreign Minister has announced that he will visit areas under the control of the Palestinian Authority to inquire as to how foreign aid funds are being spent, in order to determine whether Canada should indeed renew foreign aid to the PA.

While it would seem natural for the foreign minister of any respected democracy to ask for an accounting of how foreign funds are being spent by a nascent entity, Canada is the first government to officially engage in an accountability process with the fledgling Palestinian Authority.

How should Canada conduct an inquiry into the Palestinian Authority? Here is a suggested ten step process as to how the Canadian Foreign Minister, The Hon. John Baird, could conduct an inquiry into the accountability of funds administered by the Palestinian Authority

Step One: Enter a Palestinian Authority classroom. Examine the new PA curriculum whose focus revolves around preparation of a new generation to conquer all of Palestine. Most recently, the Center for Near East Policy Research dispatched a TV crew to follow the classrooms of Palestinian Authority schools that are located in UNRWA facilities and witnessed teachings which did not focus on peace or reconciliation.

Translations of the new Palestinian Authority school books yielded the conclusion that they focused on a curriculum of "suspended war"

Step Two: Peruse the news output of the PBC (Palestine Broadcasting Corporation) radio and TV. Follow the messages of Jihad conveyed by the PBC to the Palestinian Arab people, the PBC adulation of Palestinians who committed suicide attacks, and PBC news clips which laud attacks on Beer Sheva, Sderot, Ashkelon,and Ashdod, which PBC terms "illegal Jewish settlements", though these Israeli cities, which have been shelled by missiles, are located on lands lost to the Arabs in 1948 - not 1967.

Step Three: Spend time in an UNRWA facility, where thousands of descendants of Arab refugees languish under the premise and promise of the "Right of Return". Nearby Palestinian Authority urban areas flourish. Note how the new Palestinian city, Rawabi, built near teeming UNRWA refugee facilities, will not allow UNRWA camp residents to live in the new Palestinian city. Meanwhile, in August 2012, Hamas terror groups won their fourth consecutive election to take charge of the UNRWA trade union and the UNRWA teachers union in Gaza, Ask for a report on UNRWA-Hamas cooperation..

Step Four: Peruse The "Right of Return" computer program that operates throughout the Palestinian Authority, and which helps UNRWA residents to locate the villages of their grandparents from 1948, even though these towns no longer exist, to prepare them to realize their "right of return:.

Step Five: Visit Palestinian Authority-controlled mosques on Friday. Follow the incendiary message conveyed by the mosques that function under funding and control of the PA.

Step Six: Review all new official maps that are published by the Palestinian Authority, which show all of Palestine, that is, including the state of Israel, as the location of any future Palestinian state.

Step Seven: Visit the PA Security Force. Following the expectation that the PA Security Force would be engagedto crush the Hamas, review reports of Hamas-Palestinian Authority cooperation. While the PA security force has worked with Israel on matters of petty crime, the PA will not take on Hamas. Moreover, the PA has no laws against money-laundering for terror groups and PA statutes do not define any group as a terrorist organization.

General Yaakov Amidror, former head of the IDF's Research and Assessment Division and currently serving as Security Adviser to Prime Minister Netanyahu, observed that "there is a huge difference in the Palestinian view between law enforcement, which is seen as legitimate, and anti-terrorism, which is NOT seen as legitimate."

Step Eight:  Ask for an evaluation of the food distribution program in Gaza, which the Hamas regime in Gaza and UNRWA have been running. Funds are delivered in cash dollars at the Gaza crossing to UNRWA, once a month, in the amount of $13 million. How much of the funds are geared to the purchase of food? Does the Hamas regime siphon off some of the foreign aid cash for the purchase of munitions or for any other purpose? Why is there a demand for "cash delivery"? What follow up-reports have been submitted to the donor countries on funds delivered to the UNRWA food distribution program?

Step Nine:  Review the published political program of Palestinian Prime Minister Salman Fayad, who has earned a reputation as a "moderate" and note Fayad's endorsement of a Palestinian Jerusalem (no mention of having just East Jerusalem, the Palestinian "right of return" to villages from 1948 that no longer exist, and the demand to free all Palestinians in Israeli jails, ignoring the fact that this includes thousands of Palestinians who have been convicted of first degree murder in a court of law. For Fayad's paper "Ending the Occupation, Establishing the State:Program of the Thirteenth Government - August 2009", available on the net, click here.

Step Ten: Review recent speeches of Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas, where Abbas himself conveys consistent praise for Palestinian Arabs who have murdered civilians. Review the telecast New Year's speech of Abbas, where he concludes his litany of praise for killers with a salute to the legacy of Hitler's ally, Haj Amin Al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/13082 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/13082)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 04, 2013, 05:04:52 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 04, 2013, 04:43:57 PM

Op-Ed: NGO Tells Visiting Canadian FM How to Investigate PA


Published: Thursday, April 04, 2013 8:12 AM

The Jerusalem-based Israel Resource News Agency, Center for Near East Policy Research, provides the visiting Canadian Foreign Minister with a ten-step process for a long-overdue, thorough inquiry into PA use of foreign aid funds.




David Bedein, Israel Resource News Agency
The writer is the director of the Israel Resource News Agency & The Center for Near East Policy Research Ltd. His website is www.IsraelBehindTheNews.com
► More from this writer




This week, Canadian Foreign Minister has announced that he will visit areas under the control of the Palestinian Authority to inquire as to how foreign aid funds are being spent, in order to determine whether Canada should indeed renew foreign aid to the PA.

While it would seem natural for the foreign minister of any respected democracy to ask for an accounting of how foreign funds are being spent by a nascent entity, Canada is the first government to officially engage in an accountability process with the fledgling Palestinian Authority.

How should Canada conduct an inquiry into the Palestinian Authority? Here is a suggested ten step process as to how the Canadian Foreign Minister, The Hon. John Baird, could conduct an inquiry into the accountability of funds administered by the Palestinian Authority

Step One: Enter a Palestinian Authority classroom. Examine the new PA curriculum whose focus revolves around preparation of a new generation to conquer all of Palestine. Most recently, the Center for Near East Policy Research dispatched a TV crew to follow the classrooms of Palestinian Authority schools that are located in UNRWA facilities and witnessed teachings which did not focus on peace or reconciliation.

Translations of the new Palestinian Authority school books yielded the conclusion that they focused on a curriculum of "suspended war"

Step Two: Peruse the news output of the PBC (Palestine Broadcasting Corporation) radio and TV. Follow the messages of Jihad conveyed by the PBC to the Palestinian Arab people, the PBC adulation of Palestinians who committed suicide attacks, and PBC news clips which laud attacks on Beer Sheva, Sderot, Ashkelon,and Ashdod, which PBC terms "illegal Jewish settlements", though these Israeli cities, which have been shelled by missiles, are located on lands lost to the Arabs in 1948 - not 1967.

Step Three: Spend time in an UNRWA facility, where thousands of descendants of Arab refugees languish under the premise and promise of the "Right of Return". Nearby Palestinian Authority urban areas flourish. Note how the new Palestinian city, Rawabi, built near teeming UNRWA refugee facilities, will not allow UNRWA camp residents to live in the new Palestinian city. Meanwhile, in August 2012, Hamas terror groups won their fourth consecutive election to take charge of the UNRWA trade union and the UNRWA teachers union in Gaza, Ask for a report on UNRWA-Hamas cooperation..

Step Four: Peruse The "Right of Return" computer program that operates throughout the Palestinian Authority, and which helps UNRWA residents to locate the villages of their grandparents from 1948, even though these towns no longer exist, to prepare them to realize their "right of return:.

Step Five: Visit Palestinian Authority-controlled mosques on Friday. Follow the incendiary message conveyed by the mosques that function under funding and control of the PA.

Step Six: Review all new official maps that are published by the Palestinian Authority, which show all of Palestine, that is, including the state of Israel, as the location of any future Palestinian state.

Step Seven: Visit the PA Security Force. Following the expectation that the PA Security Force would be engagedto crush the Hamas, review reports of Hamas-Palestinian Authority cooperation. While the PA security force has worked with Israel on matters of petty crime, the PA will not take on Hamas. Moreover, the PA has no laws against money-laundering for terror groups and PA statutes do not define any group as a terrorist organization.

General Yaakov Amidror, former head of the IDF's Research and Assessment Division and currently serving as Security Adviser to Prime Minister Netanyahu, observed that "there is a huge difference in the Palestinian view between law enforcement, which is seen as legitimate, and anti-terrorism, which is NOT seen as legitimate."

Step Eight:  Ask for an evaluation of the food distribution program in Gaza, which the Hamas regime in Gaza and UNRWA have been running. Funds are delivered in cash dollars at the Gaza crossing to UNRWA, once a month, in the amount of $13 million. How much of the funds are geared to the purchase of food? Does the Hamas regime siphon off some of the foreign aid cash for the purchase of munitions or for any other purpose? Why is there a demand for "cash delivery"? What follow up-reports have been submitted to the donor countries on funds delivered to the UNRWA food distribution program?

Step Nine:  Review the published political program of Palestinian Prime Minister Salman Fayad, who has earned a reputation as a "moderate" and note Fayad's endorsement of a Palestinian Jerusalem (no mention of having just East Jerusalem, the Palestinian "right of return" to villages from 1948 that no longer exist, and the demand to free all Palestinians in Israeli jails, ignoring the fact that this includes thousands of Palestinians who have been convicted of first degree murder in a court of law. For Fayad's paper "Ending the Occupation, Establishing the State:Program of the Thirteenth Government - August 2009", available on the net, click here.

Step Ten: Review recent speeches of Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas, where Abbas himself conveys consistent praise for Palestinian Arabs who have murdered civilians. Review the telecast New Year's speech of Abbas, where he concludes his litany of praise for killers with a salute to the legacy of Hitler's ally, Haj Amin Al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/13082 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/13082)
That is really poor even by your standards

Step Eight:  Ask for an evaluation of the food distribution program in Gaza, which the Hamas regime in Gaza and UNRWA have been running. Funds are delivered in cash dollars at the Gaza crossing to UNRWA, once a month, in the amount of $13 million.
why does Gaya need food aid

Step Nine:  Review the published political program of Palestinian Prime Minister Salman Fayad, who has earned a reputation as a "moderate" and note Fayad's endorsement of a Palestinian Jerusalem (no mention of having just East Jerusalem, the Palestinian "right of return" to villages from 1948 that no longer exist, and the demand to free all Palestinians in Israeli jails, ignoring the fact that this includes thousands of Palestinians who have been convicted of first degree murder in a court of law. For Fayad's paper "Ending the Occupation, Establishing the State:Program of the Thirteenth Government - August 2009", available on the net, click here.

The right of return is enshrined in international law.
So what if the villages don't exist. Who destroyed them BTW?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 04, 2013, 08:03:10 PM
The right to return is enshrined in international law for only those that actually lived there , not their kids and grand kids. The only refugees to ever claim right to return for descendents are palestinians. Are they special among the millions of world wide refugees?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: DrinkingHarp on April 04, 2013, 09:32:50 PM
GHD or anyone who could answer some basic questions.

I understand the blockade via Israel, why are the Egyptians blocking supplies if they are fellow Muslims? And what about Jordan, are they against the Palestinians as well?

And if the above three countries are blocking supplies into Palestine how are rockets delivered and used to fire into Israel? It would seem they would be able to use the same pathway to get food, medicine and supplies.

These are legit questions I do not understand.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 04, 2013, 09:49:25 PM
Quote from: DrinkingHarp on April 04, 2013, 09:32:50 PM
GHD or anyone who could answer some basic questions.

I understand the blockade via Israel, why are the Egyptians blocking supplies if they are fellow Muslims? And what about Jordan, are they against the Palestinians as well?

And if the above three countries are blocking supplies into Palestine how are rockets delivered and used to fire into Israel? It would seem they would be able to use the same pathway to get food, medicine and supplies.

These are legit questions I do not understand.
Egypt is run by the Army there and they don't want any of the refugees in Gaza bringing Israel's Palestinianian problem into Egypt. It is ultra cynical.
Egypt's government isn't very interested in the Palestinians but the people are.

Egypt is the only country that has a free border with the occupied Palestinian territories ie one that is not controlled by Israel.
The Jordan valley portion of the West Bank is controlled by the Israeli army even though it is not in Israel /- Israel controls everything that goes in and out.

Gaza doesn't have money to buy food. 80% live on international food aid. It is like Ireland was in the 1840s. Most people have very little cash and they depend on the charity of others. All avoidable but that is the way Israel runs things at the moment.

Re food and medicine

The Mavi Marmara was a Turkish relief ship that went to deliver humanitarian relief to Gaza in 2010. 9 activists were murdered on board by the Israeli Army, most with shots to the back of the head.

Israel seized the ship and its contents

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7fIk7ygYb8

Israel promised to deliver all of the material on board.

"Two desperately needed X-ray machines which were carefully packaged and loaded in full working order in Turkey were never delivered to Gaza because they were reportedly no longer working.  3,500 tons of desperately needed cement was left on the MV Rachel Corrie for months so that it was unusable when it finally reached Gaza. But cruelest of all, was the trashing of thousands of individual gifts to sponsored orphans in Gaza. IHH's Orphan Care Unit had collected individual gifts from their sponsor families with letters of friendship from Turkish children to their brothers and sisters in Gaza.  At Gaza the Orphan Care Unit had intended to have a presentation when the gifts would be given to the orphans. Israeli soldiers tore open and vandalized every present. "

They really are tramps.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on April 06, 2013, 03:35:34 AM
Official statistics offer revealing glimpse of Palestinian life

A report from the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) has shown that around half of the Palestinian population is under 18 years old, equating to 2.04 million young people. The total population in the occupied Palestinian territories in 2012 was 4.29 million.

PCBS Director Ola Awad said that the results of the study were announced to mark Palestine's Day of the Child on 5 April. "The report," she added, "includes detailed data about Palestinian children and their lives." Palestinians under the age of 18, noted Ms Awad, will be the backbone of the population for several years to come, based on the present birth and mortality rates.

The infant mortality rate is 18.9 out of every 1,000 live births. The main cause for such death is pre-birth infection. Breastfeeding by Palestinian babies is very common, with 62.8 per cent dependent on their mothers' milk for an average of 13 months. However, 11 per cent of children under five years old also suffer from chronic malnutrition; the percentage is slightly higher in Gaza, at 11.5 per cent, than in the West Bank at 10.4 per cent. Statistics from the Ministry of Health show that 19.4 per cent of Palestinian children under five suffer from anaemia. The rate in Gaza is almost double that in the West Bank, at 25.6 per cent compared with 13.4 per cent. The lack of clean drinking water is one cause of such illnesses amongst children.

The section of the PCBS report covering education shows that 1,129,538 Palestinians in the occupied territories are pupils in school; just over half - 50.2 per cent - are girls. Just over 67 per cent of all schools have science laboratories, with a slightly higher percentage of government schools (71.1 per cent) than those run by UNRWA (59.2 per cent). Fifty-three per cent of private schools have dedicated science facilities. More than 75 per cent of all schools have libraries and around the same figure have computer laboratories.

Around 75 per cent of all students use computers, with 81.9 per cent doing so in the West Bank and 64.4 per cent in the Gaza Strip. There is no significant difference in computer use between males and females.

Four out of ten children have access to the internet; two out of ten have enough knowledge to use the internet but for various reasons, including poverty, they do not have internet access. At least four out of ten children have no knowledge at all about the internet.

The number of Palestinian children aged between 10 and 17 involved in the labour market is low, at just over 4 per cent doing paid or unpaid work. It is higher in the West Bank (5.8 per cent) than in the Gaza Strip (1.5 per cent).

The report also showed that Palestinian children need protection. Around 3 per cent of them were exposed to bodily harm from the Israeli occupation forces and Jewish settlers. Most of these are in the West Bank and occupied Jerusalem where the settlers live.

The average age of marriage among Palestinian youth is 20 for females and 24.6 for males, the report points out. However, their prospects are not good. About 20.7 per cent of Palestinian households are classed as "poor"; most of them have children. The official poverty rate in the Gaza Strip is 32.6 per cent with 14.7 per cent in the West Bank.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5670-official-statistics-offer-revealing-glimpse-of-palestinian-life
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on April 06, 2013, 03:44:08 AM
Quote from: DrinkingHarp on April 04, 2013, 09:32:50 PM
GHD or anyone who could answer some basic questions.

I understand the blockade via Israel, why are the Egyptians blocking supplies if they are fellow Muslims? And what about Jordan, are they against the Palestinians as well?

And if the above three countries are blocking supplies into Palestine how are rockets delivered and used to fire into Israel? It would seem they would be able to use the same pathway to get food, medicine and supplies.

These are legit questions I do not understand.

DH, to add to Seafoids answers, the Egyptian military is funded by Uncle Sam to the tune of $1 billion a year, second to Israel in terms of military aid. Since the fall of Mubarak and the election of Morsi, very little has changed in that the military would be loyal to their paymasters. The media is also still controlled by the old guard.

Jordan and Egypt are the only 2 countries in the Middle East that have peace agreements with Israel, and again, this is due to the massive hand outs both receive from the US taxpayer. Currently Jordan is the training ground for rebels by US troops who are directing the civil war currently going on in Syria.

Certainly Egypt and Jordan could be doing a lot more to help the Palestinians, however, the root cause of the problem is the Israeli occupation. Everything else comes second.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on April 06, 2013, 09:37:49 AM
You didn't answer the food/rocket part of the question.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 04:25:53 PM
PA pay jailed murderers over 4 times as much more than they pay policemen. No wonder they are queuing up to kill Israeli kids.



Financial Crisis? PA Continues to Pay Jailed Terrorists

The PA, despite complaining that it is suffering from a severe financial crisis, is continuing to pay to terrorists in Israeli prisons.


AAFont Size
By Elad Benari, Canada
First Publish: 4/5/2013, 9:09 PM




The Palestinian Authority, despite complaining constantly that it is suffering from a severe financial crisis, is continuing to provide monthly payments to terrorists serving time in Israeli prisons, the Makor Rishon newspaper reported Friday. This is not the first time that the enormous salaries the PA pays terrorists have been exposed.

According to Friday's report, which was based on data collected by the research department of the Israeli Foreign Ministry, at least 4% of the PA government's budget is allocated for terrorists' salaries.

Each month, the PA transfers about 17.5 million shekels to terrorists, the Foreign Ministry has found. While the PA has claimed to the international community that the funds are allocated for social assistance, the information collected in Israel shows otherwise.

According to the information published in Makor Rishon, the percentage of support for terrorists is determined by the number of years in prison each one has been sentenced to. This means that the more serious the crimes committed by the terrorist, the higher his salary.

According to the scale set by the PA, a terrorist who is serving more than 30 years in an Israeli prison earns 12 thousand shekels per month. Those terrorists who were sentenced to 25 to 30 years receive 10 thousand shekels each month. A terrorist who is serving five to ten years earns four thousand shekels.

The data collected has also found that the salaries of these thousands of terrorists is higher than the monthly salary of a PA Arab police officer, whose average salary is only about 2,700 shekels.
Furthermore, reported Makor Rishon, the Israeli Foreign Ministry has discovered that it is none other than PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, who often presents himself to the world as opposing terrorism, who ordered two years ago that the payment to terrorists be tripled.

According to the report, Norwegian Foreign Minister Epsen Barth Eide met with Fayyad on Thursday and expressed his protest over what was happening in the PA. Just several weeks ago, Eide met with Fayyad as international donors tried to collect the $1.2 billion needed to help fund the PA.

Eide has in the past hinted that Israel was to blame for the PA's financial crisis and has called on Israel to ease restrictions on the PA so as to allow it to continue to reform, and the donors to continue to donate.

European officials familiar with the matter were quoted by Makor Rishon as having said that the information collected is indeed disturbing and that at least some of the countries concerned, especially Norway and the UK, will look into it thoroughly.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166799 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166799)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 05:04:00 PM
Israel is a farce. How can any thinking person take it seriously ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 05:12:02 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 05:04:00 PM
Israel is a farce. How can any thinking person take it seriously ?
My da's bigger than your da.


Any chance of a reasoned argument?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 05:12:02 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 05:04:00 PM
Israel is a farce. How can any thinking person take it seriously ?
My da's bigger than your da.


Any chance of a reasoned argument?
What is the point of the mitzvot?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 07:08:02 PM
Google it. Come out and say what you want to say.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2013, 07:24:52 PM
BDB could you point to any poster here that you think you might have persuaded to think differently? Any poster at all?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 07:53:12 PM
I'm near sure Seafoid's on the turn.

I don't think for one second that anything I post will change anyone's opinion, just as nothing Seafoid or the Hamas poster boy post is likely to change my mind.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2013, 07:53:55 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 07:53:12 PM
I'm near sure Seafoid's on the turn.

I don't think for one second that anything I post will change anyone's opinion, just as nothing Seafoid or the Hamas poster boy post is likely to change my mind.

So why do you bother?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on April 06, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2013, 07:53:55 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 07:53:12 PM
I'm near sure Seafoid's on the turn.

I don't think for one second that anything I post will change anyone's opinion, just as nothing Seafoid or the Hamas poster boy post is likely to change my mind.

So why do you bother?

Because he is full of hate, he comes here to vent. He needs help. Seafood probably does too.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 08:28:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 07:08:02 PM
Google it. Come out and say what you want to say.
how does torturing palestinians by people who do not eat prawns bring the people closer to God .?
If the state of israel turned fascist would it be part of God's plan for the Jews ? Or is Zionism just a massive piss  take ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 08:38:15 PM
Was the Shoah also part of the covenant with God ? Some israelis say  so. FUBR .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 08:42:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2013, 07:53:55 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 07:53:12 PM
I'm near sure Seafoid's on the turn.

I don't think for one second that anything I post will change anyone's opinion, just as nothing Seafoid or the Hamas poster boy post is likely to change my mind.

So why do you bother?

Because he is full of hate, he comes here to vent. He needs help. Seafood probably does too.
I am reading a  book about the Famine  itchy. Do you know how many spailpins died in cavan?
It reminded me of Gaza.  Israel is just landlord thinking with flash pr.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 08:49:39 PM
Go on then, show us just how many gazans have died of hunger.  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 09:25:43 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 08:49:39 PM
Go on then, show us just how many gazans have died of hunger.  ;D
actually it was more about an economic system that treated decent people like vermin and gave them no option other than subsistence or charity . And this is done today in the name of a great religion. Which is why I think Israel is just  a piss take .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2013, 09:38:31 PM
Interesting book: http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/three-famines-20101019-16rll.html (http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/three-famines-20101019-16rll.html)

Tom Keneally's latest work is a detailed examination of how societies should not function. He explains why millions died in Ireland, Bengal and Ethiopia and how "mindsets of governments, racial preconceptions and administrative incompetence were more lethal than the initiating blights, the loss of potatoes or rice or livestock or of the grain named teff".


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 09:39:29 PM
You mean the system that pays convicted child murderers more than policemen
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on April 06, 2013, 11:23:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 08:42:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2013, 07:53:55 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 07:53:12 PM
I'm near sure Seafoid's on the turn.

I don't think for one second that anything I post will change anyone's opinion, just as nothing Seafoid or the Hamas poster boy post is likely to change my mind.

So why do you bother?

Because he is full of hate, he comes here to vent. He needs help. Seafood probably does too.
I am reading a  book about the Famine  itchy. Do you know how many spailpins died in cavan?
It reminded me of Gaza.  Israel is just landlord thinking with flash pr.

A lot of people died in Cavan. I know Israel is a force for evil, every bit as bad as their Nazi torturers. However, firing rockets at civilians and blowing people up is inexcusable no matter what the provocation.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on April 07, 2013, 04:25:28 AM
It has been great fun for hours now as hackers have taken down tens of thousands of Israeli web sites, Facebook and Twitter accounts, bank accounts, and all the Government web sites
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 06:49:04 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2013, 11:23:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 06, 2013, 08:42:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2013, 07:53:55 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 07:53:12 PM
I'm near sure Seafoid's on the turn.

I don't think for one second that anything I post will change anyone's opinion, just as nothing Seafoid or the Hamas poster boy post is likely to change my mind.

So why do you bother?

Because he is full of hate, he comes here to vent. He needs help. Seafood probably does too.
I am reading a  book about the Famine  itchy. Do you know how many spailpins died in cavan?
It reminded me of Gaza.  Israel is just landlord thinking with flash pr.

A lot of people died in Cavan. I know Israel is a force for evil, every bit as bad as their Nazi torturers. However, firing rockets at civilians and blowing people up is inexcusable no matter what the provocation.
In fairness Itchy the suicide bombings ended a while ago . Keeping all those people confined to Gaza is supposed to be the normal state of things .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
Suicide bombings stopped because of better security not because hamas developed morals. If they had morals they wouldn't be firing missiles into civilian areas, would they?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: cadence on April 07, 2013, 12:24:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
Suicide bombings stopped because of better security not because hamas developed morals. If they had morals they wouldn't be firing missiles into civilian areas, would they?

just war theory provides the ethical arguments for.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
Suicide bombings stopped because of better security not because hamas developed morals. If they had morals they wouldn't be firing missiles into civilian areas, would they?
suicide bombing stopped because of a number of factors . Mass peaceful demos are what israel  fears most since it has zero moral legitimacy . Israel needs the rockets .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 02:17:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 07, 2013, 04:25:28 AM
It has been great fun for hours now as hackers have taken down tens of thousands of Israeli web sites, Facebook and Twitter accounts, bank accounts, and all the Government web sites

Once again GHD gloats as innocent Israelis suffer. Just as long as his terrorist mates keep getting their handouts in cash, he doesn't give a monkey's.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 02:19:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 02:17:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 07, 2013, 04:25:28 AM
It has been great fun for hours now as hackers have taken down tens of thousands of Israeli web sites, Facebook and Twitter accounts, bank accounts, and all the Government web sites

Once again GHD gloats as innocent Israelis suffer. Just as long as his terrorist mates keep getting their handouts in cash, he doesn't give a monkey's.
any idf soldier deserves zero atm access
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 02:27:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
Suicide bombings stopped because of better security not because hamas developed morals. If they had morals they wouldn't be firing missiles into civilian areas, would they?
suicide bombing stopped because of a number of factors . Mass peaceful demos are what israel  fears most since it has zero moral legitimacy . Israel needs the rockets .
Then they should stop firing the f**kin rockets shouldn't they.

Yeah right. Israelis are terrified that a "mass peaceful demo" might land on a nursery school or an apartment block.

Hamas et al are still actively recruiting suicide bombers. They are the ones with zero moral legitimacy.

The security wall is there to stop these murderous animals from killing Israelis, and has been very effective. Build that wall, and build it high. If the palestinian terrorists weren't killing Israelis, then the wall wouldn't be there.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 02:29:11 PM
Land grab. Will end in disaster . Israel is just one big joke.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 02:31:35 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 02:19:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 02:17:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 07, 2013, 04:25:28 AM
It has been great fun for hours now as hackers have taken down tens of thousands of Israeli web sites, Facebook and Twitter accounts, bank accounts, and all the Government web sites

Once again GHD gloats as innocent Israelis suffer. Just as long as his terrorist mates keep getting their handouts in cash, he doesn't give a monkey's.
any idf soldier deserves zero atm access

Those hackers are great. They can actually narrow their activities down to just IDF. Good to know that when they hack into banks that the single mothers, pensioners and ordinary civilians aren't affected.

For someone that is so concerned about humanitarianism, you have a warped sense of morality.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 02:34:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 02:29:11 PM
Land grab. Will end in disaster . Israel is just one big joke.



Ah yes. Cliche after cliche. Nothing substantial to add, just the usual bullshit rhetoric.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on April 07, 2013, 02:48:41 PM
Israeli deputy PM's Facebook, Twitter accounts hacked, filled with pro-Palestine messages

The Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and YouTube accounts of Israeli Deputy Premier Silvan Shalom have been hacked and filled with pro-Palestine status updates. ZCompanyHackingCrew claimed responsibility for this latest act of cyber war against Israel.

The group also claims to have hacked Shalom's email and extracted personal mail, contacts and documents. The hackers announced plans to release the documents shortly.

In Shalom's hijacked Twitter feed, the hacker group posted calls for protest against "unjust war and occupation," and asked, "Who can bare to see the horror, the deaths of children and innocent people trying to protect their occupied land?"

The full-scale cyber attack on the top Israeli official comes just days after prominent hacker group Anonymous leaked the personal information of 5,000 Israeli officials.

Anonymous also hacked over 700 Israeli websites, including the Bank of Jerusalem, the Israeli Defense Ministry, the IDF blog, the president's official website and many others, with the majority of the pages still down.

The Israeli finance minister acknowledged the wave of attacks, saying the government is now waging a war on a "second front."

Over the past few days, Israel has "deflected 44 million cyber-attacks on government websites," Israeli Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz told AP.

http://rt.com/news/anonymous-hack-israel-vice-prime-minister-200/
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 02:52:21 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 02:31:35 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 02:19:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 02:17:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 07, 2013, 04:25:28 AM
It has been great fun for hours now as hackers have taken down tens of thousands of Israeli web sites, Facebook and Twitter accounts, bank accounts, and all the Government web sites

Once again GHD gloats as innocent Israelis suffer. Just as long as his terrorist mates keep getting their handouts in cash, he doesn't give a monkey's.
any idf soldier deserves zero atm access

Those hackers are great. They can actually narrow their activities down to just IDF. Good to know that when they hack into banks that the single mothers, pensioners and ordinary civilians aren't affected.

For someone that is so concerned about humanitarianism, you have a warped sense of morality.
The idf doesn't give a flying f**k about jewish single mothers. One in 4 israeli jewish kids lives below poverty line. The settlers are l'oreal people- because they deserve it. Israel is a big sick joke.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2013, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 09:39:29 PM
You mean the system that pays convicted child murderers more than policemen

There are other child killers, who have killed a lot more, and who are paid a hell of a lot more. But you are completely blind to the disproportionate death toll between the two.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 09:39:29 PM
You mean the system that pays convicted child murderers more than policemen

There are other child killers, who have killed a lot more, and who are paid a hell of a lot more. But you are completely blind to the disproportionate death toll between the two.

You are blind to who the targets are between the two. I have yet to hear about Israel paying convicted murderers any wage.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2013, 03:55:03 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 09:39:29 PM
You mean the system that pays convicted child murderers more than policemen

There are other child killers, who have killed a lot more, and who are paid a hell of a lot more. But you are completely blind to the disproportionate death toll between the two.

You are blind to who the targets are between the two. I have yet to hear about Israel paying convicted murderers any wage.

No I am not. I am well aware that the Palestinians have caused innocent casualties in Israel and these death are to be condemned. But Israel also pays killers of children. Only in this war one side suffers far more than the other.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:14:36 PM
The glaringly obvious difference is that Israel does not go out of it's way to kill civilians. Yes they have killed civilians, and that is a tragedy, but civilians are not the target. When Israel finds that soldiers have deliberately targeted or killed civilians, then those soldiers are brought to justice. They don't get any wage, never mind one that's four times that of a policeman.




Palestinians deliberately target Israeli civilians. No if's but's and's or maybe's. That's murder, every single time, not just the odd mistake. Then they get rewarded for it. Sickos.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:36:34 PM
GHD's heroes strike massive blow against Israeli war machine.................


Hackers Target Website for Children with Cancer
Hackers' group 'Anonymous' prides itself on repeatedly bringing down Larger than Life's website.


AAFont Size
By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 4/6/2013, 8:34 PM




Cancer-stricken child

(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/Resizer.ashx/news/250/168/325691.jpg)


The hackers' group Anonymous said Saturday that its planned attack on Israel has begun and will intensify Sunday. One of its prime targets is a website for an NGO that assists children with cancer.

The group announced that 19,000 Israeli Facebook accounts have already been hacked. In addition it said, personal details of students from Haifa University have been compromised, as have hundreds of passwords to Israeli email accounts.

Several dozen sites belonging to Israeli NGOs have been damaged, the web vandals claimed, including that of Larger than Life, and NGO for children with cancer.

"The website of Larger than Life has been under attack from pro-Palestinian hackers for a week," Larger than Life wrote on its Facebook page Thursday, "and every day they take down our site and plant different content – flags, a skull, symbols and all sorts of hate-related things."

"It is too bad that this is happening, of all places, to a website for an organization whose purpose is one of love, and assistance to every cancer stricken child under treatment in Israel, without differentiating on the basis of religion, race or nationality."
As of 8:20 p.m. Saturday, Israel time, the site appeared to be up.

Anonymous also claimed to have damaged the Israeli Securities Authority's website.

The hackers say they will attack websites belonging to the government, banks, large educational establishments and more.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166808 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166808)

At least GHD is consistant with his support for the people harming Israeli children. Congratulations.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2013, 04:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:14:36 PM
The glaringly obvious difference is that Israel does not go out of it's way to kill civilians. Yes they have killed civilians, and that is a tragedy, but civilians are not the target. When Israel finds that soldiers have deliberately targeted or killed civilians, then those soldiers are brought to justice. They don't get any wage, never mind one that's four times that of a policeman.




Palestinians deliberately target Israeli civilians. No if's but's and's or maybe's. That's murder, every single time, not just the odd mistake. Then they get rewarded for it. Sickos.

Read your post again. The disproportionate amount of dead civilian Palestinians is either down to Israel not going out of their way to kill them, or rogue soldiers, who are brought to justice. This makes it ok.

However the disproportionately small number of casualties on the other side is 'no if's (sic) but's (sic) and's (sic) or maybe's (sic)' is 'Palestinians deliberately targeting Israeli civilians'.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:45:41 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 04:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:14:36 PM
The glaringly obvious difference is that Israel does not go out of it's way to kill civilians. Yes they have killed civilians, and that is a tragedy, but civilians are not the target. When Israel finds that soldiers have deliberately targeted or killed civilians, then those soldiers are brought to justice. They don't get any wage, never mind one that's four times that of a policeman.




Palestinians deliberately target Israeli civilians. No if's but's and's or maybe's. That's murder, every single time, not just the odd mistake. Then they get rewarded for it. Sickos.

Read your post again. The disproportionate amount of dead civilian Palestinians is either down to Israel not going out of their way to kill them, or rogue soldiers, who are brought to justice. This makes it ok.

However the disproportionately small number of casualties on the other side is 'no if's (sic) but's (sic) and's (sic) or maybe's (sic)' is 'Palestinians deliberately targeting Israeli civilians'.

There is a hell of a difference between deliberately killing someone who has done you no harm, and killing someone by mistake while trying to target someone that had attacked you. No matter what the numbers are.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2013, 05:10:20 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:45:41 PM
There is a hell of a difference between deliberately killing someone who has done you no harm, and killing someone by mistake while trying to target someone that had attacked you. No matter what the numbers are.

If you blow up a building, you are deliberately killing EVERYONE in it. This applies not matter where you are from or how twisted your ideology.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:45:41 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 04:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:14:36 PM
The glaringly obvious difference is that Israel does not go out of it's way to kill civilians. Yes they have killed civilians, and that is a tragedy, but civilians are not the target. When Israel finds that soldiers have deliberately targeted or killed civilians, then those soldiers are brought to justice. They don't get any wage, never mind one that's four times that of a policeman.




Palestinians deliberately target Israeli civilians. No if's but's and's or maybe's. That's murder, every single time, not just the odd mistake. Then they get rewarded for it. Sickos.

Read your post again. The disproportionate amount of dead civilian Palestinians is either down to Israel not going out of their way to kill them, or rogue soldiers, who are brought to justice. This makes it ok.

However the disproportionately small number of casualties on the other side is 'no if's (sic) but's (sic) and's (sic) or maybe's (sic)' is 'Palestinians deliberately targeting Israeli civilians'.

There is a hell of a difference between deliberately killing someone who has done you no harm, and killing someone by mistake while trying to target someone that had attacked you. No matter what the numbers are.
That argument is bollocks. Shoot to kill does what it says on the tin. IDF soldiers are taught that Palestinians are vermin and act accordingly. IDF discipline is a joke. Some Jew says Israel does not target civlilians.  The number of kids shot in the head says otherwise. Zionism is a deluded ideology with no respect for human rights.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on April 07, 2013, 06:02:37 PM
Teachers Union of Ireland calls for Academic Boycott of Israel in unanimous vote; first academic union in Europe to do so


At its Annual Congress on Thursday 4th April 2013, the Teachers' Union of Ireland (TUI) became the first academic union in Europe to endorse the Palestinian call for an academic boycott of Israel. The motion, which refers to Israel as an "apartheid state", calls for "all members to cease all cultural and academic collaboration with Israel, including the exchange of scientists, students and academic personalities, as well as all cooperation in research programmes" was passed by a unanimous vote during today's morning session.

The motion further calls on the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to "step up its campaign for boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against the apartheid state of Israel until it lifts its illegal siege of Gaza and its illegal occupation of the West Bank, and agrees to abide by International law and all UN Resolutions against it", and on the TUI to conduct an awareness campaign amongst members on the need for BDS. The motion was a composite motion proposed by the TUI Executive Committee and TUI Dublin Colleges Branch. It was presented by Jim Roche, a lecturer in the DIT School of Architecture and member of the TUI Dublin Colleges Union branch, and seconded by Gerry Quinn, Vice President of the TUI.

Speaking after the successful passage of the motion, Jim Roche said: "I am very pleased that this motion was passed with such support by TUI members, especially coming the day after Israeli occupation forces shot and killed two Palestinian teenagers in the West Bank yesterday. BDS is a noble non-violent method of resisting Israeli militarism, occupation and apartheid, and there is no question that Israel is implementing apartheid policies against the Palestinians. Indeed, many veterans of the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa have said that it's worse than what was experienced there."

Mr. Roche pointed to the desperate situation of Palestinian education under occupation saying that: "Palestinians are struggling for the right to education under extremely difficult conditions. They are eager for it, as shown by the large numbers of students in third level education inside and outside the occupied Palestinian territories. Education has always been a target of the Israeli occupation, seeing forced closures of universities, disruption under checkpoint, closure and curfew regimes, and arrests, beatings and killing of both students and teachers. Sometimes, such as during the 2008-09 attack on Gaza, educational institutions have been militarily attacked. In fact I have just returned from a solidarity visit to Gaza where I had the opportunity to hear first-hand from Palestinian educators and students about their difficulties. The unanimous passage of this motion that shows that the Palestinian struggle for freedom, of which academic freedom is a key part, resonates with TUI members and sends a strong message of solidarity to their counterparts in Palestine"

Mr. Roche concluded: "We proposed this motion as we believe that, as with South Africa, the trade union movement has a vital role to play in helping apply pressure to end Israeli apartheid and occupation. I am proud that the TUI has taken a clear stand, and now support a full academic boycott of Israel in line with the Palestinian call for BDS".

http://www.ipsc.ie/press-releases/teachers-union-of-ireland-calls-for-academic-boycott-of-israel-in-unanimous-vote-first-academic-union-in-europe-to-do-so
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 06:27:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:45:41 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 04:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 04:14:36 PM
The glaringly obvious difference is that Israel does not go out of it's way to kill civilians. Yes they have killed civilians, and that is a tragedy, but civilians are not the target. When Israel finds that soldiers have deliberately targeted or killed civilians, then those soldiers are brought to justice. They don't get any wage, never mind one that's four times that of a policeman.




Palestinians deliberately target Israeli civilians. No if's but's and's or maybe's. That's murder, every single time, not just the odd mistake. Then they get rewarded for it. Sickos.

Read your post again. The disproportionate amount of dead civilian Palestinians is either down to Israel not going out of their way to kill them, or rogue soldiers, who are brought to justice. This makes it ok.

However the disproportionately small number of casualties on the other side is 'no if's (sic) but's (sic) and's (sic) or maybe's (sic)' is 'Palestinians deliberately targeting Israeli civilians'.

There is a hell of a difference between deliberately killing someone who has done you no harm, and killing someone by mistake while trying to target someone that had attacked you. No matter what the numbers are.
That argument is bollocks. Shoot to kill does what it says on the tin. IDF soldiers are taught that Palestinians are vermin and act accordingly. IDF discipline is a joke. Some Jew says Israel does not target civlilians.  The number of kids shot in the head says otherwise. Zionism is a deluded ideology with no respect for human rights.

Have you ever seen what palestinian kids are taught? Hamas actually have schools in terrorism for kids of primary school age.


QuoteINDOCTRINATING MUSLIM CHILDREN TO HATE JEWS

The Palestinian Authority (PA) set up its own educational system in 1994, shortly after the Oslo Accords had been signed (in September 1993).  Prior to the Six Day War (June 1967), the schools of the West Bank and Gaza Strip used Jordanian and Egyptian textbooks, which the Israeli government censored after achieving sovereignty over those territories, due to the extreme anti-Israel and anti-Jewish language of these texts.  However, in 1994 the PA's new Ministry of Education reintroduced the uncensored Jordanian and Egyptian texts, full of belligerent and anti-Semitic expressions.  In response to international criticism, the Ministry undertook the creation of a new set of textbooks, gradually phasing them in from kindergarten through high school, while slowly phasing out the objectionable Jordanian and Egyptian texts.

Much has been written to expose, or to defend, the Palestinian Authority's new textbooks.  Critics accuse the PA of misusing public funds from donor nations to support hate-education; of violating international legal norms with the virulence of that education; of inflicting catastrophic psychological damage on young children; and of preparing the next generation for more hatred, more terrorism, more war. Critics acknowledge that the new textbooks are an improvement over their predecessors. But the books still contain misleading, inaccurate, biased, selective and distorted history; they contain confusing and inaccurate maps that show "Palestine" as all of Israel,[ii] with Israeli cities like Tel Aviv replaced by Arab towns; and they exclude almost all of Jewish history from discussion about the Middle East. This biased education seems to have the goal of raising a generation of Palestinian children who will strive to carry on the terror war if their parents do not achieve victory in their own lifetimes.[iii]

Defensive assessments of these new textbooks assert the polar opposite,[iv] arguing that the new textbooks are fine, that the detractors are misled or misdirected by right-wing Zionist prejudices, and that the PA should be congratulated on the way that its new Education Ministry has handled the difficult job of teaching Palestinian nationhood and history while under siege.

Interestingly, some of these very supportive reports, perhaps inadvertently, validate some of the negative assessments. Professor Nathan Brown, in a generally very positive assessment of the PA textbooks, notes that concepts of civil behavior such as peace, tolerance, and dialogue are important themes, but there is "not a single reference to tolerating Jews or Israelis." PA textbooks contain lessons that value peace, pluralism, forgiveness, integrity, and tolerance in historical and present-day contexts; but there are "no references...to these values regarding Jews, Judaism, or the state of Israel."  In short, PA textbooks continue to "...do little to support peace and avoid sensitive issues connected with peace."[v]

The Israel/Palestine Center for Research and information (IPCRI) offers perhaps the most dispassionate, comprehensive and detailed examination of the PA textbooks.  On the basis of its in-depth analysis of the entire sequence of textbooks as introduced into classroom use over the past 15 years, the IPCRI studies discern a clear pattern.  The PA textbooks started out overtly anti-Israel with skewed and falsified history, incitement to violence, and the exaltation of martyrdom.  Over the years they have been moderated, with the most vitriolic hate-teach expunged; but they still reflect some bias and imbalance.

It seems plausible to suggest that the textbooks were cleaned up under international pressure: U.S. threats from to defund the PA, reports such as those coming from the UK's Taxpayers' Alliance [vi] urging that no UK money be used to fund "hate education," and European Union threats to cut aid.  But the desire to imprint on the next generation the need to continue the terror war against Israel is still very much alive; and that brings us to two additional aspects of PA education that must be explored. 

First, educators acknowledge that much teaching occurs beyond the textbooks and outside of the classroom. Under the leadership of the PA, incitement and hate-teach occur in the classrooms and on TV and radio.

Classroom incitement has been thoroughly documented[vii], as has hate-teach and hate-preach on PA TV and radio, where Jews and Israelis are represented as demonic figures. And the need to wipe Israel off the map is a frequent theme in the eulogies of suicide bombers, martyrs whose deaths in terror attacks intending mass murder endear them to Allah.  The goal seems to be to create a seething, raging population of young people far more interested in wiping Israel off the earth's face than in achieving peaceful coexistence.[viii]

PA and Hamas television and radio promotes these hateful values in programs that are produced for children of all ages, from pre-school through high school. For example, a Hamas weekly program starred a Palestinian version of Mickey Mouse, Farfur, who told children to pray until there was "world leadership under Islamic leadership" and in the meantime to oppose the "oppressive invading Zionist occupation." The Farfar character was ultimately beaten to death by an enraged Israeli "settler," and was replaced by an intrepid young bee who conveyed the same message to the preschool viewers. Similar messages are encouraged in the classroom with supplementary material and teacher-guided self-expression that encourage martyrdom and glorify terrorism and terrorists.

So while defenders point out the improvements in the textbooks, they ignore the fact that incitement and hatred and martyrdom are still very much a part of the education process for Palestinian children from early childhood onward.

Second, the role of Hamas in West Bank education is generally unnoticed, but is crucial for an understanding of the impact of PA education on Arab youth.  Since 2007 Hamas has shared power with Fatah in the West Bank, and the coalition agreement of 2006 puts Hamas in control of the Ministry of Education.  Over the last few years, the Minister of Education has moved Hamas loyalists into key positions in the education system. The Hamas teachers' union includes some 18,000 teachers in West Bank private and public schools. As of 2011, the latest textbooks clearly demonstrated Hamas influence.[ix]

New textbooks may appear more moderate, but the classroom environment, the old hate-filled textbooks, TV, radio and the Hamas stranglehold on the Education Ministry all promise more Jew-hatred, more Israel-hatred, and endless exhortation to children's suicidal martyrdom. Hamas uses its own children as political pawns; they are encouraged to participate in violent demonstrations, taught the virtues of mass murder, and exhorted to die a martyr's death. All this is done in clear violation of the Geneva Convention.

Do the Palestinian Authority textbooks inspire children to mass murder and suicidal martyrdom?  The accurate answer right now may be: not as much as they used to. But if Hamas has its way, it will not be long before they do again. Meanwhile, other resources do exactly that, in the Palestinian classroom, media, and society.

The text above is adapted from "Child Abuse As Public Policy in the Palestinian Authority," by David Meir-Levi (September 13, 2011).

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2013, 06:33:22 PM
That is the nature of injustice BDB.

Inflict it brutally and expect some negative feedback.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 07:12:21 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 06:33:22 PM
That is the nature of injustice BDB.

Inflict it brutally and expect some negative feedback.
Ahhhh, that's all right then. It's just "negative feedback." Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 07:13:38 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 09:39:29 PM
You mean the system that pays convicted child murderers more than policemen

There are other child killers, who have killed a lot more, and who are paid a hell of a lot more. But you are completely blind to the disproportionate death toll between the two.

You are blind to who the targets are between the two. I have yet to hear about Israel paying convicted murderers any wage.
Do IDF soldiers work for nothing? It is hilarious that jews in uniform who kill can cite war but any palestinian who kills a jew becomes a murderer. Make up your mind. And when is the last time an israeli death squad killed a jew for a crime committed?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 07:17:22 PM
That hamas education link is bullshit . Israeli pr is built on the notion that the palestinians are savages.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 07:27:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 07:13:38 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 06, 2013, 09:39:29 PM
You mean the system that pays convicted child murderers more than policemen

There are other child killers, who have killed a lot more, and who are paid a hell of a lot more. But you are completely blind to the disproportionate death toll between the two.

You are blind to who the targets are between the two. I have yet to hear about Israel paying convicted murderers any wage.
Do IDF soldiers work for nothing? It is hilarious that jews in uniform who kill can cite war but any palestinian who kills a jew becomes a murderer. Make up your mind. And when is the last time an israeli death squad killed a jew for a crime committed?
If the palestinians were to attack an IDF target and mistakenly kill a civilian in crossfire or whatever, then they would have a defence against a charge of murder.
How many palestinians have PA/Hamas convicted for killing Israeli civilians? I'll give you a clue, it's less than one.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
Suicide bombings stopped because of better security not because hamas developed morals. If they had morals they wouldn't be firing missiles into civilian areas, would they?
suicide bombing stopped because of a number of factors . Mass peaceful demos are what israel  fears most since it has zero moral legitimacy . Israel needs the rockets .
So hamas are just doing Israel a favour by targeting civilians. You're the worst type of friend Palestinians need.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2013, 07:34:05 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 07:12:21 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2013, 06:33:22 PM
That is the nature of injustice BDB.

Inflict it brutally and expect some negative feedback.
Ahhhh, that's all right then. It's just "negative feedback." Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Yip. It isn't even an eye for an eye.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 07:36:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
Suicide bombings stopped because of better security not because hamas developed morals. If they had morals they wouldn't be firing missiles into civilian areas, would they?
suicide bombing stopped because of a number of factors . Mass peaceful demos are what israel  fears most since it has zero moral legitimacy . Israel needs the rockets .
So hamas are just doing Israel a favour by targeting civilians. You're the worst type of friend Palestinians need.
Look at how israel justifies every attack on Gaza , Itchy. It is always about rockets. It always follows an Israeli media campaign. It is all a game for Israel. Anyway if there were no rockets nothing would change. Israel wants all of the land. Has done since 1948.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 07:43:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 07:17:22 PM
That hamas education link is bullshit . Israeli pr is built on the notion that the palestinians are savages.


Oh OK then. How many other links would you like?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=etDb5tXPawc

"Palestinian" children taught to hate Jews and Christians, PA TV rebroadcasts: Christians and Jews are "inferior" and "despised" "Our enemy, Zion, is Satan with a tail"


PA children taught to hate
Jews and Christians


PA TV rebroadcasts:
Christians and Jews are "inferior" and "despised"
"Our enemy, Zion, is Satan with a tail"


by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik, PMW

Palestinian Authority TV chose to rebroadcast a program featuring a little girl reciting a hate poem targeting Jews and Christians as "inferior and smaller, more cowardly and despised." It was broadcast in May and again this month.

In addition, Palestinian Media Watch reported last month that in April, PA TV broadcast a young girl reciting a poem that included the words: "Our enemy, Zion, is Satan with a tail." One month later, PA TV broadcast an even younger girl reciting the poem with the same hate speech, adding that the child had already recited it at the opening of a Palestinian exhibition of educational tools.

Click to view latest broadcast of "Satan with a tail"-poem
Click to view first broadcast of "Satan with a tail"-poem

Palestinian Media Watch has documented that hate speech and demonization of Israel and Jews is common in the PA and the structures under its control.

The following are the transcripts of the poems recited on PA TV:


Jews and Christians as "inferior and smaller, more cowardly and despised"


PA TV host: "You are going to recite a poem, which also teaches us responsibility and belonging."
Girl: "... The occupier stole my land and my grandfathers' land...
Where is your sword, Khaled (Arab warrior)?
Where is your courage, Saladin (Muslim conqueror)?
But no one answered me.
Where is my weapon? I found it - a stone. I took it and threw it at the enemies of destiny. I taught the world that the Muslim in the name of Allah cannot be defeated...
They challenge us with the White House, and we challenge them with the [Islamic] awakening and the Kaaba [in Mecca]. They aren't stronger than Khosrau and Caesar (rulers of Persian and Byzantine Empires).
They [Christians and Jews] are inferior and smaller, more cowardly and despised. They are remnants of the [Christian] crusaders and Khaibar (i.e., Jewish village destroyed by Muslims in 629)...
Oh Muslims of the world: Awaken, you have slept too long.
Your fathers and your sons are being massacred, your Al-Aqsa [Mosque] is defiled and destroyed."
Host: "Bravo! Applause for our friend Lara."

[PA TV (Fatah), May 11 and June 2, 2012]

"Our enemy, Zion, is Satan with a tail." (1)


Host: "Lina, how did you participate in the exhibition [of educational tools]?"
Lina: "I recited a poem."
Host: "A poem."
Co-host: "Lina opened the exhibition."
Lina: "When I was young, I was taught that Arabness is my honor...
and that our lands extend from one end to the other,
and that our wars were for the Al-Aqsa Mosque,
and that our enemy, Zion, is Satan with a tail..."

[PA TV (Fatah), May 8, 2012]


"Our enemy, Zion, is Satan with a tail." (2)


Host: "Laila, what do you want to recite next?"
Laila: "When I was young I was taught that Arabness is my honor...
and that our lands extend from one end to the other,
and that our wars were for the Al-Aqsa Mosque,
and that our enemy, Zion, is Satan with a tail...
Our division is by your hands [Arab rulers]. May your hands be cut off.
We are fed up with our division, while all people are uniting."
Host: "Bravo, bravo, bravo."

[PA TV (Fatah), April 7, 2012]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/06/palestinian-children-taught-to-hate-jews-and-christians-pa-tv-rebroadcasts-christians-and-jews-are-i.html (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/06/palestinian-children-taught-to-hate-jews-and-christians-pa-tv-rebroadcasts-christians-and-jews-are-i.html)



Teaching Hatred of Israel and Jews in the New Palestinian Authority Schoolbooks
Itamar Marcus

This paper was an annexe to a submission made to the UK Parliament's Select Defence Committee.

One of the most meaningful gauges of the integrity of a peace process and its likelihood for success is the degree to which the peace partners educate towards peace.

It is for this reason that the entire Palestinian Authority (PA) education apparatus, both formal and informal, has been such a dismal disappointment. Instead of seizing the opportunity to educate the future generations to live with Israel in peace, the PA has done everything in its power to teach hatred to young minds.

To conceal this, the Palestinian Authority has been spreading two falsehoods about the schoolbooks that have unfortunately succeeded in deflecting international pressure for change.

PA Foreign Minister Nebil Shaath recently answered complaints about the schoolbooks, saying that the PA has spent five years rewriting the books, implying that the problems have been eliminated. Then he added that Israel used the same old Jordanian books for educating the local Arab population for 30 years, and therefore has no valid complaint against the PA. Many European governments have come to the PA's defense, citing these arguments.

The first truth about the PA schoolbooks is that both new and old include anti-Semitic messages, de-legitimize Israel's existence and incite to hatred and violence. Anti Semitism, for example, is found openly in the new 6th grade book "Reading the Koran", as children read about Allah's warning to the Jews that because of their evil Allah will kill them:

"...Oh you who are Jews... long for death if you are truthful... for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you... "
In other sections, they learn of Jews being expelled from their homes by Allah, and in another Jews are said to be like donkeys:

"Those [Jews] who were charged with the Torah, but did not observe it, are like a donkey carrying books... " [Reading the Koran, grade 6. p.20, 23, 78].
This religious-based anti-Semitism is the most dangerous, as children are taught that hating Jews is God's choice. And while not intending any criticizing of Islam, it is very grave that although Islam has positive traditions regarding Jews, the PA educators selected only hateful religious traditions for inclusion in their schoolbooks.

The new PA schoolbooks teach that Israel has no right to exist, de-legitimizing Israel as a foreign occupier, like colonial Britain.

"Colonialism: Palestine faced the British occupation after the First World War in 1917, and the Israeli occupation in 1948" [National Education, sixth grade, p. 16].
Since all of Israel is taught to be "occupied territory", all of Israel's cities, regions and natural resources are taught to be part of "Palestine". For example:

"Among the famous rocks of southern Palestine are the rocks of Beersheba and the Negev," and "Palestine's Water Sources - ... The most important is the Sea of Galilee." [Our Beautiful Language, grade 6, Part A, p. 64, National Education, sixth grade, pp. 9-10]
Although, the Negev, Beersheba and the Sea of Galilee are part of the State of Israel since its creation in 1948 PA children are taught these are "Palestine". Continuing this ideology a book is cited dedicated to

"...Palestinians, so that they would remember their stolen homeland and work for its salvation..." and it is referring, not to the disputed territories, but all of Israel [Our Beautiful Language, sixth grade, Part A, p. 112].
Educating children not to recognize Israel's existence is cemented through tens of maps in the schoolbooks in which Palestine encompass all of Israel. Israel does not exist on any map, within any borders. The PA defense of its schoolbook map -- that since there are no final borders the map is not portraying modern Palestine but Mandatory Palestine -- is an insult to our intelligence. Are we expected to believe that when Palestinian children see the map called "Palestine" in all their schoolbooks, they imagine Britain a half a century ago? And when Beersheba is called "Palestine", the children are picturing Biblical history?

Another new book teaches what must be done for "occupied Palestine" and the stolen homeland:

"Islam encourages this [love of homeland] and established the defense of it as an obligatory commandment for every Muslim if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. I, a Palestinian Muslim, love my country Palestine..." [Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 68]
The complete and total message Palestinian children are taught is that Jews, according to Allah, are like "donkeys"; Israel is a colonial occupier who stole their land; the cities, lakes and deserts of Israel are "occupied Palestine"; and they, the children, have an obligation to liberate it even if a centimeter is stolen.

All the above messages are found in new schoolbooks written and published by the PA since 2000. The first claim, that new PA books have fixed the problems, is thus flagrantly untrue.

However, half of the books still in use by the PA schools are books they republish under the symbol of their own Ministry of Education, that were written by Jordan. These books include the following hate promotion:

"One must beware of the Jews, for they are treacherous and disloyal." [Islamic Education for Ninth Grade p. 79, these and below from CMIP report]

"I learn from this lesson: I believe that the Jews are the enemies of the Prophets and the believers."[Islamic Education, Part Two, for Fourth Grade p. 67]

"Remember: The final and inevitable result will be the victory of the Muslims over the Jews."[Our Arabic Language for Fifth Grade p. 67]

"The clearest examples of racist belief and racial discrimination in the world are Nazism and Zionism. "[The New History of the Arabs and the World, p. 123]

The continued inclusion of these hate teachings in the PA school system, is inexcusable. The PA justification that they were written by Jordan is of no importance. The child learning that "Jews are the enemies of the Prophets and the believers" learns that hatred of Jews is God's will, regardless of who the writer was.

The second PA claim, that Israel used the same old books is a falsehood. Indeed, Israel did use Jordanian books to educate the local Arab population. However, Israel reprinted the books without the hate education. In fact, Jordan registered a complaint to the UN charging that Israel's changing the schoolbooks was a violation of international law, but the UN checked what Israel had done and approved it. The PA has put back into the old Jordanian books all the hate education that Israel had removed.

Moreover, as early as three years ago, foreign governments offered money to the PA to reprint these old books without the hateful material. The PA turned down the money and refused to reprint them using a variety of arguments. These hateful Jordanian books are republished today, unedited by the PA by choice, and the PA must stop passing responsibility onto others for the hate content.

Finally, it should be stressed that all the new books cited here were written during the most optimistic periods of the peace process, before the violence began in September 2000. They are not a reflection of the war, but the hatred they have taught, is a paramount contributing factor to the war.

The PA is planting the seeds of the next war in their youth, and it is incumbent upon those European governments who give political and financial support to the PA, to demand the immediate expunging of all hate material from PA schoolbooks. Indeed, the simple step of conditioning all aid to the Palestinians on the elimination of hatred from their schoolbooks would be one of the most important steps that could be taken to promote peace in the Middle East today.


http://www.eufunding.org.uk/Textbooks/Marcus.html (http://www.eufunding.org.uk/Textbooks/Marcus.html)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 07:50:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 07:36:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
Suicide bombings stopped because of better security not because hamas developed morals. If they had morals they wouldn't be firing missiles into civilian areas, would they?
suicide bombing stopped because of a number of factors . Mass peaceful demos are what israel  fears most since it has zero moral legitimacy . Israel needs the rockets .
So hamas are just doing Israel a favour by targeting civilians. You're the worst type of friend Palestinians need.
Look at how israel justifies every attack on Gaza , Itchy. It is always about rockets. It always follows an Israeli media campaign. It is all a game for Israel. Anyway if there were no rockets nothing would change. Israel wants all of the land. Has done since 1948.

Have you seen the PA text books that show palestine as all the land between the sea and Jordan? Who wants all the land?


Palestinians hid true intentions from Obama




Tuesday, April 02, 2013 |  Israel Today Staff   


In a telling example of just how genuine, or, rather, how false, Israel's peace partners in the Palestinian Authority are, a monument that replaces the entirety of the land of Israel with a State of Palestine was hastily removed from Bethlehem before US President Barack Obama visited a little over a week ago.

Obama had gone to Bethlehem ostensibly to pray for peace at the birthplace of Jesus.

The offending monument was replaced with a statue of a dove, giving the impression that the Palestinian Authority, too, wants nothing but peace with its neighbors.

But the temporarily replaced monument tells the truth. The Palestinian Authority ultimately desires the removal of Israel from the map of the Middle East.

The monument, dubbed "The State Monument," commemorates last November's successul bid for non-member state status at the UN and "the outbreak of the glorious revolution," a reference to the first PLO terrorist attack against Israel in 1965.

The monument switch was revealed by Palestinian Media Watch, which cited a Palestinian newspaper report showing that local Bethlehem residents were not pleased by what they saw as a cowardly ploy to avoid upsetting Obama.

This was not an isolated incident. Those familiar with the Middle East conflict will already know that Palestinian and other Arab leaders regularly use very moderate sounding rhetoric when referring to Israel in English, but then turn around and say something completely opposite to their own people in Arabic.

Likewise, Palestinian school textbooks continue to erase the State of Israel from all maps, a violation of peace terms that Obama and many other Western leaders have repeatedly called out, to no avail.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23765/Default.aspx?topic=article_title
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 07:52:49 PM

Gaza Fires Rockets at South

Terrorists mark Holocaust Remembrance Day their way.


AAFont Size
By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 4/7/2013, 9:46 PM
 

Hamas terrorists, the modern heirs of Nazism, who declare openly their wish to commit genocide against the Jewish people, marked Holocaust Remembrance Day their way Sunday – with a salvo of rockets fired at Jewish civilians.

Three rockets were fired, the action timed to coincide with the official Holocaust Remembrance Day ceremony taking place in Jerusalem at the same time.

One rocket exploded in an open space within the Shaar Hanegev Regional Authority's jurisdiction, causing no injuries or damage.

Two other rockets appear to have fallen short and exploded inside Gaza.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166856
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 08:06:54 PM
Atlas shrugs, bdb. Jewish hate speech. Pamela Geller, the jewish version of Julius Streicher. FFS.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 08:10:02 PM
Palestine media watch. Tut tut. The daily mail is more credible.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 08:17:32 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 07:36:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
Suicide bombings stopped because of better security not because hamas developed morals. If they had morals they wouldn't be firing missiles into civilian areas, would they?
suicide bombing stopped because of a number of factors . Mass peaceful demos are what israel  fears most since it has zero moral legitimacy . Israel needs the rockets .
So hamas are just doing Israel a favour by targeting civilians. You're the worst type of friend Palestinians need.
Look at how israel justifies every attack on Gaza , Itchy. It is always about rockets. It always follows an Israeli media campaign. It is all a game for Israel. Anyway if there were no rockets nothing would change. Israel wants all of the land. Has done since 1948.

I agree with everything you say about Israel. They are an evil terrorist state. I don't think that means you can blow up women and children and blame Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 08:35:25 PM
I think it is worse than useless itchy. Hit israel in the nuts via mass civilian action. The best way. I think world opinion is changing too. No people is savage. But that is all israel can say. It is very sad really for the jews because israel claims to speak for them.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 09:06:10 PM
BDB posted this link

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/06/palestinian-children-taught-to-hate-jews-and-christians-pa-tv-rebroadcasts-christians-and-jews-are-i.html
Who is behind Atlas Shrugs2000 ? Pamela Geller

Who is she?


http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/pamela-geller

Pamela Geller is the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead. She's relentlessly shrill and coarse in her broad-brush denunciations of Islam and makes preposterous claims, such as that President Obama is the "love child" of Malcolm X. She makes no pretense of being learned in Islamic studies, leaving the argumentative heavy lifting to her Stop Islamization of America partner Robert Spencer. Geller has mingled comfortably with European racists and fascists, spoken favorably of South African racists, defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps. She has taken a strong pro-Israel stance to the point of being sharply critical of Jewish liberals.

In Her Own Words
"Islam is not a race. This is an ideology. This is an extreme ideology, the most radical and extreme ideology on the face of the earth."
— Pam Geller On Fox Business' "Follow the Money," March 10, 2011

"Obama is a third worlder and a coward. He will do nothing but beat up on our friends to appease his Islamic overlords."
— Pam Geller, AtlasShrugs.com, April 13, 2010

"Hussein [meaning President Obama] is a muhammadan. He's not insane ... he wants jihad to win."
— Pam Geller, AtlasShrugs.com, April 11, 2010

"I don't think that many westernized Muslims know when they pray five times a day that they're cursing Christians and Jews five times a day. ... I believe in the idea of a moderate Muslim. I do not believe in the idea of a moderate Islam."
— Pam Geller, The New York Times, Oct. 8, 2010

"Now do I see everything through the prism of Israel? No, I don't, but I do think it's a very good guide. It's a very good guide because, like I said, in the war between the civilized man and the savage, you side with the civilized man. ... If you don't lay down and die for Islamic supremacism, then you're a racist anti-Muslim Islamophobic bigot. That's what we're really talking about."
– Pam Geller, The New York Times, Oct. 8, 2010

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 09:42:04 PM
Quote"Now do I see everything through the prism of Israel? No, I don't, but I do think it's a very good guide. It's a very good guide because, like I said, in the war between the civilized man and the savage, you side with the civilized man. ... If you don't lay down and die for Islamic supremacism, then you're a racist anti-Muslim Islamophobic bigot. That's what we're really talking about." [\quote]

You do know she isn't equating the ordinary Palestinians as savages, but the extremists, don't you? Not everyone who is against Palestinian terrorists is islamophobic, just as not everyone who is anti Israel is an antisemite. Present company excepted of course.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 09:49:44 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 09:42:04 PM
Quote"Now do I see everything through the prism of Israel? No, I don't, but I do think it's a very good guide. It's a very good guide because, like I said, in the war between the civilized man and the savage, you side with the civilized man. ... If you don't lay down and die for Islamic supremacism, then you're a racist anti-Muslim Islamophobic bigot. That's what we're really talking about." [\quote]

You do know she isn't equating the ordinary Palestinians as savages, but the extremists, don't you? Not everyone who is against Palestinian terrorists is islamophobic, just as not everyone who is anti Israel is an antisemite. Present company excepted of course.

Geller is a fanatic.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/anti-islam-subway-ads-pamela-geller-mta-disclaimer_n_2295864.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 10:39:29 PM
You're an antisemite, but you're still entitled to your opinion.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2013, 10:44:36 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 10:39:29 PM
You're an antisemite, but you're still entitled to your opinion.
And as the last IDF soldier pulls out of Hebron as the first bots are flown to the Hague the cries of antisemitism will scatter in the wind. Never has a word been so filleted of all meaning.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 07, 2013, 11:03:33 PM
It's a word that's bandied about too easily, but well deserved in your case.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 05:43:30 AM
Poor old israel. Relegated to d4 on the last day of the season.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 10:24:08 AM
Don't worry too much, they've got plenty of D9s to make up for it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 11:48:40 AM
GHD's banned from Gaza


Hamas cracks down on 'inappropriate' hairstyles


Published today 12:20


(http://www.maannews.net/images/345x230/211970_345x230.jpg)



A young man dries his hair after getting a haircut at barber's shop in
Gaza City on April 7. (AFP/Mahmud Hams)

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Hamas security forces in Gaza have been rounding up young men and forcing them to get haircuts on grounds of inappropriate hairstyles, a rights group has charged.

Some of the youths have even been beaten for styling their hair in a way deemed unacceptable to Gaza's ruling Islamist movement, or wearing low-hung trousers, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights said on Sunday.

"Palestinian police have stopped several young men walking in different areas in the Gaza Strip in the last three days and taken them into custody saying their hair styles are inappropriate," said the PCHR.

"Those young men were forced to get haircuts in a humiliating way and several of them were beaten. They were also forced to sign statements saying they will never grow their hair or have strange hairstyles or even wear low-waist trousers."

The PCHR urged the attorney general to immediately open an investigation into the attacks and the beatings, saying they "undermine personal freedom".

"We severely condemn the detention of several young men in the past few days by the Palestinian police," said the PCHR.

Police spokesman Ayman al-Batinji confirmed some young people had been compelled to get their hair cut, in a move he said was related to inappropriate behavior on the streets.

"We received several complaints from headmasters saying a number of boys are hanging around on the streets and harassing girls," he said in a statement, adding police had begun the crackdown following "complaints" last week.

But he denied claims of police brutality, saying their treatment of the youngsters was "not as harsh as it appears," without giving further detail.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=583480 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=583480)

I think Israel should send over a few lorry loads of skinny jeans and hair gel to really f**k with their minds.  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: LeoMc on April 08, 2013, 11:52:52 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 11:48:40 AM
GHD's banned from Gaza


Hamas cracks down on 'inappropriate' hairstyles


Published today 12:20


(http://www.maannews.net/images/345x230/211970_345x230.jpg)



A young man dries his hair after getting a haircut at barber's shop in
Gaza City on April 7. (AFP/Mahmud Hams)

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Hamas security forces in Gaza have been rounding up young men and forcing them to get haircuts on grounds of inappropriate hairstyles, a rights group has charged.

Some of the youths have even been beaten for styling their hair in a way deemed unacceptable to Gaza's ruling Islamist movement, or wearing low-hung trousers, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights said on Sunday.

"Palestinian police have stopped several young men walking in different areas in the Gaza Strip in the last three days and taken them into custody saying their hair styles are inappropriate," said the PCHR.

"Those young men were forced to get haircuts in a humiliating way and several of them were beaten. They were also forced to sign statements saying they will never grow their hair or have strange hairstyles or even wear low-waist trousers."

The PCHR urged the attorney general to immediately open an investigation into the attacks and the beatings, saying they "undermine personal freedom".

"We severely condemn the detention of several young men in the past few days by the Palestinian police," said the PCHR.

Police spokesman Ayman al-Batinji confirmed some young people had been compelled to get their hair cut, in a move he said was related to inappropriate behavior on the streets.

"We received several complaints from headmasters saying a number of boys are hanging around on the streets and harassing girls," he said in a statement, adding police had begun the crackdown following "complaints" last week.

But he denied claims of police brutality, saying their treatment of the youngsters was "not as harsh as it appears," without giving further detail.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=583480 (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=583480)

I think Israel should send over a few lorry loads of skinny jeans and hair gel to really f**k with their minds.  ;D

Too right, anybody wearing low slung jeans should be beaten.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 11:56:35 AM
The case for Israel is made of four propositions that should always be presented in the correct escalating order.

1.   We rock
2.   They suck
3.   You suck
4.   Everything sucks
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2013, 02:12:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 11:56:35 AM
The case for Israel is made of four propositions that should always be presented in the correct escalating order.

1.   We rock
2.   They suck
3.   You suck
4.   Everything sucks

Sucky ár lá?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 04:32:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2013, 02:12:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 11:56:35 AM
The case for Israel is made of four propositions that should always be presented in the correct escalating order.

1.   We rock
2.   They suck
3.   You suck
4.   Everything sucks

Sucky ár lá?

As I said before............................. cliche ........................ after cliche .................................. after cliche. Not an ounce of substance.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2013, 05:21:44 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 04:32:32 PM
As I said before............................. cliche ........................ after cliche .................................. after cliche. Not an ounce of substance.

Thatcher or yourself?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 05:32:58 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 04:32:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2013, 02:12:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 11:56:35 AM
The case for Israel is made of four propositions that should always be presented in the correct escalating order.

1.   We rock
2.   They suck
3.   You suck
4.   Everything sucks

Sucky ár lá?

As I said before............................. cliche ........................ after cliche .................................. after cliche. Not an ounce of substance.
=  You suck

Give it a break Beaver
You haven't convinced anyone on the board.
the facts are too problematic.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 06:39:01 PM
If you think for one second that I am trying to change anyones mind on Israel, you are sadly mistaken. Not everything Israel does is wrong.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 07:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 06:39:01 PM
If you think for one second that I am trying to change anyones mind on Israel, you are sadly mistaken. Not everything Israel does is wrong.
apparently there is a good bagel shop in West Jerusalem.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 08:01:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 07:35:41 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 06:39:01 PM
If you think for one second that I am trying to change anyones mind on Israel, you are sadly mistaken. Not everything Israel does is wrong.
apparently there is a good bagel shop in West Jerusalem.

Several in fact. Quite a few in E Jerusalem too, long may it last.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 06:39:01 PM
If you think for one second that I am trying to change anyones mind on Israel, you are sadly mistaken. Not everything Israel does is wrong.
what are you doing on the board, habibi? Even Stew has disowned you.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 08:39:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 06:39:01 PM
If you think for one second that I am trying to change anyones mind on Israel, you are sadly mistaken. Not everything Israel does is wrong.
what are you doing on the board, habibi? Even Stew has disowned you.

Even Stew? Aw shucks, I feel so alone now. You still love me though, don't you?

































You do, don't you?  :'(
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 09:07:19 PM
Attention Deficit Disorder
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 09:23:08 PM
Please tell me you love me. After all we've been through together I couldn't bear it if you didn't care for me.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 09:34:33 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 09:23:08 PM
Please tell me you love me. After all we've been through together I couldn't bear it if you didn't care for me.
you remind me of Brian Carthy
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 09, 2013, 02:50:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 06:39:01 PM
If you think for one second that I am trying to change anyones mind on Israel, you are sadly mistaken. Not everything Israel does is wrong.
what are you doing on the board, habibi? Even Stew has disowned you.

Isn't it obvious.

He is here to kick a people who are down, to put them further down.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: johnneycool on April 11, 2013, 11:54:07 AM
I better put this up before Ball de Beaver does;

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/five-women-arrested-at-prayer-wall-590906.html (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/five-women-arrested-at-prayer-wall-590906.html)

Five women arrested at prayer wall

Thursday, April 11, 2013 - 09:06 AM
Israeli police have arrested five women who were praying at the Western Wall in Jerusalem for performing religious rituals that ultra-Orthodox Jews say are reserved for men.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said about 120 women arrived for their monthly prayer service today and five were detained for wearing prayer shawls.

The arrests come a day after Israeli authorities proposed a compromise to defuse tensions over their services by establishing a new section at the site where men and women can pray together.

The Western Wall, believed to be the only remaining part of the biblical Temple compound, is the holiest site where Jews can pray. It is currently divided into men's and women's sections. Orthodox rabbis, who control Israel's religious institutions, oppose mixed prayers.

The new proposal still needs government approval.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 14, 2013, 05:39:22 PM
Why Are Only Jews Referred to as Terrorists in the Media?
April 10, 2013 14:17by Simon Plosker

HonestReporting has long campaigned for the international media to call terrorism exactly what it is instead of using judgment-neutral terminology, such as "militants","extremists", "fighters" or "gunmen."

Yaakov "Jack" Teitel, a US-born Israeli resident of the West Bank was sentenced on Tuesday to two consecutive life terms in prison for murdering a Palestinian taxi driver in Jerusalem and a Palestinian shepherd near Hebron. He was also sentenced for other attacks including against a left-wing Israeli professor and messianic Jews. He also attacked a police station during a gay pride parade. These are only a few of Teitel's terrorist and criminal activities.


The Israeli media, including the JPost, YNet, and Times of Israel had no problem referring to him as a "Jewish terrorist" showing an impressive consistency in the use of language. They recognized that Teitel's hate-filled ideologically and politically motivated ideology fits the definition of terrorism. This demonstrates that the use of the word "terrorism" or "terrorist" or "terror" does not have to be a loaded term applied only to Palestinians murdering Jews for religious or political motivations.

It's just that the example of Teitel is, thankfully, extremely rare and certainly in contrast to the Palestinian side.


The LA Times and Reuters both referred to Teitel as having been "dubbed "The Jewish Terrorist" by the Israeli media" while the New York Times wrote that Teitel was "known as "The Jewish terrorist."

But where is the consistency?

If the media is prepared to acknowledge the Israeli media's usage of the term when applied to a Jewish terrorist, why then, are they still not prepared to apply it to Palestinian terrorists?

When it comes to consistency, it is difficult to match AFP's long-standing aversion to labeling Palestinian terrorists as anything other than "militants" or "activists." Bizarrely, AFP, in its coverage, refers to Teitel as a "religious activist."

While the term "activist" is consistent with AFP's approach, we have to ask if the wire service ever refers to religiously motivated Muslim terrorists as "religious activists" or is this term only reserved for Jews?

At least the Associated Press demonstrated consistency when it referred to Teitel as a "radical" and "extremist."

To reiterate – the description of Yaakov Teitel as a "terrorist" is not the issue. What is disturbing, however, is the sudden acceptance of the term by some media as a legitimate reference to an Israeli Jew while avoiding it when referring to Palestinians or other Arabs involved in the murder of Jews. Isn't it time for some consistency when it comes to the "T-word?"
http://honestreporting.com/why-are-only-jews-referred-to-as-terrorists-in-the-media/ (http://honestreporting.com/why-are-only-jews-referred-to-as-terrorists-in-the-media/)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on April 14, 2013, 05:43:27 PM
It's ok BDB, there are many terrorists on both sides of that conflict, but only one side looks like a boxer punching a quadriplegic.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: ardchieftain on April 14, 2013, 06:12:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 14, 2013, 05:43:27 PM
It's ok BDB, there are many terrorists on both sides of that conflict, but only one side looks like a boxer punching a quadriplegic.

Well said sir. Great analogy.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 15, 2013, 08:05:24 AM
I'm surprosed Seafoid hasn't put this up already, seeing as he's so concerned with human rights abuses in Gaza.  ::)



Gaza: 'Collaborator' Murders Go Unpunished

Torture, Unfair Trials, Then Shot Down


April 11, 2013




Email





Hamas's inability or unwillingness to investigate the brazen murders of seven men makes a mockery of its claims that it's upholding the rule of law in Gaza.



Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director


(New York) – The Gaza government has apparently not even begun a promised investigation more than four months after gunmen killed seven Palestinian prisoners accused of collaboration with Israel. Meanwhile, the Hamas government has set a deadline of April 11, 2013, for suspected collaborators to turn themselves in, promising them an amnesty.

The men, who were last seen alive in custody during the November 2012 fighting with Israel, were executed on a public street. One of the men's bodies was dragged behind a motorcycle. Military courts had convicted the men primarily on the basis of coerced confessions, ignoring credible evidence that interrogators tortured at least six of them.

"Hamas's inability or unwillingness to investigate the brazen murders of seven men makes a mockery of its claims that it's upholding the rule of law in Gaza," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "Even before the killings, the abuses the men suffered made the criminal justice system a travesty, regardless of their guilt or innocence."
In a separate case, on March 24, 2013, a military court in Gaza sentenced a man arrested in August 2011 and convicted of collaborating with Israel to death by hanging. Human Rights Watch has documented numerous cases of severe due-process violations, abuse of detainees, and unfair trials in Gaza; Palestinian rights groups recorded more than 100 allegations of torture in 2012 alone. The government should at least impose an immediate moratorium on executions, and preferably end the death penalty altogether, Human Rights Watch said.

In an April 6 statement on the website of the Gaza Interior Ministry, Muhammad Lafi, the deputy director of the Internal Security agency, stated that the security services had recently arrested an unspecified number of collaborators – allegedly working for "Western intelligence agencies" – and that "half of them have confessed."

Hamas set the April 11 deadline for surrender for a promised amnesty under the terms of what Hamas calls the "National Campaign against Collaborating with the Enemy." Lafi told Al-Monitor, a regional news website, that the agency has a list of collaborators who will be arrested if they do not turn themselves in.

The families of the seven men killed in November last saw them alive in detention facilities in Gaza, in some cases days before they were murdered, raising concerns that prison officials failed to protect them from the killers or, worse, handed them over.

Gunmen killed one of the victims on November 16, while the other six were killed on November 20, during the eight-day Israeli military offensive in Gaza.

The Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas's armed wing, claimed responsibility for the latter six killings, and notes were pinned to the bodies reading: "Al-Qassam Brigades announces the execution of the traitors," international news organizations reported. The gunmen tied some of the six corpses to motorcycles and dragged them through the streets. The faces of some of the motorcyclists are visible in photographs that have been published on news websites.

Human Rights Watch has reported extensively on laws-of-war violations by Israeli forces and by Palestinian armed groups during the November fighting.

Some Hamas officials offered weak justifications for the killings at the time. Ma'an, a Palestinian news agency, quoted Mahmud Zahar, a Hamas leader, as telling journalists on November 24: "We will not allow one collaborator to be in Gaza, and let human rights groups say whatever they want. A human has rights if they have honor and not if they are a traitor."
Hamas security officials also falsely claimed that one of the men had confessed to aiding Israel while the six others "were caught red-handed" and "possessed hi-tech equipment and filming equipment to take footage of positions" during Israel's November military offensive in Gaza, Palestinian media reported. All seven men had been in detention for months or years before the November 2012 hostilities, however.

Other Hamas leaders, including deputy politburo chief Musa Abu Marzouq, condemned the killings and called for those responsible to be held accountable. Ismail Haniyeh, the head of the Gaza government, stated on November 25 that Hamas had established an independent committee to investigate the killings, although he gave no details of its composition. On December 2, at a meeting with the Independent Commission for Human Rights (ICHR), the Palestinian national institution for human rights, Haniyeh criticized the killings, pledged to implement the committee's recommendations, and said that the government would consider compensating the victims' families if the committee called on it to do so.

The government has not announced any information about the committee's membership, work, or findings. Haniyeh did not respond to a letter from the ICHR in March requesting information about the committee. Of the five families of the victims interviewed by Human Rights Watch in December, four said in April that they had not been contacted by the committee. The wife of one of the men said that a Hamas official told her son that the killers had been caught and were being interrogated, but that she knew of no information to support that claim. The fifth family could not be reached for comment.

Family members of five of the six men killed on November 20, interviewed separately, said that when they went to collect their bodies at al-Shifa hospital that day, they found that the five bodies had been dumped together on the floor of the morgue, that hospital officials prevented them from recovering them for 24 hours, and that the bodies were in the same place the following day. The family of the sixth man declined to be interviewed.

The military prosecutor had charged the man who was killed on November 16 with collaborating with the enemy, and his trial was in progress at the time of his murder. Military courts had previously convicted the six men killed on November 20 of collaborating with the enemy, but in each case, appeals courts were still hearing their cases.

In at least four of the seven cases, the judicial authorities in Gaza appear to have ignored claims that the men had been denied access to family members and lawyers for long periods, that they had been tortured in detention, and that their convictions for collaboration were based on confessions obtained under duress, according to the men's families, lawyers, and court documents that Human Rights Watch reviewed.

Military courts have issued 13 death sentences against alleged collaborators, and the Interior Ministry has executed six of them since Hamas took power in Gaza in 2007, according to the Independent Commission for Human Rights. During and after hostilities with Israel in 2008 and 2009, gunmen and members of the security services in Gaza extrajudicially executed at least 32 people, including alleged collaborators. Hamas authorities told Human Rights Watch at the time that they had investigated four of the cases, which involved deaths in detention, and had filed charges against two police officers involved.

"Months after seven Palestinians were murdered in broad daylight, seemingly with the collusion of security officials, the Hamas authorities in Gaza appear not to have lifted a finger to investigate, let alone to hold those responsible to account," Whitson said. "Hamas should be taking concrete steps to reform the criminal justice system and break the cycle of impunity that, as these men's cases show, lets torturers and killers roam free."

The Prisoners Killed in November
On November 16, a group of armed men brought Ashraf Abdel Hamid Aweidah, 41, to the Naser neighborhood in Gaza City, where they shot and killed him. On November 20, gunmen brought Amer al-Af, Zoheir Hamudi, Ribhi Badawi, Bilal al-Abatsa, Ghassan Asfour, and Fadel Abu Shaluf to an intersection between the Sheikh Radwan and al-Naser neighborhoods in northern Gaza City, and shot and killed them, witnesses said.

Ashraf Aweidah
Aweidah, 41, a father of seven, owned a car-parts store on Qiyada Street in the Zeytoun neighborhood of Gaza City. Four men in civilian clothes arrested him at his home on December 26, 2011, his wife, Hitam, 39, told Human Rights Watch.

They said, "We just need to talk to him for five minutes," and they took him away. Fifteen days later, police in uniforms showed up and confiscated his Jeep and our car. They made him call us to tell us to give up the vehicles. That was the first time we'd heard from him. We found out that he was held by Internal Security at the "Governor's Castle" [Qasr al-Hakim, a detention center]. We went there for a month but they always told us it was "prohibited" to see him. When I was able to see him, I told him, "Ashraf, this is taking too long," and he held up one arm and said, "Patience." I could see underneath his arm that his skin was all bruised. He'd been tortured but we couldn't talk about it. There were guards behind him.

Gaza's military court initially assigned a lawyer to defend Aweidah; the family later hired Ibrahim al-Haddad, a private lawyer. Al-Haddad told Human Rights Watch that Aweidah was charged on June 20, 2012, with conveying information to the enemy to aid its military forces, undermining the reputation of the Palestinian revolution, and accessory to murder under the 1979 PLO Revolutionary Penal Code. Al-Haddad said that he met with Aweidah only in military court hearings, because Aweidah refused to see him elsewhere. Al-Haddad did not see physical evidence of torture but said that Aweidah's confession did not appear to be credible and that he appeared to change his statements to the court under coercion:


My client confessed to everything, to every attack on Gaza. They said he had a GPS in his Jeep so that he was in constant communications with satellites. His confession was 130 pages long. He kept changing the dates of his supposed actions. He'd say something in court, then they'd take him back to Internal Security and he'd correct himself the next time. I only knew he was in Internal Security because he told me so in court, that's all I knew. I asked the judge to transfer him to prison [from the Internal Security detention facility] but the judge said it wasn't in his power.

The Gaza security services distributed a video of Aweidah in which he confessed to sending information to Israel that Israeli forces used to kill Hamas leaders including Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi in 2004 and Said Siyam in 2009, Al-Monitor reported.

Al-Haddad said he had appeared before the Military District Court in Gaza City three times in Aweidah's case, but that the prosecution had not transferred Aweidah's entire file to him, hindering his ability to prepare a defense. Aweidah's trial was still in progress when he was killed.

Aweidah's family last visited him at the detention facility on November 10. Six days later, "a cousin called to say he'd been killed in the street," Aweidah's father-in-law, Abdel Samiah Barawi, told Human Rights Watch.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 15, 2013, 08:05:57 AM
Cont'd


Amer al-Af
Unidentified gunmen killed Amer al-Af, 37, on November 20, 2012. Mona al-Af, his 33-year-old wife, told Human Rights Watch that her husband had owned a café near the beach and was detained on August 30, 2010:


We didn't know where he was. Four days later, Internal Security men searched our home and said, "Don't worry, he's with us." Four months after that, he called to say he needed a change of clothes. They had finished investigating him by then. He had lost so much weight. He said they had tied him up and hung him from a hook. It was in a long room that he said other prisoners called "the bus."

Al-Af's son, Hassan, 18, one of six children, said that his father was detained by Internal Security at the "Governor's Castle" detention facility for three-and-a-half months:


He was transferred [during that period] for family visits to al-Ansar [detention facility], and later they sent him to al-Katiba prison. He could only whisper what had happened to him. There were guards in the room and we talked to him behind a glass window. He needed help standing up, the guards had to give him a hand. He said that when he was transferred to al-Katiba, the torture had ended and that "I can rest now," because they had finished investigating him.

Al-Af's family said the prosecution claimed that he had distributed money to Israeli informants. On January 24, 2011, a military court sentenced al-Af to death after convicting him of collaborating with the enemy. The death sentence triggered an automatic appeal to the military appeals court. After the lower-level court issued its sentence, the family hired a lawyer, Mohamed Najjar, to represent him at the appeal. The family said that Najjar urged the appeals court to throw out evidence based on al-Af's confession on the ground that it had been obtained under torture.

His family said that the appeals court stated on November 4, 2012, that it would deliver its verdict in December.

On November 20, Mona al-Af said, "People called my grandfather's house" to inform the family that Amer al-Af had been "killed near the Bahlul gas station on Nasser Street." Family members said they went to al-Shifa hospital at 9 p.m. that day to collect his remains, but that hospital staff refused to allow them to do so until the following day. Hassan al-Af told Human Rights Watch:


I was there when his body was brought in. He had been shot twice, once in the neck, once in the back of his head. They just put his body on the floor in the morgue. We waited until 11 p.m., but they said, "First we'll release the [bodies of the] martyrs, then we'll deal with your bodies." They called us back the next day, at 10:30 a.m. I saw the six bodies all on the floor, they hadn't refrigerated them. They were stacked on top of one another.

Ribhi Badawi
Internal Security officials arrested Ribhi Badawi, who was 37 when he was killed, on August 22, 2009, his family told Human Rights Watch. According to his family, Badawi had been a member of the "Jaljalat," an armed group that accuses Hamas of having compromised its religious and nationalist principles, and supported Abdulatif Musa, the leader of a religious group that opposed Hamas. Hamas forces killed Musa and more than two dozen of his supporters during a firefight in a mosque in Rafah in 2009. Badawi had participated in the fighting in Rafah but fled to Gaza City, his family said. One of Badawi's relatives, who asked not to be identified, said:


Internal Security officers and people in military uniforms came to our home and arrested him. For seven months, we didn't see or hear from him. Then, on our first visit, he told us that he'd been tortured for 55 days. They broke his teeth; we saw stitches in his mouth. And he said they'd suspended him off the ground, with his arms tied behind his back. We met him at the Internal Security prison [called al-Ansar]. We brought him fresh clothes and took his old ones, which were full of blood. He said, "Something serious happened to me that made me sign [a confession]."

Badawi's lawyer said that during the course of his detention, the military prosecutor changed the charges against him from terrorism, for his actions as a member of the Jaljalat, to collaborating with the enemy and murder under the 1979 Revolutionary Penal Code.

The military prosecutor charged Badawi on August 22, 2009. After that, the Interior Ministry transferred Badawi to al-Katiba prison, where his family was able to visit him regularly. "We would visit him every 15 days," his relative said. "He told the court that he was with the Jaljalat but rejected the collaboration charge, and they returned him to prison and pulled out his beard."

Ihab al-Jabari, the lawyer who defended Badawi, told Human Rights Watch that the military district court in Gaza City cleared Badawi of the murder charge, but convicted him of collaborating with the enemy and sentenced him to death by hanging on October 11, 2011, triggering an appeal. Al-Jabari showed Human Rights Watch Badawi's file and described the case:


His confession said that he had walked through the front lines during the 2009 war [with Israel] in the Izbt abd-Rabbo neighborhood [in Gaza], met an Israeli intelligence officer and received $1.5 million and the names of 2,500 other collaborators to whom he was supposed to distribute the money, and then he walked back across the front line. We showed there was no way he could have done that in the amount of time the prosecution said it took, which was just a few hours. We argued that he had contradicted his confession, and confessed under torture, that he hadn't been able to see a lawyer at all during his interrogation, but the judge didn't believe us.

The last of 15 hearings before the military appeals court in Badawi's case was scheduled for November 20, 2012, the day he was killed. He is survived by his wife and five children. His youngest daughter was born after he was in jail; he had told the family to name her "Innocence" in response to what his family said was the false collaboration charge.

Another relative, who asked not to be identified, said, "After he was killed and we got his body, we saw burns from cigarettes, and that his penis had been burned." His body had also been disfigured by being dragged behind a motorcycle. "There was no skin on his back, the bones were showing," the relative said.

Zoheir Hamudi
Zoheir Ahmad Mohamed Hamudi, from Beit Lahiya, was 47 when he was killed on November 20. Until 2001, Hamudi had worked in Israel. One of his eight children, Roma, 19, had received medical treatment at an Israeli hospital from 2005 to 2008, after playing with unexploded ordnance as a child, which blew off his right hand. His family speculates that these connections with Israel may have triggered the suspicions of Hamas security officials that Hamudi and his wife were spies for Israel.

Internal Security officials arrested Hamudi and his wife on April 17, 2011, relatives told Human Rights Watch. "It took us three months to find out where they were held, by Internal Security, but they wouldn't let us visit and they didn't tell us any information about them for about one year," until they were charged and transferred to al-Katiba prison, Hamudi's brother's wife, Rasmiya Mahmoudi, 46, said.

His wife's sister, Soheila Dahamas, 50, said she was the first member of his family to visit him in prison, at the Katiba facility during Ramadan in 2011:


I said, "Did they torture you?" He said yes, they did. He showed me the inside of his ankle, where they'd burned him. He said they drew a picture of a motorcycle on a wall and told him to ride it, and then tortured him since of course he couldn't. He said the torture made him confess to things he didn't do.

Both husband and wife were charged with treason, and Hamudi was also charged with accessory to murder, under the 1979 Revolutionary Penal Code. Human Rights Watch examined court documents, including witness statements (with names redacted) presented by the military prosecution, dated June 21, 2011.

The court convicted them both on September 12, 2012, sentencing Hamudi to death and his wife to 10 years in prison. Before Hamudi's death, his lawyer had appealed his conviction on the basis of a procedural error by the lower court because his conviction was signed by the head of the court rather than the judge presiding in his case, as required by law. "The last appeals hearing was set for November 4, but they delayed it, and then the fighting started," the lawyer said. "We were expecting his case to be sent back for a re-trial" by the lower military court.

Another of Hamudi's relatives, who asked not to be named, said that the family believed he had been murdered at around 11 a.m. on November 20. "We got a call from someone who recognized him at 3 p.m. We went to the gas station but they wouldn't give them to us because of the crowd. People were stomping on the bodies."

Hamudi's son Wisam, 26, also went to try to recover his father's body. "After an hour we returned in a car but they had taken the bodies to al-Shifa [hospital]. But they wouldn't give him up. At 9 a.m. the next day we went to get him. The bodies were still on the floor in the hospital. We saw scars and burn marks on his body." Hospital staff had refused to give the family an autopsy report or a death certificate, relatives said.

Family members said that officials at al-Katiba prison did not allow Hamudi's wife, who is incarcerated there, to attend her husband's funeral.

Bilal al-Abatsa
Bilal Jamal Abdel Majd al-Abatsa, from Khan Yunis, was 26 when he was killed on November 20, 2012.

Internal Security officials had summoned him to their compound in Khan Yunis on May 18, 2010. Al-Abatsa had been a laborer in the smuggling tunnels beneath Gaza's southern border with Egypt, and also a member of the armed wing of Islamic Jihad, Saraya al-Quds, his family said. His uncle, Dr. Jamil al-Abatsa, 60, recently retired from the Planning Ministry in Gaza, said that when the family received the summons from Internal Security, "I had asked Bilal, 'Did you smuggle drugs, or weapons to the Jaljalat in the tunnels?' He said no, and I believed him, so I thought it was safe for him to go to Internal Security."

His family later learned that Internal Security officials immediately transferred him to Gaza City for interrogation. "We didn't know where he was for 17 days, and we couldn't visit him for 90 days," said his father, Jamal al-Abatsa, 59. Two weeks after arresting him, Internal Security officials came to the house and searched his room without presenting a search warrant, his family said, and questioned his family about whether he was a member of Jaljalat, which they denied.

In early June, 2010, Internal Security officials summoned al-Abatsa's father, two of his brothers, and his wife to the Ansar compound in Gaza City for questioning, and said that he was suspected of collaborating with Israel. "They asked me, 'Who paid for his wedding? Where does he get his money?' But I paid for it. The day before they arrested him, I was still paying off the debt," his father said. Al-Abatsa's brother and father said they were summoned repeatedly thereafter by Internal Security and the military prosecutor's office in Gaza City.

His wife and mother visited him in mid-September, 2010. "We talked to him through a window," said his wife, Abeer. "He said he had been tortured, that he couldn't stand up. [His daughter] Alaa was a week old then and he asked to be allowed to hold her, but he needed help, he was too weak to hold her. He had lost four teeth, his vision in both eyes was very bad. I got to see him every two weeks for about 20 minutes."

Human Rights Watch observed numerous court documents from al-Abatsa's trials before a military district court and a military appeals court, in Gaza City. His first trial began on September 29, 2010, and ended, after 30 hearings, with his conviction on charges of collaborating with the enemy, on October 6, 2011. The lower military court's death sentence triggered an appeal, where Ghazi Abu Warda, a lawyer in Gaza City, represented al-Abatsa, and presented defense witnesses at three hearings. Al-Abatsa's cousin, Yehia Musa, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, testified that he had visited him in detention and believed he had been abused in custody. At a fourth hearing, al-Abatsa told the court he had been tortured. The hearings ended in March, but the appeals court repeatedly delayed its verdict and had not delivered it at the time he was killed.

His mother last saw al-Abatsa on October 27, 2012, in al-Katiba prison. "We were supposed to see him on the day he was killed," she said. When the family retrieved his body, "we couldn't see his eyes, his face had been beaten so badly," a relative said. Human Rights Watch viewed a video of al-Abatsa's burial and of his body in a mosque, with bruises visible on his eyes.

Fadel Shaluf
Although Human Rights Watch did not investigate the killing of Fadel Shaluf, 24, from Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip, his case was reported in-depth in the media. These reports indicated that he had been tortured in detention. He was abducted on January 10, 2008, his relatives told the New York Times. Shaluf's father told the newspaper that the Internal Security agency summoned him nine days later, and that he saw Fadel; interrogators had broken his fingers, dripped melted hoses onto his skin, and hung him from the ceiling by his ankles.
Ghassan Asfour, from the Shaja'iya neighborhood in eastern Gaza City,was also murdered on November 20, 2012. Human Rights Watch contacted his family, who preferred not to be interviewed about his case.


http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/11/gaza-collaborator-murders-go-unpunished (http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/11/gaza-collaborator-murders-go-unpunished)


Of course, this may all be just a huge misunderstanding, and Hamas were actually trying their best to save these men. I'd hate to think that such a democratic, upstanding organisation like Hamas would treat prisoners in this way.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 15, 2013, 07:20:53 PM
Let's discuss israel's use of collaborators this week. The blackmail especially.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 15, 2013, 08:41:42 PM
Fire away.


























Oh, sorry, Hamas have already done that, haven't they.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 15, 2013, 09:36:51 PM

Yom Ha'atzma'ut Begins; Israel is 65

Israelis made the annual abrupt jump from sorrow to joy Monday night, as Memorial Day concluded, and Yom Ha'atzma'ut began.


AAFont Size
By David Lev
First Publish: 4/15/2013, 9:41 PM




IDF units

Flash90


Israelis made the annual abrupt jump from sorrow to joy Monday night, as Memorial Day concluded, and Yom Ha'atzma'ut (Independence Day) began. The main torch lighting ceremony opening Yom Ha'atzma'ut took place at Mt. Herzl in Jerusalem as the sun set, with 12 Israelis from different backgrounds and professions chosen to light the torches.


Knesset Speaker Yuli Edelstein opened the ceremonies, calling on all parts of the nation to show more understanding for the others. "We must continue to debate, but when we debate on issues like 'sharing the burden' of IDF service or 'left versus right,' we may not wish or work for the elimination of our opposite. We must strive for a society that includes those who debate and argue, where a hareidi Jew can actualize his lifestyle fully and without prejudice, while accepting responsibility for the safety and future of the state, just as a secular person his age would do," Edelstein said.


Turning to the young people in the audience, Edelstein said "it is by the hands of the youth that we will realize the future of Israel. You are our national hope. Do not succumb to exhaustion, and remove yourselves from the bubble," he said, adding that "our future is in Zionism, not cynicism."


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167157 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167157)

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY 

(http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/Israel/Flag-Pins-Israel-Ireland.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: stew on April 15, 2013, 10:40:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 08, 2013, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 08, 2013, 06:39:01 PM
If you think for one second that I am trying to change anyones mind on Israel, you are sadly mistaken. Not everything Israel does is wrong.
what are you doing on the board, habibi? Even Stew has disowned you.

I disowned anybody, I simply studied the entire situation over there and found the Israeli's wanting so my opinion changed somewhat.

I despise Hamas with all my being, that said the Israeli soldiers that are supposed to keep the peace and indeed the Israeli government are worse because they are failing to treat a people with any modicum of humanity, and they have abjectly failed to learn from history....................... their own history and that in itself, is repugnant and deplorable.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 01:01:13 PM

IDF Dismantles Ofra and Adam Security Fences




IDF Central Command has ordered the removal of the security fences around the Binyamin towns of Ofra and Adam, to enable access to PA Arab agricultural land around the towns for nearby villagers.

Ofra and Adam residents are dismayed by the decision, "To abandon the security of our population? How about building the new fence before taking apart the old one? Arab access to fields cannot come at the expense of essential security  considerations."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/266486
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 01:04:32 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 01:01:13 PM

IDF Dismantles Ofra and Adam Security Fences




IDF Central Command has ordered the removal of the security fences around the Binyamin towns of Ofra and Adam, to enable access to PA Arab agricultural land around the towns for nearby villagers.

Ofra and Adam residents are dismayed by the decision, "To abandon the security of our population? How about building the new fence before taking apart the old one? Arab access to fields cannot come at the expense of essential security  considerations."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/266486

Imagine the Israeli army taking over farmland in Mayo or Limerick and building walls around it. How would farmers react? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 01:04:59 PM
I wonder what Israel done on the poor wee pals to provoke this?


Jihad Terror Group Claims 'Credit' for Eilat Rocket Attack

A Salafi Muslim jihadist group has claimed responsibility for Wednesday morning's rocket attack on the Israeli resort city of Eilat.


AAFont Size
By Chana Ya'ar
First Publish: 4/17/2013, 1:36 PM


A Salafi Muslim jihadist group has claimed responsibility for Wednesday morning's rocket attack on the Israeli Red Sea resort city of Eilat.

"The lions of the Mujahedeen Shura Council in the Environs of Jerusalem managed to target occupied Eilat with two Grad rockets on the morning of April 17, and withdrew safely," a statement posted on jihadist web sites said. There were no details indicating the site from where the rockets had been launched, AFP reported.

However, a spokesperson for the Israel Defense Force said the rocket fire had been traced to Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, a region which has become a hotbed of terrorist activity since the fall in 2011 of former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.   

Egyptian military said it was still checking the source of the rocket fire. "We are still investigating to see if they were delivered from Egyptian territories but nothing is confirmed yet," a senior military official told AFP.

The two rockets slammed into the city of Eilat at about 9:00 a.m. Wednesday, one exploding in the back yard of a private home, the other landing in an open area.

Although a number of people suffered severe anxiety and shock as a result of the attack, no one was physically injured and no property damage was reported.

Authorities ordered a temporary closure of the local Eilat airport as a safety precaution, and a flight to the area from Ben Gurion International Airport was canceled. However, schools in Israel's southernmost Negev city remained opened despite the rocket fire.

Israeli media quoted unnamed Jordanian sources who said the Jordanian port city of Aqaba, located across the bay from Eilat, may also have been hit by rocket fire at about the same time as Eilat. The report was unconfirmed, however, and Jordanian government officials raced to deny the report.

Eilat was also struck by rocket fire a number of times last year in attacks launched from Sinai, at least one of which was claimed by an Islamist group calling itself Ansar Jerusalem.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167221
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 01:25:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 15, 2013, 07:20:53 PM
Let's discuss israel's use of collaborators this week. The blackmail especially.
Still waiting on this discussion. Lets discuss the false allegations flying around.

Go ahead, discuss.

Palestinians say falsely identified as Mossad agents in cyber attack


Published Monday 15/04/2013 (updated) 16/04/2013 11:51






BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- Hackers who published the names of alleged Mossad agents have infuriated several Palestinians living in Israel who say they were falsely identified as agents of the Israeli intelligence agency.

Hackers in March published lists naming thousands of alleged Mossad employees.

One Palestinian named in the leak said "amateur hackers seemingly obtained the names from private business companies and claimed the names were of Mossad agents," adding that the names appeared to have been taken from shoe stores, travel agencies and private businesses.

A 32-year-old Palestinian living in Haifa in northern Israel said she was shocked when a colleague said her name was on the list.

"I expected he was joking, so I asked him to congratulate me for that, but he insisted he was serious, and he showed me the list with my name in it," the woman told Ma'an, asking not to be identified.

She said the ordeal was tough because her co-workers took the allegation seriously. "They were whispering together and looking at me with suspicious glances.

"As other virtuous Arabs, I found myself faultlessly facing accusations as a result of a situation fabricated by some individuals who published a list of names without checking the validity of their claims."

She added: "Though I am not involved in any political activities, I am a patriotic Palestinian loyal to my homeland's interests. After all the suffering I went through in my life, I found myself under suspicion and defending myself. It is really bitter to destroy virtuous people just because some individuals wanted to satisfy their desires and publish uncertain information."

She said her family's reputation was damaged and so she contacted local organizations for assistance, but found they were not interested in the case.

"So I decided to launch a campaign to discharge all the people whose names appeared in the alleged list from the false accusations."

The woman also contacted the hacker groups involved in the campaign.

"The Anonymous group told me they would check and publish a clarification, but later they said the list was published by another group called Sector 707," she said.

She got in touch with websites that had published the list, and says she received several apologies.

"We obtained the list from one of the hackers and we took it down after two or three hours after we discovered the names were taken from the database of a telecommunications company," one of the websites told her, she says.

Meanwhile, a Palestinian man living in Upper Galilee told Panet website that his name appeared on the list.

"I was shocked when I saw my name and contact information in an alleged list of Mossad agents. The worst thing about the case was that a majority of people treated that list as if it was real, and they started to view the names in the list as if they were really Mossad agents. This is a false accusation and it is very dangerous," he said.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=585879
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 01:31:31 PM
The next instalment of "You couldn't make it up" includes this gem from Gaza.

Gaza fishing ban imposed for 'security reasons'


Published today (updated) 17/04/2013 14:27

GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Hamas security forces in Gaza have banned fishermen from working since Monday, a human rights center said Wednesday.

Naval security forces in the coastal territory imposed a ban on fishing at 5 a.m. on Monday for "security reasons," according to Al-Mezan center for human rights.

Mahfouz al-Kabariti, chairman of the Palestinian Association for Fishing and Marine Sports, told Ma'an that fishermen were notified about the decision.

Palestinian sources in Gaza told Ma'an that it is likely the ban was imposed after three prisoners escaped from jail on Monday.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=586524

At least Israel lets them fish up to a limit. Hamas, the saviours of Gaza.  :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 01:48:06 PM
How the Jewish State uses collaborators to frame political opponents.

"In a brief interrogation at the Etzion facility, he was asked about Hamas. In the past he had always been accused of being a member of the Popular Front, but this time it was Hamas. It was the holy month of Ramadan, but Ahmar took out a cigarette and asked his interrogator for a light. "Deny it or not, we have all the information," the interrogator told the heretic who smoked during Ramadan and was accused of recruiting people for Hamas. That was the first and almost the only interrogation he underwent in the 20 months that followed, with the exception of another brief conversation with "Nimrod" across the fence at the Ofer detention facility. Ahmar says that "Nimrod" suggested that he make a confession. "Admit that you belong to an organization, admit to something, something small, and we'll charge you with that and finish this. You know that we can create information about you; we have collaborators who will say anything." His detention was extended by eight days and then by another four, and he was certain that he was about to go home. Then came the decision: six months of administrative detention.  "I had the feeling that they had begun to run amok and to shatter our lives," he recalls. "I thought an error had been made and the appeals judge would release me immediately. Then the judge endorsed [the six-month detention] and I thought about another appeal; there would be a good session and the judge would annul it. But the appeal was rejected again. I thought to myself: Six months will pass, things will calm down. Then I got another six months. And then another six months and another six months. Six months four times, until finally the judge said that two months had to be dropped because there was no new material. For 11 years they have suspected me and suspected me, but haven't found anything."


Secondly , the use of collaborators or touts to buy land on behalf of Jews which them magically becomes Israeli land :

"The Elad association in particular has acquired a reputation for being careful to make their purchases strictly legal, but the way to these purchases is often paved with pressures and threats that border on the criminal; the forging of documents or obtaining them through fraud; the cynical use of Shin Bet security service collaborators as straw men and the shameful exploitation of the chaotic legal status of lands in Silwan, where the State of Israel has never regularized the legal listing of property in the Lands Registry. In this free-for-all of a war over land in the territories, it is no wonder that a mill of rumors, fears and speculations of various degrees of imaginativeness is flourishing."

That sort of shit never happened in Northern Ireland.

Extensive use of collaborators isn't honourable. And it doesn't befit the Jewish state.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 01:56:31 PM


http://www.haaretz.com/general/the-country-that-wouldn-t-grow-up-1.186721

"But democrats don't fence into Bantustans helpless people whose land they have conquered, and free men don't ignore international law and steal other men's homes. The contradictions of Israeli self-presentation - "we are very strong/we are very vulnerable"; "we are in control of our fate/we are the victims"; "we are a normal state/we demand special treatment" - are not new: they have been part of the country's peculiar identity almost from the outset. "
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 02:05:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 01:48:06 PM
How the Jewish State uses collaborators to frame political opponents.

"In a brief interrogation at the Etzion facility, he was asked about Hamas. In the past he had always been accused of being a member of the Popular Front, but this time it was Hamas. It was the holy month of Ramadan, but Ahmar took out a cigarette and asked his interrogator for a light. "Deny it or not, we have all the information," the interrogator told the heretic who smoked during Ramadan and was accused of recruiting people for Hamas. That was the first and almost the only interrogation he underwent in the 20 months that followed, with the exception of another brief conversation with "Nimrod" across the fence at the Ofer detention facility. Ahmar says that "Nimrod" suggested that he make a confession. "Admit that you belong to an organization, admit to something, something small, and we'll charge you with that and finish this. You know that we can create information about you; we have collaborators who will say anything." His detention was extended by eight days and then by another four, and he was certain that he was about to go home. Then came the decision: six months of administrative detention.  "I had the feeling that they had begun to run amok and to shatter our lives," he recalls. "I thought an error had been made and the appeals judge would release me immediately. Then the judge endorsed [the six-month detention] and I thought about another appeal; there would be a good session and the judge would annul it. But the appeal was rejected again. I thought to myself: Six months will pass, things will calm down. Then I got another six months. And then another six months and another six months. Six months four times, until finally the judge said that two months had to be dropped because there was no new material. For 11 years they have suspected me and suspected me, but haven't found anything."
Just because enough proof can't be found, doesn't mean he's innocent.


Secondly , the use of collaborators or touts to buy land on behalf of Jews which them magically becomes Israeli land :

"The Elad association in particular has acquired a reputation for being careful to make their purchases strictly legal,
If fraud or or forgery is involved, then it isn't "strictly legal."  :o
but the way to these purchases is often paved with pressures and threats that border on the criminal; the forging of documents or obtaining them through fraud; the cynical use of Shin Bet security service collaborators as straw men and the shameful exploitation of the chaotic legal status of lands in Silwan, where the State of Israel has never regularized the legal listing of property in the Lands Registry. In this free-for-all of a war over land in the territories, it is no wonder that a mill of rumors, fears and speculations of various degrees of imaginativeness is flourishing."
You said it.

That sort of shit never happened in Northern Ireland.

Extensive use of collaborators isn't honourable. And it doesn't befit the Jewish state.

So, because Israelis use middle men, they are collaborators? The use of front men to buy property is totally legal and is used all over the world, even in Ireland. I know of at least one farmer in Fermanagh who had to buy land this way because the person who owned it wouldn't sell it to him because he's catholic.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 02:22:29 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 02:05:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 01:48:06 PM
How the Jewish State uses collaborators to frame political opponents.

"In a brief interrogation at the Etzion facility, he was asked about Hamas. In the past he had always been accused of being a member of the Popular Front, but this time it was Hamas. It was the holy month of Ramadan, but Ahmar took out a cigarette and asked his interrogator for a light. "Deny it or not, we have all the information," the interrogator told the heretic who smoked during Ramadan and was accused of recruiting people for Hamas. That was the first and almost the only interrogation he underwent in the 20 months that followed, with the exception of another brief conversation with "Nimrod" across the fence at the Ofer detention facility. Ahmar says that "Nimrod" suggested that he make a confession. "Admit that you belong to an organization, admit to something, something small, and we'll charge you with that and finish this. You know that we can create information about you; we have collaborators who will say anything." His detention was extended by eight days and then by another four, and he was certain that he was about to go home. Then came the decision: six months of administrative detention.  "I had the feeling that they had begun to run amok and to shatter our lives," he recalls. "I thought an error had been made and the appeals judge would release me immediately. Then the judge endorsed [the six-month detention] and I thought about another appeal; there would be a good session and the judge would annul it. But the appeal was rejected again. I thought to myself: Six months will pass, things will calm down. Then I got another six months. And then another six months and another six months. Six months four times, until finally the judge said that two months had to be dropped because there was no new material. For 11 years they have suspected me and suspected me, but haven't found anything."
Just because enough proof can't be found, doesn't mean he's innocent.


Secondly , the use of collaborators or touts to buy land on behalf of Jews which them magically becomes Israeli land :

"The Elad association in particular has acquired a reputation for being careful to make their purchases strictly legal,
If fraud or or forgery is involved, then it isn't "strictly legal."  :o
but the way to these purchases is often paved with pressures and threats that border on the criminal; the forging of documents or obtaining them through fraud; the cynical use of Shin Bet security service collaborators as straw men and the shameful exploitation of the chaotic legal status of lands in Silwan, where the State of Israel has never regularized the legal listing of property in the Lands Registry. In this free-for-all of a war over land in the territories, it is no wonder that a mill of rumors, fears and speculations of various degrees of imaginativeness is flourishing."
You said it.

That sort of shit never happened in Northern Ireland.

Extensive use of collaborators isn't honourable. And it doesn't befit the Jewish state.

So, because Israelis use middle men, they are collaborators? The use of front men to buy property is totally legal and is used all over the world, even in Ireland. I know of at least one farmer in Fermanagh who had to buy land this way because the person who owned it wouldn't sell it to him because he's catholic.
The system dehumanises Palestinians. That is the goal. Palestinians are scum in Israeli law. Collaborators are key to this. You put palestinians into a kafkaesque process where there is no law and you break him or her and then they do whatever you want. It's blackmail.

Comparing it to Fermanagh is pointless.   Palestinian sells land to what he thinks is another palestinian and next thing it turns out the land was sold to Jews. The people occupying the land are evicted and settlers move in. anyone wanting to get back to the property is shot.  does this happen in Irvinestown as well?   

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.

Are Taigs allowed to own land in Enniskillen ?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 03:12:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 02:22:29 PM
The system dehumanises Palestinians. That is the goal. Palestinians are scum in Israeli law. Collaborators are key to this. You put palestinians into a kafkaesque process where there is no law and you break him or her and then they do whatever you want. It's blackmail.

Comparing it to Fermanagh is pointless.   Palestinian sells land to what he thinks is another palestinian and next thing it turns out the land was sold to Jews. The people occupying the land are evicted and settlers move in. anyone wanting to get back to the property is shot.  does this happen in Irvinestown as well?   

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.

Are Taigs allowed to own land in Enniskillen ?
We can use analogies from Mayo and Limerick, yet not Fermanagh.  ::) Do you hate nordies as much as you hate the jews?

If a piece of land is up for sale, it's up for sale. Should someone be allowed to stop selling homes or land to Poles/blacks/catholics/protestants just because they don't want them living there? Is it right that we need to use middle men in our own country? The person refusing to sell the land to someone because of their own prejudice is the one at fault, not the one buying.


As for this piece of utter garbage.........
QuotePalestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.
What a load of balls. Hundreds of thousands of arabs own land and property in Israel. There is no bar on anyone buying or selling private property in Israel. The only land that is not for sale to anyone, is state land, or land held in trust.

On the other hand................

PA Court: Death Penalty For Selling Land to Jews  
Follow Virtual Jerusalem on  and

Date Posted: 2010-09-20 15:30:25
 


Selling land to Israel or Israelis is a capital offense, a Palestinian Authority court in the Jerusalem area ruled Thursday. The verdict overturned a lower court's ruling that such a sale was a "minor crime."


According to the Ma'an news agency based in Bethlehem, Judge Ta'et At-Twil ruled that the act of selling or attempting to sell land to a foreign country was a criminal offense which could warrant the death penalty.

A Prosecution statement said that the court issued the ruling as a consolidation of a previous legal principle, as per instructions it received from PA Attorney General Ahmad Al-Mughni. The Prosecution added that the ruling was made in order to "protect the Palestinian national project to establish an independent Palestinian state."In April 2009, a three-member PA military court sentenced a Hevron Arab to death by hanging for the crime of selling land to Jews in Judea and Samaria, Ma'an reported at the time.

Dozens of PA Arabs have been executed without trial in the past for collaborating with Israel by selling land to Jews, but the court's ruling last April was the first time the PA officially handed down a verdict of treason for the deed. Seven Arabs were executed in 1996 for "collaborating," and the PA later admitted that it was responsible for the murders. More executions took place in the following years, and one Arab, Mohammed Abu al-Hawa, was tortured and murdered in 2006 for allegedly selling an apartment building in Jerusalem to Jews.

While Jews are forbidden from buying land in the PA, PA leaders refuse to accept Israel's status as the state of the Jews. Israel does not forbid the buying of land by Arabs, and there have been persistent reports of oil-rich sheikhs who have been buying land in Israel for nationalistic reasons in the past few years.

http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=866

In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel's War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.

In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.

Meanwhile, in 1996, the Palestinian Authority (PA) Mufti, Ikremah Sabri, issued a fatwa (religious decree), banning the sale of Arab and Muslim property to Jews. Anyone who violated the order was to be killed. At least seven land dealers were killed that year.

On May 5, 1997, Palestinian Authority Justice Minister Freih Abu Middein announced that the death penalty would be imposed on anyone convicted of ceding "one inch" to Israel. Later that month, two Arab land dealers were killed. A year later, another Palestinian suspected of selling land to Jews was murdered. The PA has also arrested suspected land dealers for violating the Jordanian law (in force in the West Bank), which prohibits the sale of land to foreigners.  An Islamic judge renewed the fatwa barring Palestinians from selling property to Jews in 2008 and, as recently as June 2010, a Palestinian was imprisoned for 10 years on charges of selling land to Israel.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFrights.html#6

Please tell me I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 03:50:44 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 03:12:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 02:22:29 PM
The system dehumanises Palestinians. That is the goal. Palestinians are scum in Israeli law. Collaborators are key to this. You put palestinians into a kafkaesque process where there is no law and you break him or her and then they do whatever you want. It's blackmail.

Comparing it to Fermanagh is pointless.   Palestinian sells land to what he thinks is another palestinian and next thing it turns out the land was sold to Jews. The people occupying the land are evicted and settlers move in. anyone wanting to get back to the property is shot.  does this happen in Irvinestown as well?   

Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.

Are Taigs allowed to own land in Enniskillen ?
We can use analogies from Mayo and Limerick, yet not Fermanagh.  ::) Do you hate nordies as much as you hate the jews?

If a piece of land is up for sale, it's up for sale. Should someone be allowed to stop selling homes or land to Poles/blacks/catholics/protestants just because they don't want them living there? Is it right that we need to use middle men in our own country? The person refusing to sell the land to someone because of their own prejudice is the one at fault, not the one buying.


As for this piece of utter garbage.........
QuotePalestinians are not allowed to buy land in Israel of course.
What a load of balls. Hundreds of thousands of arabs own land and property in Israel. There is no bar on anyone buying or selling private property in Israel. The only land that is not for sale to anyone, is state land, or land held in trust.

On the other hand................

PA Court: Death Penalty For Selling Land to Jews  
Follow Virtual Jerusalem on  and

Date Posted: 2010-09-20 15:30:25
 


Selling land to Israel or Israelis is a capital offense, a Palestinian Authority court in the Jerusalem area ruled Thursday. The verdict overturned a lower court's ruling that such a sale was a "minor crime."


According to the Ma'an news agency based in Bethlehem, Judge Ta'et At-Twil ruled that the act of selling or attempting to sell land to a foreign country was a criminal offense which could warrant the death penalty.

A Prosecution statement said that the court issued the ruling as a consolidation of a previous legal principle, as per instructions it received from PA Attorney General Ahmad Al-Mughni. The Prosecution added that the ruling was made in order to "protect the Palestinian national project to establish an independent Palestinian state."In April 2009, a three-member PA military court sentenced a Hevron Arab to death by hanging for the crime of selling land to Jews in Judea and Samaria, Ma'an reported at the time.

Dozens of PA Arabs have been executed without trial in the past for collaborating with Israel by selling land to Jews, but the court's ruling last April was the first time the PA officially handed down a verdict of treason for the deed. Seven Arabs were executed in 1996 for "collaborating," and the PA later admitted that it was responsible for the murders. More executions took place in the following years, and one Arab, Mohammed Abu al-Hawa, was tortured and murdered in 2006 for allegedly selling an apartment building in Jerusalem to Jews.

While Jews are forbidden from buying land in the PA, PA leaders refuse to accept Israel's status as the state of the Jews. Israel does not forbid the buying of land by Arabs, and there have been persistent reports of oil-rich sheikhs who have been buying land in Israel for nationalistic reasons in the past few years.

http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=866

In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel's War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.


Please tell me I'm wrong.
You are always wrong .
Of course it is not allowed to sell land to Jews. Why would you sell land to someone who will then claim it belongs to his country? 

And West Bank and Gazan palestinians are not permitted to buy land in Israel. Why?
Palestinians are not allowed to claim compensation for land seized from them in 1948. Jews can regain land lost in 1948. Why? 

How much did the JNF buy pre 1948? Jews owned 6% of the land in what is now Israel in 1947. Very little.

Today they own over 91%. How did that happen? 
Your Israel supreme court story is bollocks.

Daniel Seidemann, a Jerualem lawyer, said that in his 20 years of handling residency rights cases for Palestinians he had never heard of a Palestinian with a Jerusalem ID living in West Jerusalem.

The reason, he pointed out, was that almost all land inside Israel's 1948 borders, including West Jerusalem, has been registered as "state land" managed by a body known as the Israel Lands Authority.

The authority allows neither Palestinians nor Israelis to buy property on state land. Instead long-term renewable leases are available to Israeli citizens and anyone eligible to immigrate to Israel under the country's Law of Return — meaning Jews.

The settlements in East Jerusalem — now covering 35 percent of the eastern city, according to Seidemann — are also built on land declared as "state land," in violation of international law. Again this means that only Israelis and Jewish foreign nationals are entitled to lease land there.

Because they do not hold Israeli citizenship, the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are disqualified from acquiring property either in West Jerusalem or in the settlements of East Jerusalem.

"The extraordinary situation is that a Palestinian who had his land expropriated to build the settlement of Har Homa [on the outskirts of East Jerusalem] cannot lease land there, whereas a Jew from Paris or London who is not even an Israeli citizen can."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 03:52:46 PM
Are Taigs allowed to own land in Enniskillen ?
Are northern protestants legally allowed to buy land in Monaghan? 

Israel is a joke.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 05:02:43 PM
Types of land in Israel


Mike Decker, the author, has a B.A. in law and is a partner at the law offices of Yehuda Raveh & Co. For legal advice in purchasing real estate in Israel contact Mike at: mdecker@yrlegal.co.il

http://www.buypropertyinisrael.com/article/types-of-land-in-israel


The three different categories of land in Israel are:

Those which may not be purchased by foreign citizens;

Those which may be purchased by foreign citizens, yet are subject to various conditions;

And those which may be purchased by foreign citizens not subject to any conditions.

The overwhelming majority of land is Israel is owned by the State and only a small minority is under private ownership. A negligible portion of land in Israel has not yet been categorized into either of these two areas.

Approximately 7% of the allocated land in Israel is privately owned. The rest, i.e. 93%, is owned by the State and is known as "Israeli Land". Israel's Basic Law on real estate states that Israel's Land is jointly owned by the State (69%), the Development Authority (12%), and the Jewish National Fund (12%). While the law expressly forbids transferring of such land either by sale or other means, it does imply that a long term lease would be permitted.

State-owned land includes all land that was subject to the British Mandate prior to the foundation of the State of Israel and was requisitioned by the government subsequent to its establishment. Development Authority-owned land includes land that was confiscated in accordance with the Absentee Land Law and the Land Purchase Law. JNF-owned land consists of land purchased before and after Israel's inception. The JNF's by-laws grant it a fiduciary role, stipulating that land it owns shall be held for the benefit of and in trust for the Jewish people. This principal has so far been respected and was solidified in a treaty entered into between the JNF and the State. A bill has recently been submitted to the Knesset (Israel's parliament) with the interest of legislatively solidifying this principal and is likely to be passed in the near future.

State owned land ("Israeli Land") is administered by the Israel Land Administration (ILA). Being a government orchestrated entity, the ILA exercises very limited powers, namely: the administration of State-owned land. The ILA is required to remain faithful to the purpose for which it was established and may not deviate from its authority. Furthermore, being a government entity, the ILA is subject to legislatively mandated modes of behavior, such as equality in hiring standards and the proscription of discriminatory practices.

While there is no legislative mandate prescribing the objectives the ILA must advance, these have been established through judicial precedent. A seminal ruling dictating these objectives can be found in the Israel Supreme Court case of Adal Ka'adan v. the Israel Land Administration:

"...The objectives that comprise the core authority of the Israel Land Administration are the continuation of State control of Israeli Land and the perpetuation of the administration and development of land in Israel under the concentration of a singular government entity. This is to prevent the transfer of ownership to non-favorable entities, to advance security issues and to authorize the operation of different national projects – such as: the absorption of new immigrants, the proper distribution of the population and agricultural settlement..."

Now that I have clarified the different types of land prescribed under Israeli Law, I would like to discuss the opportunities existing for their acquisition. In principle, land that is owned by the Jewish National Fund can be leased to Jews only. The implication is that foreigners, as well as Israeli citizens and/or residents who are not Jewish, are not entitled to lease this land. Nevertheless, the land that is owned by the Development Authority and by the State can be leased to any citizen of Israel, whether he is Jewish or not. Foreigner's who are Jews and are entitled to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return may also lease this land.
It is our experience, though, that in spite of the aforementioned limitations, foreigners who are not Jews can also lease land from the Israeli Land Administration, although this would be subject to approval by a specially convened committee. Such approval, should it be granted, is subject to submission of a cogent and persuasive letter demonstrating the potential contribution the applicant can make to Israel
. Recommendations from several Israeli sources attesting to this can also smooth the way to receipt of approval. Another option is to register a company and/or a not for profit organization in Israel and ensure that this entity has a board primarily comprising Israeli citizens.

The 7% of privately owned land is much less restrictive. The owner of such land may transfer his ownership to any other person, whether he is Jewish, non-Jewish, Israeli or non-Israeli.

Most of the privately owned land in the country is located in urban areas, chiefly in the large Israeli cities of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa. This is ascribed to the State not having requisitioned such land prior to its inception. This land, due to its geographical location and owning to the relative dearth of privately owned land, is in great demand today. Once again, there is no restriction on purchasing this land, irrespective of the potential buyer's religion or nationality.

QuoteOf course it is not allowed to sell land to Jews. Why would you sell land to someone who will then claim it belongs to his country? 
Sweet Jesus. Read this again, think about it, then tell me why it should apply in palestine but not in Israel. Why should Israel be held to a different set of rules than those expected of palestinians?
Jews are prohibited from owning ANY land in palestine, yet palestinians are prohibited from owning only certain types of land in Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 07:38:41 PM
Palestinians are not allowed to buy land in israel. Why should jews be allowed to.buy land in thewest bank? Why is the land of the west bank not 93% state land as is the case in israel?
because 40% of the land in the west bank is state land that belongs to jewish settlers.
Anf if you post in red does it turn horseshit into fact?

Israel never paid for 87% of its land .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
Israeli prime minister asks David Cameron not to arm Syrian rebels with anti aircraft weaponry. Because it is worried Jihadis will attack Israel.  It is not like Israel ever attacked any of the neighbours or anything.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
Israeli prime minister asks David Cameron not to arm Syrian rebels with anti aircraft weaponry. Because it is worried Jihadis will attack Israel.  It is not like Israel ever attacked any of the neighbours or anything.
If the rebels didn't hate the Israelis so much, Bibi would have gladly send in IAF and take out the Syrian aircraft for them. The truth is that no matter who wins in Syria, the will certainly be no friends of Israel, but it would probably suit Israel more for Assad to stay in charge, better the devil you know.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 08:52:16 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
Israeli prime minister asks David Cameron not to arm Syrian rebels with anti aircraft weaponry. Because it is worried Jihadis will attack Israel.  It is not like Israel ever attacked any of the neighbours or anything.
If the rebels didn't hate the Israelis so much, Bibi would have gladly send in IAF and take out the Syrian aircraft for them. The truth is that no matter who wins in Syria, the will certainly be no friends of Israel, but it would probably suit Israel more for Assad to stay in charge, better the devil you know.
The great tragedy of Israel. Violence never bought them the respect they crave from the neighbours.
I see Eilat was hit by rockets as well today.

Never mind. The nukes are still there. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 09:16:01 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/general/the-country-that-wouldn-t-grow-up-1.186721

"It has become commonplace to compare Israel at best to an occupying colonizer, at worst to the South Africa of race laws and Bantustans. In this capacity Israel elicits scant sympathy even when its own citizens suffer: Dead Israelis – like the occasional assassinated white South African in the apartheid era, or British colonists hacked to death by native insurgents – are typically perceived abroad not as the victims of terrorism but as the collateral damage of their own government's mistaken policies.

Such comparisons are lethal to Israel's moral credibility. They strike at what was once its strongest suit: the claim of being a vulnerable island of democracy and decency in a sea of authoritarianism and cruelty; an oasis of rights and freedoms surrounded by a desert of repression. But democrats don't fence into Bantustans helpless people whose land they have conquered, and free men don't ignore international law and steal other men's homes. The contradictions of Israeli self-presentation – "we are very strong/we are very vulnerable"; "we are in control of our fate/we are the victims"; "we are a normal state/we demand special treatment" – are not new: they have been part of the country's peculiar identity almost from the outset. And Israel's insistent emphasis upon its isolation and uniqueness, its claim to be both victim and hero, were once part of its David versus Goliath appeal."
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 09:40:56 PM
2006, Could you not have gone back a bit further?  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 17, 2013, 10:03:43 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 09:40:56 PM
2006, Could you not have gone back a bit further?  ;D
The notion that something that was written 7 years ago is irrelevant is very interesting. Israel decided to colonise the West Bank in 1967.
That was really stupid. Even Thatcher told Begin  as much. 
She said it was really dumb. and that was 30 years ago.

And it's still true today.
And Israel probably doesn't have another 30 years.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 17, 2013, 11:00:38 PM
Arafat said something similar 40 years ago. Israel has just passed the 8 million citizen mark. Not bad for a dying nation.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 18, 2013, 08:37:05 AM
"They lie to us and then they lie to themselves about lying to us" John Trudell

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/peres-extends-holiday-wishes-to-nation-as-israel-turns-65.premium-1.515779

"Israel's victory is one of humanity, not of land." Shimon Peres , Israeli president

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/oct/28/alliance-dared-not-speak-its-name/

"Shimon Peres, the wheeler-dealer who served as David Ben-Gurion's right hand on arms procurement before stepping into the political limelight himself, takes a bigger beating than P.W. Botha for his "customary sanctimony." In private, he could laud South Africa's white leaders, telling them that they shared "a common hatred of injustice." In public, he called apartheid "the ultimate abomination" and "the cruelest inhumanity." Having ascended to the post of prime minister, he assured the president of Cameroon that "a Jew who accepts apartheid ceases to be a Jew. A Jew and racism do not go together."
 
Peres on Dutch television, explaining why so many Palestinian children were killed during Cast Lead (takes him just one minute):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8XQspTXz_A
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 19, 2013, 07:37:45 AM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167279

For the second time this week. I wonder what the excuse is this time. Maybe the big bad jews have made it rain too much for the poor wee palestinians. Seafoid will no doubt have an eppy when Israel hits back.


Gaza Terrorists Fire Two Rockets at Israel

Terrorists from Hamas-controlled Gaza fire two rockets at southern Israel. No physical injuries or damages reported.


AAFont Size
By Elad Benari
First Publish: 4/18/2013, 11:29 PM




Hamas terrorists fire rockets at Israel



Terrorists from Hamas-controlled Gaza fired two rockets at southern Israel on Thursday evening.

The rockets exploded in an open area of the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no physical injuries or damages.

On Wednesday morning, the Color Red rocket alert siren blared throughout the city of Eilat shortly after 9 a.m. It is believed that terrorists fired three rockets at the city. No casualties were reported.

A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces said the rocket fire had been traced to Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, a region which has become a hotbed of terrorist activity since the fall in 2011 of former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.   

A Salafi jihadist group, the Mujahedeen Shura Council, later claimed responsibility for the attack.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: bennydorano on April 19, 2013, 09:36:59 AM
Though  there'd have been a bit of chat about tbe BBC2 doc on the other night, good balanced view of Israel's potential future (which prob doesn't suit most contributors on here).

The most interesting point raised was regarding the growth of Orthodox & Ultra Orthodox Jewish sects - under law they are entitled to pray all day, cant be conscripted to the army, are a nuisance to Police & IDF and are paid generous welfare benefits by the state in the process, the non-fundamentalists (secularists) abhor this situation & want change, this could be dangerous to state in future.

Was a good show, few other points made.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 19, 2013, 11:03:13 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on April 19, 2013, 09:36:59 AM
Though  there'd have been a bit of chat about tbe BBC2 doc on the other night, good balanced view of Israel's potential future (which prob doesn't suit most contributors on here).

The most interesting point raised was regarding the growth of Orthodox & Ultra Orthodox Jewish sects - under law they are entitled to pray all day, cant be conscripted to the army, are a nuisance to Police & IDF and are paid generous welfare benefits by the state in the process, the non-fundamentalists (secularists) abhor this situation & want change, this could be dangerous to state in future.

Was a good show, few other points made.
The centrist party Yesh Atid which won a surprising number of seats recently in the Knesset elections campaigned on an anti ultra Orthodox ticket. The ultra Orthodox justify refusing army service on the basis that praying for Israel is more important. I don't think the secular schmucks who serve buy that argument any more.

Israel has a big challenge figuring out what to do to integrate the ultra orthodox. Most are not very well educated and struggle to find jobs .   

One in 4 Israeli Jewish kids is malnourished and the kids concerned are overwhelmingly Orthodox/ultra Orthodox. It is quite a sad state of affairs really.

But obviously the settlers need the money more.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 19, 2013, 06:05:07 PM
Have you a link to this claim of malnutrition in Israeli kids?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 19, 2013, 08:03:19 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 19, 2013, 06:05:07 PM
Have you a link to this claim of malnutrition in Israeli kids?
meirpanim.org who say actually  2 in 5 israeli  kids do not get enough to eat .

They also support orthodox couples pay for their weddings. Some of the stories would break your heart . Women who  can't even afford to buy a wedding dress . Too ashamed to ask for help. That ain't right .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 20, 2013, 02:26:16 PM

Palestinian 'refugees', hypocrisy and unity: just follow the money


Cross posted at 'This Ongoing War', a blog edited by Frimet and Arnold Roth

The Arab-on-Arab bloodbath just across Israel's northern border goes on and on, and with it the incredible – and worsening – suffering of ordinary Syrians. That is, in significant ways, a function of politically correct but morally repugnant decision-making of the 'world community'.


Syrian Refugees January 2013

The decades-long handling of the Palestinian Arabs as a uniquely deserving cause is revealed for the scam it always was. People are paying with their lives for the double-talk about the 'refugees'. Those people are not only Arabs, but in many cases they are also the close kin of the undeserving beneficiaries of the Palestinian Arab Victimhood industry.

Evelyn Gordon writes ("How UNRWA Steals Money from Those Who Need It Most") about the current threat by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees to halt all relief operations in Syria and for the benefit of Syrian refugees. 1.3 million of them are being looked after until now; the number – given the ongoing unchecked savagery throughout Syria – is certain to grow.

$1.5 billion was pledged to the UN agency by donors earlier this year; only $400 million has turned up. That's a shortfall of more than 70%. What can we learn from this?

For anyone familiar with the way Arab national giving works, this is a constant: fancy rhetoric and high-flying speeches about Arab solidarity and Arab unity and Arab generosity, followed by... not much. Is there a shortage of available cash in the oil-soaked Arab world? Not really. (We wrote about the phenomenon of $600 million recreational yachts a few days ago. See 10-Apr-13: "I cannot help but cry out long live the descendants of apes and pigs")

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon says that unless more money arrives (read: unless the promises of funding are honored, which so far has not happened), UNHCR is going to stop distributing food to refugees in Lebanon from May. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, with the largest population of Syrian refugees, has said it will close its borders to more of them; it cannot cope without aid.

Now pause.

Evelyn Gordon writes about a different (a very different) UN agency that deals with refugees, one that


enjoys comfortable funding of about $1 billion a year to help a very different group of refugees–refugees who generally live in permanent homes rather than flimsy tents in makeshift camps; who have never faced the trauma of flight and dislocation, having lived all their lives in the place where they were born; who often have jobs that provide an income on top of their refugee benefits; and who enjoy regular access to schooling, healthcare and all the other benefits of non-refugee life... Their generous funding continues undisturbed even as Syrian refugees are facing the imminent loss of such basics as food and fresh water. I am talking, of course, about UNRWA.

People who have never heard this before think we're making this up, so please read carefully and verify:


It has long been clear that UNRWA–which deals solely with Palestinian refugees, while UNHCR bears responsibility for all other refugees on the planet–is a major obstacle to Israeli-Palestinian peace. Since, unlike UNHCR, it grants refugee status to the original refugees' descendants in perpetuity, the number of Palestinian refugees has ballooned from under 700,000 in 1949 to over five million today, even as the world's non-Palestinian refugee population has shrunk from over 100 million to under 30 million. Moreover, while UNHCR's primary goal is to resettle refugees, UNRWA hasn't resettled a single refugee in its history... It has thereby perpetuated and exacerbated the Palestinian refugee problem to the point where it has become the single greatest obstacle to an Israeli-Palestinian agreement... Unfortunately for the Syrians, it seems that many of the world's self-proclaimed humanitarians prefer harming Israel to helping those who need it most. [Evelyn Gordon]

Last year, we asked [in a post called "5-Jun-12: If there's one single thing about UNRWA that we wish people understood, it's this"] a question that, if it were to get an honest answer, might point to a genuine breakthrough in resolving our neighbourhood's problems.


If (to borrow the laughable claims made by its many supporters) UNRWA's work is so important, if it brings us closer to peace, if it restores dignity to the lives of dispossessed and destitute Arabs, then why, when you look at the top twenty list of donors to this agency that exists entirely from donations, do you see that only one is Arab (the Islamic Development Bank). What is it about UNRWA that the Arab states understand better than the nations and tax-payers of the West?


Allow us to restate this in a simpler way:


Arab leaders, many of whom preside over phenomenal cash resources, (a)  to the strange UN agency that exists specifically to support the most beloved cause that exists in the Arab world – the Palestinians. And (b) they fail to honour their pledges (as we noted above) to fund the one organization that can do something to relieve the genuine suffering of the Syrians, tens of thousands of whom have been killed in the past two years' Arab-on-Arab fighting and millions of whom are now desperate to find shelter.

The role of rampant hypocrisy in explaining what happens in global politics is under-appreciated.

http://cifwatch.com/
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 20, 2013, 03:26:09 PM
At some point empathy was surgically removed from all zionist brains. I am sure at some point the nazis said the ukrainians needed food more than the poles did but how jews ended up speaking like that is one of the great   mysteries.  I suppose if Israelis don't care about hunger amongst their own poor it is a but much to expect them to care about anyone else.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 20, 2013, 04:12:34 PM
Beaver- if you genuinely want to.improve how Israel is perceived then you really shouldn't post links which imply that the country is a collective.of obnoxious sectarian arseholes. But maybe that is your goal.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 03:02:15 AM


Israeli police quiz IRA suspect


Israeli police are questioning a suspected Irish bombmaker in the West Bank after arresting him last night over contact with Palestinian militants, Israeli security sources said.

British and Irish newspapers had reported that a manhunt was under way for a former Irish Republican Army (IRA) bombmaker suspected of training Palestinian militants in the West Bank.

Israel has been on alert for attacks by foreigners acting on behalf of a 33-month-old Palestinian uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip since two British Muslims carried out a suicide bombing at a Tel Aviv nightclub in April, killing three people.

According to reports in Sunday newspapers, the suspect had been a member of the mainstream IRA guerrilla group, but switched allegiances to the dissident Real IRA splinter group four years ago.

Palestinian militants have largely suspended attacks against Israel as part of a truce brokered by the Palestinian leadership in order to advance a US-backed "road map" to peace. Yet some West Bank-based militant offshoots have vowed to go on fighting.

Palestinian links with Northern Ireland stretch back to the early days of the three decade conflict between Catholic republicans fighting to end British rule and Protestant loyalists committed to maintaining it.

Within Israel's security services, it is believed a West Bank sniper who killed 10 Israeli soldiers and settlers in March 2002 may have been an IRA-linked mercenary.

In hardline Catholic districts of Belfast it is common to see pro-Palestinian slogans painted on walls, while in staunchly Protestant areas Israeli flags are sometimes flown alongside British flags and loyalist paramilitary banners.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-188399/Israeli-police-quiz-IRA-suspect.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 08:58:06 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 03:02:15 AM


Israeli police quiz IRA suspect


Israeli police are questioning a suspected Irish bombmaker in the West Bank after arresting him last night over contact with Palestinian militants, Israeli security sources said.

British and Irish newspapers had reported that a manhunt was under way for a former Irish Republican Army (IRA) bombmaker suspected of training Palestinian militants in the West Bank.

Israel has been on alert for attacks by foreigners acting on behalf of a 33-month-old Palestinian uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip since two British Muslims carried out a suicide bombing at a Tel Aviv nightclub in April, killing three people.

According to reports in Sunday newspapers, the suspect had been a member of the mainstream IRA guerrilla group, but switched allegiances to the dissident Real IRA splinter group four years ago.

Palestinian militants have largely suspended attacks against Israel as part of a truce brokered by the Palestinian leadership in order to advance a US-backed "road map" to peace. Yet some West Bank-based militant offshoots have vowed to go on fighting.

Palestinian links with Northern Ireland stretch back to the early days of the three decade conflict between Catholic republicans fighting to end British rule and Protestant loyalists committed to maintaining it.

Within Israel's security services, it is believed a West Bank sniper who killed 10 Israeli soldiers and settlers in March 2002 may have been an IRA-linked mercenary.

In hardline Catholic districts of Belfast it is common to see pro-Palestinian slogans painted on walls, while in staunchly Protestant areas Israeli flags are sometimes flown alongside British flags and loyalist paramilitary banners.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-188399/Israeli-police-quiz-IRA-suspect.html
"Palestinian links with Northern Ireland stretch back to the early days of the three decade conflict between Catholic republicans fighting to end British rule and Protestant loyalists committed to maintaining it."

Like Palestine,Northern Ireland was settled by colonists with no links to the place who needed an ideology to make sense of the land grab. God and chosen people were at the centre of both ideologies which are now falling apart. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 11:52:06 AM
Should we do with the protestants what you propose to do with the jews? Shall we send them packing, or are they allowed to stay?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 11:52:06 AM
Should we do with the protestants what you propose to do with the jews? Shall we send them packing, or are they allowed to stay?
Jews should be allowed to do whatever they want subject to the parameters of democracy.
Maybe some will leave once they lose their privileges.
But Israel as is is no democracy. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 01:23:28 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-lawmaker-amend-west-bank-law-to-let-settlers-defend-property-with-live-fire.premium-1.517232

"
Israeli lawmaker: Amend West Bank law to let settlers defend property with live fire

Settlers should have the same right to defend their property under the so-called Dromi Law as Israelis who live within the Green Line, MK Orit Strock (Habayit Hayehudi‏) said Tuesday.
Instead, she charged, their rights are restricted by the Israel Defense Forces' rules of engagement.
She is therefore demanding that the rules be changed to allow settlers to confront "nationalist attacks" against Jewish property with live fire. The Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee will hold a special hearing to examine how the law is applied in the West Bank.
The Dromi Law absolves a person who shoots a burglar from criminal liability. Since it's part of the Penal Code, it should apply to Jewish residents of the West Bank as well. In practice, however, the IDF has issued stringent rules of engagement for the West Bank so as to prevent friction between Jews and Palestinians. "


Unfortunately for the settlers the West bank isn't actually part of Israel so Israeli law has no validity there.
 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 01:24:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 11:52:06 AM
Should we do with the protestants what you propose to do with the jews? Shall we send them packing, or are they allowed to stay?
Jews should be allowed to do whatever they want subject to the parameters of democracy.
Maybe some will leave once they lose their privileges.
But Israel as is is no democracy.

Then you agree that they should be allowed to live where they want, just as long as they abide by any democratic decision made by whoever governs where they live?

If Israel isn't a democracy, then what the hell is PA?  :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 01:28:16 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 01:24:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 11:52:06 AM
Should we do with the protestants what you propose to do with the jews? Shall we send them packing, or are they allowed to stay?
Jews should be allowed to do whatever they want subject to the parameters of democracy.
Maybe some will leave once they lose their privileges.
But Israel as is is no democracy.

Then you agree that they should be allowed to live where they want, just as long as they abide by any democratic decision made by whoever governs where they live?

If Israel isn't a democracy, then what the hell is PA?  :o
The PA is a county council for people living under occupation.
I don't agree that settlers have rights to anything seized post 67. It wasn't democratic.
It was a land grab.
If you want to give settlers those rights then Palestinians are entitled to everything they lost in 1948.
So are you on for it? 

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 02:01:56 PM
Palestinian Museum: 200 years of history?



Wednesday, April 24, 2013 |  Aviel Schneider   





Last week, the laying of the cornerstone of the new "Palestinian Museum" made headlines worldwide. The museum is a private initiative that aims to tell a 200-year-old Palestinian history.

Established adjacent to Birzeit University near Ramallah, the museum will be build in two stages and eventually encompass an area of almost 100,000 square feet.

Palestinian sources said a museum is one of the things every proper state needs. "I hope that the museum gives the Palestinians the opportunity to present their story to the world," said museum director Jack Persekian. While the exhibits will purportedly treat Muslims, Christians and Jews equally, the focus will be on the Palestinian Arab version of events since the end of the Ottoman period in 1917.

Presenting a history going back any more than 200 years will be difficult, as the Palestinians themselves are divided over their own past.

PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat emphasized frequently that the Palestinians are the successors of the Philistines; former Palestinian politician Abu Siad Siad told Israel Today that they are the descendants of the Canaanites; several years ago, the spiritual leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel, Khamal Khatib, told Israeli radio that the Palestinians are from the line of the Jebusites.

Perhaps most honestly, former Arab member of Israel's Knesset, Azmi Bishara said on Israeli television years back that there never was a Palestinian people, but only a wider Arab nation. Bishara has since had to flee Israel after collaborating with Hezbollah, but his remarks on the origin of the "Palestinians" can be seen in the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U1KkYjhFryA

Palestinians on the streets have told us repeatedly in private conversations that they are followers of various Arab tribes from Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries in North Africa.

Nevertheless, Israeli President Shimon Peres said years ago that "even if there is no historic Palestinian people, there exists a de facto Palestinian people today with whom Israel must negotiate."

Even so, a museum is not going to be able to change the past and rewrite (or, rather, invent) the history of a people.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23809/Default.aspx?topic=article_title

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 02:19:59 PM
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=8813



US: It's time for UN's Richard Falk to go  

U.N.'s Human Rights Council special rapporteur for the Palestinians Richard Falk blames American policy in the Middle East for the Boston bombings, and warns that "as long as Tel Aviv has the compliant ear of the American political establishment, those who wish for peace and justice in the world should not rest easy."

Reuters and Israel Hayom Staff


U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice on Wednesday said that it was "past time" for the U.N.'s Human Rights Council special rapporteur for the Palestinians to be relieved of his position.


On her twitter account, Rice said, "Outraged by Richard Falk's highly offensive Boston comments. Someone who spews such vitriol has no place at the U.N. Past time for him to go."


The American Jewish Committee also denounced Falk, a U.N. official, for asserting in an online essay that U.S. and Israeli policies were responsible for the Boston Marathon terrorist bombings. U.N. Watch first reported on Falk's comments.


Falk, a special rapporteur with the U.N. Human Rights Council, was reprimanded two years ago by U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon for promoting 9/11 conspiracy theories, alleging that the U.S. had a role.


"Here he goes again," said AJC Executive Director David Harris. "Given his public record, the question is why Richard Falk still occupies a U.N. position. Is there no shame?"


In his essay, "A Commentary on the Marathon Murders," published April 21 in Foreign Policy Journal, Falk warned that "the United States has been fortunate not to experience worse blowbacks, and these may yet happen, especially if there is no disposition to rethink U.S. relations to others in the world, starting with the Middle East."


Falk also warned that "as long as Tel Aviv has the compliant ear of the American political establishment, those who wish for peace and justice in the world should not rest easy."


Erin Pelton, United States Mission to the United Nations spokesperson, said "The United States completely rejects the provocative and offensive commentary by Mr. Richard Falk, U.N. Special Rapporteur for the Palestinian Territories, regarding the recent terrorist attack in Boston, Massachusetts. The United States has previously called for Mr. Falk's resignation for his numerous outrageous statements, and these comments underscore once more the absurdity of his service as a U.N. Special Rapporteur."


"Falk's unhinged diatribes against the U.S. and Israel are well-known," Harris added. "He should have been barred, five years ago, from being appointed the Human Rights Council's special rapporteur on the Palestinians, but this reveals precisely what is wrong with the U.N. system."


"Falk's latest commentary demonstrates his total insensitivity to the victims of the terror attacks in Boston," Harris continued. "His malicious propaganda regarding the U.S. and Israel -- and his glaring inability to see the stark truth about extremist violence and terrorism -- has no place in any international body that takes itself and its mission seriously."


B'nai B'rith International called for Falk's removal from the Human Rights Council, saying that his "latest string of inflammatory remarks -- whether it be on the Internet or in one of his 'reports' to the council -- has no place in the United Nations and his continued presence at the UNHRC further undermines the credibility of the system."


Hillel Neuer, executive director of U.N. Watch, sent a letter to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice, calling on them to condemn Falk's "odious and preposterous" remarks.


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 02:58:09 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 02:01:56 PM
Palestinian Museum: 200 years of history?



Wednesday, April 24, 2013 |  Aviel Schneider   





Last week, the laying of the cornerstone of the new "Palestinian Museum" made headlines worldwide. The museum is a private initiative that aims to tell a 200-year-old Palestinian history.

Established adjacent to Birzeit University near Ramallah, the museum will be build in two stages and eventually encompass an area of almost 100,000 square feet.

Palestinian sources said a museum is one of the things every proper state needs. "I hope that the museum gives the Palestinians the opportunity to present their story to the world," said museum director Jack Persekian. While the exhibits will purportedly treat Muslims, Christians and Jews equally, the focus will be on the Palestinian Arab version of events since the end of the Ottoman period in 1917.

Presenting a history going back any more than 200 years will be difficult, as the Palestinians themselves are divided over their own past.

PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat emphasized frequently that the Palestinians are the successors of the Philistines; former Palestinian politician Abu Siad Siad told Israel Today that they are the descendants of the Canaanites; several years ago, the spiritual leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel, Khamal Khatib, told Israeli radio that the Palestinians are from the line of the Jebusites.

Perhaps most honestly, former Arab member of Israel's Knesset, Azmi Bishara said on Israeli television years back that there never was a Palestinian people, but only a wider Arab nation. Bishara has since had to flee Israel after collaborating with Hezbollah, but his remarks on the origin of the "Palestinians" can be seen in the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U1KkYjhFryA

Palestinians on the streets have told us repeatedly in private conversations that they are followers of various Arab tribes from Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries in North Africa.

Nevertheless, Israeli President Shimon Peres said years ago that "even if there is no historic Palestinian people, there exists a de facto Palestinian people today with whom Israel must negotiate."

Even so, a museum is not going to be able to change the past and rewrite (or, rather, invent) the history of a people.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23809/Default.aspx?topic=article_title

You do Israel a great disservice with such horseshit, Beaver.
I suppose the Catholics in Tyrone are all descendants of people from Cavan who moved up in 1921 as well, are they?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 03:05:15 PM
Attacks on Israeli civilians by Palestinians





Rocket and mortar fire into Israel.




Published:
1 Jan 2011

Updated:
17 Apr 2013

Rocket and mortar fire as a war crime

Palestinian organizations that fire rockets and mortar shells into Israel openly declare that they intend to strike Israeli civilians, among other targets. Aiming attacks at civilians is both immoral and illegal, and the intentional killing of civilians is defined a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention and a war crime that cannot be justified, under any circumstance. Furthermore, the rockets and mortar shells are illegal weapons, even when aimed at military objects, as they are greatly imprecise and endanger civilians present both in the area from which they are fired and where they land, thus violating two fundamental principles of the laws of war: distinction and proportionality.

In a significant number of cases, Palestinians have fired the rockets and mortar shells from civilian residential areas. International humanitarian law (IHL) prohibits attacks from inside or near the homes of civilians, and using civilians as human shields. Palestinian organizations that choose to carry out attacks against communities in Israel from within or near populated areas breach this rule, and in doing so, demonstrate not only their intention to harm Israeli civilians, but also indifference to the lives of Palestinian civilians.

The Hamas government in the Gaza Strip must do everything in its power to stop the rocket and mortar fire, and the Palestinian organizations must cease attacks aimed at civilians, in particular when they are carried out from populated Palestinian areas. The government is responsible for the breaches of international humanitarian law, due to its failure to take sufficient action to stop the firing from areas close to civilian homes, and even more so, as it actively takes part in these attacks. The persons involved in these breaches are guilty of war crimes and bear individual criminal responsibility for their acts.


An Israeli police officer extinguishes a burning car after a Qassam rocket attack in Sderot. Photo: Amir Cohen, Reuters, 19 May 2007.

Data

B'Tselem's research indicates that, from June 2004 to 17 April 2013, 24 Israeli civilians (four of them minors) and one foreign national were killed in Israel by Palestinian rocket and mortar fire. In addition, five soldiers were killed, three in Israel and two in the Gaza Strip. Another Israeli civilian and three foreign nationals were killed by rocket fire at settlements in the Gaza Strip, before they were evacuated. Palestinian rocket fire also killed at least ten Palestinians (seven of them minors).One Israeli civilian (a minor inIsrael) and one soldier (in the Gaza Strip) were killed by an anti-tank missile fire.

A total of 44 persons have been killed by rocket and mortar fire, and two persons have been killed by anti-tank missiles.

According to the Israel Security Agency reports, in 2013 (until 31 March 2013), Palestinian organizations fired 15  rockets from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel, compared with 2,157 rockets and 175 mortar shells that were fired in all of 2012 (most of them during operation "Pillar of Defense"). For multi-year details  (Data source: ISA website):

http://www.btselem.org/israeli_civilians/qassam_missiles
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 03:22:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 02:58:09 PM

You do Israel a great disservice with such horseshit, Beaver.
I suppose the Catholics in Tyrone are all descendants of people from Cavan who moved up in 1921 as well, are they?
If you would take the time to read the article and watch the link you would understand that it is only the name "palestinian" that is wrong. The name "palestinian" was only conjured up to give a national identity to the arabs living in the region after Israeli independence. There has never ever been a nation called palestine up until now.

Quote

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country as Palestine! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."  The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations echoed this view in a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947, which said Palestine was part of the Province of Syria and the Arabs of Palestine did not comprise a separate political entity. A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 03:33:52 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on April 24, 2013, 03:22:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 02:58:09 PM

You do Israel a great disservice with such horseshit, Beaver.
I suppose the Catholics in Tyrone are all descendants of people from Cavan who moved up in 1921 as well, are they?
If you would take the time to read the article and watch the link you would understand that it is only the name "palestinian" that is wrong. The name "palestinian" was only conjured up to give a national identity to the arabs living in the region after Israeli independence. There has never ever been a nation called palestine up until now.

Quote

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country as Palestine! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."  The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations echoed this view in a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947, which said Palestine was part of the Province of Syria and the Arabs of Palestine did not comprise a separate political entity. A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html


Your own links

Palestinians on the streets have told us repeatedly in private conversations that they are followers of various Arab tribes from Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries in North Africa.
Nevertheless, Israeli President Shimon Peres said years ago that "even if there is no historic Palestinian people, there exists a de facto Palestinian people today with whom Israel must negotiate."

Same as saying Nordies are not entitled to live in the Wee Six.

As for this

The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

The Polish Jews didn't live in Palestine.
Say I go to Guatemala and buy a farm and improve it, does the country belong to me ?

God promised the land, did he? Prove it.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 03:38:03 PM
If you would take the time to read the article and watch the link you would understand that it is only the name "palestinian" that is wrong. The name "palestinian" was only conjured up to give a national identity to the arabs living in the region after Israeli independence. There has never ever been a nation called palestine up until now.

Read your own links. that is not what you posted.
and the argument of yours is simply incoherent. The name "Slovenian" was conjured up to give a national identity to the Slavs living around the Julian alps. There has never been a country called slovenia until now. Does that land also belong to the Zionists?   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on April 24, 2013, 04:14:54 PM
Beaver

Thanks for the
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html
link. It should keep me going for a few months


In 1917, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration:

His Majesty's Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country
.

How did that work out? did Balfour grant the Jewish people the right to run Gaza as a concentration camp?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 01, 2013, 01:39:07 PM
 
Arab League sweetens Israel-Palestinian peace plan


Arab League announcement puts Netanyahu in bind, possibly straining both internal coalition tensions, external pressure, as both local, international figures laud announcement

Associated Press Published:  05.01.13, 00:13 / Israel News 
 

The Arab League's decision to sweeten its decade-old proposal offering comprehensive peace with Israel has placed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in a bind and swiftly exposed fissures in his new government.

In Washington Monday, Qatari Prime Minister Sheik Hamad Bin Jassem Al Thani tried to allay some of the Israeli concerns. Speaking on behalf of an Arab League delegation, he reiterated the need to base an agreement between Israel and a future Palestine on the 1967 lines, but for the first time, he cited the possibility of "comparable," mutually agreed and "minor" land swaps between the Israelis and the Palestinians.




Sheik Hamad spoke after talks with Vice President Joe Biden and US Secretary of State John Kerry, who has been pushing Arab leaders to embrace a modified version of the Arab peace plan as part of a new US-led effort to corral Israel and the Palestinians back into direct peace talks. The changes are meant to win Israeli support by allowing it to keep parts of the West Bank and east Jerusalem as part of an agreement.



In Washington, Kerry called the changed language a "very big step forward."


"This is literally a statement by the Arab world that they're prepared to make peace, providing the Palestinians and Israelis reach a final status agreement," he told reporters Tuesday at the State Department after meeting Spain's foreign minister.

"I don't underestimate the significance of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Arab Emirates, the Egyptians, the Jordanians and others coming to the table and saying, `We are prepared to make peace now in 2013,'" he said. Still, he said much more was left to do.

"We have a lot of homework to do, a lot of tough hurdles to get over, but each step forward is the way you get there," Kerry said.

The gesture immediately put Netanyahu in a difficult position. A cool reception to the Arab League could reinforce the international perception that Netanyahu is not serious about pursuing peace.

But forces in Israel could doom the plan before it ever gets off the ground. Netanyahu himself has repeatedly said the 1967 frontiers would put Israel's security in danger and said he is not bound by any concessions made by his predecessors. In addition, the hard-liners who dominate his coalition would resist the concessions required by the Arab plan.


Netanyahu's office declined requests for comment Tuesday. But Cabinet minister Silvan Shalom, a senior Likud member, played down the Arab League's decision, saying, "there is nothing new here."

"In principle, I support renewing the process. Of course, I don't accept the 1967 lines," he told Israel Radio. "If the Arab League wants to be a partner to this process, then we welcome it, but this is not negotiations."
At the same time, the more dovish members of his coalition are likely to press Netanyahu to embrace the latest Arab approach.

Dovish partners
Livni, while acknowledging that Israel had concerns about some of the details of the Arab initiative, said Israel must nonetheless respond positively. "It's good news that should be welcomed," she said in a Facebook post.
She noted that the plan gave the Palestinians important backing from the broader Arab world to make small concessions on the border issue, while it sent an important message to Israel that peace with the Palestinians means peace with the entire Arab world. "I hope that the message that comes from Qatar will help launch the negotiations as soon as possible."

Yesh Atid chairman Yair Lapid has said he would demand the government conduct a "serious" peace process with the Palestinians. He has also endorsed the concept of land swaps so that Israel can keep certain Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Dov Lipman, a Yesh Atid lawmaker, said the party had not yet formulated a formal response to the Arab initiative, but said it was "very consistent" with the party's platform. "We need to be negotiating. It's the only way to solve the conflict," he said.

And President Shimon Peres, a Nobel peace laureate, said the Arabs' decision provided a new chance to restart peace talks.

"The ministers of the Arab League once again expressed their support for the two state solution, which is also accepted by us and a broad structure of support is being created for making progress," he said during a meeting with Pope Francis at the Vatican.

Members of the opposition Labor Party urged Netanyahu to accept the Arab initiative.
Opposition Chairwoman MK Shelly Yachimovich, the Labor party chairwomen, demanded that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu officially and positively respond to the Arab League's announcement. "This is an important step taken by the Arab world, and there is a chance it will be ground breaking," Yachimovich said

"I think the Israeli government should embrace it with both hands," said Erel Margalit, a Labor lawmaker. "This is the breakthrough we have been looking for." 
Margalit said he was in the process of forming a parliamentary lobby to support the initiative, and said Labor would support Netanyahu from the opposition if he embraced the plan.


While the Palestinians voiced objections to modifying the Arab League plan, their chief negotiator, Saeb Erekat, said Tuesday that the Palestinians supported the new proposal.
"Israeli rejection of this initiative shows once again that the Israeli government lacks of a peace plan," he said in a statement. "Rather, it is fully engaged in further colonization and attacks against Palestinian rights and regional stability." 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4374522,00.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 02, 2013, 05:48:12 PM

Pallywood Light: Guardian video claiming to show 'Jews attacking Palestinians' fails to deliver


Following the murder of an Israeli man, 32-year-old Evyatar Borovsky, by a Palestinian terrorist in a stabbing attack at a bus stop in the northern West Bank on Tuesday, the Guardian's Harriet Sherwood reported on the incident, as well as on subsequent retaliatory attacks by "Jewish settlers". 

The Jewish 'attacks' evidently occurred near the Yitzhar community where Borovsky lived, as well as in the Palestinian villages of Burin, Hawara, and Orif – and a nearby highway (route 60). According to multiple reports, some Israelis threw rocks at Palestinians and some set Palestinian fields ablaze.

The claim that there were some retaliatory attacks by Jews following Borovsky's murder doesn't appear to be in doubt.

However, the Guardian also published a video story on May 1, with the following title:



Here's the video caption:


A group of masked Jewish settlers set fire to a house and fields across villages in the West Bank before attacking Palestinians. Palestinian villagers clash with the settlers on a hill overlooking the village of Orif. Israeli soldiers arrive to disperse the crowd with stun grenades. The attack was in retaliation to the killing of Israeli settler Eviatar [sic] Borovsky

However, upon viewing the one minute and six second Guardian video, we couldn't help but notice the absence of any clips actually showing 'Jewish settlers attacking Palestinians', despite text on the bottom of the screen at various moments stating that such attacks were taking place.

Here's the video in its entirety.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JGw56F0bTx4


Here's what we just saw:
■Israeli soldiers on patrol
■Israeli soldiers talking to what appear to be Palestinians
■Tear gas and stun grenades are employed by Israeli forces
■A Palestinian man (at the 54 second mark), purportedly injured, being carried to an awaiting ambulance

Here's what we did not see, despite claims made in the title and accompanying text:
■Jewish settlers attacking Palestinians
■Jewish settlers burning Palestinian fields

Whilst the events described by the Guardian may have indeed occurred, the video they produced and posted certainly did not present any visual evidence to buttress these claims. 

Though there have been far more egregious examples of 'Pallywood' in action (i.e., intentionally misleading or doctored Palestinian film footage; and the staging of certain scenes) it is reasonable to ask why the Guardian editor who published this video failed to engage in basic journalistic critical scrutiny of what the clips were claiming to document.


http://cifwatch.com/
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 02, 2013, 10:52:34 PM
Jewish settlers are white trash. If you want to live in the West Bank, why do you need an army? and why not pay the farmers whose land you live on?

Had to laugh at yesterday's Irish times. Israel carried out a pinpoint assassination in which several bystanders were injured. How does that work?

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 07, 2013, 07:14:41 PM
Hamas says no peace with Israel under any terms




Monday, May 06, 2013 |  Ryan Jones   


While the American administration gets all excited over the Arab League making passing mention of its previous regional peace proposal, Western power-brokers are completely ignoring the fact that Palestinian powerhouse Hamas rejects the idea of peace with Israel under any circumstances.

After Qatari Prime Minister Hamad Bin Jassem Al Thani commented last week that the Arab League would be willing to accept minor territorial compromise as part of an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal, US Secretary of State John Kerry got to work pressing Israel to accept the proposal.

As Israel feared, all it took was a gentle nudge and the slightest hint of successfully overseeing a peace deal to get Washington drooling, even if the hopes couldn't possibly match reality.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tried to warn his American friends that while his government remains ready to make territorial compromise, the root of the conflict isn't about borders, but about Israel's very existence.

Hamas was so kind as to make Netanyahu's point for him.

In an interview with Al Jazeera, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal stated that his group's goal remains the "liberation of the Palestinian territories," which Hamas views as encompassing the entirety of the State of Israel.

Mashaal said the Arab League proposal would harm the true Palestinian end goal by helping to integrate Israel into the region.

Unfortunately, Western leaders didn't seem to be listening. Many in Israel continue to argue that it doesn't matter if a reasonable agreement can be reached with the Arab League and Palestinian Authority if groups like Hamas continue to run the show on the ground. Until all of the Palestinian Arabs actually want peace with Israel, it simply isn't going to happen.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23831/Default.aspx?hp=article_title
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 07, 2013, 07:18:32 PM
Peace Now: PM halting new settlement construction


According to anti-settlement group, Netanyahu's halting of West Bank construction could be attempt to clear way for renewed peace talks with Palestinians

Associated Press Published:  05.07.13, 21:05 / Israel News 


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has stopped approving new construction in West Bank settlements, two prominent Israeli activist groups said Tuesday, in what could be an attempt to clear the way for renewed peace talks with the Palestinians.

Anti-settlement group Peace Now, which monitors all new Israeli settlement construction, said Netanyahu has not approved new tenders or announcements of new building plans in the settlements since he won a new term in January's election. 

"It seems that Netanyahu took it upon himself to follow a policy of restraint," Peace Now said in a statement. It said Netanyahu was likely trying to avoid colliding with the US at a time when US Secretary of State John Kerry is attempting to restart peace negotiations.

The group said it did not know how long the freeze on new settlement building would hold, and noted that previously started settlement building is proceeding.

The Yesha settlers council, which promotes settlement construction, also claimed a freeze was in place.

Yigal Dilmoni, a Yesha official, said Netanyahu's office confirmed to him that the prime minister has stopped approving housing tenders.

"This does not help anything, and it is discriminatory," Dilmoni said. "We are severely against this."
Peace talks broke down in 2008 and have remained stalled in large part because of Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. The Palestinians have insisted that Israel halt settlement construction before peace talks to resume. Israel says the talks should take place without preconditions.

Following President Obama's visit to the region in March, Kerry has been shuttling between the two sides to try to break the deadlock.

Last week, after some prodding by Kerry, Arab leaders renewed a decade-old comprehensive peace offer, with softer language to appeal to Israel, to help restart talks. Israel has not responded to the offer. Kerry is scheduled to meet with Israeli and Palestinian representatives in Rome this week.
Last September, the Palestinians won upgraded status at the United Nations. Netanyahu responded by announcing plans to build hundreds of new homes in settlements. But those plans never moved forward.

Israeli Housing Minister Uri Ariel, a pro-settler hard-liner, met with Netanyahu recently. He asked Netanyahu to push forward the housing tenders, but Netanyahu refused, Dilmoni claimed.

The minister refused to comment on the reported settlement freeze in an Army Radio interview on Tuesday.
"I do not confirm things that I do with the Prime Minister. Therefore I cannot comment on this," Ariel said.
Netanyahu's office declined to comment.

Nabil Abu Rdeneh, spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said the U.S. is exerting efforts to "create the needed atmosphere" for new talks, but that he was unaware of any Israeli construction freeze.

"We should hear this officially from the Israeli government," he said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4377417,00.html

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 07, 2013, 09:32:41 PM
Dying to hear the resident ziobot thinking on israeli pre emptive war and international law .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on May 09, 2013, 01:58:42 AM

Fantastic news today as Professor Stephen Hawkins has pulled out of an event in Israel in support of the academic boycott of the apartheid state. This is a massive boost to the boycott movement, and lays down a marker to others considering going there.



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/08/a-brief-history-of-stephen-hawking-s-boycott.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 09, 2013, 07:33:49 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 09, 2013, 01:58:42 AM

Fantastic news today as Professor Stephen Hawkins has pulled out of an event in Israel in support of the academic boycott of the apartheid state. This is a massive boost to the boycott movement, and lays down a marker to others considering going there.



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/08/a-brief-history-of-stephen-hawking-s-boycott.html
Some vile slurs against the prof from Israel's so called friends online. Mocking his condition is not really kosher. But what would you expect from the hebrew beavers?

Israel's liberals are trina cheile. They don't know how to react.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on May 09, 2013, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 09, 2013, 07:33:49 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 09, 2013, 01:58:42 AM

Fantastic news today as Professor Stephen Hawkins has pulled out of an event in Israel in support of the academic boycott of the apartheid state. This is a massive boost to the boycott movement, and lays down a marker to others considering going there.



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/08/a-brief-history-of-stephen-hawking-s-boycott.html
Some vile slurs against the prof from Israel's so called friends online. Mocking his condition is not really kosher. But what would you expect from the hebrew beavers?

Israel's liberals are trina cheile. They don't know how to react.



I had to stop reading the comments as they are beyond sick. Plus the fact that Stephen Hawkings has Motor Neurone Disease, the same illness my father died from made the comments even harder to read.

I am sure the same people who left these comments are the 1st to scream anti semitism at the very mention of criticism of Israel.

This is a good article outlining 5 reasons why Hawkings is right to boycott Israel
http://m.aljazeera.com/story/20135953058699815
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 10, 2013, 04:53:42 PM

Pro-Palestinian or Anti-Israel?


by Khaled Abu Toameh
April 26, 2012 at 5:00 am


It would also help immensely of these activists came to the West Bank and Gaza Strip to offer advice on, and help in building, proper government institutions, and in combatting administrative and financial corruption. But as far as many of the pro-Palestinian activists in the West Bank and Gaze are concerned, the interests of the Palestinians are not as important as hating Israel.

Pro-Palestinian groups and individuals in the US and Europe are doing Palestinians injustice by devoting all their energies only against Israel.

There is a feeling in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that most of these groups and individuals are more interested in campaigning against Israel than helping the Palestinians.

Being pro-Palestinian does not necessarily mean that one also has to be anti-Israel.

The pro-Palestinian camp in the West should raise its voice against violations of human rights and media freedoms under the Palestinian Authority and Hamas.

In the past few weeks, six Palestinian journalists, bloggers and cartoonists were arrested by security forces belonging to the Palestinian government in the West Bank.

The pro-Palestinian activists around the world chose to turn a blind eye to the ongoing crackdown on freedom of expression in the West Bank.

They also failed --- even refused -- to condemn the Palestinian Authority government's decision to block web sites that are critical of Palestinian leaders in the West Bank.

The pro-Palestinian activists in the West also refuse to examine what is happening under Hamas in the Gaza Strip. They apparently do not care, or do not want to see, that there are executions, arbitrary arrests, and assaults against women and torture in Hamas prisons.

The pro-Palestinian activists and organizations also do not seem to care if the Palestinian Authority and Hamas are brainwashing Palestinian children and filling their minds and hearts with hatred.

Those who care about the Palestinians should come to the Gaza Strip and work toward promoting human rights under Hamas -- of children, women, and journalists.

It would help immensely if hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists came to the West Bank and Gaza Strip to teach Palestinian children English and expose them to the benefits of democracy and Western values, such as equal justice under law, free speech and a free press, and financial transparency and accountability

It would also help immensely if these activists came to the West Bank and Gaza Strip to offer advice on, and help in building, proper government institutions, and in combatting administrative and financial corruption.

But as far as many of the pro-Palestinian activists in the West are concerned, the interests of the Palestinians are not as important as hating Israel.

Anti-Israel messages and campaigns serve only the radicals in this region who do not want either peace or coexistence.

The time has come for the emergence of a genuine pro-Palestinian camp in the West that would focus less on Israel and more on helping the Palestinians.


http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3035/pro-palestinian-anti-israel


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2013, 10:33:41 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 10, 2013, 04:53:42 PM

Pro-Palestinian or Anti-Israel?


by Khaled Abu Toameh
April 26, 2012 at 5:00 am


It would also help immensely of these activists came to the West Bank and Gaza Strip to offer advice on, and help in building, proper government institutions, and in combatting administrative and financial corruption. But as far as many of the pro-Palestinian activists in the West Bank and Gaze are concerned, the interests of the Palestinians are not as important as hating Israel.

Pro-Palestinian groups and individuals in the US and Europe are doing Palestinians injustice by devoting all their energies only against Israel.

There is a feeling in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that most of these groups and individuals are more interested in campaigning against Israel than helping the Palestinians.

Being pro-Palestinian does not necessarily mean that one also has to be anti-Israel.

The pro-Palestinian camp in the West should raise its voice against violations of human rights and media freedoms under the Palestinian Authority and Hamas.

In the past few weeks, six Palestinian journalists, bloggers and cartoonists were arrested by security forces belonging to the Palestinian government in the West Bank.

The pro-Palestinian activists around the world chose to turn a blind eye to the ongoing crackdown on freedom of expression in the West Bank.

They also failed --- even refused -- to condemn the Palestinian Authority government's decision to block web sites that are critical of Palestinian leaders in the West Bank.

The pro-Palestinian activists in the West also refuse to examine what is happening under Hamas in the Gaza Strip. They apparently do not care, or do not want to see, that there are executions, arbitrary arrests, and assaults against women and torture in Hamas prisons.

The pro-Palestinian activists and organizations also do not seem to care if the Palestinian Authority and Hamas are brainwashing Palestinian children and filling their minds and hearts with hatred.

Those who care about the Palestinians should come to the Gaza Strip and work toward promoting human rights under Hamas -- of children, women, and journalists.

It would help immensely if hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists came to the West Bank and Gaza Strip to teach Palestinian children English and expose them to the benefits of democracy and Western values, such as equal justice under law, free speech and a free press, and financial transparency and accountability

It would also help immensely if these activists came to the West Bank and Gaza Strip to offer advice on, and help in building, proper government institutions, and in combatting administrative and financial corruption.

But as far as many of the pro-Palestinian activists in the West are concerned, the interests of the Palestinians are not as important as hating Israel.

Anti-Israel messages and campaigns serve only the radicals in this region who do not want either peace or coexistence.

The time has come for the emergence of a genuine pro-Palestinian camp in the West that would focus less on Israel and more on helping the Palestinians.


http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3035/pro-palestinian-anti-israel
Pro justice. Zionism is an abomination. What is the point of praying in Israel when Jews are torturing palestinians?

Is God supposed to approve? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2013, 10:40:16 AM
The notion that pro human rights is antisemitic is totally fucked up.

Israel could be a wonderful country. There are so many talented people there.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on May 11, 2013, 11:48:52 AM
Noam Chomsky helped lobby Stephen Hawking to stage Israel boycott

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/10/noam-chomsky-stephen-hawking-israel-boycott

Noam Chomsky was among 20 academics who privately lobbied Professor Stephen Hawking to boycott a major Israeli conference, it has emerged.

Chomsky, a US professor and well-known supporter of the Palestinian cause, joined British academics from the universities of Cambridge, London, Leeds, Southampton, Warwick, Newcastle, York and the Open University to tell Hawking they were "surprised and deeply disappointed" that he had accepted the invitation to speak at next month's presidential conference in Jerusalem, which will chaired by Shimon Peres and attended by Tony Blair and Bill Clinton.

Hawking pulled out this week in protest at Israel's treatment of Palestinians, in the wake of receiving the letter and soundings from Palestinian colleagues. The 71-year-old theoretical physicist's decision has been warmly welcomed by Palestinian academics, with one describing it as "of cosmic proportions", but was attacked in Israel.

On Friday the liberal academic David Newman, dean of the faculty of humanities and social sciences at Ben Gurion University in Israel, warned that an academic boycott "just destroys one of the very few spaces left where Israelis and Palestinians actually do come together".

Chomsky, who has backed "boycott and divestment of firms that are carrying out operations in the occupied territories", agreed to add his considerable weight to the pressure on Hawking after email correspondence with the British Committee for the Universities of Palestine campaign group (Bricup), said its chair, Jonathan Rosenhead.

The letter to Hawking declared: "Israel systematically discriminates against the Palestinians who make up 20% of its population in ways that would be illegal in Britain", its treatment of the people of Gaza amounts to "collective punishment", the construction of Jewish settlements breaches the Geneva convention and "Israel places multiple roadblocks, physical, financial and legal, in the way of higher education, both for its own Palestinian citizens and those under occupation".

The letter continued: "Israel has a name for the promotion of its cultural and scientific standing: 'Brand Israel'. This is a deliberate policy of camouflaging its oppressive acts behind a cultured veneer."

Professor Malcolm Levitt, a fellow of the Royal Society and an expert in magnetic resonance at Southampton University, who signed the letter, said: "Israel has a totally explicit policy of making life impossible for the non-Jewish population and I find it totally unacceptable. As a scientist, the tool I have available to prevent the normalisation of that situation is boycott. It is a tough choice because Israel is full of brilliant scientists and they are our colleagues."

Bricup is now to call on Lord Skidelsky, a leading economic historian, to refuse his invitation to speak at the conference. Skidelsky, emeritus professor of political economy at the University of Warwick and a Tory peer, declined to comment and is understood to still be planning to attend.

News of Chomsky's role in what has been considered the coup of Hawking's decision for the movement came amid growing signs in UK academia of interest in supporting boycotts of Israel. At its annual congress beginning on 29 May, the University and College Union will urge its 120,000 members to consider rethinking links with Israeli academic institutions. Teachers and lecturers will be asked to "consider the appropriateness of Israeli institutional associations", according to a draft motion.

"It is brave of Hawking for the straightforward reason that someone who has his prominence will be targeted for vilification," said Tom Hickey, a member of the UCU's executive committee who put forward the draft motion. "If he can do that then all of us should think of doing it. This isn't about targeting Israeli scholars but targeting the institutions."

Pro-boycott academics believe action by scientists is particularly effective in opposing Israel's treatment of Palestinians because the country's strength in science and technology is a key driver of the economy, and they claim the research capabilities of Israeli academic institutions have been deployed in support of advanced programmes such as the development of drone aircraft.

On Friday the fallout from Hawking's decision continued to be felt. "It is one of the starkest indicators yet that the tide is changing in the western mainstream against Israel's occupation, colonisation and apartheid, and that the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement is fast reaching its South Africa moment of maturity and impact," said Omar Barghouti, a Palestinian human rights activist and founding member of the BDS.

Others warned it would damage Israeli-Palestinian relations. "There are certain areas that are above political boycotts whatever your political positions are," said Newman. "Scientific co-operation is one of those particularly when you think of the wider benefits of science on the whole. In this context, universities are among the few spaces in Israel-Palestine where, even in these difficult times, there is some sort of dialogue and co-operation."

The British author Ian McEwan, who was criticised two years ago when he visited Israel to accept the Jerusalem Prize, said: "My feeling [in 2011] was that I wished to engage with the best elements of Israeli society and I don't want to isolate those people," he said.

He said there were dozens of countries "whose governments we might loathe or disapprove of" but "Israel-Palestine has become sort of tribal and a touchstone for a certain portion of the intellectual classes. I say this in the context of thinking it is profoundly wrong of the Israeli government not to be pursuing more actively and positively and creatively a solution with the Palestinians. That's why I think one wants to go to these places to make the point. Turning away will not produce any result."

Samia Botmeh, director of the centre for development studies at Birzeit University in the West Bank, and a member of the Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel's steering committee, said Hawking's decision had significantly boosted the boycott movement locally and internationally, but denied there had been a "huge, orchestrated campaign" to persuade him. "It will be easier now for other academics who have been supportive of Palestinian rights but were reluctant to act on their support," she said.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 11, 2013, 12:28:34 PM
Noam Chomsky   ;D



Nuff said!

*edit*

This is the same person who referred to the break up of Yugoslavia as a "successful social revolution." Did he not hear about the mass murder and genocide?

The same person who called the PLO "heroes" in Lebanon, even though for years the PLO raped, tortured, and murdered innocent civilians in Lebanon before the 1982 Lebanon War. Estimates put the death toll of civilians at the hands of the PLO at 100,000, with 250,000 wounded.

Chomsky  ;D ;D ;D        :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2013, 02:39:07 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 11, 2013, 12:28:34 PM
Noam Chomsky   ;D



Nuff said!

*edit*

This is the same person who referred to the break up of Yugoslavia as a "successful social revolution." Did he not hear about the mass murder and genocide?

The same person who called the PLO "heroes" in Lebanon, even though for years the PLO raped, tortured, and murdered innocent civilians in Lebanon before the 1982 Lebanon War. Estimates put the death toll of civilians at the hands of the PLO at 100,000, with 250,000 wounded.

Chomsky  ;D ;D ;D        :o

Play the ball, beaver

What part of the following is incorrect

The letter to Hawking declared: "Israel systematically discriminates against the Palestinians who make up 20% of its population in ways that would be illegal in Britain", its treatment of the people of Gaza amounts to "collective punishment", the construction of Jewish settlements breaches the Geneva convention and "Israel places multiple roadblocks, physical, financial and legal, in the way of higher education, both for its own Palestinian citizens and those under occupation".

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 11, 2013, 02:52:23 PM
Are you for real? The Hamas poster boy's post was all about how the man was partially responsible for Hawking's decision, so it is entirely appropriate that I counter that with my own about the warped thinking of Noam (stop giggling at the back) Chomsky. When someone is used as a character witness, expect their own views to be brought into question.

I see you don't dispute the facts of my argument.



Noam Chomsky  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 11, 2013, 06:17:35 PM
One of the worlds most intelligent men sees through Israel and all you can blather about is who (among others no doubt) lobbied him. Do you think Hawkins is a fool?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2013, 09:42:07 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 11, 2013, 02:52:23 PM
Are you for real? The Hamas poster boy's post was all about how the man was partially responsible for Hawking's decision, so it is entirely appropriate that I counter that with my own about the warped thinking of Noam (stop giggling at the back) Chomsky. When someone is used as a character witness, expect their own views to be brought into question.

I see you don't dispute the facts of my argument.



Noam Chomsky  ;D
I don't read much of your stuff at this stage. It seems to come mostly from Arutz 7.
Israel is losing support all over Europe. It seems very few goys understand that supporting justice for the Palestinian people is actually antisemitic. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 12, 2013, 04:50:38 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 11, 2013, 06:17:35 PM
One of the worlds most intelligent men sees through Israel and all you can blather about is who (among others no doubt) lobbied him. Do you think Hawkins is a fool?

I'm not the one trumpeting Chomsky as some sort of moral beacon, advising scholars such as Hawking. I would give professor Hawking more credit than to have to rely on idiots like Noam Chomsky for advice.


Quote"I accepted the invitation to the Presidential Conference with the intention that this would not only allow me to express my opinion on the prospects for a Peace Settlement but also because it would allow me to lecture on the West Bank," wrote Hawking. "However, I have received a number of emails from Palestinian academics. They are unanimous that I should respect the boycott. In view of this, I must withdraw from the conference. Had I attended, I would have stated my opinion that the policy of the present Israeli government is likely to lead to disaster."

Far from "seeing through Israel," this reads like he wanted to go, but was pressurised into not going by palestinians who are active in the BDS campaign. He says that he wanted to give his views on the prospects for peace, and wanted to say that he disagreed with Israeli government policy, but now his views may never be heard because of the pressure from the BDS movement.  Even the smartest brains are sometimes forced to do things they didn't wish to do  as the easier option.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2013, 07:57:35 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 12, 2013, 04:50:38 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 11, 2013, 06:17:35 PM
One of the worlds most intelligent men sees through Israel and all you can blather about is who (among others no doubt) lobbied him. Do you think Hawkins is a fool?

I'm not the one trumpeting Chomsky as some sort of moral beacon, advising scholars such as Hawking. I would give professor Hawking more credit than to have to rely on idiots like Noam Chomsky for advice.


Quote"I accepted the invitation to the Presidential Conference with the intention that this would not only allow me to express my opinion on the prospects for a Peace Settlement but also because it would allow me to lecture on the West Bank," wrote Hawking. "However, I have received a number of emails from Palestinian academics. They are unanimous that I should respect the boycott. In view of this, I must withdraw from the conference. Had I attended, I would have stated my opinion that the policy of the present Israeli government is likely to lead to disaster."

Far from "seeing through Israel," this reads like he wanted to go, but was pressurised into not going by palestinians who are active in the BDS campaign. He says that he wanted to give his views on the prospects for peace, and wanted to say that he disagreed with Israeli government policy, but now his views may never be heard because of the pressure from the BDS movement.  Even the smartest brains are sometimes forced to do things they didn't wish to do  as the easier option.


It's much worse than Israel admits, Beaver.
Europe does not accept that the West Bank belongs to the Jewish people.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/03/israel-losing-international-support-british-ambassador
"The British ambassador to Israel has said international support for the Jewish state among those in the political mainstream is eroding, driven by settlement expansion in the West Bank and continued restrictions on Gaza.

There is "growing concern" in the UK over lack of progress towards peace with the Palestinians, and Israel was now being seen as Goliath against the Palestinians as David, said Matthew Gould, in reference to the biblical story.

In an unusually forthright interview for Israel's Channel 10 news, Gould said he detected a shift among the middle ground of British members of parliament towards a more critical view of Israel."Israelis might wake up in 10 years' time and find out that the level of understanding in the international community has suddenly changed, and that patience for continuing the status quo has reduced," he said.

"Support for Israel is starting to erode and that's not about these people on the fringe who are shouting loudly and calling for boycotts and all the rest of it. The interesting category are those members of parliament in the middle, and in that group I see a shift."

But, he added, Britain was "by no means unique" in its growing concern about the lack of progress towards peace. "Anyone who cares about Israel's standing in the world should be concerned about the erosion of popular support."


The shift was a result of Israeli government policies, Gould said, suggesting that it could not be countered or obscured by hasbara. The Hebrew word for explanation refers to efforts by the Israeli government and its supporters to promote a pro-Israel agenda and challenge what it sees as negative media coverage."

Gould is Jewish as well.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 12, 2013, 01:10:57 PM
Believe it or not Seafoid, but I don't think Samaria and Judea belongs to the Israeli state either. I do however understand their reasoning behind controlling the security of the area.

If Israel hadn't got such a heavy military presence in the area how long do you think it would be before there were massive attacks against Israel, from both "West Bank" and Gaza? Once Israel feels secure, then the landscape will begin to change, not before.

There will only be a reduction in the number of Israelis there when the security situation changes and a peace deal is agreed with the palestinians. The problem there is that Fatah and Hamas etc are telling their people that not only does palestine consist of Gaza, Judea and Samaria, but also includes all of what is now Israel, so no matter what peace deal is done, the palestinians won't be happy until all jews are driven into the sea.
   
Even if Israel were to announce their withdrawl tomorrow, it would take a minimum of 5 years or more to repatriate all the settlers who wish to return to Israel. Then there would be those who will want to stay in their homes. How will they be able to live securely in a hostile state?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2013, 02:30:12 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 12, 2013, 01:10:57 PM
Believe it or not Seafoid, but I don't think Samaria and Judea belongs to the Israeli state either. I do however understand their reasoning behind controlling the security of the area.

If Israel hadn't got such a heavy military presence in the area how long do you think it would be before there were massive attacks against Israel, from both "West Bank" and Gaza? Once Israel feels secure, then the landscape will begin to change, not before.

There will only be a reduction in the number of Israelis there when the security situation changes and a peace deal is agreed with the palestinians. The problem there is that Fatah and Hamas etc are telling their people that not only does palestine consist of Gaza, Judea and Samaria, but also includes all of what is now Israel, so no matter what peace deal is done, the palestinians won't be happy until all jews are driven into the sea.
   
Even if Israel were to announce their withdrawl tomorrow, it would take a minimum of 5 years or more to repatriate all the settlers who wish to return to Israel. Then there would be those who will want to stay in their homes. How will they be able to live securely in a hostile state?
The settlements are forever, Beaver. That is the whole point. Those cats are never going home.
Zionism says all of the land is Jewish. Israel spent over $100bn on the project since 1967 . It was not for the purposes of negotiation.
It's a mess. 

iThere will only be a reduction in the number of Israelis there when the security situation changes and a peace deal is agreed with the palestinians.   is horseshit. Israel won't talk. Never ever offered anything meaningful. That land is theirs and the Palestinians don't belong in their own country is what the Israelis believe.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 12, 2013, 02:40:27 PM
They said the same about the Gaza settlements, but Israel withdrew from every single one of them, even forcibly evicting those that wanted to remain. They won't make the same mistake they made in Gaza, by withdrawing too soon before there was real peace.
Israel will withdraw when the conditions are right. They have no other option.


But you're right, it is a mess.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2013, 03:00:08 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 12, 2013, 02:40:27 PM
They said the same about the Gaza settlements, but Israel withdrew from every single one of them, even forcibly evicting those that wanted to remain. They won't make the same mistake they made in Gaza, by withdrawing too soon before there was real peace.
Israel will withdraw when the conditions are right. They have no other option.


But you're right, it is a mess.
No, the Gaza settlers were shafted to secure the West Bank.
Always the plan. East Jerusalem will never be given back. It's not reversible.
Which is why Israel is fucked .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2013, 09:43:42 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 11, 2013, 02:52:23 PM
Are you for real? The Hamas poster boy's post was all about how the man was partially responsible for Hawking's decision, so it is entirely appropriate that I counter that with my own about the warped thinking of Noam (stop giggling at the back) Chomsky. When someone is used as a character witness, expect their own views to be brought into question.

I see you don't dispute the facts of my argument.



Noam Chomsky  ;D
Here's that idiot Chomsky talking shite about Iraq. Like he knew anything about what was going on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1bheLSLBmY
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 02:06:39 AM
So because he can see the blatantly obvious about Iraq, he's a genius when it comes to Israel?

FFS Seafoid, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Syferus on May 13, 2013, 02:41:47 AM
Lads, just have sex and get it over with. This foreplay is driving us all daft.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 05:14:52 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 13, 2013, 02:41:47 AM
Lads, just have sex and get it over with. This foreplay is driving us all daft.
I think Seafoid wants to do dirty things to me.  :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 08:59:34 AM


http://gush-shalom.org.toibillboard.info/GuWeekly.htm


Gush ad 10.5.13







Of all the dangers
Facing Israel,
The one
That frightens
The government
Most is
The danger of
Peace.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 03:37:53 PM
Again, soundbites and bullshit.






Please, please post an original thought of your own, or even an article. Go on, it's not that hard. I'll do one to get you started..................
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 03:41:46 PM
See, it's not hard at all............... Here's one from your favourite site.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167955



'They Beat Me like I was a Drum'

Rabbi Yosef Kovalkin describes the brutal mob attack on him and Aharon Zlatkin last week.


AAFont Size
By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 5/12/2013, 10:07 PM


Rabbi Yosef Yitzhak Kovalkin of Neria, in the Binyamin region, was brutally beaten May 4 at the Doar Junction near his community together with another Jew, Aharon Zlatkin, 53.

Zlatkin is still in the hospital and was initially under anesthesia and artificial respiration. He is now doing a little better and has begun moving his arms and legs and even mumbling some words.

Kovalkin told Arutz Sheva that he and Zlatkin took part in a protest against the security situation after a week that was full of attacks on Jewish motorists in the region, including throwing of rocks and fire bombs, rolling boulders on cars and more.

"Most of the people stood at the junction at the Doar Junction," he recalled. "Some may have entered the village, I don't remember. We stood at the entrance to the village to prevent them from leaving. It's unacceptable that we will be hit by rocks and they will move about freely. I stood in the middle of the road and Aharon stood at the side.

"An older man came up to me with about six or seven youths holding clubs. They had murder in their eyes. He shouted at me, 'Get out of here, get the hell out.' I answered him with confidence – 'You get out of here. You have no business here.' They left me alone. I turned around and then I heard blows, and I saw them hitting Aharon with clubs, one after the other.

"I moved in immediately to protect him. Suddenly I felt that one of them hit me hard in the back with a club, and felled me to the floor. From that moment it was like they were beating drums – clubs all over my body. They wanted to kill a Jew, no matter how."

There were three soldiers on the scene throughout the attack, he said, but the IDF's "delusional" orders for opening fire made it impossible for them to do anything, Rabbi Kovalkin said.

He emerged from the beating with over 30 stitches in his head. His fingers swelled up because he used his hands to shield his head, but luckily no bones were broken.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 03:44:01 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 03:37:53 PM
Again, soundbites and bullshit.
Please, please post an original thought of your own, or even an article. Go on, it's not that hard. I'll do one to get you started..................
What is the issue with links ?
Most of your stuff is from settler websites and presented in big letters in colour  .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 03:41:46 PM
See, it's not hard at all............... Here's one from your favourite site.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167955
Rabbi Yosef Kovalkin describes the brutal mob attack on him and Aharon Zlatkin last week.
y Gil Ronen
First Publish: 5/12/2013, 10:07 PM


Rabbi Yosef Yitzhak Kovalkin of Neria, in the Binyamin region, was brutally beaten May 4 at the Doar Junction near his community together with another Jew, Aharon Zlatkin, 53.

Zlatkin is still in the hospital and was initially under anesthesia and artificial respiration. He is now doing a little better and has begun moving his arms and legs and even mumbling some words.

Kovalkin told Arutz Sheva that he and Zlatkin took part in a protest against the security situation after a week that was full of attacks on Jewish motorists in the region, including throwing of rocks and fire bombs, rolling boulders on cars and more.

"Most of the people stood at the junction at the Doar Junction," he recalled. "Some may have entered the village, I don't remember. We stood at the entrance to the village to prevent them from leaving. It's unacceptable that we will be hit by rocks and they will move about freely. I stood in the middle of the road and Aharon stood at the side.

"An older man came up to me with about six or seven youths holding clubs. They had murder in their eyes. He shouted at me, 'Get out of here, get the hell out.' I answered him with confidence – 'You get out of here. You have no business here.' They left me alone. I turned around and then I heard blows, and I saw them hitting Aharon with clubs, one after the other.

"I moved in immediately to protect him. Suddenly I felt that one of them hit me hard in the back with a club, and felled me to the floor. From that moment it was like they were beating drums – clubs all over my body. They wanted to kill a Jew, no matter how."

There were three soldiers on the scene throughout the attack, he said, but the IDF's "delusional" orders for opening fire made it impossible for them to do anything, Rabbi Kovalkin said.

He emerged from the beating with over 30 stitches in his head. His fingers swelled up because he used his hands to shield his head, but luckily no bones were broken.

"It's unacceptable that we will be hit by rocks and they will move about freely"

Do you agree with this, Beaver? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 04:12:53 PM
Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?

Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 04:19:08 PM
Totally.



As he is clearly talking about the attack he suffered and the on-going rock attacks on jewish owned cars by palestinians, then it is perfectly right of him to take this attitude.
Why should it be OK for palestinians to attack elderly rabbis and jewish cars, then cry when the jews hit back?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 04:50:02 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 04:12:53 PM
Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?

Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.

The U.N.'s Human Rights Council special rapporteur for the Palestinians Richard Falk has come under a lot of pressure lately to resign due to his continued anti Israeli stance, and is viewed by Israel especially as overtly pro palestinian. Plaestinians are the only refugees in history to be given special status by the UN, in that their descendants (even children and grandchildren born long after they arrived in their host nation) are given refugee status by UN, while no other victim of any conflict worldwide gets the same treatment. Why?

Sorry to tell you, but a completely neutral view point is almost impossible to find. You don't believe the Israeli version, but I can assure you, the palestinian version of what happens there will always be to blame Israel. The Israeli version may initially blame the palestinians, but as the fog lifts and if it comes out that Israel was to blame, then the truth usually comes out in the Israeli press. The palestinian press will never go against the party line in favour of the Israeli narrative because there is no such thing as a "free press" in palestine. There have been many documented attacks on and murders of journalists who dare to print what they see as the truth in palestinian areas.


This is an old article (2004), but it sums up perfectly why there is only one side of the argument that gets out of palestinian controlled areas.


Telling the Truth about the Palestinians

A briefing by Khaled Abu Toameh
April 27, 2004


Khaled Abu Toameh, an Israeli Arab, is the West Bank and Gaza correspondent for the Jerusalem Post and U.S. News and World Report. He previously served as a senior writer for the Jerusalem Report, and a correspondent for Al-Fajr. He has produced several documentaries on the Palestinians for the BBC and many other networks, including ones that exposed the connection between Arafat and payments to the armed wing of Fatah and the financial corruption within the Palestinian Authority. Mr. Abu Toameh received his BA in English Literature from the Hebrew University and currently lives in Jerusalem with his wife and three children. He addressed the Middle East Forum in Philadelphia on April 27, 2004.

As an Arab journalist working among Palestinians, I am often asked if I feel threatened while I work. I am indeed frequently placed in life-threatening situations, yet the threats I experience do not come from the Israeli occupation, but from Yasir Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA). At least 12 Palestinian journalists have been attacked by masked men in the past four months in what appears to be an organized campaign to intimidate the media. Only days ago, a photographer working for Agence France-Presse had his arms broken by a masked man in Ramallah. Agence France-Presse did not do anything about this attack, but a great outcry is raised when Israeli soldiers allegedly harass journalists in the territories.

The Lack of Independence in the Palestinian Media

Twenty years ago, while studying at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, I worked for the PLO's newspaper Al Fajr (The Dawn). Al Fajr was more than a paper; it was a PLO institution. At the paper we basically received and carried out orders from Arafat's office in Tunisia. Although I eventually became an editor there, I did not mention my position at Al Fajr on my resume for years because I did not consider the work that went on there to be real journalism. Now, after being censured for my outspokenly critical views of the Palestinian media, I consider my time at Al Fajr testament to my knowledge of the lack of journalistic freedom at the PLO newspaper.

I continue to witness what is happening to the Palestinian media under Arafat. Many of my Palestinian colleagues actually envy me for writing for an Israeli paper. Working for the PLO, I was not able to write a word of my own free will. Yet in two years at the Jerusalem Post my editors have never told me what to write. I can function as a journalist at the Jerusalem Post in a way that many Palestinians have tried to function under Arafat, but have failed.

Arafat's Attack on Free Speech

When Arafat returned to the West Bank and Gaza from his exile, his security forces ignored pursuing terrorists and instead arrested independent journalists not loyal enough to the PLO. Over 38 journalists were forced out of their jobs or the country. This was not given much attention by the foreign media because at the time Arafat was allowed to do whatever he wanted in the name of Oslo. Although they did not cover the story heavily, I was not alone in pointing out to foreign journalists that the first thing Arafat did when PLO returned to the territories was to restrict freedom of speech.

Arafat has complete control over the Palestinian media to this day. Almost all Palestinian newspapers are financed by the PLO, and serve as a mouthpiece for the organization, which is basically Arafat's office. Some days the headlines for the three major Palestinians papers are identical. The lack of freedom at these papers is a big disappointment for Palestinian journalists; they were freer to write what they wanted under Israeli occupation before the PLO returned from exile.

Arafat's suppression of free speech is another example of an Arab leader not allowing the people to speak out. In this way Arafat is no different from other Arab dictators, who see the role of the media as subservient to – and a mouthpiece for – their regimes. In the Arab world, if you are an independent journalist or you criticize the regime, then you are branded a traitor – and that kind of suppression of dissent is how dictatorial Arab regimes survive.

Palestinian Media and their Impact on Foreign Media

The lack of free speech in the territories should not be dismissed as an internal Palestinian problem. When Palestinian journalists are intimidated, it affects foreign journalists, who depend on Palestinians to be their guides and translators in the territories. When foreign journalists interview Palestinians, many translators often mistranslate or even reprimand Palestinian interviewees critical of the Palestinian Authority, and foreign journalists' ability to accurately gather facts is thus hampered.

Another problem with the Palestinian media is the sad fact that some Palestinian journalists see themselves as foot soldiers serving the revolution. These so-called journalists are often politically affiliated with one group or another. Under the PA, you basically cannot be a journalist if you are not a member of Fatah or the security forces. All the credible independent journalists have been fired by the three major Palestinian newspapers, and there are many professional Palestinian journalists, but they have been forced to seek work with the Arab and foreign media.

There are some in the foreign media who knowingly hire consultants or journalists who are really political activists, and rely heavily on them for their reporting. These "consultants" include former security prisoners and political activists who are hired by major media organizations, including American ones, who are often aware of these so-called journalists' problematic backgrounds. Despite the bias of their consultants, which inevitably affects their reporting, the media organizations keep quiet about the consultants' backgrounds. It is hard to say if this acquiescence by foreign media organizations is due to intimidation or to the need to maintain a good relationship with the PA, but it seriously affects the ability of journalists in the region to report the facts on the ground to the world.

Conclusion

People in the rest of the world therefore do not get an accurate picture of what happens in the region, and there are two parties to blame for this journalistic failure. Partly to blame are foreign journalists who allow themselves to be misled by some of their Palestinian consultants. The bulk of the blame, however, rests with the PA, whose tyrannical approach and control of the media creates an atmosphere of intimidation and fear among Palestinian journalists.

http://www.meforum.org/604/telling-the-truth-about-the-palestinians




Good luck trying to get your head round it.  :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 04:12:53 PM
Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?
Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.

Jewish lobby in the US. Israel is above international law basically.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 05:14:35 PM
The Jewish lobby in the US is stopping UN observers go to Gaza? Can you point me to something I can read on that? (NOT published by Noam Chomsky or some other advocate of the Palestinian side). Have the UN said this?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 05:25:32 PM
Fair enough, and I have no doubt that the Israeli lobby in the states has done several things like that, to try win the PR war over there. However that doesn't really mean the same as actually keeping the UN out of Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:34:15 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 05:14:35 PM
The Jewish lobby in the US is stopping UN observers go to Gaza? Can you point me to something I can read on that? (NOT published by Noam Chomsky or some other advocate of the Palestinian side). Have the UN said this?
You can start with Gaza 2008 and Israel's 3 week assault.- Israel refused to allow independent observers in to report back to the UN on what happened. Judge Goldstone eventually wrote a report with no input from Israel

http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/04/sinning-against-zionism-traitor-to-country/

"Thus did the Goldstone Report, executed on behalf of all nations united in pursuit of truth, become the lodestone that attracted the attention of the world and brought condemnation to the state of Israel. In retaliation for such an act, he suffered the consequences of those who act treacherously to their masters, the Zionist powers that used time-tested punishments of those who find fault with the tribe: damnation, isolation, coercion, rejection, humiliation, and expulsion from his own. Thus did the false gods expose themselves, forcing Richard Goldstone to retract his own words in a blind attempt to seek solace in the tribe that condemned him."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-exactly-did-goldstone-retract-from-his-report-on-gaza-1.355454

Then Richard Falk , another UN employee- he has recently been targeted by vitriolic abuse again from the same people because of what he has said in defence of the people in Gaza

http://nasir-khan.blogspot.ch/2013/04/jeremy-r-hammond-zionists-continue-to.html

Jon Stewart on the influence of the Israel lobby

We are f***ing powerless: Jon Stewart takes aim at Obama's Israel visit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w40GxF2WrVQ

American veto history in defence of Israel , pure lobby related

http://972mag.com/american-veto-history-protecting-occupation-apartheid/34836/

Gaza is being made unliveable by Israel

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19391809

but nothing is done because of Israel's friends in high places.

Have a look at Chuck Hagel's confirmation hearing for Secretary of Defense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSza30iP6JQ
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 05:41:10 PM
Is there a UN statement on this? What do they say about not being in Israel? See even this wording

"Thus did the Goldstone Report, executed on behalf of all nations united in pursuit of truth, become the lodestone that attracted the attention of the world and brought condemnation to the state of Israel. In retaliation for such an act, he suffered the consequences of those who act treacherously to their masters, the Zionist powers that used time-tested punishments of those who find fault with the tribe: damnation, isolation, coercion, rejection, humiliation, and expulsion from his own. Thus did the false gods expose themselves, forcing Richard Goldstone to retract his own words in a blind attempt to seek solace in the tribe that condemned him."

Is so loaded with emotive words that you tend to focus on the anger rather than what happened. I'd not be angry about what happened the Report, more with how or why Israel blocked the observers. Are observers allowed in now?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 05:44:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.

So you believe that terrorists (who's day job was in a news organisation) should be honoured the same as a neutral journalist, who looks for nothing more than the truth?

Bizzare world you live in.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 05:45:52 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 05:41:10 PM
Is there a UN statement on this? What do they say about not being in Israel? See even this wording

"Thus did the Goldstone Report, executed on behalf of all nations united in pursuit of truth, become the lodestone that attracted the attention of the world and brought condemnation to the state of Israel. In retaliation for such an act, he suffered the consequences of those who act treacherously to their masters, the Zionist powers that used time-tested punishments of those who find fault with the tribe: damnation, isolation, coercion, rejection, humiliation, and expulsion from his own. Thus did the false gods expose themselves, forcing Richard Goldstone to retract his own words in a blind attempt to seek solace in the tribe that condemned him."

Is so loaded with emotive words that you tend to focus on the anger rather than what happened. I'd not be angry about what happened the Report, more with how or why Israel blocked the observers. Are observers allowed in now?

You'll find that about Seafoid's posts, all emotive sound bites, but very little substance.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
And exactly the same in yours BalldeBeaver. Except the emotive language is coming from the pro-Israeli side. That's the most confusing thing. Everyone who comments seems to have some skin in the game. There's no Bill Clinton figure to play his saxaphone and tell everyone to cop on. And worse, there seems to be very little media that's not either naturally slanted pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. It's a shame because it makes debates such as the one here fairly pointless. Seafoid and give her dixie (for whom I have great respect after seeing his Tyrone to Gaza exploits) will give the Palestinian slant on things, while yourself and Mike Sheehy will give the Israeli slant. Black is White and White is Black basically.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 07:07:18 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
And exactly the same in yours BalldeBeaver. Except the emotive language is coming from the pro-Israeli side. That's the most confusing thing. Everyone who comments seems to have some skin in the game. There's no Bill Clinton figure to play his saxaphone and tell everyone to cop on. And worse, there seems to be very little media that's not either naturally slanted pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. It's a shame because it makes debates such as the one here fairly pointless. Seafoid and give her dixie (for whom I have great respect after seeing his Tyrone to Gaza exploits) will give the Palestinian slant on things, while yourself and Mike Sheehy will give the Israeli slant. Black is White and White is Black basically.
Unfortunately, that is the way of this conflict. The war in the media is just as important as the war in the streets, but the fact that there is so much conflicting information coming out just makes it more important that we do debate it in an open forum, where people such as yourself can get a balanced, informed view of whats happening and not just one sided propoganda.

I don't doubt for one minute that GHD's reasons for wanting to help the palestinians may be honourable, but he is giving ligitimacy to a terrorist organisation by working hand in hand with them to break the blockade. That is shameful. There are other far more worthy and legitimate ways to help those ordinary Gazans he feels needs it, without resorting to supplying aid to terrorists. A simple google search will show you Gazans are in more danger from Hamas than they are from Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 07:37:58 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 05:44:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.

So you believe that terrorists (who's day job was in a news organisation) should be honoured the same as a neutral journalist, who looks for nothing more than the truth?

Bizzare world you live in.
The Sinaloa cartel in Mexico murder journalists too. So easy to call them terrorists.
Ordinary Jews need the protection of laws, Beaver. They won't always have the IDF.

The Brits called Pat  Finucane a terrorist, you know. the UDF could have murdered Poilin ni Chiarain with that Israeli approach.I think Israel is going really deep into the darkness with this.

And who decides who is a terrorist?     
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 05:41:10 PM
Is there a UN statement on this? What do they say about not being in Israel? See even this wording

"Thus did the Goldstone Report, executed on behalf of all nations united in pursuit of truth, become the lodestone that attracted the attention of the world and brought condemnation to the state of Israel. In retaliation for such an act, he suffered the consequences of those who act treacherously to their masters, the Zionist powers that used time-tested punishments of those who find fault with the tribe: damnation, isolation, coercion, rejection, humiliation, and expulsion from his own. Thus did the false gods expose themselves, forcing Richard Goldstone to retract his own words in a blind attempt to seek solace in the tribe that condemned him."

Is so loaded with emotive words that you tend to focus on the anger rather than what happened. I'd not be angry about what happened the Report, more with how or why Israel blocked the observers. Are observers allowed in now?

They aren't allowed in now, AZ. The UN isn't going to issue a communique that says "listen everyone we are hamstrung because it's Israel and to do anything against the will of Israel would be essentially antisemitic".

Here is the UN site with the report

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/FactFindingMission.htm

"On 3 April 2009, the President of the Human Rights Council established an international independent Fact Finding Mission with the mandate "to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza during the period from 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, whether before, during or after." [See press release of 3 April 2009 and transcript of press briefing]"



http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/goldstone-s-regret-is-a-result-of-emotional-pressure-1.354841

Goldstone's 'regret' is a result of emotional pressure

At the time, we should recall, Israel vehemently refused to conduct a probe of Operation Cast Lead. According to the strange interpretations of his "regret," 1,400 people - most of them civilians - were killed in Gaza by mistake. Well, only a professional "mistake maker" could cause killings of such magnitude.

To stand firm for two years is an act of heroism. At his advanced age, it would have been quite cruel had Goldstone been prevented, in his own community, from being called up to read from the Torah at his grandson's bar mitzvah. To humiliate him publicly, in front of his family, that's like a 20-year-old IDF soldier humiliating a Palestinian in front of his sons.

It is hard to identify when the breaking point came. Apparently it was a sequence of events: total ostracism on the part of every Jewish organization the world over; declarations, not from the lunatic fringes, but from central figures in world Jewry to the effect that Goldstone, the world-renowned human rights activist, was "spreading lies" about his own people, and he was the one preventing Defense Minister Ehud Barak from visiting London - "while Khaled Meshal, an arch-terrorist, can move around freely," as one prominent Jewish activist said. And so the judge who joined the United Nations commission as a human rights activist emerged as someone who obeys the terrorists.


We can state here: Goldstone's "regret" is a result of emotional pressure - and this time around, not a moderate amount."



Here is Goldstone's public volte face in the WaPo.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-04-01/opinions/35207016_1_drone-image-goldstone-report-israeli-evidence

You are NEVER going to have UN sanctions against Israel. Power does not work like that.

Here is former White House spokeswoman Victoria Nuland explaining why the US was removing funding from UNESCO after the organisation voted to recognise Palestine as a quasi state. Matthew Lee works for AP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU7osIl8IDI


MATTHEW LEE: Going back to what you said in your opening, you said that this was—is regrettable, premature, and undermines our shared goal. Whose shared goal? Who shares this goal of the only 13 other countries that voted with you?

VICTORIA NULAND: Countries all over the international system share the goal of a Palestinian state in secure borders.

MATTHEW LEE: Why would they possibly do something—well, how could they possibly do something that you say is so horrible and detrimental to that process? How can they—how can you still count them—count on them as sharing this goal?

VICTORIA NULAND: You'll have to speak to them about why they made the decision that they made. We considered that this was, as I said, regrettable, premature, and undermines the prospect of getting where we want to go. And that's what we're concerned about. MATTHEW LEE: OK. And how does it undermine—exactly how does it undermine the prospect of where you want to go?

VICTORIA NULAND: The concern is that it creates tensions when all of us should be concerting our efforts to get the parties back to the table.

MATTHEW LEE: OK, the only tensions that it creates—the only thing it does is it upsets Israel, and it triggers this law that you said—that will require you to stop funding UNESCO. Is there anything else? There's nothing that changes on the ground, is there?

VICTORIA NULAND: Our concern is that this could exacerbate the environment, which we are trying to work through so that the parties will get back to the table.

MATTHEW LEE: How exactly does it exacerbate the environment, if it changes nothing on the ground, unlike, say, construction of settlements? It changes nothing on the ground. It gives Palestine membership in UNESCO, which was a body that the U.S. was so unconcerned about for many years that it just wasn't even a member.

VICTORIA NULAND: Well, I think you know that this administration is committed to UNESCO, rejoined UNESCO—

MATTHEW LEE: Right.

VICTORIA NULAND: —wants to see UNESCO's work go forward—

MATTHEW LEE: Well, actually, it was the last administration that rejoined UNESCO, not this one. But I need—I need to have some kind of clarity on how this undermines the peace process, other than the fact that it upsets Israel.

VICTORIA NULAND: Again, we are trying to get both of these parties back to the table. That's what we've been doing all along. That was the basis for the President's speech in May, basis of the diplomacy that the Quartet did through the summer, the basis of the statement that the Quartet came out with in September. So, in that context, we have been trying to improve the relationship between these parties, improve the environment between them, and we are concerned that we exacerbate tensions with this. And it makes it harder to get the parties back to the table.

MATTHEW LEE: Since the talks broke off last September until today, how many times have they met together, with all your effort? VICTORIA NULAND: How many times have the parties met?

MATTHEW LEE: Yes.

VICTORIA NULAND: I think you know the answer to that question.

MATTHEW LEE: Correct.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 08:09:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 07:37:58 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 05:44:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.

So you believe that terrorists (who's day job was in a news organisation) should be honoured the same as a neutral journalist, who looks for nothing more than the truth?

Bizzare world you live in.
The Sinaloa cartel in Mexico murder journalists too. So easy to call them terrorists.
Ordinary Jews need the protection of laws, Beaver. They won't always have the IDF.

The Brits called Pat  Finucane a terrorist, you know. the UDF could have murdered Poilin ni Chiarain with that Israeli approach.I think Israel is going really deep into the darkness with this.

And who decides who is a terrorist?   
What in the name of jehovah are you babbling on about? They were both claimed as members of Hamas, by Hamas.

Are you trying to say Hamas are some community group and aren't really a terrorist organisation?  :o
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 08:09:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 07:37:58 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 05:44:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.

So you believe that terrorists (who's day job was in a news organisation) should be honoured the same as a neutral journalist, who looks for nothing more than the truth?

Bizzare world you live in.
The Sinaloa cartel in Mexico murder journalists too. So easy to call them terrorists.
Ordinary Jews need the protection of laws, Beaver. They won't always have the IDF.

The Brits called Pat  Finucane a terrorist, you know. the UDF could have murdered Poilin ni Chiarain with that Israeli approach.I think Israel is going really deep into the darkness with this.

And who decides who is a terrorist?   
What in the name of jehovah are you babbling on about? They were both claimed as members of Hamas, by Hamas.

Are you trying to say Hamas are some community group and aren't really a terrorist organisation?  :o
Do you think civilian Army radio staff are legitimate military targets? 
And has the war on terror changed the rules of war in your opinion?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 08:24:27 PM
Ian Williams on what happened to Goldstone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pjYYr2lZ4Y


Goldstone Flinched Due To Social Pressure -- Plus Great NY Times Column On Judge



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/goldstone-flinched-for-re_b_846083.html

A terrific article in the Jewish Forward today explains what was behind Judge Richard Goldstone's decision to amend his original findings on the Gaza war: social pressure.

The article describes how Goldstone's community in Johannesburg summoned Goldstone to a meeting with the Jewish Federation at which communal leaders essentially indicted Goldstone for being a traitor.

"It was a heavy meeting. They went in very hard against him. There were no smiling handshakes afterwards. Avrom's [the head of the South African Zionist Foundation] opening statement was pretty merciless."
The meeting in South Africa came on the heels of Goldstone's 11th hour decision to attend his grandson's bar mitzvah -- a decision he took only after threats were withdrawn by prominent community members to protest outside the synagogue. Did all this add up to an emotional punch that would cause Goldstone's turnaround? It may be too simplistic to reduce the process to that. But several friends cited what they viewed as the cumulative toll of a stream of calumny hurled at the famously unemotional jurist.



In other words, Goldstone couldn't handle the anger of friends and, perhaps, even members of his family. (His family's decision to go ahead with a Bar Mitzvah at a synagogue that banned the Bar Mitzvah boy's grandfather from attending seems positively bizarre).

So Goldstone decided to appease his crowd. His article in the Washington Post was not designed to repudiate his own report (and it didn't). It was designed to win back the friendship of people whose nationalist feelings were hurt.

This is all understandable, if not admirable.

It is also common. The cravenness of some progressive Jewish organizations (like the Reform movement) in supporting the Gaza war may be dictated as much by social ostracism as by donor intimidation organized by AIPAC. Even J Street, which bravely opposed Gaza, felt the need to praise Goldstone's decision to step back from his original report.

This fear of ostracism by fellow Jews severely damages the ability of progressive Jews to help end the conflict. So long as they are always looking over their shoulders to see what the status quo crowd is saying, their effectiveness is limited.
It doesn't have to be that way. If progressive Jews really believe that ending the occupation and supporting a Palestinian state is in Israel's best interests, they will turn the tables on their "mainstream" friends and ask them why they are supporting policies that will inevitably lead to Israel's demise. If progressive Jews honestly believe that the occupation is a cancer on Israel, they will say it loud and clear. They will stop being intimidated by people who have been proven wrong about pretty much everything since 1967 and who have done immeasurable damage to the Jewish state.

As for losing friends, so what? Doing the right thing is often (maybe even usually) unpopular. Do you think the abolitionists didn't lose friends and offend reactionary clergy? How about the European Christians who fought anti-Semitism in the 1930s? Or, of course, the brave South Africans who fought apartheid? Or Americans who fought for equal rights for African-Americans, women, and the GLBT community?

Progressive Jews need to break with the status quo crowd. The path of compromise will get them exactly nowhere. And it will be Israel, even more than Palestinians, who will pay the price.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Count 10 on May 13, 2013, 08:28:29 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 04:12:53 PM
Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?

Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.

Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any other country and the reason is that the US vetoes any "sanctions" against them. If truth be told no one really cares about the Palestinians .....yes now and again there is the odd lip service paid. What really gets me is the utter ambivalence shown by other Arab nations....basically they pretend that they are all united under Islam but underneath it all they hate each other every bit as much as Israel do. A very sad state of affairs and both sides are losers in all of this.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 08:46:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 08:09:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 07:37:58 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 05:44:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.

So you believe that terrorists (who's day job was in a news organisation) should be honoured the same as a neutral journalist, who looks for nothing more than the truth?

Bizzare world you live in.
The Sinaloa cartel in Mexico murder journalists too. So easy to call them terrorists.
Ordinary Jews need the protection of laws, Beaver. They won't always have the IDF.

The Brits called Pat  Finucane a terrorist, you know. the UDF could have murdered Poilin ni Chiarain with that Israeli approach.I think Israel is going really deep into the darkness with this.

And who decides who is a terrorist?   
What in the name of jehovah are you babbling on about? They were both claimed as members of Hamas, by Hamas.

Are you trying to say Hamas are some community group and aren't really a terrorist organisation?  :o
Do you think civilian Army radio staff are legitimate military targets? 
And has the war on terror changed the rules of war in your opinion?
They weren't civilians. Hamas proudly declared they were members. "Jihadi martyrs"
Civilians aren't the same as soldiers or members of terrorist organisations. A cleaner in an army installation is completely different from a soldier in the same installation. Your argument holds no water.
Any soldier working for army radio can be called a legitimate target.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:01:26 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 08:46:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 08:18:57 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 08:09:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 07:37:58 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 05:44:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.

So you believe that terrorists (who's day job was in a news organisation) should be honoured the same as a neutral journalist, who looks for nothing more than the truth?

Bizzare world you live in.
The Sinaloa cartel in Mexico murder journalists too. So easy to call them terrorists.
Ordinary Jews need the protection of laws, Beaver. They won't always have the IDF.

The Brits called Pat  Finucane a terrorist, you know. the UDF could have murdered Poilin ni Chiarain with that Israeli approach.I think Israel is going really deep into the darkness with this.

And who decides who is a terrorist?   
What in the name of jehovah are you babbling on about? They were both claimed as members of Hamas, by Hamas.

Are you trying to say Hamas are some community group and aren't really a terrorist organisation?  :o
Do you think civilian Army radio staff are legitimate military targets? 
And has the war on terror changed the rules of war in your opinion?
They weren't civilians. Hamas proudly declared they were members. "Jihadi martyrs"
Civilians aren't the same as soldiers or members of terrorist organisations. A cleaner in an army installation is completely different from a soldier in the same installation. Your argument holds no water.
Any soldier working for army radio can be called a legitimate target.
More horseshit from Arutz 7 . tut tut. 


The two men's families, interviewed separately, said the men were neither participating in the fighting nor members of any armed group. Human Rights Watch found no evidence, including during visits to the men's homes, to contradict that claim. Hamas's armed wing, al-Qassam Brigades, has not put either man on its official list of killed fighters– an unlikely omission if the men had been playing a military role.

Are Fox reporters fair game the next time the Yanks go to war? 

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:03:32 PM
Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:04:28 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on May 13, 2013, 08:28:29 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 13, 2013, 04:12:53 PM
Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?

Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.

Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any other country and the reason is that the US vetoes any "sanctions" against them. If truth be told no one really cares about the Palestinians .....yes now and again there is the odd lip service paid. What really gets me is the utter ambivalence shown by other Arab nations....basically they pretend that they are all united under Islam but underneath it all they hate each other every bit as much as Israel do. A very sad state of affairs and both sides are losers in all of this.
Every arab country the palestinians have gone to as refugees refuses to let them integrate into the community, even going as far as to restrict travel, work and medicine. They deny the palestinians the exact same things they castigate Israel for.  Arab nations have a long history of grand gestures of promising aid to the palestinians, then refusing to cough up when it comes to the crunch. It suits the arab nations to use the palestinian refugees as pawns in their game of oneupmanship against Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 13, 2013, 09:05:05 PM
Ball debeaver - Are you saying you don't believe Israel has targeted civilians? In my opinion Israel is a rogue regime that murders men, women and children for its own selfish reasons. The rest of the world knows this hence the UN resolutions but the problem is the US, with its very powerful Jewish lobby, stops any serious action being taken. Before you start I know that Hamas have done and continue to do some horrific things also but we have to apply some scale to this. Israels murders with the top of the range weapons of mass destruction, has a nuclear arsenal and think it is fair enough to nuke a market full of people if some Hamas target is also there. Hamas fires the equivalent of a Cap gun in response.

I don't understand how anyone could take the side of Israel in this.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:03:32 PM
Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:09:39 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:03:32 PM
Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.
So did Hamas have the right under the new rules of war to execute Shalit?
What about torture? Does Israel have the right to torture prisoners?
Does Hizballah have the right under the new rules of war to starve Jewish prisoners to death?
And where are the new rules of war defined? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:19:38 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 13, 2013, 09:05:05 PM
Ball debeaver - Are you saying you don't believe Israel has targeted civilians? In my opinion Israel is a rogue regime that murders men, women and children for its own selfish reasons. The rest of the world knows this hence the UN resolutions but the problem is the US, with its very powerful Jewish lobby, stops any serious action being taken. Before you start I know that Hamas have done and continue to do some horrific things also but we have to apply some scale to this. Israels murders with the top of the range weapons of mass destruction, has a nuclear arsenal and think it is fair enough to nuke a market full of people if some Hamas target is also there. Hamas fires the equivalent of a Cap gun in response.

I don't understand how anyone could take the side of Israel in this.

Don't give me that nonsense. A knife or home made grad rocket will kill you just as dead as a $10mil guided missile.

Two years ago 2 palestinian youths murdered 5 members of the Fogel family armed with nothing but knives. (up until they stole the father's AR15 which they used after they slit their throats) Suicide bombers have murdered dozens with simple bombs strapped to them. The technology involved in the actual armaments Israel has at it's disposal has no bearing on the threat they face from an enemy possessing comparatively primative weapons.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 13, 2013, 09:28:57 PM
Where did I say that a knife wasn't a lethal weapon? You avoided the question I asked I notice. Do you mind if I ask you another question - how do you come to know so much about Israel/Palestinian relations. To you go there?

