The Offical Glasgow Celtic thread

[Milltown Row2]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

If you look at most of top 11 best players in any poll of the best players in the EPL, Keane makes the team. 7 titles 4 FA cups and CL.. To say Utd went on to win more titles means nothing, course they did what does that have to do with Keane's ability, if you are going for midfielders then go like for like.

He was better than Viera Seedorf Ballack, Effenberg, the others were ballers and technically better on the ball, as for putting Beckham in there, wise up

[From the Bunker]

This is a Celtic thread. Most here dont care how good or bad a player Keane was.

[Milltown Row2]

This is a Celtic thread. Most here dont care how good or bad a player Keane was.

I thought he was a Celtic legend? won the league and Cup!

[Itchy]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

Have to agree with a lot of what Angelo has said but I think you're undervaluing the leadership Keane provided. He was the one driving that winning culture at united. Teaching the young fellas what it takes and bringing the standards up to a higher level than the teams before him. There is countiess stories from those United players about Keane being the main main and they would have ran through a wall for him. I agree that his footballing ability might not have been the best in the world but his leadership, drive and will to win is what set him apart. This has also proven to be his downfall post playing career as he seems to be frustrated that players don't put the effort into things that he did and then falls out with them all. When he was in decline Fergie made a smart move getting rid of him before he became too much of a disruptive figure.

Questioning Roy Keane as a player. Are you for real?

I think Roy Keane was a brilliant player, although not as good as the likes of Zidane and Scholes. But as I said, it was his competitiveness and leadership that made him so good.

You think Paul Scholes was a better player than Roy Keane? Seriously?

[ned]

As ever, the thread becomes lost in a confetti bomb of posts.
Roy Keane's attributes as a player are in no way a marker for his managerial ability.
Until he becomes Celtic manager (which he won't), this chat brings nothing to the thread.
Take it to the Man U or FAI thread.

[JimStynes]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

Have to agree with a lot of what Angelo has said but I think you're undervaluing the leadership Keane provided. He was the one driving that winning culture at united. Teaching the young fellas what it takes and bringing the standards up to a higher level than the teams before him. There is countiess stories from those United players about Keane being the main main and they would have ran through a wall for him. I agree that his footballing ability might not have been the best in the world but his leadership, drive and will to win is what set him apart. This has also proven to be his downfall post playing career as he seems to be frustrated that players don't put the effort into things that he did and then falls out with them all. When he was in decline Fergie made a smart move getting rid of him before he became too much of a disruptive figure.

Questioning Roy Keane as a player. Are you for real?

I think Roy Keane was a brilliant player, although not as good as the likes of Zidane and Scholes. But as I said, it was his competitiveness and leadership that made him so good.

You think Paul Scholes was a better player than Roy Keane? Seriously?

Different types of players but I would pick Scholes over Keane.

[michaelg]

Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it's worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he's only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He's not the man for Celtic . I'd like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the "small gains" right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the "small gains" right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

If you look at most of top 11 best players in any poll of the best players in the EPL, Keane makes the team. 7 titles 4 FA cups and CL.. To say Utd went on to win more titles means nothing, course they did what does that have to do with Keane's ability, if you are going for midfielders then go like for like.

He was better than Viera Seedorf Ballack, Effenberg, the others were ballers and technically better on the ball, as for putting Beckham in there, wise up

Seedorf was an absolute smasher.  Saw him play for Inter when he was in his pomp vs Lazio when the world's best were playing in Serie A and he was different gravy watching him live. Won 3 Eurpoean Cups with 3 different teams.  Keane was no way better then him.

[Milltown Row2]

I seen Keane live as well, many times. In my eyes Keane was better, it's just opinions though

[JimStynes]

I seen Keane live as well, many times. In my eyes Keane was better, it's just opinions though

Exactly. All about opinions. Imo I'd have Stevie G and Lampard above Keane too. Different type of players though, they were more attacking than Keane.

[In hiding]

Keane was not the most technically gifted footballer of his time but he definitely was one of the most influential.
I saw him play centre half against Juventus on Alen Boksic, who was a star at the time and Keane totally nullified him.
Keane could do lots that other more gifted midfielders could not

[tonto1888]

Go start a Keane thread. Can we not let this get sidetracked ffs

Marsch for the next manager. That's who I would like to see

[sid waddell]

What this thread needs is a list of the top 10 midfielders in the world for every year from 1993 to 2005

13 different lists

The thread really cannot proceed without these lists as it would be based on incomplete information

[Angelo]

Look it is getting sidetracked here.

I'll have the final word as I'm the most qualified here to speak on these matters and then we can move on.

Keane was a very good midfielder but his standing in the game was definitely overstated, a key part in a great team under Ferguson - a bit of a mix internationally and a bit of a mixed bag in the Champions League. Definitely one of the top 5 midfielders in the EPL in his time.

But it was the EPL guys, a lot of you are EPL fanatics. I see it on this thread a lot, as soon as I rightly point out that Everton and West Ham are not big clubs some of you become emotional, very defensive and aggressively attack the poster because you can't dispute the message.

The reality is, Roy Keane played 14 years in the EPL.

There were two English winners in that time and the two EPL winners were by far and away the biggest fluke winners of all time. Liverpool won one on penalties when they should have been spanked 4-0, Man Utd scrambled a couple of jammy goals over the line from set plays in injury time. Bar that no other English club played in a CL final bar Arsenal and Keane had played his last game of football by the time that game had concluded.

In that time period, in terms of CL final appearances it was:

Milan 5 (2)
Juventus 4 (1)
Madrid 3 (3)
Ajax 2 (1)
Bayern 2 (1)
Valencia 2 (0)
Barcelona 2 (1)
Dortmund 1 (1)
Marseille 1 (1)
Porto 1 (1)
Liverpool 1 (1)
Monaco 1 (0)
Arsenal 1 (0)
Leverkusen 1 (0)


So in effect you had:

Spanish winners 4  Spanish finalists 7
Italian winners 3 Italian finalists 9
German winners 2 German finalists 4
English winners 2 English finalists 3
Dutch winners 1 Dutch finalists 2
French winners 1 French finalists 2
Portuguese winner 1 Portuguese finalists 1

Now the EPL was finally beginning to improve in standard when Keane was at the tail end of his career.

It's safe to say that Keane is very romantically viewed on this island and in England. The reality is the standard of English football at the time of his career there was fairly average to be polite. Big money started to come in just as he was leaving and the quality of player and manager entering the league improved dramatically.

Some of you guys are fanatics about English football and fail to look at this objectively but that is conclusive and we should park this debate right here at that.

[Itchy]

I seen Keane live as well, many times. In my eyes Keane was better, it's just opinions though

Exactly. All about opinions. Imo I'd have Stevie G and Lampard above Keane too. Different type of players though, they were more attacking than Keane.

You've lost all credibility there for me writing that nonsense.

[Milltown Row2]

Angelo, I'll have the final word here!!!