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:33:28 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:19:38 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 13, 2013, 09:05:05 PM
Ball debeaver - Are you saying you don't believe Israel has targeted civilians? In my opinion Israel is a rogue regime that murders men, women and children for its own selfish reasons. The rest of the world knows this hence the UN resolutions but the problem is the US, with its very powerful Jewish lobby, stops any serious action being taken. Before you start I know that Hamas have done and continue to do some horrific things also but we have to apply some scale to this. Israels murders with the top of the range weapons of mass destruction, has a nuclear arsenal and think it is fair enough to nuke a market full of people if some Hamas target is also there. Hamas fires the equivalent of a Cap gun in response.

I don't understand how anyone could take the side of Israel in this.

Don't give me that nonsense. A knife or home made grad rocket will kill you just as dead as a $10mil guided missile.

Two years ago 2 palestinian youths murdered 5 members of the Fogel family armed with nothing but knives. (up until they stole the father's AR15 which they used after they slit their throats) Suicide bombers have murdered dozens with simple bombs strapped to them. The technology involved in the actual armaments Israel has at it's disposal has no bearing on the threat they face from an enemy possessing comparatively primative weapons.
Thank god for the Fogel family. Always get a mention anytime anyone brings up Israel's weaponry.
Gideon Levy in today 's Ha'aretz notes the IDF is 5 times bigger than Israel's capacity to pay for it. All the wars it needs to justify its bloated  existence are danger to the ordinary people of Israel.

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:35:19 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 13, 2013, 09:05:05 PM
Ball debeaver - Are you saying you don't believe Israel has targeted civilians? In my opinion Israel is a rogue regime that murders men, women and children for its own selfish reasons. The rest of the world knows this hence the UN resolutions but the problem is the US, with its very powerful Jewish lobby, stops any serious action being taken. Before you start I know that Hamas have done and continue to do some horrific things also but we have to apply some scale to this. Israels murders with the top of the range weapons of mass destruction, has a nuclear arsenal and think it is fair enough to nuke a market full of people if some Hamas target is also there. Hamas fires the equivalent of a Cap gun in response.

I don't understand how anyone could take the side of Israel in this.
You would probably have to be paid, really.
The spin is really out of date. How anyone can say "Israel wants peace" with a straight face is beyond me.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:09:39 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:03:32 PM
Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.
So did Hamas have the right under the new rules of war to execute Shalit?
NO. Shalit was a captured soldier, protected under the Geneva convention.

Quote
What about torture? Does Israel have the right to torture prisoners?
As much right as Hamas and Fatah have. Guess who uses torture more on palestinians. I'll give you a clue, it isn't Israel.

Quote
Does Hizballah have the right under the new rules of war to starve Jewish prisoners to death?
No one has the right to starve any prisoners to death, but if a prisoner goes on hunger strike, then he can bloody well starve.
[/quote]

Why do you hold Israel to a higher standard of human rights than the palestinians. If you were as concerned about palestinian rights as you are about being anti Israeli then you would be more concerned about getting rid of Hamas and Fatah who you know fine rightly are bleeding them dry.


I've a question for you. Do you believe the state of Israel has the right to stay where they are, within the pre 67 borders?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:48:15 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:09:39 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:03:32 PM
Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.
So did Hamas have the right under the new rules of war to execute Shalit?
NO. Shalit was a captured soldier, protected under the Geneva convention.

Quote
What about torture? Does Israel have the right to torture prisoners?
As much right as Hamas and Fatah have. Guess who uses torture more on palestinians. I'll give you a clue, it isn't Israel.

Quote
Does Hizballah have the right under the new rules of war to starve Jewish prisoners to death?
No one has the right to starve any prisoners to death, but if a prisoner goes on hunger strike, then he can bloody well starve.

Why do you hold Israel to a higher standard of human rights than the palestinians. If you were as concerned about palestinian rights as you are about being anti Israeli then you would be more concerned about getting rid of Hamas and Fatah who you know fine rightly are bleeding them dry.


I've a question for you. Do you believe the state of Israel has the right to stay where they are, within the pre 67 borders?
[/quote]I do. Pay compensation to the Palestinians and fire away.
Those people have been there for a while now and they have nowhere else to go. The kids there now- it is not their fault their grandparents ethnically cleansed the natives in 1948.
But they have to stop blackguarding the Palestinians.

And the settlers can f**k off.

Israel has signed international treaties on human rights and it's rich and calls itself a democracy and it's OECD and Peres told the president of Cameroon that "a Jews and apartheid do not go together" so it's right to hold it to its commitments.   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 10:24:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 13, 2013, 09:28:57 PM
Where did I say that a knife wasn't a lethal weapon? You avoided the question I asked I notice. Do you mind if I ask you another question - how do you come to know so much about Israel/Palestinian relations. To you go there?
Plain and simple, no, they have not targetted civilians. They have killed civilians while targetting terrorists, and that is a complete and utter tragedy and a shame, but I don't believe they have deliberately targetted civilians. It does nothing to advance their aims or desires. Why would they? I believe they need to be more sure of their intelligence before ordering a strike, but you can never be 100% sure when you fire a missile. Israel is hampered by the fact that palestinian terrorists embed themselves in civilian buildings as a means of defense and are well known for using women and children as  human shields.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 10:30:59 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 10:24:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 13, 2013, 09:28:57 PM
Where did I say that a knife wasn't a lethal weapon? You avoided the question I asked I notice. Do you mind if I ask you another question - how do you come to know so much about Israel/Palestinian relations. To you go there?
Plain and simple, no, they have not targetted civilians. They have killed civilians while targetting terrorists, and that is a complete and utter tragedy and a shame, but I don't believe they have deliberately targetted civilians. It does nothing to advance their aims or desires. Why would they? I believe they need to be more sure of their intelligence before ordering a strike, but you can never be 100% sure when you fire a missile. Israel is hampered by the fact that palestinian terrorists embed themselves in civilian buildings as a means of defense and are well known for using women and children as  human shields.
Bollocks. They kill an awful lot of civilians, Beaver. And they have the finest tech in the world. And they are all accidents are they?
I'm sorry. That is just ridiculous.

An awful lot of Palestinian kids are shot in the head rather the legs, you know. The best thing would be an international inquiry to get to the truth. Would you support one?   
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 10:38:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:48:15 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:09:39 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 09:03:32 PM
Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.
So did Hamas have the right under the new rules of war to execute Shalit?
NO. Shalit was a captured soldier, protected under the Geneva convention.

Quote
What about torture? Does Israel have the right to torture prisoners?
As much right as Hamas and Fatah have. Guess who uses torture more on palestinians. I'll give you a clue, it isn't Israel.

Quote
Does Hizballah have the right under the new rules of war to starve Jewish prisoners to death?
No one has the right to starve any prisoners to death, but if a prisoner goes on hunger strike, then he can bloody well starve.
Quote
Why do you hold Israel to a higher standard of human rights than the palestinians. If you were as concerned about palestinian rights as you are about being anti Israeli then you would be more concerned about getting rid of Hamas and Fatah who you know fine rightly are bleeding them dry.


I've a question for you. Do you believe the state of Israel has the right to stay where they are, within the pre 67 borders?
I do. Pay compensation to the Palestinians and fire away.
Those people have been there for a while now and they have nowhere else to go. The kids there now- it is not their fault their grandparents ethnically cleansed the natives in 1948.
But they have to stop blackguarding the Palestinians.
The problem with that is that Hamas and Fatah have stated many times that palestine is from the Jordan to the sea. All of Israel as well as PA. They won't tolerate any jews in their palestine.

Quote
And the settlers can f**k off.
Correct. I've never been in favour of the settlements, but it doesn't give palestinians the right to murder them in their beds.

Quote
Israel has signed international treaties on human rights and it's rich and calls itself a democracy and it's OECD and Peres told the president of Cameroon that "a Jews and apartheid do not go together" so it's right to hold it to its commitments.
Yet palestinians aren't expected to honour their commitments to peace.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 10:53:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 13, 2013, 10:30:59 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 13, 2013, 10:24:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 13, 2013, 09:28:57 PM
Where did I say that a knife wasn't a lethal weapon? You avoided the question I asked I notice. Do you mind if I ask you another question - how do you come to know so much about Israel/Palestinian relations. To you go there?
Plain and simple, no, they have not targetted civilians. They have killed civilians while targetting terrorists, and that is a complete and utter tragedy and a shame, but I don't believe they have deliberately targetted civilians. It does nothing to advance their aims or desires. Why would they? I believe they need to be more sure of their intelligence before ordering a strike, but you can never be 100% sure when you fire a missile. Israel is hampered by the fact that palestinian terrorists embed themselves in civilian buildings as a means of defense and are well known for using women and children as  human shields.
Bollocks. They kill an awful lot of civilians, Beaver. And they have the finest tech in the world. And they are all accidents are they?
I'm sorry. That is just ridiculous.

An awful lot of Palestinian kids are shot in the head rather the legs, you know. The best thing would be an international inquiry to get to the truth. Would you support one?

The finest tech in the world is only as good as it's weakest link, which is intelligence. If palestinian informers are giving wrong or out of date information, then mistakes are going to happen unfortunately.
An awful lot of palestinians throw an awful lot of rocks and petrol bombs. They are trying to kill the soldiers and jews they are attacking, and the soldiers and jews have every right to defend themselves. If someone was to throw a petrol bomb at me while I was armed, I'm going to blow the cnut away. What would you do, disarm them? Ask them politely to stop. If you'd ever fired a semi automatic weapon you'd know that trying to hit a target in the legs is a hell of a shot. Shooting a moving target isn't like in cowboy films.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 08:45:36 AM
Beaver

"An awful lot of palestinians throw an awful lot of rocks and petrol bombs. They are trying to kill the soldiers and jews they are attacking, and the soldiers and jews have every right to defend themselves. If someone was to throw a petrol bomb at me while I was armed, I'm going to blow the cnut away. What would you do, disarm them? Ask them politely to stop. If you'd ever fired a semi automatic weapon you'd know that trying to hit a target in the legs is a hell of a shot. Shooting a moving target isn't like in cowboy films."

Do you think Israeli violence and the deliberate targeting of civilians is an effective policy? 
Do you think it makes sense for Israel to build more homes for settlers in the West Bank ?
Where do you think Israel is going with all of this? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 02:32:20 PM
A civilian is someone who takes no part in attacks. Anyone throwing rocks or a petrol bomb is trying to severely injure/kill someone and has given up the right to be described as civilian.

You already know what I think about settlements.

Do you condone the palestinian tactic of sending children out to riot, in the full knowledge that they are likely to be shot?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 15, 2013, 01:34:54 PM
(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Hansen_zps7920d90d.jpg)


A photograph of two dead children, who were killed in an Israeli missile strike near Gaza City, won the top World Press Photo prize on Friday for Swedish photographer Paul Hansen of newspaper Dagens Nyheter.

The photograph shows a group of men bearing the bodies of two-year-old Suhaib Hijazi and her brother Muhammad, 3, as they were taken to the mosque for a burial ceremony. Their parents were killed in the same strike.

"The strength of the picture lies in the way it contrasts the anger and sorrow of the adults with the innocence of the children," Mayu Mohanna, a member of the jury, said of the photograph which was named World Press Photo of the Year 2012.

Ammar Awad of Reuters received an honorable mention in the General News single category for his photograph "Israeli Border Police Pepper spray Palestinian Protester".

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=565531

A very striking photo don't you think. But what's wrong with it? Surely it isn't photoshopped...........................


Exposed: Award Winning Gaza Image was Photoshopped  
May 14, 2013 14:22by Simon Plosker


It turns out that the 2013 World Press Photo of the Year — the largest and most prestigious press photography award — was, in actual fact, a fake. The World Press Photo association hasn't yet stripped the photographer, Paul Hansen, of the title, but presumably it's just a matter of time. Rather than discussing the politics of photo manipulation, though — is it faked, or is it merely enhanced? — we're going to look at how Hansen managed to trick a panel of experienced judges with his shooping skillz, and how a seasoned computer scientist spotted the fraudulent forgery from a mile off.

The photo, dubbed Gaza Burial, was purportedly captured on November 20, 2012 by Paul Hansen. Hansen was in Gaza City when Israeli forces retaliated in response to rocket fire from Palestinian rocket fire. The photo shows two of the casualties of the Israeli attack, carried to their funeral by their uncles. Now, the event itself isn't a fake — there are lots of other photos online that show the children being carried through the streets of Gaza — but the photo itself is almost certainly a composite of three different photos, with various regions spliced together from each of the images, and then further manipulation to illuminate the mourners' faces.

The remainder of the article reveals exactly how this was done.

There is no question that the funeral itself took place. But how many times have we seen the manipulation of images from the Middle East conflict?

In our Shattered Lens study of photo bias, we took a look at how the use of cropping and angles were used to create a dramatic perception of a funeral.

In general the study identified distortions of images that mostly fell into the following categories:
1.
Deliberate Staging

2.
Use of wide-angle lenses and photographer positions to make photos appear more dramatic than the reality

3.
Photographers choosing positions that affect the events they are shooting

4.
Editorializing in photo captions.


In the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict, manipulating photos to create a dramatic perception goes far beyond a simple touch up of a nature scene or the removal of red eye from a family portrait. Images are, arguably, more powerful than any headline or text in an article and leave a deep and lasting impression.

When it comes to reporting of Israel, those impressions are important in how the world views the country.


The World Press Photo Association should immediately revoke Paul Hansen's award and demonstrate that unethical and unprofessional photography is unacceptable.


http://honestreporting.com/exposed-award-winning-gaza-image-was-photoshopped/

I was just posting last night about palestinian propoganda, and lo and behold..........................

Virtually every news item that comes out of Gaza is manipulated to show Israel in the worst light possible. Palestinians are renowned for their acting skills and will use anything they can to exaggerate the suffering they endure.


PALLYWOOD
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 03:07:36 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 02:32:20 PM
A civilian is someone who takes no part in attacks.
You already know what I think about settlements.

Do you condone the palestinian tactic of sending children out to riot, in the full knowledge that they are likely to be shot?
Anyone throwing rocks or a petrol bomb is trying to severely injure/kill someone and has given up the right to be described as civilian.

Says who?
I don't believe shoot to kill is effective as a policy.  I didn't work in the North.
I think Palestinians are entitled to demonstrate for their rights. Even peaceful protestors are shot at. Very poor form ,really, from the Israelis. But what would you expect, I suppose.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 03:09:38 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 15, 2013, 01:34:54 PM
(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/Hansen_zps7920d90d.jpg)


A photograph of two dead children, who were killed in an Israeli missile strike near Gaza City, won the top World Press Photo prize on Friday for Swedish photographer Paul Hansen of newspaper Dagens Nyheter.

The photograph shows a group of men bearing the bodies of two-year-old Suhaib Hijazi and her brother Muhammad, 3, as they were taken to the mosque for a burial ceremony. Their parents were killed in the same strike.

"The strength of the picture lies in the way it contrasts the anger and sorrow of the adults with the innocence of the children," Mayu Mohanna, a member of the jury, said of the photograph which was named World Press Photo of the Year 2012.

Ammar Awad of Reuters received an honorable mention in the General News single category for his photograph "Israeli Border Police Pepper spray Palestinian Protester".

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=565531

A very striking photo don't you think. But what's wrong with it? Surely it isn't photoshopped...........................


Exposed: Award Winning Gaza Image was Photoshopped  
May 14, 2013 14:22by Simon Plosker


It turns out that the 2013 World Press Photo of the Year — the largest and most prestigious press photography award — was, in actual fact, a fake. The World Press Photo association hasn't yet stripped the photographer, Paul Hansen, of the title, but presumably it's just a matter of time. Rather than discussing the politics of photo manipulation, though — is it faked, or is it merely enhanced? — we're going to look at how Hansen managed to trick a panel of experienced judges with his shooping skillz, and how a seasoned computer scientist spotted the fraudulent forgery from a mile off.

The photo, dubbed Gaza Burial, was purportedly captured on November 20, 2012 by Paul Hansen. Hansen was in Gaza City when Israeli forces retaliated in response to rocket fire from Palestinian rocket fire. The photo shows two of the casualties of the Israeli attack, carried to their funeral by their uncles. Now, the event itself isn't a fake — there are lots of other photos online that show the children being carried through the streets of Gaza — but the photo itself is almost certainly a composite of three different photos, with various regions spliced together from each of the images, and then further manipulation to illuminate the mourners' faces.

The remainder of the article reveals exactly how this was done.

There is no question that the funeral itself took place. But how many times have we seen the manipulation of images from the Middle East conflict?

In our Shattered Lens study of photo bias, we took a look at how the use of cropping and angles were used to create a dramatic perception of a funeral.

In general the study identified distortions of images that mostly fell into the following categories:
1.
Deliberate Staging

2.
Use of wide-angle lenses and photographer positions to make photos appear more dramatic than the reality

3.
Photographers choosing positions that affect the events they are shooting

4.
Editorializing in photo captions.


In the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict, manipulating photos to create a dramatic perception goes far beyond a simple touch up of a nature scene or the removal of red eye from a family portrait. Images are, arguably, more powerful than any headline or text in an article and leave a deep and lasting impression.

When it comes to reporting of Israel, those impressions are important in how the world views the country.


The World Press Photo Association should immediately revoke Paul Hansen's award and demonstrate that unethical and unprofessional photography is unacceptable.


http://honestreporting.com/exposed-award-winning-gaza-image-was-photoshopped/

I was just posting last night about palestinian propoganda, and lo and behold..........................

Virtually every news item that comes out of Gaza is manipulated to show Israel in the worst light possible. Palestinians are renowned for their acting skills and will use anything they can to exaggerate the suffering they endure.


PALLYWOOD
Were the children not dead?
Did Israel resurrect them? 

What sort of picture of this funeral could have portrayed Israel in a positive light, Beaver? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 03:14:30 PM
Obviously you missed the line in the article which stated

QuoteThere is no question that the funeral itself took place. But how many times have we seen the manipulation of images from the Middle East conflict?

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 03:20:00 PM
I was going to wait for final confirmation about this one, but seeing as we're on the subject..........

If you have any information to the contrary, I'd love to see it. It's funny how there were no photos of the funeral or the body, as is usual for this type of story.




Al-Dura Wasn't Even Hurt: Truth Set to be Revealed  
May 13, 2013 9:54by Simon Plosker

In what could be a significant turn of events the Jerusalem Post reports:

Not only was 12-year-old Gazan Muhammad al-Dura not killed by IDF fire in 2000 – he was not even hurt.

That was the preliminary finding of a special committee formed several years ago by Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon and headed by Brig.- Gen. (res.) Yossi Kuperwasser, the former head of the Research and Analysis Division of the IDF Military Intelligence Directorate, and the current director-general of the Strategic Affairs Ministry.

...

In the meantime, 13 years have passed, during which various and sundry conspiracy theories have been suggested, including claims that the boy was never even injured.

A few days ago, MK Nachman Shai met with Ya'alon to give him a copy of his new book, Media War Reaching for Hearts and Minds , which deals with the role of media in current military conflicts, including the Dura affair. Ya'alon then surprised Shai by saying that an investigation carried out by Israel shows that Dura was never hurt.

This theory has been circulating on the Internet for a few years already, but this was the first time that an Israeli defense minister was stating so publicly.

Today, Dura should be about 25-years-old, alive and kicking somewhere (unless he was killed later in a separate incident).

Kuperwasser confirmed the committee's conclusion that that Dura had not been hurt at all and that the video clip, which was filmed by France 2 TV and aired around the world, had indeed been staged. This means that the France 2 TV channel report was erroneous, perhaps even knowingly.

Kuperwasser added that the full results of the investigation would be ready in the near future, and that most of the work had already been completed.

To recall, Al-Dura was the "poster boy" of the so-called Second Intifada and the libel of Israeli responsibility for his death and the iconic imagery of the incident have had a major impact on subsequent events and Israel's image in the media.

We believe that we must never give up trying to find out the truth, even 13 years after the incident, and the same applies to all of those times when Israel has been falsely accused in the media.
We look forward to seeing the full report in the near future and to see if the mainstream media and France 2 in particular, will finally acknowledge their part in propagating a libel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 03:30:03 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 03:20:00 PM
I was going to wait for final confirmation about this one, but seeing as we're on the subject..........

If you have any information to the contrary, I'd love to see it. It's funny how there were no photos of the funeral or the body, as is usual for this type of story.




Al-Dura Wasn't Even Hurt: Truth Set to be Revealed  
May 13, 2013 9:54by Simon Plosker

In what could be a significant turn of events the Jerusalem Post reports:

Not only was 12-year-old Gazan Muhammad al-Dura not killed by IDF fire in 2000 – he was not even hurt.

That was the preliminary finding of a special committee formed several years ago by Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon and headed by Brig.- Gen. (res.) Yossi Kuperwasser, the former head of the Research and Analysis Division of the IDF Military Intelligence Directorate, and the current director-general of the Strategic Affairs Ministry.

...

In the meantime, 13 years have passed, during which various and sundry conspiracy theories have been suggested, including claims that the boy was never even injured.

A few days ago, MK Nachman Shai met with Ya'alon to give him a copy of his new book, Media War Reaching for Hearts and Minds , which deals with the role of media in current military conflicts, including the Dura affair. Ya'alon then surprised Shai by saying that an investigation carried out by Israel shows that Dura was never hurt.

This theory has been circulating on the Internet for a few years already, but this was the first time that an Israeli defense minister was stating so publicly.

Today, Dura should be about 25-years-old, alive and kicking somewhere (unless he was killed later in a separate incident).

Kuperwasser confirmed the committee's conclusion that that Dura had not been hurt at all and that the video clip, which was filmed by France 2 TV and aired around the world, had indeed been staged. This means that the France 2 TV channel report was erroneous, perhaps even knowingly.

Kuperwasser added that the full results of the investigation would be ready in the near future, and that most of the work had already been completed.

To recall, Al-Dura was the "poster boy" of the so-called Second Intifada and the libel of Israeli responsibility for his death and the iconic imagery of the incident have had a major impact on subsequent events and Israel's image in the media.


We look forward to seeing the full report in the near future and to see if the mainstream media and France 2 in particular, will finally acknowledge their part in propagating a libel.

You need a cup of tea and a nice sit down, Beaver.
Your critical faculties are malfunctioning.

Ad Durra was only one of 1519 Palestinian kids murdered by the Jewish state since 2000.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: dec on May 14, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 03:51:55 PM
Quote from: dec on May 14, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.
The whole Israeli argument is nuts. They moan about photoshopping while the whole point of the photos was the kids they killed.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 03:57:49 PM
Quote from: dec on May 14, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.
Which is why I was reluctant to post this story up yesterday when it broke. Unlike some on here, I like to know that any links I put up are true.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 03:59:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 03:51:55 PM
Quote from: dec on May 14, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.
The whole Israeli argument is nuts. They moan about photoshopping while the whole point of the photos was the kids they killed.

No, the whole point of the photos is the way they were portrayed, not the subject matter.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 04:17:25 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 03:59:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 03:51:55 PM
Quote from: dec on May 14, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155617-how-the-2013-world-press-photo-of-the-year-was-faked-with-photoshop

I see that the guy who analysed the photo is starting to back away from his claim that it was a composite picture.
"Updated @ 7:09am 5/13: The language about the final image being a composite of three separate images has been softened slightly."

And here is the prize winning picture compared with an earlier version.
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gunthert/8485283411/sizes/o/
The prize winning picture is clearly not a composite it has just has the contrast and colour balance changed, in other words doing to a digital image with Photoshop what photographers have done for decades in the dark room.
The whole Israeli argument is nuts. They moan about photoshopping while the whole point of the photos was the kids they killed.



No, the whole point of the photos is the way they were portrayed, not the subject matter.

You obviously don't understand the non Jewish view of Israel.
Making a song and dance about photo shopping when the issue is Israel's lack of concern for human life.

A customer enters a photoshop.
Customer: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(Beaver does not respond.)
C: 'Ello, Miss?
Beaver : What do you mean "miss"?
C: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
B: We're closin' for lunch.
C: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this Palestinian child in the picture
B: Oh yes, the, uh, the Palestinian. I think it was photoshopped.
C: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
B: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's photoshopped 
C: Look, matey, I know a dead child when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
B: No no he's not dead, he's, he's photoshopped ! Remarkable technique, photoshop, idn'it, ay? Beautiful light !
C: The light don't enter into it. It's a stone dead child .
O: Nononono, no, no! 'E's alive!
C: All right then, if he's alive, I'll wake him up!
(shouting at the photo )
'Ello, child  I've got a lovely bagel for you if you show...(owner hits the photo )
B: There, he moved!
C: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the photo !
B: I never!!
C: Yes, you did!
B: I never, never did anything...
C: (yelling and hitting the Photo repeatedly) 'ELLO PALLY!!!!!
Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Thumps photo on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
C: Now that's what I call a dead child .
B: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
C: STUNNED?!?
B: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Gaza children stun easily, major.
C: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That child is definitely deceased, and when I viewed the picture  not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged sleep
B: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for Jerusalem s.
C: PININ' for Jerusalem ?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he die
C: The Gaza children prefer kippin' on their backs! Remarkable kids, id'nit, squire?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 04:34:09 PM
You're wasted in Pallywood.  ;D

Any photographer will tell you that the way a photo is framed means a hell of a lot more than the subject matter of the photo. A photo of an open flower with the background blank gathers a whole new meaning and resonanse when it has a background of a wasteland or batlefield for example. The angle, size, shape, colour, framing background and everything around the subject has just as much impact on the photo as the subject.



Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 04:41:03 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 04:34:09 PM
You're wasted in Pallywood.  ;D

Any photographer will tell you that the way a photo is framed means a hell of a lot more than the subject matter of the photo. A photo of an open flower with the background blank gathers a whole new meaning and resonanse when it has a background of a wasteland or batlefield for example. The angle, size, shape, colour, framing background and everything around the subject has just as much impact on the photo as the subject.
Tell us again what technical aspect could have made this photo pro Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 05:00:47 PM
BTW beaver when you get a minute can you prove Mohamed ad Durra was not murdered by Israel?
where does he live now and throw up a few photos as well while you are at it.

I think the Zionist refusal to accept what happened is really fascinating.Like Israel gives a flying f**k about dead kids.  1519 since 2000.
But they can't let the Ad Durra story go for some reason.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 05:57:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 05:00:47 PM
BTW beaver when you get a minute can you prove Mohamed ad Durra was not murdered by Israel?
where does he live now and throw up a few photos as well while you are at it.

I think the Zionist refusal to accept what happened is really fascinating.Like Israel gives a flying f**k about dead kids.  1519 since 2000.
But they can't let the Ad Durra story go for some reason.

The article is too long to post. Here are some extracts.

QuoteTo watch the raw footage is to wonder, repeatedly, What is going on here? In some scenes groups of Palestinians duck for cover from gunfire while others nonchalantly talk or smoke just five feet away. At one dramatic moment a Palestinian man dives forward clutching his leg, as if shot in the thigh. An ambulance somehow arrives to collect him exactly two seconds later, before he has stopped rolling from the momentum of his fall. Another man is loaded into an ambulance—and, in footage from a different TV camera, appears to jump out of it again some minutes later.

QuoteAt around 3:00 P.M. Mohammed al-Dura and his father make their first appearance on film. The time can be judged by later comments from the father and some journalists on the scene, and by the length of shadows in the footage. Despite the number of cameras that were running that day, Mohammed and Jamal al-Dura appear in the footage of only one cameraman—Talal Abu-Rahma, a Palestinian working for France 2.

Jamal al-Dura later said that he had taken his son to a used-car market and was on the way back when he passed through the crossroads and into the crossfire. When first seen on tape, father and son are both crouched on the sidewalk behind a large concrete cylinder, their backs against the wall. The cylinder, about three feet high, is referred to as "the barrel" in most discussions of the case, although it appears to be a section from a culvert or a sewer system. On top of the cylinder is a big paving stone, which adds another eight inches or so of protection. The al-Duras were on the corner diagonally opposite the Israeli outpost. By hiding behind the barrel they were doing exactly what they should have done to protect themselves from Israeli fire.

Many news accounts later claimed that the two were under fire for forty-five minutes, but the action captured on camera lasts a very brief time. Jamal looks around desperately. Mohammed slides down behind him, as if to make his body disappear behind his father's. Jamal clutches a pack of cigarettes in his left hand, while he alternately waves and cradles his son with his right. The sound of gunfire is heard, and four bullet holes appear in the wall just to the left of the pair. The father starts yelling. There is another burst. Mohammed goes limp and falls forward across his father's lap, his shirt stained with blood. Jamal, too, is hit, and his head starts bobbling. The camera cuts away. Although France 2 or its cameraman may have footage that it or he has chosen not to release, no other visual record of the shooting or its immediate aftermath is known to exist. Other Palestinian casualties of the day are shown being evacuated, but there is no known on-tape evidence of the boy's being picked up, tended to, loaded into an ambulance, or handled in any other way after he was shot.

The footage of the shooting is unforgettable, and it illustrates the way in which television transforms reality. I have seen it replayed at least a hundred times now, and on each repetition I can't help hoping that this time the boy will get himself down low enough, this time the shots will miss. Through the compression involved in editing the footage for a news report, the scene acquired a clear story line by the time European, American, and Middle Eastern audiences saw it on television: Palestinians throw rocks. Israeli soldiers, from the slits in their outpost, shoot back. A little boy is murdered.

What is known about the rest of the day is fragmentary and additionally confusing. A report from a nearby hospital says that a dead boy was admitted on September 30, with two gun wounds to the left side of his torso. But according to the photocopy I saw, the report also says that the boy was admitted at 1:00 P.M.; the tape shows that Mohammed was shot later in the afternoon. The doctor's report also notes, without further explanation, that the dead boy had a cut down his belly about eight inches long. A boy's body, wrapped in a Palestinian flag but with his face exposed, was later carried through the streets to a burial site (the exact timing is in dispute). The face looks very much like Mohammed's in the video footage. Thousands of mourners lined the route. A BBC TV report on the funeral began, "A Palestinian boy has been martyred." Many of the major U.S. news organizations reported that the funeral was held on the evening of September 30, a few hours after the shooting. Oddly, on film the procession appears to take place in full sunlight, with shadows indicative of midday.

QuoteIn the fall of last year Gabriel Weimann mentioned the Mohammed al-Dura case in a special course that he teaches at the Israeli Military Academy, National Security and Mass Media. Like most adults in Israel, Weimann, a tall, athletic-looking man in his early fifties, still performs up to thirty days of military-reserve duty a year. His reserve rank is sergeant, whereas the students in his class are lieutenant colonels and above.

To underscore the importance of the media in international politics, Weimann shows some of his students a montage of famous images from past wars: for World War II the flag raising at Iwo Jima; for Vietnam the South Vietnamese officer shooting a prisoner in the head and the little girl running naked down a path with napalm on her back. For the current intifada, Weimann told his students, the lasting iconic image would be the frightened face of Mohammed al-Dura.

One day last fall, after he discussed the images, a student spoke up. "I was there," he said. "We didn't do it."

"Prove it," Weimann said. He assigned part of the class, as its major research project, a reconsideration of the evidence in the case. A surprisingly large amount was available. The students began by revisiting an investigation undertaken by the Israeli military soon after the event.

Shortly after the shooting General Samia was contacted by Nahum Shahaf, a physicist and engineer who had worked closely with the IDF on the design of pilotless drone aircraft. While watching the original news broadcasts of the shooting Shahaf had been alarmed, like most viewers inside and outside Israel. But he had also noticed an apparent anomaly. The father seemed to be concerned mainly about a threat originating on the far side of the barrel behind which he had taken shelter. Yet when he and his son were shot, the barrel itself seemed to be intact. What, exactly, did this mean?

QuoteSamia commissioned Shahaf and an engineer, Yosef Duriel, to work on a second IDF investigation of the case. "The reason from my side is to check and clean up our values," Samia later told Bob Simon, of CBS. He said he wanted "to see that we are still acting as the IDF." Shahaf stressed to Samia that the IDF should do whatever it could to preserve all physical evidence. But because so much intifada activity continued in the Netzarim area, the IDF demolished the wall and all related structures. Shahaf took one trip to examine the crossroads, clad in body armor and escorted by Israeli soldiers. Then, at a location near Beersheba, Shahaf, Duriel, and others set up models of the barrel, the wall, and the IDF shooting position, in order to re-enact the crucial events.

Bullets had not been recovered from the boy's body at the hospital, and the family was hardly willing to agree to an exhumation to re-examine the wounds. Thus the most important piece of physical evidence was the concrete barrel. In the TV footage it clearly bears a mark from the Israeli Bureau of Standards, which enabled investigators to determine its exact dimensions and composition. When they placed the equivalent in front of a concrete wall and put mannequins representing father and son behind it, a conclusion emerged: soldiers in the Israeli outpost could not have fired the shots whose impact was shown on TV. The evidence was cumulative and reinforcing. It involved the angle, the barrel, the indentations, and the dust.

Mohammed al-Dura and his father looked as if they were sheltering themselves against fire from the IDF outpost. In this they were successful. The films show that the barrel was between them and the Israeli guns. The line of sight from the IDF position to the pair was blocked by concrete. Conceivably, some other Israeli soldier was present and fired from some other angle, although there is no evidence of this and no one has ever raised it as a possibility; and there were Palestinians in all the other places, who would presumably have noticed the presence of additional IDF troops. From the one location where Israeli soldiers are known to have been, the only way to hit the boy would have been to shoot through the concrete barrel.

This brings us to the nature of the barrel. Its walls were just under two inches thick. On the test range investigators fired M-16 bullets at a similar barrel. Each bullet made an indentation only two fifths to four fifths of an inch deep. Penetrating the barrel would have required multiple hits on both sides of the barrel's wall. The videos of the shooting show fewer than ten indentations on the side of the barrel facing the IDF, indicating that at some point in the day's exchanges of fire the Israelis did shoot at the barrel. But photographs taken after the shooting show no damage of any kind on the side of the barrel facing the al-Duras—that is, no bullets went through.

Further evidence involves the indentations in the concrete wall. The bullet marks that appear so ominously in the wall seconds before the fatal volley are round. Their shape is significant because of what it indicates about the angle of the gunfire. The investigators fired volleys into a concrete wall from a variety of angles. They found that in order to produce a round puncture mark, they had to fire more or less straight on. The more oblique the angle, the more elongated and skidlike the hole became.

The dust resulting from a bullet's impact followed similar rules. A head-on shot produced the smallest, roundest cloud of dust. The more oblique the angle, the larger and longer the cloud of dust. In the video of the shooting the clouds of dust near the al-Duras' heads are small and round. Shots from the IDF outpost would necessarily have been oblique.

QuoteIn short, the physical evidence of the shooting was in all ways inconsistent with shots coming from the IDF outpost—and in all ways consistent with shots coming from someplace behind the France 2 cameraman, roughly in the location of the Pita. Making a positive case for who might have shot the boy was not the business of the investigators hired by the IDF. They simply wanted to determine whether the soldiers in the outpost were responsible. Because the investigation was overseen by the IDF and run wholly by Israelis, it stood no chance of being taken seriously in the Arab world. But its fundamental point—that the concrete barrel lay between the outpost and the boy, and no bullets had gone through the barrel—could be confirmed independently from news footage.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 06:08:38 PM
QuoteThe reasons to doubt that the al-Duras, the cameramen, and hundreds of onlookers were part of a coordinated fraud are obvious. Shahaf's evidence for this conclusion, based on his videos, is essentially an accumulation of oddities and unanswered questions about the chaotic events of the day. Why is there no footage of the boy after he was shot? Why does he appear to move in his father's lap, and to clasp a hand over his eyes after he is supposedly dead? Why is one Palestinian policeman wearing a Secret Service-style earpiece in one ear? Why is another Palestinian man shown waving his arms and yelling at others, as if "directing" a dramatic scene? Why does the funeral appear—based on the length of shadows—to have occurred before the apparent time of the shooting? Why is there no blood on the father's shirt just after they are shot? Why did a voice that seems to be that of the France 2 cameraman yell, in Arabic, "The boy is dead" before he had been hit? Why do ambulances appear instantly for seemingly everyone else and not for al-Dura?

A handful of Israeli and foreign commentators have taken up Shahaf's cause. A Web site called masada2000.org says of the IDF's initial apology, "They acknowledged guilt, for never in their collective minds would any one of them have imagined a scenario whereby Mohammed al-Dura might have been murdered by his own people ... a cruel plot staged and executed by Palestinian sharp-shooters and a television cameraman!" Amnon Lord, writing for the magazine Makor Rishon, referred to a German documentary directed by Esther Schapira that was "based on Shahaf's own decisive conclusion" and that determined "that Muhammad Al-Dura was not killed by IDF gunfire at Netzarim junction." "Rather," Lord continued, "the Palestinians, in cooperation with foreign journalists and the UN, arranged a well-staged production of his death." In March of this year a French writer, Gérard Huber, published a book called Contre expertise d'une mise en scène (roughly, Re-evaluation of a Re-enactment). It, too, argues that the entire event was staged. In an e-mail message to me Huber said that before knowing of Shahaf's studies he had been aware that "the images of little Mohammed were part of the large war of images between Palestinians and Israelis." But until meeting Shahaf, he said, "I had not imagined that it involved a fiction"—a view he now shares. "The question of 'Who killed little Mohammed?'" he said, "has become a screen to disguise the real question, which is: 'Was little Mohammed actually killed?'"

The truth about this case will probably never be determined. Or, to put it more precisely, no version of truth that is considered believable by all sides will ever emerge. For most of the Arab world, the rights and wrongs of the case are beyond dispute: an innocent boy was murdered, and his blood is on Israel's hands. Mention of contrary evidence or hypotheses only confirms the bottomless dishonesty of the guilty parties—much as Holocaust-denial theories do in the Western world. For the handful of people collecting evidence of a staged event, the truth is also clear, even if the proof is not in hand. I saw Nahum Shahaf lose his good humor only when I asked him what he thought explained the odd timing of the boy's funeral, or the contradictions in eyewitness reports, or the other loose ends in the case. "I don't 'think,' I know!" he said several times. "I am a physicist. I work from the evidence." Schapira had collaborated with him for the German documentary and then produced a film advancing the "minimum" version of his case, showing that the shots did not, could not have, come from the IDF outpost. She disappointed him by not embracing the maximum version—the all-encompassing hoax—and counseled him not to talk about a staged event unless he could produce a living boy or a cooperative eyewitness. Shahaf said that he still thought well of her, and that he was not discouraged. "I am only two and a half years into this work," he told me. "It took twelve years for the truth of the Dreyfus case to come out."

For anyone else who knows about Mohammed al-Dura but is not in either of the decided camps—the Arabs who are sure they know what happened, the revisionists who are equally sure—the case will remain in the uncomfortable realm of events that cannot be fully explained or understood. "Maybe it was an accidental shooting," Gabriel Weimann told me, after reading his students' report, which, like the German documentary, supported the "minimum" conclusion—the Israeli soldiers at the outpost could not have killed the boy. (He could not show the report to me, he said, on grounds of academic confidentiality.) "Maybe even it was staged—although I don't think my worst enemy is so inhuman as to shoot a boy for the sake of publicity. Beyond that, I do not know." Weimann's recent work involves the way that television distorts reality in attempting to reconstruct it, by putting together loosely related or even random events in what the viewer imagines is a coherent narrative flow. The contrast between the confusing, contradictory hours of raw footage from the Netzarim crossroads and the clear, gripping narrative of the evening news reports assembled from that footage is a perfect example, he says.

The significance of this case from the American perspective involves the increasingly chaotic ecology of truth around the world. In Arab and Islamic societies the widespread belief that Israeli soldiers shot this boy has political consequences. So does the belief among some Israelis and Zionists in Israel and abroad that Palestinians will go to any lengths to smear them. Obviously, these beliefs do not create the basic tensions in the Middle East. The Israeli policy of promoting settlements in occupied territory, and the Palestinian policy of terror, are deeper obstacles. There would never have been a showdown at the Netzarim crossroads, or any images of Mohammed al-Dura's shooting to be parsed in different ways, if there were no settlement nearby for IDF soldiers to protect. Gabriel Weimann is to the left of Dan Schueftan on Israel's political spectrum, but both believe that Israel should end its occupation. I would guess that Nahum Shahaf thinks the same thing, even though he told me that to preserve his "independence" as a researcher, he wanted to "isolate myself from any kind of political question."

The images intensify the self-righteous determination of each side. If anything, modern technology has aggravated the problem of mutually exclusive realities. With the Internet and TV, each culture now has a more elaborate apparatus for "proving," dramatizing, and disseminating its particular truth.

In its engagement with the Arab world the United States has assumed that what it believes are noble motives will be perceived as such around the world. We mean the best for the people under our control; stability, democracy, prosperity, are our goals; why else would we have risked so much to help an oppressed people achieve them? The case of Mohammed al-Dura suggests the need for much more modest assumptions about the way other cultures—in particular today's embattled Islam—will perceive our truths.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/06/who-shot-mohammed-al-dura/302735/

It has been widely known for many years that Israel wasn't to blame for the boys "death" but it is the palestinians that continue to peddle the lie that he was murdered by IDF.

Would you like more?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 06:59:03 PM
For some reason this case was taken up by the jewish establishment. A rabidly zionist French jew brought it to court. Even though the IDF admitted responsibility. Show us the child did not die Beaver. You are unable to. Why is this case so.important compared to 1518 others? Possibly child murder by jewish soldiers. Ancient accusations. Very damaging .
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 07:03:16 PM
Oh sweet jesus and all the saints.


Prove to me that the tooth fairy exists. I demand photos and a sisgned confession.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on May 14, 2013, 07:37:50 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 07:03:16 PM
Oh sweet jesus and all the saints.


Prove to me that the tooth fairy exists. I demand photos and a sisgned confession.

You are a Catholic aren't you?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 08:05:48 PM
Not right now, no.

Is it a pre-requisite for posting?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2013, 10:11:13 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 07:03:16 PM
Oh sweet jesus and all the saints.


Prove to me that the tooth fairy exists. I demand photos and a sisgned confession.
if he wasn't hurt, prove it. I really.do.not understand what you are trying to do. So what if Israel killed him. He wasn't the first. It is not like zionism cares about Palestinian kids. The tooth fairy is a fabrication , like most of your stuff.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on May 15, 2013, 02:19:19 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/ct-oped-0514-occupation-20130514,0,1649848.story


Stop ignoring how routine the occupation has become

By Ori Nir
May 14, 2013

Israel TV Channel 2 recently ran a lengthy report of pre-dawn arrests of Palestinian children — rock-throwing suspects — at a West Bank Palestinian refugee camp. The TV crew was embedded with an Israeli unit that raided the camp.

No, there was no blood, no violent confrontations and no big drama. Everything was done routinely, efficiently, as if scripted. Including the polite soldiers ("please get dressed") and the business-as-usual reactions of tweens who moments ago were in bed and are now handcuffed and blindfolded, in a military jeep. One of them, a boy named Ahmad who seemed around 10, tried to negotiate. "Tomorrow I have an exam. I will be thrown out of school if I don't take the test," he tried to reason with the soldiers. "Had you come any other day, I would have gone with you. Please!" Then he manned up and joined the soldiers.

So what's new? What's the big deal, my wife asked me when I told her about the report. That's exactly the point, I replied. The big deal is that there is nothing new, that this routine has been going on for 46 years. My wife and I, both former reporters, reminisced about covering such night raids together, more than 26 years ago.

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Next month, Israelis and Palestinians will mark the 46th anniversary of the occupation. Think about it: For almost half a century, Israeli kids in their late teens have been arresting Palestinian kids in their early teens. Night in, night out, year after year. Guilty or not, justified or not, due process or not — these are not really the questions.

What bothers so many Palestinians and Israelis — among them the six former Israeli General Security Service chiefs who were interviewed for the award-winning documentary "The Gatekeepers" — is how routine it has all become. Israelis and Palestinians live with the perpetuation of the anomaly that the occupation is.

Consider this: Only 7 percent of Palestinians and 19 percent of Israelis are over the age of 55. That means that a small minority of both populations remembers life without occupation. Only a sliver of the Palestinian public has any recollection of not living under a foreign military occupation. For Palestinians, resisting the occupation — the only reality they know — is a way of life. For Israelis, oppressing the Palestinians is perceived at best as necessary evil. And so they both live with the banality of this anomaly.

Nissim Levi, a 20-year veteran of the Israeli GSS, several years ago described the impact of this routine. You go to a Palestinian village to arrest a suspect named Muhammed, he told Israel's Haaretz newspaper. "From the moment you leave for the village, to take the man and go, you create four more potential terrorists. ... You are entering a small room, in which five people are sleeping, and in order to get to my Muhammed, I need to step on four people." He continued: "On the way to enter the village to arrest someone, I already created damage."

How much damage? According to estimates by the Palestinian Authority's Bureau of Statistics, Israel has made more than 800,000 arrests of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza since 1967. That is an average of almost 50 arrests per day. Go calculate the damage.

Israelis and Palestinians know that their relationship is not normal. They should be shown, however, that it could be different, that things can change. President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry are now trying to launch a process that would do just that. They deserve our support.

Ori Nir is the spokesman of Americans for Peace Now, an American Jewish nonprofit that is the sister organization of Israel's Peace Now movement.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 05:08:33 AM
What's your solution, oh wise one? Ack sure its only a few rocks.
Children have been killed by rocks thrown at cars.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2013, 06:04:58 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 05:08:33 AM
What's your solution, oh wise one? Ack sure its only a few rocks.
Children have been killed by rocks thrown at cars.
The solution now is one man one vote. If Israelis don't like it they should get the settlers home.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on May 15, 2013, 12:39:28 PM
The Nakba is a past and a present, a continuous and developing process of Zionist colonization

Today marks the 65th anniversary of the historic ethnic cleansing of Palestine by the Zionist movement, and the establishment of the State of Israel on the rubble of hundreds of emptied, destroyed villages.

Nakba Day continues to grow in prominence as a time for remembrance and protest, an alternative history to the narrative of Israeli 'independence', and a reminder that the 'miracle' of a Jewish state was actually realised through the historically familiar methods of expulsion and colonial erasure. But this is more than just an anniversary or commemoration. In three important ways, the Nakba is not simply confined to the history books.

First, the Nakba is a defining event. Many potted histories or summaries of the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" cover 1948 with a sentence like this: 'The State of Israel declares independence and is immediately attacked by its Arab neighbours'. The Palestinian refugees emerge in the narrative as if by magic, or as a vague consequence of war.

Yet the ethnic cleansing of 1948 is the heart and soul of the Palestinian people's struggle. This is how a landscape was obliterated and communities destroyed; homes, schools and mosques disappearing under rolling explosions, citrus groves and fields of crops separated from their owners. Palestinian lives are shaped by the Nakba, from refugee camps and fragmented families to destroyed livelihoods and murdered loved ones.

The Nakba is how a Jewish majority was established in the first place, and thus it is no wonder that many people wish to consign it to 'the past'. For just as its impact is felt deeply in Palestinian society so also the Nakba is a defining event for Zionism and the State of Israel - the inconvenient truth that turns myths to dust, the reminder of - in the words of Meron Benvenisti - 'what lies beneath'. Nakba denial is commonplace, a history covered up by distortions and counterfactuals in the same way Jewish National Fund forests were planted over the rubble of Palestinian villages.

Second, the Nakba is also an ongoing event, and not just in the sense that the Palestinian refugees still await return and restitution. The Nakba is a past and a present, a continuous and developing process of Zionist colonization. You can see it in the discriminatory and colonial logic of the land regime and planning laws inside the pre-1967 lines, designed to maintain Jewish spatial hegemony and guard against the threat of the land being 'lost' to its indigenous people.

The admission committees that exclude Palestinians from the kibbutzim and moshavim built on top of ethnically cleansed villages. The 'look out' communities built by the state and the Jewish Agency in the Galilee in order to 'break up' areas of Palestinian territorial contiguity. Zionist forces often described Palestinian villages in 1948 as simply enemy bases to be cleansed. How little has changed, when the existence of Palestinian communities is seen as a threatening presence to be fragmented and watched over by Jewish citizens.

Catastrophes are experienced daily by Palestinians in the south Hebron Hills, Jordan Valley and East Jerusalem, when the bulldozers and soldiers arrive to demolish homes and shelters. More catastrophes are planned, in the name of 'development', 'security' or even 'tourism' - like in the Negev where, 65 years after soldiers pushed them into the 'Fence', Bedouin Palestinians face another mass expulsion.

Third, the Nakba is a paradigm-shaping event. Palestine is not about 1967, warring tribes, a family dispute, or religious fundamentalism. It's not about negotiations over a border dispute or 'confidence-building measures'. It's about settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing, about the establishment of an ethnocracy and the exclusion of an indigenous people. Decades before Oslo, before the first red-roofed settlement on the West Bank hilltops, before Hamas and the Quartet, the Catastrophe happened.

Having a Nakba-defined paradigm is not about 'intransigence' or wishing an impossible return to a long-lost past. It is about understanding the roots of what has unfolded over the decades - the establishment of a state for one people at the expense of another, the maintenance of a regime of privilege for some while excluding others to the point of destroying their very existence in the land. It is in the roots where we search most fruitfully for an answer: equality and return, a decolonized space and state that welcomes back and does not expel.

Finally, as a defining, ongoing, and paradigm-shaping event, the Nakba is also therefore, an urgent call to action. The Catastrophe must end.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/debate/6012-the-nakba-is-a-past-and-a-present-a-continuous-and-developing-process-of-zionist-colonization
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2013, 12:50:21 PM
Israel itself is now a Nakba
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 03:49:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 15, 2013, 06:04:58 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 05:08:33 AM
What's your solution, oh wise one? Ack sure its only a few rocks.
Children have been killed by rocks thrown at cars.
The solution now is one man one vote. If Israelis don't like it they should get the settlers home.

GHD can't answer, so his lap dog does his fighting for him. Coward.

I agree, get the settlers back into Israel.

I'm an Irishman but can't vote in an Irish election, should I go and buy a shit load of petrol and start a revolution? Should I start throwing bricks at cars going in to loyalist areas in the hope I might kill a  protestant kid for no other reason than "he's different to me?"
Should we creep into the bedrooms of planters and murder them in their beds because they shouldn't be here?
Should we attack Africans, Poles, Chinese or Asians just because they don't belong here and should go back to their own country?
No we shouldn't. It's racism/antisemitism at it's lowest and you are helping to perpetuate it. The very things you accuse Israel of is what you are doing right now. You and GHD aren't pro palestinian, you're anti Israeli. Nothing Israel does will ever be enough to satisfy the palestinians and your blood lust and hatred for a jewish state in the middle east.

All you and GHD do is post up rhetoric and bull. How about you both come out and post up your thoughts on how you think Israel and the palestinians can come to an agreed settlement? I've posted my thoughts up a couple of times in this thread and would love to read yours, in your own words. I don't think GHD is man enough to do it because it might just open a few people's eyes to what he really wants to happen to Israel, but you have already stated that you believe that Israel should continue to have a state (with mutually agreed borders with palestine, am I right?), and that is a good start.

One thing we all agree on is that the settlers should get out.

How about you?
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2013, 03:56:17 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 03:49:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 15, 2013, 06:04:58 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 05:08:33 AM
What's your solution, oh wise one? Ack sure its only a few rocks.
Children have been killed by rocks thrown at cars.
The solution now is one man one vote. If Israelis don't like it they should get the settlers home.

GHD can't answer, so his lap dog does his fighting for him. Coward.

I agree, get the settlers back into Israel.

I'm an Irishman but can't vote in an Irish election, should I go and buy a shit load of petrol and start a revolution? Should I start throwing bricks at cars going in to loyalist areas in the hope I might kill a  protestant kid for no other reason than "he's different to me?"
Should we creep into the bedrooms of planters and murder them in their beds because they shouldn't be here?
Should we attack Africans, Poles, Chinese or Asians just because they don't belong here and should go back to their own country?
No we shouldn't. It's racism/antisemitism at it's lowest and you are helping to perpetuate it. The very things you accuse Israel of is what you are doing right now. You and GHD aren't pro palestinian, you're anti Israeli. Nothing Israel does will ever be enough to satisfy the palestinians and your blood lust and hatred for a jewish state in the middle east.

All you and GHD do is post up rhetoric and bull. How about you both come out and post up your thoughts on how you think Israel and the palestinians can come to an agreed settlement? I've posted my thoughts up a couple of times in this thread and would love to read yours, in your own words. I don't think GHD is man enough to do it because it might just open a few people's eyes to what he really wants to happen to Israel, but you have already stated that you believe that Israel should continue to have a state (with mutually agreed borders with palestine, am I right?), and that is a good start.

One thing we all agree on is that the settlers should get out.

How about you?

Everyone living under Israeli rule should have the same rights.
I don't know what is going to happen to Israel. The settlers are not going anywhere. I think Zionism will collapse. It is hard to see the younger generation of US Jews continuing to support Israel as it becomes more and more extremist.

The outlines of a settlement have been clear since 1967. Get all the settlers out and let the Palestinians have their own state. No land swaps. Compensation for 1948.

It is not antisemitic to say the settlers should f**k off back to Israel.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 05:57:47 PM
QuoteEveryone living under Israeli rule should have the same rights.

Agreed. Next.....................
Quote
I don't know what is going to happen to Israel. The settlers are not going anywhere. I think Zionism will collapse. It is hard to see the younger generation of US Jews continuing to support Israel as it becomes more and more extremist.

Nobody knows, not even Israel/palestinians. The settlers are being used by the Israeli government as leverage. Their thinking is that the more violence there is from the palestinians, the more they're going to build. Wrong way to go about it, but if they stop now, then they are going to look weak. They are caught between a rock and a hard place. Personally I think they should make step by step withdrawls based on the ongoing security situation. The longer there's peace, the more settlers get shipped out. If they won't move then tell them they will be governed by PA. Their choice.
If you want to talk about anyone becoming more extremist, then look no further than the palestinians. They are taught in all the PA schools that all of Israel is palestine and that they are going to drive the jews dogs out. They are taught that martyrdom is virtuous and those that kill jews are heroes. Not very peaceful or conciliatory, is it. 

QuoteThe outlines of a settlement have been clear since 1967. Get all the settlers out and let the Palestinians have their own state. No land swaps. Compensation for 1948.
The palestinians are in the process of forming their own state. They were offered a state of their own (far larger than what they have now) by the UN in 1947, but refused to accept any jewish state, even at the expense of not having one of their own. Who's fault is that?


(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/partmap3.jpg)

Why no land swaps? If it is advantageous for the continued long term security of both sides to swap land, then why not?
Lets be realistic, Israel is not going to go back to the green line. The security wall is roughly what Israel is realistically going to accept, bar a few land swaps here and there.
Compensation for those made refugees by the 1948 war should only be considered if all refugees are compensated. That means anyone forced from their homes in Israel, or in any arab country due to the war in Israel. Many thousands were forced from their homes in neighbouring countries as a direct result of the 48 war. It's only fair, don't you think?

Quote
It is not antisemitic to say the settlers should f**k off back to Israel.
If it was, I'd be the biggest antisemite out there.



**edit. map added**
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2013, 06:17:49 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 05:57:47 PM
QuoteEveryone living under Israeli rule should have the same rights.

Agreed. Next.....................
Quote
I don't know what is going to happen to Israel. The settlers are not going anywhere. I think Zionism will collapse. It is hard to see the younger generation of US Jews continuing to support Israel as it becomes more and more extremist.

Nobody knows, not even Israel/palestinians. The settlers are being used by the Israeli government as leverage. Their thinking is that the more violence there is from the palestinians, the more they're going to build. Wrong way to go about it, but if they stop now, then they are going to look weak. They are caught between a rock and a hard place. Personally I think they should make step by step withdrawls based on the ongoing security situation. The longer there's peace, the more settlers get shipped out. If they won't move then tell them they will be governed by PA. Their choice.
If you want to talk about anyone becoming more extremist, then look no further than the palestinians. They are taught in all the PA schools that all of Israel is palestine and that they are going to drive the jews dogs out. They are taught that martyrdom is virtuous and those that kill jews are heroes. Not very peaceful or conciliatory, is it. 

QuoteThe outlines of a settlement have been clear since 1967. Get all the settlers out and let the Palestinians have their own state. No land swaps. Compensation for 1948.
The palestinians are in the process of forming their own state. They were offered a state of their own (far larger than what they have now) by the UN in 1947, but refused to accept any jewish state, even at the expense of not having one of their own. Who's fault is that?
Why no land swaps? If it is advantageous for the continued long term security of both sides to swap land, then why not?
Lets be realistic, Israel is not going to go back to the green line. The security wall is roughly what Israel is realistically going to accept, bar a few land swaps here and there.
Compensation for those made refugees by the 1948 war should only be considered if all refugees are compensated. That means anyone forced from their homes in Israel, or in any arab country due to the war in Israel. Many thousands were forced from their homes in neighbouring countries as a direct result of the 48 war. It's only fair, don't you think?

Quote
It is not antisemitic to say the settlers should f**k off back to Israel.
If it was, I'd be the biggest antisemite out there.
The settlers are not being used as leverage. They are there to ensure the Palestinians never have a state.
That is just nuts. Judaism doesn't understand. The Holocaust does not excuse the occupation. It never did.

So as the Palestinians will not get a state and there are 700,000 Jews squatting on the west Bank, it's going to come down to sanctions.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a civil war in Israel.

In 1948 the Zionists dispossessed the Palestinians. It was not a Jewish country. It was Palestine. It was easier to seize than land in Europe. But it was a stupid place to build a Jewish state.
The Arab world now recognises the right of Israel to exist but Israel wants all the land. It is very hard to see Israel pulling that one off. 
 
If the Sephardim want compo let them go to wherever they came from. Israel owes the Palestinians money for 1948.

"Israel is not going back to the Green Line"

Why not?
anyway there won't be a Palestinian state so it is irrelevant. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: muppet on May 15, 2013, 06:40:26 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 08:05:48 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 14, 2013, 07:37:50 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 07:03:16 PM
Oh sweet jesus and all the saints.


Prove to me that the tooth fairy exists. I demand photos and a sisgned confession.

You are a Catholic aren't you?
Not right now, no.

Is it a pre-requisite for posting?

Not at all.

It is just something that only an Irish Catholic, in the Dara O'Briain sense of the words, would say.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 07:02:01 PM
QuoteThe settlers are not being used as leverage. They are there to ensure the Palestinians never have a state.
That is just nuts. Judaism doesn't understand. The Holocaust does not excuse the occupation. It never did.

So as the Palestinians will not get a state and there are 700,000 Jews squatting on the west Bank, it's going to come down to sanctions.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a civil war in Israel.
Every time there's an upsurge in violence, Israel approves more settlements. Leverage.

Who is going to be the ones involved in this "civil war" you predict?

QuoteIn 1948 the Zionists dispossessed the Palestinians. It was not a Jewish country. It was Palestine. It was easier to seize than land in Europe. But it was a stupid place to build a Jewish state.
I hate to tell you, but it was a British territory ruled by Britain, not palestinians. Where would it be better to have a jewish state than their spiritual home, Bolivia, Sweden, Australia? The creation of a jewish state was agreed upon by the world community, with a palestinian state (something palestinians have never had in their history) to be created in tandem.

Quote
The Arab world now recognises the right of Israel to exist but Israel wants all the land. It is very hard to see Israel pulling that one off.
Please tell me you don't really believe that.
SOME arab states publicly tolerate Israel while others are openly hostile, even to the point of threatening to wipe it off the face of the earth. The arab states blame Israel every time their citizens dare to revolt against their governments as part of the arab spring.
There are jewish extremists who believe that all Judea, Samaria and Gaza are theirs, but they shouldn't be taken seriously.
 
Quote
If the Sephardim want compo let them go to wherever they came from. Israel owes the Palestinians money for 1948.
As the "shepardim" were forced out as a direct result of the conflict, then they are more entitled to compensation than any 3rd/4th generation palestinian born in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or anywhere else who has never even set foot in "palestine." The neighbouring arab states that attacked Israel and forced out their jewish population are as much a part of this whole sorry mess as anyone. It's time they took responsibility for their part in all of this. Quid pro quo.

Quote
"Israel is not going back to the Green Line"

Why not?
anyway there won't be a Palestinian state so it is irrelevant. 

Errrrr, then you need to get on to the UN and Google pretty damn quick then, because they are under the illusion there is. There is a palestinian state. Not the one some people envisage, but then again, the worlds not perfect, is it. It is a fledgling state that has much work to do to fully integrate, but I wish it well.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 07:13:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 15, 2013, 06:40:26 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 08:05:48 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 14, 2013, 07:37:50 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 14, 2013, 07:03:16 PM
Oh sweet jesus and all the saints.


Prove to me that the tooth fairy exists. I demand photos and a sisgned confession.

You are a Catholic aren't you?
Not right now, no.

Is it a pre-requisite for posting?

Not at all.

It is just something that only an Irish Catholic, in the Dara O'Briain sense of the words, would say.
Not that my religion (or more specifically, lack of it) is important, but why do you even bring the subject up? Does my view count for less because of my lack of religious conviction?

NO.

I don't ask anyone if they receive the sacrament or if they're handcuffed to the alter rails before engaging in debate so I would appreciate it if the religious persuasions of posters was ignored.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2013, 08:25:00 PM
"Everyone living under Israeli rule should have the same rights."

Agreed.

So the Palestinians have the right of return

I agree

As to where the Jewish state should have been built, I would say Galicia.
Where they wore those furry hats.

But not in the Levant.

US ambassador to Baghdad in 1947 said it would be a f**king mess. He was so right.
And who were the Brits to decide ?

Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2013, 10:07:34 PM
Beaver
Spiritual home my hole. If a group of irish americans 6th generation felt a spiritual link to cavan, came over and murdered everyone in killeshandra would they be entitled to the county? Of course they wouldnt.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 11:10:23 PM
No, but it would be a good start. ;)

The Palestinians are claiming right of return for 3rd/4th generation refugees. Is that right?
I think anyone who lost their home should be either fully compensated (at today's prices) or have their property back. Generations born outside their parental homeland have no right to return to somewhere that was never theirs. Only those born there should have the "right" to live there.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Count 10 on May 16, 2013, 08:30:37 AM
You have more chance of understanding women! ;)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2013, 08:58:00 AM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 15, 2013, 11:10:23 PM
No, but it would be a good start. ;)

The Palestinians are claiming right of return for 3rd/4th generation refugees. Is that right?
I think anyone who lost their home should be either fully compensated (at today's prices) or have their property back. Generations born outside their parental homeland have no right to return to somewhere that was never theirs. Only those born there should have the "right" to live there.
Beaver

Tell us again how long the Jews lived in Diaspora and how old the Jewish claim was. I think it was a bit longer than 3 generations but perhaps you can confirm. 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 12:15:06 PM
Here ya go Seafoid, a wee story to brighten your. Jews being baton charged by Israeli police.



Water cannons used on thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews protesting against army drafting their men which could 'destroy their way of life'
Thousands of protestors clashed with police in heated protest
Rabbis warn drafting men from community will uproot community
Government wants to increase drafting those who have previously been exempt because of religious ground to reduce national burden
Most Israeli men and women called for three years service when they turn 18


By Anna Edwards

PUBLISHED:04:48, 17 May 2013 | UPDATED:04:48, 17 May 2013

Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews clashed with police as they protested in Jerusalem against plans to enlist men from their community into the military.

The controversial proposal is supported by the secular majority pushing for a more equal share of the burden on Israeli society.

A sea of black coats - the traditional attire of ultra-Orthodox men - engulfed Jerusalem streets near the city's military draft bureau yesterday, where the crowd heard rabbis warn that army service would irreparably harm their way of life.

Tens of Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Israelis have clashed with police after protesting against newly proposed government legislation that would see them drafted into the military

Passionate protest: Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said at least 20,000 protesters took part

Face off: Israeli riot police stand guard as ultra-Orthodox demonstrators set bins on fire in Jerusalem

'The government wants to uproot (our traditions) and secularise us, they call it a melting pot, but people cannot be melted. You cannot change our (way of life),' Rabbi David Zycherman told the crowd in an anguished plea.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition government has committed to increase drafting ultra-Orthodox men, most of whom receive exemptions on religious grounds, in order to share the national burden and reduce pressure on the middle classes.

The party of Finance Minister Yair Lapid, Netanyahu's main coalition partner, received wide support at the polls in January on a pledge to resist demands by religious parties and to spread the load of army service and taxation more evenly.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said at least 20,000 protesters took part and about a dozen arrests were made when violence erupted and men hurled bottles and stones at officers, some on horseback, who used stun grenades to quell the unrest.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/17/article-2325916-19D2DC21000005DC-635_634x377.jpg)

A water cannon was also deployed as protesters set alight garbage bins, a regular occurrence at ultra-Orthdox demonstrations

Most ultra-Orthodox men receive exemptions from army draft on religious grounds

The government wants to change the rules on army drafts in order to share the national burden and reduce pressure on the middle classes

The issue of drafting ultra-Orthodox men into the military is part of a broader struggle between the secular majority and ultra-Orthodox minority over lifestyle in the Jewish state

A water cannon was also deployed as protesters set alight garbage bins, a regular occurrence at ultra-Orthdox demonstrations. At least six officers required medical treatment and two were taken to hospital, Rosenfeld added.

An Israel Radio commentator said the participants came from the most hardline elements of the ultra-Orthodox community who shun any compromise with the authorities on army service and even refuse to recognise the Jewish state for religious reasons.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews make up some 10 percent of Israel's population of 8 million. Most do not work, they receive military service exemptions and rely heavily on state subsidies for their religious studies and to support their families.

About 60 percent of ultra-Orthodox men engage in full-time Jewish religious studies, keeping them out of the labour market.

About 60 percent of ultra-Orthodox men engage in full-time Jewish religious studies, keeping them out of the labour market

On Tuesday, the cabinet approved a budget draft that will slash spending and hike taxes this year and next to rein in a growing budget deficit. Lapid has warned that failure to implement public spending cuts could cause an economic collapse.

Israel's budget deficit was 4.2 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) last year - more than double its initial target -due to overspending by the previous government and lower-than-expected tax revenues as the economy slowed.

The issue of drafting ultra-Orthodox men into the military is part of a broader struggle between the secular majority and ultra-Orthodox minority over lifestyle in the Jewish state.

Most Israeli men and women are called up for military service for up to three years when they turn 18. However, exceptions are made for most Arab citizens of Israel, as well as ultra-Orthodox men and women.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325916/Ultra-Orthodox-Jews-protest-army-draft-destroy-way-life.html#ixzz2TXz6Pk00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Count 10 on May 17, 2013, 12:22:55 PM
Jeez it's a wonder there weren't airstrikes like they do in Gaza ::)
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2013, 12:46:10 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 12:15:06 PM


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325916/Ultra-Orthodox-Jews-protest-army-draft-destroy-way-life.html#ixzz2TXz6Pk00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
I am surprised they didn't use depleted uranium on them, Beaver. Or white phosphorous
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 01:20:06 PM
The minute they start firing rockets into Israel, I will demand they do. But until that day, a good crack across the nut with a baton will suffice.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2013, 01:21:10 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 01:20:06 PM
The minute they start firing rockets into Israel, I will demand they do. But until that day, a good crack across the nut with a baton will suffice.
Have they opened a camp in the desert for the kids to be detained indefinitely without charge?
How many of the Haredim are likely to be tortured this afternoon ? 
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 01:26:10 PM
Not enough of them. Bunch of work shy freaks.




Worse than bloody students.  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 02:53:27 PM
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=9347

Apartheid?

'I guess the Galilee is not for Jews'  

The government is building in Sakhnin and selling apartments in Umm el-Fahm, but there are almost no land allocations for construction in the Jewish sector. In the farming community of Migdal, only 30 housing units for young couples have been allocated in the last few years.

Emily Amrousi


Only 30 housing units for young couples have been approved in the community of Migdal (shown), but more than 150 lots have been approved in the Arab village across the road |Photo credit: Wikipedia

Only 30 housing units for young couples have been approved in the community of Migdal (shown), but more than 150 lots have been approved in the Arab village across the road |Photo credit: Wikipedia


Not long ago, a police car stood at Migdal Junction near the Sea of Galilee and lay in wait for serious tax defaulters. The offenders were identified by their license plates. A police truck towed away cars that had been confiscated.


The surprise roadblock led to traffic jams and disrupted the lives of area residents, so we need to ask why the tax authorities didn't just knock on debtors' doors, as is usually done. Why were they forced to block a distant intersection with the help of police? The defaulters, in this case, were members of the Arab sector. Their villages are a no-go area for government employees.


We are on the verge of losing the Galilee. The Jewish minority there feels that the state has given up on them. It's not just a question of demography, but rather a total abdication of the symbols and attributes of sovereignty. There is selective law enforcement due to fear, due to a surge in the number of nationalist and criminal offenses, as well as due to accelerated Islamization. The Zionist dream ends at Route 6.


Yulia and Eran from the Har Yona neighborhood of Nazareth Illit are in despair. Only two Jewish families remain in their building. The harassment and threats have finally driven them to leave. Entire neighborhoods are being emptied of Jews. Shimon and Anat are another couple who have their suitcases packed. They are looking for an apartment in Rehovot. The park under their house in Carmiel is mainly populated by our Arab "cousins."


"So what?" I say, "Arabs have a right to live there." Their daughters are afraid to leave the house, they explain. There is crime, sexual harassment, jeeps tearing by at 140 kilometers an hour in residential neighborhoods. Life has become unbearable. You feel like an outsider in your own city.


"I guess the Galilee is not for Jews," Eran Rosenblit from Nazareth Illit says, nodding in agreement. He tried to organize a conference to save the Galilee, but gave up: "Even Knesset members won't come here."


He sees the government building in Sakhnin and selling apartments in Umm el-Fahm. Meanwhile, there are almost zero land allocations for construction in the Jewish sector. In the farming community of Migdal, only 30 housing units for young couples have been allocated in the last few years.


On the other side of the road, in the Arab village of Wadi Hamam, 150 lots for single-family dwellings have been approved in the same time span. These are just the numbers of official authorizations, on paper. In fact, illegal building dots the Galilee map like dense freckles. Thousands of single-family homes are being built outside the jurisdictional lines of Arab municipalities.


Law enforcement is heavy-handed. An unauthorized room in a Jewish community will lead to huge fines, demolition orders and trips to court. In the Arab sector, nada.


A young couple wanting to realize their dream of a house with a garden, as advertised in the Galilee Development Authority brochures, will encounter bureaucratic obstacles and out-of-touch planning bodies. On the other side of the road, one can see deluxe palaces. If and when a demolition order is issued for a structure in the Arab village, police cancel it for fear of riots. "Riots" is a code word. It is the reason why the Electric Company, the public works department and local councils pay random sums in compensation for land appropriations for public infrastructure and road expansion. Often the government will compensate "landowners" even though there is no proof that the land belongs to them, just to keep the peace.


Arab citizens are generally good and honest people. The problem is not the Arab population, but the State of Israel. It's not the people, it's the system. The Galilee is increasingly escaping our hold. It is getting further away. Intelligence coordinators in the police and Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet) are aware of potential terrorism bubbling under the surface. Weapons are being stored for criminal and nationalist purposes.


In the mosques, you can hear and see the growing religious extremism. Residential break-ins are on a steep increase. Sophisticated gangs are carrying out cattle theft on a massive scale. Farmers wake up in the morning to find their orchards stripped bare of fruit. Is this sovereignty? The police claim they do not have enough manpower, so volunteers from the New Israeli Guardians organization lie in ambush throughout the night to guard Farmer Yossi's lychees and grapefruits.


Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2013, 05:06:08 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 02:53:27 PM
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=9347

Apartheid?

'I guess the Galilee is not for Jews'  

The government is building in Sakhnin and selling apartments in Umm el-Fahm, but there are almost no land allocations for construction in the Jewish sector. In the farming community of Migdal, only 30 housing units for young couples have been allocated in the last few years.

Emily Amrousi


Only 30 housing units for young couples have been approved in the community of Migdal (shown), but more than 150 lots have been approved in the Arab village across the road |Photo credit: Wikipedia

Only 30 housing units for young couples have been approved in the community of Migdal (shown), but more than 150 lots have been approved in the Arab village across the road |Photo credit: Wikipedia


Not long ago, a police car stood at Migdal Junction near the Sea of Galilee and lay in wait for serious tax defaulters. The offenders were identified by their license plates. A police truck towed away cars that had been confiscated.


The surprise roadblock led to traffic jams and disrupted the lives of area residents, so we need to ask why the tax authorities didn't just knock on debtors' doors, as is usually done. Why were they forced to block a distant intersection with the help of police? The defaulters, in this case, were members of the Arab sector. Their villages are a no-go area for government employees.


We are on the verge of losing the Galilee. The Jewish minority there feels that the state has given up on them. It's not just a question of demography, but rather a total abdication of the symbols and attributes of sovereignty. There is selective law enforcement due to fear, due to a surge in the number of nationalist and criminal offenses, as well as due to accelerated Islamization. The Zionist dream ends at Route 6.


Yulia and Eran from the Har Yona neighborhood of Nazareth Illit are in despair. Only two Jewish families remain in their building. The harassment and threats have finally driven them to leave. Entire neighborhoods are being emptied of Jews. Shimon and Anat are another couple who have their suitcases packed. They are looking for an apartment in Rehovot. The park under their house in Carmiel is mainly populated by our Arab "cousins."


"So what?" I say, "Arabs have a right to live there." Their daughters are afraid to leave the house, they explain. There is crime, sexual harassment, jeeps tearing by at 140 kilometers an hour in residential neighborhoods. Life has become unbearable. You feel like an outsider in your own city.


"I guess the Galilee is not for Jews," Eran Rosenblit from Nazareth Illit says, nodding in agreement. He tried to organize a conference to save the Galilee, but gave up: "Even Knesset members won't come here."


He sees the government building in Sakhnin and selling apartments in Umm el-Fahm. Meanwhile, there are almost zero land allocations for construction in the Jewish sector. In the farming community of Migdal, only 30 housing units for young couples have been allocated in the last few years.


On the other side of the road, in the Arab village of Wadi Hamam, 150 lots for single-family dwellings have been approved in the same time span. These are just the numbers of official authorizations, on paper. In fact, illegal building dots the Galilee map like dense freckles. Thousands of single-family homes are being built outside the jurisdictional lines of Arab municipalities.


Law enforcement is heavy-handed. An unauthorized room in a Jewish community will lead to huge fines, demolition orders and trips to court. In the Arab sector, nada.


A young couple wanting to realize their dream of a house with a garden, as advertised in the Galilee Development Authority brochures, will encounter bureaucratic obstacles and out-of-touch planning bodies. On the other side of the road, one can see deluxe palaces. If and when a demolition order is issued for a structure in the Arab village, police cancel it for fear of riots. "Riots" is a code word. It is the reason why the Electric Company, the public works department and local councils pay random sums in compensation for land appropriations for public infrastructure and road expansion. Often the government will compensate "landowners" even though there is no proof that the land belongs to them, just to keep the peace.


Arab citizens are generally good and honest people. The problem is not the Arab population, but the State of Israel. It's not the people, it's the system. The Galilee is increasingly escaping our hold. It is getting further away. Intelligence coordinators in the police and Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet) are aware of potential terrorism bubbling under the surface. Weapons are being stored for criminal and nationalist purposes.


In the mosques, you can hear and see the growing religious extremism. Residential break-ins are on a steep increase. Sophisticated gangs are carrying out cattle theft on a massive scale. Farmers wake up in the morning to find their orchards stripped bare of fruit. Is this sovereignty? The police claim they do not have enough manpower, so volunteers from the New Israeli Guardians organization lie in ambush throughout the night to guard Farmer Yossi's lychees and grapefruits.

Emily Amrousi is fruitcake.


Farmers wake up in the morning to find their orchards stripped bare of fruit. Is this sovereignty? The police claim they do not have enough manpower, so volunteers from the New Israeli Guardians organization lie in ambush throughout the night to guard Farmer Yossi's lychees and grapefruits.

How did "farmer Yossi" get the land anyway?
And stripping orchards of fruit is a Jewish speciality in the West Bank where it's legal. 

The reason why they aren't building homes for freeloader Jews in Migdal is because the Israeli govt spends all the money and then some on the settlers. the deficit is 5% of GDP .
Maybe you could send them some spondulicks, Beaver. Your stipend from hasbara central, for example.

Yulia and Eran from the Har Yona neighborhood of Nazareth Illit are in despair. Only two Jewish families remain in their building.

Imagine the uproar if some French journo reported " Francine and Joel are in despair. There are 23 Jewish families in their building and only 2 Christian couples"
That would correctly be called antisemitism.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 05:24:25 PM
If you think for one second that I get paid or I am involved in anyway or connected to any hasbara group, then you are a bigger fool than I gave you credit for, or you are a massive conspiracy theory nut.





Now where did I leave my kippa?  ;D
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2013, 05:46:50 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 17, 2013, 05:24:25 PM
If you think for one second that I get paid or I am involved in anyway or connected to any hasbara group, then you are a bigger fool than I gave you credit for, or you are a massive conspiracy theory nut.





Now where did I leave my kippa?  ;D
Maybe you are on work experience.
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: seafoid on May 21, 2013, 04:52:55 PM
. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/aa37238e-9255-11e2-851f-00144feabdc0.html


A road trip around an isolated nation

Review by John Reed


A historian's travels in the Holy Land find a nation unable to connect with its neighbours and shifting into cyberspace


Israel Has Moved, by Diana Pinto, (Harvard University Press, RRP£18.95, RRP$24.95)



One of the things that most conventional journalistic ac­counts of Israel fail to convey is the sheer physical strangeness of the place.

There are the settler highways that wend through the West Bank, sheltered by concrete lips designed to deflect rocks hurled by the Palestinians who live there. At the western approach to Jerusalem, there is a new, harp-like bridge designed by Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava that spans a massive traffic intersection – the city has no river – leading essentially nowhere. At the border with Gaza, there is a hulking terminal funnelling arrivals into Israel through a set of pens and scanners aimed at preventing them from blowing themselves up – or, if they do, containing the damage.

This book takes Israel's built environment as a departure point to offer broader reflections on shifts in the nation's psyche, sometimes to brilliant and startling effect.

Diana Pinto delineates the physical landscape of present-day Israel – its highways, restaurants and shopping malls – using it to describe the country as it is, not as the rest of the world would like it to be.

Israel, she says, has transcended its narrow geographical confines and abstract hopes for peace, bound for the limitless opportunities of cyberspace and a global economy where it can excel. Even as it erects ever-higher security fences on its increasingly lawless frontiers with Egypt, Syria and Lebanon, it is undergoing an economic and technological miracle, with more Nasdaq-listed companies, Pinto writes, than all of Europe put together. "The country," she states, "has chosen to go forth alone."

From the high rises of Tel Aviv, with apartments as pricey as any in Hong Kong and London, to the high-tech companies that cluster in the north around Haifa, Israel now locates itself "in its own cyberspace at the heart of a globalised world with increasingly Asian connotations".

Even the Holocaust, a fundamental reason for the founding of the Jewish state, is fading into memory: say "Berlin" to a young, cosmopolitan Israeli, and their first association will be the vibrant club and artistic scene.

Pinto's acute – and, in my view, apt – diagnosis of Israel's defining ailment is that it is "autistic": trapped inside its own increasingly comfortable, security-defended bubble, unable to connect with – much less identify with – its neighbours, starting with the Palestinians.

She expands on her thesis in a series of vignettes, beginning with the heterodox groups of people – the Russians, the ultra-Orthodox, foreign economic migrants – arriving at Ben Gurion airport near Tel Aviv.

Pinto takes readers to Jerusalem down Route 443, which follows an old Ottoman road through occupied Palestinian lands. When she asks her driver for the name of the Arab villages that skirt the highway, "he gives them to me in a distracted manner, as if I were asking a boring question, such as the full geological name of nearby rocks".

She also goes to secular, wealthy, cosmopolitan Tel Aviv, to which she and most Israelis these days refer to as "the bubble" – a world unto itself although it is just a few kilometres away from the conflict.

This book is no primer for restarting the peace process with the Palestinians – as US President Barack Obama urged the Israeli leadership to do on last week's visit – and does not pretend to be. Nor will it take you into the West Bank which – for better or worse – forms an increasingly integral part of what, in the absence of peace, is becoming a single Israeli-Palestinian state.

Israel Has Moved is more travelogue and philosophical musing than reportage. Pinto is a French intellectual historian and policy analyst who is married to Dominique Moïsi, the foreign affairs analyst. She based her research on two academic trips to Israel.

In the afterword, the author invokes André Gide's Return from the USSR, his reckoning with Stalinism. Pinto describes her work as a "non-linear postmodern reading" of Israel, and at its worst the writing degenerates into academese. Furthermore, she leaves her Israeli sources – described in rich psychological detail – unnamed. She says this is because she initially did not intend to write a book but, for this reader, the anonymity detracts from the book's considerable rigour.

But, overall, the effect is of enjoying an engaging and trenchant dinner party conversation with an intelligent traveller brimming with impressions from a trip. After dwelling in the book mostly on the victors of Israel's economic miracle, she closes with a thought for the less-privileged citizens, who she hopes will "bring Israel back to its earlier modesty and its humanistic values, before it is too late".

The writer is the FT's Jerusalem bureau chief
Title: Re: Israel massacre ongoing in Gaza, over 180 Palestinians murdered
Post by: give her dixie on May 21, 2013, 07:55:02 PM
Please take a few minutes and watch this video footage taken by my friend in the occupied West Bank.
Tommy Donnelan who is from Roscommon has been spending a lot of time there documenting the brutal
occupation and oppression. Tommy is a fearless cameraman, and to date, has been shot 6 times by Israeli forces.

Watch the opening few seconds as an illegal occupation soldier takes aim and shoots Tommy in the leg
with a steel rubber coated bullet. Tommy is wearing a Press vest, and is operating a video camera, posing
no threat to no one.

However, a camera is the most dangerous weapon anyone can carry in Palestine.

Tommy's footage is over dubbed with a recent interview he did with Galway Bay FM. Needless to say, the interviewer
didn't really understand Tommy and his work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xCkm1HqeIwE
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on March 06, 2014, 02:31:34 PM
Egypt has detained and deported Northern Irish Nobel Laureate and peace activist Mairead Maguire today after she tried to enter the country.

She had intended to join a delegation of activists going to the neighbouring Palestinian Gaza Strip on Thursday.

Yesterday, airport police had detained and deported American anti-war activist Medea Benjamin, also part of the delegation. She told AFP her arm was broken by the policemen.

Maguire said she arrived at Cairo airport with fellow activist Ann Patterson on Tuesday night.

"We were taken to the detention centre and questioned and held for eight hours, and were told we would not be allowed entry into Cairo and would be put on a plane," Maguire told AFP by telephone from London afterwards.

The police were "polite" but offered her no reason for barring her, she said. An airport official told AFP she had been blacklisted.

Maguire, born in 1944, won the 1976 Nobel Peace Prize with Betty Williams for founding a peace group to resolve the conflict between North Ireland's Catholics and Protestants.

She had become a vocal supporter of Palestinians and was expelled from Israel in 2010, after she tried to enter the blockaded Gaza Strip aboard a ship with other activists.

http://www.thejournal.ie/mairead-maguire-deported-egypt-1346508-Mar2014/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on March 06, 2014, 02:46:57 PM
After Latest Incident, Israel's Future in FIFA Is Uncertain

Their names are Jawhar Nasser Jawhar, 19, and Adam Abd al-Raouf Halabiya, 17. They were once soccer players in the West Bank. Now they are never going to play sports again. Jawhar and Adam were on their way home from a training session in the Faisal al-Husseini Stadium on January 31 when Israeli forces fired upon them as they approached a checkpoint. After being shot repeatedly, they were mauled by checkpoint dogs and then beaten. Ten bullets were put into Jawhar's feet. Adam took one bullet in each foot. After being transferred from a hospital in Ramallah to King Hussein Medical Center in Amman, they received the news that soccer would no longer be a part of their futures. (Israel's border patrol maintains that the two young men were about to throw a bomb.)

This is only the latest instance of the targeting of Palestinian soccer players by the Israeli army and security forces. Death, injury or imprisonment has been a reality for several members of the Palestinian national team over the last five years. Just imagine if members of Spain's top-flight World Cup team had been jailed, shot or killed by another country and imagine the international media outrage that would ensue. Imagine if prospective youth players for Brazil were shot in the feet by the military of another nation. But, tragically, these events along the checkpoints have received little attention on the sports page or beyond.

Much has been written about the psychological effect this kind of targeting has on the occupied territories. Sports represent escape, joy and community, and the Palestinian national soccer team, for a people without a recognized nation, is a source of tremendous pride. To attack the players is to attack the hope that the national team will ever truly have a home.

The Palestinian national football team, which formed in 1998, is currently ranked 144th in the world by the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA). They have never been higher than 115th. As Chairman of the Palestinian Football Association Jibril al-Rajoub commented bluntly, the problems are rooted in "the occupation's insistence on destroying Palestinian sport."

Over the last year, in response to this systematic targeting of Palestinian soccer, al-Rajoub has attempted to assemble forces to give Israel the ultimate sanction and, as he said, "demand the expulsion of Israel from FIFA and the International Olympic Committee." Al-Rajoub claims the support of Jordan, Qatar, Iran, Oman, Algiers and Tunisia in favor of this move, and promises more countries, with an opportunity at a regional March 14 meeting of Arab states, to organize more support. He has also pledged to make the resolution formal when all the member nations of FIFA meet in Brazil.

Qatar's place in this, as host of the 2022 World Cup, deserves particular scrutiny. As the first Arab state to host the tournament, they are under fire for the hundreds of construction deaths of Nepalese workers occurring on their watch. As the volume on these concerns rises, Qatar needs all the support in FIFA that they can assemble. Whether they eventually see the path to that support as one that involves confronting or accommodating Israel, will be fascinating to see.


As for Sepp Blatter, he clearly recognizes that there is a problem in the treatment of Palestinian athletes by the Israeli state. Over the last year, he has sought to mediate this issue by convening a committee of Israeli and Palestinian authorities to see if they can come to some kind of agreement about easing the checkpoints and restrictions that keep Palestinian athletes from leaving (and trainers, consultants and coaches from entering) the West Bank and Gaza. Yet al-Rajoub sees no progress. As he said, "This is the way the Israelis are behaving and I see no sign that they have recharged their mental batteries. There is no change on the ground. We are a full FIFA member and have the same rights as all other members."

The shooting into the feet of Jawhar and Adam has taken a delicate situation and made it an impossible one. Sporting institutions like FIFA and the IOC are always wary about drawing lines in the sand when it comes to the conduct of member nations. But the deliberate targeting of players is seen, even in the corridors of power, as impossible to ignore. As long as Israel subjects Palestinian athletes to detention and violence, their seat at the table of international sports will be never be short of precarious.



http://www.thenation.com/blog/178642/after-latest-incident-israels-future-fifa-uncertain
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 06, 2014, 03:56:09 PM
Time some organisation gave the lead in pulling the plug on this rogue State.
It worked eventually on apartheid White South Africa.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on March 06, 2014, 04:59:15 PM
I think if we are letting FIFA set the moral tone, we are completely fucked.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 06, 2014, 07:40:58 PM
Obama told Netanyahu last week that Israel has lost Europe and that if he doesn't get the finger out it'll lose the Yanks
Israel is running on fumes at this stage.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on March 06, 2014, 08:32:30 PM
Here are a few facts since the farcical peace talks started last July:

44 Palestinians murdered

808 injured

2,702 arrested

3,360 raids on Palestinian homes

154 homes demolished

10,489 new illegal settlements announced

Have you heard about any of this in the news?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 06, 2014, 08:45:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 06, 2014, 08:32:30 PM
Here are a few facts since the farcical peace talks started last July:

44 Palestinians murdered

808 injured

2,702 arrested

3,360 raids on Palestinian homes

154 homes demolished

10,489 new illegal settlements announced

Have you heard about any of this in the news?
Israel wants peace :o
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 06, 2014, 08:47:46 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.578231#

But I have news for Netanyahu: Outside the giant conference hall on Mount Vernon Street, very few people listened to him. And even within the conference hall, many were tired of him. His justified message sounded like yesterday's message. He is no longer convincing and no longer exciting; he's no longer even Churchillian. Netanyahu's unseen cigar is no longer understood as the cigar of heroism, but as the cigar of an anachronistic white conservatism whose time has passed.

Over the last few months, I've visited about a dozen leading American universities. I've spoken to thousands of people, and listened to hundreds. The situation is unambiguous: We're losing the future. The younger generation of American Jews is much more Barack Obama than it is Netanyahu. Its world of values is the liberal world. Its perception of reality is a pacifist perception. It utterly rejects the occupation, the use of force and human rights violations
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on March 06, 2014, 08:50:43 PM
Please take a few minutes to read this report on Palestine to the United Nations Human Rights Council by Professor Richard Falk.

http://richardfalk.wordpress.com/2014/03/05/december-2013-report-to-un-human-rights-council-on-occupied-palestine/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: lawnseed on March 07, 2014, 03:41:44 PM
I was thinking the jews would be using the ukraine as cover from the meejah to do some dirty deed but they dont give a toss who knows what theyre up to..
Bad hoors and they'll not be happy until they start a huge war.. Hope they get their jew asses well kicked when it happens
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 07, 2014, 03:44:28 PM
You've overstepped even your low mark this time lawnweed. :-[
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: lawnseed on March 07, 2014, 03:46:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 07, 2014, 03:44:28 PM
You've overstepped even your low mark this time lawnweed. :-[
Wha? You lost me there rossie
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 07, 2014, 04:58:06 PM
Your use of the word "jew" reminds me of the Goebbels era.
Surely you mean Israeli?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: lawnseed on March 07, 2014, 05:10:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 07, 2014, 04:58:06 PM
Your use of the word "jew" reminds me of the Goebbels era.
Surely you mean Israeli?
No I mean jews and the jewish state names they use to describe themselves. Try listening to afn american forces network. This is where you'll hear young americans in the forces getting brainwashed into thinking everything in islam is bad and should be feared. The phrase jewish state is commonly used by jews in the forces..

PS its also the place to hear the best country music on the planet incase your wondering :D
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 07, 2014, 05:47:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 07, 2014, 04:58:06 PM
Your use of the word "jew" reminds me of the Goebbels era.
Surely you mean Israeli?
Israel includes 20% Palestinians.
It doesn't include another 4 million Palestinians.
Goebbels didn't live to see Zionism

Churchill said after the Zionists murdered Lord Moyne

"If our dreams for Zionism are to end in the smoke of an assassin's pistol, and the labours for its future produce a new set of gangsters worthy of Nazi Germany, then many like myself will have to reconsider the position we have maintained so consistently and so long in the past"

they are gangsters
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: lawnseed on March 07, 2014, 05:54:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 07, 2014, 05:47:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 07, 2014, 04:58:06 PM
Your use of the word "jew" reminds me of the Goebbels era.
Surely you mean Israeli?
Israel includes 20% Palestinians.
It doesn't include another 4 million Palestinians.
Goebbels didn't live to see Zionism

Churchill said after the Zionists murdered Lord Moyne

"If our dreams for Zionism are to end in the smoke of an assassin's pistol, and the labours for its future produce a new set of gangsters worthy of Nazi Germany, then many like myself will have to reconsider the position we have maintained so consistently and so long in the past"

they are gangsters
Yes I think post war 2 it started to dawn on the brits that they were a shower
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on March 11, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
It's been a bloody 24 hours in Palestine which has seen 10 people killed.

Yesterday a Jordanian judge was killed at the Albanny bridge checkpoint. Witnesses said Raed Zueter was shot at close range by 2 soldiers, while the IDF said he was a terrorist who had tried to steal a weapon. For good measure they blew up his suitcases.

http://jordantimes.com/eyewitness-says-israeli-army-lying-judge-did-not-try-to-seize-soldiers-gun

Also yesterday, a young 18 year old boy was shot in the back of the head for allegedly throwing stones. Stones are classed as deadly weapons in the West Bank.

http://www.qassam.ps/news-8144-2_Palestinians_Killed_By_Army_Fire_in_less_than_12_hours.html

This morning another Palestinian was killed.  Fedaa Muhyiddin Majadla, 23, was killed as Israeli soldiers opened fire on his car near a checkpoint.

Then this morning in Gaza, 3 men were killed following a drone strike as they rode on a motorbike.

http://www.qassam.ps/news-8147-Six_Palestinian_martyrs_by_Israeli_fire_in_24_hours.html

Then, just a few hours ago, an explosion rocked a house and 4 more Palestinian men were killed, and several others injured. It is thought a bomb went off in the house.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7Vvff-aJQY&feature=share
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on March 11, 2014, 06:03:57 PM
An estimated 10,000 children killed in Syria and 491,000 living rough with little food or water and little hope.

The middle east is a disaster area and the west is a big reason why!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on March 12, 2014, 07:17:30 PM
Following the murders yesterday by Israel, a barrage of rockets were launched this evening from Gaza towards Israel. No doubt they will retaliate in the normal fashion by launching a series of air strikes later on tonight. It is going to be a long night in Gaza......
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 12, 2014, 07:28:41 PM
NUIG, TAFKA UCG , votes for BDS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLYDe-xRdIY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6BimC07OIQ
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 30, 2014, 10:45:16 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.582838

Christie apologizes to Adelson for 'occupied territories' remark
Christie made the remark during a speech Saturday to the Republican Jewish Coalition; crowd of Jewish Republicans at Christie's speech reportedly gasped at N.J. governor's use of the loaded term.
By JTA and Haaretz | Mar. 30, 2014 | 8:22 PM |  10


New Jersey Governor Chris Christie apologized to casino magnate Sheldon Adelson for referring to the "occupied territories" in a speech to the Republican Jewish Coalition.

Christie met with Adelson, a major GOP donor, privately on Saturday afternoon in Adelson's Las Vegas office in the Venetian Resort Hotel Casino, which hosted the RJC meeting, Politico reported, citing an unnamed source.
During his speech on Saturday, Christie spoke of his family's trip to Israel in 2012.
"I took a helicopter ride from the occupied territories across and just felt personally how extraordinary that was to understand, the military risk that Israel faces every day," he reportedly said.
Several news outlets reported that the crowd of Jewish Republicans at Christie's speech noticeably gasped at Christie's use of the loaded term.
Politico reported that the unnamed source, which it called "familiar with the conversation," said that Christie made clear "that he misspoke when he referred to the 'occupied territories.' And he conveyed that he is an unwavering friend and committed supporter of Israel, and was sorry for any confusion that came across as a result of the misstatement."
The source told Politico that Adelson accepted Christie's explanation.
Christie said that during his trip to Israel, everyone he met wanted "America to be their unblinking, unwavering, unquestioning friend. The sense I got from my trip was that many of those folks, not all, but many of them were worried that we were no longer being that," The Star-Ledger newspaper reported.
Also attending was the RJC's Spring Leadership Meeting was Israel's U.S. Ambassador Ron Dermer.
The American-born envoy was one of a list of high-profile guests, including Christie, ex-UN Ambassador John Bolton, Ohio Governor Jon Kasich and Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker. According to the RJC website, former vice president Dick Cheney was keynote speaker at the event's gala dinner. Dermer attended the event's Shabbat dinner, the Los Angeles Times reported.
The ambassador attended the event amid a strike by employees of Israel's Foreign Ministry, declared last week, which closed down the country's foreign missions and totally paralyzed the Israeli diplomatic system.
For a foreign ambassador to speak at a political event, particularly one aligned with party in the opposition is highly uncommon, according to LobeLog, which added that Dermer agreed to speak at the event days after he replaced former ambassador Michael Oren in February last year.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on March 30, 2014, 11:17:40 PM
US isolated in latest UN vote on Palestine
Submitted by Ali Abunimah on Fri, 03/28/2014


http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/us-isolated-latest-un-vote-palestine

The international community today took a firm stance totally isolating the United States over its opposition to Palestinian rights and its support for Israel's criminal violations of international humanitarian law.

The UN Human Rights Rights Council in Geneva passed four resolutions on the question of Palestine, and the United States was the sole "no" vote in every single case.

"Criminal complicity"

Anti-Palestinian groups, including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) had strongly criticized the resolutions (A/HRC/25/L.37/Rev.1) including one urging UN member states to "ensure that they are not taking actions that assist in any way the expansion of settlements or construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, either directly or indirectly."

The resolution urges states "to take appropriate measures to encourage businesses domiciled in their territory and/or under their jurisdiction, including those owned or controlled by them, to refrain from committing or contributing to gross human rights abuses of Palestinians, in accordance with the expected standard of conduct in the Guiding Principles and relevant international laws and standards."

This marks a step forward in outlawing private corporations' complicity with Israeli crimes.

But based on comparison with earlier drafts quoted in media reports, the final revision of the resolution appears to have been watered down to remove references to "international criminal liability, for corporate complicity in breaches of international law related to illegal settlements."

Before the vote, the ADL's Abe Foxman had warned that the "resolution attempts to advance a very similar position to elements of the vehemently anti-Israel Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, and at the same time, it puts a serious damper on the current peace talks taking place."

Human rights crimes

Another resolution (A/HRC/25/L.38/Rev.1) condemns a horrifying list of human rights abuses against Palestinians, including the detention of thousands of "Palestinians, including many children and women and elected members of the Palestinian Legislative Council" in "Israeli prisons or detention centres under harsh conditions, including, inter alia, unhygienic conditions, solitary confinement, lack of proper medical care, denial of family visits and denial of due process, that impair their well-being."

The resolution also expresses "deep concern" about "the ill-treatment and harassment of any Palestinian prisoner and all reports of torture."

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 01, 2014, 11:57:22 PM
Israel killed 12 Palestinians, arrested 364 in March


Twelve Palestinians were killed and 364 arrested by Israeli forces in Gaza Strip and the West Bank during March, a study released yesterday has found.

The information appeared in the annual report issued by Ahrar Centre for Prisoners Studies and Human Rights, which documents the Israeli violations against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, the occupied West Bank and occupied Jerusalem.

According to the report, the number of Palestinians arrested from Jerusalem was 83, 81 from Hebron, 48 from Jenin, 46 from Bethlehem, 43 from Nablus, 17 from Qalqilya, 13 from Ramallah, 11 from Jericho, eight from Salfit and Tulkarm and six from the Gaza Strip.

The prisoners counted in the report were arrested in night raids from homes, kidnapped at checkpoints or during clashes between stone throwers and armed occupation forces.

Ahrar chief Fuad Al-Khufash said that the occupied West Bank is completely vulnerable to the Israeli occupation army. The West Banks cities, villages and neighbourhoods are invaded by the Israeli armed forces almost every night for the purpose of arresting Palestinians.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/10652-israel-killed-12-palestinians-arrested-364-in-march
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: lawnseed on April 03, 2014, 06:58:01 AM
History repeats itself. The jews are doing to the palestinians what the nazis did to them..

The russian action and the missing plane are perfect media diversions for the jews to do what they want on the qt so to speak.

I'd imagine correspondants sending these stories in and editors rolling their eyes. "lets go with the plane..
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 07:02:30 AM
It is such a mess. Maybe Mike Sheehy can sort it out.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/.premium-1.583508#
Israeli-Palestinian blame game is on, but the outcome is known in advance

Both sides are practicing clever claims and crushing retorts, but basic reality will clinch it: Israel is the occupier and Palestinians are the occupied. Period.

By Chemi Shalev    |  Apr. 2, 2014 | 11:40 PM |  1
The term "blame game' was coined, or at least popularized, by former U.S. President Ronald Reagan. Writing in 2002, the late and great master of current English usage, William Safire, traced the first use of the term to a speech that Reagan gave two decades earlier, in which he tried to deflect growing criticism of rising unemployment: "In recent weeks, a lot of people have been playing what I call the 'blame game'," Reagan said.

In the Israeli-Palestinian arena, the blame games have become a tradition, and they are set to begin in earnest once again, unless the moribund Israeli-Palestinian peace talks are resuscitated soon. In fact, the preliminary rounds of the blame tournament have been going on for quite some time, alongside Secretary of State John Kerry's last-ditch efforts to extend the peace talks. While they're exchanging positions, demands and concessions, both sides have also been jockeying for position for the main event, ready to put the onus on the other the moment the whistle blows and the battle begins.

In Jerusalem they've been stocking up on time-tested claims of rampant Palestinian violence, incitement and rejectionism, while Ramallah is replenishing its arsenal of charges against occupation, "price tag" attacks and human rights violations. Back from their long strike in the nick of time, Israeli hasbara experts can start practicing their lines about how the Palestinians showed their true colors by refusing to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, while Palestinians are busy printing the maps that will prove the extent of Israel's annexationist settlement drive.

One of the most heated bouts will be played out in Washington, of course. Both sides will be vying for an American verdict that firmly convicts the other. Israel will enjoy a home-court advantage and is certain to draft Congress to its team, if only to counteract some administration officials' burning desire for payback for the indignities they have suffered, in their eyes, at the hands of Benjamin Netanyahu and others in his government. As of mid-week, at least, the administration was hedging its bets.

But you shouldn't be holding your breath in anticipation of the results. While the game may have some sporting value in Washington and in a few other capitals such as Ottawa or Canberra, in much of the world the fix is on, the verdict is in and the outcome is a foregone conclusion. No matter how much effort and creativity Israel puts into its hasbara campaign, and even it were to present a truly compelling case against Mahmoud Abbas', the international jury is certain to find for the his side. It's best to prepare yourself in advance.

First of all, it's in the nature of the beast: no matter how successfully Israelis and Diaspora Jews convince themselves that Israel is the victim and the underdog; no matter how extensively (and cynically) Israeli leaders peddle this perception; and no matter how justifiable such a view may be in the longer view of history - the world just won't buy it. For most people, the physical evidence is irrefutable: Israel is strong, the Palestinians are weak; Israel is the occupier, the Palestinians are occupied; Israelis live in the "only democracy in the Middle East," the Palestinians remain disenfranchised and stateless.

Israel has also done more than its fair share in recent years to build up reservoirs of bad will among large sectors of Western public opinion: the jury is predisposed to rule against it. The growing numbers of unabashed xenophobic and/or theocratic and/or anti-democratic politicians who have been making their way to the top in Israeli politics provide ample fodder for Israel's detractors. Unjust as it may be, Israel's self-inflicted image of arrogance, insensitivity and even racism, in some cases, often offsets the negative ramifications of Palestinian adherence to violence and armed struggle.

Yes, and there is also anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism and lots of double standards, though these have been thriving in recent years, most Jews forget, against the backdrop of Israel's 47-year occupation.

Of course, once Israelis and many Diaspora Jews understand that international public opinion is blaming them rather than the Palestinians, despite what they perceive to be the overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence on their side, they will only grow more insular, more isolated and more convinced not only that the "world is against us", as their leaders keep telling them, but that it is inherently Jew-hating as well.

And once the Palestinians begin to gain acceptance to international organizations and the campaign for boycott, divestment and sanctions starts to really take off, Israelis will increasingly pin the blame on traitors in their midst, informers from within, Jewish back-stabbers bought and paid for by hostile money from malevolent foreigners abroad. And they will dig in their heels even more.

It's a depressing vicious circle, an inevitable scenario, a tragedy just waiting to happen. Unfortunately, far too many Israelis and Diaspora Jews still find it easier to walk down this treacherous path than take a long, hard look in the mirror, once and for all. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: lawnseed on April 03, 2014, 07:31:53 AM
I find myself looking at things in shops like fruit etc checking that it didnt come from israel before I put it in the basket.. Does anyone else feel like this?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on April 03, 2014, 07:31:53 AM
I find myself looking at things in shops like fruit etc checking that it didnt come from israel before I put it in the basket.. Does anyone else feel like this?
I do too. It's going the way of South Africa pre Mandela. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 03, 2014, 10:46:18 AM
The boycott against Israel goods produced on stolen Palestinian land, and against companies who profit from doing business there has gained serious momentum and not a week goes by but some company pulls out or another university votes to boycott. The noose is tightening, and its beginning to hurt.

Sadly though, we had a perfect chance to take a stand against the number 1 violator of Palestinian human rights, Caterpillar. Instead of living up to their claims of solidarity with Palestinians, both the SDLP and Sinn Fein turned their backs on them and came out praising Caterpillar. Martin McGuinness went one further a visited their factory where these weapons of mass destruction are made and spoke in glowing terms about them. Not only that, but both parties rubber stamped a grant of £1.6 million to them. Don't expect them to pay much in taxes as they have set up a company in Switzerland so as to avoid paying

taxes.......http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/31/caterpillar-avoid-4billion-us-taxes-senate-report

The boycott of South Africa showed the world how people power can make a difference, and it also showed us how Governments, politicians and companies ignored the boycott and continued to do business with the apartheid regime. History will also show us who stood with the occupied and oppressed Palestinians, and who stood with those carrying out the oppression and occupation.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 11:00:34 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 03, 2014, 10:46:18 AM
The boycott against Israel goods produced on stolen Palestinian land, and against companies who profit from doing business there has gained serious momentum and not a week goes by but some company pulls out or another university votes to boycott. The noose is tightening, and its beginning to hurt.

Sadly though, we had a perfect chance to take a stand against the number 1 violator of Palestinian human rights, Caterpillar. Instead of living up to their claims of solidarity with Palestinians, both the SDLP and Sinn Fein turned their backs on them and came out praising Caterpillar. Martin McGuinness went one further a visited their factory where these weapons of mass destruction are made and spoke in glowing terms about them. Not only that, but both parties rubber stamped a grant of £1.6 million to them. Don't expect them to pay much in taxes as they have set up a company in Switzerland so as to avoid paying

taxes.......http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/31/caterpillar-avoid-4billion-us-taxes-senate-report

The boycott of South Africa showed the world how people power can make a difference, and it also showed us how Governments, politicians and companies ignored the boycott and continued to do business with the apartheid regime. History will also show us who stood with the occupied and oppressed Palestinians, and who stood with those carrying out the oppression and occupation.
If the Palestinians go to the UN the momentum of BDS will increase. Zionism is barely holding the line in the US.
Their PR content is dead. They have no Plan B  either.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 03, 2014, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 07:02:30 AM
It is such a mess. Maybe Mike Sheehy can sort it out.

No, I don't think I can sort it out because unlike you and your ilk I don't believe in simple "final solutions" to problems of this nature.

One thing I do know for sure though is that anyone with over 13000 hate-filled posts in 4 years on this issue on mondoweiss.com and on this board  is always going to be part of the problem and will never be part of the solution.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 12:53:11 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on April 03, 2014, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 07:02:30 AM
It is such a mess. Maybe Mike Sheehy can sort it out.

No, I don't think I can sort it out because unlike you and your ilk I don't believe in simple "final solutions" to problems of this nature.

One thing I do know for sure though is that anyone with over 13000 hate-filled posts in 4 years on this issue on mondoweiss.com and on this board  is always going to be part of the problem and will never be part of the solution.
Apartheid is justified by the Shoah. Is that it?
Give us your solution.
A free caid for everyone, is it ?

Even Alan Dershowitz is being called an anti-Semite now. (Dershowitz played corner back for Gnieveguillia in 1966)
The insult is meaningless.



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 03, 2014, 06:54:05 PM
Not everyone that is critical of Israel is an anti-semite, for sure. Israel deserves plenty of criticism, no doubt about that. There is, however, a small vocifreous minority of Israel critics that are undoubtedly anti-semitic and you are at the extreme end of that scale.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 03, 2014, 07:58:28 PM
Archbishop Emeritus of Cape Town Desmond Tutu, a legendary figure in the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, issued this statement on 2 April 2014 condemning escalating legislative efforts in the United States to curb freedom of speech and ostracize those who support justice in Palestine.

    Statement by Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu on US Efforts to Curb Freedom of Speech

    I am writing today to express grave concern about a wave of legislative measures in the United States aimed at punishing and intimidating those who speak their conscience and challenge the human rights violations endured by the Palestinian people. In legislatures in Maryland, New York, Illinois, Florida, and even the United States Congress, bills have been proposed that would either bar funding to academic associations or seek to malign those who have taken a stand against the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

    These legislative efforts are in response to a growing international initiative, the boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) movement, of which I have long been a supporter. The BDS movement emanates from a call for justice put out by the Palestinian people themselves. It is a Palestinian-led, international nonviolent movement that seeks to force the Israeli government to comply with international law in respect to its treatment of the Palestinian people.

    I have supported this movement because it exerts pressure without violence on the State of Israel to create lasting peace for the citizens of Israel and Palestine, peace which most citizens crave. I have witnessed the systematic violence against and humiliation of Palestinian men, women and children by members of the Israeli security forces. Their humiliation and pain is all too familiar to us South Africans.

    In South Africa, we could not have achieved our democracy without the help of people around the world, who through the use of non-violent means, such as boycotts and divestment, encouraged their governments and other corporate actors to reverse decades-long support for the Apartheid regime. My conscience compels me to stand with the Palestinians as they seek to use the same tactics of non-violence to further their efforts to end the oppression associated with the Israeli occupation.

    The legislations being proposed in the United States would have made participation in a movement like the one that ended Apartheid in South Africa extremely difficult.

    I am also deeply troubled by the rhetoric associated with the promulgation of these bills which I understand, in the instance of Maryland, included testimony comparing the boycott to the actions of the Nazis in Germany. The Nazi Holocaust which resulted in the extermination of millions of Jews is a crime of monstrous proportions. To imply that it is in any way comparable to a nonviolent initiative diminishes the horrific nature of that genocidal and tragic era in our world history.

    Whether used in South Africa, the US South, or India, boycotts have resulted in a transformative change that not only brought freedom and justice to the victims but also peace and reconciliation for the oppressors. I strongly oppose any piece of legislation meant to punish or deter individuals from pursuing this transformative aspiration. And I remain forever hopeful that, like the nonviolent efforts that have preceded it, the BDS movement will ultimately become a catalyst for honest peace and reconciliation for all our brothers and sisters, both Palestinian and Israeli, in the Holy Land.

    Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/tutu-condemns-us-efforts-curb-free-speech-palestine
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 08:04:10 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 03, 2014, 07:58:28 PM
Archbishop Emeritus of Cape Town Desmond Tutu, a legendary figure in the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, issued this statement on 2 April 2014 condemning escalating legislative efforts in the United States to curb freedom of speech and ostracize those who support justice in Palestine.

    Statement by Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu on US Efforts to Curb Freedom of Speech

    I am writing today to express grave concern about a wave of legislative measures in the United States aimed at punishing and intimidating those who speak their conscience and challenge the human rights violations endured by the Palestinian people. In legislatures in Maryland, New York, Illinois, Florida, and even the United States Congress, bills have been proposed that would either bar funding to academic associations or seek to malign those who have taken a stand against the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

    These legislative efforts are in response to a growing international initiative, the boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) movement, of which I have long been a supporter. The BDS movement emanates from a call for justice put out by the Palestinian people themselves. It is a Palestinian-led, international nonviolent movement that seeks to force the Israeli government to comply with international law in respect to its treatment of the Palestinian people.

    I have supported this movement because it exerts pressure without violence on the State of Israel to create lasting peace for the citizens of Israel and Palestine, peace which most citizens crave. I have witnessed the systematic violence against and humiliation of Palestinian men, women and children by members of the Israeli security forces. Their humiliation and pain is all too familiar to us South Africans.

    In South Africa, we could not have achieved our democracy without the help of people around the world, who through the use of non-violent means, such as boycotts and divestment, encouraged their governments and other corporate actors to reverse decades-long support for the Apartheid regime. My conscience compels me to stand with the Palestinians as they seek to use the same tactics of non-violence to further their efforts to end the oppression associated with the Israeli occupation.

    The legislations being proposed in the United States would have made participation in a movement like the one that ended Apartheid in South Africa extremely difficult.

    I am also deeply troubled by the rhetoric associated with the promulgation of these bills which I understand, in the instance of Maryland, included testimony comparing the boycott to the actions of the Nazis in Germany. The Nazi Holocaust which resulted in the extermination of millions of Jews is a crime of monstrous proportions. To imply that it is in any way comparable to a nonviolent initiative diminishes the horrific nature of that genocidal and tragic era in our world history.

    Whether used in South Africa, the US South, or India, boycotts have resulted in a transformative change that not only brought freedom and justice to the victims but also peace and reconciliation for the oppressors. I strongly oppose any piece of legislation meant to punish or deter individuals from pursuing this transformative aspiration. And I remain forever hopeful that, like the nonviolent efforts that have preceded it, the BDS movement will ultimately become a catalyst for honest peace and reconciliation for all our brothers and sisters, both Palestinian and Israeli, in the Holy Land.

    Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/tutu-condemns-us-efforts-curb-free-speech-palestine
The Yanks have painted themselves into a corner over Palestine. To see Samantha Power, the soi disant human rights defender, threaten the PA blue murder if they go to the UN, is incredible. She is such a hypocrite. 
No American politician bar Ron and Rand Paul is capable of being honest about Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 08:19:16 PM
Not looking good for Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.583709#

In an emergency meeting Thursday evening between U.S. envoy Martin Indyk and the Israeli and Palestinian negotiating teams, both teams issued new demands. The meeting was aimed at pulling the peace process out of the crisis precipitated by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry's decision to cancel his scheduled visit to the region and place the responsibility for a solution in the hands of Israel and the Palestinians. Participants at the emergency session dubbed it a "tough battle."

Justice Minister Tzipi Livni, who represented Israel in the meeting, submitted a formal request to the Palestinians, asking them to withdraw their application to join 15 international conventions. The Palestinian negotiating team, headed by Saeb Erekat, demanded deliberations on the core issues still outstanding, including recognition of the 1967 borders, as well as recognition of East Jerusalem as the future capital of Palestine. "We didn't come here to discuss packages, we came to discuss the core issues," Erekat said in the meeting.

A senior Israeli official stressed that if the application is not rescinded and the negotiations are not extended, Israel will take a number of punitive measures against the Palestinian Authority.

A second senior Israeli official informed about what was discussed at the meeting said the application to the United Nations agencies had created new conditions, in light of which Israel would not be able to release the 26 Palestinians of the fourth prisoner release.

A third senior Israeli figure said that staffers in the Prime Minister's Office had begun deliberating over the possible sanctions that could be taken in the event the Palestinians persist in their applications to the UN. Among the possibilities that are on the table are suspending the transfer to the PA of taxes collected by Israel on behalf of the Palestinians, moving to collect the hundreds of millions of shekels the PA owed the Israel Electric Corporation and imposing restrictions on PA activities in Area C of the West Bank, which under the Oslo Accords is under exclusive Israeli control.

In the meeting, Livni told Erekat that the Palestinians' unilateral move was carried out at a time when the Israeli government was making a genuine, coordinated effort to reach a deal on extending the negotiations that was to include the prisoner release, and clarified that the fourth prisoner release would not be possible in light of the move.

"You knew that well when you acted," Livni told Erekat. "The agreements on the prisoner released were subject to the fulfillment of the Palestinian promise not to turn to the UN through the end of April. No one-sided move will advance the negotiations, and you must withdraw your requests and return to the negotiating table."

The Palestinian representatives said in response that they had not come to the meeting in order to discuss the fourth prisoner release, adding that this issue had been agreed upon with the United States and that Israel violated that agreement.


"If you escalate the situation against us, we will pursue you as war criminals in all the international forums," Erekat told Livni in response to her threat of Israeli sanctions against the Palestinians.

Palestinian demands

The Palestinians issued six main demands in connection to the core issues at the meeting:

1. A letter of commitment from Benjamin Netanyahu, in which the Israeli prime minister recognizes the 1967 borders and recognizes East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.

2. The release of 1,200 Palestinian prisoners, including Marwan Barghouti, Ahmed Sa'adat and Fuad Shubaki.

3. Implementation of the border crossing agreements and an end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

4. The return of the Palestinians who were expelled from the West Bank in 2002 after a siege in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity.

5. A freeze on construction in Jewish settlements, including Jerusalem, the reopening of Palestinian institutions in East Jerusalem and family reunification for 15,000 Palestinians.

6. Prohibition of the entry, for the purpose of carrying out arrests and assassinations, of Israeli security forces into areas of the West Bank that are under Palestinian control, and the transfer of Area C to Palestinian control.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 03, 2014, 08:58:07 PM
btw, I meant to ask you about this..

Quote from: seafoid on March 24, 2014, 03:21:17 PM
I don't think it was right to plant Europe's Jewish problem in the Middle East but it was done and there is no changing that.

Can you elaborate on what you meant by Europe's Jewish "problem" ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 03, 2014, 09:10:15 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.582534

Last week, 14-year-old Yusef a-Shawamreh and two of his friends left their village of Deir al-Asal al-Fauqa in the southern West Bank to pick plants on his family's field, west of the separation fence.

The three youths passed through a wide gap in the fence, which had existed for at least two years and which the Israel Defense Forces hadn't bothered to fix.

After crossing the fence, the boys heard three or four gunshots. The firing came from an IDF ambush, a few dozen meters away. According to an investigation by B'Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, released on Wednesday, the shots had been fired with no warning.

A-Shawamreh was wounded in the hip and fell to the ground bleeding. He managed to crawl to the road, but then the soldiers emerged from their hiding place.

The soldiers arrested the other two boys and a-Shawamreh received preliminary medical treatment. A military ambulance arrived only half an hour later, although an IDF camp is located a mere two kilometers away. Meanwhile, the boy bled to death.

A-Shawamreh was declared dead at Soroka Medical Center, Be'er Sheva, where he was eventually taken.

The IDF spokesman's statement said the soldiers taking part in the ambush noticed "three suspicious Palestinians who were vandalizing the separation fence, and opened fire at them according to the procedure for arresting a suspect. When the Palestinians refused to respond to the soldiers' calls, the force opened fire, wounding one of the Palestinians."

The details in B'Tselem's investigation and Amira Hass' report (Haaretz, March 24) paint a completely different picture. The boys did not vandalize the fence, and the soldiers fired at them without warning.

This chain of events is extremely grave. Opening fire automatically on people who pass through a gap in the fence is abhorrent and despicable. A-Shawamreh is the victim of a war crime.

There is no other way to describe the circumstances of his death.

The IDF cannot make do with its spokesman's attempt to whitewash the incident. It must hold a vigorous investigation and then put on trial the soldiers responsible and the commanders who sent them on the mission.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 03, 2014, 09:17:03 PM
Answer the question Seafoid.

Also, you never answered my question about the "Is John Terry a muslim"  thread...what are you trying to hide ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 10, 2014, 11:52:15 PM
Still no answer.

Seriously Seafoid..what was Europes "Jewish problem" ?

Can you explain what you meant ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 11, 2014, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on April 10, 2014, 11:52:15 PM
Still no answer.

Seriously Seafoid..what was Europes "Jewish problem" ?

Can you explain what you meant ?
Have you ever read up on the Holocaust in the Netherlands ?
75% of the Jews in Holland were murdered.
How did that happen?

They always talk about Anne Frank now.  Anne Frank is a story people can relate to.
They never talk about Apeldoorn. I wonder why.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/nazioccupation/apeldoornsebos.html

Do you understand why ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 15, 2014, 12:40:36 PM
On Monday, Israeli forces blocked all main entrances to the village of Nabi Saleh, and attacked anyone who attempted to enter or leave the village.

The Israeli regime imposed the blockade on the village after declaring it a 'military closed zone.' Residents of the village complain that they are facing a humanitarian crisis after the blockade.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/04/14/358566/israel-continues-siege-on-wb-village/

Israeli occupation forces this morning demolished a number of water wells and agriculture infrastructure in Hebron, handed over demolition orders to owners of two residential houses in Bethlehem.

Local Palestinian sources said that the Israeli forces invaded the Palestinian neighbourhood of Abulhawa in Hebron.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/10785-israel-demolishes-wells-in-hebron

Thousands of Palestinians living in the Shuafat refugee camp, which is located in East Jerusalem, have been living without running water for more than a month, due to the failure of the Israeli municipality in the western part of the holy city to supply the necessary water.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/10783-palestinian-refugees-in-jerusalem-without-water-for-more-than-a-month

A 44-year-old Palestinian woman Nuha Mohammed Qatamesh died on Monday after inhaling tear gas fired by Israeli occupation forces in al-Jadawel area, which is located between Aida refugee camp and Beit Jala, west of the West Bank city of Bethlehem.

A medical source in Beit Jala Government Hospital said that Qatamesh died after she inhaled tear gas fired by Israeli forces during clashes that erupted Monday evening in Aida camp.

http://english.pnn.ps/index.php/politics/7358-palestinian-woman-dies-of-inhaling-israeli-tear-gas-in-bethlehem

The University of Haifa has launched an academic course to combat the online "delegitimization of Israel", in what it claims to be a "first" for academia. In a press release dated 30 March, the University proudly describes the four credit course, offered by the Department of Multi-Disciplinary Studies, as preparing "students to be unofficial 'ambassadors' for Israel on the Internet".

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/blogs/politics/10901-haifa-university-launches-course-in-pro-israel-propaganda

As Christians get ready to celebrate Easter, Palestinian Christians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are envious of fellow Christians from all over the world who are able to visit Jerusalem's holy Christian sites and worship freely while they cannot.

Since Israel cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the occupied Palestinian territories in the early 1990s, Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip have been required to get Israeli army permission before they can enter Jerusalem.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/04/west-bank-palestinian-christians-denied-access-to-holy-places-in-jerusalem-during-easter.html#sthash.AygVOeMk.dpuf
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 24, 2014, 02:48:13 AM
Fatah and Hamas agree landmark pact after seven-year rift




The two main rival Palestinian factions have signed an accord designed to end seven years of sometimes violent division, paving the way for elections later in the year and the formation of a unity government within weeks.

The move, after a day of talks between Hamas and Fatah in Gaza that lasted until three in the morning, comes less than a week before the expiry of the deadline for US-sponsored peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority on 29 April and is certain to complicate US efforts to seek another nine-month extension to those talks.

Israel immediately responded by saying the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, was moving to peace with Hamas instead of peace with Israel. "He has to choose," said the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu. "Does he want peace with Hamas or peace with Israel? You can have one but not the other. I hope he chooses peace, so far he hasn't done so."

After the agreement was announced, Israel cancelled a planned session of peace negotiations with the Palestinians. It also launched an air strike on a site in the north of the Gaza Strip, wounding 12 people including children, which underscored the deep mutual suspicion and hostility that persists. Speaking in Ramallah in the West Bank, Abbas said in his view the pact with Hamas did not contradict the peace talks he was pursuing with Israel, adding that an independent state living peacefully alongside Israel remained his goal.

The agreement, signed in Gaza City on Wednesday by Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister of Hamas, and a senior Palestinian Liberation Organisation delegation dispatched by Abbas marks the latest attempt in three years of efforts to end the discord between the two factions.

A packed news conference in Gaza in a hall adjoining Haniyeh's home in Beach refugee camp cheered as he announced the deal to end the split between the two groups and between Gaza and the West Bank. "This is the good news we have to tell the people: the era of discord is ended," Haniyeh said.

Although there have been failed attempts to end the rift before, this agreement comes with both factions facing internal problems. Hamas has become ever more isolated internationally, particularly since the like-minded Muslim Brotherhood was ousted in Egypt last year. The new military-led authorities in Cairo have cracked down on the smuggling tunnels into Gaza.

Fatah and Abbas have been damaged by the failure of peace negotiations to deliver results amid continuing Israeli settlement building, all of which has pushed the issue of reconciliation up the agenda.

Despite talk before the announcement about the quick formation of a national unity government and a decree for elections, the wording of the agreement was less cut and dried – suggesting a possible timing for elections in at "least six months" after talks to try to form a new government by agreement.

The statement was also not clear whether Hamas figures would be represented in any new government – which could lead to a cut in EU and US funding. Sceptics, however, noted that similar agreements between the two sides – under Arab sponsorship – have been reached in the past but never implemented.

In Washington state department spokesperson Jen Psaki said the US was troubled by the announcement, which "could seriously complicate" negotiations to extend peace negotiations. "This certainly is disappointing and raises concerns about our efforts to extend the negotiations," she said.

"It is hard to see how Israel can be expected to negotiate with a government that doesn't believe in its right to exist." She also indicated there could be broader implications for an array of US policies towards Palestine, including aid, should Hamas enter into government without abiding a set of principles, including recognition of Israel, agreement to previous agreements, and a commitment to non-violence, dictated by Washington.

Secretary of state John Kerry spoke on the phone with Netanyahu on Tuesday, while other senior US diplomats on the ground have spoken with Mahmoud Abbas.

The root of recent conflict between the two largest Palestinian movements follows the 2006 elections which Hamas won but the west, Israel and Abbas largely refused to recognise. Hamas asserted its control of Gaza in 2007 leaving Abbas in charge of only parts of the West Bank. Since then both sides have become entrenched in their territories, setting up respective governments and their own security forces, and arresting their rivals.

Key stumbling blocks in previous attempts at reconciliation have been focused on security forces and on the Palestinian Authority's security co-operation arrangements on the West Bank that have seen the authority arrest and jail members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

There was no mention in the announcement that security co-operation with Israel would change. Despite Netanyahu's comments, later in the day a senior Israeli official was more cautious about the implications of the Gaza deal saying Netanyahu office was consulting on it. prime minister's office is consulting tonight the meaning of it. It does not bode well but for the moment the policy is wait and see."


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/plo-hamas-agree-unity-pact-form-government
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 24, 2014, 06:30:48 PM
Shocking video of Israeli occupation forces detaining a 6 year old boy yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTxJb-HLp70#t=63
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 26, 2014, 12:45:24 AM
Quote from: seafoid on April 11, 2014, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on April 10, 2014, 11:52:15 PM
Still no answer.

Seriously Seafoid..what was Europes "Jewish problem" ?

Can you explain what you meant ?
Have you ever read up on the Holocaust in the Netherlands ?
75% of the Jews in Holland were murdered.
How did that happen?

They always talk about Anne Frank now.  Anne Frank is a story people can relate to.
They never talk about Apeldoorn. I wonder why.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/nazioccupation/apeldoornsebos.html

Do you understand why ?

Why do you think 75% of Jews in Holland were murdered ? I'd like to hear your explanation ?

What is the significance of Appeldoorn ? I think you are justifying anti-Semitism on the basis of how jews treated fellow jews with mental illness  ? That is a strange justification.

             
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 26, 2014, 01:56:16 AM
Let it be noted that Seafoid still has  not answered what is Europes "Jewish" problem.

Nor has "Give her Dixie" explained why he associates with obvious extremist elements ( e.g Malaysian extremists)

I wish these lads would, for once, just engage and debate a point or two. What are they afraid of ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 01, 2014, 10:48:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 11, 2014, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on April 10, 2014, 11:52:15 PM
Still no answer.

Seriously Seafoid..what was Europes "Jewish problem" ?

Can you explain what you meant ?
Have you ever read up on the Holocaust in the Netherlands ?
75% of the Jews in Holland were murdered.
How did that happen?

They always talk about Anne Frank now.  Anne Frank is a story people can relate to.
They never talk about Apeldoorn. I wonder why.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/nazioccupation/apeldoornsebos.html

Do you understand why ?

ok, one more time...please Seafoid, in your own words...what exactly do you mean by Europes "Jewish problem".
The readers of Gaaboard are intelligent lads so I think you owe it to them to explain your position in detail.

No links. No cheap get out clauses. No plausible denial .......just your own words. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 24, 2014, 01:42:23 PM
Father blames Israeli military in Palestinian teens' deaths

By Ivan Watson, Kareem Khadder and Mike Schwartz, CNN
May 22, 2014

Beitunya, West Bank (CNN) -- Fakher Zayed is accustomed to trouble erupting on his doorstep.

For the past several years, Palestinian protesters have often clashed with Israeli security forces in front of his house. The four-story building stands on the edge of the West Bank village of Beitunya, within sight of the Israeli separation barrier and Ofer prison.

At first, the May 15 anniversary of the "Nakba," the exodus of more than 700,000 Palestinians after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, looked like just another day of Israeli-Palestinian skirmishing.

"(The Palestinians) were throwing stones, and the (Israeli) soldiers throw the tear gas. Plastic bullets," Zayed said. "They run away. After three or four minutes, they came back to throw stones again."

To protect his home, his family and his carpentry business, Zayed installed more than half a dozen security cameras around his building, which operate 24 hours a day.

Last Thursday, these cameras captured the chilling shooting deaths of two Palestinian teenagers. According to six hours of raw, unedited video distributed by the children's rights advocacy organization Defense for Children International and reviewed by CNN, the two boys -- ages 17 and 16 -- were shot on the same patch of asphalt on the same day, the second victim 73 minutes after the first.

The preliminary IDF inquiry indicates that no live fire was shot at all on Thursday during the riots in Beitunya and we have to determine what caused this result.
Lt Colonel Peter Lerner, Israeli Defense Forces

The families of the boys, as well as Zayed, blame the Israeli military for the killings.

"This is the first time they're shooting to kill here," Zayed said, speaking to CNN while standing on the exact spot outside his home where the two boys were filmed being shot.

But an Israeli military spokesman say its forces fired no live rounds during hours of clashes on May 15.

"During that demonstration that was extremely violent, the Israeli Defense Force used crowd-control methods and riot-dispersal means to prevent and control the overflow of the violence," Lt. Col. Peter Lerner told CNN.

"The preliminary IDF inquiry indicates that no live fire was shot at all on Thursday during the riots in Beitunya, and we have to determine what caused this result," Lerner added.

Security camera footage

CNN producer Kareem Khadder was filming the clashes in Beitunya on May 15.

Several dozen Palestinian youths used the wall of Zayed's house as cover. Periodically, they jumped out to hurl stones at about a half-dozen Israeli soldiers and border police officers standing on a hilltop perhaps 100 meters away. The Israeli forces responded with volleys of tear gas while periodically firing rubber-coated bullets from their rifles.

At one point, Khadder filmed a Palestinian teenager who appeared to be struck in the leg with one of these semi-lethal rounds. The boy hopped and limped for a few seconds in obvious pain but then turned around and rejoined the clashes.

At 1:45 p.m. May 15, Zayed's security camera caught the moment when one of the stone-throwing boys was mortally wounded.

Seventeen-year-old Nadeem Nouwarah was dressed in a sleeveless black t-shirt, wearing a black and white kefiyeh scarf to cover his face and carrying a backpack over both shoulders. As he walked toward the Israeli military positions in front of Zayed's door, Nouwarah suddenly fell forward, landing briefly on his hands, before rolling over to lie on his back.

Within seconds, a crowd of Palestinians gathered to lift Nouwarah and rush him to a waiting ambulance. According to a medical report, Nouwarah was pronounced dead in a hospital less than two hours later, having suffered a single bullet wound that entered his chest and passed out his back.

Though Khadder didn't know it at the time, he was filming two Israeli security troops firing their rifles at the Palestinian protesters at the same exact moment when Nouwarah was shot. In the video, it is not clear what kind of rounds the Israelis were shooting or whether their gunfire hit Nouwarah. However, Khadder's camera shows that less than 15 seconds after one of these gunshots, Palestinians were already racing to put the fatally wounded Nouwarah in the ambulance.

Suffering the effects of tear gas, Khadder soon left the protest. He was unaware that Nouwarah's wounds were fatal.

At 2:58 p.m., the security cameras filmed a second fatal shooting. Sixteen-year-old Mohammad Odeh Salameh was at the front lines of the protest, wearing a green Hamas flag as a cape as well as a green Hamas headband over his black mask.

As he was walking away from the Israeli positions, he suddenly fell to the ground and struggled briefly to get up. The boy was shot just a few steps from where Nouwarah had been wounded.

Doctors pronounced Salameh dead on arrival at the hospital, with a bullet wound that had pierced his back and exited his chest.

School in mourning

At St. George's school in Ramallah, relatives and classmates of the first victim, Nouwarah, were in mourning this week. Students wore black t-shirts with photos of the smiling boy. The eleventh-grader was pictured wearing a backward baseball cap.
The entire world should understand and know that my son was wearing a school backpack and leaving school when he was assassinated in cold blood.
Siam Nouwarah

"There were 21 students in our grade," said his 16-year-old classmate George Yousef. "Now, we are 20."

Nouwarah's father, Siam, told CNN he had expressly instructed his eldest son not to attend the Nakba protests.

"Afterwards, I felt he was not convinced with what I told him," said Siam, who works as a hairdresser in Ramallah.

Nouwarah appeared to have gone to the anti-Israel protests directly from school on the afternoon of May 15. His father showed CNN the bloody backpack his son was wearing when he was shot.

There was a small hole in the bag, in roughly the same location where the bullet would have exited Nouwarah's body.

Siam Nouwarah then pulled a packet of bloodstained papers out of the bag. They were photocopies of a textbook that included the writings of Anton Chekhov, accompanied by a teenage student's handwriting, doodles and class notes.

"We were surprised when we took the school backpack back from the hospital to find this bullet inside," said the elder Nouwarah. He then pulled a small used bullet stored in a plastic bag out of the backpack.

The metal slug appeared to be from a 556 NATO round, the standard ammunition used in M-16 rifles carried by Israeli security forces. It was impossible for CNN to confirm the authenticity of the bullet.

Siam Nouwarah said he was saving it for a forensic examination. He accuses Israeli soldiers of killing his son.

"The entire world should understand and know that my son was wearing a school backpack and leaving school when he was assassinated in cold blood," the grieving father said.

Ballistics

On Thursday, Lerner, the Israeli military spokesman, told CNN that a request had been put in with the Palestinian Authority to do a ballistic report on the bullet found in Nouwarah's backpack.

"That round that was presented shouldn't have been in the bag, so it also raises a question," he said. Lerner repeated the military's assertion that Israeli security forces fired only rubber-coated bullets -- which are not designed to penetrate bodies -- in Beitunya on May 15.

Regarding the CNN video of the Israeli security forces firing rifles at the Palestinian demonstrators at the moment when Nouwarah was shot, Lerner said the weapons being used had an attachment at the end of the barrel for firing rubber-coated projectiles.

Asked whether there could been some malfunction or mistake that would have led to the firing of a lethal round rather than a rubber-coated projectile, Lerner said, "I'm not aware of any malfunction at this time."

Meanwhile, the U.S. State Department has joined several human rights groups calling for an investigation into the deadly incident.

"I am deeply concerned about the circumstances surrounding the recent death of two Palestinian minors," wrote Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for the United Nations in the West Bank.

According to initial reports, Gunness added, both boys appeared "unarmed and appeared to pose no direct threat."

cctv footage of killing:   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsUuUsIx4Ww

CNN footage:               

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2014/05/22/pkg-watson-4a-west-bank-teens-shot.cnn



http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/22/world/meast/israel-west-bank-shooting/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 24, 2014, 01:56:11 PM
For the first time, the Holy Land will witness a fearless pope

Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, had better brace himself: Pope Francis arrives in the Middle East on Saturday. The pontiff's words, of course, will be of the need to improve relations between Christians, Jews and Muslims. But the visit's semiotics will send out an altogether tougher message.

When the previous two popes went on pilgrimage to the region, they went first to Jordan, then to Israel, and then to the Occupied Territories. Francis has altered the order. He arrives in Jordan tomorrow but is insisting on then crossing into the occupied territories before visiting Israel. Francis, a man known for the potency of his symbolism and gestures, is making a point.

You see that point more clearly if you look at the official itinerary issued by the Vatican. The first thing the pope will do when he enters the Israeli-occupied West Bank is to call on "the president of the state of Palestine". The wording is significant: Francis is announcing that he is visiting an entity that Israel, like the United States, insists does not exist.

Pope Francis arrives at a time when peace talks have broken down and the Palestinian leadership has been taking unilateral steps in the international arena. Most significantly, a pact was signed a month ago between Fatah and Hamas to repair the rift between the rival factions. There is talk of a Palestinian unity government being formed within weeks. Many in the Vatican see the Fatah-Hamas reconciliation as having been carefully timed to come to fruition just as the pope visits.

Previous popes have trodden gingerly in the Holy Land. But Francis seems determined to back up the Vatican's agreement with the UN declaration in 2012 that Palestine is a member state. He will be based in the residence of the papal nuncio in annexed East Jerusalem; and, though he will venture into Israel to pay his respects at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial and visit Israel's president and two chief rabbis, he will meet Netanyahu at the Vatican-owned Notre Dame complex that lies "on the seam line" between East and West Jerusalem.

The nearest Pope Benedict got to politics on his trip in 2009 was to describe the 26ft-high Israeli security wall, which cuts through the West Bank like a concrete scar, as one of the "saddest sights" of his visit. But Francis, known for his off-the-cuff remarks and vivid turns of phrase, could well say something explosive when, after saying mass at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, he has lunch with Palestinian children from the Aida and Dheisheh refugee camps.

The Vatican is publicly insisting that the main point of the trip is to mend fences between Catholic and Orthodox Christianity. The official theme – "So that they may be one" – is timed to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the meeting between a previous pope and the Orthodox patriarch, which lifted mutual decrees of excommunication that had split the churches in 1054, causing a thousand years of Great Schism.

Francis has other concerns. Christianity is in rapid decline throughout the Middle East. A century ago 20% of the population were Christians; today just 4%. Things have got much worse in the last decade with the invasion of Iraq, the Arab spring, and civil war in Syria.

Attacks on Christians are happening in Israel too, with firebombings and murders by Muslims and Jewish extremists spraying "Death to Arabs and Christians" and "Jesus is garbage" graffiti on Christian sites. In Bethlehem the Christian population has plummeted from about 60% in 1990 to 15%. Catholic leaders fear that, if the trend continues, the Holy Land will become a spiritual Disneyland, full of tourist pilgrim attractions but devoid of local believers.

But it will be Francis's stance on the Israeli-Palestinian issue that could have the greatest political ramifications. For decades the Vatican has favoured a two-state solution featuring security guarantees for Israel, sovereignty for the Palestinians, and a special status for Jerusalem and holy sites.

Inside Israel there has been increasing frustration, from some Israelis and even a few Palestinians, over whether agreement can ever be reached on two separate states. But the Palestinians must be given a proper state of their own – a single state would become a mere apartheid-style parody of democracy with two classes of citizen.

Pope Francis understands that. To emphasise two-state inevitability he will lay a wreath on the grave of Theodor Herzl, the Hungarian founder of modern political Zionism. He was told by a previous pope, when asking for help in establishing a Jewish state, that "the Jews have not recognised Our Lord, therefore we cannot recognise the Jewish people". The wreath will lay to rest that institutional antisemitism.

In all this the pope will be preaching a powerful message about "co-existence without fear". Francis is breaking precedent by including a Jew and a Muslim in the official Vatican delegation: a rabbi and imam who worked with him on interfaith dialogue in Argentina will incarnate the call for "co-existence". And to emphasise his "without fear" line, the pope has rejected the armoured car provided to previous popes and heads of state.

Whether any of this will shame the intransigents into making concessions that might at least allow the resumption of peace talks is another matter. But it will not be for lack of clarity from the visitor from Rome.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/22/pope-francis-holy-land-two-state-palestinians
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 02:00:56 PM
If you care about Israel, silence is no longer an option

http://www.reiner-bernstein.de/genferinitiative/ge_erklaerungen/Appell-Diaspora_22.03.13.pdf
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 24, 2014, 02:21:07 PM
Israelis demolish Negev mosque as ethnic cleansing continues

Israeli bulldozers guarded by a large force of police started to demolish the mosque in Wadi Al-Niam in the Negev on Thursday amid residents' fears that authorities could also demolish homes in the village. A demolition order had been nailed to the mosque wall a few days earlier.

The Negev Foundation for Land and Man denounced the demolition, describing the Israeli act as a blatant assault on the sanctity of the mosque and on Arab rights to live in the Negev. It also noted that the demolition violates the right to freedom of worship as well as international laws and conventions.

The foundation also condemned the police attacks on the residents of Wadi Al-Niam, the demolition of their homes, the confiscation of their property and the destruction of their crops. It stressed that the indigenous people of the Negev Desert are determined to stay in their homes in the face of Israeli scheming and force. It appealed to Arabs in Israel and the Arabs of the Negev in particular to stand by the people of Wadi Al-Niam.

The Islamic movement in the Negev said that the demolition of the Wadi Al-Niam mosque is a criminal act by the Israelis. It is, the movement said in a statement, part of the wider ethnic cleansing of the area by which Israel wants to displace 60,000 Palestinian Arabs from their traditional home in the desert so that Jewish settlers and the Israeli army can move in.

"The people in the Negev have the right to live on their own land," said the Islamic movement. "They have the right to build on it and live on it and worship on it." The demolitions, the statement added, will only increase the people's resolve to stay put on their land.

The movement called on all human rights organisations and institutions in the Negev to stand side by side with the people of Wadi Al Niam, defend their legitimate rights and confront Israel's ethnic cleansing.


- See more at: http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/11664-israelis-demolish-negev-mosque-as-ethnic-cleansing-continues#sthash.FVY2Oanh.cuyiQbMQ.dpuf
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 02:26:23 PM
This excellent, well balanced article by a Palestinian Student in the US sums up exactly what I have been talking about. It confirms that the greatest tragedy to befall the Palestinan cause has been its infiltration by  anti-Semites.

QuoteIt happens every time I visit the U.S., and it's happened increasingly over the last five years. I say I'm Palestinian (usually after trying out the less inflammatory "I'm from Jerusalem" and then being pressed for detail). There's a pause, and then—"Oh, so... is it a problem for you that I'm Jewish?"

There it is. The assumption that because I am Palestinian, I harbor animosity toward Jews—and not just Israeli Jews, but all Jews, all the time, everywhere. It was one of the first questions I got asked when my new roommate met me at the beginning of my college career, and again as I mingled at my first-ever internship lunch. It was what made a Jewish kid switch seats and move across the room from me during a seminar—he was worried, I was later informed, about sitting next to a Palestinian. It's happened time and again, yet it still takes me by surprise.

Despite this initial hurdle, I've formed close relationships with many Jews—and that, in turn, often inspires condescension from others. It's adorable that one of my closest friends is Jewish; it's inspiring to see us eating together and making jokes. Such comments may be meant benignly, but they deftly reduce a 60-odd-year struggle for political independence to a squabble between siblings.

I try to explain, as mildly as I can, that my having Jewish friends doesn't signify the end of the grim state of affairs in the region. I point out that, historically, Arabs and Jews actually lived pretty well together. In spite of rhetoric to the contrary, the Mideast crisis isn't a case of why-can't-they-just-get-along. It isn't about ethnic differences. It isn't hummus vs. hoummous.

Sometimes, instead of a pleased-and-patronizing outsider, I find myself confronted with sneaky, lurking, real anti-Semites who unabashedly come out of the woodwork when they hear that I'm Palestinian. "Hey, wanna hear a good one?" a stranger will ask conspiratorially. I cut him off before he finishes his joke, as soon as I can tell where it's headed. "Dude," I say. "You have no idea how badly you've misread this situation."

It's not just that I get how hurtful this type of discrimination can be. As both a Palestinian and an Arab in a post-9/11 world, I've been on the receiving end of it. It's not even just because I can picture the faces of the Jews I know and love, for whom those jokes would strike deep and painfully resonant chords.

There's another reason I despise these jokes. The Jews I meet might assume that I sympathize with the bomb-wielding extremists who want to push Israel into the sea. (To be clear: I do not.) But these closet anti-Semites assume that I sympathize with a species of historically European anti-Semitism —the kind that involves jokes about Jews hoarding money and controlling the media, the kind that involves big noses and black hats, the kind that led to the Jews' persecution in the West. And those canards have nothing to do with Palestinians.

In fact, it was this very discrimination and irrational hatred that drove the need for a safe Jewish homeland, after Theodor Herzl anticipated the deadly turn the already-rampant European anti-Semitism would take. It is this continued anti-Semitism that apparently vindicates Israel's most segregationist policies, invoking fears from centuries of persecution.

Moreover, unjustified hatred of the Jewish people reduces any criticism of Israel's practices to mere bigotry. There are concrete reasons to be at odds with Israel, reasons that include arbitrary arrests, evictions, settlements, and harassment, and simply the fact that most Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem aren't recognized as voting citizens. Anti-Semitism—whether imported or home-grown—shatters those reasons into splinters of irrational fear.

To lump the Palestinian struggle—for human rights, for recognition, for nationality—in with an age-old prejudice isn't reductionist; it's downright absurd. In one fell swoop, a misguided bigot can manage to invoke the very sentiment that forced Jews out of Europe; make me, a Palestinian, part of the same anti-Semitism that led to Israel's creation; and diminish all legitimate criticism of Israel to a species of European Jew-hating. It would almost be artful, if it weren't so depressing.

When it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, misconceptions and generalizations reign supreme. Of course, that's true of any complicated political situation. But what's particular (and particularly damaging) about this case is that those misconceptions often come as much from outside the region as within it. Israeli Jews don't always expect hostility from me, as a Palestinian (in fact, they often don't). It's the Diaspora Jews, it's the people in the West who read the news, who see "Palestinian" as synonymous with "Jew-hater." But it's crucial to understand that, for any Palestinian, anti-Semitism—whether actual, perceived, or simply expected—is our worst enemy. At a very basic level, differentiating between irrational prejudice and informed criticism of Israel is what keeps Palestinian discourse legitimate.

So, to set the record straight: I'm a Palestinian, and I don't hate Jews. That's not a contradiction; it's a personal, political, and moral imperative.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/how-anti-jewish-jokes-hurt-the-palestinian-cause/360039/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/how-anti-jewish-jokes-hurt-the-palestinian-cause/360039/)

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 24, 2014, 02:36:22 PM
Its ironic that give her dicks and seafood are a barrier to Palestinian struggle, not an aid.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Very interesting, Mike

I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

Anti-Semites are now people Israel doesn't like.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Very interesting, Mike

I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

Anti-Semites are now people Israel doesn't like.

Yes, its remarkable the way abusers used the cover of the cloth to cover-up their true intentions. It's exactly the way anti-semites use the cover of the palestinian cause to hide their true intentions.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Very interesting, Mike

I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

Anti-Semites are now people Israel doesn't like.

Yes, its remarkable the way abusers used the cover of the cloth to cover-up their true intentions. It's exactly the way anti-semites use the cover of the palestinian cause to hide their true intentions.
like treating palestinians with respect is equivalent to membership of the SS and goes against everything that judaism stands for. What are you on ?

Israel has been warned by so many jewish moderates to do the right thing and end the occupation.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Very interesting, Mike

I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

Anti-Semites are now people Israel doesn't like.

Yes, its remarkable the way abusers used the cover of the cloth to cover-up their true intentions. It's exactly the way anti-semites use the cover of the palestinian cause to hide their true intentions.
like treating palestinians with respect is equivalent to membership of the SS and goes against everything that judaism stands for. What are you on ?

Israel has been warned by so many jewish moderates to do the right thing and end the occupation.

And who is going to moderate you Seafoid ? That is the real question. It is interesting that it takes someone like me to chase after you relentlessly before you suddenly start talking about moderation....but,nevertheless, its progress I suppose.

Now read that article that I posted by the Palestinian student like a good lad and comment on her astute observations. I have, time and again, voiced my condemnation of the Israelis yet you have never, not once, acknowledged the truth of what I have been saying and what that Student is saying.

You can start by condemning give-her-dixies obvious links with anti-semitic extremists like Mattias Chang and the  racists over on www.barnesreview.org. If you are truly a moderate then such condemnation should be routine.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 09:45:41 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Very interesting, Mike

I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

Anti-Semites are now people Israel doesn't like.

Yes, its remarkable the way abusers used the cover of the cloth to cover-up their true intentions. It's exactly the way anti-semites use the cover of the palestinian cause to hide their true intentions.
like treating palestinians with respect is equivalent to membership of the SS and goes against everything that judaism stands for. What are you on ?

Israel has been warned by so many jewish moderates to do the right thing and end the occupation.

And who is going to moderate you Seafoid ? That is the real question. It is interesting that it takes someone like me to chase after you relentlessly before you suddenly start talking about moderation....but,nevertheless, its progress I suppose.

Now read that article that I posted by the Palestinian student like a good lad and comment on her astute observations. I have, time and again, voiced my condemnation of the Israelis yet you have never, not once, acknowledged the truth of what I have been saying and what that Student is saying.

You can start by condemning give-her-dixies obvious links with anti-semitic extremists like Mattias Chang and the  racists over on www.barnesreview.org. If you are truly a moderate then such condemnation should be routine.
GHD is a decent person. I don't care about barnes review. He went to Gaza to help the people who have been abandoned by Europe because of what Europe did to its Jews. He's not anti-Semitic and neither am I.

you're wasting your time trying to get a rise out of us.

Israel is a car crash. The EU has now banned chicken imports from Jewish settlements and that's just the start.
If Judaism is run by extremist right wingers it's up to ordinary Jews to reclaim the religion and reinstil the values that gave it its longevity.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 09:57:15 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Very interesting, Mike

I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

Anti-Semites are now people Israel doesn't like.

Yes, its remarkable the way abusers used the cover of the cloth to cover-up their true intentions. It's exactly the way anti-semites use the cover of the palestinian cause to hide their true intentions.
like treating palestinians with respect is equivalent to membership of the SS and goes against everything that judaism stands for. What are you on ?

Israel has been warned by so many jewish moderates to do the right thing and end the occupation.

And who is going to moderate you Seafoid ? That is the real question. It is interesting that it takes someone like me to chase after you relentlessly before you suddenly start talking about moderation....but,nevertheless, its progress I suppose.

Now read that article that I posted by the Palestinian student like a good lad and comment on her astute observations. I have, time and again, voiced my condemnation of the Israelis yet you have never, not once, acknowledged the truth of what I have been saying and what that Student is saying.

You can start by condemning give-her-dixies obvious links with anti-semitic extremists like Mattias Chang and the  racists over on www.barnesreview.org. If you are truly a moderate then such condemnation should be routine.
Have you discussed this with your therapist  ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 10:28:03 PM
Here's how ludicrous Jewish politics is in 2014

Major Jewish lobbies in the US oppose divestment of oil and gas companies to fight climate change because it might lead to divestment against Israel.

Why? Because the whole world is against the occupation.
and there are only a few muppets outside the States who buy the notion that opposition to the occupation is anti-Semitic.

Luckily we have one here on the board.

http://forward.com/articles/198655/jewish-groups-push-back-in-fight-for-divestment-fr/?p=all
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 10:37:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 09:45:41 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Very interesting, Mike

I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

Anti-Semites are now people Israel doesn't like.

Yes, its remarkable the way abusers used the cover of the cloth to cover-up their true intentions. It's exactly the way anti-semites use the cover of the palestinian cause to hide their true intentions.
like treating palestinians with respect is equivalent to membership of the SS and goes against everything that judaism stands for. What are you on ?

Israel has been warned by so many jewish moderates to do the right thing and end the occupation.

And who is going to moderate you Seafoid ? That is the real question. It is interesting that it takes someone like me to chase after you relentlessly before you suddenly start talking about moderation....but,nevertheless, its progress I suppose.

Now read that article that I posted by the Palestinian student like a good lad and comment on her astute observations. I have, time and again, voiced my condemnation of the Israelis yet you have never, not once, acknowledged the truth of what I have been saying and what that Student is saying.

You can start by condemning give-her-dixies obvious links with anti-semitic extremists like Mattias Chang and the  racists over on www.barnesreview.org. If you are truly a moderate then such condemnation should be routine.
GHD is a decent person. I don't care about barnes review. He went to Gaza to help the people who have been abandoned by Europe because of what Europe did to its Jews. He's not anti-Semitic and neither am I.

you're wasting your time trying to get a rise out of us.

Israel is a car crash. The EU has now banned chicken imports from Jewish settlements and that's just the start.
If Judaism is run by extremist right wingers it's up to ordinary Jews to reclaim the religion and reinstil the values that gave it its longevity.

"Decent" people don't fraternize with nazis. It is astonishing that you will not condemn this site and GHD's association with it.

As for this

QuoteIf Judaism is run by extremist right wingers

wow...just wow...you are now stating that an entire religion is run by extremist right wingers.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 25, 2014, 12:37:30 AM
Israel takes the issue of boycotts very serious.......

"Anti-Boycott Law" - Prevention of Damage to the State of Israel through Boycott

The Anti-Boycott Law, passed on 11 July 2011, prohibits the public promotion of academic, economic or cultural boycott by Israeli citizens and organizations against Israeli institutions or illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. It enables the filing of civil lawsuits against anyone who calls for boycott; it creates a new "civil wrong" or tort. It also prohibits a person who calls for boycott from participating in any public tender.

The law also provides for the revocation of tax exemptions and other economic benefits given by the state from Israeli associations, as well as academic, cultural and scientific institutions which receive state support, if they call for or engage in boycott. The court may also award compensation, including punitive damages, even if no actual damage is proven.

Furthermore, the law provides that Israeli businesses, which publicly declare that they will not buy supplies or goods manufactured in the OPT may have their state-sponsored benefits revoked. As such, the law severely restricts freedom of expression and targets non-violent political opposition to the Occupation. 

http://www.adalah.org/eng/?mod=db&dld_page=law&slg=anti-boycott-law-prevention-of-damage-to-the-state-of-israel-through-boycott
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 25, 2014, 03:02:46 AM
The dead and those that don't live there have been evicted, and that includes their graves

On 21 May 2014, 8 eviction orders were pasted on structures in the cemetery at Al-Arakib and one was handed out to Sheikh Sayach Al-Turi, the Sheikh of the village.

The eviction is to be effected between 12 June and 12 July - a "flexible eviction". Some of the orders have been issued against persons who are no longer living and are buried in the cemetery, as well as against people no longer resident in the village.

Despite some 63 demolitions of the village since 2010, the cemetery, with several homes and other structures within its confines, including a small improvised mosque and minaret for calling people to prayer, has so far been left untouched by the authorities.

However, last March various authorities entered the perimeter and photograph the buildings for the first time.  This latest order is a new and very disturbing development with far reaching implications beyond the confines of Al-Arakib itself. It could cause a conflagration throughout the Negev.

Al-Arakib, a village of some 350 people went over a massive demolishion in July 2010, including its crops and water supply. The residents however, in spite of brutal police behavior, arrests and injuries did not give up and have maintained a constant presence, rebuilding their structures each time the village was demolished anew.  The Police sued the families and has claimed over 1.8 million shekels from the residents as 'payment' for expenses they had  because of the demolition operations. 

http://us4.campaign-archive2.com/?u=e8e84502ef33a494e8d51c62e&id=18814d515a&e=11eef64cb2
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 25, 2014, 10:22:51 AM
3 people killed in an attack on a Jewish museum in Belgium.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/24/brussels-jewish-museum-attack-three-dead

and Israeli Foreign minister and settler Lieberman says any activity in support of Palestinian rights is anti-Semitic.



http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.592589

"Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, meanwhile, has said the shooting was the result of incitement by pro-Palestinian forces and the atmosphere generated by European actions against West Bank settlements.
"It's the result on the ground of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic incitement, among other things in calls to boycott Israel and Israeli products, in anti-Israel activities in international forums and in an automatic, one-sided anti-Israel position," Lieberman said.
"So-called 'pro-Palestinian' activity, which as in those dark days calls for boycotting 'Jewish goods' and acts aggressively against the only democracy in the Middle East, is purely anti-Semitic activity and not part of legitimate political debate over the conflict over territory, the likes of which exist in many places in the world. The latest anti-Semitic incidents are a warning light to all those who, consciously or not, cooperate with this incitement when they rush, each time anew, to denounce Israel and to compare building a home for a Jewish family in the land of its ancestors to vicious, murderous terror activity," Lieberman said."


I think it has the potential to get really dangerous. 


Dear Palestinians 
We have to torture you because of our history in Europe
signed
Israel

The Zionists will not tolerate Palestinian rights and they can't convince the world of the justness of their cause any longer

RIP the latest dead.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 25, 2014, 11:55:51 AM
(http://www.maannews.net/images/PhotoViewer/281766.jpg)


While en route to Manger Square to deliver an open-air mass, His Holiness Pope Francis exited his vehicle and stopped by the Israeli Separation Wall as it passes through northern Bethlehem.

While there, he knelt down and prayed at the wall in the direction of Jerusalem, which is cut off from Bethlehem by the wall and the Israeli checkpoints
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 25, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Boeti2QIUAAy9oT.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoeZDYcCIAAi8S1.jpg)

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Denn Forever on May 25, 2014, 04:30:11 PM
Pope Francis caught in Tagging sting operation.

Quote from: give her dixie on May 25, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Boeti2QIUAAy9oT.jpg)

(https://pbs.ttingwimg.com/media/BoeZDYcCIAAi8S1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 25, 2014, 06:39:19 PM
the pope is obviously anti-Semitic
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 26, 2014, 12:39:50 PM
Carlos Latuff hits the nail on the head   

(http://desertpeace.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/pope-prays-beside-graffiti-comparing-bethlehem-to-warsaw-ghetto-altagreer.gif?w=477&h=1022)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 26, 2014, 01:15:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2014, 06:39:19 PM
the pope is obviously anti-Semitic

So now you suddenly place great value on what the pope does ?
A couple of days this is what you had to say.

Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

One minute you disgustingly link the cover up of paedophila by the Catholic hierarchy to those who call out anti-semites for what they are.

Then you , almost immediately,  turn around and use the head of the very same hierarchy as some sort of shield for your antisemitism.

Your hypocrisy is mindblowing. Let this be a lesson to anyone reading this. This is how anti-semites operate. They will do and say anything to hide their hateful bigotry.

Unfortunately it is this hiding of true intentions and fanning of sectarian hatred that leads to terrorist attacks like we saw in Belgium this weekend and in other recent attacks in France.

France is a good case in point. Remember the 'Quenelle' ? Remember how people would make the gesture in front of Synagogues and the like and then turn around and say "Oh no, its not anti semitic..its anti-establishment". You could almost see them with lying grins on their faces as they goad people about not being able to "prove" that it's an anti-semitic gesture  ::)

That lying, disingenious face is the face of Seafoid except his cover is the palestinian cause rather than the French anti-establishment.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 26, 2014, 01:38:53 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 26, 2014, 01:15:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2014, 06:39:19 PM
the pope is obviously anti-Semitic

So now you suddenly place great value on what the pope does ?
A couple of days this is what you had to say.

Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
I note another powerful institution that was sheltering dreadful abusers was defended in the same way as Israel is by people like you .
Certain priests accused people investigating child abuse in the catholic church of a conspiracy against the church. Power works the same everywhere.

One minute you disgustingly link the cover up of paedophila by the Catholic hierarchy to those who call out anti-semites for what they are.

Then you , almost immediately,  turn around and use the head of the very same hierarchy as some sort of shield for your antisemitism.

Your hypocrisy is mindblowing. Let this be a lesson to anyone reading this. This is how anti-semites operate. They will do and say anything to hide their hateful bigotry.

Unfortunately it is this hiding of true intentions and fanning of sectarian hatred that leads to terrorist attacks like we saw in Belgium this weekend and in other recent attacks in France.

France is a good case in point. Remember the 'Quenelle' ? Remember how people would make the gesture in front of Synagogues and the like and then turn around and say "Oh no, its not anti semitic..its anti-establishment". You could almost see them with lying grins on their faces as they goad people about not being able to "prove" that it's an anti-semitic gesture  ::)

That lying, disingenious face is the face of Seafoid except his cover is the palestinian cause rather than the French anti-establishment.
Tell us again why the Palestinians don't deserve rights.
Why is justice the same as historic Christian Jew hatred?
And what is your fascination with me ?

You should go out and get some exercise. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 26, 2014, 09:33:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 26, 2014, 01:38:53 PM
Tell us again why the Palestinians don't deserve rights.
Why is justice the same as historic Christian Jew hatred?

And what is your fascination with me ?

My position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is clear, consistent and  fair. Here is a summary again.

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 14, 2014, 01:33:19 PM

Israel have committed war crimes and have treated the Palestinians abhorrently. The settlements are illegal. The IDF behave like thugs toward Palestinians. Ultra-Orthodox extremists exert an undue influence in Israeli society. I have no problem with sanctions against Israel if that moderates their position. Palestinians have as much of a right to live in Israel as jews. Discrimination against Palestinians is rife amongst Israelies. 

In fact, I will go a step further and make a statement which will surprise you. I wish the state of Israel did not exist. Yup. I actually said that. There is a reason , however, that the state of Israel must exist and if Seafoid ever has the guts to reply and clarify his "Europes Jewish problem" statement then you will see why.


Like most moderates I've argued both sides of this argument with people. It depends which swivel eyed loony I happen to be dealing with at the time. They are usually either closet anti-semites or closet  islamophobes . The goal is always to prevent them from going unchallenged.To speak up and make them defend their position in their own words.

..and it is always their own words that hang them eventually.
 
On this board, unfortunately, it seems its a small cabal of anti-semites that do most of the shouting.For the last 13 years that I've been on the board I've seen you attack anyone that even attempts to give anything resembling a balanced viewpoint.The problem with people of a moderate persuasion is that we are usually the "silent majority" and it is that silence that allows bollixes like you to monopolize the argument. I just decided to fight back and fight fire with fire.

Unfortunately its hard to keep up with such an obsessive anti-Semite nutjob ( with over 10000 posts and whatnot)... maybe you are the one who needs to get out and get some exercise  ::) However, I'll do my best to give you a good kicking whenever the mood takes me. Doing the right thing can be so enjoyable....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 26, 2014, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 26, 2014, 09:33:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 26, 2014, 01:38:53 PM
Tell us again why the Palestinians don't deserve rights.
Why is justice the same as historic Christian Jew hatred?

And what is your fascination with me ?

My position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is clear, consistent and  fair. Here is a summary again.

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 14, 2014, 01:33:19 PM

Israel have committed war crimes and have treated the Palestinians abhorrently. The settlements are illegal. The IDF behave like thugs toward Palestinians. Ultra-Orthodox extremists exert an undue influence in Israeli society. I have no problem with sanctions against Israel if that moderates their position. Palestinians have as much of a right to live in Israel as jews. Discrimination against Palestinians is rife amongst Israelies. 

In fact, I will go a step further and make a statement which will surprise you. I wish the state of Israel did not exist. Yup. I actually said that. There is a reason , however, that the state of Israel must exist and if Seafoid ever has the guts to reply and clarify his "Europes Jewish problem" statement then you will see why.


Like most moderates I've argued both sides of this argument with people. It depends which swivel eyed loony I happen to be dealing with at the time. They are usually either closet anti-semites or closet  islamophobes . The goal is always to prevent them from going unchallenged.To speak up and make them defend their position in their own words.

..and it is always their own words that hang them eventually.
 
On this board, unfortunately, it seems its a small cabal of anti-semites that do most of the shouting.For the last 13 years that I've been on the board I've seen you attack anyone that even attempts to give anything resembling a balanced viewpoint.The problem with people of a moderate persuasion is that we are usually the "silent majority" and it is that silence that allows bollixes like you to monopolize the argument. I just decided to fight back and fight fire with fire.

Unfortunately its hard to keep up with such an obsessive anti-Semite nutjob ( with over 10000 posts and whatnot)... maybe you are the one who needs to get out and get some exercise  ::) However, I'll do my best to give you a good kicking whenever the mood takes me. Doing the right thing can be so enjoyable....


There is no balanced viewpoint when it comes to systematic injustice.
Israel wants all the land. The 2 State Solution is dead because Israel killed it.
Settlements are illegal you say. What difference does it make? There isn't going to be a Palestinian state.
Zionism is run by thugs. GHD has been documenting it for ages.

Good luck defending apartheid. Let's see how that plays out over the next 20 years. Let's see if the Holocaust can be used to defend apartheid. Do you think it will fly? Do you think there are enough losers out there who will buy the hasbara like you did?
Is apartheid an appropriate way to remember Auschwitz? Judaism can do way better than that.

"Fight fire with fire". You never make a single point. The only skill you have is abusing other posters.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 27, 2014, 06:57:15 AM
This is a Palestinian Christian web site that shows photos from Monday as illegal Israeli occupation forces attacked Palestinian Christians as they waited to see the Pope

http://www.pal-christian.org/?articles=topic&topic=445&fb_action_ids=10152484636919314&fb_action_types=og.likes

(http://www.pal-christian.org/uploads/2552014-113202PM-1.jpg)

(http://www.pal-christian.org/uploads/2552014-112524PM-1.jpg)

(http://www.pal-christian.org/uploads/2552014-113324PM-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 27, 2014, 07:29:52 AM
http://972mag.com/netanyahu-explains-how-he-stood-up-to-the-u-s-kept-building-settlements/91344/

Asked "about peace talks with the Palestinians," Netanyahu reportedly replied, "about the – what?" to which the audience responded by breaking out into laughter.

Last year was a record year in settlement construction in the West Bank. According to figures released by the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS), there were construction starts on 2,534 housing units last year, not including East Jerusalem – an increase of 123 percent from 2012, and more than any other year since the CBS began compiling data.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2014, 12:01:30 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 26, 2014, 09:53:52 PM
Zionism is run by thugs. GHD has been documenting it for ages.

So, I have you on record citing GHD as a reputable source including any sites he might use to "document" his so called findings ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2014, 12:22:36 AM
ok then, since GHD is a reputable source, here are some other truths that his people have unearthed

QuoteIt is now 67 years after the holocaust known as World War II. Perhaps it is time to look at it truthfully. America is in big trouble. The unpayable national debt is only a small part of it. Fact is, the White world is in big trouble. Not only America, but Europe—the homeland of the White race—is facing mortal danger. It's life or death for the White race—the race that for all its faults created Western civilization. The so-called victors of World War II won that costly struggle for the survival of Stalinist Russia and killed the very movement in Europe that was specifically dedicated to—and was accomplishing—the destruction of Communist Russia—the National Socialist movement created and led by Adolf Hitler. Worse, the Allies—Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin—then proceeded to perpetrate crimes upon the survivors unparalleled in Europe since Genghis Khan. Probably 3 million innocent Europeans perished from torture, murder, exposure and starvation after the hostilities ended. These atrocities were directed by the Allied supreme commander, Dwight Eisenhower, a protégé of financier Bernard Baruch, known at the time as "king of the Jews." It was Baruch who influenced Roosevelt to promote Eisenhower, a desk bureaucrat who had never seen combat, over the heads of 1,109 officers superior to him in experience, competence and seniority to take supreme command of the hostilities. Ike's superior was in fact not FDR but the "king of the Jews." For more, read this powerful booklet.


http://www.barnesreview.org/a-straight-look-at-the-second-world-war-the-final-truth-about-world-war-ii-p-630.html?cPath=80_44 (http://www.barnesreview.org/a-straight-look-at-the-second-world-war-the-final-truth-about-world-war-ii-p-630.html?cPath=80_44)

I am having trouble understanding why you associate yourself with this viewpoint Seafoid, and yet,  still claim you are not an anti-Semite ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2014, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2014, 12:22:36 AM
ok then, since GHD is a reputable source, here are some other truths that his people have unearthed

QuoteIt is now 67 years after the holocaust known as World War II. Perhaps it is time to look at it truthfully. America is in big trouble. The unpayable national debt is only a small part of it. Fact is, the White world is in big trouble. Not only America, but Europe—the homeland of the White race—is facing mortal danger. It's life or death for the White race—the race that for all its faults created Western civilization. The so-called victors of World War II won that costly struggle for the survival of Stalinist Russia and killed the very movement in Europe that was specifically dedicated to—and was accomplishing—the destruction of Communist Russia—the National Socialist movement created and led by Adolf Hitler. Worse, the Allies—Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin—then proceeded to perpetrate crimes upon the survivors unparalleled in Europe since Genghis Khan. Probably 3 million innocent Europeans perished from torture, murder, exposure and starvation after the hostilities ended. These atrocities were directed by the Allied supreme commander, Dwight Eisenhower, a protégé of financier Bernard Baruch, known at the time as "king of the Jews." It was Baruch who influenced Roosevelt to promote Eisenhower, a desk bureaucrat who had never seen combat, over the heads of 1,109 officers superior to him in experience, competence and seniority to take supreme command of the hostilities. Ike's superior was in fact not FDR but the "king of the Jews." For more, read this powerful booklet.


http://www.barnesreview.org/a-straight-look-at-the-second-world-war-the-final-truth-about-world-war-ii-p-630.html?cPath=80_44 (http://www.barnesreview.org/a-straight-look-at-the-second-world-war-the-final-truth-about-world-war-ii-p-630.html?cPath=80_44)

I am having trouble understanding why you associate yourself with this viewpoint Seafoid, and yet,  still claim you are not an anti-Semite ?
I don't buy your attempts to dismiss all valid criticism of Zionism because everyone who says anything against an unsustainable system is anti Semitic. That article is a pile of shite. It doesn't help the Palestinian cause.

I just wonder why justice is not available to Palestinians. At the end of the day powerless Jews were  persecuted in the past and powerless Palestinians are persecuted now. Neither are right.

GHD is very strong on what the Zionists are doing to Gaza. It's a repudiation of Jewish morality and a tragedy for the religion.
I just can't see what good it does for Judaism although perhaps you can enlighten me.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 01, 2014, 04:03:06 PM
Why all Israelis are cowards

What do you call a soldier who, from a range of 80 meters, shoots at two youngsters – not yet 18 – who are passing by? What do you call the soldier who took aim and fired? And what do you call the public from which that soldier came, a soldier who shoots people as though death were a knock-down target in a shooting gallery at a country fair? Who shoots people from such a long distance, nameless beneath his helmet, shooting at people with names who fall to the ground? They won't be going to school anymore. Their mothers will never talk to them again. Their fathers will say nothing to them anymore.

What do you call a soldier who shoots two teenagers who are passing by, dozens of meters from him, schoolbags in tow? Is he supposed to shoot, even if their heads are covered with the colors of Palestine? Even if they support the army's expulsion from the territories? What do you call that soldier?

You call him a coward.

And the Israeli public – the same public from which people stand up to defend "David the Nahalawi," the Israeli soldier who in April threatened to kill a Palestinian youth in Hebron and aimed his rifle into the youth's face; the same public that watches a soldier named Effi promising Issa Amro in Hebron last month, "The first chance I get, I will shoot you," this after a settler invaded Amro's home and he asked for her to be removed – what is the right word for the Israeli public? The public who will not watch the video shot by Bilal Tamimi from Nabi Saleh, which documents Israel Defense Forces soldiers implementing the "mapping" procedure by waking up his children at night in order to photograph them, and to compare those images with film the army took during demonstrations? What do you call that public?

What do you call a public that wants to hear from the defense minister that maybe it's not true, that what they saw on the video shot in Beitunia on May 15 – when the two teenagers died during Nakba Day protests – never happened? That those who died did not really die. Or maybe they did die, but not in connection with us, that maybe it's a show.

What do you call a public that is unwilling to understand that what is shown in the film – shot by a security camera that offers no security – is murder? Assassination, not from the air, not with a bomb from the sky, but using a new method of collective indiscrimination. Shooting "toward." Murder, for which there is no charge or trial, because they are others, not us. What do you call a public that watches an execution – the death penalty – and does not lower its gaze? That does not demand an immediate investigation. That does not cry out?

Consider the concept of the différend: a situation in which a person has no language in which to speak his complaint, because the court does not exist, does not speak his language. "A case of différend between two parties takes place when the 'regulation' of the conflict that opposes them is done in the idiom of one of the parties, while the wrong suffered by the other is not signified in that idiom," Jean-François Lyotard wrote in "The Différend: Phrases in Dispute" (translation: Georges Van Den Abbeele).

And now we have the film from Beitunia, which by its very existence establishes a court in which the Israeli society will be judged, as will its army, and as will each and every one of us. For the film shows, in a manner not susceptible to denial or deconstruction, that the other side too has the ability to speak, that the other side has testimony, and that its language is understandable to everyone. For how is it possible not to understand what one sees? By what language can it be denied?

The public can no longer be indifferent to murderousness, nor any longer make use of the army and debase it to make murderousness the norm. Today, everyone – particularly once it was known that the IDF investigated but did not say anything, or reached no conclusion – must ask what he himself did at that instant when we saw the two teenagers, Nadim Siam Nuwara, 17, and Muhammad Mahmoud Salameh, 16, fall to the ground. Dead or dying. Has the différend for each of us disappeared? Have we finally, all of us, grasped that something has happened? That Israelis will never be at home in the Land of Israel if the murder does not stop. If we do not stop it now. That what people like us are called is cowards.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.596365
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 01, 2014, 06:36:50 PM
Just wondering did anyone in Gaza ever write a similar article about Palestinian bombers blowing up women and children on a bus. Would that make all Palestinians cowards by the logic of the article? I'm sure you'd agree the people who put the bomb on the bus are despicable cowards just like I agree those Israeli soldiers are too. Ive a funny feeling though that seafood and give her dicks are not capable of seeing it from both sides.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 01, 2014, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 01, 2014, 06:36:50 PM
Just wondering did anyone in Gaza ever write a similar article about Palestinian bombers blowing up women and children on a bus. Would that make all Palestinians cowards by the logic of the article? I'm sure you'd agree the people who put the bomb on the bus are despicable cowards just like I agree those Israeli soldiers are too. Ive a funny feeling though that seafood and give her dicks are not capable of seeing it from both sides.
Israelis deserve security but they aren't going to get it running apartheid.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 01, 2014, 10:15:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 01, 2014, 06:36:50 PM
Just wondering did anyone in Gaza ever write a similar article about Palestinian bombers blowing up women and children on a bus. Would that make all Palestinians cowards by the logic of the article? I'm sure you'd agree the people who put the bomb on the bus are despicable cowards just like I agree those Israeli soldiers are too. Ive a funny feeling though that seafood and give her dicks are not capable of seeing it from both sides.

Itchy, the very least you could do is stop been a smart ass by referring to me as "Give her dicks".
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 01, 2014, 10:26:41 PM
You deserve it. You're a hypocrite. So is Seafood.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 01, 2014, 10:27:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 01, 2014, 10:26:41 PM
You deserve it. You're a hypocrite. So is Seafood.

Alright Bitchy.

Sorry couldn't resist.  ;)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on June 01, 2014, 11:37:44 PM
Congo,Rwanda,Syria,Burundai,Sudan,CAR,Iraq,Somalia,North Korea.

Just a select sample of countries and innocent people being violated and killed in much greater numbers than Palestine.Who cares ,back to Palestine.....yawn
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 01, 2014, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 01, 2014, 11:37:44 PM
Congo,Rwanda,Syria,Burundai,Sudan,CAR,Iraq,Somalia,North Korea.

Just a select sample of countries and innocent people being violated and killed in much greater numbers than Palestine.Who cares ,back to Palestine.....yawn

Well, I care about Palestine, and so do many others. If you care about Congo, Rwanda, Syria, Burundai, Sudan, CAR, Iraq, Somalia, North Korea or wherever, then start a thread and tell us all about it and how much you care and what you are doing to help their plight.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 01, 2014, 11:57:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 01, 2014, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 01, 2014, 11:37:44 PM
Congo,Rwanda,Syria,Burundai,Sudan,CAR,Iraq,Somalia,North Korea.

Just a select sample of countries and innocent people being violated and killed in much greater numbers than Palestine.Who cares ,back to Palestine.....yawn

Well, I care about Palestine, and so do many others. If you care about Congo, Rwanda, Syria, Burundai, Sudan, CAR, Iraq, Somalia, North Korea or wherever, then start a thread and tell us all about it and how much you care and what you are doing to help their plight.

No you don't. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are driven more by hatred of jews and than any real concern for Palestine. If you truly cared about Palestine you would attempt some semblance of balance. You never have and you never will.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 12:15:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2014, 10:27:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 01, 2014, 10:26:41 PM
You deserve it. You're a hypocrite. So is Seafood.

Alright Bitchy.

Sorry couldn't resist.  ;)

Ah that's all right Muppet. I'm sure its not gone unnoticed that the two boys have refused to address the central point of my last post. Not for the first time too. Israeli murder = bad, Palestinian murder = justified.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 02, 2014, 12:25:59 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 01, 2014, 11:57:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 01, 2014, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 01, 2014, 11:37:44 PM
Congo,Rwanda,Syria,Burundai,Sudan,CAR,Iraq,Somalia,North Korea.

Just a select sample of countries and innocent people being violated and killed in much greater numbers than Palestine.Who cares ,back to Palestine.....yawn

Well, I care about Palestine, and so do many others. If you care about Congo, Rwanda, Syria, Burundai, Sudan, CAR, Iraq, Somalia, North Korea or wherever, then start a thread and tell us all about it and how much you care and what you are doing to help their plight.

No you don't. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are driven more by hatred of jews and than any real concern for Palestine. If you truly cared about Palestine you would attempt some semblance of balance. You never have and you never will.

As always Mike, you are 100% correct. I couldn't give 2 flying fucks about Palestine.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLqNo_04pwA
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 12:00:13 PM
None of it is of any concern to me.Its just interesting,I certainly wont offer any monetary help, I keep a little spare cash for worthy causes in my own country.

I am just so  fascinated by the popularity of the Palestine cause in this country.Never ceases to amaze me why this cause is so popular.Must be a good social scene around it,Get to meet similar people,Exciting protests for the cause, enlightening shoppers about the plight of Palestine,People  who can make a difference,People who care!!Lets all get on a flotilla and sail to Palestine,Ahh the romanticism of it all,Charming.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 12:00:13 PM
None of it is of any concern to me.Its just interesting,I certainly wont offer any monetary help, I keep a little spare cash for worthy causes in my own country.

I am just so  fascinated by the popularity of the Palestine cause in this country.Never ceases to amaze me why this cause is so popular.Must be a good social scene around it,Get to meet similar people,Exciting protests for the cause, enlightening shoppers about the plight of Palestine,People  who can make a difference,People who care!!Lets all get on a flotilla and sail to Palestine,Ahh the romanticism of it all,Charming.
It's very like Ulster  history. Crowd of religious blows in colonise the place, claiming a special relationship with God. They send the locals to the hills, take the plains and claim moral superiority. Run an apartheid system and expect it to last forever.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on June 02, 2014, 12:57:05 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 12:00:13 PM
None of it is of any concern to me.Its just interesting,I certainly wont offer any monetary help, I keep a little spare cash for worthy causes in my own country.

I am just so  fascinated by the popularity of the Palestine cause in this country.Never ceases to amaze me why this cause is so popular.Must be a good social scene around it,Get to meet similar people,Exciting protests for the cause, enlightening shoppers about the plight of Palestine,People  who can make a difference,People who care!!Lets all get on a flotilla and sail to Palestine,Ahh the romanticism of it all,Charming.

My God can you not see the injustice of it all and why people would care,children being injured and killed on a daily basis and denied the basics for good health care and nutrition.An oppressed people being strangled by a race of people who should know better having been at the brunt of one of the biggest crimes against mankind.Sixty years of continual slaughter and you wonder why people care. >:( >:(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 02, 2014, 01:06:33 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 12:00:13 PM
None of it is of any concern to me.Its just interesting,I certainly wont offer any monetary help, I keep a little spare cash for worthy causes in my own country.

I am just so  fascinated by the popularity of the Palestine cause in this country.Never ceases to amaze me why this cause is so popular.Must be a good social scene around it,Get to meet similar people,Exciting protests for the cause, enlightening shoppers about the plight of Palestine,People  who can make a difference,People who care!!Lets all get on a flotilla and sail to Palestine,Ahh the romanticism of it all,Charming.

How about you tell us something that is important to you, something that involves life or death.

And then we can watch when someone like you shits on it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 03:58:15 PM
[

How about you tell us something that is important to you, something that involves life or death.

And then we can watch when someone like you shits on it.
[/quote]

Plenty of life and death matters in our own country to worry about.

Can you answer why Palestine is put on a pedestal above far worse cases of life and death in the world by people like you?
Their are many other countries that are suffering from Corrupt regimes,war,starvation and  killing at a rate that greatly exceeds palestine.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 02, 2014, 04:25:50 PM
Palestinian unity government of Fatah and Hamas sworn in


After seven years of a bitter and at times lethal rivalry between the two main Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, a historic Palestinian unity government has been sworn in, ending years of division.

The signing ceremony, which seems likely to complicate relations with the Palestinian Authority's international aid donors in Europe and the US and increase tensions with Israel, was broadcast live in both Gaza and the West Bank.

The US indicated over the weekend that it would wait to see the policies of the new unity government before deciding whether to recognise it, because of Hamas's involvement.

Before the ceremony the US secretary of state, John Kerry, telephoned the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to express "concern about Hamas's role in any such government," the state department spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, told reporters.

Israel, which suspended peace negotiations in April when a surprise reconciliation deal was signed, opening the way to the appointment of the new government, has threatened punitive sanctions against any government backed by Hamas, saying it would serve as a front for the group and "strengthen terrorism".

Abbas, who heads the mainstream Fatah movement, has said the 17-member cabinet would comprise unaffiliated ministers and would strive to pursue peace, despite Hamas's refusal to accept co-existence with Israel.

"Today, and after announcing the government of national unity, we declare the end of division that caused catastrophic harm to our cause," Abbas said.

The announcement of the new government, ending a long and debilitating political and territorial division in Palestinian affairs, opens the way for long-delayed Palestinian elections, slated for 2015.

The ceremony took place just hours after Israeli jets struck the site of what they said were two rocket launches from Gaza.

The new government will reunite Gaza and the West Bank under a single political authority for the first time since 2007, when Hamas – which won Palestinian legislative elections in 2006 – asserted control over the Gaza Strip, forcing out Fatah.

Since then the West Bank has been governed by Abbas and Fatah and Gaza by Hamas, which is regarded as a terrorist group in many capitals.

The swearing-in ceremony in the West Bank city of Ramallah came as the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, appealed to the international community not to rush into recognising the new government, largely made up of technocrats.

Again on Monday, Netanyahu hit out at European governments for condemning a shooting attack on the Jewish museum in Brussels but responding with "ambiguity" to reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas.

"It is puzzling to me that governments in Europe that strongly criticise this act of murder speak with ambiguity and even friendliness about a unity government with Hamas, a terror organisation that carries out crimes like these," he said.

Israel's security cabinet met overnight to discuss the new government, reconfirming an April decision to halt negotiations with any government backed by Hamas, newspapers reported on Monday.

In a sign of the potential difficulties ahead, Israel refused three Gaza-based ministers permission to travel to the West Bank for the swearing-in.

The ceremony took place after several last-minute wrangles that threatened to delay the signing, including over who would be foreign minister and an attempt by Abbas to abolish the post of prisoners' minister, which was opposed by Hamas.

That dispute was resolved after it was agreed that the prisoners would remain within the government portfolio and would be held by prime minister Rami Hamdallah.

According to a draft obtained by AFP, the new government will have 17 ministers, five of them from Gaza, and will be headed by Hamdallah, the current prime minister in the West Bank, who will also hold the interior portfolio.

Abbas has already pledged that the new administration will abide by the principles laid down by the Middle East peace quartet in that it will recognise Israel, reject violence and abide by all existing agreements.

Briefing reporters a few hours before the signing ceremony, Israel's intelligence minister, Yuval Steinlitz, a close ally of Netanyahu, insisted that the deal reasserting the Palestinian Authority's governance over Gaza placed an obligation on Abbas to demilitarise the coastal strip as part of the Oslo peace agreement.

Israel claims that factions in Gaza have up to 12,000 missiles and rockets under their control. "Enough of these tricks," Netanyahu said. "If this new Palestinian government has regained sovereignty over Gaza the first thing that Abbas should do is announce he is starting demilitarisation of Gaza."


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/02/palestinian-unity-government-sworn-in-fatah-hamas
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 04:34:16 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 03:58:15 PM
[

How about you tell us something that is important to you, something that involves life or death.

And then we can watch when someone like you shits on it.

Plenty of life and death matters in our own country to worry about.

Can you answer why Palestine is put on a pedestal above far worse cases of life and death in the world by people like you?
Their are many other countries that are suffering from Corrupt regimes,war,starvation and  killing at a rate that greatly exceeds palestine.
[/quote]It's sad to see supporters of Israel engaging in arguments like that. Take the idea to its logical conclusion. Why does anyone bother remembering the Holocaust. Shur wasn't Genghis Khan far worse.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 05:36:24 PM
You are an idiot Seafoid.I asked a simple question and you label me a supporter of Israel which I am not!!


Why dont you bring a Palestine flag along to a football match and show your solidarity with the rest of the Muppets!!

Its clear your simply anti Israel or else you would be raising awareness of other world issues that are on an equal if not far worse footing than Israel/Palestine.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 02, 2014, 05:44:04 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 03:58:15 PM
Quote

How about you tell us something that is important to you, something that involves life or death.

And then we can watch when someone like you shits on it.
Plenty of life and death matters in our own country to worry about.

Can you answer why Palestine is put on a pedestal above far worse cases of life and death in the world by people like you?
Their are many other countries that are suffering from Corrupt regimes,war,starvation and  killing at a rate that greatly exceeds palestine.

This is similar to the Sinn Fein hierarchy of victims argument.

That argument doesn't work for the same reason yours doesn't work. When you get into the ranking of atrocities, as a cover to defend a particular atrocity, most people will automatically dismiss your views on any moral issue.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 07:10:19 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 05:36:24 PM
You are an idiot Seafoid.I asked a simple question and you label me a supporter of Israel which I am not!!


Why dont you bring a Palestine flag along to a football match and show your solidarity with the rest of the Muppets!!

Its clear your simply anti Israel or else you would be raising awareness of other world issues that are on an equal if not far worse footing than Israel/Palestine.
I regularly post on climate change and economics and Roscommon football, most of which are on a far worse footing than Israel/Palestine.
I'm sick of Israel fans using the number of dead as an exercise to shut down criticism of Israel.
Israel has signed many international treaties which hold it to respect human rights and it doesn't give a flying f**k about the human rights of non Jews in the occupied territories. 

I just don't see how Israel is sustainable.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 07:25:21 PM
Seafood, can you name one "Israel fan" on this board?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 07:38:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 07:25:21 PM
Seafood, can you name one "Israel fan" on this board?
Anyone who brings up "it's worse in the DRC" is playing hasbara.
What's wrong with expecting Israel to play by international law ?
None of the unionists ever got away with "South Armagh is way better than El Salvador".
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 07:42:02 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 05:36:24 PM
You are an idiot Seafoid.I asked a simple question and you label me a supporter of Israel which I am not!!


Why dont you bring a Palestine flag along to a football match and show your solidarity with the rest of the Muppets!!

Its clear your simply anti Israel or else you would be raising awareness of other world issues that are on an equal if not far worse footing than Israel/Palestine.
5 posts and straight onto Israel. It's not fair to the Rossies .
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 07:45:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 07:38:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 07:25:21 PM
Seafood, can you name one "Israel fan" on this board?
Anyone who brings up "it's worse in the DRC" is playing hasbara.
What's wrong with expecting Israel to play by international law ?
None of the unionists ever got away with "South Armagh is way better than El Salvador".

You didn't name anyone of course.

You might find it annoying that someone would dare question your position on Israel or even more annoying they compare the Israel/Palestine problem to some other hell hole but that does not make someone an "Israel Fan". Perhaps if you stopped labeling opponents this way some of them might listen to you. You don't like when you are called an anti Semite.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 09:52:45 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 07:45:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 07:38:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 07:25:21 PM
Seafood, can you name one "Israel fan" on this board?
Anyone who brings up "it's worse in the DRC" is playing hasbara.
What's wrong with expecting Israel to play by international law ?
None of the unionists ever got away with "South Armagh is way better than El Salvador".

You didn't name anyone of course.

You might find it annoying that someone would dare question your position on Israel or even more annoying they compare the Israel/Palestine problem to some other hell hole but that does not make someone an "Israel Fan". Perhaps if you stopped labeling opponents this way some of them might listen to you. You don't like when you are called an anti Semite.
You and Sheehy come out with hasbara when it suits you.You're not interested in fair play for the Palestinians.
I think Israel is important because it's trying to redefine the rules of war. The next time things deteriorate seriously in the UK and they feel the need  to take over some land in Cavan the rules of war are going to be important.   

Calling people who deplore what Israel to the Palestinians anti-Semites is a joke.
Sheehy has nothing to say on the subject other than insulting people anyway.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 10:37:50 PM
Seafood. You're a slippery bluffer. You know full well ive no time Israel , ive said it many times but I don't support what your buddies do targeting innocent civilians themselves. I consider that a balanced approach but you are one sided and incapable of sticking to a point or answering a question. You and the other plonker do more harm than good.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 12:47:06 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 09:52:45 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 07:45:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 07:38:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 02, 2014, 07:25:21 PM
Seafood, can you name one "Israel fan" on this board?
Anyone who brings up "it's worse in the DRC" is playing hasbara.
What's wrong with expecting Israel to play by international law ?
None of the unionists ever got away with "South Armagh is way better than El Salvador".

You didn't name anyone of course.

You might find it annoying that someone would dare question your position on Israel or even more annoying they compare the Israel/Palestine problem to some other hell hole but that does not make someone an "Israel Fan". Perhaps if you stopped labeling opponents this way some of them might listen to you. You don't like when you are called an anti Semite.
You and Sheehy come out with hasbara when it suits you.You're not interested in fair play for the Palestinians.
I think Israel is important because it's trying to redefine the rules of war. The next time things deteriorate seriously in the UK and they feel the need  to take over some land in Cavan the rules of war are going to be important.   

Calling people who deplore what Israel to the Palestinians anti-Semites is a joke.
Sheehy has nothing to say on the subject other than insulting people anyway.

No, it is YOU that I am calling an anti-Semite not people who deplore what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. As far as I know, everybody that has called you out on Israel on this and other threads has gone on record criticizing Israel. You on the other hand refuse to even acknowledge the obvious infiltration of the Palestinian cause by anti-semites (why would you, I suppose,  since you are one ::)) and, more specifically, you have refused to condemn GHD's proven (by his own posts) links to known anti-semites and Nazi websites.

As for insults, yeah... well, I make no apologies for not playing nice with bigots. You've been at this shite on gaaboard for at least 13 years. For the most part you've gotten a pass because most people just couldn't be bothered engaging in this incessant cut'n'paste campaign of yours. However we have all seen what is going on in Europe with the rise of the the extreme right (not that the extreme left are much better...their anti-Semitism is just as bad) so it is very important that ,at this particular point in European history, that demagogues are challenged wherever they raise their ugly heads.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on June 03, 2014, 08:48:24 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 07:10:19 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 05:36:24 PM
You are an idiot Seafoid.I asked a simple question and you label me a supporter of Israel which I am not!!


Why dont you bring a Palestine flag along to a football match and show your solidarity with the rest of the Muppets!!

Its clear your simply anti Israel or else you would be raising awareness of other world issues that are on an equal if not far worse footing than Israel/Palestine.
I regularly post on climate change and economics and Roscommon football, most of which are on a far worse footing than Israel/Palestine.
I'm sick of Israel fans using the number of dead as an exercise to shut down criticism of Israel.
Israel has signed many international treaties which hold it to respect human rights and it doesn't give a flying f**k about the human rights of non Jews in the occupied territories. 

I just don't see how Israel is sustainable.


Israel Fans!! Your gas
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 10:11:09 AM
The problem with Israel is that it needs a lot of torture to keep the show on the road and it's supposed to be a Jewish state that showcases the best of Judaism.

So there's an inner contradiction there that means it's not looking good long term.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 12:08:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2014, 07:10:19 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 02, 2014, 05:36:24 PM
You are an idiot Seafoid.I asked a simple question and you label me a supporter of Israel which I am not!!


Why dont you bring a Palestine flag along to a football match and show your solidarity with the rest of the Muppets!!

Its clear your simply anti Israel or else you would be raising awareness of other world issues that are on an equal if not far worse footing than Israel/Palestine.
I regularly post on climate change and economics and Roscommon football, most of which are on a far worse footing than Israel/Palestine.
I'm sick of Israel fans using the number of dead as an exercise to shut down criticism of Israel. Israel has signed many international treaties which hold it to respect human rights and it doesn't give a flying f**k about the human rights of non Jews in the occupied territories. 

I just don't see how Israel is sustainable.

That is rich. For 13 years you have shouted down anyone who doesnt share your fanatical view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and labelled them "zionists" so you will forgive us if we ignore your hypocritical whining.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 04:15:40 PM
I think this is why Israel has such PR  trouble nowadays

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/rabbis-round-table/.premium-1.596840#

"The Jewish people are charged with being the ethical leaders of the world, Jerusalem is meant to be the city of peace and we are meant to be the shining moral example; "a light of the nations" (Isaiah 42:7)."

Moral relativism is a long way short of this.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 07:24:32 PM
Seafoid, you do realize that everytime that you quote Haaretz you undermine your position that Israelis are a heinous mob in the grip fanatical oppressive ultra-orthodoxy.

Just for the benefit of those that do not know , Haaretz is Israel's oldest daily paper and has a significant circulation.It is a very fair and balanced source and is constantly critical of Israeli policy (It also publishes articles critical of Hamas , Fatah etc. For some reason Seafoid neglects to post those articles ::))

As an example, a few days ago GHD cut'n'pasted an article from Haaretz called "Why all Israelis are cowards" which detailed what was ,basically ,a war crime by a soldier who shot two youngsters in Beitunia.

That is a (justifiably) very strong headline. I would say that that headline demonstrates , unequivocally, the health of the debate within Israel and the very real , good faith, efforts of Israelis to come to terms with the Israeli/palestinian conflict.

I bolded the "good faith" bit because it is the nub of  my issue with Seafoid and Give her Dixie. It is their singular lack of "good faith" in all their posts that irks me . Not only do they display a complete lack of balance but, with their selective quoting, they add insult to Injury by abusing the good faith of those that try to be balanced.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 08:33:32 PM
Netanyahu has asked the world to boycott the new Palestinian unity "government" but so far it has been recognised by the EU, China and the US.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 08:33:32 PM
Netanyahu has asked the world to boycott the new Palestinian unity "government" but so far it has been recognised by the EU, China and the US.

Hang on, didn't you say that the US does whatever the jewish lobby tells it to do ?
This is a serious blow to the narrative you have been force feeding us all these years Seafoid.



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 08:33:32 PM
Netanyahu has asked the world to boycott the new Palestinian unity "government" but so far it has been recognised by the EU, China and the US.

Hang on, didn't you say that the US does whatever the jewish lobby tells it to do ?
This is a serious blow to the narrative you have been force feeding us all these years Seafoid.

Isn't it just, for everyone who is totally clueless

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
Such a shameful list.
Even post Sabra and Shatila the Yanks covered Israel's ass at the UN
And remember when "Calling on Israel to Accept Applicability of 4th Geneva Convention" was just too anti semitic.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 10:29:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 08:33:32 PM
Netanyahu has asked the world to boycott the new Palestinian unity "government" but so far it has been recognised by the EU, China and the US.

Hang on, didn't you say that the US does whatever the jewish lobby tells it to do ?
This is a serious blow to the narrative you have been force feeding us all these years Seafoid.

Isn't it just, for everyone who is totally clueless

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
Such a shameful list.
Even post Sabra and Shatila the Yanks covered Israel's ass at the UN
And remember when "Calling on Israel to Accept Applicability of 4th Geneva Convention" was just too anti semitic.

Lets stick to the point. The US has recognized the Palestinian unity "government".

How is that consistent with your repeated claims that the US does what the jewish lobby tells it to do ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 10:43:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 10:29:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 08:33:32 PM
Netanyahu has asked the world to boycott the new Palestinian unity "government" but so far it has been recognised by the EU, China and the US.

Hang on, didn't you say that the US does whatever the jewish lobby tells it to do ?
This is a serious blow to the narrative you have been force feeding us all these years Seafoid.

Isn't it just, for everyone who is totally clueless

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
Such a shameful list.
Even post Sabra and Shatila the Yanks covered Israel's ass at the UN
And remember when "Calling on Israel to Accept Applicability of 4th Geneva Convention" was just too anti semitic.

Lets stick to the point. The US has recognized the Palestinian unity "government".

How is that consistent with your repeated claims that the US does what the jewish lobby tells it to do ?

You're such a laugh
Your position is that there is no Jewish lobby. 

Here's a video if you are genuinely interested.
Jen Psaki, US government spokeswoman tries to square the circle on why the US is wagged by the Israeli tail when it comes to the Palestinians

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1857622883?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAGWqYgE~,KxHPzbPALrFGi6o0QhQY9IxyliWBJ3Vq&bctid=2606666240001

Start at 50 minutes
Stick to the point

and over 30 UN vetoes not good enough for you either ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 04, 2014, 12:16:25 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 10:43:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 10:29:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 08:33:32 PM
Netanyahu has asked the world to boycott the new Palestinian unity "government" but so far it has been recognised by the EU, China and the US.

Hang on, didn't you say that the US does whatever the jewish lobby tells it to do ?
This is a serious blow to the narrative you have been force feeding us all these years Seafoid.

Isn't it just, for everyone who is totally clueless

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
Such a shameful list.
Even post Sabra and Shatila the Yanks covered Israel's ass at the UN
And remember when "Calling on Israel to Accept Applicability of 4th Geneva Convention" was just too anti semitic.

Lets stick to the point. The US has recognized the Palestinian unity "government".

How is that consistent with your repeated claims that the US does what the jewish lobby tells it to do ?

You're such a laugh
Your position is that there is no Jewish lobby. 

Here's a video if you are genuinely interested.
Jen Psaki, US government spokeswoman tries to square the circle on why the US is wagged by the Israeli tail when it comes to the Palestinians

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1857622883?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAGWqYgE~,KxHPzbPALrFGi6o0QhQY9IxyliWBJ3Vq&bctid=2606666240001

Start at 50 minutes
Stick to the point

and over 30 UN vetoes not good enough for you either ?

Really  ? Where did I say there was no jewish lobby ? In fact I very clearly mentioned "jewish lobby" in my post...this is typical of your blatant lies.

Now answer the question, The US has recognized the Palestinian unity "government".

How is that consistent with your repeated claims that the US does what the jewish lobby tells it to do ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 04, 2014, 09:54:56 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 04, 2014, 12:16:25 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 10:43:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 10:29:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 03, 2014, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2014, 08:33:32 PM
Netanyahu has asked the world to boycott the new Palestinian unity "government" but so far it has been recognised by the EU, China and the US.

Hang on, didn't you say that the US does whatever the jewish lobby tells it to do ?
This is a serious blow to the narrative you have been force feeding us all these years Seafoid.

Isn't it just, for everyone who is totally clueless

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
Such a shameful list.
Even post Sabra and Shatila the Yanks covered Israel's ass at the UN
And remember when "Calling on Israel to Accept Applicability of 4th Geneva Convention" was just too anti semitic.

Lets stick to the point. The US has recognized the Palestinian unity "government".

How is that consistent with your repeated claims that the US does what the jewish lobby tells it to do ?

You're such a laugh
Your position is that there is no Jewish lobby. 

Here's a video if you are genuinely interested.
Jen Psaki, US government spokeswoman tries to square the circle on why the US is wagged by the Israeli tail when it comes to the Palestinians

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1857622883?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAGWqYgE~,KxHPzbPALrFGi6o0QhQY9IxyliWBJ3Vq&bctid=2606666240001

Start at 50 minutes
Stick to the point

and over 30 UN vetoes not good enough for you either ?

Really  ? Where did I say there was no jewish lobby ? In fact I very clearly mentioned "jewish lobby" in my post...this is typical of your blatant lies.

Now answer the question, The US has recognized the Palestinian unity "government".

How is that consistent with your repeated claims that the US does what the jewish lobby tells it to do ?

What is your point? Are you saying the behaviour of the US is independent of the Jewish lobby ? And has been since 1967 ?
Can you clarify your view?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 04, 2014, 11:46:03 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 04, 2014, 09:54:56 AM
What is your point? Are you saying the behaviour of the US is independent of the Jewish lobby ? And has been since 1967 ?
Can you clarify your view?

Lets be very specific here. There are MANY groups that lobby the US government. Catholic, jewish, muslim groups all lobby in a multitude of diverse forms on religious and secular issues. Secular groups also lobby on domestic and foreign policy. On the middle east, in particular, there are pro-palestinian lobbying groups such as AAPER , Arab governemnts routinely lobby on Foreign policy and then there are groups that try to influence US foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction, chief among these is AIPAC.

So, I assume that it is primarily this group i.e AIPAC that you are referring to, correct ?

If so the answer to your question as to whether the US government has been independent of AIPAC the answer is clearly no. Of course the  US government has been influenced by the likes of AIPAC but it has also been influenced by many other groups and you proved this by informing us that the US had recognized the palestinian unity government. AIPAC were against this and lobbied the US governement against recognizing it.
http://usc.news21.com/madeline-story/aipac-current-talking-points-1 (http://usc.news21.com/madeline-story/aipac-current-talking-points-1)
Their chief argument against it is that it includes Hamas which is a US designated terrorist group. So, not only did the US go against AIPIC but they recognized a government which included included a group on their terrorist list !

...and yet you insist on telling us that the US dog is wagged by the Israeli tail  ::)

(Aside: Also, moving foward lets refer to the specific lobby groups by there actual names. I don't have a problem, per se, with someone in good faith using the term "jewish lobby"when talking about AIPAC however, strictly speaking, this is incorrect and  I get very uncomfortable when someone like you uses this blanket term because of your anti-semitic leanings)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 05, 2014, 09:13:40 PM
'Proper Zionist response': Israel issues tenders for 1,500 new settlement homes

Israel's housing ministry has issued 1,500 tenders for new settlement housing units, explaining the move as a response to the Palestinian unity government. The Palestinians say they will appeal the decision at the UN Security Council.

Tenders for 900 housing units in the West Bank and 560 units in east Jerusalem were issued late Wednesday. Housing Minister Uri Ariel described the move as a response to the new Palestinian unity cabinet, which was sworn in Monday.

http://rt.com/news/163836-israel-releases-tenders-settlements/


Israel advancing plans for 1,800 new settlement units - on top of tenders for 1,500 units

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu decided Thursday to unfreeze planning processes for 1,800 housing units in the settlements that have been frozen the last three months, in response to the establishment of the Palestinian unity government earlier this week.

The announcement comes just hours after the Housing Ministry published tenders for 1,500 housing units in the West Bank and East Jerusalem on Wednesday, a move termed by Minister Uri Ariel as a response to the new Palestinian unity cabinet.

"When Israel is spat upon, it has to do something about it," Ariel told Israel Radio, adding that construction tenders had been issued as a response to what he termed a Palestinian "terrorist government."

http://www.haaretz.com/.premium-1.597191



Letters
G4S must end its complicity in Israel's abuse of child prisoners



As G4S management and shareholders prepare to participate in the G4S AGM on Thursday, we call on G4S management and shareholders to end the corporation's participation in Israel's brutal occupation. G4S operates and maintains security systems at the Ofer prison, located in the occupied West Bank, and for the Kishon and Moskobiyyeh detention/interrogation facilities, at which human rights organisations have documented systematic torture and ill-treatment of Palestinian prisoners, including child prisoners, held in solitary confinement.

G4S helps the Israeli prison service to run prisons inside Israel that hold prisoners from occupied Palestinian territory, despite the fourth Geneva convention prohibition of the transfer of prisoners from occupied territory into the territory of the occupier. Through its involvement in Israel's prison system, G4S is complicit in violations of international law and participates in Israel's use of mass incarceration as a means by which to dissuade Palestinians from protesting against Israel's systematic human rights abuses.

G4S also provides equipment and services to the Israeli military checkpoints in the West Bank that form part of the route of Israel's illegal wall and to the terminals isolating the occupied and besieged territory of Gaza. G4S's role in Israel's brutal occupation and abhorrent prison system is unacceptable and must end. Join our call – add your name to this letter on the War on Want website.

Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Ahmed Kathrada South African politician and former political prisoner, Alexei Sayle Comedian, Alice Walker Author, Angela Davis Author and activist, Breyten Breytenbach Poet and painter, John Berger Author, Ken Loach Director, Michael Mansfield QC Barrister, Mike Leigh Director, Miriam Margolyes Actor, Noam Chomsky Philosopher and author, Paul Laverty Screenwriter, Professor Richard Falk Professor of international law, Roger Waters Musician, Saleh Bakri Actor



• More than 200 Palestinian children are being held in Israeli prisons. At least two of the jails where Palestinian children are detained – Ofer in the West Bank and Al Jalame in Israel – are supplied with security systems by G4S.

Several organisations, including Unicef in 2013, have documented the ill-treatment of the children inside these prisons. Unicef reported that the abuse of Palestinian youngsters trapped in the Israeli prison system is "widespread, systematic and institutionalised". At its AGM last year, a number of concerned shareholders questioned the G4S board about the company's complicity in the detention and abuse of Palestinian children, eliciting the promise of a review of the current situation.

A year on, G4S appears to be as entrenched as ever in the Israeli prison system. This is an unacceptable position for the company, with its headquarters in the UK, to be in. We call on G4S to show it has a conscience and terminate its contracts with facilities where children suffer routine physical and verbal abuse, contrary to the norms of civilised society.

Jeremy Corbyn MP, Andy Slaughter MP, Grahame Morris MP, Richard Burden MP, Katy Clark MP, Chris Williamson MP, Alex Cunningham MP, John Denham MP, Caroline Lucas MP, Paul Blomfield MP, Crispin Blunt MP, Joan Ruddock MP, Mark Durkan MP, Roger Godsiff MP, Hugh Lanning Chair, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Geoffrey Bindman QC, Bruce Kent CND, Caryl Churchill Playwright, Victoria Brittain Journalist and author, Rev Canon Garth Hewitt Amos Trust, Professor Steven Rose, John Austin, Betty Hunter

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/g4s-complicity-israel-abuse-child-prisoners
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 04, 2014, 11:46:03 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 04, 2014, 09:54:56 AM
What is your point? Are you saying the behaviour of the US is independent of the Jewish lobby ? And has been since 1967 ?
Can you clarify your view?

Lets be very specific here. There are MANY groups that lobby the US government. Catholic, jewish, muslim groups all lobby in a multitude of diverse forms on religious and secular issues. Secular groups also lobby on domestic and foreign policy. On the middle east, in particular, there are pro-palestinian lobbying groups such as AAPER , Arab governemnts routinely lobby on Foreign policy and then there are groups that try to influence US foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction, chief among these is AIPAC.

So, I assume that it is primarily this group i.e AIPAC that you are referring to, correct ?

If so the answer to your question as to whether the US government has been independent of AIPAC the answer is clearly no. Of course the  US government has been influenced by the likes of AIPAC but it has also been influenced by many other groups and you proved this by informing us that the US had recognized the palestinian unity government. AIPAC were against this and lobbied the US governement against recognizing it.
http://usc.news21.com/madeline-story/aipac-current-talking-points-1 (http://usc.news21.com/madeline-story/aipac-current-talking-points-1)
Their chief argument against it is that it includes Hamas which is a US designated terrorist group. So, not only did the US go against AIPIC but they recognized a government which included included a group on their terrorist list !

...and yet you insist on telling us that the US dog is wagged by the Israeli tail  ::)

(Aside: Also, moving foward lets refer to the specific lobby groups by there actual names. I don't have a problem, per se, with someone in good faith using the term "jewish lobby"when talking about AIPAC however, strictly speaking, this is incorrect and  I get very uncomfortable when someone like you uses this blanket term because of your anti-semitic leanings)
AIPAC is a Jewish lobby. Its purpose is to keep American politicians loyal to Israel.

there are lobbies but none of them have the majority of politicians doing their thing. Only the NRA gets anywhere near AIPAC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw_X3k2YyGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=673_f2EtdT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt3x4_slR7M

And that's down to money

Why is AIPAC so important? Because Israel is a tiny country half way around the world and normally a superpower wouldn't give it a second thought. How much political time does Laos get in DC ? 

And denying how Zionism works is denying reality.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/chris-christie-occupied-territories-apology-105169.html#ixzz33rRSX06E
LAS VEGAS – New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie apologized to Sheldon Adelson in a meeting Saturday for stepping on a fault line in Middle East politics during a speech he gave earlier in the day, according to a source familiar with the conversation.
Invoking a 2012 trip he and his family took to Israel, Christie recalled in the speech: "I took a helicopter ride from the occupied territories across and just felt personally how extraordinary that was to understand, the military risk that Israel faces every day."
While the story was intended to forge common cause with Adelson and the several hundred donors to the Republican Jewish Coalition to which Christie was speaking, his use of the term "occupied territories" set off murmurs in the crowd. The term refers to lands in which Palestinians live where Israel maintains a military presence, including the West Bank.
But the term is rejected by some conservative Zionists like Adelson who see it as validating Palestinian challenges over Israel's presence. Other supporters of Israel oppose the use of the term"

Adelson is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

This stuff is really dangerous. Israel can't force the world to accept apartheid in the West Bank.
Denying how the system works does not help Israel.


So, not only did the US go against AIPIC but they recognized a government which included included a group on their terrorist list !


AIPAC lobbied to have it on that list.

Romney lost despite all the money Adelson donated. When push comes to shove more Americans put jobs before that Shangri La in the Middle East.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: thebigfella on June 06, 2014, 02:09:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 04, 2014, 11:46:03 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 04, 2014, 09:54:56 AM
What is your point? Are you saying the behaviour of the US is independent of the Jewish lobby ? And has been since 1967 ?
Can you clarify your view?

Lets be very specific here. There are MANY groups that lobby the US government. Catholic, jewish, muslim groups all lobby in a multitude of diverse forms on religious and secular issues. Secular groups also lobby on domestic and foreign policy. On the middle east, in particular, there are pro-palestinian lobbying groups such as AAPER , Arab governemnts routinely lobby on Foreign policy and then there are groups that try to influence US foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction, chief among these is AIPAC.

So, I assume that it is primarily this group i.e AIPAC that you are referring to, correct ?

If so the answer to your question as to whether the US government has been independent of AIPAC the answer is clearly no. Of course the  US government has been influenced by the likes of AIPAC but it has also been influenced by many other groups and you proved this by informing us that the US had recognized the palestinian unity government. AIPAC were against this and lobbied the US governement against recognizing it.
http://usc.news21.com/madeline-story/aipac-current-talking-points-1 (http://usc.news21.com/madeline-story/aipac-current-talking-points-1)
Their chief argument against it is that it includes Hamas which is a US designated terrorist group. So, not only did the US go against AIPIC but they recognized a government which included included a group on their terrorist list !

...and yet you insist on telling us that the US dog is wagged by the Israeli tail  ::)

(Aside: Also, moving foward lets refer to the specific lobby groups by there actual names. I don't have a problem, per se, with someone in good faith using the term "jewish lobby"when talking about AIPAC however, strictly speaking, this is incorrect and  I get very uncomfortable when someone like you uses this blanket term because of your anti-semitic leanings)
AIPAC is a Jewish lobby. Its purpose is to keep American politicians loyal to Israel.

there are lobbies but none of them have the majority of politicians doing their thing. Only the NRA gets anywhere near AIPAC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw_X3k2YyGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=673_f2EtdT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt3x4_slR7M

And that's down to money

Why is AIPAC so important? Because Israel is a tiny country half way around the world and normally a superpower wouldn't give it a second thought. How much political time does Laos get in DC ? 

And denying how Zionism works is denying reality.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/chris-christie-occupied-territories-apology-105169.html#ixzz33rRSX06E
LAS VEGAS – New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie apologized to Sheldon Adelson in a meeting Saturday for stepping on a fault line in Middle East politics during a speech he gave earlier in the day, according to a source familiar with the conversation.
Invoking a 2012 trip he and his family took to Israel, Christie recalled in the speech: "I took a helicopter ride from the occupied territories across and just felt personally how extraordinary that was to understand, the military risk that Israel faces every day."
While the story was intended to forge common cause with Adelson and the several hundred donors to the Republican Jewish Coalition to which Christie was speaking, his use of the term "occupied territories" set off murmurs in the crowd. The term refers to lands in which Palestinians live where Israel maintains a military presence, including the West Bank.
But the term is rejected by some conservative Zionists like Adelson who see it as validating Palestinian challenges over Israel's presence. Other supporters of Israel oppose the use of the term"

Adelson is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

This stuff is really dangerous. Israel can't force the world to accept apartheid in the West Bank.
Denying how the system works does not help Israel.


So, not only did the US go against AIPIC but they recognized a government which included included a group on their terrorist list !


AIPAC lobbied to have it on that list.

Romney lost despite all the money Adelson donated. When push comes to shove more Americans put jobs before that Shangri La in the Middle East.

Not bad, only took you 2 days of research. Wiki????
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 07, 2014, 10:51:09 AM
BDS is unstoppable at this stage......


The Gates Foundation Asset Trust, the entity that manages the investments for the $40.2 billion Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, has liquidated its entire stake in G4S Plc (GFS), the world's biggest security-services provider.

"Like other large foundations, the foundation trust evaluates its holdings regularly, both for performance and fit," John Pinette, a spokesman for the Gates family, said in a statement. "As a result of this, the foundation trust no longer holds an investment in G4S."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-06/gates-foundation-sells-stake-in-u-k-security-company-g4s.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 07, 2014, 10:55:41 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 07, 2014, 10:51:09 AM
BDS is unstoppable at this stage......


The Gates Foundation Asset Trust, the entity that manages the investments for the $40.2 billion Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, has liquidated its entire stake in G4S Plc (GFS), the world's biggest security-services provider.

"Like other large foundations, the foundation trust evaluates its holdings regularly, both for performance and fit," John Pinette, a spokesman for the Gates family, said in a statement. "As a result of this, the foundation trust no longer holds an investment in G4S."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-06/gates-foundation-sells-stake-in-u-k-security-company-g4s.html
They will scream antisemitism but apartheid is toxic for business. They got 20 years to prove  they wanted peace and they chose to give it 2 fingers.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 07, 2014, 11:12:44 AM
Competing with the other Colonial outpost Canada in who can support Israel the most,
Australia have now decided that Jerusalem is not occupied territory......

In policy shift, Australia declares East Jerusalem is not occupied

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.597130
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 07, 2014, 05:44:55 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
AIPAC is a Jewish lobby. Its purpose is to keep American politicians loyal to Israel.
there are lobbies but none of them have the majority of politicians doing their thing. Only the NRA gets anywhere near AIPAC

And that's down to money

Why is AIPAC so important? Because Israel is a tiny country half way around the world and normally a superpower wouldn't give it a second thought. How much political time does Laos get in DC ? 


Seafoid, you give yourself away everytime. One of THE classic signs of anti-semitism is claiming that "jews" have a disproportionate influence. You simply can't help yourself.

Refuses to make any distinction between an Israeli Lobby and jews ......check
Says the "jews" have too much influence...........................................check
makes allusions to money...............................................................check

and then, right on cue this...

Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Adelson is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

what is that supposed to mean ?

Also, did it ever occur to to you that Americans simply have a more positive to attitude to Israel than Europeans (which wouldn't be hard) and their politicians reflect this. Given the US involvement in WWII and the genocide that they witnessed (and fought against) it should be no surprise that they would believe in the right of Israel to exist and that it has a right to security. Don't assume for a second though, that the Palestinian cause is not championed in the US. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is endlessly debated and Israel and AIPAC all come in for robust, sustained and energetic criticism. I know this because I have lived here for the best part of 20 years. You, on the other hand, know f**k all about the US , the people or their politicians. You are just a cut'n'paste demagogue. You have a complete inability to  originate ,or process, any political viewpoint that rises above cartoon level simplicity.

Also, I want to set something straight here.... even if one assumes that the Jewish diaspora plays a role US politics...so what ? The Irish have had a huge impact on US politics. Tamany Hall ran New York for decades. The Italians also have had a huge influence. Do you ever hear about the undue influence of the Irish, Italian or Catholics ...no. That is why your anti-Semitism is so obvious Seafoid. As I have said before, it is the particularity of your obsession that makes you stand out.

Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Romney lost despite all the money Adelson donated. When push comes to shove more Americans put jobs before that Shangri La in the Middle East

Another example of the Americans disproving your point about being influenced...and, yet again,  proving you talk a load of shite
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 07, 2014, 06:29:18 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 07, 2014, 05:44:55 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
AIPAC is a Jewish lobby. Its purpose is to keep American politicians loyal to Israel.
there are lobbies but none of them have the majority of politicians doing their thing. Only the NRA gets anywhere near AIPAC

And that's down to money

Why is AIPAC so important? Because Israel is a tiny country half way around the world and normally a superpower wouldn't give it a second thought. How much political time does Laos get in DC ? 


Seafoid, you give yourself away everytime. One of THE classic signs of anti-semitism is claiming that "jews" have a disproportionate influence. You simply can't help yourself.

Refuses to make any distinction between an Israeli Lobby and jews ......check
Says the "jews" have too much influence...........................................check
makes allusions to money...............................................................check

and then, right on cue this...

Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Adelson is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

what is that supposed to mean ?

Also, did it ever occur to to you that Americans simply have a more positive to attitude to Israel than Europeans (which wouldn't be hard) and their politicians reflect this. Given the US involvement in WWII and the genocide that they witnessed (and fought against) it should be no surprise that they would believe in the right of Israel to exist and that it has a right to security. Don't assume for a second though, that the Palestinian cause is not championed in the US. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is endlessly debated and Israel and AIPAC all come in for robust, sustained and energetic criticism. I know this because I have lived here for the best part of 20 years. You, on the other hand, know f**k all about the US , the people or their politicians. You are just a cut'n'paste demagogue. You have a complete inability to  originate ,or process, any political viewpoint that rises above cartoon level simplicity.

Also, I want to set something straight here.... even if one assumes that the Jewish diaspora plays a role US politics...so what ? The Irish have had a huge impact on US politics. Tamany Hall ran New York for decades. The Italians also have had a huge influence. Do you ever hear about the undue influence of the Irish, Italian or Catholics ...no. That is why your anti-Semitism is so obvious Seafoid. As I have said before, it is the particularity of your obsession that makes you stand out.

Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Romney lost despite all the money Adelson donated. When push comes to shove more Americans put jobs before that Shangri La in the Middle East

Another example of the Americans disproving your point about being influenced...and, yet again,  proving you talk a load of shite


Yes, of course Americans have a vested interest in an apartheid state in the Middle East. Of course it's more important than domestic issues in the US. I mean why would 98 out of 100 senators not be pro Israel?

Why deny Jewish influence and Zionist money ? Is there any other way to keep Israel going ?

Here's Hillary Clinton. She'd like to be Prez in 2016
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.597401

"Former U.S. Secretary of State claims in a new memoir that the American administration made a tactical error by demanding Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to freeze construction in the settlements in 2009.
"In retrospect, our early, hard line on settlements didn't work," Clinton writes in Hard Choices, to be released next week, AP reported.
Clinton, widely estimated in Washington to vie to the presidency in 2016, writes in her memoir that the demand for a construction freeze in the West Bank only hardened the stance of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who eventually rejected negotiations because the freeze did not include East Jerusalem..."

Why would she say that? Does she need money ?
What's wrong with it? US policy in the Middle east is twisted to suit the interest of a marginal group.
And the world is not going to buy apartheid.

And all criticism is anti-Semitic, of course it is.
And your explanation for why all senior American politicians have to genuflect before AIPAC? Because that's the why.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 03:41:16 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 07, 2014, 06:29:18 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 07, 2014, 05:44:55 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
AIPAC is a Jewish lobby. Its purpose is to keep American politicians loyal to Israel.
there are lobbies but none of them have the majority of politicians doing their thing. Only the NRA gets anywhere near AIPAC

And that's down to money

Why is AIPAC so important? Because Israel is a tiny country half way around the world and normally a superpower wouldn't give it a second thought. How much political time does Laos get in DC ? 


Seafoid, you give yourself away everytime. One of THE classic signs of anti-semitism is claiming that "jews" have a disproportionate influence. You simply can't help yourself.

Refuses to make any distinction between an Israeli Lobby and jews ......check
Says the "jews" have too much influence...........................................check
makes allusions to money...............................................................check

and then, right on cue this...

Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Adelson is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

what is that supposed to mean ?

Also, did it ever occur to to you that Americans simply have a more positive to attitude to Israel than Europeans (which wouldn't be hard) and their politicians reflect this. Given the US involvement in WWII and the genocide that they witnessed (and fought against) it should be no surprise that they would believe in the right of Israel to exist and that it has a right to security. Don't assume for a second though, that the Palestinian cause is not championed in the US. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is endlessly debated and Israel and AIPAC all come in for robust, sustained and energetic criticism. I know this because I have lived here for the best part of 20 years. You, on the other hand, know f**k all about the US , the people or their politicians. You are just a cut'n'paste demagogue. You have a complete inability to  originate ,or process, any political viewpoint that rises above cartoon level simplicity.

Also, I want to set something straight here.... even if one assumes that the Jewish diaspora plays a role US politics...so what ? The Irish have had a huge impact on US politics. Tamany Hall ran New York for decades. The Italians also have had a huge influence. Do you ever hear about the undue influence of the Irish, Italian or Catholics ...no. That is why your anti-Semitism is so obvious Seafoid. As I have said before, it is the particularity of your obsession that makes you stand out.

Quote from: seafoid on June 06, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
Romney lost despite all the money Adelson donated. When push comes to shove more Americans put jobs before that Shangri La in the Middle East

Another example of the Americans disproving your point about being influenced...and, yet again,  proving you talk a load of shite


Yes, of course Americans have a vested interest in an apartheid state in the Middle East. Of course it's more important than domestic issues in the US. I mean why would 98 out of 100 senators not be pro Israel?

Why deny Jewish influence and Zionist money ? Is there any other way to keep Israel going ?

Here's Hillary Clinton. She'd like to be Prez in 2016
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.597401

"Former U.S. Secretary of State claims in a new memoir that the American administration made a tactical error by demanding Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to freeze construction in the settlements in 2009.
"In retrospect, our early, hard line on settlements didn't work," Clinton writes in Hard Choices, to be released next week, AP reported.
Clinton, widely estimated in Washington to vie to the presidency in 2016, writes in her memoir that the demand for a construction freeze in the West Bank only hardened the stance of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who eventually rejected negotiations because the freeze did not include East Jerusalem..."

Why would she say that? Does she need money ?
What's wrong with it? US policy in the Middle east is twisted to suit the interest of a marginal group.
And the world is not going to buy apartheid.

And all criticism is anti-Semitic, of course it is.
And your explanation for why all senior American politicians have to genuflect before AIPAC? Because that's the why.

seafoid, what is your definition of "Apartheid" ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 10:45:41 AM
My definition of apartheid?

Start with the fact it is one state and there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

http://972mag.com/netanyahu-explains-how-he-stood-up-to-the-u-s-kept-building-settlements/91344/

"Netanyahu explains how he stood up to the U.S., kept building settlements
'Peace talks? What peace talks,' the Israeli prime minister jokes with supporters from his party.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu boasted of his settlement building achievements in a recent meeting with young Likud supporters. Responding to a question from the audience, Netanyahu said: "I was threatened in Washington: 'not one brick' [of settlement construction] ... after five years, we built a little more than one brick..."
Asked "about peace talks with the Palestinians," Netanyahu reportedly replied, "about the – what?" to which the audience responded by breaking out into laughter"



The status quo :

Roads for Jews and separate roads for non Jews
Water allocation for Jews and separate allocations for non Jews
Civil law for Jews, military law for non Jews
Social welfare for West Bank resident Jews, none for West Bank resident non Jews
Government spending per head on Jews and on Jews
Land allocation - Jews have property rights, Palestinians don't . 40% of the West Bank "belongs" to the Jewish settlements 
housing- Jews get free housing, Palestinians get nothing
Education spending - 30 to 1 
Employment - Jews get access to the Israeli jobs market, Palestinians don't

It sucks. It's apartheid.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 11:13:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 10:45:41 AM
My definition of apartheid?

Start with the fact it is one state and there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

http://972mag.com/netanyahu-explains-how-he-stood-up-to-the-u-s-kept-building-settlements/91344/

"Netanyahu explains how he stood up to the U.S., kept building settlements
'Peace talks? What peace talks,' the Israeli prime minister jokes with supporters from his party.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu boasted of his settlement building achievements in a recent meeting with young Likud supporters. Responding to a question from the audience, Netanyahu said: "I was threatened in Washington: 'not one brick' [of settlement construction] ... after five years, we built a little more than one brick..."
Asked "about peace talks with the Palestinians," Netanyahu reportedly replied, "about the – what?" to which the audience responded by breaking out into laughter"



The status quo :

Roads for Jews and separate roads for non Jews
Water allocation for Jews and separate allocations for non Jews
Civil law for Jews, military law for non Jews
Social welfare for West Bank resident Jews, none for West Bank resident non Jews
Government spending per head on Jews and on Jews
Land allocation - Jews have property rights, Palestinians don't . 40% of the West Bank "belongs" to the Jewish settlements 
housing- Jews get free housing, Palestinians get nothing
Education spending - 30 to 1 
Employment - Jews get access to the Israeli jobs market, Palestinians don't

It sucks. It's apartheid.

No, you didn't answer the question I asked you. You are not going to get any argument from me about discrimination against Palestinians. There are legitimate arguments for the case of Apartheid in Israel but there are also valid arguments that equating what is happening in Israel to South Africa is wrong.

What I want to know, specificially, is your strict definition of the word "Apartheid" .I am especially interested in the constitutional aspects of your answer. I just need it for future reference, that's all, so that I can check you for consistency.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 11:40:06 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 11:13:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 10:45:41 AM
My definition of apartheid?

Start with the fact it is one state and there is not going to be a Palestinian state.

http://972mag.com/netanyahu-explains-how-he-stood-up-to-the-u-s-kept-building-settlements/91344/

"Netanyahu explains how he stood up to the U.S., kept building settlements
'Peace talks? What peace talks,' the Israeli prime minister jokes with supporters from his party.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu boasted of his settlement building achievements in a recent meeting with young Likud supporters. Responding to a question from the audience, Netanyahu said: "I was threatened in Washington: 'not one brick' [of settlement construction] ... after five years, we built a little more than one brick..."
Asked "about peace talks with the Palestinians," Netanyahu reportedly replied, "about the – what?" to which the audience responded by breaking out into laughter"



The status quo :

Roads for Jews and separate roads for non Jews
Water allocation for Jews and separate allocations for non Jews
Civil law for Jews, military law for non Jews
Social welfare for West Bank resident Jews, none for West Bank resident non Jews
Government spending per head on Jews and on Jews
Land allocation - Jews have property rights, Palestinians don't . 40% of the West Bank "belongs" to the Jewish settlements 
housing- Jews get free housing, Palestinians get nothing
Education spending - 30 to 1 
Employment - Jews get access to the Israeli jobs market, Palestinians don't

It sucks. It's apartheid.

No, you didn't answer the question I asked you. You are not going to get any argument from me about discrimination against Palestinians. There are legitimate arguments for the case of Apartheid in Israel but there are also valid arguments that equating what is happening in Israel to South Africa is wrong.

What I want to know, specificially, is your strict definition of the word "Apartheid" .I am especially interested in the constitutional aspects of your answer. I just need it for future reference, that's all, so that I can check you for consistency.
Israel doesn't have a constitution.

"I just need it for future reference, that's all, so that I can check you for consistency".

You are so out of your depth.

You are just a cut'n'paste demagogue. You have a complete inability to  originate ,or process, any political viewpoint that rises above cartoon level simplicity.

You say that because you can't credibly argue your position. You watch TV and what I say doesn't  match what they tell you on TV and you want to express that what you see on TV is right but the words don't come out. So you bring out the old cut n paste argument. You can't be serious if you cut n paste. You can't have a political viewpoint if you bring in ideas from other places that they don't use on CNN or RTE or whatever. 

Another example of the Americans disproving your point about being influenced...and, yet again,  proving you talk a load of shite

This is another interesting one. I'm talking about a system that goes back over 50 years. American policy in the Near East has been driven by Zionists and oil people. Rich Jews buy political influence in return for the right to define the US position on Israel.

Take UN resolution 242

http://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d451
451. Telegram From the Department of State to the Embassy in Israel11. Source: National Archives and Records Administration, RG 59, Central Files 1967–69, POL 27 ARAB–ISR. Confidential. Drafted by Lambrakis, cleared by Atherton, and approved by Battle. Repeated to Amman, Beirut, Jerusalem, Jidda, London, Moscow, Paris, and USUN.
Washington, September 29, 1967, 1952Z.
46190. 1. Ambassador Harman and Minister Evron called on Assistant Secretary Battle September 28 for tour d'horizon. In reply to query, Battle repeated assurances given Israelis in New York that Secretary's meeting with Jordanian Foreign Minister22. <b>Rusk met with Jordanian Foreign Minister Muhammad Adib Al-'Ameri on September 26 in New York. A memorandum of the conversation is ibid., POL JORDAN–US. took routine course and produced no surprises. Could not explain basis for reportedly optimistic statement made by Jordanian to press following meeting. </b> (2) Battle referred to indirect report of unknown reliability through third Embassy sources in Cairo to effect high Foreign Ministry official now regretted that US–USSR draft resolution had not been adopted by Arabs in the first place. Battle offered up his own estimate that Soviets have not entirely moved away from that draft but wish to avoid taking lead at present in UNGA and are concentrating on rebuilding their position with Arabs. They may eventually move back to where they were at end of special GA but no evidence yet. Harman agreed Soviet tactic seems to be give full public backing to Arabs and not get out in front. He recalled GOI feeling that US–USSR draft open to varying interpretations.
4. Moving on to question of announced establishment Israeli settlements on West Bank and Syrian border,33. Press reports that Eshkol had announced plans for establishment of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories near Baniyas in the Golan Heights, at Etzion between Bethleham and Hebron, and at Beit Haarava on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea are summarized in telegram 43163 to Rio de Janeiro for Eugene Rostow, September 25. (Ibid., POL 27 ARAB–ISR) <b> Battle said he wished to stress two points. First is need to avoid airing differences of opinion between us in public press. On other hand, in all honesty it is extremely important GOI actions during this period not provide ammunition for those at UN who would interpret GOI position as hardening in direction of territorial acquisition rather than negotiated settlement. </b>

This has  got nothing to do with Dick and Jane's sympathy for what the Germans did in WW2. It's why there were all those US vetoes at the UN. This is raw power and how money works in US politics. 
Israel decided to settle the West Bank well before 1967 and it's too big to fail.



And all you can say it anti-Semitism and throw in the ad homs
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 08, 2014, 12:32:48 PM
Horrors of the occupation go way beyond the settlements

Gideon Levy 08/06/14

Another Israeli "Price Tag" attack has been launched: An additional 1,500 settlement housing units have been announced in declared retaliation for the creation of a Palestinian unity government.

The mask was ripped off long ago, and Israel is no longer trying to hide that settlements are no more than a punishment. But they aren't the real punishment. The real punishment is the continued tyranny. The settlements are a measure of Israeli intentions; they were built to eternalize the status quo and destroy any chances for agreements. But the real punishment is the insufferable injustices of the occupation, which are actually less discussed.

We must stop talking about the settlements. The amount of settlers reached critical mass long ago, making the situation irreversible. Another 1,500 housing units won't change much. Constructing them only proves that Israel intends to continue its colonialist endeavors, but housing units themselves are not the heart of the issue. The real problem is the totalitarian regime in the West Bank. It is the Palestinians' biggest problem, as well as that of the Israelis, as their nation has become a false democracy.

While it's true that without the settlements, the occupation would have ended, as the settlement-free occupation of southern Lebanon did. It's true that if there were far fewer settlers, as there were in the Gaza Strip, Israel perhaps could have also disengaged from the West Bank. But Gaza proved that disengagement is not sufficient to bring about justice: Gaza has become a prison, and no one even discusses the prisoners' fate anymore.

Ceasing settlement construction, as it is the largest Zionist endeavor since the creation of Israel, would be a gesture of good faith. But without total evacuation of the settlements (which is completely unrealistic) and the creation of a just government in the West Bank, the essence of the situation will remain unchanged.

Thus the international opposition need not focus on the settlements in the West Bank, rather it should deal with the way in which they are ruled. The international community should focus on the fact that there are two peoples here, one with every right and the other with none aside from the right to be occupied. Stop condemning Israel for each new apartment and caravan. Israel should be condemned and punished for creating insufferable life under occupation, for the fact that a country that claims to be among the enlightened nations continues abusing an entire people, day and night.

Talk about the helpless fishermen in Gaza fired upon by gunships; talk about the children brutally arrested in the middle of the night; talk about the countless detentions without trial, about the families torn between Gaza and the West Bank, between Jerusalem and Ramallah. Talk about the light Israeli finger on the trigger; talk about the discriminatory courts, the daily dispossession, house demolition and destruction of villages; talk about the pasturelands turned into firing zones only to dishearten residents and expel them; talk about the soldiers who shoot out of boredom and the police officers who make arrests just because they can.

Talk about the inherent apartheid in the West Bank, and the terrible chances facing any Palestinian child looking to build a life, or even just visit the beach, even if it's only a short distance from his home. Talk about the Gazans who cannot export their goods, nor go anywhere – not to study, not to go to the hospital, not to visit family members or work outside their prison, the largest in the world. Talk about the thousands of prisoners, some of them political prisoners, who face inhumane discrimination, as opposed to their Jewish counterparts. Talk about the bureaucracy of occupation, another institutionalized method of abuse. Talk about the checkpoints, and the overwhelming injustices. Talk about the horrors of occupation.

All of these things are completely unrelated to a few hundred more settlement housing units. Every decent citizen, both in Israel and around the world, should cry out against these things. These cries aren't heard enough.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 08, 2014, 12:32:48 PM
Horrors of the occupation go way beyond the settlements

Gideon Levy 08/06/14

Another Israeli "Price Tag" attack has been launched: An additional 1,500 settlement housing units have been announced in declared retaliation for the creation of a Palestinian unity government.

The mask was ripped off long ago, and Israel is no longer trying to hide that settlements are no more than a punishment. But they aren't the real punishment. The real punishment is the continued tyranny. The settlements are a measure of Israeli intentions; they were built to eternalize the status quo and destroy any chances for agreements. But the real punishment is the insufferable injustices of the occupation, which are actually less discussed.

We must stop talking about the settlements. The amount of settlers reached critical mass long ago, making the situation irreversible. Another 1,500 housing units won't change much. Constructing them only proves that Israel intends to continue its colonialist endeavors, but housing units themselves are not the heart of the issue. The real problem is the totalitarian regime in the West Bank. It is the Palestinians' biggest problem, as well as that of the Israelis, as their nation has become a false democracy.

While it's true that without the settlements, the occupation would have ended, as the settlement-free occupation of southern Lebanon did. It's true that if there were far fewer settlers, as there were in the Gaza Strip, Israel perhaps could have also disengaged from the West Bank. But Gaza proved that disengagement is not sufficient to bring about justice: Gaza has become a prison, and no one even discusses the prisoners' fate anymore.

Ceasing settlement construction, as it is the largest Zionist endeavor since the creation of Israel, would be a gesture of good faith. But without total evacuation of the settlements (which is completely unrealistic) and the creation of a just government in the West Bank, the essence of the situation will remain unchanged.

Thus the international opposition need not focus on the settlements in the West Bank, rather it should deal with the way in which they are ruled. The international community should focus on the fact that there are two peoples here, one with every right and the other with none aside from the right to be occupied. Stop condemning Israel for each new apartment and caravan. Israel should be condemned and punished for creating insufferable life under occupation, for the fact that a country that claims to be among the enlightened nations continues abusing an entire people, day and night.

Talk about the helpless fishermen in Gaza fired upon by gunships; talk about the children brutally arrested in the middle of the night; talk about the countless detentions without trial, about the families torn between Gaza and the West Bank, between Jerusalem and Ramallah. Talk about the light Israeli finger on the trigger; talk about the discriminatory courts, the daily dispossession, house demolition and destruction of villages; talk about the pasturelands turned into firing zones only to dishearten residents and expel them; talk about the soldiers who shoot out of boredom and the police officers who make arrests just because they can.

Talk about the inherent apartheid in the West Bank, and the terrible chances facing any Palestinian child looking to build a life, or even just visit the beach, even if it's only a short distance from his home. Talk about the Gazans who cannot export their goods, nor go anywhere – not to study, not to go to the hospital, not to visit family members or work outside their prison, the largest in the world. Talk about the thousands of prisoners, some of them political prisoners, who face inhumane discrimination, as opposed to their Jewish counterparts. Talk about the bureaucracy of occupation, another institutionalized method of abuse. Talk about the checkpoints, and the overwhelming injustices. Talk about the horrors of occupation.

All of these things are completely unrelated to a few hundred more settlement housing units. Every decent citizen, both in Israel and around the world, should cry out against these things. These cries aren't heard enough.
And it's a long way from the shite in Israel's declaration of "Independence"


: "[Israel] will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
...and yet again the anti-Semite won't give a direct answer to a direct question....just more ranting about "rich jews" and their nefarious plots   ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
...and yet again the anti-Semite won't give a direct answer to a direct question....just more ranting about "rich jews" and their nefarious plots   ::)
Go on, say Hitler

Apartheid is a Government run system of racial or religious  segregation enforced through legislation designed to keep one group in privilege which would not be possible if the place were run as a democracy. The oppressed in the system are denied rights and privileges open to those chosen. It's a brutal way to run a Jewish state, really.

how's that for you?
Meanwhile

http://www.adsagainstapartheid.com/

In Boston

The messages are getting through in Yankstan.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 05:00:55 PM

Barroso tells Israel to cop on

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.597487#

"If no peace negotiations take place and no progress is made, the EU and Israel will have to address contentious and divisive issues, including further acceleration of the EU's policy on disengagement from the settlements. On these matters - which touch upon core values held dear throughout the EU - the Union will be compelled to act in accordance with its beliefs and its rules.

In the long term, security and prosperity can only be sustained if the right makes the might and not the other way round. There will always be those who resist peace, but for leaders on both sides, even if it may seem politically safer to keep the status quo, it is important to put the strategic interests of their countries and their people above short-term considerations. I am firmly convinced that ultimately the path of negotiations and of a two state solution is the only one that will lead to a secure and prosperous Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 09, 2014, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
...and yet again the anti-Semite won't give a direct answer to a direct question....just more ranting about "rich jews" and their nefarious plots   ::)
Go on, say Hitler

Apartheid is a Government run system of racial or religious  segregation enforced through legislation designed to keep one group in privilege which would not be possible if the place were run as a democracy. The oppressed in the system are denied rights and privileges open to those chosen. It's a brutal way to run a Jewish state, really.

how's that for you?

Well done. Its very annoying that it takes you so much time and multiple requests to answer the simplest most direct of questions  ::) Your evasivness is quite staggering.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 09, 2014, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 09, 2014, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
...and yet again the anti-Semite won't give a direct answer to a direct question....just more ranting about "rich jews" and their nefarious plots   ::)
Go on, say Hitler

Apartheid is a Government run system of racial or religious  segregation enforced through legislation designed to keep one group in privilege which would not be possible if the place were run as a democracy. The oppressed in the system are denied rights and privileges open to those chosen. It's a brutal way to run a Jewish state, really.

how's that for you?

Well done. Its very annoying that it takes you so much time and multiple requests to answer the simplest most direct of questions  ::) Your evasivness is quite staggering.
your lack of any arguments other than antisemitism and your reliance on ad homs and pointless online geegaws say so much about what you have to add to the discussion.

I reckon young American jews will slowly  turn away from Zionism.  What do you think?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 10, 2014, 12:12:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 09, 2014, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 09, 2014, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
...and yet again the anti-Semite won't give a direct answer to a direct question....just more ranting about "rich jews" and their nefarious plots   ::)
Go on, say Hitler

Apartheid is a Government run system of racial or religious  segregation enforced through legislation designed to keep one group in privilege which would not be possible if the place were run as a democracy. The oppressed in the system are denied rights and privileges open to those chosen. It's a brutal way to run a Jewish state, really.

how's that for you?

Well done. Its very annoying that it takes you so much time and multiple requests to answer the simplest most direct of questions  ::) Your evasivness is quite staggering.
your lack of any arguments other than antisemitism and your reliance on ad homs and pointless online geegaws say so much about what you have to add to the discussion.

I reckon young American jews will slowly  turn away from Zionism.  What do you think?

Calling someone an anti-semite that is quite clearly an anti-semite and telling such a person how despicable you think they are does not qualify as an ad-hominem attack. It is simply telling the truth.

As to your question, I think that as long as anti-semitism exists then young American Jews will feel the need to support Israel even if they have fundamental disagreements with its policies. Basically,as I have said before and I will say it again. You are the problem. If people like you and GHD ceased to exist then the reason for the state of Israel would cease to exist. You are are personally , directly responsible for the state of Israel as it exists today.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 10, 2014, 12:18:47 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 10, 2014, 12:12:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 09, 2014, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 09, 2014, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 08, 2014, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 08, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
...and yet again the anti-Semite won't give a direct answer to a direct question....just more ranting about "rich jews" and their nefarious plots   ::)
Go on, say Hitler

Apartheid is a Government run system of racial or religious  segregation enforced through legislation designed to keep one group in privilege which would not be possible if the place were run as a democracy. The oppressed in the system are denied rights and privileges open to those chosen. It's a brutal way to run a Jewish state, really.

how's that for you?

Well done. Its very annoying that it takes you so much time and multiple requests to answer the simplest most direct of questions  ::) Your evasivness is quite staggering.
your lack of any arguments other than antisemitism and your reliance on ad homs and pointless online geegaws say so much about what you have to add to the discussion.

I reckon young American jews will slowly  turn away from Zionism.  What do you think?

Calling someone an anti-semite that is quite clearly an anti-semite and telling such a person how despicable you think they are does not qualify as an ad-hominem attack. It is simply telling the truth.

As to your question, I think that as long as anti-semitism exists then young American Jews will feel the need to support Israel even if they have fundamental disagreements with its policies. Basically,as I have said before and I will say it again. You are the problem. If people like you and GHD ceased to exist then the reason for the state of Israel would cease to exist. You are are personally , directly responsible for the state of Israel as it exists today.
you are nuts.

Genuine anti-Semitism is basically dead. Jews are treated the same as everyone else in the West.
American Jews are raised differently to Israeli Jews. They tend to be better educated and more concerned about moral issues as they don't grow up brainwashed.

I'll be here following GAA for the next few decades so we can watch the mess develop.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 10, 2014, 01:28:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 10, 2014, 12:18:47 PM
you are nuts.

Genuine anti-Semitism is basically dead. Jews are treated the same as everyone else in the West.
American Jews are raised differently to Israeli Jews. They tend to be better educated and more concerned about moral issues as they don't grow up brainwashed.

I'll be here following GAA for the next few decades so we can watch the mess develop.

Nuts eh ? what's that you were saying about ad-homs ?

with respect to American jews being more concerned about moral issues , perhaps you could learn something from them  ::) A sense of balance and fairness is a fundamental property of morality. Your complete lack of balance and fairness is symptomatic of your complete amorality.

Also, just referring back to the previous post, lets be clear about one thing with respect to "labelling" and ad-homs . You are the one who has set the tone of to the Israeli/Palestinian debate on this board for years by your constant labelling of anyone that disagrees with your extremist views on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as a "zionist". As you sow , so shall you reap......

Now, what exactly do you mean by "Genuine anti-Semitism is basically dead" ? That is an amazing statement to make.Its as crazy as saying genuine racism is dead. What is "genuine" anti-semitism as opposed to...... what ?....... "ungenuine" antisemitism ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 10, 2014, 08:34:01 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 10, 2014, 01:28:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 10, 2014, 12:18:47 PM
you are nuts.

Genuine anti-Semitism is basically dead. Jews are treated the same as everyone else in the West.
American Jews are raised differently to Israeli Jews. They tend to be better educated and more concerned about moral issues as they don't grow up brainwashed.

I'll be here following GAA for the next few decades so we can watch the mess develop.

Nuts eh ? what's that you were saying about ad-homs ?

with respect to American jews being more concerned about moral issues , perhaps you could learn something from them  ::) A sense of balance and fairness is a fundamental property of morality. Your complete lack of balance and fairness is symptomatic of your complete amorality.

Also, just referring back to the previous post, lets be clear about one thing with respect to "labelling" and ad-homs . You are the one who has set the tone of to the Israeli/Palestinian debate on this board for years by your constant labelling of anyone that disagrees with your extremist views on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as a "zionist". As you sow , so shall you reap......

Now, what exactly do you mean by "Genuine anti-Semitism is basically dead" ? That is an amazing statement to make.Its as crazy as saying genuine racism is dead. What is "genuine" anti-semitism as opposed to...... what ?....... "ungenuine" antisemitism ?

Blaming me for the existence of Israel is insane. The place is run for the benefit of 14 oligarchs. I'm not one of them.
Anyone who can't recognise the human rights of the Palestinians is a Zionist.
And human rights aren't extremist. The second world war was 70 years ago. Jews can live in peace with Palestinians.

Genuine anti-Semitism- discriminating against Jews solely because they are Jews - is dead. the ADL tries to prove anti-Semitism is alive but it's pointless. Jews are successful everywhere and they are not persecuted on the back of it.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 10, 2014, 10:10:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 10, 2014, 08:34:01 PM
Blaming me for the existence of Israel is insane. The place is run for the benefit of 14 oligarchs. I'm not one of them.
Anyone who can't recognise the human rights of the Palestinians is a Zionist.
And human rights aren't extremist. The second world war was 70 years ago. Jews can live in peace with Palestinians.

Genuine anti-Semitism- discriminating against Jews solely because they are Jews - is dead. the ADL tries to prove anti-Semitism is alive but it's pointless. Jews are successful everywhere and they are not persecuted on the back of it.

No, your blame for the existence of Israel is entirely logical. You are nothing but the latest, cut'n'paste savvy incarnation of a long line of anti-semites stretching back to before the time of Christ.

Now, wrt to the human rights of Palestinians ,  who is not recognizing the human rights of Palestinians ?
Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with your extremist stance on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict does not "recognize the human rights of Palestinians"

and this

"Genuine anti-Semitism- discriminating against Jews solely because they are Jews - is dead."

Would you regard shooting someone dead solely because they are Jewish as "discrimination" ? Are you saying that this is not "genuine" anti-Semitism ?

and, again, what is this other, milder , more kindly form of anti-Semitism ::) that you distinguish from "genuine" anti-Semitism ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 11, 2014, 08:55:00 PM
Meanwhile, back in Gaza in the past 15 minutes, an Israeli/US airstrike hit a motorbike in a crowded area killing 1 and seriously injuring 3 others........
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 12:24:09 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 11, 2014, 08:55:00 PM
Meanwhile, back in Gaza in the past 15 minutes, an Israeli/US airstrike hit a motorbike in a crowded area killing 1 and seriously injuring 3 others........

Are you referring to this ?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-fg-palestinian-militant-killed-in-israeli-gaza-air-strike-20140611,0,5451001.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-fg-palestinian-militant-killed-in-israeli-gaza-air-strike-20140611,0,5451001.story)

Why are you saying the US was involved in this air strike ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 12, 2014, 10:08:55 AM
This is how it works in the States
Money - politicians- extremist pro Israel stance

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118102/did-eric-cantor-lose-gop-primary-because-hes-jewish
Back in 2002, Cantor was given a place on the House Republican leadership team as a mere freshman largely because, as a former GOP congressman once explained to me, the fact that Cantor is Jewish gave him "access to donors we didn't typically have access to." Cantor not only helped the GOP fundraising machine make inroads into the big-money (and typically Democratic) Jewish precincts in Los Angeles, Miami, and New York; he also helped GOP congressmen tap their local Jewish communities for money. Nearly every House Republican I've ever spoken to about Cantor's fundraising prowess has a story about the Virginia congressman parachuting into their districts and paying a visit to the local Friends of Israel or Jewish Federation on their behalves. "If you want to have him come and speak to the Jewish community in Charleston, he's willing to do that," West Virginia Congresswoman Shelley Moore Capito once told me.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 12, 2014, 04:05:53 PM
Stormont meeting launches DUP 'Friends of Israel' group

A group has been launched in Northern Ireland with the aim of advocating on behalf of Israel.

The organisation is the brainchild of the DUP, and is being led by its North Antrim MLA David McIlveen.

It is made up of a six-strong committee, and had its first meeting last night in Stormont Parliament Buildings, with Mr McIlveen saying he aimed to have around 100 members sign up initially.

Among those attending were the First Minister Peter Robinson and the deputy Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Eitan Na'eh.

It is intended to mirror similar groups in Westminster, which already operate under the auspices of the Tories, Labour or Lib Dems.

Asked what it will do, Mr McIlveen said: "I've tried to shrink it down as simply as I can to three As. The first one would be advocate, obviously, on behalf of Israel...

"The second one would be to argue. So, whenever we feel there is an unfair portrayal of Israel being presented whether that be in social media or mainstream media, that we do our part to try and argue against it.

"And then the third part is action. That's where we'll be trying to use our elected representatives, particularly at ministerial level, to try and ensure that there is as good a relationship with Israel at a business level as we possibly can."

The hi-tech nation is "probably one of the research-and-development capitals of the world now", he said, adding that once the group is up and running they would be looking into the idea of taking trips out to the country.

Although it is an initiative of his own party, Mr McIlveen said that anyone – ranging from representatives of other parties to members of the public – were welcome to join if they wish.

He has been a regular visitor to Israel privately himself, and said: "You do open your eyes to the fact it is at times a very different country to – at times – what it is perceived to be. I think we can use this group, I hope, to maybe just get the true message out, to get the facts out, about what actually is going on over there."

He said he is a firm supporter of a two-state solution to the conflict with its neighbouring Palestinian territories, saying those who recognise Israel's right to exist and want to live peacefully within Palestinian borders have "no quarrel from me".

Asked about the widespread Israeli settlements within the Palestinian West Bank, a major source of tension in the Middle East, he said he had met Israelis who feel they were essential, and others with military backgrounds who feel they are "far too expensive to keep".

"I think that's a matter for the Israeli people to decide," he concluded.


http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/stormont-meeting-launches-dup-friends-of-israel-group-1-6114099
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 12, 2014, 05:01:05 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 12, 2014, 04:05:53 PM
Stormont meeting launches DUP 'Friends of Israel' group

A group has been launched in Northern Ireland with the aim of advocating on behalf of Israel.

The organisation is the brainchild of the DUP, and is being led by its North Antrim MLA David McIlveen.

It is made up of a six-strong committee, and had its first meeting last night in Stormont Parliament Buildings, with Mr McIlveen saying he aimed to have around 100 members sign up initially.

Among those attending were the First Minister Peter Robinson and the deputy Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Eitan Na'eh.

It is intended to mirror similar groups in Westminster, which already operate under the auspices of the Tories, Labour or Lib Dems.

Asked what it will do, Mr McIlveen said: "I've tried to shrink it down as simply as I can to three As. The first one would be advocate, obviously, on behalf of Israel...

"The second one would be to argue. So, whenever we feel there is an unfair portrayal of Israel being presented whether that be in social media or mainstream media, that we do our part to try and argue against it.

"And then the third part is action. That's where we'll be trying to use our elected representatives, particularly at ministerial level, to try and ensure that there is as good a relationship with Israel at a business level as we possibly can."

The hi-tech nation is "probably one of the research-and-development capitals of the world now", he said, adding that once the group is up and running they would be looking into the idea of taking trips out to the country.

Although it is an initiative of his own party, Mr McIlveen said that anyone – ranging from representatives of other parties to members of the public – were welcome to join if they wish.

He has been a regular visitor to Israel privately himself, and said: "You do open your eyes to the fact it is at times a very different country to – at times – what it is perceived to be. I think we can use this group, I hope, to maybe just get the true message out, to get the facts out, about what actually is going on over there."

He said he is a firm supporter of a two-state solution to the conflict with its neighbouring Palestinian territories, saying those who recognise Israel's right to exist and want to live peacefully within Palestinian borders have "no quarrel from me".

Asked about the widespread Israeli settlements within the Palestinian West Bank, a major source of tension in the Middle East, he said he had met Israelis who feel they were essential, and others with military backgrounds who feel they are "far too expensive to keep".

"I think that's a matter for the Israeli people to decide," he concluded.


http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/stormont-meeting-launches-dup-friends-of-israel-group-1-6114099
the DUP and the Likud are quite similar really.
Both swept aside the less radical establishment party in their settler colonial gerrymandered statelet and
both have difficulties dealing with the natives.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on June 12, 2014, 05:44:15 PM
So it's for the "people of Israel" to decide whether illegal settlements should remain in another peoples' country?
I suppose coming from a group who who ensured that only Protestant/Unionists could decide things ..........
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 07:40:58 PM
Just to show that GHD and Seafoid's type of intolerance can have some pretty real consequences. I'll bet some of these lads are avid followers of www.barnsereview.org just like GHD.....purely for research of course   ::)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/12/racism-northern-ireland-couple-tell-abuse-belfast

QuoteRima and Michael Lynch thought they and their children would be safe from racial abuse when they moved to a Catholic working-class area close to central Belfast.

But the mixed-race couple's experience over six years puts a human face on the rise of race-hate crimes in the city, beyond Protestant/loyalist areas with a reputation for xenophobia.

Rima, a Christian-Israeli Arab, has been branded a Roma, Romanian, "Jew whore" and "dirty Arab" by a family who have subjected her family to a slew of racist abuse and intimidation.
The Guardian has learned there have been 13 arrests linked to race-hate attacks in Greater Belfast since the start of last month. But the Lynch family say the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) in south Belfast has failed to act against local people who have terrorised them in the nationalist Lower Ormeau area.

PSNI statistics show a sharp increase in race crimes and racist incidents in the past two years. In 2012/2013 the PSNI recorded 470 racial hate crimes but that figure rose to 691 to the year ending March 2014. In the same period incidents of racial abuse and intimidation rose from 750 to 982.

When Michael Lynch, who met his wife in Israel, moved back to his native Belfast he decided it would be safer to live in the Catholic Lower Ormeau Road area than in a loyalist area. The Lynches say they and their three children were targeted by a local woman, her husband and children, who objected to the presence of immigrants in their midst.

"At first they said I was Roma and then later Romanian," Rima said. "When I finally spoke to this woman I told her I was an Arab-Israeli, born in Galilee. At first I was called a 'Jew whore' for being Israeli and later when I reminded neighbours that I was an Arab-Christian I was branded a 'dirty Arab'.

"At first it was low-level intimidation with our windows being rapped violently at night when we were watching television in the front room, or our plant pots turned over in the street, or local kids banging the door. Later they targeted my two sons on social networks, repeating the racist slurs and later the real bullying began against the boys," Rima said.

Her husband said the racist bullying of one son got so bad he had to take him out of a local Catholic secondary school. "I couldn't believe this was happening in a Catholic area where I wanted the family to settle. It was near to work, close to the city centre, not far from the university district and some good schools. But after all we have been put through we are seriously considering moving out to another part of Belfast," he said.

His wife said the children of the family behind most of the intimidation called her sons and daughter "monkeys" and told them to go back to Israel. "They bullied a single Polish mother and her children out of the same area and I know for a fact they are putting pressure on an African lady who lives in the same street. Yet the police up until very recently were not prepared to take action against these people," she said.

Rima stressed she had "many, many good friends" among the locally born population in the Lower Ormeau but believed neighbours were terrified of their tormentors. She added: "In a strange way I could cope with this better if it was happening in a loyalist, Protestant area. At least they are upfront and open about the way some of them in that community treat foreigners. In this area, among people of the same faith, it is more a case of being smiled at to your face and then stabbed in the back."

However, most recent attacks have undoubtedly taken place in loyalist working-class redoubts such as east Belfast and Newtonabbey on the northern outskirts of the city. Among those targeted in loyalist communities was Palestinian nurse Mohammed Samaana, who has worked in the NHS since 2000. He said even some of his patients had verbally abused him.

He said: "A female patient told me: 'You are not from here and I resent all foreigners who come to Ireland.' The worst experience of racism though was when I was attacked in the [loyalist] Sandy Row area and I felt my life was at risk."

Samaana said he was more concerned about being a Muslim in Northern Ireland after the comments of Pastor James McConnell, who called Islam "satanic". McConnell initially received the support of the first minister, Peter Robinson. Both Robinson and McConnell later apologised for their remarks, which included Robinson stating that he would not trust any Muslim that adhered to sharia law.

Samaana said: "In general I'd say Belfast was initially welcoming but it is gradually changing for the worse. It feels like the I way I was treated when I first came to Northampton, in England, where people had very negative attitude towards people like me and where I faced social exclusion and alienation, which made me leave. They say Muslims don't want to integrate. In my experience, and in the experience of others I know, many Muslims do want to integrate but we feel shunned most of the time."

Jonathan Tongue, author of The Democratic Unionist Party: From Protest to Power and a University of Liverpool lecturer, blamed "post-Troubles paranoia" for the rise in racism in Protestant areas. "These people are used to having a united identity and they are not used to outsiders in their midst. Catholics were driven from their areas decades ago so they are stunned by this recent wave of immigrants coming into their communities.

"In addition, the old enemy they fought isn't around any more now that the conflict is over, although sectarianism is far from dead. So they have found, due to globalisation, a new imagined enemy in their areas."

Tongue said that while many loyalist political leaders were opposed to the attacks, they sometimes happened spontaneously. "There is a bit of a Millwall mentality within working-class loyalist communities – the perception that 'no one likes us, we don't care'. They don't see how much damage these attacks are doing to their own image, their own communities even if, to be completely fair, loyalist leaders on the ground see this. Most importantly, there has been no economic or social 'peace dividend' for the loyalist working class and now they see immigrants coming in who are competitors."

In Catholic districts there have been some anti-immigrant problems around Dungannon, in County Tyrone, but such incidents have mainly occurred in loyalist communities.

Meanwhile, Anna Lo, the UK's only Chinese-born parliamentarian, who has been subjected to verbal and physical threats from racists in Belfast, said she had been "absolutely overwhelmed" by support she received after expressing fears over the rise of racism, but reiterated that she was quitting politics.

Lo, who represents the Alliance party in the Stormont assembly, said: "The people in general are wonderful here and I was inundated with cards, messages, flowers and gifts after I told the Guardian I was fed up with local politics. The good people have convinced me at least not to leave Northern Ireland and move to England where my sons live. But as for political life, I don't see a future for me beyond the next assembly elections in 2016. It's time for a new generation to try and challenge the racists and the bigots."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on June 12, 2014, 08:05:03 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 07:40:58 PM
Just to show that GHD and Seafoid's type of intolerance can have some pretty real consequences. I'll bet some of these lads are avid followers of www.barnsereview.org just like GHD.....purely for research of course   ::)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/12/racism-northern-ireland-couple-tell-abuse-belfast

QuoteRima and Michael Lynch thought they and their children would be safe from racial abuse when they moved to a Catholic working-class area close to central Belfast.

But the mixed-race couple's experience over six years puts a human face on the rise of race-hate crimes in the city, beyond Protestant/loyalist areas with a reputation for xenophobia.

Rima, a Christian-Israeli Arab, has been branded a Roma, Romanian, "Jew whore" and "dirty Arab" by a family who have subjected her family to a slew of racist abuse and intimidation.
The Guardian has learned there have been 13 arrests linked to race-hate attacks in Greater Belfast since the start of last month. But the Lynch family say the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) in south Belfast has failed to act against local people who have terrorised them in the nationalist Lower Ormeau area.

PSNI statistics show a sharp increase in race crimes and racist incidents in the past two years. In 2012/2013 the PSNI recorded 470 racial hate crimes but that figure rose to 691 to the year ending March 2014. In the same period incidents of racial abuse and intimidation rose from 750 to 982.

When Michael Lynch, who met his wife in Israel, moved back to his native Belfast he decided it would be safer to live in the Catholic Lower Ormeau Road area than in a loyalist area. The Lynches say they and their three children were targeted by a local woman, her husband and children, who objected to the presence of immigrants in their midst.

"At first they said I was Roma and then later Romanian," Rima said. "When I finally spoke to this woman I told her I was an Arab-Israeli, born in Galilee. At first I was called a 'Jew whore' for being Israeli and later when I reminded neighbours that I was an Arab-Christian I was branded a 'dirty Arab'.

"At first it was low-level intimidation with our windows being rapped violently at night when we were watching television in the front room, or our plant pots turned over in the street, or local kids banging the door. Later they targeted my two sons on social networks, repeating the racist slurs and later the real bullying began against the boys," Rima said.

Her husband said the racist bullying of one son got so bad he had to take him out of a local Catholic secondary school. "I couldn't believe this was happening in a Catholic area where I wanted the family to settle. It was near to work, close to the city centre, not far from the university district and some good schools. But after all we have been put through we are seriously considering moving out to another part of Belfast," he said.

His wife said the children of the family behind most of the intimidation called her sons and daughter "monkeys" and told them to go back to Israel. "They bullied a single Polish mother and her children out of the same area and I know for a fact they are putting pressure on an African lady who lives in the same street. Yet the police up until very recently were not prepared to take action against these people," she said.

Rima stressed she had "many, many good friends" among the locally born population in the Lower Ormeau but believed neighbours were terrified of their tormentors. She added: "In a strange way I could cope with this better if it was happening in a loyalist, Protestant area. At least they are upfront and open about the way some of them in that community treat foreigners. In this area, among people of the same faith, it is more a case of being smiled at to your face and then stabbed in the back."

However, most recent attacks have undoubtedly taken place in loyalist working-class redoubts such as east Belfast and Newtonabbey on the northern outskirts of the city. Among those targeted in loyalist communities was Palestinian nurse Mohammed Samaana, who has worked in the NHS since 2000. He said even some of his patients had verbally abused him.

He said: "A female patient told me: 'You are not from here and I resent all foreigners who come to Ireland.' The worst experience of racism though was when I was attacked in the [loyalist] Sandy Row area and I felt my life was at risk."

Samaana said he was more concerned about being a Muslim in Northern Ireland after the comments of Pastor James McConnell, who called Islam "satanic". McConnell initially received the support of the first minister, Peter Robinson. Both Robinson and McConnell later apologised for their remarks, which included Robinson stating that he would not trust any Muslim that adhered to sharia law.

Samaana said: "In general I'd say Belfast was initially welcoming but it is gradually changing for the worse. It feels like the I way I was treated when I first came to Northampton, in England, where people had very negative attitude towards people like me and where I faced social exclusion and alienation, which made me leave. They say Muslims don't want to integrate. In my experience, and in the experience of others I know, many Muslims do want to integrate but we feel shunned most of the time."

Jonathan Tongue, author of The Democratic Unionist Party: From Protest to Power and a University of Liverpool lecturer, blamed "post-Troubles paranoia" for the rise in racism in Protestant areas. "These people are used to having a united identity and they are not used to outsiders in their midst. Catholics were driven from their areas decades ago so they are stunned by this recent wave of immigrants coming into their communities.

"In addition, the old enemy they fought isn't around any more now that the conflict is over, although sectarianism is far from dead. So they have found, due to globalisation, a new imagined enemy in their areas."

Tongue said that while many loyalist political leaders were opposed to the attacks, they sometimes happened spontaneously. "There is a bit of a Millwall mentality within working-class loyalist communities – the perception that 'no one likes us, we don't care'. They don't see how much damage these attacks are doing to their own image, their own communities even if, to be completely fair, loyalist leaders on the ground see this. Most importantly, there has been no economic or social 'peace dividend' for the loyalist working class and now they see immigrants coming in who are competitors."

In Catholic districts there have been some anti-immigrant problems around Dungannon, in County Tyrone, but such incidents have mainly occurred in loyalist communities.

Meanwhile, Anna Lo, the UK's only Chinese-born parliamentarian, who has been subjected to verbal and physical threats from racists in Belfast, said she had been "absolutely overwhelmed" by support she received after expressing fears over the rise of racism, but reiterated that she was quitting politics.

Lo, who represents the Alliance party in the Stormont assembly, said: "The people in general are wonderful here and I was inundated with cards, messages, flowers and gifts after I told the Guardian I was fed up with local politics. The good people have convinced me at least not to leave Northern Ireland and move to England where my sons live. But as for political life, I don't see a future for me beyond the next assembly elections in 2016. It's time for a new generation to try and challenge the racists and the bigots."

Mick, you are a clampett of the lowest order!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 12, 2014, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 07:40:58 PM
Just to show that GHD and Seafoid's type of intolerance can have some pretty real consequences. I'll bet some of these lads are avid followers of www.barnsereview.org just like GHD.....purely for research of course   ::)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/12/racism-northern-ireland-couple-tell-abuse-belfast

QuoteRima and Michael Lynch thought they and their children would be safe from racial abuse when they moved to a Catholic working-class area close to central Belfast.

But the mixed-race couple's experience over six years puts a human face on the rise of race-hate crimes in the city, beyond Protestant/loyalist areas with a reputation for xenophobia.

Rima, a Christian-Israeli Arab, has been branded a Roma, Romanian, "Jew whore" and "dirty Arab" by a family who have subjected her family to a slew of racist abuse and intimidation.
The Guardian has learned there have been 13 arrests linked to race-hate attacks in Greater Belfast since the start of last month. But the Lynch family say the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) in south Belfast has failed to act against local people who have terrorised them in the nationalist Lower Ormeau area.

PSNI statistics show a sharp increase in race crimes and racist incidents in the past two years. In 2012/2013 the PSNI recorded 470 racial hate crimes but that figure rose to 691 to the year ending March 2014. In the same period incidents of racial abuse and intimidation rose from 750 to 982.

When Michael Lynch, who met his wife in Israel, moved back to his native Belfast he decided it would be safer to live in the Catholic Lower Ormeau Road area than in a loyalist area. The Lynches say they and their three children were targeted by a local woman, her husband and children, who objected to the presence of immigrants in their midst.

"At first they said I was Roma and then later Romanian," Rima said. "When I finally spoke to this woman I told her I was an Arab-Israeli, born in Galilee. At first I was called a 'Jew whore' for being Israeli and later when I reminded neighbours that I was an Arab-Christian I was branded a 'dirty Arab'.

"At first it was low-level intimidation with our windows being rapped violently at night when we were watching television in the front room, or our plant pots turned over in the street, or local kids banging the door. Later they targeted my two sons on social networks, repeating the racist slurs and later the real bullying began against the boys," Rima said.

Her husband said the racist bullying of one son got so bad he had to take him out of a local Catholic secondary school. "I couldn't believe this was happening in a Catholic area where I wanted the family to settle. It was near to work, close to the city centre, not far from the university district and some good schools. But after all we have been put through we are seriously considering moving out to another part of Belfast," he said.

His wife said the children of the family behind most of the intimidation called her sons and daughter "monkeys" and told them to go back to Israel. "They bullied a single Polish mother and her children out of the same area and I know for a fact they are putting pressure on an African lady who lives in the same street. Yet the police up until very recently were not prepared to take action against these people," she said.

Rima stressed she had "many, many good friends" among the locally born population in the Lower Ormeau but believed neighbours were terrified of their tormentors. She added: "In a strange way I could cope with this better if it was happening in a loyalist, Protestant area. At least they are upfront and open about the way some of them in that community treat foreigners. In this area, among people of the same faith, it is more a case of being smiled at to your face and then stabbed in the back."

However, most recent attacks have undoubtedly taken place in loyalist working-class redoubts such as east Belfast and Newtonabbey on the northern outskirts of the city. Among those targeted in loyalist communities was Palestinian nurse Mohammed Samaana, who has worked in the NHS since 2000. He said even some of his patients had verbally abused him.

He said: "A female patient told me: 'You are not from here and I resent all foreigners who come to Ireland.' The worst experience of racism though was when I was attacked in the [loyalist] Sandy Row area and I felt my life was at risk."

Samaana said he was more concerned about being a Muslim in Northern Ireland after the comments of Pastor James McConnell, who called Islam "satanic". McConnell initially received the support of the first minister, Peter Robinson. Both Robinson and McConnell later apologised for their remarks, which included Robinson stating that he would not trust any Muslim that adhered to sharia law.

Samaana said: "In general I'd say Belfast was initially welcoming but it is gradually changing for the worse. It feels like the I way I was treated when I first came to Northampton, in England, where people had very negative attitude towards people like me and where I faced social exclusion and alienation, which made me leave. They say Muslims don't want to integrate. In my experience, and in the experience of others I know, many Muslims do want to integrate but we feel shunned most of the time."

Jonathan Tongue, author of The Democratic Unionist Party: From Protest to Power and a University of Liverpool lecturer, blamed "post-Troubles paranoia" for the rise in racism in Protestant areas. "These people are used to having a united identity and they are not used to outsiders in their midst. Catholics were driven from their areas decades ago so they are stunned by this recent wave of immigrants coming into their communities.

"In addition, the old enemy they fought isn't around any more now that the conflict is over, although sectarianism is far from dead. So they have found, due to globalisation, a new imagined enemy in their areas."

Tongue said that while many loyalist political leaders were opposed to the attacks, they sometimes happened spontaneously. "There is a bit of a Millwall mentality within working-class loyalist communities – the perception that 'no one likes us, we don't care'. They don't see how much damage these attacks are doing to their own image, their own communities even if, to be completely fair, loyalist leaders on the ground see this. Most importantly, there has been no economic or social 'peace dividend' for the loyalist working class and now they see immigrants coming in who are competitors."

In Catholic districts there have been some anti-immigrant problems around Dungannon, in County Tyrone, but such incidents have mainly occurred in loyalist communities.

Meanwhile, Anna Lo, the UK's only Chinese-born parliamentarian, who has been subjected to verbal and physical threats from racists in Belfast, said she had been "absolutely overwhelmed" by support she received after expressing fears over the rise of racism, but reiterated that she was quitting politics.

Lo, who represents the Alliance party in the Stormont assembly, said: "The people in general are wonderful here and I was inundated with cards, messages, flowers and gifts after I told the Guardian I was fed up with local politics. The good people have convinced me at least not to leave Northern Ireland and move to England where my sons live. But as for political life, I don't see a future for me beyond the next assembly elections in 2016. It's time for a new generation to try and challenge the racists and the bigots."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facepalm

The woman is Palestinian.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 12, 2014, 10:12:30 PM
Sinead O'Connor announced today that she is to play in Israel in August.

The social media back lash has started, and she is in for a tough time over this decision.

Watch this space as she is sure to go off on one over this.......
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 12, 2014, 10:19:15 PM
United Methodist Church Divests from G4S


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

June 12, 2014

Largest Mainline Protestant Church in U.S. Divests from Company
Involved in Israeli Occupation




Amid concerns raised by church justice advocates, United Methodist Church Pensions
sells all stocks in G4S, a supplier of security services and equipment for Israeli prisons, settlements, checkpoints and Separation Wall.

Los Angeles - The General Board of Pension and Health Benefits (GBPHB) of The United Methodist Church, which manages an investment portfolio of over $20 billion, has instructed its investment manager to sell immediately all shares in G4S, due in part to concerns about the company's involvement in human rights violations in the Israeli prison system and the military occupation of Palestinian territories.



According to David Wildman, United Methodist Executive Secretary for Human Rights and Racial Justice at the General Board of Global Ministries, "This is the first time that a United Methodist general agency has included human rights violations related to Israel's illegal settlements and military occupation in a decision to divest from a company. We celebrate this strong human rights message both to G4S specifically and to other companies whose business operations support longstanding human rights abuses against Palestinians."



In addition, the church agency has placed a moratorium on any future purchases of G4S, the world's largest security company with operations in over 120 countries, until a new investment screen is implemented that addresses human rights violations such as those by the Israeli Defense Forces against Palestinians. 



A top executive of GBPHB contacted United Methodist Kairos Response (UMKR) leaders this week about the sale of G4S stocks, informing them that this decision was due in large part to the serious concerns about G4S activities raised by United Methodists seeking a just and peaceful resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 



UMKR, a church-wide advocacy movement focused on Israel-Palestine issues, has raised questions within the church for several years about companies in the denomination's investment portfolio, including G4S, that are involved in the Israeli occupation. "We greatly appreciate the news and we commend the General Board of Pensions and Health Benefits for taking this groundbreaking action to address the concerns of many United Methodists about human rights violations in Israel and the occupied territories," said Rev. John Wagner, UMKR Convener and a church pastor in Ohio.



G4S contracts with the Israeli Prison Service to provide management of security systems at prisons within Israel and in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. According to Amnesty International, B'Tselem an Israeli human rights organization, and Defence for Children International-Palestine, Palestinians held in these prisons, including hundreds of child detainees, are routinely subjected to abuse and torture. G4S also provides equipment and services for Israeli settlements and checkpoints in the West Bank and for the Separation Wall, constructed in violation of international law in Palestinian territory.

Last month, under mounting pressure from an international advocacy campaign, the Gates Foundation also made a decision to sell its holdings in G4S. 



UMKR welcomes the church's landmark divestment action as part of a larger and long-term process in which United Methodists seek to address human rights issues, including the 47-year-old Israeli occupation, more comprehensively in the denomination's investment decisions.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 11:13:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 12, 2014, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 07:40:58 PM
Just to show that GHD and Seafoid's type of intolerance can have some pretty real consequences. I'll bet some of these lads are avid followers of www.barnsereview.org just like GHD.....purely for research of course   ::)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/12/racism-northern-ireland-couple-tell-abuse-belfast

QuoteRima and Michael Lynch thought they and their children would be safe from racial abuse when they moved to a Catholic working-class area close to central Belfast.

But the mixed-race couple's experience over six years puts a human face on the rise of race-hate crimes in the city, beyond Protestant/loyalist areas with a reputation for xenophobia.

Rima, a Christian-Israeli Arab, has been branded a Roma, Romanian, "Jew whore" and "dirty Arab" by a family who have subjected her family to a slew of racist abuse and intimidation.
The Guardian has learned there have been 13 arrests linked to race-hate attacks in Greater Belfast since the start of last month. But the Lynch family say the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) in south Belfast has failed to act against local people who have terrorised them in the nationalist Lower Ormeau area.

PSNI statistics show a sharp increase in race crimes and racist incidents in the past two years. In 2012/2013 the PSNI recorded 470 racial hate crimes but that figure rose to 691 to the year ending March 2014. In the same period incidents of racial abuse and intimidation rose from 750 to 982.

When Michael Lynch, who met his wife in Israel, moved back to his native Belfast he decided it would be safer to live in the Catholic Lower Ormeau Road area than in a loyalist area. The Lynches say they and their three children were targeted by a local woman, her husband and children, who objected to the presence of immigrants in their midst.

"At first they said I was Roma and then later Romanian," Rima said. "When I finally spoke to this woman I told her I was an Arab-Israeli, born in Galilee. At first I was called a 'Jew whore' for being Israeli and later when I reminded neighbours that I was an Arab-Christian I was branded a 'dirty Arab'.

"At first it was low-level intimidation with our windows being rapped violently at night when we were watching television in the front room, or our plant pots turned over in the street, or local kids banging the door. Later they targeted my two sons on social networks, repeating the racist slurs and later the real bullying began against the boys," Rima said.

Her husband said the racist bullying of one son got so bad he had to take him out of a local Catholic secondary school. "I couldn't believe this was happening in a Catholic area where I wanted the family to settle. It was near to work, close to the city centre, not far from the university district and some good schools. But after all we have been put through we are seriously considering moving out to another part of Belfast," he said.

His wife said the children of the family behind most of the intimidation called her sons and daughter "monkeys" and told them to go back to Israel. "They bullied a single Polish mother and her children out of the same area and I know for a fact they are putting pressure on an African lady who lives in the same street. Yet the police up until very recently were not prepared to take action against these people," she said.

Rima stressed she had "many, many good friends" among the locally born population in the Lower Ormeau but believed neighbours were terrified of their tormentors. She added: "In a strange way I could cope with this better if it was happening in a loyalist, Protestant area. At least they are upfront and open about the way some of them in that community treat foreigners. In this area, among people of the same faith, it is more a case of being smiled at to your face and then stabbed in the back."

However, most recent attacks have undoubtedly taken place in loyalist working-class redoubts such as east Belfast and Newtonabbey on the northern outskirts of the city. Among those targeted in loyalist communities was Palestinian nurse Mohammed Samaana, who has worked in the NHS since 2000. He said even some of his patients had verbally abused him.

He said: "A female patient told me: 'You are not from here and I resent all foreigners who come to Ireland.' The worst experience of racism though was when I was attacked in the [loyalist] Sandy Row area and I felt my life was at risk."

Samaana said he was more concerned about being a Muslim in Northern Ireland after the comments of Pastor James McConnell, who called Islam "satanic". McConnell initially received the support of the first minister, Peter Robinson. Both Robinson and McConnell later apologised for their remarks, which included Robinson stating that he would not trust any Muslim that adhered to sharia law.

Samaana said: "In general I'd say Belfast was initially welcoming but it is gradually changing for the worse. It feels like the I way I was treated when I first came to Northampton, in England, where people had very negative attitude towards people like me and where I faced social exclusion and alienation, which made me leave. They say Muslims don't want to integrate. In my experience, and in the experience of others I know, many Muslims do want to integrate but we feel shunned most of the time."

Jonathan Tongue, author of The Democratic Unionist Party: From Protest to Power and a University of Liverpool lecturer, blamed "post-Troubles paranoia" for the rise in racism in Protestant areas. "These people are used to having a united identity and they are not used to outsiders in their midst. Catholics were driven from their areas decades ago so they are stunned by this recent wave of immigrants coming into their communities.

"In addition, the old enemy they fought isn't around any more now that the conflict is over, although sectarianism is far from dead. So they have found, due to globalisation, a new imagined enemy in their areas."

Tongue said that while many loyalist political leaders were opposed to the attacks, they sometimes happened spontaneously. "There is a bit of a Millwall mentality within working-class loyalist communities – the perception that 'no one likes us, we don't care'. They don't see how much damage these attacks are doing to their own image, their own communities even if, to be completely fair, loyalist leaders on the ground see this. Most importantly, there has been no economic or social 'peace dividend' for the loyalist working class and now they see immigrants coming in who are competitors."

In Catholic districts there have been some anti-immigrant problems around Dungannon, in County Tyrone, but such incidents have mainly occurred in loyalist communities.

Meanwhile, Anna Lo, the UK's only Chinese-born parliamentarian, who has been subjected to verbal and physical threats from racists in Belfast, said she had been "absolutely overwhelmed" by support she received after expressing fears over the rise of racism, but reiterated that she was quitting politics.

Lo, who represents the Alliance party in the Stormont assembly, said: "The people in general are wonderful here and I was inundated with cards, messages, flowers and gifts after I told the Guardian I was fed up with local politics. The good people have convinced me at least not to leave Northern Ireland and move to England where my sons live. But as for political life, I don't see a future for me beyond the next assembly elections in 2016. It's time for a new generation to try and challenge the racists and the bigots."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facepalm

The woman is Palestinian.

Yes , and that is clearly stated in the article that I posted so you can double facepalm yourself.The point is she was perceived as jewish and abused because of it, thanks, in part, to the kind of hatemongering you two get up to.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 11:21:51 PM
Also, point of order, not all Arab-Christians in Israel identify as Palestinian.

Once again you demonstrate your complete and utter ignorance of Israel/Palestine.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 08:51:42 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 11:21:51 PM
Also, point of order, not all Arab-Christians in Israel identify as Palestinian.

Once again you demonstrate your complete and utter ignorance of Israel/Palestine.

3/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w85t5wxxamk
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 13, 2014, 12:51:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 08:51:42 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 11:21:51 PM
Also, point of order, not all Arab-Christians in Israel identify as Palestinian.

Once again you demonstrate your complete and utter ignorance of Israel/Palestine.

3/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w85t5wxxamk

Are you disgreeing with that point of order clarification  Seafoid ? or are you just full of shit and dont want to engage so as not to expose your stupidity even more ?  All we know for sure is that the woman was born in near Galilee and is an Arab-Israeli christian yet you are insistent that she can't be identified as anything other than Palestinian ? She may or may not be.......how do you know for sure ?

This is why these situations only get worse when idiots like you stick your noses in. Self proclaimed middle east experts who dont know, or dont give a damn, about the complex identities of the region  ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on June 13, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 07:40:58 PM
Just to show that GHD and Seafoid's type of intolerance can have some pretty real consequences. I'll bet some of these lads are avid followers of www.barnsereview.org just like GHD.....purely for research of course   ::)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/12/racism-northern-ireland-couple-tell-abuse-belfast


I'd say most of those those people could barely spell their own name, never mind go online to read up or follow anyone or anything.

It's not "GHD or Seafoid's type of intolerance", it's intolerance full stop.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 13, 2014, 12:51:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 08:51:42 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 11:21:51 PM
Also, point of order, not all Arab-Christians in Israel identify as Palestinian.

Once again you demonstrate your complete and utter ignorance of Israel/Palestine.

3/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w85t5wxxamk

Are you disgreeing with that point of order clarification  Seafoid ? or are you just full of shit and dont want to engage so as not to expose your stupidity even more ?  All we know for sure is that the woman was born in near Galilee and is an Arab-Israeli christian yet you are insistent that she can't be identified as anything other than Palestinian ? She may or may not be.......how do you know for sure ?

This is why these situations only get worse when idiots like you stick your noses in. Self proclaimed middle east experts who dont know, or dont give a damn, about the complex identities of the region  ::)

There is no point in discussing anything with you. All you do is insult me. You never make a point and you never learn anything.
So keep on talking to yourself.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 13, 2014, 03:29:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 13, 2014, 12:51:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 08:51:42 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 11:21:51 PM
Also, point of order, not all Arab-Christians in Israel identify as Palestinian.

Once again you demonstrate your complete and utter ignorance of Israel/Palestine.

3/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w85t5wxxamk

Are you disgreeing with that point of order clarification  Seafoid ? or are you just full of shit and dont want to engage so as not to expose your stupidity even more ?  All we know for sure is that the woman was born in near Galilee and is an Arab-Israeli christian yet you are insistent that she can't be identified as anything other than Palestinian ? She may or may not be.......how do you know for sure ?

This is why these situations only get worse when idiots like you stick your noses in. Self proclaimed middle east experts who dont know, or dont give a damn, about the complex identities of the region  ::)

There is no point in discussing anything with you. All you do is insult me. You never make a point and you never learn anything.
So keep on talking to yourself.

+1
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 13, 2014, 03:35:14 PM
I deleted the earlier post on the deaths as Israeli media have now updated the story.

It seems 3 teenagers have failed to come home, and Israel is up to high do calling it a kidnapping.

Its anyones guess right now, so it will be best watching this story unfold in the coming hours and days

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.598583?v=75BDB014F280060B23A3FF5968251526
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 04:04:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 13, 2014, 03:35:14 PM
I deleted the earlier post on the deaths as Israeli media have now updated the story.

It seems 3 teenagers have failed to come home, and Israel is up to high do calling it a kidnapping.

Its anyones guess right now, so it will be best watching this story unfold in the coming hours and days

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.598583?v=75BDB014F280060B23A3FF5968251526
I bet they are pulling in Palestinians for torture to help with their investigation.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 13, 2014, 04:13:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 13, 2014, 12:51:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 08:51:42 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 12, 2014, 11:21:51 PM
Also, point of order, not all Arab-Christians in Israel identify as Palestinian.

Once again you demonstrate your complete and utter ignorance of Israel/Palestine.

3/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w85t5wxxamk

Are you disgreeing with that point of order clarification  Seafoid ? or are you just full of shit and dont want to engage so as not to expose your stupidity even more ?  All we know for sure is that the woman was born in near Galilee and is an Arab-Israeli christian yet you are insistent that she can't be identified as anything other than Palestinian ? She may or may not be.......how do you know for sure ?

This is why these situations only get worse when idiots like you stick your noses in. Self proclaimed middle east experts who dont know, or dont give a damn, about the complex identities of the region  ::)

There is no point in discussing anything with you. All you do is insult me. You never make a point and you never learn anything.
So keep on talking to yourself.

When have you ever "discussed" anything Seafoid ? cut'n'pasting something every 5 minutes and ranting at the Yanks or jews does not count as "discussion".

Now, why don't you just answer the question. Are all Arab-Israeli Christians automatically considered "Palestinian" by you ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 13, 2014, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 13, 2014, 04:04:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 13, 2014, 03:35:14 PM
I deleted the earlier post on the deaths as Israeli media have now updated the story.

It seems 3 teenagers have failed to come home, and Israel is up to high do calling it a kidnapping.

Its anyones guess right now, so it will be best watching this story unfold in the coming hours and days

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.598583?v=75BDB014F280060B23A3FF5968251526
I bet they are pulling in Palestinians for torture to help with their investigation.

So three teenagers are missing and you two are jumping in and playing politics before anyone even knows what is going on.

Disgusting behaviour.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 14, 2014, 03:46:35 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/14/fears-grow-missing-israeli-teenagers-settlers-west-bank

"Netanyahu's office said it held the Palestinian Authority responsible for the teenagers' safety. This was quickly rejected by Adnan Demeiri, a spokesman for the Palestinian security services, who said the boys disappeared in an area under full Israeli security control.'

What a clown
They can't even provide security in Erez Israel. Tsk tsk
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 14, 2014, 07:44:29 PM
Gaza child succumbs to wounds 3 days after Israeli strike

A Palestinian child on Saturday succumbed to wounds received during an Israeli bombing three days before.

Spokesman for the Gaza Ministry of Health Ashraf al-Qidra said that seven-year-old Ali Abd al-Latif al-Awour was injured during an Israeli strike of the al-Sudaniya region in the northern Gaza Strip on Wednesday.

The strike targeted a Palestinian affiliated with a militant group who was passing through the area on a motorcycle.

The victim was Muhammad Ahmad al-Awour, 30, who was affiliated with the An-Nasser Salah al-Din Brigades, the military wing of the Popular Resistance Committees.

Israel said the strike came in response to rocket fire from the strip and that the victim was affiliated with "international jihad," but al-Awour's family said he had gone out to get food for dinner when he was killed.

Ali Abd al-Latif al-Awour was walking by when the strike hit.

Israel has killed over 60 Palestinians since last July and injured more than a thousand in the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip.


http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=704688
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 14, 2014, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 14, 2014, 07:44:29 PM
Gaza child succumbs to wounds 3 days after Israeli strike

A Palestinian child on Saturday succumbed to wounds received during an Israeli bombing three days before.

Spokesman for the Gaza Ministry of Health Ashraf al-Qidra said that seven-year-old Ali Abd al-Latif al-Awour was injured during an Israeli strike of the al-Sudaniya region in the northern Gaza Strip on Wednesday.

The strike targeted a Palestinian affiliated with a militant group who was passing through the area on a motorcycle.

The victim was Muhammad Ahmad al-Awour, 30, who was affiliated with the An-Nasser Salah al-Din Brigades, the military wing of the Popular Resistance Committees.

Israel said the strike came in response to rocket fire from the strip and that the victim was affiliated with "international jihad," but al-Awour's family said he had gone out to get food for dinner when he was killed.

Ali Abd al-Latif al-Awour was walking by when the strike hit.

Israel has killed over 60 Palestinians since last July and injured more than a thousand in the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip.


http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=704688
and  Israel claims Gaza is no longer occupied
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 14, 2014, 09:16:35 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 11, 2014, 08:55:00 PM
Meanwhile, back in Gaza in the past 15 minutes, an Israeli/US airstrike hit a motorbike in a crowded area killing 1 and seriously injuring 3 others........

This was the attack that claimed the life of young Ali, aged just 7.

The following afternoon Wendy Austin was interviewing the Israeli ambassador and a DUP politician who together had just launched "The DUP friends of Israel" group.

I called in and went on air. I brought up this death and the injury of others, including Ali who died today. I brought up how Septh Blatter issued a warning to Israel for shooting 2 Palestinian footballers in their feet and ankles. I brought up the deaths of 2 teenagers a couple of weeks ago that has been captured on CCTV and CNN. I then brought up the mass hunger strike by Palestinians who are been held under internment.

At this stage, it was too much for Wendy, and I was cut off. I didn't mind as I had made my point. However, she returned to the Israeli Ambassador and David McIlveen and refused to bring up what I had just said.

Go to 16 mins 30 sec to hear the DUP spokesperson and the Israeli ambassador speak. I speak on air at 25 mins 30 secs


http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b045k5wx
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 14, 2014, 09:27:41 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 14, 2014, 09:16:35 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 11, 2014, 08:55:00 PM
Meanwhile, back in Gaza in the past 15 minutes, an Israeli/US airstrike hit a motorbike in a crowded area killing 1 and seriously injuring 3 others........

This was the attack that claimed the life of young Ali, aged just 7.

The following afternoon Wendy Austin was interviewing the Israeli ambassador and a DUP politician who together had just launched "The DUP friends of Israel" group.

I called in and went on air. I brought up this death and the injury of others, including Ali who died today. I brought up how Septh Blatter issued a warning to Israel for shooting 2 Palestinian footballers in their feet and ankles. I brought up the deaths of 2 teenagers a couple of weeks ago that has been captured on CCTV and CNN. I then brought up the mass hunger strike by Palestinians who are been held under internment.

At this stage, it was too much for Wendy, and I was cut off. I didn't mind as I had made my point. However, she returned to the Israeli Ambassador and David McIlveen and refused to bring up what I had just said.

Go to 16 mins 30 sec to hear the DUP spokesperson and the Israeli ambassador speak. I speak on air at 25 mins 30 secs


http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b045k5wx
Good stuff GHD

The Israeli spokespeople are lost given the state of hasbara. Talking about peace when Netanyahu jokes about avoiding talks.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 14, 2014, 09:47:04 PM
In the past hour, several airstrikes have rocked the Gaza Strip. No injuries reported at this stage
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 18, 2014, 08:45:30 AM
Desmond Tutu: U.S. Christians must recognize Israel as apartheid state

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.599422?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Veteran anti-apartheid activist and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Desmond Tutu has called on the Presbyterian Church (USA) to pass a series of resolutions condemning Israel as an apartheid state and proposing policies to boycott it.

The church's biennial General Assembly, which is currently meeting in Detroit, has on its agenda eight resolutions dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Activists want the church and its institutions to use their investment dollars to punish Israel over its treatment of the Palestinians, such as by withdrawing investments from companies whose products are used by the Israeli government in the Palestinian territories

LIVE UPDATES: Netanyahu hails arrest of 50 former prisoners freed in 2011 Shalit swap

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.599527

Israel's security forces overnight Wednesday arrested 65 Palestinians, 50 of which were among the 1,027 prisoners released by Israel in 2011, as part of an exchange deal to free IDF soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity. 240 arrests were made since the start of the operation on Friday, 180 members of them Hamas men.

In bid to increase pressure on Hamas, the cabinet decided on Tuesday to worsen the conditions of members of the organization held in Israeli prisons. In addition, the government is weighing whether to expel top Hamas officials from the West Bank to Gaza.

"The campaign against Hamas is complicated and prolonged. It didn't start today and it will not end soon. We're hitting Hamas in every dimension," Maj. Gen. Nitzan Alon, who commands the military in the West Bank, said on Tuesday. He added that Hamas leaders "are feeling the heat and getting the message."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 18, 2014, 08:49:37 AM
Sinead O'Connor changes mind about performing in Israel

Singer Sinead O'Connor is attempting to back out of a scheduled performance in Israel, saying that she was unaware pro-Palestinian groups had called on her to boycott Israel.

"I was not informed by my booking agent and was unaware myself, that a boycott of Israel had been requested by the Palestinian people," O'Connor wrote in a statement published Friday on her website and later removed.

"I agreed to perform having been unaware any such boycott had been requested. Had I been aware I would not have agreed to perform."

The Irish singer is scheduled to play in Caesarea on September 11. The concert date is not listed on her website.

O'Connor added that she would pull out only if there is no financial cost, pointing out that she is the sole breadwinner for her four children.

"No one should assume musicians can afford not to work. Neither should anyone assume we can afford to pay the legal costs involved in pulling out of shows," she wrote.

O'Connor criticized supporters of both the Palestinians and of Israel.

"I do not appreciate being bullied by anyone on either side of this debate any more than I appreciate not being properly informed by my booking agent of the potential ramifications of accepting work in war zones," she wrote.

It is not the first time that an O'Connor concert in Israel has been contentious. She canceled a planned concert in Jerusalem in 1997, following right-wing protests against her participation, legal action and death threats.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.599464
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on June 18, 2014, 10:31:12 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 14, 2014, 09:47:04 PM
In the past hour, several airstrikes have rocked the Gaza Strip. No injuries reported at this stage

Meanwhile in Iraq...
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 18, 2014, 10:50:53 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on June 18, 2014, 10:31:12 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 14, 2014, 09:47:04 PM
In the past hour, several airstrikes have rocked the Gaza Strip. No injuries reported at this stage

Meanwhile in Iraq...
Meanwhile in Roscommon nobody is bombed. Why does Gaza get so much punishment ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on June 18, 2014, 05:03:47 PM
If Palestine became an independent and self sufficient Nation their is no doubt whatsoever it would quickly develop into a long and bloody Civil War.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 18, 2014, 05:20:45 PM
Now israel wants to sedate and then forcefeed palestinian prisoners on hunger strike.
Jewish ethics v 2.0.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 18, 2014, 08:24:18 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 18, 2014, 08:49:37 AM
Sinead O'Connor changes mind about performing in Israel

Singer Sinead O'Connor is attempting to back out of a scheduled performance in Israel, saying that she was unaware pro-Palestinian groups had called on her to boycott Israel.

"I was not informed by my booking agent and was unaware myself, that a boycott of Israel had been requested by the Palestinian people," O'Connor wrote in a statement published Friday on her website and later removed.

"I agreed to perform having been unaware any such boycott had been requested. Had I been aware I would not have agreed to perform."

The Irish singer is scheduled to play in Caesarea on September 11. The concert date is not listed on her website.

O'Connor added that she would pull out only if there is no financial cost, pointing out that she is the sole breadwinner for her four children.

"No one should assume musicians can afford not to work. Neither should anyone assume we can afford to pay the legal costs involved in pulling out of shows," she wrote.

O'Connor criticized supporters of both the Palestinians and of Israel.

"I do not appreciate being bullied by anyone on either side of this debate .
any more than I appreciate not being properly informed by my booking agent of the potential ramifications of accepting work in war zones," she wrote

It is not the first time that an O'Connor concert in Israel has been contentious. She canceled a planned concert in Jerusalem in 1997, following right-wing protests against her participation, legal action and death threats.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.599464

I hope you learn some lessons from the bit that is bolded. It is the bullying and intimidation of self-righteous zealots like you that alienates people.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 18, 2014, 08:39:46 PM
Asking jews to stand up for human rights is antisemitic. How did that happen?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 18, 2014, 10:10:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 18, 2014, 08:39:46 PM
Asking jews to stand up for human rights is antisemitic. How did that happen?

No,willfully ignoring clear examples of jews standing up for human rights and constantly demonizing them is anti-semitic. It is the constant selectivity and different standard for jews that is a clear characteristic of an anti-semite.

You yourself continuously post on mondoweiss.org which positions itself as having a "progressive jewish perspective" and is extremely critical of Israel (eventhough plenty of actual progressive jews would take issue with a lot of what is posted on that site). You continuously quote from Haaretz which is a leading Israeli newspaper. Everybody (rightly) criticizes Isareli policy toward Palestinians yet you continually spam us with this manufactured reality of yours where we are all, apparently, oblivious to what is going on in Israel/Palestine (and the middle east in general) and that we need to be educated by yourself and GHD. Why don't you post some Hamas or Fatah articles that are self-critical for a change...just for a sense of balance like.....I'd wager that you'll have a bit of trouble finding them .........::)

Despite posting freely on that site , despite quoting all those articles you show no compromize, no give, not a smidgen of good will. In 13 years it has been one way traffic ..you quote Israeli/jewish criticism of Israel then turn around and rail against hasbara and bots and blah, blah, blah. 

You are a joke.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 19, 2014, 01:35:47 AM
..and , just to illustrate the two faced nature of Seafoid, he quotes haaretz incessantly on gaaboard yet dismisses it as  "a joke" elsewhere.

QuoteSeafoid says
June 18, 2014 at 10:10 am   
Ha'aretz is such a joke

ISRAEL NEWS
West Bank kidnapping
World Cup 2014
Gay Pride

The love the gays but they despise straight Palestinians. And they watch soccer to switch off . Palestinians can't ever switch off, of course.

He seems to have a problem with Israeli respect for differing sexual orientation as well.

He is a very intolerant chap isn't he ?


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 20, 2014, 03:58:23 PM
Since the 3 illegal settlers went missing last week, Israel have been hell bent on making life as difficult as possible for the Palestinians.

3 Palestinian youths have been killed, including a 14 year old boy today.

They have raided 1150 "locations," including homes, charities, universities, and offices, and detained 330 Palestinians, out of which 240 were affiliated with Hamas

More settlements have been announced, and while the world knows all about the 3 squatters, nobody will hardly hear about these 3 Palestinians that have been murdered by terrorists who claim to be "Gods Chosen Ones".

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=706357
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 04:04:26 PM
The disappearance of those 3 kids is above all an embarrassment for the Israeli Army.
It looks like they wanted to come down hard on Hamas for a while.

But they have no answers to the big question- what are they going to do with the Palestinians ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 04:31:48 PM
Hey Dixie

Don't forget to say something positive about Israel.
Maybe the fellas who do the torturing are very nice to their wives.

http://www.dailycamera.com/guest-opinions/ci_25980615/israel-prizes-expansion-over-peace

"For leaders to obstruct peace, refuse to comply with international law and fail to negotiate in good faith, they first must succeed in misleading their loyalists.
The real conflict for any who ignore or deny documented history is not Israel versus a hostile world. The real conflict is the inability to integrate the hard-to-believe but inescapable awareness of Israel's inhumane treatment of non-Jews with unquestioned loyalty to the Jewish state. One consideration recognizes Israel's dark side. The other denies the dark side exists.""


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 20, 2014, 07:21:40 PM
If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on June 20, 2014, 07:45:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 07:21:40 PM
If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

Desperate I'd say. And similar to republicans throughout the troubles.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 20, 2014, 08:59:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 07:21:40 PM
If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 20, 2014, 09:21:47 PM
"They stole my land, burnt my olive trees, destroyed my house, took my water, imprisoned my father, killed my mother, starved us all, humiliated us all. But I am to blame : I shot a rocket back. So they stole more of my land, burnt my olive trees, destroyed my house, took my water, bombed my country..."

(https://www.philosophyfootball.com/product_images/pimg4961644291fcf_front)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:42:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 20, 2014, 08:59:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 07:21:40 PM
If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

We know what Israel's leadership is. History is littered with regimes that revel in slaughter.

However if I fire a pointless rocket, knowing that my own will die as a result, I am no hero and no freedom fighter. And I am certainly not standing up for what is right, quite the opposite. I am exactly the same as my oppressor.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:42:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 20, 2014, 08:59:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 07:21:40 PM
If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

We know what Israel's leadership is. History is littered with regimes that revel in slaughter.

However if I fire a pointless rocket, knowing that my own will die as a result, I am no hero and no freedom fighter. And I am certainly not standing up for what is right, quite the opposite. I am exactly the same as my oppressor.
Marek Edelman would probably have disagreed.
It's very hard to come up with simple answers fighting regimes that don't give a shit about rights. 
Part of the problem in the occupied territories is that there is no law for Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:42:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 20, 2014, 08:59:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 07:21:40 PM
If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

We know what Israel's leadership is. History is littered with regimes that revel in slaughter.

However if I fire a pointless rocket, knowing that my own will die as a result, I am no hero and no freedom fighter. And I am certainly not standing up for what is right, quite the opposite. I am exactly the same as my oppressor.
Marek Edelman would probably have disagreed.
It's very hard to come up with simple answers fighting regimes that don't give a shit about rights. 
Part of the problem in the occupied territories is that there is no law for Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:42:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 20, 2014, 08:59:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 07:21:40 PM
If I am a Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, knowing it is likely to trigger a disproportionate,  murderous, response against my own people, what does that make me?

To Israeli's you would be a terrorist. To Palestinians a resistance fighter who would be treated a a hero for fighting back and standing up for what is right.

We know what Israel's leadership is. History is littered with regimes that revel in slaughter.

However if I fire a pointless rocket, knowing that my own will die as a result, I am no hero and no freedom fighter. And I am certainly not standing up for what is right, quite the opposite. I am exactly the same as my oppressor.
Marek Edelman would probably have disagreed.
It's very hard to come up with simple answers fighting regimes that don't give a shit about rights. 
Part of the problem in the occupied territories is that there is no law for Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. , other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?
I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

"It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians"

Agreed. But nothing has. What would you say to them? Do what you are told and you'll get.. what ?
Like that Donegal fella said , they will be remembered by their people.
Maybe they are a suicide cult. Would you blame them ? 

Edelman was very impressive too. It's a pity Judaism didn't learn from his insight.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 20, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?
I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 20, 2014, 11:46:13 PM
Stop the weasel words Seafoid and just say what you really think.....

Quoteseafoid October 29, 2010 at 12:27 pm    
link to countercurrents.org
They will do anything to suppress dissent. Israel will have to be destroyed.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 12:20:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?
I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 21, 2014, 12:24:19 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 12:20:26 AM
While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have

What a ridiculous statement. You really are an idiot of the highest order. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 21, 2014, 12:44:57 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 12:20:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?
I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

I doubt it.

You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies.

Being in the right does not justify every response to those who are in the wrong.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 02:07:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2014, 12:44:57 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 12:20:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?
I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

I doubt it.

You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies.

Being in the right does not justify every response to those who are in the wrong.

Again I will ask. What should they do? No rockets are been fired in the West Bank and look what is happening there?

60+ Palestinians murdered in the past 10 months
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 03:23:09 AM
Another big victory for BDS tonight....

In 'turning-point' vote, Presbyterians divest from occupation-linked corporations


Nearly 30 years after it divested from corporations complicit in South African apartheid, the Presbyterian Church voted 310-303 to divest from three corporations involved with the Israeli military and its occupation.  The vote means that $21 million of Presbyterian stock in Caterpillar, Hewlett Packard and Motorola Solutions will be divested.

The extraordinarily close vote (51% to 49% of delegates) came after an intense hours-long debate that featured emotional pleas on all sides.

"It hurts me to know that we invest in the tearing apart of Palestinian lives," said Emma Warman, a youth delegate, before the vote took place.  The advisory voters, including the youth delegates, overwhelmingly recommended a positive vote for divestment.

This close vote came two years after another close vote that went in the opposite direction.  In 2012, the Presbyterian Church rejected divestment by just two votes.

"After a decade of corporate engagement with Caterpillar, Hewlett-Packard, and Motorola Solutions, these companies have failed to modify their behavior and continue to profit from Israeli human rights abuses and non-peaceful pursuits," said Rev. Dr. Walt Davis in a statement released by the Israel/Palestine Mission Network, a Presbyterian group that supported divestment.  "This is a historic vote and the culmination of a long and deliberate internal process within the church."

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/presbyterians-divestment-afternoon.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 21, 2014, 06:53:08 AM
http://forward.com/articles/200455/rick-jacobs-asks-presbyterians-to-meet-with-netany/?

"The document, which is being sold through your online church store, is a vicious attack on Judaism, the Jewish people and the State of Israel,"

That's the line of defence of Israel. If you support Palestinian rights you hate Jews.
It's going to be a mess. It has the potential to be worse than the fall of apartheid in South Africa because Judaism is in the mix.
And the more isolated Israel becomes, the more extreme its policies.

The Presbyterians decided to divest anyway. 
I bet it will end up in a Jewish civil war between young Jews who see the moral disconnect and their elders.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 09:14:23 AM

Israel orders dismantling of camera that captured murder of Palestinian boys


On 15 May, Israeli security forces fatally shot Nadim Nuwara, 17, and Muhammad Abu al-Thahir, 16, at a demonstration near the Ofer military prison in the occupied West Bank village of Beitunia. Four days after the killings, on 19 May, Defence for Children International-Palestine (DCI-Palestine) released footage from Zayed's security cameras that showed the boys walking slowly in a calm scene when they were shot.

Now the Israeli military has ordered Fakher Zayed, the man whose security cameras captured the closed circuit TV footage that shows Israeli security forces shooting the two teenage boys, to dismantle his cameras within 24 hours or face legal proceedings/ (The footage and an earlier interview with Zayed can be seen in the DCI-Palestine video above.)

The Israeli military had already confiscated Zayed's recording equipment on 22 May, and on 13 June seized all other recording equipment in the area — such as that owned by other shopkeepers. They now demand that Zayed remove his security camera as well, from which a live stream can be watched but not saved for subsequent viewing or examination

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/israel-orders-dismantling-camera-captured-murder-palestinian-boys
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 21, 2014, 09:43:04 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 02:07:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2014, 12:44:57 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 12:20:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?
I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

I doubt it.

You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies.

Being in the right does not justify every response to those who are in the wrong.

Again I will ask. What should they do? No rockets are been fired in the West Bank and look what is happening there?

60+ Palestinians murdered in the past 10 months

World public opinion is the only weapon they have and that is a notoriously unreliable one. But if used properly it can work, like it did in South Africa.

A rocket versus an F-16 isn't a contest. But only people already sympathetic to Palestinians see that and that includes most Irish people. Unfortunately most of the rest of the world accepts, to some degree, the tit-for-tat nature of the struggle promulgated by Israel. It also adds to the myth that Palestine is as much about Islamic Militancy as it about freedom for Palestinians, this is especially the case when you see where the rockets come from.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 09:52:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2014, 09:43:04 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 02:07:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2014, 12:44:57 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 12:20:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 20, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?
I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

I doubt it.

You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies.

Being in the right does not justify every response to those who are in the wrong.

Again I will ask. What should they do? No rockets are been fired in the West Bank and look what is happening there?

60+ Palestinians murdered in the past 10 months

World public opinion is the only weapon they have and that is a notoriously unreliable one. But if used properly it can work, like it did in South Africa.

A rocket versus an F-16 isn't a contest. But only people already sympathetic to Palestinians see that and that includes most Irish people. Unfortunately most of the rest of the world accepts, to some degree, the tit-for-tat nature of the struggle promulgated by Israel. It also adds to the myth that Palestine is as much about Islamic Militancy as it about freedom for Palestinians, this is especially the case when you see where the rockets come from.

Any thoughts on what they should do, apart from not firing rockets?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 21, 2014, 10:29:13 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 09:14:23 AM

Israel orders dismantling of camera that captured murder of Palestinian boys


On 15 May, Israeli security forces fatally shot Nadim Nuwara, 17, and Muhammad Abu al-Thahir, 16, at a demonstration near the Ofer military prison in the occupied West Bank village of Beitunia. Four days after the killings, on 19 May, Defence for Children International-Palestine (DCI-Palestine) released footage from Zayed's security cameras that showed the boys walking slowly in a calm scene when they were shot.

Now the Israeli military has ordered Fakher Zayed, the man whose security cameras captured the closed circuit TV footage that shows Israeli security forces shooting the two teenage boys, to dismantle his cameras within 24 hours or face legal proceedings/ (The footage and an earlier interview with Zayed can be seen in the DCI-Palestine video above.)

The Israeli military had already confiscated Zayed's recording equipment on 22 May, and on 13 June seized all other recording equipment in the area — such as that owned by other shopkeepers. They now demand that Zayed remove his security camera as well, from which a live stream can be watched but not saved for subsequent viewing or examination

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/israel-orders-dismantling-camera-captured-murder-palestinian-boys
They have been confiscating surveillance video equipment in the West Bank all week. They don't want any video evidence of their crimes.

Michael Oren told CNN that the man shown killed on video recently didn't die.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 21, 2014, 10:54:30 AM
"You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies."

I agree about the futility. There is much international support for Palestinian rights but not where it counts.
I don't expect anything to change until Israel is forced to amend its behaviour. And the only way to do that is via sanctions.
It's a very sad situation for the Jewish religion. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 11:18:29 AM
Palestinian dies of heart attack as Israeli troops raid home

An elderly Palestinian man died early Saturday of heart attack during a heated argument with Israeli troops who broke into his house in the village of Haris in Salfit district in the northern West Bank.

Palestinian security sources said Israeli soldiers refused to allow family members of Ali Abed Jabir to take him to hospital for treatment after he suffered a heart attack and eventually died at home. The victim was in his 60s.

The sources explained that dozens of Israeli soldiers stormed Haris village, ransacked several homes and assaulted residents.

Jawad Muhammad Dawood suffered a hand fracture after Israeli troops brutally attacked him and his brother Jawdat during a raid on their home. In addition, seven family members inhaled tear gas after Israeli forces fired a canister in their home.

No detentions were reported in the village.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=706454
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 21, 2014, 11:52:17 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 09:52:45 AM
Any thoughts on what they should do, apart from not firing rockets?

one thing they can do is stop religious fundamentalists and anti-semites hijacking their cause.

Seafoid himself put it best

Quoteseafoid December 4, 2010 at 4:48 pm    
Because without antisemitism there is no point to Zionism.

no anti-semites and the main justification for Zionism goes away. You and Seafoid are the problem. The root cause
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 21, 2014, 12:12:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 09:52:45 AM
Any thoughts on what they should do, apart from not firing rockets?

That would be a very good start.

Better still have the Palestinians announce it themselves, rather than have Israel claim they stopped it. As Seafoid said, they have a lot of support around the world while I believe that support for Israel's military campaign is slowly dwindling. That mightn't be happening quick enough for some, but Israel won't be able to continue the slaughter for long in the absence of the ability to point to retaliation.

The Palestinians could also do with a leader who appeals to the outside world and who's CV can resist the inevitable smears. I'm sure yourself and Seafoid would be able to name worthy people but it doesn't matter if the wider world doesn't both know who they are and can't relate to them and their campaign - Mandela for example. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 21, 2014, 04:26:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2014, 12:12:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 21, 2014, 09:52:45 AM
Any thoughts on what they should do, apart from not firing rockets?

That would be a very good start.

Better still have the Palestinians announce it themselves, rather than have Israel claim they stopped it. As Seafoid said, they have a lot of support around the world while I believe that support for Israel's military campaign is slowly dwindling. That mightn't be happening quick enough for some, but Israel won't be able to continue the slaughter for long in the absence of the ability to point to retaliation.

The Palestinians could also do with a leader who appeals to the outside world and who's CV can resist the inevitable smears. I'm sure yourself and Seafoid would be able to name worthy people but it doesn't matter if the wider world doesn't both know who they are and can't relate to them and their campaign - Mandela for example.

Most of the would be leaders are in prison.
I think Abbas will go soon and that he will be replaced by someone who will bring Israel to the International Criminal Court.
Israel is very comfortable with rockets from Gaza but it is very uncomfortable with international law.

I would be concerned if I was Israeli. The leadership have no plan B other than to accelerate Jewish settlement of the West Bank.
Calling the world anti-Semitic doesn't seem to work as well as it used to.

Lashing Judaism to the settlement project as the head of the US Reform Judaism congregation did yesterday talking to the US Presbyterian church is ultra dangerous.
Judaism is way better than apartheid.



 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 21, 2014, 04:33:29 PM
Here is an interesting development

Companies are already obliged to ensure they aren't involved in any dealings that result in gross human rights violations. They can now be held criminally liable as principals or accessories whenever they do.

Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has involved looting over a very long time span.
Very little of what Israel does in the Occupied Territories is legal.

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Business/OPTStatement6June2014.pdf

Applicable legal framework – situations of conflict and the OPT
All States are at all times bound to respect, protect, promote and fulfil the human rights enshrined in
international legal instruments to which they are parties, as well as those human rights which are
considered part of customary international law. In international conflicts, international humanitarian
law — including the treaties to which a State is party and those provisions of international
humanitarian law which have become customary international law — also applies. A situation of
military occupation is considered to be a conflict situation even if active hostilities may have ceased or
occur periodically or sporadically.5 A situation of conflict does not release States from their human
rights obligations – these obligations continue to exist alongside international humanitarian law and
provide complimentary and mutually reinforcing protection.

As noted by the International Committee of the Red Cross, humanitarian law standards also apply to
business enterprises in situations of armed conflict.6 International humanitarian law provides some
protection to business personnel7 and assets8 but also imposes obligations on managers and staff not to
breach international humanitarian law, and provides for exposure of individual personnel and the
enterprise to the risk of criminal or civil liability in the event that they do so.9
The situation in the OPT is one of military occupation.10 As the occupying power, Israel is bound by
international human rights law and international humanitarian law.11 This is on account of its

ratification of international human rights and international humanitarian law treaties and also on
account of the fact that some of these standards reflect customary international law or represent
peremptory norms of international law. Article 49 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the
Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War prohibits the occupying power from transferring parts
of its own civilian population into the territory that it occupies.12 The International Court of Justice,13
the United Nations General Assembly14 the Security Council15 and other international mechanisms
have affirmed that the settlements are illegal under international law. United Nations human rights
treaty bodies have also called on Israel to cease all construction of settlements.16
The Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights in situations of conflict
The Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights apply to all States and to all business
enterprises, both transnational and others, regardless of their size, sector, location, ownership and
structure.17 The Guiding Principles are based on existing obligations and responsibilities under
international human rights law – they do not create new international law obligations, nor do they limit
or undermine any legal obligations with regard to human rights that a State may have undertaken or to
which it is subject under international law.18

The Guiding Principles are applicable in all operational contexts,19 including in situations of conflict.
The Guiding Principles explicitly recognize that conflict-affected areas present heightened risks of
business involvement in human rights abuses, including "gross human rights abuses",20 and contain
specific provisions for preventing and addressing human rights impact of business operating in conflict
affected areas. While the Guiding Principles do not explicitly address the situations of occupation, an
area under occupation falls within the term "conflict-affected area" in the Guiding Principles.
The Guiding Principles further recognize that in conflict-affected areas, the "host" State may be unable
to protect human rights adequately owing to a lack of effective control, or it may itself be engaged in
human rights abuses.21 Where transnational corporations are involved, their "home" States therefore
have crucial roles to play in assisting both those corporations and host States to ensure that businesses

are not involved with human rights abuse, while neighbouring States can provide important additional
support.22
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 22, 2014, 01:51:41 PM
Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas accused Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu of hypocrisy regarding the  3 Palestinians murdered by Israel in the last week .
Here's the reply

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxTgRGiaaQ

Harder and harder to sell shoot to kill to the world. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 22, 2014, 08:59:02 PM
Seafood - why don't you tell the Israelis where the missing teenagers are, sure you know everything that's going on over there.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 22, 2014, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 22, 2014, 08:59:02 PM
Seafood - why don't you tell the Israelis where the missing teenagers are, sure you know everything that's going on over there.

This kidnapping emphasises my point.

Palestinians kidnap 3 Israelis, they murder dozens of Palestinians in retaliation. The kidnappers are no heroes to any sane person.

Likewise the guff from Gerry Adams this weekend. No Guildford bomb - no Guildford 4 or Maguire 7 - or other miseries inflicted by the Brits.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 22, 2014, 09:54:37 PM
Muppet - you might find you are waiting a while for old Seafood and dicksie to agree the the kidnapping is wrong just as is the ridiculous heavy handed Israeli response.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 22, 2014, 09:54:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 22, 2014, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 22, 2014, 08:59:02 PM
Seafood - why don't you tell the Israelis where the missing teenagers are, sure you know everything that's going on over there.

This kidnapping emphasises my point.

Palestinians kidnap 3 Israelis, they murder dozens of Palestinians in retaliation. The kidnappers are no heroes to any sane person.

Likewise the guff from Gerry Adams this weekend. No Guildford bomb - no Guildford 4 or Maguire 7 - or other miseries inflicted by the Brits.
It looks like the Israelis had the plans to trash the West Bank and arrest hundreds of Hamas people in the works well before whatever day the 3 settlers went missing.
Israel wants to kick Hamas out of the Palestinian unity county council.
They probably don't give a f**k about the 3 settlers.
I think they might have got lost on the way to the Cavan-Monaghan Ulster semi final.
Otherwise we don't know where they are or who took them. 

Regarding how Palestinians should behave, Israel offers them a choice of apartheid or ethnic cleansing. No rights.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 22, 2014, 10:15:32 PM
I suspect you are right, but why give Netanyahu the easy propaganda to silence any critics among the reasonable Israelis?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 22, 2014, 10:26:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 22, 2014, 10:15:32 PM
I suspect you are right, but why give Netanyahu the easy propaganda to silence any critics among the reasonable Israelis?
Israel has poured over 100 billion dollars into the Jewish settlements, Muppet. They are not interested in a Palestinian State.
Why would they have spent all that money in order to walk away now ?
This latest violence was planned ages ago, I bet.
The Palestinians are supposed to accept whatever scraps Israel offers them.

Israel was stupid to tell the world it was getting into a peace process in 1991. They had no intention of freeing the Palestinians but they did raise expectations in Europe and now they can't explain why they are so opposed to a Palestinian state.

When Arafat was alive they said he was an obstacle to peace.
Mahmoud Abbas bent over backward to fulfil Israel's demands since 2005 and they wouldn't even negotiate with him. Israel is shot through with bad faith .

   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 22, 2014, 10:38:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 22, 2014, 10:26:33 PM
Israel is shot through with bad faith .
You have a lot in common with them so. Two sides of the same coin so to speak.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 23, 2014, 03:27:02 PM
2 Palestinians killed in overnight raids in Ramallah and Nablus

Two Palestinians were shot and killed during clashes in Ramallah and Nablus overnight Sunday, as Israeli forces continued a massive search operation across the West Bank for three missing Israeli teenagers.

The killings mark a major upsurge in Israeli violence amid one of the largest deployments since the Second Intifada, with at least five Palestinians killed in the last week and more than 370 arrested.

Ahmad Said Suod Khalid, 27, in al-Ein refugee camp in Nablus and Mahmoud Ismail Atallah Tarifi, 30, in Ramallah were killed as locals protested raids in those areas early Sunday morning.

In al-Ein refugee camp, Israeli soldiers fired four gunshots at Khalid while he was headed to a mosque for dawn prayer.

According to eyewitnesses, the soldiers asked Khalid to go back home, but he refused and insisted on walking to the mosque. At this point, a soldier pointed his rifle at him and shot him several times from point-blank range.

The victim's body was subsequently taken to Rafidia Hospital in Nablus.

The Israeli military said in a statement that the victim "was approaching them in a threatening manner" at the time he was shot, and that they "called on the suspect to stop and after he failed to comply they fired warning shots in the air."

Israeli soldiers then "fired towards the suspect."

"Initial inquiry suggests that the suspect was mentally unstable," the statement said, adding that "the incident is currently being investigated."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=706668
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 23, 2014, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 23, 2014, 03:27:02 PM
2 Palestinians killed in overnight raids in Ramallah and Nablus

Two Palestinians were shot and killed during clashes in Ramallah and Nablus overnight Sunday, as Israeli forces continued a massive search operation across the West Bank for three missing Israeli teenagers.

The killings mark a major upsurge in Israeli violence amid one of the largest deployments since the Second Intifada, with at least five Palestinians killed in the last week and more than 370 arrested.

Ahmad Said Suod Khalid, 27, in al-Ein refugee camp in Nablus and Mahmoud Ismail Atallah Tarifi, 30, in Ramallah were killed as locals protested raids in those areas early Sunday morning.

In al-Ein refugee camp, Israeli soldiers fired four gunshots at Khalid while he was headed to a mosque for dawn prayer.

According to eyewitnesses, the soldiers asked Khalid to go back home, but he refused and insisted on walking to the mosque. At this point, a soldier pointed his rifle at him and shot him several times from point-blank range.

The victim's body was subsequently taken to Rafidia Hospital in Nablus.

The Israeli military said in a statement that the victim "was approaching them in a threatening manner" at the time he was shot, and that they "called on the suspect to stop and after he failed to comply they fired warning shots in the air."

Israeli soldiers then "fired towards the suspect."

"Initial inquiry suggests that the suspect was mentally unstable," the statement said, adding that "the incident is currently being investigated."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=706668
They shot and killed a mentally handicapped man.
Very courageous of the soldier.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 23, 2014, 05:31:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 23, 2014, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 23, 2014, 03:27:02 PM
2 Palestinians killed in overnight raids in Ramallah and Nablus

Two Palestinians were shot and killed during clashes in Ramallah and Nablus overnight Sunday, as Israeli forces continued a massive search operation across the West Bank for three missing Israeli teenagers.

The killings mark a major upsurge in Israeli violence amid one of the largest deployments since the Second Intifada, with at least five Palestinians killed in the last week and more than 370 arrested.

Ahmad Said Suod Khalid, 27, in al-Ein refugee camp in Nablus and Mahmoud Ismail Atallah Tarifi, 30, in Ramallah were killed as locals protested raids in those areas early Sunday morning.

In al-Ein refugee camp, Israeli soldiers fired four gunshots at Khalid while he was headed to a mosque for dawn prayer.

According to eyewitnesses, the soldiers asked Khalid to go back home, but he refused and insisted on walking to the mosque. At this point, a soldier pointed his rifle at him and shot him several times from point-blank range.

The victim's body was subsequently taken to Rafidia Hospital in Nablus.

The Israeli military said in a statement that the victim "was approaching them in a threatening manner" at the time he was shot, and that they "called on the suspect to stop and after he failed to comply they fired warning shots in the air."

Israeli soldiers then "fired towards the suspect."

"Initial inquiry suggests that the suspect was mentally unstable," the statement said, adding that "the incident is currently being investigated."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=706668
They shot and killed a mentally handicapped man.
Very courageous of the soldier.

Gods chosen ones
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 23, 2014, 05:45:12 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 23, 2014, 05:31:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 23, 2014, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 23, 2014, 03:27:02 PM
2 Palestinians killed in overnight raids in Ramallah and Nablus

Two Palestinians were shot and killed during clashes in Ramallah and Nablus overnight Sunday, as Israeli forces continued a massive search operation across the West Bank for three missing Israeli teenagers.

The killings mark a major upsurge in Israeli violence amid one of the largest deployments since the Second Intifada, with at least five Palestinians killed in the last week and more than 370 arrested.

Ahmad Said Suod Khalid, 27, in al-Ein refugee camp in Nablus and Mahmoud Ismail Atallah Tarifi, 30, in Ramallah were killed as locals protested raids in those areas early Sunday morning.

In al-Ein refugee camp, Israeli soldiers fired four gunshots at Khalid while he was headed to a mosque for dawn prayer.

According to eyewitnesses, the soldiers asked Khalid to go back home, but he refused and insisted on walking to the mosque. At this point, a soldier pointed his rifle at him and shot him several times from point-blank range.

The victim's body was subsequently taken to Rafidia Hospital in Nablus.

The Israeli military said in a statement that the victim "was approaching them in a threatening manner" at the time he was shot, and that they "called on the suspect to stop and after he failed to comply they fired warning shots in the air."

Israeli soldiers then "fired towards the suspect."

"Initial inquiry suggests that the suspect was mentally unstable," the statement said, adding that "the incident is currently being investigated."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=706668
They shot and killed a mentally handicapped man.
Very courageous of the soldier.

Gods chosen ones
Godless

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.600407
"In Israel there is a special sensitivity to kidnappings, as we saw in the Gilad Shalit case, and as we are seeing now. But the response should be carefully considered: This is a serious terror attack that requires a harsh response, and those responsible must be found
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 23, 2014, 05:46:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 22, 2014, 10:26:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 22, 2014, 10:15:32 PM
I suspect you are right, but why give Netanyahu the easy propaganda to silence any critics among the reasonable Israelis?
Israel has poured over 100 billion dollars into the Jewish settlements, Muppet. They are not interested in a Palestinian State.
Why would they have spent all that money in order to walk away now ?
This latest violence was planned ages ago, I bet.
The Palestinians are supposed to accept whatever scraps Israel offers them.

Israel was stupid to tell the world it was getting into a peace process in 1991. They had no intention of freeing the Palestinians but they did raise expectations in Europe and now they can't explain why they are so opposed to a Palestinian state.

When Arafat was alive they said he was an obstacle to peace.
Mahmoud Abbas bent over backward to fulfil Israel's demands since 2005 and they wouldn't even negotiate with him. Israel is shot through with bad faith .



Of course they won't 'walk away'. International pressure will end it just like it ended apartheid in South Africa. What wont end it is an unwinnable war.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 23, 2014, 10:22:01 PM
No doubt the UN will come down like a tonne of bricks on Israel.....


Palestine seeks UN Security Council meeting to stop Israeli 'aggression'

The Palestinian leadership has been communicating frantically with several parties to convene an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council and put an end to the "ongoing Israeli oppressive aggression" and protect the Palestinian people. The Palestinian Authority (PA) also announced that it will refer to various international organisations and authorities in this regard.

In a statement published on Sunday by the official Palestinian news agency "Wafa", the PA condemned what it described as "the collective punishment" imposed by Israeli occupation forces in all Palestinian territories with its "brutal aggression".

The PA noted that "the Israeli aggression has been taking place for several days under the pretext of searching for three missing settlers". At least six Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis during the "search" campaign. "Homes have been violated, hundreds have been arrested and many institutions and organisations, including universities, have been stormed," said the PA statement. "The Israeli government is pushing the situation towards more crisis and an explosion."

Stressing that the "aggression will not achieve its objectives", the PA insisted that it will instead only lead to the people of Palestine holding ever more firmly to their rights. "This Israeli arrogance will not prevent the determination of our people to achieve our legitimate national goals, including freedom and independence. In addition, it will not impair the strength and rooting of our unity goals, in the face of this onslaught that aims at the destruction of our national project."

The Israeli army is carrying out a widespread operation in the occupied West Bank under the pretext of searching for three Israeli settlers who went missing on Thursday June 12 from the settlement of Gush Etzion, north of Hebron. Even though the illegal settlement is in an area controlled by Israel, it holds the Palestinian Authority responsible for the settlers' safety. Around 400 Palestinians have been arrested, many of them senior officials of Hamas in the West Bank.

No Palestinian entity has claimed responsibility for the kidnapping of the settlers, although Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has accused Hamas of carrying out the operation. Hamas rejects the Israeli allegations.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/12299-palestine-seeks-un-security-council-meeting-to-stop-israeli-aggression
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 23, 2014, 11:03:11 PM
Uncle Sam protects the monsters once again at the UN....

UN Security Council fails to agree on statement on Palestinian deaths

The UN Security Council has failed to agree on a statement that would have deplored the deaths of Palestinians in Israeli operations following the disappearance of three Israeli teenagers.

Russia's UN Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, the current council president, told reporters he proposed the press statement after listening to a Palestinian appeal for council action, but one council member wanted stronger language and one didn't want any reference to Israel.

Diplomats said Jordan insisted that "deploring" wasn't strong enough and U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power said any language directly criticizing Israel would be "a red line" for the Americans. The diplomats spoke on condition of anonymity because the consultations were closed.

UN political chief Jeffrey Feltman told the council at an earlier open meeting that the Israeli-Palestinian situation "has turned highly volatile."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.600761
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 26, 2014, 01:30:56 PM
78-year-old woman dies of heart attack during Israeli raid

An elderly Palestinian woman died early Thursday after suffering a heart attack during a raid by Israeli soldiers in el-Arrub refugee camp north of Hebron.

Fatima Ismail Issa Rushdi, 78, was evacuated to al-Ahli Hospital in Hebron after she suffered a heart attack.

"Fatima arrived at the emergency department suffering from a sudden heart and lung failure. Doctors tried to resuscitate her twice but there was no response and she was pronounced dead," Dr. Ashraf Zghayyar told Ma'an.

The Israeli raid on the camp started after midnight on Wednesday following a power cut. Soldiers ransacked several homes and handed summons orders to several young men, demanding that they go to an Israeli military center for interrogation.

Youths in the camp clashed with Israeli forces during the raids, with soldiers firing tear gas and rubber-coated bullets, injuring 9 youths.

An Israeli army spokeswoman said Israeli soldiers used riot dispersal means to distance a crowd after Palestinians hurled rocks at an Israeli bus.

When the crowd did not retreat, Israeli soldiers used live fire, she added, with no hits identified.

Red Crescent volunteers told Ma'an that they evacuated over 20 families from their homes after Israeli soldiers fired excessive amounts of tear gas.

Israeli forces detained 13-year-old Sufyan Jaafar Abu Arqub and 14-year-old Jaafar Taha in Dura, while soldiers detained Amir al-Qasrawi in Hebron and confiscated his computer and a security camera installed outside his home.

Six Palestinians have been shot dead by Israeli forces and more than 120 have been injured during a large-scale arrest campaign across the West Bank since the disappearance of three Israeli youths near Gush Etzion on June 12.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=707937
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 26, 2014, 01:39:49 PM
Israel's tyranny over Palestine an abomination

Eamonn McCann – 25 June 2014

At the time of writing searches continue for the three Israeli teenagers missing, presumed kidnapped, in the West Bank. Gil-Ad Shaer (16), Naftali Fraenkel (16), and Eyal Yifrach (19) are reported to have been hitching from school to their homes in Gush Etzion, a group of settlements housing 70,000 Israelis, when snatched by unknown assailants.

Binyamin Netanyahu has sent more than 2,500 soldiers into the West Bank, ostensibly to try to find the missing teenagers, but, in the view of many, also, and at least as importantly, to inflict collective punishment on the Palestinian people and deal a blow to the "unity" Government formed last month by the moderate Fatah and the militant Hamas.

Hamas has denied involvement. Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas said last Saturday: "The missing settlers ... are human beings like us. We must return them to their families."

On NBC's Meet The Press the following day, Netanyahu dismissed Abbas's statement with scorn. He must meet three conditions to demonstrate good faith, said Netanyahu: eschew statements suggesting that Israeli behaviour is one of the reasons (Abbas has never said the only reason) for Palestinians supporting militant groups; back Israel's efforts to capture the kidnappers, and kick Hamas out of the Government.

The Israeli operation has involved the closing off of entire Palestinian areas. House-to-house searches are under way. Agency reports tell that Israeli military vehicles are currently patrolling towns including Hebron, Nablus, Bethlehem, East Jerusalem, Qalqilya, Jenin, Salfit and Ramallah – all in an area regarded by the overwhelming majority of countries, including the countries of the EU, as Palestinian territory.

But there is no debate anywhere in EU or Nato countries about intervention, sanctions, no-fly zones or any other strategy for protecting the people of the area.

Oppression of Palestinians didn't begin with the disappearance of the three teenagers. Geneva-based independent NGO Defence of Children International (DCI) says that 196 Palestinians aged 18 or under were imprisoned in April. Of these, says DCI, around 100 were 15 or under.

DCI says that, of 40 cases they have examined in detail, 34 involved youngsters aged 17 or under. In the 13 years since the second intifada, 1,518 Palestinians under 18 have been killed by Israeli occupation forces: on average, one every three days. In the same period, more than 9,000 Palestinian children have been seized and taken away.

Hanan Ashrawi, spokeswoman for the Palestine Liberation Organisation, said this week: "(The Israelis) are telling the Palestinians, 'We can do whatever we want and get away with it. We can enter Ramallah or anywhere else and kill people with impunity'."

And so they can. Just as they can smear anyone standing up for Palestinian rights as anti-Semitic. In the same way, some years ago campaigners for the release of Irish people wrongfully convicted of terrorist offences were routinely denounced as supporters of the organisations which had actually carried out the atrocities.

Some of us recall being told that, in writing and speaking for the release of Gerry Conlon, Paddy Hill and others, we were belittling the memory of those who had perished at the hands of the IRA in Guildford, Woolwich and Birmingham.

It was against the background of continuing unacceptable Israeli actions that the Presbyterian Church in the US, following the lead of the Quakers, the Mennonites and the pensions board of the United Methodists, voted last Friday to get rid of its stock in Caterpillar, Hewlet-Packard and Motorola Solutions – companies supplying services to the forces of occupation.

Right on cue, the Israeli embassy in Washington characterised the Presbyterian initiative as "driven by hatred of Israel".

Lobbyists for Israel dismissed the role in securing the Presbyterian vote of the Rabbinical Council of Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) – "a fast-growing network of rabbis, cantors and rabbinical students", according to its website.

JVP director Rabbi Alissa Wise had led inter-faith prayers for the success of the resolution. They were, inevitably, described by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee as "self-hating Jews".

These developments reflect the fact that the minority of Israelis and of Jews of the Diaspora who have taken up the fight for Palestinian rights seems to be steadily growing. Therein lies one source of hope for the future.

Every decent person will join in demands for the release and return to their families of Gil-Ad, Naftali and Eyal. In the interests of peace and security for all in the region, we should look then at the wider picture and raise our voices in protest against Israel's abominable treatment of the Palestinian people.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/debateni/blogs/israels-tyranny-over-palestine-an-abomination-30380911.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)

Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on June 27, 2014, 02:48:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)

Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes.

+1

GHD and Seafoid endlessly produce articles which I can only assume are an attempt to highlight the goings on in the Middle East in an attempt to win the hearts and minds of the board members.

They then blow their plan to bits as soon as they provide any narrative of their own.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
So, what the f**k are Seafoid and I doing wrong?

People are been blown to bits and murdered in cold blood, their land stolen, their houses demolished, their children thrown in jails, prisoners been held without charge or trial and going on mass hunger strike in protest, been locked up in the prison that is called Gaza and starved, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I have been there, I have seen with my own eyes the death and destruction, and I post here on the reality of life for Palestinians. However, it seems Seafoid and myself are in the wrong for doing so, and for reporting on it here.

Lets get back to the reality for many. The world cup and Luis Suarez biting someone.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 03:04:16 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)

Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes.

What is nice about this image of 2 Palestinians been evaporated AZ? And what is it about this image and my post that you find hard?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: Franko on June 27, 2014, 02:48:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)

Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes.

+1

GHD and Seafoid endlessly produce articles which I can only assume are an attempt to highlight the goings on in the Middle East in an attempt to win the hearts and minds of the board members.

They then blow their plan to bits as soon as they provide any narrative of their own.

What have I or Seafoid blown to bits Franko? Is it not a US/Israeli airstrike that has blown their plan to bits? Is the photo not real to you? Did I just make this attack up?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 27, 2014, 03:18:11 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
So, what the f**k are Seafoid and I doing wrong?

People are been blown to bits and murdered in cold blood, their land stolen, their houses demolished, their children thrown in jails, prisoners been held without charge or trial and going on mass hunger strike in protest, been locked up in the prison that is called Gaza and starved, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I have been there, I have seen with my own eyes the death and destruction, and I post here on the reality of life for Palestinians. However, it seems Seafoid and myself are in the wrong for doing so, and for reporting on it here.

Lets get back to the reality for many. The world cup and Luis Suarez biting someone.
I have lived there too and seen it up close.
I think the direction that Israel has taken goes against everything Judaism stands for.
Torture is not Jewish. Bombing refugee camps is not Jewish.

If anyone wants to defend Israel, go ahead. They just won't be able to sell their cruelty to the world for much longer.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on June 27, 2014, 03:19:26 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: Franko on June 27, 2014, 02:48:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)

Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes.

+1

GHD and Seafoid endlessly produce articles which I can only assume are an attempt to highlight the goings on in the Middle East in an attempt to win the hearts and minds of the board members.

They then blow their plan to bits as soon as they provide any narrative of their own.

What have I or Seafoid blown to bits Franko? Is it not a US/Israeli airstrike that has blown their plan to bits? Is the photo not real to you? Did I just make this attack up?

You're at it again.  Can't help yourself.

The last three questions you asked are just plain ridiculous and I refuse to answer that sort of crap.

The problem with your original post was the obvious attempt to justify the kidnap of the 3 Israelis because they were 'illegal settlers'. By all means continue with your crusade - but if you ask me you'd be better posting the articles and leaving it at that.  Every time you extend yourself past the copy and paste buttons your hatred and blinkered viewpoint becomes abundantly clear, and it drives people away from the cause you are trying to promote.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on June 27, 2014, 03:25:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 27, 2014, 03:18:11 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
So, what the f**k are Seafoid and I doing wrong?

People are been blown to bits and murdered in cold blood, their land stolen, their houses demolished, their children thrown in jails, prisoners been held without charge or trial and going on mass hunger strike in protest, been locked up in the prison that is called Gaza and starved, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I have been there, I have seen with my own eyes the death and destruction, and I post here on the reality of life for Palestinians. However, it seems Seafoid and myself are in the wrong for doing so, and for reporting on it here.

Lets get back to the reality for many. The world cup and Luis Suarez biting someone.
I have lived there too and seen it up close.
I think the direction that Israel has taken goes against everything Judaism stands for.
Torture is not Jewish. Bombing refugee camps is not Jewish.

If anyone wants to defend Israel, go ahead. They just won't be able to sell their cruelty to the world for much longer.

Is this supposed to suggest that someone here was defending Israel?  Please refer to the last paragraph of my above post to GHD.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 03:47:08 PM
ghd, seafoid, my 'nice' comment was the manner in which ghd referred to the Kidnapped Israelis. The seeming inability to recognise the bad deeds on one side, while calling down hellfire on the others is very hard to read. I'm sure ye don't care whether I find it hard or not, but I like to think I'm relatively moderate, with a good sense of fairness and justice. If you're making it hard for me to listen to ye on this subject, is that a good thing?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 27, 2014, 04:03:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 03:47:08 PM
ghd, seafoid, my 'nice' comment was the manner in which ghd referred to the Kidnapped Israelis. The seeming inability to recognise the bad deeds on one side, while calling down hellfire on the others is very hard to read. I'm sure ye don't care whether I find it hard or not, but I like to think I'm relatively moderate, with a good sense of fairness and justice. If you're making it hard for me to listen to ye on this subject, is that a good thing?
AZ

I think that was crossed wires.
One of the settler mothers was at the UN this week
It is a personal tragedy for her but until there are rights for everyone in Greater Israel I can't see things
changing for the better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1IV_oEqsS0

they start off by saying "today's debate is focused on human rights in the occupied territories but we can't talk about this because 3 Israelis  have been kidnapped."

That is the problem. Some people are more important than others.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 04:13:18 PM
I agree that Israel's behaviour is disgraceful at times. I just think it helps the discussion more when you accept that people are doing disgraceful things in the name of the Palestinian people as well. And this makes the Israelis react in an even more abominable way.

I understand the effort to highlight the disgusting abuses that go on there, and I admire the genuine efforts to help the people, but by ONLY castigating the ill deeds on one side, it just makes it hard to take sometimes.

I am also aware that the deaths caused by Israelis far outnumber the deaths caused by Hamas or any other Palestinian group.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
Can someone please post evidence that the 3 illegal settlers were indeed kidnapped by Palestinians?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 04:53:13 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
Can someone please post evidence that the 3 illegal settlers were indeed kidnapped by Palestinians?

Why do you keep calling them that? Why can't you say the 3 israelis, or the 3 teenagers?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 05:02:05 PM
Quote from: Franko on June 27, 2014, 03:19:26 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: Franko on June 27, 2014, 02:48:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)

Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes.

+1

GHD and Seafoid endlessly produce articles which I can only assume are an attempt to highlight the goings on in the Middle East in an attempt to win the hearts and minds of the board members.

They then blow their plan to bits as soon as they provide any narrative of their own.

What have I or Seafoid blown to bits Franko? Is it not a US/Israeli airstrike that has blown their plan to bits? Is the photo not real to you? Did I just make this attack up?

You're at it again.  Can't help yourself.

The last three questions you asked are just plain ridiculous and I refuse to answer that sort of crap.

The problem with your original post was the obvious attempt to justify the kidnap of the 3 Israelis because they were 'illegal settlers'. By all means continue with your crusade - but if you ask me you'd be better posting the articles and leaving it at that.  Every time you extend yourself past the copy and paste buttons your hatred and blinkered viewpoint becomes abundantly clear, and it drives people away from the cause you are trying to promote.

Franko, under international law, the 3 people who are alleged to have been kidnapped are classed as illegal settlers. Where have I indicated that their supposed abduction is justified? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 05:03:31 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 04:53:13 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
Can someone please post evidence that the 3 illegal settlers were indeed kidnapped by Palestinians?

Why do you keep calling them that? Why can't you say the 3 israelis, or the 3 teenagers?

Because that is what they are AZ. They are illegal settlers as classified under international law. Do you dispute that?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:04:31 PM
No. But they are also 3 teenage kids. It's interesting that you feel the need to use that term I think.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 05:12:50 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:04:31 PM
No. But they are also 3 teenage kids. It's interesting that you feel the need to use that term I think.

AZ, for the past week or so I have been reporting on this supposed abduction by Palestinians (after all, it is Israel who have said it was the Palestinians without any proof), and the subsequent aftermath that has left 10 Palestinians dead. It is very sad indeed that you choose to have a go at me for calling them illegal settlers and refuse to condemn Israel for the brutal murders of 10 people, several of whom are children.

But hey, knock yourself out and have a go at me as it is easier to do than to show some sympathy for those mourning their dead.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:16:56 PM
Where exactly have I refused to condemn the attacks by Israel? Was it when I said -

"I agree that Israel's behaviour is disgraceful at times."

or

"And this makes the Israelis react in an even more abominable way."

or maybe this

"I understand the effort to highlight the disgusting abuses that go on there, and I admire the genuine efforts to help the people"

The problem seems to be that I also feel empathy for human suffering on the other side as well. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 05:18:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:16:56 PM
Where exactly have I refused to condemn the attacks by Israel? Was it when I said -

"I agree that Israel's behaviour is disgraceful at times."

or

"And this makes the Israelis react in an even more abominable way."

or maybe this

"I understand the effort to highlight the disgusting abuses that go on there, and I admire the genuine efforts to help the people"

The problem seems to be that I also feel empathy for human suffering on the other side as well. Sorry about that.

And what did you have to say about the 10 dead?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:21:25 PM
Apologies if it wasn't clear enough. All Israeli air strikes and attacks on innocent Palestinian civilians is an absolute travesty and a disgrace. They, above all else, should know what it means to oppress an entire civilian population.  RIP to all who are killed by cowardly Israeli attacks.

Now, what do you say about Israelis killed by Palestinian attacks?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 05:24:20 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)

Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes.

AZ, this was your response to a horrific murder of 2 Palestinians. Nice is what you called it. How did you expect me to react?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:29:58 PM
Are you for real? I highlighted, in bold, the phrase I was referring to, as is the norm around here. Of course I don't think the attack or the deaths are 'nice'. Do you think I am a sociopath or something?

Jesus christ.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:37:23 PM
I also note you didn't respond to my question, after I answered yours.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 05:40:39 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:21:25 PM
Apologies if it wasn't clear enough. All Israeli air strikes and attacks on innocent Palestinian civilians is an absolute travesty and a disgrace. They, above all else, should know what it means to oppress an entire civilian population.  RIP to all who are killed by cowardly Israeli attacks.

Now, what do you say about Israelis killed by Palestinian attacks?

AZ, if you know anything about me over the years posting on here you will know I totally oppose ANY murder by anyone, whether it is by Israel Palestine or anyone else, or by the death penalty. Murder is wrong in all forms shapes and sizes.

I grew up in a society where I saw my friends and neighbors murdered by state forces and by those who opposed to the state murdering them. Like many others on here, I have been to manys a wake and funeral of those killed.

I am totally opposed to state murder, and having grown up with murders by the British state I am always angry when I see it happening to others. The mothers of those killed in Palestine Iraq Ireland Afghanistan etc etc by the state all share the same pain.

I witnessed the pain at 1st hand here at home, and in Palestine and it makes my angry beyond words to see images like I just posted. That image is no different to the car riddled by bullets and fire in Coagh 20 years ago by the SAS when they murdered 3 neighbours of mine.

So, forgive me if i'm angry at your initial reaction of "Nice" when you replied to that horrific . I know a lot of people here who said the same thing when my neighbours were murdered by the SAS in Coagh all those years ago.

Count yourself lucky that you didn't have to live through that.

Coagh or Gaza, its still the same. State murder is just not acceptable or "Nice"

(http://www.midulstermail.co.uk/webimage/1.5580498.1381588149!/image/2503625134.jpg_gen/derivatives/articleImgDeriv_628px/2503625134.jpg)

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:43:06 PM
The word 'Nice' was aimed at your phrase 'illegal settlers', and you know that full well. Spare me the faux outrage. If you persist in claiming I said the murders were 'nice' then that's just to suit your own agenda. Seafoid and Franko both seem to have had no problem understanding what I meant.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 06:00:23 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:43:06 PM
The word 'Nice' was aimed at your phrase 'illegal settlers', and you know that full well. Spare me the faux outrage. If you persist in claiming I said the murders were 'nice' then that's just to suit your own agenda. Seafoid and Franko both seem to have had no problem understanding what I meant.

Fair enough AZ, but your 1st response to the 10 murders, and the photo of a burnt out car was the word "Nice".

As for the term "Illegal settlers" that is what they are called under international law, and I make no apologies for calling them that.

Plus, there is NO evidence to suggest they were abducted by anyone, never mind Palestinians.

You can call them whatever you want, but that is what they are.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 27, 2014, 06:23:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 05:43:06 PM
The word 'Nice' was aimed at your phrase 'illegal settlers', and you know that full well. Spare me the faux outrage. If you persist in claiming I said the murders were 'nice' then that's just to suit your own agenda. Seafoid and Franko both seem to have had no problem understanding what I meant.

AZ
The settlers  are in the West Bank illegally.
The occupation is illegal. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 06:26:18 PM
(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/s851x315/10353623_10152505941608104_2411841117066757694_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10416581_10152505941618104_8641759451450068794_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10411883_10152505941653104_1171419747684643728_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10407049_10152505941813104_4718250702683782023_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10445456_10152505941793104_1348681971732111229_n.jpg)

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Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 27, 2014, 06:38:18 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.601670

"The EU envoy to Israel Lars Faaborg-Andersen said on Friday that the warnings issued by Spain, Italy and France against doing business with Israeli settlements in the West Bank, in East Jerusalem, and in the Golan Heights point towards the fact that EU member states "are losing their patience with concerns not being treated" by Israel."

Speaking at a seminar organized by the Geneva Initiative of Friday morning, Fabourg-Andersen said the warnings "should not come as a surprise." He added that the precise wording of European Commission's general warning regarding private bodies' economic activity in the settlements is still being hashed out.

"The EU is more consistently implementing existing policy, and taking further steps to disengage from the settlements," said Andersen, adding that if settlement construction continues, additional EU member states will publish similar warnings.

Spain and Italy issued the warnings to their citizens earlier on Friday. The foreign ministries of both countries announced that companies engaging in economic activity in the settlements would be making themselves vulnerable to a series of risks.

According to the announcements made by Spain and Italy, the European Union and its member states do not recognize Israeli rule in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, which were conquered in 1967, and regard the settlements as illegal in international law.
"

they are illegal. It's not a question of nuance
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 07:02:11 PM
I never said they weren't. However, I'd have thought a more human phrase to use would be "the three kidnapped, or missing, teenagers". To each their own, but my point is that ye lads give no sense of empathy with Israeli victims. It's all one way with ye, and that's hard to listen to all the time.

As someone who has sympathy with the Palestinian plight, I'd not have thought you'd be trying to alienate the likes of me, but sure what do I know? I never lived there.

I'm done with this subject now. To have someone pretend that I called the murders 'nice' is beyond the pale.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 07:08:59 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Gods chosen ones, with full US support, are back doing what they do best.

2 more Palestinians blown to bits in Gaza in the past hour, taking the death toll to 10 since the 3 illegal settlers went missing over a week ago.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10480189_659149830821378_5077795084033928404_n.jpg)

Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes.

So, you didn't say nice then?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 07:20:03 PM
Are you being deliberately antagonistic on this or what Dixie? I've said at least 4 times now that I used the word nice in reference to how you described the missing Israelis. If you can't understand that concept, or are calling me a liar, then I can't help you.

For effect, you keep posting my reply, which clearly shows me bolding the phrase. The fact you use the same technique yourself in bolding my word is ironic.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 07:36:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 07:20:03 PM
Are you being deliberately antagonistic on this or what Dixie? I've said at least 4 times now that I used the word nice in reference to how you described the missing Israelis. If you can't understand that concept, or are calling me a liar, then I can't help you.

For effect, you keep posting my reply, which clearly shows me bolding the phrase. The fact you use the same technique yourself in bolding my word is ironic.

AZ, I posted a photo of a bombed out car and 2 dead Palestinians and your 1st reaction is to have a go at me for correctly calling the 3 missing illegal settlers what they are called under international law.

Your use of the word "Nice" as your 1st word in response is what got my back up.

In the past 5 years since I have been posting here on Palestine close to 2,000 Palestinians have been slaughtered by Israel with the full support of the US. 500 of those killed are children.

I have been posting for days now on the alleged disappearance of 3 illegal settlers, the murders of 10 people, injuries to hundreds, and kidnapping of hundreds of Palestinians in retaliation.

In reply to my post and photo, you said this "Nice. I have sympathy for the Palestinian People, and I think the Israeli government are a disgrace, but you really make it hard sometimes."

From that reply you are more bothered by my calling them by their correct name as you are about the deaths of 2 men driving along in their car in Gaza.

If in any way I have offended you by calling illegal settlers illegal settlers, then you have my full and unreserved apology.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 27, 2014, 07:40:09 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the second biggest tragedy to befall the Palestinian people after the occupation of their lands was the hijacking of their cause by anti-semites. The very people that were the root cause of their present situation are now their biggest "defenders". It would be laughable if it were not so tragic.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 07:41:22 PM
Ok. I get you now. And can see why you might think the reply flippant. It wasn't intended to be. I'd assume that all right thinking people would react with disgust to such an attack, and assumed that was taken as read in my case.

I should have said " that's horrific, Israel is a disgrace in the way it conducts these attacks.. By the way, why do you feel the need to refer to the missing teenagers in that manner".

My point still stands in that I feel you and seafoid definitely seem to lack empathy with Israeli victims, but I certainly would not trivialise the treatment the Palestinian people are getting.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 27, 2014, 08:04:17 PM
Lets call a spade a spade. Seafoid and GHD do more than show a lack of empathy, they positively delight in any Israeli deaths/casualties/kidnappings.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 08:13:24 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 07:41:22 PM
Ok. I get you now. And can see why you might think the reply flippant. It wasn't intended to be. I'd assume that all right thinking people would react with disgust to such an attack, and assumed that was taken as read in my case.

I should have said " that's horrific, Israel is a disgrace in the way it conducts these attacks.. By the way, why do you feel the need to refer to the missing teenagers in that manner".

My point still stands in that I feel you and seafoid definitely seem to lack empathy with Israeli victims, but I certainly would not trivialise the treatment the Palestinian people are getting.

Israeli victims? How are they victims? Plus, in the past 5 years as I have already stated, close to 2,000 Palestinians have been murdered. To the best of my knowledge, around 20 Israeli's have been killed in that same time. Some of whom were killed by "friendly fire".

Over 500,000 illegal settlers currently occupy land stolen from Palestine. These are people who feel this is their land because "God gave it to them" and by been Jewish, they have a divine right to occupy this land. Illegally of course. 

The 3 people alleged to have been kidnapped are illegal settlers who illegally occupy this land.

Robert Fisk says that the current Israeli Government and Zionism is no different to what Cromwell did here in Ireland all those years ago. What we are currently witnessing is a repeat of history.

An example of this is Gordon McKnight from Bangor Co down who became a Jew and felt he had more right to this land than those who have lived there for thousands of years.  Check out what he has to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Eh12TG_N0

If you have the time, check out a few of the videos on you tube on how these settlers behave towards the indigenous people and their land.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 27, 2014, 08:36:43 PM
You just don't get it do you ? Pointing out examples of extremist settlers will not stop us pointing out the extremism of your position.
Do I need to post some articles from your friend Mattias Chang or www.barnesreview.org to illustrate that point ?

You are simply the other side of that Gordon McKnight coin. You are just as bad, Just as guilty.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 27, 2014, 08:49:08 PM
Calling dark skinned people spades is racist. Tsk tsk.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 27, 2014, 08:56:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 27, 2014, 08:49:08 PM
Calling dark skinned people spades is racist. Tsk tsk.

You could use a spade as you are really digging there aren't you.

It gives me great pleasure to know I have reduced you to this. Always good to know I have the anti-Semitic bigots on the back foot  :)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 27, 2014, 09:33:44 PM
By the way lads, just so ye all know, Seafoid and GHD's intransigence is not accidental. They are marching to a tune so to speak.

you know those lads that are always shouting at you on the streets of Cork and Dublin with loudspeakers about Zionists and the like ? Well this is a behind the scenes look at what they are like

(background: These lads are extremely political. Lots of extremist republicans, stalinsts...the usual assortment of idiots with a mindset stuck in 1980's  the student union entertainments office etc...anyway, circa 2009 there was a "spilt" with much ensuing comedy gold....)

http://www.david-morrison.org.uk/ipsc/problems-20090918.pdf (http://www.david-morrison.org.uk/ipsc/problems-20090918.pdf)

Anyway, when you've stopped laughing at the pomposity and the hilarious similarities to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE)  there are some serious points to be made

here are some quotes...you will forgive me for using Seafoids trick of quoting selectively.... :)

QuoteWhen individuals volunteer to take up NC positions, they implicitly undertake to advocate in public IPSC policy as determined by IPSC
members, not their own views. In other words, by taking up NC positions, individuals implicitly
accept the possibility that their freedom of speech may be restricted.

i.e. stay on message, repeat ad-nauseum, no straying from the accepted line....sound familiar ?

QuoteWhen I became a Political Officer, I was conscious that, if I
continued doing so, criticism of Fatah by me might be interpreted as criticism of Fatah by the IPSC,
contrary to the established principle that IPSC doesn't take sides in internal Palestinian politics. So I
stopped making criticisms of Fatah.

criticism of only one side of the conflict ....sound familiar ?


QuoteI regard our commitment not to take sides in Palestinian politics
as extremely important, particularly at this time when, regrettably, the division between Fatah and
Hamas is so deeply entrenched.

QuoteUnfortunately, that policy position was publicly contravened by Raymond Deane in a letter to the
Israeli embassy, which he published on Indymedia on 1 July [2]. There, he described the Fatahcontrolled
Palestinian Authority (PA) as a "Vichy or Quisling regime". In other words, in a letter to
Israel, he described a Palestinian entity as fascist. It is difficult to imagine a more deeply insulting
remark or a less appropriate letter in which to apply the term to a Palestinian entity.

No acknowledgement of the complex politics, identities and differing aspirations on the Palestinian side .....sound familiar ?

QuoteThe IPSC doesn't prescribe any specific "solution" for Palestine, neither one-state, nor two-state, nor
any other. We believe that it's up to Palestinians to decide. It isn't appropriate that non-
Palestinians sitting in Dublin advocate a specific "solution". That's what imperialists in Washington
and London do.

Thats fine then let the Palestinians get on with it..if you , as an outsider, want to criticize there is an onus on you to
suggest some solutions. However, you've all noticed the way Seafoid and GHD never want to give specifics on any sort of solution .....that's no coincidence !!
(Hey Seafoid...once again, can you elaborate on your proposal for a Sunni homeland in Iraq..or it "not appropriate" for you to go into detail)














(P.S RN is the worst of them)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 28, 2014, 01:59:43 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 27, 2014, 08:13:24 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2014, 07:41:22 PM
Ok. I get you now. And can see why you might think the reply flippant. It wasn't intended to be. I'd assume that all right thinking people would react with disgust to such an attack, and assumed that was taken as read in my case.

I should have said " that's horrific, Israel is a disgrace in the way it conducts these attacks.. By the way, why do you feel the need to refer to the missing teenagers in that manner".

My point still stands in that I feel you and seafoid definitely seem to lack empathy with Israeli victims, but I certainly would not trivialise the treatment the Palestinian people are getting.

Israeli victims? How are they victims? Plus, in the past 5 years as I have already stated, close to 2,000 Palestinians have been murdered. To the best of my knowledge, around 20 Israeli's have been killed in that same time. Some of whom were killed by "friendly fire".

Over 500,000 illegal settlers currently occupy land stolen from Palestine. These are people who feel this is their land because "God gave it to them" and by been Jewish, they have a divine right to occupy this land. Illegally of course. 

The 3 people alleged to have been kidnapped are illegal settlers who illegally occupy this land.

Robert Fisk says that the current Israeli Government and Zionism is no different to what Cromwell did here in Ireland all those years ago. What we are currently witnessing is a repeat of history.

An example of this is Gordon McKnight from Bangor Co down who became a Jew and felt he had more right to this land than those who have lived there for thousands of years.  Check out what he has to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Eh12TG_N0

If you have the time, check out a few of the videos on you tube on how these settlers behave towards the indigenous people and their land.

AZoffaly is probably the most reasonable poster on this board and has practically bent over backwards to avoid confrontation.

Your last post was a sarcastic remark dressed up as an "apology". Despite this AZoffaly (seemingly unaware of the sarcasm) still graciously gave you the benefit of the doubt. Yet you STILL chase after him for having the temerity to suggest Israelis are human. This illustrates what I have been trying to tell the board about you two for ages. You are driven by hatred. You are not rational. Even when confronted with the most reasonable, sane people you will not budge an inch. You are idealogues of the worst soviet totalitarian kind.

What gives you the right to harass and intimidate people on this board GHD ? Do you think you have some higher moral authority to preach to us on Israel/Palestine ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 28, 2014, 01:00:25 PM
Video footage from a couple of different cctv camera of the Israeli drone strike on the car yesterday that left 2 Palestinians dead in Gaza:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=767819409927148

Or view via youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wCg0xWGefE&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 28, 2014, 01:30:52 PM
Every Israeli who dies so that the occupation can continue is a waste of a life. It's no different to the 5000 in Northern Ireland. It's harder to see it from a normal society but when a country deteriorates to the point where military values and violence prevail everyone is a potential victim. Israel cynically manipulates its dead civilians to paint the Palestinians as savage, all the time killing more of them.

Israel can't escape the dysfunction by itself. This is why international apathy is so dangerous.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 28, 2014, 02:11:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 28, 2014, 01:30:52 PM
Every Israeli who dies so that the occupation can continue is a waste of a life.

Well done. Maybe there is hope for you. Of course you had to get the qualification in there didn't you  ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 05:55:18 PM
There is news breaking that 3 bodies have been found in Hebron, and the Israeli cabinet are to hold an emergency meeting.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on June 30, 2014, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 05:55:18 PM
There is news breaking that 3 bodies have been found in Hebron, and the Israeli cabinet are to hold an emergency meeting.
Im sure the response will be measured and proportionate
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on June 30, 2014, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 05:55:18 PM
There is news breaking that 3 bodies have been found in Hebron, and the Israeli cabinet are to hold an emergency meeting.
Im sure the response will be measured and proportionate

I'm sure they will hit Gaza hard as they have been blaming Hamas from day 1. Yesterday they hit Gaza with an airstrike killing a Hamas resistance fighter and wounding several others.

Hebron will also suffer, and so will other area's throughout the West Bank.

Whatever they do, they will get away with it no matter how many are killed in revenge. The US will see to that, and so will a weak EU.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on June 30, 2014, 06:44:26 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on June 30, 2014, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 05:55:18 PM
There is news breaking that 3 bodies have been found in Hebron, and the Israeli cabinet are to hold an emergency meeting.
Im sure the response will be measured and proportionate

I'm sure they will hit Gaza hard as they have been blaming Hamas from day 1. Yesterday they hit Gaza with an airstrike killing a Hamas resistance fighter and wounding several others.

Hebron will also suffer, and so will other area's throughout the West Bank.

Whatever they do, they will get away with it no matter how many are killed in revenge. The US will see to that, and so will a weak EU.

Sadly Dixoe there is no doubt you are correct.

But the idiots who kidnapped and killed these kids are no heroes, to mind my they are traitors to their own people.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 30, 2014, 06:44:26 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on June 30, 2014, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 05:55:18 PM
There is news breaking that 3 bodies have been found in Hebron, and the Israeli cabinet are to hold an emergency meeting.
Im sure the response will be measured and proportionate

I'm sure they will hit Gaza hard as they have been blaming Hamas from day 1. Yesterday they hit Gaza with an airstrike killing a Hamas resistance fighter and wounding several others.

Hebron will also suffer, and so will other area's throughout the West Bank.

Whatever they do, they will get away with it no matter how many are killed in revenge. The US will see to that, and so will a weak EU.

Sadly Dixoe there is no doubt you are correct.

But the idiots who kidnapped and killed these kids are no heroes, to mind my they are traitors to their own people.

It now transpires that they were never kidnapped, and were shot shortly after going missing.

Rumors have been flying around for a couple of weeks that a gunshot was heard from a call made by one of them shortly after they went missing. Today, several people who were dealing with the phone call were fired.

The Gov had a full media blackout on the call, and reporting on it. So, in effect, they have known all along that there was a possibility that they were dead but they continued to go house to house ransacking them in order to supposedly look for them.

Apparently the bodies have been found in a field close to where they went missing by a volunteer search group.

All hell will break looses as Israel use these murders to further expand the settlements, impose drastic measures on those living in the occupied West Bank, isolate Hamas there as well, and for good measure, a full on assault on Gaza in the coming hours and days.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 07:35:52 PM
Netanyahu said yesterday that the Middle East is too dangerous to allow the Palestinians sovereignty.
So it's apartheid for the foreseeable. Hard to square that with Jewish values. Maybe someone can try it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 30, 2014, 07:37:06 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 30, 2014, 06:44:26 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on June 30, 2014, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 05:55:18 PM
There is news breaking that 3 bodies have been found in Hebron, and the Israeli cabinet are to hold an emergency meeting.
Im sure the response will be measured and proportionate

I'm sure they will hit Gaza hard as they have been blaming Hamas from day 1. Yesterday they hit Gaza with an airstrike killing a Hamas resistance fighter and wounding several others.

Hebron will also suffer, and so will other area's throughout the West Bank.

Whatever they do, they will get away with it no matter how many are killed in revenge. The US will see to that, and so will a weak EU.

Sadly Dixoe there is no doubt you are correct.

But the idiots who kidnapped and killed these kids are no heroes, to mind my they are traitors to their own people.

It now transpires that they were never kidnapped, and were shot shortly after going missing.

Rumors have been flying around for a couple of weeks that a gunshot was heard from a call made by one of them shortly after they went missing. Today, several people who were dealing with the phone call were fired.

The Gov had a full media blackout on the call, and reporting on it. So, in effect, they have known all along that there was a possibility that they were dead but they continued to go house to house ransacking them in order to supposedly look for them.

Apparently the bodies have been found in a field close to where they went missing by a volunteer search group.

All hell will break looses as Israel use these murders to further expand the settlements, impose drastic measures on those living in the occupied West Bank, isolate Hamas there as well, and for good measure, a full on assault on Gaza in the coming hours and days.

3 teenagers are dead and all we get from you is talk about rumours, completely unfounded speculation about  the Israeli govt did or did not know and more speculation about what their response will be. Why don't you shut up until the full facts are known you cretin.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 30, 2014, 07:38:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 07:35:52 PM
Netanyahu said yesterday that the Middle East is too dangerous to allow the Palestinians sovereignty.
So it's apartheid for the foreseeable. Hard to square that with Jewish values. Maybe someone can try it.

Maybe you should ask your mates in IPSC. RN is sure to know.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 07:52:44 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602189

President Shimon Peres releases a press release, saying, "The entire nation is bowing its head with unbearable sorrow this evening. Over the past 18 days the nation prayed as one that the fate of our wonderful teenagers would be that they are found alive and well. Now that the bitter news has come, the entire Israeli nation mourns the premature death of our finest youth... Alongside deep sorrow, we will remain resolute to punish the atrocious terrorists. Our war on terrorism will only intensify and will not waver so that this murderous terrorism won't dare to rear its head."

Shas chairman MK Aryeh Deri: "Naftali, Gilad, and Eyal, may God avenge their blood. All the nation of Israel is mourning tonight with the three bereaved families who showed us in the last two weeks what Jewish faith and strength are."

8:51 P.M. Economy Minister Naftali Bennett responds to the news, saying, "The murder of children is unforgivable. Our hearts are with the families right now. Now is the time for actions; not talk." (Barak Ravid)

8:40 P.M. Housing and Construction Minister Uri Ariel responds to news, saying, "In a war, as in war, one must strike at terrorists mercilessly on the one hand and respond with an appropriate Zionist response on the other." (Barak Ravid)


I wonder how many people they'll kill pour encourager les autres. It'll have to be many multiples of three.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

How about taking the settlers back home ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 30, 2014, 08:05:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 07:52:44 PM

I wonder how many people they'll kill pour encourager les autres. It'll have to be many multiples of three.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

How about taking the settlers back home ?

So you are advocating an SS style extermination of the settlers ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 30, 2014, 09:58:15 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 30, 2014, 08:05:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 07:52:44 PM

I wonder how many people they'll kill pour encourager les autres. It'll have to be many multiples of three.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

How about taking the settlers back home ?

So you are advocating an SS style extermination of the settlers ?

Nothing shuts Seafoid up quicker than calling him out his ambiguous statements. He never likes to explain himself.

I see you are talking to all and sundry over on mondoweiss about the Sunnis in Iraq yet you won't answer the simplest of questions here on gaaboard.com.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 10:20:10 PM
Netanyahu on murders of three Israeli teens: Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay.

Calling the murderers of the three kidnapped teenagers "beasts," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Monday evening that "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."

Netanyahu said in a statement: "In great agony, we found three dead bodies  this evening, and all signs are that these are the dead bodies of our three kidnapped youths – Eyal, Gilad and Naftali.

"They were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by beasts," he continued. "In the name of the entire people of Israel, I wish to say to the dear families – the mothers, the fathers, the grandmothers and grandfathers, the sisters and brothers – that our hearts bleed, the whole nation cries with you. We will bring the boys for burial in Israel. Vengeance for the blood of a small child, Satan has not yet created. Neither has vengeance for the blood of 3 pure youths who were on their way home to see their parents – who will not see them again. Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay. May the memories of the three boys be blessed."

President Shimon Peres said Israel's retribution would be harsh.

"The whole nation blows its head this evening with a grief too heavy to bear," Peres said in a statement. "These 18 days the nation has prayed in one voice that our wonderful boys would be found alive and well. Now, upon receiving the bitter news, the people of Israel mourn the untimely deaths of the best of our young. Alongside this heavy sorrow, we are determined to punish the wicked terrorists with a strong hand. Our war against terror will get stronger, it will not weaken, so that this murderous terror will not dare raise its head."

Opposition leader MK Isaac Herzog (Labor) said, "There is no explanation or human justification [for the murders] and I'm sure that that the long arm of the security forces will reach the murderers. We have known painful attacks and overcame them, and so it will be this time. This is our life in this country."

Meretz chairwoman Zahava Gal-On described the murders as a "war crime," but called for a judicial rather than military response, and also insisted that Palestinian moderates be strengthened and not punished. "The boys' kidnapping and murder is a war crime that must be punished with the full severity of the law. Nevertheless, precisely at this moment, it's vital to distinguish between those responsible for this wicked act and between the Palestinians who denounced it, first and foremost the president of the Palestinian Authority, Abu Mazen," she stated, using Mahmoud Abbas' nickname.

Science and Technology Minister Jacob Perry (Yesh Atid) called on Abbas to dissolve his unity government with Hamas. "I once again urge Abu Mazen to immediately dissociate himself from the murderous terrorist organization Hamas, which perpetrated this abominable crime," said Perry.

Right calls for Hamas' destruction

Right-wing members of the Israeli government called for the destruction of Hamas following the discovery of the bodies of the three kidnapped teenagers on Monday.

"This tragic ending must also be the end of Hamas! The nation is strong and ready to absorb [attacks] for the sake of striking a mortal blow against Hamas," said Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon (Likud).

"[W]e have to destroy the homes of Hamas activists, wipe out their arsenals everywhere, and stop the flow of money that directly or indirectly keeps terror alive," Danon added.

Deputy Minister Tzipi Hotovely (Likud) said, "The despicable kidnapping and murder of the students cannot go by in silence, and those responsible in Gaza must pay the price. The government of Israel must declare a war to the death on Hamas, which is responsible for the murders, and return to the policy of assassination."

Hotovely's call for the resumption of targeted assassinations against Hamas activists was joined by Housing Minister Uri Ariel (Habayit Hayehudi) and Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz (Likud). Ariel also called for "an appropriate Zionist response," meaning an increase in West Bank settlement building.

Economy Minister Naftali Bennett, head of Habayit Hayehudi, said, "The murder of children is unforgivable. Our hearts are with the families right now. Now is the time for actions, not talk."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602235
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 10:39:22 PM
Here is some good background info on the case with latest updates:

Three Kidnapped Israeli Teens Are Found Dead

Sheera Frenkel

Within minutes of stepping into the battered Hyundai i35 on the night of June 12, Israeli teens Gilad Shaar, Naftali Fraenkel, and Eyal Yifrach knew they were in trouble.

The three teenagers were squished into the backseat of the vehicle, which had picked them up in the southern West Bank's Alon Shvut junction, just feet away from a nearby military base. It was just past 10 p.m. at night, and the three were making their way home to their homes in the West Bank settlement bloc of Gush Etzion. They rang their parents to say they were hitching a ride, as they often did. But then, within minutes of entering the car, one of them managed to make a two-minute phone call to police at the local Kiriyat Arba police station, and in hushed tones said, "We've been kidnapped."

"They knew immediately what had happened to them," said Yoav, one of two Israeli army officers involved in the kidnapping case who spoke to BuzzFeed on condition he be quoted with only his first name since many of the details are still under gag order. "They got into the car after 10 p.m., and at 10:25 they called police."

The local officer on call, however, didn't pass on the information about a possible kidnapping to his superiors for hours, and gave up trying to re-dial the cell phone after eight attempts. By the time anyone more senior had been notified, the three teens were dead.

"We don't know yet what led the kidnappers to shoot the teens. But we know it happened quickly, within hours, maybe within an hour, of when they were taken," said a second Israeli officer involved with the case. "They were shot. There was no chance they could survive."

Previously under gag order were details that a shot could be heard in the background of the phone call to police, and that forensic evidence found in the Hyundai indicated that there had been foul play.

"We have been operating, for some time now, with evidence that these boys were killed," said the officer in Hebron. "It is with a heavy heart that we realized we were looking for bodies."

The Hyundai, which was abandoned, torched, in the Palestinian city of Hebron, shows that the three teens were shot at close range inside the car. The kidnappers then moved their bodies to a second vehicle, which they drove approximately 10 minutes down the road to an empty field in the north of the city.

"They buried one of the bodies further down, and the other two a bit more to the top. Maybe they were hurrying. They tried to hide the burial sight with rocks," said Yoav. "They did this at night, when no one could see them."

By morning, a massive manhunt was underway. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the military to comb the area, and arrest any person suspected of involvement in the kidnapping. But it wasn't until more than two weeks later, on Monday at 5 p.m., that a group of volunteers and IDF soldiers found the makeshift grave.

"They were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by animals," Netanyahu told his security cabinet Monday, as Israeli media announced that the bodies of the three teens had been found. "In the name of the whole of Israel, I ask to tell the dear families — to the mothers, the fathers, the grandmothers and the grandfathers, the brothers and sisters — our hearts are bleeding, the whole nation is crying with them."

In a later statement, Netanyahu said, "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."

Israeli intelligence officials, however, remained divided over whether Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisha — two men named as wanted suspects behind the kidnapping — had direct ties to Hamas. The Qawasmeh family, one of the better-known families in Hebron, had recently distanced itself from Hamas.

"What we do know, is that this was likely an opportunistic move. The men behind this may have ties to a larger terror group, but this does not have the markings of a well-planned, complex operation," one Israeli officer, based in the West Bank, told BuzzFeed earlier this month.

In Hebron, local residents who knew the families of the suspects expressed doubt that Hamas was responsible, especially after the Hamas' senior leadership distanced itself from the kidnapping.

"That family, the Qawasmehs, often acted without the knowledge or signing-off of the senior Hamas leadership," said Mahmoud Zabir, a Palestinian resident of Hebron who knows the family well. "They were considered troublemakers, even by Hamas."

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas spoke to European and American officials Monday night, and expressed his sorrow over the death of the three teens. He called for an end to the violence, and asked that no action be taken until those responsible for the kidnapping were found.

On Monday night, hardline Jewish settlement groups called for Price Tag attacks against Palestinian areas in revenge against the deaths of the three teens. Israeli police said they had increased their presence in volatile areas, including in the area of the Hebron where the two suspects lived.

More than 240 Palestinians were arrested — most of them Hamas members — in the search for the two teens.

"We are being told to stay indoors, it looks bad," said Palestinian shopkeeper Ibrahim Mansoor, who lives just in Hebron. "We can see the Israeli soldiers from our windows, we can hear shooting and we are very worried that tonight will turn ugly."

At least five Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank in clashes with Israeli soldiers since the teens were kidnapped. An additional three Palestinians have been killed in air strikes in the Gaza Strip.

Many have expressed concern that the violence will now only escalate.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/sheerafrenkel/three-kidnapped-israeli-teens-are-found-dead
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 10:48:29 PM
The DUP was never this bad

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602189
9:02 P.M. Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon (Likud) called for an all-out military assault aimed at the total destruction of Hamas. "This tragic ending must also be the ending of Hamas! The nation is strong and ready to absorb [attacks] for the sake of a mortal blow against Hamas. ... [W]e have to destroy the homes of Hamas activists, wipe out their arsenals everywhere, and stop the flow of money that directly or indirectly keeps terror alive... make the entire Palestinian leadership pay a heavy price."


so much hypocrisy


"AIPAC releases statement saying it "stands with the people of Israel at this moment of sorrow and loss. We express our deep sympathy and condolences to the families of the innocent teenage boys who were murdered by terrorists with no respect for human life. Americans and Israelis understand that terrorist barbarism cannot be tolerated. We have once again witnessed that Hamas is an enemy of peace, reconciliation and fundamental human decency. For the sake of peace, all people of goodwill should distance themselves from this terrorist body. Israel is not alone at this terrible time of mourning. America and all civilized people share Israel's loss and identify with her determination to defend her people. Terror must be given no quarter."

Respect for human life is rich coming from AIPAC. 
Have to be in uniform to kill people legitimately

and of course the American Jewish angle. Israel is always the victim. That is what the donors say. 

"Robert G. Sugarman, chairman, and Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice chairman, of Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations issue a statement, saying: "We are horrified and devastated by the reports, now confirmed, that the three boys Eyal Yifrach, Gilad Shaar, and Naftali Fraenkel, kidnapped on June 12th, have been found dead in the Hebron area...It is time that the world stand in unity against those who advocate and execute, as well as justify, the murder of innocent young people who are brutally butchered in Israel or anywhere. It cannot be met by indifference or pro-forma expressions of sympathy. For too long the threats against Israel, including missiles and terrorism, have elicited limited responses, with the roles of victims and perpetrators inverted. It must stop." "
Yeah, just kill them all

Like back in the day in Sabra and Shatila . That taught them a lesson. 

The main thing is hanging onto the West Bank and pretending it's Jewish land

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/29/israel-prime-minister-kurdish-independence
"Netanyahu said that given the threats in the region, Israel would have to maintain a military presence throughout the West Bank for the foreseeable future. "We must be able to stop the terrorism and fundamentalism that can reach us from the east at the Jordan line and not in the suburbs of Tel Aviv. He went on to say that whoever does not accept Israel's need for a security presence "isn't facing reality"."


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 30, 2014, 10:49:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 10:39:22 PM
Here is some good background info on the case with latest updates:

Three Kidnapped Israeli Teens Are Found Dead

Sheera Frenkel

Within minutes of stepping into the battered Hyundai i35 on the night of June 12, Israeli teens Gilad Shaar, Naftali Fraenkel, and Eyal Yifrach knew they were in trouble.

The three teenagers were squished into the backseat of the vehicle, which had picked them up in the southern West Bank's Alon Shvut junction, just feet away from a nearby military base. It was just past 10 p.m. at night, and the three were making their way home to their homes in the West Bank settlement bloc of Gush Etzion. They rang their parents to say they were hitching a ride, as they often did. But then, within minutes of entering the car, one of them managed to make a two-minute phone call to police at the local Kiriyat Arba police station, and in hushed tones said, "We've been kidnapped."

"They knew immediately what had happened to them," said Yoav, one of two Israeli army officers involved in the kidnapping case who spoke to BuzzFeed on condition he be quoted with only his first name since many of the details are still under gag order. "They got into the car after 10 p.m., and at 10:25 they called police."

The local officer on call, however, didn't pass on the information about a possible kidnapping to his superiors for hours, and gave up trying to re-dial the cell phone after eight attempts. By the time anyone more senior had been notified, the three teens were dead.

"We don't know yet what led the kidnappers to shoot the teens. But we know it happened quickly, within hours, maybe within an hour, of when they were taken," said a second Israeli officer involved with the case. "They were shot. There was no chance they could survive."

Previously under gag order were details that a shot could be heard in the background of the phone call to police, and that forensic evidence found in the Hyundai indicated that there had been foul play.

"We have been operating, for some time now, with evidence that these boys were killed," said the officer in Hebron. "It is with a heavy heart that we realized we were looking for bodies."

The Hyundai, which was abandoned, torched, in the Palestinian city of Hebron, shows that the three teens were shot at close range inside the car. The kidnappers then moved their bodies to a second vehicle, which they drove approximately 10 minutes down the road to an empty field in the north of the city.

"They buried one of the bodies further down, and the other two a bit more to the top. Maybe they were hurrying. They tried to hide the burial sight with rocks," said Yoav. "They did this at night, when no one could see them."

By morning, a massive manhunt was underway. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the military to comb the area, and arrest any person suspected of involvement in the kidnapping. But it wasn't until more than two weeks later, on Monday at 5 p.m., that a group of volunteers and IDF soldiers found the makeshift grave.

"They were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by animals," Netanyahu told his security cabinet Monday, as Israeli media announced that the bodies of the three teens had been found. "In the name of the whole of Israel, I ask to tell the dear families — to the mothers, the fathers, the grandmothers and the grandfathers, the brothers and sisters — our hearts are bleeding, the whole nation is crying with them."

In a later statement, Netanyahu said, "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."

Israeli intelligence officials, however, remained divided over whether Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisha — two men named as wanted suspects behind the kidnapping — had direct ties to Hamas. The Qawasmeh family, one of the better-known families in Hebron, had recently distanced itself from Hamas.

"What we do know, is that this was likely an opportunistic move. The men behind this may have ties to a larger terror group, but this does not have the markings of a well-planned, complex operation," one Israeli officer, based in the West Bank, told BuzzFeed earlier this month.

In Hebron, local residents who knew the families of the suspects expressed doubt that Hamas was responsible, especially after the Hamas' senior leadership distanced itself from the kidnapping.

"That family, the Qawasmehs, often acted without the knowledge or signing-off of the senior Hamas leadership," said Mahmoud Zabir, a Palestinian resident of Hebron who knows the family well. "They were considered troublemakers, even by Hamas."

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas spoke to European and American officials Monday night, and expressed his sorrow over the death of the three teens. He called for an end to the violence, and asked that no action be taken until those responsible for the kidnapping were found.

On Monday night, hardline Jewish settlement groups called for Price Tag attacks against Palestinian areas in revenge against the deaths of the three teens. Israeli police said they had increased their presence in volatile areas, including in the area of the Hebron where the two suspects lived.

More than 240 Palestinians were arrested — most of them Hamas members — in the search for the two teens.

"We are being told to stay indoors, it looks bad," said Palestinian shopkeeper Ibrahim Mansoor, who lives just in Hebron. "We can see the Israeli soldiers from our windows, we can hear shooting and we are very worried that tonight will turn ugly."

At least five Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank in clashes with Israeli soldiers since the teens were kidnapped. An additional three Palestinians have been killed in air strikes in the Gaza Strip.

Many have expressed concern that the violence will now only escalate.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/sheerafrenkel/three-kidnapped-israeli-teens-are-found-dead


what is your opinion on the murder of these three teenagers GHD ? Do you condemn the murders unreservedly ? Do you condemn them at all ? Do you think the murders are justified ?

The board awaits your response in your own words. No quotes allowed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 30, 2014, 10:51:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 10:48:29 PM
The DUP was never this bad

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602189
9:02 P.M. Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon (Likud) called for an all-out military assault aimed at the total destruction of Hamas. "This tragic ending must also be the ending of Hamas! The nation is strong and ready to absorb [attacks] for the sake of a mortal blow against Hamas. ... [W]e have to destroy the homes of Hamas activists, wipe out their arsenals everywhere, and stop the flow of money that directly or indirectly keeps terror alive... make the entire Palestinian leadership pay a heavy price."


so much hypocrisy


"AIPAC releases statement saying it "stands with the people of Israel at this moment of sorrow and loss. We express our deep sympathy and condolences to the families of the innocent teenage boys who were murdered by terrorists with no respect for human life. Americans and Israelis understand that terrorist barbarism cannot be tolerated. We have once again witnessed that Hamas is an enemy of peace, reconciliation and fundamental human decency. For the sake of peace, all people of goodwill should distance themselves from this terrorist body. Israel is not alone at this terrible time of mourning. America and all civilized people share Israel's loss and identify with her determination to defend her people. Terror must be given no quarter."

Respect for human life is rich coming from AIPAC. 
Have to be in uniform to kill people legitimately

and of course the American Jewish angle. Israel is always the victim. That is what the donors say. 

"Robert G. Sugarman, chairman, and Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice chairman, of Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations issue a statement, saying: "We are horrified and devastated by the reports, now confirmed, that the three boys Eyal Yifrach, Gilad Shaar, and Naftali Fraenkel, kidnapped on June 12th, have been found dead in the Hebron area...It is time that the world stand in unity against those who advocate and execute, as well as justify, the murder of innocent young people who are brutally butchered in Israel or anywhere. It cannot be met by indifference or pro-forma expressions of sympathy. For too long the threats against Israel, including missiles and terrorism, have elicited limited responses, with the roles of victims and perpetrators inverted. It must stop." "
Yeah, just kill them all

Like back in the day in Sabra and Shatila . That taught them a lesson. 

The main thing is hanging onto the West Bank and pretending it's Jewish land

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/29/israel-prime-minister-kurdish-independence
"Netanyahu said that given the threats in the region, Israel would have to maintain a military presence throughout the West Bank for the foreseeable future. "We must be able to stop the terrorism and fundamentalism that can reach us from the east at the Jordan line and not in the suburbs of Tel Aviv. He went on to say that whoever does not accept Israel's need for a security presence "isn't facing reality"."

You too Seafoid. In your own words.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 10:52:22 PM
The family homes of 2 people suspected of involvement in the 3 deaths have now been blown up by Israeli Occupation Forces. Several people including a young baby have been injured

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BraKBPaCMAA39iY.jpg)


The ambulance can't even get through to the injured 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BraNqoDCcAEGlel.jpg:large)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 10:56:43 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 30, 2014, 10:52:22 PM
The family homes of 2 people suspected of involvement in the 3 deaths have now been blown up by Israeli Occupation Forces. Several people including a young baby have been injured

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BraK27WCAAAVITC.jpg
The Nazis used to do that too.  Light unto the nations needs a bit of violence every so often to keep the natives quiet.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 10:59:47 PM
No Palestinian state means apartheid.
How is that Jewish ?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1c5f1352-79d5-11e2-9015-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz2MqB5G9G3

I recalled a conversation in 1991 with Professor Stanley Cohen, the eminent sociologist who died last month. We were discussing IDF human rights abuses, which Cohen worked tirelessly to expose. He turned to talk instead about his profound concern for young Israelis, specifically the brutalising effect that militarisation was having, and would have, on successive generations of young men and women. At the time his concerns seemed misdirected; on reflection what struck me was their prophetic accuracy.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 30, 2014, 11:11:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 30, 2014, 10:59:47 PM
No Palestinian state means apartheid.
How is that Jewish ?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1c5f1352-79d5-11e2-9015-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz2MqB5G9G3

I recalled a conversation in 1991 with Professor Stanley Cohen, the eminent sociologist who died last month. We were discussing IDF human rights abuses, which Cohen worked tirelessly to expose. He turned to talk instead about his profound concern for young Israelis, specifically the brutalising effect that militarisation was having, and would have, on successive generations of young men and women. At the time his concerns seemed misdirected; on reflection what struck me was their prophetic accuracy.


Your supposed concern for young Israelis rings hollow when you can't even bring yourself to condemn their murder.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 01, 2014, 08:36:53 AM
Why this week shows that Israel is on the wrong path 

-  the notion that Jewish life is more important than Palestinian life
-  the idea that the status quo is doable into infinity and that because they are Jews they can run apartheid with anyone who objects labeled as an anti-Semite
-  the cost to their own society of educating the people to run apartheid
-  the fact they can't escape the cycle of violence

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 01, 2014, 12:08:28 PM
You couldn't make this stuff up

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602334
"Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu proposed Monday night that Israel's response to the murder of the three teenagers in the West Bank should include a wave of settlement construction and the establishment of a new settlement in memory of Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shaar and Naftali Fraenkel, a senior Israeli official told Haaretz."

Israel really wants peace.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 01, 2014, 12:08:28 PM
You couldn't make this stuff up

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602334
"Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu proposed Monday night that Israel's response to the murder of the three teenagers in the West Bank should include a wave of settlement construction and the establishment of a new settlement in memory of Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shaar and Naftali Fraenkel, a senior Israeli official told Haaretz."

Israel really wants peace.

Of course they want piece..... The Piece of land called Palestine
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 01, 2014, 12:56:47 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 01, 2014, 12:08:28 PM
You couldn't make this stuff up

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602334
"Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu proposed Monday night that Israel's response to the murder of the three teenagers in the West Bank should include a wave of settlement construction and the establishment of a new settlement in memory of Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shaar and Naftali Fraenkel, a senior Israeli official told Haaretz."

Israel really wants peace.

Of course they want piece..... The Piece of land called Palestine
Have since day 1.

David Ben-Gurion said that "The Arabs of the Land of Israel have only one function left to them – to run away."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 02:06:52 PM
Israeli forces kill Palestinian teen in Jenin refugee camp

Israeli forces shot and killed a Palestinian teenager during a military operation in Jenin refugee camp in the northern West Bank early Tuesday, locals and medics said.

Palestinian Red Crescent medics told Ma'an 16-year-old Yousef Abu Zagha was shot by Israeli fire in the chest during clashes with troops who raided the camp overnight.

Abu Zagha was pronounced dead shortly after arriving at a public hospital in Jenin.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said that he was a "Hamas operative" about to hurl an explosive device at troops sent to arrest him.

"They opened fire and confirmed a hit," the spokeswoman said.

The killing came after Israeli forces found the bodies of three Israeli teenagers who had been missing in the West Bank for over two weeks.

Israeli forces have killed six Palestinians in the military operation that followed the disappearance of the teenagers from the Gush Etzion settlement on June 12.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=709032
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 01, 2014, 02:26:06 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 02:06:52 PM
Israeli forces kill Palestinian teen in Jenin refugee camp

Israeli forces shot and killed a Palestinian teenager during a military operation in Jenin refugee camp in the northern West Bank early Tuesday, locals and medics said.

Palestinian Red Crescent medics told Ma'an 16-year-old Yousef Abu Zagha was shot by Israeli fire in the chest during clashes with troops who raided the camp overnight.

Abu Zagha was pronounced dead shortly after arriving at a public hospital in Jenin.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said that he was a "Hamas operative" about to hurl an explosive device at troops sent to arrest him.

"They opened fire and confirmed a hit," the spokeswoman said.

The killing came after Israeli forces found the bodies of three Israeli teenagers who had been missing in the West Bank for over two weeks.

Israeli forces have killed six Palestinians in the military operation that followed the disappearance of the teenagers from the Gush Etzion settlement on June 12.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=709032

"It is time that the world stand in unity against those who advocate and execute, as well as justify, the murder of innocent young people who are brutally butchered in Israel or anywhere*," said Robert G. Sugarman, chairman, and Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice chairman, of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, in a statement.

Shas chairman Aryeh Deri: "I spoke with the prime minister this morning, and told him the Shas movement will give the government all the necessary backing in order to hold the despicable murderers and those who sent them accountable. The State of Israel cannot ignore the cold-blooded murder of children*."

*Offer available to Jewish children only in Erez Israel. Please do not ask for sympathy as a refusal may offend.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on July 01, 2014, 05:36:59 PM
You have to wonder why the story was the headline of the RTE news yesterday?
Sad that this happened but what has it got to do with Ireland?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 06:10:41 PM
Recording of teen's emergency call released. Audio of call placed by Gilad Shaar to police on night of kidnapping catches his plea, 'They kidnapped me,' followed by shouts and gunshots.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602442/1.602442
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: StGallsGAA on July 01, 2014, 10:01:09 PM
No question which side has the better western sympathy PR campaign going....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 11:05:13 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on July 01, 2014, 10:01:09 PM
No question which side has the better western sympathy PR campaign going....

Plus, having the BBC as your propaganda wing is a big help
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 11:42:17 PM
The searing hypocrisy of the West

Susan Abulhawa

Since the teens went missing from Gush Etzion, a Jewish-only colony in the West Bank, Israel has besieged the 4 million Palestinians who already live under its thumb, storming through towns, ransacking homes and civil institutions, conducting night raids on families, stealing property, kidnapping, injuring, and killing. Warplanes were dispatched to bomb Gaza, again and repeatedly, destroying more homes and institutions and carrying out extrajudicial executions.

Thus far, over 570 Palestinians have been kidnapped and imprisoned, most notably a Samer Issawi, the Palestinian who went on a 266-day hunger strike in protest of a previous arbitrary detention. At least 10 Palestinians have been killed, including at least three children, a pregnant woman, and a mentally ill man. Hundreds have been injured, thousands terrorized. Universities and social welfare organizations were ransacked, shut down, their computers and equipment destroyed or stolen, and both private and public documents confiscated from civil institutions.

This wonton thuggery is official state policy conducted by its military and does not include the violence to persons and properties perpetuated by paramilitary Israeli settlers, whose persistent attacks against Palestinian civilians have also escalated in the past weeks. And now that the settlers are confirmed dead, Israel has vowed to exact revenge. Naftali Bennet, Economy Minister said, "There is no mercy for the murderers of children. This is the time for action, not words."

Although no Palestinian faction has claimed responsibility for the abduction, and most, including Hamas, deny any involvement, Benjamin Netanyahu is adamant that Hamas is responsible. The United Nations requested that Israel provide evidence to support their contention, but no evidence has been forthcoming, casting doubt on Israel's claims, particularly in light of its public ire over the recent unification of Palestinian factions and President Obama's acceptance of the new Palestinian unity.

In the West, headlines over pictures of the three Israeli settler teens referred to Israel's reign of terror over Palestine as a "manhunt" and "military sweep." Portraits of innocent young Israeli lives emerged from news outlets and the voices of their parents are featured in the fullness of their anguish. The US, EU, UK, UN, Canada and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) condemned the kidnapping and called for their immediate and unconditional release. Upon discovery of the bodies, there has been an outpouring of condemnation and condolences.

President Obama said, "As a father, I cannot imagine the indescribable pain that the parents of these teenage boys are experiencing. The United States condemns in the strongest possible terms this senseless act of terror against innocent youth."

Although hundreds of Palestinian children are kidnapped, brutalized or killed by Israel, including several in the past two weeks, there is rarely, if ever, such a reaction from the world.

Just prior to the disappearance of the Israeli settler teens, the murder of two Palestinian teens was caught on a local surveillance camera. Ample evidence, including the recovered bullets and a CNN camera filming an Israeli sharpshooter pulling the trigger at the precise moment one of the boys was shot indicated that they were killed in cold blood by Israeli soldiers. There were no condemnations or calls for justice for these teens by world leaders or international institutions, no solidarity with their grieving parents, nor mention of the more than 250 Palestinian children, kidnapped from their beds or on their way to school, who continue to languish in Israeli jails without charge or trial, physically and psychologically tortured. This is to say nothing of the barbaric siege of Gaza, or the decades of ongoing theft, evictions, assaults on education, confiscation of land, demolition of homes, color coded permit system, arbitrary imprisonment, restriction of movement, checkpoints, extrajudicial executions, torture, and denials at every turn squeezing Palestinians into isolated ghettos.

None of that seemingly matters.

It does not matter that no one knows who murdered the Israeli teens. It seems the entire country is calling for Palestinian blood, reminiscent of American southern lynching rallies that went after black men whenever a white person turned up dead. Nor does it matter that these Israeli teens were settlers living in illegal Jewish-only colonies that were built on land stolen by the state mostly from Palestinian owners from the village of el-Khader. A huge portion of the settlers there are Americans, mostly from New York, like one of the murdered teens, who exercise Jewish privilege to hold dual citizenship; to have an extra country no matter where they're from, one in their own homeland and one in ours, at the same time that the indigenous Palestinians fester in refugee camps, occupied ghettos, or boundless exile.

Palestinian children are assaulted or murdered every day and barely do their lives register in western press. While Palestinian mothers are frequently blamed when Israel kills their children, accused of sending them to die or neglecting to keep them at home away from Israeli snipers, no one questions Rachel Frankel, the mother of one of the murdered settlers. She is not asked to comment on the fact that one of the missing settlers is a soldier who likely participated in the oppression of his Palestinian neighbors. No one asks why she would move her family from the United States to live in a segregated, supremacist colony established on land confiscated from the native non-Jewish owners. Certainly no one dares accuse her of therefore putting her children in harms way.

No mother should have endure the murder of her child. No mother or father. That does not only apply to Jewish parents. The lives of our children are no less precious and their loss are no less shattering and spiritually unhinging. But there is a terrible disparity in the value of life here in the eyes of the state and the world, where Palestinian life is cheap and disposable, but Jewish life is sacrosanct.

This exceptionalism and supremacy of Jewish life is a fundamental underpinning of the state of Israel. It pervades their every law and protocol, and is matched only by their apparent contempt and disregard for Palestinian life. Whether through laws that favor Jews for employment and educational opportunities, or laws that allow the exclusion of non-Jews from buying or renting among Jews, or endless military orders that limit the movement, water consumption, food access, education, marriage possibilities, and economic independence, or these periodic upending of Palestinian civil society, life for non-Jews ultimately conforms to the religious edict issued by Dov Lior, Chief Rabbi of Hebron and Kiryat Arba, saying "a thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail."

Israeli violence of the past few weeks is generally accepted and expected. And the terror we know they will unleash on our people will be, as it always is, cloaked in the legitimacy of uniforms and technological death machines. Israeli violence, no matter how vulgar, is inevitably couched as a heroic, ironic violence that western media frames as "response," as if Palestinian resistance itself were not a response to Israeli oppression. When the ICRC was asked to issue a similar call for the immediate and unconditional release of the hundreds of Palestinian children held in Israeli jails (which is also in contravention of international humanitarian law), the ICRC refused, indicating there's a difference between the isolated abduction of Israeli teens and the routine abduction, torture, isolation, and imprisonment of Palestinian children.

When our children throw rocks at heavily armed Israeli tanks and jeeps rolling through our streets, we are contemptible parents who should be bear responsibility for the murder of our children if they are shot by Israeli soldiers or settlers. When we refuse to capitulate completely, we are "not partners for peace," and deserve to have more land confiscated from us for the exclusive use of Jews. When we take up arms and fight back, kidnap a soldier, we are terrorists of the extreme kind who have no one to blame but ourselves as Israel subjects the entire Palestinian population to punitive collective punishment. When we engage in peaceful protests, we are rioters who deserve the live fire they send our way. When we debate, write, and boycott, we are anti-Semites who should be silenced, deported, marginalized, or prosecuted.

What should we do, then? Palestine is quite literally being wiped off the map by a state that openly upholds Jewish supremacy and Jewish privilege. Our people continue to be robbed of home and heritage, pushed to the margins of humanity, blamed for our own miserable fate. We are a traumatized, principally unarmed, native society being destroyed and erased by one of the most powerful militaries in the world.

Rachel Frankel went to the UN to plead for their support, saying "it is wrong to take children, innocent boys or girls, and use them as instruments of any struggle. It is cruel...I wish to ask: Doesn't every child have the right to come home safely from school?" Do those sentiments apply to Palestinian children, too? Here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here are video examples of the abduction of Palestinian children from their homes at night and on their way to and from school.

But none of that matters either. Does it? It matters that three Israeli Jews were killed. It doesn't matter who did it or what the circumstances were, the entire Palestinian population will be made to suffer, more than they already are.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-searing-hypocrisy-of-the-west/article6163918.ece
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 05:04:43 AM
Body of Arab youth found in Jerusalem forest

The body of an Arab youth was found in the Jerusalem Forest near a gas station on Wednesday morning, Israeli media reported.

The cause of death is still unknown, but there are suspicions that the youth was kidnapped and murdered by a Jew.

Police are currently investigating the incident.

http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Body-of-Arab-youth-found-in-Jerusalem-forest-361229
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 05:31:18 AM
Since the bodies of three missing Israeli youths were discovered in the occupied West Bank on Monday, Israeli politicians have whipped the public up with demands for "revenge."

The videos in this post show disturbing footage of significant crowds of young Israelis marching through the streets of Jerusalem on Tuesday evening chanting "Death to the Arabs" – "mavet la'aravim" in Hebrew.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/jerusalem-lynch-mobs-attack-palestinians-after-israeli-teens-funerals
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 10:29:54 AM
Graffiti in the West Bank 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrhyOOyCUAA05xw.jpg:large)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brh19rcCMAAxvZm.jpg)


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 10:44:50 AM
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-soldiers-celebrate-killing-palestinian-youth-revenge
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Bensars on July 02, 2014, 10:47:08 AM
Dixie, you are fond of posting articles on the event, yet in the last three days or so youve havent come out and condemned  the killing of the three young men ? 
If it was other way about you would be foaming at the mouth, articles, youtube clips, pictures etc.
Rather you prefer post pictures of fecking graffiti ?


You're no better than the bigot from the west from the province that is on the Nolan show every morning continually stirring the pot !
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 10:55:47 AM
Every time something like this happens, Israel reacts like a frenzied pack of wild dogs. Why do they do that? They behave like animals.

And knowing this, why do Palestinian groups do stuff like this, knowing that their civilians will suffer the most.

It's an awful situation that I think only a united international force can solve, but without a real will (not mealy mouthed horse shite) there to do that, it's just going to continue being a cesspit until eventually the Israelis destroy the Palestinians, or all the Arab states declare war on Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 11:06:27 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 10:55:47 AM
Every time something like this happens, Israel reacts like a frenzied pack of wild dogs. Why do they do that? They behave like animals.

And knowing this, why do Palestinian groups do stuff like this, knowing that their civilians will suffer the most.

It's an awful situation that I think only a united international force can solve, but without a real will (not mealy mouthed horse shite) there to do that, it's just going to continue being a cesspit until eventually the Israelis destroy the Palestinians, or all the Arab states declare war on Israel.
The Israelis have a persecution complex that comes from the Jewish experience in World War 2. It doesn't matter how big their army is.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/01/murders-israel-jewish-state

And the Jewish bible is misused. Far too many settlers call the Palestinians Amalek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek
Of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) followed by Orthodox Jews, three refer to the Amalek: to remember what the Amalekites did to the Israelites, not to forget what the Amalekites did to Israelites, and to destroy the Amalekites utterly

And dead Palestinians are all terrorists
https://www.facebook.com/Kulanuu/posts/836300876379960

It's a land dispute that is exacerbated by religion.
Israeli society is damaged by the ongoing occupation. The situation is not stable and it's only going to get worse.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: deiseach on July 02, 2014, 11:08:56 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 10:55:47 AM
Every time something like this happens, Israel reacts like a frenzied pack of wild dogs. Why do they do that? They behave like animals.

And knowing this, why do Palestinian groups do stuff like this, knowing that their civilians will suffer the most.

It's an awful situation that I think only a united international force can solve, but without a real will (not mealy mouthed horse shite) there to do that, it's just going to continue being a cesspit until eventually the Israelis destroy the Palestinians, or all the Arab states declare war on Israel.

Auden put it best: peace of a kind is what they are after.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 11:19:07 AM
This is closer to the mark and applies to extremists on both sides, especially Seafoid and GHD

"Their cause, if they had one, is nothing to them now;
They hate for hate's sake. "



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 11:28:18 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 11:19:07 AM
This is closer to the mark and applies to extremists on both sides, especially Seafoid and GHD

"Their cause, if they had one, is nothing to them now;
They hate for hate's sake. "

I think that becomes true of any conflict that goes on for a long time.

In this case though, it does look like Israel are flaunting international law with regard to the settlements, and that has to be the basis for any peace. Obviously, Israel and her people would need strong outside assurance that they will be not left out to dry by the international community, because there are those in that region who wish the state of Israel to disappear totally. (And the Israeli/Jewish people too probably).
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 11:33:41 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 11:28:18 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 11:19:07 AM
This is closer to the mark and applies to extremists on both sides, especially Seafoid and GHD

"Their cause, if they had one, is nothing to them now;
They hate for hate's sake. "

I think that becomes true of any conflict that goes on for a long time.

In this case though, it does look like Israel are flaunting international law with regard to the settlements, and that has to be the basis for any peace. Obviously, Israel and her people would need strong outside assurance that they will be not left out to dry by the international community, because there are those in that region who wish the state of Israel to disappear totally. (And the Israeli/Jewish people too probably).
They have to live together. But it's hard to see any sort of stability while Zionism runs the show.
And Israel has to abide by law because if the tables are turned at some stage they'll need it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 11:59:33 AM
Quote from: Bensars on July 02, 2014, 10:47:08 AM
Dixie, you are fond of posting articles on the event, yet in the last three days or so youve havent come out and condemned  the killing of the three young men ? 
If it was other way about you would be foaming at the mouth, articles, youtube clips, pictures etc.
Rather you prefer post pictures of fecking graffiti ?


You're no better than the bigot from the west from the province that is on the Nolan show every morning continually stirring the pot !

Bensars, as I have said continually before, I condemn all murders whether they are here, there or anywhere else. I have said so on many many occasions.

Of course I condemn the killings of the 3 Israelis, and the 10 Palestinians who have been killed in the same time.

As for posting on the events surrounding their deaths, and those of the Palestinians, I think you will find that I have posted plenty about all the deaths.

As for the graffitti, this has been springing up all across the West Bank in the past few days. It doesn't make great reading now does it?

You obviously don't know too much about me to compare me to some bigot on the Nolan show. Have a scroll through any of my posts and see if you can back up that comparison.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: All of a Sludden on July 02, 2014, 12:03:02 PM
Sinn Féin MEP Martina Anderson has today called for an international inquiry into the abduction and killing of three Israeli settlers.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 12:09:16 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 11:28:18 AM
In this case though, it does look like Israel are flaunting international law with regard to the settlements

They are not just flaunting it they are brazenly breaking it

Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 11:28:18 AM
Obviously, Israel and her people would need strong outside assurance that they will be not left out to dry by the international community, because there are those in that region who wish the state of Israel to disappear totally. (And the Israeli/Jewish people too probably).
well, that's the 64million dollar question isn't it ....who are the "international community" and what form would this assurance take ? How would it be enforced ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:11:54 PM
UN Peacekeepers, and a signed agreement that if Israel is attacked by outside agencies, without provocation, that there would be a combined military response and war declared against the other countries.

You would need USA, Russia and China on board, or at least neutral.

The other side of that agreement is that if Israel re-engages its illegal occupation, the same force would declare war on Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 12:14:48 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 11:28:18 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 11:19:07 AM
This is closer to the mark and applies to extremists on both sides, especially Seafoid and GHD

"Their cause, if they had one, is nothing to them now;
They hate for hate's sake. "

I think that becomes true of any conflict that goes on for a long time.

In this case though, it does look like Israel are flaunting international law with regard to the settlements, and that has to be the basis for any peace. Obviously, Israel and her people would need strong outside assurance that they will be not left out to dry by the international community, because there are those in that region who wish the state of Israel to disappear totally. (And the Israeli/Jewish people too probably).

AZ, with regards to the settlements, that has now become official Israeli policy. They want to keep on building and building, and it doesn't matter what laws they break, or who they piss off. During the last round of so called peace talks, they stuck 2 fingers up at the US by announcing continued building.

What we have to understand first and foremost in this situation is Zionism. That is what drives the Government, and the majority of Israeli's. They truely believe that "God gave them the land", and they are doing all in their power to get it back. It is often said that the only peace Israel wants is the piece of land called Palestine. Every Palestinian I have met just wants to live in peace, like their ancestors before them. On the other hand, Israel wants their land, and will not stop until they get it. Israel have never declared a border, and are unlikely too as they want to one day have their "Greater Israel" as promised to them.

As for wanting them to disappear, that is a well worn out phrase that they have been using against Iran. However, when you look at the maps of Palestine over the years, its quite clear who is wiping who off the map, and when you count the dead, it is also clear who is wiping who of the face of the earth.

Over the years we have seen the end of Fascism, Nazis, Apartheid, etc. It's now time we seen the end of Zionism. It is the single greatest threat to the region, the Palestinians, and to Israel itself.

(http://i.alalam.ir/news/Image/original/2013/11/02/alalam_635190044432435673_25f_4x3.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 02, 2014, 12:16:25 PM
'Our' troubles seem like a paintball experience to what is going on in the Middle East, fecking religion is the root of all evil there. In other countries it's money. As for the opposing posters on this site can you not find something closer to home to help solve rather than trying to fix something that's been going around for 1500 years?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:11:54 PM
UN Peacekeepers, and a signed agreement that if Israel is attacked by outside agencies, without provocation, that there would be a combined military response and war declared against the other countries.

You would need USA, Russia and China on board, or at least neutral.

The other side of that agreement is that if Israel re-engages its illegal occupation, the same force would declare war on Israel.

I fully agree with that proposal.

Lets try and get the two boyos on board
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 12:19:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 11:59:33 AM
Quote from: Bensars on July 02, 2014, 10:47:08 AM
Dixie, you are fond of posting articles on the event, yet in the last three days or so youve havent come out and condemned  the killing of the three young men ? 
If it was other way about you would be foaming at the mouth, articles, youtube clips, pictures etc.
Rather you prefer post pictures of fecking graffiti ?


You're no better than the bigot from the west from the province that is on the Nolan show every morning continually stirring the pot !

Bensars, as I have said continually before, I condemn all murders whether they are here, there or anywhere else. I have said so on many many occasions.

Of course I condemn the killings of the 3 Israelis, and the 10 Palestinians who have been killed in the same time.

As for posting on the events surrounding their deaths, and those of the Palestinians, I think you will find that I have posted plenty about all the deaths.

As for the graffitti, this has been springing up all across the West Bank in the past few days. It doesn't make great reading now does it?

You obviously don't know too much about me to compare me to some bigot on the Nolan show. Have a scroll through any of my posts and see if you can back up that comparison.

Bensars, if you really, truly want to get GHD to prove he is not a bigot ask him why he posts reviews from www.barnesreview.org

I'd really like to hear his answer...I've been waiting two months for it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:21:05 PM
I clicked on that link from work, and the internet content filter blocked it. Reason - Discrimination :D Not sure against whom.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 12:23:22 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:11:54 PM
UN Peacekeepers, and a signed agreement that if Israel is attacked by outside agencies, without provocation, that there would be a combined military response and war declared against the other countries.

You would need USA, Russia and China on board, or at least neutral.

The other side of that agreement is that if Israel re-engages its illegal occupation, the same force would declare war on Israel.
Israel would have to retreat to the Green Line and throw up a wall on it.
After that let them use their own diplomatic skills to sort things out .
Running apartheid is going to destroy Israel long term anyway.
The problem about "Israel being attacked without provocation" is that it takes 2 to tango. Israel has invaded Lebanon 7 times since 1948 and Egypt twice, without provocation.
Israel would have to be kept under a tight leash too.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on July 02, 2014, 12:03:02 PM
Sinn Féin MEP Martina Anderson has today called for an international inquiry into the abduction and killing of three Israeli settlers.

Indeed. Not only did she issue a statement condemning the killing of the 3 boys, but Sean Crowe did as well. They both stopped short in condemning Israel, and Martina didn't even bother to mention the Palestinians killed in Gaza.

They have to go easy now on the Palestinian solidarity as they as don't want to upset the flow of major cash from New York, and their pro Israeli friends.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 12:27:42 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:21:05 PM
I clicked on that link from work, and the internet content filter blocked it. Reason - Discrimination :D Not sure against whom.

yeah, sorry. I should have warned you.

Its really bad. Full on hitler was misunderstood, holocaust denial, anti-Semitic bile.

GHD has been completely silent for the last couple of months on this subject despite repeated requests that he clarify his position.

Anybody on gaaboard that takes him at his word on anything is a fool.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:28:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 12:23:22 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:11:54 PM
UN Peacekeepers, and a signed agreement that if Israel is attacked by outside agencies, without provocation, that there would be a combined military response and war declared against the other countries.

You would need USA, Russia and China on board, or at least neutral.

The other side of that agreement is that if Israel re-engages its illegal occupation, the same force would declare war on Israel.
Israel would have to retreat to the Green Line and throw up a wall on it.
After that let them use their own diplomatic skills to sort things out .
Running apartheid is going to destroy Israel long term anyway.
The problem about "Israel being attacked without provocation" is that it takes 2 to tango. Israel has invaded Lebanon 7 times since 1948 and Egypt twice, without provocation.
Israel would have to be kept under a tight leash too.


That's what I meant in my last line. Israel and the neighbouring states would all have to be on exactly the same leash. And I don't trust Israel (or its neighbour's) diplomatic skills. I think a long term peacekeeping force is needed to make sure the various lines are respected, and that force could only be removed when all sides have reached a point where they realise they can co-exist.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 12:29:17 PM
Henry Kissinger said he said he wished that the Bible had been written in Uganda.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:32:44 PM
We'd probably have the same situation there then. Actually some of the massacres in Africa make even the middle east problems pale in comparison.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 12:33:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:28:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 12:23:22 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:11:54 PM
UN Peacekeepers, and a signed agreement that if Israel is attacked by outside agencies, without provocation, that there would be a combined military response and war declared against the other countries.

You would need USA, Russia and China on board, or at least neutral.

The other side of that agreement is that if Israel re-engages its illegal occupation, the same force would declare war on Israel.
Israel would have to retreat to the Green Line and throw up a wall on it.
After that let them use their own diplomatic skills to sort things out .
Running apartheid is going to destroy Israel long term anyway.
The problem about "Israel being attacked without provocation" is that it takes 2 to tango. Israel has invaded Lebanon 7 times since 1948 and Egypt twice, without provocation.
Israel would have to be kept under a tight leash too.


That's what I meant in my last line. Israel and the neighbouring states would all have to be on exactly the same leash. And I don't trust Israel (or its neighbour's) diplomatic skills. I think a long term peacekeeping force is needed to make sure the various lines are respected, and that force could only be removed when all sides have reached a point where they realise they can co-exist.
A solution would have to be based on international law. Israel is beyond the law and has built up a massive risk on the back of it.
The notion that Israel can run the place militarily is nuts.  They risk going the same way as the Crusaders.


http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/brzezinski-the-syria-crisis-8636

"But in the long run, a hostile region like that cannot be policed, even by a nuclear-armed Israel. It will simply do to Israel what some of the wars have done to us on a smaller scale. Attrite it, tire it, fatigue it, demoralize it, cause emigration of the best and the first, and then some sort of cataclysm at the end which cannot be predicted at this stage because we don't know who will have what by when. And after all, Iran is next door. It might have some nuclear capability. Suppose the Israelis knock it off. What about Pakistan and others? The notion that one can control a region from a very strong and motivated country, but of only six million people, is simply a wild dream."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
You seem to be in agreement with what I'm saying. I'm not sure why you are posting as if you are disagreeing with me. :)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 12:49:52 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
You seem to be in agreement with what I'm saying. I'm not sure why you are posting as if you are disagreeing with me. :)

what he says on one day versus another day is different. What he says on here and what he says elsewhere is different. What he says and what he really believes in are different.

You'd have to go into a lot more detail and nail him down on specifics before you can truly say you are in agreement.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 12:54:16 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
You seem to be in agreement with what I'm saying. I'm not sure why you are posting as if you are disagreeing with me. :)
I just think the risks of Israel's current policies are much bigger than they understand. Running the occupation on the law of the jungle is actually really dangerous long term. And it matters how they treat the neighbours. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:56:17 PM
Agreement in principle then. :)

Israel should be made stay behind the borders set in 1967, under threat of force from the UN.
Palestine and other Arab states should not be allowed attack or threaten Israel, under threat of force from the UN.
We need peacekeepers in there to make sure this happens, because we can't trust Israel, Palestine, or any of the other states not to be opportunistic.

I know the devil is in the detail, but it seems to me most people on here agree with those 3 points?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:57:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 12:54:16 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
You seem to be in agreement with what I'm saying. I'm not sure why you are posting as if you are disagreeing with me. :)
I just think the risks of Israel's current policies are much bigger than they understand. Running the occupation on the law of the jungle is actually really dangerous long term. And it matters how they treat the neighbours.

True, but tangential, and not relevant to the scenario I painted above. In that scenario, Israel's current policies are irrelevant because they would be forced (emphasis on force) to adhere to the UN mandated boundaries.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 01:15:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:56:17 PM
Agreement in principle then. :)

Israel should be made stay behind the borders set in 1967, under threat of force from the UN.
Palestine and other Arab states should not be allowed attack or threaten Israel, under threat of force from the UN.
We need peacekeepers in there to make sure this happens, because we can't trust Israel, Palestine, or any of the other states not to be opportunistic.

I know the devil is in the detail, but it seems to me most people on here agree with those 3 points?

The US needs to step up to the plate. For too long they have been giving Israel financial and political cover. They now receive $3 billion per year in military aid, and every time that a resolution has gone before the UN security council critical of Israeli actions, the US has used their veto to stop any further action.

Sadly though, the Jewish lobby is far too big in the US for anything to change soon on that front.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 01:24:41 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:56:17 PM
Agreement in principle then. :)

Israel should be made stay behind the borders set in 1967, under threat of force from the UN.
Palestine and other Arab states should not be allowed attack or threaten Israel, under threat of force from the UN.
We need peacekeepers in there to make sure this happens, because we can't trust Israel, Palestine, or any of the other states not to be opportunistic.

I know the devil is in the detail, but it seems to me most people on here agree with those 3 points?

AZ, you have to question him on statements like this before believing that he truly means what he says

Quoteseafoid October 29, 2010 at 12:27 pm   
link to countercurrents.org
They will do anything to suppress dissent. Israel will have to be destroyed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 01:52:10 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 12:56:17 PM
Agreement in principle then. :)

Israel should be made stay behind the borders set in 1967, under threat of force from the UN.
Palestine and other Arab states should not be allowed attack or threaten Israel, under threat of force from the UN.
We need peacekeepers in there to make sure this happens, because we can't trust Israel, Palestine, or any of the other states not to be opportunistic.

I know the devil is in the detail, but it seems to me most people on here agree with those 3 points?
What would you do about the lobby in the States that ensures every time Israel violates international law the US veto at the UN is invoked?
Every single time the international community tries to restrain Israel the Yanks step in.
Israel is a very artificial state. It couldn't survive long without the military and diplomatic backup of the US  .
And even if we all agreed on what to do who is going to bring 750,000 Jewish settlers back to Israel ?

"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We'll insert a strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart." – Ariel Sharon to Winston Churchill III in 1973

Leaving your kids to run riot for the duration of their childhood is bad for their development. The lesson also applies to countries.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 01:57:38 PM
The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 01:57:38 PM
The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.
It has gone beyond the point where Zionism can manage the situation.
Best way forward would have been the 2 state solution but Israel destroyed it. Now it's one state with apartheid. Both peoples have rights to the land. Long term it'll be one state. The people can live together but only as equals.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 02, 2014, 03:53:02 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on July 02, 2014, 12:03:02 PM
Sinn Féin MEP Martina Anderson has today called for an international inquiry into the abduction and killing of three Israeli settlers.

I actually think that would be a good idea. The Israeli government is blaming Hamas and using that as an excuse to clamp down whereas everything I have read would seem to point to a few renegade  individuals acting on their own. If International monitors can show it was not "sanctioned" it gives the Israeli Government one less excuse. At a minimum it puts International observers on the ground in the area to bear independent witness what is happening.


Meanwhile the families of the three murdered Israeli teenagers also issued a statement condemning the latest killing. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28132888

"If the Arab youth was murdered because of nationalistic motives then this is a horrible and horrendous act," it said.

"There is no difference between Arab blood and Jewish blood. Murder is murder. There is no forgiveness or justification for any murder."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 04:14:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 01:57:38 PM
The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.
It has gone beyond the point where Zionism can manage the situation.
Best way forward would have been the 2 state solution but Israel destroyed it. Now it's one state with apartheid. Both peoples have rights to the land. Long term it'll be one state. The people can live together but only as equals.

So what is the end game in your eyes? A single state called Palestine where the Israelis have the same rights as Palestinians, no more, no less?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 05:41:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 04:14:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 01:57:38 PM
The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.
It has gone beyond the point where Zionism can manage the situation.
Best way forward would have been the 2 state solution but Israel destroyed it. Now it's one state with apartheid. Both peoples have rights to the land. Long term it'll be one state. The people can live together but only as equals.

So what is the end game in your eyes? A single state called Palestine where the Israelis have the same rights as Palestinians, no more, no less?
Yeah. It's too late for 2 states. And I think Judaism can do way better than Zionism.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 02, 2014, 06:22:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 05:41:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 04:14:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 01:57:38 PM
The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.
It has gone beyond the point where Zionism can manage the situation.
Best way forward would have been the 2 state solution but Israel destroyed it. Now it's one state with apartheid. Both peoples have rights to the land. Long term it'll be one state. The people can live together but only as equals.

So what is the end game in your eyes? A single state called Palestine where the Israelis have the same rights as Palestinians, no more, no less?
Yeah. It's too late for 2 states. And I think Judaism can do way better than Zionism.

yes, all the evidence shows that people like you would respect and protect the rights of a jewish minority in a binational state  ::)

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 07:59:25 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.602675

The secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva, Rabbi Noam Perel, called for revenge of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens, the bodies of whom were found Monday.
"An entire nation and thousands of years of history demand revenge," Perel posted on his Facebook page, shortly after the bodies were found.
"The government of Israel is gathering for a revenge meeting that isn't a grief meeting. The landlord has gone mad at the sight of his sons' bodies. A government that turns the army of searchers to an army of avengers, an army that will not stop at 300 Philistine foreskins," Perel wrote, alluding to the biblical tale of David, who killed 200 Philistines and gave their foreskins to King Saul as the bride price for his daughter.
"The disgrace will be paid for with the blood of the enemy, not with our tears," Perel concluded.
Perel posted the same message in a Facebook group of World Bnei Akiva envoys.

Perel, 44, has been the secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva since 2012. A Zionist-religious youth movement, World Bnei Akiva has over 150 branches in dozens of countries worldwide. According to the movement's website, it is dedicated to fighting "intermarriage and social assimilation" by encouraging immigration to Israel, by "deepening Jewish identity" and by "strengthening and connecting the Jewish nation abroad to the values of religious-Zionism and the state of Israel."

Dozens of social media groups calling for revenge of the murders of teens have been launched in the last two days, after the bodies were found. One of them, a Facebook group named "The people of Israel demands revenge," has already raked in over 35,000 likes.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 02, 2014, 10:20:24 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 02, 2014, 10:55:47 AM
Every time something like this happens, Israel reacts like a frenzied pack of wild dogs. Why do they do that? They behave like animals.

And knowing this, why do Palestinian groups do stuff like this, knowing that their civilians will suffer the most.

It's an awful situation that I think only a united international force can solve, but without a real will (not mealy mouthed horse shite) there to do that, it's just going to continue being a cesspit until eventually the Israelis destroy the Palestinians, or all the Arab states declare war on Israel.

This is the point I was making weeks ago. Bringing wild bloodthirsty dogs into the community is hardly the behaviour of sane people, never mind heroes.

The language used by both the Israeli leadership and Hamas in the last few days is beyond offensive. I would love to see them locked in a cage together, equally armed, for the rest of their shameful lives.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 02, 2014, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 07:59:25 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.602675

The secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva, Rabbi Noam Perel, called for revenge of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens, the bodies of whom were found Monday.
"An entire nation and thousands of years of history demand revenge," Perel posted on his Facebook page, shortly after the bodies were found.
"The government of Israel is gathering for a revenge meeting that isn't a grief meeting. The landlord has gone mad at the sight of his sons' bodies. A government that turns the army of searchers to an army of avengers, an army that will not stop at 300 Philistine foreskins," Perel wrote, alluding to the biblical tale of David, who killed 200 Philistines and gave their foreskins to King Saul as the bride price for his daughter.
"The disgrace will be paid for with the blood of the enemy, not with our tears," Perel concluded.
Perel posted the same message in a Facebook group of World Bnei Akiva envoys.

Perel, 44, has been the secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva since 2012. A Zionist-religious youth movement, World Bnei Akiva has over 150 branches in dozens of countries worldwide. According to the movement's website, it is dedicated to fighting "intermarriage and social assimilation" by encouraging immigration to Israel, by "deepening Jewish identity" and by "strengthening and connecting the Jewish nation abroad to the values of religious-Zionism and the state of Israel."

Dozens of social media groups calling for revenge of the murders of teens have been launched in the last two days, after the bodies were found. One of them, a Facebook group named "The people of Israel demands revenge," has already raked in over 35,000 likes.

More one sided bull from Seafood. Did I not hear hamas threaten to open the gates of hell to Israel in the past week. Any sane person can see that there are cowardly murdering scum on both sides and fools like you cheering on one side does nothing for any pragmatic solution.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 11:28:56 PM
Family of murdered Palestinian teen speaks out as riots grip neighbourhood

The family of 16-year-old murdered Palestinian, Mohammed Abu Khdeir stood and watched in horror today, as they heard news that Khdeir had been abducted and later killed, and then as they saw their neighbourhood erupt into some of the worst violence witnessed in years.

According to the Red Cross at least 65 people have been injured in clashes that broke out after Khdeir's charred body was discovered in Jerusalem Forest, west of the city, on Wednesday morning.

Police fear more protests will break out tomorrow and are also preparing for large-scale unrest on Friday after afternoon prayers, as the cycle of violence threatens to get even more out of control.

Details of what happened remain unclear, but after a day of suspense, sources told Middle East Eye that the Israeli authorities are planning to release the body to his family, having decided that Khdeir's murder was nationalist-inspired.

However, Israeli police deny that they have made any official ruling as yet.

The ambiguity has further heightened tensions and left Khdeir's family complaining of the inability to get protection or justice.

A man who said he was Khdeir's cousin, calling himself Nick, told Middle East Eye that he was standing close by when people who appeared to be Jewish settlers jumped out of a vehicle and approached Mohammed, who was about to attend morning prayers Shuafat Street mosque.

They approached Khdeir casually but then jumped him and shoved him into the car before speeding off.

"They asked him for a lighter then they put gas in his eyes. He's a small guy," said Nick.

"They took him, and we called police, we left the police to see the security cameras here, because there a lot all around. They said we need to prove someone took him, and that they weren't sure of our story."

Later this morning police found a badly burned body to the west of the city in Jerusalem Forest but say they're unsure if there's a connection between the two.

Police in East Jerusalem have since refused to release security camera footage that could shed light on the kidnapping.

Another cousin, 30 year-old Mohammed Abu Khdeir, who shares the same name as the slain teen, said that the boy's father, Hussein Abu Khdeir was held by police all day and would not be allowed to go until after his son's body was released.

The family, however, couldn't say why Khdeir's father was being held, although rumours were circulating widely among the community that the police had been trying to get Hussein to sign a waiver saying that the family had killed him.

He told MEE that there was no planned date yet for the funeral, as the family, which is the biggest in Shuaftar, was waiting for Khdeir's remains to be returned.

According to Khdeir's cousin, the teen's mother, Suha, had waited at home all day to see if the remains were her sons, even though the family had been warned that the body was burnt beyond recognition.
Shock in Shuaftar

"The kidnapping and murder is in retaliation to the deaths of those three Israeli teenagers a couple of weeks ago. There's so much tension and pressure from all sides today, it's very tense, and it's a tragedy to see the tension between us and the soldiers," Nick said.

Three Israeli settler teens were abducted earlier this month and were found dead late Monday. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed revenge and blamed Hamas initially for their disappearance and later for their killing.

But, despite the widespread outpouring of grief for the killed settler teens and the cycle of violence which has been sparked by their disappearance, one of Mohammed's best friends, Alladin Ammouri, clearly found it difficult to keep his pain and anger from showing:

"First of all they tortured him. Then he was beaten up. Then he was set ablaze, in the early hours. These are our lives, we're trying to live them," he said.

"The press is lying, saying it's a fight between families. It's not. It's a fight with the police."

Further down the road in the centre of Beit Hanina, one man Middle East Eye spoke to wanted to remain anonymous, but was unequivocal about what had happened.

"The Israelis killed a Palestinian boy. The Israeli's did it. Things are getting very tense around here. It's not safe, be careful."

The uncertainty and outrage quickly spiralled into riots, with some 200 Palestinians taking to the streets of Shuaftar to demand action. They threw stones, while Israeli security services responded with rubber bullets and according to some reports live ammunition, although this could not be independently verified. Tear gas quickly filled the streets, as the local tram stop was set alight and nearby glass shattered.

Parts of the normally busy neighbourhood not enveloped by the violence, came to resemble a ghost town as the tram was shut off, and the Israeli Army put up barriers around the area to "prevent Jews accidentally walking down here" according to police.

A police helicopter was also hovering overhead all day, and medics were on hand to treat the wounded, who kept pouring in throughout the afternoon.

"We've got a friend who died, they took him, and they killed him. This is what we get. We're supposed to have done that," said Ammouri.

"It's Ramadan at the moment and we just hope those who are taking part in Friday prayers on the Temple Mount will come peacefully and respectfully," Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told MEE.

He said police were experienced in handling clashes and only responded to rioters with non-lethal weapons including stun grenades.

"At the moment we've maintained the situation and the only incidents are the ones you see here in  Shuaftar area, but the rest of Jerusalem is quiet as is the rest of the country, so as far as we're concerned everything is under control."

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to investigate the murder, while condolences from international leaders have poured in.

US Secretary of State John Kerry quickly condemned the killing, labelling it "despicable and senseless," he said while appealing for calm and urging both sides to exercise restraint.

But despite the words of calm, rockets continued to fly on Wednesday, as authorities prepared themselves for further protests from both Palestinians and Israelis and civilian populations on both sides prepared themselves for the possibility of further reprisals.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/family-murdered-palestinian-teen-speaks-out-riots-grip-neighbourhood/977600580#sthash.aJRtphID.dpuf

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 02, 2014, 11:36:35 PM
Report: Israel detained 3,000 Palestinian children since 2010

Israeli forces arrested nearly 3,000 Palestinian children from the beginning of 2010 to mid-2014, the majority of them between the ages of 12 and 15 years old, Addustour newspaper published a new report saying yesterday.

The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network (EMHRN)'s report documented dozens of video recorded testimonies of children arrested during the first months of 2014, pointing out that 75 per cent of the detained children are subjected to physical torture and 25 per cent faced military trials.

The report revealed details of the children's suffering, starting with the arbitrary arrests which are in violation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child to which Israel ratified in 1991. The report listed a series of violations practiced by Israeli forces against children during the arrest process itself, where the Israeli forces raid the children's homes aftermidnight as they sleep using actions that terrorise the child and his family, without clear justification or an actual security need.

The Geneva-based watchdog said: "The majority of the detained children were subjected to threats and physical torture including beatings during the investigation. The Israeli authorities responsible for the investigation often use 'isolation' against one in every five detained children, as a means of pressure during the investigations which may extend to 10 days on average and up to 30 days in some cases."

During the "isolation", the report points out, the investigating authorities place the child alone in "narrow cells" and do not allow anyone to meet him, including in some cases his lawyer.

The organisation called on international bodies and human rights organisations to stop Israeli violations against Palestinian children and stressed on the need for Israeli authorities to hold the children's trials in the occupied Palestinian territories to give their families and lawyers the opportunity to meet them and accompany them during the interrogations and to ensure that they are not subjected to torture, and to provide them with fair compensation in case it is demonstrated that their detention was arbitrary.

It called on all parties who have signed the Geneva Convention and related international institutions to "practice the largest possible pressure against Israel, including denying it from financial agreements and aid to immediately stop its human rights violations".

EMHRN researcher Sandra Owen said that at least 1,406 Palestinian children have been killed since 2000, including 263 children under the age of eight and 450 children under the age of 15.

Over the past three weeks, the Israeli army raid more than 1,500 Palestinian homes and places of business and arrested more than 600 Palestinians following the apparent disappearance of three settlers in Hebron.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/12500-report-israel-detains-3000-palestinian-children-annually
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 12:07:48 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 02, 2014, 07:59:25 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.602675

The secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva, Rabbi Noam Perel, called for revenge of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens, the bodies of whom were found Monday.
"An entire nation and thousands of years of history demand revenge," Perel posted on his Facebook page, shortly after the bodies were found.

you constantly cite religious extremists on the Israeli side as if this justifies your extremism. Anybody can pick and choose from the words of extremists. Below are some quotes from the Hamas charter........and those are just from their official charter. That is nothing compared to what various crackpot have said. Do really think what some crackpot Mullah says is "evidence" of what muslims think in general? The answer , according to most right thinking people is no. However, as we all know, you are not a good faith actor. Your agenda is to stir up hatred of jews. Period.



http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397 (http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397)


QuoteIsrael will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.

QuoteFor our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails.

QuoteThe time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

Quotea woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband's authorization, and a slave without his masters' permission.
(yes..they still believe in slavery  ::))

Quote[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion;

QuoteIsrael, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.  "Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep."

QuoteThe members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions.

QuoteOnly when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the best proof of what is said there.
(yes, they cite a completely fabricated document in their charter  ::))
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 08:25:22 AM
Hamas and the Israeli army need each other. 
That Hamas rhetoric reminds me of Syferus bigging up Roscommon.

It's as bad as Netanyahu drawing attention to the morality of Zionism

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602742
Netanyahu on Tuesday compared Jews to Arabs, saying, "a deep and wide moral chasm separates us from our enemies: They sanctify death, and we, life; they sanctify cruelty, while we [sanctify] mercy."


The bigger issue is apartheid and Israel's drift ever rightward 
and what it all means for Judaism
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 08:35:14 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 08:25:22 AM
Hamas and the Israeli army need each other. 
That Hamas rhetoric reminds me of Syferus bigging up Roscommon.


The bigger issue is apartheid and Israel's drift ever rightward.

Really, so the side that calls for the destruction of the other side are the "nicer" guys are they ? How about you simply apply your condemnation of extremist views equally and unequivocally ?

Then again, since you yourself have called for the destruction of Israel (and have yet to withdraw or clarify the remark) it should be no surprise to anyone
that you are a fellow traveller of Hamas.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 08:42:00 AM
I think the big risk is that Israeli society loses the plot. The Hamas charter is appalling but it is neither here nor there in terms of the dynamics of the system.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602742
"Bullies and right-wingers who take it upon themselves to "punish" innocent Arabs make a mockery of the effort to conduct a focused battle against terror operatives while also insulting the families of the murdered Israeli teens and the public that shares their grief. The biggest concern is that these gangs will dictate the government's mood and pressure it into taking extreme and showy measures to satisfy their desire for revenge. From there it's but a short road to widespread outbreaks of violence and a total loss of control. "

Chemi Shalev
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/.premium-1.602697

"And hovering above all of this are Benjamin Netanyahu and his government, who persist in portraying our conflict with the Palestinians in stark terms of black and white, good versus evil; who describe Israel's adversaries as incorrigible and irredeemable; who have never shown the slightest sign of empathy or understanding for the plight of the people who have lived under Israeli occupation for nearly half a century; whose pronouncements serve to dehumanize the Palestinians in the eyes of the Israeli public; who perpetuate the public's sense of isolation and injustice; and who thus can be said to be paving the way for the waves of homicidal hatred that are now coming to light.  Some people will draw a parallel between the ugly right wing violence that swept Israel after the Oslo Accords and today's rising tide of dangerous racism, implicating Netanyahu in both: from his fiery anti-government speeches in Zion Square to Yitzhak Rabin's assassination and from his harsh anti-Palestinian rhetoric to the outburst of horrid racism today. But that is an easy out. It is not Netanyahu who is to blame, it is the rest of us, Jews in Israel as well as those in the Diaspora, those who turn a blind eye and those who choose to look the other way, those who portray the Palestinians as inhuman monsters and those who view any self-criticism as an act of Jewish betrayal. "



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:48:26 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brkzs5FCAAANFLg.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:48:26 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brkzs5FCAAANFLg.jpg)

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602742
Netanyahu on Tuesday compared Jews to Arabs, saying, "a deep and wide moral chasm separates us from our enemies: They sanctify death, and we, life; they sanctify cruelty, while we [sanctify] mercy."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:59:12 AM
A new facebook page titled "The People of Israel Demand Revenge", managed to gain over 32,000 "likes" in about 24 hours.Young Israelis post photos of themselves on this page calling for revenge against Palestinians. Among those young Israelis are soldiers, many of them from units that serve in the occupied Palestinian territories. All the photos in this post were taken from that facebook page. Expressing political opinion and taking photos inside army bases is strictly prohibited under IDF rules, which it the reason most of the soldiers covered or didn't show their faces.

Click on this link to see the disturbing images

http://muddleast.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/israeli-soldiers-call-for-revenge-against-palestinians/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 12:01:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 08:42:00 AM
I think the big risk is that Israeli society loses the plot. The Hamas charter is appalling but it is neither here nor there in terms of the dynamics of the system.

So you are saying that the fact that Hamas regularly commit attacks and have stated their desire to destroy Israel is neither her nor there "in terms of the dynamics of the system"

You are either clueless or deliberately lying as to what you truly believe.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 12:06:53 PM
Netanyahu's comparison of civilized Israeli Jews with savage Palestinians goes back a long way in colonial practice. Giraldus Cambrensis was a Welsh propagandist in the 12 century who wrote that "the Irish were so barbarous that they cannot be said to have any culture. A wild and inhospitable people who live like beasts and are devoted to laziness as well as barbarian, treacherous and vicious" 


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 12:15:04 PM
This is a very good article on the mental blockages that mean Israelis are not interested in peace

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601122

"1) Loss aversion
In the 1980s, Israeli psychologists Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman single-handedly changed the psychology of decision making by showing that a number of powerful factors create systematic biases in how we decide. One of their most famous theorems is that humans are guided by loss aversion. We are often in situations in which we have to weigh the potential loss of something we currently have against what is to be potentially gained by taking a certain risk. They have shown that we are far more guided by fear of loss than by the prospect of gain.
Loss aversion plays a crucial role in Israel's reluctance to move toward peace. Israel currently has a number of assets that it stands to lose in any peace agreement acceptable to the Palestinians. It has full security control over Area C and the all-important Jordan Valley, partial control over Area B, and the de-facto option of incursions into Area A if Israel's security establishment wants to prevent attacks against Israel from one of the Palestinian population centers. Israel, at least on paper, has control over the greater Jerusalem area, including the various holy sites, as well as over a variety of sites in Judea and Samaria that play a great role in the Bible. Israel stands to lose all of these in any future peace agreement with the Palestinians.
Of course, much is to be gained from peace. Since Israel's founding, Israelis have been singing that one day we will be able to live here in peace. Ostensibly, any peace agreement will require the Palestinians to declare an end to the conflict and that they have no further demands. Add to this that the Arab Peace Initiative would add peace and full recognition by the Islamic world.
On paper, the gains outweigh the losses dramatically. The occupation has pushed Israel into ever-growing international isolation. The threat from the BDS Movement against Israel has been gaining momentum and is beginning to become more concrete. Israel's economy could flourish enormously if the Arab world's financial assets and natural resources were to be combined with Israel's technological and managerial know-how.
But Israelis, like all humans, are primarily guided by loss aversion. Most Israelis fear that the Gaza scenario will repeat itself: Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and southern Israel was exposed to rocket attacks for years. Israel's relinquishment of security control over the West Bank would open Israel's population centers to the same danger. The latter scenario is not a paranoid fantasy. Iraq and Syria have become hotbeds of jihadist organizations, and if Israel no longer controls the Jordan Valley and large parts of the West Bank, Al-Qaida fighters might indeed come within shooting distance of Tel Aviv, Kfar Sava, Herzliya and all of Israel's center.
Research has shown that most Israelis have come to loathe the term "peace." The idea of real peace, not only with the Palestinians but also with the Arab world, seems like a science-fiction scenario entertained by dreamy leftists. As opposed to that, almost all Israelis remember the horrors of the second intifada and the shelling of Israel from Gaza and Lebanon. The majority of Israelis, therefore, feel that the loss of security is far more concrete than the gain of something they do not believe in.
Loss aversion is even more pronounced in politicians. They are only rewarded for positive results that emerge before the next elections, and they are severely punished for immediate negative results. The fate of Israel's left, which was virtually wiped out after the failure of the Camp David summit in 2000 and the onset of the second intifada, is an indelible warning for every politician, who fears a brutal end to his or her political career if a peace agreement leads to further violence. As opposed to this, the gains of such peace seem abstract, distant and insecure.
2) The need to justify the occupation
One of Israel's most respected writers, David Grossman, once wrote that, behind the deafening noise of shrill political rhetoric, in every Israeli and Palestinian's soul there is a dark, silent place in which they know all of the horrible suffering of this conflict was utterly futile and useless. It is psychologically almost impossible to realize and accept that you have been mistaken for decades, and that the horrors of the past could have been avoided.
The former Shin Bet security service chiefs interviewed in Dror Moreh's poignant documentary "The Gatekeepers" all describe the moral price of the occupation – for example, of causing Palestinians to turn against their own people and collaborate with Israel. Moreh's interviewees are the exception rather than the norm. They have the human strength to say that their jobs made them do terrible things. For most humans, it is almost impossible to do terrible things and live with the realization that these acts were immoral.
Almost every Israeli in the last 47 years has done military service in the territories. Almost all of them have had to do things that go against human decency and morality – often not for the sake of Israel's security at large, but to protect some isolated outpost of settlers. If indeed Israel were to reach peace with the Palestinians and the Arab world, most Israelis would have to live with the painful realization that most of what Israel has done to the Palestinians was unnecessary; that Israel could have ended the occupation a long time ago; and that the energies and resources invested in the West Bank's colonization could have been invested in Israel's flourishing instead.
This idea is too difficult to bear, and the regret would be unendurable. It is, therefore, psychologically imperative to create a narrative that explains why the occupation was inevitable; why Israel had no choice but to hang onto the West Bank; why all the sacrifice in human lives, moral turpitude and political isolation were necessary for Israel's survival.
Israel's right-wing politicians instinctively know they need to reassert daily that the occupation is a military and moral necessity. This is why they keep explaining why a Palestinian state is an existential threat to Israel, and why Israel's left has been selling empty illusions for decades. Of course, their case has been strengthened enormously by the second intifada and the shelling of southern Israel. But the constant fanning of fear not only serves Israel's right politically. It also provides Israelis with a justification not only for the status quo, but for the expropriation, oppression and humiliation of Palestinians that Israelis have participated in for the last 47 years, to preserve the occupation.
All of this is all-too-human. Only a few have the human strength of Moreh's interviewees to look into the camera and say: "We did terrible things, and most of them could have been avoided if only the political leadership had realized that the occupation is Israel's catastrophe." Most Israelis, like most humans, need a narrative that justifies Israel's actions as inevitable.
3) Inability to let go of Zionism as a revolutionary movement
This leads to the third psychological level. The history of Israel's occupation and gradual colonization of the West Bank cannot be understood without the religious-Zionist movement that emerged from the 1967 war. The students of Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook interpreted Israel's victory in the Six-Day War as the onset of the Messianic Age. Every hill, stone and village in what they call Judea and Samaria acquired theological meaning, and every new settlement had metaphysical significance. Israel was not occupying another people: It was fulfilling God's plan for the Jewish people, and for humanity as a whole, by speeding up messianic redemption.
Most Israelis do not share this messianic interpretation of the occupation. But deep down, many Israelis feel that the settlers are the real Zionists; that the rest of us have become complacent, ordinary citizens who have lost the revolutionary ardor that once characterized the Zionist movement. The settlers continue the ethos of acre after acre, of settling the land and building the country.
This, I believe, is part of Israelis' enormous difficulty in stopping the settlers in their drive to undermine the last remaining chance for the two-state solution. Somehow, Israelis feel that if there is no deeper meaning for our being here, the suffering, danger and insecurity were not worth the while. While Israelis may not fully share the settlers' ideology, many admire them and feel that the settlers provide a laudable model to justify the whole Zionist project.
The instability of the Middle East and the Arab Spring's disintegration into chaos have made Israel's situation more difficult. Chances that Israel will live in safety and "normality" in the coming decades are slim. To bear all this, many Israelis feel there must be a metaphysical justification for the Zionist project. Otherwise, deep down, they wonder: Was the whole project worth the pain, the trouble and the ongoing risk? "
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on July 03, 2014, 12:20:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 12:06:53 PM
Netanyahu's comparison of civilized Israeli Jews with savage Palestinians goes back a long way in colonial practice. Giraldus Cambrensis was a Welsh propagandist in the 12 century who wrote that "the Irish were so barbarous that they cannot be said to have any culture. A wild and inhospitable people who live like beasts and are devoted to laziness as well as barbarian, treacherous and vicious"

Giraldus didnt think much of the local talent

"Duvenald, king of Limerick, had a woman with a beard down to her navel, and also, a crest like a colt of a year old, which reached from the top of her neck down her backbone, and was covered with hair. The woman, thus remarkable for two monstrous deformities, was, however, not an hermaphrodite, but in other respects had the parts of a woman; and she constantly attended the court, an object of ridicule as well as of wonder. The fact of her spine being covered with hair, neither determined her gender to be male or female; and in wearing a long beard she followed the customs of her country, though it was unnatural in her. Also, within our time, a woman was seen attending the court in Connaught, who partook of the nature of both sexes, and was an hermaphrodite. On the right side of her face she had a long and thick beard, which covered both sides of her lips to the middle of her chin, like a man; on the left, her lips and chin were smooth and hairless, like a woman"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 03, 2014, 12:20:22 PM
Where or how does one begin to quantify tragedy and inhumanity due to human conflict?

Must one always support one side in a deadly game of life and death?Therefore further fueling the hatred and killing.

There are many critical humanitarian crisis due to war and corrupt governance throughout the world especially the Muslim/Islamic/African world.

Which must take precedent?? Who's agenda catch's the populist support of full time campaigners in countries like Ireland?
Which one is fashionable for the 'People that try to make a difference'?


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 03, 2014, 12:54:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:48:26 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brkzs5FCAAANFLg.jpg)

So a 17 year old Palestinian is a child but 2 16 year old Israelis are illegal settlers!

I would draw no distinction. All murders are to be condemned equally and I know you have done so GHD. However the semantics of spin mean that the message is lost as we search for the alternatives behind the message.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 04:05:40 PM
11 injured in multiple Israeli airstrikes on Gaza

Eleven Palestinians were injured overnight Wednesday as Israel attacked 15 targets in the Gaza Strip, medics said.

Gaza health ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qidra said 11 Palestinians were hospitalized following multiple airstrikes, including a 17-year-old boy who sustained shrapnel wounds near Gaza City.

Another airstrike targeted a Hamas training base west of Gaza City, with an elderly woman and teenage girl sustaining injuries in the northern Gaza Strip.

Three airstrikes targeted Hamas training bases in the al-Shujaiyya neighborhood of Gaza City and the city of Beit Hanoun, while a further three airstrikes targeted an area near the former PA intelligence headquarters in northern Gaza.

In southern Gaza, an airstrike targeted a military base belonging to Hamas near Rafah.

Israel's army said it carried out strikes against 15 Hamas targets in Gaza "including concealed rocket launchers, weapon storage facilities and terror activity sites."

Twenty rockets were fired at Israel since Wednesday, Israel's army said, with one hitting a home in the city of Sderot, with no injuries reported.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=709615
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 04:08:33 PM
Israel demolishes eight West Bank homes


Israeli bulldozers destroyed eight houses early Thursday in a northeastern West Bank village, Palestinian media reported.

News agency WAFA quoted mayor Sami Sadeq as saying that 20 bulldozers demolished the homes in the town of al-Aqabah.

The homes were built using tin and burlap some 20 years ago. Sadeq also noted that the occupying forces had never threatened to destroy the facilities.

Usually Israeli soldiers demolish homes under the pretext that they were built without a permit after issuing notices to the tenants.

Roughly 94 percent of Palestinian applications for building permits are rejected, according to the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions.

The group estimates that Israeli authorities have demolished about 27,000 Palestinian structures in the West Bank since 1967.

Thursday's home demolitions comes amid an ongoing crackdown on Palestinians in the aftermath of the killing of three Israeli settlers whose bodies were discovered in field near Hebron on Monday.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/israel-demolishes-eight-west-bank-homes
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 04:14:07 PM
Govt warns Irish citizens against investing in occupied Palestinian territories

The Government has advised Irish citizens against investing or doing any business with firms in the occupied Palestinian territories of Arab East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza.

The advice also applies to Syria's Golan heights, which Israel also captured in the Six-Day War of 1967.

The move is in line with many other EU countries and the advice has recently been issued by the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands and Portugal.

In a statement, the Department of Foreign Affairs said Ireland and its EU Partners have a clear position on Israeli settlements.

It said: "The West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Gaza and the Golan Heights are territories which have been occupied by Israel since 1967.

"Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, constitute an obstacle to peace and threaten to make a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict impossible.

"The EU and its Member States will not recognise any changes to the pre-1967 borders, including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties."

It goes on to say that financial transactions, investments, purchases, as other economic activities, including tourism, in Israeli settlements or benefiting Israeli settlements carry legal and economic risks.

This stems from the fact that the Israeli settlements, according to international law, are built on occupied land and are not recognised as a legitimate part of Israel's territory.

The department said potential buyers and investors should be aware that a future peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians, or between Israel and Syria, could have consequences for property they purchase or economic activities they promote in these settlements.

In case of disputes, the department says it could be very difficult to ensure national protection of their interests.

Israel captured the occupied Palestinian territories and the Golan Heights in the Six-Day War.

An estimated 300,000 Palestinians were displaced from the West Bank and Gaza as a result of the war.

Settlements are viewed as illegal by the international community and many view Israel's building of settlements as a means of colonising the land it has captured.

Israel has already de-facto annexed part of its 1967 gains: the Golan Heights  and East Jerusalem, which the Palestinians want as their capital.

Neither move has been recognised internationally.

Construction of new Jewish homes in the West Bank rose 123% year-on-year in 2013.

This surge coincided with peace talks that faltered earlier this year.

Successive Israeli governments have said the blocs, illegal under international law, should remain part of Israel in any negotiated deal with the Palestinians.

However, the Geneva Convention states "the Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies".

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0703/628310-govt-israel/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 03, 2014, 04:21:18 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:48:26 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brkzs5FCAAANFLg.jpg)

It's a tragic situation....but these Hamas animals launch rockets from school rooftops, give Palestinian teenagers guns to take potshots at Israeli Soldiers, encourage rioting in kids as young as 5 and 6. The. Tell them all that they go to heaven if they die

While the Israelis are undoubtedly a pack of cvnts, those numbers you quote are flat out propaganda

(In Iraq, Al Quada would force a 4 year old to run out in front of an American Humvee. The Americans jam on the brakes, and then while they're sitting there, get an RPG fired at them. The Americans then just ran right anyone who walked in front of their vehicles. I'm sure these were classified as "murders" too!  I heard this first hand from someone who did 2 tours there)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 05:06:47 PM
Whitey, I wish those figures wern't true, but sadly, they are.

During Operation Cast Lead, 400 children were killed in just 21 days.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 03, 2014, 05:21:00 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 05:06:47 PM
Whitey, I wish those figures wern't true, but sadly, they are.

During Operation Cast Lead, 400 children were killed in just 21 days.

It's terrible....but since the time of the caveman there has been conflict between humans

My point is that there's wrong on both sides....not just the Israeli side which seems to be the consensus view on this board

I have an old neighbor who's a senior UN Peacekeeper and I have heard first hand about what goes on over there. Conversely, a young fella at my gym had 2 brothers serving in the IDF, so I heard that side too.  There's 2 sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between


http://rt.com/news/un-hamas-idf-video-166/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 03, 2014, 05:21:00 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 05:06:47 PM
Whitey, I wish those figures wern't true, but sadly, they are.

During Operation Cast Lead, 400 children were killed in just 21 days.

It's terrible....but since the time of the caveman there has been conflict between humans

My point is that there's wrong on both sides....not just the Israeli side which seems to be the consensus view on this board

I have an old neighbor who's a senior UN Peacekeeper and I have heard first hand about what goes on over there. Conversely, a young fella at my gym had 2 brothers serving in the IDF, so I heard that side too.  There's 2 sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between


http://rt.com/news/un-hamas-idf-video-166/
Israel has been occupying Gaza and the West Bank for almost 50 years. The only way to keep it going is to kill Palestinians and moan to the West about anti-Semitism. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: thebigfella on July 03, 2014, 06:16:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 03, 2014, 05:21:00 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 05:06:47 PM
Whitey, I wish those figures wern't true, but sadly, they are.

During Operation Cast Lead, 400 children were killed in just 21 days.

It's terrible....but since the time of the caveman there has been conflict between humans

My point is that there's wrong on both sides....not just the Israeli side which seems to be the consensus view on this board

I have an old neighbor who's a senior UN Peacekeeper and I have heard first hand about what goes on over there. Conversely, a young fella at my gym had 2 brothers serving in the IDF, so I heard that side too.  There's 2 sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between


http://rt.com/news/un-hamas-idf-video-166/
Israel has been occupying Gaza and the West Bank for almost 50 years. The only way to keep it going is to kill Palestinians and moan to the West about anti-Semitism.

So say anti-Semitic's such as yourself. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 06:42:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 03, 2014, 05:21:00 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 05:06:47 PM
Whitey, I wish those figures wern't true, but sadly, they are.

During Operation Cast Lead, 400 children were killed in just 21 days.

It's terrible....but since the time of the caveman there has been conflict between humans

My point is that there's wrong on both sides....not just the Israeli side which seems to be the consensus view on this board

I have an old neighbor who's a senior UN Peacekeeper and I have heard first hand about what goes on over there. Conversely, a young fella at my gym had 2 brothers serving in the IDF, so I heard that side too.  There's 2 sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between


http://rt.com/news/un-hamas-idf-video-166/
Israel has been occupying Gaza and the West Bank for almost 50 years. The only way to keep it going is to kill Palestinians and moan to the West about anti-Semitism.

Seafoid, you have said in the past (on mondoweiss) that you are in contact with Israelis. The implication seemed to be that you were in contact with Israeli groups involved in opposing the occupation. I was just wondering if you say to them all the things you say about Israelis on here ?

Also, I recall You relating some anecdotal stories about what such and such an Israeli said to you. If I recall correctly it was in a canteen at work ?  Would I be correct in saying that you work for a company that does business in Israel ?

How do you square this with your support for BDS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions)

Obviously you don't need to give details, just a yes/no on whether you work with a company that does business in Israel will do.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 07:05:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 03, 2014, 04:21:18 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:48:26 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brkzs5FCAAANFLg.jpg)

It's a tragic situation....but these Hamas animals launch rockets from school rooftops, give Palestinian teenagers guns to take potshots at Israeli Soldiers, encourage rioting in kids as young as 5 and 6. The. Tell them all that they go to heaven if they die

While the Israelis are undoubtedly a pack of cvnts, those numbers you quote are flat out propaganda

(In Iraq, Al Quada would force a 4 year old to run out in front of an American Humvee. The Americans jam on the brakes, and then while they're sitting there, get an RPG fired at them. The Americans then just ran right anyone who walked in front of their vehicles. I'm sure these were classified as "murders" too!  I heard this first hand from someone who did 2 tours there)

Whitey, as someone who has lived on and off in the US for 20 years I am cognisant of the differing views on the Invasion of Iraq but, ultimately, America chose to invade Iraq and those soldiers signed up to serve.  I can understand the instinct for survival but it does not change the fact that it is a war crime to deliberately kill a civilian no matter how despicable the people are that put that civilian in harms way.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 08:14:19 PM
How does Israel become a normal country after almost 50 years of brutal military occupation ? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 08:25:56 PM
MikeSheehy

Does this remind you of yourself ?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jul/03/pistorius-murder-trial-hears-two-oscars-psychological-profile

One part of you is genuinely inquisitive and the other half has Tourettes and thinks that abusing people gets their attention 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 08:43:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 03, 2014, 08:25:56 PM
MikeSheehy

Does this remind you of yourself ?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jul/03/pistorius-murder-trial-hears-two-oscars-psychological-profile

One part of you is genuinely inquisitive and the other half has Tourettes and thinks that abusing people gets their attention

Answer the question. Do you work for a company that does business in Israel ?

The board has a right to know.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 03, 2014, 09:00:57 PM
This thread has become absolutely ridiculous. It's a copy paste fest of various articles from sources which the posters choose to read because it suits their particular opinions / agendas.

Any purpose you boys thought it served has well and truly gone.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 03, 2014, 09:13:48 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 07:05:21 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 03, 2014, 04:21:18 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:48:26 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brkzs5FCAAANFLg.jpg)

It's a tragic situation....but these Hamas animals launch rockets from school rooftops, give Palestinian teenagers guns to take potshots at Israeli Soldiers, encourage rioting in kids as young as 5 and 6. The. Tell them all that they go to heaven if they die

While the Israelis are undoubtedly a pack of cvnts, those numbers you quote are flat out propaganda

(In Iraq, Al Quada would force a 4 year old to run out in front of an American Humvee. The Americans jam on the brakes, and then while they're sitting there, get an RPG fired at them. The Americans then just ran right anyone who walked in front of their vehicles. I'm sure these were classified as "murders" too!  I heard this first hand from someone who did 2 tours there)

Whitey, as someone who has lived on and off in the US for 20 years I am cognisant of the differing views on the Invasion of Iraq but, ultimately, America chose to invade Iraq and those so
ldiers signed up to serve.  I can understand the instinct for survival but it does not change the fact that it is a war crime to deliberately kill a civilian no matter how despicable the people are that put that civilian in harms way.



I bring up that example to show that terrorists use and have used children as pawns. The use of the fuzzy math were hearing about the number of Palestinian children killed, needs to be viewed through this lens.

The Iraq war is a whole other discussion. Personally, I was against the war, but felt the Afghanistan war was completely justified and necessary. Now, because of Bush and his fvckwit buddies we are still fighting a war that should be long over. Currently my wife's godson/nephew is fighting over there
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 03, 2014, 09:17:05 PM
Why do you feel the Afghanistan war was justified?? I'm not an expert on it by any means but I certainly wouldn't be of that opinion
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 03, 2014, 09:26:43 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 03, 2014, 09:17:05 PM
Why do you feel the Afghanistan war was justified?? I'm not an expert on it by any means but I certainly wouldn't be of that opinion

Because the Al Quada operatives who carried out the 9/11 attacks had direct links to Osama Bin Laden and his training camps which the Taliban accomadated/permitted.

At the time it was feared that many more attacks were imminent

Bush gave the Taliban an ultimatum to shut the camps down, hand over Osama Bin Laden and they chose to ignore it. Hence we went t war to protect ourselves

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1341196/Bush-gives-Taliban-ultimatum.html

I'm curious as to your opinion as to why we WOULDNT have the right to protect ourselves in such a situation
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 03, 2014, 09:32:36 PM
I would have thought that breach of another nation's sovereignty would require more than "direct links" to a multinational terrorist organisation and "fear of imminent attacks" to be considered justified
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 03, 2014, 09:36:35 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 03, 2014, 09:32:36 PM
I would have thought that breach of another nation's sovereignty would require more than "direct links" to a multinational terrorist organisation and "fear of imminent attacks" to be considered justified

So let me throw the question back to you....how do you think the US should have reacted to the 9/11 attacks?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 03, 2014, 09:41:46 PM
Honestly, I don't want to get dragged into some long winded sh*te about this. There are probably lots of things they could have done but personally I don't think invading Afghanistan was justifiable
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 03, 2014, 09:55:08 PM
And their off again...inane ego fueled...jumbified...point scoring..amateur text referencing...only care because you get a powerful sense of superiority and negative enrichment which makes you feel good.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 03, 2014, 10:04:00 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 03, 2014, 09:32:36 PM
I would have thought that breach of another nation's sovereignty would require more than "direct links" to a multinational terrorist organisation and "fear of imminent attacks" to be considered justified

So let me help you out

US was attacked by Al Quada on 9/11.   FACT

Many of the hijackers trained in Al Quada camps in Afghanistan.    FACT

Osama Bin Ladin planned and directed the 9/11 attacks.    FACT

OBL and AQ were allowed to operate freely and without interference by the Taliban.   FACT

Taliban refused to hand over OBL or dismantle the camps post 9/11. FACT

Additional attacks were being planned in those very same camps.  FACT

This is more than a "join the dots" conspiracy theory. If you don't agree...well your certainly entitled to your opinion, just it's one I respectfully disagree with
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 10:13:39 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 03, 2014, 09:41:46 PM
Honestly, I don't want to get dragged into some long winded sh*te about this. There are probably lots of things they could have done but personally I don't think invading Afghanistan was justifiable

In hindsight, most Americans would probably agree with you. With a bit of patience they could have put pressure on the the Taleban to isolate and trap Bin laden.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 03, 2014, 11:25:52 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 03, 2014, 09:13:48 PM

I bring up that example to show that terrorists use and have used children as pawns The use of the fuzzy math were hearing about the number of Palestinian children killed, needs to be viewed through this lens.

The Iraq war is a whole other discussion. Personally, I was against the war, but felt the Afghanistan war was completely justified and necessary. Now, because of Bush and his fvckwit buddies we are still fighting a war that should be long over. Currently my wife's godson/nephew is fighting over there


You are correct but you only play into the extremists hands by playing the life of one child against another. This is exactly what Seafoid and GHD want you to do. All children are all equal.They are the only true innocents in all of this. Everybody else is driven by, at best, by their biased life experiences, at worst, by their naked predjudices.

The western media ignore the death of Palestinian Children and put the deaths of Israeli children on the front page. On the other hand seafoid and GHD work themselves into a frenzy of bloodlust at the death of Israeli Children and, perversely, salivate at the possible Israeli response. It is madness. Destructive, nihilistic madness.

What is the appropriate response to all this ?

Always speak the truth , even if it is unpopular. Stand up to the mob whether they be Orthodox or Hamas. Question the extremists  like Seafoid and GHD . Call them out.

Don't let the poisoned ones poison everybody else.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 03, 2014, 11:45:32 PM
Well said Mike Sheehy!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:49:35 PM
Israel attempting cover up over Jerusalem teen's killing, family say

The family of Muhammad Abu Khudair, the Palestinian teenager abducted and brutally murdered in Jerusalem early on Wednesday morning, were still waiting for Israeli authorities to return the boy's body on Thursday night.

"They told us to come and pick him up at 5pm. We went at 5 and then they said come back tomorrow," Dr. Mohsen Abukhudeir, Muhammad's cousin, told The Electronic Intifada by phone from Shuafat in occupied Jerusalem.

"We don't know what's happening," he added.

Abukhudeir said that the family were outraged at Israeli efforts to cover up for Muhammad's murderers by spreading false stories and smears.

In the first hours after his body was found, Israeli police said that they suspected that Muhammad's killing was a reprisal for the killings of three Israeli teenagers whose bodies were found in the occupied West Bank on Monday. But since then, as the blogger Richard Silverstein has reported Israeli police leaked to the media misinformation claiming that Muhammad was killed in an honor crime because he was gay.

As The Electronic Intifada has reported, Israeli leaders and others have engaged in intense campaigns of incitement and calls for "revenge."

Dr. Mohsen Abukhdeir said that Muhammad's father, Hussein Abu Khudair, was questioned at the Russian Compound police station in Jerusalem from 6am to 4pm on Thursday and pressured by police to agree to "lies that the police invented" that Muhammad was killed in a "family dispute."

Dr. Mohsen said the family believed the body was being held as a form of pressure.

Wesam Abukhdeir, 17, another cousin of Muhammad, tweeted at New York Times correspondent Jodi Rudoren out of frustration at Israeli efforts to spin the story and put pressure on the family.

"I posted those tweets because I wanted The New York Times people to see what's happening," Wesam later told The Electronic Intifada contributor Rania Khalek by telephone from his home in Jerusalem's Shuafat neighborhood.

"No one's saying anything about it. Already there are Israelis saying it was a family problem. They're all completely brainwashed into believing whatever their media tells them, unless there's a counterargument from a legitimate source, like The New York Times," Wesam added.

Wesam told Khalek that he hadn't left his home since Muhammad's body was found because Israeli soldiers entered the neighborhood and haven't stopped firing tear gassing and rubber-coated steel bullets at protestors since.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-attempting-cover-over-jerusalem-teens-killing-family-say
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 03, 2014, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 03, 2014, 11:45:32 PM
Well said Mike Sheehy!

+1

What is the response? Another copy and paste. That's all this thread has become.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:55:45 PM
CCTV footage showing the kidnapping of Palestinian teenager Mohamed Abu Khdeir in East Jerusalem, before his brutal murder.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/03/cctv-palestinian-teens-mohamed-abu-khdeir-abduction-video
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 03, 2014, 11:58:14 PM
Ghd you could write a computer program that would give the same contribution to this thread as you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 12:00:26 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 03, 2014, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 03, 2014, 11:45:32 PM
Well said Mike Sheehy!

+1

What is the response? Another copy and paste. That's all this thread has become.

If you want to educate people about the truth you first have to win hearts and minds. Seafoid does not have a heart and GHD does not have a mind. This is why they cut and paste. They have no alternative.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 04, 2014, 12:04:11 AM
I'm not unconvinced ghd isn't using a computer program to be honest.seems a touch robotic.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 04, 2014, 12:08:25 AM
IDF planning to demolish homes of dozens of Palestinian militants in West Bank

The Israel Defense Forces is considering demolishing dozens of homes in the West Bank, including those of Hamas leaders, arguing that prison time is not an adequate deterrent for crimes. The IDF is conducting staff work in the run-up to a decision.

Israel has reinstated house demolitions in the West Bank after a decade-long hiatus as part of its latest efforts against Hamas. This week the High Court of Justice approved the demolition of the home of Ziad Awad, who has been charged with the murder of an off-duty policeman.

In response to a petition against demolishing Awad's home, Maj. Gen. Nitzan Alon, the head of Central Command, told the court that such operations were necessary because of the increase in terror activity over the past two years.

Meanwhile, in the town of Awarta near Nablus this week, IDF officials have measured the homes of the two men convicted of murdering the Fogel family in March 2011. Five members of the family were stabbed to death in their home in the settlement of Itamar, including the parents and three children aged 11 years, 4 years and 3 months.

An earlier recommendation by the Shin Bet security service to demolish the houses was rejected.

The IDF also intends to demolish the homes of the following: the two suspects in the recent kidnapping and murder of three teens in the West Bank, the two men convicted of kidnapping and murdering soldier Tomer Hazan, the teen convicted of murdering soldier Eden Attias, and the two men who confessed to murdering Col. (res.) Seraiah Ofer. The latter three killings all took place in the second half of last year.

The Hamas leaders who would be punished this way are the ones arrested after the kidnapping of the three teens. The homes of Hamas military leaders who are in Israeli prisons were demolished years ago.

Others whose homes may be demolished are men released in the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011; in that case, Israeli officials would have to prove that these men have returned to terror.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.603029?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 12:13:24 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 04, 2014, 12:04:11 AM
I'm not unconvinced ghd isn't using a computer program to be honest.seems a touch robotic.

You saw his response when AZoffaly asked him the most innocuous of questions. GHD is not quite the full shilling.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 04, 2014, 12:14:52 AM
There was some panic earlier after the official IDF twitter account was hacked with a tweet warning people that there was a possible nuclear leak after 2 rockets hit the Dimona nuclear facility.

(http://rt.com/files/news/29/96/00/00/idf-tweet-2.png)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 12:27:18 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 03, 2014, 11:55:45 PM
CCTV footage showing the kidnapping of Palestinian teenager Mohamed Abu Khdeir in East Jerusalem, before his brutal murder.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/03/cctv-palestinian-teens-mohamed-abu-khdeir-abduction-video

Do you ever pause to think about these children GHD ? Or are they just numerical pawns in your relentless campaign ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 12:43:28 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/world/middleeast/palestinian-family-mourns-jerusalem-israel.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/world/middleeast/palestinian-family-mourns-jerusalem-israel.html?_r=0)

Here is some more information about the child. Just so you know.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
What is the problem with linking articles to this thread? So many pieces have been written about how Israel is losing its way but none of them are valid, are they? No, you have to get down to MikeSheehy's adhom level and start flinging insults while saying nothing.
This particular thread could  follow the story all the way to the collapse of apartheid in greater Israel and the fall of Zionism.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 05:29:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
What is the problem with linking articles to this thread? So many pieces have been written about how Israel is losing its way but none of them are valid, are they? No, you have to get down to MikeSheehy's adhom level and start flinging insults while saying nothing.
This particular thread could  follow the story all the way to the collapse of apartheid in greater Israel and the fall of Zionism.

Seafoid is throwing his toys out of his pram as soon as he gets the smallest of resistance to his hatemongering.

You are a busted flush on here Seafoid. Nobody is going to believe the word of someone who calls for boycotts yet makes his living off the back of the very Apartheid state he is supposedly against.

you hypocrite.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 05:43:12 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 05:29:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
What is the problem with linking articles to this thread? So many pieces have been written about how Israel is losing its way but none of them are valid, are they? No, you have to get down to MikeSheehy's adhom level and start flinging insults while saying nothing.
This particular thread could  follow the story all the way to the collapse of apartheid in greater Israel and the fall of Zionism.

Seafoid is throwing his toys out of his pram as soon as he gets the smallest of resistance to his hatemongering.

You are a busted flush on here Seafoid. Nobody is going to believe the word of someone who calls for boycotts yet makes his living off the back of the very Apartheid state he is supposedly against.

you hypocrite.
WTF are you on about? I haven't read you last few pages of bile so I have no clue what you are talking about. 
International law says the occupation is illegal. 
Do we have to make the next 50 pages of this thread about your personality disorder ? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 06:34:19 PM
you are lying. You know full well what was discussed. You really are a slimey customer Seafoid. Do you really think people believe your lies ?

And stop referring to the recent valid posts and open dialogue by myself, intomygunn,itchy, Macdanger2,whitey and others as "bile". You constantly make these ad hominem attacks on anyone that attempts to have a discussion on this topic  (as opposed to a bot-war of cut'n'pastes) and its just not on. People will no longer tolerate your aggressive propaganda. 

Now answer the question you were asked earlier. Do you work for a company that does business in Israel ? or have you ever worked for one in the past.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 06:38:53 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 06:34:19 PM
you are lying. You know full well what was discussed. You really are a slimey customer Seafoid. Do you really think people believe your lies ?

And stop referring to the recent valid posts and open dialogue by myself, intomygunn,itchy, Macdanger2,whitey and others as "bile". You constantly make these ad hominem attacks on anyone that attempts to have a discussion on this topic  (as opposed to a bot-war of cut'n'pastes) and its just not on. People will no longer tolerate your aggressive propaganda. 

Now answer the question you were asked earlier. Do you work for a company that does business in Israel ? or have you ever worked for one in the past.
you are a fraud

http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-a-Troll-on-the-Internet

A troll is someone that deliberately seeks attention by causing arguments and disruption. Recognizing one can help you decide if someone is serious and needs help or clarification, or if someone is just trying to make you angry or frustrated.

•Intentional, provocative, incendiary messages.
•Passionate debates of inflammatory topics.
•Attacks to various members of the community.
•Discussions focused on nonsense, in the hope that others will interact.
•Flooding, screaming and disruption of chat channels.

You have zero interest in Israel or Palestine
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 06:43:59 PM
Answer the question Seafoid. If you are constantly claiming that you support boycotts against an apartheid state yet make a living out of that same Apartheid state then people have a right to know that.

It is a perfectly valid question, especially in the context of this thread and no amount of personal attacks on me will deflect from that.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 07:04:45 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 06:43:59 PM
Answer the question Seafoid. If you are constantly claiming that you support boycotts against an apartheid state yet make a living out of that same Apartheid state then people have a right to know that.

It is a perfectly valid question, especially in the context of this thread and no amount of personal attacks on me will deflect from that.
Discussions focused on nonsense, in the hope that others will interact.

And "personal attacks" is very rich coming from you
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 07:25:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 07:04:45 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 06:43:59 PM
Answer the question Seafoid. If you are constantly claiming that you support boycotts against an apartheid state yet make a living out of that same Apartheid state then people have a right to know that.

It is a perfectly valid question, especially in the context of this thread and no amount of personal attacks on me will deflect from that.
Discussions focused on nonsense, in the hope that others will interact.

And "personal attacks" is very rich coming from you

Everybody reading this can see , once again, how you dodge even the simplest of questions.



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 07:25:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 07:04:45 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 06:43:59 PM
Answer the question Seafoid. If you are constantly claiming that you support boycotts against an apartheid state yet make a living out of that same Apartheid state then people have a right to know that.

It is a perfectly valid question, especially in the context of this thread and no amount of personal attacks on me will deflect from that.
Discussions focused on nonsense, in the hope that others will interact.

And "personal attacks" is very rich coming from you

Everybody reading this can see , once again, how you dodge even the simplest of questions.
Were you bullied as a child? The board needs to know.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 04, 2014, 07:59:25 PM
Seafood, why don't you answer the question. It is relevant to this thread. For not the first time you have proven yourself a coward when asked a simple question.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 08:03:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 07:52:49 PM
Were you bullied as a child? The board needs to know.

Stop being childish and answer the question.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 08:20:55 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 08:03:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 07:52:49 PM
Were you bullied as a child? The board needs to know.

Stop being childish and answer the question.
This is serious Sheehy
We have to find out the nature of your condition

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886914000324
In two online studies (total N = 1215), respondents completed personality inventories and a survey of their Internet commenting styles. Overall, strong positive associations emerged among online commenting frequency, trolling enjoyment, and troll identity, pointing to a common construct underlying the measures. Both studies revealed similar patterns of relations between trolling and the Dark Tetrad of personality: trolling correlated positively with sadism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism, using both enjoyment ratings and identity scores.

Which of the Dark Tetrad would you say presents most strongly in your case ?

Narcissism is characterized by grandiosity, pride, egotism, and a lack of empathy.[8]
Machiavellianism is characterized by manipulation and exploitation of others, a cynical disregard for morality, and a focus on self-interest and deception.[9]
Psychopathy is characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, impulsivity, selfishness, callousness, and remorselessness.[10]

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 08:38:35 PM
hmm, lack of empathy (check), disregard for morality(check), deception(check), remorselessness (13 years of propaganda...check)

have a look in the mirror if you want to find those traits

Anyway, enough with this cowardly deflection and personal attacks Seafoid. This is the Palestine thread remember. BDS is critical to the issue and you should be prepared to answer questions about it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 08:50:35 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 08:38:35 PM
hmm, lack of empathy (check), disregard for morality(check), deception(check), remorselessness (13 years of propaganda...check)

have a look in the mirror if you want to find those traits

Anyway, enough with this cowardly deflection and personal attacks Seafoid. This is the Palestine thread remember. BDS is critical to the issue and you should be prepared to answer questions about it.
More questions

Do you have an unfulfilling (and unsupervised) employment situation ?

It has a high correlation with Internet Troll Personality Disorder 

Internet Troll Personality Disorder (ITPD) is characterized by a persistent pattern of obstructing of on-topic discussion in online forums and comment threads. People afflicted with ITPD may purposefully present themselves as being inappropriately sexually provocative or racist. Often times they disingenuously express strong emotions with an impressionistic style, pretend to throw arbitrary tantrums, and never hesitate to contribute absurd, non-sequitur remarks at any perceived opportunity.

Regarding my previous question, I think you are above all a narcissist.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 08:55:18 PM
Gideon Levy- Israel does not want peace AKA why Zionism is fucked long term   

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112

"Rejectionism is embedded in Israel's most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone."

Sorry Itchy's that it's a link. I'll try to write something for the Anglo Celt.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 09:26:09 PM
Quote
seafoid November 16, 2010 at 9:48 am
I had lunch with an Israeli colleague today. He said Israelis stopped voting Labor "because they are weak on security". Wasn't that a very nifty formulation by the settler lobby as cover for the YESHA project ?
Now that the settlers have what they want, what's next?

So was this "colleague" a work colleague Seafoid ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: StGallsGAA on July 04, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
Why are the DUP pro-Israel??? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 10:11:17 PM
Sheehy

How machiavellian would you say you are on a scale of 1 to 10 allowing for your ineptitude ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on July 04, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
Why are the DUP pro-Israel???
god's chosen people, somme/shoah, law and order , settler colonialism
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 10:29:01 PM
So he makes a living off Israel and has spent the last 13 years preaching to us about boycotts etc.

All the lies, Sefaoid, all the hypocrisy. God knows how you sleep at night.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 10:35:43 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 10:29:01 PM
So he makes a living off Israel and has spent the last 13 years preaching to us about boycotts etc.

All the lies, Sefaoid, all the hypocrisy. God knows how you sleep at night.
Internet Troll Personality Disorder (ITPD) is characterized by a persistent pattern of obstructing of on-topic discussion in online forums and comment threads.

Often times they disingenuously express strong emotions with an impressionistic style, pretend to throw arbitrary tantrums, and never hesitate to contribute absurd, non-sequitur remarks at any perceived opportunity.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 10:37:25 PM
Tell us how you see Israel doing over the next 20 years, Sheehy. Do you think it will be able to sell apartheid to the goys ? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 10:54:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 10:37:25 PM
Tell us how you see Israel doing over the next 20 years, Sheehy. Do you think it will be able to sell apartheid to the goys ?

I think as long as people like you continue to support the Israeli state by working for Israeli companies whose taxes help support the state then the status quo will continue.

Quoteseafoid December 19, 2010 at 5:40 pm    
The RoR is no more than a law of return for Palestinians. I have a colleague in our Israel office who spent 55 years living and working in England and decided he wanted to retire to Israel. So he gets an Israeli passport while 50 miles down the road nobody in Gaza is let anywhere near the place.

The game is up Seafoid. You will have to address this hypocrisy.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: thebigfella on July 04, 2014, 11:10:15 PM
Seafoid why don't you answer the question?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 11:31:21 PM
Sheehy

Another question for you
You can answer in big letters if you want. I don't mind. I know you like the attention.

Does your troll behavior online carry on into your real life ?
Your answers will be of great use to the research of the phenomenon.     
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2014, 11:34:22 PM
Sheehy

"I think as long as people like you continue to support the Israeli state by working for Israeli companies whose taxes help support the state then the status quo will continue."

This is insane. I have never ever worked for an Israeli company and I never ever would.
But it goes with the trolling, doesn't it ? And you didn't answer the question about apartheid. Of course you didn't.
You're a troll and you can't.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 04, 2014, 11:39:15 PM
Did sheehy make up the quote above from 2010 or is it an actual quote. It implies your company has an Israeli office does it not. Feel free to set me straight because at the moment you look like a too grade hypocrite. I bet old Dixie is raging and he'll be boycotting you next for not towing the line 100% like he did when Sinn Fein didn't do like he said.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2014, 11:41:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 04, 2014, 11:39:15 PM
Did sheehy make up the quote above from 2010 or is it an actual quote. It implies your company has an Israeli office does it not. Feel free to set me straight because at the moment you look like a too grade hypocrite. I bet old Dixie is raging and he'll be boycotting you next for not towing the line 100% like he did when Sinn Fein didn't do like he said.

The quote is from mondoweiss.net. Anyone who wants to check its veracity just needs to go there and search his user history and go to the date.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 05, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
Meanwhile Israel slides further into nihilism

http://972mag.com/watch-israeli-jews-attack-palestinian-on-public-bus/93003/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 05, 2014, 02:28:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 05, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
Meanwhile Israel slides further into nihilism

http://972mag.com/watch-israeli-jews-attack-palestinian-on-public-bus/93003/

I think I understand now why you are so concerned about Israel. In these volatile economic times a lot
of people are concerned about their jobs and their livelihoods and I suppose you are no different. That
is fair enough I suppose. If you had just explained to everyone your situation it would have been fine.
Everyman has a right to make a living and I suppose we cant all perfectly align what we practice with what we
preach.

Still, there has to be some proportionality....you cant be this uncompromising with other peoples principles and
so fluid with your own. It creates a great dissonance between your message and your actions.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 05, 2014, 02:55:08 PM
AlJazeera World 2 July Filmmaker: Bilal Yousef –  Journalist Gideon Levy is arguably the most hated man in Israel for his reports on the occupied Palestinian territories — Gideon Levy is someone who evokes strong emotions from fellow Israelis. The writer and journalist has made weekly visits, over the past three decades, to the occupied Palestinian territories, describing what he sees – plainly and without propaganda. For some Israelis, he is seen as a brave disseminator of the truth. But many others condemn him as a propagandist for Hamas. And his columns for the Tel Aviv-based Haaretz newspaper have made him, arguably, one of the most hated men in Israel. "When I joined Haaretz newspaper, I started to visit the occupied territories," Levy says. "I immediately realised this was what I wanted to do; to understand the brutality and inhumanity of the Israeli occupation." "I figured out three things. First, this was the biggest drama facing the state of Israel. Second, this story was not being covered by the Israeli media. And third, this was going to be my life mission – to report about the Israeli occupation to Israeli readers who did not want to know what was really happening there." Over the years, Levy's stories have shed light on the realities Palestinians face on a daily basis. One of his earlier reports, 'Death of a baby' in 1996, told of an incident involving the Abu Dahouk family. They were stopped at a checkpoint on their way to a hospital. Israeli soldiers delayed the family including a heavily pregnant Fayzeh Abu Dahouk, who ended up delivering her baby in the backseat of the car. The baby, who she hoped to name Yousef, died a couple of days later. Levy wrote at the time: "Who the hell are they? Who are those soldiers who saw Fayzeh Abu Dahouk in pain as she delivered her baby in her brother-in-law's car. Who are those soldiers who didn't let her pass to reach the hospital?" "Who are those soldiers who made Fayzeh have to wrap her baby in her clothes and walk two kilometres to reach the hospital?"
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/aljazeeraworld/2013/02/2013212837310172.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 06, 2014, 02:38:58 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 05, 2014, 02:55:08 PM
AlJazeera World 2 July Filmmaker: Bilal Yousef –  Journalist Gideon Levy is arguably the most hated man in Israel for his reports on the occupied Palestinian territories — Gideon Levy is someone who evokes strong emotions from fellow Israelis. The writer and journalist has made weekly visits, over the past three decades, to the occupied Palestinian territories, describing what he sees – plainly and without propaganda. For some Israelis, he is seen as a brave disseminator of the truth. But many others condemn him as a propagandist for Hamas. And his columns for the Tel Aviv-based Haaretz newspaper have made him, arguably, one of the most hated men in Israel. "When I joined Haaretz newspaper, I started to visit the occupied territories," Levy says. "I immediately realised this was what I wanted to do; to understand the brutality and inhumanity of the Israeli occupation." "I figured out three things. First, this was the biggest drama facing the state of Israel. Second, this story was not being covered by the Israeli media. And third, this was going to be my life mission – to report about the Israeli occupation to Israeli readers who did not want to know what was really happening there." Over the years, Levy's stories have shed light on the realities Palestinians face on a daily basis. One of his earlier reports, 'Death of a baby' in 1996, told of an incident involving the Abu Dahouk family. They were stopped at a checkpoint on their way to a hospital. Israeli soldiers delayed the family including a heavily pregnant Fayzeh Abu Dahouk, who ended up delivering her baby in the backseat of the car. The baby, who she hoped to name Yousef, died a couple of days later. Levy wrote at the time: "Who the hell are they? Who are those soldiers who saw Fayzeh Abu Dahouk in pain as she delivered her baby in her brother-in-law's car. Who are those soldiers who didn't let her pass to reach the hospital?" "Who are those soldiers who made Fayzeh have to wrap her baby in her clothes and walk two kilometres to reach the hospital?"
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/aljazeeraworld/2013/02/2013212837310172.html

Seafoid, there are a lot of Israelis that speak out against the policies of their own country. That is a very hard thing to do. It is something that should be applauded. It is not something that should be exploited by people who profess their hatred of Israelis at every turn. You stab them in the back with a lot of the stuff you post on here and mondoweiss. It is that two facedness that I particularily dislike about you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: omaghjoe on July 06, 2014, 07:51:02 AM
I've just been reading some of the comments on this thread and I have come to a conclusion about the whole thing

Jaysus! You two are mad!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 06, 2014, 09:45:58 AM
There aren't enough Israelis who speak up. That is the tragedy of Israel. The system rolls on and apartheid is the result. Will Israel be able to sell apartheid to the goys? I don't think so.
And trolling here won't change the awful dynamics of what is going on over there.

"Seafoid, there are a lot of Israelis that speak out against the policies of their own country"

Name 10 of them
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 06, 2014, 02:35:16 PM
Seafood is now implying there are less than 10 Israelis that speak about about their behaviour. Hasn't even the balls to answer sheehys question instead labelling him as a troll. Almost Israeli like! At least old Dixie would never work for a company with links to Israel, he has some principles.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 06, 2014, 07:17:35 PM
Gideon Levy
Chemi Shalev
David Grossman
Yehuda Shaul
Yonatan Shapira
Uri Avnery
Hagit Ofran
Yariv Oppenheimer
Talia Sasson
Ronnie Barkan

and those are just the more public faces.

Also, even for those ordinary people that don't speak out but that have moderate views you do them a great disservice by constantly portraying Israelis a frothing tribe of rabid Zionists. The newspaper that you constantly quote from, haaretz has the third largest circulation in Israel. Who do you think buys those newspapers Seafoid ?  What kind of Israeli would continue to buy a newspaper that prints a headline "Why All Israelis are cowards" . A pretty tolerant one I would say...hardly a rabid Zionist. Can you imagine the reaction in Ireland if an Irish newspaper, at the height of the IRA's bombing campaign,  said all Irish people were cowards by having an ambiguous attitude to terrorism ?

The bottom line is that, fine...more could speak out...but you don't exactly encourage people to speak out if you constantly demonize them do you ?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 06, 2014, 08:20:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 06, 2014, 07:17:35 PM
Gideon Levy
Chemi Shalev
David Grossman
Yehuda Shaul
Yonatan Shapira
Uri Avnery
Hagit Ofran
Yariv Oppenheimer
Talia Sasson
Ronnie Barkan

and those are just the more public faces.

Also, even for those ordinary people that don't speak out but that have moderate views you do them a great disservice by constantly portraying Israelis a frothing tribe of rabid Zionists. The newspaper that you constantly quote from, haaretz has the third largest circulation in Israel. Who do you think buys those newspapers Seafoid ?  What kind of Israeli would continue to buy a newspaper that prints a headline "Why All Israelis are cowards" . A pretty tolerant one I would say...hardly a rabid Zionist. Can you imagine the reaction in Ireland if an Irish newspaper, at the height of the IRA's bombing campaign,  said all Irish people were cowards by having an ambiguous attitude to terrorism ?

The bottom line is that, fine...more could speak out...but you don't exactly encourage people to speak out if you constantly demonize them do you ?
cheers

I'll see what they've written recently about Israel's occupation.

Here's a shameless muslim extremist, Roger Cohen, stabbing Israel in the back

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/four-boys-butchered-the-cost-of-spurning-efforts-for-peace-in-the-middle-east-1.1855590

"Still, Israel, a state of laws within the pre-1967 lines, is not a state of law beyond them in the occupied West Bank, where Israeli dominion over millions of Palestinians, now almost a half-century old, involves routine coercion, humiliation and abuse, to which most Israelis have grown increasingly oblivious.What goes on beyond a long-forgotten Green Line tends to impinge on Israeli consciousness only when violence flares. "


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 06, 2014, 09:15:30 PM
From the same article
Quote
All four killings took place in territory occupied or annexed by Israel since 1967. Here the law has taken second place to the Messianic claims of religious nationalists who believe Jews have a God-given right to all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. Their view holds sway, even if it is not the view of most Israelis.

You should read the articles you post Seafoid. You might learn something.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 07, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
Gideon Levy

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.603232
"It's not the skinheads that are the Jewish state's main problem, it's the sanctimonious eye-rollers, the thugs, the extreme right wing and the settlers. It's not the margins but the mainstream, which is partly very nationalistic and partly indifferent.
In the Jewish state, there is no remnant of the biblical injunction to treat the minority or the stranger with justice. There are no more Jews left who marched with Martin Luther King or who sat in jail with Nelson Mandela. The Jewish state, which Israel insists the Palestinians recognize, must first recognize itself. At the end of the day, at the end of a terrible week, it seems that a Jewish state means a racist, nationalistic state, meant for Jews only. "

That is very sad, IMO.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 07, 2014, 09:28:45 PM
Ha'aretz editorial.


This doesn't pull any punches.
I think Mr Sheehy and Mr Dixie would both agree it's very good.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.603451
Jewish hate of Arabs proves: Israel must undergo cultural revolution

Without a revolution based on humanist values, the Jewish tribe will not be worthy of its own state.

Haaretz Editorial    |  Jul. 7, 2014 | 2:20 AM |  17


There are no words to describe the horror allegedly done by six Jews to Mohammed Abu Khdeir of Shoafat. Although a gag order bars publication of details of the terrible murder and the identities of its alleged perpetrators, the account of Abu Khdeir's family — according to which the boy was burned alive — would horrify any mortal. Anyone who is not satisfied with this description, can view the horror movie in which members of Israel's Border Police are seen brutally beating Tariq Abu Khdeir, the murder victim's 15-year-old cousin.

The Israel Police was quick to label the murderers "Jewish extremists," meaning they aren't part of the herd, they are outliers, "wild weeds." This is the police's way of trying to justify a sin, to "make the vermin kosher." But the vermin is huge, and many-legged. It has embraced the soldiers and other young Israelis who overran the social media networks with calls for revenge and with hatred for Arabs. The vermin was welcomed by Knesset members, rabbis and public figures who demanded revenge. Nor did it skip over the prime minister, who declared "Vengeance for the blood of a small child, Satan has not yet created."

Abu Khdeir's murderers are not "Jewish extremists." They are the descendants and builders of a culture of hate and vengeance that is nurtured and fertilized by the guides of "the Jewish state": Those for whom every Arab is a bitter enemy, simply because they are Arab; those who were silent at the Beitar Jerusalem games when the team's fans shouted "death to Arabs" at Arab players; those who call for cleansing the state of its Arab minority, or at least to drive them out of the homes and cities of the Jews.

No less responsible for the murder are those who did not halt, with an iron hand, violence by Israeli soldiers against Palestinian civilians, and who failed to investigate complaints "due to lack of public interest." The term "Jewish extremists" actually seems more appropriate for the small Jewish minority that is still horrified by these acts of violence and murder. But they too recognize, unfortunately, that they belong to a vengeful, vindictive Jewish tribe whose license to perpetrate horrors is based on the horrors that were done to it.

Prosecuting the murderers is no longer sufficient. There must be a cultural revolution in Israel. Its political leaders and military officers must recognize this injustice and right it. They must begin raising the next generation, at least, on humanist values, and foster a tolerant public discourse. Without these, the Jewish tribe will not be worthy of its own state.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 07, 2014, 10:51:22 PM
Yes, it is always good that bigotry is called out.

That is why I will continue to keep you in check.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 07, 2014, 10:52:52 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 07, 2014, 10:51:22 PM
Yes, it is always good that bigotry is called out.

That is why I will continue to keep you in check.
good man yourself. You're making wonderful progress.  :)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 08, 2014, 12:03:49 AM
I think real progress would be to help you get over your hatred of your Israeli work colleagues. I think that would boost your productivity no end.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 09, 2014, 04:49:48 PM
Don't want to get involved in the tit for tat row on this thread but think its a terrible situation in Gaza at present and the international community needs to do something .This is a list of the dead over the past few days

Updated 5:52 pm: The Gaza health ministry has released the names and ages of 41 Palestinians killed so far in the besieged strip since Israel began its relentless assault early Tuesday. Among those killed, 13 were aged 16 or younger. The youngest victim, 18-month-old Mohammed Malakiyeh, was killed along with his 27-year-old mother. The oldest victim, 80-year-old Naifeh Farjallah, was killed in an air strike on the town of Moghraqa, southwest of Gaza City.

The single deadliest strike killed eight people Tuesday in southern Gaza when Israel bombed the Hamad family home.

Al-Akhbar will update the list as new information is released.

Tuesday, July 8:
1. Mohammed Sha'aban, 24, was killed in a bombing of his car in Gaza City.
2. Ahmad Sha'aban, 30, died in the same bombing.
3. Khadir al-Bashiliki, 45, died in the same bombing.
4. Rashad Yaseen, 27, was killed in a bombing of the Nusseirat refugee camp in central Gaza.
5. Riad Mohammed Kawareh, 50, was killed in a bombing of his family's home in Khan Younis.
6. Seraj Ayad Abed al-A'al, 8, was wounded in the same bombing and succumbed to his injuries on Tuesday evening.
7. Mohammed Ayman Ashour, 15, died in the same bombing.
8. Bakr Mohammed Joudah, 22, died in the same bombing.
9. Ammar Mohammed Joudah, 26, died in the same bombing.
10. Hussein Yousef Kawareh, 13, died in the same bombing.
11. Mohammed Ibrahim Kawareh, 50, died in the same bombing.
12. Bassim Salim Kawareh, 10, died in the same bombing.
13. Mousa Habib, 16, from Gaza City's al-Shujaiyah neighborhood, was killed along with his 22-year old cousin while the pair were riding a motorcycle.
14. Mohammed Habib, 22, was killed with Mousa Habib.
15. Sakr Aysh al-Ajouri, 22, was killed in an attack on Jabaliyah, in northern Gaza.
16. Ahmad Na'el Mehdi, 16, from Gaza City's Sheikh Radwan neighborhood, was killed in a bombing that wounded two of his friends.
17. Hafiz Mohammed Hamad, 30, an Islamic Jihad commander, was killed in the bombing of his home in Beit Hanoun, along with five of his family members.
18. Ibrahim Mohammed Hamad, 26, died in the same bombing.
19. Mehdi Mohammed Hamad, 46, died in the same bombing.
20. Fawzia Khalil Hamad, 62, died in the same bombing.
21. Dunia Mehdi Hamad, 16, died in the same bombing.
22. Suha Hamad, 25, died in the same bombing.
23. Suleiman Salman Abu Soaween, 22

Wednesday, July 9:
24. Abdelhadi Jamaat al-Sufi, 24, was killed in a bombing near the Rafah crossing.
25. Naifeh Farjallah, 80, was killed in an airstrike on the town of Moghraqa, southwest of Gaza City.
26. Abdelnasser Abu Kweek, 60, was killed in the bombing of Gaza's central governorate along with his son.
27. Khaled Abu Kweek, 31, Abdelnasser Abu Kweek's son, was killed in the same bombing.
28. Amir Areef, 13, died in a bombing in Sha'af.
29. Mohammed Malkiyeh, one and a half years old, died in a bombing along with his mother and a young man.
30. Amniyeh Malkiyeh, 27, Mohammed Malkiyeh's mother, died in the same bombing.
31. Hatem Abu Salem, 28, died in the same bombing.
32. Mohammed Khaled al-Nimri, 22
33. Sahar Hamdan, 40, died in the bombing of her home in Beit Hanoun.
34. Ibrahim Masri, 14, Sahar Hamdan's son, was killed in the same bombing.
35. Unknown
36. Sumoud al-Nawasra, a mother, was killed in a bombing along with her two children.
37. Mohammed Khalaf al-Nawasra, 4, arrived at the hospital "in shreds."
38. Nidal Khalaf al-Nawasra, a child of unreported age, died along with Mohammed and Sumoud.
39. Salah Awwad al-Nawasra, was killed in the same bombing. His body was found under the rubble of the house.
40. Amal Youssef Abdel Ghafour
41. Ranim Jawde Abdel Ghafour, a young girl

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 09, 2014, 10:51:55 PM
What can be said glens other than the Israelis are barbarian tramps. Unfortunately nothing will be done.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 09, 2014, 10:53:39 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 09, 2014, 10:51:55 PM
What can be said glens other than the Israelis are barbarian tramps. Unfortunately nothing will be done.

Shocking and since I posted that the death toll has risen to 52. >:( >:(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 10, 2014, 12:21:33 AM
So does anyone have a solution that would be even mildly palatable to both sides?


I'm genuinely interested to know what people think.

Did they ever come close to some kind of lasting peace?

If they did what did it look like, and what scuppered the deal?

What would it take to get back close to that scenario?

We could spend a decade on here arguing and nothing will change.

Both sides need to look into their souls and decide whether they want peace or war!!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 10, 2014, 09:32:21 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 10, 2014, 12:21:33 AM
So does anyone have a solution that would be even mildly palatable to both sides?
I'm genuinely interested to know what people think.
Did they ever come close to some kind of lasting peace?
If they did what did it look like, and what scuppered the deal?
What would it take to get back close to that scenario?
We could spend a decade on here arguing and nothing will change.
Both sides need to look into their souls and decide whether they want peace or war!!
Bring Hamas and Israel to the ICC
The Americans will eventually ditch Israel anyway.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 10, 2014, 09:35:41 AM
Israel has no exit strategy this time around. Normally they could ask Egypt or Turkey but they aren't interested.
They attack Gaza every so often to let off steam but once they start the killing they need some way to stop it before they lose the PR war.
It's really pointless.  They are never going to get the people in Gaza to accept that what they are doing is just.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 10, 2014, 09:47:47 AM
The rules of Israel's game in Gaza are weird. As long as the Israelis say the deaths were not intentional everything is fine.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.603679
"Both morality and the rule of law demand equal treatment of all murders. They also demand an acknowledgment of the difference between the deliberate murder of innocent civilians and the legitimate military actions of a government seeking to protect its citizens, even when those military actions cause unavoidable civilian casualties among the human shields widely employed by Israel's enemies. "

So 3 dead settlers are different. I don't know how you would go about explaining that to Palestinians.
They don't call dead Gazans civilians either

And they drop something on the roof to tell the targets that death is arriving. It's like the Passover story from the bible with the angel of death. Beyond parody.   

I guess it all makes sense in Hebrew.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.604128

Eight noncombatants, all members of the Kaware family, were killed Tuesday in an Israel Air Force strike on their home in the Gaza Strip city of Khan Yunis. According to a preliminary investigation conducted by the Israel Defense Forces, the results of which were released on Wednesday, the family returned prematurely to the home after being warned by the IDF that it would be targeted. The Israel Air Force said the deaths were not intentional.
The IDF says the home was the residence of Odeh Kaware, Hamas' Khan Yunis company commander, and served as his headquarters. According to the preliminary investigation, after Israeli security forces informed family members by phone that the house was going to be bombed, they left the house. Then, in what the IAF calls "the knock on the roof," a small missile, without an explosive warhead, was fired onto the building's roof in order to underline the seriousness of the warning.


Apparently the family members began returning to the house just as the larger missile, meant to destroy the home, was fired. "There was nothing to be done, the munition was in the air and could not be diverted," a senior air force officer said. "Although you see [the family members] running back into the house, there was no way to divert the missile," he said.

Palestinian sources said eight people were killed and 25 wounded in the strike on the house.
A high-ranking IDF officer said on Tuesday that the defense establishment would continue to bomb the homes of senior Hamas operatives, adding that even though the IAF realizes that sometimes residents of a targeted building try to prevent the bombings by standing on the roof as human shields, "We will take down those houses."
"If these people, like those yesterday, try to confront a plane in the air, and the pilot signals [that he plans to blow up the house] – get out, because that house will fall," the officer, who was speaking on condition of anonymity, said. "
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 10, 2014, 12:24:19 PM
As AZoffaly pointed out earlier only the presence of an external Military force that is willing to enforce the peace equally (i.e launch offensive action against any agreessors equally) would stop these kinds of escalations. Something akin to the force sent by the UN to Cyprus in act as a buffer except act as a buffer with teeth. If the UN don't do this then who is left ? The US will not bomb Israel to get them to stop and any kind of Arab League alliance are hardly going to bomb Gaza to get Hamas to stop launching rockets. Who is left after that...Europe ?

Would people be willing to send Irish troops to the region ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 10, 2014, 07:07:58 PM
It is hard to know which are worse, the Israeli leadership who are positively medieval in their thinking and bloodlust, or the Palestinian traitors who think launching useless rockets at Israel is a good idea.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on July 13, 2014, 05:27:05 PM
A lot more publicity on fb about Israel. Has to be only a matter of time before someone steps in.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Agent Orange on July 13, 2014, 06:19:04 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10452454_781043405259412_2386611608469567880_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 14, 2014, 06:59:37 PM
Great turnout tonight in West Belfast for Gaza,white line picket from Divis to bottom of Whiterock.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Old yeller on July 14, 2014, 07:15:06 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 14, 2014, 06:59:37 PM
Great turnout tonight in West Belfast for Gaza,white line picket from Divis to bottom of Whiterock.
Not so bad, itll be all sorted by morning so
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 14, 2014, 07:45:52 PM
Quote from: Old yeller on July 14, 2014, 07:15:06 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 14, 2014, 06:59:37 PM
Great turnout tonight in West Belfast for Gaza,white line picket from Divis to bottom of Whiterock.
Not so bad, itll be all sorted by morning so

Don't be a dick :-[
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 14, 2014, 08:56:12 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2013/may/13/stephen-hawking-boycott-israel-science (http://www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2013/may/13/stephen-hawking-boycott-israel-science)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2014, 07:55:23 PM
Viral meningitis has been reported in 3 UN shelters in Gaza. Israel destroyed the sewage system the last time it killed masses of people in the strip. The UN says the zone will be unliveable by 2020. I don't think Israel has done any long term thinking on its punitive policies.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on July 15, 2014, 08:16:59 PM
http://israelsoccupation.blogspot.sg/2014/06/2014-australian-documentary-exposes.html (http://israelsoccupation.blogspot.sg/2014/06/2014-australian-documentary-exposes.html)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 15, 2014, 11:28:41 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 15, 2014, 08:16:59 PM
http://israelsoccupation.blogspot.sg/2014/06/2014-australian-documentary-exposes.html (http://israelsoccupation.blogspot.sg/2014/06/2014-australian-documentary-exposes.html)

Thanks for that, truly shocking stuff.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 15, 2014, 11:50:08 PM
I was flicking round facebook earlier to find a photo put up by a 50+ year old, supposedly educated, man posting a photo saying "i stand with israel" and also putting a comment of "they didn't start it" :-\

Staggering really some people's perceptions of the world.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on July 16, 2014, 09:37:07 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 15, 2014, 11:28:41 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 15, 2014, 08:16:59 PM
http://israelsoccupation.blogspot.sg/2014/06/2014-australian-documentary-exposes.html (http://israelsoccupation.blogspot.sg/2014/06/2014-australian-documentary-exposes.html)

Thanks for that, truly shocking stuff.

Shocking yet not shocking. Systematic is what it is. The power of religion to do bad in the world. One seriously fcuked up place
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: armaghniac on July 16, 2014, 01:11:51 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 16, 2014, 09:37:07 AM
Shocking yet not shocking. Systematic is what it is. The power of religion to do bad in the world. One seriously fcuked up place

This is shocking stuff. But it is cheap shot to bring religion into it. This is an ethnic conflict,  the soldiers might well be non religious and the child too.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ballinaman on July 16, 2014, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 15, 2014, 08:16:59 PM
http://israelsoccupation.blogspot.sg/2014/06/2014-australian-documentary-exposes.html (http://israelsoccupation.blogspot.sg/2014/06/2014-australian-documentary-exposes.html)
Cheers Jim. Unbelievable stuff... >:(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 10, 2014, 07:07:58 PM
It is hard to know which are worse, the Israeli leadership who are positively medieval in their thinking and bloodlust, or the Palestinian traitors who think launching useless rockets at Israel is a good idea.

Damning evidence today of kids on a beach being deliberately targeted from gunboats off-shore.

In the video you can see kids running along a beach after a shell has explodes. One is wearing a distinctive green t-shirt. Another shell goes off. Next thing t-shirt boy of @10 is being carried limp into an ambulance. WTF.

Now that is not a war crime - there is no war. That is just murder. Israel says that they will hold an investigation. What a joke. It s simple ethnic cleansing. Yeah Hamas give them an excuse and boy do they take it. There will be a ceasefire but these hostilities will drive more Palistinians out. The next bouts will drive more out until the area is cleansed. Targeting the kids is the oldest trick in the book. Not only do you take out a potential adversary 10 years down the road you also take out all the potential kids and grandkids etc. they would have. Not only is it murder, it is planned and systematic. And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on July 16, 2014, 11:53:26 PM
Absolutely sickening and heart breaking stuff on the news earlier tonight. What's happening in Gaza and the West Bank is a disgrace. How is this going unchallenged in wider political circles? The loss of any life in this is awful but when it's vastly one sided and made up of a considerable number of children it's completely unacceptable.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 17, 2014, 01:29:03 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on July 16, 2014, 11:53:26 PM
Absolutely sickening and heart breaking stuff on the news earlier tonight. What's happening in Gaza and the West Bank is a disgrace. How is this going unchallenged in wider political circles? The loss of any life in this is awful but when it's vastly one sided and made up of a considerable number of children it's completely unacceptable.

There are US carriers in the Med. that would have been aware/monitoring  that child-shoot earlier. The killers will be the heroes in the tradition of Begin, Moshe Dayan, Sharon and now Netanyahu ( who was a genuine brave war hero in his youth but has no choice now but to put a face on this killing of children)

The reality is unfortunately that the only way that the State of Israel can exist is by this type of campaign and being ahead as regards firepower. Talks of peace is a joke.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 09:34:52 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 17, 2014, 01:29:03 AM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on July 16, 2014, 11:53:26 PM
Absolutely sickening and heart breaking stuff on the news earlier tonight. What's happening in Gaza and the West Bank is a disgrace. How is this going unchallenged in wider political circles? The loss of any life in this is awful but when it's vastly one sided and made up of a considerable number of children it's completely unacceptable.

There are US carriers in the Med. that would have been aware/monitoring  that child-shoot earlier. The killers will be the heroes in the tradition of Begin, Moshe Dayan, Sharon and now Netanyahu ( who was a genuine brave war hero in his youth but has no choice now but to put a face on this killing of children)

The reality is unfortunately that the only way that the State of Israel can exist is by this type of campaign and being ahead as regards firepower. Talks of peace is a joke.
Netanyahu's brother was the hero, Moysider. He was killed rescuing hostages at Entebbe . Netanyahu is a mouth and an unreformable bigot.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 17, 2014, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 16, 2014, 01:11:51 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 16, 2014, 09:37:07 AM
Shocking yet not shocking. Systematic is what it is. The power of religion to do bad in the world. One seriously fcuked up place

This is shocking stuff. But it is cheap shot to bring religion into it. This is an ethnic conflict,  the soldiers might well be non religious and the child too.

You don't think religion has anything to do with it? How does an ethnic conflict start?

Anyways its fecking shocking and it seems the more the Israeli's do the less is done by their main backers. The dimwits can't see the knock on effect its having with hatred shown to American's by various terrorist groups
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 10:06:12 AM
Here's Netanyahu age 28 explaining his personal philosophy. He became prime minister and implemented it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrvK01XAvF8

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.603599
"Day after day, month after month, throughout the years of his government, Netanyahu has never missed an opportunity to speak of Palestinians as monsters, lacking morals and infinitely brutal. Not a week has gone by without him frightening us with warnings that they are rising up against us to murder us. So we cannot talk with them about an agreement, about peace, about life, because they are simply inhuman, they're not human beings. "

It's so easy to kill monsters . And so enjoyable.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 12:16:40 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 10, 2014, 07:07:58 PM
It is hard to know which are worse, the Israeli leadership who are positively medieval in their thinking and bloodlust, or the Palestinian traitors who think launching useless rockets at Israel is a good idea.

Damning evidence today of kids on a beach being deliberately targeted from gunboats off-shore.

In the video you can see kids running along a beach after a shell has explodes. One is wearing a distinctive green t-shirt. Another shell goes off. Next thing t-shirt boy of @10 is being carried limp into an ambulance. WTF.

Now that is not a war crime - there is no war. That is just murder. Israel says that they will hold an investigation. What a joke. It s simple ethnic cleansing. Yeah Hamas give them an excuse and boy do they take it. There will be a ceasefire but these hostilities will drive more Palistinians out. The next bouts will drive more out until the area is cleansed. Targeting the kids is the oldest trick in the book. Not only do you take out a potential adversary 10 years down the road you also take out all the potential kids and grandkids etc. they would have. Not only is it murder, it is planned and systematic. And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

Why don't the European Union or the European powers step in ? The only thing that will stop escalations like this for an external force with a bigger stick than the Israelies to step in and keep the peace. If its not going to be the US then who will it be ?

Why do Europeans feel they have no obligations to solve this problem ? and I mean real obligations not simply wailing about what the US should do.

The state of Israel probably would not exist were it not for the extreme anti-Semitism that came to ahead with the holocaust in Europe. The map of the middle east was drawn by European powers. Europe has a debt to pay yet they seem oblivious to their role in all of this.





Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 12:57:10 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 12:16:40 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 10, 2014, 07:07:58 PM
It is hard to know which are worse, the Israeli leadership who are positively medieval in their thinking and bloodlust, or the Palestinian traitors who think launching useless rockets at Israel is a good idea.

Damning evidence today of kids on a beach being deliberately targeted from gunboats off-shore.

In the video you can see kids running along a beach after a shell has explodes. One is wearing a distinctive green t-shirt. Another shell goes off. Next thing t-shirt boy of @10 is being carried limp into an ambulance. WTF.

Now that is not a war crime - there is no war. That is just murder. Israel says that they will hold an investigation. What a joke. It s simple ethnic cleansing. Yeah Hamas give them an excuse and boy do they take it. There will be a ceasefire but these hostilities will drive more Palistinians out. The next bouts will drive more out until the area is cleansed. Targeting the kids is the oldest trick in the book. Not only do you take out a potential adversary 10 years down the road you also take out all the potential kids and grandkids etc. they would have. Not only is it murder, it is planned and systematic. And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

Why don't the European Union or the European powers step in ? The only thing that will stop escalations like this for an external force with a bigger stick than the Israelies to step in and keep the peace. If its not going to be the US then who will it be ?

Why do Europeans feel they have no obligations to solve this problem ? and I mean real obligations not simply wailing about what the US should do.

The state of Israel probably would not exist were it not for the extreme anti-Semitism that came to ahead with the holocaust in Europe. The map of the middle east was drawn by European powers. Europe has a debt to pay yet they seem oblivious to their role in all of this.
It is as much the fault of the Americans with their endless vetoes at the UN when the world wanted to bring Israel into line and their hopelessly biased role in the expansion of Jewish settlements that was called the peace process.
AIPAC is the biggest problem.



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on July 17, 2014, 01:06:56 PM
I think you are right on this one seafoid.  Any other power is all but useless when it comes to intervening here as the US will simply use their UN veto to scupper any response.

However, surely it would be best for other nations to bring some sort of resolution to the UN table to at least force the American's into doing this and thus highlighting their ridiculous stance.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 17, 2014, 01:14:56 PM
Quote from: Franko on July 17, 2014, 01:06:56 PM
I think you are right on this one seafoid.  Any other power is all but useless when it comes to intervening here as the US will simply use their UN veto to scupper any response.

However, surely it would be best for other nations to bring some sort of resolution to the UN table to at least force the American's into doing this and thus highlighting their ridiculous stance.

Sadly other political issues between the security council's permanent members will take priority over any slaughter in the Middle East.

It is time for everyone to balls up and stop waiting for someone else to do something. The EU should take the lead but sporting organisations made an impact against Apartheid before so, for example, the likes of FIFA could find some moral backbone that we all assume isn't there, and ban Israel. It would be small, but it would be a start.

The dipshits who fired the mortars from Gaza during the ceasefire should be shot. This stupidity and recklessness in the face of such a sick, twisted adversary is beyond any comprehension. It is like leading hungry lions into a creche. Complete f*ckits.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 02:58:47 PM
Quote from: Franko on July 17, 2014, 01:06:56 PM
I think you are right on this one seafoid.  Any other power is all but useless when it comes to intervening here as the US will simply use their UN veto to scupper any response.

However, surely it would be best for other nations to bring some sort of resolution to the UN table to at least force the American's into doing this and thus highlighting their ridiculous stance.

Look, people are very naïve. If you are Britain and France and you know the US is going to veto then of course its easy to make all the right noises , condemn the veto etc. You can look like you support the Palestinian cause but in reality its at the bottom of your list.

Also, any efforts there have been to get other countries on to the security council to dilute the power of the existing members has been opposed by other European countries.

Europe is willing to pay absolutely zero economic or political price (much less sacrifice any blood) to help normalize the situation in the middle east yet it seems to produce most of the rhetoric.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 03:18:51 PM
FT editorial

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/56e6ea6a-0cd0-11e4-bf1e-00144feabdc0.html

"Israeli policy has left the Palestinian Authority toothless and discredited, its land eaten away by the continuing occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. But Israel's reputation in the world is also eroding, and it is an illusion to think it can remain an oasis of peace and prosperity in a region on fire, so long as the Palestinians have no prospect of a viable state of their own."

The actor and comedian David Schneider on Twitter the last time Israel bombed the shit out of Gaza

"As a Jew, Israel's like a close family member who's hooked on heroin and you just don't know what to do with them any more."-
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

It does not leave them beyond reproach by any means but they definitely have justification for their paranoia, especially in regards to Europe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358 (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358)

People must not forget this no matter how unpopular that stance is to some people, especially on here.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 04:00:08 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

It does not leave them beyond reproach by any means but they definitely have justification for their paranoia, especially in regards to Europe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358 (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358)

People must not forget this no matter how unpopular that stance is to some people, especially on here.
The danger is that Israeli behavior leads to a resurgence in anti Semitism.

Jewish history is very sad but the Israelis  have inflicted an awful lot of unnecessary pain on the Palestinians.
It would be better to just give the Palestinians a state and try to live in the future rather than the past.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 06:46:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 04:00:08 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

It does not leave them beyond reproach by any means but they definitely have justification for their paranoia, especially in regards to Europe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358 (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358)

People must not forget this no matter how unpopular that stance is to some people, especially on here.
The danger is that Israeli behavior leads to a resurgence in anti Semitism.

Jewish history is very sad but the Israelis  have inflicted an awful lot of unnecessary pain on the Palestinians.
It would be better to just give the Palestinians a state and try to live in the future rather than the past.

You have the cart before the horse. You can't leave the past behind if it keeps following you. If there is anti-Semitism in response to Israeli action it is more a case of pre-exsiting attitudes being exposed rather than "new" anti-semitism. Its like the "quenelle". People
can say whatever they want about it being an "anti-establishment" symbol. Right thinking people see through that. Wrt the middle east, Hamas  and the likes of Ahmadinejad are very effective at exploiting and contributing to this form of sectarian hatred


The only way there will be peace IMO is if the international community steps in to restrain the Israelis BUT , at the same time, ensures their security. By ensuring their security you effectively call their bluff. If its "land for peace" then give them the peace and they must give back the land, they will have no excuses after that. If they step out of line after that then I'd support bombing them into the Mediterranean. But you must be as equally ruthless with Hamas as well as the other Arab neighbours.

The problem is that the international community probably wont do this in which case the Israelies will be neither protected nor restrained and all the inevitable tit-for-tat escalations will continue.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 07:08:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 06:46:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 04:00:08 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

It does not leave them beyond reproach by any means but they definitely have justification for their paranoia, especially in regards to Europe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358 (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358)

People must not forget this no matter how unpopular that stance is to some people, especially on here.
The danger is that Israeli behavior leads to a resurgence in anti Semitism.

Jewish history is very sad but the Israelis  have inflicted an awful lot of unnecessary pain on the Palestinians.
It would be better to just give the Palestinians a state and try to live in the future rather than the past.

You have the cart before the horse. You can't leave the past behind if it keeps following you. If there is anti-Semitism in response to Israeli action it is more a case of pre-exsiting attitudes being exposed rather than "new" anti-semitism. Its like the "quenelle". People
can say whatever they want about it being an "anti-establishment" symbol. Right thinking people see through that. Wrt the middle east, Hamas  and the likes of Ahmadinejad are very effective at exploiting and contributing to this form of sectarian hatred


The only way there will be peace IMO is if the international community steps in to restrain the Israelis BUT , at the same time, ensures their security. By ensuring their security you effectively call their bluff. If its "land for peace" then give them the peace and they must give back the land, they will have no excuses after that. If they step out of line after that then I'd support bombing them into the Mediterranean. But you must be as equally ruthless with Hamas as well as the other Arab neighbours.

The problem is that the international community probably wont do this in which case the Israelies will be neither protected nor restrained and all the inevitable tit-for-tat escalations will continue.
The problem is that Israel is on the coastal plan and the Palestinians are confined to Gaza and the mountains. It's very like the colonial experience in tyrone. The shit land was in the mountains. And they didn't have time to conquer the mountains until 67 when it was too late. 
Israel is inherently vulnerable because of this. They picked a very bad site for their national experiment.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rfOpioIFZAU/0.jpg
In order to rectify it they have to run apartheid.
Which is a bigger risk.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 07:43:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 07:08:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 06:46:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 04:00:08 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

It does not leave them beyond reproach by any means but they definitely have justification for their paranoia, especially in regards to Europe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358 (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358)

People must not forget this no matter how unpopular that stance is to some people, especially on here.
The danger is that Israeli behavior leads to a resurgence in anti Semitism.

Jewish history is very sad but the Israelis  have inflicted an awful lot of unnecessary pain on the Palestinians.
It would be better to just give the Palestinians a state and try to live in the future rather than the past.

You have the cart before the horse. You can't leave the past behind if it keeps following you. If there is anti-Semitism in response to Israeli action it is more a case of pre-exsiting attitudes being exposed rather than "new" anti-semitism. Its like the "quenelle". People
can say whatever they want about it being an "anti-establishment" symbol. Right thinking people see through that. Wrt the middle east, Hamas  and the likes of Ahmadinejad are very effective at exploiting and contributing to this form of sectarian hatred


The only way there will be peace IMO is if the international community steps in to restrain the Israelis BUT , at the same time, ensures their security. By ensuring their security you effectively call their bluff. If its "land for peace" then give them the peace and they must give back the land, they will have no excuses after that. If they step out of line after that then I'd support bombing them into the Mediterranean. But you must be as equally ruthless with Hamas as well as the other Arab neighbours.

The problem is that the international community probably wont do this in which case the Israelies will be neither protected nor restrained and all the inevitable tit-for-tat escalations will continue.
The problem is that Israel is on the coastal plan and the Palestinians are confined to Gaza and the mountains. It's very like the colonial experience in tyrone. The shit land was in the mountains. And they didn't have time to conquer the mountains until 67 when it was too late. 
Israel is inherently vulnerable because of this. They picked a very bad site for their national experiment.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rfOpioIFZAU/0.jpg
In order to rectify it they have to run apartheid.
Which is a bigger risk.

They did not "pick" the site. They consider it their homeland in the same way that Palestinians consider it their homeland. By continuing to make these statements the clear implication is that they don't have a right to live there.

As for the original partition. Take that up with the UN. As long as both sides agree to return to the original borders (with whatever mutual land swaps that are negotiated) then it does not matter about the terrain. As far as I am concerned that would be a problem for the international community or whoever is tasked with maintaining the peace. If they want an end to the conflict then they must take on this responsibility.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 08:18:15 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 07:43:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 07:08:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 06:46:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 04:00:08 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

It does not leave them beyond reproach by any means but they definitely have justification for their paranoia, especially in regards to Europe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358 (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358)

People must not forget this no matter how unpopular that stance is to some people, especially on here.
The danger is that Israeli behavior leads to a resurgence in anti Semitism.

Jewish history is very sad but the Israelis  have inflicted an awful lot of unnecessary pain on the Palestinians.
It would be better to just give the Palestinians a state and try to live in the future rather than the past.

You have the cart before the horse. You can't leave the past behind if it keeps following you. If there is anti-Semitism in response to Israeli action it is more a case of pre-exsiting attitudes being exposed rather than "new" anti-semitism. Its like the "quenelle". People
can say whatever they want about it being an "anti-establishment" symbol. Right thinking people see through that. Wrt the middle east, Hamas  and the likes of Ahmadinejad are very effective at exploiting and contributing to this form of sectarian hatred


The only way there will be peace IMO is if the international community steps in to restrain the Israelis BUT , at the same time, ensures their security. By ensuring their security you effectively call their bluff. If its "land for peace" then give them the peace and they must give back the land, they will have no excuses after that. If they step out of line after that then I'd support bombing them into the Mediterranean. But you must be as equally ruthless with Hamas as well as the other Arab neighbours.

The problem is that the international community probably wont do this in which case the Israelies will be neither protected nor restrained and all the inevitable tit-for-tat escalations will continue.
The problem is that Israel is on the coastal plan and the Palestinians are confined to Gaza and the mountains. It's very like the colonial experience in tyrone. The shit land was in the mountains. And they didn't have time to conquer the mountains until 67 when it was too late. 
Israel is inherently vulnerable because of this. They picked a very bad site for their national experiment.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rfOpioIFZAU/0.jpg
In order to rectify it they have to run apartheid.
Which is a bigger risk.

They did not "pick" the site. They consider it their homeland in the same way that Palestinians consider it their homeland. By continuing to make these statements the clear implication is that they don't have a right to live there.

As for the original partition. Take that up with the UN. As long as both sides agree to return to the original borders (with whatever mutual land swaps that are negotiated) then it does not matter about the terrain. As far as I am concerned that would be a problem for the international community or whoever is tasked with maintaining the peace. If they want an end to the conflict then they must take on this responsibility.
they had been looking at Paraguay and Uganda too
it was easier to dispossess the Palestinians.
In the final analysis the religious link took precedence over the security angle.
Which was not rational. 

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 17, 2014, 08:49:13 PM
Trish Regan‏@trish_regan  2m
Breaking:  Israel begins ground operation in #Gaza.  Live pictures now of heavy artillery fire lighting up to sky.  Watch live @BloombergTV


The hungry lions have been let into the creche, in the name of peace of course.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 08:52:00 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 17, 2014, 08:49:13 PM
Trish Regan‏@trish_regan  2m
Breaking:  Israel begins ground operation in #Gaza.  Live pictures now of heavy artillery fire lighting up to sky.  Watch live @BloombergTV


The hungry lions have been let into the creche, in the name of peace of course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAlNrtcPCLw
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 17, 2014, 08:56:23 PM
http://www.worldbulletin.net/africa/140840/chile-to-freeze-trade-talks-with-israel-over-gaza-bombing (http://www.worldbulletin.net/africa/140840/chile-to-freeze-trade-talks-with-israel-over-gaza-bombing)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 17, 2014, 09:00:20 PM
It seems they won't be happy until they obliterate the place and everyone in it. Shocking.

What has Obama got to say? The lack of action by britain, america etc is shocking.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: bcarrier on July 17, 2014, 09:06:53 PM
Timed for minimum news impact after Malaysia plane downed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on July 17, 2014, 09:14:07 PM
BBC reporting Israel have started a ground offensive into Gaza.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on July 17, 2014, 09:20:44 PM
Isreal has to be stopped, one way or the other.  they are the low of the low.  Even here in the states you can see the tide turning against them.  Thanks to social media the truth about this part of the world is eventually coming out.  No thanks to CNN,FOX etc.
Eyes of the world on Russia and the plane crash so they see it as perfect time to invade Gaza with a ground attack. Cowards!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 17, 2014, 08:56:23 PM
http://www.worldbulletin.net/africa/140840/chile-to-freeze-trade-talks-with-israel-over-gaza-bombing (http://www.worldbulletin.net/africa/140840/chile-to-freeze-trade-talks-with-israel-over-gaza-bombing)
Chile has a huge Palestinian population. Many  Christians who were ethnically cleansed in 1948 went to Chile to join previous waves of emigrants.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_Deportivo_Palestino
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dec on July 17, 2014, 09:40:02 PM
There is a US right wing discussion forum called Free Republic.

Here is their thread on the invasion

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3181618/posts
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 09:43:56 PM
Quote from: dec on July 17, 2014, 09:40:02 PM
There is a US right wing discussion forum called Free Republic.

Here is their thread on the invasion

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3181618/posts
I remember that site from when the Yanks invaded Iraq.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 08:18:15 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 07:43:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 07:08:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 06:46:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 04:00:08 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 17, 2014, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2014, 11:38:02 PM
And they will continue to get away with it because of their own dreadful experiences in Europe ( which leaves them beyond reproach to an extent) and because the no US administration can afford to reel them in.

It does not leave them beyond reproach by any means but they definitely have justification for their paranoia, especially in regards to Europe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358 (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28335358)

People must not forget this no matter how unpopular that stance is to some people, especially on here.
The danger is that Israeli behavior leads to a resurgence in anti Semitism.

Jewish history is very sad but the Israelis  have inflicted an awful lot of unnecessary pain on the Palestinians.
It would be better to just give the Palestinians a state and try to live in the future rather than the past.

You have the cart before the horse. You can't leave the past behind if it keeps following you. If there is anti-Semitism in response to Israeli action it is more a case of pre-exsiting attitudes being exposed rather than "new" anti-semitism. Its like the "quenelle". People
can say whatever they want about it being an "anti-establishment" symbol. Right thinking people see through that. Wrt the middle east, Hamas  and the likes of Ahmadinejad are very effective at exploiting and contributing to this form of sectarian hatred


The only way there will be peace IMO is if the international community steps in to restrain the Israelis BUT , at the same time, ensures their security. By ensuring their security you effectively call their bluff. If its "land for peace" then give them the peace and they must give back the land, they will have no excuses after that. If they step out of line after that then I'd support bombing them into the Mediterranean. But you must be as equally ruthless with Hamas as well as the other Arab neighbours.

The problem is that the international community probably wont do this in which case the Israelies will be neither protected nor restrained and all the inevitable tit-for-tat escalations will continue.
The problem is that Israel is on the coastal plan and the Palestinians are confined to Gaza and the mountains. It's very like the colonial experience in tyrone. The shit land was in the mountains. And they didn't have time to conquer the mountains until 67 when it was too late. 
Israel is inherently vulnerable because of this. They picked a very bad site for their national experiment.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rfOpioIFZAU/0.jpg
In order to rectify it they have to run apartheid.
Which is a bigger risk.

They did not "pick" the site. They consider it their homeland in the same way that Palestinians consider it their homeland. By continuing to make these statements the clear implication is that they don't have a right to live there.

As for the original partition. Take that up with the UN. As long as both sides agree to return to the original borders (with whatever mutual land swaps that are negotiated) then it does not matter about the terrain. As far as I am concerned that would be a problem for the international community or whoever is tasked with maintaining the peace. If they want an end to the conflict then they must take on this responsibility.
they had been looking at Paraguay and Uganda too
it was easier to dispossess the Palestinians.
In the final analysis the religious link took precedence over the security angle.
Which was not rational.

They would never be fully secure no matter where they went.  There is not much that is rational about the Israeli/Palestine. Not the action of the Israelies , not the shafting of the Palestinians and especially not the actions that led to the requirement for a jewish homeland in the first place.

However, the commonly agreed solution is the two state solution with Israel withdrawing from the occupied territories. If someone can guarantee that those borders would be respected and commit money and forces to implement that solution then I would be happy to back any punitive military action against Israel.

So far I see no evidence that any state or organization is willing to take that on and act equally against both sides.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2014, 09:54:44 PM
Israel just bombed al Wafa hospital in Gaza. Pour encourager les autres.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JP on July 18, 2014, 12:01:01 AM
Tanks have killed a 5 month year old baby......

This whole thing is disgusting. The west will watch on, the USA will continue to sponsor this massacre. They are hypocrites of the highest order. I really hope Ireland follows Chile's lead and cease all trade with Israel, and expel all Israelite diplomats on this island.

More then likely nothing will happen except for thousands of Palestines losing their lives. Makes me sick.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Nally Stand on July 18, 2014, 12:23:44 AM
And to think, Ireland's position on this, as far as foreign affairs are concerned, is being represented by the horrible, deceitful, bitter, west-brit, pro-Israeli b****rd Charlie Flanagan  :'(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 12:51:44 AM
Where is Give Her Dixie?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 04:04:58 AM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 12:51:44 AM
Where is Give Her Dixie?

Jim, I have taken a break from posting on this thread as what I was posting, how I was posting it, what I had to say and how I said it seemed to piss too many people off. Plus, I am sick to the back teeth of that p***k Sheehy fabricating lies about me in order to blacken my name. He is one spiteful bitter man who takes great delight in insulting me and my character.

If anyone wants to follow the news from Gaza, they can follow my news group Gaza TV News. I along with others based in Gaza are pushing out the news as it breaks.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GazaTVNews?ref_type=bookmark

Twitter:  https://twitter.com/GazaTVNews

Plus, please follow this group of Palestinians in Gaza live tweeting as the bombs rain down on them. It is horrific what they are posting, and heartbreaking:

https://twitter.com/occpal/lists/gazaunderattack

I am sick to the pit of my stomach what I have seen and heard over the past 10 days, and I just don't have the time or the words right now to convey how I truly feel.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 18, 2014, 12:02:36 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 04:04:58 AM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 12:51:44 AM
Where is Give Her Dixie?

Jim, I have taken a break from posting on this thread as what I was posting, how I was posting it, what I had to say and how I said it seemed to piss too many people off. Plus, I am sick to the back teeth of that p***k Sheehy fabricating lies about me in order to blacken my name. He is one spiteful bitter man who takes great delight in insulting me and my character.

If anyone wants to follow the news from Gaza, they can follow my news group Gaza TV News. I along with others based in Gaza are pushing out the news as it breaks.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GazaTVNews?ref_type=bookmark

Twitter:  https://twitter.com/GazaTVNews

Plus, please follow this group of Palestinians in Gaza live tweeting as the bombs rain down on them. It is horrific what they are posting, and heartbreaking:

https://twitter.com/occpal/lists/gazaunderattack

I am sick to the pit of my stomach what I have seen and heard over the past 10 days, and I just don't have the time or the words right now to convey how I truly feel.

your link to Nazi sympathizers was proven by your own posts linking you to said sites you lying p***k.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Ulick on July 18, 2014, 12:36:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

Nah, this is just the latest in series of cycles of Israeli violence and certainly won't be the last. They know exactly how far they can push things before their US sponsors have to reign them in. A few weeks after they do, it'll all be forgotten about, agreements on border crossings and blockades will be reneged on and five years from now they'll do the same thing again.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whiskeysteve on July 18, 2014, 12:42:11 PM
Keep it up GHD, ignore that Sheehy troll, poor chaps wrapped up in the poison of his own personal vendettas
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: balladmaker on July 18, 2014, 12:47:48 PM
Where's the greater Arab world in all of this, if ever a people were disowned by their own, it's the Palestinians, and disowned by the greater world also.  Shocking how much violience can be inflicted upon a people while the outside world stands idly by.  Israel know how far they can go with this, and are taking it to the very limit.  It is Genocide pure and simple, but we won't see Netanyahu at the Hague any time soon.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:49:29 PM
Quote from: Ulick on July 18, 2014, 12:36:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

Nah, this is just the latest in series of cycles of Israeli violence and certainly won't be the last. They know exactly how far they can push things before their US sponsors have to reign them in. A few weeks after they do, it'll all be forgotten about, agreements on border crossings and blockades will be reneged on and five years from now they'll do the same thing again.
No. The occupation is almost 50 years old. They are not interested in peace. They want all of the land and they have brutalised their society to achieve that goal. In 5 years you are more likely to see ethnic cleansing than anything else.

Israel is a really fucked up country. They never dealt with the trauma of the Holocaust. And the Yanks just encouraged them.

In the last 2 weeks

-  "death to arabs" riots all over the country
- young Palestinian man burnt alive by Orthodox Jews  - they poured petrol down his throat and lit it
- his American cousin beaten up on camera by Israeli cops
- 10 people blown to smithereens as they watch the World Cup at a Gaza beach cafe
- 18 members of the Al Batsh family killed all at once when Israel shelled their house
- calls for genocide of Palestinians widespread on Israeli social media
- killing of four young boys as they play soccer at the beach in front of hotel filled w/ international journos
- deliberate destruction of El Wafa Rehab Hospital

It's not stable
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 18, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on July 18, 2014, 12:42:11 PM
Keep it up GHD, ignore that Sheehy troll, poor chaps wrapped up in the poison of his own personal vendettas

I see as well as being homophobic you support GHD's extremism. No surprise there.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 18, 2014, 01:06:04 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on July 18, 2014, 12:47:48 PM
Where's the greater Arab world in all of this, if ever a people were disowned by their own, it's the Palestinians, and disowned by the greater world also.  Shocking how much violience can be inflicted upon a people while the outside world stands idly by.  Israel know how far they can go with this, and are taking it to the very limit.  It is Genocide pure and simple, but we won't see Netanyahu at the Hague any time soon.

There is plenty of discrimination against Palestinians in other Arab countries. Most Arab countries use the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as a diversionary tactic to deflect attention from internal domestic problems. During the Arab spring in Egypt you had both sides saying the other side was controlled by the Zionists. That should tell you something.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.
Hamas want the siege lifted. 80% of people in Gaza are on food aid because of the siege.
But that's never explained to people 
Israel is slowly killing Gaza. Hamas are entitled to try to change things.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whiskeysteve on July 18, 2014, 01:15:09 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 18, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on July 18, 2014, 12:42:11 PM
Keep it up GHD, ignore that Sheehy troll, poor chaps wrapped up in the poison of his own personal vendettas

I see as well as being homophobic you support GHD's extremism. No surprise there.

QED   8)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/dorsey/israeli-crowd-cheers-as-missile-hits-gaza-live-on-cnn
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 01:23:30 PM
On a separate note has anyone ever done any analysis of how the make-up of the Knesset would be affected by disenfranchsing the 600K illegal settlers in the occupied territories?

Assuming 300K are of voting age (Approx 11 seats worth) and are voting for Likud / Shas / The Jewish home, etc rather than the Centre left, could the Centre left (Yesh Atid / Labor / Hatnuah / Meretz / Hadash / Balad / Kadima / The Arab list, etc) form an alliance strong enough to govern.

Are Yesh Atid too tainted by this term in Government or is there any hope for the secular policies they once proclaimed?
UTJ claim to have no opinion on the occupied territories. Would they be for the 2 state solution?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 01:25:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.
Hamas want the siege lifted. 80% of people in Gaza are on food aid because of the siege.
But that's never explained to people 
Israel is slowly killing Gaza. Hamas are entitled to try to change things.
Are you condoning their attacks on Israel?
IMO they are not only futile but counter-productive as they give Israel the excuse they need and as a result children die.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: blast05 on July 18, 2014, 01:27:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.
Hamas want the siege lifted. 80% of people in Gaza are on food aid because of the siege.
But that's never explained to people 
Israel is slowly killing Gaza. Hamas are entitled to try to change things.

Seafoid, i'm late to this .... but what should Israel do ? Are they allowed to defend themselves ?
And what did Hamas really expect was going to happen when they kidnapped the 3 Israeli teenagers and killed them ?
There is a lot of fault on both sides but while Hamas continue on their current path, then there will always be trouble around the corner...
Worth a read: http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/what-exactly-is-hamas-trying-to-prove/374342/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on July 18, 2014, 01:28:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/dorsey/israeli-crowd-cheers-as-missile-hits-gaza-live-on-cnn

I actually happened to be watching this at the time. Made me feel ill. Thought the reporter herself looked nervous, her tweet explains why.  I wonder who made her delete the tweet, or i guess it could have been herself for safety reasons.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: blast05 on July 18, 2014, 01:27:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.
Hamas want the siege lifted. 80% of people in Gaza are on food aid because of the siege.
But that's never explained to people 
Israel is slowly killing Gaza. Hamas are entitled to try to change things.

Seafoid, i'm late to this .... but what should Israel do ? Are they allowed to defend themselves ?
And what did Hamas really expect was going to happen when they kidnapped the 3 Israeli teenagers and killed them ?
There is a lot of fault on both sides but while Hamas continue on their current path, then there will always be trouble around the corner...
Worth a read: http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/what-exactly-is-hamas-trying-to-prove/374342/
They should quit the bullshit and give the Palestinians a state and start observing international law for a change.
They are running an apartheid system.  The siege of Gaza is immoral.
Even if 3 Jews were killed what is the point of spending half a billion dollars bombing the shit out of Gaza? Is it going to make Jews safer?
The whole situation is insane. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:46:20 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 01:23:30 PM
On a separate note has anyone ever done any analysis of how the make-up of the Knesset would be affected by disenfranchsing the 600K illegal settlers in the occupied territories?

Assuming 300K are of voting age (Approx 11 seats worth) and are voting for Likud / Shas / The Jewish home, etc rather than the Centre left, could the Centre left (Yesh Atid / Labor / Hatnuah / Meretz / Hadash / Balad / Kadima / The Arab list, etc) form an alliance strong enough to govern.

Are Yesh Atid too tainted by this term in Government or is there any hope for the secular policies they once proclaimed?
UTJ claim to have no opinion on the occupied territories. Would they be for the 2 state solution?
Yesh Atid hate the Orthodox but they aren't interested in 2 states, there is no constituency for that any more.
The Israeli political system is a big part of the problem- it's worse than Ireland for clientelism. 
The Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox vote for whoever will give them the most money.  52% of junior infants in Jewish schools are Orthodox/Ultra and their parents  tend to be more extremist that secular Israelis.   
The settlers get a lot of cash that isn't visible in any of the accounts.
And Israel has pumped so much money- over 100 bn dollars- into the settlements that they don't want to change anything.
It's a mess.

Slaughtering Gazans brings everyone together.   

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 02:16:20 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 01:25:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.
Hamas want the siege lifted. 80% of people in Gaza are on food aid because of the siege.
But that's never explained to people 
Israel is slowly killing Gaza. Hamas are entitled to try to change things.
Are you condoning their attacks on Israel?
IMO they are not only futile but counter-productive as they give Israel the excuse they need and as a result children die.
International law is waived when it comes to Gaza. There are no Geneva Conventions for Gaza. why not? Because Gazans are not full people and poor Israel is the Jewish state.

Israel does whatever it wants. It'll kill people in hospital beds as necessary.

Hamas wants to leverage international disgust at the number of kids Israel kills  to lift the siege.  I think most decent people would support the people of Gaza. They have no other means of action. Netanyahu said last Friday there'll never be a Palestinian State. The Americans will veto everything at the UN. 

Israel's hatred of Gaza is limitless. They have to be stopped. It's going to destroy Israel anyway.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: orangeman on July 18, 2014, 05:08:05 PM
It seems to be a case now of how low you can go. There are no bounds. Nothing that cannot be excused or defended.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 05:49:08 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Hamas rejected the ceasefire as it was a scam put together by Blair, Sissi, Kerry and Netanyahu in order to corner Hamas so that the mass slaughter could go up a few notches by Israel.  Hamas were not even informed about the details of the ceasefire and what they knew about it was through the media.

It is all explained here

http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-07-16/how-us-and-blair-plotted-ceasefire-scam/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 05:51:33 PM
Quote from: blast05 on July 18, 2014, 01:27:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.
Hamas want the siege lifted. 80% of people in Gaza are on food aid because of the siege.
But that's never explained to people 
Israel is slowly killing Gaza. Hamas are entitled to try to change things.

Seafoid, i'm late to this .... but what should Israel do ? Are they allowed to defend themselves ?
And what did Hamas really expect was going to happen when they kidnapped the 3 Israeli teenagers and killed them ?
There is a lot of fault on both sides but while Hamas continue on their current path, then there will always be trouble around the corner...
Worth a read: http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/what-exactly-is-hamas-trying-to-prove/374342/

What evidence do you have that Hamas kidnapped the boys?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 05:56:09 PM
How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza

Kidnap, Crackdown, Mutual Missteps and a Hail of Rockets

By J.J. Goldberg

In the flood of angry words that poured out of Israel and Gaza during a week of spiraling violence, few statements were more blunt, or more telling, than this throwaway line by the chief spokesman of the Israeli military, Brigadier General Moti Almoz, speaking July 8 on Army Radio's morning show: "We have been instructed by the political echelon to hit Hamas hard."

That's unusual language for a military mouthpiece. Typically they spout lines like "We will take all necessary actions" or "The state of Israel will defend its citizens." You don't expect to hear: "This is the politicians' idea. They're making us do it."

Admittedly, demurrals on government policy by Israel's top defense brass, once virtually unthinkable, have become almost routine in the Netanyahu era. Usually, though, there's some measure of subtlety or discretion. This particular interview was different. Where most disagreements involve policies that might eventually lead to some future unnecessary war, this one was about an unnecessary war they were now stumbling into.

Spokesmen don't speak for themselves. Almoz was expressing a frustration that was building in the army command for nearly a month, since the June 12 kidnapping of three Israeli yeshiva boys. The crime set off a chain of events in which Israel gradually lost control of the situation, finally ending up on the brink of a war that nobody wanted — not the army, not the government, not even the enemy, Hamas.

The frustration had numerous causes. Once the boys' disappearance was known, troops began a massive, 18-day search-and-rescue operation, entering thousands of homes, arresting and interrogating hundreds of individuals, racing against the clock. Only on July 1, after the boys' bodies were found, did the truth come out: The government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations.

The initial evidence was the recording of victim Gilad Shaer's desperate cellphone call to Moked 100, Israel's 911. When the tape reached the security services the next morning — neglected for hours by Moked 100 staff — the teen was heard whispering "They've kidnapped me" ("hatfu oti") followed by shouts of "Heads down," then gunfire, two groans, more shots, then singing in Arabic. That evening searchers found the kidnappers' abandoned, torched Hyundai, with eight bullet holes and the boys' DNA. There was no doubt.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately placed a gag order on the deaths. Journalists who heard rumors were told the Shin Bet wanted the gag order to aid the search. For public consumption, the official word was that Israel was "acting on the assumption that they're alive." It was, simply put, a lie.

Moti Almoz, as army spokesman, was in charge of repeating the lie. True, others backed him up, including Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon. But when the truth came out on July 1, Almoz bore the brunt of public derision. Critics said his credibility was shot. He'd only been spokesman since October, after a long career as a blunt-talking field commander with no media experience. Others felt professional frustration. His was personal.

Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren't acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas' Hebron branch — more a crime family than a clandestine organization — had a history of acting without the leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests. Yet Netanyahu repeatedly insisted Hamas was responsible for the crime and would pay for it.

This put him in a ticklish position. His rhetoric raised expectations that after demolishing Hamas in the West Bank he would proceed to Gaza. Hamas in Gaza began preparing for it. The Israeli right — settler leaders, hardliners in his own party — began demanding it.

But Netanyahu had no such intention. The last attack on Gaza, the eight-day Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, targeted Hamas leaders and taught a sobering lesson. Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since, and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013. Neither side had any desire to end the détente. Besides, whatever might replace Hamas in Gaza could only be worse.

The kidnapping and crackdown upset the balance. In Israel, grief and anger over the boys' disappearance grew steadily as the fabricated mystery stretched into a second and third week. Rallies and prayer meetings were held across the country and in Jewish communities around the world. The mothers were constantly on television. One addressed the United Nations in Geneva to plead for her son's return. Jews everywhere were in anguish over the unceasing threat of barbaric Arab terror plaguing Israel.

This, too, was misleading. The last seven years have been the most tranquil in Israel's history. Terror attacks are a fraction of the level during the nightmare intifada years — just six deaths in all of 2013. But few notice. The staged agony of the kidnap search created, probably unintentionally, what amounts to a mass, worldwide attack of post-traumatic stress flashback.

When the bodies were finally found, Israelis' anger exploded into calls for revenge, street riots and, finally, murder.

Amid the rising tension, cabinet meetings in Jerusalem turned into shouting matches. Ministers on the right demanded the army reoccupy Gaza and destroy Hamas. Netanyahu replied, backed by the army and liberal ministers, that the response must be measured and careful. It was an unaccustomed and plainly uncomfortable role for him. He was caught between his pragmatic and ideological impulses.

In Gaza, leaders went underground. Rocket enforcement squads stopped functioning and jihadi rocket firing spiked. Terror squads began preparing to counterattack Israel through tunnels. One tunnel exploded on June 19 in an apparent work accident, killing five Hamas gunmen, convincing some in Gaza that the Israeli assault had begun while reinforcing Israeli fears that Hamas was plotting terror all along.

On June 29, an Israeli air attack on a rocket squad killed a Hamas operative. Hamas protested. The next day it unleashed a rocket barrage, its first since 2012. The cease-fire was over. Israel was forced to retaliate for the rockets with air raids. Hamas retaliated for the raids with more rockets. And so on. Finally Israel began calling up reserves on July 8 and preparing for what, as Moti Almoz told Army Radio, "the political echelon instructed."

Later that morning, Israel's internal security minister Yitzhak Aharonovitch told reporters that the "political echelon has given the army a free hand." Almoz returned to Army Radio that afternoon and confirmed that the army had "received an absolutely free hand" to act.

And how far, the interviewer asked, will the army go? "To the extent that it's up to the army," Almoz said, "the army is determined to restore quiet." Will simply restoring quiet be enough? "That's not up to us," he said. The army will continue the operation as long as it's told.

The operation's army code-name, incidentally, is "Protective Edge" in English, but the original Hebrew is more revealing: Tzuk Eitan, or "solid cliff." That, the army seems to feel, is where Israel is headed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 05:58:41 PM
Ayman Mohyeldin, the NBC News correspondent who personally witnessed yesterday's killing by Israel of four Palestinian boys on a Gazan beach and who has received widespread praise for his brave and innovative coverage of the conflict, has been told by NBC executives to leave Gaza immediately.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/17/nbc-removes-ayman-mohyeldin-gaza-coverage-witnesses-israeli-beach-killing-four-boys/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: orangeman on July 18, 2014, 06:03:18 PM
Any one seeking the truth in this or any conflict will naturally be very disappointed. Too bad when reporters can't report it as it is.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 06:09:00 PM
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on July 18, 2014, 01:28:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/dorsey/israeli-crowd-cheers-as-missile-hits-gaza-live-on-cnn

I actually happened to be watching this at the time. Made me feel ill. Thought the reporter herself looked nervous, her tweet explains why.  I wonder who made her delete the tweet, or i guess it could have been herself for safety reasons.

She got her P45 today

CNN has pulled correspondent Diana Magnay out of her post covering the Israeli-Palestinian conflict after the reporter tweeted that Israelis cheering bombs hitting Gaza, and who had allegedly threatened her, were "scum."

http://rt.com/usa/173888-cnn-reporter-scum-israel/#.U8lTMrSt61A.twitter
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 06:18:43 PM
38 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza by airstrikes and artillery fire since Israel launched a ground operation late Thursday, medics said.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714088
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 06:38:35 PM
Quote from: Ulick on July 18, 2014, 12:36:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

Nah, this is just the latest in series of cycles of Israeli violence and certainly won't be the last. They know exactly how far they can push things before their US sponsors have to reign them in. A few weeks after they do, it'll all be forgotten about, agreements on border crossings and blockades will be reneged on and five years from now they'll do the same thing again.

100% on the money.

This isn't about rockets right now, its just the bi annual mass slaughter that Israel launch in order to satisfy their thirst for blood and supremacy. They can do what they want, when they want, to whoever they want, in any country they want and there is nothing anyone is doing about it. They have the full support to kill at will. Killing the 4 boys in front of all the media was a message to everyone that they are above any law. The USA will always have their back at the UN.

This is all about the land. Nothing else. They want it, and they will do all they can to get it. The rockets this time are the latest excuse. In a couple of years time there will be another excuse and the cycle continues.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: The Iceman on July 18, 2014, 06:41:41 PM
"American's" are calling for huckabee to run for President based on his spot on calling of the situation in Gaza. Read the comments. Some crazy responses....
https://www.facebook.com/HuckabeeShow (https://www.facebook.com/HuckabeeShow)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ballinaman on July 18, 2014, 06:54:37 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 18, 2014, 06:41:41 PM
"American's" are calling for huckabee to run for President based on his spot on calling of the situation in Gaza. Read the comments. Some crazy responses....
https://www.facebook.com/HuckabeeShow (https://www.facebook.com/HuckabeeShow)
Absolute gobshite...closely followed by those comments  >:( >:( >:(....the blonde one is a rhoyde
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on July 18, 2014, 07:19:36 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 06:09:00 PM
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on July 18, 2014, 01:28:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/dorsey/israeli-crowd-cheers-as-missile-hits-gaza-live-on-cnn

I actually happened to be watching this at the time. Made me feel ill. Thought the reporter herself looked nervous, her tweet explains why.  I wonder who made her delete the tweet, or i guess it could have been herself for safety reasons.

She got her P45 today

CNN has pulled correspondent Diana Magnay out of her post covering the Israeli-Palestinian conflict after the reporter tweeted that Israelis cheering bombs hitting Gaza, and who had allegedly threatened her, were "scum."

http://rt.com/usa/173888-cnn-reporter-scum-israel/#.U8lTMrSt61A.twitter

That seems to answer my question.  Is there any news channel to watch that does not try and force feed Isreali lies?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 08:48:07 PM
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on July 18, 2014, 07:19:36 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 06:09:00 PM
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on July 18, 2014, 01:28:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/dorsey/israeli-crowd-cheers-as-missile-hits-gaza-live-on-cnn

I actually happened to be watching this at the time. Made me feel ill. Thought the reporter herself looked nervous, her tweet explains why.  I wonder who made her delete the tweet, or i guess it could have been herself for safety reasons.

She got her P45 today

CNN has pulled correspondent Diana Magnay out of her post covering the Israeli-Palestinian conflict after the reporter tweeted that Israelis cheering bombs hitting Gaza, and who had allegedly threatened her, were "scum."

http://rt.com/usa/173888-cnn-reporter-scum-israel/#.U8lTMrSt61A.twitter

That seems to answer my question.  Is there any news channel to watch that does not try and force feed Isreali lies?

Channel 4 news and John Snow is the only one to challenge the Hasbara spewed from the Israeli spokespeople.

This was John Snow grilling Mark Regev 2 days ago after the attack on the beach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-10JCxgEGLk
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 09:51:24 PM
It has been a tough few hours as Israel steps up its genocide programme.

Several families have been wiped out tonight. In one hit, 8 members of one family were killed.

In another, a paramedic went to rescue people in KhanYonis only to find his son among the victims.

5 members in another

In total, 22 entire families have been wiped out by Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ONeill on July 18, 2014, 09:53:07 PM
Can you become president of America without the Jewish vote/financial support?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 10:06:11 PM
Quote from: ONeill on July 18, 2014, 09:53:07 PM
Can you become president of America without the Jewish vote/financial support?

Not a chance.....

http://www.imemc.org/article/68523
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 10:13:33 PM
This is a great link for a twitter feed of Palestinians across various parts of Gaza who are tweeeting everything they see and hear.

https://twitter.com/occpal/lists/gazaunderattack
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Armaghgeddon on July 18, 2014, 10:18:14 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 09:51:24 PM
It has been a tough few hours as Israel steps up its genocide programme.

Several families have been wiped out tonight. In one hit, 8 members of one family were killed.

In another, a paramedic went to rescue people in KhanYonis only to find his son among the victims.

5 members in another

In total, 22 entire families have been wiped out by Israel

Are there any news articles for this?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 18, 2014, 10:25:54 PM
Rally at Belfast City hall tomorrow 3.00 pm
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 10:28:31 PM
Quote from: Armaghgeddon on July 18, 2014, 10:18:14 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 09:51:24 PM
It has been a tough few hours as Israel steps up its genocide programme.

Several families have been wiped out tonight. In one hit, 8 members of one family were killed.

In another, a paramedic went to rescue people in KhanYonis only to find his son among the victims.

5 members in another

In total, 22 entire families have been wiped out by Israel

Are there any news articles for this?

http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714213

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/bloody-friday-12-children-among-dozens-killed-israels-merciless-slaughter?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
Sheehy is a troll. He isn't really interested in Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 18, 2014, 10:43:09 PM
I don't think Sheehy is a troll or supports Israel. I think, like me, he recognises there are 2 sides in the wrong in this conflict. Seafood and old dixie can only see one side. That said Israel is committing war crimes and is a disgrace to civilisation. Hamas a bunch of clowns playing into their hands, the blood of innocents on both their hands.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Myles Na G. on July 18, 2014, 10:52:34 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 18, 2014, 10:43:09 PM
I don't think Sheehy is a troll or supports Israel. I think, like me, he recognises there are 2 sides in the wrong in this conflict. Seafood and old dixie can only see one side. That said Israel is committing war crimes and is a disgrace to civilisation. Hamas a bunch of clowns playing into their hands, the blood of innocents on both their hands.
+ 1
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 18, 2014, 11:18:49 PM

What is the agenda with Fox News?

Is this hawkish attitude common among Americans. One female presenter said 'what were those Hamas boys doing playing soccer on a beach during an Israeli operation?'

No wonder the American President can t criticise Israel.

Earlier though they wanted Obama to grab Putin by the balls over flight MH17. Some mouthpiece said that Russia needed to be taught a lesson. Compared to the US he said it was like a '20th Century gas station'  ???

Do ordinary Americand think like Fox? If they do god help us all.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 11:37:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 18, 2014, 10:43:09 PM
I don't think Sheehy is a troll or supports Israel. I think, like me, he recognises there are 2 sides in the wrong in this conflict. Seafood and old dixie can only see one side. That said Israel is committing war crimes and is a disgrace to civilisation. Hamas a bunch of clowns playing into their hands, the blood of innocents on both their hands.

What innocents have Hamas killed?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 11:41:26 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 05:49:08 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I think the future of Israel looks really grim after this latest savagery. They have nothing but contempt for the rights of the people of Gaza. Hamas are asking for the siege to be lifted and for Gazans to be allowed to go to East Jerusalem and they call up 60,000 soldiers and blow up a rehab hospital . The level of brainwashing to keep the Jews in Israel onside in all of this is phenomenal and it takes years to get it right.

They'll still be moaning about the Holocaust as their friends abandon them one by one.   

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/17/the_slaughter_of_innocents_gaza_israel_hamas_ukraine_mh71

"The sight of dead children not only weakens Israel politically and dents the country's international standing, but it taints every defensible action Israel might take and devalues any future peace by literally having snuffed it out for those who might have benefited from that better future."

Hamas rejected the Egyptian ceasefire offer. They are as bad as the IDF. Neither care about the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Hamas rejected the ceasefire as it was a scam put together by Blair, Sissi, Kerry and Netanyahu in order to corner Hamas so that the mass slaughter could go up a few notches by Israel.  Hamas were not even informed about the details of the ceasefire and what they knew about it was through the media.

It is all explained here

http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-07-16/how-us-and-blair-plotted-ceasefire-scam/

Cheers GH, an interesting read not exactly NPOV but I will take the not consulting Hamas at face value. As such it can be a justification for their rejection. That rejection was the only excuse the Israelis needed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 19, 2014, 12:03:46 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 11:37:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 18, 2014, 10:43:09 PM
I don't think Sheehy is a troll or supports Israel. I think, like me, he recognises there are 2 sides in the wrong in this conflict. Seafood and old dixie can only see one side. That said Israel is committing war crimes and is a disgrace to civilisation. Hamas a bunch of clowns playing into their hands, the blood of innocents on both their hands.

What innocents have Hamas killed?
I don't believe the 3 Israelis (2 of them children were killed by Hamas but rather by extremists however Hamas jihadis have been firing rockets with the intention of killing innocents.
Hamas are by no means innocent in all of this one sided conflict. The world knows the Israelis will produce a disproportionate response to any perceived aggression so IMO Hamas are playing fast and loose with the lives of the ordinary Palestinians for PR purposes.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 19, 2014, 12:11:13 AM
Why do Israel get away with their disproportionate retaliation? That's what I want to know.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 19, 2014, 12:22:00 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 19, 2014, 12:11:13 AM
Why do Israel get away with their disproportionate retaliation? That's what I want to know.
They wouldn't only for US backing. What I can't undetstand is why their Government gets so much backing from their own people. There is a significant minority against their actions, enough to show that it is unjustifyable but not enough to stop it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 12:39:48 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 19, 2014, 12:03:46 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 18, 2014, 11:37:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 18, 2014, 10:43:09 PM
I don't think Sheehy is a troll or supports Israel. I think, like me, he recognises there are 2 sides in the wrong in this conflict. Seafood and old dixie can only see one side. That said Israel is committing war crimes and is a disgrace to civilisation. Hamas a bunch of clowns playing into their hands, the blood of innocents on both their hands.

What innocents have Hamas killed?
I don't believe the 3 Israelis (2 of them children were killed by Hamas but rather by extremists however Hamas jihadis have been firing rockets with the intention of killing innocents.
Hamas are by no means innocent in all of this one sided conflict. The world knows the Israelis will produce a disproportionate response to any perceived aggression so IMO Hamas are playing fast and loose with the lives of the ordinary Palestinians for PR purposes.

If you think that Hamas are playing fast and loose, then you are very badly mistaken

You need to remember that Gaza has been under a brutal siege. Following the 2012 attacks, a ceasefire was pretty much held up by Hamas. Other groups fell into line and it held. Israel on the other hand violated the cease fire 278 recorded times. In the past year until just before this kicked off, they killed 70 + Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity government, and Netanyahu went mad. He then started to turn up the heat.

Things were fairly quiet up until the week before the Israelis went missing. Israel killed 2 young boys, and it was captured on CCTV. Then the Israelis go missing, and Netanyahu goes into full Hamas Hamas Hamas Hamas Iran Hamas Hamas Hamas Iran etc etc mode. As we know know, he knew the boys were dead, but he used that time to drum up world wide hatred for Hamas and Palestinians. The media fell into line and repeated him word for word.

Without one single shred of evidence, he convinced everyone Hamas kidnapped the 3. Then, when they were buried, the plan went astray a bit. The young Palestinian lad was kidnapped and burned alive. Netanyahu then launched an airstrike on Gaza knowing he was poking the nest. He got the reaction he was after as Islamic Jihad fired off some rockets, and he declared war.

So, what were Hamas and the other resistence groups to do? They knew the attack was coming and they had to defend themselves against the 4th largest army in the world. So when Israel came a knocking, they fired back with rockets. That is all they have to defend themselves with. No air force, no navy, no helicopters, just rockets.

As you have seen earlier in that article, you will see how Blair and his new boss Sissi colluded with Netanyahu and Kerry in order to get to where we are today. A mass slaughter by Israel, backed by Cameron, Merkel and Obama. And the media keep on repeating the Israeli lie "We agreed to a ceasefire, Hamas didn't"

In fact, Hamas had put forward their demands for a ceasefire before this offer from Egypt, and it was rejected. Nobody talks about that.

Right now across Gaza as bombs rain down on them, the vast majority of Palestinians are fully behind the resistance as they put up a fight against the brutal occupier breaking into their house. They have the right to defend themselves against the occupier, and they are exercising that right.

I don't see where Hamas have gone too far wrong in this, and the facts are there to prove Netanyahu provoked this attack on Gaza.

As John Pilger said "The 1st casualty of war is the truth"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2014, 12:45:45 AM
I've lived in the US for 20 years and know lots of Jewish people, a few Israelis and even a couple of ex Israeli special ops guys. All I can say is that there's 2 sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 19, 2014, 12:52:31 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 19, 2014, 12:11:13 AM
Why do Israel get away with their disproportionate retaliation? That's what I want to know.

Israel can only survive by bullying the region. They will never be accepted.

They have the backing of the US. Americans seem to regard Hamas, Al Quieda and Taliban as being the same gig. Palistinians, Iraq, Iran and Afganistan are all the same itch that needs to be scratched.  Terrorists basically and if civilians get killed it doesn t seem to be big deal. Have a look at Sky News Farr and it soon becomes clear why Israel gets away with it. Obama is being ridiculed as being soft with the Russians. If he even hinted at being critical of the Israelies he would be vilified as being soft on terrorism.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.

I think they would. As would all of their neighbours. Israel only survives because they are militarily superior. The fuss about the Iranian nuclear programme is all about the threat to Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:05:41 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.

Not a chance. All the Palestinians want to do is live in peace. something they havn't been able to do since 1948
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:08:23 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 12:45:45 AM
I've lived in the US for 20 years and know lots of Jewish people, a few Israelis and even a couple of ex Israeli special ops guys. All I can say is that there's 2 sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Of course there are 2 sides to every story. There is the side of the occupier, and the side of the occupied, the side of the strong, and the side of the weak, the side of the oppressor and the side of the oppressed.  We know what side the Palestinians are on
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:12:02 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.

I think they would. As would all of their neighbours. Israel only survives because they are militarily superior. The fuss about the Iranian nuclear programme is all about the threat to Israel.

And why do you think Hamas would do that considering they are an Islamic based organisation. You seem to be mixing them up with the Yanks and the Nazi's?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:12:02 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.

I think they would. As would all of their neighbours. Israel only survives because they are militarily superior. The fuss about the Iranian nuclear programme is all about the threat to Israel.

And why do you think Hamas would do that considering they are an Islamic based organisation. You seem to be mixing them up with the Yanks and the Nazi's?

Sorry, not sure what you mean there give her dixie.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:39:00 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:12:02 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.

I think they would. As would all of their neighbours. Israel only survives because they are militarily superior. The fuss about the Iranian nuclear programme is all about the threat to Israel.

And why do you think Hamas would do that considering they are an Islamic based organisation. You seem to be mixing them up with the Yanks and the Nazi's?

Sorry, not sure what you mean there give her dixie.

I mean that by their fait, they wouldn't be into going after millions of jews to kill them. I used the yanks and the Nazis as an example of 2 groups who have no problem with mass slaughter.

I have yet to meet a Palestinian in Gaza or beyond, or read any comment that would call for such a thing. They are dignified people who despite their hardships, just want to get on with life.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:44:34 AM
NBC reverse their decision after sustained pressure to send Ayman Mohyeldin back into Gaza 

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/reverses-mohyeldin-palestinian.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 01:45:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
Sheehy is a troll. He isn't really interested in Israel.

You said in a radio interview that Hamas violence was justified. You lie constantly to people on this board about your true intent.
You constantly call for the destruction of Israel and the elimination of the Jewish race on other websites and then come on here
and present yourself as a "voice of reason"

It may not be "popular" but I will continue to challenge you scumbags at every turn.




Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 01:51:03 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:44:34 AM
NBC reverse their decision after sustained pressure to send Ayman Mohyeldin back into Gaza 

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/reverses-mohyeldin-palestinian.html

Why do you support the Nazis on www.barnesreview.org

I have asked you many times to justify why you asked me to read a review by them on Mattias Changs anti-semitic book.

Answer the question you sc**bag.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 01:56:25 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.

Of course they would. That is the true aim aim of Hamas, Seafoid and GHD.

Ask GHD about his views on the two state solution..I'll bet he wont respond.

I'll be waiting if he does.....................
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 19, 2014, 02:16:02 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:39:00 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:12:02 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.

I think they would. As would all of their neighbours. Israel only survives because they are militarily superior. The fuss about the Iranian nuclear programme is all about the threat to Israel.

And why do you think Hamas would do that considering they are an Islamic based organisation. You seem to be mixing them up with the Yanks and the Nazi's?

Sorry, not sure what you mean there give her dixie.

I mean that by their fait, they wouldn't be into going after millions of jews to kill them. I used the yanks and the Nazis as an example of 2 groups who have no problem with mass slaughter.

I have yet to meet a Palestinian in Gaza or beyond, or read any comment that would call for such a thing. They are dignified people who despite their hardships, just want to get on with life.

Ok.  My point is that I don t think Israel was a good idea and can only exist by dent of military superiority. They are not going to go away and neither will the violence. US backing will always mean they will have the capability to defend themselves. So what s the solution? Israel are battle hardened - killing kids is not going to put them out. They took out an Arab Alliance in Yon Kippur. They could have been destroyed. Killing innocent Paleastinians is no big deal for them. And it doesn t seem to bother their US backers either. What can be done?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 02:39:53 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 02:16:02 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:39:00 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:12:02 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 19, 2014, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 19, 2014, 12:42:20 AM
Do you think Hamas would attempt to obliterate Jews if they had the military upper hand? Just asking, not judging.

I think they would. As would all of their neighbours. Israel only survives because they are militarily superior. The fuss about the Iranian nuclear programme is all about the threat to Israel.

And why do you think Hamas would do that considering they are an Islamic based organisation. You seem to be mixing them up with the Yanks and the Nazi's?

Sorry, not sure what you mean there give her dixie.

I mean that by their fait, they wouldn't be into going after millions of jews to kill them. I used the yanks and the Nazis as an example of 2 groups who have no problem with mass slaughter.

I have yet to meet a Palestinian in Gaza or beyond, or read any comment that would call for such a thing. They are dignified people who despite their hardships, just want to get on with life.

Ok.  My point is that I don t think Israel was a good idea and can only exist by dent of military superiority. They are not going to go away and neither will the violence. US backing will always mean they will have the capability to defend themselves. So what s the solution? Israel are battle hardened - killing kids is not going to put them out. They took out an Arab Alliance in Yon Kippur. They could have been destroyed.
Killing innocent Paleastinians is no big deal for them. And it doesn t seem to bother their US backers either. What can be done?

Moysider, read his words.

He said that Hamas

"wouldn't be into going after millions of jews to kill them"

and

"why do you think Hamas would do that considering they are an Islamic based organisation"

The killing of Jews is written into the Hamas Charter. It is actual jihadi law as far as they are concerned. GHD knows this, so why
would he be asking you why Hamas "would do that" ?

He is a liar and he is banking on the fact that you don't know what he, and Hamas are actually about.

Don't be fooled.

Hate Israeli action but don't let GHD and Seafoid poison you against jewish people. That is their goal.It is not right.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 03:29:02 AM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
What do you consider Israel "support" as opposed to simply taking a stand against the classical anti-Semitic stance ?

If someone states that Israel is guilty of war crimes, that they should obey UN directives, that points out the Religious extremism of the settlers, that states continuously that they should withdraw to the 1967 borders, that supports military strikes (by a neutral force) against
Israel, that has called numerous times for a buffer force that will hit the Israelies as a hard as they hit the Palestinians....

If the only concession that is requested is the security of the jewish people so that they do not face a second attempt at extermination then you tell me, JimStynes, you p***k, what you mean by an Israel "supporter".

I look forward to your response...if you have the guts.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 04:15:51 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 01:45:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
Sheehy is a troll. He isn't really interested in Israel.

You said in a radio interview that Hamas violence was justified. You lie constantly to people on this board about your true intent.
You constantly call for the destruction of Israel and the elimination of the Jewish race on other websites and then come on here
and present yourself as a "voice of reason"

It may not be "popular" but I will continue to challenge you scumbags at every turn.

btw , Here is your quote from mondowiess

seafoid February 11, 2011 at 12:44 pm with 1 replies   
QuoteThe last time I was on the [BBC's] Moral Maze I was hauled over the coals for saying that political violence – as part of a radical protest, say – is sometimes justifiable.
link to blogs.telegraph.co.uk

So perhaps you'd like to clarify what you meant by "political violence - as part of a radical protest, say, is sometimes justifiable"
Earlier in this thread you said that "Hamas are entitled to try and change things"

The only conclusion to these two statements is that you support Hamas bombing of Israel and that you are indifferent to the Palestnian deaths in response to this bombing.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 11:28:19 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 04:15:51 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 01:45:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
Sheehy is a troll. He isn't really interested in Israel.

You said in a radio interview that Hamas violence was justified. You lie constantly to people on this board about your true intent.
You constantly call for the destruction of Israel and the elimination of the Jewish race on other websites and then come on here
and present yourself as a "voice of reason"

It may not be "popular" but I will continue to challenge you scumbags at every turn.

btw , Here is your quote from mondowiess

seafoid February 11, 2011 at 12:44 pm with 1 replies   
QuoteThe last time I was on the [BBC's] Moral Maze I was hauled over the coals for saying that political violence – as part of a radical protest, say – is sometimes justifiable.
link to blogs.telegraph.co.uk

So perhaps you'd like to clarify what you meant by "political violence - as part of a radical protest, say, is sometimes justifiable"
Earlier in this thread you said that "Hamas are entitled to try and change things"

The only conclusion to these two statements is that you support Hamas bombing of Israel and that you are indifferent to the Palestnian deaths in response to this bombing.
I was never on BBC . You are getting your rants mixed up.And I never called for the elimination of the jewish race. That is a despicable slur. My beef is with Zionism. 

I think Israel is fucked. No need for us to do anything. They'll keep on murdering children and the world will boycott them. And Sheldon Adelson's money buys the silence of the US. It is the real life version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. A total clusterfuck.

Judaism will survive without Zionism. It always did before. Jews are way better than Zionism. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 11:29:52 AM
And you are a troll, sheehy. Defending the carnage in Gaza is very low, even for you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 11:36:27 AM
France has baaned protests for Gaza. The 1st country in the world to do so

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2014/07/19/Outrage-as-France-bans-pro-Palestine-demonstrations.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 11:52:01 AM
 Ministry Of Healthnow sets the death toll at 327 killed, and 2380 injured
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 11:54:23 AM
Senior Israeli minister Naftali Bennett said the people of Gaza were self genociding. Spoken like a true Nazi. Waiting for Sheehy to defend it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on July 19, 2014, 12:00:52 PM
Sheehy trying to defend in indefendable. What a lowlife. Wrongs on both sides but what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is sickening. The stats don't lie Sheehy you reptile.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Myles Na G. on July 19, 2014, 12:06:00 PM
the personal abuse on this board, and on this thread in particular, is pretty shocking. Are the moderators comfortable with this? I would post on several message boards and this is the only one where people are allowed to verbally abuse other posts without incurring any sanction as far as I can see.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:34:06 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bs5zBh5CAAAso99.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 01:55:21 PM
What if British had treated Northern Irish like Israel treats Palestine?

By Mira Bar Hillel – 18 July 2014

"People of Belfast! We, the British, have had enough of the deadly antics of the IRA who live among you and attack us using you as human shields.

"We hereby warn you to vacate your homes and leave your city, as we intend, without further notice, to bomb you back to the stone age, as our media is demanding. To that end we will also cut off your electricity so that your dialysis patients will discover whose blood is redder, on the advice of the Deputy Speaker of Parliament.

"Although there is no place for you to go, we will, of course, blame you for this, as you and your toddlers and hospital patients are very scary and lack all concern for civilians."

The Gaza strip, which actually received such a notice on Sunday and again on Tuesday, is a fraction the size of Northern Ireland but with a similar population. Its narrow, shambolic streets crammed full with desperate people trying to make ends meet.

Over the past decade we have had "Operation Cast Lead" (2008/9) in which illegal white phosphorus was employed, 1,400 Gazan civilians were killed including one family whose children bled to death on the roof because Israeli aircraft prevented their evacuation. The Israelis lost 11 soldiers. In "Operation Pillar of Smoke", (2012) hundreds more died, all Palestinian.

As far as Israel is concerned, the only change since then (apart from people like the woman who today tweeted that killing Arabs "gives me orgasms") has been that between each attack Hamas's rockets have increased their range.

They are still little more than toys compared with Israel's smart bombs and heavy artillery and – yes! – nukes, not to mention the sophisticated anti-rocket devices, sirens and shelters which help protect the Israeli population. But they allow Israel to remain – in its own eyes and those of its blinkered backers – always the victim.

Why do Israelis feel like this about people they have only ever overpowered? Growing up in Jerusalem in the 1950s and 60s, I was vaguely aware that we lived in close proximity to "The Arabs" (the word Palestinians didn't come into the vocabulary until after the 1967 war), but they might as well have been on another planet.

Instead of teaching Arabic as a second language in all schools, to enable us to communicate with our near neighbours, we were taught English, French and even Latin. The only demand for Arabic came from blokes who were looking for a career in military intelligence.

Importantly, back then there were virtually no rockets, no bus explosions, no suicide bombers. But also no respect. The Arabs were not like us, refined Western Jews who went to philharmonic concerts and competed in the Eurovision.

They were dirty, smelly, incomprehensible, mildly dangerous, not to be associated with whatsoever. The ones living in Israel were to shunned. Others would sneak over the border and try to do mischief (the word "terrorism" in its current meaning was only defined by the UN as recently as 2004) and were summarily dealt with by the army.

It is a short step from that attitude to the de-humanisation of the Palestinians, which is now ubiquitous. And if they're not quite human, then... well, just look at the news.

I don't think this happened in Northern Ireland even in the darkest days of The Troubles. Which is why I don't expect any Good Fridays in the Middle East any time soon.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/debateni/blogs/what-if-british-had-treated-northern-irish-like-israel-treats-palestine-30442606.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 02:13:48 PM
106 Palestinians have been killed in less than 48 hours since Israel launched a ground invasion of the besieged Gaza Strip, bringing the total number of dead in the 12-day assault to 335.

43 Palestinians were killed across the tiny coastal territory on Saturday amid intense Israeli airstrikes and shelling from both sea and land after more than 60 died the day before, while the number of injured since the beginning of hostilities reached 2,385, according to Gaza medical authorities.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714463&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on July 19, 2014, 02:34:18 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 02:13:48 PM
106 Palestinians have been killed in less than 48 hours since Israel launched a ground invasion of the besieged Gaza Strip, bringing the total number of dead in the 12-day assault to 335.

43 Palestinians were killed across the tiny coastal territory on Saturday amid intense Israeli airstrikes and shelling from both sea and land after more than 60 died the day before, while the number of injured since the beginning of hostilities reached 2,385, according to Gaza medical authorities.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714463&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Where is the international pressure from the west ? do they really give a rats arse ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 04:17:16 PM
So wullie fraser and co countered the palestinian protest in belfast today by protestin with israeli flags ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 05:35:05 PM
This is what we are dealing with.......


Expel Palestinians, populate Gaza with Jews, says Knesset deputy speaker

Israel must attack Gaza even more mercilessly, expel the population and resettle the territory with Jews, the deputy speaker of Israel's parliament, the Knesset, has said.

Moshe Feiglin, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's ruling Likud Party, makes the call in an article for the Israeli news website Arutz Sheva.

Feiglin demands that Israel launch attacks "throughout Gaza with the IDF's [Israeli army's] maximum force (and not a tiny fraction of it) with all the conventional means at its disposal."
Force Gaza population out

"After the IDF completes the 'softening' of the targets with its firepower, the IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations," Feiglin writes in one of several calls for outright war crimes.

Following the reconquest, Israel's army "will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrongdoing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave," Feiglin writes.

"Gaza is part of our land"

"Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever," Feiglin concludes. "Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel."

Feiglin has a long history of incitement. Last week he expelled Arab members of the Knesset who dared to criticize Israel's ongoing slaughter in Gaza and called for Israel to cut off power to dialysis patients there.

As of now, ninety percent of Gaza is without electricity, journalist Mohammed Omer reports, and most Palestinians in Gaza are getting as little as two hours of electricity per day.

Death toll climbs relentlessly

More than 100 Palestinians have been killed in the last 48 hours as Israel continues its indiscriminate attacks on Palestinians throughout the occupied Gaza Strip by land, sea and air.

By Saturday afternoon in Gaza, the thirteenth day of Israel's current bombardment and invasion of the coastal territory, 339 people, the vast majority civilians, had been killed in total and 2,500 injured.

Tens of thousands have fled their homes, primarily in the north and east of Gaza, seeking shelter from the Israeli assault in United Nations-run schools.
Genocidal demands

Feiglin's call for the destruction of the Palestinian community in Gaza has some resonance.

Just a day before Feiglin's article, Rabbi Ben Packer made a similar demand, calling the current assault "an opportunity for Israel to achieve a victory – to move the border" by conquering northern Gaza.

Packer is the director of "Heritage House," a settlement in occupied East Jerusalem that houses so-called "lone soldiers," men recruited from overseas to join the Israeli occupation forces.

Israel's former settlers in Gaza, evacuated in 2005, would be given the first opportunity to "settle in the regained territory," Packer said.

Packer, a settler from the United States and volunteer in the Israeli army, previously served as the "Rabbi on Campus" at the University of North Carolina and Duke University.

Calls like Feiglin's and Packer's for genocidal-scale violence against Palestinians are being heard with ever more frequency from Israeli leaders.

A call for genocide of the Palestinians by Ayelet Shaked, a rising star in Israel's Habeyit Hayehudi (Jewish Home) party, part of the government, received global notoriety after The Electronic Intifada translated and exposed it earlier this month.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/expel-palestinians-populate-gaza-jews-says-knesset-deputy-speaker

Link to Original article:  http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 05:56:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.
Hamas are as scum as the mayo men who were thrown into that blowhole in downpatrick head in 1798. 1798 was stupid too. The redcoats killed a lot of people in reprisal. It would have been better to do nothing and die in the famine. Gaza should just accept apartheid and eventual ethnic cleansing. Israel is psychotic now and will never allow a palestinian state.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on July 19, 2014, 06:52:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 03:29:02 AM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
What do you consider Israel "support" as opposed to simply taking a stand against the classical anti-Semitic stance ?

If someone states that Israel is guilty of war crimes, that they should obey UN directives, that points out the Religious extremism of the settlers, that states continuously that they should withdraw to the 1967 borders, that supports military strikes (by a neutral force) against
Israel, that has called numerous times for a buffer force that will hit the Israelies as a hard as they hit the Palestinians....

If the only concession that is requested is the security of the jewish people so that they do not face a second attempt at extermination then you tell me, JimStynes, you p***k, what you mean by an Israel "supporter".

I look forward to your response...if you have the guts.

(http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/20998_large_U_Mad_Wide.png)

I was asking an honest question as I am only in and out of this thread and you reply with insults. You and Willie must have been getting awfully wound up at those Palestinian Peace protests today.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 19, 2014, 06:57:49 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 05:56:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.
Hamas are as scum as the mayo men who were thrown into that blowhole in downpatrick head in 1798. 1798 was stupid too. The redcoats killed a lot of people in reprisal. It would have been better to do nothing and die in the famine. Gaza should just accept apartheid and eventual ethnic cleansing. Israel is psychotic now and will never allow a palestinian state.

Not accepting apartheid does not automatically mean firing useless rockets at the ethnic cleansers.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 06:58:36 PM
Click on this link as it is a live stream coming out of Gaza. They are pounding the shit out of the place right now

http://www.aa.com.tr/live1/gaza-live.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on July 19, 2014, 07:01:06 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 06:58:36 PM
Click on this link as it is a live stream coming out of Gaza. They are pounding the shit out of the place right now

http://www.aa.com.tr/live1/gaza-live.html

Was that you in Lurgan today GHD? Saw a few Israel supporters turned up as well!!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 07:04:16 PM
T'was me all right. The young boy in the car playing the flute band music wasn't long speeding off when he saw a few lads heading over......

Great turnout for such short notice
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 07:07:34 PM
Muppet

Normal channels are broken. Israel doesn't recognise either international law or the geneva conventions in gaza. The americans won't do anything because of all the jewish money that sponsors the politicians. Gaza is tired of being shafted. Israel will not tolerate a Palestinian state.
If they do nothing the siege continues.
What would you do?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.

Well I haven't seen the Israelis behead anyone for holding hands in public or who coerce preteen so to becoming suicide bombers with the promise of 35 virginia or whatever

There were 2 cease fires this week which would have given Hamas an out, but instead they choose war-fvckin losers

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 07:16:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas ar



http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.

Well I haven't seen the Israelis behead anyone for holding hands in public or who coerce preteen so to becoming suicide bombers with the promise of 35 virginia or whatever

There were 2 cease fires this week which would have given Hamas an out, but instead they choose war-fvckin losers
Israel is hardly civilised, whitey, they just have more sophisticated weapons.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 19, 2014, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.

Well I haven't seen the Israelis behead anyone for holding hands in public or who coerce preteen so to becoming suicide bombers with the promise of 35 virginia or whatever

There were 2 cease fires this week which would have given Hamas an out, but instead they choose war-fvckin losers

You are arguing for their slaughter on religious grounds?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 19, 2014, 07:38:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 07:07:34 PM
Muppet

Normal channels are broken. Israel doesn't recognise either international law or the geneva conventions in gaza. The americans won't do anything because of all the jewish money that sponsors the politicians. Gaza is tired of being shafted. Israel will not tolerate a Palestinian state.
If they do nothing the siege continues.
What would you do?

If you are arguing for Hamas firing rockets, which achieves absolutely nothing strategically or militarily, but has an horrific downside, then we will have to agree to disagree. You will not persuade me that there is any merit in it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: The Worker on July 19, 2014, 07:52:37 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 03:29:02 AM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
What do you consider Israel "support" as opposed to simply taking a stand against the classical anti-Semitic stance ?

If someone states that Israel is guilty of war crimes, that they should obey UN directives, that points out the Religious extremism of the settlers, that states continuously that they should withdraw to the 1967 borders, that supports military strikes (by a neutral force) against
Israel, that has called numerous times for a buffer force that will hit the Israelies as a hard as they hit the Palestinians....

If the only concession that is requested is the security of the jewish people so that they do not face a second attempt at extermination then you tell me, JimStynes, you p***k, what you mean by an Israel "supporter".

I look forward to your response...if you have the guts.


Looks like someone is throwing his toys outta the pram, miaowwww
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:54:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.

Well I haven't seen the Israelis behead anyone for holding hands in public or who coerce preteen so to becoming suicide bombers with the promise of 35 virginia or whatever

There were 2 cease fires this week which would have given Hamas an out, but instead they choose war-fvckin losers

You are arguing for their slaughter on religious grounds?



Have no idea where you pulled that from. I'm not  arguing for the slaughter of anyone
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on July 19, 2014, 08:02:26 PM
Quote from: The Worker on July 19, 2014, 07:52:37 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 19, 2014, 03:29:02 AM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 18, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Has Israel got any supporters in here apart from Sheehy?
What do you consider Israel "support" as opposed to simply taking a stand against the classical anti-Semitic stance ?

If someone states that Israel is guilty of war crimes, that they should obey UN directives, that points out the Religious extremism of the settlers, that states continuously that they should withdraw to the 1967 borders, that supports military strikes (by a neutral force) against
Israel, that has called numerous times for a buffer force that will hit the Israelies as a hard as they hit the Palestinians....

If the only concession that is requested is the security of the jewish people so that they do not face a second attempt at extermination then you tell me, JimStynes, you p***k, what you mean by an Israel "supporter".

I look forward to your response...if you have the guts.


Looks like someone is throwing his toys outta the pram, miaowwww

You're the next innocent victim in his firing line! Typical Israel supporter
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 19, 2014, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:54:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.

Well I haven't seen the Israelis behead anyone for holding hands in public or who coerce preteen so to becoming suicide bombers with the promise of 35 virginia or whatever

There were 2 cease fires this week which would have given Hamas an out, but instead they choose war-fvckin losers

You are arguing for their slaughter on religious grounds?



Have no idea where you pulled that from. I'm not  arguing for the slaughter of anyone

You seem to be arguing against anyone who says the slaughter in Gaza is wrong. Apologies if I have it wrong, but it is an easy connection to make.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2014, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:54:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 04:50:47 PM
Whats so fvcking annoying about this thread is the simplistic "Israelis are bad, Palestinian are innocent victims" undertone to most anti Israeli statements.

Extreme Islam is Incompatible which western democracy and that's what Hamas are


http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hamas-new-islamist-law-causes-fury-in-palestine-1.1309704


Hamas are murdering scumbags who DO in fact launch missiles from schools and hospitals-THAT IS A FACT.

The Israelis aren't much better in their response, but save me the perennial victim hood act

But yet somehow better?

Hamas and their terrorist predecessors in palestine are scum. They trigger a reaction they know will kill their own people. They are beneath contempt.

But to suggest the people who are so easily provoked into slaughtering the proverbial fish in a barrel are somehow better is about as twisted logic as you can get.

To my mind, the Israeli leadership are the 21st century's first real monsters.

Well I haven't seen the Israelis behead anyone for holding hands in public or who coerce preteen so to becoming suicide bombers with the promise of 35 virginia or whatever

There were 2 cease fires this week which would have given Hamas an out, but instead they choose war-fvckin losers

You are arguing for their slaughter on religious grounds?



Have no idea where you pulled that from. I'm not  arguing for the slaughter of anyone

You seem to be arguing against anyone who says the slaughter in Gaza is wrong. Apologies if I have it wrong, but it is an easy connection to make.

I think it's terrible and wrong, but I also think that Hamas is somewhat responsible for drawing it upon their people

They cannot militarily defeat Israel and every time they start firing rockets or kidnapping soldiers everyone knows what the outcome will be

There were TWO ceasefire this week-Hamas chose war over peace
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 09:35:46 PM
Jonathan Miller @millerC4 58m

The IDF told journalists that Hamas is using us as "human shields" and said it would facilitate our "expedited passage from Gaza"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:42:02 PM
Whitey
Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel guards it. Gaza has been under Israeli siege since 2007.
There was one ceasefire that hamas was not consulted about and a second of 5 hours to get medicine and food in after israel killed 4 10 year olds.
The American political system is responsible for Israel's behaviour. Rich Jews like Adelson have bought Obama and are buying all the 2016 candidates such as Christie and Warren. Israel is untouchable, above international law. Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted. Nobody else is going to help. Israel is run by sociopaths.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 07:38:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 07:07:34 PM
Muppet

Normal channels are broken. Israel doesn't recognise either international law or the geneva conventions in gaza. The americans won't do anything because of all the jewish money that sponsors the politicians. Gaza is tired of being shafted. Israel will not tolerate a Palestinian state.
If they do nothing the siege continues.
What would you do?

If you are arguing for Hamas firing rockets, which achieves absolutely nothing strategically or militarily, but has an horrific downside, then we will have to agree to disagree. You will not persuade me that there is any merit in it.
I think it's a strategic attempt to leverage international action to lift the siege. They know Israel will respond disproportionately and kill lots of children. They have reasonable demands. Maybe you believe Israel is a rational player that observes the rules. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 10:13:08 PM
Apparently Israel has far fewer collaborators in Gaza now so far less intelligence on what they are looking for. All the while they are killing children which goes down very badly outside Israel.
And today hamas militants used a tunnel to go 3km into Israel and kill 2 soldiers. This doesn't usually happen when israel goes turkey shooting.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:42:02 PM
Whitey
Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel guards it. Gaza has been under Israeli siege since 2007.
There was one ceasefire that hamas was not consulted about and a second of 5 hours to get medicine and food in after israel killed 4 10 year olds.
The American political system is responsible for Israel's behaviour. Rich Jews like Adelson have bought Obama and are buying all the 2016 candidates such as Christie and Warren. Israel is untouchable, above international law. Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted. Nobody else is going to help. Israel is run by sociopaths.

Help me out then.....Gaza shares a border with Egypt....which is a Muslim country

Why don't the Egyptians lift the siege and help them out?


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:26:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:42:02 PM
Whitey
Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel guards it. Gaza has been under Israeli siege since 2007.
There was one ceasefire that hamas was not consulted about and a second of 5 hours to get medicine and food in after israel killed 4 10 year olds.
The American political system is responsible for Israel's behaviour. Rich Jews like Adelson have bought Obama and are buying all the 2016 candidates such as Christie and Warren. Israel is untouchable, above international law. Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted. Nobody else is going to help. Israel is run by sociopaths.

And I'm, Im not
being a smart ar$e by asking you this question but I'm curious as to where are you getting your information about Adeslon.

He pulled out all the stops to defeat Obama

It detracts from the validity of your arguments to post something that a 5 second google search could determine

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/03/25/sheldon-adelson-spent-93-million-on-the-2012-election-heres-how/

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 10:28:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:42:02 PM
Whitey
Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel guards it. Gaza has been under Israeli siege since 2007.
There was one ceasefire that hamas was not consulted about and a second of 5 hours to get medicine and food in after israel killed 4 10 year olds.
The American political system is responsible for Israel's behaviour. Rich Jews like Adelson have bought Obama and are buying all the 2016 candidates such as Christie and Warren. Israel is untouchable, above international law. Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted. Nobody else is going to help. Israel is run by sociopaths.

Help me out then.....Gaza shares a border with Egypt....which is a Muslim country

Why don't the Egyptians lift the siege and help them out?

Egypt is now run by General Sissi, a brutal Dictator who was installed by the west in a coup against the Muslim Brotherhood who were democratically elected.

The US funds the Egyptian military to the tune of $1 billion a year. They call the shots

Tony Blair has now taken a job as an adviser with Sissi. That tells you all you need to know.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 10:34:29 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:26:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:42:02 PM
Whitey
Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel guards it. Gaza has been under Israeli siege since 2007.
There was one ceasefire that hamas was not consulted about and a second of 5 hours to get medicine and food in after israel killed 4 10 year olds.
The American political system is responsible for Israel's behaviour. Rich Jews like Adelson have bought Obama and are buying all the 2016 candidates such as Christie and Warren. Israel is untouchable, above international law. Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted. Nobody else is going to help. Israel is run by sociopaths.

And I'm, Im not
being a smart ar$e by asking you this question but I'm curious as to where are you getting your information about Adeslon.

He pulled out all the stops to defeat Obama

It detracts from the validity of your arguments to post something that a 5 second google search could determine

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/03/25/sheldon-adelson-spent-93-million-on-the-2012-election-heres-how/
Some other zionist billionaire funded obama. Maybe it was Saban. GOP and Dem pols bend over in front of jewish money and give israel a free pass in return, Did you hear de blasio at AIPAC ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:41:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 10:28:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:42:02 PM
Whitey
Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel guards it. Gaza has been under Israeli siege since 2007.
There was one ceasefire that hamas was not consulted about and a second of 5 hours to get medicine and food in after israel killed 4 10 year olds.
The American political system is responsible for Israel's behaviour. Rich Jews like Adelson have bought Obama and are buying all the 2016 candidates such as Christie and Warren. Israel is untouchable, above international law. Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted. Nobody else is going to help. Israel is run by sociopaths.

Help me out then.....Gaza shares a border with Egypt....which is a Muslim country

Why don't the Egyptians lift the siege and help them out?

Egypt is now run by General Sissi, a brutal Dictator who was installed by the west in a coup against the Muslim Brotherhood who were democratically elected.

The US funds the Egyptian military to the tune of $1 billion a year. They call the shots

Tony Blair has now taken a job as an adviser with Sissi. That tells you all you need to know.



I honestly question where you're getting your information

It's so wrong it seems like you're actually making this stuff up

You subtly imply that Obama supported the overthrow of the Muslim Brotherhood, when the opposite is in fact the case-he supported them and took a lot of heat for doing so

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/19/senator-obama-administration-secretly-suspended-military-aid-to-egypt.html

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Myles Na G. on July 19, 2014, 11:02:54 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:41:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 10:28:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:42:02 PM
Whitey
Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel guards it. Gaza has been under Israeli siege since 2007.
There was one ceasefire that hamas was not consulted about and a second of 5 hours to get medicine and food in after israel killed 4 10 year olds.
The American political system is responsible for Israel's behaviour. Rich Jews like Adelson have bought Obama and are buying all the 2016 candidates such as Christie and Warren. Israel is untouchable, above international law. Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted. Nobody else is going to help. Israel is run by sociopaths.

Help me out then.....Gaza shares a border with Egypt....which is a Muslim country

Why don't the Egyptians lift the siege and help them out?

Egypt is now run by General Sissi, a brutal Dictator who was installed by the west in a coup against the Muslim Brotherhood who were democratically elected.

The US funds the Egyptian military to the tune of $1 billion a year. They call the shots

Tony Blair has now taken a job as an adviser with Sissi. That tells you all you need to know.



I honestly question where you're getting your information

It's so wrong it seems like you're actually making this stuff up

You subtly imply that Obama supported the overthrow of the Muslim Brotherhood, when the opposite is in fact the case-he supported them and took a lot of heat for doing so

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/19/senator-obama-administration-secretly-suspended-military-aid-to-egypt.html
We live in the age of the information super highway. You can get information from everywhere and anywhere. You choose which information you want to believe. Do you take your view of the world from Republican News or the News Letter, from the Guardian or the Daily Telegraph, from the Indie or the Irish Times? The likes of GHD and Seafoid prefer to highlight only the information which supports their world view, which is that Israel is always the bad guy and the Palestinians are always the victims. Most people look on with horror at the unfolding violence in the middle east and the mounting death toll in Gaza. GHD and Seafoid also pretend to be horrified, but only because the victims are Palestinian. If Israeli kids were dying in equal numbers, they'd find reasons to justify it. GHD and Seafoid are the reason why I stay away from rallies in support of Gaza.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:08:04 PM
I had thought about going to the belfast one today but am very glad I didn't. The unfortunate thing with here is that it has been hijacked by both loyalists and republicans.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 19, 2014, 11:19:15 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:08:04 PM
I had thought about going to the belfast one today but am very glad I didn't. The unfortunate thing with here is that it has been hijacked by both loyalists and republicans.

Too lazy to get get your arse of the sofa? The rally today was organised by the trade union movement nothing to do with loyalist or Republicans,because a few of the loyalist flag protesters stayed behind to jeer those at the rally it gives you an excuse to justify being lazy. :-[ :-[ :-[
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:22:01 PM
I was in the gym actually. Is that too lazy for you?

I know it was trade unions. They weren't the pricks fighting.

Minority. Majority. Spoiled. Fill in the blanks.

What are the headlines now? Palestine rally or the trouble at it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 19, 2014, 11:28:20 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:22:01 PM
I was in the gym actually. Is that too lazy for you?

I know it was trade unions. They weren't the pricks fighting.

Minority. Majority. Spoiled. Fill in the blanks.

What are the headlines now? Palestine rally or the trouble at it.

Wise up what trouble are you talking about? A few flag protesters got their Israeli flags taken from them and that was it.Nobel prize winner Mairead Maguire spoke at it along with trade union members,friends of Palestine and others who care about the abuse of human rights but you work out in the gym incase there is someone who might offend you.Grow a pair.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:36:45 PM
The trouble that's all over the news and has taken the headlines from something positive?

Grow a pair my arse. You know nothing about me barring the fact I didn't go to one event. The city hall at 12 on a Saturday is full of vitriolic people and I prefer not to be in the company of people like those.

If you do fair enough.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 19, 2014, 11:43:50 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:36:45 PM
The trouble that's all over the news and has taken the headlines from something positive?

Grow a pair my arse. You know nothing about me barring the fact I didn't go to one event. The city hall at 12 on a Saturday is full of vitriolic people and I prefer not to be in the company of people like those.

If you do fair enough.

It was 3.00 pm and all I know about you is what you told me,that you would rather play in the gym than stand in  support  for those being murdered in Gaza incase someone Loyalist Republican or otherwise might annoy you.Again grow a pair.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
Sorry I'll go back in my box now will I?

I hope the protest achieved what it set out to and was disappointed to see the headlines on it. And I thought it was at 12.

Best of luck with your future chastising of people.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 19, 2014, 11:53:11 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
Sorry I'll go back in my box now will I?

I hope the protest achieved what it set out to and was disappointed to see the headlines on it. And I thought it was at 12.

Best of luck with your future chastising of people.
Bastard! If you had attended the bombardment of Gaza might have stopped.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:11:27 AM
Quote from: glens abu on July 19, 2014, 11:19:15 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 19, 2014, 11:08:04 PM
I had thought about going to the belfast one today but am very glad I didn't. The unfortunate thing with here is that it has been hijacked by both loyalists and republicans.

Too lazy to get get your arse of the sofa? The rally today was organised by the trade union movement nothing to do with loyalist or Republicans,because a few of the loyalist flag protesters stayed behind to jeer those at the rally it gives you an excuse to justify being lazy. :-[ :-[ :-[

Neither of them were missed.

Across the world today millions of people marched in support of the Palestinians in Gaza who are been bombarded by land sea and air by the 4 th largest military in the world. A Nuclear powered military at that. In London alone over 100,000 turned out. Thousands in Belfast, Derry, Dublin, Limerick, Lurgan where I was honored to speak, and many many other towns throughout Ireland.

If anyone here is basing their views on the situation in Palestine on what I post, then they are blinding themselves to the reality. See past me and see the situation for what it is. A GENOCIDE
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:35:34 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:41:31 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 19, 2014, 10:28:50 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 19, 2014, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:42:02 PM
Whitey
Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel guards it. Gaza has been under Israeli siege since 2007.
There was one ceasefire that hamas was not consulted about and a second of 5 hours to get medicine and food in after israel killed 4 10 year olds.
The American political system is responsible for Israel's behaviour. Rich Jews like Adelson have bought Obama and are buying all the 2016 candidates such as Christie and Warren. Israel is untouchable, above international law. Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted. Nobody else is going to help. Israel is run by sociopaths.

Help me out then.....Gaza shares a border with Egypt....which is a Muslim country

Why don't the Egyptians lift the siege and help them out?

Egypt is now run by General Sissi, a brutal Dictator who was installed by the west in a coup against the Muslim Brotherhood who were democratically elected.

The US funds the Egyptian military to the tune of $1 billion a year. They call the shots

Tony Blair has now taken a job as an adviser with Sissi. That tells you all you need to know.



I honestly question where you're getting your information

It's so wrong it seems like you're actually making this stuff up

You subtly imply that Obama supported the overthrow of the Muslim Brotherhood, when the opposite is in fact the case-he supported them and took a lot of heat for doing so

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/19/senator-obama-administration-secretly-suspended-military-aid-to-egypt.html

Well to start with, I don't get my news primarialy from the Main Stream News.

However, what I have stated was reported on the MSM.

The Muslim Brotherhood's Mohammed Mursi has been declared the winner of Egypt's presidential election run-off.

He won 51.73% of the vote, beating former PM Ahmed Shafiq, the Higher Presidential Election Commission said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18571580

Egypt's army has removed President Mohammed Morsi from power, suspended the
constitution and pledged new elections following mass protests (that lasted about a week)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23173794


I was wrong on the amount of aid they recieve. They recieve $1.3 Billion, which by the way, was released to them earlier this year. Obama pushed it through:

"The president must certify that Egypt is "sustaining the strategic relationship with the United States," and "meeting its obligations under the 1979 Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty."

Following that certification, Congress would allow Obama to give the Egyptian government $250 million in economic support. Also, Obama could give the Egyptian military $1.3 billion"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/13/congress-to-give-egypt-1-5-billion-in-aid.html

Tony Blair has agreed to advise the Egyptian president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, who came to power in a military coup last year, as part of a programme funded by the United Arab Emirates that has promised to deliver huge "business opportunities" to those involved, the Guardian has learned.

The former prime minister, now Middle East peace envoy, who supported the coup against Egypt's elected president Mohamed Morsi, is to give Sisi advice on "economic reform" in collaboration with a UAE-financed taskforce in Cairo

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/02/tony-blair-advise-egypt-president-sisi-economic-reform

If you need any further info, just shout
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:49:24 AM
This is what we are dealing with in Egypt, and who Tony Blair is now drawing a wage from.

Do not for one minute expect any help from egypt towards the Palestinians in Gaza:

Egypt: Brotherhood's Badie among mass death sentences

A judge at a mass trial in Egypt has recommended the death penalty for 683 people - including Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie.

The defendants faced charges over an attack on a police station in Minya in 2013 in which a policeman was killed.

However, the judge also commuted to life terms 492 death sentences out of 529 passed in March in a separate case.

Also on Monday, a court banned a youth group that helped ignite the uprising that toppled Hosni Mubarak in 2011.

The decision passed in Cairo to outlaw the April 6 pro-democracy movement was based on a complaint that accused the group of "tarnishing the image" of Egypt and colluding with foreign parties.

The verdict hit waiting relatives like a body blow. Several women collapsed on the ground, and had to be carried away. Others clustered together in their grief, some holding photos of their loved one. A man stood weeping in front of a line of riot police, protesting that his brother was an innocent man.

One woman told us her 15-year-old son was among the almost 700 men who received a preliminary death sentence.

Confusion added to the torment for those whose loved ones were among 529 men in a separate mass trial in which 37 life sentences were upheld, and the rest commuted to life imprisonment.

In the chaos outside the court relatives could not find out which men had been condemned to hang. One woman told us her son - who died three years ago - had been convicted in the case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27186339
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:08:19 AM
FFS you're having me on right...

After getting elected the MB then attempted to dismantle the constitution and implement Sharia Law

Is that what you wish for the people of Egypt?

Then they set their sights on Israel that would have started a regional war, which would have one outcome-

What about the 120000 civilians killed in the last 18 months in Syria in Muslim on Muslim conflict

ObMa backed the MB-that's a fact. Google it if you don't believe me

The biggesst Democratic donor in the past decade was George Soros.

George Soros is far from a friend of Israel-google it if you don't believe me


If anything what our exchange has proved is that it's not as simple as one side being wrong and the other right. There's wrongdoing on both sides and there's plots and subplots and interference by other interested parties
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:55:49 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:08:19 AM
FFS you're having me on right...

After getting elected the MB then attempted to dismantle the constitution and implement Sharia Law

Is that what you wish for the people of Egypt?

Then they set their sights on Israel that would have started a regional war, which would have one outcome-

What about the 120000 civilians killed in the last 18 months in Syria in Muslim on Muslim conflict

ObMa backed the MB-that's a fact. Google it if you don't believe me

The biggesst Democratic donor in the past decade was George Soros.

George Soros is far from a friend of Israel-google it if you don't believe me


If anything what our exchange has proved is that it's not as simple as one side being wrong and the other right. There's wrongdoing on both sides and there's plots and subplots and interference by other interested parties

And what about, and what about, and what about, and what about, and what about, and what about...............
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on July 20, 2014, 01:57:50 AM
GHD been sitting watching that live stream of Gaza. Is that actual people praying over speakers or is it recordings? Is it even prayers?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 20, 2014, 02:13:26 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:55:49 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:08:19 AM
FFS you're having me on right...

After getting elected the MB then attempted to dismantle the constitution and implement Sharia Law

Is that what you wish for the people of Egypt?

Then they set their sights on Israel that would have started a regional war, which would have one outcome-

What about the 120000 civilians killed in the last 18 months in Syria in Muslim on Muslim conflict

ObMa backed the MB-that's a fact. Google it if you don't believe me

The biggesst Democratic donor in the past decade was George Soros.

George Soros is far from a friend of Israel-google it if you don't believe me


If anything what our exchange has proved is that it's not as simple as one side being wrong and the other right. There's wrongdoing on both sides and there's plots and subplots and interference by other interested parties

And what about, and what about, and what about, and what about, and what about, and what about...............

I don't know if you're posting is meant as humour, an insult or a subtle attempt at irony.  Either way, Israel is going nowhere, and the sooner Hamas get that into their thick skulls the better it will be for everyone...especially the Palestinian people
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 02:38:57 AM
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on July 20, 2014, 01:57:50 AM
GHD been sitting watching that live stream of Gaza. Is that actual people praying over speakers or is it recordings? Is it even prayers?

Probably the call to prayer. It is tough viewing seeing the place on fire in area's and the sound of the airstrikes
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 20, 2014, 08:58:07 AM
Proud to be part of the pro-Gaza march in the city of the same name (almost) as myself today, and nice to see at least one tricolour there too.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 20, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 19, 2014, 07:38:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 19, 2014, 07:07:34 PM
Muppet

Normal channels are broken. Israel doesn't recognise either international law or the geneva conventions in gaza. The americans won't do anything because of all the jewish money that sponsors the politicians. Gaza is tired of being shafted. Israel will not tolerate a Palestinian state.
If they do nothing the siege continues.
What would you do?

If you are arguing for Hamas firing rockets, which achieves absolutely nothing strategically or militarily, but has an horrific downside, then we will have to agree to disagree. You will not persuade me that there is any merit in it.
I think it's a strategic attempt to leverage international action to lift the siege. They know Israel will respond disproportionately and kill lots of children. They have reasonable demands. Maybe you believe Israel is a rational player that observes the rules.
And that in a nut shell is my problem with one sided condemnation. If Hamas want to be martyrs let them, but they should not be choosing that for the children.
To paraphrase muppet they are inviting a rabid dog into the kindergarten.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: orangeman on July 20, 2014, 11:12:59 AM
Not condoning Hamas but desperate people do desperate things.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 11:33:50 AM
Dr mads gilbert is norwegian and in shifa hospital in gaza. She says the Israelis are using munitions that do terrible damage to bodies even if they don't cause immediate death.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:17:58 PM
This is just unreal. A Mass killing by these bastards has taken place. Horrorific
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theticklemister on July 20, 2014, 12:27:43 PM
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=895417160475109

Liverpool Wolfe Tones in solidarity with Gaza.

Club member is going to Palestine next week. Money has been raised by club to help those in Palestine
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on July 20, 2014, 12:32:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQwpP8gwiz4&feature=youtube_gdata_player&app=desktop

In Dublin's fair city yesterday
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels

war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
Family members staying together in one room to ensure nobody is left behind if the Israelis shell the building.
The level of hatred Israel has for Gaza is infathomable.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 01:08:01 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels
The 4th largest army in the world needs a war every 2 or 3 years. Israelis are educated to serve that army and run the occupation.
war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 01:13:45 PM
Israel is using flechettes against the civilian population. World's most moral army.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels

war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs

This isn't a war, its a GENOCIDE
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels

war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs

This isn't a war, its a GENOCIDE

so whats the solution?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels

war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs

This isn't a war, its a GENOCIDE

so whats the solution?

Have Israel held to account and to abide by International law. Plus, the USA, UK, and others need to stop giving them carte blanch support to do whatever they want. Israel is out of control and has been for a long time. They need stopped as they are controlled by monsters.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:59:03 PM
Letter from Gaza by a Norwegian doctor

Dearest friends,

The last night was extreme. The "ground invasion" of Gaza resulted in scores and carloads with maimed, torn apart, bleeding, shivering, dying - all sorts of injured Palestinians, all ages, all civilians, all innocent.

The heroes in the ambulances and in all of Gaza's hospitals are working 12-24 hour shifts, grey from fatigue and inhuman workloads (without payment all in Shifa for the last 4 months), they care, triage, try to understand the incomprehensible chaos of bodies, sizes, limbs, walking, not walking, breathing, not breathing, bleeding, not bleeding humans. HUMANS!

Now, once more treated like animals by "the most moral army in the world" (sic!).

My respect for the wounded is endless, in their contained determination in the midst of pain, agony and shock; my admiration for the staff and volunteers is endless, my closeness to the Palestinian "sumud" gives me strength, although in glimpses I just want to scream, hold someone tight, cry, smell the skin and hair of the warm child, covered in blood, protect ourselves in an endless embrace - but we cannot afford that, nor can they.

Ashy grey faces - Oh NO! Not one more load of tens of maimed and bleeding, we still have lakes of blood on the floor in the ER, piles of dripping, blood-soaked bandages to clear out - oh - the cleaners, everywhere, swiftly shovelling the blood and discarded tissues, hair, clothes,cannulas - the leftovers from death - all taken away ... to be prepared again, to be repeated all over. More then 100 cases came to Shifa in the last 24 hrs. Enough for a large well trained hospital with everything, but here - almost nothing: no electricity, water, disposables, drugs, OR-tables, instruments, monitors - all rusted and as if taken from museums of yesterday's hospitals. But they do not complain, these heroes. They get on with it, like warriors, head on, enormously resolute.

And as I write these words to you, alone, on a bed, my tears flow, the warm but useless tears of pain and grief, of anger and fear. This is not happening!

An then, just now, the orchestra of the Israeli war-machine starts its gruesome symphony again, just now: salvos of artillery from the navy boats just down on the shores, the roaring F16, the sickening drones (Arabic 'Zennanis', the hummers), and the cluttering Apaches. So much made in and paid by the US.

Mr. Obama - do you have a heart?

I invite you - spend one night - just one night - with us in Shifa. Disguised as a cleaner, maybe.

I am convinced, 100%, it would change history.

Nobody with a heart AND power could ever walk away from a night in Shifa without being determined to end the slaughter of the Palestinian people.

But the heartless and merciless have done their calculations and planned another "dahyia" onslaught on Gaza.

The rivers of blood will keep running the coming night. I can hear they have tuned their instruments of death.

Please. Do what you can. This, THIS cannot continue.

Mads Gilbert MD PhD

Professor and Clinical Head

Clinic of Emergency Medicine

University Hospital of North Norway

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12920-letter-from-gaza-by-a-norwegian-doctor
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 20, 2014, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels

war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs

This isn't a war, its a GENOCIDE

so whats the solution?

Have Israel held to account and to abide by International law. Plus, the USA, UK, and others need to stop giving them carte blanch support to do whatever they want. Israel is out of control and has been for a long time. They need stopped as they are controlled by monsters.

Thats not unreasonable...so the logical follow up question is .....what standards would you hold Hamas and their surrogates to?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 02:29:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels

war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs

This isn't a war, its a GENOCIDE

so whats the solution?

Have Israel held to account and to abide by International law. Plus, the USA, UK, and others need to stop giving them carte blanch support to do whatever they want. Israel is out of control and has been for a long time. They need stopped as they are controlled by monsters.

Thats not unreasonable...so the logical follow up question is .....what standards would you hold Hamas and their surrogates to?

They too need to abide by the same laws. No one is above the law.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 03:00:18 PM
What does Hamas really want?

Read the list of conditions published in the name of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and judge honestly whether there is one unjust demand among them.

After we've said everything there is to say about Hamas: that it's fundamentalist; that it's undemocratic; that it's cruel; that it does not recognize Israel; that it fires on civilians; that it's hiding ammunition in schools and hospitals; that it did not act to protect the population of Gaza – after all that has been said, and rightly so, we should stop for a moment and listen to Hamas; we may even be permitted to put ourselves in its shoes, perhaps even to appreciate the daring and resilience of this, our bitter enemy, under harsh conditions.

But Israel prefers to shut its ears to the demands of the other side, even when those demands are right and conform to Israel's own interests in the long run. Israel prefers to strike Hamas without mercy and with no purpose other than revenge. This time it is particularly clear: Israel says it does not want to topple Hamas – even Israel understands that instead it will have Somalia at its gates – but it is also unwilling to listen to Hamas' demands. Are they all "animals"? Let's say that's true. But they are there to stay, even Israel believes that's the case, so why not listen?

Last week 10 conditions were published in the name of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, for a 10-year cease-fire. We may doubt whether these were in fact the demands of those organizations, but they can serve as a fair basis for an agreement. There is not one unfounded condition among them.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad demand freedom for Gaza. Is there a more understandable and just demand? There is no way to end the current cycle of killing, and not have another round in a few months, without accepting this. No military operation, by air, ground or sea, will bring a solution; only a basic change of attitude toward Gaza can ensure what everyone wants: quiet.

Read the list of demands and judge honestly whether there is one unjust demand among them: withdrawal of Israel Defense Forces troops and allowing farmers to work their land up to the fence; release of all prisoners from the Gilad Shalit swap who have been rearrested; an end to the siege and opening of the crossings; opening of a port and airport under UN management; expansion of the fishing zone; international supervision of the Rafah crossing; an Israeli pledge to a 10-year cease-fire and closure of Gaza's air space to Israeli aircraft; permits to Gaza residents to visit Jerusalem and pray at the Al-Aqsa mosque; and an Israeli pledge not to interfere in internal Palestinian politics such as the unity government; opening Gaza's industrial zone.

These conditions are civilian; the means of achieving them are military, violent and criminal. But the (bitter) truth is that when Gaza is not firing rockets at Israel, nobody cares about it. Look at the fate of the Palestinian leader who had had enough of violence. Israel did everything it could to destroy Mahmoud Abbas. The depressing conclusion? Only force works.

The current war is a war of choice, a choice that we had. True, after Hamas started firing rockets, Israel had to respond. But as opposed to what Israeli propaganda tries to sell, the rockets didn't fall out of the sky from nowhere. Go back a few months: the breakdown of negotiations by Israel; the war on Hamas in the West Bank following the murder of the three yeshiva students, which it is doubtful Hamas planned, including the false arrest of 500 of its activists; stopping payment of salaries to Hamas workers in Gaza and Israeli opposition to the unity government, which might have brought the organization into the political sphere. Anyone who thinks all this would simply be taken in stride must be suffering from arrogance, complacence and blindness.

Terrifying amounts of blood are being spilled in Gaza – and in Israel to a lesser extent. It is being spilled in vain. Hamas is beaten down by Israel and humiliated by Egypt. The only chance for a real solution is exactly the opposite of the way Israel is going. A port in Gaza to export its excellent strawberries? To Israelis this sounds like heresy. Here once again, the preference is for (Palestinian) blood over (Palestinian) strawberries.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.606042
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 05:35:55 PM
The Ministry of Health in Gaza reports the following statistics as at 1600 hours on Sunday July 20, 2014.
Deaths: 425 – 112 children, 41 women 18-60 years, 25 persons over 60 years
Injuries: 3,008 – 904 children, 533 women 18-60 years, 119 over 60 years.
ICU: 104 patients
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 05:39:52 PM
This is another link for a live stream from Gaza:

http://www.aa.com.tr/live1/gaza-live.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 20, 2014, 07:26:49 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 02:29:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 20, 2014, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 12:51:54 PM
Watch this now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ66iHMCQls

Read these:  http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/dead-bodies-lie-shujayeh-streets-thousands-palestinians-flee-israeli-bombardments

And this:  http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714682

Live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jehadels

war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs

This isn't a war, its a GENOCIDE

so whats the solution?

Have Israel held to account and to abide by International law. Plus, the USA, UK, and others need to stop giving them carte blanch support to do whatever they want. Israel is out of control and has been for a long time. They need stopped as they are controlled by monsters.

Thats not unreasonable...so the logical follow up question is .....what standards would you hold Hamas and their surrogates to?

They too need to abide by the same laws. No one is above the law.

Who is going to enforce these laws ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 20, 2014, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
Family members staying together in one room to ensure nobody is left behind if the Israelis shell the building.
The level of hatred Israel has for Gaza is infathomable.

unreal

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 20, 2014, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
Family members staying together in one room to ensure nobody is left behind if the Israelis shell the building.
The level of hatred Israel has for Gaza is infathomable.

unreal

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing)

That is the tip of the iceberg. The comments they are coming out with on social media is beyond the pale. They are enjoying this genocide like it was a spot. Maybe that is what this is.....

I am blocking people flat out on my facebook and twitter sites. The vile replies I get to reporting on deaths is way beyond any sense of respect for humanity
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 08:27:20 PM
This is a good article about how they employ people to spread their lies

http://thehigherlearning.com/2014/07/11/israels-government-is-paying-college-students-to-spread-pro-israel-propaganda-on-social-media/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 11:25:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 20, 2014, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
Family members staying together in one room to ensure nobody is left behind if the Israelis shell the building.
The level of hatred Israel has for Gaza is infathomable.

unreal

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing)

That is the tip of the iceberg. The comments they are coming out with on social media is beyond the pale. They are enjoying this genocide like it was a spot. Maybe that is what this is.....

I am blocking people flat out on my facebook and twitter sites. The vile replies I get to reporting on deaths is way beyond any sense of respect for humanity

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/07/plos-hanan-ashrawi-deliberate-massacre-in-gaza/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Hamas use woman and children as human shields.The civilian death toll they are engineering is
part of a grotesque tactical play to garner international intervention(which will never happen) and to provoke a reaction from the murderously out of control Muslim world.
  Hamas have the blood of their own people on their hands.

  Israel has the right to defend herself.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 08:53:44 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Hamas use woman and children as human shields.The civilian death toll they are engineering is
part of a grotesque tactical play to garner international intervention(which will never happen) and to provoke a reaction from the murderously out of control Muslim world.
  Hamas have the blood of their own people on their hands.

  Israel has the right to defend herself.
Not disproportionately. Even Cameron has told them as much.
Israel is a small country that depends on international trade to support a fairly high standard of living.
It's not worth endangering that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 21, 2014, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Israel has the right to defend herself.

Only the intellectually challenged could think this is a valid argument for genocide.

Please dig deeper than Fox News for an angle.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 21, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Hamas use woman and children as human shields.The civilian death toll they are engineering is
part of a grotesque tactical play to garner international intervention(which will never happen) and to provoke a reaction from the murderously out of control Muslim world.
  Hamas have the blood of their own people on their hands.

  Israel has the right to defend herself.
Must try harder.

Next.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 09:56:43 AM
This is self defence . Get a chair out and watch the carnage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=0
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 21, 2014, 09:58:47 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 20, 2014, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
Family members staying together in one room to ensure nobody is left behind if the Israelis shell the building.
The level of hatred Israel has for Gaza is infathomable.

unreal

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing)

That is the tip of the iceberg. The comments they are coming out with on social media is beyond the pale. They are enjoying this genocide like it was a spot. Maybe that is what this is.....

I am blocking people flat out on my facebook and twitter sites. The vile replies I get to reporting on deaths is way beyond any sense of respect for humanity
Even the hasbara zombies on comment sites can't help but disguise their actual pleasure at the suffering of the people of Gaza once they get bored of constantly repeating the same stock propaganda phrases they are paid to write, over and over and over and over and over again. Internet trolling can clearly be as boring a job as any,
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 11:45:05 AM
Israel runs the occupation like a Dublin drugs gang. Anyone who dares defy the people in charge has to be destroyed.
And if it kills enough civilians they'll rise up or something and get rid of Hamas.
But don't dare say Israel kills civilians deliberately. That would be anti-Semitic.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606315

According to Palestinian sources 11 people were killed and 25 wounded in the bombing of the Siam family house in north-west Rafah, according . Among the dead are seven children and two women. Palestinians also say that number of dead in the Abu Jama'a family compound in Khan Yunis rose to 25.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 21, 2014, 12:12:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 09:56:43 AM
This is self defence . Get a chair out and watch the carnage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=0

From the same article:

Explaining that he has also previously witnessed Palestinians cheering news of bombings that killed Israelis, Mr. Sorensen said that in a war, "this is what happens." Civilians and fighters on both sides, he said, "go through a process of dehumanizing the enemy."

I would not categorize all Israelis as being like those on that hillside there were thousands protesting against the slaughter in Tel Aviv and Haifa. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183092#.U8z1FD95Fw0

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 01:43:03 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 21, 2014, 12:12:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 09:56:43 AM
This is self defence . Get a chair out and watch the carnage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=0

From the same article:

Explaining that he has also previously witnessed Palestinians cheering news of bombings that killed Israelis, Mr. Sorensen said that in a war, "this is what happens." Civilians and fighters on both sides, he said, "go through a process of dehumanizing the enemy."

I would not categorize all Israelis as being like those on that hillside there were thousands protesting against the slaughter in Tel Aviv and Haifa. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183092#.U8z1FD95Fw0

So many Israelis serve in the system that is slowly strangling Gaza. I don't know how Israel is going to survive long term given how it operates. 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/07/19/deprivation-gaza-strip/6HybezDQv6N0lGzsVWoB4N/story.html

Another way to understand the impact of the Israeli blockade is this: In 2000, UNRWA (the UN agency responsible for Palestine refugees) was feeding 80,000 people in the Gaza Strip; today it feeds over 830,000 people. Yet, UNRWA's food aid to almost half the population is now under threat as some international donors such as Canada have inexplicably defunded UNRWA or fund at levels that do not meet Gaza's burgeoning need. Without an increase in financial support to cover a $22 million shortfall, UNRWA may have to eliminate its food distributions by the end of 2014. If this happens there should be no doubt that Palestinians in Gaza will face starvation for the first time in their history, and the violence that will ensue from their deepened agony and abandonment will be calamitous.
The profound deprivation that has long defined life in Gaza is intensifying. Israel is deliberately targeting and bombing civilian infrastructure with the aim of ensuring Gaza's continued decay. Even before Israel's ground invasion, water and sewage treatment facilities in 18 different locations sustained damage, and presently, 900,000 people — half of Gaza's total population — have no access to water. Fifty percent of sewage pumping and wastewater treatment systems are no longer operational, largely affecting Northern Gaza, Gaza city and Rafah. Damaged pipelines have resulted in the mixing of sewage and water, raising the risk of water borne diseases, a serious public health hazard. Several power lines have also been disabled by bombardments, leaving 80 percent of the population with only four hours of electricity a day, and critically disrupting the delivery of basic services, especially in hospitals.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 21, 2014, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Israel has the right to defend herself.

Only the intellectually challenged could think this is a valid argument for genocide.

Please dig deeper than Fox News for an angle.

What would be your response to the Hamas shelling Muppet ? Is there an appropriate, proportionate military response..? Or do you advocate that no military response at all is the appropriate response ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 21, 2014, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Israel has the right to defend herself.

Only the intellectually challenged could think this is a valid argument for genocide.

Please dig deeper than Fox News for an angle.

What would be your response to the Hamas shelling Muppet ? Is there an appropriate, proportionate military response..? Or do you advocate that no military response at all is the appropriate response ?
International law, Sheehy. Israel is insane.
The appropriate military response to the Gaza situation is to lift the siege.
If Israel doesn't and Gazan society collapses everybody around the world is going to hate Israel, with justification.
And you'll be very, very  lonely.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 02:45:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 21, 2014, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Israel has the right to defend herself.

Only the intellectually challenged could think this is a valid argument for genocide.

Please dig deeper than Fox News for an angle.

What would be your response to the Hamas shelling Muppet ? Is there an appropriate, proportionate military response..? Or do you advocate that no military response at all is the appropriate response ?
International law, Sheehy. Israel is insane.
The appropriate military response to the Gaza situation is to lift the siege.
If Israel doesn't and Gazan society collapses everybody around the world is going to hate Israel, with justification.
And you'll be very, very  lonely.

I wasn't asking you Goebbels.

International law also applies to Hamas. The collapse of Gazan society is directly attributable to Hamas and it is a collapse fully aided and abetted  by anti-Semitic propagandists like you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 02:55:55 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 02:45:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 21, 2014, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Israel has the right to defend herself.

Only the intellectually challenged could think this is a valid argument for genocide.

Please dig deeper than Fox News for an angle.

What would be your response to the Hamas shelling Muppet ? Is there an appropriate, proportionate military response..? Or do you advocate that no military response at all is the appropriate response ?
International law, Sheehy. Israel is insane.
The appropriate military response to the Gaza situation is to lift the siege.
If Israel doesn't and Gazan society collapses everybody around the world is going to hate Israel, with justification.
And you'll be very, very  lonely.

I wasn't asking you Goebbels.

International law also applies to Hamas. The collapse of Gazan society is directly attributable to Hamas and it is a collapse fully aided and abetted  by anti-Semitic propagandists like you.
[/b]


You should be signed off by a psychiatrist to post on the board.

Just wait until Gaza collapses and people understand Zionism.
Israel runs the siege, not anyone else.
And blaming Hamas for a system run by Israeli Jews won't wash when it breaks down.
Zionism is a sick ideology. 

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 03:00:32 PM
You have called for the destruction of Israel. You have said that jews don't "belong" in Palestine because they wear sunglasses and eat burgers and you have this strange obsession with the price of drinks in S&M clubs in Tel aviv  ::)

You are an absolute nutjub and you tell me I need a psychiatrist.

Priceless
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
It's the expectation that Israel can use the sympathy derived from the Holocaust to persecute the Palestinians. And anyone who disagrees is an anti Semite.   

As if emulating the Nazis is somehow Jewish.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
It's the expectation that Israel can use the sympathy derived from the Holocaust to persecute the Palestinians. And anyone who disagrees is an anti Semite.   

As if emulating the Nazis is somehow Jewish.

No, it is the expectation that justifiable sympathy for the Palestinian should not be used to perpetuate a second holocaust. Apparently anyone who disagrees is a Zionist.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:41:38 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
It's the expectation that Israel can use the sympathy derived from the Holocaust to persecute the Palestinians. And anyone who disagrees is an anti Semite.   

As if emulating the Nazis is somehow Jewish.

No, it is the expectation that justifiable sympathy for the Palestinian should not be used to perpetuate a second holocaust. Apparently anyone who disagrees is a Zionist.
The idea that the current strategy is viable long term is a complete fantasy. 
Israel will just end up sanctioned and poor and the best people will leave.

Jews get on fine elsewhere without killing Palestinians for sport. 
And what Israel is doing to Gaza constitutes a plan for genocide.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Myles Na G. on July 21, 2014, 03:50:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 09:56:43 AM
This is self defence . Get a chair out and watch the carnage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=0
It's not a whole heap different from people on this side of the planet, with little understanding of the facts or issues,  taking sides in the dispute and getting outraged on behalf of one side or the other, like spectators at a Celtic v Rangers match.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:54:12 PM
http://electronicintifada.net/content/gaza-needs-more-condemnation/13594

"The urgent question facing us in Gaza is not just how to survive for today, but how to hold Israel accountable to international law and basic principles of human rights; how to stop the current escalation and the ongoing massacre and how to stop this from ever happening again.

Knowing that the credible Goldstone report on suspected war crimes in Gaza in 2008-09, and reports by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are all ignored or undermined, there is a bitter awareness that we in Gaza can have no expectation of Israeli accountability for the current onslaught. But this is in the short term only — in the long term, we know that Israel will have to answer to its oppression of Palestinians because this oppression will end one day. History will have it no other way.

What Palestine needs from the world today is not just a condemnation of the Gaza massacres and siege, but also a delegitimization of the ideology that produced this policy and justifies it morally and politically, just as the racist ideology of apartheid was delegitimized."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 21, 2014, 04:06:13 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
It's the expectation that Israel can use the sympathy derived from the Holocaust to persecute the Palestinians. And anyone who disagrees is an anti Semite.   

As if emulating the Nazis is somehow Jewish.
Did you see where the 2 Jews wearing Nazi t-shirts attacked an anti-war rally in Tel Aviv!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: DoireGael on July 21, 2014, 04:14:31 PM
I always believed that in the 70's UN troops should have been placed on the ground in the 6 counties. I know this was put forward (with some involvement from the late Ted Kennedy) but vetoed by the British on the security council.

I presume that the Israels have also playing the domestic policy card? Has there ever been an attempt to put UN troops on the ground there. Apologies for my ignorance.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 04:15:50 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on July 21, 2014, 03:50:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 09:56:43 AM
This is self defence . Get a chair out and watch the carnage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=0
It's not a whole heap different from people on this side of the planet, with little understanding of the facts or issues,  taking sides in the dispute and getting outraged on behalf of one side or the other, like spectators at a Celtic v Rangers match.
Sport is different. It has rules. Nobody dies.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 04:38:50 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 21, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Hamas use woman and children as human shields.The civilian death toll they are engineering is
part of a grotesque tactical play to garner international intervention(which will never happen) and to provoke a reaction from the murderously out of control Muslim world.
  Hamas have the blood of their own people on their hands.

  Israel has the right to defend herself.
Must try harder.

Next.


Its an opinion not an Arts exam in College.Because it differs from yours and many others on this board you and Muppets revert to inane asides.Can you research ISIS and their ideology and beliefs
and see how it differs from Hamas since you are in exam mode and obviously have time on your hands like many of your ilk.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 05:09:46 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 04:38:50 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 21, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Hamas use woman and children as human shields.The civilian death toll they are engineering is
part of a grotesque tactical play to garner international intervention(which will never happen) and to provoke a reaction from the murderously out of control Muslim world.
  Hamas have the blood of their own people on their hands.

  Israel has the right to defend herself.
Must try harder.

Next.


Its an opinion not an Arts exam in College.Because it differs from yours and many others on this board you and Muppets revert to inane asides.Can you research ISIS and their ideology and beliefs
and see how it differs from Hamas since you are in exam mode and obviously have time on your hands like many of your ilk.
Hamas doesn't crucify anyone, it doesn't amputate hands, it isn't a Saudi puppet.

Can you explain to us how Israel is going to run apartheid successfully for the next 20 years ?  (10 marks) 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossie11 on July 21, 2014, 05:22:29 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 04:38:50 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 21, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Hamas use woman and children as human shields.The civilian death toll they are engineering is
part of a grotesque tactical play to garner international intervention(which will never happen) and to provoke a reaction from the murderously out of control Muslim world.
  Hamas have the blood of their own people on their hands.

  Israel has the right to defend herself.
Must try harder.

Next.


Its an opinion not an Arts exam in College.Because it differs from yours and many others on this board you and Muppets revert to inane asides.Can you research ISIS and their ideology and beliefs
and see how it differs from Hamas since you are in exam mode and obviously have time on your hands like many of your ilk.

Israels tactic is "we will suppress, isolate and starve you and when you attack us with rockets we will carpet bomb you"
Its totally disproportionate.

Nobody on here is supporting Hamas/ISIS or any other terrorist group
Israel have persecuted a people in the hope that they will turn against and give up the troublemakers.
Instead it is doing the opposite and normal Palestinians are joining Hamas in their hundreds to "protect" their country/families
Its happens the world over

No right thinking person cannot but feel sorry for the normal Palestinian person who is caught up in this with no hope for the future.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on July 21, 2014, 05:43:16 PM
The Israelis and other oppressors never learn do they?
They should read up on 1916 and the effect the Executions had on the Irish people.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: EC Unique on July 21, 2014, 05:59:06 PM
Seems hospitals are now legitimate targets :-\

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28399292 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28399292)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 06:47:15 PM
A lot of the images from Gaza are being seen by Americans and especially online.
It's hard to see Israel keeping the status quo going when people know how it operates.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 07:06:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
It's the expectation that Israel can use the sympathy derived from the Holocaust to persecute the Palestinians. And anyone who disagrees is an anti Semite.   

As if emulating the Nazis is somehow Jewish.

No, it is the expectation that justifiable sympathy for the Palestinian should not be used to perpetuate a second holocaust. Apparently anyone who disagrees is a Zionist.

there isn't going to be a second Holocaust

1. International law
2 Jews are not going to walk into ovens like they did in the 40s

Franz Stangl ran Treblinka and once said of his prisoners
"They were so weak; they allowed everything to happen, to be done to them. They were people with whom there was no common ground, no possibility of communication — that is how contempt is born. I could never understand how they could just give in as they did."

3. Jewish leaders are not going to shaft their people again
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/dec/05/defense-jewish-collaborator/

Using the imaginary risk of a second holocaust to stand with Israel while it desecrates Gaza is the behavior of a troll.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 21, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 06:47:15 PM
A lot of the images from Gaza are being seen by Americans and especially online.
It's hard to see Israel keeping the status quo going when people know how it operates.

Seafoid....I think you're spot on.  The left wing of the Democratic party have no appetite for pumping Billions of Dollars into Israel when theres real humanitarian work to be done else where in the world. (Check out George Soros relationship with Israel-hes been their biggest donor over the past decade)

The Republicans (of which I am a very moderate one) are so fvckin aggravated at the way the US Jewish population constantly fund and vote Democrat are losing patience very quickly.....(especially when we see some Jewish Hollywood mogul host yet another fundraiser for Obama).  Ive spoken to several like minded folks who now are of the opinion that if thats who they want to support.....let them own it
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 07:41:20 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 07:06:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
It's the expectation that Israel can use the sympathy derived from the Holocaust to persecute the Palestinians. And anyone who disagrees is an anti Semite.   

As if emulating the Nazis is somehow Jewish.

No, it is the expectation that justifiable sympathy for the Palestinian should not be used to perpetuate a second holocaust. Apparently anyone who disagrees is a Zionist.

there isn't going to be a second Holocaust

1. International law
2 Jews are not going to walk into ovens like they did in the 40s

Franz Stangl ran Treblinka and once said of his prisoners
"They were so weak; they allowed everything to happen, to be done to them. They were people with whom there was no common ground, no possibility of communication — that is how contempt is born. I could never understand how they could just give in as they did."

3. Jewish leaders are not going to shaft their people again
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/dec/05/defense-jewish-collaborator/

Using the imaginary risk of a second holocaust to stand with Israel while it desecrates Gaza is the behavior of a troll.

So you call for the destruction of Israel and you think jews don't belong in Palestine and you expect anyone to believe your assurances ?

You are a lying anti-Semite.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 07:44:28 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28402882 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28402882)

yeah..sure, there is no anti-Semitism , it cant happen again..... ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: fearbrags on July 21, 2014, 08:02:20 PM
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/war-crime-video-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 08:35:05 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 07:41:20 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 07:06:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 03:20:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
It's the expectation that Israel can use the sympathy derived from the Holocaust to persecute the Palestinians. And anyone who disagrees is an anti Semite.   

As if emulating the Nazis is somehow Jewish.

No, it is the expectation that justifiable sympathy for the Palestinian should not be used to perpetuate a second holocaust. Apparently anyone who disagrees is a Zionist.

there isn't going to be a second Holocaust

1. International law
2 Jews are not going to walk into ovens like they did in the 40s

Franz Stangl ran Treblinka and once said of his prisoners
"They were so weak; they allowed everything to happen, to be done to them. They were people with whom there was no common ground, no possibility of communication — that is how contempt is born. I could never understand how they could just give in as they did."

3. Jewish leaders are not going to shaft their people again
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/dec/05/defense-jewish-collaborator/

Using the imaginary risk of a second holocaust to stand with Israel while it desecrates Gaza is the behavior of a troll.

So you call for the destruction of Israel and you think jews don't belong in Palestine and you expect anyone to believe your assurances ?

You are a lying anti-Semite.
They can stay in the Levant for all I care. I'm sure they'll be given the vote. Unlike Palestinians now. I just can't see Israel surviving long term.
The state will go but the people will still be there. Same as Austria Hungary.
And you are nuts, Sheehy. You know f**k all about Israel and you want to tell the rest of us how to think.

I wouldn't lecture you about Kerry football, dhera . But they are not good enough to beat the dubs.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 08:55:48 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on July 21, 2014, 08:02:20 PM
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/war-crime-video-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian
That is scary . Israel made a big deal about not targeting civilians in Gaza in 2008

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-to-un-retract-gaza-war-report-in-wake-of-goldstone-s-comments-1.353696
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called on the United Nations on Saturday to retract the Goldstone Report following the regret expressed by former jurist Richard Goldstone regarding the damning report on alleged Israeli war crimes during the Gaza war.
"Everything that we said proved to be true," said Netanyahu. "Israel did not intentionally target civilians and it has proper investigatory bodies"


Mobile phones are very dangerous for Zionism. There is so much stuff getting out now.
72000 views.
I wonder what the Israeli ambassador will say.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 21, 2014, 09:06:29 PM
hit a hospital now, big men behind a f**king tank and F-16 Jet, murder happening right in front of the world. Obana very quick to condemn trouble in the Ukraine but goes AWOL, handy when this carnage is on going, damn outright war crimes going on here. The shelling of Sarajevo seem men brought up on war crimes, what the f**k exactly happening in Palestine, its outrageous
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 09:32:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 08:35:05 PM

I wouldn't lecture you about Kerry football, dhera . But they are not good enough to beat the dubs.
You just stick to the Tel Aviv S&M clubs Seafoid and leave the geopolitics and football to those who know what they are talking about
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 21, 2014, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 21, 2014, 09:06:29 PM
hit a hospital now, big men behind a f**king tank and F-16 Jet, murder happening right in front of the world. Obana very quick to condemn trouble in the Ukraine but goes AWOL, handy when this carnage is on going, damn outright war crimes going on here. The shelling of Sarajevo seem men brought up on war crimes, what the f**k exactly happening in Palestine, its outrageous

Go on Mike, I am waiting for your defence of this.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 08:55:48 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on July 21, 2014, 08:02:20 PM
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/war-crime-video-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian
That is scary . Israel made a big deal about not targeting civilians in Gaza in 2008

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-to-un-retract-gaza-war-report-in-wake-of-goldstone-s-comments-1.353696
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called on the United Nations on Saturday to retract the Goldstone Report following the regret expressed by former jurist Richard Goldstone regarding the damning report on alleged Israeli war crimes during the Gaza war.
"Everything that we said proved to be true," said Netanyahu. "Israel did not intentionally target civilians and it has proper investigatory bodies"


Mobile phones are very dangerous for Zionism. There is so much stuff getting out now.
72000 views.
I wonder what the Israeli ambassador will say.
126000 views now
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 10:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 09:32:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 08:35:05 PM

I wouldn't lecture you about Kerry football, dhera . But they are not good enough to beat the dubs.
You just stick to the Tel Aviv S&M clubs Seafoid and leave the geopolitics and football to those who know what they are talking about
You've lost the argument.
The Jewish state is killing innocent people and the world is watching.
And Adelson can't do anything about it. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 21, 2014, 10:02:57 PM
There is no defence, its a war crime. The international community need to step up or otherwise anything goes. Obama has no business coming to this country again if he is going to hide away on this issue.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 10:05:14 PM
And how dangerous is life in Israel now with those rockets coming in ?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.606382

"First, although anxious, we use statistics to help prevent us from truly fearing for our daughter's safety. So far, more than 1,000 missiles have been fired into Israel with relatively few casualties. "The odds of actually being hit by one of these rockets is like winning the lottery," our Israeli friend says. "Except you have a better chance of winning the lottery"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 21, 2014, 10:23:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 10:05:14 PM
And how dangerous is life in Israel now with those rockets coming in ?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.606382

"First, although anxious, we use statistics to help prevent us from truly fearing for our daughter's safety. So far, more than 1,000 missiles have been fired into Israel with relatively few casualties. "The odds of actually being hit by one of these rockets is like winning the lottery," our Israeli friend says. "Except you have a better chance of winning the lottery"

That makes it ok to fire rockets at civilians does it Seafood. You really are a total f**king idiot. Its clowns like you that are what Israel uses to justify their actions. The Palestinian people do not need a fool like you cheerleading for them. One other thing, your post almost seem happy that Israel is doing what its doing, maybe because it backs up your own opinion of them?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 10:40:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 21, 2014, 10:23:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 10:05:14 PM
And how dangerous is life in Israel now with those rockets coming in ?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.606382

"First, although anxious, we use statistics to help prevent us from truly fearing for our daughter's safety. So far, more than 1,000 missiles have been fired into Israel with relatively few casualties. "The odds of actually being hit by one of these rockets is like winning the lottery," our Israeli friend says. "Except you have a better chance of winning the lottery"

That makes it ok to fire rockets at civilians does it Seafood. You really are a total f**king idiot. Its clowns like you that are what Israel uses to justify their actions. The Palestinian people do not need a fool like you cheerleading for them. One other thing, your post almost seem happy that Israel is doing what its doing, maybe because it backs up your own opinion of them?

It's a complete overreaction by Israel,  Itchy . Totally over the top.
Israel is run by thugs.

I know you don't like links but Zbigniew Brzezinski put it well

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1407/20/fzgps.01.html
" ZAKARIA: Let me switch gears with you, Zbig, and ask you about the Israeli invasion of Gaza. Prime Minister Netanyahu on CNN told Wolf Blitzer that this was a strategy to demilitarize Gaza, explaining the use of force, but it has been -- it has been quite a robust use of force and the most recent attacks apparently 60 Palestinians have died.

Do you think that it is going to succeed the Israeli stage?

BRZEZINSKI: No, I think he is making a very serious mistake. When Hamas in effect accepted the notion of participation in the Palestinian leadership, it in effect acknowledged the determination of that leadership to seek a peaceful solution from Israel -- with Israel. That was a real option. They should have persisted in that. Instead Netanyahu launched the campaign of defamation against Hamas, seized on the killing of three innocent Israeli kids to immediately charge Hamas with having done it without any evidence, and has used that to stir up public opinion in Israel in order to justify this attack on Gaza which is so lethal.

I think he is isolating Israel. He's endangering its longer-range future and I think we ought to make it very clear that this is a course of action which we thoroughly disapprove and which we do not support and which may compel us and the rest of the international community to take some steps of legitimizing Palestinian aspirations perhaps in the U.N. "

Really stupid strategic thinking by Israel. They think they are untouchable. 


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 21, 2014, 10:51:59 PM
The reaction here in the states just blows me away. The people here are so instinctively pro-Israel you'd almost think the place was the 51st state. There's a right wing propaganda video going around that says it's a simple case of Hamas wanting peace-loving Israel dead, and that's all that's to it. Even people who I thought were sensible and informed have been posting it on social media and accepting it as fact.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 21, 2014, 11:00:35 PM
No one said it wasn't an over reaction seafood but are you so totally blind that you think it is ok to laugh off the fact that extremists in Gaza are targeting civilian areas in israel. You do yourself or the plight of gazan no favour by posting shite like that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 22, 2014, 12:14:08 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 21, 2014, 10:51:59 PM
The reaction here in the states just blows me away. The people here are so instinctively pro-Israel you'd almost think the place was the 51st state. There's a right wing propaganda video going around that says it's a simple case of Hamas wanting peace-loving Israel dead, and that's all that's to it. Even people who I thought were sensible and informed have been posting it on social media and accepting it as fact.

Cromwell made it into the top 10 greatest Britons of all time, That vote was in the last 10 years.

Don't be surprised at people's love of massacres.

You will recognise more of them when they say the following when asked about the death of civilians and children:

"Israel has a right to defend itself"
"Israel has a right to exist"

No one is arguing against either of the above, but when your opinion is completely morally vacant, you need some matra to stick to. I suspect these are the type of people who carry out atrocities if they are involved themselves.

What is happening in Gaza now is far worse than what the Black & Tans did here. Imagine Irish people arguing for that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 22, 2014, 01:31:15 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 02:45:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 21, 2014, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 21, 2014, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 21, 2014, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 21, 2014, 08:29:31 AM
Israel has the right to defend herself.

Only the intellectually challenged could think this is a valid argument for genocide.

Please dig deeper than Fox News for an angle.

What would be your response to the Hamas shelling Muppet ? Is there an appropriate, proportionate military response..? Or do you advocate that no military response at all is the appropriate response ?
International law, Sheehy. Israel is insane.
The appropriate military response to the Gaza situation is to lift the siege.
If Israel doesn't and Gazan society collapses everybody around the world is going to hate Israel, with justification.
And you'll be very, very  lonely.

I wasn't asking you Goebbels.

International law also applies to Hamas. The collapse of Gazan society is directly attributable to Hamas and it is a collapse fully aided and abetted  by anti-Semitic propagandists like you.
Palestinians are semites too, mate - it's pretty obvious you're as anti-semitic as they come.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 22, 2014, 02:28:44 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 21, 2014, 10:51:59 PM
The reaction here in the states just blows me away. The people here are so instinctively pro-Israel you'd almost think the place was the 51st state. There's a right wing propaganda video going around that says it's a simple case of Hamas wanting peace-loving Israel dead, and that's all that's to it. Even people who I thought were sensible and informed have been posting it on social media and accepting it as fact.

That's because you're viewing events through an "Irish" lens rather than an "American" lens.  Here's how it works. On 9/11 America was attacked by Muslim terrorists......Hamas are also Muslim terrorists....so let's play a game of joint the dots and "associate" Hamas with Al Quada. 

As it pertains to the citizens of Gaza...well didn't they "elect " Hamas in 2006, so they, in essence elected Muslim terrorists to govern them, and was it not Muslim terrorists who attacked America on 9/11.....now you're able to associate the civilian population of Gaza with Al Quada. 

Then you flash up a video clip of Palestinians celebrating on the streets on 9/11 and there you have your smoking gun.....that the citizens of Gaza support terrorism, not just against Israel, but also against the US.

And if you happen to run into an American who has/had family members serving in Iraq/Afghanistan.....well now you're really going to hear an earful on top of everything I just told you
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 22, 2014, 04:56:35 AM
9/11 might have something to do with it, but I remember picking up a lot of pro-Israeli sentiment even before then. The pro-Israeli lobby has been very effective at building support here. The mantras of "Israel has a right to exist" and "Israel has a right to defend itself" have been repeated so often with the exact same wording that people just feel like it's the most natural thing to come out and say. They've stayed on message and it has gained traction.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: omaghjoe on July 22, 2014, 07:08:53 AM
Support of Israel among the American public is actually irrelevant, same as gun control, and labour laws.

All of these political issues things are controlled by very powerful lobby groups who are very deeply entrenched in Washington politics. They use schmoozing, bribery, blackmail and political dealing to ensure that every politician in Washington supports their cause.

The NRA of course are famous, there is numerous pro business groups. The pro-Israeli group is called "APIAC". Set up in the 50s(?) by the Isreali government.

Politicians have to get elected of course and these lobby groups help make it is easy for them by using the media to coin catchphrases to support their cause:
In the case of gun control its "Well its our right to have a gun" or "If there is gun control it will mean that none of the good guys have guns"
In the case of labour laws its "Everyone should be able to work when they want"
In the case of Israel its " Israel has a right to defend itself" or "they are our allies"

Each of these catch phrases dont actually mean anything but if you keep saying it to oppose any argument to the contrary it strikes a chord with the ordinary man...meaningless but it does strike a chord with them and helps make the issue redundant.

So the Israel question is a non starter in America because they have a right to defend themselves.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 22, 2014, 08:07:13 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 21, 2014, 10:02:57 PM
There is no defence, its a war crime. The international community need to step up or otherwise anything goes. Obama has no business coming to this country again if he is going to hide away on this issue.

I havent heard much out of that eejit Kenny either, have you?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 08:10:05 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on July 21, 2014, 08:02:20 PM
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/war-crime-video-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian
Up to 460000 views

Social media is getting a lot of media out that mainstream US media won't touch out of fear of being labeled anti semitic. 
Zionism depends on media management to keep Americans onside.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/303ecc4e-92d7-11e2-9593-00144feabdc0.html

The exercise underlined both the remarkable pull that Israel holds over American political life, and a neediness on the part of a country that expects not only to be supported financially and diplomatically, but also understood
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 22, 2014, 08:31:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 08:10:05 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on July 21, 2014, 08:02:20 PM
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/war-crime-video-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian
Up to 460000 views

Social media is getting a lot of media out that mainstream US media won't touch out of fear of being labeled anti semitic. 
Zionism depends on media management to keep Americans onside.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/303ecc4e-92d7-11e2-9593-00144feabdc0.html

The exercise underlined both the remarkable pull that Israel holds over American political life, and a neediness on the part of a country that expects not only to be supported financially and diplomatically, but also understood


That article's behind a paywall.  What's it saying?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 09:03:54 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 22, 2014, 08:31:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 08:10:05 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on July 21, 2014, 08:02:20 PM
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/war-crime-video-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian
Up to 460000 views

Social media is getting a lot of media out that mainstream US media won't touch out of fear of being labeled anti semitic. 
Zionism depends on media management to keep Americans onside.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/303ecc4e-92d7-11e2-9593-00144feabdc0.html

The exercise underlined both the remarkable pull that Israel holds over American political life, and a neediness on the part of a country that expects not only to be supported financially and diplomatically, but also understood


That article's behind a paywall.  What's it saying?
Really just the bit I highlighted. It was about Obama's visit to Israel a while back.
Israel depends on  international support. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 22, 2014, 12:22:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 22, 2014, 08:07:13 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 21, 2014, 10:02:57 PM
There is no defence, its a war crime. The international community need to step up or otherwise anything goes. Obama has no business coming to this country again if he is going to hide away on this issue.

I havent heard much out of that eejit Kenny either, have you?

I wonder what his thoughts on the matter are? That is if he has any.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 12:48:24 PM
Hamas are killing their own people,They are responsible for their dead children.They can stop this killing at any time but they prefer to sacrifice their own people and film the wailing cries of publicly
filmed funerals in a callous bid to instigate anti-Israel sentiment throughout the world.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 22, 2014, 12:54:17 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 22, 2014, 12:22:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 22, 2014, 08:07:13 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 21, 2014, 10:02:57 PM
There is no defence, its a war crime. The international community need to step up or otherwise anything goes. Obama has no business coming to this country again if he is going to hide away on this issue.

I havent heard much out of that eejit Kenny either, have you?

I wonder what his thoughts on the matter are? That is if he has any.

I think hes too busy trying to appear statesmanlike in tribute videos to Bill O'Herlihy and the like. It appears he imagines Taoiseach to be a largely ceremonial role.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 12:48:24 PM
Hamas are killing their own people,They are responsible for their dead children.They can stop this killing at any time but they prefer to sacrifice their own people and film the wailing cries of publicly
filmed funerals in a callous bid to instigate anti-Israel sentiment throughout the world.

Israel can't manage social media. That's the vector of anti-Israel sentiment throughout the world.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossie11 on July 22, 2014, 01:03:36 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 12:48:24 PM
Hamas are killing their own people,They are responsible for their dead children.They can stop this killing at any time but they prefer to sacrifice their own people and film the wailing cries of publicly
filmed funerals in a callous bid to instigate anti-Israel sentiment throughout the world.


How is this any different to what the west do against Muslims? Doesnt make it right but have some balance to the argrument
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 02:19:04 PM
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-07-21/calls-for-genocide-enter-israeli-mainstream/

Calls for genocide enter Israeli mainstream
21 July 2014
As we watch the horrifying slaughter unfold in Gaza, bear in mind the Israeli psychosis that fuels and justifies it. Here are comments from three rightwing Israelis – two leading politicians and a professor – who very much reflect a strain of mainstream thinking in Israel, one that the international media largely avoids noting.
Each, in their different ways, is advocating a genocide of the Palestinians.
Ayelet Shaked, of economics minister Naftali Bennett's Jewish Home party, calls on her Facebook page for murdering the mothers of what she terms Palestinian "terrorists" (a very broad concept indeed in current Israeli thinking) so that they cannot give birth to more "little snakes":
They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists. They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists. ...
[The terrorists] are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.
Mordechai Kedar, a lecturer on Arabic literature at Bar Ilan University, believes the sisters and mothers of Palestinian "terrorists" should be raped:
A terrorist, like those who kidnapped the boys [in the West Bank on June 12] and killed them, the only thing that will deter them, is if they know that either their sister or mother will be raped if they are caught. What can we do? This is the culture that we live in.
Note that his university did not reprimand him. They defended his comments:
The purpose was to define the culture of death of the terrorist organizations. Dr Kedar illustrated in his words the bitter reality of the Middle East and the inability of a modern and law-abiding country to fight the terror of suicide bombers.
And finally we have Moshe Feiglin, a deputy speaker of the Israeli parliament and a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, urging the Israeli army to kill Palestinians in Gaza indiscriminately and use every means possible to get them to leave:
[Netanyahu] announces that Israel is about to attack military targets in their area and urges those who are not involved and do not wish to be harmed to leave immediately. Sinai is not far from Gaza and they can leave. This will be the limit of Israel's humanitarian efforts. ... All the military and infrastructural targets will be attacked with no consideration for 'human shields' or 'environmental damage'. ...
The IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations. ... The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.
This psychosis is not going to get better on its own. In fact, it's going to get much worse. How much worse will depend entirely on the continuing inaction of western leaders.


Innocent Jews in Europe get the consequences

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/gaza-crisis-john-kerry-and-ban-ki-moon-step-up-attempts-to-broker-ceasefire-live-updates


The foreign ministers of Germany, France and Italy have condemned what they say is a rise in anti-Semitism in their countries amid protests against the conflict in Gaza. From AP:
In a joint statement the ministers said Tuesday that "anti-Semitic rhetoric and hostility against Jews, attacks on people of Jewish belief and synagogues have no place in our societies".
While the ministers say they respect freedom of speech, they say they will do everything possible to fight "acts and statements that cross the line to anti-Semitism, racism and xenophobia".

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 02:41:14 PM
Hamas fires their rockets from schools, Kindergardens and Mosques using human shields in the process These are facts.It would appear to me that they hate Israel more than they love their people.

Israel are the right side in this unfolding tragedy.

No amount of esteemed professional Palestinian protesters in this country who continually quote out of context will convince me otherwise.In fact many of the rabble that constitutes these protests should get people thinking,Hang on a minute here....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: EC Unique on July 22, 2014, 02:44:18 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 02:41:14 PM
Hamas fires their rockets from schools, Kindergardens and Mosques using human shields in the process These are facts.It would appear to me that they hate Israel more than they love their people.

Israel are the right side in this unfolding tragedy.

No amount of esteemed professional Palestinian protesters in this country who continually quote out of context will convince me otherwise.In fact many of the rabble that constitutes these protests should get people thinking,Hang on a minute here....

Could it be possible that there are wrongs on both sides?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 02:47:02 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 02:41:14 PM
Hamas fires their rockets from schools, Kindergardens and Mosques using human shields in the process These are facts.It would appear to me that they hate Israel more than they love their people.

Israel are the right side in this unfolding tragedy.

No amount of esteemed professional Palestinian protesters in this country who continually quote out of context will convince me otherwise.In fact many of the rabble that constitutes these protests should get people thinking,Hang on a minute here....
Israel is an unfolding tragedy. To go from Holocaust survivors to mechanized child killing is some feat.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on July 22, 2014, 03:08:10 PM
Regardless of who is to blame for starting this surely the cold hard stats are very damming when approx 550 Palestinian are dead and thousands wounded (a very large percentage of which are women and children) compared approx 13 soldiers on the Israeli side.  It's hardly indicative of a fair fight or an equal measure of force being applied. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 22, 2014, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on July 22, 2014, 03:08:10 PM
Regardless of who is to blame for starting this surely the cold hard stats are very damming when approx 550 Palestinian are dead and thousands wounded (a very large percentage of which are women and children) compared approx 13 soldiers on the Israeli side.  It's hardly indicative of a fair fight or an equal measure of force being applied.

We might read behind the headlines, but plenty don't, and these stats are being rightly masked.

Headline on the RTE news website earlier 'Israeli solider missing'
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 03:14:58 PM
https://www.facebook.com/naomi.wolf.author/posts/10152540481684476

"Challenged below for why I am mourning genocide in Gaza. I mourn genocide in Gaza because I am the granddaughter of a family half wiped out in a holocaust and I know genocide when I see it. People are asking why I am taking this 'side'. There are no sides. I mourn all victims. But every law of war and international law is being broken in the targeting of civilians in Gaza. I stand with the people of Gaza exactly because things might have turned out differently if more people had stood with the Jews in Germany. I stand with the people of Gaza because no one stood with us. I went to synagogue last Friday night and had to leave because I kept waiting for the massacre of Gaza to be addressed. ... Nothing. Where is god? God is only ever where we stand with our neighbor in trouble and against injustice. I turn in my card of faith as of now because of our overwhelming silence as Jews...I don't mean Israelis, a separate issue...about the genocide now in Gaza.

I want no other religion than this, that is, seeing rather than denying my neighbor under fire and embracing rather than dismissing those targeted with annihilation and ethnic cleansing."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 22, 2014, 04:41:47 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 02:41:14 PM
Hamas fires their rockets from schools, Kindergardens and Mosques using human shields in the process These are facts.It would appear to me that they hate Israel more than they love their people.

Israel are the right side in this unfolding tragedy.

No amount of esteemed professional Palestinian protesters in this country who continually quote out of context will convince me otherwise.In fact many of the rabble that constitutes these protests should get people thinking,Hang on a minute here....

Israel can stop the unfolding tragedy anytime it wants.

But it doesn't want to, quite the opposite.

Why do you cheer the killing of children?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 22, 2014, 05:05:09 PM
It would appear to me that they hate Israel more than they love their people.

Israel are the right side in this unfolding tragedy.

No amount of esteemed professional Palestinian protesters in this country who continually quote out of context will convince me otherwise.In fact many of the rabble that constitutes these protests should get people thinking,Hang on a minute here....
[/quote]

Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 02:41:14 PM
Hamas fires their rockets from schools, Kindergardens and Mosques using human shields intheprocessThese are facts.

How do you know this is a fact?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 22, 2014, 06:43:03 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 02:41:14 PM
Hamas fires their rockets from schools, Kindergardens and Mosques using human shields in the process These are facts.It would appear to me that they hate Israel more than they love their people.

Israel are the right side in this unfolding tragedy.

No amount of esteemed professional Palestinian protesters in this country who continually quote out of context will convince me otherwise.In fact many of the rabble that constitutes these protests should get people thinking,Hang on a minute here....

I'm quite familiar with the Israeli propaganda line that people like you are so quick to swallow. Bet you didn't hear about the Israelis warning Palestinians to take shelter in a hospital that they subsequently started shelling though, did you?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 22, 2014, 06:43:35 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 22, 2014, 05:05:09 PM
How do you know this is a fact?

Fox News probably told him.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 22, 2014, 07:43:35 PM
What bullshit excuse did they give for shelling the hosital, some imaginary rocket launcher spotted in the operating theatre??

years ago when the suicide bombings were going on i sympathise with Israel as this was open slaughter of women and children - civilians)
but for many years now i have seen the unjustice openly handed out to palestine , and Israeli total disregard for the killing of women and children,
they could not survive dishing out the violence and slaughter without America backing, its laughable at their outrage to the going on in the Ukraine (which we all condemn)
but the same slaughter in another part of the world by one of their buddies, there not even the same condemnation,and on war terms soldiers made a choice on war to fight and die for their country, innocent woman and children do not have a choice. they have turned into the very thing they have despised and are becoming more like the Nazis who original quest for slaughter was living space for it people and that was Hitler pretense for war
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: RealSpiritof98 on July 22, 2014, 08:01:03 PM
Rossiewanderer is peddling the line sent out by the Israeli government, in every country the they have bombarded forums like this and regurgitated the same shit we've been hearing from Israel. The sad thing is imo we cant do f**k all about it. I've beem at picket lines but in the cold light of day, jews have the west by the balls, media is a wipeout, financial institutions are dominated by them and governments wont stand up to them. Now we have Russia chastising Europe that they have been too soft on Russia while they fund genocide in the mid-east
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 08:47:45 PM
I have to laugh when my opinion that differs from anything other than Pro Palestinian provokes posters to accuse me of quoting fox news!? or being a plant sent by the Israeli state! or worse still cheering the slaughter! What a collection of cretins.


If Hamas were not still firing rockets into Israel  hundreds of children woman and civilians would be alive.That is the cold hard fact of the matter.

The tragedy that is unfolding is horrific and the military response from Israel is indeed completely over the top, and is basically indiscriminate killing which is what war is.I find it apalling, but it is provoked no less.

By the way the slaughter of war continues worldwide in DRC,CAR,Chad not to mention the Muslim militias in Sudan,Syria,Iraq and to a lesser extent Nigeria.But I guess Israel are not involved there so its not worth getting on the streets or in picket lines for.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 22, 2014, 08:51:53 PM
There only one cretin on here Rossie, and you get the A*
Before hamas ever came about Israel was attacking Palestine on a regular basis, that's how all the palestines ended upon voting them in ,in the first place.
So your bullshit argument that's it all started over firing rockets is a crock of Shiite. Israel only came about through their terrorist campain against the British in palestine.
The UN awarded the Israelis 55% of the country even though the owned 7% at the time,and then have been levelling homes an occupying Palestine held land for Israelis past 15/20yrs, so take a guess why rockets are been fired at them you clown!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 22, 2014, 09:00:23 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 08:47:45 PM
I have to laugh when my opinion that differs from anything other than Pro Palestinian provokes posters to accuse me of quoting fox news!? or being a plant sent by the Israeli state! or worse still cheering the slaughter! What a collection of cretins.


If Hamas were not still firing rockets into Israel  hundreds of children woman and civilians would be alive.That is the cold hard fact of the matter.

The tragedy that is unfolding is horrific and the military response from Israel is indeed completely over the top, and is basically indiscriminate killing which is what war is.I find it apalling, but it is provoked no less.

By the way the slaughter of war continues worldwide in DRC,CAR,Chad not to mention the Muslim militias in Sudan,Syria,Iraq and to a lesser extent Nigeria.But I guess Israel are not involved there so its not worth getting on the streets or in picket lines for.

Still never answered how you know for a fact that rockets are being fired from schools,etc;
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 22, 2014, 09:02:45 PM
Oh by the way, how did the hospital provoke anybody to get shelled and young lads playing on the beach, all are clearly visible from tanks and ships which are firing these, so that's comes down to a war crime shelling Innocent people in areas they can Clearly identify. How these people provoke the Israelis
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 22, 2014, 09:06:45 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 08:47:45 PM
I have to laugh when my opinion that differs from anything other than Pro Palestinian provokes posters to accuse me of quoting fox news!? or being a plant sent by the Israeli state! or worse still cheering the slaughter! What a collection of cretins.


If Hamas were not still firing rockets into Israel  hundreds of children woman and civilians would be alive.That is the cold hard fact of the matter.

The tragedy that is unfolding is horrific and the military response from Israel is indeed completely over the top, and is basically indiscriminate killing which is what war is.I find it apalling, but it is provoked no less.

By the way the slaughter of war continues worldwide in DRC,CAR,Chad not to mention the Muslim militias in Sudan,Syria,Iraq and to a lesser extent Nigeria.But I guess Israel are not involved there so its not worth getting on the streets or in picket lines for.

By that rationale, the British army were justified in murdering innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on July 22, 2014, 09:25:48 PM
it is absolutely heartbreaking what is happening to the people in Palestine. Its hard to get your head around genocide happening before our eyes in this day and age.
But, the hard facts are, the Jewish people run Wall St, which controls the US government. Its so sad to think that this may continue until Palestine is wiped out and there is feck all we can do. The world can be a fcuked up place
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 09:33:10 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 22, 2014, 09:06:45 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 08:47:45 PM
I have to laugh when my opinion that differs from anything other than Pro Palestinian provokes posters to accuse me of quoting fox news!? or being a plant sent by the Israeli state! or worse still cheering the slaughter! What a collection of cretins.


If Hamas were not still firing rockets into Israel  hundreds of children woman and civilians would be alive.That is the cold hard fact of the matter.

The tragedy that is unfolding is horrific and the military response from Israel is indeed completely over the top, and is basically indiscriminate killing which is what war is.I find it apalling, but it is provoked no less.

By the way the slaughter of war continues worldwide in DRC,CAR,Chad not to mention the Muslim militias in Sudan,Syria,Iraq and to a lesser extent Nigeria.But I guess Israel are not involved there so its not worth getting on the streets or in picket lines for.

By that rationale, the British army were justified in murdering innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday
Wrong. It was not the British army who killed them by that logic. It was the IRA. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 09:35:05 PM
Most foreign airlines have stopped flying to Israel over missile fears

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606534

That will do wonders for the Israeli economy.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:08:10 PM
I see we have a new leader in thickest person in Roscommon competition. Well done Rossie, but beware, you have pissed me off so much I am going to blow up your house. If your family are in it at the time tough luck. You have no one to blame but yourself.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 10:32:06 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 22, 2014, 08:51:53 PM
There only one cretin on here Rossie, and you get the A*
Before hamas ever came about Israel was attacking Palestine on a regular basis, that's how all the palestines ended upon voting them in ,in the first place.
So your bullshit argument that's it all started over firing rockets is a crock of Shiite. Israel only came about through their terrorist campain against the British in palestine.
The UN awarded the Israelis 55% of the country even though the owned 7% at the time,and then have been levelling homes an occupying Palestine held land for Israelis past 15/20yrs, so take a guess why rockets are been fired at them you clown!

Surely though if they stopped firing rockets many children woman and civilians in Gaza would still be alive??
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 22, 2014, 10:48:41 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.
It has to be a spoof.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 22, 2014, 10:54:17 PM
IT is unquestionably unreasonable,In fact it is tantamount to a war crime.But could Hamas have averted the slaughter of innocents?Unquestionably YES.
I am no supporter of Israel.

I abhor violence and civilian slaughter due to war throughout the world as Iam sure you do.
Dialogue not bloodshed,This is the only way to prevent the roundabout cycle of death.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 22, 2014, 11:14:08 PM
Did Hamas not call a 'ceasefire' in 2012 only for the Israelis to ignore??
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:22:10 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 22, 2014, 07:43:35 PM
What bullshit excuse did they give for shelling the hosital, some imaginary rocket launcher spotted in the operating theatre??
years ago when the suicide bombings were going on i sympathise with Israel as this was open slaughter of women and children - civilians)
but for many years now i have seen the unjustice openly handed out to palestine , and Israeli total disregard for the killing of women and children,
they could not survive dishing out the violence and slaughter without America backing, its laughable at their outrage to the going on in the Ukraine (which we all condemn)
but the same slaughter in another part of the world by one of their buddies, there not even the same condemnation,and on war terms soldiers made a choice on war to fight and die for their country, innocent woman and children do not have a choice. they have turned into the very thing they have despised and are becoming more like the Nazis who original quest for slaughter was living space for it people and that was Hitler pretense for war

Maybe but it makes no difference. The US media are backing the Israeli onslaught and backing the Israeli PM claim that the genocide is self inflicted. I wouldn t be surprised if a captured Hamas leader was put on trial for war crimes. Zero % that could happen an Israeli. Wont be even a rap accross the knuckles not a cross word about Netanyahu from any serious western leader. A hawk on Fox earlier described Israel as their 'only friend' in a hostile region and criticised Obama for being soft on Muslims and giving Palestinians financial aid in his first term. These creatures who form public opinion in US clearly don t lose sleep over dead kids. If the lot of Palestinians are wiped out they will have brought it on themselves is the spin.
Ban Ki Moons appearance in Tel Aviv was an embarrassment for anybody that thinks that the UN can do anything for the little man. Netanyahu was setting the agenda, was bullish and confident that nobody would dare challenge him . Moon s appeasing rhetoric offered little hope to the Palestian people - and there is no hope.

Israel has  free trade agreements with the European Union, the United States, Turkey, Mexico, Canada, Jordan, Egypt, and  with the Mercosur trade bloc. Nobody - not even the Muslim nations have even threatened even to impose economic sanctions on Israel. Israel have a free hand to deal with the problem as they see fit. The West is happy to accept their most risible justification for land grabbing - which is what Isreal essentially is - an exercise in land grabbing as blatant as any and then resorting to superior firepower to hold on to it. The US has a history of land grabbing itself and also of targeting civilians so Gaza is small beer for them.

Anyway the baddest wolf on the lot now for the West is Putin. That s the newsworthy heavyweight division. Those that matter don t care about Gaza.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 09:17:03 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Moysider

I wonder if the FAA decision on flights from the States isn't a warning from Obama to Israel to cop on .
Israel is now reported to be looking for a dignified exit from the mess it chose to start.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 09:17:41 AM
Interestingly there is no sign of MikeSheehy. He only works one on one.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 10:00:30 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-m-walt/aipac-americas-israel-policy_b_5607883.html

And why did Netanyahu decide to go on another rampage in Gaza? As Nathan Thrall of the International Crisis Group points out, the real motive is neither vengeance nor a desire to protect Israel from Hamas' rocket fire, which has been virtually non-existent over the past two years and is largely ineffectual anyway. Netanyahu's real purpose was to undermine the recent agreement between Hamas and Fatah for a unity government. Given Netanyahu's personal commitment to keeping the West Bank and creating a "greater Israel," the last thing he wants is a unified Palestinian leadership that might press him to get serious about a two-state solution. Ergo, he sought to isolate and severely damage Hamas and drive a new wedge between the two Palestinian factions.

Not content with having ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in 1948 and 1967 and not satisfied with owning eighty-two percent of Mandatory Palestine, every Israeli government since 1967 has built or expanded settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem while providing generous subsidies to the 600,000-plus Jews who have moved there in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Two weeks ago, Netanyahu confirmed what many have long suspected: he is dead set against a two-state solution and will never--repeat never--allow it to happen while he is in office. Given that Netanyahu is probably the most moderate member of his own Cabinet and that Israel's political system is marching steadily rightward, the two-state solution is a gone goose.

Meanwhile, U.S. politicians and policymakers continue to back a brutal military campaign whose primary purpose is not to defend Israel but rather to protect its longstanding effort to colonize the West Bank. Amazingly, they continue to support Israel unreservedly even though every U.S. president since Lyndon Johnson has opposed Israel's settlements project, and the past three American presidents--Clinton, Bush and Obama--have all worked hard for the two-state solution that Israeli policy has now made impossible.

Similarly, every member of the House and Senate--including progressives like Senator Elizabeth Warren--knows that voting for those supposedly "pro-Israel" resolutions is the smart political move. They understand that even the slightest display of independent thinking on these issues could leave them vulnerable to a well-funded opponent the next time they're up for re-election. At a minimum, they'll have to answer a flood of angry phone calls and letters, and, on top of that, they are likely to be blackballed by some of their Congressional colleagues. The safer course is to mouth the same tired litanies about alleged "shared values" between Israel and the U.S. and wait till the crisis dies down. And people wonder why no one respects Congress anymore.

This situation is a tragedy for all concerned, not least for Israel itself. A Greater Israel cannot be anything but an apartheid state, and exclusionary ethnic nationalism of this sort is not sustainable in the 21st century. Israel's Arab subjects will eventually demand equal rights, and as former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned back in 2007, once that happens, "the state of Israel is finished."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 10:09:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 09:17:41 AM
Interestingly there is no sign of MikeSheehy. He only works one on one.

I only work one on one with anti-semites.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Again, for the umpteenth time, what do you want them to do. Give specifics, so that a proper debate can happen.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Again, for the umpteenth time, what do you want them to do. Give specifics, so that a proper debate can happen.

Lift the embargo on Gaza and other Palestinian territories and allow Palestine to get back to some form of normality where the likes of Hamas wouldn't thrive.

The Palestinians have been backed into a corner where they had to do something, you just can't keep poking the dog and then be surprised when it tries to bite back, so you then hammer it to an inch from its life, yet blame the dog for trying to bite you!!

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on July 23, 2014, 11:26:05 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Again, for the umpteenth time, what do you want them to do. Give specifics, so that a proper debate can happen.

Sanctions, suspension of trade, expel diplomats for starters
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 11:52:44 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 10:09:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 09:17:41 AM
Interestingly there is no sign of MikeSheehy. He only works one on one.

I only work one on one with anti-semites.
Trolling is hard when nobody agrees with you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 12:22:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Again, for the umpteenth time, what do you want them to do. Give specifics, so that a proper debate can happen.

Lift the embargo on Gaza and other Palestinian territories and allow Palestine to get back to some form of normality where the likes of Hamas wouldn't thrive.

The Palestinians have been backed into a corner where they had to do something, you just can't keep poking the dog and then be surprised when it tries to bite back, so you then hammer it to an inch from its life, yet blame the dog for trying to bite you!!

Well, the question was what you want the US, France, Uk etc to do but , fair enough, we can discuss this aspect as well.

"Lift the embargo"...agree with you 100%
"allow Palestine get back to normality".......agree with you 100%
"where the likes of Hamas wouldn't thrive".....I think Hamas will "thrive" as long as Israel exists in any form...that is the problem isn't it ? They are not interested in real compromise. 

There would have to be something given in return though...something that would demonstrate that there was serious intent. Wouldn't a reasonable starting point be that Hamas remove from their charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of jews ? I think if you are going to negotiate from a position of good faith with someone then the bare minimum should be that you don't say your main goal is to kill them ?  Once that is given then concrete , real steps can be taken after that to show they were serious about peace.


QuoteThe Palestinians have been backed into a corner where they had to do something, you just can't keep poking the dog and then be surprised when it tries to bite back, so you then hammer it to an inch from its life, yet blame the dog for trying to bite you!!

Agree with you 100%. The way I characterize it is that if I was a Palestinian I'd want to kill every Israeli I see. No argument there.  However, if I was an Israeli  I would see this as a fight to the death. You may think that is paranoia but , given the history, it is justifiable paranoia.

The key issue from the Israeli perspective is security. You have to address that if you are serious about wanting peace in Israel/Palestine.
If you think the security issue is just an excuse then, fine, lets call their bluff......Is there something that can be done to take away that "excuse" ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 11:52:44 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 10:09:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 09:17:41 AM
Interestingly there is no sign of MikeSheehy. He only works one on one.

I only work one on one with anti-semites.
Trolling is hard when nobody agrees with you.

You offer nothing constructive to this debate. Your hatred of jews blinds you to any attempt at positive input.

The worst thing about you seafoid is that you view whats happening in Gaza as a point scoring exercise.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 12:31:47 PM
Will you be flying el al to tel aviv in solidarity?
Rock and troll.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 12:39:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 12:31:47 PM
Will you be flying el al to tel aviv in solidarity?
Rock and troll.

The airport closure will no doubt affect the Israeli company that you work for.

No more expense paid trips with sneaky visits to the S&M clubs.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 23, 2014, 12:45:28 PM
2 quick comments

(1) the argument about the lob sidedness of the casualty count is comets BS. Hamas has fired  over 2000 rockets into Israel. 90% of them have been neutralized by the ingenious missile defense system the Israelis developed. Without that the Israeli count would be much higher.

(2) Not sure if it's true, but an Israeli spokesman was getting grilled on MSNBC this morning. He claimed that they issued an evacuation order for a specific neighborhood, but Hamas then came out and ordered everyone to stay put in order to maximize casualties
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 23, 2014, 12:57:54 PM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:22:10 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 22, 2014, 07:43:35 PM
What bullshit excuse did they give for shelling the hosital, some imaginary rocket launcher spotted in the operating theatre??
years ago when the suicide bombings were going on i sympathise with Israel as this was open slaughter of women and children - civilians)
but for many years now i have seen the unjustice openly handed out to palestine , and Israeli total disregard for the killing of women and children,
they could not survive dishing out the violence and slaughter without America backing, its laughable at their outrage to the going on in the Ukraine (which we all condemn)
but the same slaughter in another part of the world by one of their buddies, there not even the same condemnation,and on war terms soldiers made a choice on war to fight and die for their country, innocent woman and children do not have a choice. they have turned into the very thing they have despised and are becoming more like the Nazis who original quest for slaughter was living space for it people and that was Hitler pretense for war

Maybe but it makes no difference. The US media are backing the Israeli onslaught and backing the Israeli PM claim that the genocide is self inflicted. I wouldn t be surprised if a captured Hamas leader was put on trial for war crimes. Zero % that could happen an Israeli. Wont be even a rap accross the knuckles not a cross word about Netanyahu from any serious western leader. A hawk on Fox earlier described Israel as their 'only friend' in a hostile region and criticised Obama for being soft on Muslims and giving Palestinians financial aid in his first term. These creatures who form public opinion in US clearly don t lose sleep over dead kids. If the lot of Palestinians are wiped out they will have brought it on themselves is the spin.
Ban Ki Moons appearance in Tel Aviv was an embarrassment for anybody that thinks that the UN can do anything for the little man. Netanyahu was setting the agenda, was bullish and confident that nobody would dare challenge him . Moon s appeasing rhetoric offered little hope to the Palestian people - and there is no hope.

Israel has  free trade agreements with the European Union, the United States, Turkey, Mexico, Canada, Jordan, Egypt, and  with the Mercosur trade bloc. Nobody - not even the Muslim nations have even threatened even to impose economic sanctions on Israel. Israel have a free hand to deal with the problem as they see fit. The West is happy to accept their most risible justification for land grabbing - which is what Isreal essentially is - an exercise in land grabbing as blatant as any and then resorting to superior firepower to hold on to it. The US has a history of land grabbing itself and also of targeting civilians so Gaza is small beer for them.

Anyway the baddest wolf on the lot now for the West is Putin. That s the newsworthy heavyweight division. Those that matter don t care about Gaza.
Not a chance, if the IDF get close enough they will execute them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 23, 2014, 01:00:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 09:17:03 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Moysider

I wonder if the FAA decision on flights from the States isn't a warning from Obama to Israel to cop on .
Israel is now reported to be looking for a dignified exit from the mess it chose to start.

Monday - The Hamas rockets are so dangerous we have no choice but to go into Gaza and destroy them and everything which stands in our way.
Tuesday - Those rockets wont do any harm. Keep on flying.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 12:45:28 PM
2 quick comments

(1) the argument about the lob sidedness of the casualty count is comets BS. Hamas has fired  over 2000 rockets into Israel. 90% of them have been neutralized by the ingenious missile defense system the Israelis developed. Without that the Israeli count would be much higher.

(2) Not sure if it's true, but an Israeli spokesman was getting grilled on MSNBC this morning. He claimed that they issued an evacuation order for a specific neighborhood, but Hamas then came out and ordered everyone to stay put in order to maximize casualties

Away and cop yourself on. How exactly do you think that conversation would go?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:22:19 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 12:45:28 PM
2 quick comments

(1) the argument about the lob sidedness of the casualty count is comets BS. Hamas has fired  over 2000 rockets into Israel. 90% of them have been neutralized by the ingenious missile defense system the Israelis developed. Without that the Israeli count would be much higher.

(2) Not sure if it's true, but an Israeli spokesman was getting grilled on MSNBC this morning. He claimed that they issued an evacuation order for a specific neighborhood, but Hamas then came out and ordered everyone to stay put in order to maximize casualties

Away and cop yourself on. How exactly do you think that conversation would go?

Point is Hamas are not the Legion of Marythey are violent Muslim Jihadists. They rule Gaza thru fear and intimidation and for I I can completely believe they would pull something so despicable
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: HiMucker on July 23, 2014, 01:47:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink
Don't you think your view point is a bit skewed then?  No surprise that people in Iraq and Afghanistan try to kill American soldiers.  They weren't exactly handing out sweets over there ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 01:54:05 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 12:22:51 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Again, for the umpteenth time, what do you want them to do. Give specifics, so that a proper debate can happen.

Lift the embargo on Gaza and other Palestinian territories and allow Palestine to get back to some form of normality where the likes of Hamas wouldn't thrive.

The Palestinians have been backed into a corner where they had to do something, you just can't keep poking the dog and then be surprised when it tries to bite back, so you then hammer it to an inch from its life, yet blame the dog for trying to bite you!!

Well, the question was what you want the US, France, Uk etc to do but , fair enough, we can discuss this aspect as well.

"Lift the embargo"...agree with you 100%
"allow Palestine get back to normality".......agree with you 100%
"where the likes of Hamas wouldn't thrive".....I think Hamas will "thrive" as long as Israel exists in any form...that is the problem isn't it ? They are not interested in real compromise. 

There would have to be something given in return though...something that would demonstrate that there was serious intent. Wouldn't a reasonable starting point be that Hamas remove from their charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of jews ? I think if you are going to negotiate from a position of good faith with someone then the bare minimum should be that you don't say your main goal is to kill them ?  Once that is given then concrete , real steps can be taken after that to show they were serious about peace.


QuoteThe Palestinians have been backed into a corner where they had to do something, you just can't keep poking the dog and then be surprised when it tries to bite back, so you then hammer it to an inch from its life, yet blame the dog for trying to bite you!!

Agree with you 100%. The way I characterize it is that if I was a Palestinian I'd want to kill every Israeli I see. No argument there.  However, if I was an Israeli  I would see this as a fight to the death. You may think that is paranoia but , given the history, it is justifiable paranoia.

The key issue from the Israeli perspective is security. You have to address that if you are serious about wanting peace in Israel/Palestine.
If you think the security issue is just an excuse then, fine, lets call their bluff......Is there something that can be done to take away that "excuse" ?

Well, the US, UK and France can tell the Israelis that their 'aid' and unwavering support at the UN will be greatly reduced unless they lift the embargo and retreat to the 1946 borders, that would be a good start to bring them back in line with international law.

That would be a good starting point and I'm sure if Hamas refused it as well because the wanted the nation of Israel destroyed, they wouldn't be long in power in Palestine, just my opinion.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:58:07 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 23, 2014, 01:47:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink
Don't you think your view point is a bit skewed then?  No surprise that people in Iraq and Afghanistan try to kill American soldiers.  They weren't exactly handing out sweets over there ::)

Agreed....but neither were the 9/11 hijackers

I was flat out against the Iraq war but felt we were justified in going into Afghanistan


There is no easy solution. Look at what's happening in Syria-estimated 150000 killed in Muslim on Muslim violence-crazy stuff. The Israelis look at that and feel absolutely justified in their use of force
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 23, 2014, 02:04:00 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Gotta get to work-apologies for posting a link and not continuing the dialogue

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 12:45:28 PM
2 quick comments

(1) the argument about the lob sidedness of the casualty count is comets BS. Hamas has fired  over 2000 rockets into Israel. 90% of them have been neutralized by the ingenious missile defense system the Israelis developed. Without that the Israeli count would be much higher.

(2) Not sure if it's true, but an Israeli spokesman was getting grilled on MSNBC this morning. He claimed that they issued an evacuation order for a specific neighborhood, but Hamas then came out and ordered everyone to stay put in order to maximize casualties
The FAA Advisory is basically telling Israel that they have lost control of the situation.
There is no going back to the status quo.
Israel's cheap occupation is over.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 02:09:05 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 23, 2014, 12:39:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 12:31:47 PM
Will you be flying el al to tel aviv in solidarity?
Rock and troll.

The airport closure will no doubt affect the Israeli company that you work for.

No more expense paid trips with sneaky visits to the S&M clubs.
You really are nuts.

Here

Spin this for us


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/gaza-crisis-plo-supports-hamas-conditions-for-ceasefire-live-updates

The Israeli Broadcasting Authority has refused to air adverts by Israeli human rights group B'Tselem (see video below), listing the names and ages of some of the children killed in Gaza, according to Elizabeth Tsurkov, project director at the Hotline for Refugees and Migrants Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcTbMOabFhg
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 02:12:02 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 02:04:00 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Gotta get to work-apologies for posting a link and not continuing the dialogue

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7
Let me get this straight - this guy went round bombsites, asked the people he found there if they'd like a ceasefire, and was surprised when they said yes?

That article is such a load of bo**ocks its hard to fathom how anyone published it with a straight face.

And it still doesnt answer my question, it actually accentuates how much of a lie your original quote was.

If the people don't support Hamas, then why would they stand under Israeli bombs for them?

Threat of force, right? If this was the case, you can bet your bottom dollar there'd be any amount of evidence for it, from palestinians who had fled, or relatives of someone Hamas killed for not doing their bidding, and I cant imagine that THAT evidence would not be all over the news, can you??
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on July 23, 2014, 02:18:34 PM
It's not something I've really looked into in the past but the current violence has led me to look at a lot more commentary and follow this thread quite a bit.

To be honest I can't quite get my head around it but basically it seems you are one side or the other:

1. Hamas are evil and want to kill all Jews so we must destroy them

2. Israel are evil they have taken our land and continue to kill our people

In reality the truth is probably somewhere in the middle from what I can see although I am leading towards the Gazan side given the latest Israeli offensive which is killing civilians women and Children.

My main problem with it is that they are claiming they are bombing the places where Hamas are shooting their rockets but with them being able to neutralise them quite easily it doesn't give justification for bombing Hospitals schools etc.

There needs to be talks and ultimately a number of peacekeepers sent in to control the situation for an indefinite period so that the situation can remain under control. Unfortunately there is no oil over there and the US would be loathe to send troops over there where surely a number of them would get killed. It's a horrible situation with no real solution but hopefully something can be done to stop the bloodshed!

Also I remembered your man on Matt Cooper who commentates a lot on American politics and I checked up his views on it... I haven't heard the Last Word in a while but surely Matt is getting stuck into him for his extremely blinkered view of what is going on!!

http://www.kansas.com/2014/07/23/3563646/cal-thomas-end-all-us-aid-to-the.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 23, 2014, 02:24:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 02:12:02 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 02:04:00 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Gotta get to work-apologies for posting a link and not continuing the dialogue

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7
Let me get this straight - this guy went round bombsites, asked the people he found there if they'd like a ceasefire, and was surprised when they said yes?

That article is such a load of bo**ocks its hard to fathom how anyone published it with a straight face.

And it still doesnt answer my question, it actually accentuates how much of a lie your original quote was.

If the people don't support Hamas, then why would they stand under Israeli bombs for them?

Threat of force, right? If this was the case, you can bet your bottom dollar there'd be any amount of evidence for it, from palestinians who had fled, or relatives of someone Hamas killed for not doing their bidding, and I cant imagine that THAT evidence would not be all over the news, can you??

Again this is one side of the story


http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/israel-warns-civilians-to-stay-out-of-harms-way-hamas-sends-them-back-in/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 02:24:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 02:12:02 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 02:04:00 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

How exactly does that explain how they would be able to maintain support from the very people they are ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Gotta get to work-apologies for posting a link and not continuing the dialogue

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7
Let me get this straight - this guy went round bombsites, asked the people he found there if they'd like a ceasefire, and was surprised when they said yes?

That article is such a load of bo**ocks its hard to fathom how anyone published it with a straight face.

And it still doesnt answer my question, it actually accentuates how much of a lie your original quote was.

If the people don't support Hamas, then why would they stand under Israeli bombs for them?

Threat of force, right? If this was the case, you can bet your bottom dollar there'd be any amount of evidence for it, from palestinians who had fled, or relatives of someone Hamas killed for not doing their bidding, and I cant imagine that THAT evidence would not be all over the news, can you??

Again this is one side of the story


http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/israel-warns-civilians-to-stay-out-of-harms-way-hamas-sends-them-back-in/
whitey

You are ignoring the whole context. Israel is occupying Gaza, has been running a brutal siege for the last 7 years, won't grant the Palestinians independence, kills 7 Gazans aweek on average , wants to make the strip uninhabitable in a decade and is backed up by the US so acts with impunity.

What would you do if you were in Gaza? Suck it up ?

I think if Turkey or anyone else started lobbing missiles without provocation at Israel then Israel would be entitled to complain and to cry self defence BTW. But Israel is the occupying power. 



 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

After he had a good go at it all the same.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:44:02 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

After he had a good go at it all the same.

Yip, he first held a gun in 1961, was arrested in 1962 and jailed for life in 1964.

Quite the activist.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on July 23, 2014, 03:53:07 PM
has prob been put up before, but shows graphically the land grabbing over the years

(http://blog.chron.com/thepeacepastor/files/2011/06/Israel-Palestine_maps-600x389.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 23, 2014, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

Probably the post with the most common sense in the entire thread

To make a comparison that most people will understand.....would we have peace in Ireland today if the 32CSM (and not Sinn Fein) held sway over Republican public perception?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.
Israel runs the occupation on violence. And previously made concessions under pressure- the first intifada led to Oslo and the second to the pullout of the settlers from Gaza.

What are the Palestinians supposed to do  ?
Israel won't give the Palestinians a State.

The Palestine Papers outlined Israel's position
http://www.theguardian.com/world/series/palestine-papers-documents

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Abbas-We-cant-expect-Israel-to-take-in-a-million-refugees
"Livni: My problem is that of security. Some said to me that there would be violence among my people if I evacuated them, but the pressure will be less if I give the right to choose. I cannot bear the responsibility of their life in case they are exposed to danger and then the army will have to interfere. "
And here Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni insists on annexing the settlement of Ariel – which lies some 15 miles to the east of the Israeli border, deep in the West Bank: Livni: "The idea behind our desire to annex Ariel settlement was not to get more water but because thousands of people live there. We want to have an answer for those who have lived there for forty years."


http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/27/erekat-finally-hits-mark#
"Livni is recorded confirming what Palestinians have always accused Israeli governments of doing: creating facts on the ground to prevent the possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza."
When Mr Erekat asked Ms Livni: "Short of your jet fighters in my sky and your army on my territory, can I choose where I secure external defence?". She replied: "No. In order to create your state you have to agree in advance with Israel – you have to choose not to have the right of choice afterwards. These are the basic pillars."
"Israel takes more land [so] that the Palestinian state will be impossible . . . the Israel policy is to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that is impossible, we already have the land and we cannot create the state". She conceded that it had been "the policy of the government for a really long time".
Another choice comment from Livni, this one from a Nov. 13, 2007 meeting, where she and Abu Ala (Qurei) were discussing what should be included in the "terms of reference" for the upcoming Annapolis meeting (the eighth meeting on this question):
AA: International law?
Livni : NO. I was the Minister of Justice. I am a lawyer...But I am against law — international law in particular. Law in general. If we want to make the agreement smaller, can we just drop some of these issues? Like international law, this will make the agreements easier.



Israel despite all the weaponry has the weakness of its reliance on international opinion and political support.

And the airport is now closed. Which is a pretty big deal.

It's a very long game of chess really. 
   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 04:36:56 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

Probably the post with the most common sense in the entire thread

To make a comparison that most people will understand.....would we have peace in Ireland today if the 32CSM (and not Sinn Fein) held sway over Republican public perception?

To make a better comparison, would nationalists in the north have any form of parity with their unionist neighbours if it wasn't for the IRA after the civil rights movements had been shot off the streets?

Israel IMO has made it very hard for any moderate Palestinians to gain a foothold in that area.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 23, 2014, 04:42:37 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 04:36:56 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

Probably the post with the most common sense in the entire thread

To make a comparison that most people will understand.....would we have peace in Ireland today if the 32CSM (and not Sinn Fein) held sway over Republican public perception?

To make a better comparison, would nationalists in the north have any form of parity with their unionist neighbours if it wasn't for the IRA after the civil rights movements had been shot off the streets?

Israel IMO has made it very hard for any moderate Palestinians to gain a foothold in that area.

And yet progress only happened when the ceasefires were declared. During the troubles all we saw were bodies, not strategic gains by anyone. It might feel good to fight back, and I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, but it has to lead somewhere.

Also, the Palestinians don't have lobbyists or influence in the States like we had/have. If Britain responded the way Israel does, there would have been uproar in the States.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 04:48:20 PM
The Palestinians as well as the Jewish religion are prisoners of Zionism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPVTC9frqMA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ_qCQylv-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lixYEZ9M_dU

Meanwhile thousands of Israelis are stranded overseas as a direct result of operation Protective Edge

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-gaza-conflict-2014/1.606817

The whole thing is a complete clusterfuck that makes Norn Irn look like my wee pony


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 23, 2014, 05:15:57 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 04:36:56 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

Probably the post with the most common sense in the entire thread

To make a comparison that most people will understand.....would we have peace in Ireland today if the 32CSM (and not Sinn Fein) held sway over Republican public perception?

To make a better comparison, would nationalists in the north have any form of parity with their unionist neighbours if it wasn't for the IRA after the civil rights movements had been shot off the streets?

Israel IMO has made it very hard for any moderate Palestinians to gain a foothold in that area.

Possibly and probably.  The civil rights movement in the North was part of a wider worldwide civil rights movement percolating at the time..with the Deep South and France as the Epi-center.

I think that pressure would have been brought to bear from various outside parties (Namely EU and US) that would have accelerated the process.  30 years of war certainly didn't improve the lot of many Catholics
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 23, 2014, 06:26:39 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/israel-may-be-committing-war-crimes-un-rights-envoy-says-1.1875522 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/israel-may-be-committing-war-crimes-un-rights-envoy-says-1.1875522)

QuoteHamas says it will keep fighting until its demands are met, including the release of several hundred supporters recently arrested in the West Bank and a freeing up of Gaza's borders.

Beyond brainless.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626)

QuoteIsrael's Justice Minister, Tzipi Livni, said her country was acting according to international law.

"It is regrettable civilians are killed, but when we call on them to vacate and Hamas calls on them to stay, then that is what happens," she told Israel radio.

Ms Livni also described the UN Human Rights Council as an "anti-Israel" body.


So they issue a warning, the 'militants' leave, and Israel kills the civilians left behind. Both Hamas and Israel are guilty of war crimes imho.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 06:41:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 06:26:39 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/israel-may-be-committing-war-crimes-un-rights-envoy-says-1.1875522 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/israel-may-be-committing-war-crimes-un-rights-envoy-says-1.1875522)

QuoteHamas says it will keep fighting until its demands are met, including the release of several hundred supporters recently arrested in the West Bank and a freeing up of Gaza's borders.

Beyond brainless.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626)

QuoteIsrael's Justice Minister, Tzipi Livni, said her country was acting according to international law.

"It is regrettable civilians are killed, but when we call on them to vacate and Hamas calls on them to stay, then that is what happens," she told Israel radio.

Ms Livni also described the UN Human Rights Council as an "anti-Israel" body.


So they issue a warning, the 'militants' leave, and Israel kills the civilians left behind. Both Hamas and Israel are guilty of war crimes imho.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.606714
Israel is in a bind.
More and more cabinet ministers and senior officials are becoming convinced that the pattern we were accustomed to on previous occasions, whereby Hamas and Israel deal with each other indirectly through Egypt, producing some kind of ceasefire agreement, won't work this time. A different exit strategy needs to be found, one that Hamas will find difficult to veto.
One idea making the rounds in the defense establishment, the foreign ministry and among experts in think tanks with direct links to the Prime Minister's and Defense Minister's bureaus is to recreate the exit plan from the second Lebanon War. According to this idea, Israel, in coordination with the US and other allies, as well as with Egypt, the Palestinian Authority and the Arab League, will propose a Security Council Resolution, similar to Resolution number 1701 which ended that war in 2006.
Beyond a ceasefire, that resolution was intended to advance Israel's diplomatic objectives such as the strengthening of Lebanon's government's hold on its southern district, the international isolation of Hezbollah, the demilitarization of southern Lebanon from rockets and heavy weaponry and the stationing of international observers on the border. Resolution 1701 was a continuation of the earlier Resolution 1559, which called for the disarming of Hezbollah and other armed militias in Lebanon.
The same principles could serve Israel's diplomatic goals in the days following the fighting in Gaza. A UN resolution to end the hostilities should include the following principles:
a) A declaration that the lawful government in Gaza is that of the Palestinian Authority under President Abbas. Implicitly, this will oblige Israel to work with the Palestinian unity government.
b) A redeployment of Palestinian Authority forces along Gaza's borders and at border crossings into Israel and Egypt.
c) Erection of a mechanism that will ensure demilitarization of the Gaza Strip from rockets, tunnels and heavy weapons, along with the sending of UN inspectors to different locations throughout the Strip. These inspectors will report back to the Security Council every 3-6 months. Even if not a single rocket is dismantled, this problem will be brought to the forefront of world attention.
d) A meaningful change in Israel's policies with regard to border crossings, particularly concerning the passage of people and goods between Gaza and the West Bank.
e) A lifting of the naval siege and the construction of a deep water harbor under the supervision of the Palestinian Authority and a strong international force.
f) The rehabilitation of Gaza's economy and infrastructure under international supervision that will prevent the diversion of building materials to the construction of bunkers and tunnels by terrorist organizations.
Resolution 1701 which ended the second Lebanon war wasn't perfect
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 23, 2014, 07:21:20 PM
But Israel denies Palestine's right to exist, defend itself and any other dogma you can think of, that only works one way.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 07:21:20 PM
But Israel denies Palestine's right to exist, defend itself and any other dogma you can think of, that only works one way.
Israel is defending itself
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/this-video-gives-a-terrifying-glimpse-into-life-in-gaza-this-week--gk80oPgC-x

Behind the sadism, there is something really needy about Israel, as if they know it could all be lost suddenly, if the world loses patience with them.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 23, 2014, 10:07:43 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk9C_5CICiU&feature=youtu.be

George Galloway view on things
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 10:41:08 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 22, 2014, 11:14:08 PM
Did Hamas not call a 'ceasefire' in 2012 only for the Israelis to ignore??

Good article for you on ceasefire violations

http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on July 23, 2014, 10:41:56 PM
Watched the iTV news there at 10 and they had a report from a hospital in Gaza. There was a 3 year old girl with severe burns amongst other injuries whose family had been wiped out and another child who couldn't have been much more than one with similar injuries. Both in casts and wrapped in bandages and with severe facial burns. If only they were isolated incidents (one is still one too many) but unfortunately they are not. Can someone explain to me how killing and injuring so many children can be justified under any circumstances? 

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-07-23/the-toddler-3-who-will-have-to-bear-the-scars-of-the-middle-east-conflict/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 10:54:53 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 23, 2014, 01:00:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 23, 2014, 09:17:03 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 22, 2014, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 22, 2014, 10:43:04 PM
Rossiewanderer, your argument us so incredibly stupid I'm wondering are you a troll. Let me reverse this. Do you think it is reasonable for IDF to retaliate to aggression from Hamas by targeting civilian areas for shelling (illegal in international law), target hospitals and schools with the net result that 80% of victims are civilian. Is that reasonable? You should be ashamed of yourself.

It doesn t matter what Rossiewander thinks Itchy. And it doesn t matter what I think either.

But the US media and the US president don t seem to see anything unreasonable there. Neither do the British, Irish, French, German, Italian. And they do count. Israel are obviously being given carte blanche to deal with this as they see fit. I suspect they would wipe out gaza with nukes if they could without contaminating themselves. If they did use nukes at least they would know they would remain immune from criticism from the west.

Now that flights into Israel have been cancelled, expect a step up in intensity of the Gaza gig to get the job done and get the show back on the road.

Moysider

I wonder if the FAA decision on flights from the States isn't a warning from Obama to Israel to cop on .
Israel is now reported to be looking for a dignified exit from the mess it chose to start.

Monday - The Hamas rockets are so dangerous we have no choice but to go into Gaza and destroy them and everything which stands in our way.
Tuesday - Those rockets wont do any harm. Keep on flying.

There is no fear of rockets for the hundreds who gather on the hills every day and night to cheer on the slaughter
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 10:57:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 23, 2014, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 23, 2014, 01:27:57 PM
While maintaining support from these same people they're apparently ordering to stand under Israeli bombs?

Good man

Lol-you have no idea who you're dealing with here

My wife's 2 nephews served in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. They salty with these terrorists first hand. You have no idea as to the depths these monsters will sink

I know. Those 2 monsters and their President had no reason to invade and occupy Iraq or Afghanistan, and sure look at what they got up to. 1 million + dead, and their oil stolen. Lovely lads those 2 nephews
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dferg on July 23, 2014, 11:46:09 PM
http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/who-voted-and-who-didn-t-for-un-investigation-of-potential-war-crimes-in-gaza-20140723
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 11:52:33 PM
What we have seen unfold before our eyes, and continue to see, is genocide, funded and supported by the USA and the EU.

How they can sit back and continue to give Israel their full support is inhumane in the extreme. Jon snow summed it up well on Monday when he said that if this was going on anywhere else in the world, there would be outrage.

The tentacles of Zionism have spread far and wide and it now controls so many politicians and Governments. They are now powerless to act or condemn Israel for what they are at.

I just saw the news and 695 have now been killed, 4,500 injured, 120,000 people now refugees for a 2nd time on their land, and there is no knowning how many homes have been destroyed.

The media, fed by Israel, tell us how many rockets are launched by the various resistance groups in Gaza, but never tell us how many airstrikes and bombs are fired from land sea and air. The other night they were dropping bombs every 5 seconds. They boasted yesterday about dropping 120 one tonne bombs on one town. They killed a child an hour for the past 24 hours.

Fatah and the PA are toothless and the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank want rid of them. Also, the vast majority of Palestinians are fully behind the resistance groups in Gaza fighting the 4th largest army in the world. Hamas have never been stronger, and they are putting up some fight along with the others. 29 of the 31 Israelis killed so far have been occupation soldiers, and they have also captured one and he been held somewhere deep underground no doubt. Israel have killed over 80% civilians, and they are the ones with the best equipment the US taxpayer can give them.

When Israel killed the 4 boys on the beach in front of the worlds media, they sent a message to show that they can kill who they want, when they want, where they want, and get away with it all. 24 hours later they cranked things up and we are where we are now. And still no leader has stood up and condemned them as the bodies pile up. shameless.

Hamas have set out their demands for a ceasefire. Lift the siege, allow travel to the west bank, and release the prisoners that were recently arrested. Every Palestinian is behind those demands, and there is nothing unreasonable about them. Hamas held to the ceasefire since 2012, and it was Israel who broke it hundreds of times. They also killed 70 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in the past year. And what do people talk about? Rockets, rockets, rockets, and more rockets. Those who slabber on all the time about rockets never back up their claims with any evidence. They just keep on repeating Israeli hasbara.

Israel started this agression. They used the kidnapping of the 3 settlers to ramp up all the hatred and thirst for blood and war. They knew the boys were killed the night they were captured, yet they put a media ban on that fact and spent the next 19 days telling the world that Hamas did it, and they were looking to bring them back alive. They went on a murderous rampage through the West Bank arresting hundreds and raids thousands of homes. They have still to provide one shred of evidence as to who killed the boys. In fact, they are not even mentioned.

Israel picked this fight, and to their surprise, they are getting their fill of it on the ground in Gaza. They are not so brave now when they are on the ground one on one. The Palestinians have said that they either die a fast death now, or surrender and die a slow death. 7 years of a brutal siege, 3 full blown attacks on them that has left over 2,300 dead, 10,000+ injured, and their infastructure destroyed. Plus, they have been abandoned by the western world.

Hamas might not be some peoples cup of tea on here, but to the Palestinians, they are all they have and they are fully behind them. For me, right now they and the various resistance groups have my full support as they fight against the most evil and brutal regime in the world right now.

Israel may have the might, but the Palestinians have right on their side. The occupier never give you your rights, they have to be fought for. Right now that is what the Palestinians are fighting for, and I fully support that fight.

Viva Palestina
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 11:54:59 PM
Quote from: dferg on July 23, 2014, 11:46:09 PM
http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/who-voted-and-who-didn-t-for-un-investigation-of-potential-war-crimes-in-gaza-20140723

Ireland stood tall with the Palestinians all right. Pathetic decision to abstain. Then again they do what they are told
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 24, 2014, 01:17:55 AM
The Great Shame:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtPexoSIQAEWrHS.jpg:large)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 24, 2014, 03:26:25 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 24, 2014, 01:17:55 AM
The Great Shame:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtPexoSIQAEWrHS.jpg:large)

Not trying to be a d!ck but why would I care what the Marxist dictators of a bunch of 3 rd world countries think
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 24, 2014, 03:57:17 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 11:52:33 PM
What we have seen unfold before our eyes, and continue to see, is genocide, funded and supported by the USA and the EU.

How they can sit back and continue to give Israel their full support is inhumane in the extreme. Jon snow summed it up well on Monday when he said that if this was going on anywhere else in the world, there would be outrage.

The tentacles of Zionism have spread far and wide and it now controls so many politicians and Governments. They are now powerless to act or condemn Israel for what they are at.

I just saw the news and 695 have now been killed, 4,500 injured, 120,000 people now refugees for a 2nd time on their land, and there is no knowning how many homes have been destroyed.

The media, fed by Israel, tell us how many rockets are launched by the various resistance groups in Gaza, but never tell us how many airstrikes and bombs are fired from land sea and air. The other night they were dropping bombs every 5 seconds. They boasted yesterday about dropping 120 one tonne bombs on one town. They killed a child an hour for the past 24 hours.

Fatah and the PA are toothless and the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank want rid of them. Also, the vast majority of Palestinians are fully behind the resistance groups in Gaza fighting the 4th largest army in the world. Hamas have never been stronger, and they are putting up some fight along with the others. 29 of the 31 Israelis killed so far have been occupation soldiers, and they have also captured one and he been held somewhere deep underground no doubt. Israel have killed over 80% civilians, and they are the ones with the best equipment the US taxpayer can give them.

When Israel killed the 4 boys on the beach in front of the worlds media, they sent a message to show that they can kill who they want, when they want, where they want, and get away with it all. 24 hours later they cranked things up and we are where we are now. And still no leader has stood up and condemned them as the bodies pile up. shameless.

Hamas have set out their demands for a ceasefire. Lift the siege, allow travel to the west bank, and release the prisoners that were recently arrested. Every Palestinian is behind those demands, and there is nothing unreasonable about them. Hamas held to the ceasefire since 2012, and it was Israel who broke it hundreds of times. They also killed 70 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in the past year. And what do people talk about? Rockets, rockets, rockets, and more rockets. Those who slabber on all the time about rockets never back up their claims with any evidence. They just keep on repeating Israeli hasbara.

Israel started this agression. They used the kidnapping of the 3 settlers to ramp up all the hatred and thirst for blood and war. They knew the boys were killed the night they were captured, yet they put a media ban on that fact and spent the next 19 days telling the world that Hamas did it, and they were looking to bring them back alive. They went on a murderous rampage through the West Bank arresting hundreds and raids thousands of homes. They have still to provide one shred of evidence as to who killed the boys. In fact, they are not even mentioned.

Israel picked this fight, and to their surprise, they are getting their fill of it on the ground in Gaza. They are not so brave now when they are on the ground one on one. The Palestinians have said that they either die a fast death now, or surrender and die a slow death. 7 years of a brutal siege, 3 full blown attacks on them that has left over 2,300 dead, 10,000+ injured, and their infastructure destroyed. Plus, they have been abandoned by the western world.

Hamas might not be some peoples cup of tea on here, but to the Palestinians, they are all they have and they are fully behind them. For me, right now they and the various resistance groups have my full support as they fight against the most evil and brutal regime in the world right now.

Israel may have the might, but the Palestinians have right on their side. The occupier never give you your rights, they have to be fought for. Right now that is what the Palestinians are fighting for, and I fully support that fight.

Viva Palestina

GHD......what's your opinion of Sharia Law. That's one of Hamas major initiatives....would you like your wife and daughters to live under such a regime
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 24, 2014, 08:40:28 AM
Political dysfunction and vested interests really drive the situation, as in the Eurozone

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/the-eurovenn/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=1
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 24, 2014, 08:47:20 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:44:02 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 23, 2014, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
Lads, Palestine has to understand that Hamas is a problem for any reasonable observer.

Look at the pros and cons of the rockets:

Pros:

None that I can see
(I note a few comments here along the lines of 'sure they have to do something' -  but this is completely absurd if it is the only argument. Leadership should be better thought out.)

Cons:

It triggers the slaughter of their own people;
It gives Israel's brutal responses gravitas with Americans which is the only public opinion that really counts;
It can distance the Palestinian cause from people otherwise likely to be on their side;
It easily allows them to be called terrorists/Islamic militants etc - a stunt which works well on the extremely dim;
It complies beautifully with the propaganda of convenient and always flexible 'The War on Terror';

Ask yourselves this question:

Would you fire a rocket knowing that it would achieve nothing and in return everyone in your house and the neighbouring houses were likely to be killed?

Israel's leadership is the problem here and always will be. In a fair world these attacks would be stopped and Netanyahu and co would be up for War Crimes.

But sometimes life is a bitch and you get w*nkers for neighbours.

The Palestinians need smarter leadership and not adolescent reactionaries. To my mind, South Africa's road to getting rid of Apartheid began when Nelson Mandela rejected violence.

After he had a good go at it all the same.

Yip, he first held a gun in 1961, was arrested in 1962 and jailed for life in 1964.

Quite the activist.

Just like Gerry then, eh!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 24, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 03:57:17 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 11:52:33 PM
What we have seen unfold before our eyes, and continue to see, is genocide, funded and supported by the USA and the EU.

How they can sit back and continue to give Israel their full support is inhumane in the extreme. Jon snow summed it up well on Monday when he said that if this was going on anywhere else in the world, there would be outrage.

The tentacles of Zionism have spread far and wide and it now controls so many politicians and Governments. They are now powerless to act or condemn Israel for what they are at.

I just saw the news and 695 have now been killed, 4,500 injured, 120,000 people now refugees for a 2nd time on their land, and there is no knowning how many homes have been destroyed.

The media, fed by Israel, tell us how many rockets are launched by the various resistance groups in Gaza, but never tell us how many airstrikes and bombs are fired from land sea and air. The other night they were dropping bombs every 5 seconds. They boasted yesterday about dropping 120 one tonne bombs on one town. They killed a child an hour for the past 24 hours.

Fatah and the PA are toothless and the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank want rid of them. Also, the vast majority of Palestinians are fully behind the resistance groups in Gaza fighting the 4th largest army in the world. Hamas have never been stronger, and they are putting up some fight along with the others. 29 of the 31 Israelis killed so far have been occupation soldiers, and they have also captured one and he been held somewhere deep underground no doubt. Israel have killed over 80% civilians, and they are the ones with the best equipment the US taxpayer can give them.

When Israel killed the 4 boys on the beach in front of the worlds media, they sent a message to show that they can kill who they want, when they want, where they want, and get away with it all. 24 hours later they cranked things up and we are where we are now. And still no leader has stood up and condemned them as the bodies pile up. shameless.

Hamas have set out their demands for a ceasefire. Lift the siege, allow travel to the west bank, and release the prisoners that were recently arrested. Every Palestinian is behind those demands, and there is nothing unreasonable about them. Hamas held to the ceasefire since 2012, and it was Israel who broke it hundreds of times. They also killed 70 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in the past year. And what do people talk about? Rockets, rockets, rockets, and more rockets. Those who slabber on all the time about rockets never back up their claims with any evidence. They just keep on repeating Israeli hasbara.

Israel started this agression. They used the kidnapping of the 3 settlers to ramp up all the hatred and thirst for blood and war. They knew the boys were killed the night they were captured, yet they put a media ban on that fact and spent the next 19 days telling the world that Hamas did it, and they were looking to bring them back alive. They went on a murderous rampage through the West Bank arresting hundreds and raids thousands of homes. They have still to provide one shred of evidence as to who killed the boys. In fact, they are not even mentioned.

Israel picked this fight, and to their surprise, they are getting their fill of it on the ground in Gaza. They are not so brave now when they are on the ground one on one. The Palestinians have said that they either die a fast death now, or surrender and die a slow death. 7 years of a brutal siege, 3 full blown attacks on them that has left over 2,300 dead, 10,000+ injured, and their infastructure destroyed. Plus, they have been abandoned by the western world.

Hamas might not be some peoples cup of tea on here, but to the Palestinians, they are all they have and they are fully behind them. For me, right now they and the various resistance groups have my full support as they fight against the most evil and brutal regime in the world right now.

Israel may have the might, but the Palestinians have right on their side. The occupier never give you your rights, they have to be fought for. Right now that is what the Palestinians are fighting for, and I fully support that fight.

Viva Palestina

GHD......what's your opinion of Sharia Law. That's one of Hamas major initiatives....would you like your wife and daughters to live under such a regime
I would say that to most Palestinians that is a question for further down the line.  the more immediate question is would you like your wife and daughters to live.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 24, 2014, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 24, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 03:57:17 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 11:52:33 PM
What we have seen unfold before our eyes, and continue to see, is genocide, funded and supported by the USA and the EU.

How they can sit back and continue to give Israel their full support is inhumane in the extreme. Jon snow summed it up well on Monday when he said that if this was going on anywhere else in the world, there would be outrage.

The tentacles of Zionism have spread far and wide and it now controls so many politicians and Governments. They are now powerless to act or condemn Israel for what they are at.

I just saw the news and 695 have now been killed, 4,500 injured, 120,000 people now refugees for a 2nd time on their land, and there is no knowning how many homes have been destroyed.

The media, fed by Israel, tell us how many rockets are launched by the various resistance groups in Gaza, but never tell us how many airstrikes and bombs are fired from land sea and air. The other night they were dropping bombs every 5 seconds. They boasted yesterday about dropping 120 one tonne bombs on one town. They killed a child an hour for the past 24 hours.

Fatah and the PA are toothless and the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank want rid of them. Also, the vast majority of Palestinians are fully behind the resistance groups in Gaza fighting the 4th largest army in the world. Hamas have never been stronger, and they are putting up some fight along with the others. 29 of the 31 Israelis killed so far have been occupation soldiers, and they have also captured one and he been held somewhere deep underground no doubt. Israel have killed over 80% civilians, and they are the ones with the best equipment the US taxpayer can give them.

When Israel killed the 4 boys on the beach in front of the worlds media, they sent a message to show that they can kill who they want, when they want, where they want, and get away with it all. 24 hours later they cranked things up and we are where we are now. And still no leader has stood up and condemned them as the bodies pile up. shameless.

Hamas have set out their demands for a ceasefire. Lift the siege, allow travel to the west bank, and release the prisoners that were recently arrested. Every Palestinian is behind those demands, and there is nothing unreasonable about them. Hamas held to the ceasefire since 2012, and it was Israel who broke it hundreds of times. They also killed 70 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in the past year. And what do people talk about? Rockets, rockets, rockets, and more rockets. Those who slabber on all the time about rockets never back up their claims with any evidence. They just keep on repeating Israeli hasbara.

Israel started this agression. They used the kidnapping of the 3 settlers to ramp up all the hatred and thirst for blood and war. They knew the boys were killed the night they were captured, yet they put a media ban on that fact and spent the next 19 days telling the world that Hamas did it, and they were looking to bring them back alive. They went on a murderous rampage through the West Bank arresting hundreds and raids thousands of homes. They have still to provide one shred of evidence as to who killed the boys. In fact, they are not even mentioned.

Israel picked this fight, and to their surprise, they are getting their fill of it on the ground in Gaza. They are not so brave now when they are on the ground one on one. The Palestinians have said that they either die a fast death now, or surrender and die a slow death. 7 years of a brutal siege, 3 full blown attacks on them that has left over 2,300 dead, 10,000+ injured, and their infastructure destroyed. Plus, they have been abandoned by the western world.

Hamas might not be some peoples cup of tea on here, but to the Palestinians, they are all they have and they are fully behind them. For me, right now they and the various resistance groups have my full support as they fight against the most evil and brutal regime in the world right now.

Israel may have the might, but the Palestinians have right on their side. The occupier never give you your rights, they have to be fought for. Right now that is what the Palestinians are fighting for, and I fully support that fight.

Viva Palestina

GHD......what's your opinion of Sharia Law. That's one of Hamas major initiatives....would you like your wife and daughters to live under such a regime
I would say that to most Palestinians that is a question for further down the line.  the more immediate question is would you like your wife and daughters to live.

Its absolutely relevant to the current discussion.  Hamas is an enemy with no borders, boundaries or morals. The savagery of Islamic Jihad is clear for all to see and needs to be dealt with with a swift and brutal response. The fact that Hamas draw this unto themselves and their civilian population seems to be lost on a lot of the posters on this blog

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 24, 2014, 01:13:01 PM
So the Israeli Army are attacking Gaza to sort out these Islamic Jihadi's as they don't like Sharia law, are you for real?

This is all to do with yet more land grabs and to drive the native population out of 'their' country as it was written in a bible or other lord knows when..
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 24, 2014, 01:17:05 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 24, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 03:57:17 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 11:52:33 PM
What we have seen unfold before our eyes, and continue to see, is genocide, funded and supported by the USA and the EU.

How they can sit back and continue to give Israel their full support is inhumane in the extreme. Jon snow summed it up well on Monday when he said that if this was going on anywhere else in the world, there would be outrage.

The tentacles of Zionism have spread far and wide and it now controls so many politicians and Governments. They are now powerless to act or condemn Israel for what they are at.

I just saw the news and 695 have now been killed, 4,500 injured, 120,000 people now refugees for a 2nd time on their land, and there is no knowning how many homes have been destroyed.

The media, fed by Israel, tell us how many rockets are launched by the various resistance groups in Gaza, but never tell us how many airstrikes and bombs are fired from land sea and air. The other night they were dropping bombs every 5 seconds. They boasted yesterday about dropping 120 one tonne bombs on one town. They killed a child an hour for the past 24 hours.

Fatah and the PA are toothless and the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank want rid of them. Also, the vast majority of Palestinians are fully behind the resistance groups in Gaza fighting the 4th largest army in the world. Hamas have never been stronger, and they are putting up some fight along with the others. 29 of the 31 Israelis killed so far have been occupation soldiers, and they have also captured one and he been held somewhere deep underground no doubt. Israel have killed over 80% civilians, and they are the ones with the best equipment the US taxpayer can give them.

When Israel killed the 4 boys on the beach in front of the worlds media, they sent a message to show that they can kill who they want, when they want, where they want, and get away with it all. 24 hours later they cranked things up and we are where we are now. And still no leader has stood up and condemned them as the bodies pile up. shameless.

Hamas have set out their demands for a ceasefire. Lift the siege, allow travel to the west bank, and release the prisoners that were recently arrested. Every Palestinian is behind those demands, and there is nothing unreasonable about them. Hamas held to the ceasefire since 2012, and it was Israel who broke it hundreds of times. They also killed 70 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in the past year. And what do people talk about? Rockets, rockets, rockets, and more rockets. Those who slabber on all the time about rockets never back up their claims with any evidence. They just keep on repeating Israeli hasbara.

Israel started this agression. They used the kidnapping of the 3 settlers to ramp up all the hatred and thirst for blood and war. They knew the boys were killed the night they were captured, yet they put a media ban on that fact and spent the next 19 days telling the world that Hamas did it, and they were looking to bring them back alive. They went on a murderous rampage through the West Bank arresting hundreds and raids thousands of homes. They have still to provide one shred of evidence as to who killed the boys. In fact, they are not even mentioned.

Israel picked this fight, and to their surprise, they are getting their fill of it on the ground in Gaza. They are not so brave now when they are on the ground one on one. The Palestinians have said that they either die a fast death now, or surrender and die a slow death. 7 years of a brutal siege, 3 full blown attacks on them that has left over 2,300 dead, 10,000+ injured, and their infastructure destroyed. Plus, they have been abandoned by the western world.

Hamas might not be some peoples cup of tea on here, but to the Palestinians, they are all they have and they are fully behind them. For me, right now they and the various resistance groups have my full support as they fight against the most evil and brutal regime in the world right now.

Israel may have the might, but the Palestinians have right on their side. The occupier never give you your rights, they have to be fought for. Right now that is what the Palestinians are fighting for, and I fully support that fight.

Viva Palestina

GHD......what's your opinion of Sharia Law. That's one of Hamas major initiatives....would you like your wife and daughters to live under such a regime
I would say that to most Palestinians that is a question for further down the line.  the more immediate question is would you like your wife and daughters to live.

Its absolutely relevant to the current discussion.  Hamas is an enemy with no borders, boundaries or morals. The savagery of Islamic Jihad is clear for all to see and needs to be dealt with with a swift and brutal response. The fact that Hamas draw this unto themselves and their civilian population seems to be lost on a lot of the posters on this blog
whitey

That attitude lost the Yanks Iraq and is in large part responsible for the massive number of veteran suicides. The yanks never understood Iraqi grievances and the cost of the ignorance was north of $3 trillion.
Now the costs to American society were limited since most soldiers come from poorer families but Israel runs a citizen army and in order to develop such a cruel attitude you have to have the support of the people , basically all of them
And that fucks up Israeli society long term. 

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.606848#
"The Telegraph, a British newspaper, published a death chart, in which it included the names of children, the dates of their death and their ages. It included babies in diapers, children, and youths. Each child and the name given to them by their parents. Four-year-old Bitul, three-year-old Suhila, six-month-old Bissan, four-year-old Siraj, two-year-old Nur – these were toddlers from among the 25 members of the Abu Jama'e family, killed alongside 127 others.
The chart doesn't lie: "Protective Edge" is "Cast Lead 2," and it will overcome its predecessor in the amount of horrors. The chart wasn't printed in Israel, nor will it be. There's no place for it. We're at war. Hamas is guilty of their deaths. Israel Air Force pilots did not mean to kill them.
But don't fear: if the chart were to be published, it would be received with unfeeling, or even, it's hard to believe, outright joy, by the brainwashed public in this country. "Even Hitler was a child," reads graffiti currently sprayed near the entrance to Netivot.
The website "Walla!" published talkback comments on an article about the four children killed on the Gaza beach. Shani Moyal: "I couldn't care less that Arab children were killed, too bad it wasn't more. Well done to the IDF." Stav Sabah: "Really, these are great pictures. They make me so happy, I want to look at them again and again." Sharon Avishi: "Only four? Too bad. We hoped for more." Daniela Turgeman: "Great. We need to kill all the children." Chaya Hatnovich: "There isn't a more beautiful picture than those of dead Arab children." Orna Peretz: "Why only four?" Rachel Cohen: "I'm not for children dying in Gaza. I'm for everyone burning." Tami Mashan: "As many children as possible should die." "

Israel will never be a normal country. That is the price of the occupation.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 24, 2014, 01:34:43 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 24, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 03:57:17 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 11:52:33 PM
What we have seen unfold before our eyes, and continue to see, is genocide, funded and supported by the USA and the EU.

How they can sit back and continue to give Israel their full support is inhumane in the extreme. Jon snow summed it up well on Monday when he said that if this was going on anywhere else in the world, there would be outrage.

The tentacles of Zionism have spread far and wide and it now controls so many politicians and Governments. They are now powerless to act or condemn Israel for what they are at.

I just saw the news and 695 have now been killed, 4,500 injured, 120,000 people now refugees for a 2nd time on their land, and there is no knowning how many homes have been destroyed.

The media, fed by Israel, tell us how many rockets are launched by the various resistance groups in Gaza, but never tell us how many airstrikes and bombs are fired from land sea and air. The other night they were dropping bombs every 5 seconds. They boasted yesterday about dropping 120 one tonne bombs on one town. They killed a child an hour for the past 24 hours.

Fatah and the PA are toothless and the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank want rid of them. Also, the vast majority of Palestinians are fully behind the resistance groups in Gaza fighting the 4th largest army in the world. Hamas have never been stronger, and they are putting up some fight along with the others. 29 of the 31 Israelis killed so far have been occupation soldiers, and they have also captured one and he been held somewhere deep underground no doubt. Israel have killed over 80% civilians, and they are the ones with the best equipment the US taxpayer can give them.

When Israel killed the 4 boys on the beach in front of the worlds media, they sent a message to show that they can kill who they want, when they want, where they want, and get away with it all. 24 hours later they cranked things up and we are where we are now. And still no leader has stood up and condemned them as the bodies pile up. shameless.

Hamas have set out their demands for a ceasefire. Lift the siege, allow travel to the west bank, and release the prisoners that were recently arrested. Every Palestinian is behind those demands, and there is nothing unreasonable about them. Hamas held to the ceasefire since 2012, and it was Israel who broke it hundreds of times. They also killed 70 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in the past year. And what do people talk about? Rockets, rockets, rockets, and more rockets. Those who slabber on all the time about rockets never back up their claims with any evidence. They just keep on repeating Israeli hasbara.

Israel started this agression. They used the kidnapping of the 3 settlers to ramp up all the hatred and thirst for blood and war. They knew the boys were killed the night they were captured, yet they put a media ban on that fact and spent the next 19 days telling the world that Hamas did it, and they were looking to bring them back alive. They went on a murderous rampage through the West Bank arresting hundreds and raids thousands of homes. They have still to provide one shred of evidence as to who killed the boys. In fact, they are not even mentioned.

Israel picked this fight, and to their surprise, they are getting their fill of it on the ground in Gaza. They are not so brave now when they are on the ground one on one. The Palestinians have said that they either die a fast death now, or surrender and die a slow death. 7 years of a brutal siege, 3 full blown attacks on them that has left over 2,300 dead, 10,000+ injured, and their infastructure destroyed. Plus, they have been abandoned by the western world.

Hamas might not be some peoples cup of tea on here, but to the Palestinians, they are all they have and they are fully behind them. For me, right now they and the various resistance groups have my full support as they fight against the most evil and brutal regime in the world right now.

Israel may have the might, but the Palestinians have right on their side. The occupier never give you your rights, they have to be fought for. Right now that is what the Palestinians are fighting for, and I fully support that fight.

Viva Palestina

GHD......what's your opinion of Sharia Law. That's one of Hamas major initiatives....would you like your wife and daughters to live under such a regime
I would say that to most Palestinians that is a question for further down the line.  the more immediate question is would you like your wife and daughters to live.

What do you think?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 24, 2014, 01:42:24 PM
"Hug a Terrorist"

Watch these young girls as they hold a "Hug a terrorist" sign to raise awareness about what's happening in Palestine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD79V9qAPSw
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 24, 2014, 01:57:57 PM
The b**tards have just hit a UN school where hundreds of families were gathered seeking shelter. Reports of up to 20 people killed and scores injured

Live stream from the school 

http://mubasher.aljazeera.net/livestream/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dferg on July 24, 2014, 02:01:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 24, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 03:57:17 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 23, 2014, 11:52:33 PM
What we have seen unfold before our eyes, and continue to see, is genocide, funded and supported by the USA and the EU.

How they can sit back and continue to give Israel their full support is inhumane in the extreme. Jon snow summed it up well on Monday when he said that if this was going on anywhere else in the world, there would be outrage.

The tentacles of Zionism have spread far and wide and it now controls so many politicians and Governments. They are now powerless to act or condemn Israel for what they are at.

I just saw the news and 695 have now been killed, 4,500 injured, 120,000 people now refugees for a 2nd time on their land, and there is no knowning how many homes have been destroyed.

The media, fed by Israel, tell us how many rockets are launched by the various resistance groups in Gaza, but never tell us how many airstrikes and bombs are fired from land sea and air. The other night they were dropping bombs every 5 seconds. They boasted yesterday about dropping 120 one tonne bombs on one town. They killed a child an hour for the past 24 hours.

Fatah and the PA are toothless and the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank want rid of them. Also, the vast majority of Palestinians are fully behind the resistance groups in Gaza fighting the 4th largest army in the world. Hamas have never been stronger, and they are putting up some fight along with the others. 29 of the 31 Israelis killed so far have been occupation soldiers, and they have also captured one and he been held somewhere deep underground no doubt. Israel have killed over 80% civilians, and they are the ones with the best equipment the US taxpayer can give them.

When Israel killed the 4 boys on the beach in front of the worlds media, they sent a message to show that they can kill who they want, when they want, where they want, and get away with it all. 24 hours later they cranked things up and we are where we are now. And still no leader has stood up and condemned them as the bodies pile up. shameless.

Hamas have set out their demands for a ceasefire. Lift the siege, allow travel to the west bank, and release the prisoners that were recently arrested. Every Palestinian is behind those demands, and there is nothing unreasonable about them. Hamas held to the ceasefire since 2012, and it was Israel who broke it hundreds of times. They also killed 70 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in the past year. And what do people talk about? Rockets, rockets, rockets, and more rockets. Those who slabber on all the time about rockets never back up their claims with any evidence. They just keep on repeating Israeli hasbara.

Israel started this agression. They used the kidnapping of the 3 settlers to ramp up all the hatred and thirst for blood and war. They knew the boys were killed the night they were captured, yet they put a media ban on that fact and spent the next 19 days telling the world that Hamas did it, and they were looking to bring them back alive. They went on a murderous rampage through the West Bank arresting hundreds and raids thousands of homes. They have still to provide one shred of evidence as to who killed the boys. In fact, they are not even mentioned.

Israel picked this fight, and to their surprise, they are getting their fill of it on the ground in Gaza. They are not so brave now when they are on the ground one on one. The Palestinians have said that they either die a fast death now, or surrender and die a slow death. 7 years of a brutal siege, 3 full blown attacks on them that has left over 2,300 dead, 10,000+ injured, and their infastructure destroyed. Plus, they have been abandoned by the western world.

Hamas might not be some peoples cup of tea on here, but to the Palestinians, they are all they have and they are fully behind them. For me, right now they and the various resistance groups have my full support as they fight against the most evil and brutal regime in the world right now.

Israel may have the might, but the Palestinians have right on their side. The occupier never give you your rights, they have to be fought for. Right now that is what the Palestinians are fighting for, and I fully support that fight.

Viva Palestina

GHD......what's your opinion of Sharia Law. That's one of Hamas major initiatives....would you like your wife and daughters to live under such a regime
I would say that to most Palestinians that is a question for further down the line.  the more immediate question is would you like your wife and daughters to live.

Its absolutely relevant to the current discussion.  Hamas is an enemy with no borders, boundaries or morals. The savagery of Islamic Jihad is clear for all to see and needs to be dealt with with a swift and brutal response. The fact that Hamas draw this unto themselves and their civilian population seems to be lost on a lot of the posters on this blog
The fact that blowing up hospitals, schools, unarmed people walking around looking for dead relatives, children playing football on a deserted beach will not lead to peace but to more anger seems to be lost on you.

The same anger we are seeing now in Iraq and Afganistan.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 24, 2014, 02:08:45 PM
Witnesses and survivors from UNRWA school contend that the Red Cross asked them to gather in the school yard, then Israel targeted the yard!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 24, 2014, 02:15:42 PM
Israeli forces have shelled a UN school in Beit Hanoun, killing dozens of civilians who had taken shelter there with Israel's coordination, a Ma'an reporter in Gaza said.

The shelling of the school, which is affiliated with the UN's Palestine refugee agency UNRWA, is the fourth time in two days that Israeli forces have bombed schools serving as shelters for the displaced in the besieged Gaza Strip.

Earlier in the day, UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness said on Twitter that three teachers for the UN agency had been killed, marking the first deaths among UNRWA workers.

"The 1st UNRWA fatalities in #Gaza; 3 teachers. 2 women, 1 man killed along with family members by incoming fire. 2 women while in residences," Gunness tweeted.

"Losing a colleague is hard to bear. Losing a colleague in these circumstances is unbearable."

The attacks brought Thursday's total number of deaths to more than 80, as dozens of Palestinians have been killed as Israel continued its bombardment from land, air, and sea.

More than 750 Palestinians have been killed since Israel launched its attack on the Gaza Strip 17 days ago, the majority since the ground began last week.

Gaza-based rights groups have said that the vast majority of those killed are civilians, including nearly 200 children.

Earlier on Thursday, four bodies were pulled from the rubble of buildings in Khuzaa, where dozens were killed in heavy Israeli shelling over night.

The bodies were later identified as Rasmi Abu Reida, Muhammad Abu Yousif , Ahmad Qudeih and Rami Qudeih.

Israeli airstrikes also killed seven Palestinians in western Kkhan Younis. Gaza Ministry of Health spokesman Al-Qidra said that an airstrike killed Ahmad Abdul-Karim, Ahmad Hasan and Muhammad Ismail Khader there.

He added that Ahmad al-Mashhadi and Ahmad Khadir were killed in another raid on Khan Younis.

Earlier, he announced that bodies of Anas Akram Skafi, 18, and his twin brother Saad were removed from rubble in Shujaiyya, the site of the killing of nearly 70 Palestinians in one day over the weekend.

Emergency teams on Thursday also managed to remove the body of a dead woman, identified as Alal Khalil Abu Ayda, and three injured people from the rubble of a home belonging to the al-Bardini family which Israeli missiles demolished earlier in the city of al-Zahraa in the central Gaza Strip.

Al-Qidra said earlier that five Palestinian men were killed by two separate Israeli airstrikes on a motorcycle and a tuk-tuk (auto-rickshaw) in Abasan al-Kabira east of Khan Younis.

Medical sources identified four of the victims as Nabil Shihdah Qudeih, Nadir Suleiman Qudeih, Bakir Fathi Qudeih, and Ismail Hasan Abu Rjeila.

Two children were injured in Gaza City after an Israeli airstrike hit home of al-Ghusein family.

Earlier, a man was injured as a result of an Israeli airstrike on home of Saadi Daloul in Salah al-Din Street in the central Gaza Strip.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=715952&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Agent Orange on July 24, 2014, 02:16:41 PM
There is only one solution to the Israeli problem.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 24, 2014, 02:24:38 PM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/israel-palestinians-given-ample-time-to-evacuate-t,36527/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 24, 2014, 02:29:18 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/24/gaza-crisis-palestinian-death-toll-passes-700-live-updates

Israel's finance minister Naftali Bennett has given an unapologetic interview to Sky News, accusing Hamas of using their own civilians as human shields, adding that "you fight back - there is now proportionality when you fight terror."
Asked about growing support for Hamas in the face of increasing bloodshed in Gaza, he called supporters of Hamas "immoral", adding:
We want to live side by side, it's them who are running after us. We handed them the land and they turned it into a fortress of terror.


Here is a previous interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMG7Fze6sgQ
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 24, 2014, 03:01:25 PM
BBC's Jeremy Bowen's Gaza notebook: I saw no evidence of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i-saw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 24, 2014, 03:08:48 PM
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n15/mouin-rabbani/israel-mows-the-lawn
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 24, 2014, 04:02:11 PM
Two leading intellectuals make separate and eloquent cases that the people of Gaza have the right to resist by any means – including by firing rockets – Israel's efforts to slowly extinguish their right to self-determination, and possibly to life itself. They argue that the Palestinians have this right most certainly at a moral level, but also almost certainly at the level of international law

http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-07-24/a-legal-and-moral-case-for-hamas-rocket-fire/#sthash.FWBQkPbc.dpuf
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan.  I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on July 24, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan.  I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion

its not as black and white as that surely? zero wrong doing from the majority of the Palestine's killed ie woman and children
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 24, 2014, 05:07:37 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on July 24, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan.  I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion

its not as black and white as that surely? zero wrong doing from the majority of the Palestine's killed ie woman and children

To clarify- "both sides" means HAMAS and ISRAEL
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 24, 2014, 06:58:38 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan.  I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion
Israel is losing the argument in US media now after shelling the shelter. Netanyahu set off a war he can't stop. The Israeli army tried to blame the latest massacre on Hamas but twitterers didn't buy it. Zionism is reprehensible.
And in big trouble on social media. Mj rosenberg's twitter feed is really interesting today.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 24, 2014, 08:06:01 PM
https://twitter.com/MJayRosenberg


MJ (Mike) Rosenberg @MJayRosenberg     ·   44m   

In DC and suburbs every synagogue posts this in front: "We Stand With Israel In Its Struggle For Peace & Security." SHAMEFUL LIE.


MJ (Mike) Rosenberg @MJayRosenberg     ·   47m   

Berkeley rabbi: I'm cool with all those dead kids and I won't apologize for it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html ...

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: RealSpiritof98 on July 24, 2014, 08:26:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan. I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion

Would love to hear your experience Whitey, some very interesting conspiracy theories RE Boston Bomb backed up with some shocking CCTV evidence. I take them all with a pinch of Salt, however there's something now right about the two brothers, sneaky feeling they were set up in some way.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 24, 2014, 09:02:53 PM
Unbelievable stuff, the Israeli govt and those who support them disgrace the name of days decent Jewish people all over the world
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 24, 2014, 11:26:16 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 24, 2014, 09:02:53 PM
Unbelievable stuff, the Israeli govt and those who support them disgrace the name of days decent Jewish people all over the world
+1
There are many Jews and Israeli Jews (unfortunately not enough) who are disgusted with the Israeli governments actions and aims.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 24, 2014, 11:50:41 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 24, 2014, 11:26:16 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 24, 2014, 09:02:53 PM
Unbelievable stuff, the Israeli govt and those who support them disgrace the name of days decent Jewish people all over the world
+1
There are many Jews and Israeli Jews (unfortunately not enough) who are disgusted with the Israeli governments actions and aims.

Just watching Senator Ted Cruz from Texas there on CNN.

On about the 'unshakable bond' between Israel and the US. Very critical of Obama for maybe getting flights into Israel banned and certainly being 'hostile' towards Israel during his administration.

There s no discussion about schools being bombed or kids being killed. The American media also seem to be looking to use this as an excuse to give Obama a kicking.

It seems to me that Israel can act with impunity because they know they have huge backing. And it is moral backing as well. The West sees these civilian deaths as being just unfortunate but sees the campaign as being perfectly justifiable.

On the ground now it looks like Hamas will/should go for broke. There s no future anyway for Gaza except more of the same. People blame Hamas but after this latest Israeli squeeze a more extreme version of Hamas will emerge - maybe under another name.  Will the West stand by and watch Israel raze the Palestinians from the face of the earth? I think the US would anyway from what I ve seen area. AFAIC the US has as much blood on their hands as the Israelis here.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 25, 2014, 01:09:26 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan.  I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion

GHD will not acknowledge your different perspective never mind acknowledge your families situation.
I'll bet he won't even respond to you at all.

If I was you I wouldn't waste my time with this Nazi sympathiser.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 25, 2014, 01:17:12 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 24, 2014, 08:06:01 PM
https://twitter.com/MJayRosenberg


MJ (Mike) Rosenberg @MJayRosenberg     ·   44m   

In DC and suburbs every synagogue posts this in front: "We Stand With Israel In Its Struggle For Peace & Security." SHAMEFUL LIE.


MJ (Mike) Rosenberg @MJayRosenberg     ·   47m   

Berkeley rabbi: I'm cool with all those dead kids and I won't apologize for it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html ...

One sure sign of a bigot is someone who monitors (to the minute) the words of other bigots. They use it to bolster their own bigotry.

Step outside the echo chamber for a while Seafoid. There is more to life than hating jews.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: east down gael on July 25, 2014, 01:32:22 AM
Mike,I know you and GHD have a long running debate/dispute on this topic,but can you not put it to one side at present and accept that what the Israelis are inflicting upon the gazan people at present is beyond contempt? As a military tactic bombing hundreds and thousands of innocent people to death is about as morally wrong as I can imagine.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 01:59:19 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 25, 2014, 01:17:12 AM


One sure sign of a bigot is someone who monitors (to the minute) the words of other bigots. They use it to bolster their own bigotry.

Step outside the echo chamber for a while Seafoid. There is more to life than hating jews.
That's a rather thinly veiled admission that you're a bigot, mate. I'd be in agreement with your self-assessment on the matter.

I'd also class you as an anti-semite, but then again I'd be using the term under its true meaning, rather than the bigoted, racist, exclusionary manner in which you and other users of the term use it.

Anti-semite.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:16:29 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 24, 2014, 11:50:41 PM
Will the West stand by and watch Israel raze the Palestinians from the face of the earth? I think the US would anyway from what I ve seen area. AFAIC the US has as much blood on their hands as the Israelis here.
Of course it would. It's what the West wants.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 25, 2014, 02:30:50 AM
Quote from: east down gael on July 25, 2014, 01:32:22 AM
Mike,I know you and GHD have a long running debate/dispute on this topic,but can you not put it to one side at present and accept that what the Israelis are inflicting upon the gazan people at present is beyond contempt? As a military tactic bombing hundreds and thousands of innocent people to death is about as morally wrong as I can imagine.

east Down Gael, What Israel is doing is beyond contempt, beyond the pale. There will, hopefully, be war criminal proceedings in the wake of this bombing of Gaza.

I have said long before this escalation that Israel is guilty of war crimes. Israel , as it exists today, should not exist. The fact that Israel exists is one of the greatest crimes against humanity in the 20th century because it has led to the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from lands that they should , rightfully, claim as a majority.

BUT, the jews have a right to live in Palestine as well, even as a minority. The problem is that I don't think Hamas, seafoid or GHD will allow this. This is why  I think the two state solution is the only way forward. It is the only way that the Israelies can ensure their continued existence........and this is the crux of the matter. If you assume, as I do,  that the two state solution is the way forward then you must deal with how to ensure the security of BOTH sides in such an arrangement.

So, If you want to understand my deep, deep antipathy to GHD and Seafoid it is because I see them as the source of the original sin. It is their bigotry that has led to all this, yet, they are the loudest voices shouting against the state they forced into existence.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 25, 2014, 02:33:38 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 01:59:19 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 25, 2014, 01:17:12 AM


One sure sign of a bigot is someone who monitors (to the minute) the words of other bigots. They use it to bolster their own bigotry.

Step outside the echo chamber for a while Seafoid. There is more to life than hating jews.
That's a rather thinly veiled admission that you're a bigot, mate. I'd be in agreement with your self-assessment on the matter.

I'd also class you as an anti-semite, but then again I'd be using the term under its true meaning, rather than the bigoted, racist, exclusionary manner in which you and other users of the term use it.

Anti-semite.

You just run along and concern yourself with who Suarez is biting these days or some such shite..

Let the adults debate the real issues....dipshit
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:58:43 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 25, 2014, 02:33:38 AM


You just run along and concern yourself with who Suarez is biting these days or some such shite..

Let the adults debate the real issues....dipshit
I see you haven't engaged with my point there, but then that isn't much of a surprise.

Debate wouldn't be something I would have had you down as being strong on, and you're merely providing some extra confirmation bias for me with your last post.

If you'd like to actually debate on the conflict, as opposed to calling somebody a "dipshit", I'd be happy to do so, but I don't think would work out well for you, based on the rather limited understanding (and that's being generous) of anything to do with the conflict you've shown so far.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 25, 2014, 03:27:58 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on July 24, 2014, 08:26:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan. I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion

Would love to hear your experience Whitey, some very interesting conspiracy theories RE Boston Bomb backed up with some shocking CCTV evidence. I take them all with a pinch of Salt, however there's something now right about the two brothers, sneaky feeling they were set up in some way.

I don't buy into the conspiracy that the bombing was "staged" as some people would have you believe. What does raise my antenna is the incident in Florida a few weeks later when the FBI agents and MA state trooper were questioning an acquaintance of the bombers about an I solved double murder in Boston. Whatever went down, they ended up shooting the guy dead in the struggle that ensued. How 3 cops couldn't subdue one unarmed guy is highly suspect. (The older brother was also a suspect in that double murder).

Most of the terror convictions since 9/11 have been sting operations where undercover law enformement engage "sympathisers" and then set them up with dummy explosives or some such weapon. Would I be shocked if I found out that they had engaged the older brother and were monitoring him-absolutely not.

I also find it amazing that the Russian intelligence tipped the FBI off about him having attended a training camp but that no one followed up

That entire family are/were a bunch of fvckin scumbags. They came under false pretenses and were given asylum. Then they had everything handed to them at taxpayers expense, while they were busy shoplifting, drug dealing and passing counterfeit currency. The older brother then somehow gotarried to a girl from a wealthy family, had her convert to Islam, then sent her out to work 80 hours a week while he sat on his arse at home
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 08:32:59 AM
Jon Snow is in Gaza

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/gazas-birthplace-saints-deathyard-angels/24276

Israel has proved one bitter truth. There is no such thing as a forensic or even a surgical attack. In this densely packed slither of land, fenced off from the rest of the world, it has proved impossible to 'kill a militant', without taking out a child, twenty children, or a grandmother, aunt, cousin, cousin's cousin.

Gazan society is a construct of huge families interwoven across the territory. It is hard to pin-p***k one man – kill him, and leave. You can obliterate his house, and he most probably he wont be there, but his seventeen relatives will be, and at the end of the attack they will be beyond life.

Finally, I have been stranded in Gaza City these three days. It was too dangerous to move far. Yet some of the worst of the carnage has been south of here, where no journalist has yet ventured.

But blessed Youtube, combined with short bursts of phone and electricity supply have enabled locals' pictures to reach the outside world and we journalists to verify and then weave them into our reports.

The world is witnessing what is happening in Gaza. There is bound to be judgement
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 25, 2014, 08:49:43 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 25, 2014, 03:27:58 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on July 24, 2014, 08:26:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan. I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion

Would love to hear your experience Whitey, some very interesting conspiracy theories RE Boston Bomb backed up with some shocking CCTV evidence. I take them all with a pinch of Salt, however there's something now right about the two brothers, sneaky feeling they were set up in some way.

I don't buy into the conspiracy that the bombing was "staged" as some people would have you believe. What does raise my antenna is the incident in Florida a few weeks later when the FBI agents and MA state trooper were questioning an acquaintance of the bombers about an I solved double murder in Boston. Whatever went down, they ended up shooting the guy dead in the struggle that ensued. How 3 cops couldn't subdue one unarmed guy is highly suspect. (The older brother was also a suspect in that double murder).

Most of the terror convictions since 9/11 have been sting operations where undercover law enformement engage "sympathisers" and then set them up with dummy explosives or some such weapon. Would I be shocked if I found out that they had engaged the older brother and were monitoring him-absolutely not.

I also find it amazing that the Russian intelligence tipped the FBI off about him having attended a training camp but that no one followed up

That entire family are/were a bunch of fvckin scumbags. They came under false pretenses and were given asylum. Then they had everything handed to them at taxpayers expense, while they were busy shoplifting, drug dealing and passing counterfeit currency. The older brother then somehow gotarried to a girl from a wealthy family, had her convert to Islam, then sent her out to work 80 hours a week while he sat on his arse at home

Whitey,
    how many of these jihadi's involved in the 9/11 attacks, Boston or whatever were Palestinian, Afghani or even Iraqi?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 09:13:15 AM
There's a new gallup poll in the States. Only 25% of those aged 18-29 support what Israel is doing. Overall 42% say justified, 39% unjustified.
Israel is losing middle America.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/174110/americans-reaction-middle-east-situation-similar-past.aspx

The problem for israel is social media. They are being wiped out online with the images of their ruthlessness.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 25, 2014, 10:22:51 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 25, 2014, 08:49:43 AM
Quote from: whitey on July 25, 2014, 03:27:58 AM
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on July 24, 2014, 08:26:53 PM
Quote from: whitey on July 24, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
GHD....I appreciate that we have been able to conduct a civil dialogue and challenge each others views in an adult manner.

This whole tragedy is spinning out of control and unfortunately the civilians are caught in the middle

The advent of social media is bringing the horror of what is unfolding into everyones lives in a way that would have been unimaginable a decade ago

All our opinions are formed by our own life experiences.....yours have obviously been quite different to mine. (I have close family members who serve in the US Military...my nephew is currently deployed in Afghanistan. I was also at the Boston Marathon last year, and experienced first hand what happens when an ideology morphs and gets warped to become the antithesis of what is at its core.)

Lets hope that the horror that has been unfolding will be the tipping point that leads to some sort of a permanent solution.  There is wrongdoing on BOTH sides and both sides will HAVE to make accommodations to bring this to a conclusion

Would love to hear your experience Whitey, some very interesting conspiracy theories RE Boston Bomb backed up with some shocking CCTV evidence. I take them all with a pinch of Salt, however there's something now right about the two brothers, sneaky feeling they were set up in some way.

I don't buy into the conspiracy that the bombing was "staged" as some people would have you believe. What does raise my antenna is the incident in Florida a few weeks later when the FBI agents and MA state trooper were questioning an acquaintance of the bombers about an I solved double murder in Boston. Whatever went down, they ended up shooting the guy dead in the struggle that ensued. How 3 cops couldn't subdue one unarmed guy is highly suspect. (The older brother was also a suspect in that double murder).

Most of the terror convictions since 9/11 have been sting operations where undercover law enformement engage "sympathisers" and then set them up with dummy explosives or some such weapon. Would I be shocked if I found out that they had engaged the older brother and were monitoring him-absolutely not.

I also find it amazing that the Russian intelligence tipped the FBI off about him having attended a training camp but that no one followed up

That entire family are/were a bunch of fvckin scumbags. They came under false pretenses and were given asylum. Then they had everything handed to them at taxpayers expense, while they were busy shoplifting, drug dealing and passing counterfeit currency. The older brother then somehow gotarried to a girl from a wealthy family, had her convert to Islam, then sent her out to work 80 hours a week while he sat on his arse at home

Whitey,
    how many of these jihadi's involved in the 9/11 attacks, Boston or whatever were Palestinian, Afghani or even Iraqi?

none. I dont understand your question and how it realtes to what were specifically discussing here.

(I have already stated on here that I was dead set against the war in Iraq. The 9/11 hijackers were overwhelmingly Saudi. George Bush has a lot of blood on his hands)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on July 25, 2014, 10:45:24 AM
Social media isn't preventing the death of women & children.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: mc_grens on July 25, 2014, 10:52:25 AM
http://youtu.be/4z4TvDbffI0

Putting aside all the politics and bullshit surrounding this for a moment. There can be no possible justification for what's in this Jon snow report.

None.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 25, 2014, 11:00:06 AM
This is well worth a watch if you have the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0gEzPG82pc
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Bingo on July 25, 2014, 12:15:00 PM
There is a video that I unfortunately saw on facebook. generally I'd try and avoid these. Was of a young Palestinian boy in a room. There is a small girl, younger than the boy, with a stick from Isreal (or at least that's what the video says).

She is been encouraged to hit and slap the young lad by her family. He is obviously very distressed but if he tries to protect himself, some of the older ones will strike out. Its about 90 secs long but is very hard to watch.

Those kids, can't be more than 4 and 6 (much the same age as my own kids), should be playing together and living life.

What a f**king world we are in. That video just knocked me this morning.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 12:21:27 PM
Israeli spokesman trying to pin the blame for the school shelling on Hamas

http://www.channel4.com/news/israel-threatens-to-escalate-gaza-offensive-hamas-video

No wonder the Yanks are dropping away like flies from Israel

And here's a special for Mike Sheehy

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2703531/MAX-HASTINGS-Ive-loved-Israel-brutality-breaks-heart.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 12:23:33 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on July 25, 2014, 10:45:24 AM
Social media isn't preventing the death of women & children.
The only thing that will stop Israel is the application of power. Social media is breaking their grip on the Us traditional media narrative. When the people dump them the politicians will follow.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Moortown Spuds on July 25, 2014, 12:53:26 PM
How did Ireland not back the Human Rights Council Vote???

Ambassador Patricia O'Brien
Permanent Representative to the United Nations and other International Organisations at Geneva
Tel. +41 (0)22 919 19 56

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on July 25, 2014, 10:45:24 AM
Social media isn't preventing the death of women & children.
My attitude to social media is twofold.

Social media, and particularly Facebook, by its very nature is almost exclusively vanity-driven, individualistic fluff. It might in theory be able to spread awareness of something but it means people are rarely actually bothered enough to really protest about a cause they can simply "like" on social media. Also people who become aware of a political cause via Facebook links will not likely have very coherent opinions on anything political. The more "intelligent" forms of social media such as comment sections on newspapers, blogs and political forums might provoke some debate but are also great for stifling debate, and obviously Israel is expert at this in all forms of media.

Social media, in reality, unfortunately doesn't amount to much more than a vent that takes the air out of real political protest, especially amongst the younger people that tend to use it. Basically the internet has made people lazy in terms of actually really doing anything about matters of real importance, and while information is much more freely available than it used to be which obviously is a good thing, the internet by its nature is too dispersed for real political protest to gain any kind of effective critical mass through it, certainly in western countries. What the internet is great at is spreading lazy, unfocussed and incoherent political anger which does not result in real protest, and that's common across a range of issues.

The oppression of Gaza is a seemingly perpetual cycle which shows no sign of ending in the foreseeable future,  Some people might say that social media is spreading awareness of the reality of the barbaric nature of the Israeli regime like never before, and perhaps that's true to an extent, but I doubt it'll amount to an increase in real protest. Most young people in the West, in Europe at any rate and certainly in Ireland, have a vague notion that the Palestinians are oppressed, think about it briefly, aren't that bothered about it and go back to leading the rest of their lives. How many of those who "like" pages about supporting the people of Gaza will actually protest? I will and have done, but very few others will. That's just the reality of it, as politicians love to say.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 02:26:07 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on July 25, 2014, 10:45:24 AM
Social media isn't preventing the death of women & children.
My attitude to social media is twofold.

Social media, and particularly Facebook, by its very nature is almost exclusively vanity-driven, individualistic fluff. It might in theory be able to spread awareness of something but it means people are rarely actually bothered enough to really protest about a cause they can simply "like" on social media. Also people who become aware of a political cause via Facebook links will not likely have very coherent opinions on anything political. The more "intelligent" forms of social media such as comment sections on newspapers, blogs and political forums might provoke some debate but are also great for stifling debate, and obviously Israel is expert at this in all forms of media.

Social media, in reality, unfortunately doesn't amount to much more than a vent that takes the air out of real political protest, especially amongst the younger people that tend to use it. Basically the internet has made people lazy in terms of actually really doing anything about matters of real importance, and while information is much more freely available than it used to be which obviously is a good thing, the internet by its nature is too dispersed for real political protest to gain any kind of effective critical mass through it, certainly in western countries. What the internet is great at is spreading lazy, unfocussed and incoherent political anger which does not result in real protest, and that's common across a range of issues.

The oppression of Gaza is a seemingly perpetual cycle which shows no sign of ending in the foreseeable future,  Some people might say that social media is spreading awareness of the reality of the barbaric nature of the Israeli regime like never before, and perhaps that's true to an extent, but I doubt it'll amount to an increase in real protest. Most young people in the West, in Europe at any rate and certainly in Ireland, have a vague notion that the Palestinians are oppressed, think about it briefly, aren't that bothered about it and go back to leading the rest of their lives. How many of those who "like" pages about supporting the people of Gaza will actually protest? I will and have done, but very few others will. That's just the reality of it, as politicians love to say.
Fair enough Sidney but Israel is a special case. It's dependent on rock solid US political support so it needs to develop loyalty amongst Americans every generation. And as long as Israeli supporters had serious influence in the main media companies they could control what the networks and major newspapers produced.

Now the support is tailing off among people under 30, mostly because they don't bother with traditional media and because the social media field is much more balanced - there is less bias towards Israel because there aren't enough individual heads to control the dialogue which is not mediated in the same way that media editors control what appears and what doesn't. Zionism is a minority thing- most people have no interest in a Jewish Sparta.   Social media takes the money out of the debate.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 25, 2014, 02:29:21 PM
https://www.facebook.com/irish4israel (https://www.facebook.com/irish4israel)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:36:30 PM
I'm not saying people shouldn't try to spread awareness of what's happening on social media, just that unfortunately I doubt it'll have any real effect.

I've only just returned to Ireland after five weeks in Australia so I don't know what the turn out at protests here has been like, but having participated in the Sydney march I didn't think the crowd was huge for a city of four million people.

Social media is in my view inherently anti-political in that it promotes a culture of the self that works against the type of collective values that are needed for political protest to succeed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:36:30 PM
I'm not saying people shouldn't try to spread awareness of what's happening on social media, just that unfortunately I doubt it'll have any real effect.

I've only just returned to Ireland after five weeks in Australia so I don't know what the turn out at protests here has been like, but having participated in the Sydney march I didn't think the crowd was huge for a city of four million people.

Social media is in my view inherently anti-political in that it promotes a culture of the self that works against the type of collective values that are needed for political protest to succeed.
It depends whether or not it can be harnessed in a bigger coalition. In the States Democrats, women and young people are turning away from Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:57:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 02:41:08 PM

It depends whether or not it can be harnessed in a bigger coalition. In the States Democrats, women and young people are turning away from Israel.
I hear about this kind of thing, but I believe to be not much more than pissing in the wind. Despite the current difficulties of traditional media, it still rules the roost in terms of what "acceptable" public opinion is, and it's clear to me that having a view that is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause is still not acceptable in the US mainstream, because traditional media is still firmly and blindly pro-Israel. You only have to look at what happened to that NBA player last week to see that any type of view that is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause is taboo in the US. Contrast that to Bill Maher's utterly sickening comments - he'll remain a pillar of US media and they'll probably strengthen his career, if anything.

Penetrating the centres of power is the only thing that matters, and I don't see how social media will ever do that. Israel has the centres of power in the US and the wider Western world tied around around its little finger, and that's why it will be able to get away with what it wants for as long as it wants.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on July 25, 2014, 03:21:09 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:57:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 02:41:08 PM

It depends whether or not it can be harnessed in a bigger coalition. In the States Democrats, women and young people are turning away from Israel.
I hear about this kind of thing, but I believe to be not much more than pissing in the wind. Despite the current difficulties of traditional media, it still rules the roost in terms of what "acceptable" public opinion is, and it's clear to me that having a view that is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause is still not acceptable in the US mainstream, because traditional media is still firmly and blindly pro-Israel. You only have to look at what happened to that NBA player last week to see that any type of view that is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause is taboo in the US. Contrast that to Bill Maher's utterly sickening comments - he'll remain a pillar of US media and they'll probably strengthen his career, if anything.

Penetrating the centres of power is the only thing that matters, and I don't see how social media will ever do that. Israel has the centres of power in the US and the wider Western world tied around around its little finger, and that's why it will be able to get away with what it wants for as long as it wants.

I disagree. in this case, there is a huge swell of support for Palestine, and its growing. You would have a bias towards the US, but with social media spreading the truth, younger americans (young folk like to be rebellious) are waking up to these dispicable war crimes. You only have to tune into the bbc, c4, rte, check online with the bbc and even in the last few days, there is much more coverage of deaths of the civilians. Boycotting certain brands etc, being hit where it hurts most, in their pockets. Power to the people
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 25, 2014, 03:35:41 PM
http://davidduke.com/nba-superstar/ (http://davidduke.com/nba-superstar/)

Very sad state of affairs.

He tweeted 'Free Palestine' and immediately came under fire.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 25, 2014, 03:37:58 PM
David Duke? Is that not the guy who was Grand w**kstain Wizzimijig Knight of the KKK?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 25, 2014, 03:42:07 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 25, 2014, 03:37:58 PM
David Duke? Is that not the guy who was Grand w**kstain Wizzimijig Knight of the KKK?

Incredibly yes.

He is supporting a black basketballer for tweeting support of Arabs.

Evidently his other prejudices trumps the usual ones.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 25, 2014, 03:44:30 PM
After reading more about Duke I thought it might be better to put up another link: http://www.thenation.com/blog/180702/dwight-howard-and-freepalestine# (http://www.thenation.com/blog/180702/dwight-howard-and-freepalestine#)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 25, 2014, 03:44:57 PM
That's because he hates Jews. I think he hates Jews more than he hates blacks.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 03:49:36 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 25, 2014, 02:57:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 25, 2014, 02:41:08 PM

It depends whether or not it can be harnessed in a bigger coalition. In the States Democrats, women and young people are turning away from Israel.
Politics are funny. Israel may not  be as toxic as the news of the world yet but it will be. And elites are cool until the people turn on something in which  case they will shaft it immediately. Even the news of the world.   Even Israel.  Power doesn't  have friends. Elites  are brutal.
I hear about this kind of thing, but I believe to be not much more than pissing in the wind. Despite the current difficulties of traditional media, it still rules the roost in terms of what "acceptable" public opinion is, and it's clear to me that having a view that is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause is still not acceptable in the US mainstream, because traditional media is still firmly and blindly pro-Israel. You only have to look at what happened to that NBA player last week to see that any type of view that is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause is taboo in the US. Contrast that to Bill Maher's utterly sickening comments - he'll remain a pillar of US media and they'll probably strengthen his career, if anything.

Penetrating the centres of power is the only thing that matters, and I don't see how social media will ever do that. Israel has the centres of power in the US and the wider Western world tied around around its little finger, and that's why it will be able to get away with what it wants for as long as it wants.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 25, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 25, 2014, 03:44:57 PM
That's because he hates Jews. I think he hates Jews more than he hates blacks.

I didn't realise these scumbags had an order for their hatred.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 25, 2014, 04:58:10 PM
(http://i1.wp.com/theduckshoot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Christopher-Hedges-journo-in-Gaza.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: red hander on July 25, 2014, 05:18:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 25, 2014, 04:58:10 PM
(http://i1.wp.com/theduckshoot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Christopher-Hedges-journo-in-Gaza.jpg)

Which is exactly what SS prison guards did in the death camps... but then again, what's going on in Gaza is just what went on in the Warsaw ghetto. Who said irony is dead? Murdering Israeli bastards.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: moysider on July 25, 2014, 10:43:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 25, 2014, 04:58:10 PM
(http://i1.wp.com/theduckshoot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Christopher-Hedges-journo-in-Gaza.jpg)

What network is this guy with?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 26, 2014, 12:02:42 AM
Is there anywhere I can find a list of Israeli consumer companies trading in ireland? With a view to boycotting them?? The only Israeli products I ever see are an occasional packet of basil or coriander
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: andoireabu on July 26, 2014, 01:31:16 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 26, 2014, 12:02:42 AM
Is there anywhere I can find a list of Israeli consumer companies trading in ireland? With a view to boycotting them?? The only Israeli products I ever see are an occasional packet of basil or coriander
http://www.ipsc.ie/campaigns/consumer-boycott (http://www.ipsc.ie/campaigns/consumer-boycott)
this might be a start
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rrhf on July 26, 2014, 02:39:33 AM
the legacy and ideals of the bastard concentration camp is kept alive by those whom  it affected most.  Israel you whore..
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: DrinkingHarp on July 26, 2014, 03:52:24 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 26, 2014, 12:02:42 AM
Is there anywhere I can find a list of Israeli consumer companies trading in ireland? With a view to boycotting them?? The only Israeli products I ever see are an occasional packet of basil or coriander

https://www.facebook.com/pages/IIBN-Ireland-Israel-Business-Network/635807506436482

http://www.iibn.org/about-us/4578349204
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: THE MIGHTY QUINN on July 26, 2014, 07:29:34 AM
Lidl and tesco always have the country of origin on their fruit and veg. I've been using that information to boycott Israeli goods for years.  I also boycott Caterpillar as they supply heavy moving equipment to the IDF
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on July 26, 2014, 07:41:02 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 26, 2014, 12:02:42 AM
Is there anywhere I can find a list of Israeli consumer companies trading in ireland? With a view to boycotting them?? The only Israeli products I ever see are an occasional packet of basil or coriander


Download app BUYCOTT to your phone and it will scan every product and tell you if they are Israeli friendly or not.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: bcarrier on July 26, 2014, 08:20:51 AM
@Independent: This is what happens when a Palestinian guest appears on Fox News

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/this-is-what-happens-when-a-palestinian-guest-appears-on-fox-news--lkXS-ltkze
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 10:30:51 AM
Quote from: THE MIGHTY QUINN on July 26, 2014, 07:29:34 AM
Lidl and tesco always have the country of origin on their fruit and veg. I've been using that information to boycott Israeli goods for years.  I also boycott Caterpillar as they supply heavy moving equipment to the IDF

Good stuff. A few of us protested at Caterpillar's factory in West Belfast on Wednesday and also at Invest NI who recently gave them a £1 million grant to go towards more war crimes in Palestine. 

All parties to the Northern Ireland Executive also backed this grant and awarded a further £250,000 to them.

2 of the parties who backed these grants have adopted the call for BDS from Palestinian society, and top of the list for boycotting is Caterpillar. Hypocrisy of the highest order.

Plus, no media outlet will cover this angle as I have been personally told by the Irish News that there is no way they are going to run a story that highlights not only the hypocrisy by both parties, but Caterpillars involvement in war crimes in Palestine.

Right now, fleets of Caterpillar D9 Bulldozers are razing building to the ground in Gaza, and those at the front lines supporting Palestine have not only supported them, but continue to turn a blind eye to this activity.

This is a short video of our protest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TioG-clibck
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on July 26, 2014, 10:41:17 AM
whats Labour and the Lib Dm thoughts on the massacre in Gaza?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 10:44:19 AM
Ive said it before. Boycot of caterpillar is plain stupid. They make earth moving machines and can hardly be help responsible for how they are used. What next, boycot Toyota because israel uses landcruisers? Stupid far fetched protests like that only alienate you from the rest of the population, the sane people you need to influence.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 26, 2014, 10:50:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 10:44:19 AM
Ive said it before. Boycot of caterpillar is plain stupid. They make earth moving machines and can hardly be help responsible for how they are used. What next, boycot Toyota because israel uses landcruisers? Stupid far fetched protests like that only alienate you from the rest of the population, the sane people you need to influence.

I thought the same thing. Unless Caterpillar are producing stuff specifically for the IDF, then it'd be like boycotting Microsoft or Dell because they use Computers and Software to co-ordinate the air strikes.

I'm not going buying anything made in Israel, and I have no problem boycotting anything that is specifically designed to help the Israeli war effort, but I'm not going boycotting items that Israelis might use in some way.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 10:54:45 AM
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on July 26, 2014, 10:41:17 AM
whats Labour and the Lib Dm thoughts on the massacre in Gaza?
lib dem leadership are toeing the line but some mps are more vocal.
Israel lost the plot this week.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 10:57:22 AM
There is a 12 hour humanitarian ceasefire. Rescue workers have already pulled 60 bodies from rubble that was not previously accessible. Israel should hit the 1000 killed very soon.

Total PR disaster. It's like a child abuse ring.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 26, 2014, 11:00:48 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 10:57:22 AM
There is a 12 hour humanitarian ceasefire. Rescue workers have already pulled 60 bodies from rubble that was not previously accessible. Israel should hit the 1000 killed very soon.

Total PR disaster. It's like a child abuse ring.

Except everyone condemns child abuse. I can't believe some of the comments I read about this attack. It's like people are so emotionally invested in protecting Israel that they've decided to defend them to the nth degree, regardless.

My take on this is very similar to Muppet's, and even Mike Sheehy's. Israel is committing war crimes and should be held to account for it. But the long term solution, if there is to be one, will require a two state solution, with some external force policing and ensuring order.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 10:44:19 AM
Ive said it before. Boycot of caterpillar is plain stupid. They make earth moving machines and can hardly be help responsible for how they are used. What next, boycot Toyota because israel uses landcruisers? Stupid far fetched protests like that only alienate you from the rest of the population, the sane people you need to influence.

Caterpillar are complicit in war crimes. That's not my opinion, but also the opinion of the UN expert Professor Richard Falk. He has led the calls for a boycott of Caterpillar among others.

Caterpillar supply the D9 Dozers to the IDF, and they are also heavily fortified.

The IDF call them a "Strategic weapon"

Every month, there is news of another group of investors pulling their money out of them because of their involvement in war crimes in Palestine. $200 million has been withdrawn in nearly 2 years. The most recent was the Presbyterian church who took out $21 million from Caterpillar, Motorolla, and Hewlett Packard.

Take your pick of any of the links below in order to more of what I am talking about.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/21/us/presbyterian-church-palestinians/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/27/caterpillar-socially-responsible-indexes_n_1629992.html

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=43376#.U9N8uEBQz6M

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/07/uk-israel-palestinians-demolitions-idUKBREA160NB20140207

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Puin9z4IzU

http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/peaceworks/call-cat-out-on-its-faulty-actions-explanations

http://www.bdsmovement.net/2013/hyundai-ends-relationship-with-home-demolition-equipment-firm-10469

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TctY_Yfod4


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 11:35:27 AM
Motion 106  Passed

This Ard Fheis extends our continuing solidarity with the people of Palestine and urges full support for the boycott and divestment (BDS) campaign of Israeli goods and services, including Caterpillar, particularly those involved in settlement activity. This Ard Fheis particularly views with concern the activities of Cement Roadstone, an Irish company, and calls for an investigation into their activities and the activities of all such companies in collaborating in human rights violations.

This Ard Fheis also calls for an end to all trade with Israeli agricultural companies complicit with Israel's system of occupation, colonisation and apartheid. This Ard Fheis calls on the incoming Ard Chomhairle to ask all comhairli ceantair and cumainn to join with others supporting broad-based campaigns working towards ending agricultural trade with Israel that finances and rewards the destruction of Palestinian farming.

Pól Kinsella Cumann, Derry

http://www.sinnfein.ie/ard-fheis-2013-motions
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 12:10:11 PM
Sorry Dixie. An earth mover, whether fortified or with bells on it is not a weapon. Its an earth mover. I could go out and rent a Hitachi machine and wreck half a town if I want, doesn't make Hitachi complicit in what I do. Caterpillar are just an easy target as they sell into lots of markets. Its the people who make the weapons, tanks, guns and the components in them that you should target and I bet there are plenty of them around.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 12:10:57 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtdvFvyIIAAn2fi.jpg)


85 bodies, including children and women, were pulled out from under the rubble so far since the truce began

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 26, 2014, 12:13:18 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 26, 2014, 11:00:48 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 10:57:22 AM
There is a 12 hour humanitarian ceasefire. Rescue workers have already pulled 60 bodies from rubble that was not previously accessible. Israel should hit the 1000 killed very soon.

Total PR disaster. It's like a child abuse ring.

Except everyone condemns child abuse. I can't believe some of the comments I read about this attack. It's like people are so emotionally invested in protecting Israel that they've decided to defend them to the nth degree, regardless.

My take on this is very similar to Muppet's, and even Mike Sheehy's. Israel is committing war crimes and should be held to account for it. But the long term solution, if there is to be one, will require a two state solution, with some external force policing and ensuring order.

I think you are wasting your time AZ. Most of the social media warriors are not interested in real solutions that mean making hard choices.If people genuinely wanted to stop the slaughter they should be offering solutions as to how to prevent it from happening. That involves going back to first principles and stating clearly what you believe in. The problem is that people on here won't even declare whether they support the two state solution or not because they know that if you do that then you must address the security question. If you refuse to address that question this will keep happening and these escalations will keep getting more and more brutal.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 26, 2014, 12:15:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 12:10:11 PM
Sorry Dixie. An earth mover, whether fortified or with bells on it is not a weapon. Its an earth mover. I could go out and rent a Hitachi machine and wreck half a town if I want, doesn't make Hitachi complicit in what I do. Caterpillar are just an easy target as they sell into lots of markets. Its the people who make the weapons, tanks, guns and the components in them that you should target and I bet there are plenty of them around.

Actually, why stop at caterpillar, shouldn't we be going after anybody that works for Israeli companies or companies that do business in Israel.

That seems like a reasonable place to start.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 12:19:03 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 12:10:11 PM
Sorry Dixie. An earth mover, whether fortified or with bells on it is not a weapon. Its an earth mover. I could go out and rent a Hitachi machine and wreck half a town if I want, doesn't make Hitachi complicit in what I do. Caterpillar are just an easy target as they sell into lots of markets. Its the people who make the weapons, tanks, guns and the components in them that you should target and I bet there are plenty of them around.

Itchy, did you look at any of the links I posted?

Caterpillar equipment is sold to the IDF under the "Military Aid Programme" from the USA.

Israel get $3 Billion per year from the US taxpayers to buy Military Equipment back from the USA. The D9's are part of that military aid. They are not sold as ordinary earth moving equipment.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 12:36:09 PM
What's wrong then is the agreement between the US and Israel, not Caterpillar. Maybe we should boycot american companies?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 12:48:55 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 12:36:09 PM
What's wrong then is the agreement between the US and Israel, not Caterpillar. Maybe we should boycot american companies?

No Itchy, what is wrong is the fact that Caterpillar sells their machines as Military weapons. They top the list of companies to Boycott when it comes to Palestine. They are complicit in War Crimes. Plus, they should not be funded in Belfast with our taxpayers money, and the political leaders here need to grow a pair of balls and honor their commitment to boycotting Caterpillar. They can't ride 2 horses at the same time.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on July 26, 2014, 01:10:31 PM
Lads just so you know Caterpillar has been supplying the D9s to the Israeli army for nearly 60 years now and they have had them modified over the years from standard earth moving machines to effectively a machine of war.  They are the most heavily fortified bulldozer in the world and are basically used in a form of 'scorched earth' policy.  They drive the rubble further and further back into Gaza thereby minimalising the ground available to the Palestinians and at the same same time destroying Palestinian homes.  They have also been used as a moving blockade for Israeli ground troops to hide behind as they usurp land.  Caterpillar have inextricably been linked with the history of conflict in Israel and are heavily involved in the manufacture of engines etc that are used in many different tanks submarines etc.  I will caveat this by stating that the IDF make the modifications to the bull dozer but there is no doubt that they work hand in fist with Caterpillar in doing so.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 01:15:01 PM
Az

Stephen walt said last year in foreign policy that words are not enough
to deal with a 47 year old system of colonisation. The only thing that will work is the application of power. 2 states are not going to happen unless 3/4 of a million settlers in the west bank  go home. The whole reason they are there is to stop the emergence of a palestinian state. That is the logic of Zion ism. Who is going to root them out?

Israel is only going to deteriorate. There is no point in expecting it to become a normal country.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 01:27:19 PM
Does anyone remember how Israel blamed Hamas for kidnapping the 3 settlers?

Well, Israel have now said it was a lone cell........

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 01:34:22 PM
Entire Gaza family killed prior to ceasefire, as death toll tops 985

Minutes before the humanitarian ceasefire went into effect in Gaza on Saturday morning, meanwhile, an Israeli airstrike left at least 20 members of a Palestinian family dead in Khan Younis refugee camp.

The al-Najjar family had fled their homes in Khuzaa, just east of Khan Younis, earlier in the day after Israeli artillery shelling there killed dozens, and they were hoping to find shelter somewhere further from the border.

Their refuge in Khan Younis, however, turned out to be anything but, as missiles fired from Israeli warplanes just before 8 a.m. completely leveled the four-story building they were sleeping in.

The airstrike killed eleven children, four women, and five men from the family, according to Palestinian medical sources.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=716306
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 01:51:00 PM
(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10360705_10152619826994314_3011173634286983579_n.jpg?oh=d01e083771cf0f932197a88d67d2b6e2&oe=543A0FBE)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 01:51:52 PM
Well worth reading 

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2014/07/26/israel-murders-idf-soldier-to-prevent-his-kidnapping/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 02:06:32 PM
I know it's short notice, but there will be rally of solidarity for Gaza in Anne St car park today in Dungannon at 3pm

I will be speaking at it, so please come along if possible 

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10526133_10152617852094314_6147292265753206782_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ONeill on July 26, 2014, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: bcarrier on July 26, 2014, 08:20:51 AM
@Independent: This is what happens when a Palestinian guest appears on Fox News

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/this-is-what-happens-when-a-palestinian-guest-appears-on-fox-news--lkXS-ltkze

Jaysus that was infuriating to watch.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 26, 2014, 12:15:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 12:10:11 PM
Sorry Dixie. An earth mover, whether fortified or with bells on it is not a weapon. Its an earth mover. I could go out and rent a Hitachi machine and wreck half a town if I want, doesn't make Hitachi complicit in what I do. Caterpillar are just an easy target as they sell into lots of markets. Its the people who make the weapons, tanks, guns and the components in them that you should target and I bet there are plenty of them around.

Actually, why stop at caterpillar, shouldn't we be going after anybody that works for Israeli companies or companies that do business in Israel.

That seems like a reasonable place to start.
It will probably come down to sanctions but way too late. Israel doesn't care about international law whichmis why it runs apartheid and that means it can't have the security it craves. Settlers killed 2 Palestinians yesterday.

Israel threw over $100bn into the settlement project. Who is going to tell the people of israel the money was wasted?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 03:49:06 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 02:06:32 PM
I know it's short notice, but there will be rally of solidarity for Gaza in Anne St car park today in Dungannon at 3pm

I will be speaking at it, so please come along if possible 

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10526133_10152617852094314_6147292265753206782_n.jpg)
Did Latuff draw the Tyrone flag?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 04:37:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 03:49:06 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 02:06:32 PM
I know it's short notice, but there will be rally of solidarity for Gaza in Anne St car park today in Dungannon at 3pm

I will be speaking at it, so please come along if possible 

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10526133_10152617852094314_6147292265753206782_n.jpg)
Did Latuff draw the Tyrone flag?

I asked him yesterday to come up with a piece of art to reflect the solidarity from Dungannon to Gaza. This is what he produced. I think it is a fantastic piece and today we raised it high as hundreds walked up Irish St to the Hill of O'Neill at the top of the square.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2014, 05:55:11 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Btd2VCeIEAA9G4O.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 06:10:23 PM
Don't take my word on who to boycott, see who Professor Richard Falk wants boycotted.


UN independent expert calls for boycott of businesses profiting from Israeli settlements

25 October 2012 – A United Nations independent expert today called on the world body's General Assembly, as well as civil society, to take action against Israeli and international businesses that are profiting from Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory.

"My main recommendation is that the businesses highlighted in the report – as well as the many other businesses that are profiting from the Israeli settlement enterprise – should be boycotted, until they bring their operations into line with international human rights and humanitarian law and standards," the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, Richard Falk, said in a news release issued as he presented a report on his work to the Assembly.

Highlighting the activities of companies such as Caterpillar Incorporated of the United States, Veolia Environment of France, G4S of the United Kingdom, the Dexia Group of Belgium, Ahava of Israel, the Volvo Group of Sweden, the Riwal Holding Group of the Netherlands, Elbit Systems of Israel, Hewlett Packard of the USA, Mehadrin of Israel, Motorola of the USA, Assa Abloy of Sweden, and Cemex of Mexico, the Special Rapporteur noted that a wide range of Israeli and international businesses are involved in the establishment and maintenance of the Israeli settlements.

"All Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established in clear violation of international law," said Mr. Falk.

"Yet today Israeli settlements control over 40 percent of the West Bank and between 500,000 and 600,000 Israeli citizens are living in Palestinian territory," he added. "In the last 12 months alone, the settler population has increased by over 15,000 persons."

He drew the Assembly's attention to developing international law and standards concerning businesses and human rights, including the UN Global Compact and the UN Guiding Principles on Businesses and Human Rights.

"The principles outlined in the Global Compact are clear," Mr. Falk said. "Businesses should support and respect the protection of internationally proclaimed human rights and ensure that they are not complicit in human rights abuses."

The Global Compact is a strategic policy initiative for businesses that are committed to aligning their operations and strategies with ten universally accepted principles in the areas of human rights, labour, environment and anti-corruption. The Guiding Principles, endorsed by the Human Rights Council, provide a global standard for preventing and addressing the risk of adverse impacts on human rights linked to business activity.

Mr. Falk also noted guidance developed by the International Committee of the Red Cross that points to the prospect of corporate and individual criminal responsibility for violations committed during a situation of armed conflict.

"In short, businesses should not breach international humanitarian law provisions. Nor should they be complicit in any breaches. If they do, they may be subject to criminal or civil liability. And this liability can be extended to individual employees of such businesses," the Special Rapporteur said in presenting his report.

Mr. Falk noted that he had written to all the businesses mentioned in his report, and that positive responses were received from some of them.

"It is encouraging to be informed that Assa Abloy has moved its Mul-T-Locks factory from the West Bank to Israel, and that the Dexia Group, G4S, and Cemex are looking for ways to bring their operations into line with their commitments under the UN Global Compact," he added.

Independent experts, or special rapporteurs, are appointed by the Geneva-based Human Rights Council to examine and report back on a country situation or a specific human rights theme. The positions are honorary and the experts are not United Nations staff, nor are they paid for their work.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=43376#.U9PgHkBQz6N
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2014, 06:13:50 PM
Why is he not using the term 'ethnic cleansing?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 26, 2014, 06:56:11 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2014, 06:13:50 PM
Why is he not using the term 'ethnic cleansing?
You can only use that term about baddies, and Israel is a cuddly wuddly teddy bear, diddums.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2014, 07:00:47 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 26, 2014, 06:56:11 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2014, 06:13:50 PM
Why is he not using the term 'ethnic cleansing?
You can only use that term about baddies, and Israel is a cuddly wuddly teddy bear, diddums.

Yes but he said this:
Quote"All Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established in clear violation of international law," said Mr. Falk.

"Yet today Israeli settlements control over 40 percent of the West Bank and between 500,000 and 600,000 Israeli citizens are living in Palestinian territory," he added. "In the last 12 months alone, the settler population has increased by over 15,000 persons."

That seems remarkably similar to this:
QuoteThe official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group."

As a category, ethnic cleansing encompasses a continuum or spectrum of policies. In the words of Andrew Bell-Fialkoff:

[E]thnic cleansing [...] defies easy definition. At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population exchange while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide. At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of a population from a given territory.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 07:03:16 PM
GHD

Fantastic. Latuff really understands the conflict.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 26, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
Hamas as a military force is on its knees with its former allies in the Muslim world lost.
The reality is that  it does not even have the full support of the people of Gaza.It is clear that their engagement with Israel was  designed to garner worldwide support for their cause with the ultimate goal of international intervention.This is being done knowingly on the back of dead children,woman and civilians.
         Israel have reacted predictably as Hamas hoped.Israel have clearly been guilty of grotesque
acts of war which has resulted in a barbarity and devastation in Gaza.Hamas too are guilty in a despicable way also as it is the mounting death toll of the people of Gaza which it believes will ultimately strengthen its hand.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 07:30:49 PM
Muppet,

I remember you saying how irresponsible it was for Hamas to fire rockets into Israel and bring such wrath upon their people. I think a lot of people would have agreed. There was an analysis in the FT today about what is likely to beb done with Gaza. It seems there will be an end to the siege and development of the infrastructure. Kerry has to sell this to Israel. A desperately poor gaza is too dangerous for Israel. They can lob missiles at israel's only international airport if they are not happy. The tunnels scared the shit out of them too. Better  to allow Gaza some dignity. Ariel Sharon was wrong.
The dynamics are very interesting and not always intuitive.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2014, 07:37:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 07:30:49 PM
Muppet,

I remember you saying how irresponsible it was for Hamas to fire rockets into Israel and bring such wrath upon their people. I think a lot of people would have agreed. There was an analysis in the FT today about what is likely to beb done with Gaza. It seems there will be an end to the siege and development of the infrastructure. Kerry has to sell this to Israel. A desperately poor gaza is too dangerous for Israel. They can lob missiles at israel's only international airport if they are not happy. The tunnels scared the shit out of them too. Better  to allow Gaza some dignity. Ariel Sharon was wrong.
The dynamics are very interesting and not always intuitive.

Kerry can easily sell it to Israel. He simply says 'we will vote for the next War Crimes motion at the UN'.

The dynamics don't interest me. The numbers do.

(http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140726_LDC389_0.png)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 07:42:11 PM
Fair enough Dixie, you have decent backup for your boycot. I just think where do you draw the line. If u were to rake that stance and include every conflict I expect you'd have to boycot everyone. Would you not be better off get all your gang together and sit at every entrance to the Israeli embassy and let no one in or out.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 07:43:30 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 26, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
Hamas as a military force is on its knees with its former allies in the Muslim world lost.
The reality is that  it does not even have the full support of the people of Gaza.It is clear that their engagement with Israel was  designed to garner worldwide support for their cause with the ultimate goal of international intervention.This is being done knowingly on the back of dead children,woman and civilians.
         Israel have reacted predictably as Hamas hoped.Israel have clearly been guilty of grotesque
acts of war which has resulted in a barbarity and devastation in Gaza.Hamas too are guilty in a despicable way also as it is the mounting death toll of the people of Gaza which it believes will ultimately strengthen its hand.
When you have to explain dead kids you are losing. Ask Mark Regev.
And 32 dead soldiers really freaks Israel out. Very bad poll numbers for Israel in the US too. I hope you get paid.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2014, 07:46:17 PM
Israel now admits that Hamas didn't order the killings of the 3 young Israeli lads.

Netanyahu told the world the opposite and triggered the violence which precipitated this war.

I would love to see the idiot who orders the firing of rockets at civilians in Israel and Netanyau both arrested for war crimes.



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: THE MIGHTY QUINN on July 26, 2014, 07:49:49 PM
Death toll on Gaza side how higher than the combined UK and Argentine losses in the Falklands war
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on July 26, 2014, 07:53:06 PM
Some great speeches outside the Israeli embassy today. Claire Daly in particular spoke very well. There was also a live link up to Gaza.

I think it was also announced that members of the Mandate union that worked in supermarkets would not stack shelves with Israeli goods.

In our hundreds, in our millions, we are all Palestinians
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 08:19:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2014, 07:46:17 PM
Israel now admits that Hamas didn't order the killings of the 3 young Israeli lads.

Netanyahu told the world the opposite and triggered the violence which precipitated this war.

I would love to see the idiot who orders the firing of rockets at civilians in Israel and Netanyau both arrested for war crimes.
Netanyahu will never be arrested but he may die in exile.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on July 26, 2014, 09:06:22 PM
BBC news ...Hamas reject truce and fire rockets into Israel. Any other updates?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 09:10:40 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 06:10:41 PM
Recording of teen's emergency call released. Audio of call placed by Gilad Shaar to police on night of kidnapping catches his plea, 'They kidnapped me,' followed by shouts and gunshots.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602442/1.602442

They knew all along the boys were dead, but yet Netanyahu put up a charade for 3 weeks telling the world Hamas kidnapped them and they were going to find them and bring them home. That lie led to what we see in Gaza right now.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 09:27:14 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 09:10:40 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 06:10:41 PM
Recording of teen's emergency call released. Audio of call placed by Gilad Shaar to police on night of kidnapping catches his plea, 'They kidnapped me,' followed by shouts and gunshots.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602442/1.602442

They knew all along the boys were dead, but yet Netanyahu put up a charade for 3 weeks telling the world Hamas kidnapped them and they were going to find them and bring them home. That lie led to what we see in Gaza right now.
Which is at least 40 dead israeli soldiers, 25% approval among americans 18-29, the strengthening of hamas, a massive generational split amongst jews in the US and international outrage. Sumud 1 Hasbara 0.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 09:34:30 PM
I went back a number of pages to when the news broke about the discovery of the 3 settlers who went missing.

It was crystal clear from then that Israel were hell bent on doing what they have now done. And they are not finished....

It starts from here

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=22339.1635
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2014, 09:43:59 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 09:34:30 PM
I went back a number of pages to when the news broke about the discovery of the 3 settlers who went missing.

It was crystal clear from then that Israel were hell bent on doing what they have now done. And they are not finished....

It starts from here

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=22339.1635
it goes back to april when hamas made up with fatah. Israel decided then to act. The teenagers were the catalyst.But now Israel is stuck. Very difficult for hasbara.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 09:48:34 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 26, 2014, 07:42:11 PM
Fair enough Dixie, you have decent backup for your boycot. I just think where do you draw the line. If u were to rake that stance and include every conflict I expect you'd have to boycot everyone. Would you not be better off get all your gang together and sit at every entrance to the Israeli embassy and let no one in or out.

If it was up to me Itchy I would chase them out and turn the Embassy into a museum showing what they got up to in Palestine, and what hey did to the people and their land !!

On boycotting, that was a call from numerous groups and individuals in Palestine asking for people and Governments to BDS Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions. It was their call that got the support that BDS now has. When the women walked out of Dunnes stores did anyone thing it would lead to where it did?

As we have seen over the past 2 weeks, the Governments have let the Palestinians down, and that ordinary people worldwide are the ones making the shift. Trust me, the BDS movement is rolling now at a pace taht can't be stopped. After the past 2 weeks, it's only going to grow.

I am one of very few people who keeps on bringing up Caterpillar. Up until the NI Assembly and Invest NI decided to throw our money at them, every Pro Palestinian group in Ireland were targeting Caterpillar.  Then, it was dropped like a hot potato because no one was going to question the grant because to a large extent, Sinn Fein control most groups. They control the message.

Caterpillar do more damage in Palestine that any other weapon, and they top every activists list of companies to boycott. Sadly, not in Ireland though.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dferg on July 26, 2014, 09:58:06 PM
Flag calling for a bi-national state. In the anti-war protest in Tel Aviv

http://instagram.com/p/q7Hp5KI0Vq/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 26, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on July 26, 2014, 07:53:06 PM
Some great speeches outside the Israeli embassy today. Claire Daly in particular spoke very well. There was also a live link up to Gaza.

I think it was also announced that members of the Mandate union that worked in supermarkets would not stack shelves with Israeli goods.

In our hundreds, in our millions, we are all Palestinians

Claire Daly is a busy woman,Scaling fences in Shannon Airport one week and chief orator outside the Israeli Embassy the next.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: mylestheslasher on July 26, 2014, 10:36:37 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 26, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on July 26, 2014, 07:53:06 PM
Some great speeches outside the Israeli embassy today. Claire Daly in particular spoke very well. There was also a live link up to Gaza.

I think it was also announced that members of the Mandate union that worked in supermarkets would not stack shelves with Israeli goods.

In our hundreds, in our millions, we are all Palestinians

Claire Daly is a busy woman,Scaling fences in Shannon Airport one week and chief orator outside the Israeli Embassy the next.

She has more balls than that waste of space Charlie Flanagan, I though the previous government was bad when they should have taken severe action against the Israeli ambassador, but we are now so gutless we abstain on crucial votes in europe. Next FG p***k that calls to my door is going to get a serious bollocking.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 11:27:23 PM
(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/p403x403/10570511_789680861062333_4111676742702039047_n.jpg)

Ernest Rosenthal, a 95-year-old Holocaust survivor, demonstrates in solidarity with Gaza in LA, California. Respect for humanity
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 27, 2014, 12:32:28 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 26, 2014, 10:18:03 PM

Claire Daly is a busy woman,Scaling fences in Shannon Airport one week and chief orator outside the Israeli Embassy the next.
Politicians tend to be busy people (apart from those who are in Fianna Fail). No flies on you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 27, 2014, 02:23:09 AM
Massive protest in San Francisco today. Must have been thousands at it. Bunch of Zionist hecklers didn't stay for long when they saw how big it was getting.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 02:54:43 AM
Before our very eyes, over the past 2 weeks, we have witnessed the death of humanity.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 27, 2014, 08:39:07 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 02:54:43 AM
Before our very eyes, over the past 2 weeks, we have witnessed the death of humanity.

At least it has been witnessed by the world and their is a humanitarian presence.Hopefully for
the innocent victims of Gaza some of the foreign Aid finds its way through to the people.
This appears unlikely as Hamas have broken the humanitarian ceasefire and are firing rockets into Israel.And so the cycle of death returns again.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 27, 2014, 08:45:36 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 02:54:43 AM
Before our very eyes, over the past 2 weeks, we have witnessed the death of humanity.


You might actually be seeing the rise of it GHD. It's awful that it had to happen, but it seems the message is getting through around the world. Israel is the definition of a rogue state at the moment.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2014, 09:44:50 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 27, 2014, 08:39:07 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 02:54:43 AM
Before our very eyes, over the past 2 weeks, we have witnessed the death of humanity.

At least it has been witnessed by the world and their is a humanitarian presence.Hopefully for
the innocent victims of Gaza some of the foreign Aid finds its way through to the people.
This appears unlikely as Hamas have broken the humanitarian ceasefire and are firing rockets into Israel.And so the cycle of death returns again.
Israel is doing the killing.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: StephenC on July 27, 2014, 12:20:38 PM
Did Hamas break the humanitarian cease fire?
Why did they break it?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 27, 2014, 12:25:10 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 11:27:23 PM
(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/p403x403/10570511_789680861062333_4111676742702039047_n.jpg)

Ernest Rosenthal, a 95-year-old Holocaust survivor, demonstrates in solidarity with Gaza in LA, California. Respect for humanity

Respect for humanity should be universal GHD. I'm not convinced that you reciprocate this mans gesture which is my biggest problem with you in particular.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 01:02:25 PM
We have no opinion on mass slaughter

We're truly sorry about the dead children, but we have other priorities in foreign affairs, writes Gene Kerrigan

Last week, Charlie had to stand over the Irish Government's decision to abstain on a United Nations vote on the Gaza slaughter. UN member states had a choice - intervene in the slaughter or stand idly by. Intervening by resolution mightn't achieve much, but there was a stark difference between voting for the resolution and not doing so.

It really doesn't matter how appalled and shocked we say we are about the deliberate slaughter of civilians. If we're asked to allow the UN to hold a formal inquiry and we shrug our shoulders we're saying, yeah, sorry about the dead kids - appalled, shocked - but we have other fish to fry.

As the slaughter continues, the Israelis and their enemies lay down ceaseless barrages of propaganda. Turn on a radio or TV and there's always some wide-eyed zealot from one side or the other speaking with intense sincerity in terms that are only loosely related to reality.

"We are defending our people."

"We are seeking to liberate our people from oppression."

"We have a right to defend ourselves."
advertisement

"We want a ceasefire 
but they don't."

"We didn't blow up that school, they did."

"Okay, then, maybe we did blow up that school, but only because the terrorists were standing close to it when we fired shells at them."

The modern media has a deep belief in its own sophistication. Perhaps because of all the whizz-bang technology. Yet its naivety and its fear of offending the powerful compel it to retail the most obvious propaganda.

As long as we have a zealot from each side, we're balanced. Impartiality demands we allow both sides equal time in which to lie.

The history of land-stealing is a footnote, if mentioned at all. The function of Israel as a western outpost in the Middle East is complicated - it treads on too many toes. Besides, the zealots don't want to argue such matters.

Propaganda convinces few. But, it's not supposed to. It has two purposes. First, that of supplying your own supporters with talking points that stiffen their spines. Very necessary when the issue involves criminal slaughter.

That's why we hear the same arguments, using precisely the same phrases, being peddled endlessly, as supporters rehash the talking points right across the spectrum of TV, radio, newspapers, blogs and tweets. If propaganda convinces neutral observers that's a bonus, but it's primarily a spine-stiffening exercise for your own side.

Propaganda has a second, equally important, purpose. It fills the public arena with fake discourse - minor and irrelevant points that can be harmlessly argued while not interfering with the killing.

For instance - you can get hours of safe debate on the precise meaning of "targeting" civilians. And there's no end of shouting passionately to be enjoyed while disputing the finer points of why this ceasefire proposal wasn't acceptable or the precise sequence of events that led to some other initiative collapsing.

In these 24-hour rolling news days, there are vast gaps to fill. Spurious propaganda debates on secondary matters divert the media. Balanced propaganda neutralises the media. Especially when it's faced with things on which we should not be neutral.

And the media plays along. You're balanced as long as you get someone from each side, and allow them to take turns chewing the lies into ever-smaller pieces. Easy and safe.

Israel's cheerleaders tell us that Israel has "a right to defend itself". And Palestinian cheerleaders tell us that Hamas is firing rockets at Israeli civilians in an attempt to liberate their people from Israel's murderous blockade of Gaza.

Really?

In what sense do the Hamas rockets constitute an attack on Israeli oppression of Palestinians?

Hamas is to terrorism what Basil Fawlty is to hospitality. They shoot hundreds of rockets into Israel - thousands of rockets - and as of last Friday they'd killed two innocent Israelis.

Hamas could kill more Israelis by sending a dozen followers into Tel Aviv dressed in Halloween outfits, jumping out in front of elderly Israelis and shouting "Boo!"

If these rockets kill Israelis it's entirely by chance, and the victims will almost certainly be innocent civilians. And if the rockets don't kill many Israelis, what's the point of them? Well, they're an assertion by Hamas of its right and ability to take up arms against Israel.

The rockets - ineffectual though they are - affirm Hamas's status as the primary and foremost defender of their people. That is the sole purpose of the rocket barrage.

Hamas knows that this ineffectual posing will result in an Israeli campaign of murder in which innocents will die - but Hamas deems this to be an acceptable price for getting to assert its primacy.

And, in what sense is the Israeli onslaught on Gaza "defending" Israel? A state obviously has a right to defend its citizens from rocket attack. And the ability of the Israeli military to knock rockets out of the sky before they can do damage is indeed defending Israel.

The assault on Gaza is not. It may kill some Hamas members, perhaps knock out some paramilitary infrastructure. But that's a pinprick. And the murder of children lays down the seeds of the massacres of the future.

The primary function of the assault on Gaza is not to defend Israel but to ruthlessly demonstrate Israel's total domination of the area. Croppy lie down.

We don't target civilians, say the Israelis. And that's true, in that they don't have a policy of targeting children and other innocents.

What is beyond doubt is that Israel deliberately and knowingly kills children. In a crowded enclave such as Gaza it is not possible to assert your total military dominance without killing lots of children. When they lock their super-duper weapons onto a target, repeatedly there are children plainly in view. They know they are about to kill those children.

They go on to demonstrate their total dominance, in the full knowledge that children will be shredded by their weapons.

Meanwhile, their American patrons wring their hands and send John Kerry to whisper, "Please, you're embarrassing us - kill slightly fewer children, can't you?"

And into this moral swamp steps Charlie Flanagan, representing the ethical stance of the Government of the Republic of Ireland.

It's 27 years since Charlie was first elected to the Dail. He's waited a long time to serve as a minister. And while he's still trying to remember the names of the officials who tell him what's expected, a United Nations committee on human rights proposes to investigate whether Israeli actions constitute war crimes.

In the second paragraph above we referred to "the Irish Government's decision to abstain on a United Nations vote". In truth, there was no such decision. We are a client state. In fiscal matters we take our orders from Frankfurt. In economic policy we serve the needs of multi-national tax dodgers. In Foreign Affairs, oh, we can close or re-open the Vatican embassy for political effect. And we're welcome to stage all sorts of trade promotions on St Patrick's Day.

But child killing - that's grown-up stuff. We don't even have to ask Washington and Brussels how to vote. We know what's allowed.

The EU told us to explain it away by saying the resolution didn't equate Hamas's Basil Fawlty rockets with the deliberate slaughter of the innocent. The morality of the weighing scales. But, really, that's just the excuse.

It's not Charlie Flanagan's fault. At 57, he's learning that his job largely consists of endorsing decisions made elsewhere.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/we-have-no-opinion-on-mass-slaughter-30462142.html#sthash.kN3qsZ2U.dpuf
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: SHEEDY on July 27, 2014, 01:16:05 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28511075
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on July 27, 2014, 01:56:34 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 01:02:25 PM
We have no opinion on mass slaughter

We're truly sorry about the dead children, but we have other priorities in foreign affairs, writes Gene Kerrigan

Last week, Charlie had to stand over the Irish Government's decision to abstain on a United Nations vote on the Gaza slaughter. UN member states had a choice - intervene in the slaughter or stand idly by. Intervening by resolution mightn't achieve much, but there was a stark difference between voting for the resolution and not doing so.

It really doesn't matter how appalled and shocked we say we are about the deliberate slaughter of civilians. If we're asked to allow the UN to hold a formal inquiry and we shrug our shoulders we're saying, yeah, sorry about the dead kids - appalled, shocked - but we have other fish to fry.

As the slaughter continues, the Israelis and their enemies lay down ceaseless barrages of propaganda. Turn on a radio or TV and there's always some wide-eyed zealot from one side or the other speaking with intense sincerity in terms that are only loosely related to reality.

"We are defending our people."

"We are seeking to liberate our people from oppression."

"We have a right to defend ourselves."
advertisement

"We want a ceasefire 
but they don't."

"We didn't blow up that school, they did."

"Okay, then, maybe we did blow up that school, but only because the terrorists were standing close to it when we fired shells at them."

The modern media has a deep belief in its own sophistication. Perhaps because of all the whizz-bang technology. Yet its naivety and its fear of offending the powerful compel it to retail the most obvious propaganda.

As long as we have a zealot from each side, we're balanced. Impartiality demands we allow both sides equal time in which to lie.

The history of land-stealing is a footnote, if mentioned at all. The function of Israel as a western outpost in the Middle East is complicated - it treads on too many toes. Besides, the zealots don't want to argue such matters.

Propaganda convinces few. But, it's not supposed to. It has two purposes. First, that of supplying your own supporters with talking points that stiffen their spines. Very necessary when the issue involves criminal slaughter.

That's why we hear the same arguments, using precisely the same phrases, being peddled endlessly, as supporters rehash the talking points right across the spectrum of TV, radio, newspapers, blogs and tweets. If propaganda convinces neutral observers that's a bonus, but it's primarily a spine-stiffening exercise for your own side.

Propaganda has a second, equally important, purpose. It fills the public arena with fake discourse - minor and irrelevant points that can be harmlessly argued while not interfering with the killing.

For instance - you can get hours of safe debate on the precise meaning of "targeting" civilians. And there's no end of shouting passionately to be enjoyed while disputing the finer points of why this ceasefire proposal wasn't acceptable or the precise sequence of events that led to some other initiative collapsing.

In these 24-hour rolling news days, there are vast gaps to fill. Spurious propaganda debates on secondary matters divert the media. Balanced propaganda neutralises the media. Especially when it's faced with things on which we should not be neutral.

And the media plays along. You're balanced as long as you get someone from each side, and allow them to take turns chewing the lies into ever-smaller pieces. Easy and safe.

Israel's cheerleaders tell us that Israel has "a right to defend itself". And Palestinian cheerleaders tell us that Hamas is firing rockets at Israeli civilians in an attempt to liberate their people from Israel's murderous blockade of Gaza.

Really?

In what sense do the Hamas rockets constitute an attack on Israeli oppression of Palestinians?

Hamas is to terrorism what Basil Fawlty is to hospitality. They shoot hundreds of rockets into Israel - thousands of rockets - and as of last Friday they'd killed two innocent Israelis.

Hamas could kill more Israelis by sending a dozen followers into Tel Aviv dressed in Halloween outfits, jumping out in front of elderly Israelis and shouting "Boo!"

If these rockets kill Israelis it's entirely by chance, and the victims will almost certainly be innocent civilians. And if the rockets don't kill many Israelis, what's the point of them? Well, they're an assertion by Hamas of its right and ability to take up arms against Israel.

The rockets - ineffectual though they are - affirm Hamas's status as the primary and foremost defender of their people. That is the sole purpose of the rocket barrage.

Hamas knows that this ineffectual posing will result in an Israeli campaign of murder in which innocents will die - but Hamas deems this to be an acceptable price for getting to assert its primacy.

And, in what sense is the Israeli onslaught on Gaza "defending" Israel? A state obviously has a right to defend its citizens from rocket attack. And the ability of the Israeli military to knock rockets out of the sky before they can do damage is indeed defending Israel.

The assault on Gaza is not. It may kill some Hamas members, perhaps knock out some paramilitary infrastructure. But that's a pinprick. And the murder of children lays down the seeds of the massacres of the future.

The primary function of the assault on Gaza is not to defend Israel but to ruthlessly demonstrate Israel's total domination of the area. Croppy lie down.

We don't target civilians, say the Israelis. And that's true, in that they don't have a policy of targeting children and other innocents.

What is beyond doubt is that Israel deliberately and knowingly kills children. In a crowded enclave such as Gaza it is not possible to assert your total military dominance without killing lots of children. When they lock their super-duper weapons onto a target, repeatedly there are children plainly in view. They know they are about to kill those children.

They go on to demonstrate their total dominance, in the full knowledge that children will be shredded by their weapons.

Meanwhile, their American patrons wring their hands and send John Kerry to whisper, "Please, you're embarrassing us - kill slightly fewer children, can't you?"

And into this moral swamp steps Charlie Flanagan, representing the ethical stance of the Government of the Republic of Ireland.

It's 27 years since Charlie was first elected to the Dail. He's waited a long time to serve as a minister. And while he's still trying to remember the names of the officials who tell him what's expected, a United Nations committee on human rights proposes to investigate whether Israeli actions constitute war crimes.

In the second paragraph above we referred to "the Irish Government's decision to abstain on a United Nations vote". In truth, there was no such decision. We are a client state. In fiscal matters we take our orders from Frankfurt. In economic policy we serve the needs of multi-national tax dodgers. In Foreign Affairs, oh, we can close or re-open the Vatican embassy for political effect. And we're welcome to stage all sorts of trade promotions on St Patrick's Day.

But child killing - that's grown-up stuff. We don't even have to ask Washington and Brussels how to vote. We know what's allowed.

The EU told us to explain it away by saying the resolution didn't equate Hamas's Basil Fawlty rockets with the deliberate slaughter of the innocent. The morality of the weighing scales. But, really, that's just the excuse.

It's not Charlie Flanagan's fault. At 57, he's learning that his job largely consists of endorsing decisions made elsewhere.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/we-have-no-opinion-on-mass-slaughter-30462142.html#sthash.kN3qsZ2U.dpuf


Are you surprised. They stood idly by all when a minority where getting pasted on their doorstep. Cowards.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 27, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on July 26, 2014, 09:06:22 PM
BBC news ...Hamas reject truce and fire rockets into Israel. Any other updates?

Hamas are scum. No question, pure scumbags.

But the Israeili leadership manage to outdo them which is quite an achievement.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 06:48:46 PM
Have you seen Jon snow's interview about the last "rejected" ceasefire muppet??

Hard to know whether to take BBC story as accurate after that...
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 27, 2014, 07:08:18 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 06:48:46 PM
Have you seen Jon snow's interview about the last "rejected" ceasefire muppet??

Hard to know whether to take BBC story as accurate after that...

I saw the one where he starts by saying he is back in the studio. Is that it?

His reports are excellent btw and put his government to shame,
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:14:16 PM
It's the one where he is interviewing the Israeli government guy and really puts hard questions to him. He basically says to the guy they didn't talk to Hamas on first ceasefire and only talked to Egypt who were mediating and then didn't even talk to Hamas. There are various other hard hitting points too.

He's very pro Palestinian which is very rare in the media!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 27, 2014, 07:20:28 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:14:16 PM
It's the one where he is interviewing the Israeli government guy and really puts hard questions to him. He basically says to the guy they didn't talk to Hamas on first ceasefire and only talked to Egypt who were mediating and then didn't even talk to Hamas. There are various other hard hitting points too.

He's very pro Palestinian which is very rare in the media!

I didn't know that. However Hamas keeps firing the stupid rockets, even when Israel pauses the slaughter. There can be no question that the Hamas strategy is simply to get Israel to kill Palestinians. That Israel complies so enthusiastically is sickening, but imho they should all be done for war crimes.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:31:11 PM
Yep, don't disagree. Check out the snow interview on YouTube. He asks the guy some hard questions. Surprised he stayed for them to be honest.

The thing which annoys me is you wouldn't bloody know if what you're being fed is the truth. Channels like BBC very pro Israeli and then all the links here are all skewed the other way. Basically hard to trust what's in the media.

The ceasefire thing was quite shocking really as that's been their pr spin for Israel for a while- we offered a ceasefire so their fault. The three Israeli teenagers also seems to me to have been like an Iraq WMD story -I.e. We need an excuse here. I would imagine they knew it wasn't Hamas all along.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 27, 2014, 07:47:25 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:31:11 PM
Yep, don't disagree. Check out the snow interview on YouTube. He asks the guy some hard questions. Surprised he stayed for them to be honest.

The thing which annoys me is you wouldn't bloody know if what you're being fed is the truth. Channels like BBC very pro Israeli and then all the links here are all skewed the other way. Basically hard to trust what's in the media.

The ceasefire thing was quite shocking really as that's been their pr spin for Israel for a while- we offered a ceasefire so their fault. The three Israeli teenagers also seems to me to have been like an Iraq WMD story -I.e. We need an excuse here. I would imagine they knew it wasn't Hamas all along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_-76H-YRjs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_-76H-YRjs)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 08:03:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 27, 2014, 07:20:28 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:14:16 PM
It's the one where he is interviewing the Israeli government guy and really puts hard questions to him. He basically says to the guy they didn't talk to Hamas on first ceasefire and only talked to Egypt who were mediating and then didn't even talk to Hamas. There are various other hard hitting points too.

He's very pro Palestinian which is very rare in the media!

I didn't know that. However Hamas keeps firing the stupid rockets, even when Israel pauses the slaughter. There can be no question that the Hamas strategy is simply to get Israel to kill Palestinians. That Israel complies so enthusiastically is sickening, but imho they should all be done for war crimes.

If you didn't talk about rockets you would have very little to say. You are like Mark Regev.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 27, 2014, 08:04:40 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:14:16 PM
It's the one where he is interviewing the Israeli government guy and really puts hard questions to him. He basically says to the guy they didn't talk to Hamas on first ceasefire and only talked to Egypt who were mediating and then didn't even talk to Hamas. There are various other hard hitting points too.

He's very pro Palestinian which is very rare in the media!

I don't actually think he is being pro Palestinian so much as challenging Regev's bullshit, i.e. doing his job.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on July 27, 2014, 08:57:19 PM
At least now people with a unionist mindset in this part of the world will know that to think what Israel is doing abhorrent does not make you a republican.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28512058 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28512058)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 27, 2014, 09:13:32 PM

What is the stance taken on Hamas by Pro Palestinian protesters who who take part in demonstration marches? Claire Daly etc..
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 09:18:19 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 27, 2014, 08:57:19 PM
At least now people with a unionist mindset in this part of the world will know that to think what Israel is doing abhorrent does not make you a republican.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28512058 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28512058)

Well said John.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: SHEEDY on July 27, 2014, 09:26:03 PM
Joey barton taking alot of stick on twitter for his criticism of israel. Fair play to him for having the courage to speak out.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 27, 2014, 10:09:59 PM
Regev getting a hard time here. He is hard to listen to, I've always found the Australian accent a bit grating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRfNRQblXbs
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on July 27, 2014, 11:15:19 PM
Saw this comment on social media which sums it up for me.

"It doesn't matter how it started. It doesn't matter who did what to spark this pointless blood bath. Hundreds of dead children say that Israel is in the wrong! If your enemy is using an innocent child as a human shield, you don't throw a f*cking grenade at them."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2014, 11:20:02 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/26/israel-palestine-middle-east-uprisings-conflict

"If the durability and legitimacy of the post-First World War regional system is up for grabs, both the Israelis and the Americans will be hard pressed to contain Palestinian resistance to Israel for another decade in the name of a moribund depiction of regional stability. The Palestinians represent but one of several communities in the region for whom a remaking of the 20th-century regional order may not be unwelcome. However, their main defenders in the region are more anti-Israel than they are pro-Palestinian and if Israel and its friends want to stem the trend toward Islamist extremism in the region they would do well to find a resolution of the Palestinian problem through a two-state solution th
an leave it to fate."

MJ (Mike) Rosenberg @MJayRosenberg     ·   3h   

Some people say I don't know what anti-semitism is. I do and Israel's actions in Gaza is actually an anti-semitism machine.


Elizabeth Tsurkov @Elizrael     ·   3h   

New Channel 10 poll: 87% of Israelis support continuing the operation in Gaza, 7% support a cease-fire

Caption on Israeli Channel 10: "Up next, the greatest moments of Protective Edge on TV"

Additional chants from last night: "Gaza is a cemetery", "This is the Land of Israel, the country of Jews" http://bit.ly/1rM7Prj

WATCH: Israeli racists sing last night "School is out in Gaza/ They have no children left there" http://bit.ly/1rM7Prj  (starting 00:46)

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2014, 11:24:38 PM
http://blogs.ft.com/the-world/2014/07/israel-loses-control-in-gaza/

Israel loses control in Gaza

Gideon Rachman    |  Jul 25 10:48  |  Comment  |  Share   


Israel set itself clear goals when it launched its assault on Gaza. Stop the rocket fire into Israel and close the tunnels that might allow Hamas to infiltrate fighters into Israel. Some 18 days into the offensive, and these goals have not yet been achieved. But that is not the only sign that Israel's Gaza offensive is going wrong. On the contrary, there are multiple signs that Israel is losing control of the situation:

1. After a slow start, international outrage about the Gaza offensive is building. The international reaction had been relatively muted – perhaps because there are so many other competing horrors in the Middle East. (Some 700 people were killed in just two days fighting in Syria, last week.) As my colleague Roula Khalaf points out, Hamas has also lost crucial political support across the Arab world. The coincidence of the Gaza and Ukraine crises also probably took the pressure off Israel, briefly. But the shelling of the UN school in Gaza yesterday may mark some form of tipping point – with much stronger statements coming from the UN Secretary-General and Gaza dominating the headlines in Europe.

2. Unrest has spread to the West Bank. If the riots last night are repeated, then Israel risks facing a third intifada. The Gazan offensive will then have comprehensively back-fired, by ending a prolonged period of relative calm enjoyed by Israel.

3. The revival of Hamas: At the start of the Gaza offensive, Hamas was in an extremely weak position. It had lost vital support from Egypt and Iran, and enjoyed little sympathy in the west. But by successfully prolonging the fight with Israel – and even briefly all-but closing Ben Gurion airport – Hamas has chalked up some important propaganda victories. If it can get some sort of lifting of the Gaza blockade agreed – as part of the cease-fire negotiations – it will certainly be able to claim some sort of victory.

4. Israeli military casualties – while small compared to the toll of Palestinian deaths – are still shocking to the Israeli public. This is a small country with a civilian army.

If the Israeli government accepts a ceasefire, without achieving its goals and stopping the rockets, it will face a fierce domestic backlash. But the longer the fighting continues, the more the international backlash against Israel will grow – and the greater the chance that Israel will face a Palestinian uprising on the West Bank.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2014, 11:34:52 PM
http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/impact-social-media-israelgaza-conflict/1182
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on July 28, 2014, 12:14:13 AM
What is your stance on Hamas Seafoid?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 28, 2014, 12:31:11 AM
How many Israelis have been killed in this latest bout of the conflict?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on July 28, 2014, 12:14:13 AM
What is your stance on Hamas Seafoid?
Same as Brzezinski's . They came in from the cold when they joined the PLO in the PNA in april and it was extremely shortsighted of Israel to decide to destroy them.
It's a self determination struggle and Israel is losing.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 12:36:22 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 28, 2014, 12:31:11 AM
How many Israelis have been killed in this latest bout of the conflict?
2 civilians and 40 declared soldiers but it's probably more like 60.
Israelis are ultra sensitive about dead soldiers. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on July 28, 2014, 02:07:24 AM
See St Galls in Belfast are displaying a Palestinian flag in their club. Presume in solitary and support.  Pic on their Facebook.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Hound on July 28, 2014, 08:59:24 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 27, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on July 26, 2014, 09:06:22 PM
BBC news ...Hamas reject truce and fire rockets into Israel. Any other updates?

Hamas are scum. No question, pure scumbags.

But the Israeili leadership manage to outdo them which is quite an achievement.
Only outdoing them because of opportunity. If borders were open Hamas would be sending suicide bombers into Jewish schools and shopping malls. Hamas place no value on human life. Israel place no value on Palestinian lives. Result equals war crimes and horrendous atrocities.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 09:05:58 AM
Quote from: Hound on July 28, 2014, 08:59:24 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 27, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on July 26, 2014, 09:06:22 PM
BBC news ...Hamas reject truce and fire rockets into Israel. Any other updates?

Hamas are scum. No question, pure scumbags.

But the Israeili leadership manage to outdo them which is quite an achievement.
Only outdoing them because of opportunity. If borders were open Hamas would be sending suicide bombers into Jewish schools and shopping malls. Hamas place no value on human life. Israel place no value on Palestinian lives. Result equals war crimes and horrendous atrocities.
Saying Hamas are scum is a waste of time. They joined the PLO in the PA Administration in april as a sign they wanted to be involved in the political side of things and Israel decided to crush them. 


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/28/gaza-crisis-un-security-council-statement-urges-longer-truce
Khaled Mishal, Hamas's leader in exile, told PBS that Israel must end its occupation. "We are not fanatics. We are not fundamentalists. We are not actually fighting the Jews because they are Jews per se. We do not fight any other races. We fight the occupiers," he said.


And dehumanising Gaza is what Israel is all about

http://humanizepalestine.com
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 09:57:42 AM
Yes, but Hamas has said, or I am very wrong, that it's aim is the destruction of the state of Israel. That's a fairly hard core position to be coming from , and not a viewpoint that's likely to encourage a sane response from Israel.

A two state solution should be the only solution, under the boundaries drawn up by the UN in 1967. And this needs to be policed by the UN. If Hamas then try to pursue a 'Moslem State' and 'obliterate Israel' (From their covenant of Hamas) then Hamas deserves to be hammered by an international force.

If Israel attempts to again illegally settle, or attack, the Palestinian State, they too should expect military response from the international community. If ever there was a raison d'etre for the blue helmeted UN peacekeepers, Israel / Palestine is it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: doodaa on July 28, 2014, 10:42:28 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 09:57:42 AM
Yes, but Hamas has said, or I am very wrong, that it's aim is the destruction of the state of Israel. That's a fairly hard core position to be coming from , and not a viewpoint that's likely to encourage a sane response from Israel.

A two state solution should be the only solution, under the boundaries drawn up by the UN in 1967. And this needs to be policed by the UN. If Hamas then try to pursue a 'Moslem State' and 'obliterate Israel' (From their covenant of Hamas) then Hamas deserves to be hammered by an international force.

If Israel attempts to again illegally settle, or attack, the Palestinian State, they too should expect military response from the international community. If ever there was a raison d'etre for the blue helmeted UN peacekeepers, Israel / Palestine is it.

Could it be a case of "shooting for the stars to land on the moon" ie "we say we want to obliterate Israel, but really we would settle for the 2 state solution provided we get our land back?"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 10:45:41 AM
Might be, but if that's in your covenant, it's a hard sell to say come sit down with us. We had to reword Article 2&3 in the constitution as part of the Belfast Agreement so I'd imagine Hamas will have to move in some way that direction to have any hope of Israel not behaving like cornered animals.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 09:57:42 AM
Yes, but Hamas has said, or I am very wrong, that it's aim is the destruction of the state of Israel. That's a fairly hard core position to be coming from , and not a viewpoint that's likely to encourage a sane response from Israel.

A two state solution should be the only solution, under the boundaries drawn up by the UN in 1967. And this needs to be policed by the UN. If Hamas then try to pursue a 'Moslem State' and 'obliterate Israel' (From their covenant of Hamas) then Hamas deserves to be hammered by an international force.
f Israel attempts to again illegally settle, or attack, the Palestinian State, they too should expect military response from the international community. If ever there was a raison d'etre for the blue helmeted UN peacekeepers, Israel / Palestine is it.
They have said they will work towards 2 states but they won't recognize Israel as the Jewish state because they don't want to shaft the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. Israel's long term goal is ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
Israel/Palestine is in effect one state with Jews running everything.
I don't know who is going to evict the settlers from the West Bank.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 10:45:41 AM
Might be, but if that's in your covenant, it's a hard sell to say come sit down with us. We had to reword Article 2&3 in the constitution as part of the Belfast Agreement so I'd imagine Hamas will have to move in some way that direction to have any hope of Israel not behaving like cornered animals.
I'm sure they would look at the covenant as part of a post siege process. Israel is trying to beat them into submission and it isn't working. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 10:49:04 AM
UN has to do that seafoid. It has to be. If the Palestinians are amenable to a two state solution, but one of them is not Israel, what does that really mean? A new makey up state called something else, but still run by erstwhile Israelis? What's the difference there?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 10:50:39 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 10:45:41 AM
Might be, but if that's in your covenant, it's a hard sell to say come sit down with us. We had to reword Article 2&3 in the constitution as part of the Belfast Agreement so I'd imagine Hamas will have to move in some way that direction to have any hope of Israel not behaving like cornered animals.
I'm sure they would look at the covenant as part of a post siege process. Israel is trying to beat them into submission and it isn't working.

Agree, but as soon as this crisis is lifted, I mean the immediate war crimes ongoing, this has to be the way forward. A UN led dive straight into a two state solution, with Hamas recognising Israel c1967, and Israel recognising Palestine c1967. That's international law and has to be the basis for a real settlement.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Hereiam on July 28, 2014, 10:53:48 AM
It is clear to see on any map. The Israelis want the complete sea front and Gaza is in its way. There will be only one outcome.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 10:56:35 AM
But they have a huge sea frontage already no?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 11:15:46 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on July 28, 2014, 10:53:48 AM
It is clear to see on any map. The Israelis want the complete sea front and Gaza is in its way. There will be only one outcome.
They have Gaza under siege because of the gas offshore. They want everything.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 12:46:58 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on July 28, 2014, 10:53:48 AM
It is clear to see on any map. The Israelis want the complete sea front and Gaza is in its way. There will be only one outcome.

Yeah, that's why they withdrew from Gaza in 2005. A very cunning plan indeed. Lets withdraw, allow Hamas to build up its strength and then in 10 years or so we'll go back and secure the gas again.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 01:06:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 12:46:58 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on July 28, 2014, 10:53:48 AM
It is clear to see on any map. The Israelis want the complete sea front and Gaza is in its way. There will be only one outcome.

Yeah, that's why they withdrew from Gaza in 2005. A very cunning plan indeed. Lets withdraw, allow Hamas to build up its strength and then in 10 years or so we'll go back and secure the gas again.
Gaza is still occupied. the Israelis took out the settlers but they maintained the occupation.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/top-pm-aide-gaza-plan-aims-to-freeze-the-peace-process-1.136686

The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser Dov Weisglass has told Haaretz.

"And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

Weisglass, who was one of the initiators of the disengagement plan, was speaking in an interview with Haaretz for the Friday Magazine.

"The disengagement is actually formaldehyde," he said. "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

Asked why the disengagement plan had been hatched, Weisglass replied: "Because in the fall of 2003 we understood that everything was stuck. And although by the way the Americans read the situation, the blame fell on the Palestinians, not on us, Arik [Sharon] grasped that this state of affairs could not last, that they wouldn't leave us alone, wouldn't get off our case. Time was not on our side. There was international erosion, internal erosion. Domestically, in the meantime, everything was collapsing. The economy was stagnant, and the Geneva Initiative had gained broad support. And then we were hit with the letters of officers and letters of pilots and letters of commandos [refusing to serve in the territories]. These were not weird kids with green ponytails and a ring in their nose with a strong odor of grass. These were people like Spector's group [Yiftah Spector, a renowned Air Force pilot who signed the pilot's letter]. Really our finest young people."

Weisglass does not deny that the main achievement of the Gaza plan is the freezing of the peace process in a "legitimate manner."

"That is exactly what happened," he said. "You know, the term `peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."

Sharon, he said, could also argue "honestly" that the disengagement plan was "a serious move because of which, out of 240,000 settlers, 190,000 will not be moved from their place."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 28, 2014, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 01:02:25 PM
We have no opinion on mass slaughter

We're truly sorry about the dead children, but we have other priorities in foreign affairs, writes Gene Kerrigan

Last week, Charlie had to stand over the Irish Government's decision to abstain on a United Nations vote on the Gaza slaughter. UN member states had a choice - intervene in the slaughter or stand idly by. Intervening by resolution mightn't achieve much, but there was a stark difference between voting for the resolution and not doing so.

It really doesn't matter how appalled and shocked we say we are about the deliberate slaughter of civilians. If we're asked to allow the UN to hold a formal inquiry and we shrug our shoulders we're saying, yeah, sorry about the dead kids - appalled, shocked - but we have other fish to fry.

As the slaughter continues, the Israelis and their enemies lay down ceaseless barrages of propaganda. Turn on a radio or TV and there's always some wide-eyed zealot from one side or the other speaking with intense sincerity in terms that are only loosely related to reality.

"We are defending our people."

"We are seeking to liberate our people from oppression."

"We have a right to defend ourselves."
advertisement

"We want a ceasefire 
but they don't."

"We didn't blow up that school, they did."

"Okay, then, maybe we did blow up that school, but only because the terrorists were standing close to it when we fired shells at them."

The modern media has a deep belief in its own sophistication. Perhaps because of all the whizz-bang technology. Yet its naivety and its fear of offending the powerful compel it to retail the most obvious propaganda.

As long as we have a zealot from each side, we're balanced. Impartiality demands we allow both sides equal time in which to lie.

The history of land-stealing is a footnote, if mentioned at all. The function of Israel as a western outpost in the Middle East is complicated - it treads on too many toes. Besides, the zealots don't want to argue such matters.

Propaganda convinces few. But, it's not supposed to. It has two purposes. First, that of supplying your own supporters with talking points that stiffen their spines. Very necessary when the issue involves criminal slaughter.

That's why we hear the same arguments, using precisely the same phrases, being peddled endlessly, as supporters rehash the talking points right across the spectrum of TV, radio, newspapers, blogs and tweets. If propaganda convinces neutral observers that's a bonus, but it's primarily a spine-stiffening exercise for your own side.

Propaganda has a second, equally important, purpose. It fills the public arena with fake discourse - minor and irrelevant points that can be harmlessly argued while not interfering with the killing.

For instance - you can get hours of safe debate on the precise meaning of "targeting" civilians. And there's no end of shouting passionately to be enjoyed while disputing the finer points of why this ceasefire proposal wasn't acceptable or the precise sequence of events that led to some other initiative collapsing.

In these 24-hour rolling news days, there are vast gaps to fill. Spurious propaganda debates on secondary matters divert the media. Balanced propaganda neutralises the media. Especially when it's faced with things on which we should not be neutral.

And the media plays along. You're balanced as long as you get someone from each side, and allow them to take turns chewing the lies into ever-smaller pieces. Easy and safe.

Israel's cheerleaders tell us that Israel has "a right to defend itself". And Palestinian cheerleaders tell us that Hamas is firing rockets at Israeli civilians in an attempt to liberate their people from Israel's murderous blockade of Gaza.

Really?

In what sense do the Hamas rockets constitute an attack on Israeli oppression of Palestinians?

Hamas is to terrorism what Basil Fawlty is to hospitality. They shoot hundreds of rockets into Israel - thousands of rockets - and as of last Friday they'd killed two innocent Israelis.

Hamas could kill more Israelis by sending a dozen followers into Tel Aviv dressed in Halloween outfits, jumping out in front of elderly Israelis and shouting "Boo!"

If these rockets kill Israelis it's entirely by chance, and the victims will almost certainly be innocent civilians. And if the rockets don't kill many Israelis, what's the point of them? Well, they're an assertion by Hamas of its right and ability to take up arms against Israel.

The rockets - ineffectual though they are - affirm Hamas's status as the primary and foremost defender of their people. That is the sole purpose of the rocket barrage.

Hamas knows that this ineffectual posing will result in an Israeli campaign of murder in which innocents will die - but Hamas deems this to be an acceptable price for getting to assert its primacy.

And, in what sense is the Israeli onslaught on Gaza "defending" Israel? A state obviously has a right to defend its citizens from rocket attack. And the ability of the Israeli military to knock rockets out of the sky before they can do damage is indeed defending Israel.

The assault on Gaza is not. It may kill some Hamas members, perhaps knock out some paramilitary infrastructure. But that's a pinprick. And the murder of children lays down the seeds of the massacres of the future.

The primary function of the assault on Gaza is not to defend Israel but to ruthlessly demonstrate Israel's total domination of the area. Croppy lie down.

We don't target civilians, say the Israelis. And that's true, in that they don't have a policy of targeting children and other innocents.

What is beyond doubt is that Israel deliberately and knowingly kills children. In a crowded enclave such as Gaza it is not possible to assert your total military dominance without killing lots of children. When they lock their super-duper weapons onto a target, repeatedly there are children plainly in view. They know they are about to kill those children.

They go on to demonstrate their total dominance, in the full knowledge that children will be shredded by their weapons.

Meanwhile, their American patrons wring their hands and send John Kerry to whisper, "Please, you're embarrassing us - kill slightly fewer children, can't you?"

And into this moral swamp steps Charlie Flanagan, representing the ethical stance of the Government of the Republic of Ireland.

It's 27 years since Charlie was first elected to the Dail. He's waited a long time to serve as a minister. And while he's still trying to remember the names of the officials who tell him what's expected, a United Nations committee on human rights proposes to investigate whether Israeli actions constitute war crimes.

In the second paragraph above we referred to "the Irish Government's decision to abstain on a United Nations vote". In truth, there was no such decision. We are a client state. In fiscal matters we take our orders from Frankfurt. In economic policy we serve the needs of multi-national tax dodgers. In Foreign Affairs, oh, we can close or re-open the Vatican embassy for political effect. And we're welcome to stage all sorts of trade promotions on St Patrick's Day.

But child killing - that's grown-up stuff. We don't even have to ask Washington and Brussels how to vote. We know what's allowed.

The EU told us to explain it away by saying the resolution didn't equate Hamas's Basil Fawlty rockets with the deliberate slaughter of the innocent. The morality of the weighing scales. But, really, that's just the excuse.

It's not Charlie Flanagan's fault. At 57, he's learning that his job largely consists of endorsing decisions made elsewhere.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/we-have-no-opinion-on-mass-slaughter-30462142.html#sthash.kN3qsZ2U.dpuf

A surprisingly good article from the Indo!! Would agree with pretty much all of that. Ireland's abstention was a disgrace
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 28, 2014, 02:38:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 27, 2014, 07:20:28 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:14:16 PM
It's the one where he is interviewing the Israeli government guy and really puts hard questions to him. He basically says to the guy they didn't talk to Hamas on first ceasefire and only talked to Egypt who were mediating and then didn't even talk to Hamas. There are various other hard hitting points too.

He's very pro Palestinian which is very rare in the media!

I didn't know that. However Hamas keeps firing the stupid rockets, even when Israel pauses the slaughter. There can be no question that the Hamas strategy is simply to get Israel to kill Palestinians. That Israel complies so enthusiastically is sickening, but imho they should all be done for war crimes.

My understanding of the offer of a ceasefire was to stop the shelling but for Israeli soldiers to continue searching for the tunnels, etc. So not exactly a straight up ceasefire and perhaps offered knowing that it wouldn't be accepted??

The sooner they can agree a proper ceasefire the better, life must be terrible in gaza
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 28, 2014, 02:49:20 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 28, 2014, 02:38:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 27, 2014, 07:20:28 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:14:16 PM
It's the one where he is interviewing the Israeli government guy and really puts hard questions to him. He basically says to the guy they didn't talk to Hamas on first ceasefire and only talked to Egypt who were mediating and then didn't even talk to Hamas. There are various other hard hitting points too.

He's very pro Palestinian which is very rare in the media!

I didn't know that. However Hamas keeps firing the stupid rockets, even when Israel pauses the slaughter. There can be no question that the Hamas strategy is simply to get Israel to kill Palestinians. That Israel complies so enthusiastically is sickening, but imho they should all be done for war crimes.

My understanding of the offer of a ceasefire was to stop the shelling but for Israeli soldiers to continue searching for the tunnels, etc. So not exactly a straight up ceasefire and perhaps offered knowing that it wouldn't be accepted??

The sooner they can agree a proper ceasefire the better, life must be terrible in gaza

You wouldn't bloody know macdanger as in this whole situation it seems you can't rely on what the media are telling you at all.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 28, 2014, 03:15:22 PM
True enough, it's hard to tell fact from spin
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 03:40:35 PM
Breaking‬| 12 children have been killed and 50 injured after targeting Al Shifa hospital in Gaza
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: maddog on July 28, 2014, 03:50:19 PM
There can be no excuse for this any longer. Israel is a disgrace. As are the western powers that are turning a blind eye.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 03:54:02 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 03:40:35 PM
Breaking‬| 12 children have been killed and 50 injured after targeting Al Shifa hospital in Gaza
I think that makes 16 hospitals/old people homes/clinics/ambulance targeted
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on July 28, 2014, 03:58:23 PM
holy fcuk...unbelievable, yet sadly now, all too believable
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 28, 2014, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 27, 2014, 08:03:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 27, 2014, 07:20:28 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 27, 2014, 07:14:16 PM
It's the one where he is interviewing the Israeli government guy and really puts hard questions to him. He basically says to the guy they didn't talk to Hamas on first ceasefire and only talked to Egypt who were mediating and then didn't even talk to Hamas. There are various other hard hitting points too.

He's very pro Palestinian which is very rare in the media!

I didn't know that. However Hamas keeps firing the stupid rockets, even when Israel pauses the slaughter. There can be no question that the Hamas strategy is simply to get Israel to kill Palestinians. That Israel complies so enthusiastically is sickening, but imho they should all be done for war crimes.

If you didn't talk about rockets you would have very little to say. You are like Mark Regev.

You are completely nuts. I have castigated Israel time and time again.

You seem to think we should ignore the rockets or file them under 'sure what else can they do'.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:41:52 PM
NBC Journalist was at the hospital and witnessed the attack. click on the link for his report

Strikes Near Gaza's Shifa Hospital, Refugee Camp Kill or Hurt 30

Israeli strikes hit within yards of Gaza's main hospital as well as at a refugee camp on Monday, leaving at least 30 dead and wounded.

The explosion near Shifa Hospital around 5 p.m. local time (10 a.m. ET) caused some damage to the outpatient clinic, according to witnesses including an NBC News crew on the ground in the area. There was no immediate confirmation of deaths or injuries.

Another strike occurred at the Al-Shati refugee camp in northern Gaza. At least 30 dead and wounded were brought to Shifa Hospital in ambulances, civilian cars and on motorcycles. A NBC News team in the area said the strikes were in "close succession."

The Israel Defense Forces told Haaretz that a "preliminary investigation has found the Israeli army did not fire at the Shifa Hospital, and the fire is believed to have been Hamas." The IDF could not immediately be reached to clarify that account on Monday. However, a NBC News journalist witnessed the attack on the hospital and said it had been fired by an Israeli drone.

Israel has been criticized for several strikes which hit hospitals in the Gaza Strip during its recent offensive.

Last week, charity Medecins Sans Frontieres said health workers in Gaza were coming under fire and urged Israel to stop its strikes.

The United Nations also Israel may have committed war crimes by shelling hospitals and civilian houses where it claims Hamas is hiding personnel and rockets.

Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza have been locked in three weeks of fighting which have killed 1,049 people in Gaza, mostly civilians. Some 43 Israeli soldiers have died along with three civilians killed by projectiles within Israeli.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/strikes-near-gazas-shifa-hospital-refugee-camp-kill-or-hurt-n166571
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 04:45:01 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:41:52 PM
NBC Journalist was at the hospital and witnessed the attack. click on the link for his report

Strikes Near Gaza's Shifa Hospital, Refugee Camp Kill or Hurt 30

Israeli strikes hit within yards of Gaza's main hospital as well as at a refugee camp on Monday, leaving at least 30 dead and wounded.

The explosion near Shifa Hospital around 5 p.m. local time (10 a.m. ET) caused some damage to the outpatient clinic, according to witnesses including an NBC News crew on the ground in the area. There was no immediate confirmation of deaths or injuries.

Another strike occurred at the Al-Shati refugee camp in northern Gaza. At least 30 dead and wounded were brought to Shifa Hospital in ambulances, civilian cars and on motorcycles. A NBC News team in the area said the strikes were in "close succession."

The Israel Defense Forces told Haaretz that a "preliminary investigation has found the Israeli army did not fire at the Shifa Hospital, and the fire is believed to have been Hamas." The IDF could not immediately be reached to clarify that account on Monday. However, a NBC News journalist witnessed the attack on the hospital and said it had been fired by an Israeli drone.

Israel has been criticized for several strikes which hit hospitals in the Gaza Strip during its recent offensive.

Last week, charity Medecins Sans Frontieres said health workers in Gaza were coming under fire and urged Israel to stop its strikes.

The United Nations also Israel may have committed war crimes by shelling hospitals and civilian houses where it claims Hamas is hiding personnel and rockets.

Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza have been locked in three weeks of fighting which have killed 1,049 people in Gaza, mostly civilians. Some 43 Israeli soldiers have died along with three civilians killed by projectiles within Israeli.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/strikes-near-gazas-shifa-hospital-refugee-camp-kill-or-hurt-n166571
MJ Rosenberg calls this Gaza war an anti-Semitism machine.
It's not hard to see why.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
87% of Israeli's are fully behind this latest round of Genocide.

87% are behind this mass slaughter.

87% in favour of this barbaric killing tells you all you need to know about how sick those evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving bastards are.

They are not human.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 05:01:09 PM
Despite many eye witnesses saying the attacks were from Drones, this is what the IOF are saying

IDF ‏@IDFSpokesperson 3m

A short while ago, terrorists in Gaza fired rockets at Israel. 1 of them hit Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. The other hit Al-Shati refugee camp.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 05:07:54 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 05:01:09 PM
Despite many eye witnesses saying the attacks were from Drones, this is what the IOF are saying

IDF ‏@IDFSpokesperson 3m

A short while ago, terrorists in Gaza fired rockets at Israel. 1 of them hit Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. The other hit Al-Shati refugee camp.
They have to lie. There is no way they can sell the bombing of hospitals.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on July 28, 2014, 05:16:37 PM
What's the point of the UN if they can't intervene and get this stopped?
Might as well stop wasting money on funding them. Irish troops should be withdrawn from this (or is it too lucrative supplying soldiers for hire)

I still can't work out if israel can't see the parallels between what they are doing and what happened in the 1940's.
Time to stop complaining about that event now?



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 05:31:07 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/5jstHbd.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: HiMucker on July 28, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
87% of Israeli's are fully behind this latest round of Genocide.

87% are behind this mass slaughter.

87% in favour of this barbaric killing tells you all you need to know about how sick those evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards are.

They are not human.
Do you think 87% of Israelis are "sick evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving bastards"?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 06:34:25 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 28, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
87% of Israeli's are fully behind this latest round of Genocide.

87% are behind this mass slaughter.

87% in favour of this barbaric killing tells you all you need to know about how sick those evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards are.

They are not human.
Do you think 87% of Israelis are "sick evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards"?

Yes. The latest poll says 87% of them support this latest round of Genocide. They are baying for more blood right now.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: HiMucker on July 28, 2014, 06:54:49 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 06:34:25 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 28, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
87% of Israeli's are fully behind this latest round of Genocide.

87% are behind this mass slaughter.

87% in favour of this barbaric killing tells you all you need to know about how sick those evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards are.

They are not human.
Do you think 87% of Israelis are "sick evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards"?

Yes. The latest poll says 87% of them support this latest round of Genocide. They are baying for more blood right now.
But can you not see that sort of language is what leads to the dehumanising of the "enemy".  Something the Palestinian people are now suffering from.  The Israeli people are spoon fed mass propaganda that has forged their opinions and views.  "They are not human" Well unfortunately that's exactly what they are
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 28, 2014, 07:03:15 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
87% of Israeli's are fully behind this latest round of Genocide.

87% are behind this mass slaughter.

87% in favour of this barbaric killing tells you all you need to know about how sick those evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards are.

They are not human.
Who commissioned the poll?
What questions were asked of these non-humans?
Has there been a similar poll carried out in Gaza to find out what percentage are fully behind the ongoing fight back?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:06:29 PM
A survey conducted by Channel 10 news indicated that 87 percent of Israelis supported the continuation of Operation Protective Edge in Gaza while 69 percent were in favor of the complete overthrow of Hamas

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4550853,00.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:06:38 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 28, 2014, 06:54:49 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 06:34:25 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 28, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
87% of Israeli's are fully behind this latest round of Genocide.

87% are behind this mass slaughter.

87% in favour of this barbaric killing tells you all you need to know about how sick those evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards are.

They are not human.
Do you think 87% of Israelis are "sick evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards"?

Yes. The latest poll says 87% of them support this latest round of Genocide. They are baying for more blood right now.
But can you not see that sort of language is what leads to the dehumanising of the "enemy".  Something the Palestinian people are now suffering from.  The Israeli people are spoon fed mass propaganda that has forged their opinions and views.  "They are not human" Well unfortunately that's exactly what they are
Israelis are more brainwashed than anything else. Hebrew is the vector.
And Israeli society has very little empathy but loads of victimhood. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 07:11:10 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 28, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
87% of Israeli's are fully behind this latest round of Genocide.

87% are behind this mass slaughter.

87% in favour of this barbaric killing tells you all you need to know about how sick those evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards are.

They are not human.
Do you think 87% of Israelis are "sick evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards"?

Not human? Untermensch maybe?  The Israeli government controls Israeli media so it's no surprise that a poll would show stuff like that. I wonder what the percentage of Israelis who live out of Israel, and therefore are seeing more of the international reaction think.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 28, 2014, 07:15:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:06:29 PM
A survey conducted by Channel 10 news indicated that 87 percent of Israelis supported the continuation of Operation Protective Edge in Gaza while 69 percent were in favor of the complete overthrow of Hamas

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4550853,00.html

Cheers but that propaganda sheet makes the Daily Mail look socialist.
Elite IDF take on terrorist Hamas!
Palestinians are more scared of Hamas than Israel!

I would take their poll with a pinch of salt and continue yo believe more than 13% of Israelis are human.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 28, 2014, 07:15:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 28, 2014, 07:11:10 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 28, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
87% of Israeli's are fully behind this latest round of Genocide.

87% are behind this mass slaughter.

87% in favour of this barbaric killing tells you all you need to know about how sick those evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards are.

They are not human.
Do you think 87% of Israelis are "sick evil bloodthirsty land grabbing thieving b**tards"?

Not human? Untermensch maybe?  The Israeli government controls Israeli media so it's no surprise that a poll would show stuff like that. I wonder what the percentage of Israelis who live out of Israel, and therefore are seeing more of the international reaction think.

I suspect North Koreans might vote with an even higher percentage for Government policy.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:18:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxDYiBls99w
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:20:08 PM
Folks, you can believe me or not. I don't give a toss. All I know is that having followed the ongoing Genocide in Gaza for years now, I know what the mood of the vast vast majority of Israeli's is. They want the land, they want the Palestinians dead or removed, and they have the full support of the USA and the UN to do whatever the fcuk they like.

I have met more than my fair share of Israeli's while traveling to back that claim up.

This evening Israel said they are stepping this up another gear, and have promised a long night ahead.

This is going to be a bigger mess on top of a massive mess of death and destruction.

Think what you like, all I know is that we are dealing with deranged sub human monsters.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:21:27 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 28, 2014, 07:15:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:06:29 PM
A survey conducted by Channel 10 news indicated that 87 percent of Israelis supported the continuation of Operation Protective Edge in Gaza while 69 percent were in favor of the complete overthrow of Hamas

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4550853,00.html

Cheers but that propaganda sheet makes the Daily Mail look socialist.
Elite IDF take on terrorist Hamas!
Palestinians are more scared of Hamas than Israel!

I would take their poll with a pinch of salt and continue yo believe more than 13% of Israelis are human.

Read the article. It says "Channel 10" carried out the survey. Every media outlet across the world is publishing the results.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:23:02 PM
Click on this link for a group of Palestinians in Gaza who are currently tweeting about the increase in bombing and killing.

https://twitter.com/occpal/lists/gazaunderattack
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:25:41 PM
The Israeli military on Monday evening sent text messages and phone calls to residents of all cities in the northern Gaza Strip and parts of Gaza City telling them to evacuate their homes "immediately," potentially displacing more than 400,000 people.

The military said in a statement that it had told the residents of Shujaiyya and Zaitoun neighborhoods in northern and eastern Gaza City as well Jabaliya, Beit Hanoun, and Beit Lahiya cities in northern Gaza to evacuate their homes and leave for central Gaza City.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=716715
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:20:08 PM
Folks, you can believe me or not. I don't give a toss. All I know is that having followed the ongoing Genocide in Gaza for years now, I know what the mood of the vast vast majority of Israeli's is. They want the land, they want the Palestinians dead or removed, and they have the full support of the USA and the UN to do whatever the fcuk they like.

I have met more than my fair share of Israeli's while traveling to back that claim up.

This evening Israel said they are stepping this up another gear, and have promised a long night ahead.

This is going to be a bigger mess on top of a massive mess of death and destruction.

Think what you like, all I know is that we are dealing with deranged sub human monsters.

You are also a lying , Nazi-sympathizer so you'll forgive us for not paying too much attention to what you say.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:20:08 PM
Folks, you can believe me or not. I don't give a toss. All I know is that having followed the ongoing Genocide in Gaza for years now, I know what the mood of the vast vast majority of Israeli's is. They want the land, they want the Palestinians dead or removed, and they have the full support of the USA and the UN to do whatever the fcuk they like.

I have met more than my fair share of Israeli's while traveling to back that claim up.

This evening Israel said they are stepping this up another gear, and have promised a long night ahead.

This is going to be a bigger mess on top of a massive mess of death and destruction.

Think what you like, all I know is that we are dealing with deranged sub human monsters.

You are also a lying , Nazi-sympathizer so you'll forgive us for not paying too much attention to what you say.
Your nurse just rang from the ward. she wants to know where you are and says you didn't sign out and that you didn't drink your tea. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:20:08 PM
Folks, you can believe me or not. I don't give a toss. All I know is that having followed the ongoing Genocide in Gaza for years now, I know what the mood of the vast vast majority of Israeli's is. They want the land, they want the Palestinians dead or removed, and they have the full support of the USA and the UN to do whatever the fcuk they like.

I have met more than my fair share of Israeli's while traveling to back that claim up.

This evening Israel said they are stepping this up another gear, and have promised a long night ahead.

This is going to be a bigger mess on top of a massive mess of death and destruction.

Think what you like, all I know is that we are dealing with deranged sub human monsters.

You are also a lying , Nazi-sympathizer so you'll forgive us for not paying too much attention to what you say.
Your nurse just rang from the ward. she wants to know where you are and says you didn't sign out and that you didn't drink your tea.

That's the problem with you and GHD, Seafoid. Your race hatreds will always come to the surface eventually. Its why despite the worst onslaught in recent times by the Israelies that you have to spend time defending your fellow bigot as he rails against the "sub humans".

Like I said before, you anti-semites are the single worst thing that has happened to the Palestinian cause. You blow it every time.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:20:08 PM
Folks, you can believe me or not. I don't give a toss. All I know is that having followed the ongoing Genocide in Gaza for years now, I know what the mood of the vast vast majority of Israeli's is. They want the land, they want the Palestinians dead or removed, and they have the full support of the USA and the UN to do whatever the fcuk they like.

I have met more than my fair share of Israeli's while traveling to back that claim up.

This evening Israel said they are stepping this up another gear, and have promised a long night ahead.

This is going to be a bigger mess on top of a massive mess of death and destruction.

Think what you like, all I know is that we are dealing with deranged sub human monsters.

You are also a lying , Nazi-sympathizer so you'll forgive us for not paying too much attention to what you say.
Your nurse just rang from the ward. she wants to know where you are and says you didn't sign out and that you didn't drink your tea.

That's the problem with you and GHD, Seafoid. Your race hatreds will always come to the surface eventually. Its why despite the worst onslaught in recent times by the Israelies that you have to spend time defending your fellow bigot as he rails against the "sub humans".

Like I said before, you anti-semites are the single worst thing that has happened to the Palestinian cause. You blow it every time.
You do the same stuff  with Sidney, you throw all your toys out of the pram when someone pulls you up for the shite you continually do . With Sidney it's Liverpool, with me it's antisemitism and with GHD it's Nazism. You're like a dog with a horn. Get away from that table leg.



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:11:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:20:08 PM
Folks, you can believe me or not. I don't give a toss. All I know is that having followed the ongoing Genocide in Gaza for years now, I know what the mood of the vast vast majority of Israeli's is. They want the land, they want the Palestinians dead or removed, and they have the full support of the USA and the UN to do whatever the fcuk they like.

I have met more than my fair share of Israeli's while traveling to back that claim up.

This evening Israel said they are stepping this up another gear, and have promised a long night ahead.

This is going to be a bigger mess on top of a massive mess of death and destruction.

Think what you like, all I know is that we are dealing with deranged sub human monsters.

You are also a lying , Nazi-sympathizer so you'll forgive us for not paying too much attention to what you say.
Your nurse just rang from the ward. she wants to know where you are and says you didn't sign out and that you didn't drink your tea.

That's the problem with you and GHD, Seafoid. Your race hatreds will always come to the surface eventually. Its why despite the worst onslaught in recent times by the Israelies that you have to spend time defending your fellow bigot as he rails against the "sub humans".

Like I said before, you anti-semites are the single worst thing that has happened to the Palestinian cause. You blow it every time.
You do the same stuff  with Sidney, you throw all your toys out of the pram when someone pulls you up for the shite you continually do . With Sidney it's Liverpool, with me it's antisemitism and with GHD it's Nazism. You're like a dog with a horn. Get away from that table leg.

Nah, the thing with Sidney was just a minor spat. With you and GHD its the real deal. I find both of you truly repugnant. You are bigots posing as defenders of human rights. You feign outrage but this latest escalation is everything you could hope for. The two of you have been acting like social media stormtroopers for the last couple of weeks feeding off the misery and stoking the fires of bigotry.

The thing is Seafoid, the state of Israel would not exist if were not for the likes of you and GHD with your attempts to eliminate the "sub humans" , as GHD calls them. It simply would not be there. Palestine would be one state controlled by Palestinians. Instead idiots like you had to pursue that ancient, irrational hatred to the ultimate denouement in WWII that has led to the present situation.

That should keep you awake at night Seafoid. The whole mess is down to you and your ilk.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
... you anti-semites ...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the get-out-of-jail card that the Israelis use every time to justify their genocidal maniacal tendencies and get away with mass murder.

Criticize the policies of the Israeli government? You sound like Adolf!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
... you anti-semites ...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the get-out-of-jail card that the Israelis use every time to justify their genocidal maniacal tendencies and get away with mass murder.

Criticize the policies of the Israeli government? You sound like Adolf!

No. I abhor the policies of the Israeli government. I equally abhor people who characterize others as sub-human.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 08:16:22 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:11:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:20:08 PM
Folks, you can believe me or not. I don't give a toss. All I know is that having followed the ongoing Genocide in Gaza for years now, I know what the mood of the vast vast majority of Israeli's is. They want the land, they want the Palestinians dead or removed, and they have the full support of the USA and the UN to do whatever the fcuk they like.

I have met more than my fair share of Israeli's while traveling to back that claim up.

This evening Israel said they are stepping this up another gear, and have promised a long night ahead.

This is going to be a bigger mess on top of a massive mess of death and destruction.

Think what you like, all I know is that we are dealing with deranged sub human monsters.

You are also a lying , Nazi-sympathizer so you'll forgive us for not paying too much attention to what you say.
Your nurse just rang from the ward. she wants to know where you are and says you didn't sign out and that you didn't drink your tea.

That's the problem with you and GHD, Seafoid. Your race hatreds will always come to the surface eventually. Its why despite the worst onslaught in recent times by the Israelies that you have to spend time defending your fellow bigot as he rails against the "sub humans".

Like I said before, you anti-semites are the single worst thing that has happened to the Palestinian cause. You blow it every time.
You do the same stuff  with Sidney, you throw all your toys out of the pram when someone pulls you up for the shite you continually do . With Sidney it's Liverpool, with me it's antisemitism and with GHD it's Nazism. You're like a dog with a horn. Get away from that table leg.

Nah, the thing with Sidney was just a minor spat. With you and GHD its the real deal. I find both of you truly repugnant. You are bigots posing as defenders of human rights. You feign outrage but this latest escalation is everything you could hope for. The two of you have been acting like social media stormtroopers for the last couple of weeks feeding off the misery and stoking the fires of bigotry.

The thing is Seafoid, the state of Israel would not exist if were not for the likes of you and GHD with your attempts to eliminate the "sub humans" , as GHD calls them. It simply would not be there. Palestine would be one state controlled by Palestinians. Instead idiots like you had to pursue that ancient, irrational hatred to the ultimate denouement in WWII that has led to the present situation.

That should keep you awake at night Seafoid. The whole mess is down to you and your ilk.
It's the same crap with everyone. You have online Aspergers syndrome
You should go back to hospital. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
... you anti-semites ...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the get-out-of-jail card that the Israelis use every time to justify their genocidal maniacal tendencies and get away with mass murder.

Criticize the policies of the Israeli government? You sound like Adolf!

No. I abhor the policies of the Israeli government. I equally abhor people who characterize others as sub-human.
So why don't you condemn the people of Israel for standing foursquare behind butcher Netanyahu ? You are incoherent .
Is it right that Jewish gangs are roaming Jerusalem beating up Palestinians ? Is that my fault as well ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 08:16:22 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:11:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 07:20:08 PM
Folks, you can believe me or not. I don't give a toss. All I know is that having followed the ongoing Genocide in Gaza for years now, I know what the mood of the vast vast majority of Israeli's is. They want the land, they want the Palestinians dead or removed, and they have the full support of the USA and the UN to do whatever the fcuk they like.

I have met more than my fair share of Israeli's while traveling to back that claim up.

This evening Israel said they are stepping this up another gear, and have promised a long night ahead.

This is going to be a bigger mess on top of a massive mess of death and destruction.

Think what you like, all I know is that we are dealing with deranged sub human monsters.

You are also a lying , Nazi-sympathizer so you'll forgive us for not paying too much attention to what you say.
Your nurse just rang from the ward. she wants to know where you are and says you didn't sign out and that you didn't drink your tea.

That's the problem with you and GHD, Seafoid. Your race hatreds will always come to the surface eventually. Its why despite the worst onslaught in recent times by the Israelies that you have to spend time defending your fellow bigot as he rails against the "sub humans".

Like I said before, you anti-semites are the single worst thing that has happened to the Palestinian cause. You blow it every time.
You do the same stuff  with Sidney, you throw all your toys out of the pram when someone pulls you up for the shite you continually do . With Sidney it's Liverpool, with me it's antisemitism and with GHD it's Nazism. You're like a dog with a horn. Get away from that table leg.

Nah, the thing with Sidney was just a minor spat. With you and GHD its the real deal. I find both of you truly repugnant. You are bigots posing as defenders of human rights. You feign outrage but this latest escalation is everything you could hope for. The two of you have been acting like social media stormtroopers for the last couple of weeks feeding off the misery and stoking the fires of bigotry.

The thing is Seafoid, the state of Israel would not exist if were not for the likes of you and GHD with your attempts to eliminate the "sub humans" , as GHD calls them. It simply would not be there. Palestine would be one state controlled by Palestinians. Instead idiots like you had to pursue that ancient, irrational hatred to the ultimate denouement in WWII that has led to the present situation.

That should keep you awake at night Seafoid. The whole mess is down to you and your ilk.
It's the same crap with everyone. You have online Aspergers syndrome
You should go back to hospital.

No. Its you and GHD in particular.

Israelis are humans too Seafoid regardless of what you and GHD say.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 28, 2014, 08:23:53 PM
Lads , i would ignore mike sheehy as he is  a WUM in whatever thread he posts in, you are better off not engaging with a clown like him.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 28, 2014, 08:23:53 PM
Lads , i would ignore mike sheehy as he is  a WUM in whatever thread he posts in, you are better off not engaging with a clown like him.

I don't engage. The defeats of '03, '05, and '08 still hurt him too much
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
... you anti-semites ...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the get-out-of-jail card that the Israelis use every time to justify their genocidal maniacal tendencies and get away with mass murder.

Criticize the policies of the Israeli government? You sound like Adolf!

No. I abhor the policies of the Israeli government. I equally abhor people who characterize others as sub-human.
So why don't you condemn the people of Israel for standing foursquare behind butcher Netanyahu ? You are incoherent .
Is it right that Jewish gangs are roaming Jerusalem beating up Palestinians ? Is that my fault as well ?

Nah, that tack wont work seafoid. Palestinians voted for Hamas. Israelis vote for Netanyahu. That's the nature of politics in countries at war. Any rational, reasonable person can make that observation without branding the people of either country as sub-human.

Now, if you said that people are accountable for who they elect and left it at that, grand. I would agree but, instead, you only seem to want to hold Israelis accountable for who they elect. Again, it is this double standard that is the mark of an anti-Semite.

Also, no, it is wrong that Jewish gangs are roaming Jerusalem beating up Palestinians. Completely wrong. Whos fault is that ? well,  it is probably the fault of your social media doppelganger on the other side who is saying that Palestinians are subhuman. Like I've said before, bigots just occupy opposite sides of the same coin.

The bottom line is that if , as you claim, your goal is purely about Palestinian self-determination you can prove it by distancing yourself from  GHD's "subhuman" comments or, at the very least, don't jump in whenever he gets called out for going off on his rants.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:44:49 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 28, 2014, 08:23:53 PM
Lads , i would ignore mike sheehy as he is  a WUM in whatever thread he posts in, you are better off not engaging with a clown like him.

If you don't have anything constructive to add then mind your own business.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:45:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 28, 2014, 08:23:53 PM
Lads , i would ignore mike sheehy as he is  a WUM in whatever thread he posts in, you are better off not engaging with a clown like him.

I don't engage. The defeats of '03, '05, and '08 still hurt him too much

You don't engage because you know you will get destroyed.

Did you tell those people in Dungannon about the Barnes review ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 09:15:31 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
... you anti-semites ...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the get-out-of-jail card that the Israelis use every time to justify their genocidal maniacal tendencies and get away with mass murder.

Criticize the policies of the Israeli government? You sound like Adolf!

No. I abhor the policies of the Israeli government. I equally abhor people who characterize others as sub-human.
So why don't you condemn the people of Israel for standing foursquare behind butcher Netanyahu ? You are incoherent .
Is it right that Jewish gangs are roaming Jerusalem beating up Palestinians ? Is that my fault as well ?

Nah, that tack wont work seafoid. Palestinians voted for Hamas. Israelis vote for Netanyahu. That's the nature of politics in countries at war. Any rational, reasonable person can make that observation without branding the people of either country as sub-human.

Now, if you said that people are accountable for who they elect and left it at that, grand. I would agree but, instead, you only seem to want to hold Israelis accountable for who they elect. Again, it is this double standard that is the mark of an anti-Semite.

Also, no, it is wrong that Jewish gangs are roaming Jerusalem beating up Palestinians. Completely wrong. Whos fault is that ? well,  it is probably the fault of your social media doppelganger on the other side who is saying that Palestinians are subhuman. Like I've said before, bigots just occupy opposite sides of the same coin.

The bottom line is that if , as you claim, your goal is purely about Palestinian self-determination you can prove it by distancing yourself from  GHD's "subhuman" comments or, at the very least, don't jump in whenever he gets called out for going off on his rants.
I am not responsible for what anyone else posts.
Israelis are human but as a people they are really shortsighted. This war is a disaster for Israel.
And whose fault is the systemic incitement that drives people of  limited mental ability to kill Palestinians in Jerusalem? It's Netanyahu's fault.
Israel is out of control.  There's no point in defending it.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 09:36:16 PM
If anyone is around Dungannon on Thursday evening at 8pm, come along and hear my friend from Gaza speak about what is going on in Gaza right now. His name is Yousef Al Helou and so far he has lost 12 members of his extended family in an Israeli airstrike. His home has also been destroyed.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1454263701506391/?fref=ts

He will also be in Belfast on Friday evening, and I will let people know the details as I get them.

On Saturday I am bringing him to Derry where he will also speak at another event there. I will let you know the details later

This is an interview he recently gave to The Real News Network

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12150#.U9DpdgAKZKs.facebook
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 28, 2014, 09:53:19 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 09:36:16 PM
If anyone is around Dungannon on Thursday evening at 8pm, come along and hear my friend from Gaza speak about what is going on in Gaza right now. His name is Yousef Al Helou and so far he has lost 12 members of his extended family in an Israeli airstrike. His home has also been destroyed.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1454263701506391/?fref=ts

He will also be in Belfast on Friday evening, and I will let people know the details as I get them.

On Saturday I am bringing him to Derry where he will also speak at another event there. I will let you know the details later

This is an interview he recently gave to The Real News Network

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12150#.U9DpdgAKZKs.facebook
You are doing great work publicising the Palestinians plight. It is important people see real faces and remember that Palestinians are human beings not numbers. War dehumanises and people caught in conflicts have a need to dehumanise the enemy and you have been there but for peace enemies must see each other as human beings. Israelis are human beings also.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 09:58:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 09:15:31 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2014, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
... you anti-semites ...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the get-out-of-jail card that the Israelis use every time to justify their genocidal maniacal tendencies and get away with mass murder.

Criticize the policies of the Israeli government? You sound like Adolf!

No. I abhor the policies of the Israeli government. I equally abhor people who characterize others as sub-human.
So why don't you condemn the people of Israel for standing foursquare behind butcher Netanyahu ? You are incoherent .
Is it right that Jewish gangs are roaming Jerusalem beating up Palestinians ? Is that my fault as well ?

Nah, that tack wont work seafoid. Palestinians voted for Hamas. Israelis vote for Netanyahu. That's the nature of politics in countries at war. Any rational, reasonable person can make that observation without branding the people of either country as sub-human.

Now, if you said that people are accountable for who they elect and left it at that, grand. I would agree but, instead, you only seem to want to hold Israelis accountable for who they elect. Again, it is this double standard that is the mark of an anti-Semite.

Also, no, it is wrong that Jewish gangs are roaming Jerusalem beating up Palestinians. Completely wrong. Whos fault is that ? well,  it is probably the fault of your social media doppelganger on the other side who is saying that Palestinians are subhuman. Like I've said before, bigots just occupy opposite sides of the same coin.

The bottom line is that if , as you claim, your goal is purely about Palestinian self-determination you can prove it by distancing yourself from  GHD's "subhuman" comments or, at the very least, don't jump in whenever he gets called out for going off on his rants.
I am not responsible for what anyone else posts.
Israelis are human but as a people they are really shortsighted. This war is a disaster for Israel.
And whose fault is the systemic incitement that drives people of  limited mental ability to kill Palestinians in Jerusalem? It's Netanyahu's fault.
Israel is out of control.  There's no point in defending it.

You are responsible if you jump in and have a go at me when I call someone out for making reprehensible statements.

But, you at least made some effort in that last post so I will reciprocate.....

I am not "defending Israel" in the way that people like you portray it. I am "defending Israel" in the same way I would defend any nation or race by saying , unequivocally, that they have a right to exist and a right to live in peace . Palestinians also have a right to exist and live in peace in a Palestinian state. That is my starting point. the Israelis are acting illegally by occupying Palestinian territory. This should end.  They claim that they are occupying these lands for security reasons.My take is more nuanced than yours. I believe that the security issue is both a lie and a truth at the same time. For some it is an excuse to simply occupy the land. For others it is genuinely a security issue. Hamas say they are to quote their leader "not fanatics we are not fundamentalists" . There may be some truth to that. Within in any armed movement there will be a spectrum but, clearly, it is also a lie as demonstrated by their continued attacks before and during this latest escalation.

This Israeli administration is for sure shortsighted and criminal but there are plenty of dissenting voices within Israel . As I have to keep pointing out to you , you have quoted probably a hundred articles from the third biggest newspaper in Israel in support of your arguments and so has GHD yet he then points at a poll conducted with a wartime populace and takes that as proof of their sub-humanity  ::). It is this kind of egregious misrepresentation that has to stop. Hold the Israelis to a high standard, for sure but do it with some sense of balance.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 10:02:41 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 28, 2014, 09:53:19 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 09:36:16 PM
If anyone is around Dungannon on Thursday evening at 8pm, come along and hear my friend from Gaza speak about what is going on in Gaza right now. His name is Yousef Al Helou and so far he has lost 12 members of his extended family in an Israeli airstrike. His home has also been destroyed.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1454263701506391/?fref=ts

He will also be in Belfast on Friday evening, and I will let people know the details as I get them.

On Saturday I am bringing him to Derry where he will also speak at another event there. I will let you know the details later

This is an interview he recently gave to The Real News Network

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12150#.U9DpdgAKZKs.facebook
You are doing great work publicising the Palestinians plight. It is important people see real faces and remember that Palestinians are human beings not numbers. War dehumanises and people caught in conflicts have a need to dehumanise the enemy and you have been there but for peace enemies must see each other as human beings. Israelis are human beings also.

Last Friday night I spoke on line to another friend from Gaza. I asked him to put together a few words for me to read out at the rally on Saturday. He said he would, and then 15 minutes later an extended family members home was hit by an airstrike. 20 were killed, 11 of them children.

Many other friends have all been reporting either a friend, a sister, brother, cousin, parent, grandparent getting killed. There isn't a family in Gaza who hasn't had a family member killed or injured over the years in Gaza. Everyone is carrying a lot of pain, and only for their deep faith, I don't know how they would cope.

Talking to anyone over there at present and they will tell you that Cast Lead 5 years ago was a picnic. I saw the after effects of Cast Lead, and I can't image how much worse it can be.

Gaza is a perfect example of mans inhumanity to his fellow man. It is beyond belief.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on July 28, 2014, 10:21:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
... you anti-semites ...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the get-out-of-jail card that the Israelis use every time to justify their genocidal maniacal tendencies and get away with mass murder.

Criticize the policies of the Israeli government? You sound like Adolf!

No. I abhor the policies of the Israeli government. I equally abhor people who characterize others as sub-human.

people deliberately killing women and children with the best weaponry money can buy and people calling these killers sub-human are equally bad in your mind? yer not wise
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 28, 2014, 10:44:05 PM
The tweets coming from Gaza right now are horrific. They are getting it full on from land sea and air.

Follow the tweets here via this link

https://twitter.com/occpal/lists/gazaunderattack
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 28, 2014, 11:06:30 PM
Regardless of what the Israeli govt is doing, it's unacceptable to brand all or most Israelis "sub-human" ffs.

When it boils down to it, your average Israeli, average Palestinian, average Irishman, average Ugandan, average anybody, just wants to get up in the morning, make enough to feed his family and live in peace. This isn't always possible but it's more to do with a culture of fear of "them" engendered by those in power rather than a lack of humanity on the part of your average Joe
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 11:20:54 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on July 28, 2014, 10:21:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 07:44:54 PM
... you anti-semites ...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the get-out-of-jail card that the Israelis use every time to justify their genocidal maniacal tendencies and get away with mass murder.

Criticize the policies of the Israeli government? You sound like Adolf!

No. I abhor the policies of the Israeli government. I equally abhor people who characterize others as sub-human.

people deliberately killing women and children with the best weaponry money can buy and people calling these killers sub-human are equally bad in your mind? yer not wise

He called 87% of the population sub-human that is what I was calling him to task for and yes, I view people like that as equally abhorrent because it is that kind of bigotry that has led to this situation.

And yes, I think that what the Israelis are doing is beyond the pale .They know they have an advantage in weaponry and continue to target civilian areas and that is a war crime. Does the general Israeli population share the blame ? Yes they do , they have to accept responsibility for what their government does in their name likewise  Palestinians voted for Hamas who have vowed to destroy Israel and have killing jews as their stated aim. However, neither side is "subhuman" because of those choices. Brutalized, yes, subhuman, no.

I have stated that the onslaught must stop, but now you will have to address the other side of that and that is , if they stop, are they to accept indefinite shelling simply because they have the technology to stop most (not all) Hamas shells ? I do not think that is acceptable.

As I stated before, Somebody has to step in and "persuade" the Israelies to withdraw to the UN mandated borders. I think it has reached the stage where only force will achieve this but it cant be Hamas or any other force that is bent on their destruction. It has to be a controlled force but with teeth and that force will have to guarantee Israels security in return for that withdrawal.

Take away their chief excuse and then I will support any punitive action if they transgress after that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 28, 2014, 11:41:21 PM
Mike Sheehy, you haven't got a clue.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 11:49:54 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 28, 2014, 11:41:21 PM
Mike Sheehy, you haven't got a clue.

Nah, you are the clueless one as evidenced by your cop out one liner response. You probably couldn't find the place on the map never mind discuss it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 28, 2014, 11:57:25 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 11:49:54 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 28, 2014, 11:41:21 PM
Mike Sheehy, you haven't got a clue.

Nah, you are the clueless one as evidenced by your cop out one liner response. You probably couldn't find the place on the map never mind discuss it.

Why do you start from the position that Israeli military action is taken as a reaction to rockets from Gaza and not vice-versa?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 29, 2014, 12:00:18 AM
"I have stated that the onslaught must stop, but now you will have to address the other side of that and that is , if they stop, are they to accept indefinite shelling simply because they have the technology to stop most (not all) Hamas shells ? I do not think that is acceptable."

This paragraph alone shows that you have swallowed all the bullshit you're being fed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 29, 2014, 12:14:01 AM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 28, 2014, 11:57:25 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 11:49:54 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 28, 2014, 11:41:21 PM
Mike Sheehy, you haven't got a clue.

Nah, you are the clueless one as evidenced by your cop out one liner response. You probably couldn't find the place on the map never mind discuss it.

Why do you start from the position that Israeli military action is taken as a reaction to rockets from Gaza and not vice-versa?

You fail on basic comprehension. In my last post  I started from the position that the Israeli onsluaght must stop. I did not make it a precondition that it should stop only if the rockets stop . However, it is not acceptable for Hamas to continually fire rockets into Israel that is what I challenged J'Ogorman to address.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 29, 2014, 12:18:57 AM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 29, 2014, 12:00:18 AM
"I have stated that the onslaught must stop, but now you will have to address the other side of that and that is , if they stop, are they to accept indefinite shelling simply because they have the technology to stop most (not all) Hamas shells ? I do not think that is acceptable."

This paragraph alone shows that you have swallowed all the bullshit you're being fed.

It is clear that you are yet another Hamas stooge.

Educate yourself on the wider issues and come back with a grown up response like a good lad.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 29, 2014, 12:42:50 AM
For the past 2 hours Israel has stepped up their bombing of Gaza and have been raining bombs down on them from land sea and air. There have been countless deaths reported and hundreds injured. The sky is ablaze with flares and bombs. This is the worst night so far by all accounts. Someone on Twitter had this to say:

"Nothing can be said, nothing can be done. We sit and wait for our turn to join the list of martyrs"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZALwMbReo4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 29, 2014, 12:44:36 AM
This the sky in Gaza tonight

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtqvEOACQAA8ius.jpg:large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtqvEN_CUAAHUS3.jpg:large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtqvEOdCMAE5oiG.jpg:large)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 29, 2014, 12:51:07 AM
In the past 90 minutes Israel have killed a further 18 Palestinians.  11 in one house in Buraij
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: THE MIGHTY QUINN on July 29, 2014, 12:53:27 AM
This is the equivalent of someone attacking somewhere in the christian
world on a Christmas night
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 29, 2014, 12:57:11 AM
Live stream

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10970066/Watch-live-Gaza-city-skyline.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on July 29, 2014, 01:12:29 AM
been watching the live streams nearly every night but tonight is the worst. God help those poor people.
http://www.aa.com.tr/live1/gaza-live.html (http://www.aa.com.tr/live1/gaza-live.html)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on July 29, 2014, 01:19:14 AM
Oh i see CNN have eventually decided to send a camera into Gaza.  Must be a slow news week for them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 29, 2014, 08:18:33 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 28, 2014, 08:44:49 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 28, 2014, 08:23:53 PM
Lads , i would ignore mike sheehy as he is  a WUM in whatever thread he posts in, you are better off not engaging with a clown like him.

If you don't have anything constructive to add then mind your own business.

Your continual accusations of ant-isemitism and Nazism just because someone doesn't hold your views aren't particularly constructive either, but then when your main aim is to cause offence then maybe that is mission accomplished?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 08:53:58 AM
Israelis are happy to punish Palestinians for getting uppity and demanding their rights but they can't take IDF casualties. It's so wrong when their soldiers die. 


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.607745#

Hamas is not begging for its life or raising a white flag; it is using the time it has to extract an increasingly steep price from the IDF.

Hamas' refusal to accept the path sketched out for it by our intelligence gurus, along with Monday's losses, is sending the political arena spinning. It's starting to look as if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's political ship is starting to spring some leaks. Ministers from the hawkish wing of his government are starting to smell weakness, or are looking to shore up their future after the war, and are attacking accordingly. Interior Minister Gideon Sa'ar is demanding a cabinet debate on continuing the operation, Energy and Water Resources Minister Silvan Shalom hinted that U.S. President Barack Obama's demands for a cease-fire Sunday were essentially solicited by Netanyahu, and Agriculture Minister Yair Shamir complained that Israel had wasted three weeks of international credit without accomplishing almost anything against Hamas.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-gaza-conflict-2014/.premium-1.607747
This is the dilemma Netanyahu faces: Continue to tread water and stick to dealing with the tunnels, or expand the operation, which will surely result in additional casualties among IDF soldiers. He doesn't want to seem as if he's been dragged into something. He doesn't want to be portrayed as someone who acted only under fire. He doesn't want to lose his political world.

But in the current situation, when the operation's international legitimacy is drying up quickly and the pressure on Israel is growing accordingly, the bigger danger is that he will be forced to end the war with an inelegant cease-fire that Hamas can declare as a victory.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 29, 2014, 08:54:35 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html

Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes
Mehdi Hasan
Posted: 28/07/2014 11:55 BST Updated: 28/07/2014 18:59 BST

You've got to hand it to Israeli spinners like Mark Regev. They are masters of PR. In fact, as the Independent's Patrick Cockburn revealed over the weekend, "the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe".

Let's be clear: I'm no fan of Hamas, a brutal and anti-Semitic group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against the people of Gaza and of war crimes against the people of Israel. Firing rockets into civilian areas isn't justified under international law, even if it is framed as part of a (legitimate) struggle against foreign military occupation.

Having said that, however, in recent days I've been debating supporters of Israel's latest assault on Gaza on radio and on Twitter and I've been astonished not just by the sheer number of fact-free claims made by those supporters, but also by their confidence, slickness and sheer message discipline. According to the pro-Israel, pro-IDF crowd, Hamas is to blame for everything.

This, of course, is utter nonsense. To quote the late US senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."

So, in a Moynihanian spirit, here are fact-filled, evidence-based rebuttals to the 11 main myths, half-truths and self-serving 'talking points' that are repeatedly pushed by various Israeli spokespersons, both on the airwaves and on social media:

1) The Gaza Strip isn't occupied by Israel

Boston Globe: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones.. now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three." Human Rights Watch: "Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there." B'Tselem, 2013: "Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967."

2) Israel wants a ceasefire but Hamas doesn't

Al Jazeera: "Meshaal said Hamas wants the 'aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [Israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations'. He added 'we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme'." Jerusalem Post: "One day after an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire accepted by Israel, but rejected by Hamas, fell through, the terrorist organization proposed a 10-year end to hostilities in return for its conditions being met by Israel, Channel 2 reported Wednesday.. Hamas's conditions were the release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade." BBC: "Israel's security cabinet has rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry 'as it stands'."

3) Israel, unlike Hamas, doesn't deliberately target civilians

The Guardian: "It was there that the second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: 'They are only children.'" UN high commissioner for human rights Navi Pillay: "A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the [Israeli] claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives." United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, 2009: "The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it.. appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."

4) Only Hamas is guilty of war crimes, not Israel

Human Rights Watch: "Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital - laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes."Amnesty International: "Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws of war."

5) Hamas use the civilians of Gaza as 'human shields'

Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The Guardian: "In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay." The Independent: "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields." Reuters, 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields."

6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014
Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas hadprobably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

7) Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel

Jewish Daily Forward: "Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since [2012 Gaza conflict], and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013." International Crisis Group: "Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.. As Israel (and Egypt) rolled back the 2012 understandings - some of which were implemented spottily at best - so too did Hamas roll back its anti rocket efforts."

8) Hamas provoked Israel by kidnapping and killing three Israeli teenagers

Jewish Daily Forward: "The [Israeli] government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations.. Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren't acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas' Hebron branch -- more a crime family than a clandestine organization -- had a history of acting without the leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests." BBC correspondent Jon Donnison: "Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership.. Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government."

9) Hamas rule, not Israel's blockade, is to blame for the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip

US State Department cable: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. Israeli officials have confirmed.. on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." The Guardian: "The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.. The Israeli advocacy group Gisha.. waged a long court battle to release the document. Its members say Israel calculated the calorie needs for Gaza's population so as to restrict the quantity of food it allowed in."

10) The Israeli government, unlike Hamas, wants a two-state solution

Times of Israel: "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.. Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, 'I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.'"

11) All serious analysts agree it was Hamas, and not Israel, that started this current conflict

Nathan Thrall, senior Mid East analyst at the International Crisis Group, writing in the New York Times: "The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement." Henry Siegman, former national director, American Jewish Congress, writing for Politico: "Israel's assault on Gaza.. was not triggered by Hamas' rockets directed at Israel but by Israel's determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 29, 2014, 09:23:16 AM
It sure was a bad night in Gaza as 60 were killed and hundreds injured.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 09:28:15 AM
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)61044-8/fulltext

We ask our colleagues, old and young professionals, to denounce this Israeli aggression. We challenge the perversity of a propaganda that justifies the creation of an emergency to masquerade a massacre, a so-called "defensive aggression". In reality it is a ruthless assault of unlimited duration, extent, and intensity. We wish to report the facts as we see them and their implications on the lives of the people.

We are appalled by the military onslaught on civilians in Gaza under the guise of punishing terrorists. This is the third large scale military assault on Gaza since 2008. Each time the death toll is borne mainly by innocent people in Gaza, especially women and children under the unacceptable pretext of Israel eradicating political parties and resistance to the occupation and siege they impose.

This action also terrifies those who are not directly hit, and wounds the soul, mind, and resilience of the young generation. Our condemnation and disgust are further compounded by the denial and prohibition for Gaza to receive external help and supplies to alleviate the dire circumstances.

The blockade on Gaza has tightened further since last year and this has worsened the toll on Gaza's population. In Gaza, people suffer from hunger, thirst, pollution, shortage of medicines, electricity, and any means to get an income, not only by being bombed and shelled. Power crisis, gasoline shortage, water and food scarcity, sewage outflow and ever decreasing resources are disasters caused directly and indirectly by the siege.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 29, 2014, 09:50:35 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 29, 2014, 08:54:35 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html

Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes
Mehdi Hasan
Posted: 28/07/2014 11:55 BST Updated: 28/07/2014 18:59 BST

You've got to hand it to Israeli spinners like Mark Regev. They are masters of PR. In fact, as the Independent's Patrick Cockburn revealed over the weekend, "the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe".

Let's be clear: I'm no fan of Hamas, a brutal and anti-Semitic group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against the people of Gaza and of war crimes against the people of Israel. Firing rockets into civilian areas isn't justified under international law, even if it is framed as part of a (legitimate) struggle against foreign military occupation.

Having said that, however, in recent days I've been debating supporters of Israel's latest assault on Gaza on radio and on Twitter and I've been astonished not just by the sheer number of fact-free claims made by those supporters, but also by their confidence, slickness and sheer message discipline. According to the pro-Israel, pro-IDF crowd, Hamas is to blame for everything.

This, of course, is utter nonsense. To quote the late US senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."

So, in a Moynihanian spirit, here are fact-filled, evidence-based rebuttals to the 11 main myths, half-truths and self-serving 'talking points' that are repeatedly pushed by various Israeli spokespersons, both on the airwaves and on social media:

1) The Gaza Strip isn't occupied by Israel

Boston Globe: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones.. now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three." Human Rights Watch: "Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there." B'Tselem, 2013: "Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967."

2) Israel wants a ceasefire but Hamas doesn't

Al Jazeera: "Meshaal said Hamas wants the 'aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [Israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations'. He added 'we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme'." Jerusalem Post: "One day after an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire accepted by Israel, but rejected by Hamas, fell through, the terrorist organization proposed a 10-year end to hostilities in return for its conditions being met by Israel, Channel 2 reported Wednesday.. Hamas's conditions were the release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade." BBC: "Israel's security cabinet has rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry 'as it stands'."

3) Israel, unlike Hamas, doesn't deliberately target civilians

The Guardian: "It was there that the second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: 'They are only children.'" UN high commissioner for human rights Navi Pillay: "A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the [Israeli] claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives." United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, 2009: "The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it.. appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."

4) Only Hamas is guilty of war crimes, not Israel

Human Rights Watch: "Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital - laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes."Amnesty International: "Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws of war."

5) Hamas use the civilians of Gaza as 'human shields'

Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The Guardian: "In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay." The Independent: "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields." Reuters, 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields."

6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014
Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas hadprobably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

7) Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel

Jewish Daily Forward: "Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since [2012 Gaza conflict], and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013." International Crisis Group: "Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.. As Israel (and Egypt) rolled back the 2012 understandings - some of which were implemented spottily at best - so too did Hamas roll back its anti rocket efforts."

8) Hamas provoked Israel by kidnapping and killing three Israeli teenagers

Jewish Daily Forward: "The [Israeli] government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations.. Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren't acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas' Hebron branch -- more a crime family than a clandestine organization -- had a history of acting without the leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests." BBC correspondent Jon Donnison: "Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership.. Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government."

9) Hamas rule, not Israel's blockade, is to blame for the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip

US State Department cable: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. Israeli officials have confirmed.. on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." The Guardian: "The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.. The Israeli advocacy group Gisha.. waged a long court battle to release the document. Its members say Israel calculated the calorie needs for Gaza's population so as to restrict the quantity of food it allowed in."

10) The Israeli government, unlike Hamas, wants a two-state solution

Times of Israel: "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.. Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, 'I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.'"

11) All serious analysts agree it was Hamas, and not Israel, that started this current conflict

Nathan Thrall, senior Mid East analyst at the International Crisis Group, writing in the New York Times: "The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement." Henry Siegman, former national director, American Jewish Congress, writing for Politico: "Israel's assault on Gaza.. was not triggered by Hamas' rockets directed at Israel but by Israel's determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy."

Very good article Sidney.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 09:53:36 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/israel-pounds-gaza-after-netanyahu-promises-prolonged-battle

Palestinian officials say more than 110 people have been killed in Gaza in the past 24 hours.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 09:56:51 AM
I'll be up in the Ballsbridge Hotel tonight and tomorrow night. Is the Israeli embassy in lockdown or are people protesting outside it?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 10:13:45 AM
https://twitter.com/LibyaLiberty/status/493407665494560768/photo/1
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 29, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rabbi-Lior-Jewish-law-permits-destruction-of-Gaza-to-bring-safety-to-Israel-368605

Rabbi Lior: Jewish law permits destruction of Gaza to bring safety to Israel

Rabbi Dov Lior, a national- religious leader and the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba and Hebron, published a letter on Monday saying that Jewish law permits destroying the entire Gaza Strip to bring peace to the south of the country.

Lior said that he had received questions about whether Jewish law permits harming a civilian population not directly involved with the combatants.

He first cited the opinion of the Maharal of Prague, a renowned 16th-century rabbi, who wrote that a nation under attack can wage a fierce war against the assaulting nation, and that it is not obligated regarding the safety of people who are personally involved in hostilities.

"At a time of war, the nation under attack is allowed to punish the enemy population with measures it finds suitable, such as blocking supplies or electricity, as well as shelling the entire area according to the army minister's judgment, and not to needlessly endanger soldiers but rather to take crushing deterring steps to exterminate the enemy," Lior wrote.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 29, 2014, 11:16:36 AM
The fuel tanks for the only power plant in Gaza have been destroyed today 

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/s851x315/10404087_10152580695873104_8616894121502304434_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 29, 2014, 11:23:28 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 29, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rabbi-Lior-Jewish-law-permits-destruction-of-Gaza-to-bring-safety-to-Israel-368605

Rabbi Lior: Jewish law permits destruction of Gaza to bring safety to Israel

Rabbi Dov Lior, a national- religious leader and the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba and Hebron, published a letter on Monday saying that Jewish law permits destroying the entire Gaza Strip to bring peace to the south of the country.

Lior said that he had received questions about whether Jewish law permits harming a civilian population not directly involved with the combatants.

He first cited the opinion of the Maharal of Prague, a renowned 16th-century rabbi, who wrote that a nation under attack can wage a fierce war against the assaulting nation, and that it is not obligated regarding the safety of people who are personally involved in hostilities.

"At a time of war, the nation under attack is allowed to punish the enemy population with measures it finds suitable, such as blocking supplies or electricity, as well as shelling the entire area according to the army minister's judgment, and not to needlessly endanger soldiers but rather to take crushing deterring steps to exterminate the enemy," Lior wrote.
Absolutely bonkers, In any normal society Lior would have been locked up. Even Netanyahu thinks he is an extremist. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.556311
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 29, 2014, 11:26:53 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 29, 2014, 11:16:36 AM
The fuel tanks for the only power plant in Gaza have been destroyed today 

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/s851x315/10404087_10152580695873104_8616894121502304434_n.jpg)

When the hawks in the US talked about bombing Iraq back to the stone age this is what they had in mind and its taken Israel to do it with US armory.

This is as big a disgrace as the ethnic cleansing that happened in Kosovo and other Balkan republics, yet we're watching and letting it happen..
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 11:41:59 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 29, 2014, 11:23:28 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 29, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rabbi-Lior-Jewish-law-permits-destruction-of-Gaza-to-bring-safety-to-Israel-368605

Rabbi Lior: Jewish law permits destruction of Gaza to bring safety to Israel

Rabbi Dov Lior, a national- religious leader and the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba and Hebron, published a letter on Monday saying that Jewish law permits destroying the entire Gaza Strip to bring peace to the south of the country.

Lior said that he had received questions about whether Jewish law permits harming a civilian population not directly involved with the combatants.

He first cited the opinion of the Maharal of Prague, a renowned 16th-century rabbi, who wrote that a nation under attack can wage a fierce war against the assaulting nation, and that it is not obligated regarding the safety of people who are personally involved in hostilities.

"At a time of war, the nation under attack is allowed to punish the enemy population with measures it finds suitable, such as blocking supplies or electricity, as well as shelling the entire area according to the army minister's judgment, and not to needlessly endanger soldiers but rather to take crushing deterring steps to exterminate the enemy," Lior wrote.
Absolutely bonkers, In any normal society Lior would have been locked up. Even Netanyahu thinks he is an extremist. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.556311
There are more like him in the other settlements

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/the-king-s-torah-a-rabbinic-text-or-a-call-to-terror-1.261930
The prohibition 'Thou Shalt Not Murder' applies only "to a Jew who kills a Jew," write Rabbis Yitzhak Shapira and Yosef Elitzur of the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar. Non-Jews are "uncompassionate by nature" and attacks on them "curb their evil inclination," while babies and children of Israel's enemies may be killed since "it is clear that they will grow to harm us."

"The King's Torah (Torat Hamelech), Part One: Laws of Life and Death between Israel and the Nations," a 230-page compendium of Halacha, or Jewish religious law, published by the Od Yosef Chai yeshiva in Yitzhar, garnered a front-page exposé in the Israeli tabloid Ma'ariv, which called it the stuff of "Jewish terror."

And secular Jews with similar ideas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJXFbH4McM
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 29, 2014, 01:34:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 11:41:59 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 29, 2014, 11:23:28 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 29, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rabbi-Lior-Jewish-law-permits-destruction-of-Gaza-to-bring-safety-to-Israel-368605

Rabbi Lior: Jewish law permits destruction of Gaza to bring safety to Israel

Rabbi Dov Lior, a national- religious leader and the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba and Hebron, published a letter on Monday saying that Jewish law permits destroying the entire Gaza Strip to bring peace to the south of the country.

Lior said that he had received questions about whether Jewish law permits harming a civilian population not directly involved with the combatants.

He first cited the opinion of the Maharal of Prague, a renowned 16th-century rabbi, who wrote that a nation under attack can wage a fierce war against the assaulting nation, and that it is not obligated regarding the safety of people who are personally involved in hostilities.

"At a time of war, the nation under attack is allowed to punish the enemy population with measures it finds suitable, such as blocking supplies or electricity, as well as shelling the entire area according to the army minister's judgment, and not to needlessly endanger soldiers but rather to take crushing deterring steps to exterminate the enemy," Lior wrote.
Absolutely bonkers, In any normal society Lior would have been locked up. Even Netanyahu thinks he is an extremist. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.556311
There are more like him in the other settlements

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/the-king-s-torah-a-rabbinic-text-or-a-call-to-terror-1.261930
The prohibition 'Thou Shalt Not Murder' applies only "to a Jew who kills a Jew," write Rabbis Yitzhak Shapira and Yosef Elitzur of the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar. Non-Jews are "uncompassionate by nature" and attacks on them "curb their evil inclination," while babies and children of Israel's enemies may be killed since "it is clear that they will grow to harm us."

"The King's Torah (Torat Hamelech), Part One: Laws of Life and Death between Israel and the Nations," a 230-page compendium of Halacha, or Jewish religious law, published by the Od Yosef Chai yeshiva in Yitzhar, garnered a front-page exposé in the Israeli tabloid Ma'ariv, which called it the stuff of "Jewish terror."

And secular Jews with similar ideas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJXFbH4McM
1 extremist like that is too many when they have such a grip on power.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 29, 2014, 04:46:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 29, 2014, 12:18:57 AM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 29, 2014, 12:00:18 AM
"I have stated that the onslaught must stop, but now you will have to address the other side of that and that is , if they stop, are they to accept indefinite shelling simply because they have the technology to stop most (not all) Hamas shells ? I do not think that is acceptable."

This paragraph alone shows that you have swallowed all the bullshit you're being fed.

It is clear that you are yet another Hamas stooge.

Educate yourself on the wider issues and come back with a grown up response like a good lad.

That's right Mike. Anyone who hasn't sucked up the Israeli narrative on this conflict is a Hamas stooge  ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on July 29, 2014, 04:57:16 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

Sheehy called me a p***k  :(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 05:06:20 PM
Yeah, he goes overboard too. I don't agree with calling people anti-semites or Nazi sympathisers either.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: MasterShake on July 29, 2014, 05:08:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

'Israeli response'...immediately characterizes the Palestinians as the instigators.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on July 29, 2014, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 29, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rabbi-Lior-Jewish-law-permits-destruction-of-Gaza-to-bring-safety-to-Israel-368605

Rabbi Lior: Jewish law permits destruction of Gaza to bring safety to Israel

Rabbi Dov Lior, a national- religious leader and the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba and Hebron, published a letter on Monday saying that Jewish law permits destroying the entire Gaza Strip to bring peace to the south of the country.

He'd get on well with "Pastor" McConnell and his ilk.
It looks like the rogue State of Israel is set on flattening Gaza and driving the civilian population into Egyptian territory. They'll leave Gaza there as some kind of unoccupied buffer Zone.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 05:11:30 PM
Quote from: MasterShake on July 29, 2014, 05:08:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

'Israeli response'...immediately characterizes the Palestinians as the instigators.

No it doesn't. Read the context of the sentence and don't put a context that isn't there. The origin of the problem is Israel's illegal occupation and terrorising of the Palestinian people. However each INDIVIDUAL rocket instance from Hamas (or other groups) is like manna from heaven for the Israeli war hawks who are looking for an excuse to attack again, and to present it as 'defending Israel'.

Each rocket attack guarantees more martyred children and civilians in Gaza. You have to question Hamas' rationale there.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 05:14:07 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on July 29, 2014, 04:57:16 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

Sheehy called me a p***k  :(
He was only trying to be friendly
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 05:25:11 PM
That's true, and I agree he goes OTT at times. Also I'm going to stop speaking for him because at the end of the day, he's well able to speak for himself.

But aside from the fall out ye've been having, are you in general agreement with the points he's started to articulate in the manner above?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 29, 2014, 05:30:21 PM
Quote from: MasterShake on July 29, 2014, 05:08:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

'Israeli response'...immediately characterizes the Palestinians as the instigators.

Got in there ahead of me. Never once have I heard of a rocket attack from Gaza being described as a 'Hamas response'. Its always Israeli response, counterstrike, countermeasure, retaliation, etc.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 05:33:46 PM
OK, fair enough. I see the point. But Israel still "responds" to the Hamas "response". Israel is the instigator here, but Hamas keeps giving it senseless material to use as propaganda. Why?

By the way I have heard phrases like 'Hamas fired rockets into Tel Aviv tonight in retaliation for a sustained Israeli bombing on Gaza' or whatever, so I'm not sure what you've said is 100% accurate.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Íseal agus crua isteach a on July 29, 2014, 07:18:59 PM
For anyone living in America you can call the White house at No. is 202/456-1111.

Do not press any buttons but just hold until a volunteer asks 'What is your brief comment for the president?"

A good comment is "Stop using my taxes to fund Israel's genocide of Gaza." Act for America; stop acting for Israel. Thats of course if you live there.

Thats the message I left. I do believe their interested to know what people on the ground are saying.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 08:04:33 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 05:25:11 PM
That's true, and I agree he goes OTT at times. Also I'm going to stop speaking for him because at the end of the day, he's well able to speak for himself.

But aside from the fall out ye've been having, are you in general agreement with the points he's started to articulate in the manner above?
I think it's too late for 2 states. The points are fine but he's not about making points. His specialty is trolling. You Nazi.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 08:13:32 PM
Norman Finkelstein: "For 20 days I have sat in front of this computer like a mad man. Tomorrow I will be arrested and arrested and arrested until this madness ends." 

He explains the legal situation very well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIg2XeSrx18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccenVc7Bq5Q
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 29, 2014, 08:25:12 PM
Norman was true to his word and got arrested today along with 25 others
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 08:28:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 08:04:33 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 05:25:11 PM
That's true, and I agree he goes OTT at times. Also I'm going to stop speaking for him because at the end of the day, he's well able to speak for himself.

But aside from the fall out ye've been having, are you in general agreement with the points he's started to articulate in the manner above?
I think it's too late for 2 states. The points are fine but he's not about making points. His specialty is trolling. You Nazi.

I'm a Nazi?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 08:29:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 08:28:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 08:04:33 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 05:25:11 PM
That's true, and I agree he goes OTT at times. Also I'm going to stop speaking for him because at the end of the day, he's well able to speak for himself.

But aside from the fall out ye've been having, are you in general agreement with the points he's started to articulate in the manner above?
I think it's too late for 2 states. The points are fine but he's not about making points. His specialty is trolling. You Nazi.

I'm a Nazi?
That was a joke. That's how Sheehy operates. Did you like the experience ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 08:35:55 PM
An analysis by Unitar/Unosat, an agency of the United Nations, found that about 600 structures had been destroyed in the Shejaiya neighborhood of Gaza City in the first two and a half weeks of the Israeli incursion. Israeli officials have said that one of the goals of the incursion is to destroy tunnels leading from Gaza to Israel. Shejaiya has been the site of some of the worst fighting. JULY 27, 2014

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/27/world/middleeast/assessing-the-damage-and-destruction-in-gaza.html?_r=1

The Israelis are destroying everything in an attempt to get the people to abandon Hamas. 
Would that have worked with the IRA ? Would Tyrone or South Down have turned unionist ?

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=24740

Very unlikely
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 09:13:21 PM
Video of the attack inside Israel yesterday when 4 soldiers were killed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NAhozItSq0

This is why Israel bombed the shit out of Gaza last night.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on July 29, 2014, 09:31:08 PM
Sheehy has lots of points, like me he is drawing some needed attention to the one sided commentary of seafood and Dixie, both of whom find it impossible to criticise hamas who fire rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas if Israel, also a war crime. The fact they are never landing is irrelevant. Israel is a better equipped to do the horrendous crimes they do
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 29, 2014, 09:47:01 PM
Exactly how many of this missiles have landed in Israel, with this weapons system , they have handily left out the % hitting Israel out of the thousands of rockets fired, if very little is getting through they got no excuse for entering Palestine at all. Some of the Comments on the CNN news page is terrible about grazing Gaza to the ground, these clowns learn nothing from the Ghettos in warsaw and Poland and them getting grazed to the ground.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 09:53:13 PM
First of all let me prefix this with what israel is doing is shocking just to clear that up. The lies, the media campaign, the unashamed genocide, the murder of children ,and the list goes on, is beyond words.

Sheehy from what i've noticed in other threads likes trolling but, asides from the insults and nazi comments which have been way out of order,makes valid points.

His points really circle around anti semitism and the fact that you two boys display many of those traits.There is an irony to it - anti semitism creates zionists. What you do by being like that is create a full circle which never gets broken. That point seems a bit beyond the grasp of some to be honest.

Israeli people are not sub human. Elements of people in israel are and most definitely those behind this.

I work with an israeli and he is very concerned for his families safety but he also sees the wrong in what is going on.

If you watch the bbc news or sky news all you get is pro israel. If you come here it's continued copy and pastes of pro palestinian articles. I very much doubt anyone reads the stuff you boys even copy and paste any more.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 10:05:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on July 29, 2014, 09:31:08 PM
Sheehy has lots of points, like me he is drawing some needed attention to the one sided commentary of seafood and Dixie, both of whom find it impossible to criticise hamas who fire rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas if Israel, also a war crime. The fact they are never landing is irrelevant. Israel is a better equipped to do the horrendous crimes they do

It's self determination, Itchy.
Israel will never give the Palestinians their freedom.
They are trying to blow everything up in Gaza so the people will lie down and go back to the siege.
And under international law the palestinians have the right to use force in self determination.
So I'm with Hamas on this one.

Israel is completely wrong on Gaza.
The occupying power does not have the right to use force against self determination.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 10:08:18 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 09:53:13 PM
First of all let me prefix this with what israel is doing is shocking just to clear that up. The lies, the media campaign, the unashamed genocide, the murder of children ,and the list goes on, is beyond words.

Sheehy from what i've noticed in other threads likes trolling but, asides from the insults and nazi comments which have been way out of order,makes valid points.

His points really circle around anti semitism and the fact that you two boys display many of those traits.There is an irony to it - anti semitism creates zionists. What you do by being like that is create a full circle which never gets broken. That point seems a bit beyond the grasp of some to be honest.

Israeli people are not sub human. Elements of people in israel are and most definitely those behind this.

I work with an israeli and he is very concerned for his families safety but he also sees the wrong in what is going on.

If you watch the bbc news or sky news all you get is pro israel. If you come here it's continued copy and pastes of pro palestinian articles. I very much doubt anyone reads the stuff you boys even copy and paste any more.

Israelis are human but f**king stupid. They think they can run an apartheid system forever.
Zionism isn't Judaism either. Judaism is much better than Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
Well the unfortunate reality at the minute is that there are no international powers willing to challenge them on what they are doing.

They're more interested in russia it seems.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:16:20 PM
On the international thing ireland's abstaining from that human rights vote was disgusting. Britain doing it wasn't a big surprise but ireland. Could not believe it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 10:19:05 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:16:20 PM
On the international thing ireland's abstaining from that human rights vote was disgusting. Britain doing it wasn't a big surprise but ireland. Could not believe it.
I think the EU takes a consensus and then they all vote the same way.
Not surprising really. 

If the massacres continue for another 2 or 3 weeks you'll probably see different voting results.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 10:21:30 PM
Rabbi David Seth Kishner at Stand with Israel rally in NY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v4smlsZ3QQ

"Palestinians who voted for Hamas are combatants who deserve to be targeted by Israel" he says

There is no law in this conflict. There never is where Israel is concerned.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 10:19:05 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:16:20 PM
On the international thing ireland's abstaining from that human rights vote was disgusting. Britain doing it wasn't a big surprise but ireland. Could not believe it.
I think the EU takes a consensus and then they all vote the same way.
Not surprising really. 

If the massacres continue for another 2 or 3 weeks you'll probably see different voting results.

Too late then.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on July 29, 2014, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:16:20 PM
On the international thing ireland's abstaining from that human rights vote was disgusting. Britain doing it wasn't a big surprise but ireland. Could not believe it.

Yep. Sums up the calibre of the country. Instead Ireland is too busy trying to prevent abuse of the "human rights" of scumbags that bankrupted the country or raped charities such as Rehab.

How about a referendum to really see what the country thinks of the non-action of our leaders and thinkers?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 10:40:23 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 09:53:13 PM
First of all let me prefix this with what israel is doing is shocking just to clear that up. The lies, the media campaign, the unashamed genocide, the murder of children ,and the list goes on, is beyond words.

Sheehy from what i've noticed in other threads likes trolling but, asides from the insults and nazi comments which have been way out of order,makes valid points.

His points really circle around anti semitism and the fact that you two boys display many of those traits.There is an irony to it - anti semitism creates zionists. What you do by being like that is create a full circle which never gets broken. That point seems a bit beyond the grasp of some to be honest.

Israeli people are not sub human. Elements of people in israel are and most definitely those behind this.

I work with an israeli and he is very concerned for his families safety but he also sees the wrong in what is going on.

If you watch the bbc news or sky news all you get is pro israel. If you come here it's continued copy and pastes of pro palestinian articles. I very much doubt anyone reads the stuff you boys even copy and paste any more.
It's not possible for BBC or RTE to tell people that Israel is never going to give the Palestinians a state and that Israel is trying to emulate Oliver Cromwell in Gaza now.

GHD knows Gaza very well and he knows how Israel operates.
Sheehy has some good points but he's not socially capable of making them without insulting people.
I think the flaw in his reasoning is that he thinks Israel will at some stage behave in good faith.
I don't believe it ever will. There is something fundamentally wrong with Israel.

The conflict is very complicated as well and most people don't have the time or inclination to look at it in depth. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:44:37 PM
The truth about what is going on now would be a start from the bbc.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 10:53:40 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:44:37 PM
The truth about what is going on now would be a start from the bbc.

Jonathan Kuttab @jkuttab     ·   1m   

Unbelievable:  entire neighborhood destroyed in ONE HOUR. Must see time lapse to believe it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdoYZ1-9XsM

Norman Finkelstein on why Israel does this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccenVc7Bq5Q
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 08:52:39 AM
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/28/gazas-children-trapped-in-despair/

"World Jewry has erected a high wall of ideological protection around Israel, a defensive-psychological formation which not only condones its actions in all particulars (including, now, the invasion of Gaza), but also vituperatively strikes out, the cancer of intra-recriminatory behavior, against critics as therefore self-hating Jews for purposes of silencing dissent. Judaism is presently in a strait-jacket, the prime enabler for Israel's commission of war crimes. I have consistently argued for the separation of Judaism from Israel, the latter a transgressive force contaminating the wellsprings of Jewish ethical principles and teachings by its actions with respect to Palestinians and, in fact, a global posture of Reaction, as in its uncritical support of—fully reciprocated by—American foreign policy."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 30, 2014, 08:53:27 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2014, 10:44:37 PM
The truth about what is going on now would be a start from the bbc.

I had a quick look at a lot of the UK red tops web sites yesterday and you'd have to go looking for anything on Palestine and when you do find it a good few have a picture of one of the Israeli soldiers funeral. They are keeping the white van man in the dark on this, maybe the white van man is more interested in Tulisa or whoever, but its certainly not top billing.

C4 news and Jon Snow are the only ones I see giving this any sort of worthy coverage of this massacre!


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 09:10:01 AM
Yes, the internet give a really side on perspective view of the power and bias of the large media outlets to suit someone's agenda.

It really is an ugly murky world we live in
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tbrick18 on July 30, 2014, 09:28:06 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

Excellent post, and sums up the conflict in a nutshell. The part in bold could be applied here also and in many other places throughout the world.

The Isreali response does not justify the threat. It can only be described as genocide in the guise of self-defence in my opinion.
That's not justifying what Hamas have done, however, if your country was in the position that Gaza is on a daily basis where supplies, education, electric, economy....everything is being controlled and restricted by an external power do you not think eventually the people will rise up against that? I believe Hamas are the manifestation of this to a point, but like Bloody Sunday, these incursions into Gaza and senseless unpunished unrestricted murder of innocent civilians will be the biggest recruitment tool that Hamas have ever seen. So the problem perpetuates.

Its really sad and it really highlights the evil in that exists in the world when fellow human beings can have so little regard for other human beings. It's ironic to think that not that long ago, Jews were the victims of attempted genocide and now the Jewish Isreali state seem to be the equivalent of the Nazis in WWII.
Is this an unfair comparison? Nazis WWII = Isreal Modern Day and Gaza Palestinians = Jews WWII?

Did anyone see John Snow last night on C4 news interviewing the former Isreali Ambassador to the US? Be basically told him he was talking nonsense when he said Hamas were using civilians as human shields and that the Isreali's were doing everything they could to protect civilians. The Ambassador was not a happy camper.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 30, 2014, 09:32:23 AM
Did anyone see John Snow last night on C4 news interviewing the former Isreali Ambassador to the US? Be basically told him he was talking nonsense when he said Hamas were using civilians as human shields and that the Isreali's were doing everything they could to protect civilians. The Ambassador was not a happy camper.

But the lad held the party line right to the end and didn't waver, they're well drilled in this regard.

I'd like them taken to task on the 'Israel didn't start this', well they didn't fire the first rocket, but their embargo and regular shootings was always going to lead to some sort of reprisal by Hamas and the Palestinian people constantly being backed into a corner.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tbrick18 on July 30, 2014, 09:48:14 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 30, 2014, 09:32:23 AM
Did anyone see John Snow last night on C4 news interviewing the former Isreali Ambassador to the US? Be basically told him he was talking nonsense when he said Hamas were using civilians as human shields and that the Isreali's were doing everything they could to protect civilians. The Ambassador was not a happy camper.

But the lad held the party line right to the end and didn't waver, they're well drilled in this regard.

I'd like them taken to task on the 'Israel didn't start this', well they didn't fire the first rocket, but their embargo and regular shootings was always going to lead to some sort of reprisal by Hamas and the Palestinian people constantly being backed into a corner.

Yup, even when Snow was able to directly rebut what he had said he just reverted to the Isreal defending itself routine.
I have to say, I've been impressed by C4 news and Snow in particular in reporting this. They also condemn Hamas, but the reporting is balanced and based on the facts as they see them rather than how the BBC are reporting it as all pro-Isreali.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 30, 2014, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 30, 2014, 09:32:23 AM
Did anyone see John Snow last night on C4 news interviewing the former Isreali Ambassador to the US? Be basically told him he was talking nonsense when he said Hamas were using civilians as human shields and that the Isreali's were doing everything they could to protect civilians. The Ambassador was not a happy camper.

But the lad held the party line right to the end and didn't waver, they're well drilled in this regard.

I'd like them taken to task on the 'Israel didn't start this', well they didn't fire the first rocket, but their embargo and regular shootings was always going to lead to some sort of reprisal by Hamas and the Palestinian people constantly being backed into a corner.
The mainstream media in general is happy to toe Iisrael's line in terms of the way coverage is framed. It's all about the framing.

Since Israel has launched a ground offensive inside Gaza, I don't think I've once heard a mainstream media outlet mention Palestine/Gaza's right to defend itself.

I haven't once heard the question asked: Does Israel acknowledge Palestine's right to exist?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 10:16:18 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 30, 2014, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 30, 2014, 09:32:23 AM
Did anyone see John Snow last night on C4 news interviewing the former Isreali Ambassador to the US? Be basically told him he was talking nonsense when he said Hamas were using civilians as human shields and that the Isreali's were doing everything they could to protect civilians. The Ambassador was not a happy camper.

But the lad held the party line right to the end and didn't waver, they're well drilled in this regard.

I'd like them taken to task on the 'Israel didn't start this', well they didn't fire the first rocket, but their embargo and regular shootings was always going to lead to some sort of reprisal by Hamas and the Palestinian people constantly being backed into a corner.
The mainstream media in general is happy to toe Iisrael's line in terms of the way coverage is framed. It's all about the framing.

Since Israel has launched a ground offensive inside Gaza, I don't think I've once heard a mainstream media outlet mention Palestine/Gaza's right to defend itself.

I haven't once heard the question asked: Does Israel acknowledge Palestine's right to exist?
Mainstream media never do context . And they will only get the finger out when the public moves away from the framing - ie the News of the World. Over to Con now for the sports news.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 10:28:31 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israels-propaganda-machine-is-finally-starting-to-misfire-9636417.html
Israel's propaganda machine is finally starting to misfire



Israel's 'dream of Israeli and Palestinian children playing together' is somewhat hypocritcal when you look at the 230 children killed in Gaza


To many readers the New York Times coverage of the war in Gaza comes across as neutered or as having a pro-Israeli bias. But not to Ron Dermer, the Israeli ambassador in Washington, who lambasts the paper for failing "to mention that a million Israelis were in bomb shelters yesterday as 100 rockets were fired at our civilian population."

Mr Dermer is considered so close to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that he has been called "Bibi's brain". He is also a former student and employee of Frank Luntz, the Republican strategist who produced a confidential booklet in 2009, promptly leaked, advising Israeli spokesmen how best to manipulate American and European public opinion. "Don't confuse messages with facts," Dr Luntz advises the spokesmen as he explains how facts should be selected and best presented to make Israel's case.

It is a sophisticated document based on wide-ranging opinion polls, suggesting, for instance, that the removal of Israeli settlements from the West Bank should be denounced as "a kind of ethnic cleansing". Dr Luntz stresses that spokesmen must demonise Hamas, but above all emphasise that they feel for the sufferings of Palestinians as well as Israelis. As a sample of what they should say, he gives: "The day will come when Israeli children and Palestinian children will grow up together, play together, and work together side-by-side not just because they have to but because they want to."

The problem about this approach is that it sounds particularly hypocritical when, according to Unicef, 230 children have been killed in Gaza, an average of ten a day, and 2,000 have been wounded by Israeli bombs, shells and bullets. Israeli spokesmen are now denying their responsibility for the most notorious and televised atrocities such as the strike on the UN hospital last week. This is an old PR tactic, though not one recommended by Dr Luntz, which is sometime referred to as "first you say no story, then you say old story". In other words, deny everything in the teeth of the evidence on day one and, by the time definitive proof of the massacre comes through, nobody notices when you have to admit responsibility.

Video: The latest from Gaza

A problem here is that propaganda that works in a short war comes back to haunt you in a longer one. This is now happening in Gaza. Israeli air and artillery strikes and Hamas mortars and rockets are often presented as if they balanced each other out in terms of lethality. But the most important statistic here is that some 1,100 Palestinians have been killed as opposed to three civilians in Israel.

Despite his tutoring by Dr Luntz, Mr Dermer only speaks these days to the converted. Attending a Christians United for Israel Summit in Washington he replied to protesters who called him a "war criminal" by saying that "the truth is that the Israeli Defence Forces should be given a Nobel Peace Prize". Stuff like this may explain why a Gallup poll shows that among Americans aged between 18 and 29 some 51 per cent said Israel's actions were unjustified while only 23 per cent said they were.

For all the good advice of Dr Luntz there are signs of Israeli leaders getting rattled. Mr Netanyahu complained on CNN that Hamas wants "to pile up as many civilian dead as they can" and "to use telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause." Even the best propaganda machine cannot explain away massacres of civilians as happened in Lebanon at Sabra and Shatila in 1982 and at Qana in 1996 and 2006
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 10:35:22 AM
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jon-stewart-israel-john-kerry-criticism
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on July 30, 2014, 10:38:14 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 30, 2014, 09:32:23 AM
Did anyone see John Snow last night on C4 news interviewing the former Isreali Ambassador to the US? Be basically told him he was talking nonsense when he said Hamas were using civilians as human shields and that the Isreali's were doing everything they could to protect civilians. The Ambassador was not a happy camper.

But the lad held the party line right to the end and didn't waver, they're well drilled in this regard.

I'd like them taken to task on the 'Israel didn't start this', well they didn't fire the first rocket, but their embargo and regular shootings was always going to lead to some sort of reprisal by Hamas and the Palestinian people constantly being backed into a corner.

just to point out number 6 in a previous post by Sidney i think

Quote) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014
Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas hadprobably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 30, 2014, 10:56:30 AM
Also,
A lot of misleading headlines;

From the Irish Times,
Another UN Gaza school hit, Hamas vows no ceasefire

but in the article it reads;

The leader of Hamas's armed wing Mr Deif said in a recorded message on television that Palestinians would continue confronting Israel until its blockade on Gaza - which is supported by neighbouring Egypt - was lifted.
"The occupying entity will not enjoy security unless our people live in freedom and dignity," Mr Deif said.

"There will be no ceasefire before the (Israeli) aggression is stopped and the blockade is lifted. We will not accept interim solutions."

The Irish Times are not the only ones at it
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.

It's run by extremists and bought political cover in the US by rich Jewish extremists.
Israel is more like something out of the middle ages. Or Oliver Cromwell's campaign in Ireland
The question is how much damage it will do before it is stopped. And who will stop it.

   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on July 30, 2014, 11:42:15 AM
more valuable time wasted

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/stormont-meeting-launches-dup-friends-of-israel-group-1-6114099
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 30, 2014, 12:29:02 PM
So, it's impossible to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic! Glad we can now finally close down the debate. Israel is perfect and infallible, let us all bow down and worship it.


http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Yes-all-criticism-of-Israel-is-anti-Semitic

Yes, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic! By BENJAMIN KERSTEIN
05/20/2012 22:31

That is to say, the historical circumstances under which Israel and the Jews exist in the world today render any non anti-Semitic criticism of Israel impossible.

'But surely you don't believe," they always ask you, "that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?" It is a noticeably patronizing question, of course, in that it is obviously an admonition that all civilized, thinking people must answer "no" or "of course not." It is an important question, however, because of its real answer, which is unequivocally and unquestionably "yes."

The idea that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic horrifies some, offends and mortifies others, and terrifies still more. The usual reaction to it is something along the lines of "how can you say that?!" Nonetheless, it is exactly what I am saying in regard to Israel and its critics.

I do not speak, however, of intentional or conscious anti-Semitism (though it is a major factor), nor of inadvertent or ignorant anti-Semitism (though this also plays a mighty role). All criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic because of hate, or prejudice, or malice, or stupidity, or indeed any of those very human vices so often regarded as the devil's work by upper-middle-class liberals.

All criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic because of the specific historical circumstances under which we currently live. That is to say, the historical circumstances under which Israel and the Jews exist in the world today render any non-anti-Semitic criticism of Israel impossible. And, ironically, these are circumstances that Israel's opponents have themselves created.

To hold that this is not the case requires acting – and demanding that others act – as if these circumstances do not exist, even as they sit as patiently as a pachyderm in the parlor waiting for us to notice them and, sometimes, when our self-willed ignorance grows too infuriating, murder our children and set off bombs in our streets.

Nonetheless, these circumstances are not complex, nor are they numerous. They are simply these: A large portion of the world, West and East, has come to believe that Arabs and Muslims have earned the right to murder Jews.

Derived from this right, they have also come to believe that the destruction dismantling, and erasure of the State of Israel, and the slaughter, expulsion, and/or perpetual subjugation of its Jewish population are entirely legitimate and indeed desirable.

Derived from the preceding is the belief that the Jewish people in general, in Israel or the Diaspora, either do not exist as a people deserving the same rights as other peoples, or are an evil and debased people who must be slaughtered, expelled, and/or perpetually subjugated in order to prevent them from committing further debased evils.

UNDER SUCH circumstances, it is clear that: The existence, rights and dignity of Israel and the Jews are considered to be intertwined to the point that no differentiation between them is possible.

The existence, rights and dignity of Israel and the Jews are considered uniquely contingent upon their conduct and whether or not that conduct meets with the approval of the non-Jewish world.

Because of the beliefs outlined in the previous section, Israeli and Jewish conduct will never meet with the aforementioned approval.

As a result, Israel and the Jews are, in essence, held indistinguishable by a court whose proceedings are perpetual and whose verdict is known beforehand. Under such circumstances, there is no criticism, no evidence for the prosecution, which does not aid in the process of an unjust trial before a monstrous court. Which is not, put simply, anti-Semitic.

It is either subjectively anti-Semitic, in that it consciously and intentionally aids in this injustice; or it is objectively anti-Semitic, in that it unconsciously and unintentionally does the same thing. The distinction – if there ever was one – between the two is now meaningless. Either way, the result is the same.

It may be, of course, that some criticism of Israel will be deemed necessary in spite of the consequences, and the need for a public hearing will overwhelm the need to prevent a victory of sorts for anti-Semitism. If so, however, those doing the criticizing ought to be honest enough to acknowledge the objective consequences of doing so, whatever is said or left unsaid along the way.

So, it must be said again: Yes, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Yes, it is so because of specific historical circumstances. Yes, it is inescapable. Yes, it holds true however well-intentioned such criticism may be. Yes, it holds as true for Jewish as for non-Jewish critics of Israel.

The Middle East conflict, David Ben-Gurion said a long time ago – and he was right – is not about the Jews and the Arabs, it is about the Jews and the world, a world that is overwhelmingly not Jewish, and thus bears certain responsibilities toward its Jewish minority. If and when the world finally accepts these responsibilities, criticism of Israel that is not anti-Semitic will become possible.

Until then, however, there is at least a possible solution to the problem, should critics of Israel be willing to entertain it. It is a modest imperative: Work toward less anti-Semitism. This imperative does not demand silence, but it does require a measure of self-reflection that is (and I in no way exempt myself) a task of the most supreme difficulty for us all.

The writer is an author and editor living in Tel Aviv.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 12:31:26 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 30, 2014, 12:29:02 PM
So, it's impossible to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic! Glad we can now finally close down the debate. Israel is perfect and infallible, let us all bow down and worship it.


http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Yes-all-criticism-of-Israel-is-anti-Semitic

Yes, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic! By BENJAMIN KERSTEIN
05/20/2012 22:31

That is to say, the historical circumstances under which Israel and the Jews exist in the world today render any non anti-Semitic criticism of Israel impossible.

'But surely you don't believe," they always ask you, "that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?" It is a noticeably patronizing question, of course, in that it is obviously an admonition that all civilized, thinking people must answer "no" or "of course not." It is an important question, however, because of its real answer, which is unequivocally and unquestionably "yes."

The idea that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic horrifies some, offends and mortifies others, and terrifies still more. The usual reaction to it is something along the lines of "how can you say that?!" Nonetheless, it is exactly what I am saying in regard to Israel and its critics.

I do not speak, however, of intentional or conscious anti-Semitism (though it is a major factor), nor of inadvertent or ignorant anti-Semitism (though this also plays a mighty role). All criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic because of hate, or prejudice, or malice, or stupidity, or indeed any of those very human vices so often regarded as the devil's work by upper-middle-class liberals.

All criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic because of the specific historical circumstances under which we currently live. That is to say, the historical circumstances under which Israel and the Jews exist in the world today render any non-anti-Semitic criticism of Israel impossible. And, ironically, these are circumstances that Israel's opponents have themselves created.

To hold that this is not the case requires acting – and demanding that others act – as if these circumstances do not exist, even as they sit as patiently as a pachyderm in the parlor waiting for us to notice them and, sometimes, when our self-willed ignorance grows too infuriating, murder our children and set off bombs in our streets.

Nonetheless, these circumstances are not complex, nor are they numerous. They are simply these: A large portion of the world, West and East, has come to believe that Arabs and Muslims have earned the right to murder Jews.

Derived from this right, they have also come to believe that the destruction dismantling, and erasure of the State of Israel, and the slaughter, expulsion, and/or perpetual subjugation of its Jewish population are entirely legitimate and indeed desirable.

Derived from the preceding is the belief that the Jewish people in general, in Israel or the Diaspora, either do not exist as a people deserving the same rights as other peoples, or are an evil and debased people who must be slaughtered, expelled, and/or perpetually subjugated in order to prevent them from committing further debased evils.

UNDER SUCH circumstances, it is clear that: The existence, rights and dignity of Israel and the Jews are considered to be intertwined to the point that no differentiation between them is possible.

The existence, rights and dignity of Israel and the Jews are considered uniquely contingent upon their conduct and whether or not that conduct meets with the approval of the non-Jewish world.

Because of the beliefs outlined in the previous section, Israeli and Jewish conduct will never meet with the aforementioned approval.

As a result, Israel and the Jews are, in essence, held indistinguishable by a court whose proceedings are perpetual and whose verdict is known beforehand. Under such circumstances, there is no criticism, no evidence for the prosecution, which does not aid in the process of an unjust trial before a monstrous court. Which is not, put simply, anti-Semitic.

It is either subjectively anti-Semitic, in that it consciously and intentionally aids in this injustice; or it is objectively anti-Semitic, in that it unconsciously and unintentionally does the same thing. The distinction – if there ever was one – between the two is now meaningless. Either way, the result is the same.

It may be, of course, that some criticism of Israel will be deemed necessary in spite of the consequences, and the need for a public hearing will overwhelm the need to prevent a victory of sorts for anti-Semitism. If so, however, those doing the criticizing ought to be honest enough to acknowledge the objective consequences of doing so, whatever is said or left unsaid along the way.

So, it must be said again: Yes, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Yes, it is so because of specific historical circumstances. Yes, it is inescapable. Yes, it holds true however well-intentioned such criticism may be. Yes, it holds as true for Jewish as for non-Jewish critics of Israel.

The Middle East conflict, David Ben-Gurion said a long time ago – and he was right – is not about the Jews and the Arabs, it is about the Jews and the world, a world that is overwhelmingly not Jewish, and thus bears certain responsibilities toward its Jewish minority. If and when the world finally accepts these responsibilities, criticism of Israel that is not anti-Semitic will become possible.

Until then, however, there is at least a possible solution to the problem, should critics of Israel be willing to entertain it. It is a modest imperative: Work toward less anti-Semitism. This imperative does not demand silence, but it does require a measure of self-reflection that is (and I in no way exempt myself) a task of the most supreme difficulty for us all.

The writer is an author and editor lying in Tel Aviv.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: armaghniac on July 30, 2014, 12:33:39 PM
One thing is certain, along with the many tragic physical casualties of this conflict, the English language is also a casualty, or at least the concept that words have any generally accepted meaning.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Keyser soze on July 30, 2014, 12:38:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 12:31:26 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 30, 2014, 12:29:02 PM
So, it's impossible to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic! Glad we can now finally close down the debate. Israel is perfect and infallible, let us all bow down and worship it.


http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Yes-all-criticism-of-Israel-is-anti-Semitic

Yes, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic! By BENJAMIN KERSTEIN
05/20/2012 22:31

That is to say, the historical circumstances under which Israel and the Jews exist in the world today render any non anti-Semitic criticism of Israel impossible.

'But surely you don't believe," they always ask you, "that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?" It is a noticeably patronizing question, of course, in that it is obviously an admonition that all civilized, thinking people must answer "no" or "of course not." It is an important question, however, because of its real answer, which is unequivocally and unquestionably "yes."

The idea that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic horrifies some, offends and mortifies others, and terrifies still more. The usual reaction to it is something along the lines of "how can you say that?!" Nonetheless, it is exactly what I am saying in regard to Israel and its critics.

I do not speak, however, of intentional or conscious anti-Semitism (though it is a major factor), nor of inadvertent or ignorant anti-Semitism (though this also plays a mighty role). All criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic because of hate, or prejudice, or malice, or stupidity, or indeed any of those very human vices so often regarded as the devil's work by upper-middle-class liberals.

All criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic because of the specific historical circumstances under which we currently live. That is to say, the historical circumstances under which Israel and the Jews exist in the world today render any non-anti-Semitic criticism of Israel impossible. And, ironically, these are circumstances that Israel's opponents have themselves created.

To hold that this is not the case requires acting – and demanding that others act – as if these circumstances do not exist, even as they sit as patiently as a pachyderm in the parlor waiting for us to notice them and, sometimes, when our self-willed ignorance grows too infuriating, murder our children and set off bombs in our streets.

Nonetheless, these circumstances are not complex, nor are they numerous. They are simply these: A large portion of the world, West and East, has come to believe that Arabs and Muslims have earned the right to murder Jews.

Derived from this right, they have also come to believe that the destruction dismantling, and erasure of the State of Israel, and the slaughter, expulsion, and/or perpetual subjugation of its Jewish population are entirely legitimate and indeed desirable.

Derived from the preceding is the belief that the Jewish people in general, in Israel or the Diaspora, either do not exist as a people deserving the same rights as other peoples, or are an evil and debased people who must be slaughtered, expelled, and/or perpetually subjugated in order to prevent them from committing further debased evils.

UNDER SUCH circumstances, it is clear that: The existence, rights and dignity of Israel and the Jews are considered to be intertwined to the point that no differentiation between them is possible.

The existence, rights and dignity of Israel and the Jews are considered uniquely contingent upon their conduct and whether or not that conduct meets with the approval of the non-Jewish world.

Because of the beliefs outlined in the previous section, Israeli and Jewish conduct will never meet with the aforementioned approval.

As a result, Israel and the Jews are, in essence, held indistinguishable by a court whose proceedings are perpetual and whose verdict is known beforehand. Under such circumstances, there is no criticism, no evidence for the prosecution, which does not aid in the process of an unjust trial before a monstrous court. Which is not, put simply, anti-Semitic.

It is either subjectively anti-Semitic, in that it consciously and intentionally aids in this injustice; or it is objectively anti-Semitic, in that it unconsciously and unintentionally does the same thing. The distinction – if there ever was one – between the two is now meaningless. Either way, the result is the same.

It may be, of course, that some criticism of Israel will be deemed necessary in spite of the consequences, and the need for a public hearing will overwhelm the need to prevent a victory of sorts for anti-Semitism. If so, however, those doing the criticizing ought to be honest enough to acknowledge the objective consequences of doing so, whatever is said or left unsaid along the way.

So, it must be said again: Yes, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Yes, it is so because of specific historical circumstances. Yes, it is inescapable. Yes, it holds true however well-intentioned such criticism may be. Yes, it holds as true for Jewish as for non-Jewish critics of Israel.

The Middle East conflict, David Ben-Gurion said a long time ago – and he was right – is not about the Jews and the Arabs, it is about the Jews and the world, a world that is overwhelmingly not Jewish, and thus bears certain responsibilities toward its Jewish minority. If and when the world finally accepts these responsibilities, criticism of Israel that is not anti-Semitic will become possible.

Until then, however, there is at least a possible solution to the problem, should critics of Israel be willing to entertain it. It is a modest imperative: Work toward less anti-Semitism. This imperative does not demand silence, but it does require a measure of self-reflection that is (and I in no way exempt myself) a task of the most supreme difficulty for us all.

The writer is an author and editor lying in Tel Aviv.

Completely barmy, I would hope this isnt reflective of opinion in Israel but fear that to an extent it may be.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 12:39:44 PM
Israel is going to run apartheid for the foreseeable . In the name of security, of course. Just like in South Africa
And don't bother talking about Israeli goodwill. It's a sick society.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.607896

A war needs no imagination. We see it on television, know the soldiers and the dead. The tension we feel is real, the sirens are real, and the destruction is measured in money. Peace, on the other hand, requires a great deal of imagination and even the ability to dream. A war mobilizes and unifies, its pretexts are always justified, and if there are no just pretexts, they are invented. Peace splits and fragments. In war there is a winner and a loser. Peace is a compromise that gives rise to discomfort. Peace is never "just." Everybody loses in it, and its profits always seem to be marginal.

Many people still mourn the loss of Sinai in exchange for peace, after the great victory in the Yom Kippur War. It is the same with Gaza. How we lost in the 2005 withdrawal without gaining the West Bank in exchange. But now, the story is different. We need no longer search for an image of victory. Even if we do not succeed in demolishing all the tunnels and rockets continue to be buried underground, awaiting their launch, victory is already in our hands. Maybe not in Gaza, but certainly in the West Bank. In Greater Israel. As happened during the withdrawal from Gaza, the system of connected vessels has returned to the psyche — a system according to which the bigger the threat Gaza poses, the more Israeli control of the West Bank is assured. The more we struggle with Hamas, the more the threat of withdrawal from "Judea and Samaria" recedes.

Ariel Sharon believed that the withdrawal from Gaza would free Israel from the obligation of negotiating over the West Bank. He believed that the Gaza withdrawal would be the "withdrawal from the territories" that Israel would sacrifice on the altar of the continued occupation. He was wrong. In this interconnected system, withdrawing from only one part could not bring anything but disaster. But paradoxically, if Gaza had become a perfect example of a thriving and prosperous mini-state, free of rockets and terrorism, Israel would have had a hard time claiming convincingly that withdrawal from the West Bank constituted a security threat.

Fortunately for the devotees of Greater Israel, the withdrawal from Gaza and its takeover by Hamas two years later gave them the perfect excuse to hold onto the West Bank and never let it go. There will never again be any need for messianic ideology or a divine promise. Gaza provided all the "right" excuses: Look at Gaza and you will know what not to do in the West Bank. In the name of security and because of the rockets, we must hold on to the West Bank, to East Jerusalem, to settle on every inch. Anyone who hesitated, anyone who asked questions, was referred to the horrific show that took place in Gaza. The "trauma of being uprooted" provided its own cure. A defensive shield against peace.

With the blink of an eye that trauma was put to an unbearable test. The sounds of peace-mongering brought to mind threatening noises from the past. Once more withdrawal was being discussed. Once again those accursed maps, the Jordan Valley inside or out, who would remain in the settlement blocs and which were destined for destruction. The Americans were coming again, Mahmoud Abbas agreed to talk, and the shadow of peace began to fire the imagination. Look, even Hamas was reconciling with Fatah, the United States was willing to cooperate with the Palestinian unity government, Europe was standing in line with donations, and the trauma of Gaza was about to dissipate. But then, three boys were kidnapped and murdered. Their murderers had not yet been found. Hamas declared loudly that it was not responsible. But that no longer mattered. A few days later, Jewish murderers burned Mohammed Abu Khdeir to death. Once again — equality.

And then came the war. A bit late, because if the war had begun before the main peace talks, there would have been no need to go through the torture of the talks. But even a bit late is still fine.

Gaza sealed the fate of the West Bank. If before, it had been possible to fantasize about some sort of peace, if for a second the settlers missed a slight beat because of the talks, now they can relax. Because who would dare mention the word "withdrawal" now? Who would agree to make himself a laughingstock by calling for peace talks? What a wonderful victory. We love you, Gaza.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 12:53:29 PM
Israel  is supposed to be a Jewish state.


Pierre Krähenbühl   @PKraehenbuehl 



This is 6th time one of our @UNRWA schools has been struck. Our staff leading int'l response are being killed. This is a breaking point

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency has strongly condemned an Israeli strike on a UN school being used as a shelter in the Jabaliya refugee camp, which killed at least 19 people and injured 90.

The agency appeared hit out at a lack of international action to end the violence with the words: "[T]his is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgracedToday the world stands disgraced."

In a statement UNRWA Commissioner-General, Pierre Krähenbühl said: "I call on the international community to take deliberate international political action to put an immediate end to the continuing carnage."

Here is the statement in full:


Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.

We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts. It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.

The precise location of the Jabalia Elementary Girls School and the fact that it was housing thousands of internally displaced people was communicated to the Israeli army seventeen times, to ensure its protection; the last being at ten to nine last night, just hours before the fatal shelling.

I condemn in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces.

This is the sixth time that one of our schools has been struck. Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.

We have moved beyond the realm of humanitarian action alone. We are in the realm of accountability. I call on the international community to take deliberate international political action to put an immediate end to the continuing carnage.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 30, 2014, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 30, 2014, 12:29:02 PM
So, it's impossible to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic! Glad we can now finally close down the debate. Israel is perfect and infallible, let us all bow down and worship it.


http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Yes-all-criticism-of-Israel-is-anti-Semitic

Yes, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic! By BENJAMIN KERSTEIN
05/20/2012 22:31

That is to say, the historical circumstances under which Israel and the Jews exist in the world today render any non anti-Semitic criticism of Israel impossible.

'But surely you don't believe," they always ask you, "that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?" It is a noticeably patronizing question, of course, in that it is obviously an admonition that all civilized, thinking people must answer "no" or "of course not." It is an important question, however, because of its real answer, which is unequivocally and unquestionably "yes."

The idea that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic horrifies some, offends and mortifies others, and terrifies still more. The usual reaction to it is something along the lines of "how can you say that?!" Nonetheless, it is exactly what I am saying in regard to Israel and its critics.

I do not speak, however, of intentional or conscious anti-Semitism (though it is a major factor), nor of inadvertent or ignorant anti-Semitism (though this also plays a mighty role). All criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic because of hate, or prejudice, or malice, or stupidity, or indeed any of those very human vices so often regarded as the devil's work by upper-middle-class liberals.

All criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic because of the specific historical circumstances under which we currently live. That is to say, the historical circumstances under which Israel and the Jews exist in the world today render any non-anti-Semitic criticism of Israel impossible. And, ironically, these are circumstances that Israel's opponents have themselves created.

To hold that this is not the case requires acting – and demanding that others act – as if these circumstances do not exist, even as they sit as patiently as a pachyderm in the parlor waiting for us to notice them and, sometimes, when our self-willed ignorance grows too infuriating, murder our children and set off bombs in our streets.

Nonetheless, these circumstances are not complex, nor are they numerous. They are simply these: A large portion of the world, West and East, has come to believe that Arabs and Muslims have earned the right to murder Jews.

Derived from this right, they have also come to believe that the destruction dismantling, and erasure of the State of Israel, and the slaughter, expulsion, and/or perpetual subjugation of its Jewish population are entirely legitimate and indeed desirable.

Derived from the preceding is the belief that the Jewish people in general, in Israel or the Diaspora, either do not exist as a people deserving the same rights as other peoples, or are an evil and debased people who must be slaughtered, expelled, and/or perpetually subjugated in order to prevent them from committing further debased evils.

UNDER SUCH circumstances, it is clear that: The existence, rights and dignity of Israel and the Jews are considered to be intertwined to the point that no differentiation between them is possible.

The existence, rights and dignity of Israel and the Jews are considered uniquely contingent upon their conduct and whether or not that conduct meets with the approval of the non-Jewish world.

Because of the beliefs outlined in the previous section, Israeli and Jewish conduct will never meet with the aforementioned approval.

As a result, Israel and the Jews are, in essence, held indistinguishable by a court whose proceedings are perpetual and whose verdict is known beforehand. Under such circumstances, there is no criticism, no evidence for the prosecution, which does not aid in the process of an unjust trial before a monstrous court. Which is not, put simply, anti-Semitic.

It is either subjectively anti-Semitic, in that it consciously and intentionally aids in this injustice; or it is objectively anti-Semitic, in that it unconsciously and unintentionally does the same thing. The distinction – if there ever was one – between the two is now meaningless. Either way, the result is the same.

It may be, of course, that some criticism of Israel will be deemed necessary in spite of the consequences, and the need for a public hearing will overwhelm the need to prevent a victory of sorts for anti-Semitism. If so, however, those doing the criticizing ought to be honest enough to acknowledge the objective consequences of doing so, whatever is said or left unsaid along the way.

So, it must be said again: Yes, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Yes, it is so because of specific historical circumstances. Yes, it is inescapable. Yes, it holds true however well-intentioned such criticism may be. Yes, it holds as true for Jewish as for non-Jewish critics of Israel.

The Middle East conflict, David Ben-Gurion said a long time ago – and he was right – is not about the Jews and the Arabs, it is about the Jews and the world, a world that is overwhelmingly not Jewish, and thus bears certain responsibilities toward its Jewish minority. If and when the world finally accepts these responsibilities, criticism of Israel that is not anti-Semitic will become possible.

Until then, however, there is at least a possible solution to the problem, should critics of Israel be willing to entertain it. It is a modest imperative: Work toward less anti-Semitism. This imperative does not demand silence, but it does require a measure of self-reflection that is (and I in no way exempt myself) a task of the most supreme difficulty for us all.

The writer is an author and editor living in Tel Aviv.

And so to carry this wonderful ideology and straw man argument to its conclusion the current holocaust the IDF is visiting upon the people of Gaza means that any future actions by Hamas in pursuit of their homeland can be justified and any criticism of those actions is just anti-muslim sectarianism (racism?).
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 30, 2014, 01:08:13 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 30, 2014, 12:57:24 PM

And so to carry this wonderful ideology and straw man argument to its conclusion the current holocaust the IDF is visiting upon the people of Gaza means that any future actions by Hamas in pursuit of their homeland can be justified and any criticism of those actions is just anti-muslim sectarianism (racism?).
No.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 01:29:12 PM
Aid organisation Christian Aid have issued a furious statement at the devastation in Gaza.

William Bell, Christian Aid's Policy and Advocacy Officer for Israel and the Palestinians, called the scale of the suffering "unprecedented" and blamed "international political impotence and indifference" for the situation in Gaza. An edited version is below, the full version can be read on the Christian Aid website.

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/July-2014/christian-aid-statement-on-gaza-impunity-must-end.aspx

This latest outbreak of violence is not about Gaza. The people who are now dying in their hundreds are paying the price for a lethal combination of international political impotence and indifference to decades of Palestinian dispossession and displacement. It appears from its actions that Israel disregards the most basic rights of Palestinians.

Those who have died deserve us to be honest about what is happening. The world cannot claim to be unaware, as it has been paying for the consequences of consistent political failure, weak Palestinian leadership and Israel's actions since the first Palestinian refugees were forced from their homes in 1947. Billions have been poured into Palestinian 'development' aid, while Israeli actions have fuelled 'de-development' and undermined a viable Palestinian economy by occupying more land for illegal settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank and restricting access and movement for people and goods.

Israel controls and impacts on almost every aspect of Palestinian life. This includes forcing them through humiliating checkpoints; allowing settler violence to go unpunished; imposing a seven year blockade on Gaza; arresting and holding thousands without charge and demolishing homes and livelihoods.

Anyone bearing witness to these facts on the ground will no doubt conclude that any possibility of a two-state solution has all but failed. Despite the international community's claim that it is the only solution, it has not acted to stop Israel usurping Palestinian land and natural resources and has allowed Palestinians to become the highest per capita recipients of donor aid in the world.

[...]

Christian Aid believes that in order for there to be security for both peoples, the climate of impunity must come to an end and each individual and collective action be accounted for through a framework guided by international law and justice. This is the essence of peace: building new relationships founded on equity. If non-violent forms of justice, such as respect for international law, are routinely ignored, then the international community will continue to fund an unsustainable status quo.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 30, 2014, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on July 30, 2014, 11:42:15 AM
more valuable time wasted

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/stormont-meeting-launches-dup-friends-of-israel-group-1-6114099

Its a lot more sinister than a waste of time.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Puckoon on July 30, 2014, 04:31:55 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 01:29:12 PM
Aid organisation Christian Aid have issued a furious statement at the devastation in Gaza.

William Bell, Christian Aid's Policy and Advocacy Officer for Israel and the Palestinians, called the scale of the suffering "unprecedented" and blamed "international political impotence and indifference" for the situation in Gaza. An edited version is below, the full version can be read on the Christian Aid website.

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/July-2014/christian-aid-statement-on-gaza-impunity-must-end.aspx

This latest outbreak of violence is not about Gaza. The people who are now dying in their hundreds are paying the price for a lethal combination of international political impotence and indifference to decades of Palestinian dispossession and displacement. It appears from its actions that Israel disregards the most basic rights of Palestinians.

Those who have died deserve us to be honest about what is happening. The world cannot claim to be unaware, as it has been paying for the consequences of consistent political failure, weak Palestinian leadership and Israel's actions since the first Palestinian refugees were forced from their homes in 1947. Billions have been poured into Palestinian 'development' aid, while Israeli actions have fuelled 'de-development' and undermined a viable Palestinian economy by occupying more land for illegal settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank and restricting access and movement for people and goods.

Israel controls and impacts on almost every aspect of Palestinian life. This includes forcing them through humiliating checkpoints; allowing settler violence to go unpunished; imposing a seven year blockade on Gaza; arresting and holding thousands without charge and demolishing homes and livelihoods.

Anyone bearing witness to these facts on the ground will no doubt conclude that any possibility of a two-state solution has all but failed. Despite the international community's claim that it is the only solution, it has not acted to stop Israel usurping Palestinian land and natural resources and has allowed Palestinians to become the highest per capita recipients of donor aid in the world.

[...]

Christian Aid believes that in order for there to be security for both peoples, the climate of impunity must come to an end and each individual and collective action be accounted for through a framework guided by international law and justice. This is the essence of peace: building new relationships founded on equity. If non-violent forms of justice, such as respect for international law, are routinely ignored, then the international community will continue to fund an unsustainable status quo.

You should have posted the entire article. It is a wholly accurate piece, well worth reading from start to finish.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 04:45:31 PM
Behind the lying eyes of Mark Regev

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqBTtXKKT_8#t=57
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:23:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:23:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.
I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 30, 2014, 06:22:32 PM
Apparently Israel was warned 17 times that the school it bombed today was housing refugees, but sure it went ahead and bombed it anyway.

But hey, why believe me on that? Believe that notorious pro-Palestinian propaganda rag, the Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2710397/15-Palestinians-killed-90-injured-Israeli-tank-shell-attack-UN-school-used-refugee-shelter.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 06:39:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:23:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.
I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

and, once again, you immediately resort to the insults as well as sweeping statements on an entire religion and yet you claim you are not a bigot ?



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 07:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 06:39:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:23:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.
I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

and, once again, you immediately resort to the insults as well as sweeping statements on an entire religion and yet you claim you are not a bigot ?
You aren't housetrained. All you can do is insult.

Reply #1757 on: Today at 12:00:26 AM
Seafoid does not have a heart and GHD does not have a mind. This is why they cut and paste. They have no alternative.
« Reply #1762 on: Today at 12:27:18 AM »
Do you ever pause to think about these children GHD ? Or are they just numerical pawns in your relentless campaign ?
« Reply #496 on: July 05, 2013, 01:15:56 PM »
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting

You show me who in organised Judaism is standing up to the madness .
Conservative, Reform, or Orthodox
The Zionists are driving Judaism into a hole.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 30, 2014, 07:11:24 PM
not in any way shape or form condoning what Israel is doing, but Hamas are not the saints they are being portrayed as here. This is a very dangerous stream of Islam

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/07/30/Hamas-CoFounders-Son-Israel-Fighting-on-Behalf-of-the-Free-World


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 30, 2014, 07:21:00 PM
Regarding the bombing of UN schools, before we blame others, remember our UN delegates shamefully and disgracefully abstained on a motion to investigate Israel for possible war crimes.

Then consider that Obama & Kerry have been humiliated by Netanyahu to the extent that they are running away to fight a phony war with Putin, anything is preferential to being publicly scolded by their delinquent dependent. They actually need the world to stand up to Netanyahu for them, but the EU hasn't the guts. Germany is in a moral quandary which Israeli extremists exploit ruthlessly. Read that 'any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic' dogma and weep.

And yet Hamas still fires the rockets.

The irrisistable butchers meet the immovable imbeciles.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 07:31:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 07:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 06:39:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:23:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.
I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

and, once again, you immediately resort to the insults as well as sweeping statements on an entire religion and yet you claim you are not a bigot ?
You aren't housetrained. All you can do is insult.

Reply #1757 on: Today at 12:00:26 AM
Seafoid does not have a heart and GHD does not have a mind. This is why they cut and paste. They have no alternative.
« Reply #1762 on: Today at 12:27:18 AM »
Do you ever pause to think about these children GHD ? Or are they just numerical pawns in your relentless campaign ?
« Reply #496 on: July 05, 2013, 01:15:56 PM »
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting

You show me who in organised Judaism is standing up to the madness .
Conservative, Reform, or Orthodox
The Zionists are driving Judaism into a hole.

That's two insults in a row....you really need to calm down Seafoid and behave in a rational manner.

Also, when you talk about "modern " Judaism and "organised" Judaism what do you mean exactly ? Is there a date as to when it became modern ? and why is a Jew in, say,  Japan suddenly responsible for what Israel does ?

Zionism is not Judaism Seafoid. Its a sad state of affairs when someone who has not been houstrained  has to explain these basic facts to a self proclaimed expert on the middle east.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 30, 2014, 07:46:03 PM
if any of you have the time....read this book....or at minimum read the reviews....definitely gave me some food for thought

http://www.amazon.com/Goliath-Life-Loathing-Greater-Israel/dp/1568586345


As i said earlier in this thread i know some Israelis, and even some people who served in the IDF. Do i believe EVERYTHING they tell me about the conflict-absolutely not!!!!

On the other hand, I get the feeling that some posters on here take every word that comes from the Palestinian side as gospel.

Theres two sides to this and the truth is somewhere in between.....at this point probably closer to the Palestinian version of events imho
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 08:01:47 PM
UNWRA spokesman Chris Gunness on Al Jazeera breaks down as he discusses Gaza (in English after intro in Arabic),

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uoemv7DNsnE&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 08:20:40 PM
Dana Erekat @14dana     ·   8h   

There is no drinkable water in #Gaza. Discussions underway to secure water from outside

Poll - 95% of Israeli Jews think the killing is justified
https://twitter.com/Remroum/status/494258985654943744/photo/1
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:22:18 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 07:31:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 07:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 06:39:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:23:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 29, 2014, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 29, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
I think a lot of ye have a hard on for Sheehy based on his rising ye. Maybe he deserves some of it. But if you look at what he is saying, what do ye actually disagree with?

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

To be honest, I don't think anyone on this board is a million miles away from what Sheehy is saying. I know I'm not, and I've had my disagreements with him in the past. Sheehy takes exception when some posts from very Pro-Palestinian positions seem to either see only one side, or castigate the entire Israeli population. That seems to be the real disconnect here.

I understand that GHD, Seafoid and Mike Sheehy hold entrenched positions, but sometimes you get so 'dug in' that you don't realise your battle lines are nearly close enough to shake hands.

He only started bringing together those points recently.
His modus operandi is insulting his target.
I can't take him seriously.
Nobody is interested in being insulted every time they try to make a point.

Firstly, I have been making these points a lot longer than "recently". Your problem is that you not listen to anyone that
does not conform exactly to your tunnel vision view of the conflict. You are clicking the "post" button with your next cut'n'paste
response before you have even finished reading their sentence, nevermind taking the time to absorb what they say.

Secondly, as pointed out by Intomygunn and itchy, the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense. The labelling
began a long time ago and it is because of that kind of crap that there has never been anything resembling a proper debate on this board.
I have all your insults on file. You only started talking about politics about 3 months ago.
The most common words from you before were Nazi, p***k, **** and anti-Semite.

"the adversarial atmosphere on this issue is primarily down to people like you who spam endlessly and denigrate anyone who does not tow the line as "Zionists" or swallowers of hasbara or other such nonsense."

It's down to the fact that you are not housetrained. 

Anyway Israel is behaving like the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto now. Well done Israel.
Superb window on modern Judaism, really.

and, once again, you immediately resort to the insults as well as sweeping statements on an entire religion and yet you claim you are not a bigot ?
You aren't housetrained. All you can do is insult.

Reply #1757 on: Today at 12:00:26 AM
Seafoid does not have a heart and GHD does not have a mind. This is why they cut and paste. They have no alternative.
« Reply #1762 on: Today at 12:27:18 AM »
Do you ever pause to think about these children GHD ? Or are they just numerical pawns in your relentless campaign ?
« Reply #496 on: July 05, 2013, 01:15:56 PM »
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting

You show me who in organised Judaism is standing up to the madness .
Conservative, Reform, or Orthodox
The Zionists are driving Judaism into a hole.

That's two insults in a row....you really need to calm down Seafoid and behave in a rational manner.

Also, when you talk about "modern " Judaism and "organised" Judaism what do you mean exactly ? Is there a date as to when it became modern ? and why is a Jew in, say,  Japan suddenly responsible for what Israel does ?

Zionism is not Judaism Seafoid. Its a sad state of affairs when someone who has not been houstrained  has to explain these basic facts to a self proclaimed expert on the middle east.
Organised Judaism means the leaders of the major Jewish organisations  in the West.
They all support what Israel is doing.
Why? 

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dferg on July 30, 2014, 09:33:44 PM
Interesting article

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Recording-of-distress-call-to-police-by-kidnapped-teen-released-361169

The comments at the bottom raise a few questions also
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Minder on July 30, 2014, 10:19:53 PM
Is this satire?

Former Prime Minister Tony Blair wins million dollar Israeli leadership prize

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/4643809/Former-Prime-Minister-Tony-Blair-wins-million-dollar-Israeli-leadership-prize.html


The Middle East peace envoy will receive the Dan David Prize for "his exceptional leadership and steadfast determination in helping to engineer agreements and forge lasting solutions to areas in conflict".
The award is presented by the Dan David Foundation, which is based at Tel Aviv University. Previous recipients include former US presidential candidate and environmental campaigner Al Gore and playwright Tom Stoppard.
A spokesman for Mr Blair said the money will be donated to the former Labour leader's charity for religious understanding.

Mr Blair is an envoy of the international Quartet on the Middle East peace process, which comprises the US, European Union, United Nations and Russia.
His entry as a Dan David laureate on the prize's website hails him as "one of the most outstanding statesmen of our era".

It praises his role in the Northern Ireland peace process and his "steadfast determination and morally courageous leadership" over Kosovo, but there is no mention of the controversial decision to support the US-led invasion of Iraq.

The citation states: "Early in his prime ministership, he came to two beliefs that guide him to today: first, that it is a mistake for the world to wait for America to solve all of the tough questions, and second, that there are some things a state may do within its borders that justify intervention even if the actions do not directly threaten another nation's interests."
The award will be presented in a ceremony on May 17 at Tel Aviv University.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: SLIGONIAN on July 31, 2014, 12:00:34 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/30/russell-brand-sean-hannity_n_5632882.html?ir=UK+Entertainment
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

The problem is American

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYGyJ2LjYVQ
AIPAC directly lobbies 100/100 US Senators

It's very efficient
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1U3UpXwUV4
http://ontd-political.livejournal.com/11075373.html

"If you just keep your mouth shut, it's hard to imagine progressives abandoning you," one progressive pro-Israel activist said. "There isn't a lot of upside and potentially a lot of downside of a lawmaker getting on the wrong side of a community that is riled up, especially in the run-up to an election...intensity beats numbers, and the people who support Israel are very intense."

That would be "their Jewishness" BTW . Very intense and you don't want them to call you an anti-Semite.



All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 07:16:46 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 30, 2014, 10:19:53 PM
Is this satire?

Former Prime Minister Tony Blair wins million dollar Israeli leadership prize

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/4643809/Former-Prime-Minister-Tony-Blair-wins-million-dollar-Israeli-leadership-prize.html


The Middle East peace envoy will receive the Dan David Prize for "his exceptional leadership and steadfast determination in helping to engineer agreements and forge lasting solutions to areas in conflict".
The award is presented by the Dan David Foundation, which is based at Tel Aviv University. Previous recipients include former US presidential candidate and environmental campaigner Al Gore and playwright Tom Stoppard.
A spokesman for Mr Blair said the money will be donated to the former Labour leader's charity for religious understanding.

Mr Blair is an envoy of the international Quartet on the Middle East peace process, which comprises the US, European Union, United Nations and Russia.
His entry as a Dan David laureate on the prize's website hails him as "one of the most outstanding statesmen of our era".

It praises his role in the Northern Ireland peace process and his "steadfast determination and morally courageous leadership" over Kosovo, but there is no mention of the controversial decision to support the US-led invasion of Iraq.

The citation states: "Early in his prime ministership, he came to two beliefs that guide him to today: first, that it is a mistake for the world to wait for America to solve all of the tough questions, and second, that there are some things a state may do within its borders that justify intervention even if the actions do not directly threaten another nation's interests."
The award will be presented in a ceremony on May 17 at Tel Aviv University.
Blair is one of Israel's people. Another is Kagame, the Rwandan butcher.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/31/tony-blair-rwanda-paul-kagame
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-SAgejsFrA
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on July 31, 2014, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.
MS how significant a role has land grabbing and settler encroachment had on Israel being attacked? Is there going to be no acknowledgement that any aggression toward them is primarily down to their aggression in this regard? They have always had the boot on the throat of these people and are incrementally crushing the windpipe. And yet are up in arms when theres a reaction to such oppression. I'm convinced we are looking at what is part of a long term strategy playing out  by Israeli hawks under the mask of self defense. Palestinian hatred for Israel is playing into Israels hands and well the hawks know it. With the death toll factor being at 1 jew to 30 Arabs, the hawks IMO will be happy with their progress.

As I seen one Israeli protesting against his leaders on twitter
'If I was a Palestinian I'd want to fight Israel'

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 08:48:24 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 31, 2014, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.
MS how significant a role has land grabbing and settler encroachment had on Israel being attacked? Is there going to be no acknowledgement that any aggression toward them is primarily down to their aggression in this regard? They have always had the boot on the throat of these people and are incrementally crushing the windpipe. And yet are up in arms when theres a reaction to such oppression. I'm convinced we are looking at what is part of a long term strategy playing out  by Israeli hawks under the mask of self defense. Palestinian hatred for Israel is playing into Israels hands and well the hawks know it. With the death toll factor being at 1 jew to 30 Arabs, the hawks IMO will be happy with their progress.

As I seen one Israeli protesting against his leaders on twitter
'If I was a Palestinian I'd want to fight Israel'

Israel has not been under consistent attack over the last 70 years. It fights wars of choice to test out weapons which it sells on to international buyers. Gaza is a test lab for weapons.

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1405472137/241/10273241_600x400.jpg


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 08:52:38 AM
Child who could not stop crying until he was taken to his dead mother

https://twitter.com/abdellahiAM/status/493924264601329664

Would remind you of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7d0GTQ2ovE
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 09:06:49 AM

Home
Opinion


   





 
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.608118   

   

It's all Hamas' fault, right Israel?

More than 1,200 Gazans have been killed, about 80 percent of them civilians. But Israelis' hands are clean and their consciences are quiet - so quiet you could cry.

By Gideon Levy    |  Jul. 31, 2014 | 5:28 AM |  6


It's so easy to be an Israeli; your tender conscience is pure as the driven snow: Everything is Hamas' fault. The rockets are the fault of Hamas; that can be taken for granted. Hamas started the war, for no reason; that, too, "goes without saying." Hamas is a vicious terrorist organization, beasts in human form, born to kill, fundamentalists – and apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Some 400,000 Palestinians have been displaced. More than 1,200 have been killed, about 80 percent of them civilians, half of these women and children. Around 50 families have been obliterated, their homes bombed with them inside. It has reached the dimensions of a real massacre. But Israelis' hands are clean and their consciences are quiet – so quiet you could cry. It's Hamas' fault.

We'll leave the root causes of this cursed repression and denial to the psychologists. Since the days when Israel accused the Palestinians of killing their own children by means of the Israel Defense Forces, we haven't seen such denial. After incubating for years, the disease is now a raging epidemic whose carriers are now symptomatic. The national conscience hasn't moved a muscle in response to this atrocity, and there are forces working to keep it that way.

But even through the malignant cloud of denial, even understanding how easy it is to blame everything on Hamas — Israel has never had such a convenient enemy, which can be framed for all its sins – we must ask whether everything really is the fault of Hamas. Is Israel genuinely completely innocent? In the face of bleeding, ruined Gaza, the work of Israeli hands, such denial is incomprehensible.

Hamas is a vicious terror organization? How has it been more vicious than the IDF in this war? In that it doesn't "knock on the roof" 80 seconds before bombing a home? That it aims its rockets at civilian populations, just as the IDF does, but less effectively? That it wants to destroy Israel? How many Israelis want to destroy Gaza? Meanwhile, everyone knows who is destroying whom.

Israel's sanctimoniousness reaches a peak in its concern for Gaza's residents: Look at how Hamas oppresses them, cry the Israeli democrats, so solicitous of Palestinian rights. Hamas is tyrannical, but its tyranny is nothing compared to that of Israel, which has subjected the Gaza Strip to a seven-year siege and a 47-year occupation.

What has destroyed Gaza's society and economy is above all the siege, and thanks to those who seek its welfare, who imposed it. Thanks also to those who are worried about its lack of democracy, who are shocked by the corruption, who denounce its leaders for staying in luxury hotels or hiding in bunkers, who are troubled by the enormous sums used for tunnels and rockets instead of playgrounds and after-school activities. Truly, thanks.

What about Israel? Do its leaders live in tents? Aren't enormous sums spent on superfluous submarines and secret explosives, instead of on health, education and welfare? Hamas is fundamentalist? Israel is on the way. Hamas oppresses women? That's bad, but Israel has that too, at least in one large community.

Why did Gazans elect Hamas, instead of a moderate leadership? Because the moderates have been trying for years to achieve something, anything, and all they have received is humiliation and Israeli rejectionism. Has Israel given the Palestinians a reason to choose the Palestine Liberation Organization's route of diplomacy over Hamas' violent resistance? Has the PLO brought them an inch closer to statehood or freedom?

Hamas at least won the release of 1,000 prisoners and also preserved a measure of self-respect, even at the terrible price that the desperate Gazans are now willing to pay. What has Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas brought his people? Nothing. A photo op with Barack Obama.

I'm no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel's attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous. The international community will soon judge this war's atrocities. Hamas may be reprimanded, deservedly, but Israel will be condemned and ostracized far more. And then Israelis will say, 'It's Hamas' fault. And the world will laugh.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2014, 09:20:59 AM
Empathy

This seems to be the latest attempt at winning the media battle, Mark Regev was at it last night with the line that the IDF were more or less helping the Palestinians by smashing the stranglehold Hamas had over them, forcing them to act as human shields and all that.

They've a funny way of going about it, if anything Hamas will emerge stronger out of this.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 09:21:51 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2014, 09:20:59 AM
Empathy

This seems to be the latest attempt at winning the media battle, Mark Regev was at it last night with the line that the IDF were more or less helping the Palestinians by smashing the stranglehold Hamas had over them, forcing them to act as human shields and all that.

They've a funny way of going about it, if anything Hamas will emerge stronger out of this.
Yeah, slaughtering their kids is really above love and respect.
Destroying the water system is about how much Israel cares.
Bombing homes is selfless.
Deliberately targeting UN schools is above all fluffy.
If Israel didn't love the people of Gaza so much it wouldn't control how many calories get into the Strip.
Israel is straight out of 1984.

und Arbeit macht Frei
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 10:03:47 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.
I would be quite up front in that I don't believe in a two state solution, either for reasons of justice or practicality.

As I've said before, that the creation of an imperialistic, religious fundamentalist state by stealing other people's land was allowed to happen was a disastrous historical mistake.

I don't believe in the notion of a Jewish state for a Jewish people no more than I believe in the notion of a Muslim state for a Muslim people, a Catholic state for a Catholic people or a Protestant state for a Protestant people.

The Palestinians cannot destroy the Jewish population that is there now, the Israelis cannot wipe out the Palestinian population (although they're giving it a good shot).

Israeli colonisation of and control of the West Bank now runs so deep that they have made a two state solution unviable. But a two state solution was never their aim, and Benjamin Netanyahu is quite clear on this: "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz392DqMJCW

That's categorical. According to Netanyahu, there will never be a Palestinian state.


In a sane world, a one-state solution, Israel/Palestine, with equal rights for both sides is what should happen, and what I want to see happen.

What are the chances of that? Slim to none. I absolutely believe the vast majority of Palestinians would be very happy to accept that but there's no chance Israel ever will.

A one-state solution would be completely impractical, say its critics. Maybe it might be, maybe not.

But as opposed to the practicality of what's happening now, or the practicality what can only be assumed is Israel's real long-term goal, to ultimately drive the Palestinians out of both the West Bank and Gaza?

This is the situation that Israel has created. A situation where there are seemingly no solutions.



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:29:52 AM
@ Sheehy

"Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form. "

That sentence is complete horseshit.
That's why I say you are on the side of hasbara
And is Israel worth the trashing of international law, the Geneva conventions and the law of war ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?
The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 10:03:47 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.
I would be quite up front in that I don't believe in a two state solution, either for reasons of justice or practicality.

As I've said before, that the creation of an imperialistic, religious fundamentalist state by stealing other people's land was allowed to happen was a disastrous historical mistake.

I don't believe in the notion of a Jewish state for a Jewish people no more than I believe in the notion of a Muslim state for a Muslim people, a Catholic state for a Catholic people or a Protestant state for a Protestant people.

The Palestinians cannot destroy the Jewish population that is there now, the Israelis cannot wipe out the Palestinian population (although they're giving it a good shot).

Israeli colonisation of and control of the West Bank now runs so deep that they have made a two state solution unviable. But a two state solution was never their aim, and Benjamin Netanyahu is quite clear on this: "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz392DqMJCW

That's categorical. According to Netanyahu, there will never be a Palestinian state.


In a sane world, a one-state solution, Israel/Palestine, with equal rights for both sides is what should happen, and what I want to see happen.

What are the chances of that? Slim to none. I absolutely believe the vast majority of Palestinians would be very happy to accept that but there's no chance Israel ever will.

A one-state solution would be completely impractical, say its critics. Maybe it might be, maybe not.

But as opposed to the practicality of what's happening now, or the practicality what can only be assumed is Israel's real long-term goal, to ultimately drive the Palestinians out of both the West Bank and Gaza?

This is the situation that Israel has created. A situation where there are seemingly no solutions.

That is a good response and, unlike Seafoid, I believe you want a one state solution for the right reasons.  However, I have to disagree with you. it is not just impractical.It is close to impossible. I have seen no evidence that Hamas or any of the other Jihadis in the region will ever allow a jewish minority to exist in peace in the caliphate that is their ultimate aim. They will make all the right noises now that they have the eyes of the world on them but they are lying. You only have to look at what is happening with ISIS to see what they will do if they ever get the upper hand.

Also, we all know that Israelies play the same game which is why I am saying that they must be compelled, by force to obey the UN mandate. But it has to be a controlled force not a force bent on their destruction.

I believe the two state solution is is the only solution. If the situation can be normalized between the two states then, possibly, and this would be a long time off, you could revisit the idea of a single state.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:36:48 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?

Seafoid is not interested in a lasting solution. This what anti-semites are all about.

Zionist this, hasbara that blah, blah...

In the end Its all about  jew hating with him and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is just a vehicle for that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:37:05 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 10:03:47 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.
I would be quite up front in that I don't believe in a two state solution, either for reasons of justice or practicality.

As I've said before, that the creation of an imperialistic, religious fundamentalist state by stealing other people's land was allowed to happen was a disastrous historical mistake.

I don't believe in the notion of a Jewish state for a Jewish people no more than I believe in the notion of a Muslim state for a Muslim people, a Catholic state for a Catholic people or a Protestant state for a Protestant people.

The Palestinians cannot destroy the Jewish population that is there now, the Israelis cannot wipe out the Palestinian population (although they're giving it a good shot).

Israeli colonisation of and control of the West Bank now runs so deep that they have made a two state solution unviable. But a two state solution was never their aim, and Benjamin Netanyahu is quite clear on this: "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz392DqMJCW

That's categorical. According to Netanyahu, there will never be a Palestinian state.


In a sane world, a one-state solution, Israel/Palestine, with equal rights for both sides is what should happen, and what I want to see happen.

What are the chances of that? Slim to none. I absolutely believe the vast majority of Palestinians would be very happy to accept that but there's no chance Israel ever will.

A one-state solution would be completely impractical, say its critics. Maybe it might be, maybe not.

But as opposed to the practicality of what's happening now, or the practicality what can only be assumed is Israel's real long-term goal, to ultimately drive the Palestinians out of both the West Bank and Gaza?

This is the situation that Israel has created. A situation where there are seemingly no solutions.

That is a good response and, unlike Seafoid, I believe you want a one state solution for the right reasons.  However, I have to disagree with you. it is not just impractical.It is close to impossible. I have seen no evidence that Hamas or any of the other Jihadis in the region will ever allow a jewish minority to exist in peace in the caliphate that is their ultimate aim. They will make all the right noises now that they have the eyes of the world on them but they are lying. You only have to look at what is happening with ISIS to see what they will do if they ever get the upper hand.

Also, we all know that Israelies play the same game which is why I am saying that they must be compelled, by force to obey the UN mandate. But it has to be a controlled force not a force bent on their destruction.

I believe the two state solution is is the only solution. If the situation can be normalized between the two states then, possibly, and this would be a long time off, you could revisit the idea of a single state.
How are you going to deal with AIPAC in your master plan ?  100/100 US senators bought. Dying to hear.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 10:03:47 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.
I would be quite up front in that I don't believe in a two state solution, either for reasons of justice or practicality.

As I've said before, that the creation of an imperialistic, religious fundamentalist state by stealing other people's land was allowed to happen was a disastrous historical mistake.

I don't believe in the notion of a Jewish state for a Jewish people no more than I believe in the notion of a Muslim state for a Muslim people, a Catholic state for a Catholic people or a Protestant state for a Protestant people.

The Palestinians cannot destroy the Jewish population that is there now, the Israelis cannot wipe out the Palestinian population (although they're giving it a good shot).

Israeli colonisation of and control of the West Bank now runs so deep that they have made a two state solution unviable. But a two state solution was never their aim, and Benjamin Netanyahu is quite clear on this: "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz392DqMJCW

That's categorical. According to Netanyahu, there will never be a Palestinian state.


In a sane world, a one-state solution, Israel/Palestine, with equal rights for both sides is what should happen, and what I want to see happen.

What are the chances of that? Slim to none. I absolutely believe the vast majority of Palestinians would be very happy to accept that but there's no chance Israel ever will.

A one-state solution would be completely impractical, say its critics. Maybe it might be, maybe not.

But as opposed to the practicality of what's happening now, or the practicality what can only be assumed is Israel's real long-term goal, to ultimately drive the Palestinians out of both the West Bank and Gaza?

This is the situation that Israel has created. A situation where there are seemingly no solutions.

That is a good response and, unlike Seafoid, I believe you want a one state solution for the right reasons.  However, I have to disagree with you. it is not just impractical.It is close to impossible. I have seen no evidence that Hamas or any of the other Jihadis in the region will ever allow a jewish minority to exist in peace in the caliphate that is their ultimate aim. They will make all the right noises now that they have the eyes of the world on them but they are lying. You only have to look at what is happening with ISIS to see what they will do if they ever get the upper hand.

Also, we all know that Israelies play the same game which is why I am saying that they must be compelled, by force to obey the UN mandate. But it has to be a controlled force not a force bent on their destruction.

I believe the two state solution is is the only solution. If the situation can be normalized between the two states then, possibly, and this would be a long time off, you could revisit the idea of a single state.
There is no possibility of a two state solution at this stage, in my view. There is no evidence that Israel has ever genuinely wanted this. Even under Rabin during the Oslo process, their negotiations were disingenuous. Oslo was merely a bridge for more colonisation.

The Palestinians under Arafat agreed to a deal that gave Israel far, far more than it did themselves. Around this time, Israel was funding Hamas in an attempt to destabilise Arafat's PLO.

That Israel would agree to a genuine two state solution (not the absolute piss take they "offered" in 2000) now, under the psychotic Netanyahu or the other psychopaths who will no doubt replace him in future years, is utter fantasy.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 10:03:47 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on July 30, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
Mike
Could you explain at what point in the last 70 years would the Palestinians ever have felt they had the ability to peacefully self determine their future?

The answer is there has been no point. Likewise, there has been no point in the last 70 years that the Israelies have not been under attack in some form.

This is why I think the only solution is an armed, international  intervention to ensure both sides get what the claim they are looking for. I don't think either state will exist by the time sanctions have the required effect. They will obliterate each other.

One problem is that many people don't believe in the two state solution but wont actually state their position. I have only seen a couple of responses to AZoffaly's post. I think its impossible for the international community to help solve this issue if there is no clarity on what the path forward is and people refuse to take a responsible stance. This intellectual dishonesty is reflected on this board.
I would be quite up front in that I don't believe in a two state solution, either for reasons of justice or practicality.

As I've said before, that the creation of an imperialistic, religious fundamentalist state by stealing other people's land was allowed to happen was a disastrous historical mistake.

I don't believe in the notion of a Jewish state for a Jewish people no more than I believe in the notion of a Muslim state for a Muslim people, a Catholic state for a Catholic people or a Protestant state for a Protestant people.

The Palestinians cannot destroy the Jewish population that is there now, the Israelis cannot wipe out the Palestinian population (although they're giving it a good shot).

Israeli colonisation of and control of the West Bank now runs so deep that they have made a two state solution unviable. But a two state solution was never their aim, and Benjamin Netanyahu is quite clear on this: "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz392DqMJCW

That's categorical. According to Netanyahu, there will never be a Palestinian state.


In a sane world, a one-state solution, Israel/Palestine, with equal rights for both sides is what should happen, and what I want to see happen.

What are the chances of that? Slim to none. I absolutely believe the vast majority of Palestinians would be very happy to accept that but there's no chance Israel ever will.

A one-state solution would be completely impractical, say its critics. Maybe it might be, maybe not.

But as opposed to the practicality of what's happening now, or the practicality what can only be assumed is Israel's real long-term goal, to ultimately drive the Palestinians out of both the West Bank and Gaza?

This is the situation that Israel has created. A situation where there are seemingly no solutions.

That is a good response and, unlike Seafoid, I believe you want a one state solution for the right reasons.  However, I have to disagree with you. it is not just impractical.It is close to impossible. I have seen no evidence that Hamas or any of the other Jihadis in the region will ever allow a jewish minority to exist in peace in the caliphate that is their ultimate aim. They will make all the right noises now that they have the eyes of the world on them but they are lying. You only have to look at what is happening with ISIS to see what they will do if they ever get the upper hand.

Also, we all know that Israelies play the same game which is why I am saying that they must be compelled, by force to obey the UN mandate. But it has to be a controlled force not a force bent on their destruction.

I believe the two state solution is is the only solution. If the situation can be normalized between the two states then, possibly, and this would be a long time off, you could revisit the idea of a single state.
There is no possibility of a two state solution at this stage, in my view. There is no evidence that Israel has ever genuinely wanted this. Even under Rabin during the Oslo process, their negotiations were disingenuous. Oslo was merely a bridge for more colonisation.

The Palestinians under Arafat agreed to a deal that gave Israel far, far more than it did themselves. Around this time, Israel was funding Hamas in an attempt to destabilise Arafat's PLO.

That Israel would agree to a genuine two state solution (not the absolute piss take they "offered" in 2000) now, under the psychotic Netanyahu or the other psychopaths who will no doubt replace him in future years, is utter fantasy.

Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Keep Seafoid and GHD away from it though. You will never convince anyone , especially in the US, if you have people like that on your side. People just instinctively know what they are about even if they manage to avoid outbursts like GHD is prone to make.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:02:38 AM
AIPAC

What about AIPAC, Sheehy ?

2 state solutions are as likely as Kerry winning the 5 in a row in 1982 sometime in the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxgju-2xbfQ
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:58:16 AM


Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.


Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
Sheehy

As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Why? Palestinian self determination means what it says on the tin. Who are you to say what's acceptable for the Palestinian people ? Are you some sort of Caliph ?

What has Fatah delivered for the Palestinians ? Nothing. why? Because Israel continues to build settlements.

If Israel is interested in 2 states why does it build settlements ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
Sheehy

As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Why? Palestinian self determination means what it says on the tin. Who are you to say what's acceptable for the Palestinian people ? Are you some sort of Caliph ?

What has Fatah delivered for the Palestinians ? Nothing. why? Because Israel continues to build settlements.

If Israel is interested in 2 states why does it build settlements ?

I think the world and its dog knows Israel doesn't want a two state solution whether its workable or not.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:58:16 AM


Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.


Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.
Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?
The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:44:58 AM
It is a complete clusterfuck

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.608138

"Jewish Agency Chairman Natan Sharansky warned last week that "we are seeing the beginning of the end of Jewish history in Europe," in an op-ed published in the U.K.'s Jewish Chronicle last week.
Sharansky joins a number of European figures, including French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, to warn about the alarming rise of anti-Semitism on the continent since the beginning of Israel's military operation in Gaza on July 8."

and it's all my and GHD's fault. Tsk tsk
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?
The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.
do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:58:16 AM


Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.


Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.
Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?
Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:56:50 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:58:16 AM


Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.


Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.
Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?
Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.
I would agree. They have to see some economic impact .There is no way the status quo is acceptable going forward. "Mowing the lawn" has to stop.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:05:56 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 11:44:18 AM

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

Americans will not change their stance unless the security issue is addressed , irrespective of what influence AIPAC exerts.

Seafoid is clueless about Americans and what they will or will not do. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on July 31, 2014, 12:13:35 PM
Security is a smoke screen argument IMO Mike as Israel progresses toward its ultimate aim. A 2 state solution is not on theior road map. I think they are well aware that the collateral damage (certainly on a death toll factor of 1:30 any military machine would take it) on their own side is a price worth paying for and actually provides them with the excuse they provide as they continue to press the foot on the wind pipe of the Palestinian people.

Israel does not want peace and security without the territory they are stealing.

(http://joshberer.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/map12_move_borders.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:58:16 AM


Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.


Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.
Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?
Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?
The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.
do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10
Straw man. I didn't wasy they were helping.
I asked asked what removing their influence will do?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on July 31, 2014, 12:36:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:58:16 AM


Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.


Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.
Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?
Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.

Credit where its due - lols
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:45:31 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:05:56 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 11:44:18 AM

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

Americans will not change their stance unless the security issue is addressed , irrespective of what influence AIPAC exerts.

Seafoid is clueless about Americans and what they will or will not do.
Most Americans are decent people and if they get decent information they usually don't support oppression.
Which is why the hasbara is so important.
But even young Jews are turning away from Israel now.

There is a fundamental tension between Jewish values and Israeli cruelty that will eventually bring the house of Zionism  down. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:46:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?
The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.
do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10
Straw man. I didn't wasy they were helping.
I asked asked what removing their influence will do?
Introduce accountability.
AIPAC ensure impunity. That is the worst thing for Israel.
They take the wrong decisions because they know they will be shielded from the consequences.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Sidney on July 31, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 10:58:16 AM


Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.


Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.
Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?
Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.
Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: EC Unique on July 31, 2014, 12:52:26 PM
(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/263/2/2/boycott_israeli_goods_by_quadraro-d47xjwa.png)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 12:56:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:46:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?
The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.
do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10
Straw man. I didn't wasy they were helping.
I asked asked what removing their influence will do?
Introduce accountability.
AIPAC ensure impunity. That is the worst thing for Israel.
They take the wrong decisions because they know they will be shielded from the consequences.
I can see how removing US protection will allow UN resolutions to go through but I think, Lobbyists or not, the US will still see the IDF as a market for their armaments.
If World condemnations and sanctions can be brought to bear on Israel where do they go politically? Is a 1 state solution the route forward.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on July 31, 2014, 01:10:49 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2014, 12:52:26 PM
(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/263/2/2/boycott_israeli_goods_by_quadraro-d47xjwa.png)

Arsenal Football Club?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 01:13:53 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 12:56:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:46:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 11:45:52 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2014, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 30, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.
Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.
What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.
International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?
The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.
do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10
Straw man. I didn't wasy they were helping.
I asked asked what removing their influence will do?
Introduce accountability.
AIPAC ensure impunity. That is the worst thing for Israel.
They take the wrong decisions because they know they will be shielded from the consequences.
I can see how removing US protection will allow UN resolutions to go through but I think, Lobbyists or not, the US will still see the IDF as a market for their armaments.
If World condemnations and sanctions can be brought to bear on Israel where do they go politically? Is a 1 state solution the route forward.
I dunno. Israel isn't such a big market compared to Asia . The lobby gives it a profile it wouldn't have on its own.
They need an unsuccessful war to change course, probably.
2 states would be best but they'll have to root out the settlers.

Zionism is a bit like the celtic tiger. Built on very dodgy assumptions, too big to fail and a mess when it eventually comes face to face with reality. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2014, 01:18:15 PM
Israel doesn't buy armaments of the US, they're given them in the form of aid.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 01:31:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:16:27 PM

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.
Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 01:31:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:16:27 PM

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.
Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.

Prove it. I mean really prove it. Prove that last month I was paid by an Israeli company.
Otherwise keep on embarrassing yourself.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 01:47:39 PM
"Seafoid is clueless about Americans and what they will or will not do. "

This is what I love about Sheehy. He must have gone over before there were telephones.
you can't know as much as he does because he has American TV on in his sitting room.
And he listens to it avidly. and you don't. So you can't possibly know anything.
There is no other valid source of information. 
And it's not possible to subscribe to any American magazines or follow American news online.

God love him.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 02:28:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 01:31:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:16:27 PM

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.
Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.

Prove it. I mean really prove it. Prove that last month I was paid by an Israeli company.
Otherwise keep on embarrassing yourself.

calm down habibi. Jesus , you will burst a blood vessel if you keep losing the rag like this.

Obviously I can't "prove" that you work for an Israeli company. Perhaps you could just clarify who the Israeli work colleagues are so ? and what business brings you to Israel so often. No need for any revealing details of course , just something, general along the lines of "I work for a multinational that works in the area of  risk assessment and happens to have an office in Israel but its not an actual Israeli company"

you know, just something like that. If you were to do that then I'd have no problem with not saying you work for an Israeli company.

However, it still leaves you in a bind. Whatever way you spin it you are making a living off Israel which should be a big no-no for someone that puts your level of effort into hating the place.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on July 31, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
Decent Turn out at the Dail for the Vigil. Popped down on my lunch.

March on Saturday in the city centre if anyone is around.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 02:29:12 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/31/gaza-crisis-israel-calls-up-reservists-as-it-maintains-offensive-live-coverage

I just spoke to Dr Medhat Abbas, director general of the ministry of health in Gaza, who said the health system will collapse if things continue as they are.
He said:
Yesterday, after the massacre of Shujai'iya, where 16 people were killed and 200 were wounded, the victims were taken to Shifa hospital, which is the biggest hospital of the Gaza strip. I don't know how to describe ...the health professionals in the hospital were not enough to deal with this large number of victims at once.
All of the operating rooms were full of patients, some operating rooms were receiving two patients at once ...some other patients had surgery in the corridors and if you go to the departments of this hospital, Shifa hospital, you will find that two patients are sleeping in one bed and some other patients are sleeping in corridors. Also, 30 patients are supposed to be discharged from the hospital to go home but because they have been displaced from their homes, they have nowhere to go. We can't discharge them.
Abbas called for an immediate lifting of the blockade of Gaza and international intervention to bring about the end of the offensive, warning that otherwise the health system would definitely collapse.


So the health system will collapse. and together with the water system people will start dying of infectious disease.
And 95% of Israeli Jews say this is justified.

God help Israel.
And this is going to be remembered for a very, very long time, as will the complicity of the leaders of the major Jewish organisations in the US.
And what is really sad is that Zionism is not Judaism at all. It just took the right to speak on behalf of all Jews.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 01:47:39 PM
"Seafoid is clueless about Americans and what they will or will not do. "

This is what I love about Sheehy. He must have gone over before there were telephones.
you can't know as much as he does because he has American TV on in his sitting room.
And he listens to it avidly. and you don't. So you can't possibly know anything.
There is no other valid source of information. 
And it's not possible to subscribe to any American magazines or follow American news online.

God love him.

I suppose it would be like somebody saying that the have lived in Egypt and are therefore more qualified to understand what Egyptians think.

You would not know anyone like that would you, habibi ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 02:30:26 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 02:28:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 01:31:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:16:27 PM

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.
Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.

Prove it. I mean really prove it. Prove that last month I was paid by an Israeli company.
Otherwise keep on embarrassing yourself.

calm down habibi. Jesus , you will burst a blood vessel if you keep losing the rag like this.

Obviously I can't "prove" that you work for an Israeli company. Perhaps you could just clarify who the Israeli work colleagues are so ? and what business brings you to Israel so often. No need for any revealing details of course , just something, general along the lines of "I work for a multinational that works in the area of  risk assessment and happens to have an office in Israel but its not an actual Israeli company"

you know, just something like that. If you were to do that then I'd have no problem with not saying you work for an Israeli company.

However, it still leaves you in a bind. Whatever way you spin it you are making a living off Israel which should be a big no-no for someone that puts your level of effort into hating the place.

I can say that you post in a negligee.
Why do you post in a negligee ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2014, 02:30:47 PM
I was in the states a few times after 9/11, New York to be precise as the US were invading Iraq for the second time and TBH the Americans and Irish Americans really were kept in the dark about what was actually happening by the media.
They'd all seen the great clips of the news reporter riding on the side of the tank and the pulling down off Saddams statue and thought the job was done.
Then you'd tell them about some of the fatalities on the American side the BBC would be reporting and they'd never have heard of it, so I wouldn't be surprised that the average American hasn't the first clue about what happening in Gaza, they'll know plenty about what is happening in Ukraine though!

Social media may be breaking that filter, but if the average middle aged american isn't on twitter or some other type medium and reliant on the TV and print media they'll not have a clue.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 02:40:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 02:30:26 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 02:28:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 01:31:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 12:16:27 PM

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.
Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.

Prove it. I mean really prove it. Prove that last month I was paid by an Israeli company.
Otherwise keep on embarrassing yourself.

calm down habibi. Jesus , you will burst a blood vessel if you keep losing the rag like this.

Obviously I can't "prove" that you work for an Israeli company. Perhaps you could just clarify who the Israeli work colleagues are so ? and what business brings you to Israel so often. No need for any revealing details of course , just something, general along the lines of "I work for a multinational that works in the area of  risk assessment and happens to have an office in Israel but its not an actual Israeli company"

you know, just something like that. If you were to do that then I'd have no problem with not saying you work for an Israeli company.

However, it still leaves you in a bind. Whatever way you spin it you are making a living off Israel which should be a big no-no for someone that puts your level of effort into hating the place.

I can say that you post in a negligee.
Why do you post in a negligee ?

Obsessing about S&M clubs in Tel Aviv, fantasizing about other posters in negligee's.

Bloody hell Seafoid, this jew hating has had some strange side effects on you !
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 31, 2014, 02:45:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2014, 02:29:12 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/31/gaza-crisis-israel-calls-up-reservists-as-it-maintains-offensive-live-coverage

I just spoke to Dr Medhat Abbas, director general of the ministry of health in Gaza, who said the health system will collapse if things continue as they are.
He said:
Yesterday, after the massacre of Shujai'iya, where 16 people were killed and 200 were wounded, the victims were taken to Shifa hospital, which is the biggest hospital of the Gaza strip. I don't know how to describe ...the health professionals in the hospital were not enough to deal with this large number of victims at once.
All of the operating rooms were full of patients, some operating rooms were receiving two patients at once ...some other patients had surgery in the corridors and if you go to the departments of this hospital, Shifa hospital, you will find that two patients are sleeping in one bed and some other patients are sleeping in corridors. Also, 30 patients are supposed to be discharged from the hospital to go home but because they have been displaced from their homes, they have nowhere to go. We can't discharge them.
Abbas called for an immediate lifting of the blockade of Gaza and international intervention to bring about the end of the offensive, warning that otherwise the health system would definitely collapse.


So the health system will collapse. and together with the water system people will start dying of infectious disease.
And 95% of Israeli Jews say this is justified.

God help Israel.
And this is going to be remembered for a very, very long time, as will the complicity of the leaders of the major Jewish organisations in the US.
And what is really sad is that Zionism is not Judaism at all. It just took the right to speak on behalf of all Jews.

Glad to see you have accepted what I have been saying.

There is hope for you yet.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 31, 2014, 07:30:52 PM
Just watching the channel 4 news now and an interview with 2 mothers, one a Palestinian and one an Israeli. Two things struck me about the interview. Only one of them was wearing body armour and the Israeli was actually an American.

Oh and the yank said that 80% of casualties were actually Hamas fighers. And that while the pictures of dead women and children were terrible, there was a need to 'counter' this.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 31, 2014, 08:31:34 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2014, 02:30:47 PM
Social media may be breaking that filter, but if the average middle aged american isn't on twitter or some other type medium and reliant on the TV and print media they'll not have a clue.

I've unfriended about 4 people on FB over this. They just keep repeating the same old zionist talking points.

I've come to realise that there's a list of things that's acceptable to say in America:


Anything that strays from that is viewed like breaking wind in company. 

In the last few weeks another few talking points have been repeated over and over until they have become accepted wisdom, and people feel very smug and clever when they repeat them:


The shocking thing about such half-baked lies is how quickly they've become accepted as fact. It's a classic case of "repeat a lie over and over again until it becomes accepted as true."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on July 31, 2014, 08:47:20 PM
Has Peter Robinson mentioned this association recently?

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/stormont-meeting-launches-dup-friends-of-israel-group-1-6114099
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 31, 2014, 11:42:36 PM
What an amazing evening in Dungannon where my friend from Gaza Yousef Al Helou spoke to a crowd of 300+

Yousef spoke about the reality on the ground now back home, and how his 3 children and wife are living a nightmare not knowing if they will survive the next hour. Just before we left to go out, he got a message from his wife to say the house next to where they are staying was hit by an airstrike. Thankfully no one was there. It was so humbling to hear him speak from the heart.

Earlier in the day I contacted Roger Waters (founding member of Pink Floyd)  through a mutal friend. I told him Bernadette McAliskey was going to speak and we were going to play his recording of "We Shall Overcome". He put together a poem that Bernadette read out, and said he was honored to have her speak on his behalf. Following the poem, the crowd sang "We Shall Overcome" in the same spot where it was sang over 40 years ago when the Civil Rights Movement was formed.

We had a collection to raise money that Yousef will put to work immediatley through a charity on the ground in Gaza. £1,500 was raised, and he was humbled beyond words. And so was I.

A Message From Roger Waters:

ONE RIVER

When the wind scythes through the crop
And good men fall
And children
Soft in mothers arms
Cringe unbelieving
From the desperados casual blade
My Father, distant now
But live and warm and strong
In uniform tobacco haze
Speaks out.

My son, he says.
Stay not the passion of your loss
But rather keen and hone its edge
That, You may never turn away
Numb, brute, from bets too difficult to hedge.

What price the child?
Which?
Yours or mine?
This one at home?
The baby bird,
in whistling bowls of pasta worms.
Or
That one on TV

Limp and bloodied on the Gazan shore
To fail to feel that other fathers loss
Denies connections forged in filial blood
And handed banner bright from man to boy
In pride of place, loin strong, bereft of pettiness and rancour.

So
Cup your tears, my father says
Cup that salt badge of strife
It flows from but one river
It was on that my son
I bet my life.

So!
We shall not stand by Silent and indifferent.
We will not be still
We will gather on street corners
We will chain ourselves to railings
We will throw ourselves in front of kings horses
We will speak the truth
We will not be cowed by the bully boys who pose and fiddle on the hill.

Shoulder to shoulder, man, woman and child
Arms linked, we will remember our dead
And the words of our teachers,

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you  win."

Will ring in our ears.

We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome one day
Deep in my heart
I do believe
That we shall overcome one day.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10593170_10203109701837620_7618877748650692860_n.jpg)

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 01, 2014, 01:59:11 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 31, 2014, 11:42:36 PM
What an amazing evening in Dungannon where my friend from Gaza Yousef Al Helou spoke to a crowd of 300+

Yousef spoke about the reality on the ground now back home, and how his 3 children and wife are living a nightmare not knowing if they will survive the next hour. Just before we left to go out, he got a message from his wife to say the house next to where they are staying was hit by an airstrike. Thankfully no one was there. It was so humbling to hear him speak from the heart.

Earlier in the day I contacted Roger Waters (founding member of Pink Floyd)  through a mutal friend. I told him Bernadette McAliskey was going to speak and we were going to play his recording of "We Shall Overcome". He put together a poem that Bernadette read out, and said he was honored to have her speak on his behalf. Following the poem, the crowd sang "We Shall Overcome" in the same spot where it was sang over 40 years ago when the Civil Rights Movement was formed.

We had a collection to raise money that Yousef will put to work immediatley through a charity on the ground in Gaza. £1,500 was raised, and he was humbled beyond words. And so was I.

A Message From Roger Waters:

ONE RIVER

When the wind scythes through the crop
And good men fall
And children
Soft in mothers arms
Cringe unbelieving
From the desperados casual blade
My Father, distant now
But live and warm and strong
In uniform tobacco haze
Speaks out.

My son, he says.
Stay not the passion of your loss
But rather keen and hone its edge
That, You may never turn away
Numb, brute, from bets too difficult to hedge.

What price the child?
Which?
Yours or mine?
This one at home?
The baby bird,
in whistling bowls of pasta worms.
Or
That one on TV

Limp and bloodied on the Gazan shore
To fail to feel that other fathers loss
Denies connections forged in filial blood
And handed banner bright from man to boy
In pride of place, loin strong, bereft of pettiness and rancour.

So
Cup your tears, my father says
Cup that salt badge of strife
It flows from but one river
It was on that my son
I bet my life.

So!
We shall not stand by Silent and indifferent.
We will not be still
We will gather on street corners
We will chain ourselves to railings
We will throw ourselves in front of kings horses
We will speak the truth
We will not be cowed by the bully boys who pose and fiddle on the hill.

Shoulder to shoulder, man, woman and child
Arms linked, we will remember our dead
And the words of our teachers,

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you  win."

Will ring in our ears.

We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome one day
Deep in my heart
I do believe
That we shall overcome one day.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10593170_10203109701837620_7618877748650692860_n.jpg)

GHD

Nar laga Dia sibh. Roger Waters is very impressive- off the scale compared to Bono.


Very interesting stats here

http://viableopposition.blogspot.ca/2014/07/gaza-daily-major-incidents-report.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 01, 2014, 03:20:46 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 31, 2014, 08:31:34 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2014, 02:30:47 PM
Social media may be breaking that filter, but if the average middle aged american isn't on twitter or some other type medium and reliant on the TV and print media they'll not have a clue.

I've unfriended about 4 people on FB over this. They just keep repeating the same old zionist talking points.

I've come to realise that there's a list of things that's acceptable to say in America:


  • I believe in God
  • I am a Christian
  • I support our troops
  • Thank you for your military service
  • I stand with Israel
  • Israel has a right to exist
  • Israel has a right to defend itself

Anything that strays from that is viewed like breaking wind in company. 

In the last few weeks another few talking points have been repeated over and over until they have become accepted wisdom, and people feel very smug and clever when they repeat them:


  • Israel uses its weapons to defend its people, Hamas uses its people to defend its weapons
  • Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties, unlike Hamas

The shocking thing about such half-baked lies is how quickly they've become accepted as fact. It's a classic case of "repeat a lie over and over again until it becomes accepted as true."

It's none of my business but I think the last thing you should do is unfriend them. You can't blame people for believing the only angle they are presented with. FaceBook and Twitter allow them to see around the US media spin and you are ideally placed to open their minds. The Jon Snow videos are ideal for a US audience and the Australian one on child torture should get them asking questions. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 01, 2014, 04:06:26 AM
You might be right, Mupp. Today I had my ex (who happens to be Jewish) send me a link to a pro-Israeli piece. I tried to read it, stuck it out through the racist comments about people "wearing beards" but when I got as far as "sacrificing his nation's own children" I just had to stop reading. And I told her so. Haven't unfriended her yet, but I get the impression she's worked up about this and I'm sure it bugs her that I've changed my profile pic to a photo of me holding a Palestinian flag at Saturday's protest.

Maybe if she digs a bit deeper and does her homework she might come around.  She didn't grow up with all the Jewish traditions, it's something she's decided to get into lately, and probably thinks that if you're a Jew then you also have to be a Zionist, which ain't necessarily so.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on August 01, 2014, 09:28:37 AM
Seems if your a Jew or a bitter loyalist you have a Zionist perspective. Amazing how both have difficulty understanding what it must be like to be the oppressed community and consider the otherwise unthinkable options available to these people when they see what is theirs being taken away in broad political daylight year after year after year. Its sick
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 09:48:22 AM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 31, 2014, 08:47:20 PM
Has Peter Robinson mentioned this association recently?

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/stormont-meeting-launches-dup-friends-of-israel-group-1-6114099

The DUP were not the only party that entertained this Zionist at Stormont a couple of weeks ago..........
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Sidney on August 01, 2014, 10:39:44 AM
"72 hour ceasefire" already broken and Israel is back at it again.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 10:52:44 AM
Quote from: Sidney on August 01, 2014, 10:39:44 AM
"72 hour ceasefire" already broken and Israel is back at it again.


The blame game will begin, but its so sad that it didn't hold as so many people need aid relief and there are still an unknown amout of bodies to be recovered. Israel do not want a ceasefire as the public are still baying for more blood.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 01, 2014, 11:23:40 AM
What proportion of the Israeli death toll is from National Service?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on August 01, 2014, 11:41:21 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 10:52:44 AM
Quote from: Sidney on August 01, 2014, 10:39:44 AM
"72 hour ceasefire" already broken and Israel is back at it again.


The blame game will begin, but its so sad that it didn't hold as so many people need aid relief and there are still an unknown amout of bodies to be recovered. Israel do not want a ceasefire as the public are still baying for more blood.

But then why do Hamas continue as well and play into the IDF's hands or is there an acceptance within Hamas that its all or nothing at this stage?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on August 01, 2014, 12:12:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 01, 2014, 11:23:40 AM
What proportion of the Israeli death toll is from National Service?

As of 30 July there were 3 Civilians and 56 IDF Killed on the Israeli side. I think the total is 63 now though.

Reporting on the News that the Palestinian Militants have captured an Israeli soldier... things can only get worse from here!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on August 01, 2014, 12:17:21 PM
So 27 palestinians are killed in israeli shelling but the bbc headline is about the 1 israeli soldier who is captured?

Some of those tories have been complaing about israel deeming the life of an israeli to be of higher values than the life of a palestinian. Maybe they should look at their own media for the same behaviour.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: NAG1 on August 01, 2014, 12:21:14 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 01, 2014, 12:12:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 01, 2014, 11:23:40 AM
What proportion of the Israeli death toll is from National Service?

As of 30 July there were 3 Civilians and 56 IDF Killed on the Israeli side. I think the total is 63 now though.

Reporting on the News that the Palestinian Militants have captured an Israeli soldier... things can only get worse from here!

This gives the Israelis the perfect excuse as if they need another one to intensify the offensive and flatten large parts of Gazza.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 12:36:03 PM
A high ranking Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) officer was captured before the ceasefire and now the IOF have gone on a mass killing spree. Over 70 dead and hundreds injured. Israel have gone mad, but then again, they have always been mad.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on August 01, 2014, 12:37:08 PM
I've seen the following quoted in several news sources even today;

Israel launched its offensive in Hamas Islamist-dominated Gaza on July 8th, unleashing air and naval bombardments in response to a surge of cross-border rocket attacks. Tanks and infantry pushed into the territory of 1.8 million on July 17th.


Has this not been proved to be incorrect as Israel launched its offensive after the murder of three Israeli teenagers which they incorrectly blamed Hamas for?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on August 01, 2014, 02:21:32 PM
The "reason" has been changing all the time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksk3Q7gu0BI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksk3Q7gu0BI&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on August 01, 2014, 02:29:51 PM
BBC Know who's fault it is!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28606099
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 01, 2014, 03:03:18 PM
What the fvck did those stupid Hamas cvnts think was going to happen if they kidnapped a soldier around the time of the truce. (Exact timing and circumstances unknown)


The Israelis don't give a flying fvck....they don't care if they kill their own guy trying to get him back

I absolutely despair at this thing coming to any kind of a conclusion

The slant that the Israelis are putting on the tunnels is that they were shocked at the extent of them and that Hamas were planning mass murder in Israel using the tunnels

Whether that's $hite or not is TBD, but that's the line that is getting g them the full backing of the Israeli peoe

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on August 01, 2014, 03:05:05 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 12:36:03 PM
A high ranking Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) officer was captured before the ceasefire and now the IOF have gone on a mass killing spree. Over 70 dead and hundreds injured. Israel have gone mad, but then again, they have always been mad.
Was he not captured after the ceasefire began?
I thought the IDFl were continuing to search and destroy tunnels (in violation of the ceasefire) and had only stopped bombing (their interpretation of a ceasefire).
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 01, 2014, 03:10:55 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 01, 2014, 03:05:05 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 12:36:03 PM
A high ranking Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) officer was captured before the ceasefire and now the IOF have gone on a mass killing spree. Over 70 dead and hundreds injured. Israel have gone mad, but then again, they have always been mad.
Was he not captured after the ceasefire began?
I thought the IDFl were continuing to search and destroy tunnels (in violation of the ceasefire) and had only stopped bombing (their interpretation of a ceasefire).


Who knows.....the Israelis will say one thing and Hamas another
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on August 01, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
What seems to be coming out is that they were adhering to the Ceasefire (the terms of which I am uncertain of) but decommissioning a tunnel then a fuckload of Palestinians appeared through it and it all kicked off culminating in the Palestinians capturing a soldier!!

Bottom line is Hamas are giving Israel a rod to beat them with and in turn Israel are whacking them with a f**king bulldozer!!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 01, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
What seems to be coming out is that they were adhering to the Ceasefire (the terms of which I am uncertain of) but decommissioning a tunnel then a fuckload of Palestinians appeared through it and it all kicked off culminating in the Palestinians capturing a soldier!!

Bottom line is Hamas are giving Israel a rod to beat them with and in turn Israel are whacking them with a f**king bulldozer!!

Bottom line is Hamas and other resistance groups are defending their people and Israel are whacking them with bulldozers sponsored and supported by Invest NI and ALL parties to the NI Executive. Eternal shame on them as they cry crocidile tears at protests around the country. They make my blood boil.

This latest round of Genocide has fcuk all to do with rockets, tunnells, Hamas, or anything else. Israel have been slaughtering thousands of Palestinians since 1948. They want the land, and they use every excuse under the sun to carry out this ethnic cleansing and Genocide.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:31:10 PM
Al Shifa hospital is been evacuated after Israel said they are going to attack it. Motherfcukers

Dr at the hospital: "Reports about Shifa hospital being ordered to evacuate. Let me tell you this: Any stupid targeting of it is going to leave thousands dead"

3 paramedics killed as an ambulance hit directly by Israeli raid in Rafah, south of Gaza

100 martyred in East Rafah and more than 250 injured

Four Palestinians killed in a targeted car in Gaza city.

Channel 4 News understands that the soldier is from a family of British Jewish immigrants. It is also understand that he is a cousin – either second or third – of Israeli's defence minister, Moshe Ya'alon.

http://www.channel4.com/news/gaza-israeli-soldier-british-captured-hamas-ceasefire
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 01, 2014, 03:32:27 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 01, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
What seems to be coming out is that they were adhering to the Ceasefire (the terms of which I am uncertain of) but decommissioning a tunnel then a fuckload of Palestinians appeared through it and it all kicked off culminating in the Palestinians capturing a soldier!!

Bottom line is Hamas are giving Israel a rod to beat them with and in turn Israel are whacking them with a f**king bulldozer!!

Bottom line is Hamas and other resistance groups are defending their people and Israel are whacking them with bulldozers sponsored and supported by Invest NI and ALL parties to the NI Executive. Eternal shame on them as they cry crocidile tears at protests around the country. They make my blood boil.

This latest round of Genocide has fcuk all to do with rockets, tunnells, Hamas, or anything else. Israel have been slaughtering thousands of Palestinians since 1948. They want the land, and they use every excuse under the sun to carry out this ethnic cleansing and Genocide.

Question for you GHD-based on this comment, do you think Israel has a right to exist

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:37:16 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 03:32:27 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 01, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
What seems to be coming out is that they were adhering to the Ceasefire (the terms of which I am uncertain of) but decommissioning a tunnel then a fuckload of Palestinians appeared through it and it all kicked off culminating in the Palestinians capturing a soldier!!

Bottom line is Hamas are giving Israel a rod to beat them with and in turn Israel are whacking them with a f**king bulldozer!!

Bottom line is Hamas and other resistance groups are defending their people and Israel are whacking them with bulldozers sponsored and supported by Invest NI and ALL parties to the NI Executive. Eternal shame on them as they cry crocidile tears at protests around the country. They make my blood boil.

This latest round of Genocide has fcuk all to do with rockets, tunnells, Hamas, or anything else. Israel have been slaughtering thousands of Palestinians since 1948. They want the land, and they use every excuse under the sun to carry out this ethnic cleansing and Genocide.

Question for you GHD-based on this comment, do you think Israel has a right to exist

Right now Whitey and they way they are behaving, No.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 01, 2014, 03:50:39 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:37:16 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 03:32:27 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 01, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
What seems to be coming out is that they were adhering to the Ceasefire (the terms of which I am uncertain of) but decommissioning a tunnel then a fuckload of Palestinians appeared through it and it all kicked off culminating in the Palestinians capturing a soldier!!

Bottom line is Hamas are giving Israel a rod to beat them with and in turn Israel are whacking them with a f**king bulldozer!!

Bottom line is Hamas and other resistance groups are defending their people and Israel are whacking them with bulldozers sponsored and supported by Invest NI and ALL parties to the NI Executive. Eternal shame on them as they cry crocidile tears at protests around the country. They make my blood boil.

This latest round of Genocide has fcuk all to do with rockets, tunnells, Hamas, or anything else. Israel have been slaughtering thousands of Palestinians since 1948. They want the land, and they use every excuse under the sun to carry out this ethnic cleansing and Genocide.

Question for you GHD-based on this comment, do you think Israel has a right to exist

Right now Whitey and they way they are behaving, No.

GHD...seeing Al Quada flags pop up at some of the demonstrations is heartbreaking (specifically London last week).....this is not what Gaza is about.....and it will derail your message very quickly
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 01, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.

FFS you have dissident republicans speaking at your event. Are you taking the pi$$?




Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.

FFS you have dissident republicans speaking at your event. Are you taking the pi$$?

To start with, I didn't organise anything, and secondly, I have nothing but respect for Bernadette. If you don't like that, then tough.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.

FFS you have dissident republicans speaking at your event. Are you taking the pi$$?

To start with, I didn't organise anything, and secondly, I have nothing but respect for Bernadette. If you don't like that, then tough.

Immaterial whether you organized it or not......you're on here promoting it as a resounding success!!!!!

I have no axe to grind with Bernadette  personally,  but I'm curious, were there other dissidents present at the event?

Are you so blind as not to be able to see how this looks?

What the Israelis are saying about the Palestinians and Hamas NOT wanting peace is exactly what 99% of people in Ireland would say of the dissident movement who seem to have been given keynote status at the event.  SICKENING
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 01, 2014, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.

FFS you have dissident republicans speaking at your event. Are you taking the pi$$?

To start with, I didn't organise anything, and secondly, I have nothing but respect for Bernadette. If you don't like that, then tough.

Immaterial whether you organized it or not......you're on here promoting it as a resounding success!!!!!

I have no axe to grind with Bernadette  personally,  but I'm curious, were there other dissidents present at the event?

Are you so blind as not to be able to see how this looks?

What the Israelis are saying about the Palestinians and Hamas NOT wanting peace is exactly what 99% of people in Ireland would say of the dissident movement who seem to have been given keynote status at the event.  SICKENING

I wasn't aware Bernadette McAliskey was a supporter of dissident Republicans?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.

FFS you have dissident republicans speaking at your event. Are you taking the pi$$?

To start with, I didn't organise anything, and secondly, I have nothing but respect for Bernadette. If you don't like that, then tough.

Immaterial whether you organized it or not......you're on here promoting it as a resounding success!!!!!

I have no axe to grind with Bernadette  personally,  but I'm curious, were there other dissidents present at the event?

Are you so blind as not to be able to see how this looks?

What the Israelis are saying about the Palestinians and Hamas NOT wanting peace is exactly what 99% of people in Ireland would say of the dissident movement who seem to have been given keynote status at the event.  SICKENING

Whitey, I couldn't care less what you think or have to say.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:35:33 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.

FFS you have dissident republicans speaking at your event. Are you taking the pi$$?

To start with, I didn't organise anything, and secondly, I have nothing but respect for Bernadette. If you don't like that, then tough.

Immaterial whether you organized it or not......you're on here promoting it as a resounding success!!!!!

I have no axe to grind with Bernadette  personally,  but I'm curious, were there other dissidents present at the event?

Are you so blind as not to be able to see how this looks?

What the Israelis are saying about the Palestinians and Hamas NOT wanting peace is exactly what 99% of people in Ireland would say of the dissident movement who seem to have been given keynote status at the event.  SICKENING

Whitey, I couldn't care less what you think or have to say.

Me and 99% of the population......youve been found out. Be man enough to admit it
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: charlieTully on August 01, 2014, 05:52:09 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:35:33 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.

FFS you have dissident republicans speaking at your event. Are you taking the pi$$?

To start with, I didn't organise anything, and secondly, I have nothing but respect for Bernadette. If you don't like that, then tough.

Immaterial whether you organized it or not......you're on here promoting it as a resounding success!!!!!

I have no axe to grind with Bernadette  personally,  but I'm curious, were there other dissidents present at the event?

Are you so blind as not to be able to see how this looks?

What the Israelis are saying about the Palestinians and Hamas NOT wanting peace is exactly what 99% of people in Ireland would say of the dissident movement who seem to have been given keynote status at the event.  SICKENING

Whitey, I couldn't care less what you think or have to say.

Me and 99% of the population......youve been found out. Be man enough to admit it

Bernadette McAlliskey was a founder member of the IRSP who have been around for decades, long before the term dissident republican was ever known. I find you SICKENING whitey, coming on here spouting your right wing american shite. tr**p.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: charlieTully on August 01, 2014, 05:52:09 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:35:33 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 01, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2014, 03:37:43 PM
GHD - Did a female speaker at last nights rally state they wanted to tear Israel apart with their bare hands? Extremist language, if they did - which will go to great lengths to undo a lot of the great work you undertake.

Bernadette McAliskey spoke last night, and if I remember correctly, that was in relation to what she would do if she lived there and had to endure what the Palestinians have had to endure for decades.

FFS you have dissident republicans speaking at your event. Are you taking the pi$$?

To start with, I didn't organise anything, and secondly, I have nothing but respect for Bernadette. If you don't like that, then tough.

Immaterial whether you organized it or not......you're on here promoting it as a resounding success!!!!!

I have no axe to grind with Bernadette  personally,  but I'm curious, were there other dissidents present at the event?

Are you so blind as not to be able to see how this looks?

What the Israelis are saying about the Palestinians and Hamas NOT wanting peace is exactly what 99% of people in Ireland would say of the dissident movement who seem to have been given keynote status at the event.  SICKENING

Whitey, I couldn't care less what you think or have to say.

Me and 99% of the population......youve been found out. Be man enough to admit it

Bernadette McAlliskey was a founder member of the IRSP who have been around for decades, long before the term dissident republican was ever known. I find you SICKENING whitey, coming on here spouting your right wing american shite. tr**p.

Truth hurts.......LOL
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 06:05:48 PM
Someone is in a spot of bother....

http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-shell-israel-1598898-Jul2014/?utm_source=twitter_self
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on August 01, 2014, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 06:05:48 PM
Someone is in a spot of bother....

http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-shell-israel-1598898-Jul2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

And you thought you had nothing in common with Sinn Fein? Its  interesting that this is pretty much the thing Fine Gael have said in Gaza, except for the useless Charlie Flanagan defending his inaction
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Agent Orange on August 01, 2014, 07:49:41 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 01, 2014, 06:05:48 PM
Someone is in a spot of bother....

http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-shell-israel-1598898-Jul2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Looks like he is a man of action as well as words. Good on him, he is only saying what needs to be said.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/22885
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on August 01, 2014, 10:03:41 PM
All of a sudden there's a furore over one soldier who's been taken hostage.

How many kids have DIED?

Unreal world we live in.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 01, 2014, 11:04:19 PM
Well the good news is that Israeli owl that was injured by a Hamas rocket is now recovering.

This is not an Onion article, the Israeli media have actually taken the trouble to report this. No joke.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on August 02, 2014, 03:27:43 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 01, 2014, 11:04:19 PM
Well the good news is that Israeli owl that was injured by a Hamas rocket is now recovering.

This is not an Onion article, the Israeli media have actually taken the trouble to report this. No joke.

If he was a member of Hamas or Owl Qaeda you wouldn't hear about it in the news.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 02, 2014, 08:30:57 AM
Well worth reading:

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/did-israeli-army-deliberately-kill-its-own-captured-soldier-and-destroy-gaza
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on August 02, 2014, 07:59:12 PM
Great turn out in Derry today despite the Irish summer weather
The Protestant coalition calling out their supporters to stop the big March in Belfast next Sunday. What goes through these people's head?! The mind boggles trying to understand their thinking. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on August 02, 2014, 08:10:06 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on August 02, 2014, 07:59:12 PM
Great turn out in Derry today despite the Irish summer weather
The Protestant coalition calling out their supporters to stop the big March in Belfast next Sunday. What goes through these people's head?! The mind boggles trying to understand their thinking.

I'm not quite sure you will ever understand how their tiny minds work. My enemy's enemy is my friend mentality - that's unionist logic for you.

Clearly aligning themselves with Israel will mean some sort of morale boost for their britishness cause?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 02, 2014, 08:20:29 PM
USA - built on a land-grab that displaced a native population - supports Israel
Northern Unionists - a state built on a land-grab that displaced a native population - supports Israel

The Afrikaners in Apartheid South Africa sided with Israel too.

Quote
Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel)

"This is just like the Afrikaners of apartheid South Africa, who also had the biblical notion that the land was their God-given right. Like the Zionists who claimed that Palestine in the 1940s was 'a land without people for a people without land', so the Afrikaner settlers spread the myth that there were no black people in South Africa when they first settled in the 17th century. They conquered by force of arms and terror and the provocation of a series of bloody colonial wars of conquest."

...

By the 1980s, Israel and South Africa echoed each other in justifying the domination of other peoples. Both said that their own peoples faced annihilation from external forces - in South Africa by black African governments and communism; in Israel, by Arab states and Islam. But each eventually faced popular uprisings - Soweto in 1976, the Palestinian intifada in 1987 - that were internal, spontaneous and radically altered the nature of the conflicts.


It's a long article, but very eye-opening. From 2006 too.

One of the things I find very interesting about talking to pro-Israeli people or unionists or American right-wingers is that their timeline always begins after the initial conquest. They don't process the story of how these states came to be in the first place. They are mentally incapable of even thinking about the inconvenient truth of the historic ethnic cleansing that underpins the existence of these modern states. In the case of Palestine the evidence is staring us in the face in the form of the Palestinian refugees living in refugee camps in neighbouring countries and denied the right to return, but hardly anybody in America is even aware of their existence because the pro-Israel media will not talk about it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on August 02, 2014, 10:37:45 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on August 02, 2014, 07:59:12 PM
Great turn out in Derry today despite the Irish summer weather
The Protestant coalition calling out their supporters to stop the big March in Belfast next Sunday. What goes through these people's head?! The mind boggles trying to understand their thinking.

Don't think the march next Sunday has anything to do with Gaza,it's a dissie March againist internment
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 03, 2014, 01:53:42 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 02, 2014, 08:20:29 PM
USA - built on a land-grab that displaced a native population - supports Israel
Northern Unionists - a state built on a land-grab that displaced a native population - supports Israel

The Afrikaners in Apartheid South Africa sided with Israel too.

Quote
Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel)

"This is just like the Afrikaners of apartheid South Africa, who also had the biblical notion that the land was their God-given right. Like the Zionists who claimed that Palestine in the 1940s was 'a land without people for a people without land', so the Afrikaner settlers spread the myth that there were no black people in South Africa when they first settled in the 17th century. They conquered by force of arms and terror and the provocation of a series of bloody colonial wars of conquest."

...

By the 1980s, Israel and South Africa echoed each other in justifying the domination of other peoples. Both said that their own peoples faced annihilation from external forces - in South Africa by black African governments and communism; in Israel, by Arab states and Islam. But each eventually faced popular uprisings - Soweto in 1976, the Palestinian intifada in 1987 - that were internal, spontaneous and radically altered the nature of the conflicts.


It's a long article, but very eye-opening. From 2006 too.

One of the things I find very interesting about talking to pro-Israeli people or unionists or American right-wingers is that their timeline always begins after the initial conquest. They don't process the story of how these states came to be in the first place. They are mentally incapable of even thinking about the inconvenient truth of the historic ethnic cleansing that underpins the existence of these modern states. In the case of Palestine the evidence is staring us in the face in the form of the Palestinian refugees living in refugee camps in neighbouring countries and denied the right to return, but hardly anybody in America is even aware of their existence because the pro-Israel media will not talk about it.

Eamonnca1....I think you will find that pretty much every nation on earth was founded on some type of conflict.  I think if you go far enough back some tribe of Native Americans probably knocked seven bells out of some other tribe.

The situation in the Middle East is born out of the events of WWII much as WWII was born out of the events of WWI.  The conflict in the middle east was then fueled for decades by the subsequent Cold War where the Soviets backed the Arabs and the Americans backed the Israelis (even though they would probably have backed them anyway even if there wasn't a Cold War)

Sprinkle in various factions of Islam and you have a tinder box of epic proportions that will exist into perpetuity...just look at whats happening in Syria.....where Muslim on Muslim violence has killed 150,000 people in the last 18 months (might be 100,000 depending on who you believe).

I like your phrase "historic ethnic cleansing that underpins these states". Keep in mind that some of the worst cases of ethnic cleansing have had nothing to do with colonialism.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 03, 2014, 09:19:53 AM
Another UN school has been hit by an Israeli attack 10 minutes ago. 10 people have been killed and scores injured.
There were 3,000 displaced Palestinians seeking shelter in the school.

Rafah has been under a serious assault since Friday morning, and nearly 200 people have been killed so far.

Israel are on a murderous rampage through the area, and nowhere is safe right now.

Almost 1,800 have been killed and over 9,000 injured in less than a month.

This is GENOCIDE, sponsored and supported by the USA and the EU
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on August 03, 2014, 10:16:41 AM
Whitey
In answer to your reply to Eamonnca1

You're correct of course but you forgot to make any comment about the understandable anger felt by societies who are so cruelly treated by oppressive dictators. Would you be a "terrorist" if you lived in Palestine?

Pro Israel supporters in general don't want to go down those paths
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 03, 2014, 01:05:52 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on August 03, 2014, 10:16:41 AM
Whitey
In answer to your reply to Eamonnca1

You're correct of course but you forgot to make any comment about the understandable anger felt by societies who are so cruelly treated by oppressive dictators. Would you be a "terrorist" if you lived in Palestine?

Pro Israel supporters in general don't want to go down those paths

Would there be peace in Ireland if the IRA was still engaged in armed resistance?

No...the Republican movement realized that they just couldn't militarily defeat the British Army, so they agreed to a compromise that in prior years would have been unconscionable.

At some point, the Palestinians need to be able to find a way to reach some type of similar compromise.

The 2 problems I see is (1) The Israelis wont move and could care less about public opinion (2) Hamas are Muslim extremists and subscribe to a dogma thats incompatible with a democratic process.

Pressure is going to have come on both sides to reach an accomadation.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on August 03, 2014, 08:15:36 PM
Great to see the Palestine ambassador at today's Hunger Strike rally in Derrylin.So sad listening to him but also so proud when he talks about the great support from Ireland.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 03, 2014, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.

The formation of the Palestinian Unity Government is thought by some to be the reason behind the latest Israeli murder spree.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 03, 2014, 08:47:02 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 03, 2014, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.

The formation of the Palestinian Unity Government is thought by some to be the reason behind the latest Israeli murder spree.

You know what.....you might be onto something. For the first time in a long time Hamas has lost its traditional supporters in the Muslim world. Israel possibly viewed this as an opportunity to inflict some serious body blows without having to worry about looking over their shoulder. The more I read about the Israelis the more I dislike the. ( I just dislike Hamas a whole lot more)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: charlieTully on August 03, 2014, 08:59:23 PM
Quote from: glens abu on August 03, 2014, 08:15:36 PM
Great to see the Palestine ambassador at today's Hunger Strike rally in Derrylin.So sad listening to him but also so proud when he talks about the great support from Ireland.


Did the DFM apologise for his love affair with caterpillar and promise to disolve all dealings with them?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Lar Naparka on August 03, 2014, 09:11:06 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 03, 2014, 01:05:52 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on August 03, 2014, 10:16:41 AM
Whitey
In answer to your reply to Eamonnca1

You're correct of course but you forgot to make any comment about the understandable anger felt by societies who are so cruelly treated by oppressive dictators. Would you be a "terrorist" if you lived in Palestine?

Pro Israel supporters in general don't want to go down those paths

Would there be peace in Ireland if the IRA was still engaged in armed resistance?

No...the Republican movement realized that they just couldn't militarily defeat the British Army, so they agreed to a compromise that in prior years would have been unconscionable.

At some point, the Palestinians need to be able to find a way to reach some type of similar compromise.

The 2 problems I see is (1) The Israelis wont move and could care less about public opinion (2) Hamas are Muslim extremists and subscribe to a dogma thats incompatible with a democratic process.

Pressure is going to have come on both sides to reach an accomadation.
I think one could say with even greater justification that the BA realised that they could not defeat the Provos. According to Bertie Ahern, the IRA never had more than 250 active volunteers at any time during the Troubles and yet the combined might of the Brits' military and intelligence resources was unable to defeat them.
Right now, I think the only "winners" in the conflict in Gaza will be Hamas.
Like the IRA in the North, Hamas enjoys a great dead of popular support -sympathy if not active co-operation, and as long as they have that, the rocket attacks on southern Israel will continue.
The Israelis held Gaza under military rule for more than 35 years after the Seven Day War.
They withdrew in 2005 ( I think) and have re-invaded the strip a total of 3 times since then and so far they have not been able to defeat insistence fighters and if history is anything to go by, they never will.
Every massacre and indiscriminate attacks on schools, hospitals and refugee centres will drive scores of ordinary people into the  arms of Hamas. Anyone who believes that martyrdom will guarantee everlasting happiness in Paradise will always be a difficult opponent!
Overwhelming military superiority doesn't always mean the aggressive party in a conflict will win.
The Brits didn't in Northern Ireland and neither did the French, and later the US, in Vietnam.
The Russians invaded Afghanistan ion 1979 and were forced to pull out ten years later. The Americans fared no better when they did the same. Iraq in post-Saddam days is in more turmoil than it was when the US and their allies decided to intervene.
What the IDF is up to in Gaze defiles the concept of humanity but it wouldn't defeat Hamas and its' adherents.
The rockets will continue to be launched until the warring parties decide to sit down around some table, somewhere, sometime.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 03, 2014, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 03, 2014, 08:47:02 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 03, 2014, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.

The formation of the Palestinian Unity Government is thought by some to be the reason behind the latest Israeli murder spree.

You know what.....you might be onto something. For the first time in a long time Hamas has lost its traditional supporters in the Muslim world. Israel possibly viewed this as an opportunity to inflict some serious body blows without having to worry about looking over their shoulder. The more I read about the Israelis the more I dislike the. ( I just dislike Hamas a whole lot more)

More like Israel wants continual conflict in order to continue it's annexation of the West Bank. A credible united Palestinian front willing to talk peace is a threat to that. Also, when has Israel in the past ever had to look over it's shoulder when it decides to murder a few thousand Palestinians?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 03, 2014, 11:33:19 PM
Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 04, 2014, 03:28:43 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 03, 2014, 11:33:19 PM
Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.

The American PBS TV network and NPR radio network make regular use of BBC and ITN correspondents.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on August 04, 2014, 08:39:28 AM
Is there not some controversy over whether the bbc correspondent Bowen is still there too??
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 04, 2014, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 03, 2014, 11:33:19 PM
Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.

Good man, civilians, including women and children, are being slaughtered, and this is your contribution.

I will happily pay to send you to Gaza, as long as you give hourly news reports to RTE. If you fail to do so for any reason, you pay me back, deal?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Hereiam on August 04, 2014, 01:59:27 PM
Have I got this right.
Britain beat the Turks in WWl and ruled over Palestine
The Arab's thought that Britain would reward them with this land for helping them beat the Turks
at the same time the Jews thought that Britain would also reward them with this land for helping them during WWl
For a period they lived side by side but then the Jews kept on coming and soon the Arabs realised that the Jews will soon outnumber them.
Both side took it out on the British army because Britain did not act on what they had promised.
The Jews fought for Britain in WWll and learnt a lot from this.
Fight picked up again after WWll with the British Army again taking the brunt of this.
Britain got out and divided the land between the Jews and the Israelis.
Both sides have been fighting ever since and with Britain and the US backing the Jews it is looking like the Arabs will be forced out of Palestine.

Just to note the Irish fought for Britain in WW1 thinking that they would get independence, look how that turned out. Britain was and always will be a nasty piece of work.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on August 04, 2014, 02:40:53 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on August 04, 2014, 01:59:27 PM
Have I got this right.
Britain beat the Turks in WWl and ruled over Palestine
The Arab's thought that Britain would reward them with this land for helping them beat the Turks
at the same time the Jews thought that Britain would also reward them with this land for helping them during WWl
For a period they lived side by side but then the Jews kept on coming and soon the Arabs realised that the Jews will soon outnumber them.
Both side took it out on the British army because Britain did not act on what they had promised.
The Jews fought for Britain in WWll and learnt a lot from this.
Fight picked up again after WWll with the British Army again taking the brunt of this.
Britain got out and divided the land between the Jews and the Israelis.
Both sides have been fighting ever since and with Britain and the US backing the Jews it is looking like the Arabs will be forced out of Palestine.

Just to note the Irish fought for Britain in WW1 thinking that they would get independence, look how that turned out. Britain was and always will be a nasty piece of work.

Fairly rudimentary analysis, but not a million miles off the mark;

Have a look for the Balfour Declaration on the web, the Brits were promising all and sundry for support and finances during the war to end all other start all other wars.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Hereiam on August 04, 2014, 02:59:39 PM
This photo says it all about what is happening over there.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/04/1407138222466_wps_25_A_new_baby_in_Gaza_today_.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on August 04, 2014, 03:00:49 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on August 04, 2014, 01:59:27 PM
Have I got this right.
Britain beat the Turks in WWl and ruled over Palestine
The Arab's thought that Britain would reward them with this land for helping them beat the Turks
at the same time the Jews thought that Britain would also reward them with this land for helping them during WWl
For a period they lived side by side but then the Jews kept on coming and soon the Arabs realised that the Jews will soon outnumber them.
Both side took it out on the British army because Britain did not act on what they had promised.
The Jews fought for Britain in WWll and learnt a lot from this.
Fight picked up again after WWll with the British Army again taking the brunt of this.
Britain got out and divided the land between the Jews and the Israelis.
Both sides have been fighting ever since and with Britain and the US backing the Jews it is looking like the Arabs will be forced out of Palestine.

Just to note the Irish fought for Britain in WW1 thinking that they would get independence, look how that turned out. Britain was and always will be a nasty piece of work.

Not a thread for jokes but I think that is what the Zionists believe.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 04, 2014, 03:16:39 PM
Anger at Northern Ireland link to 'Israel's weapons of war': Caterpillar bulldozers 'used to raze Palestinian homes' in Gaza

By Suzanne Breen – 04 August 2014

A Palestinian journalist who has had 12 family members killed in Gaza is calling on Northern Ireland politicians to withdraw support for a company whose machinery is used by the Israeli military.

Yousef al-Helou says bulldozers made by the US engineering company Caterpillar, which has plants in Belfast and Larne, are being employed as "weapons of war bringing destruction to Gaza."

A dozen members of his extended family, including five children, were killed in an Israeli airstrike a fortnight ago.

Last week, his own home was destroyed with his wife and three daughters fleeing the building just before it was hit. Al-Helou is addressing meetings across Northern Ireland to highlight the plight of people in Gaza.

As well as requesting emergency supplies be sent to Palestinians, he is calling on local political parties to withdraw support for Caterpillar.

"D9 bulldozers made by Caterpillar are on the streets of Gaza now, leaving a trail of destruction behind them, razing thousands of Palestinian homes and farms in recent years," he said.

"They have destroyed electricity lines, water supplies, and sewerage systems. These bulldozers are used as strategic weapons which form a vital part of Israel's military arsenal.

"They have left tens of thousands of people homeless and without access to vital services which they need to live. I have seen first-hand the damage they have done.

"Given that people of Northern Ireland suffered during their own conflict, I ask them and their politicians, from the bottom of my heart, to stop supporting this company

"People I meet here are appalled at what is happening in Gaza. The goodwill towards the Palestinian people is overwhelming. But we now need practical help from the public and political leaders."

Last year it was announced that Invest NI had offered Caterpillar over £1.2 million funding. The initiative was backed by all the main political parties. The Department of Employment and Learning also offered training support of £440,000.

Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness have previously visited Caterpillar's Chicago headquarters and are strong supporters of the company which employs several hundred people in Northern Ireland.

Sunday Life contacted Caterpillar's Belfast and Larne offices but no-one was available for comment. The company has previously stated it doesn't provide machinery directly to Israel.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/anger-at-northern-ireland-link-to-israels-weapons-of-war-caterpillar-bulldozers-used-to-raze-palestinian-homes-in-gaza-30480785.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 04, 2014, 03:20:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 04, 2014, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 03, 2014, 11:33:19 PM
Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.

Good man, civilians, including women and children, are being slaughtered, and this is your contribution.

I will happily pay to send you to Gaza, as long as you give hourly news reports to RTE. If you fail to do so for any reason, you pay me back, deal?


I have a better idea.Why not send Gay Byrne out there.RTE journalists were falling over each other for President Higgins important state visit to Britain.

By the way you can make a very real contribution to the innocent children of Gaza through UNICEF or through the Irish Red Cross.The picture on page 21 of todays INDO reduced me to tears,It must be shown but it is unbelievably horrific and heartbreaking.Their are no winners in war.Hamas continued disregard for their civilian population and Israels murderous and reckless retaliatory disregard for civilian populations shows no signs of stopping.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on August 04, 2014, 03:22:36 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 04, 2014, 03:16:39 PM
Anger at Northern Ireland link to 'Israel's weapons of war': Caterpillar bulldozers 'used to raze Palestinian homes' in Gaza

By Suzanne Breen – 04 August 2014

A Palestinian journalist who has had 12 family members killed in Gaza is calling on Northern Ireland politicians to withdraw support for a company whose machinery is used by the Israeli military.

Yousef al-Helou says bulldozers made by the US engineering company Caterpillar, which has plants in Belfast and Larne, are being employed as "weapons of war bringing destruction to Gaza."

A dozen members of his extended family, including five children, were killed in an Israeli airstrike a fortnight ago.

Last week, his own home was destroyed with his wife and three daughters fleeing the building just before it was hit. Al-Helou is addressing meetings across Northern Ireland to highlight the plight of people in Gaza.

As well as requesting emergency supplies be sent to Palestinians, he is calling on local political parties to withdraw support for Caterpillar.

"D9 bulldozers made by Caterpillar are on the streets of Gaza now, leaving a trail of destruction behind them, razing thousands of Palestinian homes and farms in recent years," he said.

"They have destroyed electricity lines, water supplies, and sewerage systems. These bulldozers are used as strategic weapons which form a vital part of Israel's military arsenal.

"They have left tens of thousands of people homeless and without access to vital services which they need to live. I have seen first-hand the damage they have done.

"Given that people of Northern Ireland suffered during their own conflict, I ask them and their politicians, from the bottom of my heart, to stop supporting this company

"People I meet here are appalled at what is happening in Gaza. The goodwill towards the Palestinian people is overwhelming. But we now need practical help from the public and political leaders."

Last year it was announced that Invest NI had offered Caterpillar over £1.2 million funding. The initiative was backed by all the main political parties. The Department of Employment and Learning also offered training support of £440,000.

Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness have previously visited Caterpillar's Chicago headquarters and are strong supporters of the company which employs several hundred people in Northern Ireland.

Sunday Life contacted Caterpillar's Belfast and Larne offices but no-one was available for comment. The company has previously stated it doesn't provide machinery directly to Israel.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/anger-at-northern-ireland-link-to-israels-weapons-of-war-caterpillar-bulldozers-used-to-raze-palestinian-homes-in-gaza-30480785.html

No , it provides them for the US army who then give them to the Israelis..
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 04, 2014, 03:23:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 04, 2014, 03:20:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 04, 2014, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 03, 2014, 11:33:19 PM
Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.

Good man, civilians, including women and children, are being slaughtered, and this is your contribution.

I will happily pay to send you to Gaza, as long as you give hourly news reports to RTE. If you fail to do so for any reason, you pay me back, deal?


I have a better idea.Why not send Gay Byrne out there.RTE journalists were falling over each other for President Higgins important state visit to Britain.

By the way you can make a very real contribution to the innocent children of Gaza through UNICEF or through the Irish Red Cross.The picture on page 21 of todays INDO reduced me to tears,It must be shown but it is unbelievably horrific and heartbreaking.Their are no winners in war.Hamas continued disregard for their civilian population and Israels murderous and reckless retaliatory disregard for civilian populations shows no signs of stopping.

You are the one who mentioned 'the unyielding bravery' of RTE anchors. I offered to pay your way and you chickened out.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: HiMucker on August 05, 2014, 10:49:36 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28656874

Fair play to her.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 05, 2014, 01:50:24 PM
The Caterpillar from which no butterfly emerges

OK -  pub quiz time and an easy one for starters: where does Homer Simpson work? That's right – in a nuclear plant. That's what makes The Simpsons  such a good show. It takes something that could be stretched and chewed over and tosses it lightly away. Homer makes his living and supports his family through the nuclear industry.

Which brings us to Caterpillar. They're a company that employs hundreds of people in Larne and Belfast. Last year it got £1.2  million in funding from InvestNI. Well, you may say, companies need subsidies sometimes – it's worth it for the job. The catch is the Homer Simpson catch. Caterpillar is a US engineering firm and bulldozers made by Caterpillar were in action in Gaza a short time ago, and over the years has razed  thousand of Palestinian homes and farms. They've wrecked electricity lines, water supplies and sewerage systems. In short, they're part of Israel's war machine. Thanks to the work done by people in Belfast and Larne, Palestinians are suffering.

Tough one, eh?  People in Belfast and Larne need jobs. Caterpillar creates hundreds of them. Should we refuse to have anything to do with them, on the grounds that they've been used to terrorise the Palestinian people? Or should we avert our gaze and be glad the company's providing giving ordinary people a living?Working in the nuclear plant doesn't seem to bother Homer -  the plant is being used for positive, peaceful purposes.  The people who work for Caterpillar in Larne and Belfast might say that they just build the machines; what others do with them is entirely their affair.

The purist would say these machines are helping to make life hell for Palestinians and we should have no truck with them. But be honest: if the breadwinner in your family was working for Caterpillar, would you urge him or her to stop immediately, with all the implications that would have for the family?

My instincts tell me that making such machines, given the suffering they have helped inflict, is wrong. Just as it's wrong to be involved in building tanks and fighter jets and missiles which the UK then sells to the highest bidder in what is euphemistically called the arms trade. If you or I were found making a home-made pistol or building a home-made bomb, we'd be in front of a judge and inside a prison cell in double-quick time. Shouldn't the same criteria be applied here? Irish people are helping heap misery on the people of Gaza. How can we call on Israel to stop its trail of slaughter, if we're handing them part of the machinery they need to inflict that slaughter?

In the end, you have to decide whose side you're on. There's no point using the excuse of the train-driver who brought Jews to Auschwitz: "It's not me – I'm just doing my job".

http://linkis.com/www.judecollins.com/THv2m
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on August 05, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on August 05, 2014, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: stew on August 05, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 05, 2014, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: stew on August 05, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haranguerer on August 05, 2014, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 04, 2014, 03:23:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 04, 2014, 03:20:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 04, 2014, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 03, 2014, 11:33:19 PM
Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.

Good man, civilians, including women and children, are being slaughtered, and this is your contribution.

I will happily pay to send you to Gaza, as long as you give hourly news reports to RTE. If you fail to do so for any reason, you pay me back, deal?


I have a better idea.Why not send Gay Byrne out there.RTE journalists were falling over each other for President Higgins important state visit to Britain.

By the way you can make a very real contribution to the innocent children of Gaza through UNICEF or through the Irish Red Cross.The picture on page 21 of todays INDO reduced me to tears,It must be shown but it is unbelievably horrific and heartbreaking.Their are no winners in war.Hamas continued disregard for their civilian population and Israels murderous and reckless retaliatory disregard for civilian populations shows no signs of stopping.

You are the one who mentioned 'the unyielding bravery' of RTE anchors. I offered to pay your way and you chickened out.

So you'll actually pay for someone to go out and stay in Gaza during the conflict, with the sole provisio that they make regular reports to RTE?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 05, 2014, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: stew on August 05, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 06:27:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 05, 2014, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: stew on August 05, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.
So you know for a fact that if they could Hamas would wipe out every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2014, 06:29:59 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 06:27:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 05, 2014, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: stew on August 05, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.
So you know for a fact that if they could Hamas would wipe out every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel?

Its in their charter....unless theyre only codding :)
The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1]

The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 06:50:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 06:29:59 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 06:27:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 05, 2014, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: stew on August 05, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.
So you know for a fact that if they could Hamas would wipe out every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel?

Its in their charter....unless theyre only codding :)
The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1]

The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]

Getting rid of the Israeli state is a far cry from wiping everybody out. As far as I'm aware the Israelis refer to Israel as a 'Jewish state' and are slowly annexing the West Bank. How is this different from Hamas wanting an 'Islamic state' in the entire region?

There should be neither in my opinion. Just don't try and tell me Hamas are worse than the Israelis.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2014, 07:03:48 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 06:50:33 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 06:29:59 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 06:27:25 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 05, 2014, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: stew on August 05, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on August 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.
So you know for a fact that if they could Hamas would wipe out every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel?

Its in their charter....unless theyre only codding :)
The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1]

The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]

Getting rid of the Israeli state is a far cry from wiping everybody out. As far as I'm aware the Israelis refer to Israel as a 'Jewish state' and are slowly annexing the West Bank. How is this different from Hamas wanting an 'Islamic state' in the entire region?

There should be neither in my opinion. Just don't try and tell me Hamas are worse than the Israelis.

Im not typically a fan of cutting and pasting, but please tell me what part of this paragraph leaves any ambiguity as to what their intentions are:

Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? "And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper." Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: "The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow." (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 07:19:22 PM
All that in a nutshell is:

Palestine should be Islamic state. Peace conferences won't achieve this. Fighting will. The end.

So again, where in all of that is the call for the Final Solution part 2?

Oh and I'm pretty sure some Israelis think God promised them the land as well or maybe I picked that up wrong?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 07:19:22 PM
All that in a nutshell is:

Palestine should be Islamic state. Peace conferences won't achieve this. Fighting will. The end.

So again, where in all of that is the call for the Final Solution part 2?

Oh and I'm pretty sure some Israelis think God promised them the land as well or maybe I picked that up wrong?

Did you even bother to read what I posted?


He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow

Heres some more excerpts from their charter in case you need more proof.

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The  land  of  Palestine  is  an  Islamic  Waqf  [Holy   Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No  one

can renounce it or any part, or  abandon  it  or  any  part  of  it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is  an  Islamic  land...  Since  this  is  the  case,  the

Liberation of Palestine  is  an  individual  duty  for  every  Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



So if Hamas destroy Israel, as per their charter what do you think will happen the Jewish residents.

Will the Palestinians invite them over for tea and crumpets
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 05, 2014, 08:00:14 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 05, 2014, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 04, 2014, 03:23:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 04, 2014, 03:20:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 04, 2014, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 03, 2014, 11:33:19 PM
Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.

Good man, civilians, including women and children, are being slaughtered, and this is your contribution.

I will happily pay to send you to Gaza, as long as you give hourly news reports to RTE. If you fail to do so for any reason, you pay me back, deal?


I have a better idea.Why not send Gay Byrne out there.RTE journalists were falling over each other for President Higgins important state visit to Britain.

By the way you can make a very real contribution to the innocent children of Gaza through UNICEF or through the Irish Red Cross.The picture on page 21 of todays INDO reduced me to tears,It must be shown but it is unbelievably horrific and heartbreaking.Their are no winners in war.Hamas continued disregard for their civilian population and Israels murderous and reckless retaliatory disregard for civilian populations shows no signs of stopping.

You are the one who mentioned 'the unyielding bravery' of RTE anchors. I offered to pay your way and you chickened out.

So you'll actually pay for someone to go out and stay in Gaza during the conflict, with the sole provisio that they make regular reports to RTE?

He was whinging about RTE not sending anyone so I offered to send him. He now wants to send an 80 year old Gaybo.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 09:10:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 07:19:22 PM
All that in a nutshell is:

Palestine should be Islamic state. Peace conferences won't achieve this. Fighting will. The end.

So again, where in all of that is the call for the Final Solution part 2?

Oh and I'm pretty sure some Israelis think God promised them the land as well or maybe I picked that up wrong?

Did you even bother to read what I posted?


He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow

Heres some more excerpts from their charter in case you need more proof.

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The  land  of  Palestine  is  an  Islamic  Waqf  [Holy   Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No  one

can renounce it or any part, or  abandon  it  or  any  part  of  it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is  an  Islamic  land...  Since  this  is  the  case,  the

Liberation of Palestine  is  an  individual  duty  for  every  Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



So if Hamas destroy Israel, as per their charter what do you think will happen the Jewish residents.

Will the Palestinians invite them over for tea and crumpets

First of all - I did read what you posted...and there is nothing in your cut and paste calling for all Jews to be wiped out. Nothing.

What would happen if Hamas got their wish and created an Islamic state in Palestine ? I don't know and neither do you. I do hope the Palestinians wouldn't be so inhumane as to chase all the Jews off their land and make them live in squalid refugee camps in neighbouring countries.

Besides which...aren't Hamas allowed to move from this original position? If I recall correctly they stated a few years back that they were willing make peace with Israel based on the 1967 borders. We all know who doesn't like that particular plan (building Jewish only towns in the West Bank and all that).
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2014, 09:55:24 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 09:10:41 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 07:19:22 PM
All that in a nutshell is:

Palestine should be Islamic state. Peace conferences won't achieve this. Fighting will. The end.

So again, where in all of that is the call for the Final Solution part 2?

Oh and I'm pretty sure some Israelis think God promised them the land as well or maybe I picked that up wrong?

Did you even bother to read what I posted?


He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow

Heres some more excerpts from their charter in case you need more proof.

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The  land  of  Palestine  is  an  Islamic  Waqf  [Holy   Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No  one

can renounce it or any part, or  abandon  it  or  any  part  of  it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is  an  Islamic  land...  Since  this  is  the  case,  the

Liberation of Palestine  is  an  individual  duty  for  every  Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



So if Hamas destroy Israel, as per their charter what do you think will happen the Jewish residents.

Will the Palestinians invite them over for tea and crumpets

First of all - I did read what you posted...and there is nothing in your cut and paste calling for all Jews to be wiped out. Nothing.

What would happen if Hamas got their wish and created an Islamic state in Palestine ? I don't know and neither do you. I do hope the Palestinians wouldn't be so inhumane as to chase all the Jews off their land and make them live in squalid refugee camps in neighbouring countries.

Besides which...aren't Hamas allowed to move from this original position? If I recall correctly they stated a few years back that they were willing make peace with Israel based on the 1967 borders. We all know who doesn't like that particular plan (building Jewish only towns in the West Bank and all that).


LOL. You're having me on right. So they will somehow obliterate Israel (their words not mine) but not the Jews.  It's in their CHARTER.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on August 05, 2014, 10:01:36 PM
The 1937 constitution detailed the Irish state as incorporating the 6 counties. It was a Catholic state but I don't believe that meant the intention was to kill all Protestants.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2014, 10:04:04 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 05, 2014, 10:01:36 PM
The 1937 constitution detailed the Irish state as incorporating the 6 counties. It was a Catholic state but I don't believe that meant the intention was to kill all Protestants.

Catholics aren't jihadist Muslims who believe that they will go straight to heaven and keep company with 76  virgins for eternity if they die for their religion

Comparing apples to turnips my friend
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on August 05, 2014, 10:06:18 PM
The Likud charter from 1999 as available on www.knesset.gov.il says:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
...
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

"Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem"

The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on August 05, 2014, 10:10:59 PM
Listening to the Hamas representative on CNN last night, he clearly stated they had no problem with ordinary Jewish people, he said people are allowed to practice whatever religion they want.  He is against the state of Isreal.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 05, 2014, 10:16:10 PM
And you believe him????

So why don't rewrite their charter the. To reflect this more moderate stance
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on August 05, 2014, 10:25:11 PM
Whitey care to comment on Likud Charter. Find it hard to believe Mike Sheedy isn't around with Whitey's anti Muslim agenda.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on August 05, 2014, 10:27:20 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 10:16:10 PM
And you believe him????

So why don't rewrite their charter the. To reflect this more moderate stance

Let's all believe the likes of Mark Regev then??

I don't think even paisley and robinson could fit in the word "terrorists" into their interviews during the whole of their careers as often he's been doing the past couple of weeks.

Utterly disgraceful propoganda.

and as for the USA giving 225 million extra funding yesterday for a defense system to protect Israel? WTF?
If they spent that money trying to resolve the conflict and help rebuild on both sides wouldn't that be a better use for it?





Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: charlieTully on August 05, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 10:16:10 PM
And you believe him????

So why don't rewrite their charter the. To reflect this more moderate stance

Are you representative of Irish Americans or a lone voice? Christ I hope its the latter.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Kidder81 on August 05, 2014, 10:42:31 PM
Any chance any of our politicians in the north or South turn down an invitation to the White House or voice their disapproval to the US government about the genocide in Gaza ? Not a fckn hope.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 05, 2014, 10:54:01 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on August 05, 2014, 10:42:31 PM
Any chance any of our politicians in the north or South turn down an invitation to the White House or voice their disapproval to the US government about the genocide in Gaza ? Not a fckn hope.

Not a chance. Right now they are taking their instructions from Uncle Sam on how to act. Only 6 weeks ago Sinn Fein were wining and dining the deputy Israeli Ambassador at Stormont. Sinn Fein will condemn this attack or the other by Israel, but they always stop short in condemning Israel as a state.

Plus, they are trying to control every rally, and in our case in Dungannon, holding one at the same time and spreading rumors that my guest last week was from Hamas and no one should attend in case they were photographed there. The fact he was a journalist was over looked.

Until they withdraw their support for Caterpillar, their support for Palestine is worthless.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 10:56:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 09:55:24 PM

LOL. You're having me on right. So they will somehow obliterate Israel (their words not mine) but not the Jews.  It's in their CHARTER.

The strange thing about you Whitey is this......the things you hate Hamas for (i.e. what you think they would get up to given a chance) are all things Israel have already done and continue to do.

Ethnic cleansing - check

Obliterating people - check

Taking other peoples stuff - check

Imprisoning people without trial - check

Wanting to create a state based on one religions supremacy over all others - check

Massacres - check

Telling lies - check

Did I miss anything?

Never mind CHARTERS . Israel have already done it all and yet you hold them in higher regard???
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on August 06, 2014, 12:01:46 AM
Hannity really is an embarrassment
http://youtu.be/a52Bgm0e2SQ (http://youtu.be/a52Bgm0e2SQ)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2014, 12:47:00 AM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 05, 2014, 10:56:31 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 09:55:24 PM

LOL. You're having me on right. So they will somehow obliterate Israel (their words not mine) but not the Jews.  It's in their CHARTER.

The strange thing about you Whitey is this......the things you hate Hamas for (i.e. what you think they would get up to given a chance) are all things Israel have already done and continue to do.

Ethnic cleansing - check

Obliterating people - check

Taking other peoples stuff - check

Imprisoning people without trial - check

Wanting to create a state based on one religions supremacy over all others - check

Massacres - check

Telling lies - check

Did I miss anything?

Never mind CHARTERS . Israel have already done it all and yet you hold them in higher regard???


I by no means ever said Israel were completely innocent in this.

(If you look back further in this thread, you will see I am currently in the middle of reading a book to educate myself better on what's happening: Goliath. Life and Loathing in Greater Israel which is HIGHLY critical of Israel. I am learning about all types of stuff I never knew and I understand that the Israelis do in fact have a lot to answer for)

That being said I do believe 2 things (1) Israel does have a right to exist and (2) they have a right to defend themselves.

I have produced quotes verbatim from Hamas' Charter where they call for the "OBLITERATION" of Israel and somehow you can deduce from that obliterating Israel can occur without them obliterating the Jews.

If they had the means to do so.......they'd do so in a heartbeat.

I guess what really blows me away is that all the people supporting Hamas, have very little idea what Hamas really stands for. They look at pictures of dead kids and somehow deduce that Israelis are cvnts (which they are) and that Hamas are innocent victims in all this.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: charlieTully on August 06, 2014, 01:17:29 AM
You are mistaking outrage at genocide for support of Hamas.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2014, 01:18:40 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on August 05, 2014, 10:25:11 PM
Whitey care to comment on Likud Charter. Find it hard to believe Mike Sheedy isn't around with Whitey's anti Muslim agenda.

Sorry about that PHP...I have to do some work to pay the bills!

Based on my dialogue with GHD a couple of weeks ago I went out and bought a book in order to educate myself better-I am a history and politics Junkie. (I already referenced this book many pages back in the thread)

http://www.amazon.com/Goliath-Life-Loathing-Greater-Israel/dp/1568586345.

I am learning tons of stuff I never knew, and my opinion of Israel has changed dramatically.

(I think the author may have since been barred from entering Israel)

That being said, I still think (1) Israel has a right to exist and (2) they have a right to protect themselves


What is extremely disappointing is many posters on here have this over simplified view of the conflict

Israel-BAD

Palestinians/Hamas-GOOD

Hamas are equally as big a pack of cvnts as the Israelis, and God help us all if they ever get any significant military capacity. Spend some time and read up on the underlying beliefs of these Jihadist groups such as Isis, the Taliban, Al Quada  and Hamas.

I already referenced my wife's 2 nephews who served in Afghanistan and Iraq and how their first person experiences have helped form my opinions of Islamic Jihadists.

That being said, when I'm in Ireland next week, I will be spending an evening with an old neighbor of mine, who, without going into too much detail, has a much different insight than my 2 nephews, given his high profile work with the UN on the region. I reached out to him already to see if he would pen a piece for me to share here, but given his high profile he couldn't do it
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2014, 01:26:06 AM
Quote from: charlieTully on August 06, 2014, 01:17:29 AM
You are mistaking outrage at genocide for support of Hamas.

So why were the attendees at GHDs Dungannon event waving Hamas flags around then

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/5300-0/photos/1406068833-peoples-protest-in-solidarity-with-palestine-in-dungannon_5340040.jpg

(I don't know how to paste pictures, but google the event if you think I'm making it up)

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on August 06, 2014, 01:26:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 09:55:24 PM


LOL. You're having me on right. So they will somehow obliterate Israel (their words not mine) but not the Jews.  It's in their CHARTER.

This belief that "Israel = All Jews" seems to be a common misconception - NOT ALL JEWS ARE ISRAELI!! Israel is a state, Judaism is a religion / race. One does not equate the other. Anti-Israeli does not equal anti-Jewish. Wanting an end to Israel as it currently exists does not equal wanting Jewish people wiped off the planet.

Just saw your post re Islamic Jihadists whitey and personally I draw a definite line between Hamas (who are fighting in their own country against a superior oppressive military force with a view to "freeing" their people) and other groups who may be categorised in the same manner but who operate in different theatres
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 06, 2014, 01:28:58 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2014, 01:26:06 AM
Quote from: charlieTully on August 06, 2014, 01:17:29 AM
You are mistaking outrage at genocide for support of Hamas.

So why were the attendees at GHDs Dungannon event waving Hamas flags around then

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/5300-0/photos/1406068833-peoples-protest-in-solidarity-with-palestine-in-dungannon_5340040.jpg

(I don't know how to paste pictures, but google the event if you think I'm making it up)

I'll give you a million pounds if you can show me the Hamas flag in the picture
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2014, 01:36:27 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 06, 2014, 01:28:58 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2014, 01:26:06 AM
Quote from: charlieTully on August 06, 2014, 01:17:29 AM
You are mistaking outrage at genocide for support of Hamas.

So why were the attendees at GHDs Dungannon event waving Hamas flags around then

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/5300-0/photos/1406068833-peoples-protest-in-solidarity-with-palestine-in-dungannon_5340040.jpg

(I don't know how to paste pictures, but google the event if you think I'm making it up)

I'll give you a million pounds if you can show me the Hamas flag in the picture

My apologies...It's a Hezbollah flag not a Hamas flag....

Here's the guys in Dublin with the Hamas flag

http://markhumphrys.com/Bitmaps/free.gaza.2.lores.jpg

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 06, 2014, 02:01:38 AM
Never ask me about peace again

Asmaa al-Ghoul  August 4, 2014

Tears flowed until my body ran dry of them when I received a telephone call on Aug. 3, informing me that my family had been targeted by two F-16 missiles in the city of Rafah. Such was the fate of our family in a war that still continues, with every family in the Gaza Strip receiving its share of sorrow and pain.

My father's brother, Ismail al-Ghoul, 60, was not a member of Hamas. His wife, Khadra, 62, was not a militant of Hamas. Their sons, Wael, 35, and Mohammed, 32, were not combatants for Hamas. Their daughters, Hanadi, 28, and Asmaa, 22, were not operatives for Hamas, nor were my cousin Wael's children, Ismail, 11, Malak, 5, and baby Mustafa, only 24 days old, members of Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine or Fatah. Yet, they all died in the Israeli shelling that targeted their home at 6:20 a.m. on Sunday morning.

Their house was located in the Yibna neighborhood of the Rafah refugee camp. It was one story with a roof made of thin asbestos that did not require two F-16 missiles to destroy. Would someone please inform Israel that refugee camp houses can be destroyed, and their occupants killed, with only a small bomb, and that it needn't spend billions to blow them into oblivion?

If it is Hamas that you hate, let me tell you that the people you are killing have nothing to do with Hamas. They are women, children, men and senior citizens whose only concern was for the war to end, so they can return to their lives and daily routines. But let me assure you that you have now created thousands — no, millions — of Hamas loyalists, for we all become Hamas if Hamas, to you, is women, children and innocent families. If Hamas, in your eyes, is ordinary civilians and families, then I am Hamas, they are Hamas and we are all Hamas.

Throughout the war, we thought that the worst had passed, that this was the pivotal moment when matters would improve, that they would stop there. Yet, that real moment of pain, of extreme fear, was always followed by something even worse.

Now I understood why the photographs of corpses were so important, not only for international public opinion, but for us, the families, in search for an opportunity to bid farewell to our loved ones, so treacherously killed. What were they doing in those last moments? What did they look like after their death?

I discovered the photos of my dead relatives on social networking sites. The bodies of my cousin's children were stored in an ice cream freezer. Rafah's Abu Yousef al-Najjar Hospital was closed after being shelled by Israeli tanks, and the Kuwaiti Hospital that we visited just a day earlier had become an alternate venue, where this freezer was the only option available.

Al-Najjar's director, Abdullah Shehadeh, told Al-Monitor, "We decided to move the patients when shells hit the main gate. Some patients, out of fear, ran out, despite the gravity of the security situation. We are now working out of this ill-equipped hospital."

The Emirati Red Crescent Maternity Hospital, west of Rafah, has been transformed into a large container for corpses, with fruit and vegetable freezers filled with dozens of bodies.

I saw corpses on the floor, some with nametags on their chests, while others remained unknown. We held our noses, for the stench was unbearable, as flies filled the air.

Ibrahim Hamad, 27, removed his five-year-old son's shroud-wrapped body from a vegetable freezer. Fighting back tears, he told Al-Monitor, "He died as a result of a reconnaissance drone missile attack. His body has been here since yesterday. The dangerous situation prevented me from coming to take him any sooner."

I thank God that my relatives were quickly buried, and that my cousins Mustafa, Malak and Ismail did not remain long in a freezer, lest their bodies freeze, and their souls now rest in peace, leaving us with nothing but the silence of death and bodies forever trapped in the postures of their passing.

On the fifth day of the war, when I went to write my Rafah report about the shelling of the Ghannam family, I stopped by to visit my cousin's house. I saw my relatives and we took photographs together. During the war, my cousin Wael's wife had given birth to twins, Mustafa and Ibrahim, who were like two tiny angels, harbingers of hope and joy.

How could I have known that this would be our last meeting? I wish I had stayed longer and talked to them some more. Hanadi, Asmaa, my uncle and his wife laughed as they joked about the twist of fate that brought us together in the middle of a war, at a time when Israeli occupation forces had not yet begun perpetrating their wanton war crimes against Rafah.

Endings are so strange, as are living moments that suddenly become relegated to the past. We will never see them again, and the pictures that I took of the twins are now so precious, as one of them, Mustafa, was killed, while the other, Ibrahim, remained alive.

I wonder how they could differentiate between them, for they looked so much alike. Who identified them when their father died and their mother lay wounded in intensive care? Who was Mustafa, and who was Ibrahim? It was as if they had merged upon one twin's death.

In the photos taken after their death, my family looked so peaceful, asleep with their eyes closed. None of them were disfigured or burned, unlike hundreds of dead children and civilians that US-made weapons killed before them. We wondered if they died in pain. What happened when the missile, carrying tons of explosives, impacted their modest house and exploded, creating air pressure so fierce that their internal organs burst? Their suffering was perhaps lessened by the fact that they were sleeping.

I didn't see them when I went to Rafah on Aug. 2. I wrote about the death of the Ayad Abu Taha family, which was targeted by warplanes, and saw the corpse of Rizk Abu Taha, one year old, when it arrived at the Kuwaiti Hospital.

I observed him at length. He looked alive. One could see that he had been playing when he died, dressed in his pink pants. How could he be at such peace? The bodies of war victims look so different from how they appear on television. They are so real, so substantial, suddenly there before you, without any newscast introductions, music or slogans.

Bodies lay everywhere, and it was if everything in life had been to prepare us for this moment. Suddenly, the dead left their personal lives behind: their cell phones, homes, clothes, perfumes and daily chores. Most importantly, they left the fear of war behind.

Distances in the small Gaza Strip have grown larger, distances and time expanding as a result of the fear and death that shrank the life expectancy of the populace. We were unable to join the family for the funerals. My uncle, Ahmad al-Ghoul, later told me over the phone, "Because of the inherent danger, our goodbyes to them lasted mere seconds. Malak's eyes laid open, as if to ask, 'What wrong did I commit?'"

I was born in 1982, in that same house in Rafah's refugee camp, where the family's large household expanded. I grew up there, and everything else grew with us: the first intifada, the resistance, my nearby school that I walked to every day. There, I saw my first-ever book library. There, I remember seeing my grandfather fall asleep as he listened to the BBC. And there, I laid eyes on the first Israeli soldier in my life, striking my grandfather to force him to erase the national slogans that adorned the walls of our refugee camp home.

Now, the house and its future memories have been laid to waste, its children taken to early graves. Homes and recollections bombed into oblivion, their inhabitants homeless and lost, just as their camp always had been. Never ask me about peace again.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/08/rafah-gaza-war-hospitals-filled-bodies-palestinians.html#
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2014, 02:03:45 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 06, 2014, 01:26:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 09:55:24 PM


LOL. You're having me on right. So they will somehow obliterate Israel (their words not mine) but not the Jews.  It's in their CHARTER.

This belief that "Israel = All Jews" seems to be a common misconception - NOT ALL JEWS ARE ISRAELI!! Israel is a state, Judaism is a religion / race. One does not equate the other. Anti-Israeli does not equal anti-Jewish. Wanting an end to Israel as it currently exists does not equal wanting Jewish people wiped off the planet.

Just saw your post re Islamic Jihadists whitey and personally I draw a definite line between Hamas (who are fighting in their own country against a superior oppressive military force with a view to "freeing" their people) and other groups who may be categorised in the same manner but who operate in different theatres
So let me ask the question in a more pointed manner....when Hamas obliterates Israel.....what do you think will become of the ISRAELI Jews who comprise approx 80% of the population of Israel

Will they survive the obliteration, or will it be a more gentle, Hamas flavored obliteration
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: charlieTully on August 06, 2014, 02:04:36 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2014, 01:36:27 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 06, 2014, 01:28:58 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2014, 01:26:06 AM
Quote from: charlieTully on August 06, 2014, 01:17:29 AM
You are mistaking outrage at genocide for support of Hamas.

So why were the attendees at GHDs Dungannon event waving Hamas flags around then

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/5300-0/photos/1406068833-peoples-protest-in-solidarity-with-palestine-in-dungannon_5340040.jpg

(I don't know how to paste pictures, but google the event if you think I'm making it up)

I'll give you a million pounds if you can show me the Hamas flag in the picture

My apologies...It's a Hezbollah flag not a Hamas flag....

Here's the guys in Dublin with the Hamas flag

http://markhumphrys.com/Bitmaps/free.gaza.2.lores.jpg

that's your proof of widespread support in Ireland for Hamas? I have never seen anything bring people out on the streets like this in years, there has been more protests over the 32 counties than the collapse of the economy managed to generate, its honestly not a matter of republicanism etc, I know people who have never expressed a political opinion in their lives who are organising to send out clothing and medical aid, lifelong sdlp voters are standing shoulder to shoulder with sf and eirigi in newry protesting, party politics are left aside. Ive done my fair share of trolling whity but Jesus lad, this shit is beyond trying to get a response on gaa board.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 06, 2014, 02:56:40 AM
Charlie..you know what your probably right...I'm getting a little OCD on this topic


Bottom line is Hamas Flags were evident at several Pro Gaza rallies in the States and elsewhere. It made front page news.  FFS an Al Quada flag was seemingly evident at a protest in London (but I don't know if that is true)

It's very possible that the legitimate protests are being undermined with folks who have some other agenda.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 06, 2014, 03:15:12 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2014, 02:56:40 AM
Charlie..you know what your probably right...I'm getting a little OCD on this topic


Bottom line is Hamas Flags were evident at several Pro Gaza rallies in the States and elsewhere. It made front page news.  FFS an Al Quada flag was seemingly evident at a protest in London (but I don't know if that is true)

It's very possible that the legitimate protests are being undermined with folks who have some other agenda.

Whitey, Union Flags and USA flags fly everywhere and look at the blood dripping from them
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 06, 2014, 03:22:05 AM
This is a report from the UK Deputy Israeli Ambassador following his visit just 6 weeks ago.

Look at who he met, who attended the functions, and in particular, the following statement:

'Israel is a biblical prophecy fulfilled in our present time. It is a miracle, a true light among the nations'.



Deputy Ambassador Na'eh heads to Northern Ireland


​This week the Deputy Ambassador Mr Eitan Na'eh visited Belfast in his first diplomatic visit to Northern Ireland. He was accompanied by Steven Jaffe, co-chair of Northern Ireland friends of Israel who escorted Mr. Na'eh to a range of meetings.

Mr. Na'eh was proud to attend the Dem​ocratic Unionist Party Friends of Israel Launch, hosted by David McIlveen MLA who spoke along side the First Minister of Northern Ireland Peter Robinson MLA.  The First Minister said, 'As a nation, Israel has been passionate in standing up for democracy, it has led the way in development and research and has a fantastic economy. We are proud of our friendship with Israel and continue to stand with you.

Mr Na'eh had a busy schedule filled with political meetings in Stormont. He spoke to Junior Ministers Jonathan Bell MLA and Jennifer McCann MLA about the current situation in Israel, and listened to their experiences in regard to the peace building process in Northern Ireland.  Whilst in Stormont, Mr Na'eh met with the Deputy Speaker of the house Mitchel McLaughlin MLA and spoke at a lunch event for the political representatives of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

The afternoon was spent gaining a better understanding of the role of civil society group in peace building activities and in the reconciliation process. Mr Na'eh met with Evelyn Collins from the Equality Commission and with Liam Maskey of Intercomm, alongside senior personnel from the police force. 

Reflecting on these two meetings, Mr. Na'eh said that the value of civil society groups in bringing people together and bridging the divides, was critical to moving forward in a process of reconciliation. Central to Northern Ireland was the willingness to renounce violence and to accept that compromise was necessary for both sides in order to move forward.

Later that evening Mr Na'eh attended a Night to Honour Israel celebration in Stormont hosted by the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem.The night was a joyous occasion, filled with Music, dance and prayer for the state of Israel and was attended by cross party political representatives. Mr Na'eh spoke alongside David McIlveen MLA, Alban Maginness MLA and Donna Holbrook, Director of the ICEJ in Canada.  Mr Na'eh addressed the two hundred person crowd saying, 'Israel is a biblical prophecy fulfilled in our present time. It is a miracle, a true light among the nations'.

Following his visit to Northern Ireland, discussions will occur with political representatives about ways to deepen the relationship between Israel and Northern Ireland.​

http://embassies.gov.il/london/NewsAndEvents/Pages/Deputy-Ambassador-Na%27eh-heads-to-Northern-Ireland.aspx
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on August 06, 2014, 09:03:44 AM
Just to counteract Dixie usual anti SF propaganda,before SF meet with Israel Ambassador they cleared it with the Palestine Ambassador who wanted SF to meet him and put forward the points that they have been unable to do.SF are in daily contact with the Palestine Ambassador and he was also welcomed and given pride of place at the Hunger strike commemoration on Sunday which was organised by SF.Sure if these people who profess to be so concerned about what's happening in Gaza but the same effort into helping as they do SF bashing it would be wonderful.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 06, 2014, 09:22:29 AM
In fairness glens, I've had my run ins with GHD's views on the conflict over there (before this latest round of atrocities) but I don't think you can accuse him of being a hurler on the ditch with this one. The man drove a truck full of humanitarian aid to Gaza, and is always at these demos etc.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on August 06, 2014, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 06, 2014, 02:03:45 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 06, 2014, 01:26:48 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 05, 2014, 09:55:24 PM


LOL. You're having me on right. So they will somehow obliterate Israel (their words not mine) but not the Jews.  It's in their CHARTER.

This belief that "Israel = All Jews" seems to be a common misconception - NOT ALL JEWS ARE ISRAELI!! Israel is a state, Judaism is a religion / race. One does not equate the other. Anti-Israeli does not equal anti-Jewish. Wanting an end to Israel as it currently exists does not equal wanting Jewish people wiped off the planet.

Just saw your post re Islamic Jihadists whitey and personally I draw a definite line between Hamas (who are fighting in their own country against a superior oppressive military force with a view to "freeing" their people) and other groups who may be categorised in the same manner but who operate in different theatres
So let me ask the question in a more pointed manner....when Hamas obliterates Israel.....what do you think will become of the ISRAELI Jews who comprise approx 80% of the population of Israel

Will they survive the obliteration, or will it be a more gentle, Hamas flavored obliteration

The "obliteration" of Israel which is in their charter is often referred to as the "obliteration" of all Jews, these are not the same thing and it's a huge difference. Referring to it incorrectly as the latter serves one particular agenda to justify the actions of Israel which are unjustifiable.

IMO, (and I'm not a Hamas spokesperson!) it refers to the destruction of the Israeli war mongering state which has made the lives of the Palestinians a misery for however many years. The destruction of the Israeli state as it currently stands does not necessarily (and is unlikely to be) a military action, it needs to be a political action. As such, there willbe no physical "obliteration" of Jewish Israelis, they will belong to whatever new entity comes after Israel as it currently exists (the name of the new entity may well still be Israel)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 06, 2014, 09:36:26 AM
I think the Hamas charter is calling for the obliteration of the state of Israel, and any other Jewish controlled state that would be created in its stead. (Not necessarily Jewish people although it's hard to see how an entire nation could be subsumed into a Muslim country without major issues).

I can't see this working. The only solution I can possibly see is the two state solution, along the lines of the UN 1967 charter, with the borders being policed by an international armed force to ensure Israel does not breach the borders or try to attack or settle Palestinian land again, and to also make sure the more hardline, obliterate Israel, crew don't try and do just that.

But the solution has to be parked for the moment, the immediate priority has to be to stop the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians, and I am disgusted with the international community. Politicians really are c***ts.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on August 06, 2014, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2014, 09:22:29 AM
In fairness glens, I've had my run ins with GHD's views on the conflict over there (before this latest round of atrocities) but I don't think you can accuse him of being a hurler on the ditch with this one. The man drove a truck full of humanitarian aid to Gaza, and is always at these demos etc.

Wouldn't dream of accusing him on that Offaly as have seen at first hand the great work he does,but he seems to think others and especially Shinners don't do anything only support Israel and nothing could be further from the truth as even as we speak I am heading to Conway Mill to help load a container for Gaza.Just because he does good work for Palestine doesn't mean he should get a free run with his propaganda
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 06, 2014, 09:55:20 AM
Absolutely not, but you said something like 'if they put as much effort into helping Gaza as criticising Sinn Féin'.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on August 06, 2014, 10:13:11 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2014, 09:55:20 AM
Absolutely not, but you said something like 'if they put as much effort into helping Gaza as criticising Sinn Féin'.

I was talking about the amount of people who are anti SF using what is happening in Gaza to try and bash the Shinners instead of putting their differences aside for now and putting all  that effort into protesting together and helping together.Unfortunately there are some who can't do that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 06, 2014, 10:20:55 AM
Glens, you somehow think that it is great to have the support of the Palestinian Ambassador and that it gives cover for Sinn Fein to meet whoever they want. Sinn Fein are pushing the USA agenda, with the support of their paid stooge in Dublin.

As for sending a container, well good luck as there isn't a hope in hell that it will get in. The last 2 containers that left here ended up having their contents dumped in the Sinani desert. Funny how it has taken Sinn Fein until now to organise sending some aid? They never sent a thing before in case they were accussed of donating to Hamas. Has Gerry or Martin been on the phone to Hamas in GAza? No, and don't count on it happening as they dont want  to offend their paymasters in the USA.

You can meet all the Palestinian Ambassadors you want, but the fact that Sinn Fein support Caterpillar negates any support they might claim to have for Palestine. Trust me, the Palestinians arn't stupid, and they have seen through Sinn Fein a long time ago, especially in Gaza where they treated it a a photo opportunity and an excuse to promote their youth wing.

The SDLP also licked that Israeli Ambassadors ass a few weeks ago, and they too are spineless when it comes to Gaza. Gaza to Sinn Fin is like the Garth Brooks concerts. They see mass appeal, and they are sucking up to it. I see it, and so do the Palestinians. As for joining together, wise up. Sinn Fein will not share a platform with any other group here in the north as they can't control the message. In Dungannon they have been embarrased as only 12 showed up to their rally that they held the same time as ours. Plus, they told ALL of their members to stay away last week as Yousef spoke claiming he was Hamas.

To prove my point, the only time you have come onto this thread in 4 weeks is to promote Sinn Fein. Its pathetic, and predictable. As I have said before, when its quiet and only the dedicated still fight for Palestine, Sinn Fein are sucking up to whatever Israeli Ambassador is in town, or running around the USA with the cap out looking for donations from Pro Israeli Politicans and business men. Now don't insult my intelligence again, as i'm too long in the tooth to buy into any bullsh1t you or Sinn Fein try to spin.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Carmen Stateside on August 06, 2014, 10:31:49 AM
GHD, why is it Sinn Fein you have a gripe with? do you air your concerns when you meet them and stand side by side with them at these Rally's? Just last week i seen a photograph from Carrickmore.  Take Sinn Fein out of it and you and the guy from Gaza would have been standing on your own.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on August 06, 2014, 05:45:11 PM
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on August 06, 2014, 10:31:49 AM
GHD, why is it Sinn Fein you have a gripe with? do you air your concerns when you meet them and stand side by side with them at these Rally's? Just last week i seen a photograph from Carrickmore.  Take Sinn Fein out of it and you and the guy from Gaza would have been standing on your own.

  :-[ :-[
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: fearglasmor on August 06, 2014, 10:14:52 PM

Just listened to John Kerry on BBC World News defending Americas defence of Israels right to "defend" itself.
The world is no place for innocents.
But no surprise, ask Japan about the principle of proportionality.
We truly are capable of being a disgusting species.



Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2014, 09:36:26 AM
I think the Hamas charter is calling for the obliteration of the state of Israel, and any other Jewish controlled state that would be created in its stead. (Not necessarily Jewish people although it's hard to see how an entire nation could be subsumed into a Muslim country without major issues).

I can't see this working. The only solution I can possibly see is the two state solution, along the lines of the UN 1967 charter, with the borders being policed by an international armed force to ensure Israel does not breach the borders or try to attack or settle Palestinian land again, and to also make sure the more hardline, obliterate Israel, crew don't try and do just that.

But the solution has to be parked for the moment, the immediate priority has to be to stop the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians, and I am disgusted with the international community. Politicians really are c***ts.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 07, 2014, 01:18:49 AM
Quote from: fearglasmor on August 06, 2014, 10:14:52 PM

Just listened to John Kerry on BBC World News defending Americas defence of Israels right to "defend" itself.
The world is no place for innocents.
But no surprise, ask Japan about the principle of proportionality.
We truly are capable of being a disgusting species.



Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2014, 09:36:26 AM
I think the Hamas charter is calling for the obliteration of the state of Israel, and any other Jewish controlled state that would be created in its stead. (Not necessarily Jewish people although it's hard to see how an entire nation could be subsumed into a Muslim country without major issues).

I can't see this working. The only solution I can possibly see is the two state solution, along the lines of the UN 1967 charter, with the borders being policed by an international armed force to ensure Israel does not breach the borders or try to attack or settle Palestinian land again, and to also make sure the more hardline, obliterate Israel, crew don't try and do just that.

But the solution has to be parked for the moment, the immediate priority has to be to stop the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians, and I am disgusted with the international community. Politicians really are c***ts.

Why do you 'think' what the charter is about? Surely in this day and age you could find something definite. Some facts that could either support your thinking or cause you to think something else.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 07, 2014, 02:01:59 AM
Dowling......direct quotes from the Hamas Charter were posted up here yesterdAy and the pro Hamas folks some how felt the "obliteration" of Israel did not equate to the "obliteration" of the Jews within Israel, even though another direct quote from the charter mandated the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate with Sharia law
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on August 07, 2014, 08:43:27 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat)

If it isn't already this could be a massive humanitarian tragedy. A shit storm has been created in the middle east and i don't think anyone can stop it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on August 07, 2014, 08:56:56 AM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2014, 02:01:59 AM
Dowling......direct quotes from the Hamas Charter were posted up here yesterdAy and the pro Hamas folks some how felt the "obliteration" of Israel did not equate to the "obliteration" of the Jews within Israel, even though another direct quote from the charter mandated the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate with Sharia law

An alternative translation is the dissolution of Israel.
The eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel.

It also states "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions—Islam, Christianity and Judaism—to coexist in peace and quiet with each other"

The Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some 25 years ago but has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006". In their legistlative program they stated "The question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people." and describe the charter as "a piece of history and no longer relevant".
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 07, 2014, 09:06:10 AM
Quote from: dowling on August 07, 2014, 01:18:49 AM
Quote from: fearglasmor on August 06, 2014, 10:14:52 PM

Just listened to John Kerry on BBC World News defending Americas defence of Israels right to "defend" itself.
The world is no place for innocents.
But no surprise, ask Japan about the principle of proportionality.
We truly are capable of being a disgusting species.



Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2014, 09:36:26 AM
I think the Hamas charter is calling for the obliteration of the state of Israel, and any other Jewish controlled state that would be created in its stead. (Not necessarily Jewish people although it's hard to see how an entire nation could be subsumed into a Muslim country without major issues).

I can't see this working. The only solution I can possibly see is the two state solution, along the lines of the UN 1967 charter, with the borders being policed by an international armed force to ensure Israel does not breach the borders or try to attack or settle Palestinian land again, and to also make sure the more hardline, obliterate Israel, crew don't try and do just that.

But the solution has to be parked for the moment, the immediate priority has to be to stop the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians, and I am disgusted with the international community. Politicians really are c***ts.

Why do you 'think' what the charter is about? Surely in this day and age you could find something definite. Some facts that could either support your thinking or cause you to think something else.

I posted quotes from the charter earlier on. It is clear in its call for the obliteration of Israel. My 'thinking' is that it would also obliterate any other jewish state set up in place of Israel. That's just my opinion though.

Hope that's clear enough for you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnneycool on August 07, 2014, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 07, 2014, 08:43:27 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat)

If it isn't already this could be a massive humanitarian tragedy. A shit storm has been created in the middle east and i don't think anyone can stop it.

God, Allah,
the middle east really is a hornets nest;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/-sp-middle-east-politics-2014-egypt-syria-palestine-iraq-gaza (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/-sp-middle-east-politics-2014-egypt-syria-palestine-iraq-gaza)

I think it was last week on newsnight they had a discussion with various people/scholars etc from middle eastern countries about the advent of Isis and all the other conflicts would play out. There was more or less agreement that there'd be new borders, caliphates etc, etc, but two, one Eqyptian woman and an Al Jazera correspondent in Qatar both felt that the current unrest would end with the 'common enemy' of Israel being attacked by an unified Muslim force well armed....

This will only get worse before it gets better...

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 07, 2014, 10:18:35 AM
So it's as simplistic as that AZ and Whitey. People put selective quotes on here referring to a charter and in particular one aspect of it with out any great context and that's what judgements are based on? Have there not been people on here quoting Israeli leaders making similar type statements? When you look at the reality there is indeed one state in danger of  obliteration but it'snot Israel. I'm really not trying to get into a row here but where else do people here get their information to make their judgements on Gaza? It can't all be down to quotes from the charter posted here.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: haveaharp on August 07, 2014, 10:49:58 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 07, 2014, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 07, 2014, 08:43:27 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat)

If it isn't already this could be a massive humanitarian tragedy. A shit storm has been created in the middle east and i don't think anyone can stop it.

God, Allah,
the middle east really is a hornets nest;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/-sp-middle-east-politics-2014-egypt-syria-palestine-iraq-gaza (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/-sp-middle-east-politics-2014-egypt-syria-palestine-iraq-gaza)

I think it was last week on newsnight they had a discussion with various people/scholars etc from middle eastern countries about the advent of Isis and all the other conflicts would play out. There was more or less agreement that there'd be new borders, caliphates etc, etc, but two, one Eqyptian woman and an Al Jazera correspondent in Qatar both felt that the current unrest would end with the 'common enemy' of Israel being attacked by an unified Muslim force well armed....

This will only get worse before it gets better...

Saw the same show and the depressing conclusion was that ww3 was not a fanciful notion.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 07, 2014, 11:18:52 AM
Quote from: dowling on August 07, 2014, 10:18:35 AM
So it's as simplistic as that AZ and Whitey. People put selective quotes on here referring to a charter and in particular one aspect of it with out any great context and that's what judgements are based on? Have there not been people on here quoting Israeli leaders making similar type statements? When you look at the reality there is indeed one state in danger of  obliteration but it'snot Israel. I'm really not trying to get into a row here but where else do people here get their information to make their judgements on Gaza? It can't all be down to quotes from the charter posted here.

You make it sound as if the charter is not accurate? It's fairly unequivocal in this.

I think (sorry for the word 'think') that the Israeli state is behaving absolutely disgracefully. I believe the leaders should face war crimes tribunals for their actions in Gaza, and elsewhere. I have no doubt in my mind about it.

But when you move 10 years from now, which is what I'm trying to visualise, what is the solution? In my opinion it has to be an internationally policed enforcement of the 1967 UN Mandate. That means Israel is forced to remain within the boundaries set, and is refrained from launching attacks against Palestine or elsewhere.

It also means hardline elements who want to wipe Israel off the face of the map, as a state, are also prevented from so doing.

That is the only thing I can see any sort of stability being brought to this region. A single state solution, either Palestinian or Israeli, would be an unsustainable solution in my view unless the other party were removed from the region entirely.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 07, 2014, 02:23:52 PM
'Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions The Hamas is a Humane Movement
Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security.'

How does that sit with you AZ? as already referred to by Leo.
Tried to find the bit you put up but can't at the minute.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 07, 2014, 02:26:08 PM
What does 'Under the shadow of Islam' mean? And this... " It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. "

Given that those 'moves' or 'efforts' can be to implement an Islamic State over all of the land of Israel and Palestine, how does that stack up?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 07, 2014, 02:27:51 PM
Quote from: dowling on August 07, 2014, 02:23:52 PM
'Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions The Hamas is a Humane Movement
Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security.'

How does that sit with you AZ? as already referred to by Leo.
Tried to find the bit you put up but can't at the minute.

"It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. "

What would constitute standing in its way in order in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts.  Thats a pretty wide moat
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 07, 2014, 02:43:24 PM
This is the full Hamas covenant that I could find online. I've just posted bits I think would have to be removed or negotiated in a two state solution. The rest is there in the link.

By the way, I'm not really comfortable being painted into an 'Israel supporting' position, as I am definitely not that.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397 (http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397)

Hamas Charter (1988)

The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

"In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-doers. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped. Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save [where they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from man. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress." Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.
Introduction

Grace to Allah, whose help we seek, whose forgiveness we beseech, whose guidance we implore and on whom we rely. We pray and bid peace upon the Messenger of Allah, his family, his companions, his followers and those who spread his message and followed his tradition; they will last as long as there exist Heaven and Earth. O, people! In the midst of misadventure, from the depth of suffering, from the believing hearts and purified arms; aware of our duty and in response to the decree of Allah, we direct our call, we rally together and join each other. We educate in the path of Allah and we make our firm determination prevail so as to take its proper role in life, to overcome all difficulties and to cross all hurdles. Hence our permanent state of preparedness and our readiness to sacrifice our souls and dearest [possessions] in the path of Allah. Thus, our nucleus has formed which chartered its way in the tempestuous ocean of creeds and hopes, desires and wishes, dangers and difficulties, setbacks and challenges, both internal and external. When the thought matured, the seed grew and the plant took root in the land of reality, detached from temporary emotion and unwelcome haste, the Islamic Resistance Movement erupted in order to play its role in the path of its Lord. In so doing, it joined its hands with those of all Jihad fighters for the purpose of liberating Palestine. The souls of its Jihad fighters will encounter those of all Jihad fighters who have sacrificed their lives in the land of Palestine since it was conquered by the Companion of the Prophet, be Allah's prayer and peace upon him, and until this very day. This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: "Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messenger, lo! Allah is strong, almighty."

Part I - Knowing the Movement

Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas
By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the reinforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, the Movement is a universal one. It is apt to be that due to the clarity of its thinking, the nobility of its purpose and the loftiness of its objectives. It is in this light that the Movement has to be regarded, evaluated and acknowledged. Whoever denigrates its worth, or avoids supporting it, or is so blind as to dismiss its role, is challenging Fate itself. Whoever closes his eyes from seeing the facts, whether intentionally or not, will wake up to find himself overtaken by events, and will find no excuses to justify his position. Priority is reserved to the early comers. Oppressing those who are closest to you, is more of an agony to the soul than the impact of an Indian sword. "And unto thee have we revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto thee. For each we have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed, He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which he has given you [He has made you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto Allah, you will all return. He will then inform you of that wherein you differ." Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter. But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

.

.

Part III - Strategies and Methods



Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? "And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper." Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: "The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow." (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation
When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters. The 'ulama as well as educators and teachers, publicity and media men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of consciousness. There is no escape from introducing fundamental changes in educational curricula in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and missionaries. That invasion had begun overtaking this area following the defeat of the Crusader armies by Salah a-Din el Ayyubi. The Crusaders had understood that they had no way to vanquish the Muslims unless they prepared the grounds for that with an ideological invasion which would confuse the thinking of Muslims, revile their heritage, discredit their ideals, to be followed by a military invasion. That was to be in preparation for the Imperialist invasion, as in fact [General] Allenby acknowledged it upon his entry to Jerusalem: "Now, the Crusades are over." General Gouraud stood on the tomb of Salah a-Din and declared: "We have returned, O Salah-a-Din!" Imperialism has been instrumental in boosting the ideological invasion and deepening its roots, and it is still pursuing this goal. All this had paved the way to the loss of Palestine. We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise. It includes Islamic holy sites such as the Aqsa Mosque, which is inexorably linked to the Holy Mosque as long as the Heaven and earth will exist, to the journey of the Messenger of Allah, be Allah's peace and blessing upon him, to it, and to his ascension from it. "Dwelling one day in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. The place of the whip of one among you in Paradise is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. [God's] worshiper's going and coming in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it." (Told by Bukhari, Muslim Tirmidhi and Ibn Maja) I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim).

Part IV
Article Twenty-Eight
The Zionist invasion is a mischievous one. It does not hesitate to take any road, or to pursue all despicable and repulsive means to fulfill its desires. It relies to a great extent, for its meddling and spying activities, on the clandestine organizations which it has established, such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions, and other spying associations. All those secret organizations, some which are overt, act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions, strive to demolish societies, to destroy values, to wreck answerableness, to totter virtues and to wipe out Islam. It stands behind the diffusion of drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion. The Arab states surrounding Israel are required to open their borders to the Jihad fighters, the sons of the Arab and Islamic peoples, to enable them to play their role and to join their efforts to those of their brothers among the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The other Arab and Islamic states are required, at the very least, to facilitate the movement of the Jihad fighters from and to them. We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967 and stood at the doorstep of the Blessed Aqsa Mosque, they shouted with joy: "Muhammad is dead, he left daughters behind." Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. "Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep."

Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions The Hamas is a Humane Movement
Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions. The past and the present are full of evidence to that effect. "They will not fight you in body safe in fortified villages or from behind wells. Their adversity among themselves is very great. Ye think of them as a whole whereas their hearts are diverse. That is because they are a folk who have no sense." Sura 59 (al-Hashr, the Exile), verse 14 Islam accords his rights to everyone who has rights and averts aggression against the rights of others. The Nazi Zionist practices against our people will not last the lifetime of their invasion, for "states built upon oppression last only one hour, states based upon justice will last until the hour of Resurrection." "Allah forbids you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your houses, that you should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loves the just dealers." Sura 60 (Al-Mumtahana), verse 8.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on August 07, 2014, 05:24:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 07, 2014, 02:01:59 AM
Dowling......direct quotes from the Hamas Charter were posted up here yesterdAy and the pro Hamas folks some how felt the "obliteration" of Israel did not equate to the "obliteration" of the Jews within Israel, even though another direct quote from the charter mandated the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate with Sharia law

Posts which you had no response to whitey.

Your twisting of support for Palestinians into "pro-Hamas" smacks of the same twisting of obliteration of Israel into obliteration of Jews. Subtle enough changes but certainly ones which feed into your agenda
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 07, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 07, 2014, 02:26:08 PM
What does 'Under the shadow of Islam' mean? And this... " It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. "

Given that those 'moves' or 'efforts' can be to implement an Islamic State over all of the land of Israel and Palestine, how does that stack up?

I presume this wasn't originally written in English so the use of certain words may not be spot on in the translation.
Even so I think it would be unfair to get hung up on 'shadow' which maybe has  a different connotation to us as in a shadow hanging over something. Would it not be better to broaden your thinking on this in relation to interpretation? And the same for Whitey.
But why dwell on one aspect of the quote? Is there nothing in the rest of it that gives food for thought?

And no AZ I don't think you're pro Israel, in fact you've made it quite clear you're not.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: SLIGONIAN on August 07, 2014, 05:27:55 PM
http://scgnews.com/times-of-israel-article-when-genocide-is-permissible-just-a-little-too-honest
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 07, 2014, 08:08:29 PM
Hamas charter, very little point bringing that up, sure the Israelis keep harping back that this is their land gifted by god from roughly round 1400BC and the time of moses. Whats the first commandant - Thou shall not kill, well the Israelis are keeping to the truth of their god charter, NOT!!!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 07, 2014, 08:13:24 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 07, 2014, 08:08:29 PM
Hamas charter, very little point bringing that up, sure the Israelis keep harping back that this is their land gifted by god from roughly round 1400BC and the time of moses. Whats the first commandant - Thou shall not kill, well the Israelis are keeping to the truth of their god charter, NOT!!!

Does Hamas or Israel have a statute of limitations?

If I can trace my DNA haplogroup back to that part of the world, 4,000 or 5000 years ago, do I get some free land?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 07, 2014, 11:04:34 PM
I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on August 07, 2014, 11:18:30 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 07, 2014, 11:04:34 PM
I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

Better to do nothing equally like you than speak up against something. Like most of your points this one is full of holes. But maybe I'm wrong,  tell me what did you do for the yezidi people in Kurdistan?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on August 07, 2014, 11:21:16 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 06, 2014, 01:09:07 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 05, 2014, 07:05:14 PM

While yer at it why not fly some more flags in solidarity with Democratic Rep of Congo,Sudan,CAR,Syria etc where similar horrors are unfolding.Or Why not just bring your county flag and enjoy the match?

You're correct in that what's happening in DRC,,Syria and the likes is at least as reprehensible but our govt haven't abstained on any UN motions of censure against these conflicts, therein lies one difference


Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 07, 2014, 11:04:34 PM
I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

As I responded to you previously rossiewanderer, the difference lies in the implicit support Israel receives from the West that makes the difference. The belief is that because our govt supports Israel (or is at least passive), public opinion here may be able to persuade our govt to put some sort of pressure on Israel via the EU.

You're 100% correct though, there should be protests about these and other conflicts / oppressions





Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: charlieTully on August 07, 2014, 11:22:43 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 07, 2014, 11:04:34 PM
I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

Who left Iraq in the mess it is now? If you want to organise an aid fund I will gladly help.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 07, 2014, 11:36:40 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 07, 2014, 11:04:34 PM
I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

* We don't see those countries as first world countries. Rightly or wrongly. We are more shocked when a supposedly civilised educated people behave in such a barbaric manner.
* We know a lot more of the history of Israel, especially given what happened to them in WWII.
* The two countries you refer to are not in, or near, Europe.
* The two countries you refer to are not the centres of all of the main religions in our country.
* We have very close ties to the USA and are quite aware of the huge coverage Israel gets in the States.
* We can identify very strongly with being removed your land and have it taken by another nation.

But you still find our interest bizarre. I actually find your doing so truly bizarre.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 07, 2014, 11:56:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 07, 2014, 11:04:34 PM
I find it bizarre that the plight of the Yezidi minority in Kurdistan and Northern Iraq is going almost unnoticed in this country and the wider world.Also the christian minorities in these regions are being ethnicly cleansed at an alarming rate.

These people are being massacred as we speak woman and children alike and face extermination at the hands of the advancing ISIS .Their are no symbolic protests or fags for these innocent peoples.
All human life is equal.

You probably have fair point. Why don't you start a thread and put something informative on that can be a starting point for discussion. And see what happens. Perhaps most of us need to know the greater details but, yea go for it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
I do not see support for Palestine as bizarre at all.children and civilians have been killed,It is horrendous.Their is a natural empathy from this country which

I do however have issues with some Palestine supporters especially in this country;
The work shy hippy brigade that think its cool to go to protests and confront police
The moronic idiots that think its hip to have a Palestine flag in a pub while sinking pints and spouting drivel.
Also those who cannot deal with an honest opinion that is not entirely Pro Palestine or Hamas.


Can anyone explain why Hamas did not evacuate Woman and Children from Gaza City to the sparsely populated southern end of Gaza when it became clear that the Israeli war machine was going to result in the deaths of children,babies,woman and civilians alike?





Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 08, 2014, 01:35:28 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
I do not see support for Palestine as bizarre at all.children and civilians have been killed,It is horrendous.Their is a natural empathy from this country which

I do however have issues with some Palestine supporters especially in this country;
The work shy hippy brigade that think its cool to go to protests and confront police
The moronic idiots that think its hip to have a Palestine flag in a pub while sinking pints and spouting drivel.
Also those who cannot deal with an honest opinion that is not entirely Pro Palestine or Hamas.


Can anyone explain why Hamas did not evacuate Woman and Children from Gaza City to the sparsely populated southern end of Gaza when it became clear that the Israeli war machine was going to result in the deaths of children,babies,woman and civilians alike?

I have been severely critical of Hamas long before this war, Dixie even compared me to the Israeli Government spokesman, but sometimes desperate men do desperately stupid things. That is not to condone the rockets, I think it is actually treasonous for Hamas to fire those rockets as it means certain death for Palestinian civilians.

Some of the arguments supporting Israel's actions on the other hand are absolutely ludicrous.

'Israel has a right to defend itself' - becomes they can kill as many Palestinian civilians as they wish.
'Israel has a right to exist' - becomes Israel can prevent the Palestinians from having any normal society.
'Hamas is a terrorist organisation' - becomes Israel can impose terrorism on Palestine.

I don't disagree with any of the statements on the left, but they are twisted beyond all recognition to justify the actions on the right.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: bcarrier on August 08, 2014, 07:53:21 AM
https://twitter.com/liamfishwalsh/status/497543374925463552
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on August 08, 2014, 08:55:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2014, 01:35:28 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
I do not see support for Palestine as bizarre at all.children and civilians have been killed,It is horrendous.Their is a natural empathy from this country which

I do however have issues with some Palestine supporters especially in this country;
The work shy hippy brigade that think its cool to go to protests and confront police
The moronic idiots that think its hip to have a Palestine flag in a pub while sinking pints and spouting drivel.
Also those who cannot deal with an honest opinion that is not entirely Pro Palestine or Hamas.


Can anyone explain why Hamas did not evacuate Woman and Children from Gaza City to the sparsely populated southern end of Gaza when it became clear that the Israeli war machine was going to result in the deaths of children,babies,woman and civilians alike?

I have been severely critical of Hamas long before this war, Dixie even compared me to the Israeli Government spokesman, but sometimes desperate men do desperately stupid things. That is not to condone the rockets, I think it is actually treasonous for Hamas to fire those rockets as it means certain death for Palestinian civilians.

Some of the arguments supporting Israel's actions on the other hand are absolutely ludicrous.

'Israel has a right to defend itself' - becomes they can kill as many Palestinian civilians as they wish.
'Israel has a right to exist' - becomes Israel can prevent the Palestinians from having any normal society.
'Hamas is a terrorist organisation' - becomes Israel can impose terrorism on Palestine.

I don't disagree with any of the statements on the left, but they are twisted beyond all recognition to justify the actions on the right.

In addition to all that muppet i would love to see the full truth on hamas firing of rockets for this current waive of israeli violence. From what i can gather:

1. 3 tennage israelis get killed
2. Israel blame hamas and start wreaking havoc
3. Hamas start firing rockets
4. Israel continue violence saying they want to wipeout hamas tunnels

2 has since been admitted to be wrong.

You read varying things on this but i have read pre all of this the last hamas rocket was november. I may be being very naiave but is there any truth in this??
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dferg on August 08, 2014, 10:23:01 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
I do however have issues with some Palestine supporters especially in this country;
The work shy hippy brigade that think its cool to go to protests and confront police
The moronic idiots that think its hip to have a Palestine flag in a pub while sinking pints and spouting drivel.
Also those who cannot deal with an honest opinion that is not entirely Pro Palestine or Hamas.

No hippies
No one who thinks it's cool to protest
No one who drinks pints in a pub and expresses a pro Palestine opinion
Surely you don't want Nordies???

What would be an acceptable Palestine supporter?

Church going
White collar worker
Keeps there opinion to themselves

Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
Can anyone explain why Hamas did not evacuate Woman and Children from Gaza City to the sparsely populated southern end of Gaza when it became clear that the Israeli war machine was going to result in the deaths of children,babies,woman and civilians alike?

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

The Palestinians where going to UN refugee camps.

http://www.rttnews.com/2362479/us-demands-israeli-investigation-into-shelling-of-un-refugee-camps-in-gaza.aspx
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: nrico2006 on August 08, 2014, 12:05:00 PM
Why is the Palestine situation the only conflict that has received so much support in the way of protests etc?  Why was there not the same level of protest and awareness against the other countless conflicts over the past few years?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 08, 2014, 12:06:21 PM
This is bullying, and is highly visible. It's a war crime, and maybe, just maybe, western people can do something to force Israel to listen and stop.

what other conflicts did you have in mind?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 12:17:47 PM
Quote from: dferg on August 08, 2014, 10:23:01 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
I do however have issues with some Palestine supporters especially in this country;
The work shy hippy brigade that think its cool to go to protests and confront police
The moronic idiots that think its hip to have a Palestine flag in a pub while sinking pints and spouting drivel.
Also those who cannot deal with an honest opinion that is not entirely Pro Palestine or Hamas.

No hippies
No one who thinks it's cool to protest
No one who drinks pints in a pub and expresses a pro Palestine opinion
Surely you don't want Nordies???

What would be an acceptable Palestine supporter?

Church going
White collar worker
Keeps there opinion to themselves

Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
Can anyone explain why Hamas did not evacuate Woman and Children from Gaza City to the sparsely populated southern end of Gaza when it became clear that the Israeli war machine was going to result in the deaths of children,babies,woman and civilians alike?

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

The Palestinians where going to UN refugee camps.

http://www.rttnews.com/2362479/us-demands-israeli-investigation-into-shelling-of-un-refugee-camps-in-gaza.aspx


Their is plenty of open space in southern Gaza away from the city where you could have refugee camps without having Hamas weapons in them or nearby and giving Israel an excuse to shell.


Their are plenty of good people involved in the Palestine protests who have a natural empathy and a deep feeling for the people of Gaza/Israel and who are making efforts to help in a financial and symbolic capacity.

However I do believe it is Hi jacked by a large minority of idiots as exemplified in this board.
And on the streets by People who have willfully never worked in their lives and jump from one anarchist type bandwagon to the next.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 08, 2014, 12:21:13 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 08, 2014, 08:55:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2014, 01:35:28 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
I do not see support for Palestine as bizarre at all.children and civilians have been killed,It is horrendous.Their is a natural empathy from this country which

I do however have issues with some Palestine supporters especially in this country;
The work shy hippy brigade that think its cool to go to protests and confront police
The moronic idiots that think its hip to have a Palestine flag in a pub while sinking pints and spouting drivel.
Also those who cannot deal with an honest opinion that is not entirely Pro Palestine or Hamas.


Can anyone explain why Hamas did not evacuate Woman and Children from Gaza City to the sparsely populated southern end of Gaza when it became clear that the Israeli war machine was going to result in the deaths of children,babies,woman and civilians alike?

I have been severely critical of Hamas long before this war, Dixie even compared me to the Israeli Government spokesman, but sometimes desperate men do desperately stupid things. That is not to condone the rockets, I think it is actually treasonous for Hamas to fire those rockets as it means certain death for Palestinian civilians.

Some of the arguments supporting Israel's actions on the other hand are absolutely ludicrous.

'Israel has a right to defend itself' - becomes they can kill as many Palestinian civilians as they wish.
'Israel has a right to exist' - becomes Israel can prevent the Palestinians from having any normal society.
'Hamas is a terrorist organisation' - becomes Israel can impose terrorism on Palestine.

I don't disagree with any of the statements on the left, but they are twisted beyond all recognition to justify the actions on the right.

In addition to all that muppet i would love to see the full truth on hamas firing of rockets for this current waive of israeli violence. From what i can gather:

1. 3 tennage israelis get killed
2. Israel blame hamas and start wreaking havoc
3. Hamas start firing rockets
4. Israel continue violence saying they want to wipeout hamas tunnels

2 has since been admitted to be wrong.

You read varying things on this but i have read pre all of this the last hamas rocket was november. I may be being very naiave but is there any truth in this??

This is correct, but for 'start wreaking havoc' read - they arrested around 361 'Hamas activists' to find the missing boys. This was despite them already knowing the boys were already dead (RIP) and that Hamas were not actually involved. It would appear that Netanyahu or his cohorts engineered the situation to outrage his constituency and justify an invasion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2666001/Israel-nabs-suspects-Passover-shooting.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2666001/Israel-nabs-suspects-Passover-shooting.html)

The announcement came as Israel pressed forward with a crackdown on Hamas across the West Bank in response to the June 12 disappearance of three Israeli teenagers. Israel has said the Islamic militant group abducted the youths, though it has presented no proof.

The kidnappings have prompted the largest Israeli ground operation in the West Bank in nearly a decade, as troops frantically search for the youths. Israel has said its secondary goal is to destroy Hamas "infrastructure" in the West Bank.

Since launching the operation, Israel has detained 361 Palestinians, including 250 Hamas operatives and 57 former prisoners released in 2011. The army said it has also raided 63 Hamas civilian institutions.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 08, 2014, 12:26:08 PM
"The Palestinian people's resistance in Gaza today is admirable, it is fair and it is a struggle for all of us. We do not want a world where raw power can be abused, to kill those who struggle for justice."

"The heart of the Earth beats in Gaza now. It bleeds, but it beats," says Dr. Mads Gilbert, the Norwegian emergency surgeon who returned to his home city of Tromsø on 31 July, after spending several weeks treating the wounded from Israel's assault at Gaza City's al-Shifa Hospital.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-palestinian-resistance-gaza-fighting-all-us-says-dr-mads-gilbert
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 08, 2014, 01:20:22 PM
I include the USA in 'Western people'. If Europe shows solidarity, maybe it will start seeping through to the masses in the US that this is maybe not about Israel 'defending itself' against the hated 'Muslim'
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 08, 2014, 01:56:07 PM
A small gesture or protest on its own wont achieve anything of course but what small acts on their own can do is raise awareness of a situation and cause people to question the rights and wrongs of actions. And hopefully things build from there.
It isn't hard to be pessimistic but there are many people doing many good things and there has to be a belief that things will change.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on August 08, 2014, 01:59:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2014, 12:21:13 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 08, 2014, 08:55:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2014, 01:35:28 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
I do not see support for Palestine as bizarre at all.children and civilians have been killed,It is horrendous.Their is a natural empathy from this country which

I do however have issues with some Palestine supporters especially in this country;
The work shy hippy brigade that think its cool to go to protests and confront police
The moronic idiots that think its hip to have a Palestine flag in a pub while sinking pints and spouting drivel.
Also those who cannot deal with an honest opinion that is not entirely Pro Palestine or Hamas.


Can anyone explain why Hamas did not evacuate Woman and Children from Gaza City to the sparsely populated southern end of Gaza when it became clear that the Israeli war machine was going to result in the deaths of children,babies,woman and civilians alike?

I have been severely critical of Hamas long before this war, Dixie even compared me to the Israeli Government spokesman, but sometimes desperate men do desperately stupid things. That is not to condone the rockets, I think it is actually treasonous for Hamas to fire those rockets as it means certain death for Palestinian civilians.

Some of the arguments supporting Israel's actions on the other hand are absolutely ludicrous.

'Israel has a right to defend itself' - becomes they can kill as many Palestinian civilians as they wish.
'Israel has a right to exist' - becomes Israel can prevent the Palestinians from having any normal society.
'Hamas is a terrorist organisation' - becomes Israel can impose terrorism on Palestine.

I don't disagree with any of the statements on the left, but they are twisted beyond all recognition to justify the actions on the right.

In addition to all that muppet i would love to see the full truth on hamas firing of rockets for this current waive of israeli violence. From what i can gather:

1. 3 tennage israelis get killed
2. Israel blame hamas and start wreaking havoc
3. Hamas start firing rockets
4. Israel continue violence saying they want to wipeout hamas tunnels

2 has since been admitted to be wrong.

You read varying things on this but i have read pre all of this the last hamas rocket was november. I may be being very naiave but is there any truth in this??

This is correct, but for 'start wreaking havoc' read - they arrested around 361 'Hamas activists' to find the missing boys. This was despite them already knowing the boys were already dead (RIP) and that Hamas were not actually involved. It would appear that Netanyahu or his cohorts engineered the situation to outrage his constituency and justify an invasion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2666001/Israel-nabs-suspects-Passover-shooting.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2666001/Israel-nabs-suspects-Passover-shooting.html)

The announcement came as Israel pressed forward with a crackdown on Hamas across the West Bank in response to the June 12 disappearance of three Israeli teenagers. Israel has said the Islamic militant group abducted the youths, though it has presented no proof.

The kidnappings have prompted the largest Israeli ground operation in the West Bank in nearly a decade, as troops frantically search for the youths. Israel has said its secondary goal is to destroy Hamas "infrastructure" in the West Bank.

Since launching the operation, Israel has detained 361 Palestinians, including 250 Hamas operatives and 57 former prisoners released in 2011. The army said it has also raided 63 Hamas civilian institutions.


Were there not quite a few bombs / deaths thrown in with the arrests though muppet?

When you break it down to the very basic timeline of how the current conflict began it is quite staggering what lies we have been fed through the media and really should be eye opening to a lot of people.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 08, 2014, 02:02:36 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 08, 2014, 01:59:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2014, 12:21:13 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 08, 2014, 08:55:26 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2014, 01:35:28 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 08, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
I do not see support for Palestine as bizarre at all.children and civilians have been killed,It is horrendous.Their is a natural empathy from this country which

I do however have issues with some Palestine supporters especially in this country;
The work shy hippy brigade that think its cool to go to protests and confront police
The moronic idiots that think its hip to have a Palestine flag in a pub while sinking pints and spouting drivel.
Also those who cannot deal with an honest opinion that is not entirely Pro Palestine or Hamas.


Can anyone explain why Hamas did not evacuate Woman and Children from Gaza City to the sparsely populated southern end of Gaza when it became clear that the Israeli war machine was going to result in the deaths of children,babies,woman and civilians alike?

I have been severely critical of Hamas long before this war, Dixie even compared me to the Israeli Government spokesman, but sometimes desperate men do desperately stupid things. That is not to condone the rockets, I think it is actually treasonous for Hamas to fire those rockets as it means certain death for Palestinian civilians.

Some of the arguments supporting Israel's actions on the other hand are absolutely ludicrous.

'Israel has a right to defend itself' - becomes they can kill as many Palestinian civilians as they wish.
'Israel has a right to exist' - becomes Israel can prevent the Palestinians from having any normal society.
'Hamas is a terrorist organisation' - becomes Israel can impose terrorism on Palestine.

I don't disagree with any of the statements on the left, but they are twisted beyond all recognition to justify the actions on the right.

In addition to all that muppet i would love to see the full truth on hamas firing of rockets for this current waive of israeli violence. From what i can gather:

1. 3 tennage israelis get killed
2. Israel blame hamas and start wreaking havoc
3. Hamas start firing rockets
4. Israel continue violence saying they want to wipeout hamas tunnels

2 has since been admitted to be wrong.

You read varying things on this but i have read pre all of this the last hamas rocket was november. I may be being very naiave but is there any truth in this??

This is correct, but for 'start wreaking havoc' read - they arrested around 361 'Hamas activists' to find the missing boys. This was despite them already knowing the boys were already dead (RIP) and that Hamas were not actually involved. It would appear that Netanyahu or his cohorts engineered the situation to outrage his constituency and justify an invasion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2666001/Israel-nabs-suspects-Passover-shooting.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2666001/Israel-nabs-suspects-Passover-shooting.html)

The announcement came as Israel pressed forward with a crackdown on Hamas across the West Bank in response to the June 12 disappearance of three Israeli teenagers. Israel has said the Islamic militant group abducted the youths, though it has presented no proof.

The kidnappings have prompted the largest Israeli ground operation in the West Bank in nearly a decade, as troops frantically search for the youths. Israel has said its secondary goal is to destroy Hamas "infrastructure" in the West Bank.

Since launching the operation, Israel has detained 361 Palestinians, including 250 Hamas operatives and 57 former prisoners released in 2011. The army said it has also raided 63 Hamas civilian institutions.


Were there not quite a few bombs / deaths thrown in with the arrests though muppet?

When you break it down to the very basic timeline of how the current conflict began it is quite staggering what lies we have been fed through the media and really should be eye opening to a lot of people.

Honestly don't know, but I doubt if it was all nicely ringing the doorbell.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on August 08, 2014, 02:14:21 PM
I think there was a bit of damage done if I recall correctly.

Anyway yours is an opinion I would strongly agree with really. Questioning hamas seems tabu in this thread as they do a lot of bad but at the minute there is genocide going on in Palestine and the west are contributing / backing it a lot through the various media and governments and it is disgusting.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Aoise on August 08, 2014, 03:35:38 PM
For anyone with an interest, please watch this. This man has dedicated his life lecturing on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. He was arrested last week as he protested. You may not agree with him but I find his points hard to dispute, infact IMO it's the best summation of what is currently happening that I have heard yet. And he is Jewish!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JvBZhe7nU2M
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 08, 2014, 03:56:48 PM
The whole thing is so fvcked up I don't know how they'll ever fix it

Just saw that US bombed ISIS in Iraq this morning (who thoroughly deserved it IMHO) yet 150,000 people have been massacred in Syria and no-one had the balls to do anything.

Now looks like its going to kick off in Gaza again with the ceasefire breaking down.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: The Iceman on August 08, 2014, 09:59:59 PM
 WARNING extremely graphic images:
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481 (http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481)
The ISIS militants in Iraq are as bad as I have seen. You hear of these horror stories but rarely do you see real footage of them. Yet the world continues on with reports of the weather, transfer news from the soccer world and the price of petrol.....
Funny I just watch the film Noah during the week. It's near time we were all wiped out again for the way things are today.....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 08, 2014, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 08, 2014, 09:59:59 PM
WARNING extremely graphic images:
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481 (http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481)
The ISIS militants in Iraq are as bad as I have seen. You hear of these horror stories but rarely do you see real footage of them. Yet the world continues on with reports of the weather, transfer news from the soccer world and the price of petrol.....
Funny I just watch the film Noah during the week. It's near time we were all wiped out again for the way things are today.....

I know ISIS has loads of money, but does anyone know who is selling them weapons?

I think it is time the UN got the heads of the various religions together and got them to find a way to put an end to religious persecution. Just this week we have Jews slaughtering Muslims & Muslims slaughtering Christians, all in the name of God. If the leaders of these wars are even fractionally as religious as they pretend, excommunication or whatever the equivalent is in their religions wouldn't look good to the troops. These scumbags hide behind religion and twist the dogma to suit their agendas. Maybe the dogma can be used against them?

Because if we have learned anything at all, going in an bombing the shit out of the place only perpetuates the war and never ends it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 09, 2014, 12:44:28 AM
How did you know they had loads of money?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Syferus on August 09, 2014, 12:47:31 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2014, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 08, 2014, 09:59:59 PM
WARNING extremely graphic images:
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481 (http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481)
The ISIS militants in Iraq are as bad as I have seen. You hear of these horror stories but rarely do you see real footage of them. Yet the world continues on with reports of the weather, transfer news from the soccer world and the price of petrol.....
Funny I just watch the film Noah during the week. It's near time we were all wiped out again for the way things are today.....

I know ISIS has loads of money, but does anyone know who is selling them weapons?

I think it is time the UN got the heads of the various religions together and got them to find a way to put an end to religious persecution. Just this week we have Jews slaughtering Muslims & Muslims slaughtering Christians, all in the name of God. If the leaders of these wars are even fractionally as religious as they pretend, excommunication or whatever the equivalent is in their religions wouldn't look good to the troops. These scumbags hide behind religion and twist the dogma to suit their agendas. Maybe the dogma can be used against them?

Because if we have learned anything at all, going in an bombing the shit out of the place only perpetuates the war and never ends it.

Do you think extremists are listening to mainline religious leaders in the first place, though?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 09, 2014, 12:48:28 AM
Whats happening in Gaza is proof that no god exists so getting the religions together will only confront them with their pointlessness.

Its not a message that will go down well I think.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 09, 2014, 01:11:39 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 09, 2014, 12:47:31 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2014, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on August 08, 2014, 09:59:59 PM
WARNING extremely graphic images:
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481 (http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481)
The ISIS militants in Iraq are as bad as I have seen. You hear of these horror stories but rarely do you see real footage of them. Yet the world continues on with reports of the weather, transfer news from the soccer world and the price of petrol.....
Funny I just watch the film Noah during the week. It's near time we were all wiped out again for the way things are today.....

I know ISIS has loads of money, but does anyone know who is selling them weapons?

I think it is time the UN got the heads of the various religions together and got them to find a way to put an end to religious persecution. Just this week we have Jews slaughtering Muslims & Muslims slaughtering Christians, all in the name of God. If the leaders of these wars are even fractionally as religious as they pretend, excommunication or whatever the equivalent is in their religions wouldn't look good to the troops. These scumbags hide behind religion and twist the dogma to suit their agendas. Maybe the dogma can be used against them?

Because if we have learned anything at all, going in an bombing the shit out of the place only perpetuates the war and never ends it.

Do you think extremists are listening to mainline religious leaders in the first place, though?

Will you do me a favour and explain for me what an extremist is.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 09, 2014, 01:45:39 AM
Quote from: dowling on August 09, 2014, 12:44:28 AM
How did you know they had loads of money?

Every newspaper article I've read about them makes that claim.

We probably bailed them out.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on August 09, 2014, 03:30:46 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 09, 2014, 01:45:39 AM
Quote from: dowling on August 09, 2014, 12:44:28 AM
How did you know they had loads of money?

Every newspaper article I've read about them makes that claim.

We probably bailed them out.

They actually stole $500,000,000 from a bank. I heard it mentioned on various news sources.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 09, 2014, 04:26:48 AM
Quote from: dowling on August 09, 2014, 01:11:39 AM
Will you do me a favour and explain for me what an extremist is.

Depends what the meaning of "is" is.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 09, 2014, 01:18:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 08, 2014, 12:26:08 PM
"The Palestinian people's resistance in Gaza today is admirable, it is fair and it is a struggle for all of us. We do not want a world where raw power can be abused, to kill those who struggle for justice."

"The heart of the Earth beats in Gaza now. It bleeds, but it beats," says Dr. Mads Gilbert, the Norwegian emergency surgeon who returned to his home city of Tromsø on 31 July, after spending several weeks treating the wounded from Israel's assault at Gaza City's al-Shifa Hospital.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-palestinian-resistance-gaza-fighting-all-us-says-dr-mads-gilbert

Very profound testimony
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on August 09, 2014, 07:29:42 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 09, 2014, 12:48:28 AM
Whats happening in Gaza is proof that no god exists so getting the religions together will only confront them with their pointlessness.

Its not a message that will go down well I think.

Really? How so?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 09, 2014, 07:39:42 PM
Quote from: stew on August 09, 2014, 07:29:42 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 09, 2014, 12:48:28 AM
Whats happening in Gaza is proof that no god exists so getting the religions together will only confront them with their pointlessness.

Its not a message that will go down well I think.

Really? How so?

On the contrary, both Israel and Hamas claim to be representing their religions. Israel is a religious state, and an apartheid state at that, while Hamas would obviously want the same if they got a state of their own.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 09, 2014, 08:04:14 PM
Can anyone make sense of this? Particularly if you are a US taxpayer?

Retweeted by mark little
Tom Gara ‏@tomgara  1h

US is biggest UNRWA donor. In Gaza, US weapons are used to destroy US funded infrastructure, in Iraq, US weapons used to destroy US weapons.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: SLIGONIAN on August 10, 2014, 09:26:51 PM
http://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/penelope-cruz-and-javier-bardem-face-fury-of-hollywood-following-genocide-letter-condemning-israel-30497285.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on August 10, 2014, 09:42:50 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on August 10, 2014, 09:26:51 PM
http://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/penelope-cruz-and-javier-bardem-face-fury-of-hollywood-following-genocide-letter-condemning-israel-30497285.html

Being labelled as Anti-Semetic I see. No surprise there. These people have no shame.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 12, 2014, 08:47:44 AM
Why British people are protesting about Gaza, not Iraq

We have a deep movement in solidarity with Palestinians and our government is complicit in Israel's oppression of them

Lindsey German
theguardian.com, Monday 11 August 2014 12.45 EDT


The hundreds of thousands who have taken to the streets of Britain over the past month in support of and solidarity with the people of Gaza have seen their protests denounced by neocons and rightwingers because they aren't about some other group of people, somewhere else.

The "why don't they march against something else" crowd accuse us of silence on those atrocities. There are certainly many terrible humanitarian disasters in the world, most recently that of the Yazidis in Iraq, about which we must all feel anguish. Our argument is that our government and the US's past intervention have not helped the people of the Middle East, but made things worse. The point of a mass demonstration is to put pressure on our government and to alter public opinion in this country. They have had an impact. Public opinion remains strongly anti-intervention and anti-war, and last year, mobilised public opinion was instrumental in stopping David Cameron's attempt to bomb Syria.

Last Saturday's demonstration was the biggest ever pro-Palestine protest at 150,000. There have been thousands of smaller actions around the country. There is widespread outrage at Israel's brutal assault on Gaza and a determination to end the siege which is causing such misery to Gazans.

Why do people feel strongly enough to take to the streets over Gaza but not over other issues? Partly because there is a deep and longstanding movement in solidarity with the Palestinians that encompasses trade unions, community groups, faith groups and activists. But it is also partly because our government is seen as complicit in Israel's oppression of Palestinians. We provide arms, we trade with Israel and we defend the actions of the government there, just as we did in 2008-09 and 2012 when Gaza was bombed.

Our former prime minister and absurdly named envoy for peace in the Middle East, Tony Blair, supports Israel's foreign policy. David Cameron, according to Sayeeda Warsi, instructed his ministers not to say Israel's bombing might be disproportionate, and blames the conflict on Hamas although it long predates Hamas's existence. While sanctions are applied to Russia over the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 disaster, no sanctions are imposed on Israel.

Contrast this with Cameron's support for intervention elsewhere and look at the consequences of those interventions. Libya, hailed as a huge success by Cameron three years ago, is now so riven by war that embassies have closed and British nationals evacuated by the Royal Navy. The arming of the Syrian rebels by western and Middle East powers, especially Turkey and Saudi Arabia, has produced blowback on a spectacular scale as Islamic State (Isis) sets up its bloody caliphate across hundreds of miles of Iraq and Syria, with disastrous consequences.

The terrible plight of the Yazidis, trapped by Isis and fearing a terrible fate if captured, is heart-rending but will not be helped by further military intervention in Iraq. The occupation of Iraq broke the infrastructure of Iraqi society. Sectarian tensions were encouraged and exacerbated by the occupying forces, and some of those now supporting Isis formed the opposition to this occupation.

Many people know that UK government foreign policy, far from solving problems, causes more humanitarian disaster. In a democracy, anyone is of course entitled to demonstrate over a range of issues. So maybe those Tory bloggers, shock jocks and neocons who are such warriors on social media should head down to Hyde Park and see how many they get around them for more military intervention.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 14, 2014, 07:36:49 PM
Palestinians in Gaza send a message of thanks to the people in Tyrone and Derry who recently donated to Yousef Al-Helou during his recent speaking tour in both counties.

They also highlight the devastation of their homes and neighbourhood in Gaza. The money raised was immediatly put to work just days after it was donated, and it went to providing medicine, food and water to those most in need right now.

To each and every person who donated, on behalf of Yousef and myself, from the bottom of our hearts, thank you. You lit up the faces of Palestinians in Gaza, and they are so very thankful for you genorsity and solidarity.

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10577141_10152665449249314_6392035927722293161_n.jpg)


(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/16706_10152665449354314_476510686239969268_n.jpg?oh=28d3a3a1429b834b3c129a34ddd430b8&oe=547F064D)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10550878_10152665449434314_8814317876940566446_n.jpg?oh=a7f567e5c8897e9d081cc0b8dbab3f10&oe=54684BE4&__gda__=1417106305_98a1e7efe2234710eb14f7d945b33561)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10565046_10152665449504314_7798273735103213304_n.jpg?oh=92abc5138f71a36919123aa8066b6326&oe=5478A47B&__gda__=1416734927_3b422786d71c04807121cf8e73e28737)

(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10542815_10152665449719314_8901443811420201620_n.jpg?oh=6b616065cf7b547780d9758277627972&oe=5469AA97)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10522150_10152665449709314_729598026772669545_n.jpg)

(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10428449_10152665451629314_1237399873063011181_n.jpg?oh=9434c36c11fffe42f2dcef0029031ef0&oe=547ADC30)

(//)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on August 14, 2014, 11:29:20 PM
Fair play GHD, good work
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: balladmaker on August 14, 2014, 11:49:35 PM
'A Song of Liberty for Gaza' - The Wolfe Tones - Proceeds go to Trocaire's Gaza fund to aid those in need of emergency assistance:

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/a-song-of-liberty-for-gaza/id909113349?i=909113357 (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/a-song-of-liberty-for-gaza/id909113349?i=909113357)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on August 15, 2014, 02:12:48 AM
This is great however what about area's of the world suffering ssni molar pain that has no voice representing them? I find this sad, particularly Africa@ At what does the west give two Shiites?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 15, 2014, 12:53:22 PM
Have a look at this video to see the brutal ugly face of Zionism. This is whats driving the Government, and what we see in Gaza

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=486950887994427
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Seamus on August 16, 2014, 02:21:16 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 09, 2014, 08:04:14 PM
Can anyone make sense of this? Particularly if you are a US taxpayer?

Retweeted by mark little
Tom Gara ‏@tomgara  1h

US is biggest UNRWA donor. In Gaza, US weapons are used to destroy US funded infrastructure, in Iraq, US weapons used to destroy US weapons.

The US funds both sides of almost every war. Example: ISIS trained and armed by the US. Their friends in Syria and their so called enemy in Iraq
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on August 16, 2014, 05:05:14 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2723884/Disgust-Israeli-soldier-spotted-laughing-drinking-Jerusalem-bar-wearing-Deployed-Destroyed-Enjoyed-Gaza-2014T-shirt.html?ito=social-facebook (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2723884/Disgust-Israeli-soldier-spotted-laughing-drinking-Jerusalem-bar-wearing-Deployed-Destroyed-Enjoyed-Gaza-2014T-shirt.html?ito=social-facebook)

Nice.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dowling on August 17, 2014, 10:49:58 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 08, 2014, 12:05:00 PM
Why is the Palestine situation the only conflict that has received so much support in the way of protests etc?  Why was there not the same level of protest and awareness against the other countless conflicts over the past few years?


Thought you might have been on shouting for a need for air strikes against Israel.

Obviously you weren't that serious.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 06:34:45 AM
I could have sworn the "what about all the non-Arab-Israeli conflicts and why aren't yiz kicking up a stink about them" question had been answered, but let me try to answer the whatabouters in the hope that they'll stop repeating the same damn question and a million variations thereon:


If that answers your question, please stop repeating it like a broken record.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 18, 2014, 10:12:23 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/18/arab-israeli-wedding-protest-four-arrested

"Israeli police on Sunday blocked more than 200 far-right Israeli protesters from rushing guests at a wedding of a Jewish woman and Muslim man as they shouted "death to the Arabs" in a sign of tensions stoked by the Gaza war.

Several dozen police, including members of the force's elite units, formed human chains to keep the protesters from the wedding hall's gates and chased after many who defied them. Four protesters were arrested, and there were no injuries.

A lawyer for the couple, Maral Malka, 23, and Mahmoud Mansour, 26, both from the Jaffa section of Tel Aviv, had unsuccessfully sought a court order to ban the protest. He obtained backing for police to keep protesters 200 metres from the wedding hall in the Tel Aviv suburb of Rishon Lezion.

The protest highlighted a rise in tensions between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel in the past two months amid a monthlong Gaza war, the kidnap and slaying of three Israeli teens in June followed by a revenge choking and torching to death of a Palestinian teen in the Jerusalem area.

A group called Lehava, which organised the wedding demonstration, has harassed Jewish-Arab couples in the past, often citing religious grounds for their objections to intermarriage. But they have rarely protested at the site of a wedding."
Lehava spokesman and former lawmaker Michael Ben-Ari denounced Jews intermarrying with non-Jews of any denomination as "worse than what Hitler did", alluding to the murder of six million Jews across Europe in the second world war."


Some say love is worse than Hitler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR6okRuOLc8
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 18, 2014, 05:07:11 PM
The Israel Defense Forces demolished the homes of two suspects in June's kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens late Monday night, while additionally sealing off the residence of a third suspect.

After midnight, some 250 border policemen arrived at the area along with dozens of soldiers from the Engineering Corps in conjuction and soldiers of the Judaea and Samaria Divison to demolish the homes of Hussam Kawasama and Amer Abu Aisha, while sealing off the entrance to the cellar where Marwan Kawasama's resided. According to the Border Police spokesman, the mission took about six hours, and confrontations erupted at the site, which were all "dispersed promptly."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.611046
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 07:44:16 PM
About this "this is a courtesy call to tell you your house is going to be obliterated in one minute" business.  How exactly does that keep Israel safe? Just supposing everyone gets out (which is by no means certain) what good does it do to demolish a house with nobody in it?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 18, 2014, 09:09:52 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 07:44:16 PM
About this "this is a courtesy call to tell you your house is going to be obliterated in one minute" business.  How exactly does that keep Israel safe? Just supposing everyone gets out (which is by no means certain) what good does it do to demolish a house with nobody in it?
Israel runs campaigns designed to terrorise Gaza. The notion is that if Israel applies enough cruelty the people will overthrow Hamas.
It's very biblical, really. It ignores Jewish historical experience too.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 18, 2014, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 07:44:16 PM
About this "this is a courtesy call to tell you your house is going to be obliterated in one minute" business.  How exactly does that keep Israel safe? Just supposing everyone gets out (which is by no means certain) what good does it do to demolish a house with nobody in it?

Israel banned construction materials from being brought into Gaza, in 2007, as it could be used for 'terrorist activities'. This ban was relaxed somewhat last year but I suspect it is back in place now. Bombing somewhere that is denied the ability to re-built is only going one direction.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 18, 2014, 10:07:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 18, 2014, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 07:44:16 PM
About this "this is a courtesy call to tell you your house is going to be obliterated in one minute" business.  How exactly does that keep Israel safe? Just supposing everyone gets out (which is by no means certain) what good does it do to demolish a house with nobody in it?

Israel banned construction materials from being brought into Gaza, in 2007, as it could be used for 'terrorist activities'. This ban was relaxed somewhat last year but I suspect it is back in place now. Bombing somewhere that is denied the ability to re-built is only going one direction.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/07/uk-mideast-gaza-germany-idUKKBN0G71P320140807

"Lieberman told Thursday's mass-selling German daily Bild that Germany had a "very significant" role to play in preventing an economic and humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, where Israel and Egypt maintain tight restrictions on the movement of goods and people to try to prevent arms reaching Islamist militants."

The Germans will be expected to feed Gaza when the system collapses there and people start dying from infectious diseases.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 12:46:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 06:34:45 AM
I could have sworn the "what about all the non-Arab-Israeli conflicts and why aren't yiz kicking up a stink about them" question had been answered, but let me try to answer the whatabouters in the hope that they'll stop repeating the same damn question and a million variations thereon:


  • Because on an emotional level, Irish people feel a strong sense of empathy with the Palestinians because of the similarity of their situation to Ireland's historical situation
  • Because Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein's Iraq ever was and has been getting away with it for a whole lot longer
  • Because Israel is a terrorist apartheid state that has managed, through the most efficient propaganda system I have ever seen, to convince large swathes of the western public that it is a civilized, modern, democratic state that is only acting in self defence against unprovoked attacks
  • Because Israel has managed to wipe from the western consciousness the existence of about a million Palestinians living in refugee camps since the ethnic cleansing job of 1967
  • Because Israel has managed to repeat the mantra over and over again that it has a "right to exist" (which is code for justifying the ethnic cleansing on which the state is built) and has a "right to defend itself" (which is code for slaughtering scores of innocent Palestinians as collective punishment for the actions of a small group of militants).
  • Because Israel, the aggressor in this case, is propped up by Western governments, particularly the USA, and by isolating Israel in the west we might actually stand a chance of doing something about them

If that answers your question, please stop repeating it like a broken record.


Basically the same can be said for numerous African states.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2014, 05:43:50 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 12:46:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 06:34:45 AM
I could have sworn the "what about all the non-Arab-Israeli conflicts and why aren't yiz kicking up a stink about them" question had been answered, but let me try to answer the whatabouters in the hope that they'll stop repeating the same damn question and a million variations thereon:


  • Because on an emotional level, Irish people feel a strong sense of empathy with the Palestinians because of the similarity of their situation to Ireland's historical situation
  • Because Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein's Iraq ever was and has been getting away with it for a whole lot longer
  • Because Israel is a terrorist apartheid state that has managed, through the most efficient propaganda system I have ever seen, to convince large swathes of the western public that it is a civilized, modern, democratic state that is only acting in self defence against unprovoked attacks
  • Because Israel has managed to wipe from the western consciousness the existence of about a million Palestinians living in refugee camps since the ethnic cleansing job of 1967
  • Because Israel has managed to repeat the mantra over and over again that it has a "right to exist" (which is code for justifying the ethnic cleansing on which the state is built) and has a "right to defend itself" (which is code for slaughtering scores of innocent Palestinians as collective punishment for the actions of a small group of militants).
  • Because Israel, the aggressor in this case, is propped up by Western governments, particularly the USA, and by isolating Israel in the west we might actually stand a chance of doing something about them

If that answers your question, please stop repeating it like a broken record.


Basically the same can be said for numerous African states.

Which ones?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 07:17:59 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 12:46:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 06:34:45 AM
I could have sworn the "what about all the non-Arab-Israeli conflicts and why aren't yiz kicking up a stink about them" question had been answered, but let me try to answer the whatabouters in the hope that they'll stop repeating the same damn question and a million variations thereon:


  • Because on an emotional level, Irish people feel a strong sense of empathy with the Palestinians because of the similarity of their situation to Ireland's historical situation
  • Because Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein's Iraq ever was and has been getting away with it for a whole lot longer
  • Because Israel is a terrorist apartheid state that has managed, through the most efficient propaganda system I have ever seen, to convince large swathes of the western public that it is a civilized, modern, democratic state that is only acting in self defence against unprovoked attacks
  • Because Israel has managed to wipe from the western consciousness the existence of about a million Palestinians living in refugee camps since the ethnic cleansing job of 1967
  • Because Israel has managed to repeat the mantra over and over again that it has a "right to exist" (which is code for justifying the ethnic cleansing on which the state is built) and has a "right to defend itself" (which is code for slaughtering scores of innocent Palestinians as collective punishment for the actions of a small group of militants).
  • Because Israel, the aggressor in this case, is propped up by Western governments, particularly the USA, and by isolating Israel in the west we might actually stand a chance of doing something about them

If that answers your question, please stop repeating it like a broken record.


Basically the same can be said for numerous African states.
Zionism is common or garden colonialism.
Irish people don't particularly like to see people shafted because they are the wrong religion or colour.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on August 19, 2014, 01:51:20 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 12:46:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 06:34:45 AM
I could have sworn the "what about all the non-Arab-Israeli conflicts and why aren't yiz kicking up a stink about them" question had been answered, but let me try to answer the whatabouters in the hope that they'll stop repeating the same damn question and a million variations thereon:


  • Because on an emotional level, Irish people feel a strong sense of empathy with the Palestinians because of the similarity of their situation to Ireland's historical situation
  • Because Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein's Iraq ever was and has been getting away with it for a whole lot longer
  • Because Israel is a terrorist apartheid state that has managed, through the most efficient propaganda system I have ever seen, to convince large swathes of the western public that it is a civilized, modern, democratic state that is only acting in self defence against unprovoked attacks
  • Because Israel has managed to wipe from the western consciousness the existence of about a million Palestinians living in refugee camps since the ethnic cleansing job of 1967
  • Because Israel has managed to repeat the mantra over and over again that it has a "right to exist" (which is code for justifying the ethnic cleansing on which the state is built) and has a "right to defend itself" (which is code for slaughtering scores of innocent Palestinians as collective punishment for the actions of a small group of militants).
  • Because Israel, the aggressor in this case, is propped up by Western governments, particularly the USA, and by isolating Israel in the west we might actually stand a chance of doing something about them

If that answers your question, please stop repeating it like a broken record.


Basically the same can be said for numerous African states.

Bollocks.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on August 19, 2014, 01:55:16 PM
Rossiewanderer. I gave seafood and dixie plenty of stick on this forum but Jesus Christ you write some shite on here. If you cannot even accept what eamon wrote then you should consider reapplying to national school.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 03:18:29 PM
The ceasefire is over, the talks have collapsed in Cairo,  and Israel have started bombing Gaza again.

20 airstrikes in the past 15 minutes.

Rocket fire has also resumed.

Doesn't look good at this stage
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:39:35 PM
The ongoing crisis in Israel- 200 right wing Jewish extremists turn up at the wedding of a Palestinian to an Israeli Jew
In Israel, the law forbids marriage between people of different religions.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bk1uv-LglQ
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 03:57:42 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.


Israel claimed that 3 rockets were fired. That has been denied by the various resistence groups.

Hitting Gaza with 20 airstrikes in a matter of a few minutes was a well planned attack, and not in response
to so called rocket fire. They don't want peace talks to succeed. They don't want to budge an inch. We have seen
enough of their behaviour in the past weeks to tell us that much.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.

What a stupid statement.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: bcarrier on August 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
I thought this was sad http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28812983

An apology for a humanitarian appeal?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 04:22:24 PM
Quote from: bcarrier on August 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
I thought this was sad http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28812983

An apology for a humanitarian appeal?

They also banned an add that named the dead children in Gaza

http://www.worldbulletin.net/haber/141278/israel-bans-advert-of-killed-gaza-childrens-names
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on August 19, 2014, 05:01:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.

What a stupid statement.

I'm sorry GHD, I'm a supporter of the Palestinians but that's what it seems like to me also.  It's been acknowledged countless times that these rockets are totally useless militarily so where is the sense in firing them in the certain knowledge that the only consequence is going to be murder of your own people?  They may as well fire the f**king things straight up in the air and land them on themselves.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 05:16:21 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.
Because a longer ceasefire means they go back to the siege.

" It puts the lotion on the skin. Or else it gets the hose again "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bek6nQGw520

Gaza isn't doing that any more. It's ultra rational.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 12:46:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2014, 06:34:45 AM
I could have sworn the "what about all the non-Arab-Israeli conflicts and why aren't yiz kicking up a stink about them" question had been answered, but let me try to answer the whatabouters in the hope that they'll stop repeating the same damn question and a million variations thereon:


  • Because on an emotional level, Irish people feel a strong sense of empathy with the Palestinians because of the similarity of their situation to Ireland's historical situation
  • Because Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein's Iraq ever was and has been getting away with it for a whole lot longer
  • Because Israel is a terrorist apartheid state that has managed, through the most efficient propaganda system I have ever seen, to convince large swathes of the western public that it is a civilized, modern, democratic state that is only acting in self defence against unprovoked attacks
  • Because Israel has managed to wipe from the western consciousness the existence of about a million Palestinians living in refugee camps since the ethnic cleansing job of 1967
  • Because Israel has managed to repeat the mantra over and over again that it has a "right to exist" (which is code for justifying the ethnic cleansing on which the state is built) and has a "right to defend itself" (which is code for slaughtering scores of innocent Palestinians as collective punishment for the actions of a small group of militants).
  • Because Israel, the aggressor in this case, is propped up by Western governments, particularly the USA, and by isolating Israel in the west we might actually stand a chance of doing something about them

If that answers your question, please stop repeating it like a broken record.


Basically the same can be said for numerous African states.

Firstly Eamon I do not agree with all of your bullet points(sincere apologies to itchy)

However it is true Israel is backed up by the USA and 1967 did amount to territorial annexations,I do not accept that Israel is a terrorist apartheid state.The small group of militants is also a falsehood,Hamas have the support of the people they represent.I respect what your saying but it is clouded somewhat by a deep Hatred of Israel.

DRC Militant factions financed by US Belgium among others to plunder the rich resources and create a perennially war torn state which serves the purpose of the West.
Rwanda The French role in the lead up to the 'Big' genocide, They armed the Hutu militia.
Liberia-US
Ageria-France
Burundi-Germany etc etc
An Unstable mineral rich Africa suits western ends.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 05:17:05 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.

What a stupid statement.

So stupid that you can't make a coherent rebuttal?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.
Israel kills them. Gaza wants to change the status quo. Israel thinks it can terrorise Gaza into dumping Hamas. It's like chess.
The Norwegians will pay for whatever Israel destroys. Other than Israeli society.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 05:24:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.
Israel kills them. Gaza wants to change the status quo. Israel thinks it can terrorise Gaza into dumping Hamas. It's like chess.
The Norwegians will pay for whatever Israel destroys. Other than Israeli society.   

You left out the rockets though.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.
Israel kills them. Gaza wants to change the status quo. Israel thinks it can terrorise Gaza into dumping Hamas. It's like chess.
The Norwegians will pay for whatever Israel destroys. Other than Israeli society.   
Hamas are reckless chess players.
I wonder have Hamas a specific number of civilian deaths targeted.They still refuse to evacuate children from Gaza city to the sparse southern end of Gaza.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 07:06:36 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.
Israel kills them. Gaza wants to change the status quo. Israel thinks it can terrorise Gaza into dumping Hamas. It's like chess.
The Norwegians will pay for whatever Israel destroys. Other than Israeli society.   
Hamas are reckless chess players.
I wonder have Hamas a specific number of civilian deaths targeted.They still refuse to evacuate children from Gaza city to the sparse southern end of Gaza.
Israel wants to kill kids. It is trying to terrorise gaza to surrender. And it's operating way beyond international law. The people of Gaza are not going back to the siege. Israel is ultimately responsible for Gaza as occupier. It is not Gaza's fault that Israel is run by sadists .
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on August 19, 2014, 07:16:57 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.
Israel kills them. Gaza wants to change the status quo. Israel thinks it can terrorise Gaza into dumping Hamas. It's like chess.
The Norwegians will pay for whatever Israel destroys. Other than Israeli society.   
Hamas are reckless chess players.
I wonder have Hamas a specific number of civilian deaths targeted.They still refuse to evacuate children from Gaza city to the sparse southern end of Gaza.

So if they move all the women and children to one little spot it only takes one raid on that area to wipe them all out? oopsy, fired rocket by mistake...

That doesn't sound like a sensible thing to do. Staying where they are gives them some sort of protection albeit a poor one.

or if they move then it would be open season on the rest of gaza as it's now a legitimate target for "war"
basically that would be just carpet bombing the place...
Once the current occupants are gone then others can move in.

the Palestinians should stop firing though, it's not helping.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 07:29:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 07:06:36 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.
Israel kills them. Gaza wants to change the status quo. Israel thinks it can terrorise Gaza into dumping Hamas. It's like chess.
The Norwegians will pay for whatever Israel destroys. Other than Israeli society.   
Hamas are reckless chess players.
I wonder have Hamas a specific number of civilian deaths targeted.They still refuse to evacuate children from Gaza city to the sparse southern end of Gaza.
Israel wants to kill kids. It is trying to terrorise gaza to surrender. And it's operating way beyond international law. The people of Gaza are not going back to the siege. Israel is ultimately responsible for Gaza as occupier. It is not Gaza's fault that Israel is run by sadists .

Why cant Hamas evacuate kids from Gaza City to the south of Gaza and take some measures to try to safeguard innocent children in a war zone?
Storing rockets in schools is not helping the plight of the innocent children, is it Seafoid?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 08:09:18 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 07:29:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 07:06:36 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 19, 2014, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
what happened first? Rocket fire or Israeli shelling?
Probably the rockets. Gaza is not going to go back to the siege. The people are sick of it and they want their rights.
Israel thinks it can terrorise them into going back to the status quo. 

Looks like Norway is going to pony up for the reconstruction whenever Israel comes to its senses.

Not being smart, but WHY do they do that? They have a ceasefire, their people can catch their breath. They know that Israel will react like a crazed lunatic, so why do they do it? It's madness.

They are throwing their own people to the lions in the hope that the world will see how bad the lions are.
Israel kills them. Gaza wants to change the status quo. Israel thinks it can terrorise Gaza into dumping Hamas. It's like chess.
The Norwegians will pay for whatever Israel destroys. Other than Israeli society.   
Hamas are reckless chess players.
I wonder have Hamas a specific number of civilian deaths targeted.They still refuse to evacuate children from Gaza city to the sparse southern end of Gaza.
Israel wants to kill kids. It is trying to terrorise gaza to surrender. And it's operating way beyond international law. The people of Gaza are not going back to the siege. Israel is ultimately responsible for Gaza as occupier. It is not Gaza's fault that Israel is run by sadists .

Why cant Hamas evacuate kids from Gaza City to the south of Gaza and take some measures to try to safeguard innocent children in a war zone?
Storing rockets in schools is not helping the plight of the innocent children, is it Seafoid?
Who kills the kids?
Israel tells Gazans to evacuate their homes and go to UN schools and it bombs the UN schools."take some measures to try to safeguard innocent children"
There is no safe place in Gaza.
Because As far as Jewish Israelis are concerned Gazans are vermin.

Well done Israel. Julius Streicher would be delighted to see how well the flame was passed on.

 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Rossie

Would a Jew marrying a Muslim in Israel qualify as Rassenschande or is there another reason why it is banned ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:21:56 PM
So, Israel go back to doing what it does best: Killing children.

In the past 30 minutes they struck the Al Dalou family home, completly destroying it. 2 siblings, one aged 5, the other 1
were killed instantly, and up to 40 more injured. they are still trying to clear the rubble to find more.

In another attack, they hit an ambulance, injuring 2 medics.

Over 250,000 Palestinians are staying in UN shelters and many more displaced and staying with family members.

Gaza has been bombed back to the stone age, and that still isn't enough for the blood thirsty Israelis.

While people will still repeat the Israeli hasbara, "Hamas fired rockets" to justify the Israeli slaughter, they forget that
it is Israel who started all of this, and the Palestinian resistance groups have every right to self defence. Who else is defending them? Is the EU or the USA standing up? No. Not even Ireland could be bothered to vote in favour of
investigating Israeli war crimes in Gaza.

Saying Hamas brought the deaths upon the Palestinians by firing rockets is no different to saying a woman deserved to be raped because she wore a short skirt and a low cut top.

Israel broke the cease fire in 2008 that led to Operation Cast Lead where 1,400 Palestinians were killed in 3 weeks.

They also broke the ceasefire that led to Operation Pillar of Cloud in 2012 which led to 182 Palestinians been killed

And following that ceasefire, Israel broke it over 250 times before lauching Operation Protective Edge.

And how can we forget the decades long illegal occupation.

But hey, its all the fault of Hamas because the main steam media repeated the Israel lie that it was they who started it.

PS for anyone thats interested, here are a list of ceasefire violations by Israel during the past ceasefire

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/watchisrael-overview-of-israeli-ceasefire-violations-since-aug-12-2014/

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 09:30:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:21:56 PM
So, Israel go back to doing what it does best: Killing children.

In the past 30 minutes they struck the Al Dalou family home, completly destroying it. 2 siblings, one aged 5, the other 1
were killed instantly, and up to 40 more injured. they are still trying to clear the rubble to find more.

In another attack, they hit an ambulance, injuring 2 medics.

Over 250,000 Palestinians are staying in UN shelters and many more displaced and staying with family members.

Gaza has been bombed back to the stone age, and that still isn't enough for the blood thirsty Israelis.

While people will still repeat the Israeli hasbara, "Hamas fired rockets" to justify the Israeli slaughter, they forget that
it is Israel who started all of this, and the Palestinian resistance groups have every right to self defence. Who else is defending them? Is the EU or the USA standing up? No. Not even Ireland could be bothered to vote in favour of
investigating Israeli war crimes in Gaza.

Saying Hamas brought the deaths upon the Palestinians by firing rockets is no different to saying a woman deserved to be raped because she wore a short skirt and a low cut top.

Israel broke the cease fire in 2008 that led to Operation Cast Lead where 1,400 Palestinians were killed in 3 weeks.

They also broke the ceasefire that led to Operation Pillar of Cloud in 2012 which led to 182 Palestinians been killed

And following that ceasefire, Israel broke it over 250 times before lauching Operation Protective Edge.

And how can we forget the decades long illegal occupation.

But hey, its all the fault of Hamas because the main steam media repeated the Israel lie that it was they who started it.

They fire rockets.

And you compare that to wearing a short skirt?

You have completely lost touch with reality.

The Israeli leadership are a bunch of animals. But they are completely predictable animals. If I fire a halloween firecracker in their direction, they will blow up my estate and everyone in it. They are murdering scum. But what am I then for launching the firecracker?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:33:22 PM
An idiot. But your not allowed say that apparently.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:36:41 PM
So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:38:01 PM
Do you think this is a meaningful defence? It's like poking a wasps nest with a stick, just to prove that wasps are bastards that sting you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:36:41 PM
So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:46:24 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:38:01 PM
Do you think this is a meaningful defence? It's like poking a wasps nest with a stick, just to prove that wasps are b**tards that sting you.

What do you expect them to do after nearly 70 years of genocide and ethnic cleansing? Look at what 20 years of a corrupt PA
negotiating with Israel brought them? Look at what the last year of so called peace talks brought them? Over 70 Palestinians
killed in that time without hardly a rocket fired by Hamas? Years and years of a brutal siege, and what did the outside world do for them? Feck all. Right now the Palestinians would rather die standing on their feet in a quick death, than to spend the rest of their lives on their knees.

As the Palestinians say in Gaza, if any of the settlers living on stolen land don't like the rockets, they can go back to wherever they came from.

As I have said before, the Palestinians have every right to defend themselves. After all, it is their land that is been occupied and stolen. It is been done with the full support of the west. They have no other options.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:47:55 PM
Then they will be obliterated.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:52:52 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:47:55 PM
Then they will be obliterated.

For daring to stand up for what is rightfully theirs?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:54:43 PM
If their only tactic is to keep launching rockets at those psychopaths, then yes. Israel hasn't exactly shown itself to behave rationally.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 10:02:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:54:43 PM
If their only tactic is to keep launching rockets at those psychopaths, then yes. Israel hasn't exactly shown itself to behave rationally.

If you would have read my previous posts, you will see how they have tried all possible avenues. They gave peace talks a chance, and what happened? they got more occupation and oppression. They tried democracy and got a brutal siege. They tried ceasefires, and what did that bring them?

Israel want every square inch of Palestinian soil. They say God gave it to them and they are back to reclaim it. That is what Palestinians have been dealing with for decades.

If all they have left to fight with is rockets, then so be it. To exist in Palestine is to resist. To resist is to exist.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
So you think that all that they can or should do is fire rockets? If that is the case, this is already over. The international community has blood on their hands too.

And by they way I did read your posts. I read all your posts except the ones which just are links to articles.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 10:10:11 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 10:02:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:54:43 PM
If their only tactic is to keep launching rockets at those psychopaths, then yes. Israel hasn't exactly shown itself to behave rationally.

If you would have read my previous posts, you will see how they have tried all possible avenues. They gave peace talks a chance, and what happened? they got more occupation and oppression. They tried democracy and got a brutal siege. They tried ceasefires, and what did that bring them?

Israel want every square inch of Palestinian soil. They say God gave it to them and they are back to reclaim it. That is what Palestinians have been dealing with for decades.

If all they have left to fight with is rockets, then so be it. To exist in Palestine is to resist. To resist is to exist.

We had a version of this in Ireland too, with a despicable neighbour fond of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Thankfully Hamas weren't in charge.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 10:12:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
So you think that all that they can or should do is fire rockets? If that is the case, this is already over. The international community has blood on their hands too.

And by they way I did read your posts. I read all your posts except the ones which just are links to articles.

I said previously that they have tried everything. Talks, ceasefires, you name it, they tried it. What did they get in response?

More and more deaths. A brutal siege, and more and more of their land stolen

Well the links provide a lot of evidence of the violations of the ceasefire by Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 10:17:17 PM
Israel are 100% wrong in this. If you're looking for me to argue against that, you have the wrong man. I support the people of Gaza in this situation. I do support Israels right to exist, but not their policy of illegal settlements and mass murder.

My issue with what Hamas are doing is it seems futile, self defeating and a death sentence for even more innocents. Tactically is seems, from the safety of tipperary at least, to make no sense.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 09:47:55 PM
Then they will be obliterated.
They won't be obliterated, AZ. It's not the 15th century. Maybe it is up in Ballingarry but not on the plains. 
Israel has a nice fat juicy economy to think about. They need to export their way in the world. They have to keep the butchery within reasonable limits.

It looks like they started a war they have no idea how to stop.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 10:24:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 10:12:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
So you think that all that they can or should do is fire rockets? If that is the case, this is already over. The international community has blood on their hands too.

And by they way I did read your posts. I read all your posts except the ones which just are links to articles.

I said previously that they have tried everything. Talks, ceasefires, you name it, they tried it. What did they get in response?

More and more deaths. A brutal siege, and more and more of their land stolen

Well the links provide a lot of evidence of the violations of the ceasefire by Israel.

Look at Hamas firing the rockets.

Pros:
They have a right to defend themselves (not a great one in my book)

Cons:
Israel bombs them with really big bombs in retaliation
Israel invades from time to time to 'search for the rockets'
Israel blames the rockets for the siege and crushes their economy
Israel points to the Palestinian authority as a terrorist organisation for firing the rockets
For some people it actually justifies Israel's brutality and thus is a PR disaster for the Palestinians
Israel blames Iran, Syria and Jihadist groups for supplying the rockets which makes it difficult for Western Governments to be sympathetic
Thousands of their people die

I am sure I missed some so feel free to add.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 10:25:21 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:36:41 PM
So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?
Strategically it's about putting pressure on Israel to lift the siege. The war costs Israel and a long one will send the economy into recession.
Throw in diplomatic losses and Gaza has nothing to lose. Whatever will be destroyed by Israel will be rebuilt by donors. It's quite a nifty plan.
Israel lashes out autistically as it always does and piles on the cruelty but it's a media war now and the Israelis are losing that angle.
I can't see Gaza going back to the siege. Can you ?
   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 10:27:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 10:25:21 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:36:41 PM
So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?
Strategically it's about putting pressure on Israel to lift the siege. The war costs Israel and a long one will send the economy into recession.
Throw in diplomatic losses and Gaza has nothing to lose. Whatever will be destroyed by Israel will be rebuilt by donors. It's quite a nifty plan.
Israel lashes out autistically as it always does and piles on the cruelty but it's a media war now and the Israelis are losing that angle.
I can't see Gaza going back to the siege. Can you ?


Except lives. Hard to get them back. I don't call that nifty.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 10:28:34 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 10:25:21 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:36:41 PM
So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?
Strategically it's about putting pressure on Israel to lift the siege. The war costs Israel and a long one will send the economy into recession.
Throw in diplomatic losses and Gaza has nothing to lose. Whatever will be destroyed by Israel will be rebuilt by donors. It's quite a nifty plan.
Israel lashes out autistically as it always does and piles on the cruelty but it's a media war now and the Israelis are losing that angle.
I can't see Gaza going back to the siege. Can you ?

So the plan is: Fire the rockets, so that Israel will slaughter thousands of us? Then what will Israel do?

You mentioned earlier that this is a game of chess.

This is what I guess you were referring to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice_(chess) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice_(chess))

But chess is played with chess pieces.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 10:29:33 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 10:24:44 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 10:12:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
So you think that all that they can or should do is fire rockets? If that is the case, this is already over. The international community has blood on their hands too.

And by they way I did read your posts. I read all your posts except the ones which just are links to articles.

I said previously that they have tried everything. Talks, ceasefires, you name it, they tried it. What did they get in response?

More and more deaths. A brutal siege, and more and more of their land stolen

Well the links provide a lot of evidence of the violations of the ceasefire by Israel.

Look at Hamas firing the rockets.

Pros:
They have a right to defend themselves (not a great one in my book)

Cons:
Israel bombs them with really big bombs in retaliation   No change
Israel invades from time to time to 'search for the rockets'  No change
Israel blames the rockets for the siege and crushes their economy That is the Israeli system, rockets or no rockets
Israel points to the Palestinian authority as a terrorist organisation for firing the rockets That is PR bullshit
For some people it actually justifies Israel's brutality and thus is a PR disaster for the Palestinians Not amongst younger US Jews
Israel blames Iran, Syria and Jihadist groups for supplying the rockets which makes it difficult for Western Governments to be sympathetic Lobby money keeps them quiet.
Thousands of their people die Israel kills them

I am sure I missed some



If you thought Israel was going to offer Gaza something better than a siege you might be on to something. But it isn't.

Gaza rubs the lotion on its skin. Or else it gets the siege again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQb2m6VJ-eo
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 10:31:46 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2014, 10:27:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 10:25:21 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 19, 2014, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:36:41 PM
So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?
Strategically it's about putting pressure on Israel to lift the siege. The war costs Israel and a long one will send the economy into recession.
Throw in diplomatic losses and Gaza has nothing to lose. Whatever will be destroyed by Israel will be rebuilt by donors. It's quite a nifty plan.
Israel lashes out autistically as it always does and piles on the cruelty but it's a media war now and the Israelis are losing that angle.
I can't see Gaza going back to the siege. Can you ?


Except lives. Hard to get them back. I don't call that nifty.
Israel would kill people anyway AZ. It's not like they are ever going to play fair with Gaza.
Israel's Final Solution for Gaza is deportation.
Would you prefer an ongoing  siege with say 300 killed a year ending in ethnic cleansing or an end to the siege with say 3000 dead?

It's a big decision in a town called Gaza

 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 19, 2014, 10:31:54 PM
How many deaths in Gaza will it take for the "nifty" plan to work ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 10:45:37 PM
 Well if Seafoid is right, then so is AZ.

There is absolutely no hope for the people of Gaza.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on August 20, 2014, 08:05:03 AM
From reports I heard last night, Hamas denied that they had fired these rocket – was story that subsequently changed? At this stage, do Hamas have any other option other than continue firing rockets?

The alternative will basically leave them in the same situation as they were before the war i.e. blockaded by the Egypt / Israel and more or less shut off from the outside world. Such a move would presumably be disastrous to Palestinian moral i.e. the entire thing would have been pointless and their end position is worse than when they started.

As such, it looks like the only option for Hamas & Palestine is to continue to force the issue until the blockade is lifted. This (firing rockets) is clearly a provocation of Israel but anyone who says that Hamas are more responsible for the Palestinian deaths than those who fire the bombs into Palestine is deluded.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 08:46:24 AM
Israel always frames the conflict as rational Jews versus irrational Orientals.
But the siege is completely irrational. Israel can't force the Gazans back to it. And it can't back down either.
The adults need to take over.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 20, 2014, 08:05:03 AM
From reports I heard last night, Hamas denied that they had fired these rocket – was story that subsequently changed? At this stage, do Hamas have any other option other than continue firing rockets?

The alternative will basically leave them in the same situation as they were before the war i.e. blockaded by the Egypt / Israel and more or less shut off from the outside world. Such a move would presumably be disastrous to Palestinian moral i.e. the entire thing would have been pointless and their end position is worse than when they started.

As such, it looks like the only option for Hamas & Palestine is to continue to force the issue until the blockade is lifted. This (firing rockets) is clearly a provocation of Israel but anyone who says that Hamas are more responsible for the Palestinian deaths than those who fire the bombs into Palestine is deluded.

I don't think anyone is saying that to be fair. Israel is obviously responsible for any deaths as a result of its shelling and ground troop activity.

What I'm saying is that, tactically, the Hamas actions seem to be a very high price for a very high gamble that Israel, or the International Community, will somehow get tired of blowing Gaza to shit. It's high stakes, and at the moment it looks like Israel is set on its course. Someone else will have to turn them around, and a few rockets fired into Israel is not going to do that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 08:46:24 AM
Israel always frames the conflict as rational Jews versus irrational Orientals.
But the siege is completely irrational. Israel can't force the Gazans back to it. And it can't back down either.
The adults need to take over.

If by the adults, you mean the International Community, i.e. the UN/USA/Russia etc, then that's what I've been saying all along. But that will lead to a two state solution, which I think is the only feasible one. You've consistently said the two state solution is not a runner, so what do you think the adults will do?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 10:02:31 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 08:46:24 AM
Israel always frames the conflict as rational Jews versus irrational Orientals.
But the siege is completely irrational. Israel can't force the Gazans back to it. And it can't back down either.
The adults need to take over.

If by the adults, you mean the International Community, i.e. the UN/USA/Russia etc, then that's what I've been saying all along. But that will lead to a two state solution, which I think is the only feasible one. You've consistently said the two state solution is not a runner, so what do you think the adults will do?
Israel has to be brought to heel. Sanctions would be the least painful.

It has been destroying the possibility of 2 states since 1967. That is why there are 750000 settlers on the west bank.
Who says 2 states is the only feasible solution? Israel already runs one state where only jews have full citizenship. So sanctions until the palestinians get their rights.

What is more likely is the status quo until something awful happens.
Israel is a liability.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:07:27 AM
I said I think it is the only feasible solution. I'm still waiting to hear a viable alternative in my view. Israel, penned back behind the 1967 borders, and Palestine regaining the territories occupied since then; with both sides forced by an international peacekeeping force to respect these boundaries seems to be the most likely solution for a meaningful peace.

What's the alternative? And don't make pithy comments about Israel being a liability, or destroying itself, or whatever. What is Seafoid's vision of a peaceful Israel/Palestine solution? Not being smart, I want to know.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: thebigfella on August 20, 2014, 10:11:02 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 19, 2014, 09:21:56 PM
So, Israel go back to doing what it does best: Killing children.

In the past 30 minutes they struck the Al Dalou family home, completly destroying it. 2 siblings, one aged 5, the other 1
were killed instantly, and up to 40 more injured. they are still trying to clear the rubble to find more.

In another attack, they hit an ambulance, injuring 2 medics.

Over 250,000 Palestinians are staying in UN shelters and many more displaced and staying with family members.

Gaza has been bombed back to the stone age, and that still isn't enough for the blood thirsty Israelis.

While people will still repeat the Israeli hasbara, "Hamas fired rockets" to justify the Israeli slaughter, they forget that
it is Israel who started all of this, and the Palestinian resistance groups have every right to self defence. Who else is defending them? Is the EU or the USA standing up? No. Not even Ireland could be bothered to vote in favour of
investigating Israeli war crimes in Gaza.

Saying Hamas brought the deaths upon the Palestinians by firing rockets is no different to saying a woman deserved to be raped because she wore a short skirt and a low cut top.

Israel broke the cease fire in 2008 that led to Operation Cast Lead where 1,400 Palestinians were killed in 3 weeks.

They also broke the ceasefire that led to Operation Pillar of Cloud in 2012 which led to 182 Palestinians been killed

And following that ceasefire, Israel broke it over 250 times before lauching Operation Protective Edge.

And how can we forget the decades long illegal occupation.

But hey, its all the fault of Hamas because the main steam media repeated the Israel lie that it was they who started it.

PS for anyone thats interested, here are a list of ceasefire violations by Israel during the past ceasefire

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/watchisrael-overview-of-israeli-ceasefire-violations-since-aug-12-2014/

You really are a fool and helping no one's cause. Glad people are starting to see through you; wouldn't be hard though because once you actually engage rather than posting other people's opinions, you are shown to be a complete buffoon.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 10:17:12 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 20, 2014, 08:05:03 AM
From reports I heard last night, Hamas denied that they had fired these rocket – was story that subsequently changed? At this stage, do Hamas have any other option other than continue firing rockets?

The alternative will basically leave them in the same situation as they were before the war i.e. blockaded by the Egypt / Israel and more or less shut off from the outside world. Such a move would presumably be disastrous to Palestinian moral i.e. the entire thing would have been pointless and their end position is worse than when they started.

As such, it looks like the only option for Hamas & Palestine is to continue to force the issue until the blockade is lifted. This (firing rockets) is clearly a provocation of Israel but anyone who says that Hamas are more responsible for the Palestinian deaths than those who fire the bombs into Palestine is deluded.

I don't think anyone is saying that to be fair. Israel is obviously responsible for any deaths as a result of its shelling and ground troop activity.

What I'm saying is that, tactically, the Hamas actions seem to be a very high price for a very high gamble that Israel, or the International Community, will somehow get tired of blowing Gaza to shit. It's high stakes, and at the moment it looks like Israel is set on its course. Someone else will have to turn them around, and a few rockets fired into Israel is not going to do that.
It does look nuts from a perspective that says Israel is rational/regular loss analysis

But if you look at it from the Gaza perspective

-In 2000 5% of the people were on food aid. Today it's 80% - worse than Afghanistan. In Egypt across the border the numbers are below 2 % . this is deliberate Israeli policy.

-Israel has destroyed the economy

-Israel has destroyed the sewage system and the water is undrinkable

-Israel is slowly moving Gaza to a situation where a humanitarian crisis develops because the conditions of life there become unsustainable

- Gaza is going to become an incubator of disease

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/07/uk-mideast-gaza-germany-idUKKBN0G71P320140807
"Lieberman told Thursday's mass-selling German daily Bild that Germany had a "very significant" role to play in preventing an economic and humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza",


And worldwide most Jews don't give a f**k/are too afraid to speak up 

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.610856
"The Jewish Chronicle, a British newspaper, has apologized for running an advertisement for a charity raising funds for the crisis in Gaza"

So if you were in Gaza and you knew that Israel was doing what it is doing what would you do? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 10:21:12 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:07:27 AM
I said I think it is the only feasible solution. I'm still waiting to hear a viable alternative in my view. Israel, penned back behind the 1967 borders, and Palestine regaining the territories occupied since then; with both sides forced by an international peacekeeping force to respect these boundaries seems to be the most likely solution for a meaningful peace.

What's the alternative? And don't make pithy comments about Israel being a liability, or destroying itself, or whatever. What is Seafoid's vision of a peaceful Israel/Palestine solution? Not being smart, I want to know.
The 2 SS is not going to fly because of the settlers. Who is going to move them ? 

I think the answer eventually would be some sort of federation . But something awful is probably going to happen before that happens.
Israel is not stable. The level of hatred that exists against Palestinians has been cultivated for over 40 years. 
Israeli Jews want the status quo and that's not feasible either.

Something that changes the way Israeli Jews are educated will have to be part of the solution. And the impetus to change will only come when the status quo becomes unprofitable.





Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on August 20, 2014, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:07:27 AM
I said I think it is the only feasible solution. I'm still waiting to hear a viable alternative in my view. Israel, penned back behind the 1967 borders, and Palestine regaining the territories occupied since then; with both sides forced by an international peacekeeping force to respect these boundaries seems to be the most likely solution for a meaningful peace.

What's the alternative? And don't make pithy comments about Israel being a liability, or destroying itself, or whatever. What is Seafoid's vision of a peaceful Israel/Palestine solution? Not being smart, I want to know.

Good luck with this one AZ - I've been trying for a long time now to get some sort of coherence out of this guy but all that seems to come back is links to articles and rambling posts made up of 6 word sentences.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:23:27 AM
What sort of Federation seafoid? What do you mean when you say Federation? An umbrella like the old Russian Federation? Or some sort of single federal state like the USA?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 10:30:57 AM

Dr Mads Gilbert says "this is all planned, this all man made"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9O3EcuuIuk
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:32:50 AM
I can't look at youtube links with sound, I'm in work. But about the Federation, what do you mean by that?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 10:40:00 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:23:27 AM
What sort of Federation seafoid? What do you mean when you say Federation? An umbrella like the old Russian Federation? Or some sort of single federal state like the USA?
Something cantonised  like Belgium or CH.
Local devolved power and less of a centralised government as at the present time.

Jewish and Palestinian rights to live in the space have to be respected but no apartheid.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:51:03 AM
I see what you mean, but I would have very little confidence that the Israelis would live side by side with their Palestinian neighbours, nor do I hold out much hope for some elements in Palestine not trying to exact revenge on Israelis in such a federation.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:51:03 AM
I see what you mean, but I would have very little confidence that the Israelis would live side by side with their Palestinian neighbours, nor do I hold out much hope for some elements in Palestine not trying to exact revenge on Israelis in such a federation.
They will if their incomes depend on it.

I think Israel is on a very dangerous path of extremism and that they'll take too many risks and eventually come to their senses. Sunningdale for very slow learners.
Israel is a very sad country IMO. Ireland shows that trauma goes through the generations and the Holocaust will take many decades to work its way out of the Israeli psyche. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:59:35 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:51:03 AM
I see what you mean, but I would have very little confidence that the Israelis would live side by side with their Palestinian neighbours, nor do I hold out much hope for some elements in Palestine not trying to exact revenge on Israelis in such a federation.
They will if their incomes depend on it.

I think Israel is on a very dangerous path of extremism and that they'll take too many risks and eventually come to their senses. Sunningdale for very slow learners.
Israel is a very sad country IMO. Ireland shows that trauma goes through the generations and the Holocaust will take many decades to work its way out of the Israeli psyche.

They would say their income would be much more dependent on staying as a separate, Israeli state.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 11:09:08 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:59:35 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2014, 10:51:03 AM
I see what you mean, but I would have very little confidence that the Israelis would live side by side with their Palestinian neighbours, nor do I hold out much hope for some elements in Palestine not trying to exact revenge on Israelis in such a federation.
They will if their incomes depend on it.

I think Israel is on a very dangerous path of extremism and that they'll take too many risks and eventually come to their senses. Sunningdale for very slow learners.
Israel is a very sad country IMO. Ireland shows that trauma goes through the generations and the Holocaust will take many decades to work its way out of the Israeli psyche.

They would say their income would be much more dependent on staying as a separate, Israeli state.
As long as the occupation continues they don't have to pay reparations to the Palestinians. They took a lot of free land for houses and they get free water. They sell weapons and control systems they test on Gaza and the West Bank. Sure why wouldn't they like it ? But that doesn't mean it's sustainable. 

If they want a separate Israeli state they should vote for it. But it's very hard to fight such a sophisticated system even if it is actually working against their interest.

Not unlike the celtic tiger.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 11:47:20 AM
@ AZ

The Israeli education system is a big part of the problem


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.611395

"Anti-Arab racism and anti-leftist incitement did not start this summer. Nor are they the product of an educational "error." They are what could be expected from an educational system that for decades has been subject to a single narrative and a single curriculum and flees from any effort to confront multiple points of view.
Young people shouting "Death to Arabs" prove the success of the educational system more than its failure. Such youths have internalized an aggressive worldview in which the strong side erases the "other" – be he Arab, poor or Mizrahi (a Jew of Middle Eastern origin) – just like they saw in school. Thus, in schools they recite Israel's Declaration of Independence, which promises equal rights regardless of religion, race, or gender, but ignore the inequality between Jews and Arabs; they praise "equality of opportunity" for all, but don't address the gaps between pupils from different socioeconomic backgrounds; they praise "national unity," but marginalize the history of large swaths of the population. "
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 20, 2014, 03:07:46 PM
Official: 20 killed by Israeli strikes since truce collapsed

Renewed Israeli attacks on Gaza have killed 20 Palestinians since a temporary ceasefire collapsed on Tuesday, a health ministry spokesman said Wednesday.

Ashraf al-Qidra said that Zaki Suleiman al-Rai, 54, died from wounds sustained early Wednesday.

The bodies of Mustafa Rabah al-Dalou, 14 and Wafaa Hussein al-Dalou were also recovered from the wreckage of the al-Dalou family home in Gaza City.

Earlier, a two-year-old Palestinian girl was killed in Israeli shelling on the al-Zaytoun neighborhood of Gaza City, al-Qidra said.

She was identified as Nour Muhammad Abu Hasirah.

Before that, al-Qidra said an Israeli airstrike killed an unidentified man near the al-Maqusi residential buildings in western Gaza City. The man's body was taken to Shifa hospital.

Al-Qidra added that civil defense rescue teams had recovered the bodies of a woman and a child from the rubble of the al-Dalou family home in Sheikh Radwan, which was hit by five Israeli missiles.

The wife and daughter of al-Qassam Brigades commander Muhammad Deif were killed in the attack, Hamas says, along with four-year-old Ahmad al-Dalou.

A 24-hour truce due to last until midnight collapsed late Tuesday afternoon when Israel said rockets fired from the Strip hit Beersheba. Hamas denied firing the rockets.

An Israeli army statement said that 117 rockets had been fired at Israel from Gaza since the truce collapsed.

One of them hit a home in Ashkelon without causing injuries, it said.

Earlier, the army said it had struck "some 60 terror sites" in Gaza overnight, in addition to targeting "two terrorists ... in the northern Gaza Strip."

Over 2,000 Palestinians -- the vast majority of them civilians -- have been killed throughout Israel's offensive on Gaza.

Sixty-seven people have been killed on the Israeli side, 64 of them soldiers.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=721960
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 03:23:06 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 20, 2014, 03:07:46 PM
Official: 20 killed by Israeli strikes since truce collapsed

Renewed Israeli attacks on Gaza have killed 20 Palestinians since a temporary ceasefire collapsed on Tuesday, a health ministry spokesman said Wednesday.

Ashraf al-Qidra said that Zaki Suleiman al-Rai, 54, died from wounds sustained early Wednesday.

The bodies of Mustafa Rabah al-Dalou, 14 and Wafaa Hussein al-Dalou were also recovered from the wreckage of the al-Dalou family home in Gaza City.

Earlier, a two-year-old Palestinian girl was killed in Israeli shelling on the al-Zaytoun neighborhood of Gaza City, al-Qidra said.

She was identified as Nour Muhammad Abu Hasirah.

Before that, al-Qidra said an Israeli airstrike killed an unidentified man near the al-Maqusi residential buildings in western Gaza City. The man's body was taken to Shifa hospital.

Al-Qidra added that civil defense rescue teams had recovered the bodies of a woman and a child from the rubble of the al-Dalou family home in Sheikh Radwan, which was hit by five Israeli missiles.

The wife and daughter of al-Qassam Brigades commander Muhammad Deif were killed in the attack, Hamas says, along with four-year-old Ahmad al-Dalou.

A 24-hour truce due to last until midnight collapsed late Tuesday afternoon when Israel said rockets fired from the Strip hit Beersheba. Hamas denied firing the rockets.

An Israeli army statement said that 117 rockets had been fired at Israel from Gaza since the truce collapsed.

One of them hit a home in Ashkelon without causing injuries, it said.

Earlier, the army said it had struck "some 60 terror sites" in Gaza overnight, in addition to targeting "two terrorists ... in the northern Gaza Strip."

Over 2,000 Palestinians -- the vast majority of them civilians -- have been killed throughout Israel's offensive on Gaza.

Sixty-seven people have been killed on the Israeli side, 64 of them soldiers.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=721960

And we'll kill the terrorizers
and a million of their races,
But when our people torture you,
that's a few random cases.
Don't question the sun.
It doesn't help anyone.

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Empire-lyrics-Dar-Williams/7313EE1E57E955BC48257126002D3D0C
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 20, 2014, 04:00:09 PM
So, the Occupier issues a court order on the native Occupied to move to another part of Occupied land.

Only Israel can get away with this sh1t

Israeli forces deliver 'deportation order' to PFLP lawmaker

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=721927

Israeli forces raided the house of a Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine lawmaker early Wednesday and delivered an order demanding that she leave Ramallah.

Khalida Jarrar told Ma'an that dozens of soldiers raided her house in Ramallah early Wednesday and delivered a deportation order "by an Israeli court" to Jericho for an unspecified period of time.

Jarrar added that the place of residence in Jericho was specified in the order.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: DrinkingHarp on August 22, 2014, 04:34:14 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 09:10:40 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 06:10:41 PM
Recording of teen's emergency call released. Audio of call placed by Gilad Shaar to police on night of kidnapping catches his plea, 'They kidnapped me,' followed by shouts and gunshots.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602442/1.602442

They knew all along the boys were dead, but yet Netanyahu put up a charade for 3 weeks telling the world Hamas kidnapped them and they were going to find them and bring them home. That lie led to what we see in Gaza right now.


According to Senior Hamas Officials, they did kidnap the three teens.

http://news.yahoo.com/senior-hamas-official-says-group-abducted-israeli-teens-104952838.html

And if you look at the video at the end of the report you will see people of Gaza using Caterpillar equipment to clear debris.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 06:07:37 AM
Quote from: DrinkingHarp on August 22, 2014, 04:34:14 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 09:10:40 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 01, 2014, 06:10:41 PM
Recording of teen's emergency call released. Audio of call placed by Gilad Shaar to police on night of kidnapping catches his plea, 'They kidnapped me,' followed by shouts and gunshots.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602442/1.602442

They knew all along the boys were dead, but yet Netanyahu put up a charade for 3 weeks telling the world Hamas kidnapped them and they were going to find them and bring them home. That lie led to what we see in Gaza right now.


According to Senior Hamas Officials, they did kidnap the three teens.

http://news.yahoo.com/senior-hamas-official-says-group-abducted-israeli-teens-104952838.html

And if you look at the video at the end of the report you will see people of Gaza using Caterpillar equipment to clear debris.

Most likely it was an opportunistic kidnap by a contrary family in the West Bank. It wasn't Hamas policy. And even if it was how could it justify what Israel has done since ?


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.611677

"Almost all the Gaza Strip's 1.8 million residents are suffering from a severe lack of water for drinking and washing, since Israeli bombs seriously damaged the Strip's water, electricity and sewage infrastructure.
One of the most serious consequences of the water shortage has been an outbreak of skin disease and other infections in the temporary shelters that today house some 275,000 displaced Gazans. That number is expected to rise now that the fighting has resumed.

The Palestinian Water Authority says that 11 wells and two purification plants were completely destroyed by the bombing, while 15 wells and four purification plants were partly destroyed. Twenty-nine kilometers (18 miles) of pipeline was destroyed and another 17 kilometers was damaged. Thus only about half the water system is functional, and even the functional parts get water only once every five days, according to Ewash, a coalition of international aid organizations that specialize in water and sanitation systems.
Even in normal times, more than 90 percent of Gaza's water is unfit for drinking because Israel requires the Palestinian Authority — which is responsible for the water system — to make do with the groundwater located in Gaza itself, despite the enormous growth of the Strip's population. This has led to constant overpumping, which in turn has resulted in seawater and sewage contaminating the groundwater. Therefore, people depend on the purification plants for drinking water."

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Rossie

Would a Jew marrying a Muslim in Israel qualify as Rassenschande or is there another reason why it is banned ?

Is it banned in Israeli law or just in some Jewish sects?
I did not see police arresting that couple in Tel Aviv last week.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Rossie

Would a Jew marrying a Muslim in Israel qualify as Rassenschande or is there another reason why it is banned ?

Is it banned in Israeli law or just in some Jewish sects?
I did not see police arresting that couple in Tel Aviv last week.
That is because the woman converted to Islam so she could marry the man in Israel.
If she had stayed Jewish they would have been arrested.

It is crazy.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.611928

"Israeli Jews are more opposed to intermarriage than Israeli Arabs, with fully 75 percent of Jews saying they would refuse to marry someone of a different religion, a new poll by Haaretz found."



the actual reason is that if the wife is not Jewish then the kids are not Jewish so you can't keep up a Jewish majority.
They should just change the rules on how you become Jewish and give people their civil rights back.

Imagine Jews being forbidden to marry Christians in Europe and the uproar from Mike Sheehy. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:23:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Rossie

Would a Jew marrying a Muslim in Israel qualify as Rassenschande or is there another reason why it is banned ?

Is it banned in Israeli law or just in some Jewish sects?
I did not see police arresting that couple in Tel Aviv last week.
That is because the woman converted to Islam so she could marry the man in Israel.
If she had stayed Jewish they would have been arrested.

It is crazy.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.611928

"Israeli Jews are more opposed to intermarriage than Israeli Arabs, with fully 75 percent of Jews saying they would refuse to marry someone of a different religion, a new poll by Haaretz found."



the actual reason is that if the wife is not Jewish then the kids are not Jewish so you can't keep up a Jewish majority.
They should just change the rules on how you become Jewish and give people their civil rights back.

Imagine Jews being forbidden to marry Christians in Europe and the uproar from Mike Sheehy.

Here is an article from the Jewish post and the group protesting about Jewish girls going out with Arabs are claiming that the men turn violent after marriage so it would appear to be allowed, just frowned upon.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Protecting-Jewish-girls-from-Arabs
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 10:29:07 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:23:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Rossie

Would a Jew marrying a Muslim in Israel qualify as Rassenschande or is there another reason why it is banned ?

Is it banned in Israeli law or just in some Jewish sects?
I did not see police arresting that couple in Tel Aviv last week.
That is because the woman converted to Islam so she could marry the man in Israel.
If she had stayed Jewish they would have been arrested.

It is crazy.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.611928

"Israeli Jews are more opposed to intermarriage than Israeli Arabs, with fully 75 percent of Jews saying they would refuse to marry someone of a different religion, a new poll by Haaretz found."



the actual reason is that if the wife is not Jewish then the kids are not Jewish so you can't keep up a Jewish majority.
They should just change the rules on how you become Jewish and give people their civil rights back.

Imagine Jews being forbidden to marry Christians in Europe and the uproar from Mike Sheehy.

Here is an article from the Jewish post and the group protesting about Jewish girls going out with Arabs are claiming that the men turn violent after marriage so it would appear to be allowed, just frowned upon.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Protecting-Jewish-girls-from-Arabs
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.611220

Israeli law doesn't permit marriages between people of different religions, and if Malka had not converted to Islam, the two could not have married in Israel, where marriage is subject to religious law
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 10:29:07 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:23:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Rossie

Would a Jew marrying a Muslim in Israel qualify as Rassenschande or is there another reason why it is banned ?


Is it banned in Israeli law or just in some Jewish sects?
I did not see police arresting that couple in Tel Aviv last week.
That is because the woman converted to Islam so she could marry the man in Israel.
If she had stayed Jewish they would have been arrested.

It is crazy.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.611928

"Israeli Jews are more opposed to intermarriage than Israeli Arabs, with fully 75 percent of Jews saying they would refuse to marry someone of a different religion, a new poll by Haaretz found."



the actual reason is that if the wife is not Jewish then the kids are not Jewish so you can't keep up a Jewish majority.
They should just change the rules on how you become Jewish and give people their civil rights back.

Imagine Jews being forbidden to marry Christians in Europe and the uproar from Mike Sheehy.

Here is an article from the Jewish post and the group protesting about Jewish girls going out with Arabs are claiming that the men turn violent after marriage so it would appear to be allowed, just frowned upon.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Protecting-Jewish-girls-from-Arabs
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.611220

Israeli law doesn't permit marriages between people of different religions, and if Malka had not converted to Islam, the two could not have married in Israel, where marriage is subject to religious law


Not quite Israeli law. It only states it must be a religious ceremony unless both partners are "other" and not members of the 3 main churches. Many interfaith couples have been able to get around the law by marrying abroad – Cyprus is the closest and one of the most popular destinations – and then having the union recognized by Israel's Interior Ministry. So the Israeli state itself has no issue with mixed marriage.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/shavuot/.premium-1.596576

Religious authorities recognized by Israel, including those of Muslims and of Christian denominations, also do not perform interfaith marriages, so a Jew cannot marry a Muslim or a Christian unless one member of the couple converts to the faith of his or her partner. (Islamic law technically allows for a Muslim man to marry a Christian or a Jewish woman, as long as their children are raised Muslim, but Muslim clerics and scholars frown on the practice.

In 2010 the Knesset passed a law that recognizes civil unions, but only if both partners are registered as not belonging to any religion.

The Rassenschande comment could just as easily be directed at the other religions if you are equating race and religion.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on August 22, 2014, 11:29:26 PM
So is Hamas murder of a 4 yr old Jewish child worth condemning or their execution of 11 collaborators?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on August 22, 2014, 11:29:26 PM
So is Hamas murder of a 4 yr old Jewish child worth condemning or their execution of 11 collaborators?
yes

I wonder what Israel's exit plan is.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 23, 2014, 08:28:37 AM
Hamas backs International Criminal Court bid

Hamas has signed a pledge to back any Palestinian bid to join the International Criminal Court, two senior officials in the group said Saturday. Such a step could expose Israel - as well as Hamas - to war crimes investigations.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has debated for months whether to join the court, a step that would transform his relations with Israel from tense to openly hostile and could also strain his ties with the United States.

The decision by Hamas to sign a document in support of a court bid removes a major obstacle, though it's not clear if Abbas now will go ahead. A hesitant Abbas has said he would not make any decision without the written backing of all Palestinian factions. Last month, he obtained such support from all factions in the Palestine Liberation Organization.

Hamas, which is not a PLO member, has said it would study the idea. Its decision to support the court option came after almost seven weeks of a deadly cross-border war with Israel and several failed cease-fire efforts.

Since the war erupted July 8, more than 2,090 Palestinians have been killed, including close to 500 children, and about 100,000 Gazans have been left homeless, according to United Nations figures and Palestinian officials. Israel lost 64 soldiers and four civilians, including a 4-year-old boy killed by a mortar shell Friday.

During the war, Gaza militants have fired more than 3,800 rockets and mortar shells at Israel, while Israel launched about 5,000 airstrikes at Gaza, the military said. Israel has it has targeted sites linked to militants, including rocket launchers and weapons. U.N. and Palestinian officials say three-fourths of those killed in Gaza have been civilians.

On Saturday, an airstrike on a house in central Gaza killed two women, two children and a man, according to medics at the Red Crescent. Six strikes also hit a house in the Zeitoun neighborhood of Gaza, causing severe damage but no injuries, Gaza police said.

Since the start of the Gaza war, Abbas has come under growing domestic pressure to pave the way for a possible war crimes investigation of Israel. Last month, he told senior PLO officials and leaders of smaller political groups he would only go ahead if Hamas supports the bid.

If Abbas were to turn to the court, Hamas could be investigated for indiscriminate rocket fire at Israel since 2000. Israel could come under scrutiny for its actions in the current Gaza war as well as decades of settlement building on war-won lands the Palestinians seek for a state.

Izzat Rishq, a senior Hamas official, said Saturday that Hamas was not concerned about becoming a target of a war crimes investigation.

"We are under occupation, under daily attack and our fighters are defending their people," he said in a phone interview from Qatar. "These rockets are meant to stop Israeli attacks and it is well known that Israel initiated this war and previous wars."

However, it is not clear if such arguments would hold up in court. After the last major round of Israel-Hamas fighting more than five years ago, a U.N. fact-finding team said both Israel and Hamas violated the rules of war by targeting civilians - Hamas by firing rockets at Israel.

Hamas' decision to back a court bid came after meetings on Thursday and Friday in Qatar between Abbas and the top Hamas leader in exile, Khaled Mashaal.

Moussa Abu Marzouk, a senior Hamas leader who participated in the meetings, wrote on his Facebook page early Saturday that "Hamas has signed the paper" of support Abbas had requested. Rishq said that "we studied the paper and signed it."

Abu Marzouk's post was also reported on Hamas news websites.

There was no comment from Abbas aides and no immediate reaction from Israel, which has opposed involving the court.

Turning to the International Criminal Court became an option for Abbas in 2012, after the U.N. General Assembly recognized "Palestine" in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, lands captured by Israel in 1967, as a non-member observer state. The upgrade to a state opened the door to requesting the court's jurisdiction in Palestine.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 23, 2014, 08:55:51 AM
Five members of a Palestinian family were killed in an Israeli airstrike on a home in central Gaza on Saturday morning, as Israel continued to bombard the besieged coastal enclave on the 47th day of the assault while Palestinian leaders urged international intervention.

The strikes brought the total death toll in Gaza to 2,098 with more than 10,550 injured according to Gaza medical authorities, of whom the United Nations has identified 70 percent as civilians.

The strike on Saturday morning hit the home of the Dahrouj family al-Zawayda neighborhood in the central Gaza Strip, killing a couple and their three children, medical sources said.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=722591
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 10:40:43 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 10:29:07 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:23:44 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 22, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 22, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Rossie

Would a Jew marrying a Muslim in Israel qualify as Rassenschande or is there another reason why it is banned ?


Is it banned in Israeli law or just in some Jewish sects?
I did not see police arresting that couple in Tel Aviv last week.
That is because the woman converted to Islam so she could marry the man in Israel.
If she had stayed Jewish they would have been arrested.

It is crazy.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.611928

"Israeli Jews are more opposed to intermarriage than Israeli Arabs, with fully 75 percent of Jews saying they would refuse to marry someone of a different religion, a new poll by Haaretz found."



the actual reason is that if the wife is not Jewish then the kids are not Jewish so you can't keep up a Jewish majority.
They should just change the rules on how you become Jewish and give people their civil rights back.

Imagine Jews being forbidden to marry Christians in Europe and the uproar from Mike Sheehy.

Here is an article from the Jewish post and the group protesting about Jewish girls going out with Arabs are claiming that the men turn violent after marriage so it would appear to be allowed, just frowned upon.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Protecting-Jewish-girls-from-Arabs
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.611220

Israeli law doesn't permit marriages between people of different religions, and if Malka had not converted to Islam, the two could not have married in Israel, where marriage is subject to religious law


Not quite Israeli law. It only states it must be a religious ceremony unless both partners are "other" and not members of the 3 main churches. Many interfaith couples have been able to get around the law by marrying abroad – Cyprus is the closest and one of the most popular destinations – and then having the union recognized by Israel's Interior Ministry. So the Israeli state itself has no issue with mixed marriage.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/shavuot/.premium-1.596576

Religious authorities recognized by Israel, including those of Muslims and of Christian denominations, also do not perform interfaith marriages, so a Jew cannot marry a Muslim or a Christian unless one member of the couple converts to the faith of his or her partner. (Islamic law technically allows for a Muslim man to marry a Christian or a Jewish woman, as long as their children are raised Muslim, but Muslim clerics and scholars frown on the practice.

In 2010 the Knesset passed a law that recognizes civil unions, but only if both partners are registered as not belonging to any religion.

The Rassenschande comment could just as easily be directed at the other religions if you are equating race and religion.

Zionism is the system in Israel and it's racist and ethnocentric.
75% of Jews wouldn't marry a Palestinian.
So I think Rassenschande is appropriate.

Israel is way behind other modern democracies on this issue.   
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on August 23, 2014, 10:48:01 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on August 22, 2014, 11:29:26 PM
So is Hamas murder of a 4 yr old Jewish child worth condemning or their execution of 11 collaborators?
yes

I wonder what Israel's exit plan is.

Its almost comical how seafood and Dixie ignore what Hamas does. The only reason Hamas are not committing as many atrocities as Israel is the quality of their weapons. The intent is there and that's why this poor child was murdered. We don't get any pictures or copy and paste articles from the two boys though do we? I'm not excusing Israel either, they are barbaric and a disgrace to civilised society.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on August 23, 2014, 11:33:42 AM
Quote from: Itchy on August 23, 2014, 10:48:01 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on August 22, 2014, 11:29:26 PM
So is Hamas murder of a 4 yr old Jewish child worth condemning or their execution of 11 collaborators?
yes

I wonder what Israel's exit plan is.

Its almost comical how seafood and Dixie ignore what Hamas does. The only reason Hamas are not committing as many atrocities as Israel is the quality of their weapons. The intent is there and that's why this poor child was murdered. We don't get any pictures or copy and paste articles from the two boys though do we? I'm not excusing Israel either, they are barbaric and a disgrace to civilised society.

This is obviously completely true. But equally, Israel would not behave as barbarically as they do, and might even develop proper diplomatic relations, if the Palestinians had nukes.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 23, 2014, 10:48:01 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: Itchy on August 22, 2014, 11:29:26 PM
So is Hamas murder of a 4 yr old Jewish child worth condemning or their execution of 11 collaborators?
yes

I wonder what Israel's exit plan is.

Its almost comical how seafood and Dixie ignore what Hamas does. The only reason Hamas are not committing as many atrocities as Israel is the quality of their weapons. The intent is there and that's why this poor child was murdered. We don't get any pictures or copy and paste articles from the two boys though do we? I'm not excusing Israel either, they are barbaric and a disgrace to civilised society.

The whole situation is outrageous, Itchy. It's wrong for Israeli kids to die but Israel doesn't give a flying f**k about human rights and is not interested in lifting the siege. 467 Gazan kids killed. For what ? 

I don't think anyone deserves to die in order for  Israel to run an apartheid system. 

The solution has to be rights based. And Israel has to change.
I wouldn't have Hamas in charge either. The Palestinian people deserve protection and they have to get their rights.

It's the only way to guarantee Jewish rights going forward as well.

Spin it out 10 years and Hamas could be replaced by ISIS or worse with flash weaponry that can take out the Tel Aviv airport. Israel is deluded to think might is right.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 02:04:49 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/hamas-back-palestinian-bid-international-criminal-court
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 03:51:47 PM
Where is Sheehy when you need him ?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612072
"Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel.

According to the letter, the condemnation was prompted by an advertisement written by Elie Wiesel and published in major news outlets worldwide, accusing Hamas of "child sacrifice" and comparing the group to the Nazis. "


The letter, signed by 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors, is as follows 

"Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza

"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.

"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.

"Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.

"We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!"

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 23, 2014, 06:32:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 03:51:47 PM
Where is Sheehy when you need him ?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612072
"Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel.

According to the letter, the condemnation was prompted by an advertisement written by Elie Wiesel and published in major news outlets worldwide, accusing Hamas of "child sacrifice" and comparing the group to the Nazis. "


The letter, signed by 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors, is as follows 

"Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza

"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.

"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.

"Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.

"We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!"


You could learn something from these brave people Seafoid. Despite the atrocities that they suffered at the hands of people like you they still speak up. You, on the other hand, are more interested in whipping up sectarian hatreds and acting as an apologist for Jihadis. Hating jews is not going to solve what is happening in the middle east.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on August 23, 2014, 06:39:16 PM
I see Dundalk are being fined 18k by uefa for a Palestinian flag at a game there a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Owenmoresider on August 23, 2014, 09:30:31 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 23, 2014, 06:39:16 PM
I see Dundalk are being fined 18k by uefa for a Palestinian flag at a game there a few weeks ago.
A bit much that fine but then they were stupid to be flying the flag in the first place, it had no place or relevance there.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 10:12:35 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 23, 2014, 06:32:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 23, 2014, 03:51:47 PM
Where is Sheehy when you need him ?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612072
"Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel.

According to the letter, the condemnation was prompted by an advertisement written by Elie Wiesel and published in major news outlets worldwide, accusing Hamas of "child sacrifice" and comparing the group to the Nazis. "


The letter, signed by 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors, is as follows 

"Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza

"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.

"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.

"Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.

"We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!"


You could learn something from these brave people Seafoid. Despite the atrocities that they suffered at the hands of people like you they still speak up. You, on the other hand, are more interested in whipping up sectarian hatreds and acting as an apologist for Jihadis. Hating jews is not going to solve what is happening in the middle east.
Christ. Thanks for the laughs. I still can't get over your insinuation that is because they are Jews that the Glazers want all that money. You should be ashamed of yourself.   
Who are the jihadis BTW ?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 23, 2014, 11:51:41 PM
Trolling a club about the Munich air disaster simply because their owners are Jewish is a new low, even for you.

Anti-Semitism is not the answer Seafoid. Nor is appeasing Jihadi's and their quest for virginal comforts in the afterlife.
The Palestinians deserve better than bigots like you.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 24, 2014, 06:00:08 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 23, 2014, 11:51:41 PM
Trolling a club about the Munich air disaster simply because their owners are Jewish is a new low, even for you.

Anti-Semitism is not the answer Seafoid. Nor is appeasing Jihadi's and their quest for virginal comforts in the afterlife.
The Palestinians deserve better than bigots like you.
Sorry.   I thought you were going through a lucid phase.
I apologise.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 24, 2014, 09:04:11 PM
Lots of inflammatory Anti Israeli talk here from a couple of bigoted easily led serial article producing fetishists.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 24, 2014, 10:19:00 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on August 24, 2014, 09:04:11 PM
Lots of inflammatory Anti Israeli talk here from a couple of bigoted easily led serial article producing fetishists.

There is nothing inflammatory about pointing out to people how Israel actually works.
They kill almost 500 Palestinian children and vow revenge when one Jewish child is killed. 
That is nuts.
Imagine the Unionists trying that on back in 1975.
Israel has to be saved from itself.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J OGorman on August 24, 2014, 10:35:14 PM
This thread is sad on so many levels
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 25, 2014, 11:12:00 PM
Another heavy night of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza as over 25 people were injured including 4 paramedics and a journalist after Israeli warplanes destroyed a 15-story rise building in Gaza city. Leaving over 100 families homeless. This is the 2nd rise building to be targeted in the past 2 days.

Video of attack on the Italian tower:

https://www.facebook.com/updatefromgaza/posts/688835744527263
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 06:20:52 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 25, 2014, 11:12:00 PM
Another heavy night of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza as over 25 people were injured including 4 paramedics and a journalist after Israeli warplanes destroyed a 15-story rise building in Gaza city. Leaving over 100 families homeless. This is the 2nd rise building to be targeted in the past 2 days.

Video of attack on the Italian tower:

https://www.facebook.com/updatefromgaza/posts/688835744527263
Why did Israel lick its bollocks by bombing that tower  ? Because it can

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/jul/26/liberal-zionism-after-gaza/

When Israelis and Palestinians appear fated to fight more frequently and with ever-bloodier consequences, and when peace initiatives seem to be utopian pipe-dreams doomed to fail, the liberal Zionist faces something like an existential crisis. For if there is no prospect of two states, then liberal Zionists will have to do something they resist with all their might. They will have to decide which of their political identities matters more, whether they are first a liberal or first a Zionist. And that is a choice they don't want to make.

It's a big decision in a town called Tel Aviv
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 26, 2014, 03:20:41 PM
Israel, Palestine agree on long-term Gaza truce – Hamas spokesman

A long-term truce in Gaza has been agreed with Israel ending seven weeks of fighting, according to Hamas officials. An announcement on the extended ceasefire is to be expected in Egypt.

"An agreement has been reached between the two sides and we are awaiting the announcement from Cairo to determine the zero hour for implementation," said the spokesman, Sami Abu Zuhri.

An anonymous Palestinian official also told AFP that the contacts working on the issue in Egypt's capital "agreed a permanent cease-fire, a [deal to] end the blockade and a guarantee that Gaza's demands and needs will be met."

Israel has so far declined to comment on the report.

However, a spokesman for a group called the Palestinian Popular Resistance Committees – which has been responsible for directing rockets into Israel – told Reuters that Egypt could be announcing the news within two hours.

Earlier, Hamas' deputy leader in Cairo, Moussa Abu Marzoul, told Haaretz: "The negotiations have ended and we have reached understandings that underscore the steadfast stance of the Palestinian people with the victory of the resistance."

"We are waiting for an official announcement to set the final hour and announce a cease-fire and an end to Israeli aggression."

http://rt.com/news/182888-gaza-truce-israel-agree/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 03:51:57 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 26, 2014, 03:20:41 PM
Israel, Palestine agree on long-term Gaza truce – Hamas spokesman

A long-term truce in Gaza has been agreed with Israel ending seven weeks of fighting, according to Hamas officials. An announcement on the extended ceasefire is to be expected in Egypt.

"An agreement has been reached between the two sides and we are awaiting the announcement from Cairo to determine the zero hour for implementation," said the spokesman, Sami Abu Zuhri.

An anonymous Palestinian official also told AFP that the contacts working on the issue in Egypt's capital "agreed a permanent cease-fire, a [deal to] end the blockade and a guarantee that Gaza's demands and needs will be met."

Israel has so far declined to comment on the report.

However, a spokesman for a group called the Palestinian Popular Resistance Committees – which has been responsible for directing rockets into Israel – told Reuters that Egypt could be announcing the news within two hours.

Earlier, Hamas' deputy leader in Cairo, Moussa Abu Marzoul, told Haaretz: "The negotiations have ended and we have reached understandings that underscore the steadfast stance of the Palestinian people with the victory of the resistance."

"We are waiting for an official announcement to set the final hour and announce a cease-fire and an end to Israeli aggression."

http://rt.com/news/182888-gaza-truce-israel-agree/
Did Netanyahu get Bennett to agree to it?  Will have to see it to believe it. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: glens abu on August 26, 2014, 05:56:06 PM
Looks like great news coming out of Gaza,let's hope it's true.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 26, 2014, 05:58:45 PM
Live footage of the celebrations in Gaza right now:

http://rt.com/on-air/gaza-ceasefire-gunshots-celebrate/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 26, 2014, 06:18:38 PM
(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10616159_10152693096149314_6816029989340125065_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 06:21:05 PM
Quote from: glens abu on August 26, 2014, 05:56:06 PM
Looks like great news coming out of Gaza,let's hope it's true.
I bet the Israelis will break the terms of the agreement. No point in celebrating if the siege is not lifted.
the Israelis are experts in bad faith and the harder discussions are deferred for a month.
In 2005 they promised bush that they would open the link between Gaza and the West Bank.  They promised again in 2009 and 2012 .
Never happened.

the Israeli government will probably fall if the siege is lifted.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 06:41:44 PM
This is great news and should be welcomed unequivocally by anyone who has a genuine interest in peace.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 06:46:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 06:41:44 PM
This is great news and should be welcomed unequivocally by anyone who has a genuine interest in peace.
Not if it goes back to the siege.
Israel has a history of breaking its pledges.
I bet they'll do the same again.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612566
"Only 38 percent of Israelis are satisfied with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's performance as the Gaza fighting approaches its 50th day, according to a poll for Channel 2 by market research firm Shiluv Millward Brown."

and he's going to lift the siege, is he ? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 07:00:01 PM

http://mjrosenberg.net/2014/08/26/the-hamas-victory/
"The Hamas Victory

August 26, 2014 UncategorizedGaza, Gaza ceasefire, Gaza truce, Hamas, Israel Hamas ceasefire, Netanyahu, truce   
 

After 50 days, it is pretty clear that this is not the war Netanyahu wanted.

The very fact that it continues after 50 days is itself proof of that. And so is the truce that ends the killing, a truce that mighty Israel is signing with Hamas.

The polls in Israel reflect it too. Down from 82% approval a few weeks ago, Netanyahu is now at 38%.

The reason Netanyahu's support is crashing is not public revulsion at the killing. There is hardly any of that.  It is that the killing is not working. And all Netanyahu can do is kill more. There is no strategy because Netanyahu rejects the obvious one: ending the occupation.

Israelis are waking to the realization that the very fact that Hamas is still fighting back after seven weeks means that Israel's security is an illusion.

This is an incredible victory for Hamas.

By demonstrating that it can disrupt Israeli life whenever it chooses, it shakes Israelis to the core. I mean, what is Hamas anyway? It is, according to the Israeli government, nothing but a ragtag bunch of terrorists with crappy unsophisticated weapons. It's not Iran, not even Hizbullah.
And it has stopped Israel in its tracks. Tourists are staying away. Billions are being spent. Israel's own arsenal is being depleted. The economy is hurting.
But worst of all is the growing perception that Israel cannot be secure at home unless and until Palestinians are secure too.
Israel, the safe refuge for Jews, is now the most dangerous place to be Jewish in the world, although growing anti-Semitism produced by Netanyahu's war is making the diaspora less safe for Jews too.
In the history of Israel, nothing (including the Yom Kippur War of 1973 which, despite initial losses, Israel won big) has been as disastrous for Israel as this war.
The illusion of Israeli security is gone. And that means that either Israel accepts the obvious alternative–ending the occupation–or this is Israel's future, a future that, ultimately, means no future at all.
Hamas has already accomplished what no Arab army ever did, it destroyed the illusion that Israelis can keep partying in Tel Aviv without a thought about the people being crushed a few miles away.
The party is over."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612468
"The United States cautiously welcomes the latest Israeli-Palestinian ceasefire and urges both sides to comply with the terms of the agreement,
the State Department said on Tuesday.
"We call on all parties to fully and completely comply with its terms, and hope very much that the ceasefire will prove to be durable and sustainable," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters at a daily briefing.
"We view this as an opportunity, not a certainty," Psaki said. "There is a long road ahead and we're aware of that, and we're going into this eyes wide open," she added. (Reuters)

7:04 P.M. Ministers Naftali Bennett, Avigdor Lieberman and Yitzhak Aharonovich announce their opposition to the cease-fire deal with Hamas. (Barak Ravid)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 07:07:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 06:46:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 06:41:44 PM
This is great news and should be welcomed unequivocally by anyone who has a genuine interest in peace.
Not if it goes back to the siege.
Israel has a history of breaking its pledges.
I bet they'll do the same again.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612566
"Only 38 percent of Israelis are satisfied with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's performance as the Gaza fighting approaches its 50th day, according to a poll for Channel 2 by market research firm Shiluv Millward Brown."

and he's going to lift the siege, is he ?

So , just for the record, you are against this ceasefire and you want Hamas to continue launching rockets (with the inevitable Israeli backlash) until......??
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 07:12:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 07:00:01 PM

...... although growing anti-Semitism produced by Netanyahu's war is making the diaspora less safe for Jews too.


and this is exactly why you are the only poster on Gaaboard that does not welcome this ceasefire.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 08:06:52 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 07:12:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 07:00:01 PM

...... although growing anti-Semitism produced by Netanyahu's war is making the diaspora less safe for Jews too.


and this is exactly why you are the only poster on Gaaboard that does not welcome this ceasefire.
If it leads to the end of the siege it'll be great. If it doesn't it'll be worthless.
Netanyahu really fucked up this time.

Anyone with a genuine interest in peace would surely want the siege to be lifted.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 08:10:32 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 07:07:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 06:46:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 06:41:44 PM
This is great news and should be welcomed unequivocally by anyone who has a genuine interest in peace.
Not if it goes back to the siege.
Israel has a history of breaking its pledges.
I bet they'll do the same again.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612566
"Only 38 percent of Israelis are satisfied with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's performance as the Gaza fighting approaches its 50th day, according to a poll for Channel 2 by market research firm Shiluv Millward Brown."

and he's going to lift the siege, is he ?

So , just for the record, you are against this ceasefire and you want Hamas to continue launching rockets (with the inevitable Israeli backlash) until......??
if the siege isn't lifted it will be back to rockets I bet.  Quiet is good but not if it leads back to the siege. Gaza has had enough of israeli bullshit.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
It  is obvious you dont care about peace. You just view the conflict as a vehicle to further global anti-semitism which is why this development is very, very bad for you.

You'll have to put away those yellow badges you had ready to go. The global pogrom has been delayed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
It  is obvious you dont care about peace. You just view the conflict as a vehicle to further global anti-semitism which is why this development is very, very bad for you.

You'll have to put away those yellow badges you had ready to go. The global pogrom has been delayed.
They make a desert and call it peace. And anyone who objects hates jews.
That antisemitism canard of yours is getting a bit tired.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: foxcommander on August 26, 2014, 09:34:31 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
global anti-semitism

I hate the way that phrase is used to describe anyone who doesnt agree with israel.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:40:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
It  is obvious you dont care about peace. You just view the conflict as a vehicle to further global anti-semitism which is why this development is very, very bad for you.

You'll have to put away those yellow badges you had ready to go. The global pogrom has been delayed.
They make a desert and call it peace. And anyone who objects hates jews.
That antisemitism canard of yours is getting a bit tired.

No, not everyone..but most definitely you and GHD. The evidence is overwhelming.

btw....how was Cathar country. What brought you to that part of the world for a holiday ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:40:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
It  is obvious you dont care about peace. You just view the conflict as a vehicle to further global anti-semitism which is why this development is very, very bad for you.

You'll have to put away those yellow badges you had ready to go. The global pogrom has been delayed.
They make a desert and call it peace. And anyone who objects hates jews.
That antisemitism canard of yours is getting a bit tired.

No, not everyone..but most definitely you and GHD. The evidence is overwhelming.

btw....how was Cathar country. What brought you to that part of the world for a holiday ?
I wanted to see if I could dig up some information to use against you on the internet. LOL

re anti-Semitism and your brave  campaign - I read yesterday in Der Spiegel that of 6500 SS men at Auschwitz a grand total of 49 were convicted in a court in Germany. 700 in Poland. The rest got away scot free.
One of the worst cases was Dr Lajos Schlinger . He knew this fellow r Capesius from Bayer who worked as a rep in the 1930s. He was sent to Auschwitz and who did he meet on the ramp only Capesius who was sorting out prisoners for processing.   Schlinger told him his wife was unwell. Capesius
assured him he'd take care of her. So Mrs Schlinger and their daughter went off with Capesisu who sent them straight to the gas chamber.


And according to you GHD and I are basically Capesius because we say the occupation is wrong.   You are so sad.

Germany paid massive compensation to holocaust survivors in Israel via the Israeli government,. Much of the money was siphoned off to build infrastructure in Israel. Thousands of holocaust survivors live in poverty in Israel. The lawyers involved got rich.

It's deeply depressing- those people were murdered and nobody really gave a f**k. Some Zionists even sent Jews to Auschwitz in order to get passes for a small proportion of the doomed to get out and go to Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner

Israelis don't give a f**k about Gaza. Israel doesn't give a f**k about Shoah survivors. You don't give a f**k about Jews either.




   
In other news why have Kerry regressed this year ? The Dubs only beat them by a point last year.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 10:18:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:40:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 26, 2014, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
It  is obvious you dont care about peace. You just view the conflict as a vehicle to further global anti-semitism which is why this development is very, very bad for you.

You'll have to put away those yellow badges you had ready to go. The global pogrom has been delayed.
They make a desert and call it peace. And anyone who objects hates jews.
That antisemitism canard of yours is getting a bit tired.

No, not everyone..but most definitely you and GHD. The evidence is overwhelming.

btw....how was Cathar country. What brought you to that part of the world for a holiday ?
I wanted to see if I could dig up some information to use against you on the internet. LOL

re anti-Semitism and your brave  campaign - I read yesterday in Der Spiegel that of 6500 SS men at Auschwitz a grand total of 49 were convicted in a court in Germany. 700 in Poland. The rest got away scot free.
One of the worst cases was Dr Lajos Schlinger . He knew this business partner Capesius from Bayer when he worked as a rep in the 1930s. He was sent to Auschwitz and who did he meet on the ramp only Capesius.  Schlinger told him his wife was unwell. Capesius
assured him he'd take care of her. So Mrs Schlinger and their daughter went off with Capesisu who sent them straight to the gas chamber.


And according to you GHD and I are basically Capesius. You are so sad.

Germany paid massive compensation to holocaust survivors in Israel via the Israeli government,. Much of the money was siphoned off to build infrastructure in Israel. Thousands of holocaust survivors live in poverty in Israel. The lawyers involved got rich.

It's deeply depressing- those people were murdered and nobody really gave a f**k. Some Zionists even sent Jews to Auschwitz in order to get passes for a small proportion of the doomed to get out and go to Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner

Israelis don't give a f**k about Gaza. Israel doesn't give a f**k about Shoah survivors. You don't give a f**k about Jews either.




   
In other news why have Kerry regressed this year ? The Dubs only beat them by a point last year.

tut, tut...what a rant. You are lashing out like a cornered rat.

Did you find the holy grail in Cathar country ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 27, 2014, 07:11:45 AM
Do you want to wager on Israel breaking the terms of the ceasefire?. Put your money where your mouth is.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on August 27, 2014, 07:46:30 AM
Hopefully it will be a meaningful ceasefire and lead to an improvement in life in Gaza and eventually a lasting settlement between Palestine & Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 27, 2014, 07:48:23 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612622#

"In response to Tel Aviv University's recent letter "embrac[ing] the security forces" and threatening disciplinary action against students and employees expressing "hurtful and extremist statements" in social media, the university's social science department held a conference before a packed hall this week titled, "How to think about the war."

"We have to make an effort and cleanse the area of the endless security-oriented and patriotic talk, not only because we are sick and tired of it, but because it is designed to shut down and prevent thinking. Thinking is the most urgent thing in this war, and the most lacking. Many institutions are working to block it, like the media, for example," said the Hebrew Culture Department's Prof. Ishay Rosen-Zvi, who initiated the conference.

He told Haaretz, "After the letter from the university administration, we felt that we were being silenced. In addition, the public discourse in the media was uniform and monotonous, and we felt that we were being lied to all the time."

Leading GAAboard intellectual Mike Sheehy spoke at the conference and told the academics they were all Jew haters. He was escorted out of the hall by a psychiatric team.

During Operation Protective Edge, the administration sent out a letter stating, "Tel Aviv University embraces the security forces and condemns hurtful reactions on the social networks," and "strongly condemns hurtful and extremist statements which are being disseminated these days on the social networks, and which have no place in the public discourse." The letter also warned that the administration "will operate according to the disciplinary regulations applying to students and employees, in every case of a violation."
Hundreds of students, lecturers and auditors attended the conference, which was notable since this is summer vacation, and because the event was not publicized in mainstream media, only by word of mouth and on social networks.
'Very frightening'
In his speech, Rosen-Zvi said, "I want to single out two things that seem new and very frightening to me. First, the death of soldiers no longer creates the same public pressure as in the past. It's a new mechanism and different from what we knew, when coffins created a sense of revulsion that led to criticism and media pressure. It seems that now death creates togetherness and at the same time invites more death in order to justify it.
"Second," he said, "I want to single out the normality of violence against the left. At anti-war demonstrations in which I participated there were Kahanist gangs walking around shouting 'death to Arabs and leftists,' and chasing demonstrators to beat them up, and they did beat them up. People were afraid to disperse and avoided walking home alone. Nobody was shocked and they aren't now either, the condemnations were against extremism of all types, from both right and left, as though right-wing journalists also walk around with bodyguards." This last was a reference to Haaretz columnist Gideon Levy, who hired a bodyguard after receiving numerous threats over his critical writing and interviews about the war.

Prof. Menachem Lorberbaum, chairman of the graduate school of philosophy, criticized Givati Brigade commander Col. Ofer Winter, who reportedly justified the massive civilian casualties resulting from the assault on the Rafah area following the abduction of 2nd Lt. Hadar Goldin, who was later declared dead by Israeli authorities. Lorberbaum quoted Winter saying that "whoever kidnaps has to know that he will pay a price. It was not revenge. They simply started up with the wrong brigade. ... This population is hostage, but I think that it's also a partner. ... I'm not absolving them of responsibility so quickly.Said Lorberbaum: "These are very harsh words. Is there a difference between 'revenge' and starting up with 'the wrong brigade'? Does the glory of the Givati Brigade lie in the terrible killing of all the civilians? Didn't they stop being civilians the moment the brigade commander declared that the population is a partner? And who allowed him to do that? And who exactly among them [is a partner]? The children and infants? The women?" "
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 27, 2014, 07:48:49 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 27, 2014, 07:46:30 AM
Hopefully it will be a meaningful ceasefire and lead to an improvement in life in Gaza and eventually a lasting settlement between Palestine & Israel
+1

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 28, 2014, 03:47:01 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612918

"The Palestinians plan to turn to the United Nations Security Council on September 15 to demand a deadline be set for Israel's withdrawal to 1967 borders, senior Fatah official Nabil Shaath told the Palestinian news agency Ma'an on Thursday.
If the Security Council rejects the initiative, Shaath said, the Palestinians would open their case against Israel at the International Criminal Court."


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on August 28, 2014, 10:11:29 PM
A great article by Max Blumenthal who is in Gaza and interviewed Palestinians who were used by Israel as human shields as they went on a murderous rampage

http://www.alternet.org/gaza-residents-share-monstrous-allegations-abuse-israeli-soldiers?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 28, 2014, 10:17:43 PM
The Gaza war map
http://www.kolor.com/virtual-tours/20140818-kolor-lewis-whyld/#s=pano115
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theskull1 on September 04, 2014, 09:27:48 AM
Heard this on the radio last night. Thought it a very interesting and telling discussion. There will never be peace in this area

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04fzfxz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04fzfxz)

Programme is on 'who should own Jerusalem'
In inviting a pro-Israeli rabbi and a Palestinian performance poet to agree what they disagree about, I try to make the conversation move somewhere new and interesting. But despite my entreaties the protagonists keep not only asserting the rightness of their own cause but seeking to rubbish the position of their opponent.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 31, 2014, 09:19:56 AM
Yanks veto Palestinian statehood - money comes before principles again

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/30/un-security-council-rejects-palestinian-statehood-bid

You have to laugh at Power telling the Palestinians to go back to negotiations.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/27/erekat-finally-hits-mark#

"Livni is recorded confirming what Palestinians have always accused Israeli governments of doing: creating facts on the ground to prevent the possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza."
When Mr Erekat asked Ms Livni: "Short of your jet fighters in my sky and your army on my territory, can I choose where I secure external defence?". She replied: "No. In order to create your state you have to agree in advance with Israel – you have to choose not to have the right of choice afterwards. These are the basic pillars."

"Israel takes more land [so] that the Palestinian state will be impossible . . . the Israel policy is to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that is impossible, we already have the land and we cannot create the state". She conceded that it had been "the policy of the government for a really long time".

Another choice comment from Livni, this one from a Nov. 13, 2007 meeting, where she and Abu Ala (Qurei) were discussing what should be included in the "terms of reference" for the upcoming Annapolis meeting (the eighth meeting on this question):
AA: International law?

Livni : NO. I was the Minister of Justice. I am a lawyer...But I am against law — international law in particular. Law in general. If we want to make the agreement smaller, can we just drop some of these issues? Like international law, this will make the agreements easier.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 31, 2014, 05:42:32 PM
Palestine to join International Criminal Court

Decision could clear way for filing of war crimes case but may trigger harsh Israeli response

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/palestine-to-join-international-criminal-court-1.2052077
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 31, 2014, 07:10:24 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 31, 2014, 05:42:32 PM
Palestine to join International Criminal Court

Decision could clear way for filing of war crimes case but may trigger harsh Israeli response

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/palestine-to-join-international-criminal-court-1.2052077
He finally did it. Fair play.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2015, 12:08:08 PM
This is very interesting- Fox news outrage over Israeli PM  going over the head of Obama to speak directly to Congress
Any sign of Professor Sheehy ?

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/24/7884311/netanyahu-boehner-fox-news

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/there-are-things-you-simply-dont-do

On the record, President Obama and his team have said very little about congressional Republicans partnering with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to derail international nuclear talks with Iran. Administration officials said the president will not meet with Netanyahu during his March trip, but that's only to prevent the appearance of interference with the Israeli election to be held two weeks later.



Behind the scenes, however, it seems the White House isn't pleased.


"Senior American official" as quoted by Haaretz: "We thought we've seen everything. But Bibi managed to surprise even us. There are things you simply don't do. He spat in our face publicly and that's no way to behave. Netanyahu ought to remember that President Obama has a year and a half left to his presidency, and that there will be a price."

Josh Marshall added that even American Jewish groups "who seldom allow any daylight between themselves and the Israeli government appear shocked by Netanyahu's move and are having difficulty defending it."



There are things you simply don't do.



I've been thinking about why this story strikes me as so important, and I realize that on the surface, it may not seem shocking to everyone. Republicans oppose the diplomacy with Iran; Netanyahu opposes the diplomacy with Iran. Perhaps their partnership was predictable?



Sure, House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) ignored U.S. protocol by circumventing the administration and reaching out to a foreign leader on his own, but given the degree to which Republicans have abandoned traditional norms in the Obama era, maybe this isn't that startling, either.



The problem, however, which I fear has been largely overlooked, is that it's genuinely dangerous for the federal government to try to operate this way.





I'm reminded of an incident from August, near the height of the crisis involving Central American children reaching the U.S. border, when Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) traveled to Guatemala. While there, the senator met with leading Guatemalan officials, including their president, and told them that the problem was Obama's problem, not theirs.

In other words, an American senator visited with foreign leaders on foreign soil, denounced the American president, and undermined American foreign policy. During the Bush/Cheney era, Republicans used to characterize such moves as borderline treasonous.


Five months later, the GOP en masse is working to cut off American-led international talks at the knees.
The point, of course, is that in the Obama era, Republicans have no use for the maxim about politics stopping "at the water's edge." For many GOP lawmakers, there is no American foreign policy – there's the president's foreign policy and there's a Republican foreign policy. If the latter is at odds with the former, GOP officials are comfortable taking deliberate steps to undermine the White House.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 25, 2015, 02:01:55 PM
Well we all know that you hate uppity jews Seafoid so I am not surprised that you are aligning yourself with Fox news on this one.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2015, 02:21:13 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 25, 2015, 02:01:55 PM
Well we all know that you hate uppity jews Seafoid so I am not surprised that you are aligning yourself with Fox news on this one.
I think the lobby is somewhere it doesn't like- Foxlight
Do you think going over the head of the executive is good political practice and good for American democracy ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 25, 2015, 02:48:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2015, 02:21:13 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on January 25, 2015, 02:01:55 PM
Well we all know that you hate uppity jews Seafoid so I am not surprised that you are aligning yourself with Fox news on this one.
I think the lobby is somewhere it doesn't like- Foxlight
Do you think going over the head of the executive is good political practice and good for American democracy ?

No I don't believe that going over the head of the executive is good political practice because I believe in the democratic process and this violates it.

but, sure, whats the point in trying to discuss what is good political practice with someone who is too cowardly to even state what his own political views are. All we know about you is that you hate jews and the US, elites etc...I don't think anyone on here can state with any certainty what you are actually for...
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dec on March 16, 2015, 08:08:49 PM
Netanyahu decides to be honest about his intentions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/world/middleeast/benjamin-netanyahu-campaign-settlement.html?_r=0

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel said Monday that as long as he is the leader, a Palestinian state would not be established, reversing his support for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict..."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on March 20, 2015, 03:16:14 AM
Well that's that cleared up, so.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-nbc-Tells NBC He Wants a 'Peaceful Two-State Solution' (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-nbc-u-s-has-no-greater-ally-israel-n326391)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 20, 2015, 08:14:51 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 20, 2015, 03:16:14 AM
Well that's that cleared up, so.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-nbc-Tells NBC He Wants a 'Peaceful Two-State Solution' (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-nbc-u-s-has-no-greater-ally-israel-n326391)
Plámás

Israel didn't spent $100bn on a project over 48 years to now turn around and walk away from it.
Apartheid is the only game in town.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on March 20, 2015, 09:45:28 PM
ISIS have shown Israelies what the caliphate espoused by Hamas really means. The result is no surprise in that context.

The question now really boils down to whether the Palestinians will stop supporting Jihad. Do they want a state or a caliphate ?



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on March 20, 2015, 10:01:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 20, 2015, 08:14:51 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on March 20, 2015, 03:16:14 AM
Well that's that cleared up, so.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-nbc-Tells NBC He Wants a 'Peaceful Two-State Solution' (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-nbc-u-s-has-no-greater-ally-israel-n326391)
Plámás

Israel didn't spent $100bn on a project over 48 years to now turn around and walk away from it.
Apartheid is the only game in town.

In all the time I've been on this board I have never seen anyone emphasize the "apartness" of jews and Muslim/arabs as you. Charity begins at home Seafoid.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on March 23, 2015, 11:12:31 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.648465 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.648465)

Mar. 23, 2015 | 9:53 PM
White House chief of staff: 50 years of Israeli occupation must end
U.S. cannot pretend Netanyahu didn't say no Palestinian state would be established on his watch, Denis McDonough tells J Street conference in Washington.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 24, 2015, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 23, 2015, 11:12:31 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.648465 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.648465)

Mar. 23, 2015 | 9:53 PM
White House chief of staff: 50 years of Israeli occupation must end
U.S. cannot pretend Netanyahu didn't say no Palestinian state would be established on his watch, Denis McDonough tells J Street conference in Washington.

Obama seems to be playing Netanyahu like a violin
That racist video to get the jewish vote out went down very badly in the US.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 03, 2015, 01:27:14 AM
I am surprised the heroes on here have not immediately rushed to the aid of the Palestinian refugees under "threat" from ISIS

http://rt.com/news/246045-yarmouk-isis-damascus-refugees/

Perhaps they want to control the message. No need for the hipsters to see what it is really all about..

(http://mondoweiss.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/shmu-isis-hamas-e1409750744557.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Mike Sheehy on April 09, 2015, 02:50:44 AM
//http://time.com/3800010/yarmouk-isis-damascus/

This thing is a mess. Who is to fault here I wonder ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on April 09, 2015, 08:43:34 AM
A complete mess and the people forced out of that refugee camp are only a tiny fraction of the amount of Syrians displaced - ~ 7m internally and ~ 4m external refugees. Not to mention refugees from Lybia, Egypt, etc. Hard to know where it will all end
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on April 11, 2015, 01:06:59 AM
What would a Palestine State achieve? Would it become a nation of sharia law?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 11, 2015, 09:55:10 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on April 11, 2015, 01:06:59 AM
What would a Palestine State achieve? Would it become a nation of sharia law?
Palestinians as not as good as anyone else. Why do Mongolians have passports ? Because self determination means people get to decide for themselves.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 14, 2015, 05:23:43 PM
World not delivering on Gaza reconstruction promises, new report warns


Six months since donors pledged $3.5 billion towards Gaza's recovery, many people are worse off and not a single one of the 19,000 destroyed homes has been rebuilt. 100,000 people are still homeless and many are living in makeshift camps or schools.

The report, "Charting a New Course: Overcoming the stalemate in Gaza," warns that further conflict is inevitable - and with it the cycle of destruction and donor-funded reconstruction - unless world leaders implement a new approach that addresses the underlying causes of the conflict. Donors must insist on a permanent ceasefire, accountability of all parties for ongoing violations of international law, and an end to the Israeli blockade that seals in 1.8 million Palestinians in Gaza and keeps them separated from the West Bank. Rather than challenging the blockade, the report found that most donors are accepting ways to work around it.

Winnie Byanyima, Executive Director of Oxfam, said: "The promising speeches at the donor conference have turned into empty words.There has been little rebuilding, no permanent ceasefire agreement and no plan to end the blockade.The international community is walking with eyes wide open into the next avoidable conflict, by upholding the status quo they themselves said must change."

William Bell of Christian Aid said: "We must ensure that this most recent and most devastating conflict was the last one. There must be consequences for continued violations. By facilitating a culture of impunity, the international community is committing itself to indefinitely picking up the pieces."

Only 26.8 percent of money pledged by donors six months ago has been released so far. Even when funded, many reconstruction projects have not yet begun due to restrictions on essential material under the blockade. Most of the 81 health clinics and hospitals that were damaged still lack funds for reconstruction, but the few that have funds do not have the material needed to proceed.

Tony Laurance, CEO of MAP UK, said: "The world is shutting its eyes and ears to the people of Gaza when they need it most. Reconstruction cannot happen without funds, but money alone will not be enough. With the blockade in place we are just reconstructing a life of misery, poverty and despair."

Since the temporary ceasefire, violence against civilians has continued, with more than 400 incidents of Israeli fire into Gaza and four rockets fired from Gaza into Israel. The report calls on all parties to immediately resume long-term ceasefire negotiations. It calls on Israel to end its blockade and policy of separating Gaza from the West Bank, and for Palestinian political actors to reconcile and prioritize reconstruction. It also calls on Egypt to open its border to allow humanitarian relief.

Recently, donors have managed to achieve some small increase in the flow of construction material, but not enough to meet needs and its impact is extremely limited while the blockade remains in place. The report sets out specific recommendations to the international community to break the cycle of conflict and destruction, including ways to:

Speed up reconstruction, by delivering pledges and insisting on the entry of essential material in line with international law.
   
Ensure all parties are held accountable for violations of international law, including by considering obligations under the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) on weapons known to be used indiscriminately against civilians, and seeking compensation for destroyed aid projects.
   
End the blockade and rehabilitate Gaza's shattered economy. The blockade has reduced Gaza to dependency on aid, with 80 percent of the population receiving international assistance and 63 percent of youth unemployed. Exports from Gaza are at less than two percent of pre-blockade levels with the movement of people and goods between Gaza and the West Bank practically non-existent.

Support the development of a unified Palestinian government. Palestinian leadership on reconstruction has at times been weak and uncoordinated and is further complicated due to Israeli restrictions on government officials' travel. Keeping Gaza separated from the West Bank has entrenched the already problematic split between Fatah and Hamas, with enormous negative impact on the delivery of aid and services in Gaza.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2015-04-13/world-not-delivering-gaza-reconstruction-promises-new-report
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on April 14, 2015, 09:39:41 PM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on April 11, 2015, 01:06:59 AM
What would a Palestine State achieve? Would it become a nation of sharia law?

What would an independent Irish state achieve? Would it become a nation of theocratic catholic law?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 20, 2015, 08:52:56 PM
New report documents Israel's attacks on children in Gaza

A leading international child's rights NGO has released a hard-hitting new report on "the high price paid by children" during Israel' assault on the Gaza Strip last year.

The report by Defense for Children International Palestine (DCIP), 'Operation Protective Edge: A War Waged on Children', deals with the verified deaths of 547 Palestinian children during Israel's assault, two-thirds of whom were 12 years old or younger.

DCIP says it found "overwhelming and repeated evidence that Israeli forces committed grave violations against children amounting to war crimes." This included the killing of 164 children by drone strikes.

In addition to the fatalities, more than 1,000 children "suffered injuries that rendered them permanently disabled."

The report documents numerous specific incidents, including the deaths of Rawya Joudeh, 40, and four of her five children (aged between 6 and 4), when an Israeli drone-fired missile struck as they played in the family's yard.

According to DCIP, just under half of the children who were killed in Gaza "lost their lives in aerial attacks on residential buildings."

The report states: "Missiles dropped by Israeli warplanes killed 225 children while they were in their own homes or seeking shelter, often as they sat down to eat with their families, played, or slept."

In six military offensives on the Gaza Strip since 2006, Israel has killed 1097 children, says DCIP. The NGO reiterates its call for the UN Secretary-General to "list" Israel's armed forces as part of the UN Security Council's children and armed conflict agenda.

Khaled Quzmar, general director of DCIP, commented: "The international community must demand an end to Israel's illegal blockade of Gaza and challenge systemic impunity by investigating allegations of war crimes and holding the perpetrators accountable."

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/18153-new-report-documents-israels-attacks-on-children-in-gaza
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Aestrics on April 21, 2015, 06:29:33 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on March 20, 2015, 09:45:28 PM
ISIS have shown Israelies what the caliphate espoused by Hamas really means. The result is no surprise in that context.

The question now really boils down to whether the Palestinians will stop supporting Jihad. Do they want a state or a caliphate ?

Hamas don't support having a caliphate, nor do they support sharia law or ISIS / Al Qaeda jihad.

ISIS consider Hamas to be an enemy.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 04, 2015, 10:39:44 PM
Testimonies provided by more than 60 Israeli soldiers who fought in last summer's war in Gaza have raised serious questions over whether Israel's tactics breached its obligations under international law to distinguish and protect civilians.

The claims – collected by the human rights group Breaking the Silence – are contained in dozens of interviews with Israeli combatants, as well as with soldiers who served in command centres and attack rooms, a quarter of them officers up to the rank of major.

They include allegations that Israeli ground troops were briefed to regard everything inside Gaza as a "threat" and they should "not spare ammo", and that tanks fired randomly or for revenge on buildings without knowing whether they were legitimate military targets or contained civilians

Read the full report here  http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/pdf/ProtectiveEdge.pdf

News articles on the report

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/04/israeli-soldiers-cast-doubt-on-legality-of-gaza-military-operation

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/05/04/israeli-soldiers-reveal-this-is-how-we-fought-in-gaza/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on May 05, 2015, 10:23:25 AM
Exercising their right to self-defence ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 06, 2015, 07:44:04 AM
Now that IDF soldiers themselves are confirming what we* knew at the time, I await with great interest the usual charges of "they want all Jews dead" that are usually thrown at anyone who challenges the angelic good-guy narrative that Israel tries to cultivate.

*Those of us who get our news from sources other than zionist lackeys.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 08, 2015, 10:03:31 PM
Just watched a doc on BBC about the kids affected by the recent wars in gaza, terrible stuff.

One year today since the most recent war began and seems like very little has changed for these people
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 10, 2015, 11:16:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2015, 10:03:31 PM
Just watched a doc on BBC about the kids affected by the recent wars in gaza, terrible stuff.

One year today since the most recent war began and seems like very little has changed for these people

Watched it also.... Dreadful plight.... Continuous cycle of hate and doctrine.... Will never see that change in my lifetime
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on July 18, 2015, 07:55:37 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 10, 2015, 11:16:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2015, 10:03:31 PM
Just watched a doc on BBC about the kids affected by the recent wars in gaza, terrible stuff.

One year today since the most recent war began and seems like very little has changed for these people

Watched it also.... Dreadful plight.... Continuous cycle of hate and doctrine.... Will never see that change in my lifetime

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not? 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 18, 2015, 08:37:10 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!



Was there a question in your little rant?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 18, 2015, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.

Just closing the borders is too liberal, the USA should kick out everyone who wasn't born there. Up for it?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: trileacman on July 18, 2015, 08:45:35 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 18, 2015, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.

Just closing the borders is too liberal, the USA should kick out everyone who wasn't born there. Up for it?

f**k to the rest of the world taking back a load of nutcases.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on July 18, 2015, 09:27:47 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 07:55:37 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 10, 2015, 11:16:57 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2015, 10:03:31 PM
Just watched a doc on BBC about the kids affected by the recent wars in gaza, terrible stuff.

One year today since the most recent war began and seems like very little has changed for these people

Watched it also.... Dreadful plight.... Continuous cycle of hate and doctrine.... Will never see that change in my lifetime

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

You're right, we should make those Palestinian kids pay for what that guy did
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on July 18, 2015, 09:42:16 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 18, 2015, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.

Just closing the borders is too liberal, the USA should kick out everyone who wasn't born there. Up for it?
Better if they kicked out all the people of European and African ancestry  ::)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on July 18, 2015, 09:45:22 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.

He wasn't Palestinian you blinkered imbecile.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Arthur_Friend on July 18, 2015, 09:56:14 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 18, 2015, 08:45:35 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on July 18, 2015, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.

Just closing the borders is too liberal, the USA should kick out everyone who wasn't born there. Up for it?

f**k to the rest of the world taking back a load of nutcases.

Ireland would get plenty it seems
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on July 18, 2015, 10:15:30 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 18, 2015, 09:45:22 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.

He wasn't Palestinian you blinkered imbecile.

I am not blinkered, he was born in Kuwait and lived in Jordan and Palestine, at the time of writing I was reading a report which said he was Palestinian, obviously it was wrong and so was I.

As for your comments about me, well I dont give a shite, to me you are pond scum gallbladder!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on July 18, 2015, 10:39:24 PM
I'd love to see some of these reports you speak of as he was identified very quickly as a Kuwaiti born American.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 20, 2015, 06:03:20 AM
He was Palestinian? That's the first I've heard of it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dec on July 20, 2015, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.


Should they have closed the border before they let you in?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2015, 07:02:09 AM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 10:15:30 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 18, 2015, 09:45:22 PM
Quote from: stew on July 18, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Quote from: under the bar on July 18, 2015, 08:04:40 PM
Quote

In related news a radical Palestinian Muslim kills 4 marines in Chatanooga, TN.

I am sure it is America's fault in a lot of your minds! >:(

To throw that question back to you Stew,  45 people are violently murdered in the USA every day.  Were the other 41 killed that day America's fault or not?

So a non answer then!

A f**king Palestinian Muslim killed 4 human beings in the name of Allah! How do you expect the USA to react???

And many liberal assholes over here dont want to close the borders! The mind boggles.

He wasn't Palestinian you blinkered imbecile.

I am not blinkered, he was born in Kuwait and lived in Jordan and Palestine, at the time of writing I was reading a report which said he was Palestinian, obviously it was wrong and so was I.

As for your comments about me, well I dont give a shite, to me you are pond scum gallbladder!

What borders do you close to keep out Kuwaiti, Jordanian, Palestinian jihadists?

Canada?
Mexico??
Cuba???
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on July 26, 2015, 06:55:22 PM
To answer your question I would say this, since America can do no right,no matter what they do, I think they should let absolutely no one in for the next generation! They should become isolationists, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves, that way the chinese and russians, as well as the muslim world can ruin the rest of the world, then and only then  would some of you c***ts realize the yanks actually are kind of a big deal in world politics!

Obviously I dont want this to happen but I do want the states to disallow 100% of people who might want to bring harm to her people barred forever from her shores, be they Canadian, Muslim Christian or Jew!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on July 26, 2015, 06:58:28 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 18, 2015, 10:39:24 PM
I'd love to see some of these reports you speak of as he was identified very quickly as a Kuwaiti born American.

I read a blog just after it happened and it was wrong and as a result I was absolutely wrong, 100% wrong to be precise.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on July 26, 2015, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 20, 2015, 06:03:20 AM
He was Palestinian? That's the first I've heard of it.

He wasn't, I was wrong and I apologise unreservedly!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2015, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2015, 06:55:22 PM
To answer your question I would say this, since America can do no right,no matter what they do, I think they should let absolutely no one in for the next generation! They should become isolationists, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves, that way the chinese and russians, as well as the muslim world can ruin the rest of the world, then and only then  would some of you c***ts realize the yanks actually are kind of a big deal in world politics!

Obviously I dont want this to happen but I do want the states to disallow 100% of people who might want to bring harm to her people barred forever from her shores, be they Canadian, Muslim Christian or Jew!

The US couldn't possibly even dream of that, as their economy would collapse in days.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: trileacman on July 26, 2015, 10:57:01 PM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2015, 06:55:22 PM
To answer your question I would say this, since America can do no right,no matter what they do, I think they should let absolutely no one in for the next generation! They should become isolationists, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves, that way the chinese and russians, as well as the muslim world can ruin the rest of the world, then and only then  would some of you c***ts realize the yanks actually are kind of a big deal in world politics!

Obviously I dont want this to happen but I do want the states to disallow 100% of people who might want to bring harm to her people barred forever from her shores, be they Canadian, Muslim Christian or Jew!

Would this isolationalist policy see them stop sticking their f**king noses in corners round the world where they've no f**king call, be it Palestine, Syria, Ukraine or Kenya?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on July 27, 2015, 03:36:31 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 20, 2015, 06:03:20 AM
He was Palestinian? That's the first I've heard of it.

He's right...it was initially reported that he was Palestinian....I heard it or read it myself
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 27, 2015, 06:23:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2015, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2015, 06:55:22 PM
To answer your question I would say this, since America can do no right,no matter what they do, I think they should let absolutely no one in for the next generation! They should become isolationists, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves, that way the chinese and russians, as well as the muslim world can ruin the rest of the world, then and only then  would some of you c***ts realize the yanks actually are kind of a big deal in world politics!

Obviously I dont want this to happen but I do want the states to disallow 100% of people who might want to bring harm to her people barred forever from her shores, be they Canadian, Muslim Christian or Jew!

The US couldn't possibly even dream of that, as their economy would collapse in days.

No Japanese cars, no Chinese consumer goods, no electronic devices from Taiwan (including Apple), and no middle eastern oil. I'd give the place a day and a half.

This "build a wall around the country" fantasy is the kind of BS that repukelican blowhards like to fume about when running for their presidential primaries. It appeals to the kind of low-information, intellectually-challenged voters that they've been courting for years.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: omaghjoe on July 27, 2015, 06:35:20 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 27, 2015, 06:23:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2015, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2015, 06:55:22 PM
To answer your question I would say this, since America can do no right,no matter what they do, I think they should let absolutely no one in for the next generation! They should become isolationists, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves, that way the chinese and russians, as well as the muslim world can ruin the rest of the world, then and only then  would some of you c***ts realize the yanks actually are kind of a big deal in world politics!

Obviously I dont want this to happen but I do want the states to disallow 100% of people who might want to bring harm to her people barred forever from her shores, be they Canadian, Muslim Christian or Jew!

The US couldn't possibly even dream of that, as their economy would collapse in days.

No Japanese cars, no Chinese consumer goods, no electronic devices from Taiwan (including Apple), and no middle eastern oil. I'd give the place a day and a half.

This "build a wall around the country" fantasy is the kind of BS that repukelican blowhards like to fume about when running for their presidential primaries. It appeals to the kind of low-information, intellectually-challenged voters that they've been courting for years.

Even tho the US is the most well placed country by a long way to run its economy exclusively domestically, the notion that it could is hilarious. Its a great demonstration of how interconnected the whole world is.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on July 27, 2015, 01:24:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 27, 2015, 06:35:20 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 27, 2015, 06:23:45 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2015, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2015, 06:55:22 PM
To answer your question I would say this, since America can do no right,no matter what they do, I think they should let absolutely no one in for the next generation! They should become isolationists, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves, that way the chinese and russians, as well as the muslim world can ruin the rest of the world, then and only then  would some of you c***ts realize the yanks actually are kind of a big deal in world politics!

Obviously I dont want this to happen but I do want the states to disallow 100% of people who might want to bring harm to her people barred forever from her shores, be they Canadian, Muslim Christian or Jew!

The US couldn't possibly even dream of that, as their economy would collapse in days.

No Japanese cars, no Chinese consumer goods, no electronic devices from Taiwan (including Apple), and no middle eastern oil. I'd give the place a day and a half.

This "build a wall around the country" fantasy is the kind of BS that repukelican blowhards like to fume about when running for their presidential primaries. It appeals to the kind of low-information, intellectually-challenged voters that they've been courting for years.

Even tho the US is the most well placed country by a long way to run its economy exclusively domestically, the notion that it could is hilarious. Its a great demonstration of how interconnected the whole world is.

Up to WW2 it wouldn't have been a problem. But since then the US has moved almost all of its manufacturing to the various cheap labour holes all over the world.

I can't verify the stats in this video and it is about 3 years old, but it is worth viewing: http://youtu.be/H8BGK97IKgg (http://youtu.be/H8BGK97IKgg)

The US suffers terribly because of the right/far right political duopoly that carves everything up between themselves. Neither party really does anything useful domestically. The rest of the world prefers the Democrats merely because they don't always go to war after being elected.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on July 27, 2015, 05:36:16 PM
This time last year Gaza was under a full scale attack where nowhere or anyone was safe. Day by day we saw the footage
of the place getting blown to bits. Men women and children slaughtered and injured with nowhere to go as they were locked
in the worlds largest open air prison. It was just horrific to see it all unfold, and to see how helpless they were. The 3rd full
blown war on them in the space of a few years. In that time nearly 4,000 killed and 20,000 injured. The rest of the 1.6 million
population traumatised for life.

A year on and not much has improved. Building materials have not been allowed in at a rate that allows for reconstruction of the
thousands of homes that were destroyed. 100,000 people still live in makeshift homes, tents, and UN shelters. Schools, Mosques, Universities, Government and commercial buildings lie in ruins with little prospect of reconstruction. The infrastructure destroyed
beyond recognition.

Israel violates the ceasefire agreed last August on a daily basis. At the end of March this year, they had broke the ceasefire
400 times, and the various Palestinian factions 4 times. Just this past few days they murdered 2 Palestinians in the West Bank,
and another teenager this morning. Not much mention of that in the news? Plus they brought in a new law the other day that sees anyone convicted of throwing a stone sentenced to 20 years in jail. 20 years for throwing a stone at a thief who has stolen your land, your home, your family, etc.

Aside from the death and destruction, the saddest part in the whole ongoing genocide and ethnic cleansing is the full support
Israel gets from western countries. With US support, they evade any form of justice. And one by one, more and more European
leaders give them full support. Over the years the Zionists were very smart in backing a lot of politicians that maybe one day
would rise to power. They blackmailed them, financed them, wined and dined them, and then cashed in when the rose to power.

2 examples of this currently are the upcoming US elections, and the Labour leadership contest. In the US, practically every politician
has been bought by AIPAC, and they bow to them 1st before their own country. Those running for President have already set their stall out by promising the sun moon and stars to Israel if elected. In the UK, 3 of the 4 candidates running for the Labour leadership
have also promised to support Israel in any way possible. The 3rd, Jeremy Corbyn, has always been a great supporter of Palestine, and has openly called for an arms embargo on Israel. The fear of a pro Palestinian candidate winning the leadership battle has them scared, and even scarier for them is that has could also one day become Prime Minister !!

As long as Israel receives the US support, it has the green light from the UN to carry on its policy of one day stealing all of the Palestinian land. That is their ultimate aim and goal. That is the Zionist strategy.

However, despite what Israel throws at Palestine, and its people, they stand tall with immense dignity and courage and face not only Israel, but the whole world. 3 times in recent years they have came under severe attack and who stood up for them? Who came to their rescue? Who stood up to Israel and said stop? Who told Egypt to open the gates at Rafah and let them out? This is what they have endured, and continue to endure. They have right on their side, and all Israel has is might. Day by day it is slowly starting to change. The Boycott movement have got stronger and stronger, and from my own back yard to the college campuses across the US the boycott is biting. Companies like Caterpillar, Hewlett Packard, Motorolla, and G4S are been boycotted and people are withdrawing shares. Vegetables and other produce grown on stolen land are been boycotted, and consumers are refusing to buy it when placed on the shelf. This past week at home, Spar NI and Wilsons Country Potatoes have stated that they will refuse to source goods from occupied Palestine.

Hopefully over the coming months and years we will see Israel and its warmongers in the dock at the ICC. Then we will start to see
a change, and some delayed justice delivered. Instead of been courted by politicians from here and beyond, they will be behind bars.
And one day, millions of Palestinians will be rightfully allowed to return home, and pray in Al Asqa Mosque for the 1st time.

I live in hope like the millions of Palestinians that one day this will happen.

Viva Palestina
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on October 11, 2015, 12:57:54 PM
Yahya Hassan gives his baby daughter a last kiss goodbye. She was killed by an Israeli air strike on Gaza early this morning as they slept. Her mother Nour who was 5 months pregnant was also killed in the blast

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10414512_1032035240160226_5273286702415363786_n.jpg?oh=e4b30c49b4d86fa35dd02b926495c7f7&oe=569E67BA)

They are among 11 killed in Gaza since Friday. Yesterday, 2 boys were killed at a protest near the border, and on Friday, 7 were also killed. Dozens more were injured.

In the occupied West Bank, 15 Palestinians have been killed in various parts over the past 10 days. Hundreds more have been shot with live rounds and rubber coated bullets. Israel passed a new law allowing live force to be used, and its taking effect.

4 Israelis have also been killed in stabbing incidents, and the alleged assailants executed.

As the occupation deepens every day in the West Bank, and with a failure in any leadership by Abbas, the people have started to rise.
Years of peace talks went nowhere, International law doesn't apply to Israel, full support for what they do from Uncle Sam and the other cowardly western and Arab leaders, the destruction of Gaza on a regular basis, hundreds of illegal settlers taking their land, stealing their water and natural resources, and a slow genocide and ethnic cleansing have driven the Palestinians to a point of we are alone, and we will resist, even if it is with our bare hands.

A headline in a paper the other day summed it up well.

"The Palestinians are fighting for their lives and Israel is fighting for the Occupation"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:03:12 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 11, 2015, 12:57:54 PM
Yahya Hassan gives his baby daughter a last kiss goodbye. She was killed by an Israeli air strike on Gaza early this morning as they slept. Her mother Nour who was 5 months pregnant was also killed in the blast

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10414512_1032035240160226_5273286702415363786_n.jpg?oh=e4b30c49b4d86fa35dd02b926495c7f7&oe=569E67BA)

They are among 11 killed in Gaza since Friday. Yesterday, 2 boys were killed at a protest near the border, and on Friday, 7 were also killed. Dozens more were injured.

In the occupied West Bank, 15 Palestinians have been kille


d in various parts over the past 10 days. Hundreds more have been shot with live rounds and rubber coated bullets. Israel passed a new law allowing live force to be used, and its taking effect.

4 Israelis have also been killed in stabbing incidents, and the alleged assailants executed.

As the occupation deepens every day in the West Bank, and with a failure in any leadership by Abbas, the people have started to rise.
Years of peace talks went nowhere, International law doesn't apply to Israel, full support for what they do from Uncle Sam and the other cowardly western and Arab leaders, the destruction of Gaza on a regular basis, hundreds of illegal settlers taking their land, stealing their water and natural resources, and a slow genocide and ethnic cleansing have driven the Palestinians to a point of we are alone, and we will resist, even if it is with our bare hands.

A headline in a paper the other day summed it up well.

"The Palestinians are fighting for their lives and Israel is fighting for the Occupation"

What sickens my shite is we hear nothing about what is happening on the west bank on here in the American media, which by the way, the vast majority would be Democrat in their leanings. the Jews in this country are incredibly powerful pertaining to influence in finance and politics and there media is totally and utterly devoid of integrity and balance, you simply cannot condemn Israel, it is not permitted.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on October 11, 2015, 05:38:43 PM
It will just go on and on. Israel is a tragedy too.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on October 11, 2015, 06:18:07 PM
And on it goes as another 13 year old boy was killed today. He is the 24th to be killed in 11 days
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 11, 2015, 07:39:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 11, 2015, 06:18:07 PM
And on it goes as another 13 year old boy was killed today. He is the 24th to be killed in 11 days

I am ashamed to say I was very much pro Israeli at one point, I was wrong in that although I want them to be secure as a nation, what they are doing to the people of Palestine defies belief and on that score I condemn them 100%.

Why can the mainstream media over here not find it within them to report the atrocities committed by these bastards on the Palestinian people?

Palestinians have suffered more than enough, the world needs to intervene, sadly, they don't care and innocents are dying daily!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on October 13, 2015, 12:56:17 PM
The Palestinian Ministry of Health (MOH) has reported that Israeli soldiers shot and killed 27 Palestinians, including three killed in Jerusalem on Monday, meanwhile more than 1400 others were injured by Israeli troops gunfire since the start of October.

The MOH said in its report that among the 27 killed Palestinians there are seven children. According to the press statement, 16 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank and 11 from the Gaza Strip since October.

The Ministry of Health report also showed that since the start of October 4000 residents were treated for the effects of tear gas inhalation fired by Israeli troops targeting Palestinian protesters.

Three Palestinians were killed on Monday after being shoot dead by Israeli soldiers in Jerusalem. On Monday evening, the Israeli military claimed that a Palestinian man stabbed an Israeli passenger on a bus in Jerusalem, and a soldier on the bus shot and killed the man.

But the Israeli military account is contradictory, claiming that the victim of the stabbing attack was a civilian passenger, but that a soldier was taken to the hospital with light wounds. No civilian victim was identified or taken to the hospital, which has led to speculation that the Israeli military spokesperson's account may not be entirely accurate.

27 Palestinians killed, 1400 injured and 400 arrested in October

The Palestinian Ministry of Health stated on Monday that 25 Palestinians have been injured during ongoing clashes between local youth and invading Israeli soldiers in West Bank communities.

Clashes were reported in the central West Bank city of Ramallah, Nablus and Tulkarem in northern West Bank, and in the southern West Bank cities of Bethlehem and Hebron.

In related news, the Palestinian Prisoners' Association said that 400 Palestinians have been arrested by Israeli forces in the past ten days.

The Association said that nearly half of those arrested are between the ages of 14 and 20. The Prisoners' Association noted that the arrests were mostly made in East Jerusalem and in Palestinian Authority controlled areas, also known as area A.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Declan on October 13, 2015, 02:36:40 PM
https://www.facebook.com/GazaIPN/videos/960814253960445/ (https://www.facebook.com/GazaIPN/videos/960814253960445/) - Graphic stuff in here as a warning - Hatred runs deep
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:15:37 PM
Why does the so called free press not write about the horror in Palestine?

The UN sits idly by and the yanks do feck all but throw money at Israel to prop it up. shameful.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on October 13, 2015, 04:18:22 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:15:37 PM
Why does the so called free press not write about the horror in Palestine?

The UN sits idly by and the yanks do feck all but throw money at Israel to prop it up. shameful.
+1.
Meanwhile RTÉ news yesterday evening was telling us all about 4 Israelis being stabbed. No mention of Palestinians being killed.
Disgraceful >:(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 04:20:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:15:37 PM
Why does the so called free press not write about the horror in Palestine?

The UN sits idly by and the yanks do feck all but throw money at Israel to prop it up. shameful.

Obama has had the most acrimonious relationship with Israel for any US President ever. Surely you should be delighted with him and condemn his predecessors?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 04:20:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:15:37 PM
Why does the so called free press not write about the horror in Palestine?

The UN sits idly by and the yanks do feck all but throw money at Israel to prop it up. shameful.

Obama has had the most acrimonious relationship with Israel for any US President ever. Surely you should be delighted with him and condemn his predecessors?

Acrimonious relationship yes but here is the rub, has he held them accountable or imposed sanctions or stopped giving them the big checks? Nope, he sat on his hands and has done nothing but feed the bastards that are killing Palestinian men, women and children, on this score he will get no praise from me!

The Palestinians had an opportunity for nationhood but Arafat blew it! I wish they had taken it, things would have been a lot better than they are now.


I condemn them all including him and Bush, Clinton etc, both Liberal and conservative, try that once muppet, take the blinkers off!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 04:47:34 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 04:20:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:15:37 PM
Why does the so called free press not write about the horror in Palestine?

The UN sits idly by and the yanks do feck all but throw money at Israel to prop it up. shameful.

Obama has had the most acrimonious relationship with Israel for any US President ever. Surely you should be delighted with him and condemn his predecessors?

Acrimonious relationship yes but here is the rub, has he held them accountable or imposed sanctions or stopped giving them the big checks? Nope, he sat on his hands and has done nothing but feed the b**tards that are killing Palestinian men, women and children, on this score he will get no praise from me!

The Palestinians had an opportunity for nationhood but Arafat blew it! I wish they had taken it, things would have been a lot better than they are now.


I condemn them all including him and Bush, Clinton etc, both Liberal and conservative, try that once muppet, take the blinkers off!

He can't hold them accountable, thanks to your beloved Republicans. You know the ones who snubbed The White House, and anyone remotely with a conscience, by holding Netanyahu up as a hero in Congress.

And you don't condemn them all. You only condemn Obama, over and over and over again. Do you think people can't see through this?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:54:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 04:47:34 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 04:20:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 04:15:37 PM
Why does the so called free press not write about the horror in Palestine?

The UN sits idly by and the yanks do feck all but throw money at Israel to prop it up. shameful.

Obama has had the most acrimonious relationship with Israel for any US President ever. Surely you should be delighted with him and condemn his predecessors?


I do hold them accountable, I think the Israeli leader is a war criminal and should be held accountable for the atrocities he has had committed through his armies.

The republicans stance on Palestine is an absolute disgrace, it is shameful what they are allowing to happen to the Palestinian people.

Is that strong enough rhetoric for you muppet????

Can you hold the President of the US of A accountable for his non action on this issues when he had the backing of both houses?



Acrimonious relationship yes but here is the rub, has he held them accountable or imposed sanctions or stopped giving them the big checks? Nope, he sat on his hands and has done nothing but feed the b**tards that are killing Palestinian men, women and children, on this score he will get no praise from me!

The Palestinians had an opportunity for nationhood but Arafat blew it! I wish they had taken it, things would have been a lot better than they are now.


I condemn them all including him and Bush, Clinton etc, both Liberal and conservative, try that once muppet, take the blinkers off!

He can't hold them accountable, thanks to your beloved Republicans. You know the ones who snubbed The White House, and anyone remotely with a conscience, by holding Netanyahu up as a hero in Congress.

And you don't condemn them all. You only condemn Obama, over and over and over again. Do you think people can't see through this?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 05:08:38 PM
QuoteI do hold them accountable, I think the Israeli leader is a war criminal and should be held accountable for the atrocities he has had committed through his armies.

The republicans stance on Palestine is an absolute disgrace, it is shameful what they are allowing to happen to the Palestinian people.

Is that strong enough rhetoric for you muppet????

Can you hold the President of the US of A accountable for his non action on this issues when he had the backing of both houses?

I agree with all of that.

Obama deserves some criticism, fair enough, but he still went further than anyone before him. How useless have they been?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 05:08:38 PM
QuoteI do hold them accountable, I think the Israeli leader is a war criminal and should be held accountable for the atrocities he has had committed through his armies.

The republicans stance on Palestine is an absolute disgrace, it is shameful what they are allowing to happen to the Palestinian people.

Is that strong enough rhetoric for you muppet????

Can you hold the President of the US of A accountable for his non action on this issues when he had the backing of both houses?

I agree with all of that.

Obama deserves some criticism, fair enough, but he still went further than anyone before him. How useless have they been?

How has he went further? He did not have the balls to put the f**kers in their place when he had the clout to do so, it works like this, when you are the Prez and you own both houses you in effect, can do whatever the feck you like, especially with the majorities he had, on this issue he did feck all, to his credit he continues to be frosty to the war criminal, that is the height of his helping the Palestinian people.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 05:18:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 05:08:38 PM
QuoteI do hold them accountable, I think the Israeli leader is a war criminal and should be held accountable for the atrocities he has had committed through his armies.

The republicans stance on Palestine is an absolute disgrace, it is shameful what they are allowing to happen to the Palestinian people.

Is that strong enough rhetoric for you muppet????

Can you hold the President of the US of A accountable for his non action on this issues when he had the backing of both houses?

I agree with all of that.

Obama deserves some criticism, fair enough, but he still went further than anyone before him. How useless have they been?

How has he went further? He did not have the balls to put the f**kers in their place when he had the clout to do so, it works like this, when you are the Prez and you own both houses you in effect, can do whatever the feck you like, especially with the majorities he had, on this issue he did feck all, to his credit he continues to be frosty to the war criminal, that is the height of his helping the Palestinian people.

That still puts him ahead of any other President.

As for having both Houses, we both know it is not as simple as that. Democrats have historically supported Israel, but that is weakening.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:12:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 05:18:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 05:08:38 PM
QuoteI do hold them accountable, I think the Israeli leader is a war criminal and should be held accountable for the atrocities he has had committed through his armies.

The republicans stance on Palestine is an absolute disgrace, it is shameful what they are allowing to happen to the Palestinian people.

Is that strong enough rhetoric for you muppet????

Can you hold the President of the US of A accountable for his non action on this issues when he had the backing of both houses?

I agree with all of that.

Obama deserves some criticism, fair enough, but he still went further than anyone before him. How useless have they been?

How has he went further? He did not have the balls to put the f**kers in their place when he had the clout to do so, it works like this, when you are the Prez and you own both houses you in effect, can do whatever the feck you like, especially with the majorities he had, on this issue he did feck all, to his credit he continues to be frosty to the war criminal, that is the height of his helping the Palestinian people.

That still puts him ahead of any other President.

As for having both Houses, we both know it is not as simple as that. Democrats have historically supported Israel, but that is weakening.

It cannot weaken fast enough, but at least it is weakening on that side of the house, the republicans shat the bed on Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 13, 2015, 11:47:40 PM
Israel has shifted so far to the right that they're losing support on the American left that they used to take for granted. Younger people in the states are a lot more likely to sympathize with the Palestinians. The biased pro-Israeli media coverage will only get them so far. Time's running out for the Zionist state, I think.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 14, 2015, 12:33:16 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 13, 2015, 11:47:40 PM
Israel has shifted so far to the right that they're losing support on the American left that they used to take for granted. Younger people in the states are a lot more likely to sympathize with the Palestinians. The biased pro-Israeli media coverage will only get them so far. Time's running out for the Zionist state, I think.

You think wrong!


These f**kers are serious fighting machines that are going to destroy anyone who dares cross them!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 14, 2015, 03:49:21 AM
Without Anerican support they're nothing. They're losing American support.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Gmac on October 14, 2015, 04:10:42 AM
The have lost the support of  the Obama government which will be gone in 16 months things could change around completely after he is gone.if Israels time is running out what will it be replaced by another situation like Syria  or  Libya  the world is volatile enough right now .
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: stew on October 14, 2015, 01:36:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 14, 2015, 03:49:21 AM
Without Anerican support they're nothing. They're losing American support.
Bollocks, they are a tremendous fighting machine, Egypt Syria and Jordan had a rattle at them and lost in 6 days, 6 fooking days, and golden balls Nasser led the charge if memory serves.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AZOffaly on October 14, 2015, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: stew on October 14, 2015, 01:36:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 14, 2015, 03:49:21 AM
Without Anerican support they're nothing. They're losing American support.
Bollocks, they are a tremendous fighting machine, Egypt Syria and Jordan had a rattle at them and lost in 6 days, 6 fooking days, and golden balls Nasser led the charge if memory serves.

How many billions a year does the US give Israel in 'aid' that ends up in the IDF? Without that money, you'd see how tremendous they are.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on October 14, 2015, 02:06:50 PM
It doesn't matter who is President, as their 1st loyalty is to Israel. Hardly one politician in the US isn't indebted to the large
and influential Jewish lobby group AIPAC. Once elected, they will vote every time in favour of the Apartheid state and hand over
vast sums of US taxpayers money. Roughly $7 million per day is handed over in military aid. Add in additional hundreds of millions for
their Iron Dome project, and along with a free trade agreement, they do quite nicely from the USA.

Plus they get full protection at UN when it comes to been found guilty of vast crimes against humanity. Obama has joined the list
of Presidents who have just rolled over and vetoed any resolution against them. He is a puppet to the Israelis, and they shit on
him every chance they get. He just sits there and laps it up like the obedient child he was elected to be.

The only hope for any change in the region is coming through the boycott movement as political leaders have failed the
PAlestinians time and time again. Even the Irish have failed them, especially Sinn Fein who use their struggle as a political
hobby horse they can jump on and off. 

Israel will self destruct, and when they do, the world will be fcuked.......
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on October 14, 2015, 02:12:02 PM
This is a statement from the warmonger Clinton who hopes to be president. Not one word on the 24 odd Palestinians who have been murdered, many of them children:

Hillary Clinton Statement on Recent Violence in Israel

"I am alarmed by the recent wave of attacks against Israelis, including more than a dozen separate attacks since last Saturday. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. Men and women living in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and elsewhere cannot carry groceries or travel to prayer without looking over their shoulder. It is wrong, and it must stop. There's no place for violence--only dialogue can produce a lasting peace."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on October 16, 2015, 03:17:23 AM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:12:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 05:18:17 PM
Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2015, 05:08:38 PM
QuoteI do hold them accountable, I think the Israeli leader is a war criminal and should be held accountable for the atrocities he has had committed through his armies.

The republicans stance on Palestine is an absolute disgrace, it is shameful what they are allowing to happen to the Palestinian people.

Is that strong enough rhetoric for you muppet????

Can you hold the President of the US of A accountable for his non action on this issues when he had the backing of both houses?

I agree with all of that.

Obama deserves some criticism, fair enough, but he still went further than anyone before him. How useless have they been?

How has he went further? He did not have the balls to put the f**kers in their place when he had the clout to do so, it works like this, when you are the Prez and you own both houses you in effect, can do whatever the feck you like, especially with the majorities he had, on this issue he did feck all, to his credit he continues to be frosty to the war criminal, that is the height of his helping the Palestinian people.

That still puts him ahead of any other President.

As for having both Houses, we both know it is not as simple as that. Democrats have historically supported Israel, but that is weakening.

It cannot weaken fast enough, but at least it is weakening on that side of the house, the republicans shat the bed on Israel.

Israel is losing support in the US especially regarding younger Jews who tend to grow up liberal and aren-t very impressed by 24&7 brutality in the name of Jewish destiny

There are many ways to be Jewish other than shoving the butt of a gun into an elderley woman in Hebron  or elsewhere
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSFurxWsVb8

Palestinians are reallz on top of filming all the Zionist shit the soldiers serve them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on October 16, 2015, 03:36:46 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 14, 2015, 02:06:50 PM
It doesn't matter who is President, as their 1st loyalty is to Israel. Hardly one politician in the US isn't indebted to the large
and influential Jewish lobby group AIPAC. Once elected, they will vote every time in favour of the Apartheid state and hand over
vast sums of US taxpayers money. Roughly $7 million per day is handed over in military aid. Add in additional hundreds of millions for
their Iron Dome project, and along with a free trade agreement, they do quite nicely from the USA.

Plus they get full protection at UN when it comes to been found guilty of vast crimes against humanity. Obama has joined the list
of Presidents who have just rolled over and vetoed any resolution against them. He is a puppet to the Israelis, and they shit on
him every chance they get. He just sits there and laps it up like the obedient child he was elected to be.

The only hope for any change in the region is coming through the boycott movement as political leaders have failed the
PAlestinians time and time again. Even the Irish have failed them, especially Sinn Fein who use their struggle as a political
hobby horse they can jump on and off. 

Israel will self destruct, and when they do, the world will be fcuked.......
[/quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSFurxWsVb8

The Republicans had a big focus on Israel in 2012 with Sheldon Adelson and it bombed.
The Dems focused on Latinos and women. they won. 

If it-s an election in an economic crisis people will vote for jobs, not some stupid Zionist moan that delivers nothing to ordinary Yanks. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on October 21, 2015, 02:28:11 PM
Benjamin Netanyahu blames Holocaust on Palestinian leader Haj Amin al-Husseini

Benjamin Netanyahu has placed the blame for the extermination of millions of Jewish people during World War II on the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, in a controversial speech.

The Israeli Prime Minister told the 37th World Zionist Congress this week that Nazi leader Adolf Hitler only wanted to expel the Jews - but was convinced to exterminate them by the Muslim leader, who died in 1974.

He said that the pair met in November 1941, and claimed: "Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jew. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here (to Palestine).' According to Netanyahu, Hitler then asked: "What should I do with them?" and the Mufti replied: "Burn them."

    How long till Netanyahu has to apologise? Claim he 'misspoke' re Hitler and the Holocaust? Surely that comment can't be allowed to stand?
    — Mehdi Hasan (@mehdirhasan) October 20, 2015

Mr Netanyahu has made similar claims in the past, including during a Knesset speech in 2012, where he described Husseini -  who visited Hitler and Himmler and supported their persecution of the Jews of Europe - as "one of the leading architects" of the final solution, Haaretz reported.

Others have detailed Husseini's influence on Hitler, yet the theory that Husseini was the one to initiate the mass murder of European Jews has been widely rejected.

    Netanyahu was willing to whitewash Hitler to smear Palestinians. Just let that sink in to understand how low he has sunk.
    — Yousef Munayyer (@YousefMunayyer) October 21, 2015

In his speech, as detailed in a transcript issued by the Prime Minister's Office, Mr Netanyahu also described attacks on the Jewish community in Jerusalem in 1920, 1921 and 1929 as being "instigated by a call of the Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini, who was later sought for war crimes in the Nuremberg trials because he had a central role in fomenting the final solution".

    Not only does PM @netanyahu blame Palestinians for the Jewish holocaust, he paints Hitler as a reasonable guy, forced to commit heinous acts
    — Ferrari Sheppard (@stopbeingfamous) October 21, 2015

But it has been met with outrage by writers and users of social media, who have branded Mr Netanyahu's comments a "bizarre kind of Holocaust revisionism". "This statement is almost too absurd to debunk," the Alternet reported.

Others, such as novelist Linda Grant, accused Mr Netanyahu of being "toxic" and of effectively "exonerating Hitler".

    Netanyahu has said something so profoundly toxic he might have brought the whole Jewish world down on his head. He's exonerated Hitler.
    — Linda Grant (@lindasgrant) October 21, 2015

And some described the PM's comments as a "whitewash" and "smear on Palestinians".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/benjamin-netanyahu-blames-holocaust-on-palestinian-leader-haj-amin-al-husseini-a6702091.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on October 21, 2015, 02:32:36 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR2CJDeW0AAcsrI.png)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on January 08, 2016, 11:28:32 PM
CRH sells controversial stake in Israel's only cement firm Mashav

CRH has sold its 25pc stake in Israel's only cement firm, Mashav, ending a focus of huge controversy for the Irish group.

    Share

CRH has been targeted by pro-Palestinian activists at its AGMs who pressed for the global building materials firm to sell the stake in the Israeli group.

Cement produced by Mashav has been used to build barriers for a widely condemned security wall that separates Israel from the Palenstinian West Bank.

The infamous wall dividing the West Bank from Israel helped inspire dramatic scenes in the recent Brad Pitt film World War Z, where zombies attacked a giant wall protecting Israel.

CRH owned a stake in Mashav since 2001, and for years has drawn fire from some shareholders and international pressure groups for retaining its holding in the company.

Mashav is the holding company for a firm called Nesher, whose cement has ultimately been used to make huge concrete slabs that were used to construct the wall dividing the West Bank from Israel.

Over a decade ago, the Israeli government began building what will eventually be a 700km-long security fence. About 10pc of it comprises a concrete wall that's about 25 feet high.

The Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign is among the groups that for years put pressure on CRH to divest its stake in Mashav. The group has previously staged protests at CRH annual general meetings.

http://www.independent.ie/business/crh-sells-controversial-stake-in-israels-only-cement-firm-mashav-34345981.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 09, 2016, 11:59:46 AM
In order to understand why Israel is such a fucked up country with such a grim future you have to understand the full awfulness of the Shoah .They have never dealt with it. they just threw themselves into militarism and settler colonialism. Now it is pretty clear that militarism was no answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqbxtrTBP2A

The Judenrat leaders were FG golf club types who ran the ghettos for the Germans and sent their own people to the extermination camps including their own children. They were all murdered in the end, if they hadn't already committed suicide.

4 Jewish generations ago.


http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ghettos/rumkowski.html

A grievous blow has struck the ghetto. They are asking us to give up the best we possess -the children and the elderly. I was unworthy of having a child of my own, so I gave the best years of my life to children. I've lived and breathed with children, I never imagined I would be forced to deliver this sacrifice to the altar with my own hands. In my old age, I must stretch out my hands and beg: Brothers and sisters! Hand them over to me! Fathers and mothers: Give me your children!



I had a suspicion something was going to befall us. I anticipated "something" and was always like a watchman: on guard to prevent it. But I was unsuccessful because I did not know what was threatening us. The taking of the sick from the hospitals caught me completely by surprise. And I give you the best proof there is of this: I had my own nearest and dearest among them and I could do nothing for them!



I thought that would be the end of it, that after that, they'd leave us in peace, the peace for which I long so much, for which I've always worked, which has been my goal. But something else, it turned out, was destined for us. Such is the fate of the Jews: always more suffering and always worse suffering, especially in times of war.



Yesterday afternoon, they gave me the order to send more than 20,000 Jews out of the ghetto, and if not - "We will do it!" So the question became, 'Should we take it upon ourselves, do it ourselves, or leave it to others to do?". Well, we - that is, I and my closest associates - thought first not about "How many will perish?" but "How many is it possible to save?" And we reached the conclusion that, however hard it would be for us, we should take the implementation of this order into our own hands.



I must perform this difficult and bloody operation - I must cut off limbs in order to save the body itself. I must take children because, if not, others may be taken as well - God forbid.



I have no thought of consoling you today. Nor do I wish to calm you. I must lay bare your full anguish and pain. I come to you like a bandit, to take from you what you treasure most in your hearts! I have tried, using every possible means, to get the order revoked. I tried - when that proved to be impossible - to soften the order. Just yesterday, I ordered a list of children aged 9 - I wanted at least to save this one aged-group: the nine to 10 year olds. But I was not granted this concession. On only one point did I succeed: in saving the 10 year olds and up. Let this be a consolation to our profound grief.



There are, in the ghetto, many patients who can expect to live only a few days more, maybe a few weeks. I don't know if the idea is diabolical or not, but I must say it: "Give me the sick. In their place we can save the healthy."

I know how dear the sick are to any family, and particularly to Jews. However, when cruel demands are made, one has to weigh and measure: who shall, can and may be saved? And common sense dictates that the saved must be those who can be saved and those who have a chance of being rescued, not those who cannot be saved in any case...







Rumkowksi tasting the ghetto soup


We live in the ghetto, mind you. We live with so much restriction that we do not have enough even for the healthy, let alone for the sick. Each of us feeds the sick at the expense of our own health: we give our bread to the sick. We give them our meager ration of sugar, our little piece of meat. And what's the result? Not enough to cure the sick, and we ourselves become ill. Of course, such sacrifices are the most beautiful and noble. But there are times when one has to choose: sacrifice the sick, who haven't the slightest chance of recovery and who also may make others ill, or rescue the healthy.



I could not deliberate over this problem for long; I had to resolve it in favor of the healthy. In this spirit, I gave the appropriate instructions to the doctors, and they will be expected to deliver all incurable patients, so that the healthy, who want and are able to live, will be saved in their place.



I understand you, mothers; I see your tears, alright. I also feel what you feel in your hearts, you fathers who will have to go to work in the morning after your children have been taken from you, when just yesterday you were playing with your dear little ones. All this I know and feel. Since 4 o'clock yesterday, when I first found out about the order, I have been utterly broken. I share your pain. I suffer because of your anguish, and I don't know how I'll survive this - where I'll find the strength to do so.



I must tell you a secret: they requested 24,000 victims, 3000 a day for eight days. I succeeded in reducing the number to 20,000, but only on the condition that these be children under the age of 10. Children 10 and older are safe! Since the children and the aged together equal only some 13,000 souls, the gap will have to be filled with the sick.



I can barely speak. I am exhausted; I only want to tell you what I am asking of you: Help me carry out this action! I am trembling. I am afraid that others, God forbid, will do it themselves.



A broken Jew stands before you. Do not envy me. This is the most difficult of all orders I have ever had to carry out at any time. I reach out to you with my broken, trembling hands and beg: Give into my hands the victims! So that we can avoid having further victims, and a population of 100,000 Jews can be preserved! So, they promised me: If we deliver our victims by ourselves, there will be peace!!!



At this point in the speech the crowd begins shouting. Many cry out:

"We will not let the children go alone! We will all go!"



Rumkowski continues:







Rumkowski delivers one of his many ghetto speeches


These are empty phrases!!! I don't have the strength to argue with you! If the authorities were to arrive, none of you would be shouting!



I understand what it means to tear off a part of the body. Yesterday, I begged on my knees, but it did not work. From small villages with Jewish populations of 7000 to 8000, barely 1000 arrived here. So which is better? What do you want? That 80,000 to 90,000 Jews remain, or God forbid, that the whole population be annihilated?



You may judge as you please; my duty is to preserve the Jews who remain. I do not speak to hot-heads! I speak to your reason and conscience. I have done and will continue doing everything possible to keep arms from appearing in the streets and blood from being shed. The order could not be undone; it could only be reduced.



One needs the heart of a bandit to ask from you what I am asking. But put yourself in my place, think logically, and you'll reach the conclusion that I cannot proceed any other way. The part that can be saved is much larger than the part that must be given away!"



End Speech


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



In August of 1944 Chaim Mordechai Rumkowski voluntarily boarded a train headed for Auschwitz in order to accompany his brother Jozef who was forcibly deported to the death camp.



The death of Rumkowski:



One widely accepted account is that Rumkowski was beaten to death by one of the Sonderkommando's in Birkenau, made up of Jews from the Łódź ghetto. His body was believed to have been thrown into an open pit and burned.



An excerpt from the book "Defy the Darkness: A Tale of Courage in the Shadow of Mengele," written by survivor Joe Rosenblum, gives the following account of Rumkowski's fate:








Jews preparing to be deported


As the seemingly never-ending parade of black locomotives chugged to the ramp, I was surprised to see how many people from ghettos or even concentration camps the Germans were piling in. This change raised opportunities for revenge, a chance to pay back the Jews and others who had turned against their own kind to gain an extra slice of bread or a more comfortable bed. The most blatant example I saw occurred in September 1944 when the Jewish policemen from the Polish city of Łódź were brought in. Among them was Chaim Rumkowski, president of the whole ghetto, as Lazar had been in our town. Rumkowski was getting the same reward as Lazar: death.



The Łódź Jewish Council, through the Jewish police there, had turned in about fifty Jews who had been underworld members in 1940. These guys had been thugs, thieves, and con men. Like Lazar, they'd have people steal for them, then ransom back the goods. The men had committed all kinds of crimes, except murder. Strangely, in Birkenau they were a closely knit lot, but kindly. A few had become powerful Senior Block Inmates, including Morris the Hasid, to whom I had paid the fifty dollars to get my job with the Czech.



There was also Blackie, who got his name because he was so dark-skinned. He had been a thief and a con man in Łódź, but here he was a man whose word was good and who took care of his people. It was Blackie I went to when I wanted a job for someone. I did it so often he once looked at me and asked, "Who else are you going to bring in here? Your uncle? Your cousin? Your nephew? No babies, Joe. I draw the line there. They're too young," he said, his dark skin framing a smile bright enough to light up the sky.



Even though they usually were good people, Morris, Blackie, and the others had vowed revenge on the Jewish policemen who had captured them. One night, the former thieves had their chance. They spotted the Jewish police contingent from Łódź emptying out of one of the cattle cars.



"We're going to have our revenge," Blackie whispered to me. "We're going to get them gassed."  The policemen didn't know which line was which. Mengele had put them into the group that was going to live and be shipped off to labor camps. Then a couple of the Łódź underground group, including Blackie, walked over to the Jewish police, looked them in the eye, then pointed over to the death line.



The policemen, not knowing the difference, meekly obeyed and were marched to their death. They joined Rumkowski, who was old and lame, and was being carried to the crematorium on a litter.







Rumkowski presiding over a meeting in the ghetto


"Take a look," Blackie whispered to me. "Now he's in a litter. He sent a lot of us to the camps. Lots of us were gassed. It's his turn."



Rumkowski didn't know what was happening. He turned to me, of all people, and asked, "What goes on here?"  "Can't you smell? Can't you see the fire?" I replied, anger and revenge in my voice for what he had done to my friends.



"Where am I?"



"Auschwitz."



"Oh, my God," he said, smacking his forehead with his palm. Then he started reciting a Jewish prayer as two guards picked up his litter to carry him away.



There he was, a man who had been rich and powerful, in charge of a city out of which had poured the products of enormous factories. He thought he would save himself by doing the Germans' bidding. As they had for Lazar, the Nazis ultimately had more use for him dead than alive. I felt no sympathy, no pain. Rumkowski was a traitor and deserved a traitor's death. Later, I talked to Blackie about what they had done to the Łódź Jewish police. "You did what you did. I guess you had to do it," I told him.



"We were pushed out of the ghetto because we were in the underworld. I didn't know any better. I considered it my job, which I went to while people were sleeping in their beds. But we had a heart, and this guy didn't," Blackie said, looking grim.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ashman on January 10, 2016, 01:04:11 AM
Seafoid

That is a truly disgraceful comment and if you stand over it you are a Cnut.

Retract please .
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2016, 08:19:59 AM
Quote from: ashman on January 10, 2016, 01:04:11 AM
Seafoid

That is a truly disgraceful comment and if you stand over it you are a Cnut.

Retract please .
Never forget what happened, because if you do you can't understand how to fix Israel.
And beating the shit out of Gaza will never erase the hell of WW2.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2016, 08:41:04 PM
ISIS in Gaza. Bualadh bos for Israel, long term strategic thinking maestros, run of course out of the Kirya in Tel Aviv by Maj General Cupid Stunt.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/01/14/isis-in-gaza/

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ashman on January 10, 2016, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2016, 08:19:59 AM
Quote from: ashman on January 10, 2016, 01:04:11 AM
Seafoid

That is a truly disgraceful comment and if you stand over it you are a Cnut.

Retract please .
Never forget what happened, because if you do you can't understand how to fix Israel.
And beating the shit out of Gaza will never erase the hell of WW2.

"They were Fg golf club types"

I am not a supporter of any political party but that comment is a disgrace and you should retract .
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2016, 10:07:49 PM
Quote from: ashman on January 10, 2016, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 10, 2016, 08:19:59 AM
Quote from: ashman on January 10, 2016, 01:04:11 AM
Seafoid

That is a truly disgraceful comment and if you stand over it you are a Cnut.

Retract please .
Never forget what happened, because if you do you can't understand how to fix Israel.
And beating the shit out of Gaza will never erase the hell of WW2.

"They were Fg golf club types"

I am not a supporter of any political party but that comment is a disgrace and you should retract .

There are FG golf club types everywhere, Ashman. They tend to run the show. Very good business people and usually they wear the right kind of jumpers.
South American junta types often remind me of Fine Gaelers.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ashman on January 10, 2016, 10:15:03 PM
You strike me as a very very bitter man.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2016, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ashman on January 10, 2016, 10:15:03 PM
You strike me as a very very bitter man.
Is that with fizzy water or not?
I have been following Israel since 2000 and every year it gets worse. The denouement is going to be brutal.
Dumping Europe's hated,  persecuted and unwanted Jews post ww2 on Palestine was a f**king stupid idea.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ashman on January 10, 2016, 10:42:24 PM
Nothing to do with Israel or Palestine.  My beef was with your labelling of those patrolling ghettos as being "FG types".   I think you are not great a listening to others . 

Again you should retract .  The above comment is sick . 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2016, 10:46:24 PM
Quote from: ashman on January 10, 2016, 10:42:24 PM
Nothing to do with Israel or Palestine.  My beef was with your labelling of those patrolling ghettos as being "FG types".   I think you are not great a listening to others . 

Again you should retract .  The above comment is sick .
I have no intention of doing so, Ash. you are trying to make an argument without having basic coherence.
Every society has an elite. Those Judenrat unfortunates  were elite. People in lemon jumpers in Ballyhaunis GC are elite and will remind yu of it. In the newsagents in enniscrone the owner wears pink and lemon jumpers and has a very strong gimp that lead me to suspect that she was  a FG golfer. This was confirmed during a trip to the golf club. One of my grand aunts played golf and voted FG as well. Very respectable people. 
What is your point  ? is it that society is actually run by mid ranking PS employees or something ?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: ashman on January 10, 2016, 11:01:03 PM
You are batshit .  Bye
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2016, 11:28:12 AM
Quote from: ashman on January 10, 2016, 11:01:03 PM
You are batshit .  Bye
You only understand what you see. And we are all learning.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Denn Forever on January 11, 2016, 12:51:41 PM
Quote from: ashman on January 10, 2016, 11:01:03 PM
You are batshit .  Bye

In substantial quanties, a very valuable substance.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2016, 09:33:20 PM
Israel.is getting interesting again. The minister for education has started banning books. Something remarkable considering Jewish history. And AIPAC has to invite Trump to its conference even though.most Jews are opposed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 06, 2017, 10:24:47 PM
I guess it's time to bring this thread back as it could be busy here following the stupid decision today by Trump
to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

This is a very dangerous move, and over the coming days and weeks we will see just how bad it is.

Israel have the best Government money can buy in the USA. Nearly every politician has been bought by AIPAC,
the large Jewish lobby group. Democratic and Republicans alike feed at the money pit and do whatever is asked
of them by Israel.

This will be messy.....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: OgraAnDun on December 06, 2017, 10:44:02 PM
When even the American lapdogs in Saudi Arabia are publicly stating that it's a bad move, you know it's a huge mistake. I can't understand it as it's obviously going to seriously inflame tensions, but I suppose his financial backers must want it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: bennydorano on December 06, 2017, 10:46:32 PM
What is he actually hoping to achieve?  Presumably only the US and Israel will now refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, the rest of the world will presumably say we don't agree and refuse to recognise it as such. Will anything actually change bar the US Consulate moving from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, heckles being raised and a likely backlash from Palestinians? Is the US not wildly over thinking what actual power it has in this area. Kingdom of Heaven.....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 06, 2017, 11:11:21 PM
Prior to his election, Obama also called Jerusalem the capital of Israel at the AIPAC convention in '08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkxtErunF3Q
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on December 06, 2017, 11:17:45 PM
He may have American blood on his hands before this is all over although then again, that may be part of the plan
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: trileacman on December 06, 2017, 11:23:59 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 06, 2017, 10:46:32 PM
Will anything actually change bar the US Consulate moving from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, heckles being raised and a likely backlash from Palestinians?

The real cost of his decision will probably be 5-10 Israeli lives and 50-70 Palestinian lives.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on December 06, 2017, 11:39:29 PM
Quote from: trileacman on December 06, 2017, 11:23:59 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 06, 2017, 10:46:32 PM
Will anything actually change bar the US Consulate moving from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, heckles being raised and a likely backlash from Palestinians?

The real cost of his decision will probably be 5-10 Israeli lives and 50-70 Palestinian lives.

I'm pretty sure those lives don't count though
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 07, 2017, 12:30:46 AM
This is a good read for some history on Jerusalem and the implications of the decision today...

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/how-israel-cleansing-palestinians-greater-jewish-jerusalem-800323791
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 06:09:34 AM
It is bad for Israel because it is blatant.  Israel needs the Illusion of a peace process to secure the land. Apartheid looks very bad.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: vallankumous on December 07, 2017, 07:55:23 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 06, 2017, 10:44:02 PM
When even the American lapdogs in Saudi Arabia are publicly stating that it's a bad move, you know it's a huge mistake. I can't understand it as it's obviously going to seriously inflame tensions, but I suppose his financial backers must want it.

I can't understand it either. Is it purely Zionism?
I always thought there would be some sort of political or financial logic to decision this dangerous but I can't see one here. For a change it seems this is an entirely religious based decision. Unless I'm missing something?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: vallankumous on December 07, 2017, 08:05:53 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 06, 2017, 11:23:59 PM


The real cost of his decision will probably be 5-10 Israeli lives and 50-70 Palestinian lives.

This can't be measured. Even in direct attacks it's closer to 5-230

This does not include deaths from injury later, death in custody or damage to infrastructure such as supply lines, hospitals, fuel stores, medicine, agriculture, schools etc that results in many more deaths.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on December 07, 2017, 09:06:31 AM
It's a f**k you to Muslims!!

He wants to be seen as the President who's tough on Islamist crime and it's hard to do that when there isn't any to speak of. Easier to stoke the fires and bring it upon himself and then act like the tough guy.

He's an absolute piece of shit!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: vallankumous on December 07, 2017, 09:47:00 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 07, 2017, 09:06:31 AM
It's a f**k you to Muslims!!

He wants to be seen as the President who's tough on Islamist crime and it's hard to do that when there isn't any to speak of. Easier to stoke the fires and bring it upon himself and then act like the tough guy.

He's an absolute piece of shit!

It's a holy place for Christians too. Now he wants it to be the Capital of Zionism.

Is it in the hope to get an excuse to extend and rank the war on Terrorism?

He is a piece of Sh. I laughed him off as an idiot for too long. He is an idiot but not the buffoon type of idiot.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 10:08:49 AM
Quote from: vallankumous on December 07, 2017, 09:47:00 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 07, 2017, 09:06:31 AM
It's a f**k you to Muslims!!

He wants to be seen as the President who's tough on Islamist crime and it's hard to do that when there isn't any to speak of. Easier to stoke the fires and bring it upon himself and then act like the tough guy.

He's an absolute piece of shit!

It's a holy place for Christians too. Now he wants it to be the Capital of Zionism.

Is it in the hope to get an excuse to extend and rank the war on Terrorism?

He is a piece of Sh. I laughed him off as an idiot for too long. He is an idiot but not the buffoon type of idiot.
There was an article about Trump in one of the French papers. Laughing at him while he destabilises the world.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on December 07, 2017, 11:09:52 AM
How can the US expect to be taken seriously as impartial now?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Dire Ear on December 07, 2017, 11:39:13 AM
Do they just want the Paleastinians to retaliate ( in any way ) and then pummel them again,  because that's what it looks like.  War mongering, but more subtle this time ??
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J70 on December 07, 2017, 12:51:04 PM
From what I've read from those supporting this is that basically the US is telling the Palestinians that Jerusalem is going to be the capital and that the sooner they accept that and deal with it, the sooner they can stop being childish, sort out their corrupt, kleptocratic leadership, and start working towards a "realistic" settlement.

And you know what -they might be right. Israel isn't going to stop stealing land and building settlements, and they're never going to give up East Jerusalem. The rest of the Middle East will bitch about it and do nothing, the UN will condemn it (vetoed by the US), the odd US president will offer token resistance like Obama did, drawing the wrath of Likud, and Palestinians will be fucked no matter what, like they've been for decades.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: The Iceman on December 07, 2017, 01:01:11 PM
Quote from: J70 on December 07, 2017, 12:51:04 PM
From what I've read from those supporting this is that basically the US is telling the Palestinians that Jerusalem is going to be the capital and that the sooner they accept that and deal with it, the sooner they can stop being childish, sort out their corrupt, kleptocratic leadership, and start working towards a "realistic" settlement.

And you know what -they might be right. Israel isn't going to stop stealing land and building settlements, and they're never going to give up East Jerusalem. The rest of the Middle East will bitch about it and do nothing, the UN will condemn it (vetoed by the US), the odd US president will offer token resistance like Obama did, drawing the wrath of Likud, and Palestinians will be fucked no matter what, like they've been for decades.
I agree with you on this. It's going to be one state.  The dream of two is gone. They should accept it and figure out a way to make it work. It drives me crazy to see the false narrative coming from Americans on the situation out there.  The poor Jews and the terrorist Palestinians...
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: StGallsGAA on December 07, 2017, 02:51:29 PM
It could well be that Israel called this move, knowing well it may spark another intifada.   That would then give Israel all the justification they need to take over the remainder of the West Bank in a "war on terror" with the full backing of Trump.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 03:03:48 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on December 07, 2017, 02:51:29 PM
It could well be that Israel called this move, knowing well it may spark another intifada.   That would then give Israel all the justification they need to take over the remainder of the West Bank in a "war on terror" with the full backing of Trump.
Israel has no long term strategy to defend apartheid.
In the US 70% of non Orthodox Jews have left the religion. One of the reasons is the extremism of Israel .
It is a mess . And Jerusalem under Israeli rule is a kip.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on December 07, 2017, 05:18:34 PM
starting already

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42265337
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 06:50:46 PM
I presume the next step is to declare "GrossIsrael" as one State taking in all of the West Bank.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 08:19:23 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/dec/06/steve-bell-on-donald-trump-and-jerusalem-cartoon
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
I went to Palestine 18 years ago. I thought Israel was interested in peace. It took me years to figure out why it isn't. 
When a problem is never resolved you have to understand what is driving it.

Israel is fucked with Holocaust trauma. You cannot move to another part of the world after a genocide and expect kids to grow up normal.

I was reading an article about Svetlana Alexievich who won the 2015 Literature Nobel . There is a reason Israelis are vicious c***ts who don't want peace and it goes back to World war 2 and the death zone where the largest numbers of people were murdered. Timothy snyder wrote a book about the region between belarus Poland and Ukraine called bloodlands.  That is the homeland ofthe ashkénazi Jews so people like Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon. 
27 Million soviet citizens died in WW2. That is unimaginable. 

Alexievich writes about the after effects. Russia is fucked with trauma. So is Israel.  Netanyahu is insane like Putin's insane. And they know how to manipulate their people.


http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

"The book touches on topics that were taboo during the Soviet period and have once again been excised from Putin's Russia: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, by which Stalin and Hitler carved up Europe, the executions of deserters and the psychological effects of war for years to come. Her subjects recall sweaty nightmares, grinding teeth, short tempers and an inability to see forests without thinking of twisted bodies in shallow graves.

We thought we'd leave communism behind and everything would turn out fine. But it turns out you can't leave this and become free, because these people don't understand what freedom is."




Ukrainians were blamed for the misery and subjected to harsh requisitions and reprisals that channeled starvation on to their territory, whereas Soviet citizens as a whole were told that collectivization was a grand success hindered only by nationalists and saboteurs.

It was collectivization, along with World War II (known as the "Great Fatherland War"), that created the Soviet Union that people of Alexievich's generation experienced. Both were calamities that were covered in beautiful myths, myths that worked in part because people wanted individual suffering and death to have meaning. Collectivization was said, in retrospect, to have been necessary for victory in war, and victory in war was taken to demonstrate the legitimacy of the system as such.

When we confront, today, the myth of the Great Fatherland War and of Stalin as a good manager, we are hearing not the echoes of the events themselves, but of the memory campaign of the 1970s.

In the towns of the western Soviet Union that Alexievich knew best, urban life was not simply a novelty for some, but a novelty for almost everyone, since prewar urban classes had been destroyed by war, Holocaust, and deportation
Minsk was (and remains) a capital of Soviet nostalgia, where the straw of wartime suffering is spun into the gold of political meaning. No Soviet republic suffered more from the war than Belarus, and its partisans and its "hero cities" became the loci of the cult of remembrance.

She also very quickly explained that the fault lay not with one man but with the experiences of Soviet generations, now reworked for new wars. When she listed the fake descriptions of events in Ukraine in the Russian media, she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are.""

This is from an Israeli site


https://www.google.ch/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/1.780819

Speaking on Channel 2's "Meet the Press," Omer said: "The government has come and taken control of a public broadcasting agency, and the prime minister has decided that he'll appoint the anchors and the editors and the reporters."



"We have become Turkey or Russia," the broadcasting corporation chairman added.0 "

Israel will never get better. Something awful will happen to it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: trileacman on December 07, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
I went to Palestine 18 years ago. I thought Israel was interested in peace. It took me years to figure out why it isn't. 
When a problem is never resolved you have to understand what is driving it.

Israel is fucked with Holocaust trauma. You cannot move to another part of the world after a genocide and expect kids to grow up normal.

I was reading an article about Svetlana Alexievich who won the 2015 Literature Nobel . There is a reason Israelis are vicious c***ts who don't want peace and it goes back to World war 2 and the death zone where the largest numbers of people were murdered. Timothy snyder wrote a book about the region between belarus Poland and Ukraine called bloodlands.  That is the homeland ofthe ashkénazi Jews so people like Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon. 
27 Million soviet citizens died in WW2. That is unimaginable. 

Alexievich writes about the after effects. Russia is fucked with trauma. So is Israel.  Netanyahu is insane like Putin's insane. And they know how to manipulate their people.


http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

"The book touches on topics that were taboo during the Soviet period and have once again been excised from Putin's Russia: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, by which Stalin and Hitler carved up Europe, the executions of deserters and the psychological effects of war for years to come. Her subjects recall sweaty nightmares, grinding teeth, short tempers and an inability to see forests without thinking of twisted bodies in shallow graves.

We thought we'd leave communism behind and everything would turn out fine. But it turns out you can't leave this and become free, because these people don't understand what freedom is."




Ukrainians were blamed for the misery and subjected to harsh requisitions and reprisals that channeled starvation on to their territory, whereas Soviet citizens as a whole were told that collectivization was a grand success hindered only by nationalists and saboteurs.

It was collectivization, along with World War II (known as the "Great Fatherland War"), that created the Soviet Union that people of Alexievich's generation experienced. Both were calamities that were covered in beautiful myths, myths that worked in part because people wanted individual suffering and death to have meaning. Collectivization was said, in retrospect, to have been necessary for victory in war, and victory in war was taken to demonstrate the legitimacy of the system as such.

When we confront, today, the myth of the Great Fatherland War and of Stalin as a good manager, we are hearing not the echoes of the events themselves, but of the memory campaign of the 1970s.

In the towns of the western Soviet Union that Alexievich knew best, urban life was not simply a novelty for some, but a novelty for almost everyone, since prewar urban classes had been destroyed by war, Holocaust, and deportation
Minsk was (and remains) a capital of Soviet nostalgia, where the straw of wartime suffering is spun into the gold of political meaning. No Soviet republic suffered more from the war than Belarus, and its partisans and its "hero cities" became the loci of the cult of remembrance.

She also very quickly explained that the fault lay not with one man but with the experiences of Soviet generations, now reworked for new wars. When she listed the fake descriptions of events in Ukraine in the Russian media, she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are.""

This is from an Israeli site


https://www.google.ch/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/1.780819

Speaking on Channel 2's "Meet the Press," Omer said: "The government has come and taken control of a public broadcasting agency, and the prime minister has decided that he'll appoint the anchors and the editors and the reporters."



"We have become Turkey or Russia," the broadcasting corporation chairman added.0 "

Israel will never get better. Something awful will happen to it.

Poland suffered horrifically during WW2. How do explain them not becoming c***ts?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 10:24:21 PM
Catholicism?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 08, 2017, 06:47:11 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 07, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
I went to Palestine 18 years ago. I thought Israel was interested in peace. It took me years to figure out why it isn't. 
When a problem is never resolved you have to understand what is driving it.

Israel is fucked with Holocaust trauma. You cannot move to another part of the world after a genocide and expect kids to grow up normal.

I was reading an article about Svetlana Alexievich who won the 2015 Literature Nobel . There is a reason Israelis are vicious c***ts who don't want peace and it goes back to World war 2 and the death zone where the largest numbers of people were murdered. Timothy snyder wrote a book about the region between belarus Poland and Ukraine called bloodlands.  That is the homeland ofthe ashkénazi Jews so people like Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon. 
27 Million soviet citizens died in WW2. That is unimaginable. 

Alexievich writes about the after effects. Russia is fucked with trauma. So is Israel.  Netanyahu is insane like Putin's insane. And they know how to manipulate their people.


http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

"The book touches on topics that were taboo during the Soviet period and have once again been excised from Putin's Russia: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, by which Stalin and Hitler carved up Europe, the executions of deserters and the psychological effects of war for years to come. Her subjects recall sweaty nightmares, grinding teeth, short tempers and an inability to see forests without thinking of twisted bodies in shallow graves.

We thought we'd leave communism behind and everything would turn out fine. But it turns out you can't leave this and become free, because these people don't understand what freedom is."




Ukrainians were blamed for the misery and subjected to harsh requisitions and reprisals that channeled starvation on to their territory, whereas Soviet citizens as a whole were told that collectivization was a grand success hindered only by nationalists and saboteurs.

It was collectivization, along with World War II (known as the "Great Fatherland War"), that created the Soviet Union that people of Alexievich's generation experienced. Both were calamities that were covered in beautiful myths, myths that worked in part because people wanted individual suffering and death to have meaning. Collectivization was said, in retrospect, to have been necessary for victory in war, and victory in war was taken to demonstrate the legitimacy of the system as such.

When we confront, today, the myth of the Great Fatherland War and of Stalin as a good manager, we are hearing not the echoes of the events themselves, but of the memory campaign of the 1970s.

In the towns of the western Soviet Union that Alexievich knew best, urban life was not simply a novelty for some, but a novelty for almost everyone, since prewar urban classes had been destroyed by war, Holocaust, and deportation
Minsk was (and remains) a capital of Soviet nostalgia, where the straw of wartime suffering is spun into the gold of political meaning. No Soviet republic suffered more from the war than Belarus, and its partisans and its "hero cities" became the loci of the cult of remembrance.

She also very quickly explained that the fault lay not with one man but with the experiences of Soviet generations, now reworked for new wars. When she listed the fake descriptions of events in Ukraine in the Russian media, she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are.""

This is from an Israeli site


https://www.google.ch/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/1.780819

Speaking on Channel 2's "Meet the Press," Omer said: "The government has come and taken control of a public broadcasting agency, and the prime minister has decided that he'll appoint the anchors and the editors and the reporters."



"We have become Turkey or Russia," the broadcasting corporation chairman added.0 "

Israel will never get better. Something awful will happen to it.

Poland suffered horrifically during WW2. How do explain them not becoming c***ts?
Good question.
The Polish govt is also authoritarian and paranoid . The twin brother of the president died in a plane crash and the president says it was a conspiracy  The justice system is not up to EU standards.  MeDia are muzzled and there is a huGE controversy over a museum of the Holocaust and what is avceptable as history. Anyone who says Poles killed Jews is a traitor say the Government. Poland is not much better.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: trileacman on December 08, 2017, 10:16:32 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 08, 2017, 06:47:11 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 07, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
I went to Palestine 18 years ago. I thought Israel was interested in peace. It took me years to figure out why it isn't. 
When a problem is never resolved you have to understand what is driving it.

Israel is fucked with Holocaust trauma. You cannot move to another part of the world after a genocide and expect kids to grow up normal.

I was reading an article about Svetlana Alexievich who won the 2015 Literature Nobel . There is a reason Israelis are vicious c***ts who don't want peace and it goes back to World war 2 and the death zone where the largest numbers of people were murdered. Timothy snyder wrote a book about the region between belarus Poland and Ukraine called bloodlands.  That is the homeland ofthe ashkénazi Jews so people like Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon. 
27 Million soviet citizens died in WW2. That is unimaginable. 

Alexievich writes about the after effects. Russia is fucked with trauma. So is Israel.  Netanyahu is insane like Putin's insane. And they know how to manipulate their people.


http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

"The book touches on topics that were taboo during the Soviet period and have once again been excised from Putin's Russia: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, by which Stalin and Hitler carved up Europe, the executions of deserters and the psychological effects of war for years to come. Her subjects recall sweaty nightmares, grinding teeth, short tempers and an inability to see forests without thinking of twisted bodies in shallow graves.

We thought we'd leave communism behind and everything would turn out fine. But it turns out you can't leave this and become free, because these people don't understand what freedom is."




Ukrainians were blamed for the misery and subjected to harsh requisitions and reprisals that channeled starvation on to their territory, whereas Soviet citizens as a whole were told that collectivization was a grand success hindered only by nationalists and saboteurs.

It was collectivization, along with World War II (known as the "Great Fatherland War"), that created the Soviet Union that people of Alexievich's generation experienced. Both were calamities that were covered in beautiful myths, myths that worked in part because people wanted individual suffering and death to have meaning. Collectivization was said, in retrospect, to have been necessary for victory in war, and victory in war was taken to demonstrate the legitimacy of the system as such.

When we confront, today, the myth of the Great Fatherland War and of Stalin as a good manager, we are hearing not the echoes of the events themselves, but of the memory campaign of the 1970s.

In the towns of the western Soviet Union that Alexievich knew best, urban life was not simply a novelty for some, but a novelty for almost everyone, since prewar urban classes had been destroyed by war, Holocaust, and deportation
Minsk was (and remains) a capital of Soviet nostalgia, where the straw of wartime suffering is spun into the gold of political meaning. No Soviet republic suffered more from the war than Belarus, and its partisans and its "hero cities" became the loci of the cult of remembrance.

She also very quickly explained that the fault lay not with one man but with the experiences of Soviet generations, now reworked for new wars. When she listed the fake descriptions of events in Ukraine in the Russian media, she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are.""

This is from an Israeli site


https://www.google.ch/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/1.780819

Speaking on Channel 2's "Meet the Press," Omer said: "The government has come and taken control of a public broadcasting agency, and the prime minister has decided that he'll appoint the anchors and the editors and the reporters."



"We have become Turkey or Russia," the broadcasting corporation chairman added.0 "

Israel will never get better. Something awful will happen to it.

Poland suffered horrifically during WW2. How do explain them not becoming c***ts?
Good question.
The Polish govt is also authoritarian and paranoid . The twin brother of the president died in a plane crash and the president says it was a conspiracy  The justice system is not up to EU standards.  MeDia are muzzled and there is a huGE controversy over a museum of the Holocaust and what is avceptable as history. Anyone who says Poles killed Jews is a traitor say the Government. Poland is not much better.

Poland's is not much better than Israel?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 08, 2017, 10:56:51 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 08, 2017, 10:16:32 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 08, 2017, 06:47:11 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 07, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
I went to Palestine 18 years ago. I thought Israel was interested in peace. It took me years to figure out why it isn't. 
When a problem is never resolved you have to understand what is driving it.

Israel is fucked with Holocaust trauma. You cannot move to another part of the world after a genocide and expect kids to grow up normal.

I was reading an article about Svetlana Alexievich who won the 2015 Literature Nobel . There is a reason Israelis are vicious c***ts who don't want peace and it goes back to World war 2 and the death zone where the largest numbers of people were murdered. Timothy snyder wrote a book about the region between belarus Poland and Ukraine called bloodlands.  That is the homeland ofthe ashkénazi Jews so people like Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon. 
27 Million soviet citizens died in WW2. That is unimaginable. 

Alexievich writes about the after effects. Russia is fucked with trauma. So is Israel.  Netanyahu is insane like Putin's insane. And they know how to manipulate their people.


http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

"The book touches on topics that were taboo during the Soviet period and have once again been excised from Putin's Russia: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, by which Stalin and Hitler carved up Europe, the executions of deserters and the psychological effects of war for years to come. Her subjects recall sweaty nightmares, grinding teeth, short tempers and an inability to see forests without thinking of twisted bodies in shallow graves.

We thought we'd leave communism behind and everything would turn out fine. But it turns out you can't leave this and become free, because these people don't understand what freedom is."




Ukrainians were blamed for the misery and subjected to harsh requisitions and reprisals that channeled starvation on to their territory, whereas Soviet citizens as a whole were told that collectivization was a grand success hindered only by nationalists and saboteurs.

It was collectivization, along with World War II (known as the "Great Fatherland War"), that created the Soviet Union that people of Alexievich's generation experienced. Both were calamities that were covered in beautiful myths, myths that worked in part because people wanted individual suffering and death to have meaning. Collectivization was said, in retrospect, to have been necessary for victory in war, and victory in war was taken to demonstrate the legitimacy of the system as such.

When we confront, today, the myth of the Great Fatherland War and of Stalin as a good manager, we are hearing not the echoes of the events themselves, but of the memory campaign of the 1970s.

In the towns of the western Soviet Union that Alexievich knew best, urban life was not simply a novelty for some, but a novelty for almost everyone, since prewar urban classes had been destroyed by war, Holocaust, and deportation
Minsk was (and remains) a capital of Soviet nostalgia, where the straw of wartime suffering is spun into the gold of political meaning. No Soviet republic suffered more from the war than Belarus, and its partisans and its "hero cities" became the loci of the cult of remembrance.

She also very quickly explained that the fault lay not with one man but with the experiences of Soviet generations, now reworked for new wars. When she listed the fake descriptions of events in Ukraine in the Russian media, she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are.""

This is from an Israeli site


https://www.google.ch/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/1.780819

Speaking on Channel 2's "Meet the Press," Omer said: "The government has come and taken control of a public broadcasting agency, and the prime minister has decided that he'll appoint the anchors and the editors and the reporters."



"We have become Turkey or Russia," the broadcasting corporation chairman added.0 "

Israel will never get better. Something awful will happen to it.

Poland suffered horrifically during WW2. How do explain them not becoming c***ts?
Good question.
The Polish govt is also authoritarian and paranoid . The twin brother of the president died in a plane crash and the president says it was a conspiracy  The justice system is not up to EU standards.  MeDia are muzzled and there is a huGE controversy over a museum of the Holocaust and what is avceptable as history. Anyone who says Poles killed Jews is a traitor say the Government. Poland is not much better.

Poland's is not much better than Israel?
They all have authoritarian and paranoid leaders. So it's not ideal.
Ireland did very well to stay out of WW2.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 08, 2017, 04:27:21 PM
Quote from: trileacman on December 07, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2017, 08:36:11 PM
I went to Palestine 18 years ago. I thought Israel was interested in peace. It took me years to figure out why it isn't. 
When a problem is never resolved you have to understand what is driving it.

Israel is fucked with Holocaust trauma. You cannot move to another part of the world after a genocide and expect kids to grow up normal.

I was reading an article about Svetlana Alexievich who won the 2015 Literature Nobel . There is a reason Israelis are vicious c***ts who don't want peace and it goes back to World war 2 and the death zone where the largest numbers of people were murdered. Timothy snyder wrote a book about the region between belarus Poland and Ukraine called bloodlands.  That is the homeland ofthe ashkénazi Jews so people like Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon. 
27 Million soviet citizens died in WW2. That is unimaginable. 

Alexievich writes about the after effects. Russia is fucked with trauma. So is Israel.  Netanyahu is insane like Putin's insane. And they know how to manipulate their people.


http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

"The book touches on topics that were taboo during the Soviet period and have once again been excised from Putin's Russia: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, by which Stalin and Hitler carved up Europe, the executions of deserters and the psychological effects of war for years to come. Her subjects recall sweaty nightmares, grinding teeth, short tempers and an inability to see forests without thinking of twisted bodies in shallow graves.

We thought we'd leave communism behind and everything would turn out fine. But it turns out you can't leave this and become free, because these people don't understand what freedom is."




Ukrainians were blamed for the misery and subjected to harsh requisitions and reprisals that channeled starvation on to their territory, whereas Soviet citizens as a whole were told that collectivization was a grand success hindered only by nationalists and saboteurs.

It was collectivization, along with World War II (known as the "Great Fatherland War"), that created the Soviet Union that people of Alexievich's generation experienced. Both were calamities that were covered in beautiful myths, myths that worked in part because people wanted individual suffering and death to have meaning. Collectivization was said, in retrospect, to have been necessary for victory in war, and victory in war was taken to demonstrate the legitimacy of the system as such.

When we confront, today, the myth of the Great Fatherland War and of Stalin as a good manager, we are hearing not the echoes of the events themselves, but of the memory campaign of the 1970s.

In the towns of the western Soviet Union that Alexievich knew best, urban life was not simply a novelty for some, but a novelty for almost everyone, since prewar urban classes had been destroyed by war, Holocaust, and deportation
Minsk was (and remains) a capital of Soviet nostalgia, where the straw of wartime suffering is spun into the gold of political meaning. No Soviet republic suffered more from the war than Belarus, and its partisans and its "hero cities" became the loci of the cult of remembrance.

She also very quickly explained that the fault lay not with one man but with the experiences of Soviet generations, now reworked for new wars. When she listed the fake descriptions of events in Ukraine in the Russian media, she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are.""

This is from an Israeli site


https://www.google.ch/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/1.780819

Speaking on Channel 2's "Meet the Press," Omer said: "The government has come and taken control of a public broadcasting agency, and the prime minister has decided that he'll appoint the anchors and the editors and the reporters."



"We have become Turkey or Russia," the broadcasting corporation chairman added.0 "

Israel will never get better. Something awful will happen to it.

Poland suffered horrifically during WW2. How do explain them not becoming c***ts?

You obviously havent studied Polish history.
Polish Communists turned on their fellow countrymen on the orders of Moscow, locked up anyone who questioned the Moscow version of the Katyn Wood massacres, continued a campaign of harassment against democrats throughout the Cold War. Right wing Polish groups target Jews,homosexuals etc.IPolush governments want to dismantle many of the civil protections offered by E.U. membership. It would appear that Poland is not short of c***ts
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 08:20:56 PM
A bad day in Palestine in now continuing into the night.

Today in Gaza a man in his 30s was killed by an Israeli sniper, and several were injured.

In the West Bank hundreds were injured and arrested in protests at Trump's decision.

Then inside the past hour, Israeli/US jets pounded northern Gaza and one man was killed.

25 others were also injued by the airstrikes, including children.

Inside the past 10 minutes, a Palestinian resistance group fired a rocket that has landed on the road in Sedrot.

No one was injured, but you can be sure the Zionists will be back with more bombs to drop on the worlds largest prison.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 09:09:05 PM
Willy Frazier adds his tuppence worth 

https://www.facebook.com/240233392978809/videos/546759618992850/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: OgraAnDun on December 08, 2017, 09:52:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 09:09:05 PM
Willy Frazier adds his tuppence worth 

https://www.facebook.com/240233392978809/videos/546759618992850/

Don't think my intellectual capacity would stretch to comprehend the musings of such a well respected expert on international affairs, but I'm just wondering if "the IRA in south Armagh" got a mention?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
No, the dissidents got a good mention.......

He also said that Trump would have no problem sending over a nuke if we didn't sort our problems out......

If you don't have time, go to 2 30....

His views on Jerusalem, Gods people, and Trump are somewhat enlightening.

Fantastic entertainment on a Friday night if you have had a few drinks and need a laugh.....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Dash83 on December 08, 2017, 10:39:17 PM
Who would have thought Trump would be so hard to pronounce. Trumpfff...

Willy never sounds like he's all there but even by his standards he sounded like he was steaming
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: OgraAnDun on December 08, 2017, 10:59:42 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
No, the dissidents got a good mention.......

He also said that Trump would have no problem sending over a nuke if we didn't sort our problems out......

If you don't have time, go to 2 30....

His views on Jerusalem, Gods people, and Trump are somewhat enlightening.

Fantastic entertainment on a Friday night if you have had a few drinks and need a laugh.....

Got to about 1:30 and had to turn it off. Asking where it leaves the peace process if dissidents attack the border posts - believe it or not Wullie, that's what a lot of the discussion has been about lately, that's sort of the point. How this man rose to prominence (even if it is just in his own land of one sided victims and his FB page) is beyond my understanding.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 08, 2017, 10:59:42 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
No, the dissidents got a good mention.......

He also said that Trump would have no problem sending over a nuke if we didn't sort our problems out......

If you don't have time, go to 2 30....

His views on Jerusalem, Gods people, and Trump are somewhat enlightening.

Fantastic entertainment on a Friday night if you have had a few drinks and need a laugh.....

Got to about 1:30 and had to turn it off. Asking where it leaves the peace process if dissidents attack the border posts - believe it or not Wullie, that's what a lot of the discussion has been about lately, that's sort of the point. How this man rose to prominence (even if it is just in his own land of one sided victims and his FB page) is beyond my understanding.

Ahhh, you have to go to 2 30 for the real entertainment......
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 11:03:56 PM
Quote from: hardstation on December 08, 2017, 10:40:19 PM
Quote from: Dash83 on December 08, 2017, 10:39:17 PM
Who would have thought Trump would be so hard to pronounce. Trumpfff...

Willy never sounds like he's all there but even by his standards he sounded like he was steaming
Loads of people from here say Trumph.

As do Bagatelle   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HLGEARa8xk
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: OgraAnDun on December 08, 2017, 11:04:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 08, 2017, 10:59:42 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
No, the dissidents got a good mention.......

He also said that Trump would have no problem sending over a nuke if we didn't sort our problems out......

If you don't have time, go to 2 30....

His views on Jerusalem, Gods people, and Trump are somewhat enlightening.

Fantastic entertainment on a Friday night if you have had a few drinks and need a laugh.....

Got to about 1:30 and had to turn it off. Asking where it leaves the peace process if dissidents attack the border posts - believe it or not Wullie, that's what a lot of the discussion has been about lately, that's sort of the point. How this man rose to prominence (even if it is just in his own land of one sided victims and his FB page) is beyond my understanding.

Ahhh, you have to go to 2 30 for the real entertainment......

Glad I went back to it!  ;D Might be the time to start building the nuclear shelter then. He should also be converting to Judaism if they're his views.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 11:25:04 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 08, 2017, 11:04:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 08, 2017, 10:59:42 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
No, the dissidents got a good mention.......

He also said that Trump would have no problem sending over a nuke if we didn't sort our problems out......

If you don't have time, go to 2 30....

His views on Jerusalem, Gods people, and Trump are somewhat enlightening.

Fantastic entertainment on a Friday night if you have had a few drinks and need a laugh.....

Got to about 1:30 and had to turn it off. Asking where it leaves the peace process if dissidents attack the border posts - believe it or not Wullie, that's what a lot of the discussion has been about lately, that's sort of the point. How this man rose to prominence (even if it is just in his own land of one sided victims and his FB page) is beyond my understanding.

Ahhh, you have to go to 2 30 for the real entertainment......

Glad I went back to it!  ;D Might be the time to start building the nuclear shelter then. He should also be converting to Judaism if they're his views.

I had a mad yarn with him one day at the weekly flegger protest at City Hall. 

When he started to talk about Palestinian terrorists, I explained with facts that Jewish terror groups killed British troops than Palestinians. 91 dead at the King David Hotel, letter bombs to London, etc......

He was easy wound up and kept saying all Palestinians were terrorists.

I got him good when he said Turkey only send terrorists to Ireland. When I asked him to name one, he stumbled.
So I says, while your stumbling willy, let me tell you about the muslim nation of Turkey sending 5 ships loads of aid to
Ireland during the famine that killed people from all walks of life, and how the British stopped them from docking in Belfast.....

He replied well, they're all terrorists there now, and walked off with his union jack fluttering in the breeze.

The breeze also flowed freely through one ear and out the other such is the absence of a brain in Willys head.....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2017, 05:07:56 AM
Trump made the decision for his evangelical Base.  They believe in the Rapture which is when Jesus will return and hoover up all the believers into heaven from a site in Jerusalem which has to be under Jewish rule according to Scripture . Jews will not be allowed into heaven. There will be signs of the end of the world such as tornados and flooding which is why Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate accord.  If climate change is dealt with the rapture will be postponed.
God bless America
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Dash83 on December 09, 2017, 11:14:41 AM
Anyone else listen to talkback the other day when Charlie Wolf actually said that the greatest friend of the Palestinian people is Israel. I couldn't believe what I heard. I Can't remember anyone challenging him on it either
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 09, 2017, 04:52:23 PM
Quote from: Dash83 on December 09, 2017, 11:14:41 AM
Anyone else listen to talkback the other day when Charlie Wolf actually said that the greatest friend of the Palestinian people is Israel. I couldn't believe what I heard. I Can't remember anyone challenging him on it either

I nearly crashed when I heard him say that, and I was disappointed that Patrick Corrigan didn't challenge him on it.

I called in at the start and they didn't put me on, and towards the end I called in and complained that they had 2 Israeli
commentators on, along with Charlie Wolf and they didn't have a single Palestinian voice to express a view.

So much for balance with the BBC...

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Gmac on December 09, 2017, 05:48:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2017, 05:07:56 AM
Trump made the decision for his evangelical Base.  They believe in the Rapture which is when Jesus will return and hoover up all the believers into heaven from a site in Jerusalem which has to be under Jewish rule according to Scripture . Jews will not be allowed into heaven. There will be signs of the end of the world such as tornados and flooding which is why Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate accord.  If climate change is dealt with the rapture will be postponed.
God bless America
do u really believe that bullshit
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2017, 05:53:51 PM
Quote from: Gmac on December 09, 2017, 05:48:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2017, 05:07:56 AM
Trump made the decision for his evangelical Base.  They believe in the Rapture which is when Jesus will return and hoover up all the believers into heaven from a site in Jerusalem which has to be under Jewish rule according to Scripture . Jews will not be allowed into heaven. There will be signs of the end of the world such as tornados and flooding which is why Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate accord.  If climate change is dealt with the rapture will be postponed.
God bless America
do u really believe that bullshit
There is no rational basis on which to deny thé reality of climate change. Will it spare Indiana?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Syferus on December 09, 2017, 06:37:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2017, 05:53:51 PM
Quote from: Gmac on December 09, 2017, 05:48:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2017, 05:07:56 AM
Trump made the decision for his evangelical Base.  They believe in the Rapture which is when Jesus will return and hoover up all the believers into heaven from a site in Jerusalem which has to be under Jewish rule according to Scripture . Jews will not be allowed into heaven. There will be signs of the end of the world such as tornados and flooding which is why Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate accord.  If climate change is dealt with the rapture will be postponed.
God bless America
do u really believe that bullshit
There is no rational basis on which to deny thé reality of climate change. Will it spare Indiana?

Cash is a very fûcking rational reason.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 09, 2017, 08:15:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 08, 2017, 08:20:56 PM
A bad day in Palestine in now continuing into the night.

Today in Gaza a man in his 30s was killed by an Israeli sniper, and several were injured.

In the West Bank hundreds were injured and arrested in protests at Trump's decision.

Then inside the past hour, Israeli/US jets pounded northern Gaza and one man was killed.

25 others were also injued by the airstrikes, including children.

Inside the past 10 minutes, a Palestinian resistance group fired a rocket that has landed on the road in Sedrot.

No one was injured, but you can be sure the Zionists will be back with more bombs to drop on the worlds largest prison.

The Israelis should just allow the Palestinians to send rockets into Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 09, 2017, 09:10:43 PM
20 odd thugs in uniform and a 15 year old Palestinian. 


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQhAeecUQAAyDe8.jpg:large)

Humiliating a Palestinian with Downs Syndrome

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQjw96qUMAAjkFK.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQjw_hXUEAAuc2T.jpg)

A courageous Palestinian child tells the truth to an occupying soldier..

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/939227895121276931
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Dash83 on December 09, 2017, 10:28:27 PM
I suspect you have more than a slight prejudice in this one avondhu. Even the media was reporting Israeli soldiers using live rounds on Palestinians throwing stones and we know how impartial they are. Not what I would call a proportionate response.

The sooner the international community does more than pay lip service to condemnation of the war crimes and illegal occupation and puts actual pressure of resolving the 2 state solution the better. both sides need to make compromises and things have shifted since 1967.

But while hard line people are in power who believe they have a God given right and are propped up by American then it can only mean continued suffering

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 09:27:57 AM
Quote from: Gmac on December 09, 2017, 05:48:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2017, 05:07:56 AM
Trump made the decision for his evangelical Base.  They believe in the Rapture which is when Jesus will return and hoover up all the believers into heaven from a site in Jerusalem which has to be under Jewish rule according to Scripture . Jews will not be allowed into heaven. There will be signs of the end of the world such as tornados and flooding which is why Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate accord.  If climate change is dealt with the rapture will be postponed.
God bless America
do u really believe that bullshit


This is a good article regarding the Evangelic angle 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jerusalem-donald-trump-israel-capital-decision-reason-why-evangelical-voters-us-fear-a8099321.html

And this 

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201712071059785236-trump-jerusalem-bible-armageddon/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 10, 2017, 02:51:35 PM
Trump can say whatever it wants but it means nothing because Jerusalem and its political status has to reflect the demographic status.  There are limits to what Jewish money can buy.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?

Because its great fun upsetting the useful idiots of the Left on this site
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?

Because its great fun upsetting the useful idiots of the Left on this site

Shame you don't really know what you're talking about tho isn't it
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Main Street on December 10, 2017, 08:19:50 PM
At least those banners are no business of UEFA.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?

Because its great fun upsetting the useful idiots of the Left on this site

Shame you don't really know what you're talking about tho isn't it

ffs you couldn't find Palestine on the map
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on December 10, 2017, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?

Because its great fun upsetting the useful idiots of the Left on this site

Shame you don't really know what you're talking about tho isn't it

ffs you couldn't find Palestine on the map
You really are special.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 10, 2017, 09:13:39 PM
Macron told Netanyahu that Jerusalem is not recognised by France as Israel's capital . Euros are sick of Israel''s shite . The peace process is a sham.

Celtic raised over £100K for Palestinian charities recently

https://youtu.be/uoHVtOS5prU

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on December 10, 2017, 09:24:08 PM
Why is France or the EU entertaining that murdering cnut?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 09:28:31 PM
Quote from: general_lee on December 10, 2017, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?

Because its great fun upsetting the useful idiots of the Left on this site

Shame you don't really know what you're talking about tho isn't it

ffs you couldn't find Palestine on the map
You really are special.
I bet you say that to all the boys
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 09:29:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 10, 2017, 09:24:08 PM
Why is France or the EU entertaining that murdering cnut?

Because he signs the cheques for the arms they supply him
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 11:34:08 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?

Because its great fun upsetting the useful idiots of the Left on this site

Shame you don't really know what you're talking about tho isn't it

ffs you couldn't find Palestine on the map

Give it a rest. You know nothing about me. You just continue to out yourself as a know it all idiot. Unless of course you mean google maps which have already decided Palestine doesn't exist.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 11, 2017, 12:26:13 AM
When it comes to photos been shared on social media showing solidarity with the Palestinians,
nothing comes close to the images from Celtic fans at matches.

That image I shared earlier has been travelling like wildfire across social media all day.

A while back when they flew the flags and got fined, they raised a load of money for 2 good charities
and shamed FIFA

Acts like these are a serious shot in the arm for the Palestinians, and after the week they had, they will love this.

Well done once again to the Celtic fans for their courage and solidarity.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Syferus on December 11, 2017, 12:50:16 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 11:34:08 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?

Because its great fun upsetting the useful idiots of the Left on this site

Shame you don't really know what you're talking about tho isn't it

ffs you couldn't find Palestine on the map

Give it a rest. You know nothing about me. You just continue to out yourself as a know it all idiot. Unless of course you mean google maps which have already decided Palestine doesn't exist.

Google never removed Palestine from the map as was claimed, indeed the only change that did occur was years before the controversy was kicked up - the labelling of locations changing from 'Palestianian territories' to 'Palestine' to bring it into line with United Nations recommendations. Apple Maps doesn't delliniate between Israel and Palestine on the map at all, unlike Google Maps, but of course you wouldn't know that as there wasn't a high profile attempt to drum up controversy about it.

Supporters of the Palestinians have reems of real grievances they can point to so it's incredible that they try to manufacture controversies like this and tank their own credibility in the process. Hardline Israelis would be delighted.

This thread is like a sad parody of the real thing.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 11, 2017, 02:31:58 AM
This thread has been running for 7 years now, and all the facts presented and debated over the years
shows that the end goal of Zionism is to take over all the land that is what is left of Palestine.

Bit by bit they are building new settlements, bulldozing Palestinian houses, filling jails with all before them,
and this is just in the West Bank. In Gaza, they have unleashed 3 deadly attacks that has killed 4,000, injured
over 20,000 and destroyed thousands of homes and infrastructure.

The place will be unlivable inside a few decades

The siege on Gaza is into its 10th year, and there is a generation who are now growing up having seen 3 attacks
and are still locked up in the worlds biggest prison. It's inhumane.

The single reason Israel gets away with their crimes against humanity is all down to the support they get from the USA.
Just like the NRA, practically every politician at every level throughout the USA is in the pocket of Israel.

Their voting records prove as much when it comes to all things Israel.

In the UN, the USA uses it veto when it comes to calling Israel to order.

There is no two state solution, never was, and never will be. 

It's time to realise that and boycott Israel in any way we can.

There should be no more of this entertaining of Israeli delegations in Ireland by those who proclaim to stand by Palestine.

It took international support to help bring us to where we are today in Ireland, and it's up to us to help
in any way we can to pass on that solidarity to the Palestinians. They need all the help they can get right now.

The women who walked out of Dunnes stores made a difference, so lets follow their example.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on December 11, 2017, 09:00:51 AM
Excellent post dixie.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on December 11, 2017, 09:13:21 AM
Quote from: Syferus on December 11, 2017, 12:50:16 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 11:34:08 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 10, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on December 10, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 10, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Celtic fans today......

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24862439_1721027491260994_5223534030185744699_n.jpg?oh=04cf6d3fa80c6c83043f669a7b4a4139&oe=5A903C8C)

I am sure its a major topic of conversation in the bars of the East end of Glasgow

Why are you always such a p***k?

Because its great fun upsetting the useful idiots of the Left on this site

Shame you don't really know what you're talking about tho isn't it

ffs you couldn't find Palestine on the map

Give it a rest. You know nothing about me. You just continue to out yourself as a know it all idiot. Unless of course you mean google maps which have already decided Palestine doesn't exist.

Google never removed Palestine from the map as was claimed, indeed the only change that did occur was years before the controversy was kicked up - the labelling of locations changing from 'Palestianian territories' to 'Palestine' to bring it into line with United Nations recommendations. Apple Maps doesn't delliniate between Israel and Palestine on the map at all, unlike Google Maps, but of course you wouldn't know that as there wasn't a high profile attempt to drum up controversy about it.

Supporters of the Palestinians have reems of real grievances they can point to so it's incredible that they try to manufacture controversies like this and tank their own credibility in the process. Hardline Israelis would be delighted.

This thread is like a sad parody of the real thing.

that will teach me. Should have looked into that more thoroughly. However, google said they never had the word Palestine on the map in the first place.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/12/world/middleeast/google-palestine.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2017, 09:33:35 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 11, 2017, 02:31:58 AM
This thread has been running for 7 years now, and all the facts presented and debated over the years
shows that the end goal of Zionism is to take over all the land that is what is left of Palestine.

Bit by bit they are building new settlements, bulldozing Palestinian houses, filling jails with all before them,
and this is just in the West Bank. In Gaza, they have unleashed 3 deadly attacks that has killed 4,000, injured
over 20,000 and destroyed thousands of homes and infrastructure.

The place will be unlivable inside a few decades

The siege on Gaza is into its 10th year, and there is a generation who are now growing up having seen 3 attacks
and are still locked up in the worlds biggest prison. It's inhumane.

The single reason Israel gets away with their crimes against humanity is all down to the support they get from the USA.
Just like the NRA, practically every politician at every level throughout the USA is in the pocket of Israel.

Their voting records prove as much when it comes to all things Israel.

In the UN, the USA uses it veto when it comes to calling Israel to order.

There is no two state solution, never was, and never will be. 

It's time to realise that and boycott Israel in any way we can.

There should be no more of this entertaining of Israeli delegations in Ireland by those who proclaim to stand by Palestine.

It took international support to help bring us to where we are today in Ireland, and it's up to us to help
in any way we can to pass on that solidarity to the Palestinians. They need all the help they can get right now.

The women who walked out of Dunnes stores made a difference, so lets follow their example.
Zionist money bought US politics. It is tied up with wider corrruption. Eg Senatot Tom Coton from Alabama gets half a million dollars per annum. from AIPAC to vote for Israel .

Zionists use anti semitiSM slurs to shut down debate


They also use the Holocaust. Germany is forced into silence.

It is a f**king mess.

Israelis should have pariah status . Only outside force can change anything.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2017, 09:48:38 AM
Netanyahu is a fruitcake. Europe has more Muslims than Jews.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/11/israels-netanyahu-eu-will-follow-suit-jerusalem-recognise-facts/

Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, has said he expects Europeans to follow US suit in recognising Jerusalem as the country's capital. In a first visit to Brussels by an Israeli head of state in 22 years, Mr Netanyahu told EU leaders on Monday that it was time they "recognised the facts". 

He said President Donald Trump's move,condemned by the Palestinians and by European governments, should be emulated by them.

"It's time that the Palestinians recognise the Jewish state and also recognise the fact that it has a capital. It's called Jerusalem," he said.

"I believe that, even though we don't have an agreement yet, this is what will happen in the future.

"I believe that all, or most, of the European countries will move their embassies to Jerusalem, recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital and engage robustly with us for security, prosperity and peace."

He said the reality of seeing Jerusalem as Israel's capital "doesn't obviate peace, it makes peace possible." 

Federica Mogherini, EU foreign policy chief, said that the bloc would continue to recognise the "international consensus" on Jerusalem.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 11, 2017, 11:50:31 PM
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24991452_10155241878917362_4463539990238878546_n.jpg?oh=20c77ef19091bb6153400190767f242f&oe=5AD39596)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 12, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
2 Palestinians who were travelling on this motorbike earlier today were killed instantly when hit by
an Israeli/US drone strike in Gaza.

Trump has a lot to answer for....... And those who went before him......

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25289389_1727479950658218_5545026585561334052_n.jpg?oh=02bfb55d201e204e0941e6d9472c1172&oe=5AD5DF2A)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 13, 2017, 09:02:19 PM
Update on the above story, and it was not caused by a Drone strike, but rather the men were mishandling explosives,
and a device they were carrying went off on them.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/palestinians-killed-israeli-air-strike-gaza-171212121132015.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2017, 09:57:16 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/13/recep-tayyip-erdogan-unite-muslim-world-trump-east-jerusalem

The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, has formally declared that Palestinians will no longer accept the US as a mediator in the Middle East peace process following Donald Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. 

In his strongest public statement since Trump's announcement last week, Abbas said Palestinians would go to the United Nations security council to seek full membership of the UN while asking the world body to take control of the peace process as Washington was no longer "fit" for the task.

The meeting took place a day after the US secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, suggested that the linked – and equally contentious – move of the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem might not actually take place during Trump's current term in office.

Abbas was speaking at a hastily convened meeting of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) in Istanbul, where members were called upon to recognise a Palestinian state, amid strong condemnations of both the US and Israel.

Quick guideWhat is the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation?Show

"Jerusalem is and will forever be the capital of the Palestinian state," Abbas told delegates. "We do not accept any role of the United States in the political process from now on, because it is completely biased towards Israel."

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The Palestinian president's comments were echoed later in the summit's official closing statement, which declared "East Jerusalem as the capital of the state of Palestine" and invited "all countries to recognise the state of Palestine and East Jerusalem as its occupied capital". 

The statement said the OIC summit viewed Trump's move "as an announcement of the US administration's withdrawal from its role as sponsor of peace" in the Middle East, describing it as legally "null and void" and "a deliberate undermining of all peace efforts" that would give impetus to "extremism and terrorism".

The summit was attended by King Abdullah of Jordan, the Lebanese president, Michel Aoun, the emirs of Qatar and Kuwait, and the Iranian president, Hassan Rouhani, who called on all Muslim nations to unite to defend the rights of Palestinians.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 13, 2017, 11:08:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 13, 2017, 09:02:19 PM
Update on the above story, and it was not caused by a Drone strike, but rather the men were mishandling explosives,
and a device they were carrying went off on them.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/palestinians-killed-israeli-air-strike-gaza-171212121132015.html

But it's Israel's fault for not providing proper explosive handling lesson to the Palestinians.
Hopefully their c**k and balls werent blown off or they will be no use to the 78 virgins
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 15, 2017, 07:48:35 PM
Not content with blowing his legs off in Cast Lead 9 years ago, today Israel finished Ibrahim off with a bullet to the head.

He was one of 4 Palestinians killed today, and hundreds more were injured.
Their depravity knows no bounds.....

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25348447_10156353777381416_1705052136032760778_n.jpg?oh=e85dd25172b59b607a7998389e02f18e&oe=5A8AA4AB)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRGwjvgVQAAwLym.jpg)


(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25353620_10156353773606416_9147751461455744071_n.jpg?oh=26880fbeefcb75a0db4ce548898d997c&oe=5AC91E31)

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25395736_10156353775131416_2437284718219172839_n.jpg?oh=658e250349adfc8ba90d79179fef0f3b&oe=5A8E4286)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRGXD_8VwAE6A_P.jpg:large)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2017, 07:57:05 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/15/mike-pence-holy-land-visit-disarray-jerusalem-recognition
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on December 15, 2017, 08:05:00 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 15, 2017, 07:48:35 PM
Not content with blowing his legs off in Cast Lead 9 years ago, today Israel finished Ibrahim off with a bullet to the head.

He was one of 4 Palestinians killed today, and hundreds more were injured.
Their depravity knows no bounds.....

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25348447_10156353777381416_1705052136032760778_n.jpg?oh=e85dd25172b59b607a7998389e02f18e&oe=5A8AA4AB)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRGwjvgVQAAwLym.jpg)


(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25353620_10156353773606416_9147751461455744071_n.jpg?oh=26880fbeefcb75a0db4ce548898d997c&oe=5AC91E31)

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25395736_10156353775131416_2437284718219172839_n.jpg?oh=658e250349adfc8ba90d79179fef0f3b&oe=5A8E4286)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRGXD_8VwAE6A_P.jpg:large)

Animals.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on December 15, 2017, 09:28:22 PM
Shows you who the realTerrorists are.
No mention on RTÉ news that I heard.
Yet if one Israeli was injured it would be all over the News.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 15, 2017, 10:10:32 PM
This was Ibrahim a few years ago when he received his new motobility scooter from an Irish delegation to Gaza



(http://www.irishfriendsofpalestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/ENW5.png)

The delegation brought with them an electric mobility scooter to donate to former deckhand 26-year-old Ibrahim Abu Thuraya. $1000.00 of the $3500.00 raised by Irish Friends of Palestine to purchase the wheelchair was donated by a Kilkenny man, John Kavanagh, after reading a report on Ibrahim's plight in The Irish Times. Ibrahim had been working on a trawler when it was hit by an Israeli missile in 2008. Eight people onboard were killed while Ibrahim lost both his legs below the hips. He now works cleaning cars on the streets of Gaza.

"When he was given his motorised wheelchair it seemed as if every resident of the refugee camp that Ibrahim calls home came out to see him master the controls of his new machine," Pat smiles. "By the time we were going home he was whizzing around and visiting places he hadn't been to in years."

The four men are in agreement that tighter sanctions on Israel and pressure from the international community are the only ways to force Israel to abide by UN resolutions and genuinely work towards a lasting solution to the conflict. Pat doesn't mince his words:

"World leaders need to stand up and say very clearly: 'This is wrong.'

"What is going on in Palestine is absolutely disgraceful, inhuman and for the world to turn a blind eye is criminal."


http://www.irishfriendsofpalestine.org/2013/04/30/waterford-fishermens-lifeline-to-gazairish-friends-of-palestine/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on December 16, 2017, 01:49:08 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 15, 2017, 09:28:22 PM
Shows you who the realTerrorists are.
No mention on RTÉ news that I heard.
Yet if one Israeli was injured it would be all over the News.

What news do you listen to? It certainly isn't the one rte broadcast
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2017, 06:47:58 PM
Defying Trump, U.N. General Assembly Condemns U.S. Decree on Jerusalem

UNITED NATIONS — A majority of the world's nations delivered a stinging rebuke to the United States on Thursday, denouncing its decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital and ignoring President Trump's threats to retaliate by cutting aid to countries voting against it.

In a collective act of defiance toward Washington, the General Assembly voted 128 to 9, with 35 abstentions, to demand that the United States rescind its Dec. 6 declaration on Jerusalem, the contested holy city.

The resolution is nonbinding and therefore largely symbolic, but the lopsided vote indicated the extent to which the Trump administration's decision to defy a 50-year international consensus on Jerusalem's status has unsettled world politics and contributed to America's diplomatic isolation.

Major allies like Britain, France, Germany and Japan all voted for the resolution, though some allies, like Australia and Canada, abstained.

Carrying out a promise to his base of supporters, Mr. Trump's decision on Jerusalem upended decades of American policy, aggravating an emotional issue that has festered since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, when the Israelis occupied the entire city.

Many Security Council resolutions since then, which have the force of international law, have warned that Jerusalem's status is unresolved, that claims of sovereignty by Israel are invalid and that the issue must be settled in negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians.

Israel denounced Thursday's vote, likening it to a 1975 resolution equating Zionism with racism, a decision that was repealed in 1991 after intensive American lobbying. "It's shameful that this meeting is even taking place," Israel's envoy to the United Nations, Danny Danon, told the body.

The American ambassador, Nikki R. Haley, called the vote "null and void," declaring that "no vote in the United Nations will make any difference" on the decision to move the embassy, which she called "the right thing to do."

Echoing vows by Mr. Trump to keep score, Ms. Haley said, "The United States will remember this day, in which it was singled out for attack in the General Assembly for the very right of exercising our right as a sovereign nation."

"We will remember it when we are called upon once again to make the world's largest contribution to the United Nations," she said. "And we will remember when so many countries come calling on us, as they so often do, to pay even more and to use our influence for their benefit."

The United States Mission to the United Nations quickly issued a statement seeking to portray the outcome as a victory because the vote could have been more lopsided. It cited the 35 abstentions, coupled with 21 delegations that were absent, representing a significant chunk of the total membership of 193.

"While the resolution passed, the vote breakdown tells a different story," the mission said in the statement emailed to journalists. "It's clear that many countries prioritized their relationship with the United States over an unproductive attempt to isolate us for a decision that was our sovereign right to make."

But American Jewish organizations that strongly support Israel saw nothing positive about the outcome of the vote. David Harris, the chief executive of the American Jewish Committee, said he was "dismayed by the overwhelming support of U.N. Member States for the General Assembly resolution condemning U.S. recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital."

"Once again, U.N. member states have chosen to succor Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's misguided strategy of internationalizing the conflict instead of pressing him to negotiate directly with Israel," Mr. Harris said.

Stalwart American allies like France and Britain sought to frame their position as merely reaffirming the Security Council resolutions on Jerusalem dating back to 1967, which are still in force, and to play down the isolation of the United States.

"The resolution adopted today only confirms relevant international law provisions on Jerusalem," said France's ambassador, François Delattre. "This vote must not divide or exclude. It is more important than ever to rally the international community around the agreed parameters of the peace process, and this of course includes the United States, as everyone is aware of its particular role and influence on this issue."

But other diplomats brushed aside what appeared to be a hastily organized pressure campaign by the White House, including last-minute threats by Mr. Trump to cut off aid to countries voting for the resolution.

"History records names, it remembers names — the names of those who stand by what is right and the names of those who speak falsehood," said Riad Malki, the Palestinian foreign minister. "Today we are seekers of rights and peace."

He said that the Palestinians "will not be threatened," and that the United States had insisted on "ignoring the dangerous repercussions of its decision."

The Israeli government was equally defiant. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, speaking at the dedication of a new hospital in the city of Ashdod, declared before the vote that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, whether the U.N. recognizes it or not."

Aside from Israel, the only countries to side with the United States by voting no were Guatemala, Honduras, Togo, the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru and Palau.

The outcome, which many diplomats said privately was a foregone conclusion, deepened Mr. Trump's isolation over the issue, threatened to alienate Arab allies of the United States and may have further complicated prospects for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The vote also reflected resentment toward threats by Mr. Trump and Ms. Haley that any country supporting the resolution risked a cutoff in aid. The willingness of other countries to ignore or play down such threats suggested that they had concluded that Mr. Trump was making them for domestic political reasons. It is also difficult to see how he could make good on a vow to cut financial assistance to important allies like Egypt, Iraq and Jordan.

Nonetheless, the overwhelming rejection of the American shift of position on Jerusalem, on the world's biggest diplomatic stage, was a setback for a president who is still looking for a major foreign achievement after nearly a year on the job.

The General Assembly resolution, drafted by Yemen and Turkey, cited numerous past resolutions on Jerusalem and urged nations to "refrain from the establishment of diplomatic missions." The consensus under international law is that East Jerusalem, occupied by Israel since 1967, should be the future capital of a Palestinian state.

The resolution did not mention the United States by name, but it calls for a "reversal of the negative trends on the ground that are imperiling the two-state solution."

The General Assembly resolution was introduced a few days after a nearly identical resolution in the 15-member Security Council was vetoed by the United States — the lone no vote — an outcome that stoked Mr. Trump's anger.

"All of these nations that take our money and then they vote against us at the Security Council or they vote against us, potentially, at the Assembly, they take hundreds of millions of dollars and even billions of dollars and then they vote against us," Mr. Trump said on Wednesday.

"Well, we're watching those votes," he said. "Let them vote against us; we'll save a lot. We don't care."

On Tuesday Ms. Haley sent an email to General Assembly members, urging them to back the United States on the issue and arguing that Mr. Trump's Jerusalem declaration had not prejudged the outcome of any negotiations.

But she also invoked a threat by Mr. Trump, writing: "The President will be watching this vote carefully and has requested I report back on those countries who voted against us. We will take note of each and every vote on this issue."

It was not the first time Ms. Haley had used this language at the United Nations. Soon after taking her post in January, she said that the United States would back its allies and expected their backing in return. "For those who don't have our back," she added, "we're taking names."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/21/world/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-united-nations.html?emc=edit_na_20171221&nl=breaking-news&nlid=20859908&ref=cta
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on March 30, 2018, 08:13:09 PM
A brutal day in Gaza as 14 Palestinians are killed and over 1,000 injured by Israeli Occupation Forces.

On Land Day, Israeli forces kill 14 Palestinians, injure hundreds more in Gaza

Israeli forces shot dead 14 Palestinians and injured over a 1,000 more along the Gaza border on Friday, as thousands of Palestinians demonstrated in "The Great March of Return" on the 42nd anniversary of Land Day.

The Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza confirmed that 14 Palestinians were killed on Friday. They were identified as:

Mohammad Kamel Najjar
Wahid Nasrallah Abu Samour
Mahmoud Abu Muammar
Mohammad Abu Amro
Amhad Ibrahim Odah
Jihad Farina
Mahmoud Rahmi
Ibrahim Abu Shaer
Abd al-Fattah Bahjat Abd al-Nabi
Abd al-Qader al-Hawajri
Sari Walid Abu Odah
Hamdan Ismail Abu Amsha
Omar Samour
Bader Fayek al-Sabbagh

The ministry added that 1,272 Palestinians were injured. While the majority suffered from severe tear-gas inhalation, tens of Palestinians were injured with live ammunition, some critically.

The ministry called on Palestinians across Gaza to donate blood at hospitals.

Leading up to the march, the Israeli army released a statement saying it had declared the border area along Gaza a "closed military zone," meaning that any Palestinian who got close to the border fence could risk getting shot.

The Israeli army released statements on Twitter describing the protests as "violent riots."

"17,000 Palestinians are rioting in 5 locations along the Gaza Strip security fence. The rioters are rolling burning tires and hurling firebombs & rocks at the security fence & IDF troops, who are responding w riot dispersal means and firing towards main instigators," the statement said.

Despite the Israeli army's claims, Palestinian activists and leaders in the Gaza Strip have maintained that the "March of Return" was organized as a massive non-violent, weeks-long protest advocating for the return of Palestinian refugees to their original homelands in historic Palestine, now present day Israel.

Leading up to Friday, the first official day of the march -- which will continue until the 70th anniversary of the Nakba, or catastrophe, in May -- Palestinians set up tents along the border with Gaza, where protesters plan to stay until the Nakba anniversary.


http://maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=779989
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: red hander on March 30, 2018, 09:03:48 PM
f**king Israeli scumbags
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 30, 2018, 09:21:10 PM
Disgraceful murders by the rogue State.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on March 31, 2018, 03:55:04 PM
Meanwhile their Arab "brothers" are busy trading away with Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on March 31, 2018, 05:41:31 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 31, 2018, 03:55:04 PM
Meanwhile their Arab "brothers" are busy trading away with Israel
Surprised you're not trying to justify the actions of your Israeli heroes
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on March 31, 2018, 08:29:44 PM
Israel never wanted peace. Even if it had a Mandela leading it there would be no justice because the people are not interested. This is why younger US Jews are turning away.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on March 31, 2018, 10:39:28 PM
I'm sure the EU states will start expelling diplomats from this rogue state.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on March 31, 2018, 10:43:24 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 31, 2018, 05:41:31 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 31, 2018, 03:55:04 PM
Meanwhile their Arab "brothers" are busy trading away with Israel
Surprised you're not trying to justify the actions of your Israeli heroes

You couldn't find it on a map
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 01, 2018, 06:09:06 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 31, 2018, 03:55:04 PM
Meanwhile their Arab "brothers" are busy trading away with Israel
What sort of volumes as a % of Israeli GDP?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on April 01, 2018, 07:25:14 AM
Quote from: seafoid on April 01, 2018, 06:09:06 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 31, 2018, 03:55:04 PM
Meanwhile their Arab "brothers" are busy trading away with Israel
What sort of volumes as a % of Israeli GDP?

From my experiences Israeli goods (electronic mostly) are shipped into the EU , rebadged and then shipped into the Middle East.
Israel is propped up by western governments, not just America.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on April 01, 2018, 08:08:05 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 31, 2018, 10:39:28 PM
I'm sure the EU states will start expelling diplomats from this rogue state.

I wouldn't be holding your breath
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 01, 2018, 11:53:16 AM
The Israeli military brutally crushed a protest on the Gaza border led by tens of thousands of Palestinians, killing 15 and injuring 1,400. Journalist Max Blumenthal speaks of Israel's suffocating blockade of the strip and the biased media reporting on the "Great Return March."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=124&v=GE2qWjY4-MM
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on April 01, 2018, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on April 01, 2018, 07:25:14 AM
Quote from: seafoid on April 01, 2018, 06:09:06 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 31, 2018, 03:55:04 PM
Meanwhile their Arab "brothers" are busy trading away with Israel
What sort of volumes as a % of Israeli GDP?

From my experiences Israeli goods (electronic mostly) are shipped into the EU , rebadged and then shipped into the Middle East.
Israel is propped up by western governments, not just America.
And all the anti Israel commentators are happy to support Israel by using Israeli mobile phone tachnology etc
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 02, 2018, 02:05:14 AM
They also gave medals to the soldiers in Derry in 1972.....

"Israel's Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman asserted that there will not be an international into the Gaza border clashes that left at least 16 Palestinians dead and hundreds injured."

"Israeli soldiers did what was necessary. I think all our soldiers deserve a medal," Lieberman told Army Radio Sunday. "As for a commission of inquiry – there won't be one."

https://forward.com/fast-forward/397936/israeli-soldiers-did-what-was-necessary-on-gaza-border-defense-minister/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 02, 2018, 02:27:33 AM
The Israeli army posted a statement on Twitter on Saturday apparently accepting full responsibility for the killings a day earlier of 15 Palestinians as thousands took part in the Great March of Return in Gaza.

The army then quickly deleted the admission – as more evidence of war crimes by its soldiers came to light – but not before a copy was made by the human rights group B'Tselem.

The now-deleted tweet from the official @IDFSpokesperson account stated: "Yesterday we saw 30,000 people; we arrived prepared and with precise reinforcements. Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed."

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-admits-then-deletes-responsibility-gaza-killings
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 04, 2018, 12:39:23 AM
I always find that the Waterford Whispers are the only news site who tell the truth about what is really happening,
in their own satirical way....

"You Got Over Us Killing Kids On A Beach, You'll Get Over This"

In an effort to better explain the killings of at least 18 Palestinians attending a mass protest at the Gaza-Israel border, Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu reminded everyone about how they got over the fact Israeli forces killed some children playing on a beach four years ago.

"Guys, honestly there's no reason to get so worked up about the slaughter of innocent people. Just look how we all moved on from a targeted airstrike on some kids playing on a Gaza beach. Let's save ourselves some time and energy and just skip to the 'getting over it' part," Netanyahu confirmed.

Although Netanyahu was visibly relieved to be taking a break from accusations of corruption and bribery, he also appeared vexed by the insistence in some quarters that Palestinian lives carry value that is on par with other, non-Palestinian human beings.

"You got over us killing kids on a beach, you'll get over this I promise you. 9 kids were blown up as they played football and watched the World Cup on a nearby TV back in 2014. Starting to sound familiar? Yeah? This is the first time you've remembered that in a few years, correct? So all I ask is you do the same for this," Netanyahu added, urging people calling for investigations and inquiries into the latest killings to just relax already.

"Kids, women, the elderly, the innocent, these pesky terms used to humanise our soldier's target practice are helping no one. We've already investigated the next spate of killings and found ourselves not guilty so you can all move on, thank you".

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2018/04/03/you-got-over-us-killing-kids-on-a-beach-youll-get-over-this/?utm_source=WWN_Facebook_Page&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=Social_Link&utm_content=Article


The Onion also had their take on the massacre

Teen On Birthright Trip Hadn't Expected To See So Many Dead Palestinians

JERUSALEM—Saying they were pretty hard to miss during her two-week visit to Israel, teenager Sarah Caplan told reporters Monday that she hadn't expected to see so many dead Palestinians on her Birthright trip.

"My friend Kate who came over last year said she noticed a couple, but this is way more dead Palestinians than I ever imagined," said Caplan, who explained that her tour group was prepared to see a few scattered bodies while driving around the country, but were completely caught off guard when they stumbled on entire groups of dead Palestinians near the Gaza border.

"It was cool to see the Western Wall, and we all got to ride camels in the desert, but we still saw a couple bodies there, too.

At first you think it's just this one-time thing and you don't worry about it, but pretty soon, you realize they are kind of everywhere.

They didn't really mention anything about this during the orientation."

Caplan was also surprised that there were so many people her age in the Israeli Defense Forces killing Palestinians.

https://www.theonion.com/teen-on-birthright-trip-hadn-t-expected-to-see-so-many-1824265633
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on April 05, 2018, 12:42:39 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 02, 2018, 02:27:33 AM
The Israeli army posted a statement on Twitter on Saturday apparently accepting full responsibility for the killings a day earlier of 15 Palestinians as thousands took part in the Great March of Return in Gaza.

The army then quickly deleted the admission – as more evidence of war crimes by its soldiers came to light – but not before a copy was made by the human rights group B'Tselem.

The now-deleted tweet from the official @IDFSpokesperson account stated: "Yesterday we saw 30,000 people; we arrived prepared and with precise reinforcements. Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed."

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-admits-then-deletes-responsibility-gaza-killings

Barely makes a ripple here, think I heard it mentioned briefly on one news report.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on April 05, 2018, 09:24:10 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on April 05, 2018, 12:42:39 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 02, 2018, 02:27:33 AM
The Israeli army posted a statement on Twitter on Saturday apparently accepting full responsibility for the killings a day earlier of 15 Palestinians as thousands took part in the Great March of Return in Gaza.

The army then quickly deleted the admission – as more evidence of war crimes by its soldiers came to light – but not before a copy was made by the human rights group B'Tselem.

The now-deleted tweet from the official @IDFSpokesperson account stated: "Yesterday we saw 30,000 people; we arrived prepared and with precise reinforcements. Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed."

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-admits-then-deletes-responsibility-gaza-killings

Barely makes a ripple here, think I heard it mentioned briefly on one news report.
You do realise there is a Royal Wedding coming up and Vogue Williams has a new hairstyle. The media have more to cover than conflicts in the Middle East
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 06, 2018, 01:23:41 PM
Palestinians in Gaza protest again this Friday near the border.

This time they have lit hundreds of tyres in order to provide a blanket of smoke to obstruct the viwes
of the Israeli snipers who have shot over 800 people, killing 22, in one week.

Live footage here:

https://www.facebook.com/telesurenglish/videos/1330363923773673/?hc_ref=ARRfRPAmH2uWdxFds6B3GIm5HtE6cgym9SGdHydrVlChWuMTBQA8bkOXaK4oD_RrEEk

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29792946_1849233248440417_358049052510310177_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5e0313d3d90d7ff113ebaeca692d75b0&oe=5B35DBDB)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 06, 2018, 02:38:12 PM
Latest reports so far today are 3 killed and 250 injured in Gaza
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2018, 02:46:21 PM
Israelis think Gazans are vermin.
I don't think this is very Jewish.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 10, 2018, 01:43:29 AM
A couple of weeks ago the chief apologist for Israeli crimes, Mark Regev, paid a visit to Belfast to celebrate the life of
Belfast bron Isaac Herzog.

This is a montage of who met Regev, and who are celebrating the life of Herzog....

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30441396_10156409423864314_2726861751782353027_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5cbda68be5241b0e16b322e4985de718&oe=5B2C3DD8)


However, here is a bit of background on Isaac Herzog, the man they are all honoring......

Rabbi Herzog served as Rabbi of Belfast from 1916 to 1919 and was appointed Rabbi of Dublin in 1919. A fluent speaker of the Irish language, he supported the First Dáil and the Irish Republican cause during the Irish War of Independence, and became known as "the Sinn Féin Rabbi".

He went on to serve as Chief Rabbi of Ireland between 1922 and 1936, when he immigrated to Palestine to succeed Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook as Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi upon his death.

The following article is well worth reading for some further background to the man everyone has been celebrating recently......

https://thebrokenelbow.com/2014/01/03/fascinating-links-between-irgun-and-ira/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_HaLevi_Herzog

The Rubber Bandits also brought it up....

https://twitter.com/Rubberbandits/status/889502414897807360


This is Mark Regev justifying the use of chemical weapons in Gaza in '09 on Channel 4 with Jon Snow,
complete with sub titles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMd_js_oQAk&pbjreload=10
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 10, 2018, 11:20:17 PM
This story is priceless.........


Israel Said It Barred Entry to Dublin's Mayor – but He Got in Because They Misspelled His Name

Israel announced on Tuesday that it had barred Dublin Lord Mayor Mícheál Mac Donncha from entering the country - while he was already in the West Bank city of Ramallah and had flown to Tel Aviv.

The announcement, by both the Interior and the Strategic Affairs Ministries, said that Donncha would be denied entry to Israel over his ties to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement.

The Strategic Affairs Ministry, in charge of fighting delegitimation of Israel, said in the statement that the reason for the decision was Donncha's ties with the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign, which promotes boycotts of Israeli companies and international companies who work in Israel.


According to the ministry, the mayor promoted the IPSC's ideas through the city council and publicly expressed support for them. Strategic Affairs Minister Gilad Erdan said that "the policy I set is clear: He who works consistently to boycott Israel will not enter here."

Minutes after Haaretz reported about the announcement, Donncha tweeted that he was already in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

The Interior Ministry confirmed to Haaretz that Donncha had entered the country, initially saying that he must have arrived before the ministry's instruction was delivered.

Later the Interior Ministry admitted that Donncha was able to enter Israel due to the fact that his name was misspelled. A spokesman for Interior Ministry Arye Dery admitted that "we made a mistake at the border crossing."

A source familiar with the details blamed the Strategic Affairs Ministry, saying that the reason for the mishap was that it misspelled Donncha name.

In January, Israel summoned the Irish ambassador in Israel for clarification and to express dissatisfaction in light of a proposed bill in Ireland's national parliament calling for a boycott of Israeli settlements.

Ambassador Alison Kelly said then that her government opposed the legislation, which was subsequently postponed.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-bars-entry-of-dublin-s-mayor-over-bds-ties-1.5990796
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 11, 2018, 02:20:33 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 10, 2018, 11:20:17 PM
This story is priceless.........


Israel Said It Barred Entry to Dublin's Mayor – but He Got in Because They Misspelled His Name

Israel announced on Tuesday that it had barred Dublin Lord Mayor Mícheál Mac Donncha from entering the country - while he was already in the West Bank city of Ramallah and had flown to Tel Aviv.

The announcement, by both the Interior and the Strategic Affairs Ministries, said that Donncha would be denied entry to Israel over his ties to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement.

The Strategic Affairs Ministry, in charge of fighting delegitimation of Israel, said in the statement that the reason for the decision was Donncha's ties with the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign, which promotes boycotts of Israeli companies and international companies who work in Israel.


According to the ministry, the mayor promoted the IPSC's ideas through the city council and publicly expressed support for them. Strategic Affairs Minister Gilad Erdan said that "the policy I set is clear: He who works consistently to boycott Israel will not enter here."

Minutes after Haaretz reported about the announcement, Donncha tweeted that he was already in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

The Interior Ministry confirmed to Haaretz that Donncha had entered the country, initially saying that he must have arrived before the ministry's instruction was delivered.

Later the Interior Ministry admitted that Donncha was able to enter Israel due to the fact that his name was misspelled. A spokesman for Interior Ministry Arye Dery admitted that "we made a mistake at the border crossing."

A source familiar with the details blamed the Strategic Affairs Ministry, saying that the reason for the mishap was that it misspelled Donncha name.

In January, Israel summoned the Irish ambassador in Israel for clarification and to express dissatisfaction in light of a proposed bill in Ireland's national parliament calling for a boycott of Israeli settlements.

Ambassador Alison Kelly said then that her government opposed the legislation, which was subsequently postponed.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-bars-entry-of-dublin-s-mayor-over-bds-ties-1.5990796
Ramallah isn't in Israel....but You have to.go to Israel to get there
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 11, 2018, 07:16:37 PM
Israel is a huge problem for ordinary Jews in Europe

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/07/howard-jacobson-jews-know-what-antisemitism-is-and-what-it-isnt-to-invent-it-would-be-a-sacrilege

But then came Israel. Or rather, as Israel had been there throughout our childhoods, the systematic anathematising of Israel to the point where it became an abomination.

The Israel-loathing that began to consume the left altered my sense of being Jewish in this country

If I think back to moments of Jew-related tension I've experienced in the second half of my life, they have almost all been to do with Israel. 


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/11/traditional-antisemitism-is-back-global-study-finds

The report says: "The rise of leftist antisemitism that supports radical Muslim anti-Israeli attitudes expressed in antisemitic terms such as in the BDS [boycott, divestment and sanctions] and Antifa [militant anti-fascist] movements, and certainly in the UK Labour party led by Jeremy Corbyn." Many Jews in the UK were "losing their traditional political home" as a result of feeling betrayed by Labour, it adds.

Here is the problem

https://youtu.be/lzt3CaXiMEQ
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 12, 2018, 10:50:50 PM
Netanyahu Rips Into Dublin Lord Mayor: 'You Should Be Ashamed of Yourself'

Israel's Foreign Ministry summoned Ireland's Ambassador to Israel Alison Kelly to its office on Thursday after Dublin's lord mayor participated in a conference in the West Bank city of Ramallah. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ripped into him for the event.

On his official Facebook page, Netanyahu wrote "I have one message for the mayor: You should be ashamed of yourself," adding "evidence published" in his book on the Mufti's collaboration with the Nazis during the Holocaust, in reference to images of Haj Amin al-Husseini which were reportedly featured at the West Bank conference.

Israel's anger stemmed from an April decision by the Irish city to support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement and Donncha support for calls to expell Israel's ambassador to Ireland.

The Foreign Ministry claimed the ambassador was summoned over Dublin Lord Mayor Mícheál Mac Donncha participation in the conference as well as what it described as two hostile decisions against Israel this week by the Dublin city council.

The deputy director of the Foreign Ministry's Europe department Rodica Radian-Gordon expressed her "astonishment and deep disappointment" that the mayor chose to participate in a "blatantly anti-Israel event." She added that this was "especially disturbing" because this week Israel commemorates Holocaust Remembrance Day.

"The Israeli government expects an official public response from Ireland with regard to the conduct of both the Dublin city council and the Dublin mayor,  who are waging a campaign of discrimination and hatred against the State of Israel," she added.

On Tuesday, the Dublin mayor was barred from entering the county while he was already in Ramallah after having flown in through Tel Aviv.

The Interior Ministry later admitted Mac Donncha had entered Israel due to a typo. The announcement, by both the interior and the strategic affairs ministries, said Mac Donncha would be denied entry to Israel over his ties to BDS.

In January, Israel summoned the Irish ambassador in Israel for clarification and to express dissatisfaction in light of a proposed bill in Ireland's national parliament calling for a boycott of Israeli settlements.

Ambassador Kelly said then that her government opposed the legislation, which was subsequently postponed


https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-summons-irish-ambassador-for-dublin-mayor-s-visit-to-ramallah-1.5994417
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 12, 2018, 11:23:08 PM
65 people travelling to the same conference were denied entry 

Jerusalem Conference guests denied entry by Israel

At least 65 foreign invitees blocked from participating in meeting in Ramallah organised by the Palestinian Authority.

'There is no Palestine'

Ami Mehl, Israeli ambassador to Ghana, told Ghana's Starr News radio that Mubarak's claims of being denied entry for no reason were "just not true".

"He came without a visa to the border, [and] was asked to wait," Mehl told radio host Naa Dedei Tettey.

"I was in the middle of a conversation with Israeli authorities about his case and when I was notified he had decided to turn back and go back to his hotel in Jordan."

When Tettey mentioned that Mubarak said he had Israeli clearance to visit the West Bank, Mehl said that was a "complete lie".

Mehl then lost his cool after Tettey quoted Mubarak as saying he had permission from Israel to enter the OPT (Occupied Palestinian Territories).

"If you want to talk to me, you will use the terminology I use," he shouted. "There is no OPT; there is no Palestine, there was never a Palestine. It is Israel."

"It's bullsh**, it's propaganda," the Israeli ambassador went on. "[Mubarak] came to Israel without a visa. He is a propaganda machine for the Palestinians, so we do not take him seriously".

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/jerusalem-conference-guests-denied-entry-israel-180412141116195.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on April 13, 2018, 12:17:18 AM
You can't say boo to the rogue State it seems.
They're some shower of narrow minded cnuts.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 13, 2018, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 13, 2018, 12:17:18 AM
You can't say boo to the rogue State it seems.
They're some shower of narrow minded cnuts.
Israel only got going in 1948. They had to invent their own national logic.  Point number one is that there is no such thing as a Palestinian.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on April 13, 2018, 10:32:37 PM
Noa Landau
@noa_landau

Israeli Immigration Authority releases a video of @LordMayorDublin leaving the country this morning & signing a form prohibiting him from returning without permission (which he will probably never receive). And now they have his real name...

https://mobile.twitter.com/noa_landau/status/984699938398289920/video/1

Form he signed

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dapcy-0W4AAEKi-?format=jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 14, 2018, 07:46:04 PM
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/13/when-zionism-rubs-up-against-reality/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on April 16, 2018, 04:04:41 PM
https://www.ncronline.org/news/politics/ncr-today/support-israel-continues-see-widening-partisan-divide

National Catholic Reporter
"Support for Israel continues to see a widening, partisan divide"
Mar 23, 2018 by Ra'fat Al-Dajani

EXCERPTS:
"The results of a recent Pew Research Center poll have revealed some unexpected findings when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, namely a widening partisan divide on the question of whether Americans sympathize more with Israelis or Palestinians on the issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a partisan divide that is the widest at any point since 1978.

"Support for Israel in the broad sense, or as a strategic asset, remains very strong, with the percentage of Republicans, since 2001, sympathizing more with Israel than the Palestinians increasing 29 percentage points, from 50 percent to 79 percent. It is with Democrats and Independents, however, that the drop in sympathy for Israel has been precipitous.

"Among Democrats in general, only 27 percent said they sympathized more with Israel, reflecting a dramatic drop in sympathy for Israel of 11 points among Democrats since 2001, from 38 percent to 27 percent.

"Some other numbers worth examining can be found when support among Democrats is broken down. While moderate and conservative Democrats continue to sympathize more with Israel (35 percent) than the Palestinians (17 percent), that number has dropped 18 points since 2016, from 53 percent to its current 35 percent. The share of liberal Democrats who sympathize more with Israel than the Palestinians has also declined 14 points since 2016, from 33 percent to 19 percent.

"Pro-Israeli leaders and groups have picked up on the danger of sympathy and support for Israel becoming one more point of sharp partisan divide in the increasing, partisan polarization under President Trump, both in Congress and among the American public.

"Nowhere have the alarm bells begun to ring louder on this issue than at the powerful pro-Israel lobbying group, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, where there has been a growing recognition that navigating through the shoals of an ever more polarized political landscape is the new challenge for an organization that has always prioritized bipartisanship.

"AIPAC's leadership recognizes that the pendulum of American politics swings both ways, and that Israel, as an issue, would suffer from being kicked around as a political football. It could well end up becoming one as politically divisive and as politicized as abortion or gun control."

"The Trump presidency has only made this navigation more perilous. On the one hand, Trump has delivered on policies on AIPAC's agenda, such as moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem; pushing Congress to scrap or toughen up the Iran nuclear deal; cutting funds to the Palestinians; and speaking out forcefully against U.N. members who diverge from the U.S. on its Israel policy."

"The unintended consequence for AIPAC of Trump's unabashed support has been the alienation of some Jewish Democrats who once felt at home with the lobby group. A former AIPAC board member described it this way: 'I feel the right has taken over the organization and there is no respect for other opinions ... It's not a place for me anymore.'"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on May 14, 2018, 05:19:44 PM
Absolutely sickening what's gone on in Paletsine today. The US open up their embassy in Jerusalem and the IDF shoot over 2,000 people killing 50 and counting.

Peace is as far away as it's ever been in that region!!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 05:27:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 14, 2018, 05:19:44 PM
Absolutely sickening what's gone on in Paletsine today. The US open up their embassy in Jerusalem and the IDF shoot over 2,000 people killing 50 and counting.

Peace is as far away as it's ever been in that region!!
Trump and Netanyahu are well matched.

Two corrupt, lying, far right, imperialist scumbags.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 14, 2018, 07:18:50 PM
As Israel has moved to the right, so too has its US-based lobbying arm. Stands to reason that support for Israel will fall among Democrats.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2018, 07:24:54 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 14, 2018, 05:19:44 PM
Absolutely sickening what's gone on in Paletsine today. The US open up their embassy in Jerusalem and the IDF shoot over 2,000 people killing 50 and counting.

Peace is as far away as it's ever been in that region!!
The Irish Tïmes had an article where some Jew claimed the embassy move was necessary for peace 
Israel is a lost cause. . So is Judaism.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on May 14, 2018, 07:28:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 14, 2018, 07:24:54 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 14, 2018, 05:19:44 PM
Absolutely sickening what's gone on in Paletsine today. The US open up their embassy in Jerusalem and the IDF shoot over 2,000 people killing 50 and counting.

Peace is as far away as it's ever been in that region!!
The Irish Tïmes had an article where some Jew claimed the embassy move was necessary for peace 
Israel is a lost cause. . So is Judaism.

I know you've been a virulent anti-Semite for years like, but is this somehow en vogue on the board at the minute?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 14, 2018, 07:32:36 PM
The UN no doubt will issue another resolution......that US will veto and Israel ignore....just like all the rest.
The UN are gutless bastards.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 08:03:12 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 14, 2018, 07:18:50 PM
As Israel has moved to the right, so too has its US-based lobbying arm. Stands to reason that support for Israel will fall among Democrats.
The Democrats are completely useless on Israel though and are afraid of losing Jewish support.

Look at Schumer - he's as fanatical as the worst Republican hardline religious nutters.

Channel 4 News had an interview with Israel's ambassador to the UN in the last hour. A more repulsive, horrid, bullying individual it would be hard to imagine.

Trump manages what is on the face of it, a remarkable feat - that of being able to appeal to both the hardline, fanatically pro-Israel evangelicals and conservative Jews, and the blatantly anti-semitic far right, including neo-Nazis.

It's not so remarkable when you realise that followers of each have hardcore extremist ideologies which are effectively based around them being the "chosen people", that others are subhuman, and that they are entitled to get whatever they want by any means necessary.

When hardline pro-Israel supporters are interviewed after an event such as this, they are never able to articulate any rational argument. It's because they have no rational argument, their ideology is entirely based on biblical and other religious nonsense.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2018, 08:33:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2018, 08:03:12 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 14, 2018, 07:18:50 PM
As Israel has moved to the right, so too has its US-based lobbying arm. Stands to reason that support for Israel will fall among Democrats.
The Democrats are completely useless on Israel though and are afraid of losing Jewish support.

Look at Schumer - he's as fanatical as the worst Republican hardline religious nutters.

Channel 4 News had an interview with Israel's ambassador to the UN in the last hour. A more repulsive, horrid, bullying individual it would be hard to imagine.

Trump manages what is on the face of it, a remarkable feat - that of being able to appeal to both the hardline, fanatically pro-Israel evangelicals and conservative Jews, and the blatantly anti-semitic far right, including neo-Nazis.

It's not so remarkable when you realise that followers of each have hardcore extremist ideologies which are effectively based around them being the "chosen people", that others are subhuman, and that they are entitled to get whatever they want by any means necessary.

When hardline pro-Israel supporters are interviewed after an event such as this, they are never able to articulate any rational argument. It's because they have no rational argument, their ideology is entirely based on biblical and other religious nonsense.
Israel.is no longer a bipartisan issue in the US. Black and Latino voters have turned off as Israel has ëmbraced fascism.
Israel is a parasite. 3bn in aid while thousands of Americans are dying of fentanyl poisoning.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2018, 08:42:07 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 14, 2018, 07:28:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 14, 2018, 07:24:54 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 14, 2018, 05:19:44 PM
Absolutely sickening what's gone on in Paletsine today. The US open up their embassy in Jerusalem and the IDF shoot over 2,000 people killing 50 and counting.

Peace is as far away as it's ever been in that region!!
The Irish Tïmes had an article where some Jew claimed the embassy move was necessary for peace 
Israel is a lost cause. . So is Judaism.

I know you've been a virulent anti-Semite for years like, but is this somehow en vogue on the board at the minute?

Israel is a tragedy for Judaism.  The religion is not about murdering civilians. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Wildweasel74 on May 14, 2018, 10:21:23 PM
2400 palestines injured, 55 dead, no word of any Israeli injured, shameful stuff.
:'( :'(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Therealdonald on May 14, 2018, 10:24:27 PM
The Israelis have to be the most despicable crowd of human beings on the planet. This coming from a man who lives and works beside DUP men every day.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 14, 2018, 10:25:50 PM
How's this reported on Fox News?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on May 14, 2018, 10:29:14 PM
They seem untouchable  :(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 14, 2018, 10:43:06 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 14, 2018, 10:25:50 PM
How's this reported on Fox News?

Probably with the old "using children as human shields" trope.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: OgraAnDun on May 14, 2018, 10:45:23 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 14, 2018, 10:43:06 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 14, 2018, 10:25:50 PM
How's this reported on Fox News?

Probably with the old "using children as human shields" trope.

The news article on their website is essentially a list of quotes from the IDF with a token contribution from a Palestinian civil servant who was protesting  thrown in at the end.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 14, 2018, 10:46:23 PM
I actually turned it over.. it's pure madness
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: macdanger2 on May 14, 2018, 11:54:52 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 14, 2018, 10:21:23 PM
2400 palestines injured, 55 dead, no word of any Israeli injured, shameful stuff.
:'( :'(

Jesus, awful stuff and likely nothing to come of it
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 15, 2018, 08:06:55 AM
Reaction......While House blames Hamas🙄
UK and France urges restraint from Israel🙄
Kuwait issues statement condemning violence, at UN....US blocks this😩
South Africa, Turkey withdraw ambassadors to Israel
Turkey also withdraws ambassador from US
That ought to show them😡

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 15, 2018, 08:22:56 AM
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/An_Taoiseach_Enda_Kenny_Expel_the_Israeli_Ambassador_to_Ireland/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 08:32:01 AM
"Even if the fence is breached," warned Israeli military spokesman Jonathan Conricus in advance, "we will be able to protect Israeli civilians from attempts to massacre or kidnap or kill them."

OWC was probably the same in the  1600s
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: OgraAnDun on May 15, 2018, 09:21:24 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 08:32:01 AM
"Even if the fence is breached," warned Israeli military spokesman Jonathan Conricus in advance, "we will be able to protect Israeli civilians from attempts to massacre or kidnap or kill them."

OWC was probably the same in the  1600s

It still is, Henry Reilly was on Twitter this morning to claim that there will be 'wholesale ethnic cleansing' of unionists in a UI because people are complaining about RTE showing the British royal wedding.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 10:41:45 AM
Israel is on a very shaky scraw. This was before the recent massacres

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=20982'%20style='color:#000;

The Real News, Jan. 25/18
"US Bipartisan Support for Israel over Palestinians Is Breaking Down, New Study Shows"
"The bipartisan consensus of support for Israel over the Palestinians is breaking down in the United States.

"A new study by the leading polling agency the Pew Research Center has found that the partisan divide in Americans' sympathies for Israel or the Palestinians is the largest it has been in 40 years.

"Roughly four-fifths of Republicans sympathize more with Israel than the Palestinians, whereas just around one-quarter of Democrats sympathize more with Israel.

"And this partisan divide is growing. Since 2001, the percentage of Democrats who support Israel over the Palestinians has declined from 38% to 27%. In these same 17 years, the percentage of Republicans who support Israel over the Palestinians has increased from 50% to 79%.

"This is a very significant shift. In the past several decades, it has simply been assumed that both major US political parties and their adherents supported Israel. This bipartisan backing continued despite Israel''s systemic discrimination against the Palestinians, its illegal five-decade military occupation, and its expansion of settlements in violation of international law.

"The new Pew study shows Democrats are nearly just as likely to sympathize with the Palestinians as they are with Israel. This has changed rapidly since 2016. The number of self-described liberal Democrats who support Israel over the Palestinians has fallen from 33% to 19% in the past two years. Today, liberal Democrats are almost twice as likely to support the Palestinians.

"The Pew study also shows that young Americans are more likely to sympathize with the Palestinians. And the more highly educated a person is, the less likely they are to support Israel.

"The largest base of religious support for Israel comes from white Evangelical Christians, many of whom have an apocalyptic view of the country.

"Yet while liberal Democrats increasingly support the Palestinians and given Israel's many human rights violations and extremely right-wing and xenophobic government, at the same time, their elected officials are still overwhelmingly pro-Israel."

"This study does show a major shift in popular views among Americans, but politicians are still far from responding to those popular views.

"Pew polling reveals Israel has become a right-wing issue, with 79% of Republicans supporting it compared to just 27% of Democrats"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 11:10:59 AM
Hey GAABoardmod whatever number, any chance that rather than just deleting posts, you could clarify that blatant, disgraceful anti-Semitism won't be tolerated on the board, nor will posters of such?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on May 15, 2018, 11:17:51 AM
Pro-Israeli public support in the US will need boosted.  Who's betting that very soon, we have an attack on US soil (or an embassy somewhere) that is blamed on Hamas?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tiempo on May 15, 2018, 11:54:20 AM
How any Jew can reconcile themselves with what is happening in Gaza at present and the ethnic cleansing and land grab in Palestine over the last century is disgusting. Palestine was not a cold house to Jews while they were in the crosshair of the Nazi killing machine. The role of Britain and America is an outrage too. A sad indictment of humankind and the geopolitical system as a whole.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on May 15, 2018, 11:58:47 AM
So true Tiempo.
The disgraceful oppression and land stealing by the rogue zionist Government of the rogue State of Israel is of course a total copy of what the Brits and US have been doing for 8 and 2 Centuries respectively.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 12:42:38 PM
People are protesting in Gaza because there is a humanitarian catastrophe. The water is undrinkable.   Israel bombed the sewage and electricity plants in 2014 and before. Israel also bombs hospitals. When people go to the border they are shot  .
Israel wants the people of Gaza to leave. They won't.  It is a disaster  . Israel needs sanctions. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on May 15, 2018, 01:21:10 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 15, 2018, 11:17:51 AM
Pro-Israeli public support in the US will need boosted.  Who's betting that very soon, we have an attack on US soil (or an embassy somewhere) that is blamed on Hamas?
Most (All?) Islamist terrorist has its roots in the Saudi version of Sunni Islam, not the Shias.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.

Yeah, that's not what you said at all though, is it?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 03:09:05 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 15, 2018, 01:21:10 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 15, 2018, 11:17:51 AM
Pro-Israeli public support in the US will need boosted.  Who's betting that very soon, we have an attack on US soil (or an embassy somewhere) that is blamed on Hamas?
Most (All?) Islamist terrorist has its roots in the Saudi version of Sunni Islam, not the Shias.
Hamas are Sunni
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.
US Congress support is bought and paid for.
But on the ground things are changing. Israel is not a popular issue like jobs or healthcare.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: HiMucker on May 15, 2018, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.

Yeah, that's not what you said at all though, is it?
What was said?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on May 15, 2018, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.

Yeah, that's not what you said at all though, is it?
What was said?

That the US was owned by "international jewery"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Franko on May 15, 2018, 04:13:19 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on May 15, 2018, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.

Yeah, that's not what you said at all though, is it?
What was said?

That the US was owned by "international jewery"

Replace "jewery" with "pro-Israeli cohort of fcukwits who are predominantly Jewish" and he's probably not far wrong.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: An Watcher on May 15, 2018, 05:02:45 PM
I know it's difficult for the Irish to intervene in any way but for a start they should be rid of the Israeli embassador.  Get him out de fack
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on May 15, 2018, 05:36:10 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on May 15, 2018, 05:02:45 PM
I know it's difficult for the Irish to intervene in any way but for a start they should be rid of the Israeli embassador.  Get him out de fack
x2. Belfast City Council should also make a gesture, perhaps publicly denounce Israel and publicly support BDS movement
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 15, 2018, 06:45:26 PM
Ireland will not kick out the Israeli ambassador because they are spineless. As for NI...more chance of Arlene joining SF
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 15, 2018, 09:25:21 PM
Just watched two videos on my Facebook from someone at the protests that shows two people being murdered in cold blood by the IDF. Neither of the young people, one about 25 the other no older than 14 were doing anything other than standing looking towards the fence. It's a pity I can't share then on here. It makes my blood boil. Shame on all from the island of Ireland who shook hands and had their photos taken with Mark Regev.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 09:32:44 PM
Turkey expelled the Israeli ambassador over the massacre
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on May 15, 2018, 09:38:39 PM
I think south africa did too.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 09:52:07 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 15, 2018, 09:47:42 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 09:46:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 07:18:04 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on May 15, 2018, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.

Yeah, that's not what you said at all though, is it?
What was said?

That the US was owned by "international jewery"

What's wrong with what he said? Thats exactly who owns the US. One only needs to look at the banks etc. They are a horrible religion of people, who wholeheartedly support the annexation that has taken place in Palestine. I'm far from an anti-Semite, but I'll call a spade as I see it. What's going on at the minute is a world joke.

Look at the banks...

Care to elaborate on that?!

The old "I'm not an anti Semite but look at all the Jews owning and running the banks" line. f**king embarrassing stuff.

What's embarassing is the way their shameful treatment of the Palestinan people and how the world let's them away with it....more embarassing is their big noses

Mods?

No difference in mentioning this stereotype and the Sinn Fein/ IRA analogy, the Paddy Jackson trial or the 8th Amendment. Worse and less true material has featured prominently on them threads.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: LeoMc on May 15, 2018, 10:06:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 03:09:05 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 15, 2018, 01:21:10 PM
Quote from: Franko on May 15, 2018, 11:17:51 AM
Pro-Israeli public support in the US will need boosted.  Who's betting that very soon, we have an attack on US soil (or an embassy somewhere) that is blamed on Hamas?
Most (All?) Islamist terrorist has its roots in the Saudi version of Sunni Islam, not the Shias.
Hamas are Sunni
I stand corrected. I was thinking of Hezbollah.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on May 15, 2018, 10:09:16 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 09:52:07 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 15, 2018, 09:47:42 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 09:46:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 07:18:04 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on May 15, 2018, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.

Yeah, that's not what you said at all though, is it?
What was said?

That the US was owned by "international jewery"

What's wrong with what he said? Thats exactly who owns the US. One only needs to look at the banks etc. They are a horrible religion of people, who wholeheartedly support the annexation that has taken place in Palestine. I'm far from an anti-Semite, but I'll call a spade as I see it. What's going on at the minute is a world joke.

Look at the banks...

Care to elaborate on that?!

The old "I'm not an anti Semite but look at all the Jews owning and running the banks" line. f**king embarrassing stuff.

What's embarassing is the way their shameful treatment of the Palestinan people and how the world let's them away with it....more embarassing is their big noses

Mods?

No difference in mentioning this stereotype and the Sinn Fein/ IRA analogy, the Paddy Jackson trial or the 8th Amendment. Worse and less true material has featured prominently on them threads.
Worth noting that not all Jews support what the Israeli government are doing and in fact plenty take to the streets to protest/burn the Star of David etc to demonstrate their disgust.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 10:28:58 PM
Imagine tarring everyone with the same brush. It's almost as if it's happened before, or as if it could lead to terrible conquenses.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Gaaboardmod3 on May 15, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
Enough of the pathetic comments here lads. May I point you all at rule 4 please?

The real Donald will get a ban for those comments and anyone else who cannot distinguish between an entire religion and the actions of the government of Israel will follow him. No more of it please.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 15, 2018, 11:01:58 PM
One thousand, three hundred and forty nine people were hit by live fire yesterday.

It was a massacre.

Of the sixty Palestinians killed, an eight month old child died from gas inhalation.

They will get away with it all as they own practically every elected official in all walks of Governments in the USA.

They can kill who they want, when they want, and in any number they want.

History has shown us that much.

We live in very sad times for humanity not only in Palestine, but across the middle east.

Viva Gaza, Viva Palestina
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 15, 2018, 11:25:03 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 15, 2018, 10:09:16 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 09:52:07 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 15, 2018, 09:47:42 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 09:46:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 07:18:04 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 15, 2018, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on May 15, 2018, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 15, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 15, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
Seeing as the moderators have gone all authoritarian. I'll put my comment another way. The greatest weapon Israel posses is not the nukes at the Dimona plant but United states congress.

Yeah, that's not what you said at all though, is it?
What was said?

That the US was owned by "international jewery"

What's wrong with what he said? Thats exactly who owns the US. One only needs to look at the banks etc. They are a horrible religion of people, who wholeheartedly support the annexation that has taken place in Palestine. I'm far from an anti-Semite, but I'll call a spade as I see it. What's going on at the minute is a world joke.

Look at the banks...

Care to elaborate on that?!

The old "I'm not an anti Semite but look at all the Jews owning and running the banks" line. f**king embarrassing stuff.

What's embarassing is the way their shameful treatment of the Palestinan people and how the world let's them away with it....more embarassing is their big noses

Mods?

No difference in mentioning this stereotype and the Sinn Fein/ IRA analogy, the Paddy Jackson trial or the 8th Amendment. Worse and less true material has featured prominently on them threads.
Worth noting that not all Jews support what the Israeli government are doing and in fact plenty take to the streets to protest/burn the Star of David etc to demonstrate their disgust.

Agreed.  At pretty much every Pro-Palestinian march I've been to or seen photos of, there are orthodox Jews present, holding posters to the effect that the Talmud itself forbids a Jewish state/homeland.  I can't speak to the accuracy of that claim, but they're always there.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on May 15, 2018, 11:57:14 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 15, 2018, 11:01:58 PM
One thousand, three hundred and forty nine people were hit by live fire yesterday.

It was a massacre.

Of the sixty Palestinians killed, an eight month old child died from gas inhalation.

They will get away with it all as they own practically every elected official in all walks of Governments in the USA.

They can kill who they want, when they want, and in any number they want.

History has shown us that much.

We live in very sad times for humanity not only in Palestine, but across the middle east.

Viva Gaza, Viva Palestina
1930s all over again except this time it's the US/Israel who are the c***ts.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 16, 2018, 12:41:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 15, 2018, 11:57:14 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 15, 2018, 11:01:58 PM
One thousand, three hundred and forty nine people were hit by live fire yesterday.

It was a massacre.

Of the sixty Palestinians killed, an eight month old child died from gas inhalation.

They will get away with it all as they own practically every elected official in all walks of Governments in the USA.

They can kill who they want, when they want, and in any number they want.

History has shown us that much.

We live in very sad times for humanity not only in Palestine, but across the middle east.

Viva Gaza, Viva Palestina
1930s all over again except this time it's the US/Israel who are the c***ts.

"U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley walked out of a Security Council meeting on Tuesday when the Palestinian envoy began to speak, just hours after she praised Israel for acting with "restraint" in handling the protests in Gaza."

"The Security Council was holding an emergency meeting to discuss the violence in Gaza. Israeli forces killed at least 62 Palestinians protesting along the border fence on Monday, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza. That number included several children, one of whom was just 8 months old. More than 3,100 others were wounded."

https://thinkprogress.org/nikki-haley-walks-out-of-the-un-3459a4ac3c2e/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:54:58 AM
Trump moved the embassy to please 2 key support groups. Zionists and evangelicals. The evangelicals need a base in Jerusalem from where they can be hoovered up to heaven to meet Jesus when the world ends. No Jews will be allowed into heaven. According to the evangelicals.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on May 16, 2018, 07:10:47 AM
That's a hypocrisy I can't get over. The Christian fundamentalists are some of the most ardent Zionists on earth and at the same time some of the biggest anti-Semites.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 07:49:57 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 16, 2018, 07:10:47 AM
That's a hypocrisy I can't get over. The Christian fundamentalists are some of the most ardent Zionists on earth and at the same time some of the biggest anti-Semites.
Christianity has always been the enemy of Judaism, imo.  The theology supported anti Semites. Things changed a but after WW2 but the evangelicals wouldn't be very progressive.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 09:09:38 AM
Israel is not interested in anything remotely like peace. What they want and are doing with full support of US is create the situation where the Palestinian's have no choice but to fight back.....then that gives them the 'green light' to continue with annihilation of the Palestinian people. Very few of us would have experienced anything like the displacement the Palestinian people have endured. What choices  do the people have? The silence of Arab neighbours, especially KSA, exposes the myth of 'Muslim brotherhood '. The blame lies with US......they have condoned the building of illegal settlements, land grab, and displacement of the Palestinian people, and the veto of any challenge at UN to do something about it.
I despair, so I can only imagine how the Palestinian people feel. During 30+ years of troubles we never experienced anything like it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Dire Ear on May 16, 2018, 09:39:03 AM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 09:09:38 AM
Israel is not interested in anything remotely like peace. What they want and are doing with full support of US is create the situation where the Palestinian's have no choice but to fight back.....then that gives them the 'green light' to continue with annihilation of the Palestinian people. Very few of us would have experienced anything like the displacement the Palestinian people have endured. What choices  do the people have? The silence of Arab neighbours, especially KSA, exposes the myth of 'Muslim brotherhood '. The blame lies with US......they have condoned the building of illegal settlements, land grab, and displacement of the Palestinian people, and the veto of any challenge at UN to do something about it.
I despair, so I can only imagine how the Palestinian people feel. During 30+ years of troubles we never experienced anything like it.
Its the feeling of helplessness, watching the continued torture
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 16, 2018, 09:44:28 AM
Other than getting off your arse and doing something about it, there really is nothing you can do, no lobbying or protest march seems to be making any impact.. but a quick check on the internet and the death toll is far far less than some of the other conflicts that get no headlines, whats so ever!
 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on May 16, 2018, 09:56:10 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 16, 2018, 09:44:28 AM
Other than get of your arse and doing something about it there really is nothing, no lobbying or protest march seems to be making any impact.. but a quick check on the internet and the death toll is far far less than some of the other conflicts that get no headlines whats so ever!

If Syria had murdered 60 people at a peaceful protest I bet the drones and war planes would have been over Damascus before the day was out.

It's the hypocrisy of the US and its spineless allies that gets me.

Time to stop buying Israeli shit and shit from companies set up in Israel;
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 10:51:37 AM
East German border guards killed fewer than 60 people on the border between 1961 and 1989. Israel is responsible for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. It should be paying reparations.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 10:57:19 AM
https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2018/0516/963838-charlie-mcgettigan-calls-for-eurovision-boycott/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 16, 2018, 11:03:30 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 10:57:19 AM
https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2018/0516/963838-charlie-mcgettigan-calls-for-eurovision-boycott/

Lets see if that happens! Which countries will attend?

If we can get the #metoo group mobilised and the all the groups that are managing to get results then who knows...

Get at the sponsors who pay for the Irish singer/s so they are under pressure to go, boycott RTE if they send them anyways
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 01:23:02 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 16, 2018, 12:41:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 15, 2018, 11:57:14 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 15, 2018, 11:01:58 PM
One thousand, three hundred and forty nine people were hit by live fire yesterday.

It was a massacre.

Of the sixty Palestinians killed, an eight month old child died from gas inhalation.

They will get away with it all as they own practically every elected official in all walks of Governments in the USA.

They can kill who they want, when they want, and in any number they want.

History has shown us that much.

We live in very sad times for humanity not only in Palestine, but across the middle east.

Viva Gaza, Viva Palestina
1930s all over again except this time it's the US/Israel who are the c***ts.

"U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley walked out of a Security Council meeting on Tuesday when the Palestinian envoy began to speak, just hours after she praised Israel for acting with "restraint" in handling the protests in Gaza."

"The Security Council was holding an emergency meeting to discuss the violence in Gaza. Israeli forces killed at least 62 Palestinians protesting along the border fence on Monday, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza. That number included several children, one of whom was just 8 months old. More than 3,100 others were wounded."

https://thinkprogress.org/nikki-haley-walks-out-of-the-un-3459a4ac3c2e/
She's walked out on previous occasions. It's a sign of great maturity to leave the room when people you disagree with speak.

Another trick she likes to use is holding up photos of dead children. She didn't use that tactic this time though for some reason.

Any sign of Coveney deporting any Israeli diplomats? Maybe he only does that when there's no clear reason to do it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 02:15:15 PM
Israel has no long term strategy to deal with the Palestinians.  Apartheid will turn US Jews away from Israel.
Sanctions look inévitable. 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: magpie seanie on May 16, 2018, 02:31:55 PM
What's happening is shameful and indefensible. There's no justification for this. It saddens me that our government hasn't sent the Israeli ambassador home. I also feel the election of Trump has emboldened Israel and they know they can do anything and his administration will back them up. Sad times.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 02:42:04 PM
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2018/5/15/ireland-recalls-israel-ambassador-amid-outrage-over-gaza-massacre

Ireland recalls ambassador from Israel........they should also expel the Israeli ambassador in Ireland.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Dire Ear on May 16, 2018, 02:45:12 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0515/963624-israel-reax/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Hardy on May 16, 2018, 04:51:25 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 02:42:04 PM
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2018/5/15/ireland-recalls-israel-ambassador-amid-outrage-over-gaza-massacre

Ireland recalls ambassador from Israel........they should also expel the Israeli ambassador in Ireland.

Ireland has not recalled the ambassador. Or if it has, I can't find another news outlet that knows about it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 05:47:10 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 16, 2018, 04:51:25 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 02:42:04 PM
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2018/5/15/ireland-recalls-israel-ambassador-amid-outrage-over-gaza-massacre

Ireland recalls ambassador from Israel........they should also expel the Israeli ambassador in Ireland.

Ireland has not recalled the ambassador. Or if it has, I can't find another news outlet that knows about it.

Can't find any other link either. It was on Al Jazeera earlier.....on the ticker tape that runs along bottom of screen.
Truth be told I would be surprised if true.....as Irish government has no balls.
They expel a Russian diplomat at the behest of the Brits, but do nothing in relation to murder by Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
There is an EU foreign minister so countries can't go on solo runs.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on May 16, 2018, 06:31:54 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 15, 2018, 09:32:44 PM
Turkey expelled the Israeli ambassador over the massacre

Turkey. That great upholder of human rights. How are the Kurds doing these days?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 07:00:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
There is an EU foreign minister so countries can't go on solo runs.
What do you mean? What can't a EU country do?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 07:50:24 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 07:00:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
There is an EU foreign minister so countries can't go on solo runs.
What do you mean? What can't a EU country do?

Who is he and what's his Twitter account?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 07:50:24 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 07:00:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
There is an EU foreign minister so countries can't go on solo runs.
What do you mean? What can't a EU country do?

Who is he and what's his Twitter account?

The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy is the chief co-ordinator and representative of the Common Foreign and Security Policy within the European Union. The position is currently held by Federica Mogherini.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 07:50:24 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 07:00:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
There is an EU foreign minister so countries can't go on solo runs.
What do you mean? What can't a EU country do?

Who is he and what's his Twitter account?

The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy is the chief co-ordinator and representative of the Common Foreign and Security Policy within the European Union. The position is currently held by Federica Mogherini.

Does that mean that she has the final say on whether a EU country can expel an ambassador?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 08:18:48 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 07:50:24 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 07:00:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
There is an EU foreign minister so countries can't go on solo runs.
What do you mean? What can't a EU country do?

Who is he and what's his Twitter account?

The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy is the chief co-ordinator and representative of the Common Foreign and Security Policy within the European Union. The position is currently held by Federica Mogherini.

Does that mean that she has the final say on whether a EU country can expel an ambassador?
It means in practice ambassadors are not kicked out unless everyone agrees. And the Germans and Dutch are unlikely to face down Israel for historical reasons.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 08:22:27 PM
What about recalling an ambassador? Same rules?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 09:50:55 PM
A bit of background on Nikki Haley

https://www.juancole.com/2018/05/haley-three-palestinian.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 10:20:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 08:18:48 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 07:50:24 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 07:00:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
There is an EU foreign minister so countries can't go on solo runs.
What do you mean? What can't a EU country do?

Who is he and what's his Twitter account?

The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy is the chief co-ordinator and representative of the Common Foreign and Security Policy within the European Union. The position is currently held by Federica Mogherini.

Does that mean that she has the final say on whether a EU country can expel an ambassador?
It means in practice ambassadors are not kicked out unless everyone agrees. And the Germans and Dutch are unlikely to face down Israel for historical reasons.
Not saying you're wrong with the ambassadors, but would this not have come into effect when the Russian diplomats were expelled? Austria didn't expel anyone. Maybe everyone has to agree for anyone to be kicked out but not everyone has to kick someone out if it's agreed? Does that even make sense? ???
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 16, 2018, 11:51:11 PM
And for good measure Israel flew over the Gaza prison camp in the past couple of hours dropping US taxpayers bombs

https://twitter.com/Almeqdad/status/996877528051716096



(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdWjb0KW0AAQ5J8.jpg:large)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on May 17, 2018, 12:08:31 AM
I wonder is there a Palestinian version of Anne Frank writing a diary of her sufferings under the late 20th/21st Century zionist version of the Nazi oppressors?
The remaining civilised Countries in the world need to cut off all contact with the scum State of zionist Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2018, 01:51:23 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 10:20:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 08:18:48 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 16, 2018, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 16, 2018, 07:50:24 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 16, 2018, 07:00:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 16, 2018, 06:02:40 PM
What else would you expect from Fine Gael weasels. Leo:"it's now how we do things" how about f**k off Leo and grow a set
There is an EU foreign minister so countries can't go on solo runs.
What do you mean? What can't a EU country do?

Who is he and what's his Twitter account?

The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy is the chief co-ordinator and representative of the Common Foreign and Security Policy within the European Union. The position is currently held by Federica Mogherini.

Does that mean that she has the final say on whether a EU country can expel an ambassador?
It means in practice ambassadors are not kicked out unless everyone agrees. And the Germans and Dutch are unlikely to face down Israel for historical reasons.
Not saying you're wrong with the ambassadors, but would this not have come into effect when the Russian diplomats were expelled? Austria didn't expel anyone. Maybe everyone has to agree for anyone to be kicked out but not everyone has to kick someone out if it's agreed? Does that even make sense? ???
It's the EU so maybe if France and Germany agree it's as good as everyone agreeing. Israel can always get a free pass from Germany. That's one reason why Israel does whatever it feels like.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 17, 2018, 07:39:45 AM
It's the free pass it gets from US that's the problem. A big bully supporting a smaller bully......but in the end bullies always get what's coming to them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Dire Ear on May 17, 2018, 10:15:41 AM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 17, 2018, 07:39:45 AM
It's the free pass it gets from US that's the problem. A big bully supporting a smaller bully......but in the end bullies always get what's coming to them.
but will they,  really? 
How do you think they'll get what's coming to them?, I genuinely don't see how.
They're just too powerful.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: trailer on May 17, 2018, 11:31:01 AM
Israel is now no better than Nazi Germany with there own open air concentration camp.

'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.'
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 17, 2018, 12:05:07 PM
Quote from: Dire Ear on May 17, 2018, 10:15:41 AM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 17, 2018, 07:39:45 AM
It's the free pass it gets from US that's the problem. A big bully supporting a smaller bully......but in the end bullies always get what's coming to them.
but will they,  really? 
How do you think they'll get what's coming to them?, I genuinely don't see how.
They're just too powerful.


http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_israel_exports.html

Maybe some of the countries who import goods from Israel will do business elsewhere.....I'll not hold my breath.....they sell some amount of cutlery 😳
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on May 17, 2018, 12:17:25 PM
The Jewmerican government under obomber pledged Israhell 38 billion in military aid over a ten year period. I have nothing but admiration for the bravery of the poor occupied and oppressed Palestinians taking them on with sling shots. However desperate their attempts are guerilla war fair would be more advisable.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2018, 12:26:16 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 17, 2018, 07:39:45 AM
It's the free pass it gets from US that's the problem. A big bully supporting a smaller bully......but in the end bullies always get what's coming to them.
The Zionist lobby is in the top 3 in the US with healthcare and guns. It is very wealthy. Politicians are bought off.

140 years ago there was an Irish lobby called Tammany Hall. It too was untouchable. Very rich. Etc. And it collapsed . Zionism will too. Because it has no political Base. There aren't enough Jews for that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 17, 2018, 12:27:58 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 17, 2018, 12:17:25 PM
The Jewmerican government under obomber pledged Israhell 38 billion in military aid over a ten year period. I have nothing but admiration for the bravery of the poor occupied and oppressed Palestinians taking them on with sling shots. However desperate their attempts are guerilla war fair would be more advisable.

How would you get the weapons in? Humanitarian aid can hardly get in.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on May 17, 2018, 12:37:50 PM
All the big money donors are living in USA. There is a massive population of Palestinians living in the States. If hypothetically the Palestinians were Irish I would take one for the team and go after the likes of Aldeson Sheldon, George Soros people of that ilk.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Avondhu star on May 17, 2018, 02:00:52 PM
What are their Arab brothers doing to help the Palestinians? Sweet FA except to use their plight as a propaganda tool to keep their own people subjugated. Or maybe the likes of Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Yemen Syria Egypt are so busy introducing human rights, democracy, equality for women for their own people that they havent time for the Palestinians
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on May 17, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 17, 2018, 02:00:52 PM
What are their Arab brothers doing to help the Palestinians? Sweet FA except to use their plight as a propaganda tool to keep their own people subjugated. Or maybe the likes of Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Yemen Syria Egypt are so busy introducing human rights, democracy, equality for women for their own people that they havent time for the Palestinians

Egypt are being run by a Military dictator who's army is funded to the balls by the good ole US of A.
Democracy didn't get much of a chance there considering the Muslim Brotherhood got elected and you can't be having that neighbouring Palestine.

The Yanks aren't stupid, they've bought off all the major players in the region.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: gallsman on May 17, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on May 17, 2018, 12:37:50 PM
All the big money donors are living in USA. There is a massive population of Palestinians living in the States. If hypothetically the Palestinians were Irish I would take one for the team and go after the likes of Aldeson Sheldon, George Soros people of that ilk.

His name is Sheldon Adelson you utter spanner.

Soros is a highly visible CRITIC of Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2018, 02:37:52 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 17, 2018, 02:00:52 PM
What are their Arab brothers doing to help the Palestinians? Sweet FA except to use their plight as a propaganda tool to keep their own people subjugated. Or maybe the likes of Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Yemen Syria Egypt are so busy introducing human rights, democracy, equality for women for their own people that they havent time for the Palestinians

In 2011 when Mubrak was deposed the Israeli embassy in Cairo was attacked. The Israelis had to ring the americans who rang the Egyptian Army. Ordinary Egyptians hate Israel's cruelty.

there is even a song about it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF6N2OKo8rk
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 17, 2018, 02:55:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 17, 2018, 02:37:52 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 17, 2018, 02:00:52 PM
What are their Arab brothers doing to help the Palestinians? Sweet FA except to use their plight as a propaganda tool to keep their own people subjugated. Or maybe the likes of Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Yemen Syria Egypt are so busy introducing human rights, democracy, equality for women for their own people that they havent time for the Palestinians

In 2011 when Mubrak was deposed the Israeli embassy in Cairo was attacked. The Israelis had to ring the americans who rang the Egyptian Army. Ordinary Egyptians hate Israel's cruelty.

there is even a song about it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF6N2OKo8rk

Ordinary Egyptians are too busy trying to survive.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 18, 2018, 12:28:13 AM
Across Ireland and throughout the world people are coming out to show solidarity with Palestine following the mass slaughter there this week by Israeli Occupation Forces, funded and supported by the USA.

This evening over 100 people gathered in Dungannon to show solidarity with the besieged Palestinians in Gaza, the worlds largest open air prison.

Viva Gaza, Viva Palestina

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32411204_10156514668319314_6346603848232075264_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d7f122e36e58e31fe4a52ecb9bb46f6f&oe=5B986AB9)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2018, 07:28:57 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 18, 2018, 12:28:13 AM
Across Ireland and throughout the world people are coming out to show solidarity with Palestine following the mass slaughter there this week by Israeli Occupation Forces, funded and supported by the USA.

This evening over 100 people gathered in Dungannon to show solidarity with the besieged Palestinians in Gaza, the worlds largest open air prison.

Viva Gaza, Viva Palestina

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32411204_10156514668319314_6346603848232075264_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d7f122e36e58e31fe4a52ecb9bb46f6f&oe=5B986AB9)
fair play to.muintir Thír Eoghain
Ireland and Scotland are cold houses for Israel

https://youtu.be/HKxpJVqrlzY
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: GJL on May 18, 2018, 07:31:11 PM
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/belfast-jew-calls-bid-to-open-book-of-condolence-for-gaza-dead-shameful-36919201.html (https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/belfast-jew-calls-bid-to-open-book-of-condolence-for-gaza-dead-shameful-36919201.html)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on May 18, 2018, 10:54:06 PM
Cnut.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dec on May 19, 2018, 01:57:03 AM
I saw a protest near Times Square in New York today. On one side of the street a couple of hundred pro-Palestinian demonstrators including quite a number of Hasidic Jews. Across the street from them were about 20 or so pro-Israel demonstrators. It lasted at least a couple of hours and between speeches the crowd would break into chants of "Free Free Palestine" to which the pro-Israel lt would respond "Die Die Palestine"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 20, 2018, 10:00:43 AM
Sunday politics at 11 has Mr Regev on. I would encourage anyone with an interest in Palestinian situation to watch.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on May 20, 2018, 11:32:37 AM
'You only use live rounds when you have to' 🙄
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on June 05, 2018, 09:43:43 PM
Argentina have cancelled their game with Israel tomorrow due to political pressure.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 05, 2018, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: Itchy on June 05, 2018, 09:43:43 PM
Argentina have cancelled their game with Israel tomorrow due to political pressure.
Israel sold arms to the junta in Argentina that murdered 8000 Jewish leftwingers
You couldn't make it up
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on June 06, 2018, 10:40:26 AM
Quote from: Itchy on June 05, 2018, 09:43:43 PM
Argentina have cancelled their game with Israel tomorrow due to political pressure.

Israel playing the anti-semitic card;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44378669 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44378669)

Argentina has cancelled a World Cup warm-up match with Israel, apparently under political pressure over Israel's treatment of Palestinians in Gaza.

Striker Gonzalo Higuain told ESPN they had "finally done the right thing".

But Israel's defence minister said it was "too bad" Argentina's footballers did not "withstand the pressure of the Israeli-hating inciters".

"We will not yield before a pack of anti-Semitic terrorist supporters," Avigdor Lierberman tweeted.



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on June 06, 2018, 10:44:23 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on June 06, 2018, 10:40:26 AM
Quote from: Itchy on June 05, 2018, 09:43:43 PM
Argentina have cancelled their game with Israel tomorrow due to political pressure.

Israel playing the anti-semitic card;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44378669 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44378669)

Argentina has cancelled a World Cup warm-up match with Israel, apparently under political pressure over Israel's treatment of Palestinians in Gaza.

Striker Gonzalo Higuain told ESPN they had "finally done the right thing".

But Israel's defence minister said it was "too bad" Argentina's footballers did not "withstand the pressure of the Israeli-hating inciters".

"We will not yield before a pack of anti-Semitic terrorist supporters," Avigdor Lierberman tweeted.

Israel is detested across the world at this stage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiBRAGDGI3c

Apartheid is not Jewish. Neither is murdering unarmed civilians.
Losing this Argentina match is a big deal for Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: magpie seanie on June 07, 2018, 10:12:48 AM
There's a quote allegedly from Messi going around and if it's true then fair play to him.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Minder on June 07, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 07, 2018, 10:12:48 AM
There's a quote allegedly from Messi going around and if it's true then fair play to him.

Yeah it's bullshit
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: magpie seanie on June 07, 2018, 10:17:46 AM
Quote from: Minder on June 07, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 07, 2018, 10:12:48 AM
There's a quote allegedly from Messi going around and if it's true then fair play to him.

Yeah it's bullshit

Ah. I wondered. It seemed a bit strong for him.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Insane Bolt on September 04, 2018, 09:30:22 PM
Some propaganda on BBC2😳
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JoG2 on November 12, 2018, 09:20:08 PM
You'd think by reading the comments section in the journal.ie( I know I know, it's a complete cesspit) on any article relating to Israel and their continued land grab that Ireland was pro-Israel. I take it all these troll accounts are based offices in the USA or somewhere and are funded by pro-Israel lobby groups, the good work from the likes of poster boys Gerard Butler, Pharrell etc...?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on November 13, 2018, 12:32:46 AM
Yep.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/nov/06/troll-armies-social-media-trump-russian (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/nov/06/troll-armies-social-media-trump-russian)



In 2013, the Israeli government revealed that it would also recruit "covert units" however. These would be staffed by a mixture of international supporters and domestic students, whose high intelligence, low income and familiarity with social media make them generally well suited to professional trolling. "We need a unified effort to explain why we have a legal right to be here in Israel," the Knesset member Dov Lipman told the Jerusalem Post. "That is key to defeat the movements pushing to boycott, divest and sanction Israel." Those who signed up would get quick access to government information, and leaders of student groups would also be awarded scholarships.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2018, 06:45:47 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on November 12, 2018, 09:20:08 PM
You'd think by reading the comments section in the journal.ie( I know I know, it's a complete cesspit) on any article relating to Israel and their continued land grab that Ireland was pro-Israel. I take it all these troll accounts are based offices in the USA or somewhere and are funded by pro-Israel lobby groups, the good work from the likes of poster boys Gerard Butler, Pharrell etc...?

It's no replacement for genuine support. The talking points are usually extremist and mendacious.
Israel is very like the Republican Party in the US now. It lives in its own version of reality where apartheid is grand.  I think it's going to get a rude awakening at some stage.


The point of the trolls is to shut down debate about Israel and have people think it is a normal country . They put in big shifts but are undermined by Israeli politicians who are cruel bastards.

https://youtu.be/OMG7Fze6sgQ
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Hound on November 13, 2018, 11:36:38 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on November 12, 2018, 09:20:08 PM
You'd think by reading the comments section in the journal.ie( I know I know, it's a complete cesspit) on any article relating to Israel and their continued land grab that Ireland was pro-Israel. I take it all these troll accounts are based offices in the USA or somewhere and are funded by pro-Israel lobby groups, the good work from the likes of poster boys Gerard Butler, Pharrell etc...?

While any reasonable person would think many of the actions of Israel are abhorrent, it doesn't mean people are necessarily pro-Palestine. Any just because you're not pro-Palestine doesn't mean you are pro-Israel. Both sides well capable of committing atrocities.

Recent article below complaining about Dubs flying Palestinian flags on the Hill:

Dublin's win in the All-Ireland football final was satisfying on many levels. I think they will replicate their success again next season far more easily than their rugby confrères. I am not sure whether Joe Schmidt and Jim Gavin have ever met but they undoubtedly share the same DNA - same approach, same systems, same mental applications and the same work ethic.

Dublin's performances over the course of a match, I feel, are even better than Schmidt's in the sense that they seem to be able to sustain their relentless energy and ability to apply and deal with pressure and eventually burn off their opponents. Dublin are very difficult to overcome or subdue.

So all is well then? Well, yes if you happen to be a Dub. If you come from any of the other 31 counties this situation could go on for quite a while. How many choruses of 'come on yiz boys in blue' can you stomach?

Me? I am happy except for one thing, and it's a shade stronger than just a quibble. I didn't make it to Croker this year but, on a regular basis, the television cameras pick up the Palestinian flags in the mix on Hill 16 at nearly every match.

I figure quite a few Palestinian refugees have settled in this country. I find it difficult to believe, however, that they would have become attached to Gaelic football to the point that they stand on the Hill - or at any other ground - and bring along a Palestinian flag.

The last time I checked, this is a free country and a westernised democracy. We apparently have freedoms to do anything we want - within the law. If you want to fly a flag that is not blue on the Hill or one that most people at the ground wouldn't recognise then go ahead and knock yourself out.

Flags, however, do represent and signify something. They represent somebody or something. Culture, identity and ideology. Most people on the Hill fly a flag with two shades of blue which means they are Dublin people supporting their county in the All-Ireland. Why on earth are people bringing Palestinian flags to Croke Park? Surely flying a flag at a sporting occasion would not really mean that much? I mean, how significant could it be, what could a mere flag represent?

Flags have meaning; they have significance. For anyone to fly a Palestinian flag in this country out of some sense of solidarity with Palestine is up to their conscience, but flying one at a sporting event is a perversity and I strongly object to its continued practice.

As a precursor to what I am about to write, I wish to state that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict comes very far down my list in terms of time that I spend even thinking about it. That situation came about from the greatest upheaval in human history (World War II). The clean-up and solutions to relocation of displaced people was handled badly by the British and Americans and there were inequities and injustice on all sides.

The conflict in the Middle East is virtually intractable and in 500 years there may still be the same litany of human tragedy and continuous atrocity between the two protagonists - one side taking the other into further oblivion and the degeneracy of the human spirit, each as bad as the other. Israel has imposed a constitution of segregation in the region.

I was in Munich last month. It's a beautiful city and, while there, I went to visit the Olympic Stadium, where the 1972 Games were staged.

When the stadium tour was over I felt compelled to cross the bridge and go over to what was the athletes' village but is now just a block of apartments. There is a memorial to the 11 Israeli athletes and one German policeman butchered at the Munich Olympics. The memorial is a little less sombre a place than you would imagine, with a video loop of the when, where and how.

The why? Well, maybe some perspective here would help.

Despite our hazy memories about the world being a much simpler place, it was anything but in 1972. The degree of complexity is such that a short article like this wouldn't even trek into the foothills of an explanation. The world was, as usual, at war with itself. Wars start for many reasons - land, ideology, religion, racism, hatred or despotic ambition. The Palestinians were at it on a number of fronts, but mainly with Israel. The Lebanon and Syria also found themselves in that theatre as well.

But, in the scheme of things, it was small fry. The Vietnam War was at its height. There was war in Cambodia and Laos. There was conflict in South America and Africa. The Hutus and Tutsis were at it in 1972 too - and by 'at it', I mean full-scale genocide with a death toll of well into the hundreds of thousands. In terms of scale, inhumanity or injustice, it made the Middle East look like a picnic, as indeed did Vietnam.

But the Palestinian terrorists chose to engage in a campaign of murder, assassination and bombing all over Europe and, in September 1972, they brought the pitch of human depravity to a new level.

When you are willing to murder or even lose your own life for a cause, then nothing is off limits or sacrosanct. The Olympics, a celebration of humanity, were, as the nice people in the IRA would say, a legitimate target. And the soft target of an Israeli Olympic team in a soft security environment was, well, too obvious and as it proved too tempting. Yasser Arafat sanctioned the attack and one of the worst chapters in the history of sport unfolded in front of a disbelieving and horrified world.

The Israeli team were vulnerable at their complex at 31 Connolly Strasse, behind a risible six-foot steel net fence. Right in the middle of the Games, eight guerrillas from the Black September terror group vaulted the fence with the help of some drunken American athletes. They had murder on their mind.

That week, the waif-like Russian gymnast Olga Korbut had dazzled the world with her grace, style, femininity and joie de vivre as she mesmerised with her spirit and humanity. Days later, murdering scum broke into the Israeli athletes' compound and burst through their dormitory doors. Moshe Weinberg just happened to be in the corridor and the wrestling coach was the first to be ruthlessly dispatched. He was murdered in a hail of bullets as he tried to resist. The previous week he had sworn the Olympic oath in a sea of optimism and human harmony ". . . in the true spirit of sportsmanship, for the glory of sport and the honour of our teams . . ."

Weightlifter Yossef Romano put up stern resistance but an unarmed athlete against murderers armed with machine guns had no chance. Romano too was riddled in a hail of bullets but was still alive. He was castrated by the terrorists and bled out nine hours later. A truly dreadful death for anyone to endure. Romano was a middleweight weightlifter and had not the remotest chance of winning a medal but he was there in the Olympic spirit to take part. The Palestinian terror group let him die slowly in agony.

Just the previous day Mark Spitz, an icon of the 1972 Olympics, a charismatic personality and a winner of seven gold medals in the swimming pool, was presented with his seventh gold medal. His performances were imperious.

Spitz, an American Jew, was one of the greatest Olympians of all time and what a hostage he could have been. He was hurried on a plane to London and then straight home to America.

Who else had these terrorists planned to kill? Who knew what else they had planned?

They took hostages. And before the Israeli Olympians were butchered at the botched rescue attempt at the Furstenfeldbruck airfield, they were subjected to torture and brutalised. This was established at post-mortem. Most of the team had broken bones which were not as a result of the machine gun fire or grenades used to murder them.

Palestinian flags at any sporting event? Kind of incongruous, don't you think?

The whole world was aghast, horrified that anyone could do such a thing in the name of any cause. Condemnation came from all over the world, except from one quarter.

Three of the eight terrorists survived the bloodshed at Furstenfeldbruck airfield and were held in prison in Germany. The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) implicitly told the German government that there would be murders and bombings every week in German cities and towns if the three terrorists were not released. A 'hijack' of a Lufthansa aircraft (a ready-up) precipitated a swift release and all three were returned safe and sound to their homeland.

Any notion that these people had acted as a lone lunatic fringe terror cell operating on their own connivance was dispelled when one and a half million people welcomed them home as heroes. The terrorists, fresh from their despicable acts, were greeted much like successful Olympic athletes who do a lap of honour with their national flag. They had their own Palestinian flag draped across their shoulders - a rich irony. It was a signal of endorsement from the state of Palestine and its people agreeing with their actions.

The main thrust of this piece is that purely, as a sportsperson, I found a line was crossed at the Olympics in 1972. Murdering innocent athletes at any games is unforgivable. I find it reprehensible that anyone would fly a Palestinian flag at any sporting event given what happened and how the Palestinian people supported the actions of those terrorists.

The people who fly these flags at sports events in this country only have recourse to their own conscience for their actions. Having Palestinian flags flown over our own City Hall by elected representatives purporting to represent the views of all the people of Dublin - well that is another matter altogether.

Gaza and the West Bank are ruled by Fatah and Hamas. Effectively those lands are run by terrorist governments that fund and organise murder on a daily basis, including it must be said, their own people. Some of the things Israel gets up to are just as bad. However it is an unspeakable evil when 12-year-old boys, 16-year-old girls and Down syndrome adolescents are sent into crowded streets with bombs attached to their body.

The litany of terrorist attacks by Palestinian state-sponsored bodies goes on to this day. The Ma'alot massacre, where 22 young children were mercilessly executed by Palestinian terrorists and 68 badly injured in their school, is one that stands out.

How can anyone in good conscience fly that flag over our city? Who are these people who hoist these flags in our capital in our name?

At the recent Papal Mass in the Phoenix Park, I was astonished to see yet another Palestinian flag being waved with gusto, presumably by a Christian, unless he or she went just to wave the flag.

That person could not be unaware of the genocide of the Christian people in the Middle East. In Syria, for instance, the Christian population have been practically wiped out. In the 1960s and '70s, Palestine had a strong Christian minority. It is now down to a small percentage. What has happened to them? Where have they gone? Why have they gone? Is it all down to Israeli oppression?

Palestine has become a de facto Muslim state. What about women's rights there? What is it like to be LGBT in Palestine? How did all the Christians attending the Pope's Mass in the Phoenix Park view Palestinian flags being waved maniacally at the event?

Why would somebody bring a Palestinian flag to an event in Ireland being hosted by the leader of the largest Christian sect in the world?

As a sportsperson, I think I have made my position clear. As a citizen of Ireland living in Dublin, a city with a huge housing crisis, a massive drugs problem, a spiralling crime rate, continuous gridlock and a huge infrastructural deficit, is it not ever so slightly bizarre that Dublin city councillors are spending their time, energy and taxpayers' money on a proxy war that is thousands of miles away, and a place that has shown itself capable of appalling acts of terrorism and murder for the last 70 years . . . Or am I missing something?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/neil-francis-after-the-atrocities-of-munich-palestinian-flag-should-not-be-flown-at-any-sporting-arena-37345100.html
 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2018, 11:40:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2018, 11:36:38 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on November 12, 2018, 09:20:08 PM
You'd think by reading the comments section in the journal.ie( I know I know, it's a complete cesspit) on any article relating to Israel and their continued land grab that Ireland was pro-Israel. I take it all these troll accounts are based offices in the USA or somewhere and are funded by pro-Israel lobby groups, the good work from the likes of poster boys Gerard Butler, Pharrell etc...?

While any reasonable person would think many of the actions of Israel are abhorrent, it doesn't mean people are necessarily pro-Palestine. Any just because you're not pro-Palestine doesn't mean you are pro-Israel. Both sides well capable of committing atrocities.

Recent article below complaining about Dubs flying Palestinian flags on the Hill:

Dublin's win in the All-Ireland football final was satisfying on many levels. I think they will replicate their success again next season far more easily than their rugby confrères. I am not sure whether Joe Schmidt and Jim Gavin have ever met but they undoubtedly share the same DNA - same approach, same systems, same mental applications and the same work ethic.

Dublin's performances over the course of a match, I feel, are even better than Schmidt's in the sense that they seem to be able to sustain their relentless energy and ability to apply and deal with pressure and eventually burn off their opponents. Dublin are very difficult to overcome or subdue.

So all is well then? Well, yes if you happen to be a Dub. If you come from any of the other 31 counties this situation could go on for quite a while. How many choruses of 'come on yiz boys in blue' can you stomach?

Me? I am happy except for one thing, and it's a shade stronger than just a quibble. I didn't make it to Croker this year but, on a regular basis, the television cameras pick up the Palestinian flags in the mix on Hill 16 at nearly every match.

I figure quite a few Palestinian refugees have settled in this country. I find it difficult to believe, however, that they would have become attached to Gaelic football to the point that they stand on the Hill - or at any other ground - and bring along a Palestinian flag.

The last time I checked, this is a free country and a westernised democracy. We apparently have freedoms to do anything we want - within the law. If you want to fly a flag that is not blue on the Hill or one that most people at the ground wouldn't recognise then go ahead and knock yourself out.

Flags, however, do represent and signify something. They represent somebody or something. Culture, identity and ideology. Most people on the Hill fly a flag with two shades of blue which means they are Dublin people supporting their county in the All-Ireland. Why on earth are people bringing Palestinian flags to Croke Park? Surely flying a flag at a sporting occasion would not really mean that much? I mean, how significant could it be, what could a mere flag represent?

Flags have meaning; they have significance. For anyone to fly a Palestinian flag in this country out of some sense of solidarity with Palestine is up to their conscience, but flying one at a sporting event is a perversity and I strongly object to its continued practice.

As a precursor to what I am about to write, I wish to state that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict comes very far down my list in terms of time that I spend even thinking about it. That situation came about from the greatest upheaval in human history (World War II). The clean-up and solutions to relocation of displaced people was handled badly by the British and Americans and there were inequities and injustice on all sides.

The conflict in the Middle East is virtually intractable and in 500 years there may still be the same litany of human tragedy and continuous atrocity between the two protagonists - one side taking the other into further oblivion and the degeneracy of the human spirit, each as bad as the other. Israel has imposed a constitution of segregation in the region.

I was in Munich last month. It's a beautiful city and, while there, I went to visit the Olympic Stadium, where the 1972 Games were staged.

When the stadium tour was over I felt compelled to cross the bridge and go over to what was the athletes' village but is now just a block of apartments. There is a memorial to the 11 Israeli athletes and one German policeman butchered at the Munich Olympics. The memorial is a little less sombre a place than you would imagine, with a video loop of the when, where and how.

The why? Well, maybe some perspective here would help.

Despite our hazy memories about the world being a much simpler place, it was anything but in 1972. The degree of complexity is such that a short article like this wouldn't even trek into the foothills of an explanation. The world was, as usual, at war with itself. Wars start for many reasons - land, ideology, religion, racism, hatred or despotic ambition. The Palestinians were at it on a number of fronts, but mainly with Israel. The Lebanon and Syria also found themselves in that theatre as well.

But, in the scheme of things, it was small fry. The Vietnam War was at its height. There was war in Cambodia and Laos. There was conflict in South America and Africa. The Hutus and Tutsis were at it in 1972 too - and by 'at it', I mean full-scale genocide with a death toll of well into the hundreds of thousands. In terms of scale, inhumanity or injustice, it made the Middle East look like a picnic, as indeed did Vietnam.

But the Palestinian terrorists chose to engage in a campaign of murder, assassination and bombing all over Europe and, in September 1972, they brought the pitch of human depravity to a new level.

When you are willing to murder or even lose your own life for a cause, then nothing is off limits or sacrosanct. The Olympics, a celebration of humanity, were, as the nice people in the IRA would say, a legitimate target. And the soft target of an Israeli Olympic team in a soft security environment was, well, too obvious and as it proved too tempting. Yasser Arafat sanctioned the attack and one of the worst chapters in the history of sport unfolded in front of a disbelieving and horrified world.

The Israeli team were vulnerable at their complex at 31 Connolly Strasse, behind a risible six-foot steel net fence. Right in the middle of the Games, eight guerrillas from the Black September terror group vaulted the fence with the help of some drunken American athletes. They had murder on their mind.

That week, the waif-like Russian gymnast Olga Korbut had dazzled the world with her grace, style, femininity and joie de vivre as she mesmerised with her spirit and humanity. Days later, murdering scum broke into the Israeli athletes' compound and burst through their dormitory doors. Moshe Weinberg just happened to be in the corridor and the wrestling coach was the first to be ruthlessly dispatched. He was murdered in a hail of bullets as he tried to resist. The previous week he had sworn the Olympic oath in a sea of optimism and human harmony ". . . in the true spirit of sportsmanship, for the glory of sport and the honour of our teams . . ."

Weightlifter Yossef Romano put up stern resistance but an unarmed athlete against murderers armed with machine guns had no chance. Romano too was riddled in a hail of bullets but was still alive. He was castrated by the terrorists and bled out nine hours later. A truly dreadful death for anyone to endure. Romano was a middleweight weightlifter and had not the remotest chance of winning a medal but he was there in the Olympic spirit to take part. The Palestinian terror group let him die slowly in agony.

Just the previous day Mark Spitz, an icon of the 1972 Olympics, a charismatic personality and a winner of seven gold medals in the swimming pool, was presented with his seventh gold medal. His performances were imperious.

Spitz, an American Jew, was one of the greatest Olympians of all time and what a hostage he could have been. He was hurried on a plane to London and then straight home to America.

Who else had these terrorists planned to kill? Who knew what else they had planned?

They took hostages. And before the Israeli Olympians were butchered at the botched rescue attempt at the Furstenfeldbruck airfield, they were subjected to torture and brutalised. This was established at post-mortem. Most of the team had broken bones which were not as a result of the machine gun fire or grenades used to murder them.

Palestinian flags at any sporting event? Kind of incongruous, don't you think?

The whole world was aghast, horrified that anyone could do such a thing in the name of any cause. Condemnation came from all over the world, except from one quarter.

Three of the eight terrorists survived the bloodshed at Furstenfeldbruck airfield and were held in prison in Germany. The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) implicitly told the German government that there would be murders and bombings every week in German cities and towns if the three terrorists were not released. A 'hijack' of a Lufthansa aircraft (a ready-up) precipitated a swift release and all three were returned safe and sound to their homeland.

Any notion that these people had acted as a lone lunatic fringe terror cell operating on their own connivance was dispelled when one and a half million people welcomed them home as heroes. The terrorists, fresh from their despicable acts, were greeted much like successful Olympic athletes who do a lap of honour with their national flag. They had their own Palestinian flag draped across their shoulders - a rich irony. It was a signal of endorsement from the state of Palestine and its people agreeing with their actions.

The main thrust of this piece is that purely, as a sportsperson, I found a line was crossed at the Olympics in 1972. Murdering innocent athletes at any games is unforgivable. I find it reprehensible that anyone would fly a Palestinian flag at any sporting event given what happened and how the Palestinian people supported the actions of those terrorists.

The people who fly these flags at sports events in this country only have recourse to their own conscience for their actions. Having Palestinian flags flown over our own City Hall by elected representatives purporting to represent the views of all the people of Dublin - well that is another matter altogether.

Gaza and the West Bank are ruled by Fatah and Hamas. Effectively those lands are run by terrorist governments that fund and organise murder on a daily basis, including it must be said, their own people. Some of the things Israel gets up to are just as bad. However it is an unspeakable evil when 12-year-old boys, 16-year-old girls and Down syndrome adolescents are sent into crowded streets with bombs attached to their body.

The litany of terrorist attacks by Palestinian state-sponsored bodies goes on to this day. The Ma'alot massacre, where 22 young children were mercilessly executed by Palestinian terrorists and 68 badly injured in their school, is one that stands out.

How can anyone in good conscience fly that flag over our city? Who are these people who hoist these flags in our capital in our name?

At the recent Papal Mass in the Phoenix Park, I was astonished to see yet another Palestinian flag being waved with gusto, presumably by a Christian, unless he or she went just to wave the flag.

That person could not be unaware of the genocide of the Christian people in the Middle East. In Syria, for instance, the Christian population have been practically wiped out. In the 1960s and '70s, Palestine had a strong Christian minority. It is now down to a small percentage. What has happened to them? Where have they gone? Why have they gone? Is it all down to Israeli oppression?

Palestine has become a de facto Muslim state. What about women's rights there? What is it like to be LGBT in Palestine? How did all the Christians attending the Pope's Mass in the Phoenix Park view Palestinian flags being waved maniacally at the event?

Why would somebody bring a Palestinian flag to an event in Ireland being hosted by the leader of the largest Christian sect in the world?

As a sportsperson, I think I have made my position clear. As a citizen of Ireland living in Dublin, a city with a huge housing crisis, a massive drugs problem, a spiralling crime rate, continuous gridlock and a huge infrastructural deficit, is it not ever so slightly bizarre that Dublin city councillors are spending their time, energy and taxpayers' money on a proxy war that is thousands of miles away, and a place that has shown itself capable of appalling acts of terrorism and murder for the last 70 years . . . Or am I missing something?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/neil-francis-after-the-atrocities-of-munich-palestinian-flag-should-not-be-flown-at-any-sporting-arena-37345100.html

I wonder how many people agree with him
Especially considering Irish history

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on November 13, 2018, 11:47:26 AM
Maybe he should be sent the names of the 1500 or so children of Gaza murdered by Israeli armed terrorists!!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: theticklemister on November 13, 2018, 01:16:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2018, 11:40:54 AM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2018, 11:36:38 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on November 12, 2018, 09:20:08 PM
You'd think by reading the comments section in the journal.ie( I know I know, it's a complete cesspit) on any article relating to Israel and their continued land grab that Ireland was pro-Israel. I take it all these troll accounts are based offices in the USA or somewhere and are funded by pro-Israel lobby groups, the good work from the likes of poster boys Gerard Butler, Pharrell etc...?

While any reasonable person would think many of the actions of Israel are abhorrent, it doesn't mean people are necessarily pro-Palestine. Any just because you're not pro-Palestine doesn't mean you are pro-Israel. Both sides well capable of committing atrocities.

Recent article below complaining about Dubs flying Palestinian flags on the Hill:

Dublin's win in the All-Ireland football final was satisfying on many levels. I think they will replicate their success again next season far more easily than their rugby confrères. I am not sure whether Joe Schmidt and Jim Gavin have ever met but they undoubtedly share the same DNA - same approach, same systems, same mental applications and the same work ethic.

Dublin's performances over the course of a match, I feel, are even better than Schmidt's in the sense that they seem to be able to sustain their relentless energy and ability to apply and deal with pressure and eventually burn off their opponents. Dublin are very difficult to overcome or subdue.

So all is well then? Well, yes if you happen to be a Dub. If you come from any of the other 31 counties this situation could go on for quite a while. How many choruses of 'come on yiz boys in blue' can you stomach?

Me? I am happy except for one thing, and it's a shade stronger than just a quibble. I didn't make it to Croker this year but, on a regular basis, the television cameras pick up the Palestinian flags in the mix on Hill 16 at nearly every match.

I figure quite a few Palestinian refugees have settled in this country. I find it difficult to believe, however, that they would have become attached to Gaelic football to the point that they stand on the Hill - or at any other ground - and bring along a Palestinian flag.

The last time I checked, this is a free country and a westernised democracy. We apparently have freedoms to do anything we want - within the law. If you want to fly a flag that is not blue on the Hill or one that most people at the ground wouldn't recognise then go ahead and knock yourself out.

Flags, however, do represent and signify something. They represent somebody or something. Culture, identity and ideology. Most people on the Hill fly a flag with two shades of blue which means they are Dublin people supporting their county in the All-Ireland. Why on earth are people bringing Palestinian flags to Croke Park? Surely flying a flag at a sporting occasion would not really mean that much? I mean, how significant could it be, what could a mere flag represent?

Flags have meaning; they have significance. For anyone to fly a Palestinian flag in this country out of some sense of solidarity with Palestine is up to their conscience, but flying one at a sporting event is a perversity and I strongly object to its continued practice.

As a precursor to what I am about to write, I wish to state that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict comes very far down my list in terms of time that I spend even thinking about it. That situation came about from the greatest upheaval in human history (World War II). The clean-up and solutions to relocation of displaced people was handled badly by the British and Americans and there were inequities and injustice on all sides.

The conflict in the Middle East is virtually intractable and in 500 years there may still be the same litany of human tragedy and continuous atrocity between the two protagonists - one side taking the other into further oblivion and the degeneracy of the human spirit, each as bad as the other. Israel has imposed a constitution of segregation in the region.

I was in Munich last month. It's a beautiful city and, while there, I went to visit the Olympic Stadium, where the 1972 Games were staged.

When the stadium tour was over I felt compelled to cross the bridge and go over to what was the athletes' village but is now just a block of apartments. There is a memorial to the 11 Israeli athletes and one German policeman butchered at the Munich Olympics. The memorial is a little less sombre a place than you would imagine, with a video loop of the when, where and how.

The why? Well, maybe some perspective here would help.

Despite our hazy memories about the world being a much simpler place, it was anything but in 1972. The degree of complexity is such that a short article like this wouldn't even trek into the foothills of an explanation. The world was, as usual, at war with itself. Wars start for many reasons - land, ideology, religion, racism, hatred or despotic ambition. The Palestinians were at it on a number of fronts, but mainly with Israel. The Lebanon and Syria also found themselves in that theatre as well.

But, in the scheme of things, it was small fry. The Vietnam War was at its height. There was war in Cambodia and Laos. There was conflict in South America and Africa. The Hutus and Tutsis were at it in 1972 too - and by 'at it', I mean full-scale genocide with a death toll of well into the hundreds of thousands. In terms of scale, inhumanity or injustice, it made the Middle East look like a picnic, as indeed did Vietnam.

But the Palestinian terrorists chose to engage in a campaign of murder, assassination and bombing all over Europe and, in September 1972, they brought the pitch of human depravity to a new level.

When you are willing to murder or even lose your own life for a cause, then nothing is off limits or sacrosanct. The Olympics, a celebration of humanity, were, as the nice people in the IRA would say, a legitimate target. And the soft target of an Israeli Olympic team in a soft security environment was, well, too obvious and as it proved too tempting. Yasser Arafat sanctioned the attack and one of the worst chapters in the history of sport unfolded in front of a disbelieving and horrified world.

The Israeli team were vulnerable at their complex at 31 Connolly Strasse, behind a risible six-foot steel net fence. Right in the middle of the Games, eight guerrillas from the Black September terror group vaulted the fence with the help of some drunken American athletes. They had murder on their mind.

That week, the waif-like Russian gymnast Olga Korbut had dazzled the world with her grace, style, femininity and joie de vivre as she mesmerised with her spirit and humanity. Days later, murdering scum broke into the Israeli athletes' compound and burst through their dormitory doors. Moshe Weinberg just happened to be in the corridor and the wrestling coach was the first to be ruthlessly dispatched. He was murdered in a hail of bullets as he tried to resist. The previous week he had sworn the Olympic oath in a sea of optimism and human harmony ". . . in the true spirit of sportsmanship, for the glory of sport and the honour of our teams . . ."

Weightlifter Yossef Romano put up stern resistance but an unarmed athlete against murderers armed with machine guns had no chance. Romano too was riddled in a hail of bullets but was still alive. He was castrated by the terrorists and bled out nine hours later. A truly dreadful death for anyone to endure. Romano was a middleweight weightlifter and had not the remotest chance of winning a medal but he was there in the Olympic spirit to take part. The Palestinian terror group let him die slowly in agony.

Just the previous day Mark Spitz, an icon of the 1972 Olympics, a charismatic personality and a winner of seven gold medals in the swimming pool, was presented with his seventh gold medal. His performances were imperious.

Spitz, an American Jew, was one of the greatest Olympians of all time and what a hostage he could have been. He was hurried on a plane to London and then straight home to America.

Who else had these terrorists planned to kill? Who knew what else they had planned?

They took hostages. And before the Israeli Olympians were butchered at the botched rescue attempt at the Furstenfeldbruck airfield, they were subjected to torture and brutalised. This was established at post-mortem. Most of the team had broken bones which were not as a result of the machine gun fire or grenades used to murder them.

Palestinian flags at any sporting event? Kind of incongruous, don't you think?

The whole world was aghast, horrified that anyone could do such a thing in the name of any cause. Condemnation came from all over the world, except from one quarter.

Three of the eight terrorists survived the bloodshed at Furstenfeldbruck airfield and were held in prison in Germany. The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) implicitly told the German government that there would be murders and bombings every week in German cities and towns if the three terrorists were not released. A 'hijack' of a Lufthansa aircraft (a ready-up) precipitated a swift release and all three were returned safe and sound to their homeland.

Any notion that these people had acted as a lone lunatic fringe terror cell operating on their own connivance was dispelled when one and a half million people welcomed them home as heroes. The terrorists, fresh from their despicable acts, were greeted much like successful Olympic athletes who do a lap of honour with their national flag. They had their own Palestinian flag draped across their shoulders - a rich irony. It was a signal of endorsement from the state of Palestine and its people agreeing with their actions.

The main thrust of this piece is that purely, as a sportsperson, I found a line was crossed at the Olympics in 1972. Murdering innocent athletes at any games is unforgivable. I find it reprehensible that anyone would fly a Palestinian flag at any sporting event given what happened and how the Palestinian people supported the actions of those terrorists.

The people who fly these flags at sports events in this country only have recourse to their own conscience for their actions. Having Palestinian flags flown over our own City Hall by elected representatives purporting to represent the views of all the people of Dublin - well that is another matter altogether.

Gaza and the West Bank are ruled by Fatah and Hamas. Effectively those lands are run by terrorist governments that fund and organise murder on a daily basis, including it must be said, their own people. Some of the things Israel gets up to are just as bad. However it is an unspeakable evil when 12-year-old boys, 16-year-old girls and Down syndrome adolescents are sent into crowded streets with bombs attached to their body.

The litany of terrorist attacks by Palestinian state-sponsored bodies goes on to this day. The Ma'alot massacre, where 22 young children were mercilessly executed by Palestinian terrorists and 68 badly injured in their school, is one that stands out.

How can anyone in good conscience fly that flag over our city? Who are these people who hoist these flags in our capital in our name?

At the recent Papal Mass in the Phoenix Park, I was astonished to see yet another Palestinian flag being waved with gusto, presumably by a Christian, unless he or she went just to wave the flag.

That person could not be unaware of the genocide of the Christian people in the Middle East. In Syria, for instance, the Christian population have been practically wiped out. In the 1960s and '70s, Palestine had a strong Christian minority. It is now down to a small percentage. What has happened to them? Where have they gone? Why have they gone? Is it all down to Israeli oppression?

Palestine has become a de facto Muslim state. What about women's rights there? What is it like to be LGBT in Palestine? How did all the Christians attending the Pope's Mass in the Phoenix Park view Palestinian flags being waved maniacally at the event?

Why would somebody bring a Palestinian flag to an event in Ireland being hosted by the leader of the largest Christian sect in the world?

As a sportsperson, I think I have made my position clear. As a citizen of Ireland living in Dublin, a city with a huge housing crisis, a massive drugs problem, a spiralling crime rate, continuous gridlock and a huge infrastructural deficit, is it not ever so slightly bizarre that Dublin city councillors are spending their time, energy and taxpayers' money on a proxy war that is thousands of miles away, and a place that has shown itself capable of appalling acts of terrorism and murder for the last 70 years . . . Or am I missing something?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/neil-francis-after-the-atrocities-of-munich-palestinian-flag-should-not-be-flown-at-any-sporting-arena-37345100.html

I wonder how many people agree with him
Especially considering Irish history

Last paragraph is a joke. Just because our society is not 'perfect', it's still a million miles better than life in Palestine. We should all be clencoursged to help other people no matter if on our own street or in a faraway land. Yes I fear he is 'missing something'
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on February 20, 2021, 12:02:03 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/israel-destroys-irish-aid-to-palestinian-village-community-1.4489881

Is it not time Ireland started imposing diplomatic sanctions on Israel? Should have been done decades ago but better late than never.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 12:04:44 PM
Quote from: general_lee on February 20, 2021, 12:02:03 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/israel-destroys-irish-aid-to-palestinian-village-community-1.4489881

Is it not time Ireland started imposing diplomatic sanctions on Israel? Should have been done decades ago but better late than never.

Absolutely but if you look at the Russophobia thread you see the type of pro-American imperialism that seems to permeate in Irish society.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 12:34:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 12:04:44 PM
Quote from: general_lee on February 20, 2021, 12:02:03 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/israel-destroys-irish-aid-to-palestinian-village-community-1.4489881

Is it not time Ireland started imposing diplomatic sanctions on Israel? Should have been done decades ago but better late than never.

Absolutely but if you look at the Russophobia thread you see the type of pro-American imperialism that seems to permeate in Irish society.

Doesn't take you long to start talking shite! The dung that you keep throwing  up is impressive
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on February 20, 2021, 12:42:24 PM
 :D ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 12:43:46 PM
Another thread soon to be ruined
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: north_antrim_hound on February 20, 2021, 12:46:50 PM
The Indo is a west Brit paper so they would see things from the British perspective. The article and its author always miss the most thought provoking aspect of terrorism in any place or era,  what happens to a race of people to drive them to such deplorable acts in the first place.
Most would share his condemnation of the atrocities but its very one sided.

And Angelo would you ever F away off
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 12:50:34 PM
Lots of triggered pro-American imperialists here.

That's an uneasy truth for you so ye can go and f**k off with your crocodile tears here for Palestine when your outlook is part of the issue of what is allowed to happen in Palestine.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 01:27:57 PM
It's very simple, just put Angelo on your ignore list if you are that way  inclined, instead of being irresistably drawn to reading Angelo's posts, getting upset and then actually replying to them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 12:50:34 PM
Lots of triggered pro-American imperialists here.

That's an uneasy truth for you so ye can go and f**k off with your crocodile tears here for Palestine when your outlook is part of the issue of what is allowed to happen in Palestine.

You don't give a shit about them you fool!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 01:37:38 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 12:50:34 PM
Lots of triggered pro-American imperialists here.

That's an uneasy truth for you so ye can go and f**k off with your crocodile tears here for Palestine when your outlook is part of the issue of what is allowed to happen in Palestine.

You don't give a shit about them you fool!

I actually do give a shit about the Palestenian cause and regularly donate money to charities that help out there. There struggle is a common one with northern nationalists. There's a lot of virtue signallers here who back America and their foreign, that foreign policy backs Israel bombing hospitals in the Gaza strip and those posters should not feign crocodile tears for Palestine when they are part of the problem.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 01:43:55 PM
It's starting, Angelo is at it again. Ruining one thread at a time.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 01:44:30 PM
This thread has been on here years!!! You d never (thank f**k) engaged in any of the topics that have brought up, a bit like the depression thread, not one post. So forgive  me for thinking you're full of shit
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 01:57:24 PM
What was Angelo's old login?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 01:57:24 PM
What was Angelo's old login?

Sure he's only been on here once  8)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 02:12:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 01:44:30 PM
This thread has been on here years!!! You d never (thank f**k) engaged in any of the topics that have brought up, a bit like the depression thread, not one post. So forgive  me for thinking you're full of shit

Typical Mildred.

Attacks a poster who exposes him as a sanctimonious motormouth.

Go take your crocodile tears for the Palestinians and piss off out of here, leave it for those who oppose Israel and their political allies.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 02:19:46 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 02:12:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 01:44:30 PM
This thread has been on here years!!! You d never (thank f**k) engaged in any of the topics that have brought up, a bit like the depression thread, not one post. So forgive  me for thinking you're full of shit

Typical Mildred.

Attacks a poster who exposes him as a sanctimonious motormouth.

Go take your crocodile tears for the Palestinians and piss off out of here, leave it for those who oppose Israel and their political allies.

More crap. Not one part of your posts are believable. None. You said Russia held peace in Europe after the war when it didn't retreat one step. I suppose you're also backing the British after not leaving Ireland.   

Just read back some of the shite you post and take a 'redener'
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: HiMucker on February 20, 2021, 02:32:11 PM
Redner ;D
An underused and under appreciated word
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 02:59:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 02:19:46 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 02:12:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 01:44:30 PM
This thread has been on here years!!! You d never (thank f**k) engaged in any of the topics that have brought up, a bit like the depression thread, not one post. So forgive  me for thinking you're full of shit

Typical Mildred.

Attacks a poster who exposes him as a sanctimonious motormouth.

Go take your crocodile tears for the Palestinians and piss off out of here, leave it for those who oppose Israel and their political allies.

More crap. Not one part of your posts are believable. None. You said Russia held peace in Europe after the war when it didn't retreat one step. I suppose you're also backing the British after not leaving Ireland.   

Just read back some of the shite you post and take a 'redener'

More bile and nonsense from the forum's biggest keyboard warrior.

Unlike you I resent the policies of the West in conflicts around the world where they back the imperialist force without question. Your daft hypocrisy is notable on every thread.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 04:00:03 PM
Listen to yourself!! Where have I said the stuff you've made up ?  ;D
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:02:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 04:00:03 PM
Listen to yourself!! Where have I said the stuff you've made up ?  ;D

Take your own advice and hang your head in shame at your contributions on here.

It's clear Russia kept peace in Europe after WW2, you decide to cosy up to the western superpower that supports the Israeli state and their shelling of hospitals in the Gaza strip.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 04:07:46 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:02:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 04:00:03 PM
Listen to yourself!! Where have I said the stuff you've made up ?  ;D

Take your own advice and hang your head in shame at your contributions on here.

It's clear Russia kept peace in Europe after WW2, you decide to cosy up to the western superpower that supports the Israeli state and their shelling of hospitals in the Gaza strip.

Where have I said it? Kept peace? Like the British kept peace here? So let me get this one more time Russia was allowed to stay in the countries like Afghanistan because they kept the peace?

No country should interfere with another? Otherwise you're supporting Israel in Palestine
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: north_antrim_hound on February 20, 2021, 04:17:07 PM
Cmon MR2 leave him be and he might f..k off. He's a bit unstable
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: north_antrim_hound on February 20, 2021, 04:17:07 PM
Cmon MR2 leave him be and he might f..k off. He's a bit unstable

Run along yourself, American imperialist sympathiser.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.

I like reading his ridiculous responses at times. Sometimes I'll drop a wee one liner in and know he's away to draft a mini dissertation response. The main spends some amount of time writing replies on here.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.

I like reading his ridiculous responses at times. Sometimes I'll drop a wee one liner in and know he's away to draft a mini dissertation response. The main spends some amount of time writing replies on here.

I think you drop a wee one liner comment because you don't have the intelligence to engage on a serious level.

You can give a smug sanctimonious reply but as you and I both know, you do like to act the Judas now don't you? :)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.

I like reading his ridiculous responses at times. Sometimes I'll drop a wee one liner in and know he's away to draft a mini dissertation response. The main spends some amount of time writing replies on here.

I think you drop a wee one liner comment because you don't have the intelligence to engage on a serious level.

You can give a smug sanctimonious reply but as you and I both know, you do like to act the Judas now don't you? :)

Is that the time I sent you a PM to tell you that Neil Lennon was illdecide's cousin? Sorry that was a wee white lie set up by myself and illdecide.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.

I like reading his ridiculous responses at times. Sometimes I'll drop a wee one liner in and know he's away to draft a mini dissertation response. The main spends some amount of time writing replies on here.

I think you drop a wee one liner comment because you don't have the intelligence to engage on a serious level.

You can give a smug sanctimonious reply but as you and I both know, you do like to act the Judas now don't you? :)

Is that the time I sent you a PM to tell you that Neil Lennon was illdecide's cousin? Sorry that was a wee white lie set up by myself and illdecide.  ;D ;D

Seems like that reply caused you a bit of stress. About 40 minutes to come up with it when you were online.

Bit weird to be conspiring with other forum members to feed disinformation to another poster by PM.

Looks like you might take the internet a little too seriously if that's what you get up to.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:29:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.

I like reading his ridiculous responses at times. Sometimes I'll drop a wee one liner in and know he's away to draft a mini dissertation response. The main spends some amount of time writing replies on here.

I think you drop a wee one liner comment because you don't have the intelligence to engage on a serious level.

You can give a smug sanctimonious reply but as you and I both know, you do like to act the Judas now don't you? :)

Is that the time I sent you a PM to tell you that Neil Lennon was illdecide's cousin? Sorry that was a wee white lie set up by myself and illdecide.  ;D ;D

Seems like that reply caused you a bit of stress. About 40 minutes to come up with it when you were online.

Bit weird to be conspiring with other forum members to feed disinformation to another poster by PM.

Looks like you might take the internet a little too seriously if that's what you get up to.

It took me that long to gather myself after being so stressed. I have to be honest, I had a bit of a breakdown there when I saw your post. You seem to be triggered by my wee white lie and that it had the desired impact on you. Relax Angelo, it's just a bit of fun on here.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:33:57 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:29:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.

I like reading his ridiculous responses at times. Sometimes I'll drop a wee one liner in and know he's away to draft a mini dissertation response. The main spends some amount of time writing replies on here.

I think you drop a wee one liner comment because you don't have the intelligence to engage on a serious level.

You can give a smug sanctimonious reply but as you and I both know, you do like to act the Judas now don't you? :)

Is that the time I sent you a PM to tell you that Neil Lennon was illdecide's cousin? Sorry that was a wee white lie set up by myself and illdecide.  ;D ;D

Seems like that reply caused you a bit of stress. About 40 minutes to come up with it when you were online.

Bit weird to be conspiring with other forum members to feed disinformation to another poster by PM.

Looks like you might take the internet a little too seriously if that's what you get up to.

It took me that long to gather myself after being so stressed. I have to be honest, I had a bit of a breakdown there when I saw your post. You seem to be triggered by my wee white lie and that it had the desired impact on you. Relax Angelo, it's just a bit of fun on here.

I don't think you need to be giving that message to me. Maybe take some time to reflect on it yourself.

You decided to PM me a few months back out of the blue saying Neil Lennon was illdecide's brother-in-law, I didn't engage with you. Presumably that upset you a little.

Now you've came up with some c**k and bull cover story and are trying to put on a brave face at the mortification of it coming to light. Maybe illdecide will corroborate this for you.

Either way it shows you take this place very, very seriously to be sneaking into the PMs of other posters and feeding them what you now claim was a made up story.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:33:57 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:29:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.

I like reading his ridiculous responses at times. Sometimes I'll drop a wee one liner in and know he's away to draft a mini dissertation response. The main spends some amount of time writing replies on here.

I think you drop a wee one liner comment because you don't have the intelligence to engage on a serious level.

You can give a smug sanctimonious reply but as you and I both know, you do like to act the Judas now don't you? :)

Is that the time I sent you a PM to tell you that Neil Lennon was illdecide's cousin? Sorry that was a wee white lie set up by myself and illdecide.  ;D ;D

Seems like that reply caused you a bit of stress. About 40 minutes to come up with it when you were online.

Bit weird to be conspiring with other forum members to feed disinformation to another poster by PM.

Looks like you might take the internet a little too seriously if that's what you get up to.

It took me that long to gather myself after being so stressed. I have to be honest, I had a bit of a breakdown there when I saw your post. You seem to be triggered by my wee white lie and that it had the desired impact on you. Relax Angelo, it's just a bit of fun on here.

I don't think you need to be giving that message to me. Maybe take some time to reflect on it yourself.

You decided to PM me a few months back out of the blue saying Neil Lennon was illdecide's brother-in-law, I didn't engage with you. Presumably that upset you a little.

Now you've came up with some c**k and bull cover story and are trying to put on a brave face at the mortification of it coming to light. Maybe illdecide will corroborate this for you.

Either way it shows you take this place very, very seriously to be sneaking into the PMs of other posters and feeding them what you now claim was a made up story.

Angelo, calm down, it was just a wee joke. Go and sit in a dark room for 10mins and relax. illdecide had a right laugh about it too though. A few of the other lads in the Celtic thread were in on the joke too. #triggered
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:41:53 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:33:57 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:29:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 20, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
Perhaps the Angelo groupies don't know how to set the ignore button or just naturally attracted to self abuse more than common sense.

I like reading his ridiculous responses at times. Sometimes I'll drop a wee one liner in and know he's away to draft a mini dissertation response. The main spends some amount of time writing replies on here.

I think you drop a wee one liner comment because you don't have the intelligence to engage on a serious level.

You can give a smug sanctimonious reply but as you and I both know, you do like to act the Judas now don't you? :)

Is that the time I sent you a PM to tell you that Neil Lennon was illdecide's cousin? Sorry that was a wee white lie set up by myself and illdecide.  ;D ;D

Seems like that reply caused you a bit of stress. About 40 minutes to come up with it when you were online.

Bit weird to be conspiring with other forum members to feed disinformation to another poster by PM.

Looks like you might take the internet a little too seriously if that's what you get up to.

It took me that long to gather myself after being so stressed. I have to be honest, I had a bit of a breakdown there when I saw your post. You seem to be triggered by my wee white lie and that it had the desired impact on you. Relax Angelo, it's just a bit of fun on here.

I don't think you need to be giving that message to me. Maybe take some time to reflect on it yourself.

You decided to PM me a few months back out of the blue saying Neil Lennon was illdecide's brother-in-law, I didn't engage with you. Presumably that upset you a little.

Now you've came up with some c**k and bull cover story and are trying to put on a brave face at the mortification of it coming to light. Maybe illdecide will corroborate this for you.

Either way it shows you take this place very, very seriously to be sneaking into the PMs of other posters and feeding them what you now claim was a made up story.

Angelo, calm down, it was just a wee joke. Go and sit in a dark room for 10mins and relax. illdecide had a right laugh about it too though. A few of the other lads in the Celtic thread were in on the joke too. #triggered

Once again, I think you need to take your own advice and stop trying to project onto me.

You are doing a very, very bad job at disguising how mortified you are about this being revealed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:43:08 PM
I destroyed you m8
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:46:50 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:43:08 PM
I destroyed you m8

The posts are there now as much as you'd like them not to be. I'm going to leave it at that and let everyone judge for themselves who has been destroyed.

:)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:48:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 05:46:50 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 05:43:08 PM
I destroyed you m8

The posts are there now as much as you'd like them not to be. I'm going to leave it at that and let everyone judge for themselves who has been destroyed.

:)

That'll do. Hope you're ok after the big revelations there about illdecide's fake brother in law  ;)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: redzone on February 20, 2021, 08:02:04 PM
Jim lockdown has completey made you go bonkers. You used to me a man of great sense.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: redzone on February 20, 2021, 08:02:04 PM
Jim lockdown has completey made you go bonkers. You used to me a man of great sense.

Haha I just love to wind up Angelo. He doesn't warrant sensible discussion.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 08:50:07 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: redzone on February 20, 2021, 08:02:04 PM
Jim lockdown has completey made you go bonkers. You used to me a man of great sense.

Haha I just love to wind up Angelo. He doesn't warrant sensible discussion.

Odd that you think I am wound up.

You've only served to make a complete fool out of yourself with your obsession and you're here with your shovel digging further.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 09:00:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 20, 2021, 08:50:07 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 20, 2021, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: redzone on February 20, 2021, 08:02:04 PM
Jim lockdown has completey made you go bonkers. You used to me a man of great sense.

Haha I just love to wind up Angelo. He doesn't warrant sensible discussion.

Odd that you think I am wound up.

You've only served to make a complete fool out of yourself with your obsession and you're here with your shovel digging further.

(https://img.memecdn.com/raging_o_6982585.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:35:40 PM
Quote from: general_lee on February 20, 2021, 12:02:03 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/israel-destroys-irish-aid-to-palestinian-village-community-1.4489881

Is it not time Ireland started imposing diplomatic sanctions on Israel? Should have been done decades ago but better late than never.

Let's try and get this back on track eh?
Woukd the Irish have the balls to impose any sanctions? Even if they did Israel would hit them with the anti Semitic line. That holds a lot of countries in check  when it comes to Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: TwoUpTwoDown on February 21, 2021, 12:45:43 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

This is what I would love to know. It's an absolute disgrace to see how the Palestinian people are treated. But the whole world turns a blind eye?

I was fortunate enough to spend 6months working with the Larche community in Bethlehem a few years ago and as a whole the people would blow you away. They have a huge affiliation with the Irish. It's a stunning part of the world and yet it is being held In a vice grip by Israeli forces and nobody seems to care?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:13:12 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Definitely.

There should be a ban on the importation of Israeli goods.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on February 21, 2021, 10:57:28 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?
Because the US is thier protector/mentor?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?

I've said the exact opposite to that.

I don't but the likes of you clearly do.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?

I've said the exact opposite to that.

I don't but the likes of you clearly do.

You're happy with how Russia looked after Afghanistan? Kept the peace? Keep digging lad
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 01:02:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?

I've said the exact opposite to that.

I don't but the likes of you clearly do.

You're happy with how Russia looked after Afghanistan? Kept the peace? Keep digging lad

I am happy about how Russia looked after Afghanistan while the Americans were financing and supplying Al Qaeda with weapons.

Keep digging.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 01:02:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?

I've said the exact opposite to that.

I don't but the likes of you clearly do.

You're happy with how Russia looked after Afghanistan? Kept the peace? Keep digging lad

I am happy about how Russia looked after Afghanistan while the Americans were financing and supplying Al Qaeda with weapons.

Keep digging.

So occupying countries is ok, like Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: imtommygunn on February 21, 2021, 02:04:03 PM
I think it has turned to that over the last few years yes but I think there is some clout at some senior positions in various governments.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 01:02:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?

I've said the exact opposite to that.

I don't but the likes of you clearly do.

You're happy with how Russia looked after Afghanistan? Kept the peace? Keep digging lad

I am happy about how Russia looked after Afghanistan while the Americans were financing and supplying Al Qaeda with weapons.

Keep digging.

So occupying countries is ok, like Israel

No it's not and I think it's telling that you say it is ok.

What is happening in Palestine is disgusting but I'm not surprised to see you support it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic

It's because The West are allies with Israel.

They have no worries about allegations of islamophobia.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 01:02:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?

I've said the exact opposite to that.

I don't but the likes of you clearly do.

You're happy with how Russia looked after Afghanistan? Kept the peace? Keep digging lad

I am happy about how Russia looked after Afghanistan while the Americans were financing and supplying Al Qaeda with weapons.

Keep digging.

So occupying countries is ok, like Israel

No it's not and I think it's telling that you say it is ok.

What is happening in Palestine is disgusting but I'm not surprised to see you support it.

You said it's ok. You are happy countries occupy other countries so you are for what Israel stands for, unfair occupation of another country. Pathetic really
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 03:19:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 01:02:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?

I've said the exact opposite to that.

I don't but the likes of you clearly do.

You're happy with how Russia looked after Afghanistan? Kept the peace? Keep digging lad

I am happy about how Russia looked after Afghanistan while the Americans were financing and supplying Al Qaeda with weapons.

Keep digging.

So occupying countries is ok, like Israel

No it's not and I think it's telling that you say it is ok.

What is happening in Palestine is disgusting but I'm not surprised to see you support it.

You said it's ok. You are happy countries occupy other countries so you are for what Israel stands for, unfair occupation of another country. Pathetic really

You said it was ok.

I did not.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic

It's because The West are allies with Israel.

They have no worries about allegations of islamophobia.

That's part of it. And for some reason being islamophobic is not considered as bad as being anti Semitic. Look at the tories v Corbyn for example. As long as Israel continue to play the AS card every time they are criticised this will continue to be the case. It happens at every level. Even on twitter when you criticise Israel someone comes along with the AS line
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 03:23:00 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 03:19:11 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 01:02:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 21, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 10:47:37 AM
Quote from: skeog on February 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Celtic liked Israeli players Angelo take it you were against that.

I don't see what that has got do with it. Do you want me to be bigotted against Israeli individuals? I won't, I will call their state out on their vile actions though.

I do however find the actions of the Israeli state absolutely reprehensible.

Maybe you find the bombing of hospitals by state occupying forces to be acceptable though?

You find occupying countries acceptable?

I've said the exact opposite to that.

I don't but the likes of you clearly do.

You're happy with how Russia looked after Afghanistan? Kept the peace? Keep digging lad

I am happy about how Russia looked after Afghanistan while the Americans were financing and supplying Al Qaeda with weapons.

Keep digging.

So occupying countries is ok, like Israel

No it's not and I think it's telling that you say it is ok.

What is happening in Palestine is disgusting but I'm not surprised to see you support it.

You said it's ok. You are happy countries occupy other countries so you are for what Israel stands for, unfair occupation of another country. Pathetic really

You said it was ok.

I did not.

No you said countries that occupy others is fine, Russia being the main culprits since WW2. You have repeatedly said Russia did nothing wrong. Pathetic
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic

It's because The West are allies with Israel.

They have no worries about allegations of islamophobia.

That's part of it. And for some reason being islamophobic is not considered as bad as being anti Semitic. Look at the tories v Corbyn for example. As long as Israel continue to play the AS card every time they are criticised this will continue to be the case. It happens at every level. Even on twitter when you criticise Israel someone comes along with the AS line
AS won't work for much longer.
Israel is running apartheid and more and more people understand that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:57:41 PM
There is a bit of a change in attitudes towards Israel. Too little too late and it remains to be seen how long it lasts for
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 07:06:12 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:57:41 PM
There is a bit of a change in attitudes towards Israel. Too little too late and it remains to be seen how long it lasts for

They are very afraid of proper left wing parties taking over in countries with permanent UN seats. They are afraid of international law.  This is why Starmer is now leading Labour. He has veen fully vetted.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200414-keir-starmer-as-labour-party-leader-what-this-means-for-palestine/


f**k them. If it is politically expedient they will be shafted. That is how power works. Most politicians hate them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic

It's because The West are allies with Israel.

They have no worries about allegations of islamophobia.

That's part of it. And for some reason being islamophobic is not considered as bad as being anti Semitic. Look at the tories v Corbyn for example. As long as Israel continue to play the AS card every time they are criticised this will continue to be the case. It happens at every level. Even on twitter when you criticise Israel someone comes along with the AS line
AS won't work for much longer.
Israel is running apartheid and more and more people understand that.
Unfortunately it will continue to work, probably even more effectively than before, because Israel has immense influence in Western politics and media

The international right is shot through with genuine anti-Semitism, but this is overlooked because all these anti-Semites are fervently pro-Israel

There is also a minority of the pro-Palestine left which engages in genuine anti-Semitism and is too thick to see it, which sadly harms Palestine even further

You also have the international cult of neo-Nazism which wishes for another Holocaust, and so sees Palestine as a way to achieve this - Palestine would obviously be much better off without their unwanted support

Palestine has no allies, apart from the majority of the ordinary people internationally who see how it is treated - which absolutely is apartheid - but they have no power

Russia is an ally of Israel, many of the most hardline right-wingers in Israel are of Russian or Soviet origin, and Russia's ally Assad has several times bombed Palestinian refugee camps

So the tragic reality is Palestine has no hope whatsoever
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 07:57:51 PM
Ignore the anti-Russian racist above.

Palsetine has an ally in Russia and Premier Putin.

https://www.haaretz.com/russia-s-putin-pledges-support-for-palestinian-state-1.5344154
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:01:57 PM
Sure the US officially supports a Palestinian state

But we all know they don't give a fook

And neither does Russia

Try telling that to a racist trollbot though  ;D
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on February 21, 2021, 08:06:36 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:35:40 PM
Quote from: general_lee on February 20, 2021, 12:02:03 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/israel-destroys-irish-aid-to-palestinian-village-community-1.4489881

Is it not time Ireland started imposing diplomatic sanctions on Israel? Should have been done decades ago but better late than never.

Let's try and get this back on track eh?
Woukd the Irish have the balls to impose any sanctions? Even if they did Israel would hit them with the anti Semitic line. That holds a lot of countries in check  when it comes to Israel
In an ideal world, you'd expel the Israeli ambassador, suspend diplomatic relations, limit or ban travel for Israeli passport holders into Ireland, impose sanctions on Israeli companies trading in Ireland and a general ban on Israeli products being imported. I'm not sure how any of that is possible due to conflict with EU policies; nor do I think we have any one in our right wing government that even entertain the idea.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:07:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:01:57 PM
Sure the US officially supports a Palestinian state

But we all know they don't give a fook

And neither does Russia

Try telling that to a racist trollbot though  ;D

They don't and have never proclaimed to.

Putin has been definitive on the matter, he supports a Palestine state but as you are a nasty racist you are incapable of dealing in the truth.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:14:26 PM
FAO Racist Sidney

http://palestineun.org/about-palestine/diplomatic-relations/

Russia have recongised the Palestenian state since 19 November 1988, the date of their independence, that's 32 years ago.

The Russian premier has publicly and unequivocally backed an independent Palestinian states.

Amercia and the EU and rest of the west do not recognise Palestine and to say otherwise is just telling bare faced lies.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:17:23 PM
Countries who recognise Palestine in green.

(https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/7b791eb1c738405397e7c4e68cc5a429_6.jpeg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 08:27:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic

It's because The West are allies with Israel.

They have no worries about allegations of islamophobia.

That's part of it. And for some reason being islamophobic is not considered as bad as being anti Semitic. Look at the tories v Corbyn for example. As long as Israel continue to play the AS card every time they are criticised this will continue to be the case. It happens at every level. Even on twitter when you criticise Israel someone comes along with the AS line
AS won't work for much longer.
Israel is running apartheid and more and more people understand that.
Unfortunately it will continue to work, probably even more effectively than before, because Israel has immense influence in Western politics and media

The international right is shot through with genuine anti-Semitism, but this is overlooked because all these anti-Semites are fervently pro-Israel

There is also a minority of the pro-Palestine left which engages in genuine anti-Semitism and is too thick to see it, which sadly harms Palestine even further

You also have the international cult of neo-Nazism which wishes for another Holocaust, and so sees Palestine as a way to achieve this - Palestine would obviously be much better off without their unwanted support

Palestine has no allies, apart from the majority of the ordinary people internationally who see how it is treated - which absolutely is apartheid - but they have no power

Russia is an ally of Israel, many of the most hardline right-wingers in Israel are of Russian or Soviet origin, and Russia's ally Assad has several times bombed Palestinian refugee camps

So the tragic reality is Palestine has no hope whatsoever

The Zionists were forced to take Corbyn out . In the open. Straight out of the antisemitic fraud the Protocols of the elders of Zion. Israeli embassy involved as well.as Board of Deputies. Why?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200414-keir-starmer-as-labour-party-leader-what-this-means-for-palestine/amp/

"For the pro-Israel lobby, the goal is to have a leader bound by the current Western economic and imperialist order, it is likely that this will happen through Starmer's strong support for the IHRA and the agency held over him by pro-Israel groups."

They want neoliberalism to.continue because of the wealth distribution. Israel is dependent on behind the scenes lobbying that is very f**king expensive.

The next crash.on the Lehman scale will.send interest rates to minus 4%
Neoliberalism is dying. When it does expire some version of socialism will replace it whether Israel likes it or not.
Billionaire Zionists will be taxed to irrelevance

Israel revealed its fragility when it went after Corbyn.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:35:12 PM
And the new Labour leader.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVbiTCRX0AwsKIs.jpg)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:36:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 08:27:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic

It's because The West are allies with Israel.

They have no worries about allegations of islamophobia.

That's part of it. And for some reason being islamophobic is not considered as bad as being anti Semitic. Look at the tories v Corbyn for example. As long as Israel continue to play the AS card every time they are criticised this will continue to be the case. It happens at every level. Even on twitter when you criticise Israel someone comes along with the AS line
AS won't work for much longer.
Israel is running apartheid and more and more people understand that.
Unfortunately it will continue to work, probably even more effectively than before, because Israel has immense influence in Western politics and media

The international right is shot through with genuine anti-Semitism, but this is overlooked because all these anti-Semites are fervently pro-Israel

There is also a minority of the pro-Palestine left which engages in genuine anti-Semitism and is too thick to see it, which sadly harms Palestine even further

You also have the international cult of neo-Nazism which wishes for another Holocaust, and so sees Palestine as a way to achieve this - Palestine would obviously be much better off without their unwanted support

Palestine has no allies, apart from the majority of the ordinary people internationally who see how it is treated - which absolutely is apartheid - but they have no power

Russia is an ally of Israel, many of the most hardline right-wingers in Israel are of Russian or Soviet origin, and Russia's ally Assad has several times bombed Palestinian refugee camps

So the tragic reality is Palestine has no hope whatsoever

The Zionists were forced to take Corbyn out . In the open. Straight out of the antisemitic fraud the Protocols of the elders of Zion. Israeli embassy involved as well.as Board of Deputies. Why?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200414-keir-starmer-as-labour-party-leader-what-this-means-for-palestine/amp/

"For the pro-Israel lobby, the goal is to have a leader bound by the current Western economic and imperialist order, it is likely that this will happen through Starmer's strong support for the IHRA and the agency held over him by pro-Israel groups."

They want neoliberalism to.continue because of the wealth distribution. Israel is dependent on behind the scenes lobbying that is very f**king expensive.

The next crash.on the Lehman scale will.send interest rates to minus 4%
Neoliberalism is dying. When it does expire some version of socialism will replace it whether Israel likes it or not.
Billionaire Zionists will be taxed to irrelevance

Israel revealed its fragility when it went after Corbyn.
Sorry but none of that is going to change the situation where the pro-Israel lobby is dominant

They are only going to get more dominant

Sure GB News and a rival Murdoch station are launching very soon in Britain

The Republican party despite being viciously anti-Semitic is also viciously anti-Palestine, as are the leadership of the Democratic party

Look at the Boyle brothers, who are Democrats, they are also viciously anti-Palestine

The woke left are the only hope whatsoever for Palestine in the US, so you better hope AOC gets to be president

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:44:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:36:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 08:27:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic

It's because The West are allies with Israel.

They have no worries about allegations of islamophobia.

That's part of it. And for some reason being islamophobic is not considered as bad as being anti Semitic. Look at the tories v Corbyn for example. As long as Israel continue to play the AS card every time they are criticised this will continue to be the case. It happens at every level. Even on twitter when you criticise Israel someone comes along with the AS line
AS won't work for much longer.
Israel is running apartheid and more and more people understand that.
Unfortunately it will continue to work, probably even more effectively than before, because Israel has immense influence in Western politics and media

The international right is shot through with genuine anti-Semitism, but this is overlooked because all these anti-Semites are fervently pro-Israel

There is also a minority of the pro-Palestine left which engages in genuine anti-Semitism and is too thick to see it, which sadly harms Palestine even further

You also have the international cult of neo-Nazism which wishes for another Holocaust, and so sees Palestine as a way to achieve this - Palestine would obviously be much better off without their unwanted support

Palestine has no allies, apart from the majority of the ordinary people internationally who see how it is treated - which absolutely is apartheid - but they have no power

Russia is an ally of Israel, many of the most hardline right-wingers in Israel are of Russian or Soviet origin, and Russia's ally Assad has several times bombed Palestinian refugee camps

So the tragic reality is Palestine has no hope whatsoever

The Zionists were forced to take Corbyn out . In the open. Straight out of the antisemitic fraud the Protocols of the elders of Zion. Israeli embassy involved as well.as Board of Deputies. Why?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200414-keir-starmer-as-labour-party-leader-what-this-means-for-palestine/amp/

"For the pro-Israel lobby, the goal is to have a leader bound by the current Western economic and imperialist order, it is likely that this will happen through Starmer's strong support for the IHRA and the agency held over him by pro-Israel groups."

They want neoliberalism to.continue because of the wealth distribution. Israel is dependent on behind the scenes lobbying that is very f**king expensive.

The next crash.on the Lehman scale will.send interest rates to minus 4%
Neoliberalism is dying. When it does expire some version of socialism will replace it whether Israel likes it or not.
Billionaire Zionists will be taxed to irrelevance

Israel revealed its fragility when it went after Corbyn.
Sorry but none of that is going to change the situation where the pro-Israel lobby is dominant

They are only going to get more dominant

Sure GB News and a rival Murdoch station are launching very soon in Britain

The Republican party despite being viciously anti-Semitic is also viciously anti-Palestine, as are the leadership of the Democratic party

Look at the Boyle brothers, who are Democrats, they are also viciously anti-Palestine

The woke left are the only hope whatsoever for Palestine in the US, so you better hope AOC gets to be president

Only took you successive posts on this thread to contradict yourself.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]

Do you judge your beloved free state on the actions of the Kinahan gang?

You exposed yourself and your anti-Russian agenda in this thread by telling blatant untruths and you've done nothing to substantiate them.

Russia has been an ally of Palestine from day one, the 19th November 1988 and as much as you try and spin yet another case of Russia being on the right side yet again, you can't change the truth so you spread lies and misinformation.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:56:41 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.
Good point  ;D
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on February 21, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]

Do you judge your beloved free state on the actions of the Kinahan gang?

You exposed yourself and your anti-Russian agenda in this thread by telling blatant untruths and you've done nothing to substantiate them.

Russia has been an ally of Palestine from day one, the 19th November 1988 and as much as you try and spin yet another case of Russia being on the right side yet again, you can't change the truth so you spread lies and misinformation.

So Russia's occupation of Crimea is OK but Israel's occupation of Palestine isn't??

I'm no fan of any occupation but you seem happy enough to cherry pick the 1 relatively excusable thing Russia have done and forget about the cyber warfare/annexation/corruption/raping of its countries natural resources/disgraceful treatment of LGBTQ but they support Palestine so they're a great bunch of lads... warped!!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 12:03:11 AM
He's been found out so many times he forgets what he 'supports' and then continues to dig the biggest hole.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 06:42:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:36:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 08:27:29 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 21, 2021, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 20, 2021, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 20, 2021, 11:50:47 PM
What sanctions could Ireland impose that would make a difference?

The place is a disaster, how governments allow what goes on  or deal with Israel like the do is embarrassing.

Take away the septic line and it's heart of hearts it's a occupying force squeezing the life out of Palestinians

Anyone that supports a country that occupies another country is a Cnut  ;)

Could the ambassador be removed maybe? Is that an option. Israel need to be shown that they cannot operate with impunity

What hold do they have on countries?

I wish I knew. I genuinely think countries don't want to go against them because they don't want to be labelled as anti Semitic

It's because The West are allies with Israel.

They have no worries about allegations of islamophobia.

That's part of it. And for some reason being islamophobic is not considered as bad as being anti Semitic. Look at the tories v Corbyn for example. As long as Israel continue to play the AS card every time they are criticised this will continue to be the case. It happens at every level. Even on twitter when you criticise Israel someone comes along with the AS line
AS won't work for much longer.
Israel is running apartheid and more and more people understand that.
Unfortunately it will continue to work, probably even more effectively than before, because Israel has immense influence in Western politics and media

The international right is shot through with genuine anti-Semitism, but this is overlooked because all these anti-Semites are fervently pro-Israel

There is also a minority of the pro-Palestine left which engages in genuine anti-Semitism and is too thick to see it, which sadly harms Palestine even further

You also have the international cult of neo-Nazism which wishes for another Holocaust, and so sees Palestine as a way to achieve this - Palestine would obviously be much better off without their unwanted support

Palestine has no allies, apart from the majority of the ordinary people internationally who see how it is treated - which absolutely is apartheid - but they have no power

Russia is an ally of Israel, many of the most hardline right-wingers in Israel are of Russian or Soviet origin, and Russia's ally Assad has several times bombed Palestinian refugee camps

So the tragic reality is Palestine has no hope whatsoever

The Zionists were forced to take Corbyn out . In the open. Straight out of the antisemitic fraud the Protocols of the elders of Zion. Israeli embassy involved as well.as Board of Deputies. Why?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200414-keir-starmer-as-labour-party-leader-what-this-means-for-palestine/amp/

"For the pro-Israel lobby, the goal is to have a leader bound by the current Western economic and imperialist order, it is likely that this will happen through Starmer's strong support for the IHRA and the agency held over him by pro-Israel groups."

They want neoliberalism to.continue because of the wealth distribution. Israel is dependent on behind the scenes lobbying that is very f**king expensive.

The next crash.on the Lehman scale will.send interest rates to minus 4%
Neoliberalism is dying. When it does expire some version of socialism will replace it whether Israel likes it or not.
Billionaire Zionists will be taxed to irrelevance

Israel revealed its fragility when it went after Corbyn.
Sorry but none of that is going to change the situation where the pro-Israel lobby is dominant

They are only going to get more dominant

Sure GB News and a rival Murdoch station are launching very soon in Britain

The Republican party despite being viciously anti-Semitic is also viciously anti-Palestine, as are the leadership of the Democratic party

Look at the Boyle brothers, who are Democrats, they are also viciously anti-Palestine

The woke left are the only hope whatsoever for Palestine in the US, so you better hope AOC gets to be president

The past is not prolologue. Zionist money makes the lobby the most powerful in DC. Tammany hall used to be untouchable too. What happened to Tammany Hall? The people got sick of the corruption. And a guy got an airport named after him.

https://youtu.be/SaHflVDIzZo

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 09:39:59 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 21, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]

Do you judge your beloved free state on the actions of the Kinahan gang?

You exposed yourself and your anti-Russian agenda in this thread by telling blatant untruths and you've done nothing to substantiate them.

Russia has been an ally of Palestine from day one, the 19th November 1988 and as much as you try and spin yet another case of Russia being on the right side yet again, you can't change the truth so you spread lies and misinformation.

So Russia's occupation of Crimea is OK but Israel's occupation of Palestine isn't??

I'm no fan of any occupation but you seem happy enough to cherry pick the 1 relatively excusable thing Russia have done and forget about the cyber warfare/annexation/corruption/raping of its countries natural resources/disgraceful treatment of LGBTQ but they support Palestine so they're a great bunch of lads... warped!!

Crimea is Russian. The Ukranian occupation of Crimea was wrong.

Also worth noting that Russia's stance on Crimea is supported by Palestine.

Palestinian Ambassador to Russia Abdel Hafiz Nofal made a statement in an interview with the media, noting that the people of Crimea "have the right to self-determination," and Palestine itself "supports Russia's actions on this issue."

Despite Sidney's lies, Russia always have and always will be an ally to Palestine, when it comes to conflicts Russia rarely picks the wrong side - history has taught us that.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: skeog on February 22, 2021, 09:48:16 AM
Angelo were you ever in Palestine? must be some hell hole.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 09:54:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 09:39:59 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 21, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]

Do you judge your beloved free state on the actions of the Kinahan gang?

You exposed yourself and your anti-Russian agenda in this thread by telling blatant untruths and you've done nothing to substantiate them.

Russia has been an ally of Palestine from day one, the 19th November 1988 and as much as you try and spin yet another case of Russia being on the right side yet again, you can't change the truth so you spread lies and misinformation.

So Russia's occupation of Crimea is OK but Israel's occupation of Palestine isn't??

I'm no fan of any occupation but you seem happy enough to cherry pick the 1 relatively excusable thing Russia have done and forget about the cyber warfare/annexation/corruption/raping of its countries natural resources/disgraceful treatment of LGBTQ but they support Palestine so they're a great bunch of lads... warped!!

Crimea is Russian. The Ukranian occupation of Crimea was wrong.

Also worth noting that Russia's stance on Crimea is supported by Palestine.

Palestinian Ambassador to Russia Abdel Hafiz Nofal made a statement in an interview with the media, noting that the people of Crimea "have the right to self-determination," and Palestine itself "supports Russia's actions on this issue."

Despite Sidney's lies, Russia always have and always will be an ally to Palestine, when it comes to conflicts Russia rarely picks the wrong side - history has taught us that.
The Soviets expelled the Crimean Tatars during WW2. Crimea is not Russian.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 09:54:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 09:39:59 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 21, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]

Do you judge your beloved free state on the actions of the Kinahan gang?

You exposed yourself and your anti-Russian agenda in this thread by telling blatant untruths and you've done nothing to substantiate them.

Russia has been an ally of Palestine from day one, the 19th November 1988 and as much as you try and spin yet another case of Russia being on the right side yet again, you can't change the truth so you spread lies and misinformation.

So Russia's occupation of Crimea is OK but Israel's occupation of Palestine isn't??

I'm no fan of any occupation but you seem happy enough to cherry pick the 1 relatively excusable thing Russia have done and forget about the cyber warfare/annexation/corruption/raping of its countries natural resources/disgraceful treatment of LGBTQ but they support Palestine so they're a great bunch of lads... warped!!

Crimea is Russian. The Ukranian occupation of Crimea was wrong.

Also worth noting that Russia's stance on Crimea is supported by Palestine.

Palestinian Ambassador to Russia Abdel Hafiz Nofal made a statement in an interview with the media, noting that the people of Crimea "have the right to self-determination," and Palestine itself "supports Russia's actions on this issue."

Despite Sidney's lies, Russia always have and always will be an ally to Palestine, when it comes to conflicts Russia rarely picks the wrong side - history has taught us that.
The Soviets expelled the Crimean Tatars during WW2. Crimea is not Russian.

Crimea is Russian.

They have an overwhelming mandate there.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 10:13:23 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 09:54:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 09:39:59 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 21, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]

Do you judge your beloved free state on the actions of the Kinahan gang?

You exposed yourself and your anti-Russian agenda in this thread by telling blatant untruths and you've done nothing to substantiate them.

Russia has been an ally of Palestine from day one, the 19th November 1988 and as much as you try and spin yet another case of Russia being on the right side yet again, you can't change the truth so you spread lies and misinformation.

So Russia's occupation of Crimea is OK but Israel's occupation of Palestine isn't??

I'm no fan of any occupation but you seem happy enough to cherry pick the 1 relatively excusable thing Russia have done and forget about the cyber warfare/annexation/corruption/raping of its countries natural resources/disgraceful treatment of LGBTQ but they support Palestine so they're a great bunch of lads... warped!!

Crimea is Russian. The Ukranian occupation of Crimea was wrong.

Also worth noting that Russia's stance on Crimea is supported by Palestine.

Palestinian Ambassador to Russia Abdel Hafiz Nofal made a statement in an interview with the media, noting that the people of Crimea "have the right to self-determination," and Palestine itself "supports Russia's actions on this issue."

Despite Sidney's lies, Russia always have and always will be an ally to Palestine, when it comes to conflicts Russia rarely picks the wrong side - history has taught us that.
The Soviets expelled the Crimean Tatars during WW2. Crimea is not Russian.

Crimea is Russian.

They have an overwhelming mandate there.
It's not recognised under international law. Neither is the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 10:17:40 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 10:13:23 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 09:54:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 09:39:59 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 21, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]

Do you judge your beloved free state on the actions of the Kinahan gang?

You exposed yourself and your anti-Russian agenda in this thread by telling blatant untruths and you've done nothing to substantiate them.

Russia has been an ally of Palestine from day one, the 19th November 1988 and as much as you try and spin yet another case of Russia being on the right side yet again, you can't change the truth so you spread lies and misinformation.

So Russia's occupation of Crimea is OK but Israel's occupation of Palestine isn't??

I'm no fan of any occupation but you seem happy enough to cherry pick the 1 relatively excusable thing Russia have done and forget about the cyber warfare/annexation/corruption/raping of its countries natural resources/disgraceful treatment of LGBTQ but they support Palestine so they're a great bunch of lads... warped!!

Crimea is Russian. The Ukranian occupation of Crimea was wrong.

Also worth noting that Russia's stance on Crimea is supported by Palestine.

Palestinian Ambassador to Russia Abdel Hafiz Nofal made a statement in an interview with the media, noting that the people of Crimea "have the right to self-determination," and Palestine itself "supports Russia's actions on this issue."

Despite Sidney's lies, Russia always have and always will be an ally to Palestine, when it comes to conflicts Russia rarely picks the wrong side - history has taught us that.
The Soviets expelled the Crimean Tatars during WW2. Crimea is not Russian.

Crimea is Russian.

They have an overwhelming mandate there.
It's not recognised under international law. Neither is the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

You're confused and you seem to be very much anti-democracy.

The Crimean people voted in their masses to join Russia, they feel Russian but you and West seem intent to defy democracy and self-determination.

The state of Palestine is not recognised by the West. The state of Palestine has been recognised by Russia and supported by Russia ever since it announced itself in 1988.

Of course facts don't fit in with your pro-imperialism point of view.

Another shining example where Russia has shown the West up as being on the wrong side yet again.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on February 22, 2021, 10:32:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 06:42:25 AM

The past is not prolologue. Zionist money makes the lobby the most powerful in DC. Tammany hall used to be untouchable too. What happened to Tammany Hall? The people got sick of the corruption. And a guy got an airport named after him.

https://youtu.be/SaHflVDIzZo
Tammany Hall didn't exist because of the Holocaust and could not point to the Holocaust as a justification for its existence like the pro-Israel lobby does

Tammany Hall was simple bog standard political corruption in no way comparable to the Israel lobby, no more than it was not comparable to the Irish-American lobby

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Denn Forever on February 22, 2021, 11:32:46 AM
United Nations Palestine

As of 31 July 2019, 138 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states and two non-member states have recognised it. Palestine also has been a non-member observer state of the UN General Assembly since the passing of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 67/19 in November 2012.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 11:46:34 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on February 22, 2021, 11:32:46 AM
United Nations Palestine

As of 31 July 2019, 138 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states and two non-member states have recognised it. Palestine also has been a non-member observer state of the UN General Assembly since the passing of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 67/19 in November 2012.

And pray tell me who out of the 138 UN countries don't recognise it?

I'll give you a few examples - US, Canada, Britain, Australia and the EU countries.

Interesting how those evil Russians continually show the West up when it comes to being on the right side of conflicts.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on February 22, 2021, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 10:17:40 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 10:13:23 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2021, 09:54:41 AM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 09:39:59 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 21, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 21, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2021, 08:48:07 PM
Another little discussed link between Russia and Israel is the mafia connection - many if not most Russian mobsters have Israeli citizenship

Sure where does Abramovich hide out - Israel

Semion Mogilevich is in and out of Israel

Netanyahu is almost certainly mixed up in this world of international organised crime, as is Trump, and Russia is a mafia state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_mafia#Russian_mafia

Russian mafia
The Russian mafia in Israel began with the mass immigration of Russian Jews to Israel in 1989.[14] Jewish Russian crime bosses such as Semion Mogilevich acquired Israeli citizenship and laundered money through Israel.

The Russian mafia saw Israel as an ideal place to launder money, as Israel's banking system was designed to encourage aliyah, the immigration of Jews, and the accompanying capital. Following the trend of global financial deregulation, Israel had also implemented legislation aimed at easing the movement of capital. Combined with the lack of anti-money laundering legislation, Russian organised crime found it an easy place to transfer ill-gotten gains. In 2005, police estimated that Russian organised crime had laundered between $5 and 10 billion in the fifteen years since the end of the Soviet Union. Non-Jewish criminals such as Sergei Mikhailov sought to get Israeli passports, using fake Jewish documentation.[15]

Russian and Ukrainian Jewish criminals have also been able to set up networks in the United States, following the large migration of Russian Jews to New York City and Miami, but also in European cities such as Berlin and Antwerp. Russian-Jewish mobsters include Marat Balagula, Evsei Agron and their respective criminal gangs in the United States. Soviet-Jewish criminal groups in the United States are involved in racketeering, prostitution, drug trafficking, extortion, and gasoline fraud as well as murder.[16]

Do you judge your beloved free state on the actions of the Kinahan gang?

You exposed yourself and your anti-Russian agenda in this thread by telling blatant untruths and you've done nothing to substantiate them.

Russia has been an ally of Palestine from day one, the 19th November 1988 and as much as you try and spin yet another case of Russia being on the right side yet again, you can't change the truth so you spread lies and misinformation.

So Russia's occupation of Crimea is OK but Israel's occupation of Palestine isn't??

I'm no fan of any occupation but you seem happy enough to cherry pick the 1 relatively excusable thing Russia have done and forget about the cyber warfare/annexation/corruption/raping of its countries natural resources/disgraceful treatment of LGBTQ but they support Palestine so they're a great bunch of lads... warped!!

Crimea is Russian. The Ukranian occupation of Crimea was wrong.

Also worth noting that Russia's stance on Crimea is supported by Palestine.

Palestinian Ambassador to Russia Abdel Hafiz Nofal made a statement in an interview with the media, noting that the people of Crimea "have the right to self-determination," and Palestine itself "supports Russia's actions on this issue."

Despite Sidney's lies, Russia always have and always will be an ally to Palestine, when it comes to conflicts Russia rarely picks the wrong side - history has taught us that.
The Soviets expelled the Crimean Tatars during WW2. Crimea is not Russian.

Crimea is Russian.

They have an overwhelming mandate there.
It's not recognised under international law. Neither is the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

You're confused and you seem to be very much anti-democracy.

The Crimean people voted in their masses to join Russia, they feel Russian but you and West seem intent to defy democracy and self-determination.

The state of Palestine is not recognised by the West. The state of Palestine has been recognised by Russia and supported by Russia ever since it announced itself in 1988.

Of course facts don't fit in with your pro-imperialism point of view.

Another shining example where Russia has shown the West up as being on the wrong side yet again.

Yes 97% of the Crimean people in favour of joining Russia seems legit alright!!

Russia have an excellent reputation for running free and fair democratic elections and referenda. . .

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.

I could add more, but you get the drift.

They were such a peaceful loving occupying country that they showed them the communist way, even helped put people in power so that they didn't have to vote them in, saving them the bother, so that they could que up for queue up for bread and other such delights. They even put in quality pipelines in so that the oil coming out of those countries could get to Moscow quicker creating the Russian oligarch who kindly bought soccer clubs around the world and big boats ;D 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 22, 2021, 12:54:33 PM


Yes 97% of the Crimean people in favour of joining Russia seems legit alright!!

Russia have an excellent reputation for running free and fair democratic elections and referenda. . .

Very Trumpian of you to reject democracy.

If you're just going to regurgitate baseless Western propaganda then I will let you off. It's clear you only have agenda to pedal.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.


How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

I doubt Mildred will have the balls to address that question.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: JimStynes on February 22, 2021, 01:17:18 PM
Google is getting some hammering today.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:35:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.


How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

I doubt Mildred will have the balls to address that question.

I don't have to address it, they were held by Moscow against their will, otherwise they'd all still be part of Moscow.

Mildred, Milly, Millhouse, the list is getting bigger  ;D
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:35:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.


How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

I doubt Mildred will have the balls to address that question.

I don't have to address it, they were held by Moscow against their will, otherwise they'd all still be part of Moscow.

Mildred, Milly, Millhouse, the list is getting bigger  ;D

You can't really address it.

Russia is very open to the democratic will of  its people.

It's the west who have an issue with the fact that Russia actually respects democracy where they don't.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:42:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:35:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.


How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

I doubt Mildred will have the balls to address that question.

I don't have to address it, they were held by Moscow against their will, otherwise they'd all still be part of Moscow.

Mildred, Milly, Millhouse, the list is getting bigger  ;D

You can't really address it.

Russia is very open to the democratic will of  its people.

It's the west who have an issue with the fact that Russia actually respects democracy where they don't.

Address what? That they occupied these countries against their will? What's to address? So you think its ok to occupy countries, against their will like Israel?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:42:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:35:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.


How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

I doubt Mildred will have the balls to address that question.

I don't have to address it, they were held by Moscow against their will, otherwise they'd all still be part of Moscow.

Mildred, Milly, Millhouse, the list is getting bigger  ;D

You can't really address it.

Russia is very open to the democratic will of  its people.

It's the west who have an issue with the fact that Russia actually respects democracy where they don't.

Address what? That they occupied these countries against their will? What's to address? So you think its ok to occupy countries, against their will like Israel?

What countries do Russia occupy against their will?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:49:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:42:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:35:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.


How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

I doubt Mildred will have the balls to address that question.

I don't have to address it, they were held by Moscow against their will, otherwise they'd all still be part of Moscow.

Mildred, Milly, Millhouse, the list is getting bigger  ;D

You can't really address it.

Russia is very open to the democratic will of  its people.

It's the west who have an issue with the fact that Russia actually respects democracy where they don't.

Address what? That they occupied these countries against their will? What's to address? So you think its ok to occupy countries, against their will like Israel?

What countries do Russia occupy against their will?

They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.

There is more, if it wasn't against their will they would still be part of that set up surely?

Nationalist here and Scotland feel they are being occupied by a foreign country and want to be separated from British rule. You might have heard about it.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:49:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:42:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:35:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.


How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

I doubt Mildred will have the balls to address that question.

I don't have to address it, they were held by Moscow against their will, otherwise they'd all still be part of Moscow.

Mildred, Milly, Millhouse, the list is getting bigger  ;D

You can't really address it.

Russia is very open to the democratic will of  its people.

It's the west who have an issue with the fact that Russia actually respects democracy where they don't.

Address what? That they occupied these countries against their will? What's to address? So you think its ok to occupy countries, against their will like Israel?

What countries do Russia occupy against their will?

They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.

There is more, if it wasn't against their will they would still be part of that set up surely?

Nationalist here and Scotland feel they are being occupied by a foreign country and want to be separated from British rule. You might have heard about it.

That's another question you have shit yourself over.

Not a very brave or confident poster are you?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on February 22, 2021, 02:02:00 PM
There is a travel blogger on YouTube, he goes to a lot of ex-soviet states. It's funny, a lot of the people in parts of the like of Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova etc prefer when the Soviets had power.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:49:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:42:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:35:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 01:14:56 PM
They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.


How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

I doubt Mildred will have the balls to address that question.

I don't have to address it, they were held by Moscow against their will, otherwise they'd all still be part of Moscow.

Mildred, Milly, Millhouse, the list is getting bigger  ;D

You can't really address it.

Russia is very open to the democratic will of  its people.

It's the west who have an issue with the fact that Russia actually respects democracy where they don't.

Address what? That they occupied these countries against their will? What's to address? So you think its ok to occupy countries, against their will like Israel?

What countries do Russia occupy against their will?

They only wanted what was fair for East Germany, Poland, Hungry, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia (and its internal countries) Albania, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Ukraine.

There is more, if it wasn't against their will they would still be part of that set up surely?

Nationalist here and Scotland feel they are being occupied by a foreign country and want to be separated from British rule. You might have heard about it.

That's another question you have shit yourself over.

Not a very brave or confident poster are you?

You make no sense, when the debate goes against you, you start to waffle.

You are defending a country which (regardless of the news reports you listen to) occupied and took its natural resources for its own gain, just like USA and any of the countries like Britain, France Holland, Belgium Portugal and Spain did over 100' years. Like Israel is doing now.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 02:16:30 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:07:41 PM

You make no sense, when the debate goes against you, you start to waffle.

You are defending a country which (regardless of the news reports you listen to) occupied and took its natural resources for its own gain, just like USA and any of the countries like Britain, France Holland, Belgium Portugal and Spain did over 100' years. Like Israel is doing now.

Now, now. I am in charge of the debate here, you have been asked a few simple questions pertinent to incorrect assertions you made and you shit yourself rather than address them. You clearly don't back yourself.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 02:17:53 PM
Quote from: cockhead on February 22, 2021, 02:16:30 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:07:41 PM

You make no sense, when the debate goes against you, you start to waffle.

You are defending a country which (regardless of the news reports you listen to) occupied and took its natural resources for its own gain, just like USA and any of the countries like Britain, France Holland, Belgium Portugal and Spain did over 100' years. Like Israel is doing now.

Now, now. I am in charge of the debate here, you have been asked a few simple questions pertinent to incorrect assertions you made and you shit yourself rather than address them. You clearly don't back yourself.

No, you decided that occupying countries is ok
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 02:21:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 02:17:53 PM
Quote from: cockhead on February 22, 2021, 02:16:30 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:07:41 PM

You make no sense, when the debate goes against you, you start to waffle.

You are defending a country which (regardless of the news reports you listen to) occupied and took its natural resources for its own gain, just like USA and any of the countries like Britain, France Holland, Belgium Portugal and Spain did over 100' years. Like Israel is doing now.

Now, now. I am in charge of the debate here, you have been asked a few simple questions pertinent to incorrect assertions you made and you shit yourself rather than address them. You clearly don't back yourself.

No, you decided that occupying countries is ok

You did.

I didn't and now you want answer questions of factually incorrect statements you made.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 02:24:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 02:21:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 02:17:53 PM
Quote from: cockhead on February 22, 2021, 02:16:30 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:07:41 PM

You make no sense, when the debate goes against you, you start to waffle.

You are defending a country which (regardless of the news reports you listen to) occupied and took its natural resources for its own gain, just like USA and any of the countries like Britain, France Holland, Belgium Portugal and Spain did over 100' years. Like Israel is doing now.

Now, now. I am in charge of the debate here, you have been asked a few simple questions pertinent to incorrect assertions you made and you shit yourself rather than address them. You clearly don't back yourself.

No, you decided that occupying countries is ok

You did.

I didn't and now you want answer questions of factually incorrect statements you made.

You've asked no questions, this is your daft get out anytime it goes against you.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 02:25:48 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:24:15 PM


You've asked no questions, this is your daft get out anytime it goes against you.

How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

What countries do Russia occupy against their will?

See if you can find a pair of balls on yourself and answer these.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Louther on February 22, 2021, 02:32:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 02:16:30 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:07:41 PM

You make no sense, when the debate goes against you, you start to waffle.

You are defending a country which (regardless of the news reports you listen to) occupied and took its natural resources for its own gain, just like USA and any of the countries like Britain, France Holland, Belgium Portugal and Spain did over 100' years. Like Israel is doing now.

Now, now. I am in charge of the debate here, you have been asked a few simple questions pertinent to incorrect assertions you made and you shit yourself rather than address them. You clearly don't back yourself.

Genuinely has to be a WUM coming out this this. Bonkers.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Cockhead on February 22, 2021, 02:25:48 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:24:15 PM


You've asked no questions, this is your daft get out anytime it goes against you.

How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

What countries do Russia occupy against their will?

See if you can find a pair of balls on yourself and answer these.

I listed the countries.

How many wars? I don't know what that has to do with occupying countries that don't belong to you and during that period of occupation they took all their natural resources
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on February 22, 2021, 02:55:01 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on February 22, 2021, 01:17:18 PM
Google is getting some hammering today.

Wikipedia!!
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on February 22, 2021, 02:58:15 PM
Quote from: Louther on February 22, 2021, 02:32:07 PM

Genuinely has to be a WUM coming out this this. Bonkers.
He's not

He's produced enough material that psychiatrists could do an entire conference on his neuroses and insecurities

His self hatred must be off the scale
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 04:24:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Cockhead on February 22, 2021, 02:25:48 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:24:15 PM


You've asked no questions, this is your daft get out anytime it goes against you.

How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

What countries do Russia occupy against their will?

See if you can find a pair of balls on yourself and answer these.

I listed the countries.

How many wars? I don't know what that has to do with occupying countries that don't belong to you and during that period of occupation they took all their natural resources

Russia don't occupy those countries.

So you don't know the answer to the second question? Well that removes any credibility from your assertion.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 04:25:35 PM
The Angelo addicts are triggered today.

It's only Monday, guys.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 04:30:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 22, 2021, 04:24:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 22, 2021, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Cockhead on February 22, 2021, 02:25:48 PM
Quote from: Mildred on February 22, 2021, 02:24:15 PM


You've asked no questions, this is your daft get out anytime it goes against you.

How many wars took place in those countries post WW2?

What countries do Russia occupy against their will?

See if you can find a pair of balls on yourself and answer these.

I listed the countries.

How many wars? I don't know what that has to do with occupying countries that don't belong to you and during that period of occupation they took all their natural resources

Russia don't occupy those countries.

So you don't know the answer to the second question? Well that removes any credibility from your assertion.

Ah, so you are only dealing with things currently? That's great to know, so going forward don't dip into the past and use it as a fact, as it will be irrelevant.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 10, 2021, 08:59:17 PM
I haven't posted here for a while, but after the events in Palestine over the past few days, I signed back in again....

In the past few hours, airstrikes on Gaza have left 20 innocent people dead, 9 of them children.

This followed a day where Israeli settlers and the IDF attacked Al Asqa this morning injuring over 300 people.

Then this evening, Palestinian resistance groups fired a barrage of rockets.

Now doubt Israel will go on a full attack on the besieged strip over the coming hours and days possibly,
and they wont care how many innocent people are killed.

It's going to be a tough time ahead unfortunatley
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 10, 2021, 09:17:45 PM
Heartbreaking again for the Palestinians...

Free free Gaza, free free Palestine. SaveSheikhJarrah...end apartheid.

Support the BDS movement.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 10, 2021, 10:11:11 PM
The scenes on tv at the minute are horrendous, seen a repeat of the corporals deaths at Casement.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on May 10, 2021, 10:21:21 PM
The West's continued support of the bigoted zionist state is beyond a disgrace at this point.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2021, 06:06:53 AM

Zionism is based on 19th and early 20th century ideas about inferior races. The planners of the settlement project assumed the Palestinians would be gone by now.
Zionism refuses to recognise the humanity of Palestinians.

And it's in trouble in the West because of systemic human rights abuses. The Zionist movement in the UK was involved in the efforts to discredit Corbyn and replace him because they didn't want a left wing government endangering the Occupation.

It's going to go tits up.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Armagh18 on May 11, 2021, 07:10:56 AM
Watching the news last night and got serious DUP vibes. Yer man interviewed could have been Sammy Wilson or Jim Allister. The Israelis love their flegs as well.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on May 11, 2021, 08:01:13 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 11, 2021, 07:10:56 AM
Watching the news last night and got serious DUP vibes. Yer man interviewed could have been Sammy Wilson or Jim Allister. The Israelis love their flegs as well.

And this wasn't obviously caused by the Jerusalem day march through the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem...

So many parallels to here at times its unreal.

Raab is an odious, hateful hoor.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2021, 08:12:39 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 11, 2021, 08:01:13 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 11, 2021, 07:10:56 AM
Watching the news last night and got serious DUP vibes. Yer man interviewed could have been Sammy Wilson or Jim Allister. The Israelis love their flegs as well.

And this wasn't obviously caused by the Jerusalem day march through the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem...

So many parallels to here at times its unreal.

Raab is an odious, hateful hoor.
Of course there are parallels because of settler colonialism. The same history of dispossession, polarisation and domination
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: smelmoth on May 11, 2021, 11:10:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 11, 2021, 08:12:39 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 11, 2021, 08:01:13 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 11, 2021, 07:10:56 AM
Watching the news last night and got serious DUP vibes. Yer man interviewed could have been Sammy Wilson or Jim Allister. The Israelis love their flegs as well.

And this wasn't obviously caused by the Jerusalem day march through the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem...

So many parallels to here at times its unreal.

Raab is an odious, hateful hoor.
Of course there are parallels because of settler colonialism. The same history of dispossession, polarisation and domination

The Newsnight performances of both sides were shameful.

The whole thing is a disaster. Or at least it would have been if Trump hadn't sorted it all out.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J70 on May 12, 2021, 02:58:58 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Palestinians getting evicted in East Jerusalem.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 12, 2021, 03:35:23 AM
Eviction is decidedly the wrong word here J70.  As this guy explains in poignant detail

https://twitter.com/OmarMouallem/status/1392084879702040578?s=20 (https://twitter.com/OmarMouallem/status/1392084879702040578?s=20)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 12, 2021, 03:38:34 AM
Glad to see that the blatantly antisemitic post from May 11th has been deleted.  Thank you mods. 

That kind of bigoted nonsense only serves to strengthen the case of those who argue that criticism of Israel's apartheid policies is in and of itself antisemitism.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2021, 09:09:18 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?
Political vacuum in Israel. Netanyahu couldn't form a government. Settlers started evictions of Palestinians in East Jerusalem. Riot police entered the holiest Muslim mosque

This is a good timeline

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-gaza-aqsa-attack-netanyahu-chaos
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: dillinger on May 12, 2021, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Well we could start at the Koran that orders the killing of all Jews.
Update it a bit and its the Palestinian leaders ordering it.
Continuation of Irans proxy war against Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on May 12, 2021, 10:00:17 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 12, 2021, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Well we could start at the Koran that orders the killing of all Jews.
Update it a bit and its the Palestinian leaders ordering it.
Continuation of Irans proxy war against Israel.
Those poor Israelis. I wonder how many children they'll murder today.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on May 12, 2021, 10:11:24 AM
20 children murdered so far and then they wonder why the Gazan people don't love them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 12, 2021, 10:48:15 AM
What would actually force Israel to back off, keep the land they have and stop forcing evictions and land stealing? Along with all the other stuff they are currently doing?

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2021, 11:55:42 AM
https://www.ft.com/content/45e8309c-d0e0-4633-b259-f6ce83bd4e34

The risk of a new Middle East war Hamas and Israel must de-escalate THE EDITORIAL BOARD  12 May 2021
The long-simmering conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has boiled over once more as Israeli jets pound the hemmed-in Gaza strip and Palestinian militants launch hundreds of rockets into the Jewish state. A repeat of the 2014 Gaza war, when more than 2,000 Palestinians and 73 Israelis, mostly soldiers, were killed, is a real threat. Both sides need to de-escalate and avoid a conflict that will serve hardliners in each camp, heap more misery on long-suffering Palestinians trapped in Gaza and expose Israelis' vulnerability. The latest violence did not begin in Gaza, controlled by Hamas, the militant group. Instead its roots are in Jerusalem where Israeli police entered the compound that houses al-Aqsa mosque, Islam's third holiest site, using rubber bullets and "skunk" gas against stone-throwing Palestinian protesters.

The compound, known to Muslims as the Haram ash-Sharif or Noble Sanctuary and Jews as Temple Mount, is sacred to both religions and one of the conflict's most emotive flashpoints. Tempers were already inflamed over Israeli plans to evict Palestinians from their homes in occupied East Jerusalem to make way for Jewish settlers. Images of Israeli police using force against Palestinians protesting restrictions near al-Aqsa mosque in the holy month of Ramadan were always going to further incite tensions. Hamas sought to capitalise on the anger and fired rockets towards Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Israeli cities close to Gaza.

For Israelis, the worst violence in seven years should shatter the perception fostered by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the occupation of the West Bank and the siege of Gaza do not have consequences for Israel's security. Netanyahu has spent a decade convincing voters that Israel can be safe and enjoy healthy international relations without making concessions to Palestinians. It is a strategy that enabled him to become Israel's longest serving prime minister, while steering the country to the right. He has been aided by the meek responses of the US and European capitals to the creeping colonisation of the West Bank, as well as Gulf states that engaged with Israel to serve their own interests of countering Iran.

The United Arab Emirates' decision to normalise diplomatic ties with Israel last year formalised the Middle East's worst-kept secret. The so-called Abraham accords — Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco followed the UAE's lead — were sealed in the final throes of Donald Trump's presidency, during which he pursued an unabashedly pro-Israeli stance towards the conflict. Palestinians are now more marginalised than ever. Lingering hopes of a two-state solution have been dashed. But there is no victory for Israel. Instead, its actions trickle fuel into a highly combustible environment. Explosions can happen any time. And, as the rapid escalation proves,

Hamas will be quick to exploit crises as it seeks to bolster its claims of Palestinian leadership. But riots by Arabs in Israel towns also underscore the pent-up anger of ordinary Palestinians. When the Abraham accords were signed they were hailed in Israel and western capitals as representing a significant step towards ending the protracted Arab-Israeli conflict. Yet this week's violence shows there can be no peace as long as the Palestinians are sidelined and under occupation. The Biden administration has sought to reverse Trump's pro-Israeli bias. Now it and its allies must exert pressure on Israel and the Palestinians to end the killing. The tougher challenge is to find a viable way to revive the moribund peace process. The status quo only promises bloodshed.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on May 12, 2021, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 12, 2021, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Well we could start at the Koran that orders the killing of all Jews.
Update it a bit and its the Palestinian leaders ordering it.
Continuation of Irans proxy war against Israel.

What bit of the Koran?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on May 12, 2021, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on May 12, 2021, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 12, 2021, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Well we could start at the Koran that orders the killing of all Jews.
Update it a bit and its the Palestinian leaders ordering it.
Continuation of Irans proxy war against Israel.

What bit of the Koran?

Is there not a bit in the old testament about the promised land or something? I gave up on fiction years ago so haven't touched it in ages let alone the loons and their rapture.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: HiMucker on May 12, 2021, 03:29:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 12, 2021, 10:48:15 AM
What would actually force Israel to back off, keep the land they have and stop forcing evictions and land stealing? Along with all the other stuff they are currently doing?
They need to give land back for a start! Everyone can do their bit. Look up the BDS movement. People can actively make changes in their everyday lives that would hit the Israeli exchequer. It is an absolute disgrace what they have done and are continuing to do and get away with. For what its worth I don't think the Israeli state can survive long term as a civilized nation in the western world, because of what they are doing, but that still may be far far too late for the Palestinians. Anyone who wants to get a better understanding of the situation, read "Goliath, life and loathing in greater Israel" by Max Blumental. An American Jewish author who is now conveniently banned from ever entering Israel again. It is a fantastic read. A couple of snippets from the book. Israel used to finance soldiers to go on trips to Holocaust memorial sites in Europe, then pulled the plug, as it started to become clear that soldiers who went on these trips, became far more sympathetic towards the Palestinians, just in the same way Holocaust survivors and their relatives are much more sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, than that of the general population.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2021, 04:33:01 PM
Israel is running apartheid.


https://www.ft.com/content/45e8309c-d0e0-4633-b259-f6ce83bd4e34

For Israelis, the worst violence in seven years should shatter the perception fostered by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the occupation of the West Bank and the siege of Gaza do not have consequences for Israel's security.

Lingering hopes of a two-state solution have been dashed. But there is no victory for Israel. Instead, its actions trickle fuel into a highly combustible environment. Explosions can happen any time. And, as the rapid escalation proves, Hamas will be quick to exploit crises as it seeks to bolster its claims of Palestinian leadership. But riots by Arabs in Israel towns also underscore the pent-up anger of ordinary Palestinians.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2021, 06:13:00 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 12, 2021, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on May 12, 2021, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 12, 2021, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Well we could start at the Koran that orders the killing of all Jews.
Update it a bit and its the Palestinian leaders ordering it.
Continuation of Irans proxy war against Israel.

What bit of the Koran?

Is there not a bit in the old testament about the promised land or something? I gave up on fiction years ago so haven't touched it in ages let alone the loons and their rapture.
the promised land is Portadown
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on May 12, 2021, 06:29:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 12, 2021, 06:13:00 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 12, 2021, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on May 12, 2021, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 12, 2021, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Well we could start at the Koran that orders the killing of all Jews.
Update it a bit and its the Palestinian leaders ordering it.
Continuation of Irans proxy war against Israel.

What bit of the Koran?

Is there not a bit in the old testament about the promised land or something? I gave up on fiction years ago so haven't touched it in ages let alone the loons and their rapture.
the promised land is Portadown

I am currently in Portadown. I can assure you. It's not.

That guy posting about all Jews being liars and whatnot. Please stop. That doesn't help anyone
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2021, 08:11:44 PM
Israelis in Lod were complaining about a pogrom after 54 years of military occupation of Gaza
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 12, 2021, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 12, 2021, 06:29:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 12, 2021, 06:13:00 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 12, 2021, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on May 12, 2021, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 12, 2021, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Well we could start at the Koran that orders the killing of all Jews.
Update it a bit and its the Palestinian leaders ordering it.
Continuation of Irans proxy war against Israel.

What bit of the Koran?

Is there not a bit in the old testament about the promised land or something? I gave up on fiction years ago so haven't touched it in ages let alone the loons and their rapture.
the promised land is Portadown

I am currently in Portadown. I can assure you. It's not.

That guy posting about all Jews being liars and whatnot. Please stop. That doesn't help anyone

Thankfully the Mods have deleted that despicable post earlier referring to Jewish people
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on May 13, 2021, 01:15:30 AM
You know a few years ago back in the day I remember English news papers were not allowed in the house. Not a huge surprise really for a large Catholic family at the time, considering the huge amount of depravity and anti Irish sentiment they published.

But not too many people are probably actually aware that depravity can destroy and ruin families. It is used as a form of control. It is a huge part of the spiritual war. Like back in 1919 in the United States 1200 Communists entered the Catholic Church with the sole purpose of destroying it from within. Not to many Catholics are probably even aware of this fact.

Same spiritual war still going on today in Palestine.

One very unambiguous evidence was given by the I.D.F. in 2002. After occupying the West Bank town of Ramallah, the Israeli occupation forces seized the local television stations and began broadcasting hard-core pornography to "psychologically shock and demoralize the residents". They put a curfew on people and told them if they leave the house after a certain time they would be shot".

You see there is no depth of perversnes that (((they))) will go to to achieve their goals.  Killing innocent children doesn't enter their conscience.

But two weeks prior to this latest genocide,  a Palestinian friend of my brother's predicted trouble a head for the Palestinians. He said anytime Netanyahu is in trouble at home they take their anger out on them.

Unfortunately he was right.




Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on May 13, 2021, 06:39:54 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 12, 2021, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 12, 2021, 06:29:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 12, 2021, 06:13:00 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 12, 2021, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on May 12, 2021, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 12, 2021, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

Well we could start at the Koran that orders the killing of all Jews.
Update it a bit and its the Palestinian leaders ordering it.
Continuation of Irans proxy war against Israel.

What bit of the Koran?

Is there not a bit in the old testament about the promised land or something? I gave up on fiction years ago so haven't touched it in ages let alone the loons and their rapture.
the promised land is Portadown

I am currently in Portadown. I can assure you. It's not.

That guy posting about all Jews being liars and whatnot. Please stop. That doesn't help anyone

Thankfully the Mods have deleted that despicable post earlier referring to Jewish people

People need to realise there is a difference between zionists and Jews. There are plenty of Jews - look at the likes of JVP - who are against what Israel is doing to Palestine
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: screenexile on May 13, 2021, 09:23:11 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 12, 2021, 12:08:37 AM
What caused this round of conflict to kick off?

https://twitter.com/IainDale/status/1392755854890479616?s=20

Good explainer here. This isn't going to end anytime soon it looks like.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 13, 2021, 11:40:07 PM
The past hour has seen some very heavy bombardment from the Israelis.

I was watching some video's and it's hard to count the amount of bombs they are dropping from land sea and air.

There is chaos everywhere with nowhere safe.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 13, 2021, 11:52:17 PM
Gaza on fire tonight

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1TWrl9XsAEG8uv?format=jpg&name=360x360)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: TheGreatest on May 14, 2021, 08:33:01 AM
Israel attacking Irelands health I.T infrastructure overnight...
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: general_lee on May 14, 2021, 11:33:15 AM
Death toll rising. 119 Palestinians dead, over 800 injured. Israelis are shameless.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 14, 2021, 01:05:54 PM
An excellent, long read on the case for Palestinian right to return.

https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/ (https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2021, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 14, 2021, 01:05:54 PM
An excellent, long read on the case for Palestinian right to return.

https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/ (https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/)
I read that last night and would highly recommend it

I myself have long believed a one state Bosnia type federal plan is the only even remotely plausible one

Israel really does have the most urgent moral duty to give full Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians in the occupied territories

It can only be precipitated by wide ranging South Africa style sanctions against Israel by the international community

That means the woke left in the US are Palestine's only hope, Democrats like Biden, Pelosi and the Boyle brothers sure won't cut it



Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on May 14, 2021, 02:14:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2021, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 14, 2021, 01:05:54 PM
An excellent, long read on the case for Palestinian right to return.

https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/ (https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/)
I read that last night and would highly recommend it

I myself have long believed a one state Bosnia type federal plan is the only even remotely plausible one

Israel really does have the most urgent moral duty to give full Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians in the occupied territories

It can only be precipitated by wide ranging South Africa style sanctions against Israel by the international community

That means the woke left in the US are Palestine's only hope, Democrats like Biden, Pelosi and the Boyle brothers sure won't cut it

Sid, can you recommend any further reading on the one state Bosnia solution you mention. The whole Balkans war and situation is not one I am overly familiar with at all
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on May 14, 2021, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 14, 2021, 02:14:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2021, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 14, 2021, 01:05:54 PM
An excellent, long read on the case for Palestinian right to return.

https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/ (https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/)
I read that last night and would highly recommend it

I myself have long believed a one state Bosnia type federal plan is the only even remotely plausible one

Israel really does have the most urgent moral duty to give full Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians in the occupied territories

It can only be precipitated by wide ranging South Africa style sanctions against Israel by the international community

That means the woke left in the US are Palestine's only hope, Democrats like Biden, Pelosi and the Boyle brothers sure won't cut it

Sid, can you recommend any further reading on the one state Bosnia solution you mention. The whole Balkans war and situation is not one I am overly familiar with at all

There's a great 5 hour documentary that the BBC did on the Yugoslavia war available on YouTube.

Peter Taylor does it and it's a brilliant documentary, was produced in the 90s.

Death of Yugoslavia is the name of it
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 14, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Peter Taylor doesn't do The Death Of Yugoslavia.

It is a BBC production however.

Basically Bosnia is made up of two autonomous federal republics, one controlled by the Muslims and one by the Serbs, called the Republika Srpska.

This was the agreement brokered at Dayton in 1995 which ended the war - the Serbs had been after an expanded Serbia.

It think this system might have a chance of working in Israel/Palestine, with the West Bank/Gaza being an autonomous republic within a Greater Israel/Palestine, but everybody having the same citizenship rights. An overarching constitution would have to be very carefully and painstakingly drawn up to balance rights for both sides.

I think the series is very much worth watching, particularly with a view to how nationalistic rabble rousers can cause a red mist to descend over populations and turn on their neighbours. Milosevic himself was one of the catalysts when he travelled to a Serb part of Kosovo in 1987 and ran with a minor local political squabble which was to eventually escalate all the way to war.

There's a documentary called A Town Called Kozarac which I watched once when first broadcast, I see it's up on YouTube. My memory of it is that it focuses on personal stories of neighbours of different ethnicities turning viciously against each other, I must watch it again.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on May 14, 2021, 07:07:05 PM
Cheers fellas. I will look those up
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: bannside on May 16, 2021, 04:22:36 AM
https://twitter.com/emanmoh20541441/status/1393544414753140740?s=24

Shocking what's going on. World leaders failing miserably to deal with this. Sanctions should be put in place and kick the Israeli ambassadors out of every self respecting country.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2021, 05:26:38 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Peter Taylor doesn't do The Death Of Yugoslavia.

It is a BBC production however.

Basically Bosnia is made up of two autonomous federal republics, one controlled by the Muslims and one by the Serbs, called the Republika Srpska.

This was the agreement brokered at Dayton in 1995 which ended the war - the Serbs had been after an expanded Serbia.

It think this system might have a chance of working in Israel/Palestine, with the West Bank/Gaza being an autonomous republic within a Greater Israel/Palestine, but everybody having the same citizenship rights. An overarching constitution would have to be very carefully and painstakingly drawn up to balance rights for both sides.

I think the series is very much worth watching, particularly with a view to how nationalistic rabble rousers can cause a red mist to descend over populations and turn on their neighbours. Milosevic himself was one of the catalysts when he travelled to a Serb part of Kosovo in 1987 and ran with a minor local political squabble which was to eventually escalate all the way to war.

There's a documentary called A Town Called Kozarac which I watched once when first broadcast, I see it's up on YouTube. My memory of it is that it focuses on personal stories of neighbours of different ethnicities turning viciously against each other, I must watch it again.

Bosnia is a mess. The West only cared about stopping the war. Most of the young people emigrated. The history is different too.
Bosnia is a result of the collapses of the Ottoman and Hapsburg empires.

Israel is settler colonialism like Northern Ireland .

Settler colonialism features:
Domination over the locals
systematic oppression
cultural destruction
violence

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Armagh18 on May 16, 2021, 06:28:01 AM
Quote from: bannside on May 16, 2021, 04:22:36 AM
https://twitter.com/emanmoh20541441/status/1393544414753140740?s=24

Shocking what's going on. World leaders failing miserably to deal with this. Sanctions should be put in place and kick the Israeli ambassadors out of every self respecting country.
should have happened years ago
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2021, 07:28:36 AM
Biden is not going to do anything
https://www.ft.com/content/857a6617-d87f-41f3-82ce-5decbc99d348

Biden seems determined to avoid being diverted. He has had only a brief call with Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu. His national security team has been working the phones, but he sent only a mid-level State Department official to the region to work on a ceasefire. And he is holding off any attempt by the UN Security Council to intervene. Essentially, he is leaving Israel to deal with the crisis on its own. Contrast this with the last Gaza war in 2014, when secretary of state John Kerry rushed to the region and worked on a ceasefire with Turkey and Qatar, only to have it rejected by Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 16, 2021, 08:49:12 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 14, 2021, 07:07:05 PM
Cheers fellas. I will look those up

It's very good....
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on May 16, 2021, 08:57:03 AM
The West are an embarrassment.

Will act the tough guy if Russia do something but happy yo have the Israelis engage in ethnic cleansing.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 16, 2021, 09:43:04 AM
The West certainly is an embarrassment as regards Israel

It's touching, incredibly naive and in some ways quite funny that anybody would think that Russia is in any way different as regards Israel

Putin and Netanyahu are peas in a pod

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: BennyCake on May 16, 2021, 12:16:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 16, 2021, 09:43:04 AM
The West certainly is an embarrassment as regards Israel

It's touching, incredibly naive and in some ways quite funny that anybody would think that Russia is in any way different as regards Israel

Putin and Netanyahu are peas in a pod

You mean Doctor or Colonel Putin? ;)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2021, 06:54:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPL5rTp7DYc
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2021, 09:32:15 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/eaf20221-1074-4bb4-9677-9091a5c31b1e

over the past week, Netanyahu's plan for securing Israel's future has collapsed. The Israeli prime minister's hope that the Palestinian issue was safely sidelined has proved to be a delusion. A dispute which started with clashes between Israeli police and Muslim protesters in Jerusalem has escalated — with rockets being fired at Israeli cities, Israel bombing Gaza and violent clashes between Arabs and Jews breaking out across Israel. With the encouragement of the Trump administration, the Netanyahu government had followed what some called the "outside-in" strategy. This was the idea that Israel should pursue agreements with the outside world, above all the Arab world, to help solve its internal conflict with the Palestinians. This was a reversal of the more traditional "inside-out" approach to the conflict — which held that Israel first had to secure a settlement with the Palestinians; and only then could expect to achieve a durable peace and international acceptance. The signing of the Abraham accords was brandished as evidence that the outside-in strategy was working. Israel hoped that Saudi Arabia, the most powerful country in the Arab world, would be next to establish diplomatic relations. As for the Palestinians, the hubristic hope in Netanyahu's circle was that, deprived of Arab and international support, they would lose the will to resist. Human rights activists could continue to support their cause but the wider world would move on, allowing Israel to impose its own terms on a weakened and dispersed Palestinian population. Some Israelis speculated that the Palestinians might end up like the Tibetans — a people whose national aspirations look increasingly forlorn and forgotten. The rockets raining down on Israel's cities from Gaza have inflicted grave damage not just on property and citizens, but on that strategy too. The hope that Netanyahu's policies had rendered the Palestinian issue irrelevant now looks foolish. International condemnation of Israeli actions has revived, spurred on by civilian deaths in Gaza, including many children. Further Israeli diplomatic breakthroughs look unlikely. Most serious of all, the brutal clashes between Jews and Israeli-Arabs, who make up 20 per cent of the population of the country, have brought the conflict inside the borders of Israel itself, leading to talk of civil war. In recent years, many Israeli politicians had come to hope and believe that Arabs living inside the country were no longer identifying so strongly with the Palestinian cause. But the current crisis has brought a renewed sense of unity between Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and Israel itself. The idea that the Palestinian problem could be safely walled-off, out of sight, is no longer credible. Instead, Netanyahu's strategy may have increased the threat to his country — by inadvertently opening up a new front, within Israel itself. That threat will remain, even after the pummelling of Gaza has stopped. Recommended Rachman Review podcast21 min listen A crisis in the Middle East The major flaw in the outside-in strategy was its assumption that Palestinian despair would lead to quiescence. In reality, the increasing boldness of the Israeli far right — which is determined to push ahead with further annexations of Palestinian property and land — eventually provided the spark that ignited the latest conflagration. The far right had itself been courted and legitimised by Netanyahu, as he sought allies in his efforts to hang on to power.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Main Street on May 17, 2021, 11:43:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 16, 2021, 05:26:38 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 14, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Peter Taylor doesn't do The Death Of Yugoslavia.

It is a BBC production however.

Basically Bosnia is made up of two autonomous federal republics, one controlled by the Muslims and one by the Serbs, called the Republika Srpska.

This was the agreement brokered at Dayton in 1995 which ended the war - the Serbs had been after an expanded Serbia.

It think this system might have a chance of working in Israel/Palestine, with the West Bank/Gaza being an autonomous republic within a Greater Israel/Palestine, but everybody having the same citizenship rights. An overarching constitution would have to be very carefully and painstakingly drawn up to balance rights for both sides.

I think the series is very much worth watching, particularly with a view to how nationalistic rabble rousers can cause a red mist to descend over populations and turn on their neighbours. Milosevic himself was one of the catalysts when he travelled to a Serb part of Kosovo in 1987 and ran with a minor local political squabble which was to eventually escalate all the way to war.

There's a documentary called A Town Called Kozarac which I watched once when first broadcast, I see it's up on YouTube. My memory of it is that it focuses on personal stories of neighbours of different ethnicities turning viciously against each other, I must watch it again.

Bosnia is a mess. The West only cared about stopping the war. Most of the young people emigrated. The history is different too.
Bosnia is a result of the collapses of the Ottoman and Hapsburg empires.

Israel is settler colonialism like Northern Ireland .

Settler colonialism features:
Domination over the locals
systematic oppression
cultural destruction
violence
It was worse than NI, much much worse , so much worse as to resemble no comparison.
Nordie nationalists were not forcibly removed  without warning from their homes as the 700,000 Palestinians were in 1948 and force-marched to a place across the border, they were not murdered in cold blood in their thousands and the women were not raped by the righteous in their thousands, furthermore their empty homes were not ransacked by the righteous who plundered anything of value.
In contrast, Nordies had it decent enough in the orange statelet under their orange master overlords.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:07:52 AM
Palestine needs to develop an extensive international lobby along the lines of what Israel has

It needs to counter the lies, its talking heads internationally need to be exceptionally well versed in how to frame arguments in a non threatening way

It absolutely has justice and truth on its side and the vast majority of people internationally who have a genuine interest in this conflict and its history are on the side of the Palestinian people

Palestine's leaders have undoubtedly failed their people however, it is impossible to see progress as long as Fatah and Hamas rule the roost in the internal Palestinian political sphere

It is shuddering to imagine what would have happened in South Africa had Mandela and a couple of other key players around him not existed

Leadership matters
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 18, 2021, 12:43:58 AM
3 times this week the UN Security Council met.

Ireland has a seat on this council, and 3 times this week, the
USA under Joe Biden, has vetoed any attempts to intervene, including 3 refusals to call for a ceasefire.

Joe Biden is giving Israel the green light to continue with what they are doing, and not only that,
the week before the attacks began, he approved a $750 million mutations supply to Israel.

No doubt those bombs could have been used in the current attacks on Gaza.

I'm sick of hearing people say "we call on the international community to speak out and take action"

The International community, under the UN Security Council, is willing to speak out, but Joe Biden says no.

Because the USA has a veto over every UN Resolution, and they use it every time when it comes to Israel.

So much for democracy, and the International community speaking out.

So instead of calling out for the International community to speak out, how about those with close links to
Joe Biden here in Ireland pick up the phone, and who were proud to support him a few months ago, and which he capitalised on,
implore him to intervene and stop this bloodshed.

They have his number, and his ear.

Why are they not calling him themselves instead of asking others to do so?

Joe Biden likes to talk about how his ancestors left Ireland in 1850, and his ties to Louth and Mayo.

What would his ancestors think of him now as he green lights the death and destruction in Gaza before our eyes?

And don't start me on the Boyle brothers, the sons of Donegal, who are the leading cheerleaders for Israel.

Before the bodies of the 24 men women and children who were killed by Israeli airstrikes, were buried on Monday, 
Congressman Brendan Boyle issued a statement saying Israel had a right to defend itself.

It's high time we called out the great supporters of Ireland over their support for Israel.

It's time to call a spade a spade, and make Ireland a cold house for those Irish loving US politicians
who currently support the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

They need called out, and those who give them a platform, need to be called out as well.

The cow can't forget it was a calf.


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 18, 2021, 04:08:02 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:07:52 AM
Palestine needs to develop an extensive international lobby along the lines of what Israel has

It needs to counter the lies, its talking heads internationally need to be exceptionally well versed in how to frame arguments in a non threatening way

It absolutely has justice and truth on its side and the vast majority of people internationally who have a genuine interest in this conflict and its history are on the side of the Palestinian people

Palestine's leaders have undoubtedly failed their people however, it is impossible to see progress as long as Fatah and Hamas rule the roost in the internal Palestinian political sphere

It is shuddering to imagine what would have happened in South Africa had Mandela and a couple of other key players around him not existed

Leadership matters

Could not agree more. The best thing the Palestinians could do is adopt the "don't get mad, get organized" approach. But Israel makes that very difficult for them by meting out injustice after injustice. The victims have a sense of helplessness and desperation. It must feel like they're a doomed people and nobody is coming to their aid. God help them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 08:08:31 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:07:52 AM
Palestine needs to develop an extensive international lobby along the lines of what Israel has

It needs to counter the lies, its talking heads internationally need to be exceptionally well versed in how to frame arguments in a non threatening way

It absolutely has justice and truth on its side and the vast majority of people internationally who have a genuine interest in this conflict and its history are on the side of the Palestinian people

Palestine's leaders have undoubtedly failed their people however, it is impossible to see progress as long as Fatah and Hamas rule the roost in the internal Palestinian political sphere

It is shuddering to imagine what would have happened in South Africa had Mandela and a couple of other key players around him not existed

Leadership matters

South Africa had different demographic proportions- whites were about 10%.
Jews are around 50% in Greater Israel.

Another difference is the history of the Holocaust which Israel uses to deflect criticism over human rights abuses.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 08:54:18 AM
I wouldn't be up to knowledge of the conflict in the middle east and briefly look at the headlines and watch the odd documentary on it.

How is Hamas and Fata looked at be their own citizens? I take it there are local democratic elections and these political groups are voted in every year, are there opposing political leaders with a different approach?
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 09:57:33 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 18, 2021, 12:43:58 AM
3 times this week the UN Security Council met.

Ireland has a seat on this council, and 3 times this week, the
USA under Joe Biden, has vetoed any attempts to intervene, including 3 refusals to call for a ceasefire.

Joe Biden is giving Israel the green light to continue with what they are doing, and not only that,
the week before the attacks began, he approved a $750 million mutations supply to Israel.

No doubt those bombs could have been used in the current attacks on Gaza.

I'm sick of hearing people say "we call on the international community to speak out and take action"

The International community, under the UN Security Council, is willing to speak out, but Joe Biden says no.

Because the USA has a veto over every UN Resolution, and they use it every time when it comes to Israel.

So much for democracy, and the International community speaking out.

So instead of calling out for the International community to speak out, how about those with close links to
Joe Biden here in Ireland pick up the phone, and who were proud to support him a few months ago, and which he capitalised on,
implore him to intervene and stop this bloodshed.

They have his number, and his ear.

Why are they not calling him themselves instead of asking others to do so?

Joe Biden likes to talk about how his ancestors left Ireland in 1850, and his ties to Louth and Mayo.

What would his ancestors think of him now as he green lights the death and destruction in Gaza before our eyes?

And don't start me on the Boyle brothers, the sons of Donegal, who are the leading cheerleaders for Israel.

Before the bodies of the 24 men women and children who were killed by Israeli airstrikes, were buried on Monday, 
Congressman Brendan Boyle issued a statement saying Israel had a right to defend itself.

It's high time we called out the great supporters of Ireland over their support for Israel.

It's time to call a spade a spade, and make Ireland a cold house for those Irish loving US politicians
who currently support the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

They need called out, and those who give them a platform, need to be called out as well.

The cow can't forget it was a calf.
That's a good idea as regards Irish-America

I genuinely cannot understand how any Irish-American cannot see the parallels between Ireland and Palestine

It is either
i) a deliberate misunderstanding or rejection of Irish history
or
ii) cowardice

I think it's both actually

The start of the road to ending apartheid in South Africa was sporting boycotts

FIFA banned South Africa around about 1963/64 I think, that was followed by a cricket ban after the d'Oliveira affair around 1969

Steadily, the concept of ostracising South Africa from the international community became more and more common sense in the minds of the people of the international community

If Israel could be banned from, say UEFA events, or the Eurovision Song Contest, that would legitimise the concept of boycotting it internationally in a host of other areas, it would show that it is possible, and maybe it could grow from there

Whataboutery is a cancer on public debate and that's what Israel and its defenders do

They ask why do you want to boycott Israel, what about China,"that shows you're anti-Semitic!"

We need to come up with serious answers to these questions

Perhaps the Palestinian cause needs to ally firmly with the causes of other oppressed peoples such as the Uyghurs - and oppressed peoples in majority Muslim countries, such as the Kurds

There really needs to be some sort of a broad worldwide pro-freedom front encompassing oppressed peoples

What I do know is that whataboutery is a tool to enable tyranny and destroy good faith pubic debate




Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tiempo on May 18, 2021, 10:20:48 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 09:57:33 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 18, 2021, 12:43:58 AM
3 times this week the UN Security Council met.

Ireland has a seat on this council, and 3 times this week, the
USA under Joe Biden, has vetoed any attempts to intervene, including 3 refusals to call for a ceasefire.

Joe Biden is giving Israel the green light to continue with what they are doing, and not only that,
the week before the attacks began, he approved a $750 million mutations supply to Israel.

No doubt those bombs could have been used in the current attacks on Gaza.

I'm sick of hearing people say "we call on the international community to speak out and take action"

The International community, under the UN Security Council, is willing to speak out, but Joe Biden says no.

Because the USA has a veto over every UN Resolution, and they use it every time when it comes to Israel.

So much for democracy, and the International community speaking out.

So instead of calling out for the International community to speak out, how about those with close links to
Joe Biden here in Ireland pick up the phone, and who were proud to support him a few months ago, and which he capitalised on,
implore him to intervene and stop this bloodshed.

They have his number, and his ear.

Why are they not calling him themselves instead of asking others to do so?

Joe Biden likes to talk about how his ancestors left Ireland in 1850, and his ties to Louth and Mayo.

What would his ancestors think of him now as he green lights the death and destruction in Gaza before our eyes?

And don't start me on the Boyle brothers, the sons of Donegal, who are the leading cheerleaders for Israel.

Before the bodies of the 24 men women and children who were killed by Israeli airstrikes, were buried on Monday, 
Congressman Brendan Boyle issued a statement saying Israel had a right to defend itself.

It's high time we called out the great supporters of Ireland over their support for Israel.

It's time to call a spade a spade, and make Ireland a cold house for those Irish loving US politicians
who currently support the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

They need called out, and those who give them a platform, need to be called out as well.

The cow can't forget it was a calf.
That's a good idea as regards Irish-America

I genuinely cannot understand how any Irish-American cannot see the parallels between Ireland and Palestine

It is either
i) a deliberate misunderstanding or rejection of Irish history
or
ii) cowardice

I think it's both actually

The start of the road to ending apartheid in South Africa was sporting boycotts

FIFA banned South Africa around about 1963/64 I think, that was followed by a cricket ban after the d'Oliveira affair around 1969

Steadily, the concept of ostracising South Africa from the international community became more and more common sense in the minds of the people of the international community

If Israel could be banned from, say UEFA events, or the Eurovision Song Contest, that would legitimise the concept of boycotting it internationally in a host of other areas, it would show that it is possible, and maybe it could grow from there

Whataboutery is a cancer on public debate and that's what Israel and its defenders do

They ask why do you want to boycott Israel, what about China,"that shows you're anti-Semitic!"

We need to come up with serious answers to these questions

Perhaps the Palestinian cause needs to ally firmly with the causes of other oppressed peoples such as the Uyghurs - and oppressed peoples in majority Muslim countries, such as the Kurds

There really needs to be some sort of a broad worldwide pro-freedom front encompassing oppressed peoples

What I do know is that whataboutery is a tool to enable tyranny and destroy good faith pubic debate

Banned from UEFA and the song contest... the fact they are even in there in the first place shows the levels to which their lobby has infiltrated just about any organization that helps their propagandists. The Zionists are the modern day Nazi's; a bloodcurdling insult to the victims of the holocaust .
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on May 18, 2021, 10:38:18 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 08:54:18 AM
I wouldn't be up to knowledge of the conflict in the middle east and briefly look at the headlines and watch the odd documentary on it.

How is Hamas and Fata looked at be their own citizens? I take it there are local democratic elections and these political groups are voted in every year, are there opposing political leaders with a different approach?

A lot like political groups everywhere. Some like them. Some don't. Hamas in particular get a lot of dislike from Gazans.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 10:42:58 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 18, 2021, 10:38:18 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 08:54:18 AM
I wouldn't be up to knowledge of the conflict in the middle east and briefly look at the headlines and watch the odd documentary on it.

How is Hamas and Fata looked at be their own citizens? I take it there are local democratic elections and these political groups are voted in every year, are there opposing political leaders with a different approach?

A lot like political groups everywhere. Some like them. Some don't. Hamas in particular get a lot of dislike from Gazans.

But its two main groupings? Fatas and Hamas?

Its a horrible war and only the introduction of Russia and the US peace talks will solve it as no one else will be listened too. They won't solve it themselves at this rate
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on May 18, 2021, 10:46:30 AM
The U.S. could help by ending the non stop 100% support of the rogue State of Israel.
Biden won't even call for a truce ffs!
The EU need to pull all their Ambasdadors out of Israel, shut the Israeli embassies and cease all trade or other dealings with them.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 18, 2021, 10:46:30 AM
The U.S. could help by ending the non stop 100% support of the rogue State of Israel.
Biden won't even call for a truce ffs!
The EU need to pull all their Ambasdadors out of Israel, shut the Israeli embassies and cease all trade or other dealings with them.

So what are factors that keep the US out of Israel and not other countries? Would the current and previous governments lose elections over this and that's why continue to 'turn an blind eye' ?

Is there a wealthy benefactor that has a huge say in the politics of Israel? 

How governments with some sort of influence and not get involved is very telling.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 11:07:43 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 09:57:33 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 18, 2021, 12:43:58 AM
3 times this week the UN Security Council met.

Ireland has a seat on this council, and 3 times this week, the
USA under Joe Biden, has vetoed any attempts to intervene, including 3 refusals to call for a ceasefire.

Joe Biden is giving Israel the green light to continue with what they are doing, and not only that,
the week before the attacks began, he approved a $750 million mutations supply to Israel.

No doubt those bombs could have been used in the current attacks on Gaza.

I'm sick of hearing people say "we call on the international community to speak out and take action"

The International community, under the UN Security Council, is willing to speak out, but Joe Biden says no.

Because the USA has a veto over every UN Resolution, and they use it every time when it comes to Israel.

So much for democracy, and the International community speaking out.

So instead of calling out for the International community to speak out, how about those with close links to
Joe Biden here in Ireland pick up the phone, and who were proud to support him a few months ago, and which he capitalised on,
implore him to intervene and stop this bloodshed.

They have his number, and his ear.

Why are they not calling him themselves instead of asking others to do so?

Joe Biden likes to talk about how his ancestors left Ireland in 1850, and his ties to Louth and Mayo.

What would his ancestors think of him now as he green lights the death and destruction in Gaza before our eyes?

And don't start me on the Boyle brothers, the sons of Donegal, who are the leading cheerleaders for Israel.

Before the bodies of the 24 men women and children who were killed by Israeli airstrikes, were buried on Monday, 
Congressman Brendan Boyle issued a statement saying Israel had a right to defend itself.

It's high time we called out the great supporters of Ireland over their support for Israel.

It's time to call a spade a spade, and make Ireland a cold house for those Irish loving US politicians
who currently support the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

They need called out, and those who give them a platform, need to be called out as well.

The cow can't forget it was a calf.
That's a good idea as regards Irish-America

I genuinely cannot understand how any Irish-American cannot see the parallels between Ireland and Palestine

It is either
i) a deliberate misunderstanding or rejection of Irish history
or
ii) cowardice

I think it's both actually

The start of the road to ending apartheid in South Africa was sporting boycotts

FIFA banned South Africa around about 1963/64 I think, that was followed by a cricket ban after the d'Oliveira affair around 1969

Steadily, the concept of ostracising South Africa from the international community became more and more common sense in the minds of the people of the international community

If Israel could be banned from, say UEFA events, or the Eurovision Song Contest, that would legitimise the concept of boycotting it internationally in a host of other areas, it would show that it is possible, and maybe it could grow from there

Whataboutery is a cancer on public debate and that's what Israel and its defenders do

They ask why do you want to boycott Israel, what about China,"that shows you're anti-Semitic!"

We need to come up with serious answers to these questions

Perhaps the Palestinian cause needs to ally firmly with the causes of other oppressed peoples such as the Uyghurs - and oppressed peoples in majority Muslim countries, such as the Kurds

There really needs to be some sort of a broad worldwide pro-freedom front encompassing oppressed peoples

What I do know is that whataboutery is a tool to enable tyranny and destroy good faith pubic debate

Support for Palestine is a left wing thing. A lot of Irish Americans are hard core right wing. Trump employed loads of them.
Biden is a neoliberal and so are the Boyles.

Zionist power in DC is like Tammany Hall was. A small minority with outsized political power. Tammany Hall had to be destroyed by Mr Airport
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaHflVDIzZo

 
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: OgraAnDun on May 18, 2021, 11:11:33 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 18, 2021, 10:46:30 AM
The U.S. could help by ending the non stop 100% support of the rogue State of Israel.
Biden won't even call for a truce ffs!
The EU need to pull all their Ambasdadors out of Israel, shut the Israeli embassies and cease all trade or other dealings with them.

So what are factors that keep the US out of Israel and not other countries? Would the current and previous governments lose elections over this and that's why continue to 'turn an blind eye' ?

Is there a wealthy benefactor that has a huge say in the politics of Israel? 

How governments with some sort of influence and not get involved is very telling.

AIPAC is the answer in the US, the only place where it really matters given Washington's level of support for Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:30:33 AM
This passage is contained in "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies (2008)

...the most potent electric fence in the world is the one erected on behalf of the Israeli government...journalists who write stories which offend the politics of the Israeli lobby are subjected to a campaign of formal complaints and pressure on their editors; most of all, they are inundated with letters and emails which can be extravagant in their hostility...there is now a network of pro-Israel pressure groups who specialise in orchestrating complaints against the media. HonestReporting has offices in London, New York and Toronto and claims to have 140,000 members on whom it can call to drench media organisations in letters and emails (he goes on to describe many more pro-Israel pressure groups)...the result is that some facts become too dangerous: to report Palestinian casualties; to depict the Palestinians as victims of Israeli occupation; to refer to the historic ousting of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes; to refer to the killing of Palestinian civilians by Zionist groups in the 1940s...words become dangerous: to speak of 'occupied territories'; to describe Palestinian bombers as anything other than 'terrorists'; to reject the Israeli government euphemism of 'targeted killings'. Crucially, there is no lobby of similar force on the Palestinian side.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:35:20 AM
Quote from: tiempo on May 18, 2021, 10:20:48 AM

Banned from UEFA and the song contest... the fact they are even in there in the first place shows the levels to which their lobby has infiltrated just about any organization that helps their propagandists. The Zionists are the modern day Nazi's; a bloodcurdling insult to the victims of the holocaust .
I myself think the way the Israeli government behave towards the Palestinian people is an insult to the victims of the Holocaust but as soon as you start calling Israelis Nazis it is a disaster for the advancement of the Palestinian cause internationally, it is easy for Israel to frame such language as anti-Semitic - this is Israel's meat and drink in terms of neutralising opposition


Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 11:42:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:30:33 AM
This passage is contained in "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies (2008)

...the most potent electric fence in the world is the one erected on behalf of the Israeli government...journalists who write stories which offend the politics of the Israeli lobby are subjected to a campaign of formal complaints and pressure on their editors; most of all, they are inundated with letters and emails which can be extravagant in their hostility...there is now a network of pro-Israel pressure groups who specialise in orchestrating complaints against the media. HonestReporting has offices in London, New York and Toronto and claims to have 140,000 members on whom it can call to drench media organisations in letters and emails (he goes on to describe many more pro-Israel pressure groups)...the result is that some facts become too dangerous: to report Palestinian casualties; to depict the Palestinians as victims of Israeli occupation; to refer to the historic ousting of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes; to refer to the killing of Palestinian civilians by Zionist groups in the 1940s...words become dangerous: to speak of 'occupied territories'; to describe Palestinian bombers as anything other than 'terrorists'; to reject the Israeli government euphemism of 'targeted killings'. Crucially, there is no lobby of similar force on the Palestinian side.
I think things have changed somewhat since 2008. Jimmy Carter was excoriated for his book "Peace or Apartheid" because he dared to call the occupation apartheid.
Now they even use the word on MSNBC. Israeli spokespeople are seen as hysterical/groupthinking.

Netanyahu's strategy of reaching out to countries like Sudan (which needed to regain access to international markets) and the UAE while ignoring the Palestinians has failed. The future of Israel is very unclear.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tiempo on May 18, 2021, 11:52:26 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:35:20 AM
Quote from: tiempo on May 18, 2021, 10:20:48 AM

Banned from UEFA and the song contest... the fact they are even in there in the first place shows the levels to which their lobby has infiltrated just about any organization that helps their propagandists. The Zionists are the modern day Nazi's; a bloodcurdling insult to the victims of the holocaust .
I myself think the way the Israeli government behave towards the Palestinian people is an insult to the victims of the Holocaust but as soon as you start calling Israelis Nazis it is a disaster for the advancement of the Palestinian cause internationally, it is easy for Israel to frame such language as anti-Semitic - this is Israel's meat and drink in terms of neutralising opposition

Even the term anti-Semitic has been misappropriated; the Zionist strategy of propaganda manipulation is on par with Goebbels, the Palestinian Arabs are a Semitic people; its the Zionists who are anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic has been wrongly framed as "Jew-hater" and in turn used to smear and traduce pacifists and good men such as Corbyn, its a barbaric ideology in its current guise.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on May 18, 2021, 11:52:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 10:42:58 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 18, 2021, 10:38:18 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 08:54:18 AM
I wouldn't be up to knowledge of the conflict in the middle east and briefly look at the headlines and watch the odd documentary on it.

How is Hamas and Fata looked at be their own citizens? I take it there are local democratic elections and these political groups are voted in every year, are there opposing political leaders with a different approach?

A lot like political groups everywhere. Some like them. Some don't. Hamas in particular get a lot of dislike from Gazans.

But its two main groupings? Fatas and Hamas?

Its a horrible war and only the introduction of Russia and the US peace talks will solve it as no one else will be listened too. They won't solve it themselves at this rate

Hamas have de facto control of Gaza. The PA are in the West Bank.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:02:28 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 11:42:59 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:30:33 AM
This passage is contained in "Flat Earth News" by Nick Davies (2008)

...the most potent electric fence in the world is the one erected on behalf of the Israeli government...journalists who write stories which offend the politics of the Israeli lobby are subjected to a campaign of formal complaints and pressure on their editors; most of all, they are inundated with letters and emails which can be extravagant in their hostility...there is now a network of pro-Israel pressure groups who specialise in orchestrating complaints against the media. HonestReporting has offices in London, New York and Toronto and claims to have 140,000 members on whom it can call to drench media organisations in letters and emails (he goes on to describe many more pro-Israel pressure groups)...the result is that some facts become too dangerous: to report Palestinian casualties; to depict the Palestinians as victims of Israeli occupation; to refer to the historic ousting of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes; to refer to the killing of Palestinian civilians by Zionist groups in the 1940s...words become dangerous: to speak of 'occupied territories'; to describe Palestinian bombers as anything other than 'terrorists'; to reject the Israeli government euphemism of 'targeted killings'. Crucially, there is no lobby of similar force on the Palestinian side.
I think things have changed somewhat since 2008. Jimmy Carter was excoriated for his book "Peace or Apartheid" because he dared to call the occupation apartheid.
Now they even use the word on MSNBC. Israeli spokespeople are seen as hysterical/groupthinking.

Netanyahu's strategy of reaching out to countries like Sudan (which needed to regain access to international markets) and the UAE while ignoring the Palestinians has failed. The future of Israel is very unclear.

I don't think things have changed at all

Ursula von der Leyen's tweet last week is proof of that

The treatment of Corbyn is proof of that

The Biden administration in the US carries the hope of some progressive change domestically and internationally but Israel is the one area where they carry no hope whatsoever of any sort of progressive change

Israel has the power, and that's all it cares about

The international community - in terms of where power lies - operates on the basis that it must never touch the electric fence of offending Israel in any way

I think things are worse than in 2008 to be honest
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 12:04:32 PM
Antisemitism refers to  when Jews are weak and vulnerable. Eg beating up a rabbi in London on Sunday. That's antisemitic.
Criticising Israel's savagery has nothing to do with antisemitism.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tiempo on May 18, 2021, 12:06:35 PM
The most telling quote of all and very much still the mentality

Everybody has to move, run and grab as many [Palestinian] hilltops as they can to enlarge the [Jewish] settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them.

Ariel Sharon
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tiempo on May 18, 2021, 12:12:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 12:04:32 PM
Antisemitism refers to  when Jews are weak and vulnerable. Eg beating up a rabbi in London on Sunday. That's antisemitic.
Criticising Israel's savagery has nothing to do with antisemitism.

Jews aren't the only Semites. Beating up an Imam in London is equally anti-Semitic, but the misappropriation and need to feed the propaganda machine and peoples general ignorance is priority from a Zionist pov.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Stuff like this needs to be highlighted much more because it's an easy rebuttal to those who talk about Israel supposedly wanting peace or supposedly wanting a two state solution - they don't

Netanyahu speaking in 2014:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz392DqMJCW

QuoteHe made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank. He indicated that he sees Israel standing almost alone on the frontlines against vicious Islamic radicalism, while the rest of the as-yet free world does its best not to notice the march of extremism. And he more than intimated that he considers the current American, John Kerry-led diplomatic team to be, let's be polite, naive.

QuoteNetanyahu has stressed often in the past that he doesn't want Israel to become a binational state — implying that he favors some kind of accommodation with and separation from the Palestinians. But on Friday he made explicit that this could not extend to full Palestinian sovereignty. Why? Because, given the march of Islamic extremism across the Middle East, he said, Israel simply cannot afford to give up control over the territory immediately to its east, including the eastern border — that is, the border between Israel and Jordan, and the West Bank and Jordan.

QuoteThe priority right now, Netanyahu stressed, was to "take care of Hamas." But the wider lesson of the current escalation was that Israel had to ensure that "we don't get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria." Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:20:18 PM
Hamas itself was at least partly a creation of Israel itself, they funded it as an attempt at divide and rule

This is never brought up internationally

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Quote"Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a "counterweight" to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as "a creature of Israel.")

"The Israeli government gave me a budget," the retired brigadier general confessed, "and the military government gives to the mosques."

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. "I ... suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face," he wrote."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tiempo on May 18, 2021, 12:22:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Stuff like this needs to be highlighted much more because it's an easy rebuttal to those who talk about Israel supposedly wanting peace or supposedly wanting a two state solution - they don't

Netanyahu speaking in 2014:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/#ixzz392DqMJCW

QuoteHe made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank. He indicated that he sees Israel standing almost alone on the frontlines against vicious Islamic radicalism, while the rest of the as-yet free world does its best not to notice the march of extremism. And he more than intimated that he considers the current American, John Kerry-led diplomatic team to be, let's be polite, naive.

QuoteNetanyahu has stressed often in the past that he doesn't want Israel to become a binational state — implying that he favors some kind of accommodation with and separation from the Palestinians. But on Friday he made explicit that this could not extend to full Palestinian sovereignty. Why? Because, given the march of Islamic extremism across the Middle East, he said, Israel simply cannot afford to give up control over the territory immediately to its east, including the eastern border — that is, the border between Israel and Jordan, and the West Bank and Jordan.

QuoteThe priority right now, Netanyahu stressed, was to "take care of Hamas." But the wider lesson of the current escalation was that Israel had to ensure that "we don't get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria." Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."

Without a shadow of a doubt they will put out whatever they need to appear conciliatory with every intention of carrying on as before when the ink is dry or the tape stops recording. Netanyahu is beyond untouchable now in terms of his war crimes and he knows it hence he carries on; he knows with his age he only has a few years left operating at this level and he's trying to mete out every last drop of punishment he can, he's trying to secure his legacy as one of the great Zionists.

This is an extermination attempt and a terrible stain on the legacy of the holocaust victims, survivors and peaceful Jews the world over.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:30:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 12:04:32 PM
Antisemitism refers to  when Jews are weak and vulnerable. Eg beating up a rabbi in London on Sunday. That's antisemitic.
Criticising Israel's savagery has nothing to do with antisemitism.
Criticising Israel's savagery has nothing to do with anti-Semitism but there are too many people commenting online who are ignorant of the framework through which this must be done and veer into either dodgy linguistic territory, or outright anti-Semitism

There was a now deleted post on this forum last week which did that in the worst way possible, Israel loves opinions like that, it highlights them and tars the entire Palestinian cause as extremist, the video from London on Sunday was a disaster in that regard

Those who support the Palestinian cause for good reasons - and they are the overwhelming majority - have to be aware that there are genuine anti-Semites out there who like to hop on the bandwagon when it suits them

These anti-Semitic bandwagon hoppers do immense harm to the Palestinian cause

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: whitey on May 18, 2021, 12:32:35 PM
Could be a lot of infighting in the Democratic Caucus

Popular, vocal and powerful members of "The Squad" are very pro Palestinian whereas the establishment wing of the party are much more friendly to Israel
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 18, 2021, 02:05:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 18, 2021, 10:46:30 AM
The U.S. could help by ending the non stop 100% support of the rogue State of Israel.
Biden won't even call for a truce ffs!
The EU need to pull all their Ambasdadors out of Israel, shut the Israeli embassies and cease all trade or other dealings with them.

So what are factors that keep the US out of Israel and not other countries? Would the current and previous governments lose elections over this and that's why continue to 'turn an blind eye' ?

Is there a wealthy benefactor that has a huge say in the politics of Israel? 

How governments with some sort of influence and not get involved is very telling.

Historically (at least in the second half of the 20thC), the Jewish vote was influential, and a lot of that block went Democrat.  And, for obvious historical reasons, Israel was important to that demographic.

Things have changed, as the Jewish vote seems to have receded in importance to the Democratic party (a reflection of the increasing amount of immigration from non-Jewish populations, and of young Democratic voters tending to be more willing to question support for Israel).

On the Republican side, AIPAC is a large pro-Israel donor group, with people like the recently deceased  billionaire Sheldon Adelson (who described himself as a single-issue voter, with Israel being that issue).

Increasingly though, the main support for Israel is from evangelical voters, who think that Jesus will only return if Jerusalem is in Jewish hands.  And no, this last bit isn't a joke:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/)
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J70 on May 18, 2021, 02:06:57 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 18, 2021, 12:32:35 PM
Could be a lot of infighting in the Democratic Caucus

Popular, vocal and powerful members of "The Squad" are very pro Palestinian whereas the establishment wing of the party are much more friendly to Israel

Its time the US started coming to its senses on Israel.

It has to start somewhere (which will NOT be on the right). Andrew Yang got his wings clipped last week on this in the NYC mayoral election campaign. Bob Menendez, a long time pro-Israel senator, criticized Netanyahu over the weekend. Chuck Schumer is VERY pro-Israel, but he could have a fight on his hands for his Senate seat next year with this a potential issue, especially if AOC decides its time to move up.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: J70 on May 18, 2021, 02:10:29 PM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 18, 2021, 02:05:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 18, 2021, 10:46:30 AM
The U.S. could help by ending the non stop 100% support of the rogue State of Israel.
Biden won't even call for a truce ffs!
The EU need to pull all their Ambasdadors out of Israel, shut the Israeli embassies and cease all trade or other dealings with them.

So what are factors that keep the US out of Israel and not other countries? Would the current and previous governments lose elections over this and that's why continue to 'turn an blind eye' ?

Is there a wealthy benefactor that has a huge say in the politics of Israel? 

How governments with some sort of influence and not get involved is very telling.

Historically (at least in the second half of the 20thC), the Jewish vote was influential, and a lot of that block went Democrat.  And, for obvious historical reasons, Israel was important to that demographic.

Things have changed, as the Jewish vote seems to have receded in importance to the Democratic party (a reflection of the increasing amount of immigration from non-Jewish populations, and of young Democratic voters tending to be more willing to question support for Israel).

On the Republican side, AIPAC is a large pro-Israel donor group, with people like the recently deceased  billionaire Sheldon Adelson (who described himself as a single-issue voter, with Israel being that issue).

Increasingly though, the main support for Israel is from evangelical voters, who think that Jesus will only return if Jerusalem is in Jewish hands.  And no, this last bit isn't a joke:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/)

Its amazing how many issues there are where you might need to say "this is not a joke" when it comes to the religious wing of the Republican Party.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on May 18, 2021, 02:17:40 PM
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 03:38:28 PM
The effects of the Famine lasted several generations in Ireland. Israel is a case of collective Holocaust trauma.
This drives the violence.  This paper is worth a read if you have the time.

https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/701010
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 03:38:28 PM
The effects of the Famine lasted several generations in Ireland. Israel is a case of collective Holocaust trauma.
This drives the violence.  This paper is worth a read if you have the time.

https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/701010

I dont think Ireland spent those generations creating Ghettos, stealing lands and indiscriminately blowing civilians to pieces. There are evil forces in Israel that are using the holocaust to further their own goals. Its is disgusting that a people so wronged could turn around and do the same thing to another people, a people who were victims of vile propaganda and now using that propaganda style to demonise Palestinians, and to justify horrendous war crimes. Goebbels would be impressed if he was here to see it. It is also disgusting that the UN (especially the Americans) learn nothing from the history of WW2 and fail to act against such a heinous regime as Israel.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on May 18, 2021, 04:23:40 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 03:38:28 PM
The effects of the Famine lasted several generations in Ireland. Israel is a case of collective Holocaust trauma.
This drives the violence.  This paper is worth a read if you have the time.

https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/701010

I dont think Ireland spent those generations creating Ghettos, stealing lands and indiscriminately blowing civilians to pieces. There are evil forces in Israel that are using the holocaust to further their own goals. Its is disgusting that a people so wronged could turn around and do the same thing to another people, a people who were victims of vile propaganda and now using that propaganda style to demonise Palestinians, and to justify horrendous war crimes. Goebbels would be impressed if he was here to see it. It is also disgusting that the UN (especially the Americans) learn nothing from the history of WW2 and fail to act against such a heinous regime as Israel.

The West are very adept in driving a propaganda campaign against Russia but like to turn a blind eye to what their Zionist buddies get up to in Israel.

You see all the hysteria about Trump, all those American presidents - they're all the same - vultures. Biden should hang is head in shame.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 05:30:04 PM
Russia currently occupies parts of three sovereign countries.

Russia is in no way a victim of any propaganda campaign, it is a dangerous, rotten, colonialist state, just like Israel is.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on May 18, 2021, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 05:30:04 PM
Russia currently occupies parts of three sovereign countries.

Russia is in no way a victim of any propaganda campaign, it is a dangerous, rotten, colonialist state, just like Israel is.

Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq off the top of my head.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on May 18, 2021, 06:49:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 12:30:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 12:04:32 PM
Antisemitism refers to  when Jews are weak and vulnerable. Eg beating up a rabbi in London on Sunday. That's antisemitic.
Criticising Israel's savagery has nothing to do with antisemitism.
Criticising Israel's savagery has nothing to do with anti-Semitism but there are too many people commenting online who are ignorant of the framework through which this must be done and veer into either dodgy linguistic territory, or outright anti-Semitism

There was a now deleted post on this forum last week which did that in the worst way possible, Israel loves opinions like that, it highlights them and tars the entire Palestinian cause as extremist, the video from London on Sunday was a disaster in that regard

Those who support the Palestinian cause for good reasons - and they are the overwhelming majority - have to be aware that there are genuine anti-Semites out there who like to hop on the bandwagon when it suits them

These anti-Semitic bandwagon hoppers do immense harm to the Palestinian cause

I was at a protest march in San Francisco during the last offensive against Gaza in 2014. The protestors were very careful to include Jews who oppose zionism on religious grounds. Still, the protest got negative coverage in the local press. There were thousands of people at it, but it was reported as "hundreds of protestors," and described as "blocking traffic." They said it was "mostly peaceful until" someone had a debate at the side of the street and voices got slightly raised. Getting good press for the Palestinian cause is almost impossible here. You never hear the term "occupied territories" like I used to hear all the time in UK and Irish media, and you certainly never hear about settlements or evictions. Coverage doesn't start until the Hamas rockets start flying.

Unquestioning support and almost declaring allegiance to Israel is still a requirement for anyone running for high office in the states, but it is shifting. Candidates like AOC who don't rely on big corporate donors, are immune to lobbyists, and can short-circuit the money-in-politics problem, are a bit more free to speak their minds. It's just a shame that there's so few of them for now.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 06:52:55 PM
Some people think America is a democracy, what idiots.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 07:20:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 06:52:55 PM
Some people think America is a democracy, what idiots.
Much as the Republicans desperately desire otherwise, America is still a democracy

And to say otherwise makes you an idiot
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 07:20:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 06:52:55 PM
Some people think America is a democracy, what idiots.
Much as the Republicans desperately desire otherwise, America is still a democracy

And to say otherwise makes you an idiot
A very weak democracy.
If Biden/Harris lose the next election all bets are off.

We are in Gatsby time again

"They were careless people, Tom and Daisy- they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made." F Scott Fitzgerald
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 08:05:03 PM
Can someone remind me how to put a poster on ignore, I did it before but can't find the button now.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 03:38:28 PM
The effects of the Famine lasted several generations in Ireland. Israel is a case of collective Holocaust trauma.
This drives the violence.  This paper is worth a read if you have the time.

https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/701010

I dont think Ireland spent those generations creating Ghettos, stealing lands and indiscriminately blowing civilians to pieces. There are evil forces in Israel that are using the holocaust to further their own goals. Its is disgusting that a people so wronged could turn around and do the same thing to another people, a people who were victims of vile propaganda and now using that propaganda style to demonise Palestinians, and to justify horrendous war crimes. Goebbels would be impressed if he was here to see it. It is also disgusting that the UN (especially the Americans) learn nothing from the history of WW2 and fail to act against such a heinous regime as Israel.
There was a lot of drinking. Plus shunting women into institutions.
Israel is obviously worse but trauma make people do awful things.
Israel will never be a normal country.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 08:41:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 03:38:28 PM
The effects of the Famine lasted several generations in Ireland. Israel is a case of collective Holocaust trauma.
This drives the violence.  This paper is worth a read if you have the time.

https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/701010

I dont think Ireland spent those generations creating Ghettos, stealing lands and indiscriminately blowing civilians to pieces. There are evil forces in Israel that are using the holocaust to further their own goals. Its is disgusting that a people so wronged could turn around and do the same thing to another people, a people who were victims of vile propaganda and now using that propaganda style to demonise Palestinians, and to justify horrendous war crimes. Goebbels would be impressed if he was here to see it. It is also disgusting that the UN (especially the Americans) learn nothing from the history of WW2 and fail to act against such a heinous regime as Israel.
There was a lot of drinking. Plus shunting women into institutions.
Israel is obviously worse but trauma make people do awful things.
Israel will never be a normal country.

Ah ffs Seafood would you atop that rubbish. Famine (I prefer genocide) had nothing to do with shunting women into anything, that was the Catholic Church, not some "trauma"
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 09:01:10 PM
Re the US I like this quote

Benjamin Franklin, who reportedly said when asked what kind of government the founders had created: "A republic — if you can keep it."
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 10:41:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 07:20:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 06:52:55 PM
Some people think America is a democracy, what idiots.
Much as the Republicans desperately desire otherwise, America is still a democracy

And to say otherwise makes you an idiot
A very weak democracy.
If Biden/Harris lose the next election all bets are off.

We are in Gatsby time again

"They were careless people, Tom and Daisy- they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made." F Scott Fitzgerald
Oh there's no doubt it's a weakening democracy because one party is nakedly anti-democracy

That's not in doubt

But as of the latest elections, the US was still able to vote out the despot
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 10:43:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 08:41:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 03:38:28 PM
The effects of the Famine lasted several generations in Ireland. Israel is a case of collective Holocaust trauma.
This drives the violence.  This paper is worth a read if you have the time.

https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/701010

I dont think Ireland spent those generations creating Ghettos, stealing lands and indiscriminately blowing civilians to pieces. There are evil forces in Israel that are using the holocaust to further their own goals. Its is disgusting that a people so wronged could turn around and do the same thing to another people, a people who were victims of vile propaganda and now using that propaganda style to demonise Palestinians, and to justify horrendous war crimes. Goebbels would be impressed if he was here to see it. It is also disgusting that the UN (especially the Americans) learn nothing from the history of WW2 and fail to act against such a heinous regime as Israel.
There was a lot of drinking. Plus shunting women into institutions.
Israel is obviously worse but trauma make people do awful things.
Israel will never be a normal country.

Ah ffs Seafood would you atop that rubbish. Famine (I prefer genocide) had nothing to do with shunting women into anything, that was the Catholic Church, not some "trauma"
The Irish Famine was not a genocide

Historical accuracy is important because if historical accuracy is deemed to not be important, that's the road to tyranny and genocide

I think I sense a pattern here with this poster
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: BennyCake on May 18, 2021, 11:18:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 10:43:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 08:41:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 03:38:28 PM
The effects of the Famine lasted several generations in Ireland. Israel is a case of collective Holocaust trauma.
This drives the violence.  This paper is worth a read if you have the time.

https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/701010

I dont think Ireland spent those generations creating Ghettos, stealing lands and indiscriminately blowing civilians to pieces. There are evil forces in Israel that are using the holocaust to further their own goals. Its is disgusting that a people so wronged could turn around and do the same thing to another people, a people who were victims of vile propaganda and now using that propaganda style to demonise Palestinians, and to justify horrendous war crimes. Goebbels would be impressed if he was here to see it. It is also disgusting that the UN (especially the Americans) learn nothing from the history of WW2 and fail to act against such a heinous regime as Israel.
There was a lot of drinking. Plus shunting women into institutions.
Israel is obviously worse but trauma make people do awful things.
Israel will never be a normal country.

Ah ffs Seafood would you atop that rubbish. Famine (I prefer genocide) had nothing to do with shunting women into anything, that was the Catholic Church, not some "trauma"
The Irish Famine was not a genocide

Historical accuracy is important because if historical accuracy is deemed to not be important, that's the road to tyranny and genocide

I think I sense a pattern here with this poster

I believe the British reaction, or lack of, to the Irish famine, was most definitely genocide.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:23:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 18, 2021, 11:18:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 10:43:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 08:41:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 18, 2021, 03:38:28 PM
The effects of the Famine lasted several generations in Ireland. Israel is a case of collective Holocaust trauma.
This drives the violence.  This paper is worth a read if you have the time.

https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/701010

I dont think Ireland spent those generations creating Ghettos, stealing lands and indiscriminately blowing civilians to pieces. There are evil forces in Israel that are using the holocaust to further their own goals. Its is disgusting that a people so wronged could turn around and do the same thing to another people, a people who were victims of vile propaganda and now using that propaganda style to demonise Palestinians, and to justify horrendous war crimes. Goebbels would be impressed if he was here to see it. It is also disgusting that the UN (especially the Americans) learn nothing from the history of WW2 and fail to act against such a heinous regime as Israel.
There was a lot of drinking. Plus shunting women into institutions.
Israel is obviously worse but trauma make people do awful things.
Israel will never be a normal country.

Ah ffs Seafood would you atop that rubbish. Famine (I prefer genocide) had nothing to do with shunting women into anything, that was the Catholic Church, not some "trauma"
The Irish Famine was not a genocide

Historical accuracy is important because if historical accuracy is deemed to not be important, that's the road to tyranny and genocide

I think I sense a pattern here with this poster

I believe the British reaction, or lack of, to the Irish famine, was most definitely genocide.
You might believe it but serious historical scholars don't
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 11:27:38 PM
Do yourself a favour Benny, don't engage.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:32:30 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 11:27:38 PM
Do yourself a favour Benny, don't engage.
Keep believing the fiction you want to believe so, no difference between that and cultism

Anyway none of this is related to Palestine

You'd think on a thread on a matter in which one party, Israel, has shown a dogged determination to abuse history, posters might just decide to refrain from their giving us their own version of an abuse of history, but clearly the lessons are not getting through to one or two of them
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 11:49:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:32:30 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 11:27:38 PM
Do yourself a favour Benny, don't engage.
Keep believing the fiction you want to believe so, no difference between that and cultism

Anyway none of this is related to Palestine

You'd think on a thread on a matter in which one party, Israel, has shown a dogged determination to abuse history, posters might just decide to refrain from their giving us their own version of an abuse of history, but clearly the lessons are not getting through to one or two of them

Did you believe the 'ra' were right in their struggle? I've seen posts which you believed they were. Hard to tell with you, you're like the weather
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 19, 2021, 12:22:59 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 11:49:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:32:30 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 11:27:38 PM
Do yourself a favour Benny, don't engage.
Keep believing the fiction you want to believe so, no difference between that and cultism

Anyway none of this is related to Palestine

You'd think on a thread on a matter in which one party, Israel, has shown a dogged determination to abuse history, posters might just decide to refrain from their giving us their own version of an abuse of history, but clearly the lessons are not getting through to one or two of them

Did you believe the 'ra' were right in their struggle? I've seen posts which you believed they were. Hard to tell with you, you're like the weather
Ah shure you're a bit like a typical day of weather up North yourself - fairly dull and a bit windy.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 19, 2021, 08:21:52 AM
For anyone interested...

Go into your profile.  Then Modify Profile, then  Buddies/ignore list. Select the user to ignore and then when they post you can just see "You are ignoring this user...." Its a great function.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on May 19, 2021, 08:26:45 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 07:20:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 06:52:55 PM
Some people think America is a democracy, what idiots.
Much as the Republicans desperately desire otherwise, America is still a democracy

And to say otherwise makes you an idiot

If you need to raise 10's of millions of dollars to even have half a chance in a campaign then I'd question that but the basics of what you say is correct, the reality is that politicians are so easily bought and paid for by groups with vested interests that it's a very flimsy democracy.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 19, 2021, 08:59:34 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 19, 2021, 12:22:59 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 18, 2021, 11:49:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 11:32:30 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 11:27:38 PM
Do yourself a favour Benny, don't engage.
Keep believing the fiction you want to believe so, no difference between that and cultism

Anyway none of this is related to Palestine

You'd think on a thread on a matter in which one party, Israel, has shown a dogged determination to abuse history, posters might just decide to refrain from their giving us their own version of an abuse of history, but clearly the lessons are not getting through to one or two of them

Did you believe the 'ra' were right in their struggle? I've seen posts which you believed they were. Hard to tell with you, you're like the weather
Ah shure you're a bit like a typical day of weather up North yourself - fairly dull and a bit windy.

So you're embarrassed enough I see, I'll leave it at that
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 09:03:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 18, 2021, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 05:30:04 PM
Russia currently occupies parts of three sovereign countries.

Russia is in no way a victim of any propaganda campaign, it is a dangerous, rotten, colonialist state, just like Israel is.

Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq off the top of my head.

If you look at any of these proxy wars between Russia and America, you will generally find Russia are on the right side of it.

But it's the Russians who are the bad guys according to the West.

Right.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 19, 2021, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 09:03:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 18, 2021, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 05:30:04 PM
Russia currently occupies parts of three sovereign countries.

Russia is in no way a victim of any propaganda campaign, it is a dangerous, rotten, colonialist state, just like Israel is.

Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq off the top of my head.

If you look at any of these proxy wars between Russia and America, you will generally find Russia are on the right side of it.

But it's the Russians who are the bad guys according to the West.

Right.

Both bad in my view, most superpowers are, stick China on that list too.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 09:22:12 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 19, 2021, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 09:03:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 18, 2021, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 05:30:04 PM
Russia currently occupies parts of three sovereign countries.

Russia is in no way a victim of any propaganda campaign, it is a dangerous, rotten, colonialist state, just like Israel is.

Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq off the top of my head.

If you look at any of these proxy wars between Russia and America, you will generally find Russia are on the right side of it.

But it's the Russians who are the bad guys according to the West.

Right.

Both bad in my view, most superpowers are, stick China on that list too.

Russia are far less of an evil than the USA who are the root cause of all that's wrong in the Middle East and Central America.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on May 19, 2021, 10:14:12 AM
Quote from: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 09:22:12 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 19, 2021, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 09:03:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 18, 2021, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 05:30:04 PM
Russia currently occupies parts of three sovereign countries.

Russia is in no way a victim of any propaganda campaign, it is a dangerous, rotten, colonialist state, just like Israel is.

Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq off the top of my head.

If you look at any of these proxy wars between Russia and America, you will generally find Russia are on the right side of it.

But it's the Russians who are the bad guys according to the West.

Right.

Both bad in my view, most superpowers are, stick China on that list too.

Russia are far less of an evil than the USA who are the root cause of all that's wrong in the Middle East and Central America.

Central America I give you but the original cause of a lot of the issues in the Middle East are our lovely neighbours the next Island over.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: sid waddell on May 19, 2021, 10:34:21 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 19, 2021, 08:26:45 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 07:20:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 18, 2021, 06:52:55 PM
Some people think America is a democracy, what idiots.
Much as the Republicans desperately desire otherwise, America is still a democracy

And to say otherwise makes you an idiot

If you need to raise 10's of millions of dollars to even have half a chance in a campaign then I'd question that but the basics of what you say is correct, the reality is that politicians are so easily bought and paid for by groups with vested interests that it's a very flimsy democracy.
Actually the chances of a poor person raising the money necessary to run in the US are greater now than they were previously because of small donors and the internet

AOC's model is the future

I think we actually had one poster here advocate for not paying politicians at all rather than paying them well

That would be a good thing - if you only wanted to have already rich people in politics
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 10:39:06 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 19, 2021, 10:14:12 AM
Quote from: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 09:22:12 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 19, 2021, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: Angelo on May 19, 2021, 09:03:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 18, 2021, 06:41:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 18, 2021, 05:30:04 PM
Russia currently occupies parts of three sovereign countries.

Russia is in no way a victim of any propaganda campaign, it is a dangerous, rotten, colonialist state, just like Israel is.

Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq off the top of my head.

If you look at any of these proxy wars between Russia and America, you will generally find Russia are on the right side of it.

But it's the Russians who are the bad guys according to the West.

Right.

Both bad in my view, most superpowers are, stick China on that list too.

Russia are far less of an evil than the USA who are the root cause of all that's wrong in the Middle East and Central America.

Central America I give you but the original cause of a lot of the issues in the Middle East are our lovely neighbours the next Island over.

The original possibly but the US have taken that mantle up over the past 40/50 years and have been a huge cause directly or indirectly in the likes of Al Qaeda and ISIS, by backing them with arms or providing training to their operatives in order to overthrow regimes that were not under their thumb over in the Middle East.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 19, 2021, 02:06:16 PM
Israel is trashing Gaza. Guess who Israel will ask to pay for reconstruction? The EU.
Israel is a parasite.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 19, 2021, 08:49:40 PM
This sis a great speech Bernadette McAliskey gave last Friday night at our solidarity rally in Dungannon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op8K0HJDqoU
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 19, 2021, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 19, 2021, 08:49:40 PM
This sis a great speech Bernadette McAliskey gave last Friday night at our solidarity rally in Dungannon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op8K0HJDqoU
What a wonderful speech. Bernadette McAliskey is so impressive.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Lar Naparka on May 19, 2021, 09:34:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 19, 2021, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 19, 2021, 08:49:40 PM
This sis a great speech Bernadette McAliskey gave last Friday night at our solidarity rally in Dungannon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op8K0HJDqoU
What a wonderful speech. Bernadette McAliskey is so impressive.
+1
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: give her dixie on May 20, 2021, 01:15:36 AM
The son of Donegal, Brendan Boyle, has a large part to play in the supply of weapons being currently used to kill innocent Palestinians in Gaza. 

https://boyle.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/house-passes-boyle-bill-strengthening-us-israel-cooperation-high-tech
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 20, 2021, 04:10:45 AM
https://scheerpost.com/2021/05/03/hedges-dont-be-fooled-by-joe-biden/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

The grinding machinery of predatory capitalism, and the sadism that defines it, will poison the society as mercilessly under Biden as it did when Donald Trump was conducting his Twitter presidency.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on May 26, 2021, 01:47:04 PM

   https://www.ft.com/content/20741506-d674-4090-a93c-0d308e6bf68a

   Palestinian unity upends Middle East status quo
Violence undermines Israeli assumption that occupation had been accepted
DAVID GARDNER 26 May 2021

May 2021 was a consequential month in the more than a century-long contest between Jews and Arabs over how — or whether — to share the Holy Land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea.

The self-absorption of Israel's politics, sharpened by four inconclusive elections in two years, has been blown apart — less by the 11-day armed conflict with Hamas in Gaza than by Palestinians, including those with Israeli citizenship, uniting in revolt across the entire area under Israel's control.

These events have resurrected the political fortunes of Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's five-term premier, literally hours before it looked as though he would be dethroned.

Longer term, a rightwing-dominated Israeli political elite that assumed it had domesticated Palestinians by colonising their land is confronted with an uprising across Greater Israel, with Arab Israelis making common cause with their brethren under occupation. Having rejected a two-state solution — an independent Palestine alongside Israel — Israel's politicians face having to manage a de facto single state. This has roughly equal Arab and Jewish populations, but with such disparity of rights it is described by critics as an apartheid state.

The idea that the occupation was somehow a settled issue that Palestinians had been forced to accept is over. Israel has never been held accountable for settling the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem after it conquered them in the 1967 six-day war. This month's rebellion may change that.

Israel is now fighting a Palestinian revolt on three fronts: against Hamas, which controls Gaza and fired over 4,000 rockets at Israeli cities and towns during the recent conflict; against Palestinians with Israeli nationality, now in vicious communal strife with their Jewish neighbours; and against Palestinians across the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Netanyahu profits for now from the Gaza clash, the fourth war with Hamas since 2009. Yet he has discarded his diplomatic tools and, with the most powerful military in the region, looks unable to stop a rag-tag army firing outsized pipe bombs from a blockaded enclave.

A new generation of Palestinian activists is emerging within Israel as well as the occupied territories, independent of Fatah, the traditional nationalists, and Islamist Hamas. It has struck a chord internationally. As its leadership emerges, it will demand real elections, which have not been held in the occupied territories since 2006. These would bury a Fatah led by Mahmoud Abbas, the discredited Palestinian leader who has limited powers and has just postponed polls again.

Jerusalem remains the beating heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that no one can ignore. Former US president Donald Trump sought to do so by recognising it as Israel's capital. Provocations in the city and its holy sites by Netanyahu's extremist allies sparked the latest eruption.

It was always hubristic for Netanyahu and Trump to rip off the figleaf of a moribund peace process, under which the incremental dispossession of the Palestinians seemed to advance towards their capitulation. But creeping annexation has not translated into quiescence. The Palestinians have now coalesced on three fronts, as well as in the diaspora. The May 18 general strike of Palestinians in Israel, the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem and, to a degree, in a Gaza devastated by Israeli bombardment, was a significant moment. Some observers say nothing like it has been seen since before the birth of Israel and the 1936 Arab Revolt.

The conversation on Israel-Palestine is changing. In the US, Jewish and Arab voices are saying enough is enough. Trump thought the conflict was about real estate. Netanyahu thought he had changed the region by rallying Arabs against Iran. Both are wrong.

The US under Joe Biden is edging close to retrieving the 2015 nuclear restraint deal Trump tore up. Among Netanyahu's putative Arab allies, Saudi Arabia is seriously engaging with Iran on a modus vivendi, while the pragmatic United Arab Emirates is pulling back from conflicts in the region from Yemen to Libya. Egypt, nominally at peace with Israel since 1979 and heavily dependent on the Gulf since the military coup of 2013, is trying to retrieve its diplomatic lustre by brokering the Gaza ceasefire.

Across the Middle East ostensibly familiar furniture is moving amid the usual focus on tactics rather than long-term strategy. It is astonishing that a diverse Palestinian people has emerged resiliently in the vanguard of this shift. The region's leaders are struggling to keep up, but change may at last be afoot.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on May 26, 2021, 08:59:30 PM
Well done ireland, better late than never...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/coalition-backs-sf-motion-that-building-on-palestinian-land-de-facto-annexation-1.4575239

Now to vote to expel the Israeli Ambassador
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on August 07, 2022, 11:09:33 AM
https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/israeli-airstrike-kills-senior-islamic-jihad-commander-1346731.html

the murder of 6 children makes the 4th paragraph.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 07, 2022, 11:19:36 AM
Israel does this every 2 or 3 years. Gaza is a turkey shoot. They aren't allowed to get weapons which are the equivalent of what Israel has.
Israel is suffering from PTSD that goes back to the Holocaust. There is no way it can heal itself.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on August 07, 2022, 11:29:03 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on August 07, 2022, 11:09:33 AM
https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/israeli-airstrike-kills-senior-islamic-jihad-commander-1346731.html

the murder of 6 children makes the 4th paragraph.
Sadly Palestinian children don't count in the American led world :'(
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on August 07, 2022, 11:40:18 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 07, 2022, 11:29:03 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on August 07, 2022, 11:09:33 AM
https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/israeli-airstrike-kills-senior-islamic-jihad-commander-1346731.html

the murder of 6 children makes the 4th paragraph.
Sadly Palestinian children don't count in the American led world :'(

Indeed and I suppose those Palestinians should seek only peaceful means to defend themselves and their homes. Hold up a few white flags or write some strongly worded letters to the Israeli media.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on August 07, 2022, 12:26:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 07, 2022, 11:29:03 AM
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on August 07, 2022, 11:09:33 AM
https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/israeli-airstrike-kills-senior-islamic-jihad-commander-1346731.html

the murder of 6 children makes the 4th paragraph.
Sadly Palestinian children don't count in the American led world :'(

Shocking, isn't it
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on August 08, 2022, 09:45:59 AM
Horrible scenes. Had there been tension in the area recently? It's like they need to generate these flare ups to justify their aggression

My daughter was in Tel Aviv that night, they had been on a cruise around Croatia and the Greek islands, the cruise finished at Haifa port, most passengers headed to the airport but my daughter and her boyfriend had a cheaper flight out to Milan the next day, well they are lucky it got off the ground as the air raid sounds were going off that night and when they got to the airport that next day their flight was delayed and then eventually the plane had to be rerouted on a different flight path for security purposes..

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 08, 2022, 10:47:32 AM
Palestinians are a majority in Israel plus the Occupied Territories. They have no rights. It's like the North in the 60s except worse. You can't fix a demographic problem with violence.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on August 08, 2022, 11:04:49 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 08, 2022, 10:47:32 AM
Palestinians are a majority in Israel plus the Occupied Territories. They have no rights. It's like the North in the 60s except worse. You can't fix a demographic problem with violence.

Tell that to the Israelies.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on August 08, 2022, 03:54:47 PM
Israel will never change but its political enablers may.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AustinPowers on December 05, 2022, 09:59:18 AM
Even  english fans at the World Cup  support the Palestinians.  There's a couple of videos about with English fans shouting 'free Palestine ' on Israeli TV

Apparently the Israeli media  are generally  being shunned by supporters, and  some taxis/restaurants  in Qatar are refusing to deal with them or take their money
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Armagh18 on December 05, 2022, 10:15:24 AM
Quote from: AustinPowers on December 05, 2022, 09:59:18 AM
Even  english fans at the World Cup  support the Palestinians.  There's a couple of videos about with English fans shouting 'free Palestine ' on Israeli TV

Apparently the Israeli media  are generally  being shunned by supporters, and  some taxis/restaurants  in Qatar are refusing to deal with them or take their money
Seen that, was fairly surprised tbh
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: johnnycool on December 05, 2022, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 05, 2022, 10:15:24 AM
Quote from: AustinPowers on December 05, 2022, 09:59:18 AM
Even  english fans at the World Cup  support the Palestinians.  There's a couple of videos about with English fans shouting 'free Palestine ' on Israeli TV

Apparently the Israeli media  are generally  being shunned by supporters, and  some taxis/restaurants  in Qatar are refusing to deal with them or take their money
Seen that, was fairly surprised tbh

The media in the UK hide this stuff for fear of being labelled as anti-sematic but underneath it all there is a support for Palestinians.

It's no different to how the local media failed to report on over 50% of the speeches at the recent UN assembly in NYC called on the US to lift it's embargo's on Cuba.

Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Itchy on December 05, 2022, 11:19:35 AM
Fair play to the English fans, I've changed my mind on them and now I don't quite want them to get the cruel defeat I dreamed about. A standard defeat will be good enough.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Armagh18 on December 05, 2022, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: Itchy on December 05, 2022, 11:19:35 AM
Fair play to the English fans, I've changed my mind on them and now I don't quite want them to get the cruel defeat I dreamed about. A standard defeat will be good enough.
As a nation I think we should agree a temporary truce with the French over 2009 and unite behind them for the next week
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2022, 11:48:59 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 05, 2022, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 05, 2022, 10:15:24 AM
Quote from: AustinPowers on December 05, 2022, 09:59:18 AM
Even  english fans at the World Cup  support the Palestinians.  There's a couple of videos about with English fans shouting 'free Palestine ' on Israeli TV

Apparently the Israeli media  are generally  being shunned by supporters, and  some taxis/restaurants  in Qatar are refusing to deal with them or take their money
Seen that, was fairly surprised tbh

The media in the UK hide this stuff for fear of being labelled as anti-sematic but underneath it all there is a support for Palestinians.

It's no different to how the local media failed to report on over 50% of the speeches at the recent UN assembly in NYC called on the US to lift it's embargo's on Cuba.

Qatari refuses Israeli interview
https://mobile.twitter.com/United4Pal/status/1594007399727124482

Channel 13
https://mobile.twitter.com/Rehan_Alfarra/status/1595016555456528386
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: AustinPowers on December 05, 2022, 01:33:05 PM
I remember when QATAr were given the World Cup ,  there was talk of  potential problems if Israel qualified ,  as  Qatar doesn't  recognise the state of Israel. 

Apparently  there are flights between Israel and Qatar for the first time  in years, maybe ever , for Israeli tv and media to go there to  cover the tournament. it's only temporary though ,

If anything positive comes out of this tournament, it's the  support for the Palestinian people  shown on a global scale

And fair play to the ordinary Qatari people refusing to speak to Israeli tv or even refuse to serve them, and the fans shouting support for Palestine, even those English fellas (which surprised me).
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2022, 02:41:48 PM
Israelis were really shocked. Netanyahu told them they could have a free occupation.
South african apartheid was the same. Politicians were led by popular disgust against the system.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2022, 03:21:24 PM
https://mondoweiss.net/2022/12/the-world-cup-has-exposed-the-bankruptcy-of-the-abraham-accords/
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: Rossfan on January 26, 2023, 10:47:19 AM
The new Extremist Israeli Government getting away with murder as the West looks away as usual

https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-41057300.html
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on January 26, 2023, 03:00:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 26, 2023, 10:47:19 AM
The new Extremist Israeli Government getting away with murder as the West looks away as usual

https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-41057300.html

Nothing ever changes
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 26, 2023, 03:05:50 PM
Israel is running apartheid.
It didn't work long term for South Africa.
Israel will get its comeuppance.
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: tonto1888 on January 27, 2023, 12:05:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 26, 2023, 03:05:50 PM
Israel is running apartheid.
It didn't work long term for South Africa.
Israel will get its comeuppance.

I think the tide is turning. Very slowly but turning none the less
Title: Re: The Palestine thread
Post by: seafoid on January 28, 2023, 04:35:31 PM
Israelis can't be both victims (they were only coming out of a synagogue..) and predators.
It's a mess.